1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,440 So Katie, let's say there's a mom and she's listening to us 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,880 and she has a son or a daughter that really believes that they 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:15,200 will be whole if they can be born again out of the body. 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,760 They are into their gender identity. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,360 What do you say to that mom? You and I both know what she's 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,480 already heard. If you do not affirm this, you 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,080 could lose your daughter or your son. 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:32,280 What would you rather have a a dead son or daughter or a live 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,360 trans child? Gender confusion is a symptom. 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,440 When we hear a trans person tell their story, there are a few 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,920 common themes. You'll hear them say there's 12 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:49,000 something wrong with me, I was Born This Way and I need to be a 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:56,280 new person. Welcome to the Fight for Female 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,480 podcast. I am super excited about the 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,360 guest we're hosting today, Christian. 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,840 It is Doctor Katie McCoy. I've tried to get together with 17 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,960 her a couple times in Dallas because she is just such a 18 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:09,720 brilliant mind. And she has written a book that 19 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,120 I want all of you to get your hands on. 20 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,720 It is to be a woman. And more and more that is coming 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,760 into question, like, what does it mean to be a woman? 22 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,320 And she unpacks it with such clarity, with biblical 23 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:23,280 principles. And so we're going to have a 24 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,480 conversation on what it actually means to be a woman. 25 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,640 Welcome, Doctor Katie. Hello Lisa and Christian, thank 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,640 you so much for having me. Well, why did you write this 27 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,320 book? What made you think that you 28 00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:41,800 should tackle this subject? I fell into this topic. 29 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,800 This was not something that I thought I want to set out to 30 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,760 write on all the gender confusion and make a make a big 31 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,040 corner with that. No, not at all. 32 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,520 I fell into it because I had been researching it when I was 33 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,600 teaching in a seminary context and it was like a few fringe 34 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,640 stories. It was a few very strange 35 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,360 stories from parts of our society that was like, man, 36 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,479 isn't that crazy? And the, the one that comes to 37 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:15,760 mind about 10 years ago now, it was a biological male who 38 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,560 identified as a woman who was doing some type of like MMA 39 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:24,080 fighting or boxing against a female. 40 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:29,200 And I, I noted to my students that look at what is done in the 41 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,880 name of equality, where people are now buying tickets to watch 42 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,680 a man physically beat a woman. It shattered her eye socket. 43 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,320 I mean, it was horrific. And at the time we heard about 44 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,720 maybe a few people that identified as transgender. 45 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,960 It was very much on the fringes. Then all of a sudden it 46 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,880 exploded. In the last 10 to 15 years, it 47 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,600 exploded, especially among teen girls and young women. 48 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,240 And so this is something that I hope will serve parents, 49 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,440 especially as they're looking at the world that their children 50 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,560 are growing up in. And I, I don't have kids. 51 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,880 I'm in my upper 30s and I think where are we even living right 52 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,080 now. I from from just when I was in 53 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,920 high school. We are living in such a 54 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:21,120 different culture. We're now very basic aspects of 55 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,320 who God created us to be in his image are considered almost 56 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:30,320 offensive to state or that you are you are taking part in some 57 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:35,440 type of oppressive culture. And so this is hopefully a book 58 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,320 that is going to help people figure out the world that we're 59 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,280 living in. You know, we can't figure out to 60 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,440 go where to go until we figure out where we are. 61 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,000 You, you can't figure out where to to go on a map until you 62 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,760 identify first where you are. And so looking at where we are, 63 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,080 how we got here, the ideas that formed it, and where we go from 64 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,080 here in the cultural moment that we're in. 65 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,880 Wow, that is sounds very important. 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,800 So to begin with, I want you to clarify the difference between 67 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,760 biological sex and gender. Yes, this is such an important 68 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,400 question because historically we always thought of them as the 69 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,000 same thing and and as we can explore in scripture, they are 70 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,680 not one in the same but they are created to be in harmony. 71 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:28,160 So sex refers to your biological sex specifically, not only your 72 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,200 reproductive organs. But at the cellular level. 73 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,600 There are differences between male and female, and those 74 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,960 differences begin at the 8th week in utero and those 75 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,880 differences at 8 weeks in utero produce what we would call 76 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,720 gender stereotypical behaviors. When we're born, we are 77 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:53,040 expressing ourselves our biological sex differences from 78 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,800 the time that we are born. Within 24 hours you can see 79 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:01,480 differences between the behaviors of baby boys and baby 80 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,960 girls. OK, wait, are you serious? 81 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,400 Did you know that we just had a baby boy 24 hours ago? 82 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:12,560 Not me, not me, but my 8th grandchild was born a baby boy. 83 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:14,640 This is the congratulation. Thank you. 84 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,480 This is the first little boy that they've had. 85 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,680 So tell me what one of those differences might. 86 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,000 Because Christian has a little boy, but she's carrying right 87 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,920 now a little girl. So what? 88 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:28,720 What might that difference look like? 89 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:29,760 So. Exciting. 90 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:35,720 OK, so in utero, kid you not, baby girls talk more. 91 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,280 Shouldn't be a big surprise, right? 92 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,960 But they're little jaws. You can see they're little jaws 93 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:42,560 moving. I actually had a dream the other 94 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,400 night she was singing to me and I was like, oh that's so 95 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:45,760 strange. Maybe she is like. 96 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:47,000 La La La La la. I'm. 97 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,040 A girl I can do this. Within here's another one I love 98 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,880 this Within 24 hours after birth, baby girls are more 99 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,920 responsive to hearing the cries of other babies. 100 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:06,560 And so one neuropsychiatrist she called females machines built 101 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,080 for empathy. We. 102 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:14,440 Have this innate capacity to identify with and enter into the 103 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:20,040 emotions of other people. And also that that idea of 104 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,680 women's intuition, there's a neurological foundation to that 105 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,560 as well. This is this is just a family 106 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,280 story, but it kind of it kind of illustrates. 