Can women be pastors? Can women preach?
Why are scriptures weaponized against women?
For so many years that was so simple and clear to me until I
started to really slowly study the texts and say nothing about
this. Is that clear?
As a woman who wants to honor God with every portion of my
life, you don't want to go against Scripture.
If you've ever had a Reformed person come after you and tell
you that a woman preaching is the highest form of evil, you
don't take it lightly. That passage in Timothy is very
complicated. Yes, if somebody simply reads an
English translation, says therefore you are disobeying
blah blah blah, run the other way.
What is that risk if we don't get this right?
Welcome to the least of your podcast and I cannot even tell
you how excited I am to address this topic.
This is one of the most divisive and divided issues in the body
of Christ. And today I'm hosting my friend
Preston Sprinkle, who I came across his path when he wrote
the amazing book People to Be Loved.
And y'all freaked out back then, so I don't know if you're going
to freak out on me today, but this is such an important
conversation that we have right now.
And Preston, you never shy away from hard topics.
What are we tackling today? Oh yeah, I'm trying to get
cancelled and it just no matter what I do, I can't get
cancelled. So I'm going to try to get
cancelled with this book on women in leadership.
Women in leadership, Women in leadership, Oh my gosh.
You mean? But if their leaders are going
to have to talk. They might have to talk.
Whoa whoa, it causes problems. And for context, I mean I was
raised my undergrad and seminary degrees were from John
MacArthur's school masters. Go home, go home.
Beth Moore So I mean, it was on the very far end of the
complementarian side of things. So that's all I knew, Yes, but
I. But then you got filled with the
Holy Spirit. Then I got filled.
Then I met Lisa Bevere and she set me straight.
No, no, no. You got filled with those before
I met you. I was helping you promote your
message. Do you remember that?
Because I said this message is so important because People to
Be Loved was one of the first time I heard that we need to
stop making homosexuality an issue.
We need to understand it is people that need Jesus.
Well, and you actually read the book.
I did. The book clearly defends
traditional marriage from a biblical perspective, responds
to push backs and also says truth and grace.
Like we need to embody the grace of God, the care of God, the
kindness of God towards people who haven't experienced that for
the sake of the gospel, for the sake of repentance.
And people that didn't read the book thought it was like soft on
sin or no repentance or some people even said he affirmed
same sex marriage even though the book absolutely does not do
that. So thank you for actually
reading the book. I would not have reached out to
you if I hadn't read it. So I do love to read.
But this book I haven't read yet, but I have I, I, I'm
familiar with the content. I live the content on a weekly
basis. So Preston, why?
Why would you first of all, go on this journey?
Because I know how you go on it. You go on it as neutral as
possible as you can. You step back.
You say I'm going to try to remove as much as possible.
We all have bias, confirmational bias, my bias, my personal bias,
my theological bias, and I'm going to just go into the
scripture and you said I'm going to go in on the woman issue.
Yes, yes for so, again, raised in a very strong complementarian
context, women could not teach. Preach, maybe get near a stage.
You know, I mean, that was just all I knew.
You know, I read First Timothy, 212 male apostles, blah, blah,
blah. I'm like, it made sense.
But over the years, I started to get to know a lot of evangelical
writers and pastors and scholars who did not agree with that
view. They love Scripture and they say
women can teach and preach and maybe even be pastors.
And so for, for the last 10 or 15 years, I kind of said this
issue is clearly more complex and I don't want to just rely on
what I grew up believing. And I want, I want to know what
the text says. As you know, though, once you
start opening the door to the ongoing scholarly debate,
there's a massive pile of literature, there's complex word
studies or there's a lot of issues that take a lot of time
to think through from a biblical standpoint.
And so I said, you know what? I'm just not going to, I don't
have an opinion on this topic. And I'm not going to have an
opinion until I have time to thoroughly study it out.
As you know, I'm, I'm just with every topic I want to know what
does the Bible say? I'm, I'm just so deeply
entrenched with understanding what does the Bible say?
Not this denomination, this culture, and how do I feel?
I I want to know what does the Bible say?
So a few years ago, I finally had time in my schedule to sit
down and spend. It ended up being a three-year
research project just trying to understand what does the Bible
say about women in leadership? So that's what I did and it was.
Fun. Yeah.
I mean, you, you're going all the way to the deep end with
leadership. I mean, I'm still hearing from
people that women can't preach, so I do you.
Do you believe there is a difference between a woman who
preaches and a woman who leads? That's a good question.
I think preaching is a form of leadership, but not every leader
needs to preach. Not every preacher needs to lead
in other areas. I think there's diversity within
those roles in, in, in the New Testament concept.
So, so can women teach and teach or preach?
That's a kind of a sub question within my study.
But I, I am, it is broader in the sense of sense of I want to
know can women fulfill some, many or any leadership role in,
in the church? Is my overarching question.
OK, take us on your journey. OK, so it's, if you read the
book I write, I wrote the intro three years ago when I began my
study. So in my own introduction, I
don't know where I'm going to land.
I love that. And I point out that I'm just,
I, I don't have any predisposed desire for one view or the
other. I just, I truly am passionate
about understanding what does the Bible say?
Not whether I like what it says, but just what does it say?
