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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach 

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State. 
Repeat. 

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My name is. 
Dylan and my name's Hayden. 

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And this week, we are taking a 
deep dive into the world of play

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and continuous provision for our
learners. 

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I say we, we're not. 
Are we not me and you I? 

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Just didn't really fancy being 
there, no? 

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I didn't really want to do it, 
so I will be talking to Ruth 

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from my mummy teacher. 
She is a huge advocate for play 

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continuous provision, not just 
in the early years but 

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stretching that out even further
into key stage 1. 

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And basically we're going to be 
chatting about why it's really 

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important for our younger 
general generation to have that 

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ability to play and what we even
mean by play. 

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Not break time, not running 
around, just skipping rope. 

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Actual quality learning through 
play and. 

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Afterwards we'll be then 
reflecting and I get my chance 

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to have a say as well, if you 
want to listen to that. 

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I mean, you could just, you 
could honestly, I don't normally

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say this, but when we finish 
talking, you know, just. 

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You're going to kill the 
retention of the podcast here, 

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then this is not a good thing. 
Yeah. 

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So do stick around to the end to
hear my thoughts. 

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Yeah, on everything they talk. 
But I'll tell you what, you, it 

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will be genuinely really 
interesting because you've, even

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more so than I have spent so 
much of your career really at 

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the top of key Stage 2 at Year 
6, thinking about Sats and 

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Tests. 
And we talk about that as well 

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in the chat. 
It's a really, really good chat.

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I'm looking forward to you 
listening to it. 

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And we'll break it down after. 
But without further ado, let's 

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get chatting to Ruth. 
Hey, Ruth. 

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Thanks for joining us. 
Hi, Dylan, thank you so much for

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having me. 
I'm actually really excited 

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because Hayden's not here 
pestering me and trying to, you 

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know, get get those questions in
before I am. 

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So we're going to dive in today 
to your story, your background, 

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your your professional career as
a teacher and a leader. 

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What made you step away from 
that and your passion for play. 

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So before we get into all of 
that, if you wouldn't mind just 

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outlining to our listeners, what
is your story? 

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What did you do in school and 
what made you eventually think 

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I'm going to stop doing it now? 
Oh I love that. 

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So hopefully as it's just 
happened, the big banner fell 

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down behind me, but hopefully 
that won't happen. 

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I was so hoping we were 
recording. 

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I was going to get a little 
outtake and everything. 

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It's like doing the assembly, 
isn't it? 

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And you're standing in front of 
600 kids and then something 

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happens and then everything goes
to part. 

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But we used to it. 
We're teachers. 

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We think on athletes. 
We roll with it. 

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We. 
Adapt, we go on. 

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So my story is, is very much 
that I would take that word, 

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adapt, go on, and that would 
sort of lead me beautifully into

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my story. 
So I was a teacher, that's all I

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wanted to be. 
I always say this to people. 

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I am that girl that when I was 
seven years old, I asked my mum 

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and dad for a whiteboard for my 
birthday. 

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You know, like I didn't want a 
Tamagotchi or a cabbage pack 

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doll. 
I was literally like, I really, 

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really, really want a 
whiteboard. 

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Like one of those proper ones 
that you get from like a 

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stationary shop. 
And I used to play and, you 

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know, my dolls would sit down. 
I was pretending to be the 

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teacher. 
My brothers used to like I'm the

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eldest, so they probably hated 
me for it. 

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But you know they sit. 
Down I'm the teacher here. 

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Listen to me. 
Absolutely. 

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It's all I ever wanted to do. 
Basically became a teacher. 

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I taught in three schools and 
quite different. 

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Majority of them were in quite 
deprived areas. 

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We had a lot of the typical 
issues that you would have 

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within a school like that. 
I did teach in one sort of 

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affluent area as well. 
So got a sort of good span of 

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what it's like to be a child, 
what it's like to be a teacher 

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and loved my job, genuinely 
loved it. 

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I look back now that I'm out of 
teaching and realise, Oh my 

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goodness, how did I do what I 
did? 

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But if you'd have asked me at 
the time if I was like didn't 

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like my job or anything like 
that, I would have, I wouldn't 

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have even said like any. 
I'd have been like, I love it, I

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love it. 
This is what I do. 

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But now I look back and I 
realise, Oh my goodness, I was 

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living unlike no sleep 
OverDrive, like my nervous 

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system must have just been a 
wreck. 

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But I did love it, put 
everything into it and I didn't 

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want to leave. 
And the reason that I did leave 

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was I was a deputy head teacher 
and I was having my little boy 

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and I wanted to go back part 
time. 

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So this was like 5, well, nearly
six years ago, five, 5 1/2 years

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ago now. 
So I do think things have 

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changed slightly since then in 
terms of flexible working like I

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do here. 
There are there is like a 

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different stance. 
Ironically, actually the Academy

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chain that I worked for, they 
put on their LinkedIn a few 

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months ago that all flexible 
working policies will now be 

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accepted. 
This five years ago. 

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And my, the lady who was like my
head teacher, who I worked with,

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she sent it to me and I was 
like, Oh dear, five years too 

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late. 
But actually it wasn't five 

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years too late. 
Because this is, you know, it's 

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flexibility, it's adaptation. 
And, and life takes us on a 

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journey. 
Like I truly believe we are 

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where we're meant to be when 
we're meant to be. 

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So at the time when I requested 
part time I was basically told 

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it had to be full time or become
class teacher again. 

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So give up on my leadership 
position and now if you know me 

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well, then you'll know that 
that's not like I couldn't do 

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that. 
I was like, I've worked hard to 

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get to this position. 
Like this is what I want to do. 

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You're being penalised almost at
that point, aren't you, for for 

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starting a family and wanting 
some time back yourself? 

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100% and I would have done four 
days. 

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It's not like I was saying can I
come in one day a week and leave

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the school? 
I just needed a day that I could

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be with my son and not be doing 
like washing and this and that 

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and life and as it goes. 
So I said, OK, I'm going to 

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leave. 
I don't know what I'm going to 

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do, but I'm not going to come 
back. 

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And at the time that was so 
hard, like I think like for 

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myself, but my own development 
and your confidence is knocked. 

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You genuinely feel like, Oh my 
goodness, like I've given my 

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life to this school. 
I love it. 

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But some person and essentially 
like an ivory tower has made 

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this decision that like senior 
leaders can't work part time in 

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our trust and that's it. 
And you can't help but take it 

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personally. 
And I loved my kids, but 

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ultimately I loved my own SO 
even more. 

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And when? 
You when you say with you, it's 

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when you say that out loud. 
There are some people who listen

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to what you just said. 
There'll be some people out 

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there who think, well, yeah, you
know what? 

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You chose that, but, well, did 
you choose it? 

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Really. 
Like, should we even be in a 

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position where we're forcing 
professionals like yourself 

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who've worked so hard and gained
so much experience and clearly 

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would be amazing for children to
have four days a week? 

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You're still going to be 
fantastic at doing that. 

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It's it's so sad that we're kind
of forcing people out of the 

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profession, I feel like. 
And and it's a loss, isn't it? 

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Losing people like you in a 
school is a loss. 

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And we just, I'm, I'm so glad. 
Like, I know it's annoying five 

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years too late, but I'm so glad 
that schools are moving too. 

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Do you know what? 
We're in a retention crisis 

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right now. 
And if I'm going to just make an

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arbitrary rule up which just 
says, well, I don't fancy that. 

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Actually, I don't think we want 
that. 

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You're going to lose amazing 
people like yourself. 100% that 

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is, that is exactly what has 
happened. 

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Like I've seen so many amazing 
colleagues that have gone into 

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other things and it, and it is, 
it's awful. 

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Like it breaks my heart. 
And but yeah, everything happens

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for a reason. 
And I didn't know what I was 

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going to do, but I realised that
actually now I could do 

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anything. 
And that was quite liberating. 

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It's quite. 
Liberating, isn't it? 

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It's like, oh, wait a minute, I 
have got these professional 

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skills and these abilities, I 
can still apply them to 

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something else. 100% like I had 
those the few days where I sat 

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like, and then I was like, what 
are you doing, Ruth? 

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And it's evolved. 
So I worked in my second school.

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I worked for a head teacher who 
was brilliant, was amazing. 

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I don't think I realised at the 
time how much of an impact he'd 

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have on my life. 
But at that point I really 

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wanted to be key stage phase 
leader. 

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And I was class teacher and he 
like pulled me into his office 

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and he said the problem is like,
you don't know what your thing 

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is. 
He was like, I don't know what 

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what your thing is. 
Like what do you stand for? 

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What are you going to lead on in
education? 

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And I remember leaving his 
office and being like, what does

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he know? 
I'd be a great tell. 

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Me what I am and I'm not. 
But honestly, not like that 

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stuck with me. 
And I don't think I really knew 

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what my thing was because 
actually I was in a system. 

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I was doing what I was told to 
do. 