107 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,160 So in my family, I am one of two. 108 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:38,360 I have a younger brother and he is our thoughtful cerebral. 109 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,280 He just finished a doctorate in English literature. 110 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:46,320 You know, he he is our our real thinker in the family. 111 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:51,200 Well, when we were both born. So I'm the extrovert of the two. 112 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,960 But when we got that, that K shot that that they give babies. 113 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,080 A child born in. Their foot, Yeah. 114 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,880 So I apparently put my hands up towards my head like I was 115 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:04,520 distressed. I was distressed. 116 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,520 And I'm expressing I don't like this. 117 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:12,840 My brother started swinging his arms and my dad asked the nurse, 118 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,480 what is he doing? And the nurse goes, well, he's a 119 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:16,840 boy. He's trying to hit me. 120 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,320 So he was, he was trying to protect himself. 121 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,640 You were like trying to express, I just had anxiety that was 122 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:28,240 terrible, that was painful. And then he's like, no way that 123 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,520 direction will punch you. Wow. 124 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:37,160 That that the the higher level of testosterone is present even 125 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,480 in the womb and then right after birth. 126 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:44,360 And then from there babies develop guided and driven by 127 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:49,480 biology, but then shaped and formed by relationship. 128 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,200 And that's where this issue of gender comes in, because gender 129 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:59,880 is how we express our sense of whether we are male or female. 130 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:05,080 And those expressions can vary from different cultures, 131 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,960 different areas in history, but there are still only two. 132 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,960 And so our gender is not only how we express, but our sense of 133 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,520 who we are, that we are a man or a woman. 134 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:23,280 So gender dysphoria is the psychological sense in which 135 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,520 someone's self perception of being a man or a woman is out of 136 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,320 alignment with their biological sex. 137 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,679 And they feel incredibly uncomfortable with that, which 138 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:39,159 it's my understanding that they have now changed the language. 139 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:45,320 So it it used to be gender identity disorder and now it's 140 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,520 just gender dysphoria, like. And gender dysphoria, yeah. 141 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:55,880 So my feelings about it, whereas it used to be there are people 142 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:04,360 that have a incredibly extreme discomfort, not people that 143 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,960 happen to to see something and say, well, maybe I'd be happier 144 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,000 as a girl or maybe I'd be happier as a boy or maybe I'd be 145 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,760 safer or I think I'd like to present that way very different 146 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:21,200 than gender identity disorder. And I've been alarmed by what 147 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:26,080 I'm reading is happening to you mentioned that 10 years ago you 148 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,040 read about a young man who identified as a girl and then 149 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,840 was doing the MMA and beat up a girl. 150 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:38,760 But now it used to be predominantly males that were 151 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,320 having struggles. Now the the women. 152 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:49,920 The number of women who are identifying as men has just 153 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,360 spiked. Skyrocketed, yeah. 154 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,200 Yeah, it used to be almost. It used to be almost. 155 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,520 I mean in comparison non existent compared to the number 156 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,520 of men that were wrestling with that. 157 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,520 Exactly. It's all shifted on its head in 158 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,640 just the last 15 years, and it used to be a fraction of 1% of 159 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,840 biological boys and I. Hope everybody heard that. 160 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:23,400 A fraction of 1%, Yes, Yes. Yes, it it was so rare that 161 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,680 among the professional psychological community, there 162 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:28,520 wasn't even a lot of research about it. 163 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:30,760 You you had to really track that down. 164 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,880 And intersex is also a fracture of 1%, correct? 165 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,880 Am I wrong on that? A fraction of a percent, yes. 166 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,920 Intersex when? Where people are born with both 167 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,080 genitalia and then the doctors would be able to distinguish 168 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,760 like, OK, this seems more like a male or more like a female. 169 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,280 And then they would create, you know, correct the surgery 170 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,120 accordingly. Some people want to say, well, 171 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:02,040 because there are intersex conditions, therefore we can't 172 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,280 say that there's only two sexes. But there is only two sexes, 173 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,040 even an intersex. Intersex. 174 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,160 It's a. Combination, yes. 175 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,440 It's not a combination of 15. It's still 2, yes. 176 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,040 Right. There's no third gamite, there's 177 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,960 no third sex. And, and people really conflate 178 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,280 that, sadly. It's like they kind of hijack A 179 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:31,400 developmental disorder to try to prove an agenda to to make a 180 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,520 transgender very normal. Mm Hmm. 181 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,960 Yeah, that's crazy. OK, so your background is 182 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,840 theology. What, if anything, does 183 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,280 Scripture have to say when people are wrestling with their 184 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,520 gender identity? Is what does Scripture even care 185 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,280 or speak to the idea of changing your gender? 186 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,760 Yes, this is so important to dive into this for so first of 187 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,440 all, we know from that promise in second Peter, one, that God 188 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,320 promised that he gave us everything we need for life and 189 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,720 godliness and that includes everything we need to understand 190 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:14,120 this cultural question. So what we see all the way back 191 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:19,760 in the creation story, Genesis 1 and two, we have two different 192 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:24,240 accounts of the same creation story, and we have those 193 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,920 intentionally. God is, is telling us something 194 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:31,920 through his word in that. So in Genesis 1, we've got the 195 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,880 introduction of human beings and we know that there are two 196 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:36,600 types. There's a male type and there's 197 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,480 a female type. And like other living beings, 198 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:46,680 they are sexually reproducing. And so they are male and female. 199 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:51,160 But unlike all the rest of God's creation, they bear his image. 200 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,760 They have authority over all of creation. 201 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:59,000 They have the same mission to rule and reign over all the 202 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,280 world. So Genesis 1 is telling us, 203 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:07,040 first of all, the biological sex differences, male and female, 204 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,000 and it's telling us how they relate to the rest of God's 205 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,800 creation. They are different and unique. 