I Over the years I've seen some strong complementarian
arguments, some strong egalitarian arguments, some weak
ones on both sides. And I don't have any anything
really invested in needing to land on a certain conclusion.
I preach in both complimentary and egalitarian churches.
All my friends are kind of all over the map.
I there's nothing economically riding on me having a position
like I don't teach at a complementarian seminary, you
know, or egalitarian seminary. I don't teach at a seminary.
I'm not part of a denomination. I'm not even, I don't even think
I'm ordained anymore. They might take it away.
They might take it. Regardless of where I land my
nothing is at stake here. So objectively I do I I don't
have anything riding on needing to land on a certain view.
So what I do is I just go Genesis, Revelation, hitting all
the major passages. I look at Genesis 1 to 3 is a
big passage about male female relations.
And I survey the Old Testament, look at how women are used
throughout the Old Testament. Look at women in the ministry of
Jesus, women in the ministry of Paul, female prophets, Ephesians
5. And then I tackle the kind of
the there's three really tough passages that seem to exclude
women exercising some kind of teaching or or authority role in
the church. So of course, first, you know
these back in your hand, I'm sure First Corinthians. 14. 1st
Corinthians 14 women be silent, you know, in church and First
Timothy 2 is the biggest one. Women should not teach or
exercise authority is how some translations have it over men.
So I have a lot. I mean, I probably have 80 pages
on those two chapters alone, so. You know, one of the things that
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Well, I'm going to tell you there are a lot of women out
there waiting for this kind of book because you know, I'll just
say this as a woman who wants to honor God with every portion of
my life. You don't want to go against
scripture. You don't want to say what I
feel called. So therefore I'm going to just
do it. You want to honor God in and my
experience. It was so interesting is I've
had more pushback from women than men.
Really. I don't want you to surprise.
I mean, maybe the men just don't find me, but but literally never
wanted to speak to mixed audience was always like I feel
called to women. And I found myself at a
particular church that celebrated both men and women's
voices and our home church that we went to, which was new life
where Ted had just had his big explosion.
They, you know, he I mean, we he just, you know, been removed
from leadership And it's the spring and I'm at this big
church and they said, Hey, can you do Sunday morning?
And I said, oh, no, no, no, I'm not allowed to do Sunday
morning. Our pastor doesn't allow us to
speak on Sunday morning as women.
And they said, well, I'm not your pastor.
And this church women speak and we want you to speak.
And your pastor actually isn't even your pastor anymore.
There's you're in an interim situation.
And and Preston, it was the worst sermon I've ever done in
my life because I'm up there sweating, thinking, hearing I
suffer a woman not to preach or teach or have authority, you
know, women beside. I mean, I'm like trying to so.
You had those passages kind of haunting you while you're.
Speaking, not just haunting like yelling in my head because I
have torn between honoring God and the question of this pastor
who says this is my church and in my church women have a role
and I'm inviting you not to lead.
I'm not wanting you to do church discipline, not to exercise
authority. I want you to serve my body.
And then I'm like, what do I do with of course, serve like.
And so the next time I went back to that church president, do you
know that my husband went with me and I said, I'm not bringing
my Bible And John said, why would you not bring your Bible?
That's just stupid. And I said, because I'm afraid
they're asked me to preach. And he said, well, I said, if
I'm sitting with you, I'll just read along with you.
And if you're preaching, I know what you're going to say.
I don't need. I don't need, you know, like I.
And so he was like, I yeah, Lisa, this isn't going to work.
And sure enough, I was asked. And again, I got up.
Sweating was the worst. And I bet you killed it.
No, I'm getting. No, no.
There were women that invited me for the women's conference, said
they're going to cancel me. No, no, because because I was so
scared, Preston, of dishonouring God dishonour.
I mean, like those are severe scriptures.
And if you've ever had a reformed person come after you
and tell you that a woman preaching is the highest form of
evil or the highest form of rebellion or whatever, because
I've heard all of those things. You know, if you've heard those
kind of things, you don't take it lightly.
And so again, I, I think it's important that you address those
topics because I know that maybe women haven't heard those kind
of things to be the extent I have, but they've heard it.
One thing I would say, and I, you know, I've been not telling
people my conclusion because I want people to follow my
journey. I want them to enjoy the
exegetical journey without having this like potential
roadblock of, well, he lands here.
So I don't know. I mean, I'm happy to tell you
where I end up landing, but I will say this wherever,
regardless where people ultimately land on whether or
not women can teach, preach or lead, that passage in Timothy is
very complicated. If somebody simply reads an
English translation and says therefore you are disobeying
blah blah, blah, like run the other way, that person is not
taking the time to actually like think through study, look up
words like they have they they like.
It is a very complicated passage.
Now I do think there's. Not spirit, You're saying?
It's very harsh. It's not.
They have not gone into the spirit of the writing or the.
I mean to be quite honest, they just haven't done in depth
study. OK.
I mean, even the word translated authority, often tame, is never
used elsewhere in the Bible. The entire Bible, Greek Old
Testament, Greek New Testament, it's only used a few times
outside the New Testament. So it's whatever that word
means. Everybody should be very humble
in their conclusion because we're going on such minimal
evidence of what it actually means.
I do think to let the cat out of the bag a little bit, based on
the evidence we do have about how this one Greek word is used
elsewhere. I do think it's referring to a
kind of like dominating negative kind of authority is.
