Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Teach
State. Repeat.
My name is. Dylan and my name's Hayden.
And this week, we are taking a deep dive into the world of play
and continuous provision for our learners.
I say we, we're not. Are we not me and you I?
Just didn't really fancy being there, no?
I didn't really want to do it, so I will be talking to Ruth
from my mummy teacher. She is a huge advocate for play
continuous provision, not just in the early years but
stretching that out even further into key stage 1.
And basically we're going to be chatting about why it's really
important for our younger general generation to have that
ability to play and what we even mean by play.
Not break time, not running around, just skipping rope.
Actual quality learning through play and.
Afterwards we'll be then reflecting and I get my chance
to have a say as well, if you want to listen to that.
I mean, you could just, you could honestly, I don't normally
say this, but when we finish talking, you know, just.
You're going to kill the retention of the podcast here,
then this is not a good thing. Yeah.
So do stick around to the end to hear my thoughts.
Yeah, on everything they talk. But I'll tell you what, you, it
will be genuinely really interesting because you've, even
more so than I have spent so much of your career really at
the top of key Stage 2 at Year 6, thinking about Sats and
Tests. And we talk about that as well
in the chat. It's a really, really good chat.
I'm looking forward to you listening to it.
And we'll break it down after. But without further ado, let's
get chatting to Ruth. Hey, Ruth.
Thanks for joining us. Hi, Dylan, thank you so much for
having me. I'm actually really excited
because Hayden's not here pestering me and trying to, you
know, get get those questions in before I am.
So we're going to dive in today to your story, your background,
your your professional career as a teacher and a leader.
What made you step away from that and your passion for play.
So before we get into all of that, if you wouldn't mind just
outlining to our listeners, what is your story?
What did you do in school and what made you eventually think
I'm going to stop doing it now? Oh I love that.
So hopefully as it's just happened, the big banner fell
down behind me, but hopefully that won't happen.
I was so hoping we were recording.
I was going to get a little outtake and everything.
It's like doing the assembly, isn't it?
And you're standing in front of 600 kids and then something
happens and then everything goes to part.
But we used to it. We're teachers.
We think on athletes. We roll with it.
We. Adapt, we go on.
So my story is, is very much that I would take that word,
adapt, go on, and that would sort of lead me beautifully into
my story. So I was a teacher, that's all I
wanted to be. I always say this to people.
I am that girl that when I was seven years old, I asked my mum
and dad for a whiteboard for my birthday.
You know, like I didn't want a Tamagotchi or a cabbage pack
doll. I was literally like, I really,
really, really want a whiteboard.
Like one of those proper ones that you get from like a
stationary shop. And I used to play and, you
know, my dolls would sit down. I was pretending to be the
teacher. My brothers used to like I'm the
eldest, so they probably hated me for it.
But you know they sit. Down I'm the teacher here.
Listen to me. Absolutely.
It's all I ever wanted to do. Basically became a teacher.
I taught in three schools and quite different.
Majority of them were in quite deprived areas.
We had a lot of the typical issues that you would have
within a school like that. I did teach in one sort of
affluent area as well. So got a sort of good span of
what it's like to be a child, what it's like to be a teacher
and loved my job, genuinely loved it.
I look back now that I'm out of teaching and realise, Oh my
goodness, how did I do what I did?
But if you'd have asked me at the time if I was like didn't
like my job or anything like that, I would have, I wouldn't
have even said like any. I'd have been like, I love it, I
love it. This is what I do.
But now I look back and I realise, Oh my goodness, I was
living unlike no sleep OverDrive, like my nervous
system must have just been a wreck.
But I did love it, put everything into it and I didn't
want to leave. And the reason that I did leave
was I was a deputy head teacher and I was having my little boy
and I wanted to go back part time.
So this was like 5, well, nearly six years ago, five, 5 1/2 years
ago now. So I do think things have
changed slightly since then in terms of flexible working like I
do here. There are there is like a
different stance. Ironically, actually the Academy
chain that I worked for, they put on their LinkedIn a few
months ago that all flexible working policies will now be
accepted. This five years ago.
