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Can women be pastors? 
Can women preach? 

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Why are scriptures weaponized 
against women? 

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For so many years that was so 
simple and clear to me until I 

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started to really slowly study 
the texts and say nothing about 

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this. 
Is that clear? 

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As a woman who wants to honor 
God with every portion of my 

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life, you don't want to go 
against Scripture. 

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If you've ever had a Reformed 
person come after you and tell 

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you that a woman preaching is 
the highest form of evil, you 

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don't take it lightly. 
That passage in Timothy is very 

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complicated. 
Yes, if somebody simply reads an

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English translation, says 
therefore you are disobeying 

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blah blah blah, run the other 
way. 

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What is that risk if we don't 
get this right? 

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Welcome to the least of your 
podcast and I cannot even tell 

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you how excited I am to address 
this topic. 

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This is one of the most divisive
and divided issues in the body 

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of Christ. 
And today I'm hosting my friend 

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Preston Sprinkle, who I came 
across his path when he wrote 

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the amazing book People to Be 
Loved. 

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And y'all freaked out back then,
so I don't know if you're going 

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to freak out on me today, but 
this is such an important 

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conversation that we have right 
now. 

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And Preston, you never shy away 
from hard topics. 

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What are we tackling today? 
Oh yeah, I'm trying to get 

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cancelled and it just no matter 
what I do, I can't get 

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cancelled. 
So I'm going to try to get 

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cancelled with this book on 
women in leadership. 

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Women in leadership, Women in 
leadership, Oh my gosh. 

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You mean? 
But if their leaders are going 

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to have to talk. 
They might have to talk. 

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Whoa whoa, it causes problems. 
And for context, I mean I was 

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raised my undergrad and seminary
degrees were from John 

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MacArthur's school masters. 
Go home, go home. 

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Beth Moore So I mean, it was on 
the very far end of the 

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complementarian side of things. 
So that's all I knew, Yes, but 

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I. 
But then you got filled with the

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Holy Spirit. 
Then I got filled. 

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Then I met Lisa Bevere and she 
set me straight. 

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No, no, no. 
You got filled with those before

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I met you. 
I was helping you promote your 

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message. 
Do you remember that? 

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Because I said this message is 
so important because People to 

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Be Loved was one of the first 
time I heard that we need to 

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stop making homosexuality an 
issue. 

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We need to understand it is 
people that need Jesus. 

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Well, and you actually read the 
book. 

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I did. 
The book clearly defends 

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traditional marriage from a 
biblical perspective, responds 

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to push backs and also says 
truth and grace. 

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Like we need to embody the grace
of God, the care of God, the 

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kindness of God towards people 
who haven't experienced that for

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the sake of the gospel, for the 
sake of repentance. 

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And people that didn't read the 
book thought it was like soft on

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sin or no repentance or some 
people even said he affirmed 

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same sex marriage even though 
the book absolutely does not do 

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that. 
So thank you for actually 

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reading the book. 
I would not have reached out to 

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you if I hadn't read it. 
So I do love to read. 

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But this book I haven't read 
yet, but I have I, I, I'm 

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familiar with the content. 
I live the content on a weekly 

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basis. 
So Preston, why? 

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Why would you first of all, go 
on this journey? 

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Because I know how you go on it.
You go on it as neutral as 

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possible as you can. 
You step back. 

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You say I'm going to try to 
remove as much as possible. 

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We all have bias, confirmational
bias, my bias, my personal bias,

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my theological bias, and I'm 
going to just go into the 

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scripture and you said I'm going
to go in on the woman issue. 

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Yes, yes for so, again, raised 
in a very strong complementarian

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context, women could not teach. 
Preach, maybe get near a stage. 

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You know, I mean, that was just 
all I knew. 

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You know, I read First Timothy, 
212 male apostles, blah, blah, 

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blah. 
I'm like, it made sense. 

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But over the years, I started to
get to know a lot of evangelical

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writers and pastors and scholars
who did not agree with that 

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view. 
They love Scripture and they say

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women can teach and preach and 
maybe even be pastors. 

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And so for, for the last 10 or 
15 years, I kind of said this 

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issue is clearly more complex 
and I don't want to just rely on

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what I grew up believing. 
And I want, I want to know what 

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the text says. 
As you know, though, once you 

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start opening the door to the 
ongoing scholarly debate, 

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there's a massive pile of 
literature, there's complex word

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studies or there's a lot of 
issues that take a lot of time 

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to think through from a biblical
standpoint. 

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And so I said, you know what? 
I'm just not going to, I don't 

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have an opinion on this topic. 
And I'm not going to have an 

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opinion until I have time to 
thoroughly study it out. 

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As you know, I'm, I'm just with 
every topic I want to know what 

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does the Bible say? 
I'm, I'm just so deeply 

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entrenched with understanding 
what does the Bible say? 

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Not this denomination, this 
culture, and how do I feel? 

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I I want to know what does the 
Bible say? 

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So a few years ago, I finally 
had time in my schedule to sit 

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down and spend. 
It ended up being a three-year 

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research project just trying to 
understand what does the Bible 

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say about women in leadership? 
So that's what I did and it was.

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Fun. 
Yeah. 

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I mean, you, you're going all 
the way to the deep end with 

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leadership. 
I mean, I'm still hearing from 

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people that women can't preach, 
so I do you. 

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Do you believe there is a 
difference between a woman who 

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preaches and a woman who leads? 
That's a good question. 

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I think preaching is a form of 
leadership, but not every leader

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needs to preach. 
Not every preacher needs to lead

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in other areas. 
I think there's diversity within

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those roles in, in, in the New 
Testament concept. 

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So, so can women teach and teach
or preach? 

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That's a kind of a sub question 
within my study. 

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But I, I am, it is broader in 
the sense of sense of I want to 

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know can women fulfill some, 
many or any leadership role in, 

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in the church? 
Is my overarching question. 

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OK, take us on your journey. 
OK, so it's, if you read the 

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book I write, I wrote the intro 
three years ago when I began my 

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study. 
So in my own introduction, I 

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don't know where I'm going to 
land. 

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I love that. 
And I point out that I'm just, 

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I, I don't have any predisposed 
desire for one view or the 

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other. 
I just, I truly am passionate 

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about understanding what does 
the Bible say? 

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Not whether I like what it says,
but just what does it say? 

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I Over the years I've seen some 
strong complementarian 

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arguments, some strong 
egalitarian arguments, some weak

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ones on both sides. 
And I don't have any anything 

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really invested in needing to 
land on a certain conclusion. 

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I preach in both complimentary 
and egalitarian churches. 

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All my friends are kind of all 
over the map. 

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I there's nothing economically 
riding on me having a position 

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like I don't teach at a 
complementarian seminary, you 

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know, or egalitarian seminary. 
I don't teach at a seminary. 

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I'm not part of a denomination. 
I'm not even, I don't even think

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I'm ordained anymore. 
They might take it away. 

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They might take it. 
Regardless of where I land my 

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nothing is at stake here. 
So objectively I do I I don't 

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have anything riding on needing 
to land on a certain view. 

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So what I do is I just go 
Genesis, Revelation, hitting all

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the major passages. 
I look at Genesis 1 to 3 is a 

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big passage about male female 
relations. 

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And I survey the Old Testament, 
look at how women are used 

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throughout the Old Testament. 
Look at women in the ministry of

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Jesus, women in the ministry of 
Paul, female prophets, Ephesians

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5. 
And then I tackle the kind of 

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the there's three really tough 
passages that seem to exclude 

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women exercising some kind of 
teaching or or authority role in

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the church. 
So of course, first, you know 

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these back in your hand, I'm 
sure First Corinthians. 14. 1st 

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Corinthians 14 women be silent, 
you know, in church and First 

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Timothy 2 is the biggest one. 
Women should not teach or 

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exercise authority is how some 
translations have it over men. 