That what's happening in the Greek churches it.
Was certainly, and it was in it and Ephesus was a location where
you did have women given the Artemis cult where they had a
lot of power and it would have been very natural for a woman to
perhaps abuse that power. So I don't think that verse is
excluding women from exercising godly authority that men can
exercise. I think there was a particular
problem with women at the church and that's why he addresses them
and prohibits them from exercising this kind of
dominating authority over over man.
So and people, you know, people can will disagree with me on
that, but at least we can all recognize this is you can't just
read this verse and think it just the meaning leaps off the
pages. It is.
It is complicated so. Well, and I think that when
something is complicated, it's really important we have
conversation 100% instead of accusation.
And that's I think what what we've mired down to is this
accusation. So when you went on this
journey, what were some of the things that surprised you the
most? Man, so many things.
I think one of the most impactful things I thought I saw
throughout my study was regardless of the specific
question of women in church leadership, God was using women
in in some of the most powerful, powerful ways to carry out his
plan of redemption. One of my favorite what what
became one of my favorite sections in Scripture is the
early chapters of Exodus. I mean, this is this is a
turning point in redemptive history.
All the heroes are women at the beginning, women I know.
The two midwives, Miriam, Moses's mother, the daughter of
Pharaoh Zipporah, is apparently good with a Flint knife and does
some circumstances and stuff there.
But women save the day. Men are either scared like like
Moses or they're not existent or they're the Pharaoh who's
opposing. I mean, it is a it is a
dichotomy between men and women. And in a deeply patriarchal
culture, God uses all these marginalized women to carry out
to instigate his plan of redemption.
Like that's just mind blowing. Now, does that mean women can be
olders in a church? No, I don't want to draw a
straight line there. We need to be really.
Careful, we need to add back value to women. 100% right.
Yes, absolutely. And you see this all everywhere
in in the Bible. You know, men are named for
every 10 named men, there's only one named woman.
So women are mentioned a lot less frequently than men.
And I think a lot of people would get, you know, when they
read the Bible, that's kind of what they see.
All this mostly men, you know, but men often are doing really
terrible things, even the good ones like David, you know,
adultery and blood on his hands and and Moses was a mixed bag,
you know, almost every you know, Abraham trafficked his wife.
Twice after after God told him his wife was going to have
Isaac. It was crazy.
Yeah, so, so you know, you, you have a few men like maybe
Daniel, maybe Samuel. And it wasn't unique.
Right. Yeah, yeah, so, so, but most of
the women, while it's a, it's a quality quantity thing.
Well, well, quantity wise, women are mentioned fewer.
The quality of the women that are mentioned are off the chart.
Abigail. I've got a short section of
Abigail. She's one of my favorite.
She's unbelievable, Yeah. In fact, one commentator says
her her the description of Abigail is so glowing at borders
on being mythical. She's wise.
She what everyone thinks. She takes leadership in that
story. Takes her portion.
She take. Oh my gosh, she's David.
She's kind, she's wise, she's even prophetic.
She like announces ahead of time to him that he's going to be
God's going to establish a dynasty through him.
So, yeah, her then you have, you know, you know, Hannah and and
and hold of the prophet and Deborah the you know, so the the
quality of women throughout the Bible, they often model the
kinds the kind of faithfulness and courage that men are failing
that we see this everywhere in the Gospels.
Oh my word, people are like, well, 12 male apostles and I'm
like, yeah, that's we should wrestle with that.
What does that mean? But look at the character of the
12 apostles in the Gospels. They screw up way more than
their succeed in terms of faithfulness and in in almost
every instance when a woman who appears in the ministry of
Jesus, she is modeling the kind of courage, faithfulness and and
suffering that Jesus demands from his followers.
So that's again, regardless of where you land.
I think that alone that you there's this steady theme of
faithful women in a culture when they were second class citizens
that that's mind boy. I think it adds credibility not
only to the Christian faith, but the many women who are.
Extending God's Kingdom of the world today.
And how important is this message right now?
I was, and I don't know when this clip was recorded, but it's
going out right now, where this Iman was saying that there was
all these animals and then there was another animal called woman
and that God made her look human so that it wouldn't frighten the
male. And I was like, what in the
world I was like and people, we've got the the progressive
liberal white women, which I'm just going to invest in self
tanning right now and just going to go to olive lives.
But they are over here with ridiculous, not even
understanding the oppression of these women under a religion
that has next to no value for them.
And then we've got the judeo-christian framework that
does value. And I understand some of the
Hindu does as well. But all right, so I've I've got
so many women that they just kind of want to go.
Can women be pastors? Can women preach?
You know, can women be in leadership?
Why are scriptures weaponized against women?
And I think that is what I'm hearing you say, is instead of
saying, yes, you can preach, no, you can't preach, we kind of go
to the heart of why are we weaponizing scriptures against
the daughters? Yes, I, you know, there could
be, here's I, I think there are men and, and women leader
scholars or, or writers or whatever that, you know, they
read the scriptures as honestly as they can and they conclude
that women can't be teachers and preachers.
I, I, I know several people in that camp and they're kind,
they're humble, they cheat their wives and daughters extremely
well. They are just compelled by their
studious attention to the text that for very, for whatever
reason, you know, God is designed men to fill these
roles. And you know, I, I, I, I, I
respect that. I, I don't land there
exegetically, but I, I can respect somebody whose
intentions are. I just want to understand what
the Bible says. And here's where I land.
