1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:06,600 What does God think about doors? I have seen people completely 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:11,080 shunned, labeled, and then we have culture and culture will 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,960 give you a pass on every single option. 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,320 I'm not happy. We've grown apart. 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:18,960 He's not who I thought he was going to be. 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,320 I meet so many women, they'll say I'm divorced. 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:23,680 I'm like, no, no, a divorce is something that happens. 8 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,760 It's not something that you are. You're single. 9 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,880 John's Italian. I'm Sicilian. 10 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,600 I'm stubborn. He's pretty stubborn too. 11 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,080 And we had a standoff where I took off my engagement ring and 12 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:36,800 refused to wear it for 18 months. 13 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,240 I'm home. I'm crying out to God. 14 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,160 I'm like, God, Do you see how John travels? 15 00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:47,000 Do you see how he talks to me? You see how we get him when he's 16 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,280 tired? Do you see he gives his best to 17 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,920 the ministry and his worst to his family? 18 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,480 And I like I brought all these things and I'm crying out to God 19 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:02,440 and I heard, hey, I've got exciting news. 20 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,160 If you've been listening to the Fight for Female podcast, then 21 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,480 you know that we are taking on some really big issues and 22 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:14,400 equipping women to engage on the front lines with culture. 23 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,000 We believe that we are just beginning. 24 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,560 We want to expand this mission. That is why I'm inviting you to 25 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,760 join the Fight Club. This is a community of 26 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,120 courageous women committed to spreading this message with both 27 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,560 truth and love. Here's what you're going to get. 28 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,360 You're going to get access to quarterly live events. 29 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:40,160 You're going to get exclusive Q&A's and an insider only 30 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:44,120 content to learn more how you can be part of this Fight Club 31 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,480 or join today, click the link below in the show description. 32 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,800 OK, So what does God think about divorce? 33 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,640 Well, first of all, I want you to know, sometimes with the 34 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,880 church says is not what the Scripture says about divorce. 35 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,360 Actually, let's go first to what we hear a lot in churches. 36 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:10,160 I have seen people completely shunned, labeled, oh, they're 37 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,880 divorced. There's even some denominations 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,040 that if you've gone through a divorce, you can never be a 39 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,760 pastor, you can never lead, you can never have a voice. 40 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,720 I do not believe that. That is what we see in 41 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,720 Scripture. I believe a divorce is something 42 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,000 you go through. It is not something that you 43 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,880 are. It's not an identity, it is a 44 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,520 breach. It is a break of a covenant 45 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,080 between a husband and wife and of course God. 46 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:42,080 So there's churches that either take it as a opportunity to shun 47 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,720 and shame, then there's other churches, let's just be honest, 48 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,960 that act like it's nothing. And I don't think a divorce is 49 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,960 something to shun or shame, but I also don't think it's 50 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:58,000 something to undertake lightly. I think that when we say we are 51 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:03,000 people under Scripture, as a church we need to say what does 52 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,760 God say, not what my denomination says. 53 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:11,280 What does, what does God say? First of all, God makes 54 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,560 provision. When God was talking through 55 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,600 Moses, he gave provision for divorce. 56 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:23,600 And when Jesus referenced back, he said God gave the men the 57 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,160 right to divorce because of the hardness in their hearts. 58 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:32,080 And so I think God is always looking for a reason for us to 59 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,200 have tender hearts, not hard hearts. 60 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,960 So it used to be only men could divorce their wives. 61 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,720 The wives did not divorce the husbands. 62 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,960 And now we live in a time period where men can divorce and women 63 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,560 can divorce. And we live in a time period of 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,440 no fault divorce. There's no one at fault. 65 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,360 We just are incompatible. God does not go with that. 66 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,560 God is like, hey, there are provisions for divorce. 67 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,080 There are provisions like if there is adultery, if there is 68 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:07,080 abuse now somebody's husband not meeting their emotional deep 69 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,720 meaning long. That is not that is not abuse. 70 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,520 We're talking about when you are unsafe. 71 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:17,440 We are talking about when God sees somebody that the husband 72 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,160 is supposed to be protecting the wife or the wife is supposed to 73 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,280 be protecting the husband's heart and they are both misusing 74 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:29,200 that to a place of danger, a place where your children would 75 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,600 be at risk of physical abuse, sexual abuse. 76 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:37,440 These, these are provisions to leave a situation because to be 77 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,520 honest with you, when those kind of desecrating acts happen, 78 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,760 whether it's adultery, whether it's physical or sexual abuse of 79 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,040 a child or of you, that is actually an undermining of the 80 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,760 covenant of God. So we have church, we have God, 81 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,040 and then we have culture and culture will give you a pass on 82 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,320 every single option. I'm not happy they're not 83 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:03,600 meeting. We've grown apart. 84 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,200 There is, you know, he's not who I thought he was going to be. 85 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:07,680 I thought we were going to have this. 86 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,440 I thought we were going to do that. 87 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,680 You know, those kind of reasons. There's hardly any reason that 88 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,640 is given by culture to stay. And I believe that God wants to 89 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:24,880 build life and families. I believe that God says he hates 90 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,000 divorce because it tears, but it doesn't just tear the two, it 91 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,800 tears the family. You know, if they say that 92 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:37,040 children of divorce are something like 5 times more 93 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:42,080 likely to die before the age of 40 than children with parents 94 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,920 that stayed together, they begin to question everything. 95 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,800 I can remember when my parents, I came home from school one day, 96 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,920 I think I was in 7th grade, and my parents were like, hey, 97 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,480 listen, we've got some news. We're divorcing. 98 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:00,880 I was like, what? I remember I went from top math, 99 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,960 you know, advanced math, advanced English to lowest. 