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So I have a lot. 
I mean, I probably have 80 pages

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on those two chapters alone, so.
You know, one of the things that

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Well, I'm going to tell you 
there are a lot of women out 

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there waiting for this kind of 
book because you know, I'll just

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say this as a woman who wants to
honor God with every portion of 

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my life. 
You don't want to go against 

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scripture. 
You don't want to say what I 

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feel called. 
So therefore I'm going to just 

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do it. 
You want to honor God in and my 

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experience. 
It was so interesting is I've 

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had more pushback from women 
than men. 

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Really. 
I don't want you to surprise. 

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I mean, maybe the men just don't
find me, but but literally never

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wanted to speak to mixed 
audience was always like I feel 

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called to women. 
And I found myself at a 

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particular church that 
celebrated both men and women's 

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voices and our home church that 
we went to, which was new life 

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where Ted had just had his big 
explosion. 

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They, you know, he I mean, we he
just, you know, been removed 

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from leadership And it's the 
spring and I'm at this big 

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church and they said, Hey, can 
you do Sunday morning? 

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And I said, oh, no, no, no, I'm 
not allowed to do Sunday 

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morning. 
Our pastor doesn't allow us to 

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speak on Sunday morning as 
women. 

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And they said, well, I'm not 
your pastor. 

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And this church women speak and 
we want you to speak. 

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And your pastor actually isn't 
even your pastor anymore. 

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There's you're in an interim 
situation. 

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And and Preston, it was the 
worst sermon I've ever done in 

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my life because I'm up there 
sweating, thinking, hearing I 

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suffer a woman not to preach or 
teach or have authority, you 

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know, women beside. 
I mean, I'm like trying to so. 

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You had those passages kind of 
haunting you while you're. 

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Speaking, not just haunting like
yelling in my head because I 

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have torn between honoring God 
and the question of this pastor 

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who says this is my church and 
in my church women have a role 

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and I'm inviting you not to 
lead. 

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I'm not wanting you to do church
discipline, not to exercise 

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authority. 
I want you to serve my body. 

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And then I'm like, what do I do 
with of course, serve like. 

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And so the next time I went back
to that church president, do you

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know that my husband went with 
me and I said, I'm not bringing 

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my Bible And John said, why 
would you not bring your Bible? 

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That's just stupid. 
And I said, because I'm afraid 

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they're asked me to preach. 
And he said, well, I said, if 

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I'm sitting with you, I'll just 
read along with you. 

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And if you're preaching, I know 
what you're going to say. 

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I don't need. 
I don't need, you know, like I. 

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And so he was like, I yeah, 
Lisa, this isn't going to work. 

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And sure enough, I was asked. 
And again, I got up. 

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Sweating was the worst. 
And I bet you killed it. 

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No, I'm getting. 
No, no. 

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There were women that invited me
for the women's conference, said

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they're going to cancel me. 
No, no, because because I was so

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scared, Preston, of dishonouring
God dishonour. 

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I mean, like those are severe 
scriptures. 

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And if you've ever had a 
reformed person come after you 

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and tell you that a woman 
preaching is the highest form of

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evil or the highest form of 
rebellion or whatever, because 

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I've heard all of those things. 
You know, if you've heard those 

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kind of things, you don't take 
it lightly. 

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And so again, I, I think it's 
important that you address those

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topics because I know that maybe
women haven't heard those kind 

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of things to be the extent I 
have, but they've heard it. 

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One thing I would say, and I, 
you know, I've been not telling 

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people my conclusion because I 
want people to follow my 

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journey. 
I want them to enjoy the 

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exegetical journey without 
having this like potential 

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roadblock of, well, he lands 
here. 

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So I don't know. 
I mean, I'm happy to tell you 

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where I end up landing, but I 
will say this wherever, 

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regardless where people 
ultimately land on whether or 

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not women can teach, preach or 
lead, that passage in Timothy is

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very complicated. 
If somebody simply reads an 

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English translation and says 
therefore you are disobeying 

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blah blah, blah, like run the 
other way, that person is not 

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taking the time to actually like
think through study, look up 

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words like they have they they 
like. 

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It is a very complicated 
passage. 

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Now I do think there's. 
Not spirit, You're saying? 

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It's very harsh. 
It's not. 

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They have not gone into the 
spirit of the writing or the. 

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I mean to be quite honest, they 
just haven't done in depth 

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study. 
OK. 

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I mean, even the word translated
authority, often tame, is never 

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used elsewhere in the Bible. 
The entire Bible, Greek Old 

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Testament, Greek New Testament, 
it's only used a few times 

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outside the New Testament. 
So it's whatever that word 

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means. 
Everybody should be very humble 

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in their conclusion because 
we're going on such minimal 

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evidence of what it actually 
means. 

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I do think to let the cat out of
the bag a little bit, based on 

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the evidence we do have about 
how this one Greek word is used 

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00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,120
elsewhere. 
I do think it's referring to a 

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kind of like dominating negative
kind of authority is. 

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That what's happening in the 
Greek churches it. 

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Was certainly, and it was in it 
and Ephesus was a location where

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you did have women given the 
Artemis cult where they had a 

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lot of power and it would have 
been very natural for a woman to

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perhaps abuse that power. 
So I don't think that verse is 

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excluding women from exercising 
godly authority that men can 

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exercise. 
I think there was a particular 

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problem with women at the church
and that's why he addresses them

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and prohibits them from 
exercising this kind of 

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dominating authority over over 
man. 

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So and people, you know, people 
can will disagree with me on 

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that, but at least we can all 
recognize this is you can't just

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00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,400
read this verse and think it 
just the meaning leaps off the 

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pages. 
It is. 

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00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,960
It is complicated so. 
Well, and I think that when 

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something is complicated, it's 
really important we have 

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conversation 100% instead of 
accusation. 

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And that's I think what what 
we've mired down to is this 

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accusation. 
So when you went on this 

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journey, what were some of the 
things that surprised you the 

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00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,680
most? 
Man, so many things. 

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00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,200
I think one of the most 
impactful things I thought I saw

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00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:12,040
throughout my study was 
regardless of the specific 

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question of women in church 
leadership, God was using women 

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00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,680
in in some of the most powerful,
powerful ways to carry out his 

283
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,640
plan of redemption. 
One of my favorite what what 

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00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,800
became one of my favorite 
sections in Scripture is the 

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00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,960
early chapters of Exodus. 
I mean, this is this is a 

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00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,040
turning point in redemptive 
history. 

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00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,560
All the heroes are women at the 
beginning, women I know. 

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00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,760
The two midwives, Miriam, 
Moses's mother, the daughter of 

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00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,200
Pharaoh Zipporah, is apparently 
good with a Flint knife and does

290
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:47,480
some circumstances and stuff 
there. 

291
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:54,560
But women save the day. 
Men are either scared like like 

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00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,640
Moses or they're not existent or
they're the Pharaoh who's 

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00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,040
opposing. 
I mean, it is a it is a 

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00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,440
dichotomy between men and women.
And in a deeply patriarchal 

295
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:10,000
culture, God uses all these 
marginalized women to carry out 

296
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,680
to instigate his plan of 
redemption. 

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00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:17,040
Like that's just mind blowing. 
Now, does that mean women can be

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00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:18,760
olders in a church? 
No, I don't want to draw a 

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00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,200
straight line there. 
We need to be really. 

300
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,359
Careful, we need to add back 
value to women. 100% right. 