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And this became more apparent 
than ever in the very last 

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school where I worked where 
there was quite a few changes, 

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like we became academies, there 
was new leader. 

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It was a lot of things changed 
and the way that I'd always 

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ruined my classroom was very 
play based and I taught children

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who were, I had mixed year 12 
class at this point. 

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Some of those children that were
in my class developmentally were

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working around 3 years old if 
not younger and I had some 

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severe like complex needs in 
there. 

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I had children with English as 
an additional language. 

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I had children with like the 
most horrendous safeguard 

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situations that you could 
possibly think about, like their

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home life. 
I just cannot imagine what they 

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carry on their shoulders and 
would bring into that building 

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every single day. 
And through the way that I 

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taught them, honestly, like play
was so powerful and I genuinely 

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believe that being able to teach
my children in a play based way 

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was everything those children 
need. 

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It was their therapy, it was 
their opportunity and their 

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space away from whatever their 
home life was, regardless of 

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whether they were like in the 
affluent school or in the socio 

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economically deprived school. 
All children have home lives 

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that we can't even imagine 
behind those closed doors and 

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play. 
When we allow children to play, 

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the toys that they use are like 
their words and their play is 

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their language and it's how they
process. 

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So just like for you, for 
example, if you something sad 

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happens in your life or 
something amazing happens in 

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your life, we might go onto 
social media and we put a post 

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out and say something horrific 
happened to you. 

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Like, Oh my goodness, I can't 
believe this has happened. 

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It's made me feel like this. 
It gives you you've processed 

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it. 
I was feeling this. 

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I've put it out there in my 
words, however works for you now

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I feel better. 
And children need that too. 

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And the way that children do 
that is through play. 

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So it was so powerful for 
supporting them to just feel 

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regulated, to feel one, to 
almost just feel just right, to 

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be able to learn the best that I
could give them. 

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You know, I can't, I don't have 
a magic wand. 

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I can't wave this stick and, and
take everything away from them. 

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But I could do my best. 
I could give them the tools, the

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time and the space to just be 
into process. 

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So I felt like it was their 
therapy. 

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It made them feel good and 
that's what I wanted. 

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But also for these children, 
again, I had some really like 

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high Flyers. 
Like I've always remembered this

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one boy. 
I just again, like the 

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background that he came from, 
how incredibly intelligent he 

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00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,400
was and creative and smart on 
it. 

228
00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,640
I used to just say to him, I was
like you, you blow my socks off 

229
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,200
all the time. 
I'm like, you blown my socks off

230
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,200
again. 
Like it was just such a pleasure

231
00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:58,440
to have like a little impact on 
his life and push him, like be 

232
00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,600
able to push him in a way that 
was that was playful and joyful.

233
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:07,000
And so play as a vehicle for 
learning allowed me in that 

234
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:12,320
moment to really support my 
learners that were working to 

235
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,960
work towards that were 
definitely pre key stage that 

236
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,920
had been through early years, 
had been to nursery. 

237
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,600
But actually when they went to 
nursery reception early years, 

238
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,280
they weren't ready for that. 
Then they weren't ready. 

239
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,920
So they were in the building. 
You know, the teachers had done 

240
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,760
their best for them. 
But then they they'd come to 

241
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,400
year one and actually they 
essentially they needed another 

242
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,840
year of early years. 
They were then ready for early 

243
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,640
years. 
I'd be like, now you're ready 

244
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,760
for early years, but now you're 
in year one. 

245
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,040
Yeah, and I just was like, you 
know what, They need another 

246
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:51,960
year of early years. 
That's what I'm going to 

247
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,360
essentially give them. 
So I could be practical. 

248
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,160
My learning could be multi 
sensory. 

249
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,760
My learning didn't have to be 
like, you have to do this now, 

250
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,120
right now, because this is what 
I'm going to say you've got to 

251
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,960
do because that's the way it is.
My learning would be OK, go and 

252
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:09,720
do that. 
Then when you feel ready, let's 

253
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,200
have a go at this. 
And so I could support children 

254
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,600
to be more intrinsically 
motivated. 

255
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,600
I could teach them from the ages
of five. 

256
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,240
These are these children in my 
class who actually take some 

257
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,480
ownership over. 
I am going to have a go at that 

258
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,760
and I do want to do that and I 
am going to be a successful 

259
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,640
learner. 
But I just need to do XY and Z, 

260
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,040
get that out of my head or feel 
a little bit better and then I 

261
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:36,720
can commit to it and I'm going 
to get it done. 

262
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,760
And obviously there is a time 
and a place. 

263
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,640
So certain things in life or in 
learning or in a classroom, yes,

264
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,880
we have to do it here and then 
we have to do that. 

265
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,840
But actually, actually, 9 times 
out of 10, we can be more 

266
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,920
flexible. 
I want you to do the best you 

267
00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:01,160
can do and for me, you will do 
the best you can do when you're 

268
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,200
doing it, when you're ready to 
do it, however that looks or 

269
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,400
however that feels. 
So yeah, that was it basically. 

270
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,520
I saw that play was amazing for 
well-being. 

271
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,560
I saw that play was amazing for 
getting children to learn. 

272
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,520
I could push them through their 
play. 

273
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,760
I could help them become curious
independent learners more. 

274
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:21,800
They didn't need to be spoon fed
as much. 

275
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:27,200
Like the conversations were 
fantastic that I would hear and 

276
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,560
in allowed me to like really 
work with smaller groups and 

277
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,640
really push those children on as
well as really support my 

278
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,560
younger learners with the 
practical element and those 

279
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,480
sorts of things. 
So then I suddenly realised, 

280
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,840
well, play, play is my thing. 
I. 

281
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:45,760
That's my thing. 
You found it. 

282
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,200
I was like this is my thing. 
You should have run that head 

283
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:50,640
teacher up. 
I found it. 

284
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,360
I've got it. 
No, I do think like one day I'm 

285
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,080
like, maybe I should, maybe I 
should get in touch with them 

286
00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,600
and be like, you actually 
realised the impact you had. 

287
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,520
But. 
Even though I was doing my 

288
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,080
thing, even though I knew my 
thing was play. 

289
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,520
Now I realised play was my thing
when it got taken away. 

290
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,040
This. 
Is what I was going to ask. 

291
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,720
I realised that's like it was my
thing because I was just doing 

292
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,000
it. 
I didn't really know anything 

293
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,640
else. 
This is just how I did it. 

294
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,280
This is just what it was like we
had. 

295
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,040
Was it, was it just was it 
frowned upon? 

296
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,480
Was it banned? 
Was it, you know, was it someone

297
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,840
coming in and saying actually 
end goals? 

298
00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,040
You know, I'm looking at end of 
the school career. 

299
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:32,880
They're not going to be playing 
when they're in year 6. 

300
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,280
So, you know, they just get used
to it and get over it. 

301
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,280
Or was it just very much that's 
policy, Sorry, get over it. 

302
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,040
So we got taken over by an 
Academy. 

303
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:47,080
We had a new executive head and 
that's when for me, I suddenly 

304
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,280
realised, Oh my goodness, this 
is so hard. 

305
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,400
So obviously I was deputy head 
teacher, so I was within that 

306
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,040
school. 
I was that senior authority 

307
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,640
figure. 
I had to kind of follow the law 

308
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,440
of the land like this is the way
it was. 

309
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,120
But up until that point I've 
sort of been able to really put 

310
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,160
my own influence on it. 
So it was fine, you know, it was

311
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,480
great. 
And then they came in and it was

312
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:19,880
this like trust wide policy. 
So key stage 1 became so formal,

313
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,520
like I will never forget. 
I used to have this gorgeous 

314
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,440
little role play area in my 
classroom. 

315
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,800
It was handmade, it was from 
wood. 

316
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,720
It was literally like a wooden 
frame. 

317
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,600
And in there it was like we 
could just change it into 

318
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,240
whatever the children could make
it, whatever they wanted to do. 

319
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,800
And the one day she came in and 
she was like, why, why have you 

320
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,480
got why have you got a role play
class in area in a year one and 

321
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,880
two classroom? 
And I explained, like, you know,

322
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,800
some of these children can't 
even form a sentence speaking. 

323
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,120
How are we going to get them to 
write a sentence when they don't

324
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,080
even have chance to practise 
talking a sentence? 

325
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,960
And we've just been there to 
model that and help them with 

326
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,080
that and all those social skills
that they're learning, you know,

327
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,319
that's crucially what they need.
I just remember saying something

328
00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:08,160
like that that to her and she's 
like, well, that's not what they

329
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:14,119
need and that needs to go. 
So I had to take that out of my 

330
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,800
classroom. 
When you did that, sorry, when 

331
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,920
you, when you took down your 
class because I'm so fascinated 

332
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,000
by this because I think up and 
down the, the country, there's a

333
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,400
lot of teachers in this position
where they know their children 

334
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,280
best and they think This is why 
I'm doing it. 