There's another camp that it's hard to ascribe intentions, but
the sense I get is you really, really want the Bible to exclude
women from all areas of teaching, preaching, leadership,
and even if the Bible disagree, like you, you.
You've already decided you've. Already.
And you can see it in your life. You can see it in the way you
treat women. You can see it in the way you
talk about women. And that's a whole, you know,
they so, so that's kind of two kinds of, for lack of better
terms, complimentarians out there.
So, and I do think there's complimentarians that are
exactly what you said, that they have a high view of Scripture
and they believe that that is what Scripture is saying.
And they, but they also have a high view of women and they love
women and they honor their wives and they honor their daughters.
And then you have the ones that say they have a high view of
Scripture, but they don't have a high view of women.
And so they do weaponize it. I saw this and I wish I could
remember his name. I saw this Bible teacher very
kindly share that it's almost exactly what you said that there
are people that disagree with him that are very complimentary
and and people that he loves and have relationship with and
respect. I much respect.
But he said I personally feel like women have contribution and
he said, so we do have women, women voices and we do have
women in different pastoral roles.
And Preston, what surprised me was the vitriol that came back
to him in the in the comments. You know, I unfollow.
Yeah, I used to this and now that.
And that's a basic conclusion that should not be.
He was so respectful and the reaction almost, and this may be
an overstatement, but it borders on like a demonic response where
people are so mad when they're typing, they're misspelling, you
know, I mean, I can misspell when I when I don't have my
reading glasses on. But I mean, these people, they
couldn't get their hands were trembling.
They were like, Oh my gosh, another one bites that.
I mean they are so impassioned and angry with.
This. Are you saying this is what I
have to look forward to? Oh, you're going to definitely
get it, but I don't know, I think you might unfollow all the
people that disagree with you. So again, I've got some people
saying preaching God's word online, you know, And so that
becomes this thing where I, I, when I was studying, I thought,
when did the pulpit happen? Because pretty much podcasts is
a pulpit, pretty much social media is a pulpit.
So some of the critics that would say women are allowed to
preach, females that would even say that are on the pulpit of
social media. So if they shouldn't be
preaching, they shouldn't be preaching anywhere.
Like they should just be at home.
And some people writing books isn't that they have writing
books, but just that's it, you know, like they can't, they
can't talk about those books if men are in the room.
They can't talk about those books if it is a platform.
Yeah. So I mean, again, female pastors
using platform for outfit making statements.
You don't have to answer that. Perspective on First Timothy 2
verse 11 through 13. Why did Paul say not to let a
woman have authority? OK, there we go again.
When I was in youth ministry volunteering, women weren't even
allowed to pray with the young boys.
My church says women can't be pastors or even have a title.
Is it allowed? I'm in the process of getting a
degree and next Gen. ministry to be a youth pastor and.
And here's the thing, I had a a conversation with an
organization was just evangelical organization.
They are not in they're not a theology.
They're just like, we want to teach people how to preach the
gospel. We want to send your own
missions. We're not we're not we're not
establishing church government. And they said that they had so
many people from foreign countries that had been so
abused with these Scriptures. And and it's they were like
they're weeping and crying and saying, I feel called to
preaching and people are saying I'm doing something evil.
So can a woman preaching the gospel.
Is that evil? Is that ever?
Is there ever a position that's going to ever be evil?
I'm I'm going all the way to evil.
I'm not. Saying for sure it's not evil.
Right. And I would say it's profoundly
biblical for women and men to preach the gospel.
And is that making disciples? Would you say preaching is
making disciples? I think it's part of
discipleship making. I don't think you need to preach
to make disciples. And not every preacher maybe is
a disciple maker. But I think there's a Venn
diagram, right? Like an overlap between that.
I think preaching can play a role in making disciples.
But I mean, Priscilla discipled Apollos.
You're not allowed to say that. I mean, that's Luke said it to
1000 years ago. Luke, sorry, Acts 1826 where
Priscilla and Aquila and she's named first.
We don't know why but it clearly doesn't mean she was a tagalong
making muffins while while Aquila was doing the explaining
to Apollos. It says they Priscilla name
first explain to him the way of God more fully.
And even if you go back to verse 25, eight, Luke, sorry, Acts
1825, the language prior to Priscilla explaining to him,
it's sort of playing off of Apollos teaching the way of God
accurately and then they explained it to him more
accurately. So you can't say, well, they
explained it to him, but they weren't teaching him.
That just goes against what the text is saying.
You have Romans 16 is filled with women who were vital
disciple makers in the ministry of Paul.
You know, called Paul describes more women than men in Romans 16
as with descriptions of carrying out like gospel activities and
even calls junior. The subtitle of my book or title
of my book. He calls an apostle and there's
debate about that about what that means.
Does he really call her an apostle, which so I spend about
15 pages digging into the Greek and everything.
And not only does he call her an apostle, but she went to
prisons. People, most people have never
noticed this. Paul says that she, her and
Andronicus Junior and her husband Andronicus were in
prison, implying for the gospel. Now in the 1st century, you
would have to do something very public and disruptive from a
Roman Empire standpoint to be thrown in prison.