And my, the lady who was like my head teacher, who I worked with,
she sent it to me and I was like, Oh dear, five years too
late. But actually it wasn't five
years too late. Because this is, you know, it's
flexibility, it's adaptation. And, and life takes us on a
journey. Like I truly believe we are
where we're meant to be when we're meant to be.
So at the time when I requested part time I was basically told
it had to be full time or become class teacher again.
So give up on my leadership position and now if you know me
well, then you'll know that that's not like I couldn't do
that. I was like, I've worked hard to
get to this position. Like this is what I want to do.
You're being penalised almost at that point, aren't you, for for
starting a family and wanting some time back yourself?
100% and I would have done four days.
It's not like I was saying can I come in one day a week and leave
the school? I just needed a day that I could
be with my son and not be doing like washing and this and that
and life and as it goes. So I said, OK, I'm going to
leave. I don't know what I'm going to
do, but I'm not going to come back.
And at the time that was so hard, like I think like for
myself, but my own development and your confidence is knocked.
You genuinely feel like, Oh my goodness, like I've given my
life to this school. I love it.
But some person and essentially like an ivory tower has made
this decision that like senior leaders can't work part time in
our trust and that's it. And you can't help but take it
personally. And I loved my kids, but
ultimately I loved my own SO even more.
And when? You when you say with you, it's
when you say that out loud. There are some people who listen
to what you just said. There'll be some people out
there who think, well, yeah, you know what?
You chose that, but, well, did you choose it?
Really. Like, should we even be in a
position where we're forcing professionals like yourself
who've worked so hard and gained so much experience and clearly
would be amazing for children to have four days a week?
You're still going to be fantastic at doing that.
It's it's so sad that we're kind of forcing people out of the
profession, I feel like. And and it's a loss, isn't it?
Losing people like you in a school is a loss.
And we just, I'm, I'm so glad. Like, I know it's annoying five
years too late, but I'm so glad that schools are moving too.
Do you know what? We're in a retention crisis
right now. And if I'm going to just make an
arbitrary rule up which just says, well, I don't fancy that.
Actually, I don't think we want that.
You're going to lose amazing people like yourself. 100% that
is, that is exactly what has happened.
Like I've seen so many amazing colleagues that have gone into
other things and it, and it is, it's awful.
Like it breaks my heart. And but yeah, everything happens
for a reason. And I didn't know what I was
going to do, but I realised that actually now I could do
anything. And that was quite liberating.
It's quite. Liberating, isn't it?
It's like, oh, wait a minute, I have got these professional
skills and these abilities, I can still apply them to
something else. 100% like I had those the few days where I sat
like, and then I was like, what are you doing, Ruth?
And it's evolved. So I worked in my second school.
I worked for a head teacher who was brilliant, was amazing.
I don't think I realised at the time how much of an impact he'd
have on my life. But at that point I really
wanted to be key stage phase leader.
And I was class teacher and he like pulled me into his office
and he said the problem is like, you don't know what your thing
is. He was like, I don't know what
what your thing is. Like what do you stand for?
What are you going to lead on in education?
And I remember leaving his office and being like, what does
he know? I'd be a great tell.
Me what I am and I'm not. But honestly, not like that
stuck with me. And I don't think I really knew
what my thing was because actually I was in a system.
I was doing what I was told to do.
And this became more apparent than ever in the very last
school where I worked where there was quite a few changes,
like we became academies, there was new leader.
It was a lot of things changed and the way that I'd always
ruined my classroom was very play based and I taught children
who were, I had mixed year 12 class at this point.
Some of those children that were in my class developmentally were
working around 3 years old if not younger and I had some
severe like complex needs in there.
I had children with English as an additional language.
I had children with like the most horrendous safeguard
situations that you could possibly think about, like their
home life. I just cannot imagine what they
carry on their shoulders and would bring into that building
every single day. And through the way that I
taught them, honestly, like play was so powerful and I genuinely
believe that being able to teach my children in a play based way
was everything those children need.