335
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,200
But then they're told, well, 
there's a policy and although 

336
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,040
there might be 5 ways to do 
something, you're doing it this 

337
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,400
way and that's the end of it. 
How did, how did it make you 

338
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,280
feel Literally taking that down 
and taking out the classroom 

339
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,640
when you know full well there'll
be children in your room now in 

340
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,520
your class who won't get as much
out of your classroom as they 

341
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,080
did before. 
Like what did that make you feel

342
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,680
like? 
I remember going home to my 

343
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:53,920
husband and saying to him, I'm 
in a battle with my head and my 

344
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,800
heart because my head is saying 
this pays our bills. 

345
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:04,000
This is the dream job I always 
wanted, this is what I have to 

346
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,960
do. 
You also start to doubt 

347
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,480
yourself. 
Well, someone more senior is 

348
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,040
saying that actually that's not 
what they should have. 

349
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,520
So maybe I have got it wrong. 
Maybe that is what they need. 

350
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,720
And then my heart was saying 
like, don't be so ridiculous. 

351
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,560
That is not what they need. 
Like you're going to be failing 

352
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,200
these children. 
I know again, that's a massive 

353
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:32,040
word to say, but genuinely that 
is what I felt because I knew 

354
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,800
what they needed. 
And suddenly what they needed 

355
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,760
was I was told I had to take 
away. 

356
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,400
So there was a battle in my head
and my heart. 

357
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,760
And I just remember I used to 
say to my husband, I was like, 

358
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,560
this is my job, I'm going to 
work. 

359
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,160
It pays for nice things. 
I'm going to go on holiday. 

360
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,000
In my head, I was like, this is 
what it is like. 

361
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:03,120
I had to compartmentalise what I
believed inside of me, my heart,

362
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:08,000
and this is what I have to do. 
And you know, like the role play

363
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,120
was one example. 
And then the next thing to go 

364
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:13,760
was my gorgeous, like, creative 
area. 

365
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,240
So I had this really nice 
trolley where we'd put like, you

366
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,520
know, paints and art and the 
kids can go and access that 

367
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:26,280
whenever they needed to, or we'd
have groups over there and that 

368
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,640
had to go as well. 
And it all just started. 

369
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,280
And then things got introduced 
like they had to do whole class 

370
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,880
reading and they all had to sit 
on their chair or that was 

371
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,160
another one. 
I had like a group of children 

372
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,120
that were struggling with a 
maths concept. 

373
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:42,640
So I'd got them on the floor. 
I mean, we're just using 

374
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,240
something like little hair bears
to do it practically. 

375
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,080
And again, I remember this as 
clear as day. 

376
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,960
The executive head walked around
with the CEO and came into my 

377
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,720
classroom and saw me like on the
floor with these kids. 

378
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,160
And then after that, she was 
like, you don't ever sit on the 

379
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,160
floor again with them. 
Like why? 

380
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,160
Why? 
Why? 

381
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,840
Like honestly, it winds me up a 
bit because I just think to 

382
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,880
myself, there's two, there's two
prongs. 

383
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,960
This, I suppose one is as a 
professional teacher, like just 

384
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,720
leave me alone. 
Like I'm not, I'm not sat on the

385
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,800
floor to make a point at you. 
I'm sat on the floor because in 

386
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,720
this moment it's better for the 
children to be in this situation

387
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,880
helping me. 
But the second one I think of, 

388
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,440
and maybe this, when you had 
your children, you flipped 

389
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,160
slightly in your mind. 
I've got a 2 year old, a 2 year 

390
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,520
old son now. 
And I think about when my son 

391
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,920
goes to school, if he's in a 
situation like you just 

392
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,840
described on the floor doing 
some maths, I want that for him.

393
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,560
Everything you've described and 
taught so passionately about 

394
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,000
play, which was so nice to hear 
by the way, when you were 

395
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,160
talking about it a second ago, 
because you clearly a passion of

396
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,760
yours that's embedded in it 
being good for the children. 

397
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,160
And when I think about my own 
child, I want him in that 

398
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,720
environment when he can go and 
do role play for a minute if he 

399
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,920
needs to, where he can go to a 
creative section. 

400
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,840
And what, what I don't need is 
someone coming in telling the 

401
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,960
teacher that that that my son is
with all of the time what is and

402
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,640
is is is right and is wrong for 
them, especially when it's an 

403
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,760
opinion. 
And actually we can go even 

404
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,800
further and say it sounds as if 
from the the posts I've seen 

405
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,480
from you, it's not even an 
opinion. 

406
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,320
Play based learning is fantastic
for the children and that's what

407
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,080
frustrates me. 
Yeah, exactly. 

408
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,440
There is. 
There's noodles and oodles and 

409
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:21,840
oodles, the one of a better 
word. 

410
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,760
That is the weirdest word I've 
ever used. 

411
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,440
The executive head would not 
like you to use oodles actually.

412
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:29,480
Thank you. 
We won't be finding that 

413
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,720
dictionary. 
That is far too playful of a 

414
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,360
word. 
Playful words banned. 

415
00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:35,840
We don't want them. 
We don't want them anymore. 

416
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,280
We've got a list of 200 words 
and they're the only ones You 

417
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,080
can say thank you. 
And no, it's not on there. 

418
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,160
You can't tell me no. 
Oh. 

419
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,800
Geez. 
Yeah, exactly. 

420
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,040
So the, you know, the research 
behind play isn't just something

421
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,560
that's a nice to have or an 
extra aura. 

422
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,680
You know, this is something that
kids might enjoy. 

423
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,640
It's an enrichment opportunity. 
Don't get me started on that. 

424
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,000
I feel like there's so there's 
so much to break down here. 

425
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,120
I know. 
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 

426
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,120
Let's let's, let's stick to, 
let's stick to the research. 

427
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,920
Yeah, if, if you just think 
about them. 

428
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,680
OK, let's stick to for a second 
because I've got a question 

429
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,320
about the practicalities of it 
as well. 

430
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,160
So maybe we can do both here. 
Where one is the, the research 

431
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,480
seems to me from what I've seen 
and what I've seen you post and 

432
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,040
what I've gone away and read 
myself is that play based 

433
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,160
learning is a really good way, 
especially for younger children 

434
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,840
throughout key Stage 1, even 
even though it's not statutory. 

435
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,400
And we'll talk about your 
petition in a minute. 

436
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,280
It, it seems as if the, the 
research is saying this is a 

437
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:34,840
really good way for children to 
learn. 

438
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:39,440
Maybe it's my key stage 2 mind 
that comes into play here where 

439
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:40,920
we don't really have any play 
based learning. 

440
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,520
When I'm teaching my year fours 
or fives or sixes that I think 

441
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,360
to myself, that's fantastic and 
I completely agree with what 

442
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:49,280
you're saying. 
And I want my son in a room like

443
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,120
yours that you're describing. 
But how practical is it when 

444
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:57,560
when you do have freedom for 
children to go and play and 

445
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,920
explore and and do all the 
things they're doing as they go 

446
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,080
through year one and year 2, and
that gap tends to become wider? 

447
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,800
The lowest child and the highest
child attaining it sounds like 

448
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,120
you can hit them all. 
But how practical is it in a 

449
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:12,760
classroom? 
How can you make it happen? 

450
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:18,200
How can you do it effectively? 
OK, first of all, the biggest 

451
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,040
thing you need to know is that 
children are capable. 

452
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:27,400
Children are so capable when we 
allow them to be now traditional

453
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,720
teaching methods that we've all 
used that we've all had to that 

454
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:37,480
happens in our schools now is 
how England is they enable our 

455
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,080
children to you'll, you'll see 
like short term gains. 

456
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:45,720
So I can teach my children to a 
test essentially and the data 

457
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,680
will look good because I've 
taught them to this test and I 

458
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,160
have got that short term 
compliance, but it undermines 

459
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,360
that long term resilience, that 
long term well-being, that long 

460
00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:00,600
term engagement that I want to 
do. 

461
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,160
Whereas if I learn through a 
play based approach, that 

462
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,200
strengthens all of those things.
So actually you're saying, well,

463
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,560
how practical is it when a 
child's in year 2 or year three 

464
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,360
or year 4, if they've had a play
based approach to their learning

465
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:22,880
continued from early years, they
will be the most inquisitive, 

466
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:30,360
curious, like fascinated, 
problem solving, enriched 

467
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:36,400
children you could imagine. 
And when children are given the 

468
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:44,200
opportunity to learn rather than
be like, for want of that famous

469
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,880
quote, like an empty vessel to 
be filled, you see a shift in 

470
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,440
our children. 
So, you know, the research shows

471
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,040
that this has over 50 years of 
research. 

472
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,920
And it's not just within 
education, it's within 

473
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:03,880
neuroscience, it's within 
psychology, it's within 

474
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,480
education, it's within play. 
It all aligns. 