And women were rarely thrown in prison.
They, they must have seen Junior as doing something that was a
threat to the Empire. And you know what?
Women were thrown in the same cells as men.
Can you, I mean, take yourself back to a 1st century prison
cell filled with a bunch of male criminals in a society where
women were already second class citizens.
They weren't separated. The cell.
I can't imagine. I got three daughters and I just
imagine my daughter in a cell with a bunch of thugs where the
rules there are no rules. And she got out of prison
because Paul uses the present tense, saying they are highly
esteemed among the apostles. So she kept apostling the church
after being dragged through hell and back, whatever she went
through in prison, and kept on preaching the gospel.
Did having daughters motivate some of this writing?
That's a good question. Not not because I need them to
have the opportunity to be a pastor or preacher.
If the Bible says no, then I'm going to tell them.
I don't think the Bible says that.
If that was something they none of my daughter's would want to.
Anyway, there's a big cost to it.
I'll just. Oh yeah, yeah.
But I do want them to see again, regardless of the leadership
question, God highly, highly value not just values women, but
women are in an essential role in the furtherance of God's
Kingdom throughout Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.
And so I never want my daughters to feel like, oh, because I'm a
woman, I can never be as impactful as a man.
That is not just, oh, I love my daughters and I want them to
feel that way. That is just profoundly
unbiblical that that assumption. But many women feel that in the
church, and so I would love for that to change in, in the church
culture for sure. Yeah.
So would that be your greatest
hope for this book? Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, absolutely. Because not everybody's going
to. So I don't know if I've said,
OK, So my conclusion is based on my best understanding of the
Bible, having studied this 3/3 plus years straight, I don't see
any leadership roll off limits for for for women.
So teaching, preaching even yeah, pastoring.
So the teaching and preaching one to me is pretty easy.
The leadership role as a whole is there's we're going on less
and I I would say I land softly in the sense that I still admit
in my conclusion there, there's some complexity.
I'm going off my most honest, thorough understanding and
that's where I land. But I, I, I respect people that
will end up disagreeing. You know, there's good arguments
to the contrary. So, so that covers probably half
of those questions that my, according to my understanding of
what the text says, doesn't matter what I say.
I it's more like I think the Bible is saying women could lead
in in all forms. Yeah, and I think for me, I,
I've always felt that women have the right to make disciples to
declare the gospel. You know, I feel like even if
we, even if you separate first days and last days in the last
days, God says I'm going to pour out my spread on all flesh and
your sons and your daughters it. And he says men servants.
And it's almost like he was like, I'm going to have to let
people know that there is a distinguishing that there's men
servants and maidservants. And so I feel like he was very
clear, like this is not the last.
And he, and I love that it says in the last days, God says
because we've had a lot of people saying things, but what
is God saying? What is God saying?
And so for me, that was key. I do feel, and again, I would be
this would just be me being very simplistic in my vantage.
I do know there are those that think that a woman that is a
pastor is complete rebellion. I as a senior pastor, I'm not
talking about pastor on staff, they also don't like that, but a
teaching pastor. But I'm saying senior pastor,
people that have a real problem with that, I cannot say that I
think that's evil. And I also don't feel like I
have the right to tell somebody they haven't heard from God if
God told them to do something. I we do so much internationally.
We, you know, I remember we were giving away books in Farsi and
we were hearing, Oh yeah, the, the books in Farsi, they're
going out. And, and I was like, why, why
are you giving all of our, our books to women in the
underground church in Farsi and our that's what he said.
That's what he said. Our guy, said John.
It is the women leading the underground church in Farsi.
So it's not, it's not the gender that should disqualify even we
look at elders. It's not the gender that
qualifies. It's virtue, it's character,
it's godliness. It's a good report within and
without. It is managing your home well.
So I think there is an argument that it's hard for a woman to be
the husband of one wife. So like it's so I kind of the
church, the church should feel, I'd love to hear that.
The church should feel like a household, like you are the you
are the head of your household, but you serve with that position
of authority. You don't dominate with it.
And you and your wife have one heart and one purpose.
And the church should have one heart and one purpose.
And that is to, you know, again, it's not to have people attend,
it's to the affecting of the Saints for the Saints to do the
work of the ministry. So if that is the purpose of the
church, and you tell half the church they can't do the work
for the ministry, that feels like there's something wrong.
Right, right. In my conclusion, I talk about
how I think the Church needs mothers and fathers, and when
only one sex is leading, typically men right it it.
Or even just one woman. Yeah.
Or one woman. Yeah.
It lacks a richness. Yeah, it, it suffers the same
challenges like a single parent household would suffer.
I, I was raised by a single mom and you know, she did an amazing
job, work three jobs and put bread on the table and stuff.
But not having a, a father in a home.
Yeah, there there was. It creates a unique challenge.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so I think because the
church is a household, it's a household of God, right?
Also, isn't Timothy that we, yeah, we need mothers, mothers
and fathers. So yeah, that's good.
So the name of your book is. From Genesis to Junior, an
honest search for what the Bible really says about women in
leadership. Just a little little little
spicy. No, no, no.
I love it. And and I love that you took it
all the way. You didn't just say, well, I'm
going to just start in the New Testament.
You took it from Genesis because in Genesis we always find the
seed of what should be, you know?