100 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:10,360 I refuse to do my homework. I refuse to answer questions. 101 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:15,760 I on purpose failed test. I started to sabotage my life 102 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,160 because I decided. I decided I don't even know 103 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,720 what's real anymore. I don't even know. 104 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,720 And I remember my dad sitting me down and said, I know you think 105 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,720 you're punishing me. I know you think you're 106 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,240 punishing your mom. But the truth is the only person 107 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,600 you're really punishing is yourself, because you're now no 108 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,800 longer in the advanced classes, you're in the remedial classes. 109 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,480 And that choice that you're making in middle school is going 110 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:40,840 to follow you all the way to college. 111 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:43,000 And I was like, what? Wait, I don't want to do that. 112 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:49,320 But how many children right now are making horrible life 113 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:54,120 affecting choices because the story of their parents marriage 114 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,720 ended up being a lie and it shakes the very foundation of 115 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,840 their lives? I believe that there is more 116 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:07,600 reason to stay and I believe that whether culture says it's 117 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,520 the right thing or not, if we are followers of Christ, I 118 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,880 believe that we can lean in and we can talk to the counselor of 119 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,440 the Holy Spirit and we can actually find Spirit felt 120 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,200 counselors who will take the Scripture, not our trauma, take 121 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,240 the Scripture and lay it over our situation. 122 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,680 And I want you to know I am in agreement that you can build a 123 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,920 life and legacy through your marriage. 124 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,760 I want to speak to everyone out there that is like I am. 125 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,680 I'm ready to throw in the towel on my marriage. 126 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,200 Listen, when I was first married, I was in the habit of 127 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:48,240 throwing plates, throwing fits, but I did not want to throw in 128 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,720 the towel on my marriage. I remember there was a moment 129 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,920 where John and I were in the kitchen and I was like, I can't 130 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,480 talk right now because I'm going to say things I'm have to give 131 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,720 an account for later. And John kept provoking, 132 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,440 provoking, provoking to try to engage me in the conversation. 133 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,960 And before, before I knew what had happened, I took the plate 134 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,400 that was in my hand and I frisbeed it at him. 135 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,240 He moved out of the way, kind of like something from the Matrix 136 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,200 missing being decapitated, and it traveled the length of the 137 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,120 room and went out the window. The only problem was the window 138 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:29,680 was closed and when I shattered that window it was a wake up for 139 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:34,159 me that my temper had gotten in the way from the marriage I 140 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:39,440 wanted to build. So many people are giving up too 141 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,520 quickly. You don't need to throw in the 142 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,320 towel. You don't need to even throw a 143 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,360 plate. It is preferable, but don't 144 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,360 quit. I believe that God is on your 145 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,040 side and He wants to build the marriage of your dreams. 146 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,760 I want to speak to every leader out there. 147 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:02,320 You know, being a leader, especially a Christian leader or 148 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,440 influence or a content creator. I want to talk to you. 149 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,320 If you're going to be a leader in one area, that translates to 150 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:15,520 every area. We cannot be the kind of leaders 151 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,600 who are bold and leaning on the promises of God when we are 152 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,840 preaching and not leaning on the promises of God or having bold 153 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,960 faith for our marriages. We need to lead people well. 154 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:31,480 We need to lead them away from divorce and destruction and 155 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,440 despair and tell them that God is actually partnering with them 156 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,920 to build a marriage of their dreams. 157 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,040 I am believing that today you're going to get some keys to build 158 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,240 your marriage. I needed those keys. 159 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:51,600 I knew what I didn't want to do, but I had no idea how to build a 160 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,800 healthy, strong marriage. And today we're going to sit 161 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,080 down with my daughter-in-law and we're going to talk about some 162 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,280 of the lessons I learned the hard way so you do not have to 163 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,760 make the same mistakes in your marriage. 164 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:11,520 Are Christians giving up on their marriages too quickly? 165 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,080 And why does doesn't even matter? 166 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,840 Why am I even putting in Christians into that? 167 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,280 I mean, aren't we all free to just do whatever we want? 168 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,360 Doesn't God just want us to be happy? 169 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,880 You know, recently I was out with a friend and we began to 170 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:30,520 talk and she shared with me how two major Christian voices had 171 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,960 decided, hey, you know what? I I'm just not fulfilled. 172 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:35,960 I'm just not enjoying my marriage right now. 173 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:40,320 And it made me think back to a moment when John they were 174 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,400 married for about four years. Actually, we might have only 175 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,440 been three years and we didn't have kids yet and we were having 176 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,960 a hard time. And this couple that we really 177 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,360 looked up to this couple that talked about how God had put 178 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,680 them together, how she had prayed him him and toward her 179 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:00,080 life. And he said she's the only one 180 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,200 for me and their whole their whole ministry platform was 181 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,720 about this. And then suddenly they get 182 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,400 divorced and it's a very hateful public divorce. 183 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,880 And I was like, wait a minute, if they're not going to make it, 184 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,720 can we make it? Can John and I make it? 185 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:24,560 And I have learned that when Christian leaders divorce, it 186 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:27,920 actually releases something into the congregation. 187 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,160 Just a few years later after that divorce, we were still in 188 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,360 the same church. And the pastor was like, you 189 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,320 know what? I kind of feel like my wife is a 190 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,880 Vashti, not an Ester. I think I'm going to have to put 191 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,600 her away and I'm going to have to upgrade. 192 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:48,040 And divorce spread through that entire congregation like it was 193 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,560 a plague. Do we have as Christian couples, 194 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:57,880 do we have the right to divorce? And when is it right to divorce? 