475
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,960
I've actually got a research 
document that I've put together 

476
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,880
for the petition and to to 
support people. 

477
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,480
So maybe we could pop that in 
absolutely. 

478
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,360
Show notes down below, we'll 
link to the petition and we'll 

479
00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:22,560
link to all that as well, 
definitely. 

480
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:25,680
Because people always say to me 
like, can I read this, this 

481
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:26,600
research? 
And I'm like, yes. 

482
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,120
You are. 
It's here. 

483
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,080
Please do. 
So I worked with one of my 

484
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,960
friends who's called Doctor 
Wills Apellini and we put this 

485
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,120
document together and so we can 
put that there. 

486
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:44,280
So in terms of how does it, how 
would it work, practically all 

487
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:49,360
children will be different. 
Now if tomorrow we suddenly went

488
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,440
OK, every classroom in the whole
school's play based, would it 

489
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,400
crash and burn and go to 
collapse and all the teachers be

490
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,120
like, Oh my God, what has 
happened? 

491
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,480
Probably yes, it would because 
children haven't been allowed to

492
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,240
learn in that way for at least 
the last like 15 years in key 

493
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,760
Stage 1 long. 
I don't think they've ever 

494
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,280
learned like that in key Stage 
2. 

495
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,040
But in some schools, there are 
schools, there's some amazing 

496
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:16,920
schools. 
I've done case. 

497
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,520
I've read case studies on them 
that actually have continuous 

498
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,440
provision up to the end of year 
6. 

499
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,680
Right. 
That, that very quickly on that,

500
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,600
that, that is fascinating to me.
And I, I, I want to be, I, I, I 

501
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,520
want to be able to provide that 
for kids as well. 

502
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,040
And I think it's great. 
And on continuous provision, you

503
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,080
mentioned about, about play, 
because continued provision is 

504
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:37,520
another thing. 
I think if you're an upper key 

505
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,000
stage teacher, you might have 
just like heard of and not been 

506
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,520
sure about, but with continuous 
provision, that's from my 

507
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,520
understanding very much how you 
implement it as well. 

508
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,840
So like embedded hearing, what 
does it look like in a 

509
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,880
classroom? 
Well, continued provision is 

510
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,120
something and in your petition 
you say do you know what, we get

511
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,360
it in early years, we need to 
make it statutory at least for 

512
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,200
key Stage 1. 
So maybe yeah, if you could just

513
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,240
outline to people listening 
saying I've heard of continuous 

514
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,600
provision, but what's it's link 
to play and what might it look 

515
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,920
like? 
So your continuous provision is 

516
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:13,280
essentially the environment the 
the provision that is set up all

517
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,680
the time for your children to be
able to access. 

518
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:21,120
You don't really change it, but 
what is in it enables the 

519
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:24,200
children to play. 
So it's things like, you know, 

520
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,720
your blocks, your cars, your. 
Your house that you had in your 

521
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,360
in your room, your creative 
corner that you got taken away. 

522
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,720
The role Playhouse that I had, 
and as children develop, that 

523
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,720
changes. 
So what we put out for them 

524
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:44,000
developmentally adapts, changes.
There's some things that we'd 

525
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,120
continually put out. 
There's some things that we 

526
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:47,920
change. 
So you might put like a hammer 

527
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,360
and nuts and bolts. 
You can do that in early years, 

528
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,200
but actually with our year six 
children, we might really use a 

529
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,120
hammer like. 
You're. 

530
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,240
Going to trust children. 
I mean, really, risk assessment 

531
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,600
kids. 
We're not saying don't do risk 

532
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,720
assessments, guys, doesn't mean 
it doesn't mean we don't really 

533
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,920
do this safely. 
But you're going to essentially 

534
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,400
give them the access to your 
provision that they can access. 

535
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,080
You might have loose parts in 
there. 

536
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,000
By loose parts I mean objects. 
Basically it's just things. 

537
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,800
It could be like a natural loose
part like fighting pine cones, 

538
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,040
or it could be like a man made 
and loose part. 

539
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,120
Like I'm trying to think of 
something like nuts and bolts. 

540
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,400
Exactly. 
But it's it's from what you're 

541
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,640
describing here. 
And the thing I think it's a no 

542
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,440
brainer is every single child 
I've ever seen in the school 

543
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,120
benefits from this open-ended 
learning where where they lead 

544
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,400
it. 
Like we even even in the more 

545
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,240
traditional methods of teaching 
that we've spoken about, we 

546
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,120
often must start maybe a science
lesson with a big question or 

547
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,480
maybe ADT lesson with, OK, how 
does this work? 

548
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,240
And I think I think you're 
absolutely right, even even down

549
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,920
to little things like that, we 
can put more of that in when 

550
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,480
children are getting older, 
which is just trusting the kids 

551
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,840
a bit more. 
And I suppose what I wanted to 

552
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,880
put you as well was this whole 
problem, I think, and I think 

553
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,960
you summed up perfectly with we 
are assessing how good something

554
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,440
is for a child based on what the
end result will be in a test 

555
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,680
that we've created ourselves. 
And we think, OK, well, in a SAT

556
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,920
paper at the end of year six 
that we've decided is the way we

557
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,680
judge children by the way we 
we're in control of this. 

558
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,920
But because that exists while 
I've got to be more form of my 

559
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,800
learning more quickly. 
And I guess in in your ideal 

560
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,160
world, if it is play based and 
you know, we're we're thinking 

561
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,880
about resilience for the child 
and critical thinking and 

562
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,280
problem solving and just being 
able to be more social and 

563
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,280
express themselves. 
All of these unbelievably, 

564
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,280
undeniably great things for 
children when the end of the 

565
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,000
school system doesn't really 
remotely judge them on that and 

566
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,320
schools aren't assessed by that.
Do you think that this change 

567
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,280
needs to come hand in hand with 
how we judge schools and how 

568
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,560
ultimately we judge children 
when it comes to formal 

569
00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,880
assessments? 
Yes, but I also think so, yeah, 

570
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,480
IA 100% need think the education
system needs, it needs a reform.

571
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,760
Like for me everything about our
education system in England is 

572
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,680
top down. 
So what we do in secondary 

573
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,600
school, we just push lower and 
lower and lower and lower and 

574
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,280
lower and lower and lower. 
For our youngest children. 

575
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,360
We need a bottom up approach. 
They acknowledge the government 

576
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,960
acknowledged that what we do in 
early years works really well. 

577
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,800
They acknowledge that play based
learning is critical for these 

578
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,480
children. 
But once you turn 5, that 

579
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,640
suddenly stops. 
We know that's not true. 

580
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,080
You know, when we look at when 
we compare our education system 

581
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,480
to education systems around the 
world, most of them and actually

582
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,520
the ones that are superior to 
England have a play based 

583
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,600
kindergarten at least, which 
goes to the end of year 7. 

584
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,040
So even places like Singapore or
China where you think, oh, it's 

585
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,880
really, really formal, they 
actually have play based key 

586
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:01,720
stage one. 
It's us that don't. 

587
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,960
And then their results are 
better at the end. 

588
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,760
So do I think it goes hand in 
hand? 

589
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:13,280
Yes, But I also think that if we
had a play based the best 

590
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:18,920
approach to our learning, our 
results would be better anyway. 

591
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,240
Because I truly don't believe 
and just from the way I've 

592
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,360
worked with children, my 
experience, the what the 

593
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,800
research shows us, you don't 
need to like be brainwashed A 

594
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,040
SAPS paper every single day of 
your life for a year to be able 

595
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,000
to pass it. 
I can teach you. 

596
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,040
I can develop that love of 
learning. 

597
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,200
I can set things out within my 
environment within that 

598
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,720
continuous provision that are 
going to test you, stretch you, 

599
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,840
enable you to use that thinking 
and apply it in a way that isn't

600
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,840
just in a textbook. 
So that then actually when I do 

601
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,000
my guided teach with you, when I
have you is I'm not not teaching

602
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,680
you. 
You're not playing all day. 

603
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:02,120
I'm still doing like my whole 
class teach. 

604
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,760
I'm still having my groups out 
to come here. 

605
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,960
But then you've got those in 
moments to apply what you've 

606
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,040
learned in a way that is not 
just pen and paper. 

607
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,640
I I think if we have our play 
based learning throughout, our 

608
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,080
results would improve because 
our children would be healthier,

609
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,120
they'd mentally healthier, 
they'd be happier, they'd be 

610
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,640
they would just use these skills
in real life as well, not just 

611
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,040
short term gain for piece of 
paper. 

612
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,040
So yes, it does go hand in hand,
but the government aren't going 

613
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,160
to change that anytime soon. 
Well, let's see. 

614
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,280
They've got their review, a 
curriculum assessment review 

615
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,240
coming out soon, which we are 
looking forward to. 