It was their therapy, it was their opportunity and their
space away from whatever their home life was, regardless of
whether they were like in the affluent school or in the socio
economically deprived school. All children have home lives
that we can't even imagine behind those closed doors and
play. When we allow children to play,
the toys that they use are like their words and their play is
their language and it's how they process.
So just like for you, for example, if you something sad
happens in your life or something amazing happens in
your life, we might go onto social media and we put a post
out and say something horrific happened to you.
Like, Oh my goodness, I can't believe this has happened.
It's made me feel like this. It gives you you've processed
it. I was feeling this.
I've put it out there in my words, however works for you now
I feel better. And children need that too.
And the way that children do that is through play.
So it was so powerful for supporting them to just feel
regulated, to feel one, to almost just feel just right, to
be able to learn the best that I could give them.
You know, I can't, I don't have a magic wand.
I can't wave this stick and, and take everything away from them.
But I could do my best. I could give them the tools, the
time and the space to just be into process.
So I felt like it was their therapy.
It made them feel good and that's what I wanted.
But also for these children, again, I had some really like
high Flyers. Like I've always remembered this
one boy. I just again, like the
background that he came from, how incredibly intelligent he
was and creative and smart on it.
I used to just say to him, I was like you, you blow my socks off
all the time. I'm like, you blown my socks off
again. Like it was just such a pleasure
to have like a little impact on his life and push him, like be
able to push him in a way that was that was playful and joyful.
And so play as a vehicle for learning allowed me in that
moment to really support my learners that were working to
work towards that were definitely pre key stage that
had been through early years, had been to nursery.
But actually when they went to nursery reception early years,
they weren't ready for that. Then they weren't ready.
So they were in the building. You know, the teachers had done
their best for them. But then they they'd come to
year one and actually they essentially they needed another
year of early years. They were then ready for early
years. I'd be like, now you're ready
for early years, but now you're in year one.
Yeah, and I just was like, you know what, They need another
year of early years. That's what I'm going to
essentially give them. So I could be practical.
My learning could be multi sensory.
My learning didn't have to be like, you have to do this now,
right now, because this is what I'm going to say you've got to
do because that's the way it is. My learning would be OK, go and
do that. Then when you feel ready, let's
have a go at this. And so I could support children
to be more intrinsically motivated.
I could teach them from the ages of five.
These are these children in my class who actually take some
ownership over. I am going to have a go at that
and I do want to do that and I am going to be a successful
learner. But I just need to do XY and Z,
get that out of my head or feel a little bit better and then I
can commit to it and I'm going to get it done.
And obviously there is a time and a place.
So certain things in life or in learning or in a classroom, yes,
we have to do it here and then we have to do that.
But actually, actually, 9 times out of 10, we can be more
flexible. I want you to do the best you
can do and for me, you will do the best you can do when you're
doing it, when you're ready to do it, however that looks or
however that feels. So yeah, that was it basically.
I saw that play was amazing for well-being.
I saw that play was amazing for getting children to learn.
I could push them through their play.
I could help them become curious independent learners more.
They didn't need to be spoon fed as much.
Like the conversations were fantastic that I would hear and
in allowed me to like really work with smaller groups and
really push those children on as well as really support my
younger learners with the practical element and those
sorts of things. So then I suddenly realised,
well, play, play is my thing. I.
That's my thing. You found it.
I was like this is my thing. You should have run that head
teacher up. I found it.
I've got it. No, I do think like one day I'm
like, maybe I should, maybe I should get in touch with them
and be like, you actually realised the impact you had.
But. Even though I was doing my
thing, even though I knew my thing was play.
Now I realised play was my thing when it got taken away.
This. Is what I was going to ask.
I realised that's like it was my thing because I was just doing
it. I didn't really know anything
else. This is just how I did it.
This is just what it was like we had.