195 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,120 These are the things we're going to be actually discussing today. 196 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,880 I believe that marriage is more than a contract. 197 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:10,000 Marriage is a covenant. Contracts shrink your life, 198 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:14,600 covenants enlarge your life. And covenants aren't made just 199 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,080 between two people. God is the one who makes US1. 200 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,960 It's a, it's a covenant between God and the husband and his 201 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,320 wife. And God actually gets involved 202 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,560 in our marriages. And this is actually a really 203 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,800 important topic to me because when there's a breakdown in the 204 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,680 marriage, there's a breakdown in the family, kids find themselves 205 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:42,120 in a place of questioning everything when their parents 206 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,400 say, yeah, you know what? I'm just not feeling like I I 207 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,960 need my husband anymore. And you know, Christian, you and 208 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,680 I were talking earlier about a crazy, crazy stat. 209 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,720 Like I actually thought maybe the person that shared it with 210 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,800 me initially had made it up. I would have second that. 211 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,520 I thought oh she got the number wrong for Lisa but no. 212 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,440 I looked it up and it's shocking. 213 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,320 It says that if you have a direct friend that gets a 214 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,760 divorce, you are 75% more likely to get one yourself. 215 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:10,360 Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. 216 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:13,080 I mean, So what, what? In case you're wondering, we're 217 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,480 talking about a friend group. So in a friend group, if one of 218 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,800 your friends like, yeah, you know what, I'm going to get 219 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:24,320 divorced, 75% more likely that somebody else in that group is 220 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,800 going to follow their pattern. So I guess we need to say if we 221 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,320 decide to stay in our marriages, I wonder what the percentage 222 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,640 would be that says, hey, I can I can find, I can find a hope to 223 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:38,080 to move forward beyond some stuff. 224 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,680 And again, we're not talking about abuse and we're not 225 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:44,960 talking about adultery. We're talking about usually it's 226 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,200 people saying we just feel like we've grown apart. 227 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,520 I just feel like he doesn't celebrate me the way I deserve 228 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,400 to be celebrated. What about my dreams? 229 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:58,080 I've been home with the kids. And what about me or husbands? 230 00:13:58,080 --> 00:13:59,600 Like I'm going to upgrade my wife. 231 00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:02,920 I, I, you know, I, I kind of this one was the one that he 232 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,080 used for bearing children. Now I want one that's a trophy 233 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,440 wife so that I can hang out at the Country Club living my best 234 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,560 life, after which I'm just always like, I don't even want 235 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:15,880 to meet your wife. I'm sorry, not that I hang out 236 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,360 at the Country Club, but sometimes John does play in golf 237 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:19,880 tournaments and I'm like, you know what? 238 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,080 You look like the upgrade you you you did not bear any of 239 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:25,120 these children. I know you. 240 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,520 But but yeah, it's, it's a thing, Christian. 241 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,000 So what do you do when you're in a season? 242 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,880 Because it sounds like you're tapping on something that could 243 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,000 have been prevented within a marriage. 244 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,680 And I love how raw and open you are with your boys and then with 245 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,440 your daughter in law's too, of like, hey, there is actually 246 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,360 times where John and I didn't like each other. 247 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,920 What do couples do when they're in that season so they don't end 248 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,000 up in that category? Yeah, well, I probably could 249 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,280 have more examples of what not to do. 250 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,440 But the truth is, is how, you know, my parents divorced, they 251 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,240 remarried and then they divorced again. 252 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,160 And so I knew that I did not, I did not see either of my 253 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,280 parents, I'll be honest with you, happier after their 254 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,360 divorces. It it wasn't like the divorce 255 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,240 solved a problem. They both both were broken 256 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,520 people that brought that brokenness into a marriage and 257 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,800 expected the other person to fix something that only God can fix. 258 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,640 And so when you look to the other person to be something the 259 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,720 only Jesus can be for you, you're going to be disappointed. 260 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,040 And so marriage doesn't make you whole. 261 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,360 Marriage actually is a catalyst for growth. 262 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,040 You know, I hear people say that, you know, marriage isn't 263 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:43,680 to make you happy, it's to make you holy. 264 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,680 I feel like it's to make you both, you know, I feel like in 265 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:53,200 this opportunity for growth, but having someone in your life who 266 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,480 sees you at your best and at your worst is an incredible 267 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,200 asset. And and if we don't understand 268 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,560 the process of marriage, it becomes a liability. 269 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,640 Hey, I am so excited. The Fight for Female Reclaiming 270 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,360 our Divine Identity book is now available. 271 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,920 I am so excited that you can get your hands on this message. 272 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,240 It is filled with practical wisdom and conversation. 273 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,160 So many people are like, Lisa, thank you so much. 274 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,520 I didn't know how to say or what to say. 275 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,200 And so I'm hearing the reviews. Super exciting. 276 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,480 You can grab your copy today on Amazon. 277 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,160 So, you know, when going back a little bit further, you know, 278 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,200 when I married John, and this is something that John talks about 279 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,440 a lot, when I married John, I did not know that I had 280 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,400 inherited somebody who was addicted to pornography and 281 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,360 masturbation. I did not know that that was 282 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,800 coming into my marriage. And he thought getting married 283 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,680 was going to fix that. And so we get married and he's 284 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:01,160 bringing in something that I'm unaware of and and there's a 285 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:08,240 disconnect where two beautiful young people, 2223 we're in the 286 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,079 shape of our life. Already believers? 