301
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,079
Yes, absolutely. 
And you see this all everywhere 

302
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:30,280
in in the Bible. 
You know, men are named for 

303
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,080
every 10 named men, there's only
one named woman. 

304
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,600
So women are mentioned a lot 
less frequently than men. 

305
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,520
And I think a lot of people 
would get, you know, when they 

306
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:39,720
read the Bible, that's kind of 
what they see. 

307
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,880
All this mostly men, you know, 
but men often are doing really 

308
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:50,080
terrible things, even the good 
ones like David, you know, 

309
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,720
adultery and blood on his hands 
and and Moses was a mixed bag, 

310
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:58,200
you know, almost every you know,
Abraham trafficked his wife. 

311
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,600
Twice after after God told him 
his wife was going to have 

312
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:04,440
Isaac. 
It was crazy. 

313
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,840
Yeah, so, so you know, you, you 
have a few men like maybe 

314
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:13,120
Daniel, maybe Samuel. 
And it wasn't unique. 

315
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,120
Right. 
Yeah, yeah, so, so, but most of 

316
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:20,600
the women, while it's a, it's a 
quality quantity thing. 

317
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,360
Well, well, quantity wise, women
are mentioned fewer. 

318
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,720
The quality of the women that 
are mentioned are off the chart.

319
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,960
Abigail. 
I've got a short section of 

320
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:31,840
Abigail. 
She's one of my favorite. 

321
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,040
She's unbelievable, Yeah. 
In fact, one commentator says 

322
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:40,920
her her the description of 
Abigail is so glowing at borders

323
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,720
on being mythical. 
She's wise. 

324
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,280
She what everyone thinks. 
She takes leadership in that 

325
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:48,800
story. 
Takes her portion. 

326
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:50,760
She take. 
Oh my gosh, she's David. 

327
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,240
She's kind, she's wise, she's 
even prophetic. 

328
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,120
She like announces ahead of time
to him that he's going to be 

329
00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:58,480
God's going to establish a 
dynasty through him. 

330
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,280
So, yeah, her then you have, you
know, you know, Hannah and and 

331
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,560
and hold of the prophet and 
Deborah the you know, so the the

332
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,120
quality of women throughout the 
Bible, they often model the 

333
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:15,160
kinds the kind of faithfulness 
and courage that men are failing

334
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:16,880
that we see this everywhere in 
the Gospels. 

335
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,040
Oh my word, people are like, 
well, 12 male apostles and I'm 

336
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:21,640
like, yeah, that's we should 
wrestle with that. 

337
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,840
What does that mean? 
But look at the character of the

338
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,640
12 apostles in the Gospels. 
They screw up way more than 

339
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,840
their succeed in terms of 
faithfulness and in in almost 

340
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,800
every instance when a woman who 
appears in the ministry of 

341
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,280
Jesus, she is modeling the kind 
of courage, faithfulness and and

342
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,440
suffering that Jesus demands 
from his followers. 

343
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,960
So that's again, regardless of 
where you land. 

344
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:51,040
I think that alone that you 
there's this steady theme of 

345
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,920
faithful women in a culture when
they were second class citizens 

346
00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:59,160
that that's mind boy. 
I think it adds credibility not 

347
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,080
only to the Christian faith, but
the many women who are. 

348
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:04,960
Extending God's Kingdom of the 
world today. 

349
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,240
And how important is this 
message right now? 

350
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,440
I was, and I don't know when 
this clip was recorded, but it's

351
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,080
going out right now, where this 
Iman was saying that there was 

352
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:18,160
all these animals and then there
was another animal called woman 

353
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:23,240
and that God made her look human
so that it wouldn't frighten the

354
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,400
male. 
And I was like, what in the 

355
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:30,480
world I was like and people, 
we've got the the progressive 

356
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,280
liberal white women, which I'm 
just going to invest in self 

357
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,200
tanning right now and just going
to go to olive lives. 

358
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,200
But they are over here with 
ridiculous, not even 

359
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:47,600
understanding the oppression of 
these women under a religion 

360
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,040
that has next to no value for 
them. 

361
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,640
And then we've got the 
judeo-christian framework that 

362
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,400
does value. 
And I understand some of the 

363
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,560
Hindu does as well. 
But all right, so I've I've got 

364
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,120
so many women that they just 
kind of want to go. 

365
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:05,600
Can women be pastors? 
Can women preach? 

366
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,560
You know, can women be in 
leadership? 

367
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,160
Why are scriptures weaponized 
against women? 

368
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:17,680
And I think that is what I'm 
hearing you say, is instead of 

369
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,680
saying, yes, you can preach, no,
you can't preach, we kind of go 

370
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,800
to the heart of why are we 
weaponizing scriptures against 

371
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,360
the daughters? 
Yes, I, you know, there could 

372
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:35,560
be, here's I, I think there are 
men and, and women leader 

373
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:42,400
scholars or, or writers or 
whatever that, you know, they 

374
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,960
read the scriptures as honestly 
as they can and they conclude 

375
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,000
that women can't be teachers and
preachers. 

376
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,480
I, I, I know several people in 
that camp and they're kind, 

377
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,960
they're humble, they cheat their
wives and daughters extremely 

378
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,880
well. 
They are just compelled by their

379
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,840
studious attention to the text 
that for very, for whatever 

380
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,640
reason, you know, God is 
designed men to fill these 

381
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,680
roles. 
And you know, I, I, I, I, I 

382
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,280
respect that. 
I, I don't land there 

383
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,440
exegetically, but I, I can 
respect somebody whose 

384
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,520
intentions are. 
I just want to understand what 

385
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,920
the Bible says. 
And here's where I land. 

386
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:30,440
There's another camp that it's 
hard to ascribe intentions, but 

387
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:37,080
the sense I get is you really, 
really want the Bible to exclude

388
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,400
women from all areas of 
teaching, preaching, leadership,

389
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,680
and even if the Bible disagree, 
like you, you. 

390
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,840
You've already decided you've. 
Already. 

391
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,000
And you can see it in your life.
You can see it in the way you 

392
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,600
treat women. 
You can see it in the way you 

393
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,240
talk about women. 
And that's a whole, you know, 

394
00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:01,480
they so, so that's kind of two 
kinds of, for lack of better 

395
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,280
terms, complimentarians out 
there. 

396
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:05,600
So, and I do think there's 
complimentarians that are 

397
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,440
exactly what you said, that they
have a high view of Scripture 

398
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,400
and they believe that that is 
what Scripture is saying. 

399
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,320
And they, but they also have a 
high view of women and they love

400
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,520
women and they honor their wives
and they honor their daughters. 

401
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,920
And then you have the ones that 
say they have a high view of 

402
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,840
Scripture, but they don't have a
high view of women. 

403
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:32,760
And so they do weaponize it. 
I saw this and I wish I could 

404
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,160
remember his name. 
I saw this Bible teacher very 

405
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:42,840
kindly share that it's almost 
exactly what you said that there

406
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,320
are people that disagree with 
him that are very complimentary 

407
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,720
and and people that he loves and
have relationship with and 

408
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,120
respect. 
I much respect. 

409
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:56,520
But he said I personally feel 
like women have contribution and

410
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,640
he said, so we do have women, 
women voices and we do have 

411
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:01,560
women in different pastoral 
roles. 

412
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,960
And Preston, what surprised me 
was the vitriol that came back 

413
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,760
to him in the in the comments. 
You know, I unfollow. 

414
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,320
Yeah, I used to this and now 
that. 

415
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,000
And that's a basic conclusion 
that should not be. 