206 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:19,960 When we move over to Genesis 2, we have a relational frame of 207 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,320 the first creation story and and it's giving us almost 208 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,000 highlighting it with a different nuance. 209 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,920 So even the name of God is different Lisa. 210 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,560 It goes from Elohim in Genesis 1 to Yahweh, his personal name in 211 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:36,680 Genesis 2. And so it's as though the Lord 212 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:39,880 is saying 0 in on this. I'm telling you something about 213 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:45,920 me and all human beings. And with the creation of man and 214 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,680 woman in Genesis 2, we don't have even the same words that we 215 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:52,560 did just a chapter ago. We don't have the words from 216 00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:56,280 male and female. We have the words for man and 217 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:01,560 woman and that is ish for man and ishah for we exactly for 218 00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:04,320 women. So even the the language is 219 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:09,360 saying these two people are related to each other, connected 220 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,680 to each other in in every way like each other, but they're not 221 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:16,360 identical. So what I take from that is 222 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:22,600 Genesis 2 is telling us how we relate in light of our 223 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,840 biological sex, in other words, our gender. 224 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,360 And so here's the genius of the Holy Spirit, who knew that we 225 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,240 were going to have to ask these questions. 226 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:38,400 When you were in Genesis 1, if you were male, then in Genesis 2 227 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,720 you were man, and in Genesis 1, if you were female, then in 228 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,280 Genesis 2 you are woman. And so even though sex and 229 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,440 gender are distinct aspects of who we are as human beings, 230 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,640 they're not divisible aspects. It's not like we can dissect the 231 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,960 part of us that's female or the part of us that is woman from 232 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:05,880 the rest of who we are. We are complex, integrated, 233 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,080 whole beings, all by God's design. 234 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,760 Does God care about our bodies though? 235 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,880 Because this is the argument that I hear all the time, that 236 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,680 we're just spirit, soul, it, it doesn't matter. 237 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:25,000 Does he care about our bodies? Such a fabulous point to stop 238 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,440 and park on that because it's one of the ways that we have 239 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,520 been influenced by our culture. And by that I mean Western 240 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:38,680 culture is to really only value the inner self, the spiritual 241 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,640 self, and devalue the physical self. 242 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,120 And Professor Nancy Pearcy. Yes, I love her. 243 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:46,960 Yes. She's amazing. 244 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,720 She I just immersed myself in her research and that's. 245 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,800 In love to be a woman A. Lot of her material, love thy 246 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,280 body and all that. So it's really come. 247 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,520 It's coming from an ancient Greek idea that your spiritual 248 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,120 self is great. That's the good part of you, 249 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,760 your physical self. It's a necessary evil. 250 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:07,800 Your physical body doesn't matter. 251 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,680 Well, when we take that idea and compare it to what we see in 252 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,200 God's Word, we've got a real clash. 253 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,640 Because not only did God make the physical world, He came to 254 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:24,200 the physical world. He was born as a physical human 255 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,840 being. He physically lived, physically 256 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:32,400 died, physically was raised, He physically ascended, and He is 257 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:37,360 now standing before the Father in his physically redeemed 258 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,720 state. And He did that as our 259 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,320 forerunner. He's going to make us physically 260 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,280 redeemed. Then He's going to physically 261 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,360 come back, physically raise us with Him, and we are going to 262 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,000 live in a new physical heaven and earth. 263 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:57,200 So the future and fullness of what it means to be human 264 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,000 includes a physical body. We can't dismiss it. 265 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:04,160 No. That's so good. 266 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,839 I, I love, I love how you unpack that. 267 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:12,960 And I love how you talked about how you cannot separate woman 268 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,760 from female, that it's integrated, that it is all 269 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,240 connected, that you can't separate and divide out that. 270 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,200 But they're intertwined and they're woven beautifully. 271 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:30,760 And I love the distinction of male and female, but the related 272 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,480 intimate relationship when, when I was reading and I, I learned 273 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,400 that it was ish and ish. Ha, that sounds so similar. 274 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,520 Just like male and female sounds so similar. 275 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,360 And then all of the sudden she has the name Eve. 276 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,120 And, and what did that say to you when you were reading that? 277 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,800 Oh, I need to. I need to sit in that. 278 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,240 Lisa, I've not, I've not pondered that enough. 279 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:01,120 Because Eve, before she's named Eve, before she even has a baby, 280 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:03,520 she's named the mother of all. The living. 281 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,800 Do you know what one of the things I thought about? 282 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,080 Because you see this prediction that there's going to be, 283 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:16,440 there's going to no longer be two people with one heart, two 284 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:21,520 people focus on the same goal. Now all the sudden we see that 285 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,480 the woman's desire is going to be for her husband and he's 286 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,960 going to rule over her. Something has happened. 287 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,160 You know, we see that there's a breakdown between people on the 288 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,360 earth. There's a breakdown between the 289 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,360 woman and the serpent. Like everything starts to have 290 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:39,040 division all the sudden. And when I saw for the first 291 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:44,560 time that the names that her name became about what she was 292 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,440 able to do instead of how she was related to him. 293 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,920 And it was, it was that, that like broke my heart. 294 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,960 I, I know that that sounds crazy, but they went from this 295 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,200 beautiful relationship of male and female to this is what you 296 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,600 will do. It was, and it wasn't a it's, 297 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,160 it's nothing but a beautiful thing to be the mother. 298 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:14,240 So I'm not, but it it shows that there was a breach between male 299 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,000 and female that happened at that point that I hear echoed when he 300 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:24,560 says the woman you put here, the woman you gave me, she gave me 301 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,760 the fruit and I ate. It is almost like Adam is 302 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,920 blaming both God and the woman and the woman is listening to 303 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,400 this conversation for the first time and thanks. 