Was it, was it just was it frowned upon?
Was it banned? Was it, you know, was it someone
coming in and saying actually end goals?
You know, I'm looking at end of the school career.
They're not going to be playing when they're in year 6.
So, you know, they just get used to it and get over it.
Or was it just very much that's policy, Sorry, get over it.
So we got taken over by an Academy.
We had a new executive head and that's when for me, I suddenly
realised, Oh my goodness, this is so hard.
So obviously I was deputy head teacher, so I was within that
school. I was that senior authority
figure. I had to kind of follow the law
of the land like this is the way it was.
But up until that point I've sort of been able to really put
my own influence on it. So it was fine, you know, it was
great. And then they came in and it was
this like trust wide policy. So key stage 1 became so formal,
like I will never forget. I used to have this gorgeous
little role play area in my classroom.
It was handmade, it was from wood.
It was literally like a wooden frame.
And in there it was like we could just change it into
whatever the children could make it, whatever they wanted to do.
And the one day she came in and she was like, why, why have you
got why have you got a role play class in area in a year one and
two classroom? And I explained, like, you know,
some of these children can't even form a sentence speaking.
How are we going to get them to write a sentence when they don't
even have chance to practise talking a sentence?
And we've just been there to model that and help them with
that and all those social skills that they're learning, you know,
that's crucially what they need. I just remember saying something
like that that to her and she's like, well, that's not what they
need and that needs to go. So I had to take that out of my
classroom. When you did that, sorry, when
you, when you took down your class because I'm so fascinated
by this because I think up and down the, the country, there's a
lot of teachers in this position where they know their children
best and they think This is why I'm doing it.
But then they're told, well, there's a policy and although
there might be 5 ways to do something, you're doing it this
way and that's the end of it. How did, how did it make you
feel Literally taking that down and taking out the classroom
when you know full well there'll be children in your room now in
your class who won't get as much out of your classroom as they
did before. Like what did that make you feel
like? I remember going home to my
husband and saying to him, I'm in a battle with my head and my
heart because my head is saying this pays our bills.
This is the dream job I always wanted, this is what I have to
do. You also start to doubt
yourself. Well, someone more senior is
saying that actually that's not what they should have.
So maybe I have got it wrong. Maybe that is what they need.
And then my heart was saying like, don't be so ridiculous.
That is not what they need. Like you're going to be failing
these children. I know again, that's a massive
word to say, but genuinely that is what I felt because I knew
what they needed. And suddenly what they needed
was I was told I had to take away.
So there was a battle in my head and my heart.
And I just remember I used to say to my husband, I was like,
this is my job, I'm going to work.
It pays for nice things. I'm going to go on holiday.
In my head, I was like, this is what it is like.
I had to compartmentalise what I believed inside of me, my heart,
and this is what I have to do. And you know, like the role play
was one example. And then the next thing to go
was my gorgeous, like, creative area.
So I had this really nice trolley where we'd put like, you
know, paints and art and the kids can go and access that
whenever they needed to, or we'd have groups over there and that
had to go as well. And it all just started.
And then things got introduced like they had to do whole class
reading and they all had to sit on their chair or that was
another one. I had like a group of children
that were struggling with a maths concept.
So I'd got them on the floor. I mean, we're just using
something like little hair bears to do it practically.
And again, I remember this as clear as day.
The executive head walked around with the CEO and came into my
classroom and saw me like on the floor with these kids.
And then after that, she was like, you don't ever sit on the
floor again with them. Like why?
Why? Why?
Like honestly, it winds me up a bit because I just think to
myself, there's two, there's two prongs.
This, I suppose one is as a professional teacher, like just
leave me alone. Like I'm not, I'm not sat on the
floor to make a point at you. I'm sat on the floor because in
this moment it's better for the children to be in this situation
helping me. But the second one I think of,
and maybe this, when you had your children, you flipped
slightly in your mind. I've got a 2 year old, a 2 year
old son now. And I think about when my son
goes to school, if he's in a situation like you just
described on the floor doing some maths, I want that for him.