416
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:23,960
He was so respectful and the 
reaction almost, and this may be

417
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:29,200
an overstatement, but it borders
on like a demonic response where

418
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,080
people are so mad when they're 
typing, they're misspelling, you

419
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,480
know, I mean, I can misspell 
when I when I don't have my 

420
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,800
reading glasses on. 
But I mean, these people, they 

421
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,360
couldn't get their hands were 
trembling. 

422
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:42,280
They were like, Oh my gosh, 
another one bites that. 

423
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,680
I mean they are so impassioned 
and angry with. 

424
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:48,920
This. 
Are you saying this is what I 

425
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,440
have to look forward to? 
Oh, you're going to definitely 

426
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,080
get it, but I don't know, I 
think you might unfollow all the

427
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,040
people that disagree with you. 
So again, I've got some people 

428
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,000
saying preaching God's word 
online, you know, And so that 

429
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,360
becomes this thing where I, I, 
when I was studying, I thought, 

430
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:11,520
when did the pulpit happen? 
Because pretty much podcasts is 

431
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,320
a pulpit, pretty much social 
media is a pulpit. 

432
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,120
So some of the critics that 
would say women are allowed to 

433
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:23,160
preach, females that would even 
say that are on the pulpit of 

434
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,400
social media. 
So if they shouldn't be 

435
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,960
preaching, they shouldn't be 
preaching anywhere. 

436
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,440
Like they should just be at 
home. 

437
00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:35,160
And some people writing books 
isn't that they have writing 

438
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,760
books, but just that's it, you 
know, like they can't, they 

439
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,160
can't talk about those books if 
men are in the room. 

440
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,800
They can't talk about those 
books if it is a platform. 

441
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,240
Yeah. 
So I mean, again, female pastors

442
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,840
using platform for outfit making
statements. 

443
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,760
You don't have to answer that. 
Perspective on First Timothy 2 

444
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,800
verse 11 through 13. 
Why did Paul say not to let a 

445
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,920
woman have authority? 
OK, there we go again. 

446
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,680
When I was in youth ministry 
volunteering, women weren't even

447
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,600
allowed to pray with the young 
boys. 

448
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,480
My church says women can't be 
pastors or even have a title. 

449
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,720
Is it allowed? 
I'm in the process of getting a 

450
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,160
degree and next Gen. ministry to
be a youth pastor and. 

451
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,680
And here's the thing, I had a a 
conversation with an 

452
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,920
organization was just 
evangelical organization. 

453
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,360
They are not in they're not a 
theology. 

454
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:29,000
They're just like, we want to 
teach people how to preach the 

455
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,520
gospel. 
We want to send your own 

456
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,200
missions. 
We're not we're not we're not 

457
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,880
establishing church government. 
And they said that they had so 

458
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,800
many people from foreign 
countries that had been so 

459
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,080
abused with these Scriptures. 
And and it's they were like 

460
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,400
they're weeping and crying and 
saying, I feel called to 

461
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,280
preaching and people are saying 
I'm doing something evil. 

462
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,240
So can a woman preaching the 
gospel. 

463
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,160
Is that evil? 
Is that ever? 

464
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,520
Is there ever a position that's 
going to ever be evil? 

465
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,040
I'm I'm going all the way to 
evil. 

466
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:05,880
I'm not. 
Saying for sure it's not evil. 

467
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,280
Right. 
And I would say it's profoundly 

468
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,600
biblical for women and men to 
preach the gospel. 

469
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,280
And is that making disciples? 
Would you say preaching is 

470
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,400
making disciples? 
I think it's part of 

471
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,600
discipleship making. 
I don't think you need to preach

472
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,640
to make disciples. 
And not every preacher maybe is 

473
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,760
a disciple maker. 
But I think there's a Venn 

474
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,640
diagram, right? 
Like an overlap between that. 

475
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,240
I think preaching can play a 
role in making disciples. 

476
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,120
But I mean, Priscilla discipled 
Apollos. 

477
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,000
You're not allowed to say that. 
I mean, that's Luke said it to 

478
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,360
1000 years ago. 
Luke, sorry, Acts 1826 where 

479
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,920
Priscilla and Aquila and she's 
named first. 

480
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,000
We don't know why but it clearly
doesn't mean she was a tagalong 

481
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,480
making muffins while while 
Aquila was doing the explaining 

482
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,800
to Apollos. 
It says they Priscilla name 

483
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,000
first explain to him the way of 
God more fully. 

484
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,720
And even if you go back to verse
25, eight, Luke, sorry, Acts 

485
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:10,800
1825, the language prior to 
Priscilla explaining to him, 

486
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:16,000
it's sort of playing off of 
Apollos teaching the way of God 

487
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,280
accurately and then they 
explained it to him more 

488
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,120
accurately. 
So you can't say, well, they 

489
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:23,400
explained it to him, but they 
weren't teaching him. 

490
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,880
That just goes against what the 
text is saying. 

491
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:33,960
You have Romans 16 is filled 
with women who were vital 

492
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,960
disciple makers in the ministry 
of Paul. 

493
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:43,720
You know, called Paul describes 
more women than men in Romans 16

494
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,880
as with descriptions of carrying
out like gospel activities and 

495
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,480
even calls junior. 
The subtitle of my book or title

496
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,440
of my book. 
He calls an apostle and there's 

497
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,600
debate about that about what 
that means. 

498
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,320
Does he really call her an 
apostle, which so I spend about 

499
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,040
15 pages digging into the Greek 
and everything. 

500
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,160
And not only does he call her an
apostle, but she went to 

501
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,520
prisons. 
People, most people have never 

502
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,840
noticed this. 
Paul says that she, her and 

503
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,720
Andronicus Junior and her 
husband Andronicus were in 

504
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:20,080
prison, implying for the gospel.
Now in the 1st century, you 

505
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,720
would have to do something very 
public and disruptive from a 

506
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,280
Roman Empire standpoint to be 
thrown in prison. 

507
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,160
And women were rarely thrown in 
prison. 

508
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,320
They, they must have seen Junior
as doing something that was a 

509
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,000
threat to the Empire. 
And you know what? 

510
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,480
Women were thrown in the same 
cells as men. 

511
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,800
Can you, I mean, take yourself 
back to a 1st century prison 

512
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:48,360
cell filled with a bunch of male
criminals in a society where 

513
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,880
women were already second class 
citizens. 

514
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,800
They weren't separated. 
The cell. 

515
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,880
I can't imagine. 
I got three daughters and I just

516
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,600
imagine my daughter in a cell 
with a bunch of thugs where the 

517
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,000
rules there are no rules. 
And she got out of prison 

518
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,880
because Paul uses the present 
tense, saying they are highly 

519
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:13,640
esteemed among the apostles. 
So she kept apostling the church

520
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,000
after being dragged through hell
and back, whatever she went 

521
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,840
through in prison, and kept on 
preaching the gospel. 

522
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,640
Did having daughters motivate 
some of this writing? 

523
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:33,040
That's a good question. 
Not not because I need them to 

524
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,920
have the opportunity to be a 
pastor or preacher. 

525
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,680
If the Bible says no, then I'm 
going to tell them. 

526
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,080
I don't think the Bible says 
that. 

527
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,040
If that was something they none 
of my daughter's would want to. 

528
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,040
Anyway, there's a big cost to 
it. 

529
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:46,320
I'll just. 
Oh yeah, yeah. 

530
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,720
But I do want them to see again,
regardless of the leadership 

531
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:57,440
question, God highly, highly 
value not just values women, but

532
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:03,240
women are in an essential role 
in the furtherance of God's 

533
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,960
Kingdom throughout Scripture 
from Genesis to Revelation. 

534
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:11,480
And so I never want my daughters
to feel like, oh, because I'm a 

535
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,600
woman, I can never be as 
impactful as a man. 