287 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:17,079 Already believers but not understanding the power of 288 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:22,520 covenant or the power of mishandling your sexuality 289 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,359 before marriage. And So what happened was when I 290 00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:28,400 when I actually I could feel that something was wrong 291 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,200 Christian, but I I didn't know and then finally I confronted 292 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:32,840 it. I finally confronted it. 293 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:41,520 John admitted it and I remember I felt shame like why did I 294 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,120 think if I had been and I had been promiscuous before I got 295 00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:45,960 married. I thought, well, why did I think 296 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,760 I deserve better? Well, first of all, it was never 297 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,320 about me. John had brought that pattern 298 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:57,400 into our relationship. And so I, you know, I have a lot 299 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,760 of people that are like, wow, John got free. 300 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,800 How did you help him? I'm sorry, I didn't. 301 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,320 I didn't help him at all. If anything, I hurt the 302 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,520 situation because I didn't understand a principle that I 303 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,280 know. Now when you get married and a 304 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,320 person brings a problem in, you're no longer going to say, 305 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,720 well, that's your problem. Like I'll give you an example 306 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,080 that's not emotionally charged. When I got married to John, I 307 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,000 got a phone call shortly after that from a bank and the bank 308 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:29,080 said, hey, guess what? Your first payment on your 309 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,600 college loan is due. And I was like, what? 310 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,080 I didn't take out a loan. And they said, yeah, you did. 311 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,840 I was like, I I promise I did not take out a college loan. 312 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:42,360 I don't have a loan. And my dad had had me sign 313 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:47,200 something and he took out my loan, my college loan in my 314 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:48,760 name. I think if I'd known that I 315 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,120 would not have majored in suntanning, I would have really 316 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:54,600 gotten a good education. But I I get a call and now I 317 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:59,280 have to start paying. And you know what John said? 318 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,640 Well, your debt is my debt. And so we paid that off 319 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:04,400 together. He didn't say, well, you just 320 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,880 lost all your spending money. He said, all right, you know, we 321 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,800 didn't know this was going to be our situation, but the weight on 322 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,000 you and the blessing on you, they're both, they're both ours 323 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,160 together. And so he helped me pay off that 324 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,240 debt. I did not help him with any kind 325 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,600 of moving towards freedom. If anything, he needed affection 326 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,080 from me. And I withheld affection from 327 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,800 him. I felt, I felt like, why did I 328 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,200 think I deserve better? I can't believe you did this. 329 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,360 You're supposed to be AI mean. I felt all of these stuff. 330 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,960 But if I had to approach it now, and when I do speak to young 331 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,240 couples now, I say if it's a problem for him and you're 332 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,040 married, it becomes a problem for both of you. 333 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,800 So I'm not saying you caused the problem, but I am saying it's 334 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:49,840 important. You're part of being the answer. 335 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,200 And it's not that you have to fix it. 336 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,640 It's just that it's affecting both of you. 337 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,800 So it's good to fight this together. 338 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,560 So having that mindset that as a couple year one and the problem 339 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,320 is on the other side of the table is a, is a big way of 340 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,200 looking at things that I probably took about 10 years to 341 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,960 learn, unfortunately. And so, you know, going back to 342 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,360 the seasons where we had, we had hardship where John's Italian, 343 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,160 I'm Sicilian, I'm stubborn, he's pretty stubborn too. 344 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:27,480 And we had a standoff where I took off my engagement ring. 345 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,960 And refused to wear it for 18 months, For 18 months. 346 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,680 I said we are married, but we're not engaged. 347 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:33,880 And he was like, what does that even mean? 348 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,000 I'm like, I am committed to my marriage, but I am not engaged 349 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,600 with you personally. And, and so every time he would 350 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,480 look at me, he would take my hand and look at it and see that 351 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,800 I had a wedding band on, but not an engagement ring. 352 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,360 I'd be like, that's right, That's right. 353 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,400 And that was not helpful. That was not helpful. 354 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,080 And I just remember thinking, it's 18 months, it's not worked 355 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:56,680 yet. This is not helping. 356 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,320 And so I'm home. I'm crying out to God. 357 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,240 I'm like, God, do you see how John travels? 358 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,080 Do you see how he talks to me? You see how we get him when he's 359 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,680 tired? We get him. 360 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,560 Do you see he gives his best to the ministry and his worst to 361 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,400 his family. And I like I brought all these 362 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:20,480 things and you've been married long enough to know that you can 363 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,120 come to God about anybody else and the only person he talks to 364 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:26,360 you about is you. I'm like, that's not fair. 365 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:30,280 I'm not the problem. So so I'm crying out to God and 366 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,360 I heard tell me I'm enough for you. 367 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,760 And at first Christian, I said, no, I know how this goes. 368 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,400 If I tell God he is enough for me, that means John's not going 369 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,160 to change. And so I was like, you're, I 370 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:43,240 don't want you to be enough for me. 371 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,920 I want John to be enough for me. And things just kept getting 372 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,960 worse and worse. And finally in a moment where I 373 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,600 was worshipping, God is playing worship music, I just broke. 374 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,720 And I said, all right, God, you're, you're not just enough 375 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,440 for me. You're more than enough for me. 376 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,240 And when I made that God connection, that God was my 377 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,600 source of life, not John. I actually, to be honest with 378 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,960 you, I actually came back to a place where I was no longer a 379 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,840 victim and I actually had power. I had power to love. 380 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,600 I had power to choose. I wasn't dependent on John's 381 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,200 action. And at the same time, God was 382 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,360 working on John and and John came home from a trip from 383 00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:22,840 Sweden. It's like a marker moment. 384 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:25,720 And I picked, he asked me to pick him up from the airport. 385 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,640 And I thought he was just going to yell at me the whole way home 386 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,600 from the airport and tell me how I'm not enough or I'm not doing 387 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,960 this. And I picked him up and he said, 388 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,600 I am so sorry, I am so sorry. And it was this moment where my 389 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:44,320 heart had become tender and his heart had become tender and and 390 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:49,000 we decided that we were going to start focusing on one another's 391 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,760 strengths rather than attacking one another's weaknesses. 