616
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:51,240
But I did e-mail Professor Becky
Francis, who's leading that, and

617
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,520
I did get a response which was 
positive about, you know, 

618
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,760
they've heard about Key Stage 1.
So I am hopeful for that. 

619
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,320
But well. 
Imagine, imagine if you know, 

620
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,640
you're pushing and getting 
things out there and getting the

621
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,960
conversation started. 
Imagine if that new correct 

622
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,480
thing comes out and and it 
really does, you know, play as a

623
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,640
vital part of key stage 1. 
I guess that that does segue. 

624
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,200
I was really nicely into your 
petition. 

625
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,720
I'd just like to talk to talk 
about that briefly, which is 

626
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,760
you, what you've been pushing 
online and you know, again, go 

627
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,080
and follow what's your handle on
Instagram for people to come and

628
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,600
follow you? 
So it's at my mummy teacher. 

629
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,520
Perfect. 
So you can go and follow and 

630
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,160
keep up to date with the 
signatures and how they're 

631
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,480
growing and getting more and 
more. 

632
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,440
But let's let's just talk now 
then what you're really pushing 

633
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,320
at the minute. 
And I think you've you've talked

634
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,560
about playing continuous 
division and why it's so, so 

635
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,000
important, so well. 
And I'm I'm really on side here.

636
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,960
So anyone else listening who 
thinks that this is important, 

637
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,720
they are, it's definitely 
someone who should go and sign 

638
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,240
your petition. 
So what is this petition about 

639
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,840
Key stage 1 and play and and 
continuous provision and what's 

640
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,920
your aim and where are we at 
with our signatures? 

641
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,800
What's the current situation? 
OK, so just before I say that, I

642
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,640
just want to say off the back of
playing Key Stage 2, if you're 

643
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,800
thinking, Oh my goodness, this 
is overwhelming. 

644
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,960
There's absolutely no I could do
that, which is probably what you

645
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,400
are thinking if you're a key 
stage 2 teacher. 

646
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,920
Me, a key stage 2 teacher here 
who's on board and thinks that 

647
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,880
still. 
That is OK. 

648
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,320
You can think those things. 
We can do phases like even just 

649
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,159
playful learning, even just 
taking what you're teaching and 

650
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:25,080
doing in a practical, joyful, 
playful way is better. 

651
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,120
You don't have to go whole hog. 
Like we've got our gold standard

652
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,880
and then we've got our just 
making things more playful. 

653
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,040
We're going to aim for our gold 
standard. 

654
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,600
It's a journey. 
You're not going to get there 

655
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,159
overnight, but being playful, 
gamify, all of those things will

656
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:41,800
make a difference to your 
children. 

657
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:48,800
So then after the back of that, 
the petition I set this in June,

658
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,679
I think it was June or July, 
they've merged into one, don't 

659
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:54,280
they? 
The day, months in the middle 

660
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,680
somewhere, yeah. 
Tuesday and I said one day, you 

661
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,360
know, I just speak to people all
the time. 

662
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,840
It's what I speak about, You 
know, my business, MMT play, we 

663
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,240
sell. 
That's what we sell. 

664
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,440
We sell learning resources to 
help people help their children 

665
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,600
learn through play. 
And I'm having these 

666
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,240
conversations and so many times 
I'd be at a trade show or I'd be

667
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:17,360
in a school and people would 
say, oh, you know, we'd love to 

668
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,280
do this, but XYZ or I wish that 
we could do that, but this isn't

669
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,440
the way it is. 
You know, that's just how it is.

670
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,960
The government, the curriculum, 
the expectations. 

671
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,920
And I just thought, like I said 
to at the beginning, I was like,

672
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,880
do you know what? 
Now I've left, I can't say 

673
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:39,160
anything within reason, anything
within separating and actually 

674
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:45,080
I'm not going to be that person 
that moans about it and doesn't 

675
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,560
do anything. 
So I'm just a woman. 

676
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,600
I'm just a tit. 
I'm not just a woman like God, 

677
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,960
that sounds. 
Don't take that out of context. 

678
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,240
I'm not just a woman, I. 
Would clip this podcast. 

679
00:35:56,240 --> 00:35:57,920
I'm afraid that's going to be 
the headline now. 

680
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:07,280
But I'm just a person with a 
passion and proof that play is 

681
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,160
the answer. 
I all it's this. 

682
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,600
It is the solution. 
Research shows it as anecdotally

683
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,880
we can show it as we can compare
to other countries like Finland,

684
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,800
Sweden, around the world. 
It is the answer. 

685
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,760
So I thought, you know what, I'm
just going to do it. 

686
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,920
People are like, we should do a 
petition. 

687
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,960
Yes, we should, and we're going 
to. 

688
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,920
I was sat in bed, it was like 
11:00 at night. 

689
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,840
I was in my pyjamas. 
If you go on my socials and look

690
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,000
at the picture when I first put 
it on, it is a selfie of me in 

691
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,040
my pyjamas. 
And I was like, I've just done a

692
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,360
petition and that's it. 
And then it got released. 

693
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:49,120
And then within the first 48 
hours, we had over 35,000 

694
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,520
signatures. 
Wow, we're now on 76,000. 

695
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,920
We need 100,000 by January the 
3rd. 

696
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,880
If we get 100,000, it goes to 
parliamentary debate. 

697
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,560
It can have real impact. 
So I've been and like amazing 

698
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,960
people that have also been like,
this is what I needed. 

699
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,080
Like I believe this for so long,
but I need, we need someone to 

700
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,600
like take the first step. 
That's all I did was take the 

701
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,320
first step. 
Like now, everyone else has to 

702
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,600
run with it. 
Yeah, yeah, I've done my bit of 

703
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:22,480
my pyjamas. 
Come on. 

704
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,760
And people have been emailing 
their MPs. 

705
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,680
There's like a template for that
on my blog. 

706
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,200
We've met with MPs and it's the 
conversation. 

707
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,960
So for me, my, my aim is that 
this gets to parliamentary 

708
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,680
debate, is that that 
conversation is happening at 

709
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,720
that higher level within the 
government. 

710
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:44,960
We are making people aware. 
We are asking the questions like

711
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,920
I've got all this research to 
show you that play based 

712
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,400
learning is the most effective 
way. 

713
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,480
Please show me yours that says 
it's not right. 

714
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,560
Please show me yours that says a
formal approach to learning is 

715
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:00,960
the best way that children 
learn. 

716
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:03,600
Yeah, because they can't at the 
end of the day. 

717
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,240
Like honestly, we talk a lot on 
this podcast. 

718
00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:09,160
We say a lot of things where we 
always try and make a real 

719
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,040
distinction between when 
something's an opinion maybe and

720
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,240
when something is just rooted in
evidence and a fact. 

721
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:16,840
And, and every, everything's 
pointing me down the road here 

722
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,280
of from listening to you, from 
seeing the research, seeing what

723
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,240
you post. 
It's just better for our kids. 

724
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:25,520
And I think that passion like 
just shine through when you talk

725
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,920
about it. 
And, and people like me are the 

726
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,320
kinds of people I'm hoping are 
also listening to this podcast 

727
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,200
now and going, do you know what 
that that is good that this is 

728
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,920
what our children need. 
And yeah, all the all the 

729
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,640
worries I might have or the 
reasons why I might think it 

730
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,840
might not work, etcetera, It all
kind of it just it just pales in

731
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,080
comparison to the impact that it
can clearly have on our 

732
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:46,720
individual people growing up in 
our society. 

733
00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:49,080
And yeah, I think I think it's 
fantastic. 

734
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,920
And the the petitions about key 
stage one right making it 

735
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,880
statutory because is it is it 
even mentioned in the curriculum

736
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,760
now for Key Stage 1, is it like 
suggested or is it just not 

737
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,000
mentioned at all? 
So in early years, it's 

738
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,440
literally like this is what you 
do, this is how kids learn. 

739
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,000
And then in key stage one, it's 
just follow what they do in 

740
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,960
secondary school. 
Yeah, it's you're right though. 

741
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,680
It's so when you, when you point
out it's so true that it's, it's

742
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,400
top down, it's like we're not 
thinking of where you start. 

743
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,560
And then when you maybe you 
change or adapt or move, it's 

744
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,800
just like, well, top down. 
I guess early years, they can 

745
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,360
play, right? 
They're little kids, they always

746
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,400
play. 
It's like, no, I think this is 

747
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,000
the other thing. 
When you say play, some people 

748
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,280
think of, oh, what, the 15 
minutes at break time. 

749
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:29,960
It's like, no, no, no, no, no, 
no, no, no, no. 

750
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,600
We're talking about structured 
play where, yeah, we let the 

751
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,080
kids do what they want, but for 
your continuous provision, 

752
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:36,680
you're allowing them. 
You're still doing your 

753
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,080
teaching. 
Like you said, it's not just a 

754
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,400
free for all and just changing 
that perspective on play. 

755
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:43,400
I think a lot of people will go,
do you know what? 