536
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,600
That is not just, oh, I love my 
daughters and I want them to 

537
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,320
feel that way. 
That is just profoundly 

538
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,320
unbiblical that that assumption.
But many women feel that in the 

539
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,840
church, and so I would love for 
that to change in, in the church

540
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:28,080
culture for sure. 
Yeah. 

541
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:29,560
Yeah. 
So would that be your greatest 

542
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,880
hope for this book? 
Yeah, I think so. 

543
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,280
Yeah, absolutely. 
Because not everybody's going 

544
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:35,480
to. 
So I don't know if I've said, 

545
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,800
OK, So my conclusion is based on
my best understanding of the 

546
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:46,360
Bible, having studied this 3/3 
plus years straight, I don't see

547
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,800
any leadership roll off limits 
for for for women. 

548
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,560
So teaching, preaching even 
yeah, pastoring. 

549
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,240
So the teaching and preaching 
one to me is pretty easy. 

550
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,560
The leadership role as a whole 
is there's we're going on less 

551
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:10,080
and I I would say I land softly 
in the sense that I still admit 

552
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,200
in my conclusion there, there's 
some complexity. 

553
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,280
I'm going off my most honest, 
thorough understanding and 

554
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,000
that's where I land. 
But I, I, I respect people that 

555
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,560
will end up disagreeing. 
You know, there's good arguments

556
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,200
to the contrary. 
So, so that covers probably half

557
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,440
of those questions that my, 
according to my understanding of

558
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,640
what the text says, doesn't 
matter what I say. 

559
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,440
I it's more like I think the 
Bible is saying women could lead

560
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,360
in in all forms. 
Yeah, and I think for me, I, 

561
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:45,920
I've always felt that women have
the right to make disciples to 

562
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,240
declare the gospel. 
You know, I feel like even if 

563
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,480
we, even if you separate first 
days and last days in the last 

564
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,960
days, God says I'm going to pour
out my spread on all flesh and 

565
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,040
your sons and your daughters it.
And he says men servants. 

566
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,280
And it's almost like he was 
like, I'm going to have to let 

567
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,440
people know that there is a 
distinguishing that there's men 

568
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,480
servants and maidservants. 
And so I feel like he was very 

569
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,600
clear, like this is not the 
last. 

570
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,080
And he, and I love that it says 
in the last days, God says 

571
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,080
because we've had a lot of 
people saying things, but what 

572
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,600
is God saying? 
What is God saying? 

573
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,360
And so for me, that was key. 
I do feel, and again, I would be

574
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,000
this would just be me being very
simplistic in my vantage. 

575
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,880
I do know there are those that 
think that a woman that is a 

576
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,320
pastor is complete rebellion. 
I as a senior pastor, I'm not 

577
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,760
talking about pastor on staff, 
they also don't like that, but a

578
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,760
teaching pastor. 
But I'm saying senior pastor, 

579
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,280
people that have a real problem 
with that, I cannot say that I 

580
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,160
think that's evil. 
And I also don't feel like I 

581
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,000
have the right to tell somebody 
they haven't heard from God if 

582
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,480
God told them to do something. 
I we do so much internationally.

583
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,560
We, you know, I remember we were
giving away books in Farsi and 

584
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,880
we were hearing, Oh yeah, the, 
the books in Farsi, they're 

585
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,720
going out. 
And, and I was like, why, why 

586
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,199
are you giving all of our, our 
books to women in the 

587
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,639
underground church in Farsi and 
our that's what he said. 

588
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,440
That's what he said. 
Our guy, said John. 

589
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:19,239
It is the women leading the 
underground church in Farsi. 

590
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:25,159
So it's not, it's not the gender
that should disqualify even we 

591
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:27,120
look at elders. 
It's not the gender that 

592
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,880
qualifies. 
It's virtue, it's character, 

593
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,400
it's godliness. 
It's a good report within and 

594
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,960
without. 
It is managing your home well. 

595
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:39,159
So I think there is an argument 
that it's hard for a woman to be

596
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:42,760
the husband of one wife. 
So like it's so I kind of the 

597
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,719
church, the church should feel, 
I'd love to hear that. 

598
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,360
The church should feel like a 
household, like you are the you 

599
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:55,320
are the head of your household, 
but you serve with that position

600
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,080
of authority. 
You don't dominate with it. 

601
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,480
And you and your wife have one 
heart and one purpose. 

602
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,480
And the church should have one 
heart and one purpose. 

603
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,280
And that is to, you know, again,
it's not to have people attend, 

604
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,240
it's to the affecting of the 
Saints for the Saints to do the 

605
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:13,960
work of the ministry. 
So if that is the purpose of the

606
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,160
church, and you tell half the 
church they can't do the work 

607
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,080
for the ministry, that feels 
like there's something wrong. 

608
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,080
Right, right. 
In my conclusion, I talk about 

609
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,920
how I think the Church needs 
mothers and fathers, and when 

610
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:29,480
only one sex is leading, 
typically men right it it. 

611
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,120
Or even just one woman. 
Yeah. 

612
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:31,880
Or one woman. 
Yeah. 

613
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,720
It lacks a richness. 
Yeah, it, it suffers the same 

614
00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:37,400
challenges like a single parent 
household would suffer. 

615
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,080
I, I was raised by a single mom 
and you know, she did an amazing

616
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,400
job, work three jobs and put 
bread on the table and stuff. 

617
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,960
But not having a, a father in a 
home. 

618
00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:49,760
Yeah, there there was. 
It creates a unique challenge. 

619
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,640
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 
And so I think because the 

620
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,640
church is a household, it's a 
household of God, right? 

621
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,000
Also, isn't Timothy that we, 
yeah, we need mothers, mothers 

622
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,440
and fathers. 
So yeah, that's good. 

623
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:05,760
So the name of your book is. 
From Genesis to Junior, an 

624
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,560
honest search for what the Bible
really says about women in 

625
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,200
leadership. 
Just a little little little 

626
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:12,120
spicy. 
No, no, no. 

627
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,600
I love it. 
And and I love that you took it 

628
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,080
all the way. 
You didn't just say, well, I'm 

629
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,560
going to just start in the New 
Testament. 

630
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,200
You took it from Genesis because
in Genesis we always find the 

631
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,800
seed of what should be, you 
know? 

632
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,160
Especially Genesis 1 and two, 
yeah. 

633
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,440
Absolutely. 
And then I want every woman out 

634
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:37,080
there to actually not come to 
this, this book with an anger or

635
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,360
looking to like, Hey, this is my
axe to grind and I deserve a 

636
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,320
position. 
But to actually come with a 

637
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:48,320
curiosity and to I hear you 
saying to receive the the God 

638
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:53,960
worth as his daughter and that 
you have permission to receive 

639
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,960
that. 
You know, I, I think, I think I 

640
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:01,840
heard Joel say Joel Moto Molly 
say, I've never that Deborah was

641
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,920
the only judge that didn't have 
any criticism. 

642
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,720
Like when you look at the 
different stories, But I also 

643
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:12,560
love that Deborah, she said 
village life had ceased until I 

644
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:17,600
Jebra arose arose a mother. 
A mother is very different, but 

645
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,160
it's it's more powerful than a 
mentor. 

646
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,600
Mentors reproduce themselves. 
Mothers want more for their 

647
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,520
children than they ever 
experienced themselves. 

648
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,760
And I love how she says, 
basically be strong and of good 

649
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,360
courage because the Lord your 
God is with you. 

650
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,440
And she's calling forth a Prince
in exile. 

651
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,080
And what what I have had a 
challenge with Preston as being 

652
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:44,520
the mother of four sons is the 
diminishing of the value of men.

653
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,000
Yes, yes. 
For women to get value. 