304 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:40,960 The serpent deceived me. I thought something beautiful 305 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,240 was going to happen. And I see now this incredible 306 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:50,400 loss of connection and intimacy, which you and I know that Jesus 307 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,840 came to bring healing and restoration to. 308 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,960 And so I think that even in the trans movement, people are 309 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,160 trying to find healing and restoration, yes, outside of 310 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,640 God. Yes, Amen. 311 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,440 You know when when we when we hear a trans person tell their 312 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,680 story, there, there are a few common themes. 313 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:20,480 You'll hear them say a a few ingredients like there's 314 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,160 something wrong with me. I was Born This Way and I need 315 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,400 to be a new person. Could we ask for a better tee up 316 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,920 for the gospel? How about born again? 317 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,960 Yes. Yes, to say, of course there's 318 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,040 something wrong with you. You were Born This Way. 319 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,960 You need a new life that only your creator can give you. 320 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:49,080 No doctor, no surgeon, no shot, no pill can give you that kind 321 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,680 of life. Hope, peace, inner congruity. 322 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:53,440 Yeah. Yeah. 323 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,520 It's like, again, it's offering the apple to be like God apart 324 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,240 from God to, to recreate yourself in your own image 325 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,640 instead of you know, And I always find it so fascinating. 326 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,800 I, I feel like the Genesis story is the story I visit the most or 327 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:18,080 revisit the most often. Whereas Eve was tempted to be 328 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,120 like God apart from God when she was already like God. 329 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:27,000 Like she didn't even like she did not need to eat from the 330 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,760 knowledge of good and evil because she had the knowledge of 331 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,520 God. She had intimate relationship 332 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,680 with God. And I feel like so many of us, 333 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:39,880 we fall into that same realm of no God, you know, no God. 334 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,080 I can figure this out. I'm going to I'm going to live 335 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,400 in the knowledge of good and evil instead of the intimate 336 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,560 knowledge of God. I'm going to choose the words I 337 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,280 hear on social media instead of the living word of God. 338 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:58,360 As you know, I've, I've found there's such a need and I, I 339 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,520 love the tone that you're bringing this in, Katie. 340 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,440 I, I found that there's such a need. 341 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,720 We have great clarity of people saying it's wrong, You can't 342 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,360 change your gender, it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong. 343 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,920 But what you're bringing in, and what I'm hoping that people will 344 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,320 hear, is there is a longing for more. 345 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,680 Yes. But you're not going to find 346 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,400 your answer in changing your gender or getting married or 347 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,880 whatever it is. But that longing, that longing 348 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,400 that we all have is only found in Christ. 349 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:36,800 And, and I loved how you talked about how, yes, Jesus came in a 350 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,120 body, you know, and so often even, you know, even when you're 351 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:44,720 talking about Jesus getting us, which he totally does, is 352 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,360 because he became us. He became us so we can become 353 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:51,560 him. And so he understands all the 354 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,760 frailty that we don't even know how to express. 355 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,440 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 356 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,440 So I love that. And I think there's something to 357 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,920 be said to the fact that we are not meant to be satisfied or 358 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,960 complete here. There is an eternal longing that 359 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:14,360 saved unsaved trans. Whatever you want to say, we all 360 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:17,800 will feel that to some degree. So coming together over that 361 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,680 longing and and longing together in hope instead of in fear. 362 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,800 But as we mentioned the physical, I know you've shared 363 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,840 on this a little bit. What are, I love the spiritual 364 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,080 side, but what are the actual physical threats and 365 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,760 ramifications for the people that have pursued this route? 366 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,520 Like what is that information that they might not even receive 367 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,800 before they go down that path? Oh I'm so glad you asked that 368 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,560 because sadly some of that information is hard to find. 369 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,720 There are. I'm not overstating it here. 370 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,000 There are a lot of agendas to try to keep that information 371 00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,440 from being broadcast and disseminated to people before 372 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,720 they make potentially life changing decisions. 373 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:09,720 So there's three spheres or levels of so-called gender 374 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,280 transition. And I'm using that kind of with 375 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,040 almost mental air quotes because we can't change our gender. 376 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,480 But I'll I do throughout the book, I'm going to use the 377 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,520 language the way that you'll hear in culture. 378 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,280 So gender transition or gender affirming care. 379 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,000 There's three spheres. The first is social. 380 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:32,640 Social is generally reversible. That's where you change your 381 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,960 haircut. You have a different name, maybe 382 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:39,160 wear makeup, don't wear makeup, change your clothes. 383 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,320 Want to go by different pronouns? 384 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:46,480 Breast binder for a developing breast that that actually can 385 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,480 cause some damage though. But, but overall, at that point, 386 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,320 it's pretty reversible. The trouble is though, once 387 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,200 especially a teenager starts living with that social 388 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,360 transition, it's kind of hard to reverse course because you came 389 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:06,360 out as transgender. Everybody has been relating to 390 00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:09,360 you that way. You've been relating to yourself 391 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,400 according to a different gender. And so once you start the 392 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,000 social, it's a short trip to the hormonal. 393 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,360 The hormonal happens in one of two ways. 394 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:24,080 You can do either or both. You can be taking puberty 395 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:29,120 blockers, which are prescribed to children either at the onset 396 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:35,480 or after puberty, and it halts the normal production of your 397 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,160 hormones. Now, these puberty blockers were 398 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:44,440 not intended to block puberty. They were actually intended to 399 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,840 give people with aggressive forms of hormonal cancer a 400 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,200 fighting chance. It was. 401 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,480 It was created, in other words, to heal. 402 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,280 But like everything in our fallen world, the ingenuity of 403 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,120 human beings can be distorted to cause harm. 404 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,160 And so these puberty blockers are given to children and we 405 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,840 still don't really know the full effects of them. 406 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,880 And it would be decades, wouldn't it, before we would, 407 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,640 because we wouldn't have. We wouldn't have any data on it. 408 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:16,680 No. Yeah. 409 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,560 They're being rushed into it and some of the effects are like 410 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,120 brain swelling, bone density loss. 411 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,240 It it's, it's just really very. Dangerous and medical. 