756
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,520
I, I should sign this petition 
actually, because my kid, if I, 

757
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,400
if you have kids out there, I 
want my son Rory to be in a 

758
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,600
classroom when he's 6 or 7 
embedded in play. 

759
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,000
I'll be perfectly honest. 
And it, it's a pedagogical 

760
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,080
approach, that's what it is, 
it's a recognised pedagogical 

761
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,560
approach. 
And and that's that's what we 

762
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,720
want for our children and the 
petitions to make it statutory 

763
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:09,080
in Key Stage 1. 
That would be the gold standard.

764
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,040
But actually for me if and I 
know this is happening, so I 

765
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,520
went into a school yesterday and
well two schools yesterday 

766
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,200
people spoke to me and they are 
looking at introducing 

767
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,560
continuous provision into their 
year one. 

768
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:30,480
Now for me, like that is impact 
and, and my, my dream is that it

769
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,840
becomes statutory. 
My life. 

770
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,280
That's my gold standard. 
My silver is that we get a 

771
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,040
debate in Parliament and we 
raise more awareness. 

772
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,600
But my bronze is to know what 
I've got 76,000 people and more 

773
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,600
talking about this. 
It's a numbers game. 

774
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:52,760
If 76,000 people know about 
this, then at least 20,000 

775
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,360
people are going to be like, I 
actually want to do that. 

776
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:01,760
And as yesterday showed me, two 
people came and said because of 

777
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,600
your petition we have now 
considered or we are trying to 

778
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,120
do this. 
And genuinely, that for me is 

779
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:13,160
like, I've done something. 
You, you've, you've already had 

780
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,840
an impact roof honestly and 
hopefully through through this 

781
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,200
chat and our audience again, 
listening to this, even if 

782
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,240
they're in the upper key stage, 
but they're working in a school,

783
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:22,600
they're going to start this 
conversation with with leaders 

784
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,640
and say, look, this is embedded 
in research. 

785
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,520
We can link down below. 
Like you said, the research you 

786
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,520
put together and and yeah, and 
and like just keep this 

787
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,960
conversation going and I'm going
to do a big call to action right

788
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:33,760
now. 
Go and sign this petition 

789
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,480
because I think it's a petition 
worth signing. 

790
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,120
I'm going to share it on our 
social media as well and yeah 

791
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,840
get to 100,000 right let's. 
Just do that. 

792
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,600
Let's just do that for our kids,
for our kids, and then we can 

793
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,920
worry about the how after. 
Yeah, yeah. 

794
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:50,880
The practicalities, the timeline
don't. 

795
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,400
Worry it will happen. 
We can help you. 

796
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,040
Let's just get it there because 
like you said as well, you know,

797
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,560
the government response was 
about referred to play as in 

798
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,080
playtime. 
They didn't even whoever wrote 

799
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,360
that, which concerns me didn't 
understand. 

800
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,880
The petition is for play, 
playful learning, learning 

801
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,800
through play, whatever you want 
to call it in the classroom. 

802
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,880
That tells you how how much of a
crisis this is. 

803
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,120
Yeah, like they, they, the 
people that we're sending this 

804
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,840
off to don't even understand 
what we're talking about. 

805
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,680
Yeah, for sure, Ruth, I've, I've
really enjoyed that chat and I 

806
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,040
love your passion about play. 
And, and I think if we Fast 

807
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,320
forward five years and we see 
your gold standard, I think our 

808
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,120
children will be in a really 
better place in our society. 

809
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:39,360
So thank you for everything 
you're doing. 

810
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,000
You're very welcome. 
Thank you so much for having me 

811
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,400
to chat. 
It's been a pleasure and let's 

812
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,720
hope in five years I'll come 
back and I've like everyone to 

813
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:52,160
say about the last five years. 
Well now everyone play full 

814
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,360
score. 
New gold standard play up until 

815
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,680
work, even when you're in work 
all the way through life. 

816
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,880
Amazing. 
Thank you so much. 

817
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,920
Thank you. 
OK, Hayden, are you feeling 

818
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,080
threatened now? 
It's your position of Co host. 

819
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:10,920
Yeah, another person taking my 
Co host. 

820
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:12,080
So was it the last time? 
Alistair Campbell. 

821
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:13,920
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Just, you know, just just a few 

822
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,280
people I mixed with. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

823
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,120
No, I honestly, it was a 
fantastic chat. 

824
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:18,720
And thank you, Ruth as well. 
I will say thank you even though

825
00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:20,320
I wasn't there, I would have 
loved to have been there. 

826
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,240
And also well done because you 
actually enjoyed a chat with 

827
00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:26,000
Dylan for 45 minutes or so by 
yourself. 

828
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,920
And that is a, you know, it's, 
it's no mean feat. 

829
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,240
It's taken me many years to to 
master this. 

830
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:31,280
I'll be honest with you. 
So. 

831
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,920
Even I can say that I'm I'm 
quite impressed when anyone puts

832
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,480
up with me for that long, so 
it's a fair play. 

833
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:36,880
Thank you. 
You know what the sign of a of a

834
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,440
really good chat is genuinely 
when you have an expert on like 

835
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,200
roof and you're just listening. 
Most of that was you just 

836
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,200
listening, asking questions and 
me not talking at all. 

837
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,920
You not talking, generally not 
making any noise and just trying

838
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,360
to find out more. 
And when I was listening 

839
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,120
through, I felt like I learnt 
loads and the overarching I 

840
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,040
wrote down loads of notes and by
the end of it, I thought, do you

841
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,720
know what the thing I really, 
really want to get across by the

842
00:43:55,720 --> 00:44:00,880
end of this conversation is that
who am I to like chat? 

843
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,320
Well, if you you're going to ask
me my opinion, who am I to 

844
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,640
challenge the research? 
Like she made a really good 

845
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,000
point. 
I used to try to challenge her 

846
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,680
and like and say, oh, but in the
classroom practicality wise, I'm

847
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,560
in year 4. 
Like I don't really know what to

848
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:15,880
do. 
I don't have to do this. 

849
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,880
Like, do I really need to? 
And there's a test at the end of

850
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,000
year 4, like we kind of just 
need to get them to that. 

851
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,640
And then there's the key stage 2
Sats. 

852
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,760
And yeah, this is all great, but
I need to get them passed this 

853
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,320
test. 
Even though, yeah, sure, we 

854
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,560
could decide not to do the test,
but we are, it does exist. 

855
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,120
So what do we do? 
And she said, well, yeah, that's

856
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,840
cool. 
But also it is just a wrong 

857
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:35,920
assumption to think that if 
you're doing play based 

858
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,880
learning, you're therefore not 
learning properly. 

859
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:39,680
Like you can't then do English 
and maths as well. 

860
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,840
The whole point is you can. 
Like it makes a more holistic 

861
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,200
child. 
And I thought that was really 

862
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,200
important. 
And she said something really 

863
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,320
powerful, which is all the 
research is there and it and all

864
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:50,560
of the case studies is all 
there. 

865
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,320
And it strongly suggests that 
this is a fantastic way. 

866
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,000
It doesn't suggest it proves 
this is a great way to build up 

867
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,560
children holistically and guess 
what, they become better 

868
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,280
learners everything when you 
when you do it this way. 

869
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,080
And then she said, where's I 
want to see the evidence that 

870
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:05,920
says this doesn't. 
Work. 

871
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:06,920
Yeah, I thought that was really 
good. 

872
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,720
That was such a good argument. 
It made me, it just grounded me 

873
00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:12,160
because, yeah, I've got, I've 
had my opinions and very similar

874
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,120
to you going through, I had my 
sort of doubts and questions of 

875
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:15,520
like, well, but how do I do it 
though? 

876
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,680
Like this all sounds great in 
ideology and theory, but like, 

877
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,040
I'm not sure how to apply this 
in my Year 6 classroom. 

878
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,200
I don't know what to do. 
Like practically, I can't 

879
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,080
provide this for 32 kids. 
Well, actually, clearly you can.

880
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:26,760
And clearly there's loads of 
research out there that says 

881
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,600
it's great. 
And who am I to say that you 

882
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,720
can't do it genuinely Like what?
Why do I get to say shut that 

883
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,320
down? 
Like the toxic like Academy. 

884
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,120
Yeah, yeah, Lily. 
That she had that came in and 

885
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,440
just said, Oh yeah, don't do 
that. 

886
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,000
We don't have that in a year one
classroom here. 

887
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:41,440
What? 
What? 

888
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:41,720
What? 
Yeah. 

889
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,520
What just said, oh, this is 
really good for the kids, for XY

890
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:46,920
and Z. 
Oh yeah, it's not though. 

891
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:48,960
Yeah. 
But but I just think that's not 

892
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,480
what we do in year 1. 
And and it's yeah, I agree. 