654
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:48,760
Yes. 
Oh yeah, isn't that backwards? 

655
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,160
Yes, I mean we get value from 
God, not not from taking it from

656
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,320
each. 
Other or female roles being 

657
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,280
diminished because they're not 
male roles like oh you're just a

658
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,560
mother? 
Oh, like in downplaying? 

659
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,160
Hardest thing I've ever done. 
Downplaying the most profound 

660
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,920
thing a human can do Push a 
human out of her body, feed it 

661
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,000
from her body and give life. 
I mean, that's that's what a 

662
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,280
picture of God. 
Isn't that what procreation is? 

663
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,240
It's it's you know, God is 
creator. 

664
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:19,640
He creates and his people, his 
image bearers create and let's 

665
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,160
face it, women pay play a maybe 
more significant role in the 

666
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,080
process. 100% Jim Gaffigan has a
funny. 

667
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,760
Yes, about the five second, 5 
second contribution, yes, no. 

668
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,920
Well, and OK, so going back to 
that, when people quote things 

669
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,680
or like, but but the man, the 
woman was deceived. 

670
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,640
And therefore, you know, I'd 
love your take away on that 

671
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,800
because I do know the Greeks 
believe the woman was first and 

672
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,800
the man was second. 
And then of course they they 

673
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,520
were like, Hey, we're going to 
reverse this, this idea. 

674
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,360
It's a false idea. 
You know, the man was first and 

675
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,680
the the woman is from the man 
for the man. 

676
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:04,040
That doesn't mean under the man,
but compliment the man and and 

677
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,280
not saying complimentarian but 
compliments the man. 

678
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,280
What do you do? 
Like because they kind of make 

679
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,600
it sound like women are always 
easily deceived because 1 was. 

680
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:22,920
So to give context, in my book, 
I think I have 60 pages just on 

681
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:30,280
First Timothy, 29 to 15. 
So every single verse there has 

682
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,640
a lot to it. 
And I try to if somebody wants a

683
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,320
light, fluffy book, they're 
going to read in a couple. 

684
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,120
Hours don't read this. 
Isn't it, it's, it's 

685
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,560
conversational, it's not just 
for academics, but I, I'm not 

686
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,640
going to, if it's a complicated 
passage, I'm going to take 

687
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:49,560
people through the complexity so
they can see here are the many 

688
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:50,840
questions we need to work 
through. 

689
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,480
We can't just sight a verse and 
move on thinking it's it it's 

690
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,000
that easy, you know? 
So, so yeah, Paul, and in First 

691
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,800
Timothy 212 gives the 
prohibition, I do not permit a 

692
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,280
woman to exercise, to teach or 
exercise authority over a man. 

693
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,680
OK. 
There's already complications 

694
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,840
around the term authority. 
I think it's a negative kind of 

695
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,240
authority. 
You're saying a domineering? 

696
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,360
Yes, like a domineering 
authority. 

697
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,400
And then he the next verse is 
key. 

698
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:24,000
Verse 13, four Adam is created 
first, then Eve, then verse 14. 

699
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,840
And it was a woman who is 
deceived, not the man, right? 

700
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,720
That train of logic used to be 
so clear to me. 

701
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:34,320
Women can't teach her exercise 
authority because Adam is born 

702
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,280
1st and women are more easily 
deceived. 

703
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:41,560
It's in the creation account 
that for so many years that was 

704
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,920
so simple and clear to me until 
I started to really slowly study

705
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,160
the text and say nothing about 
this. 

706
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,280
Is that clear? 
First of all, Adam being born 

707
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,400
first or created first, Why do 
we think that that gives him 

708
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,680
some kind of special place of 
privilege? 

709
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:05,160
All throughout Scripture, God 
overturns this priority of the 

710
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,120
first born. 
All throughout read the book of 

711
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,120
Genesis, he's constantly 
overturning that culminating in 

712
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,640
the last Adam is better than the
first Adam, you know. 

713
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:18,760
So being born first is not 
automatically give you some kind

714
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,280
of privilege in the Kingdom of 
God. 

715
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,440
So is Paul really saying because
Adam was created first, 

716
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,520
therefore he's the leader, Eve's
not or is there something or are

717
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,040
there other interpretive 
options? 

718
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,760
And I think there are. 
The deception piece is 

719
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,920
interesting because throughout 
church history, church leaders 

720
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:43,720
did believe women were 
intrinsically inferior to men 

721
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:49,640
intellectually and spiritually. 
Yes, they are. 100% of women are

722
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:55,280
more easily deceived than men. 
Now, we know scientifically 

723
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,480
that's not true. 
Even if you can make a case that

724
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,160
more women are easily deceived 
than men, it's not, it's not 

725
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,120
across the board. 
I don't know. 

726
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:06,480
I'm not sure we can make that 
case. 

727
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:12,480
What's interesting is Paul 
elsewhere uses Eve's deception 

728
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,360
as as an example as a warning to
to people, but he gives it to 

729
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,320
the entire church in Second 
Corinthians. 

730
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,280
Not just the women. 
Not just the women, No, In fact,

731
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,600
everywhere in Scripture, when 
he's warning against deception, 

732
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,120
sometimes, yeah, uses Eve as an 
example that nobody should be 

733
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,880
deceived. 
So and then we get to that final

734
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,640
verse. 
Women will be saved through 

735
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,840
childbearing. 
And that's the that's the 

736
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,160
culmination of his argument. 
So it means if you've never had 

737
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,920
a child, you're not saved if you
if you take it literally, like 

738
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,760
everything else, it. 
Is such a bizarre verse, but 

739
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,760
here's what's fascinating I did 
not know this so I dug into 

740
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,680
studying some of the the the 
background of Ephesians. 

741
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,160
You know, most people know that 
there was the worship of Artemis

742
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:58,720
was the the patron God of 
Ephesus, one of the seven 

743
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:00,280
wonders. 
Her temple was one of the seven 

744
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,880
wonders of the world. 
Her presence, her mythology 

745
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,720
dominated Ephesus and Asia Minor
as a whole. 

746
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:09,880
Like you could not walk 2 steps 
outside your door in Ephesus and

747
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,760
not be impacted by Artemis 
mythology. 

748
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,320
Well, if you look at all the 
texts that talk about Artemis 

749
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:20,720
and in the ancient Greek texts 
she was known for being a like a

750
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:24,640
divine midwife. 
Yeah, the protector of of women 

751
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,720
in labor. 
Who delivered women either 

752
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:30,640
through labor or sometimes gave 
them no pain if they did die or 

753
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,560
something like that. 
So I think it's pretty clear 

754
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:39,040
Paul is like responding to some 
kind of Artemis mythology 

755
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,040
regarding childbearing. 
Well, if if that's true of verse

756
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:44,840
15. 
And you have to revisit all the.

757
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,960
Exactly. 
And so that's what I do in the 

758
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:51,520
book. 
I say, OK, are there other touch

759
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,440
points between Artemis 
mythology, which dominated 

760
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,920
Ephesus, found its way into the 
church, touch points between 

761
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,480
that and Paul's argument here? 
And I found a lot there's a 

762
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,360
every verse has some connection 
with Artemis mythology. 

763
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,480
So I couldn't. 
It would take me 50 pages to 

764
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,080
explain it right now, but just. 
To no, but I think I think 

765
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,480
you're giving people something 
yes, to consider and and going 

766
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,000
forward, this is going to be 
incredibly crucial. 

767
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,720
And I, I know my audience, you 
know, they go between the you 

768
00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:26,640
can preach, but you can't 
pastor, or you can preach, but 

769
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,840
you can't preach with authority.
Or you can preach, but you can't

770
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,160
preach on Sunday. 
Or you can preach but only to 

771
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,640
women, or you can preach, but 
you can only preach in a book. 