Everything you've described and taught so passionately about
play, which was so nice to hear by the way, when you were
talking about it a second ago, because you clearly a passion of
yours that's embedded in it being good for the children.
And when I think about my own child, I want him in that
environment when he can go and do role play for a minute if he
needs to, where he can go to a creative section.
And what, what I don't need is someone coming in telling the
teacher that that that my son is with all of the time what is and
is is is right and is wrong for them, especially when it's an
opinion. And actually we can go even
further and say it sounds as if from the the posts I've seen
from you, it's not even an opinion.
Play based learning is fantastic for the children and that's what
frustrates me. Yeah, exactly.
There is. There's noodles and oodles and
oodles, the one of a better word.
That is the weirdest word I've ever used.
The executive head would not like you to use oodles actually.
Thank you. We won't be finding that
dictionary. That is far too playful of a
word. Playful words banned.
We don't want them. We don't want them anymore.
We've got a list of 200 words and they're the only ones You
can say thank you. And no, it's not on there.
You can't tell me no. Oh.
Geez. Yeah, exactly.
So the, you know, the research behind play isn't just something
that's a nice to have or an extra aura.
You know, this is something that kids might enjoy.
It's an enrichment opportunity. Don't get me started on that.
I feel like there's so there's so much to break down here.
I know. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Let's let's, let's stick to, let's stick to the research.
Yeah, if, if you just think about them.
OK, let's stick to for a second because I've got a question
about the practicalities of it as well.
So maybe we can do both here. Where one is the, the research
seems to me from what I've seen and what I've seen you post and
what I've gone away and read myself is that play based
learning is a really good way, especially for younger children
throughout key Stage 1, even even though it's not statutory.
And we'll talk about your petition in a minute.
It, it seems as if the, the research is saying this is a
really good way for children to learn.
Maybe it's my key stage 2 mind that comes into play here where
we don't really have any play based learning.
When I'm teaching my year fours or fives or sixes that I think
to myself, that's fantastic and I completely agree with what
you're saying. And I want my son in a room like
yours that you're describing. But how practical is it when
when you do have freedom for children to go and play and
explore and and do all the things they're doing as they go
through year one and year 2, and that gap tends to become wider?
The lowest child and the highest child attaining it sounds like
you can hit them all. But how practical is it in a
classroom? How can you make it happen?
How can you do it effectively? OK, first of all, the biggest
thing you need to know is that children are capable.
Children are so capable when we allow them to be now traditional
teaching methods that we've all used that we've all had to that
happens in our schools now is how England is they enable our
children to you'll, you'll see like short term gains.
So I can teach my children to a test essentially and the data
will look good because I've taught them to this test and I
have got that short term compliance, but it undermines
that long term resilience, that long term well-being, that long
term engagement that I want to do.
Whereas if I learn through a play based approach, that
strengthens all of those things. So actually you're saying, well,
how practical is it when a child's in year 2 or year three
or year 4, if they've had a play based approach to their learning
continued from early years, they will be the most inquisitive,
curious, like fascinated, problem solving, enriched
children you could imagine. And when children are given the
opportunity to learn rather than be like, for want of that famous
quote, like an empty vessel to be filled, you see a shift in
our children. So, you know, the research shows
that this has over 50 years of research.
And it's not just within education, it's within
neuroscience, it's within psychology, it's within
education, it's within play. It all aligns.
I've actually got a research document that I've put together
for the petition and to to support people.
So maybe we could pop that in absolutely.
Show notes down below, we'll link to the petition and we'll
link to all that as well, definitely.
Because people always say to me like, can I read this, this
research? And I'm like, yes.
You are. It's here.
Please do. So I worked with one of my
friends who's called Doctor Wills Apellini and we put this
document together and so we can put that there.
So in terms of how does it, how would it work, practically all
children will be different. Now if tomorrow we suddenly went
OK, every classroom in the whole school's play based, would it
crash and burn and go to collapse and all the teachers be
like, Oh my God, what has happened?