412 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:31,800 Experimentation. On children, yeah. 413 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,200 Yeah, and that's step one. Once you do puberty blockers, 414 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,720 it's all but a foregone conclusion that they, the 415 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,960 person, will progress to cross sex hormones. 416 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,960 And now things get really serious. 417 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:54,400 So if you are a male, you'll take estrogen pills, and if you 418 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,280 are female, you take testosterone shots. 419 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:02,360 And those testosterone shots are about as easy to get as an 420 00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:05,680 antibiotic. They're covered by insurance for 421 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,640 college students. You can go to Planned Parenthood 422 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,520 and get testosterone. Did you hear what Christian 423 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,320 said? She said my ultrasounds are not 424 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,240 covered. Get. 425 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,680 Out does that not reflect our value system? 426 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,920 It certainly does. Oh wow, unbelievable. 427 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,920 So these cross sex hormones have some horrific side effects. 428 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,360 My doctor here in Dallas, I was telling her a little bit about 429 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:36,920 what I was writing on and she said, you know, Katie, when we 430 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,520 see a feminine looking man come to the emergency room with chest 431 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:46,200 pains, we immediately know he's taking estrogen and he has blood 432 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,400 clots. Terrible, right? 433 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,080 And these young people getting blood clots, life threatening 434 00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,400 for women, it'll change the facial structure of their 435 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,000 cheekbones. They get a lower Adam's apple or 436 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,000 voice, changes their muscle tone. 437 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,280 But then it gets also very frightening. 438 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,560 There was a whistleblower. This is not a Christian person, 439 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,000 not a conservative person. And she worked at a clinic in 440 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,840 Saint Louis. And she said, listen, there was 441 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,520 a girl who had to get rushed to the hospital because she was 442 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,240 hemorrhaging. She was hemorrhaging because she 443 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:31,160 was taking testosterone, having penetrative sex as God designed 444 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,200 sex to be between a male and a female. 445 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:39,160 And because the testosterone had thinned her vaginal wall, it 446 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:45,120 tore and she could have died. She could have died from from 447 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,040 bleeding out had she not gotten medical attention. 448 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,560 This is this is just not how our bodies are designed. 449 00:28:53,840 --> 00:29:00,320 Well, and I've questioned whether men can process estrogen 450 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,240 and women can process that much testosterone because as you 451 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,720 would know was two years ago we had the shooting here in 452 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:15,640 Nashville where a woman who was transitioning to a man, so a 453 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,600 trans man went in and shot children and the aggression 454 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,440 level that would happen with testosterone. 455 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,680 I was diagnosed with osteoporosis and they said we 456 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,400 need to get you on a little bit of estradiol, a little bit of 457 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,160 testosterone, a little bit of progesterone. 458 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,600 I'd already gone through menopause and so everything was 459 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,560 basically 0. So I was totally gender fluid. 460 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,840 I was like, you have no gender because you're post you're post 461 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,760 menopausal. You have no estrogen, no 462 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:51,880 testosterone, no progesterone. And they dosed me which too much 463 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,200 testosterone. And Katie, I was like this. 464 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,680 I felt so aggressive, so unhinged. 465 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,160 And they said, well, we only gave you this much, but my body 466 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,040 converted it to almost three times the amount they meant it 467 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,280 to be. And I had to just say do not 468 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,000 give me any testosterone. I had to just go completely off 469 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,720 of it. But thankfully I knew that I was 470 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,120 reacting to what they thought, I thought was a small dose of 471 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:27,080 testosterone. And it was, it was in my system. 472 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,680 And I think it was supposed to only last three months and it 473 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,680 lasted like 6 or seven months. Oh my goodness. 474 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:37,120 And so even with women with the bioidentical hormone 475 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,800 replacement, it is sometimes your body does not know how to 476 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,440 process that. And I don't know if it was 477 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,680 because I was postmenopausal. My body was like, why all of a 478 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,960 sudden we have testosterone? What is going on here? 479 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:56,120 And so, so many of these children or young people having 480 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:01,480 a dosage that was mine was a maintain a female level dosage. 481 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,200 I can't even imagine what happens when you give a woman 482 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:13,320 enough testosterone to make her body create male features, male 483 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:18,080 voice, male health, growth, that the aggression level would be 484 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,080 out. Of control, yes, And they've 485 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,640 not, they've not gone through the male puberty to learn how to 486 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,720 control that. It's all new. 487 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,320 It's all just bam hitting your system. 488 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,400 And I yeah. I thought postpartum was hard 489 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,000 rejecting the hormones. Listen, postpartum can only 490 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,000 imagine compared to menopause and I heard it doesn't. 491 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,640 Stop. Is that correct? 492 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,920 What doesn't stop? Like even after you get off the 493 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,240 hormone blockers, the effects of it will still yes, they'll still 494 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,960 carry on with you and have ramifications. 495 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,520 Is that true? They they say that it's fully 496 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,360 reversible. The the trouble is some of the 497 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,240 side effects may not be fully reversible. 498 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,480 So it it may be that you stop the puberty blockers. 499 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,880 Let's say a girl stops them and she can start her period again. 500 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,200 What we don't know is the long term effects on her bone density 501 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:12,680 health. I was. 502 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,240 Going to say she could be diagnosed with osteoporosis 503 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,240 AT25I mean like they're saying the bone density is so 504 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,680 compromised which would crack teeth. 505 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,840 Cracked teeth, spinal issues, I mean, it's horrific sounding. 506 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,680 Yes so well, of course, I mean you've already hinted that 507 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:39,800 there's an agenda behind this is it I I would I would guess it's 508 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:47,880 multi level #1 money, but most people aren't going to just push 509 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,400 for the money. What else is going on? 510 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,920 What? What if, as you have leaned into 511 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,440 this and pulled back the curtain, what else are you 512 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:02,040 seeing going on, Katie? So over all, we can put the the 513 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,000 big umbrella over all of this is there's the spiritual agenda. 