392 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,080 That's so powerful. So I'm hearing you say is no, 393 00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:59,720 your needs weren't changed. They weren't being that you 394 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,320 changed. And so would that be your advice 395 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,320 to couples that like she's saying, I don't feel like I'm 396 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,560 enough. I am home with the kids 24/7. 397 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,760 You would tell her, hey, before you want to see him change, you 398 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,080 have to change something yourself. 399 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,840 You have to go. To God, yeah. 400 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,240 And I mean, that's a good question. 401 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,800 I don't want to say you're not. You're already feeling like 402 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,880 you're doing too much and it's never enough. 403 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,240 And I'm telling you, do more. Yeah. 404 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,440 No, I'm not. I don't be better. 405 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,960 I'm not saying that to be happy. To be happy, you domestic slave. 406 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,520 No, I'm not saying that at all. I am just saying there comes a 407 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,720 place where we realize that our fulfillment is never going to be 408 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,280 found in being a mother, being married, having a career. 409 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,600 But our fulfillment comes from God. 410 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:51,320 And when I get my fulfillment from God, it it keeps me from 411 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,360 being vulnerable to looking to other people to meet needs. 412 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,080 That's what I would say. And, and you know, there was a 413 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,640 time I felt like I was surviving my marriage and my children 414 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,320 rather than enjoying them. And, and that's not fun. 415 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:10,680 And I do feel like a lot of women are so focused on what 416 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,280 they're not having in that season that they're missing what 417 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,280 they do have in that season. And I'm hearing you say this too 418 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,960 is like it gives you a strength back when you put that that 419 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,920 place of allowing God to be that strength that allows you to see, 420 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,960 well, I can speak life into this man. 421 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,720 I can ask God to bless him and do things on his behalf that I 422 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,120 don't even yet see. And I think that's so powerful. 423 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,600 And I think there is power and transparency, like hearing 424 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,280 stories from like, I look up to your marriage and hearing we 425 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,040 didn't get it right or we learned this. 426 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,040 And I think that's something that we need to infuse in the 427 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,160 church. And I don't know if maybe some 428 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,800 of these people that have gotten a divorce, they think, well, my 429 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,960 friend did get a divorce or I don't know any other way. 430 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,520 What would you hope to see within church communities, 431 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,960 within friend groups, to help eradicate this or to give those 432 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,400 testimonies place of empowerment? 433 00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:09,320 But there is another way. I do think you mentioned a key 434 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,880 right with what you said. We need to find the women who 435 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,840 are married well, but I'm not that are like they're not doing 436 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,920 it perfect, but they're doing it well. 437 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,560 And then we find those women and they could be on their second 438 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:23,440 marriage. So is it? 439 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,760 I'm not even saying that they need to do everything perfectly. 440 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,120 I'm saying they need to do it well. 441 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,000 And for me, I remember I was in the season of incredible 442 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,240 frustration with John and I remember I remember calling my 443 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,200 mom, which is can I just say this? 444 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,000 Don't, don't do it. Don't do it. 445 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,200 Calling my mom who had been divorced twice, who had a deep 446 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:49,560 wound towards men and complaining about my husband to 447 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,080 my mother who already was angry at men. 448 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,600 And she started saying things like, I didn't, I didn't raise 449 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,280 you to be treated like this. I raised you and and I'm 450 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,280 listening to it. And it was the craziest thing, 451 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,480 Christian. I had the phone on one ear and 452 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,680 it was like the Holy Spirit started speaking to me in the 453 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,880 other ear. And he said, don't ask your 454 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,440 mother for directions unless you want to go where she is. 455 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,080 And I thought, Oh my gosh, I need to talk to somebody else. 456 00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:23,080 So I listened to her and I said, you know what, Mom, I'm so sorry 457 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,240 I brought you in where you feel like you have to choose between 458 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,160 us. I know you want to protect me. 459 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,760 And, you know, honoring her in that in that space, she was 460 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,600 speaking out of her pain and her her past. 461 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,720 But then I picked up the phone and I called a woman who had 462 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,560 built a very different life. And I said, I am not asking you 463 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,760 to choose sides. I want my marriage to work. 464 00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:48,960 And whatever I'm doing right now isn't working. 465 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,400 What would you say to me? And she gave me advice on how to 466 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,120 build. Not long ago, not long ago, I 467 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:00,880 met up with a friend that I hadn't seen in a while. 468 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,280 And we were sitting in the car. And I don't, I mean, and I love 469 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,480 that she trust me with her heart, so I'm not, but I hope 470 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,400 this doesn't sound like a betrayal of a trust. 471 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,320 She just started to, to really build a case of why she was 472 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,680 unhappy with her husband. I mean, she had like an itemized 473 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,800 list. Like I felt like she like had a 474 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,240 spreadsheet somewhere. And she, I'm, I mean, I'm 475 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,320 sitting and she's like this, this and this and this. 476 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,520 And I said this and I said that and I said this and he did this 477 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:35,040 and he did that and I listened to her and I said, do you want 478 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,680 to stay married? I said, because it sounds like 479 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,800 you're building a defense for a divorce. 480 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,760 And she just like looked at me and it was like I shocked her. 481 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:49,920 And I said, no, I'm, I'm, I'm being serious. 482 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,960 It sounds like you're are you've built an entire case and your 483 00:27:54,960 --> 00:28:00,360 husband is under the weight of an itemized list of infractions 484 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,040 and there is no new beginning and there is no New Hope. 485 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,560 And Christian, she started crying and she said, Oh my gosh, 486 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,120 you're right. She said, I love my husband. 