772
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,440
Or and it becomes these like you
have to jump through so many 

773
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,640
hoops that there's just no 
freedom. 

774
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,920
I will say this, everything you 
said there are are modern 

775
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:54,160
categories that are, I would say
mostly not in the New Testament.

776
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,800
I mean the word pastor is only 
used once, first Ephesians 411, 

777
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,040
and it's not a gender specific 
context. 

778
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,640
It's God's given diversity of 
gifts to all people to be 

779
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,280
prophets and apostles and pastor
teachers. 

780
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:14,360
So the concept of a lead pastor 
I would argue isn't in the New 

781
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,120
Testament. 
People debate that, so I'm not. 

782
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,560
Senior Pastor. 
Some people would say like an 

783
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:26,720
you have an overseer, elder, 
Deacon and you get you could get

784
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:29,360
that from First Timothy 3. 
I think it's more complicated 

785
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,840
than that. 
So I don't see a really clear 

786
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:37,720
ironed out hierarchy of like 
pastor, elders teacher or Bishop

787
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,400
elders teacher. 
I see it as a lot mess. 

788
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,880
Those leadership categories I 
see as messier than that. 

789
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,240
So that's chapter 4 of the book 
they'll have. 

790
00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:47,880
To go everything is always 
messier. 

791
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:49,840
Everything is everything is 
always messier. 

792
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,960
Well, and I, I just, I love that
you took on this challenge and 

793
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,280
I, I feel I want to ask you this
question because what is that 

794
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:07,440
risk if we don't get this right?
Because I feel like we're 

795
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,200
starting to see the fallout, 
yes, in marriage, yes, 

796
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,240
parenting, an exodus of young 
girls away from the church. 

797
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:17,960
That's where I was going to go, 
yeah. 

798
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:22,400
Yeah, but even in our culture. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

799
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:30,720
I mean, we're dealing with God's
place for half of the population

800
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:33,880
of his Kingdom. 
So that's an important question.

801
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,960
And you know, male, female, 
these, these are the most 

802
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,720
fundamental traits of humanity. 
This is the essence of what it 

803
00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:46,520
means to be human, male, female,
created in God's image. 

804
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,600
So I think understanding male, 
male, female, different, I think

805
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,720
we need to celebrate male, 
female differences. 

806
00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:55,960
I want to make that clear too, 
because some egalitarians will 

807
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,640
try to erase differences or 
think we have to minimize 

808
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,640
differences to achieve equality.
I that is such a unbiblical, 

809
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:04,520
modern way of thinking through 
it. 

810
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,320
God created males and females 
different. 

811
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,640
The question is, do those 
differences relate to who can be

812
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,840
in certain roles or not? 
And do those differences glorify

813
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,160
God 100% in their unique 
experience? 

814
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,120
Yeah, an expression. 
Yes, absolutely. 

815
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:23,680
So, yeah. 
So I think a lot, a lot is at 

816
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:28,680
stake, unfortunately, unlike 
other doctrines in Scripture 

817
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,000
that I think are a lot clearer, 
I think this one is, it's still,

818
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,680
you know, I land where I do and 
I try to be honest with how 

819
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:37,960
confident I am. 
And hey, look, I'm willing to 

820
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,560
reshape my conclusion if there's
better evidence presented. 

821
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,080
But here's where I see scripture
pointing to. 

822
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,040
But when it comes to other 
questions like sexuality, I 

823
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,480
think the Bible's crystal clear 
that marriage is between a man 

824
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,280
and a woman, despite what you 
might read on Google or 

825
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,240
something like I, I defended 
that in several books. 

826
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:57,840
And it should be clear, but like
that to me, that's like so clear

827
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:03,040
from Genesis to Revelation that 
that some you probably won't 

828
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,440
plan on going here. 
But the possibility of same sex 

829
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,920
marriage is just it's just, it's
just you just can't get there 

830
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:11,600
from a you can't sound reading 
of. 

831
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,120
Scripture. 
No, no, you can't 100% agree 

832
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:15,520
with that. 
You know, Preston, a lot of 

833
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:19,160
times people ask me, well, I 
feel called and I feel like God 

834
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:25,120
is saying go and preach or go be
a part of a leadership service 

835
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,400
at my church and their husband 
doesn't feel like they're 

836
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,800
supposed to do that. 
How do they navigate that? 

837
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:33,280
First of all, that that would. 
Be. 

838
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,400
Really tough situation, really 
tough. 

839
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:41,040
And I'm not a marriage 
counselor, so this is getting 

840
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:42,280
involved. 
Neither my. 

841
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:50,840
This is above my pay grade, but 
you know, submission that 

842
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,040
triggered some people with that 
word. 

843
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,600
Let's let that sit for a second.
Submission is a Christian 

844
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,920
virtue. 
A Christian virtue, not a female

845
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,440
virtue or to submit to one 
another in love and there are 

846
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,040
several verses that tell wives 
submit to your husbands and tell

847
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:12,080
husbands to lay down their lives
for their wives which sounds. 

848
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:13,760
Way more on the men. 
Than women. 

849
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,120
But we only hear about the women
part but yes. 

850
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,880
But giving up of your rights, 
submitting to somebody else, 

851
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,960
that's that is the way of Jesus.
You know, like even if you have 

852
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,240
the right to something or you 
want to do this or whatever, 

853
00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:36,280
like Jesus didn't demonstrate 
that the whole crucifixion was 

854
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,600
him submitting to injustice for 
the sake of accomplishing 

855
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,920
justice. 
You know, like so I would say, 

856
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:49,240
yeah, I mean, Philippians 2, 
Gosh, that probably my favorite 

857
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:54,200
section of Scripture to 5:00 to 
11:00 where, you know, Jesus had

858
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,840
all this authority and he gave 
that up to wash feet. 

859
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:03,240
And that's why that because of 
that dissent and submission, God

860
00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:06,120
highly exalted him. 
And that that pattern is 

861
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,960
supposed to be replicated by by 
Christians. 

862
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,280
So I'm not saying. 
No, I listen, I've always 

863
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,280
believed that if God, God can 
speak through your husband 

864
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:20,200
whether he's saved or not. 
And so I, I, I mean, I haven't 

865
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:25,720
had to navigate that myself 
impressing, but I would not John

866
00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:27,920
approves every single one of my 
speaking engagements. 

867
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:29,920
Guess what? 
I approve his. 

868
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,080
So we, we are building a 
marriage and we believe 

869
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,960
submission means under 
assignment that we have a 

870
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,160
mission together as a husband 
and wife. 

871
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,120
And it would be very weird if my
mission was over here. 

872
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,360
And I'm not talking about if I 
was a lawyer and John was a 

873
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:45,720
doctor. 
I'm not talking I'm talking 

874
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:49,280
about if I was making choices or
he was making choices that 

875
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,240
undermined the mission of loving
one another. 

876
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:57,160
Well, glorifying God and 
building a family who loves and 

877
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,760
honors God. 
So I think I think that 

878
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,240
contention. 
I think I would want my 

879
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:06,480
husband's I hate to user 
permission because people to get

880
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,800
triggered with that, but you 
know, I I'd want my husband to 

881
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,160
say I feel I feel good about you
doing this, just like my husband

882
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,400
would want me to feel good about
something he would do. 

883
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,840
And so I feel like it's more of 
a marriage navigating than it is

884
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,440
a ministry navigation thing. 
If even if someone said I think 

885
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,800
marriage is completely 
egalitarian, both people are 

886
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,800
equal leaders in every way 
whatever, even then there should

887
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,240
be a whole lot of submission 
happening on both sides. 