Especially Genesis 1 and two, yeah.
Absolutely. And then I want every woman out
there to actually not come to this, this book with an anger or
looking to like, Hey, this is my axe to grind and I deserve a
position. But to actually come with a
curiosity and to I hear you saying to receive the the God
worth as his daughter and that you have permission to receive
that. You know, I, I think, I think I
heard Joel say Joel Moto Molly say, I've never that Deborah was
the only judge that didn't have any criticism.
Like when you look at the different stories, But I also
love that Deborah, she said village life had ceased until I
Jebra arose arose a mother. A mother is very different, but
it's it's more powerful than a mentor.
Mentors reproduce themselves. Mothers want more for their
children than they ever experienced themselves.
And I love how she says, basically be strong and of good
courage because the Lord your God is with you.
And she's calling forth a Prince in exile.
And what what I have had a challenge with Preston as being
the mother of four sons is the diminishing of the value of men.
Yes, yes. For women to get value.
Yes. Oh yeah, isn't that backwards?
Yes, I mean we get value from God, not not from taking it from
each. Other or female roles being
diminished because they're not male roles like oh you're just a
mother? Oh, like in downplaying?
Hardest thing I've ever done. Downplaying the most profound
thing a human can do Push a human out of her body, feed it
from her body and give life. I mean, that's that's what a
picture of God. Isn't that what procreation is?
It's it's you know, God is creator.
He creates and his people, his image bearers create and let's
face it, women pay play a maybe more significant role in the
process. 100% Jim Gaffigan has a funny.
Yes, about the five second, 5 second contribution, yes, no.
Well, and OK, so going back to that, when people quote things
or like, but but the man, the woman was deceived.
And therefore, you know, I'd love your take away on that
because I do know the Greeks believe the woman was first and
the man was second. And then of course they they
were like, Hey, we're going to reverse this, this idea.
It's a false idea. You know, the man was first and
the the woman is from the man for the man.
That doesn't mean under the man, but compliment the man and and
not saying complimentarian but compliments the man.
What do you do? Like because they kind of make
it sound like women are always easily deceived because 1 was.
So to give context, in my book, I think I have 60 pages just on
First Timothy, 29 to 15. So every single verse there has
a lot to it. And I try to if somebody wants a
light, fluffy book, they're going to read in a couple.
Hours don't read this. Isn't it, it's, it's
conversational, it's not just for academics, but I, I'm not
going to, if it's a complicated passage, I'm going to take
people through the complexity so they can see here are the many
questions we need to work through.
We can't just sight a verse and move on thinking it's it it's
that easy, you know? So, so yeah, Paul, and in First
Timothy 212 gives the prohibition, I do not permit a
woman to exercise, to teach or exercise authority over a man.
OK. There's already complications
around the term authority. I think it's a negative kind of
authority. You're saying a domineering?
Yes, like a domineering authority.
And then he the next verse is key.
Verse 13, four Adam is created first, then Eve, then verse 14.
And it was a woman who is deceived, not the man, right?
That train of logic used to be so clear to me.
Women can't teach her exercise authority because Adam is born
1st and women are more easily deceived.
It's in the creation account that for so many years that was
so simple and clear to me until I started to really slowly study
the text and say nothing about this.
Is that clear? First of all, Adam being born
first or created first, Why do we think that that gives him
some kind of special place of privilege?
All throughout Scripture, God overturns this priority of the
first born. All throughout read the book of
Genesis, he's constantly overturning that culminating in
the last Adam is better than the first Adam, you know.
So being born first is not automatically give you some kind
of privilege in the Kingdom of God.
So is Paul really saying because Adam was created first,
therefore he's the leader, Eve's not or is there something or are
there other interpretive options?
And I think there are. The deception piece is
interesting because throughout church history, church leaders
did believe women were intrinsically inferior to men
intellectually and spiritually. Yes, they are. 100% of women are
more easily deceived than men. Now, we know scientifically
that's not true. Even if you can make a case that
more women are easily deceived than men, it's not, it's not
across the board. I don't know.
I'm not sure we can make that case.
What's interesting is Paul elsewhere uses Eve's deception
as as an example as a warning to to people, but he gives it to
the entire church in Second Corinthians.
Not just the women. Not just the women, No, In fact,
everywhere in Scripture, when he's warning against deception,
sometimes, yeah, uses Eve as an example that nobody should be
deceived. So and then we get to that final
verse. Women will be saved through
childbearing. And that's the that's the
culmination of his argument. So it means if you've never had
a child, you're not saved if you if you take it literally, like
everything else, it. Is such a bizarre verse, but
here's what's fascinating I did not know this so I dug into
studying some of the the the background of Ephesians.
You know, most people know that there was the worship of Artemis
was the the patron God of Ephesus, one of the seven
wonders. Her temple was one of the seven
wonders of the world. Her presence, her mythology
dominated Ephesus and Asia Minor as a whole.
Like you could not walk 2 steps outside your door in Ephesus and
not be impacted by Artemis mythology.