487 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,040 I want to stay married. Oh my gosh. 488 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:24,480 And I said, well, if I was him, I would think, no, that you've 489 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:29,480 buried me under a pile of rubble of all of my past failures, past 490 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,280 mistakes. And and now I can't, I can't 491 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,200 find my way out. And she just like started 492 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:36,600 crying. And she told me, she said she 493 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,440 went home and she said, I'm taking all of this, I'm throwing 494 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,920 it away. I love you. 495 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,960 And I but you know what? She was like me, her parents 496 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,880 have been divorced. And when, when you when you've 497 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,040 gone through something and, and people try to say it's not 498 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,800 tragic, it's like, oh, the parents should be happy. 499 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:02,720 When you are a child whose parents have gotten divorced, it 500 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,200 hits you on a core level that you as a child cannot even 501 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,920 explain. And you, you do things because 502 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,160 of that, that you don't even know that you're doing because 503 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,440 of that. And, and so we have to decide, 504 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,320 do you want to build a marriage? Do you want to build a legacy? 505 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,640 Or do you want to exercise your right to divorce? 506 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,040 And what is that? What like, what are the grounds 507 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,600 for divorce? You know, I, I met a woman when 508 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,920 John and I, I think I was pregnant actually with Arden, I 509 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:43,600 met a woman who in my opinion, had every grounds for divorce. 510 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:49,360 She and her husband, he was a youth pastor and they had I 511 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,320 think three sons. And one day the police show up 512 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,680 at her house and her 16 year old son answers the door and the 513 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,600 policeman explains that her husband had just been arrested 514 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,600 for soliciting a male police officer for homosexual 515 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,800 homosexual encounter. And her son heard it, was 516 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,600 devastated. And so she came to the church 517 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,880 and the church told her, if you divorce your husband, we will 518 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,560 come alongside you. If you stay with him, we will 519 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,640 push you outside. And so she, she was like, I, I 520 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,600 don't like, she felt betrayed by her husband. 521 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,320 She felt like the church was giving her an impossible choice. 522 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,720 So she took it to prayer and she said that God told her, he said, 523 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,440 you have scriptural grounds to leave your husband. 524 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,400 And if you want to leave your husband, I will bless you. 525 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,560 I will bless you, I will take care of you. 526 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:47,400 I'll make sure your needs are met. 527 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,320 But if you choose, if you choose, say it's a choice, If 528 00:30:53,320 --> 00:31:01,400 you choose to stay with him and restore him and love him and 529 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,840 bring healing in his life, I will doubly bless you. 530 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:11,720 And I got to meet her in her season of double blessing. 531 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,640 They had grandkids now their life. 532 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,400 I mean, I could never, you would never have known that had been 533 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,240 their history. We're taking 20 years down the 534 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,000 road. And this was a woman who loved 535 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,200 well and chose. We don't have to divorce because 536 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,120 of unfaithfulness. We can. 537 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,280 Jesus knows that's a betrayal that feels so intimate, so 538 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,160 wounding. But there's people that have 539 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:44,000 chosen to stay in a marriage and they have built a new dynamic, a 540 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,040 new legacy. And then there's people that 541 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,520 have divorced and chose to leave their marriage for much less, 542 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,960 right? Having no scriptural grounds. 543 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,160 So I love that we're getting into the wise, why not the yes 544 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,040 and the nose for divorce. But I think it's important to 545 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,840 ask a question that I'm sure especially people that happen 546 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,840 divorce are thinking right now, does God hate me if I have a 547 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,920 divorce? Does God hate divorce? 548 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:14,040 I mean, we look at Malachi 216. Why are we even talking about 549 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,400 this? Because I know like you said, 550 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,840 you've seen this first hand. You knew you didn't want to go 551 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,040 through it. Are we shaming people that have 552 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,120 a divorce or are we trying to say there is more and there's a 553 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,680 better way and this is painful? Yes, yes. 554 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,040 Well, and I'm when God says I hate divorce, he doesn't say I 555 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,360 hate divorced people. And, and I think that's such an 556 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,520 important thing to clarify. And then he says why he hates 557 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,720 divorce. He said it takes two people, two 558 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,960 people that have become one and tears them. 559 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,680 So God says I hate divorce and Jesus talked about and again, 560 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,080 I'm I'm taking the message translation because it says that 561 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:59,800 Jesus said God created the organic union of the two sexes 562 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,120 and he says don't desecrate his heart. 563 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,000 I just, I mean, I'm like, Oh my gosh, marriage is a art that can 564 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,720 either be desecrated or can be celebrated. 565 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,960 And and then we also, you know, we read Malachi, what does God 566 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,000 want from marriage? And he says godly children. 567 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,840 So a lot of people think, oh, he just wants us to reproduce. 568 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,440 Well, actually marriage is a catalyst of growth to make us 569 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:33,360 children of God as well as to produce beautiful babies. 570 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,760 So true, true, true, true, true, true. 571 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,240 OK, so you, but you did say, look, there are some people that 572 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,880 are going to find themselves maybe with unbelieving partners, 573 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,760 maybe with partners that have walked away or the abuse or the 574 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,800 affairs have gone on for so long. 575 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,560 So what would you, what would you say to encourage them 576 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,360 typically so they don't feel like, Oh well, God hates me 577 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,440 because I got a divorce? Again, first of all, God doesn't 578 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,240 hate you because you have a divorce and it actually says if 579 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,280 you have and the Scripture makes a provision, if you have an 580 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:13,280 unbelieving partner and they choose to depart, you let them 581 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,520 depart because God has called you to peace. 582 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,800 I do think we kind of, we kind of run these two different 583 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:24,960 tensions of divorce as the unforgivable sin and divorce as 584 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,840 the easy out. I feel like we, we have, we've 585 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,440 got to learn to navigate the tension of when you go through a 586 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,080 divorce, it is something you go through. 