514 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,680 We have to always keep that in mind that Satan hates God. 515 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,720 So Satan hates God's image bearers and he will stop at 516 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,480 nothing to convince them that harming themselves and defying 517 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,400 their creator is the path to freedom. 518 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,400 And that's as old as Genesis 3. With that, though, we are living 519 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,440 in a context of social and political ideas of what it means 520 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,440 to be a happy, whole, fulfilled human being. 521 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:36,440 And we could summarize those like no one has the authority to 522 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,720 tell you who you are. Your feelings are your number 523 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:45,880 one guide and along with that there is from a very extreme 524 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,680 wing of our society that is sadly very influential. 525 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,840 It's the idea that the family, as God designed the family to 526 00:33:54,840 --> 00:34:00,840 be, should be dismantled and replaced, and that replacement 527 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,160 should be replaced with the relationship between the state 528 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,680 and the individual. So anything that would 529 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,480 perpetuate the family. So for instance, pregnancy, 530 00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:17,679 marriage, certainly heterosexuality, all of those 531 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:24,560 things are viewed as a tyranny of the majority, and we have to 532 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,679 get rid of them to make way for what you'll hear called 533 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:34,679 intersectional justice. Now that's all very loaded, and 534 00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:36,199 I talk about that in my book too. 535 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,639 Yeah, it's a very, we, we were talking to somebody earlier 536 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:45,280 about totalitarianism, that the mindset is that anybody that is 537 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,040 not in what you would refer to as a relationship with the state 538 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,040 is the enemy of the state. And therefore, if you are not 539 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,880 bowing down to those parameters, that the greatest thing any of 540 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,080 us could do is to turn those people in to the state to be 541 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,960 punished by the state for the safety of others, which is it's 542 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:11,520 very interesting how much when you're speaking this I, I hear 543 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,800 in your in your voice, in your research, compassion. 544 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,400 I don't want to see young men irreparably. 545 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,160 I don't want to see them dying of strokes. 546 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:26,280 I don't want them to be sold a false bill of goods, that this 547 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,480 is your panacea. Once you become a woman, you'll 548 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,600 be happy forever. We, you know, we know that's not 549 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,360 true. I don't want young girls feeling 550 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,600 that maybe once I'm a man, I'll be safe, you know, or whatever 551 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,880 it is. But we are told repeatedly that 552 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,440 what we are saying is actually hate speech. 553 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:51,120 What we are saying is transphobic homophobe, you know, 554 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,080 or or not even true. I could not like this is the 555 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:02,920 shocking thing is Christians it and I I don't know whether 556 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,440 you've experienced this, but I have found Christians are like 557 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:12,240 no, no, No, title 9 protects it protects everyone and I'm like, 558 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,920 has everybody just like taken their brain out of their head 559 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,120 and put it on the night stand for a while? 560 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,360 Because what what what is going on here? 561 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,800 Like where's are are you not seeing what actually is already 562 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,560 happening? Not this isn't even a 563 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,080 projection. It's already happening yes. 564 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,120 So what has been the backlash you've experienced? 565 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,040 You know, thankfully, I'd like to say my backlash has been 566 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,240 pretty minimal. You get the backlash when, when 567 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:44,640 it's stuff from people that are clearly not believers. 568 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,960 It's just that kind of like, oh, Slough that off when you get 569 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,360 people professing Christ who say you're just too preoccupied with 570 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,360 this or you're finding a way to make everything about this. 571 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,160 And I'm like, no, it's, it's actually that this issue, the 572 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:05,400 gender issue, it's kind of like it's a, a culmination of about a 573 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,040 dozen different issues. And it's just kind of the sphere 574 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,240 where it's all playing out. And you're precisely right, 575 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:19,120 Lisa, we have to be like the sons of Issachar who understood 576 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,080 the times because and, and I would even say, I heard the, the 577 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,360 phrase, you know, not culture warrior, but cultural 578 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,800 missionary. And if we are going to reach 579 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,600 this next generation that has been educated in many ways, 580 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,120 indoctrinated through perhaps public school education, 581 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,720 certainly entertainment and social media, it's a little bit 582 00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:47,880 like going out to a garden and finding it overrun by weeds. 583 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,760 Well, if you want to make something grow in that garden 584 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,280 that's beautiful and healthy and good, you can't just keep 585 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,160 dumping fertilizer on it. You've got to pull up all the 586 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:02,720 weeds and that takes time and and you can't just mow it all 587 00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:04,680 because then you're going to hurt the life that is there, 588 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,280 right? So it takes some, some strategic 589 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:14,000 surgical conversations of painstakingly pulling up weeds. 590 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,520 And those weeds are ideas that are deeply ingrained in the next 591 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,240 generation. I fully believe, Lisa, that 592 00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:25,240 we're going to see a generation of detransitioners because it's 593 00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:27,440 already. Kind of starting on a smaller 594 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,080 scale. It's staggering, their stories. 595 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,560 I think they're going to start winning lawsuits against these 596 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:41,000 doctors that have harmed them. And then, and then there's going 597 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,760 to be the question of who told me what I didn't want to hear 598 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:50,640 when when it was unpopular and inconvenient but true, Who loved 599 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:55,240 me enough to tell me the truth. So Katie, let's say there's a 600 00:38:55,240 --> 00:39:00,760 mom and she's listening to us and she has a son or a daughter 601 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:06,600 that really believes that they will be whole if they can be 602 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,240 born again out of the body. They are into their gender 603 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:13,120 identity. What do you say to that mom? 604 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,160 Because I know you and I both know what she's already heard. 