893
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,040
I'm getting to that point now 
where I'm just like, look, your 

894
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,040
own kind of your own point of 
view is obviously important, 

895
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,440
right? 
But when faced with facts and 

896
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,800
cold hard research into 
something like this, I, I think 

897
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,760
there's always that balance 
between, OK, what's my 

898
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,760
experience of something and what
does the research say? 

899
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,760
And I think in this case with 
play, it's just so heavily 

900
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,440
weighted towards, well, it's so 
clearly good for our kids. 

901
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:20,800
And when the arguments against 
it are rooted in, well, it's 

902
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,480
just what we've always done this
formal way of doing it. 

903
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,000
Well, it's just the problem 
because it's hard to implement. 

904
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,360
I've not heard anyone argue 
against play with a point that's

905
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,040
really strong in, in and of 
itself rather than simply like 

906
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,880
an inconvenience maybe or, or 
something where I just, I just 

907
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,360
think, no, it's like, well, 
that's not really an opinion. 

908
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,040
If you come at me with some 
solid research and said this, 

909
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,840
this, this, we can have a 
discussion and maybe we can have

910
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,160
a hybrid approach. 
And I loved what she said about 

911
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,120
play can be introduced, not even
necessarily as embedded in your 

912
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,240
learning completely, even though
maybe that's what she would like

913
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:55,400
to see. 
And I think that would be good 

914
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,280
for the kids. 
But you can just introduce some 

915
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,880
child LED activities, introduce 
some ideas where maybe something

916
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,880
we do already, like in a science
lesson, ask a question, put some

917
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,040
stuff out and see what the 
children do to experiment 

918
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,160
themselves. 
And just moving that towards 

919
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,680
them becoming more independent 
thinkers, problem solvers, 

920
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,560
things that don't necessarily 
get judged by the tests at the 

921
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,080
end. 
And that's the point I was 

922
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:16,880
making is that it needs to come 
with an overhaul. 

923
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,240
And I loved her response because
it wasn't just, yeah, we need to

924
00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:20,880
change everything. 
It was, look, the government 

925
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,440
aren't going to get rid of Key 
Stage 2 SAT. 

926
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,440
So, so great. 
I could sit here and say, yeah, 

927
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,640
absolutely. 
Or I can make the other point, 

928
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,040
which is fine, keep the SAT, but
we're still going to create more

929
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,520
rounded children who also can 
still do English and maths. 

930
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,160
It's not an either or. 
It's a pedagogical tool where we

931
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:38,680
can still get children to end 
goals. 

932
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,840
And I was like, that's powerful.
That was to me was the most 

933
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,800
powerful argument is saying that
we can still have your end goals

934
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,600
that you want and they'll be 
better at it through this. 

935
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:47,240
It's just a better approach for 
the majority of children. 

936
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,400
I truly don't believe. 
And also we've said it in 

937
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,640
everything we've ever done this 
podcast, that there is not a one

938
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,880
size fits model for every child 
ever. 

939
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,760
But clearly the evidence is here
behind play based, play based. 

940
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,440
Learning, Well, that's why I 
like play based learning, by the

941
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,520
way, because we say there's not 
one-size-fits-all. 

942
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,120
And you might say, well, yeah, 
so obviously play is not good 

943
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,680
for everyone. 
Well, no, play by definition is 

944
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,520
something that isn't 
one-size-fits-all. 

945
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,360
It's like it's like a paradox 
almost. 

946
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:11,640
It's like what everyone should 
do play. 

947
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:13,720
And it's like, well, you just 
said it's not one-size-fits-all.

948
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:16,400
No, I know, I know that. 
But but through play, it's child

949
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,760
LED and children get what they 
need out of it. 

950
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,600
You can get that social support 
you might need. 

951
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,440
You can get that kind of therapy
that you might need. 

952
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:23,800
You can get the learning you 
might need. 

953
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,160
It's everything. 
And I, I just think it's so 

954
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,000
powerful. 
And as someone who's never 

955
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,520
worked in, in key stage 1 or 
lower, I look at it and I just 

956
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,840
think it's clearly working 
really well in the early years. 

957
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,520
It's such a shame. 
It seems to fall off a Cliff 

958
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,360
when, when lots of children 
enter year 1 and that's it. 

959
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,640
Now it's done just because 
they're in Year 1 and not 

960
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,040
necessarily because what they 
need as an individual. 

961
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,800
It's like, well, yeah, you were 
born at this point in time, so 

962
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,000
no longer you will land by play.
And it's like, why? 

963
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,560
Yeah, it's just just because. 
Oh, that's not good enough. 

964
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,440
When she mentioned, yeah, that 
child that's she's just as an 

965
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,680
anecdote, she was like, oh, 
there's that child that comes up

966
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,360
to year one. 
It's like, oh, now you're just 

967
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,440
about ready to start early 
years. 

968
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,400
Yeah, yeah, basically. 
But you're in year 1 SOS so 

969
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:04,840
doesn't matter. 
You can't do play anymore. 

970
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,400
Because age is your age is more 
important than your actual like.

971
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,480
Your academic that's broken, but
it just. 

972
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,000
Just doesn't make any sense. 
But another thing that made me 

973
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,320
reflect on a little bit is where
I have had year 6, like you 

974
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,560
said, for so many years. 
We quite often our school, we do

975
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:18,800
things like memories at the end 
of year 6. 

976
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,520
It's really quite sweet. 
And we get the kids to just have

977
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,760
a check of them, a session where
they get to reflect genuinely on

978
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,880
things that they've loved about 
being in school. 

979
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,520
And it triggered my mind when 
you guys were talking about, you

980
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,040
know, just the holistic side of 
learning and play based learning

981
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,360
and what is enjoyable. 
You talk, you mentioned like the

982
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,160
science lessons at the start, 
you might do something really 

983
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:38,800
fun and hooky and they obviously
all enjoy that. 

984
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:42,080
That's the stuff kids remember 
when when I every year when I do

985
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,000
memories and I say cool. 
What's your favourite thing 

986
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,160
about year 4? 
It's always, honestly always 

987
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:48,720
just one off the cuff thing like
that. 

988
00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:50,800
It could be the smallest thing 
that you'd insignificant to you.

989
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,320
It was just part of your scheme 
of work. 

990
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,960
And yeah, oh, you have to do 
this little experiment at the 

991
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,120
start. 
They remember that because that 

992
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,440
was really fun. 
Oh, is this time that I had the 

993
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:57,920
freedom to do this thing that 
was creative. 

994
00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,960
That's the thing they remember 
for the entirety of year 3. 

995
00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:05,200
Is it all the way up to year 6, 
all the way there like school? 

996
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,080
I think there's an argument to 
say that in not every school, 

997
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,120
but school in general with 
formalised learning and the push

998
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,440
towards that, something is 
becoming so boring. 

999
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,320
Like I've said it before it I'm 
sure some schools don't do this,

1000
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,040
but it is just a bit boring, 
isn't it? 

1001
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,960
And uninspiring if you don't do,
if you don't have any of these 

1002
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,560
creative hooky elements. 
Play based learning is like the 

1003
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,400
ultimate counter to this of 
like, yeah, let's just make, 

1004
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,640
let's make school enjoyable. 
You know how we've said before, 

1005
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:30,680
what's the point of primary 
school? 

1006
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:32,520
It's to foster inquisitive 
minds. 

1007
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,120
It's to make children question 
things and and become interested

1008
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,080
in subjects so they can then go 
on and study them. 

1009
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,000
They want, if they're 16 and 
they want to study geography, 

1010
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:40,800
great. 
Do you know what? 

1011
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,920
I don't need to tell them all 
the stuff they learn when 

1012
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,240
they're 16 in geography, when 
they're eight. 

1013
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:46,440
I just need to get them hooked 
on the subject and make them 

1014
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,480
interested. 
And now to me, play based 

1015
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,400
learning fits more down that 
line of thinking, which I think 

1016
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,160
is the way to that we should be 
doing primary school more than 

1017
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,920
the current way of yeah, but 
formalised learning at all 

1018
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,400
points because we need to 
maximise, we need to maximise 

1019
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,120
the marks they can get in this 
written test. 

1020
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,400
Absolutely right. 
I think that's you've summed 

1021
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,720
that up perfectly and all I'm 
gonna do is clarify and and ask 

1022
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:09,800
you a bit about being bored 
'cause 'cause I said we, we've 

1023
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:11,920
talked a million times before. 
How about actually, sometimes 

1024
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,440
children need to feel bored. 
Sometimes children need to do 

1025
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,680
some things that are boring. 
And, and absolutely, I agree 

1026
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,640
with you, though, it doesn't 
mean they're always bored. 

1027
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,680
What we're not saying here is 
that everything needs to be 

1028
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,240
boring all of the time. 
And I think we can't eradicate 

1029
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:26,120
boredom from schools. 
It's not our job to make sure 

1030
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,840
children are having the most fun
they've ever had in their life 

1031
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,040
in every second of the day. 
Of course, we have to learn 

1032
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:32,640
things still. 
And Ruth addressed that. 