587 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,239 It's not something you are for the rest of your life. 588 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,480 I mean, so many women, they'll say I'm divorced. 589 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,840 I'm like, no, no, a divorce is something that happens. 590 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,000 It's not something that you are. You're single. 591 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,800 Like the first thing you tell me, it's not that you've been 592 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,440 either rejected or had to reject somebody or break a contract. 593 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,520 You're single. And then if I, if I am worthy of 594 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,360 hearing more of your story, so be it. 595 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,160 And, and again, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not shaming people that 596 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,160 say that, but I feel like it does come like a label. 597 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,840 And I yeah, I don't like, I don't like the, the label. 598 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,960 I remember when I married John, his parents said, oh, her 599 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,920 parents are divorced. We've never had divorce in our 600 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,800 family. And I was like, what? 601 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,600 That's not my name. That's not my. 602 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,840 That's not my name. I'm not bringing divorce, but I 603 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,240 but having said that, I think they were concerned I would quit 604 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:36,200 and I, you know, going back to that stat, you know, I had four 605 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:42,760 friends in my 40s and two of them ended up divorced and two 606 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,800 of us stayed married. But you know, at the dinner 607 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,600 table, I remember the conversations, the the 608 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,440 conversations that they would have about their husbands and 609 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,800 all men are this and men are that. 610 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,880 And I had to tell John, I don't think I can be friends with him. 611 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,800 And he's like, why? I said, well, because I, I leave 612 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,000 happy with you and I come home mad at you and you didn't even 613 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,000 do anything. And I'm just hearing all this 614 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,040 stuff other people's husbands are doing. 615 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,080 I'm like, you're right. Oh man, I was like, I, I 616 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,320 wouldn't be, I wouldn't be great with you hanging out with guys 617 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,040 that talked about right women that way. 618 00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:22,200 So I and you know, Christian, it was hard. 619 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,280 I had to go to a place of solitude and be alone because I 620 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,400 was fighting for my marriage in that season. 621 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,600 I wasn't fighting for a reason to quit. 622 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,400 I was fighting for a reason to dream again and to build. 623 00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:38,680 So I never, I never, I never planned on divorcing, but I, I 624 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:44,400 did plan on maybe living in a marriage that was less than what 625 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,160 my hope was. And then there came a place 626 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,560 where I was like, rather than being so acquainted with 627 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,160 disappointment, I'm going to dream again of my marriage. 628 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,760 I'm going to believe that we can rise and build and we don't have 629 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,680 to live pulling all the weight of the past into our present. 630 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,760 How did you do that? How did you separate in your 631 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,600 mind what you saw around you, what you knew to be a very real 632 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,600 option 2 times? How did you actually make that 633 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,760 distinction of this is how I'm going to fight for my marriage? 634 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,280 These are the things that I would encourage other women that 635 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,120 feel like they're in that season of will it get better? 636 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,480 Yeah. What should they do? 637 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:29,000 Yeah, well, I love to read more than I can even explain. 638 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,080 And I had read this book and it was there's Heinz Kit in our 639 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:35,960 high places. And then the Part 2 is Mountains 640 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,400 of Spice. And I remember there was a story 641 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,720 where a girl was really willful and she was like, I'm going to 642 00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:46,040 marry who I want to marry. And she marries somebody and 643 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,720 she's not in submission to to the shepherd. 644 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,560 She's like, I will marry whoever I want. 645 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:59,080 And she finds herself in a place of bitterness and anger and 646 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,480 she's blaming herself. And she's going through 647 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,520 different things. And he actually says to her, 648 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,840 your path to the high places is going to be different. 649 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,800 It's going to be through this hardship in your marriage in in 650 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,680 your situation. And you know, we all like the 651 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,640 idea of a hardship that is like a mountain that we climb. 652 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,840 But we forget there's mountains in our marriages. 653 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,080 There's mountains with our children. 654 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,240 There's mountains in our dynamics of the things between 655 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:27,880 the things that God's calling us to do and the, the reality of, 656 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,240 of reaching those things. And so for me, I, instead of 657 00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:36,560 trying to change John, I decided I needed to change. 658 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,320 You know, the truth is we cannot control how people respond to 659 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:42,480 us. We can only control how we 660 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:47,400 respond to them. And I was not responding well. 661 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,600 And it's kind of this form of taking back your power where 662 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,160 you're like, I will not be controlled by everybody else's 663 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,560 inaction or actions or words or and I said, what is my marriage? 664 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,920 Because we had talked very early on the of what we wanted to 665 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,640 build. And I had to go back to the 666 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,400 early plan, like before we got busy, before we had kids, before 667 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,360 ministry overwhelmed us. What did I want to build? 668 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,720 And I had to go back to that. And then I and John had always, 669 00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:20,440 John had always wanted a beautiful, strong marriage. 670 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:28,200 But his parents, they, they loved each other in and were 671 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,120 consistently faithful. But they, they, they, they 672 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:33,800 didn't build the marriage we wanted to build. 673 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,680 So neither of us had an example. Neither of us had, OK, this is 674 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,200 what it looks like. And in all of its struggles or 675 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,400 in all of its joys. And so we just kind of started 676 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,240 to dream again. And instead of saying what I 677 00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:49,240 didn't like, I started to say, this is what I'd like. 678 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:50,960 Like, what are you, what are your thoughts on this? 679 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:52,680 Like what is your hope for our marriage in a year? 680 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,760 What is your hope for our marriage in five years? 681 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,280 You know what, what do you what can we do together? 