605 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,280 She's heard. If you do not affirm their 606 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,680 gender identity, if you do not go along with this, you could 607 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,320 lose your daughter or your son. And you know, of course, it's 608 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,600 always like, what would you rather have a dead son or 609 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,560 daughter or a live trans child? So what would you say? 610 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,240 And, and I don't know if you, you, you may or may not know 611 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:46,480 this in Australia right now and Melbourne, Australia, if you do 612 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:52,640 not affirm your child's gender identity, you can face 5 to 10 613 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:57,280 years in prison. Oh my goodness, so we have not 614 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,880 heard that one. I was, yeah, I know I was. 615 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,880 I was over there. Last year and I was told that I 616 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,600 could not even pray for anybody that came up to me and said, you 617 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,600 know, if they said, you know, Katie, I'm wrestling with my 618 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:17,680 gender identity, you would not be allowed by the state to pray 619 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,400 with them. You can, you can only affirm, 620 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,720 well, what do you I, I think I'm actually a man. 621 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,400 Well, then you are. I mean, you're, you cannot even 622 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,360 if they bring it to you because I, I kept saying so, but if they 623 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:35,360 come to me right and say, can you, they said you absolutely 624 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:36,840 cannot. They say, well, shut down the 625 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,960 church. So I said, can I pull the 626 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,000 American card? They're like, no, we're telling 627 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,520 you this now. We're taking you out to dinner 628 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,400 and we're telling you this now before you're in service. 629 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,560 But now it's moved to the parental rights in Indiana. 630 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,280 There was a case not long ago where the parents lost their 631 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,000 rights to their child. Their child was taken into 632 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,160 protective care, protective custody because the parents 633 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:09,080 refused to affirm the the child's gender identity. 634 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:14,640 So it's frightening, but I think it's just going to get worse if 635 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,720 we don't start using our voice and somehow give parents their 636 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,640 their power back. So absolutely, they're listening 637 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,840 to you. What do you tell them? 638 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,160 How did they approach this? So let's start with kind of the 639 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,040 big picture and then down to the personal kind of macro to micro. 640 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:38,120 First of all, you hit it that there is this culture of what's 641 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,880 called affirmative care, which says you don't disagree, you 642 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,080 just affirm the child's self perception. 643 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,120 That is relatively new in therapy. 644 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,960 It used to be something called watchful waiting of just don't 645 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,800 try to talk your child out of it. 646 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,080 Don't try to change. Just let the child grow up 647 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,880 naturally and normally and address some underlying issues 648 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,240 that that might be behind this sudden gender confusion. 649 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,200 And that had a success rate of somewhere between 80 and 90%. 650 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,880 Which is a really great success rate. 651 00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:21,120 Amazing, right? It was absolutely staggering. 652 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:26,960 And typically when children hit puberty, they realigned their 653 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,720 self perception with their bodies because puberty is very 654 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,120 clarifying as to whether you are a boy or a girl. 655 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:40,280 But it also demonstrated that generally speaking, in fact, in 656 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:44,360 the vast majority of cases, gender confusion is a symptom 657 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,040 and it's a symptom of something else. 658 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:52,480 And so one of the ways that parents can help their children 659 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:57,080 is even before there's confusion, start planting those 660 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:03,400 seeds early to say, you know, God made you a boy or a girl on 661 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,440 purpose. And you are free to have all the 662 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,080 different interests that you want to have. 663 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,360 You can grow up and be anything you want to be. 664 00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:16,080 And I remember it was apologist Alyssa Childers who said, I tell 665 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,200 my children, your body determines your gender. 666 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,360 Like, that's brilliant. You just, it takes all the 667 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,000 guesswork out. But for the mother who has a 668 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,240 child who's struggling, the first thing she's going to need 669 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:32,400 to do is remove her child from all of the influences that are 670 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,160 feeding into that. Now, that could be public 671 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,440 school. It could be social media. 672 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:38,880 In fact, those two things are big. 673 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,080 It could be a friend. And there was an amazing success 674 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:48,200 story of Christian parents whose daughter said that she was trans 675 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:53,560 and they, they got her back. I mean, they, they, she 676 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:58,200 realigned, she desisted, but they kind of had to treat her 677 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:03,440 like she was part of a cult. And she was because it's very 678 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,520 much indoctrinating your whole perception of the world. 679 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:13,000 And so a lot of the things that a parent will need to do is 680 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,600 removing their child from those influences, finding a counselor 681 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:25,080 that is going to be adhering to scripture and that that's a bit 682 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:25,960 challenging. I was going. 683 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,680 To say that's that seems to be the hard thing because the 684 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,760 counselors are being told to affirm. 685 00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:35,480 Yes. And I, I, I'm very hopeful that 686 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,200 we're going to see a reversal or at least some protective 687 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,880 legislation because, you know, you have this political movement 688 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,440 telling mental health professionals how to do their 689 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:52,000 job, you know, and, and what other, what other issue would we 690 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,960 think that that's reasonable? And so, so there's that. 691 00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,080 But but the second or the third thing is everything that I'm 692 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,800 hearing is to not go along with it. 693 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,760 So for instance, your child might want to be called by a 694 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,560 different name. OK, they want a different like a 695 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:15,880 nickname. But pronouns for a lot of 696 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,840 reasons, I think it's wise and best that we don't do preferred 697 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:24,720 pronouns. It is it is stating to that 698 00:45:24,720 --> 00:45:31,160 person that they have the right, the authority to change 699 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,880 something to fit their desires. And, and let's look at what 700 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:41,840 preferred pronouns are. It's saying that I by my will 701 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:47,000 have decided who I want to be and by my word, I'm going to 702 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,880 make it true. Well, from a worldview 703 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:55,200 perspective, who can create reality by his word and make it 704 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,480 true by his will and by his word? 705 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,760 Who can create reality according to his will and by his word? 706 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,400 God alone. And so I, I kind of from a 707 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,280 worldview perspective, as we're seeing kind of how these pronoun 708 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,520 conversations are working out and it's becoming more and more 709 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,240 about compelled controlled speech. 