888
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,720
You know, or if you believe in 
in in more of a, you know, the 

889
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,360
the man is the leader in every 
way and the woman only submits 

890
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,800
whatever. 
Paul defines leadership as being

891
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,360
the head, as laying down your 
your life. 

892
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:49,200
So yeah, it's a it's a dance, 
it's a mutual dance where both 

893
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:53,040
parents are are submitting and 
giving in and and Can you 

894
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,400
imagine a marriage where both 
people are just rushing to not 

895
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,440
my will, but yours be done and 
trying to serve the other person

896
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:01,880
above their own their own 
desire. 

897
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,520
So yeah, that's tough. 
I mean, if a woman. 

898
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:06,280
Like it's a deeper question. 
It's a deeper question. 

899
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:07,960
Yeah, we're not going to be able
to pack it here. 

900
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,640
I do have, I, I, I do have 1 
chapter on Ephesians 5, but I 

901
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,200
don't answer all the kind of 
modern day questions people are 

902
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:16,720
going to have. 
I just want to understand what's

903
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:19,840
the what's Paul doing here with 
this language of headship and 

904
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,000
submission? 
So yeah. 

905
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,640
John has always said that 
authority is for protection, 

906
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:31,080
provision and direction. 
And so it's it's it's a serving 

907
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:35,640
position in that. 
And so like the, the husband is 

908
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,640
the head of the household to 
provide those things, but not to

909
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,120
dominate. 
It's, it's to actually serve 

910
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:43,480
them. 
And we always believe marriage 

911
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,160
is 2 people committed to bring 
out the best in each other, not 

912
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,440
best in each other, not fighting
for the lead position. 

913
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,480
And there's certain things that 
John does way better than me 

914
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,400
that aren't necessarily male 
things. 

915
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,960
And there are certain things I 
do that aren't necessarily 

916
00:52:59,960 --> 00:53:05,400
female assigned things. 
So, yeah, we, we've, we've done 

917
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:10,120
that poorly and then we've done 
it better, you know, but we've 

918
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:14,320
been married 43 years and so and
I'm watching my sons and their 

919
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:16,560
wives do it so much better, you 
know? 

920
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,160
So they're like, oh, I remember 
my parents having this fight. 

921
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,600
Let's not do that, Preston. 
There's women out there that are

922
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,840
going to watch this and there's 
going to be some that are are 

923
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,200
going to, they're already 
hurting. 

924
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,160
And then there's some that are 
angry and then there are some 

925
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,720
that are afraid by the things 
that you're saying. 

926
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,400
You, you might be scaring them 
because you're actually 

927
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,080
challenging them to rethink some
stuff that maybe they've already

928
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:43,920
decided. 
Or maybe, you know, they're 

929
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:48,840
hardline egalitarian and you 
know, it's a hard turn now, man,

930
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:54,600
You sit down or they're this 
very hard line complimentary. 

931
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:59,560
And, and, and they're finding 
themselves in, in this tension 

932
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:01,480
of some of the things that 
you've brought up. 

933
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:07,680
I'm going to ask you to pray for
them that that number one, that 

934
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:09,680
the Holy Spirit would begin to 
speak to them. 

935
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:14,800
And, and just as a man that you 
have been a student. 

936
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,040
And I mean, we didn't even talk 
about your qualifications. 

937
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:23,880
You are, you're a, you're a long
term theology scholar and you 

938
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:28,960
are versed in Greek and Hebrew. 
I do not speak and I think even 

939
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:30,520
some Aramaic. 
Am I wrong on that? 

940
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,240
I've studied Aramaic. 
You studied Aramaic. 

941
00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:36,080
OK, so, so you understand some 
of those nuances that might be 

942
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,840
lost on other people that don't 
understand that some of this was

943
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,160
an Aramaic, some of this is in 
Greek, some of this is in 

944
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,400
Hebrew. 
And we mix them all together and

945
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:46,760
then we put them in the English 
language, which we don't even 

946
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,880
pronounce things correctly. 
So could you just pray for them 

947
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,560
that the eyes of their 
understanding would be 

948
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:55,480
enlightened? 
And then for every single woman 

949
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,440
out there, this is an important 
book. 

950
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:01,160
This is a very important book. 
And this is not written by 

951
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:02,600
somebody that's been wounded. 
I hope. 

952
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,400
I hope you heard Preston say, I 
just wanted to go in and say 

953
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:12,840
what does Scripture say? 
You know what, we have people 

954
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:17,040
that have expressed feelings, 
pains, offense, anger than 

955
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,520
people that have been repressed 
and say no you need to be 

956
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,280
repressed too. 
You know what, we need to push 

957
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:28,280
it all aside and we need to say 
we need both the Spirit of the 

958
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,080
Word of God and the letter of 
the Word of God. 

959
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:35,400
We need the wisdom of God's Holy
Spirit to interpret Scripture 

960
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,840
and we need to allow Scripture 
to interpret itself and not take

961
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:43,160
it out of a cultural context. 
When people talk about women are

962
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:45,360
supposed to be in the pulpit, 
that is immediately taking it 

963
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,360
out of a cultural context. 
Jesus didn't have pulpits. 

964
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,120
There was no pulpits for women. 
So now we make it where don't 

965
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,320
stand behind the pulpit, stand 
to the side of the pulpit stand.

966
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:56,200
I mean, it's just, it's just 
nonsense. 

967
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,040
So we need to be able to rightly
and divide. 

968
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:03,880
And I believe this book from 
Genesis to Junior will help you 

969
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,960
rightly divide the word of God. 
And so, President, I want to 

970
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:09,520
thank you. 
And then I just want you to pray

971
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:11,040
for this. 
I want you to pray for these 

972
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:13,800
women. 
I'll pray and first of all, I 

973
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,040
just want to encourage 
everybody. 

974
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:19,360
I've got a motto that I live by.
Let the strength of your passion

975
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:23,320
for any topic but this one in 
particular, let the strength of 

976
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,000
your passion be matched by the 
depth of your study. 

977
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,320
And I just hope this book will 
invite people not to agree with 

978
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:35,000
me or disagree with me, but to 
drive them to go back to 

979
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,920
Scripture again and again so 
that the strength of your 

980
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,320
passion about what the Bible 
says will be matched with the 

981
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,400
depth of your study in the text 
of Scripture. 

982
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,200
So let me. 
And when does the book come out?

983
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:47,520
March 3rd. 
And where's the best place for 

984
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:52,160
them to get it? 
Whoever books are sold, Lord, I 

985
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,400
thank you so much for this 
conversation. 

986
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,200
And I do pray for all the 
especially the women listening 

987
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:02,040
that maybe they've had they they
felt like they were second class

988
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:06,360
citizens in the church or maybe 
they've experienced just really 

989
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:11,040
direct oppression and abuse. 
Lord, I pray that you would 

990
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:15,120
comfort them that you would 
empower them to see their 

991
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:22,200
infinite value before you and 
not just value, but how women as

992
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:27,640
all people have a vital, 
essential role to play in your 

993
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:29,840
Kingdom that is spreading 
throughout this world, Lord. 

994
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,880
So I pray that you would 
encourage and strengthen the 

995
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:39,360
women listening, and I pray that
they would cling even more 

996
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,240
firmly to Jesus after listening 
to this conversation in Christ's

997
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,840
name, Amen. 
Amen, Preston, Thank you so 

998
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:45,680
much. 
Thank you, Lisa. 

999
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,280
I'm so glad we got to have this 
conversation and I believe it's 

1000
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,440
just going to be the beginning 
of a lot more conversations like

1001
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:53,920
this. 
So thank you. 

1002
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:54,560
Thank you so much.