682 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,680 Like what can we and and instead of using the couple days I had 683 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,160 home with him a month complaining about the times he 684 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,600 wasn't home, I started to enjoy him instead of survive him. 685 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,960 Wow, enjoy your husband instead to survive him. 686 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:19,360 I do think that people give up too quick and then they carry 687 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,440 the problems that they already had in their lives into the next 688 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:23,960 marriage. What did they say? 689 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,040 They say people that are on their their second marriage is 690 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,160 something like 80% more likely. Yeah, we have some stats right 691 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:30,520 here. Oh. 692 00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:32,440 Good 'cause I feel like I'm making up stats again. 693 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,080 Hey, you've been really you've been right so far. 694 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,360 You're one for one, it says that 43% of first time marriages 695 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:44,720 fail, 60% of second time marriages and 73% of third time 696 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:47,760 marriages. And so to me that communicates 697 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,720 that if divorce is presented as a solution is really not, 698 00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:57,600 because it only further exasperates the issues the more 699 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,600 you try to use that as. Well, if you think the person is 700 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,080 the problem, you get rid of the person. 701 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,520 You don't deal with the problem right. 702 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,440 And the same problems happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 703 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:08,800 It's kind of that saying everywhere I go, there I am. 704 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,480 I'm just taking out with me wherever I go. 705 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,760 And, and I would say that I also read this Boston University 706 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,600 study where they interviewed couples that weren't really in a 707 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,120 challenging season in the marriage where they're like I we 708 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,160 are not getting along. We are not enjoying each other. 709 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,520 We're not sleeping, we have our kids, we're not having sex, 710 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,440 whatever. Whatever the challenge was, was 711 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,480 financial. Maybe it was communication. 712 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,560 And they did the study with this couple who said I'm going to 713 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,960 rank my marriage as bad five years later. 714 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:42,800 They said it was good and it but it was a commitment to we're 715 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,480 going to grow through a season. It's that whole in sickness and 716 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,200 health and blessing. You know, like there's there's a 717 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,480 commitment and that's the beauty of marriage. 718 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:58,840 But I will say when when Christian leaders divorce and it 719 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,680 and again, maybe just to the outside, it looks for no reason. 720 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,800 I mean, I don't I don't know everybody's story. 721 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,040 It does kind of tear away the hope of others. 722 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:15,440 I, you know, John and I've been married 42 years now and you 723 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,520 know, I like it's just, it's, it's amazing. 724 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,560 And you know, I always tell John he's my favorite husband. 725 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,360 He's like, that's ridiculous. I'm your only husband. 726 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,400 I'm like, no, this is the version that I like the best. 727 00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:31,520 But people are people talk about that more to me then they talk 728 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,640 to me about my books for my sermons and they want to finish. 729 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,160 Well, and so, you know, I'm just going to say this. 730 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,720 If you're out there and you are saying, Hey, Lisa, I'm, I, I, I 731 00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:47,440 got divorced. I got divorced, I quit too easy. 732 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,400 I I just thought he was the problem and I, I'd never, I 733 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,080 never like dealt with my own thing. 734 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,240 Here's that beautiful thing. Like every single day is a new 735 00:42:57,240 --> 00:42:59,240 beginning. And maybe you're in this 736 00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:01,840 situation where you're considering divorce. 737 00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:06,720 I'm going to challenge you to stop looking at your husband or 738 00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:11,360 your wife as your source of joy. I'm going to ask you to lift 739 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,560 your gaze. I'm going to ask you to believe 740 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:18,080 that God actually joined the two of you together for a purpose. 741 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,080 For a purpose, you say, but I don't. 742 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,360 We just don't even get along. Five years from now, it could be 743 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:28,400 a completely different story, but you can either build a 744 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,280 legacy or you can say I'm I'm tapping out and the choice is 745 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,040 always going to be yours. God isn't going to force you to 746 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,040 stay in your marriage, but I do believe that marriage is 747 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:46,720 catalytic for our growth. So do you want to grow or do you 748 00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:49,360 want to run? And I think that's the question 749 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,640 we all need to ask ourselves. I'm going to just say when we 750 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,520 had the rough time in our marriage, I would say that the 751 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,440 first six years were challenging. 752 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,720 I think you're 8. We started to feel like we were 753 00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:06,480 growing and things got better. And then and then the ministry 754 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,040 consumed John and I had a competitor and I felt like I was 755 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,760 alone with kids. And the ministry was always, and 756 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,880 I would say up until the 15th year of our marriage, I often 757 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:22,240 felt very alone. But I'm so thankful that I had 758 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:27,200 older women that came alongside of me and said, Lisa, you can 759 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,040 lean into God, You can love John. 760 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,000 You can speak to his strengths instead of pointing out his 761 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,240 weaknesses. You guys are acting like enemies 762 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:39,200 rather than allies. Begin to build each other rather 763 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,760 than tear one another down. And 42 years in, I love my 764 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,400 husband more. And I want that for the next 765 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,520 generation. I want the stability of marriage 766 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,680 and the hope of legacy for each and everyone of you. 767 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,880 I believe that fighting for female has a lot to do with 768 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,640 fighting for marriage. I'm so thankful that you're 769 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,000 sharing on this as someone that's been married for four 770 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,760 decades because I know there's things that we come up again so 771 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,800 we don't have the answers for. We have friends that are in 772 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,080 those, you know, that five year season that do want a glimpse of 773 00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:13,200 or permission even to dream again. 774 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,280 So thank you for speaking on this and thank you for watching. 775 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,760 Make sure that you are subscribed so you never miss an 776 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,680 episode. And we love to hear from you, 777 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,280 like rate or review, and we will see you next time from the Fight 778 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:25,320 for Female podcast.