710 00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:20,840 But I think there's a worldview element too of saying that what 711 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:25,000 people are insisting on is to declare that I want to create 712 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,960 reality. I want to determine the limits 713 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:32,040 of my life and I want to do it according to my will and by my 714 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,720 words. And isn't that going back to 715 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:37,800 Genesis 32? It's the same thing. 716 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,520 It's the same deception, just repackaged with different terms 717 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,200 of technology. Wow, yeah. 718 00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:48,680 It's really good. Is there anything else that you 719 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,560 would like to share with our audience? 720 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:56,840 We, we believe that women are under attack. 721 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:03,120 We believe that in this culture right now and this moment, that 722 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:09,280 the enemy has emasculated the men and emasculated the women. 723 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:15,760 I mean that he's made it this battle of the sexes and that 724 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,920 neither male or female have found themselves at rest with 725 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,360 one another. They find themselves very much 726 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:27,600 grasping with peace and and fighting with one another. 727 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,560 And so our hope with fight for female is that women actually 728 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:36,640 remember, remember who they are. Remember that God created female 729 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:41,200 to multiply and not divide that Remember that God created woman 730 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:45,080 as in all honesty, the very first answer to the very first 731 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,320 problem, which was it's not good for man to be alone. 732 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,160 And that when the feminist culture began to push, push, 733 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,400 push women to act like men, all of a sudden we have that 734 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,560 situation where men are alone again. 735 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:03,000 And we we've lost our way. And we believe that God wants to 736 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,880 bring back the mother's voice back, the feminine voice back, 737 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,760 that protective nurture back that intuition back, you know, 738 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,120 what you even talked about is already evident. 739 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:18,080 That empathy, that ability to respond to the cry and sort of 740 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:24,000 shut down and be afraid. I believe that the biggest way 741 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,520 we can fight is by flourishing it. 742 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,920 If we can flourish in our our female relationships and our 743 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,440 marriages, in our families, that that is how we win. 744 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,360 That we don't win with argument, just persuasive arguments, but 745 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:43,320 that we win by living a life that becomes compelling and 746 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,320 healing. And of course, we know that we 747 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:46,800 can't do that in our own strength. 748 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:52,160 So this is this is the why behind we're even diving in. 749 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,520 You know, I, I, our our mutual friend, Doctor Christina 750 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,120 Crenshaw told me about you and was like, you and Katie need to 751 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,280 know each other. And you were so gracious to send 752 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,640 me your book, and I would love it if you would hold it up so 753 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,080 everybody can see it because yes, to be a woman. 754 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,960 And you know, I hope you understand if you're listening 755 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:18,120 to this, there is so much more, so much more information, so 756 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,880 much more science, so much more data, so much more Scripture 757 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:27,120 supporting what Katie has so graciously shared with us today. 758 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,440 At the end of the day though, Katie and I believe that Jesus 759 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:36,120 is the one who creates male and female, that that woman is our 760 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:41,160 creation name, and that we were meant to be closely related but 761 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,880 not exchanged places with the man. 762 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,360 And I would just love it if you would pray for the audience 763 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,320 before we go, Katie. Yes, I would love to thank you 764 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:56,240 so much, Lisa. Father, thank you for the, the 765 00:49:56,240 --> 00:50:00,320 women warriors that you were raising up all around the world. 766 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,920 But, but especially I believe in our nation and our culture right 767 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,560 now. Lord, we know that even though 768 00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:14,280 all of this is new to us, it is actually not new in the history 769 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,200 of our faith that our our spiritual forefathers and 770 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:23,560 foremothers dealt with the same forms of deception and and they 771 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:28,480 dealt with it in a way that showed the light of Christ that 772 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,800 just shone more brightly in the darkness of our world. 773 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,800 I pray, Father, for the witness of every woman who is listening, 774 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,680 that you would make her strong and full of grace, that you 775 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:47,480 would season our words with the salt of your presence, Your 776 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,440 Spirit. I pray, Lord, that you would 777 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:55,760 make us courageous, that you would make us truly brave, not 778 00:50:55,760 --> 00:51:01,440 to try to assert our strength, but to stand in submission and 779 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:06,720 consecration of who you are and who you have made us to be. 780 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,840 God, thank you for making us female and that like everything 781 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:15,200 else in this world, it is made so that we can reflect You. 782 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,400 We are not the end game for ourselves. 783 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:23,880 You made us to reflect you, the master artist. 784 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:29,400 I pray, Father, that you would give peace to every family in 785 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,320 which there is gender confusion, that you would set them free 786 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,240 from the lies of the evil one. That you would set them free 787 00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:42,000 from the entanglements of ideas that are shaping their sense of 788 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,120 who they are. And Lord, we know that you said 789 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,560 that the truth will set us free and that you are the truth. 790 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,440 I pray that we would see stories of magnificent redemption, of 791 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:57,600 how things that seem too difficult, too far gone, too 792 00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,760 hard to show. That there is nothing too hard 793 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:05,040 for your Holy Spirit and that in your name there still is power, 794 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,280 salvation, redemption and rescue. 795 00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,160 We ask all this in Jesus name, Amen. 796 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,440 What a beautiful prayer, Katie, Thank you so much. 797 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,680 We are going to put a link for how people can stay in touch 798 00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:20,880 with you. They can get a hold of your book 799 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,840 to be a woman. And I just want to thank you and 800 00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:29,960 honor you as a woman of wisdom and a woman of kindness and a 801 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,440 woman of consistency. Thank you for I know you say 802 00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:37,360 you, you fell into this. You didn't expect to find 803 00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,280 yourself here, but I believe that God hand chose you for this 804 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,760 time and I'm so thankful for your life, Katie lady. 805 00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,600 And I know Christian and I have a lot to ponder from what you 806 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,680 shared. And it's it was courageous, but 807 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,560 it was kind. And that is the mixture we're 808 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,840 all going to need right now. Thank you so much, and thank you 809 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,680 both for your witness and your courage in this very public 810 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,520 square, how you're appointing women to Jesus. 811 00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:02,920 Amen.