1033
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:34,160
You know, she still does her 
whole class learning. 

1034
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,600
She still does her teaching. 
You still have to learn stuff. 

1035
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,920
You still have to do stuff. 
Yeah, there is a, there is a 

1036
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:40,880
place in school for. 
Do you know what? 

1037
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,120
No, the next 1520 minutes we're 
doing this. 

1038
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:44,840
We're all going to do it. 
Sit down, crack on. 

1039
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,960
But it's embedded in a culture 
of everything, including some 

1040
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,760
play, including some free time, 
including some child LED 

1041
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:53,440
learning. 
It has to be that. 

1042
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,640
It has to be embedded in that 
continuous provision. 

1043
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:57,840
We're not saying I should have a
free for all. 

1044
00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:00,360
You know, kids run the school, 
do what you want all the time. 

1045
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,480
There's no rules anymore that I 
think I, I honestly think a lot 

1046
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,720
of people look at play sometimes
as learning and think, oh gosh, 

1047
00:52:06,720 --> 00:52:09,160
no, I'm going to lose control. 
Oh gosh, no, the kids aren't 

1048
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,560
going to learn stuff. 
Yeah, we have to address this 

1049
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,520
and we can't just say, yeah, 
isn't it lovely? 

1050
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,320
It's fancy, It's kids being 
engaged all the time. 

1051
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,040
No, it doesn't have to be what 
what it can be is kids are bored

1052
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:19,800
doing stuff sometimes. 
That's part of life. 

1053
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,120
But you know what? 
The vast majority of what I'm 

1054
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,960
going to give you is based on 
what you need, and you're going 

1055
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,160
to lead it for me. 
And I think that's so powerful 

1056
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,200
and clearly better. 
And you will just be less bored 

1057
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:31,920
if you have that sprinkled into 
your diet. 

1058
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,040
You just want every teacher to 
think right now, especially if 

1059
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,200
you're thinking, yeah, play 
based learning is really not 

1060
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:38,400
that, like, rooted in our 
culture. 

1061
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,360
Just think back to the last time
that you did do something that 

1062
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,320
you might say is a bit more like
play based, like the science 

1063
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:45,920
thing, you know, some sort of 
activity. 

1064
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:47,480
You think yeah, there was a bit 
of childhood activity. 

1065
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,000
It was quite creative. 
They could kind of do what they 

1066
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:50,880
want and they were really 
inquisitive and interested 

1067
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,240
because they had that freedom. 
Think backs that lesson. 

1068
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,400
And then think about how when 
you did the quote unquote boring

1069
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,840
stuff afterwards, the more 
formal stuff, how much more 

1070
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,880
engaged they were during that 
stuff because you allowed them 

1071
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,320
that bit at the start. 
That is what I imagine this kind

1072
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,000
of sprinkling in does. 
It's like it makes the bit that 

1073
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,880
was intrinsically more boring 
less boring because you inspired

1074
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:11,680
and engaged them with this fun 
bit before. 

1075
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:16,800
Like the I taking that as a 
concept, which I feel like play 

1076
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,360
based learning does, by the way,
like if you were doing it really

1077
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,120
well, that's to me, like the 
essence of it is taking that 

1078
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,760
concept and being like, should 
we do that to kids all the time?

1079
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,840
And I'm like, yes, what that 
what is school? 

1080
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,040
If it's not that it's mad that 
we're getting, we've got to a 

1081
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:31,920
point where we don't even think 
that's what school is. 

1082
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:36,240
Surely primary school is exactly
that, all the time sprinkled 

1083
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:39,240
into their diet So that 
formalised learning when you're 

1084
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:40,080
7. 
Yeah. 

1085
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,160
Isn't like sitting in an office 
when you're 42 doing a doing a 

1086
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:44,200
job all day. 
Like what? 

1087
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:45,720
It shouldn't be like that. 
Yeah. 

1088
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:48,360
There shouldn't be a similarity 
between the desk job at an 

1089
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,120
office 1717 hours a day, maybe 
20. 

1090
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:52,400
Three. 
Well, we we like to exaggerate. 

1091
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,480
So they say 23 hours a day, 20. 
3 hours a day and sitting in 

1092
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,720
this classroom they should not 
be the same. 

1093
00:53:57,720 --> 00:53:59,680
It's embarrassing that they're 
even like, compared. 

1094
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,560
So true and I I love that point 
there of. 

1095
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,320
It makes the boring stuff more 
bearable. 

1096
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,600
We, it still has to exist. 
Yeah. 

1097
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:07,760
You still have to write stuff 
down. 

1098
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,280
You still have to show me some 
evidence of some writing. 

1099
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:10,960
You still have to do some bits. 
But it's. 

1100
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:12,960
Yeah, it's so embedded in a 
culture of these kids are so 

1101
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:14,680
happy all the time. 
They're so engaged, they're 

1102
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,600
leading, they're learning. 
And those schools, I I've never 

1103
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,680
heard of a school. 
And please write in, by the way,

1104
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,160
if, if maybe you fit this belt. 
I've never heard of a school 

1105
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,840
who've expanded their continuous
provision or expanded their play

1106
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:26,800
and been like, oh God, it's the 
worst thing we've ever done. 

1107
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,000
I've only heard positive things.
And it might be tricky to do and

1108
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,880
it might feel like it's a big 
burden to kind of completely 

1109
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,240
change what you're doing. 
Give yourself some time to do 

1110
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:36,520
it, give your staff some 
training. 

1111
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,520
And my goodness me, I just, I 
just think of the individual 

1112
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,440
child. 
That's all I really think about.

1113
00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:43,920
And I go back to my son. 
I think about Rory. 

1114
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,840
If there was 2 choices were two 
schools that were identical but 

1115
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,640
one had continuous provision and
play as a fundamental part of 

1116
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:51,680
how they do their learning 
further into their primary 

1117
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,680
school and one stopped early 
years. 

1118
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,600
I know where I choose my son to 
go, the one that does plain 

1119
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,280
continuous provision, so much 
more throughout the school. 

1120
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,000
That's so funny, the next room. 
But that's a couple of episodes 

1121
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,200
ago. 
We got asked like what we looked

1122
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,200
for in a school. 
I think that's in my top three 

1123
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,120
because it wasn't when we were 
thinking about that, it wasn't a

1124
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:07,960
top three because we weren't. 
We obviously just didn't come to

1125
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:09,560
our mind. 
But actually now I'm like, 

1126
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,560
that's probably #1 you know, in 
all honesty, like my child 

1127
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,880
starting a school. 
Yeah. 

1128
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:16,480
Reception. 
I want to be seeing how much 

1129
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,640
continuous play, how much, how 
happy they're going to be. 

1130
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:19,800
Right. 
That's it, isn't it? 

1131
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,880
We talked about culture. 
Maybe we can kind of embed it 

1132
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,480
into our answer. 
Yeah, sneak it in a bit, but 

1133
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,480
really that's what I'm looking 
for when I say the culture of a 

1134
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:27,360
school being happy. 
Yeah. 

1135
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,360
Are the kids happy? 
And they're probably more happy 

1136
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,160
if they're not sat doing 
formalised learning all day at 6

1137
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:34,800
compared to, Yeah, a bit of a 
bit of play sprinkled in. 

1138
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:36,600
Anyway, it was a really, really 
good chat. 

1139
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,800
I thoroughly enjoyed listening 
through it and I feel like I 

1140
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,600
learned a lot. 
Definitely challenged my 

1141
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,920
perceptions on it. 
And just I'm happy to admit that

1142
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,040
it's like, yeah, I don't, I'm 
not that expert. 

1143
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,480
I'm not Roof, but the research 
is clearly there. 

1144
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,840
She's clearly passionate. 
I'm going to champion, I'm going

1145
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,160
to go sign that petition and I'm
not going to say Oh no, because 

1146
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:55,960
I've had this one experience. 
Therefore I think everything you

1147
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:57,680
said is wrong. 
No, I can't, I can't challenge 

1148
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,200
it. 
I don't have the evidence to say

1149
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,200
formalised learning is better 
than. 

1150
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,120
It's not there, so who am I to 
to say you're a nobody, mate, 

1151
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,840
But you're a nobody. 
I'm just going to host a podcast

1152
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:09,720
myself from now on. 
But yeah, absolutely. 

1153
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:12,600
Down below all the links to 
Ruth's bits and bobs, especially

1154
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:13,920
the petition. 
Go and sign it. 

1155
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,920
And if you enjoy this episode, 
it helps us more than you can 

1156
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:18,760
imagine if you leave us a lovely
review and. 

1157
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,920
Share it with your friends who 
you think might find it. 

1158
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,280
Quite interesting, particularly 
this one. 

1159
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,360
Let's spread the word, I think 
of quality play provision in 

1160
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,640
primary schools. 
Hayden, anything to say before 

1161
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,400
we sign off for this week? 
See you next time.