Well, if you look at all the texts that talk about Artemis
and in the ancient Greek texts she was known for being a like a
divine midwife. Yeah, the protector of of women
in labor. Who delivered women either
through labor or sometimes gave them no pain if they did die or
something like that. So I think it's pretty clear
Paul is like responding to some kind of Artemis mythology
regarding childbearing. Well, if if that's true of verse
15. And you have to revisit all the.
Exactly. And so that's what I do in the
book. I say, OK, are there other touch
points between Artemis mythology, which dominated
Ephesus, found its way into the church, touch points between
that and Paul's argument here? And I found a lot there's a
every verse has some connection with Artemis mythology.
So I couldn't. It would take me 50 pages to
explain it right now, but just. To no, but I think I think
you're giving people something yes, to consider and and going
forward, this is going to be incredibly crucial.
And I, I know my audience, you know, they go between the you
can preach, but you can't pastor, or you can preach, but
you can't preach with authority. Or you can preach, but you can't
preach on Sunday. Or you can preach but only to
women, or you can preach, but you can only preach in a book.
Or and it becomes these like you have to jump through so many
hoops that there's just no freedom.
I will say this, everything you said there are are modern
categories that are, I would say mostly not in the New Testament.
I mean the word pastor is only used once, first Ephesians 411,
and it's not a gender specific context.
It's God's given diversity of gifts to all people to be
prophets and apostles and pastor teachers.
So the concept of a lead pastor I would argue isn't in the New
Testament. People debate that, so I'm not.
Senior Pastor. Some people would say like an
you have an overseer, elder, Deacon and you get you could get
that from First Timothy 3. I think it's more complicated
than that. So I don't see a really clear
ironed out hierarchy of like pastor, elders teacher or Bishop
elders teacher. I see it as a lot mess.
Those leadership categories I see as messier than that.
So that's chapter 4 of the book they'll have.
To go everything is always messier.
Everything is everything is always messier.
Well, and I, I just, I love that you took on this challenge and
I, I feel I want to ask you this question because what is that
risk if we don't get this right? Because I feel like we're
starting to see the fallout, yes, in marriage, yes,
parenting, an exodus of young girls away from the church.
That's where I was going to go, yeah.
Yeah, but even in our culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, we're dealing with God's place for half of the population
of his Kingdom. So that's an important question.
And you know, male, female, these, these are the most
fundamental traits of humanity. This is the essence of what it
means to be human, male, female, created in God's image.
So I think understanding male, male, female, different, I think
we need to celebrate male, female differences.
I want to make that clear too, because some egalitarians will
try to erase differences or think we have to minimize
differences to achieve equality. I that is such a unbiblical,
modern way of thinking through it.
God created males and females different.
The question is, do those differences relate to who can be
in certain roles or not? And do those differences glorify
God 100% in their unique experience?
Yeah, an expression. Yes, absolutely.
So, yeah. So I think a lot, a lot is at
stake, unfortunately, unlike other doctrines in Scripture
that I think are a lot clearer, I think this one is, it's still,
you know, I land where I do and I try to be honest with how
confident I am. And hey, look, I'm willing to
reshape my conclusion if there's better evidence presented.
But here's where I see scripture pointing to.
But when it comes to other questions like sexuality, I
think the Bible's crystal clear that marriage is between a man
and a woman, despite what you might read on Google or
something like I, I defended that in several books.
And it should be clear, but like that to me, that's like so clear
from Genesis to Revelation that that some you probably won't
plan on going here. But the possibility of same sex
marriage is just it's just, it's just you just can't get there
from a you can't sound reading of.
Scripture. No, no, you can't 100% agree
with that. You know, Preston, a lot of
times people ask me, well, I feel called and I feel like God
is saying go and preach or go be a part of a leadership service
at my church and their husband doesn't feel like they're
supposed to do that. How do they navigate that?
First of all, that that would. Be.
Really tough situation, really tough.
And I'm not a marriage counselor, so this is getting
involved. Neither my.
This is above my pay grade, but you know, submission that
triggered some people with that word.
Let's let that sit for a second. Submission is a Christian
virtue. A Christian virtue, not a female
virtue or to submit to one another in love and there are
several verses that tell wives submit to your husbands and tell
husbands to lay down their lives for their wives which sounds.
Way more on the men. Than women.
But we only hear about the women part but yes.
But giving up of your rights, submitting to somebody else,
that's that is the way of Jesus. You know, like even if you have
the right to something or you want to do this or whatever,
like Jesus didn't demonstrate that the whole crucifixion was
him submitting to injustice for the sake of accomplishing
justice. You know, like so I would say,
yeah, I mean, Philippians 2, Gosh, that probably my favorite
section of Scripture to 5:00 to 11:00 where, you know, Jesus had
all this authority and he gave that up to wash feet.
And that's why that because of that dissent and submission, God
highly exalted him. And that that pattern is
supposed to be replicated by by Christians.
So I'm not saying. No, I listen, I've always
believed that if God, God can speak through your husband
whether he's saved or not. And so I, I, I mean, I haven't
had to navigate that myself impressing, but I would not John
approves every single one of my speaking engagements.
Guess what? I approve his.
So we, we are building a marriage and we believe
submission means under assignment that we have a
mission together as a husband and wife.
And it would be very weird if my mission was over here.
And I'm not talking about if I was a lawyer and John was a
doctor. I'm not talking I'm talking
about if I was making choices or he was making choices that
undermined the mission of loving one another.
Well, glorifying God and building a family who loves and
honors God. So I think I think that
contention. I think I would want my
husband's I hate to user permission because people to get
triggered with that, but you know, I I'd want my husband to
say I feel I feel good about you doing this, just like my husband
would want me to feel good about something he would do.
And so I feel like it's more of a marriage navigating than it is
a ministry navigation thing. If even if someone said I think
marriage is completely egalitarian, both people are
equal leaders in every way whatever, even then there should
be a whole lot of submission happening on both sides.
You know, or if you believe in in in more of a, you know, the
the man is the leader in every way and the woman only submits
whatever. Paul defines leadership as being
the head, as laying down your your life.
So yeah, it's a it's a dance, it's a mutual dance where both
parents are are submitting and giving in and and Can you
imagine a marriage where both people are just rushing to not
my will, but yours be done and trying to serve the other person
above their own their own desire.
So yeah, that's tough. I mean, if a woman.
Like it's a deeper question. It's a deeper question.
Yeah, we're not going to be able to pack it here.
I do have, I, I, I do have 1 chapter on Ephesians 5, but I
don't answer all the kind of modern day questions people are
going to have. I just want to understand what's
the what's Paul doing here with this language of headship and
submission? So yeah.
John has always said that authority is for protection,
provision and direction. And so it's it's it's a serving
position in that. And so like the, the husband is
the head of the household to provide those things, but not to
dominate. It's, it's to actually serve
them. And we always believe marriage
is 2 people committed to bring out the best in each other, not
best in each other, not fighting for the lead position.
And there's certain things that John does way better than me
that aren't necessarily male things.
And there are certain things I do that aren't necessarily
female assigned things. So, yeah, we, we've, we've done
that poorly and then we've done it better, you know, but we've
been married 43 years and so and I'm watching my sons and their
wives do it so much better, you know?
So they're like, oh, I remember my parents having this fight.
Let's not do that, Preston. There's women out there that are
going to watch this and there's going to be some that are are
going to, they're already hurting.
And then there's some that are angry and then there are some
that are afraid by the things that you're saying.
You, you might be scaring them because you're actually
challenging them to rethink some stuff that maybe they've already
decided. Or maybe, you know, they're
hardline egalitarian and you know, it's a hard turn now, man,
You sit down or they're this very hard line complimentary.
And, and, and they're finding themselves in, in this tension
of some of the things that you've brought up.
I'm going to ask you to pray for them that that number one, that
the Holy Spirit would begin to speak to them.
And, and just as a man that you have been a student.
And I mean, we didn't even talk about your qualifications.
You are, you're a, you're a long term theology scholar and you
are versed in Greek and Hebrew. I do not speak and I think even
some Aramaic. Am I wrong on that?
I've studied Aramaic. You studied Aramaic.
OK, so, so you understand some of those nuances that might be
lost on other people that don't understand that some of this was
an Aramaic, some of this is in Greek, some of this is in
Hebrew. And we mix them all together and
then we put them in the English language, which we don't even
pronounce things correctly. So could you just pray for them
that the eyes of their understanding would be
enlightened? And then for every single woman
out there, this is an important book.
This is a very important book. And this is not written by
somebody that's been wounded. I hope.
I hope you heard Preston say, I just wanted to go in and say
what does Scripture say? You know what, we have people
that have expressed feelings, pains, offense, anger than
people that have been repressed and say no you need to be
repressed too. You know what, we need to push
it all aside and we need to say we need both the Spirit of the
Word of God and the letter of the Word of God.
We need the wisdom of God's Holy Spirit to interpret Scripture
and we need to allow Scripture to interpret itself and not take
it out of a cultural context. When people talk about women are
supposed to be in the pulpit, that is immediately taking it
out of a cultural context. Jesus didn't have pulpits.
There was no pulpits for women. So now we make it where don't
stand behind the pulpit, stand to the side of the pulpit stand.
I mean, it's just, it's just nonsense.
So we need to be able to rightly and divide.
And I believe this book from Genesis to Junior will help you
rightly divide the word of God. And so, President, I want to
thank you. And then I just want you to pray
for this. I want you to pray for these
women. I'll pray and first of all, I
just want to encourage everybody.
I've got a motto that I live by. Let the strength of your passion
for any topic but this one in particular, let the strength of
your passion be matched by the depth of your study.
And I just hope this book will invite people not to agree with
me or disagree with me, but to drive them to go back to
Scripture again and again so that the strength of your
passion about what the Bible says will be matched with the
depth of your study in the text of Scripture.
So let me. And when does the book come out?
March 3rd. And where's the best place for
them to get it? Whoever books are sold, Lord, I
thank you so much for this conversation.
And I do pray for all the especially the women listening
that maybe they've had they they felt like they were second class
citizens in the church or maybe they've experienced just really
direct oppression and abuse. Lord, I pray that you would
comfort them that you would empower them to see their
infinite value before you and not just value, but how women as
all people have a vital, essential role to play in your
Kingdom that is spreading throughout this world, Lord.
So I pray that you would encourage and strengthen the
women listening, and I pray that they would cling even more
firmly to Jesus after listening to this conversation in Christ's
name, Amen. Amen, Preston, Thank you so
much. Thank you, Lisa.
I'm so glad we got to have this conversation and I believe it's
just going to be the beginning of a lot more conversations like
this. So thank you.
Thank you so much.