Probably yes, it would because children haven't been allowed to
learn in that way for at least the last like 15 years in key
Stage 1 long. I don't think they've ever
learned like that in key Stage 2.
But in some schools, there are schools, there's some amazing
schools. I've done case.
I've read case studies on them that actually have continuous
provision up to the end of year 6.
Right. That, that very quickly on that,
that, that is fascinating to me. And I, I, I want to be, I, I, I
want to be able to provide that for kids as well.
And I think it's great. And on continuous provision, you
mentioned about, about play, because continued provision is
another thing. I think if you're an upper key
stage teacher, you might have just like heard of and not been
sure about, but with continuous provision, that's from my
understanding very much how you implement it as well.
So like embedded hearing, what does it look like in a
classroom? Well, continued provision is
something and in your petition you say do you know what, we get
it in early years, we need to make it statutory at least for
key Stage 1. So maybe yeah, if you could just
outline to people listening saying I've heard of continuous
provision, but what's it's link to play and what might it look
like? So your continuous provision is
essentially the environment the the provision that is set up all
the time for your children to be able to access.
You don't really change it, but what is in it enables the
children to play. So it's things like, you know,
your blocks, your cars, your. Your house that you had in your
in your room, your creative corner that you got taken away.
The role Playhouse that I had, and as children develop, that
changes. So what we put out for them
developmentally adapts, changes. There's some things that we'd
continually put out. There's some things that we
change. So you might put like a hammer
and nuts and bolts. You can do that in early years,
but actually with our year six children, we might really use a
hammer like. You're.
Going to trust children. I mean, really, risk assessment
kids. We're not saying don't do risk
assessments, guys, doesn't mean it doesn't mean we don't really
do this safely. But you're going to essentially
give them the access to your provision that they can access.
You might have loose parts in there.
By loose parts I mean objects. Basically it's just things.
It could be like a natural loose part like fighting pine cones,
or it could be like a man made and loose part.
Like I'm trying to think of something like nuts and bolts.
Exactly. But it's it's from what you're
describing here. And the thing I think it's a no
brainer is every single child I've ever seen in the school
benefits from this open-ended learning where where they lead
it. Like we even even in the more
traditional methods of teaching that we've spoken about, we
often must start maybe a science lesson with a big question or
maybe ADT lesson with, OK, how does this work?
And I think I think you're absolutely right, even even down
to little things like that, we can put more of that in when
children are getting older, which is just trusting the kids
a bit more. And I suppose what I wanted to
put you as well was this whole problem, I think, and I think
you summed up perfectly with we are assessing how good something
is for a child based on what the end result will be in a test
that we've created ourselves. And we think, OK, well, in a SAT
paper at the end of year six that we've decided is the way we
judge children by the way we we're in control of this.
But because that exists while I've got to be more form of my
learning more quickly. And I guess in in your ideal
world, if it is play based and you know, we're we're thinking
about resilience for the child and critical thinking and
problem solving and just being able to be more social and
express themselves. All of these unbelievably,
undeniably great things for children when the end of the
school system doesn't really remotely judge them on that and
schools aren't assessed by that. Do you think that this change
needs to come hand in hand with how we judge schools and how
ultimately we judge children when it comes to formal
assessments? Yes, but I also think so, yeah,
IA 100% need think the education system needs, it needs a reform.
Like for me everything about our education system in England is
top down. So what we do in secondary
school, we just push lower and lower and lower and lower and
lower and lower and lower. For our youngest children.
We need a bottom up approach. They acknowledge the government
acknowledged that what we do in early years works really well.
They acknowledge that play based learning is critical for these
children. But once you turn 5, that
suddenly stops. We know that's not true.
You know, when we look at when we compare our education system
to education systems around the world, most of them and actually
the ones that are superior to England have a play based
kindergarten at least, which goes to the end of year 7.
So even places like Singapore or China where you think, oh, it's
really, really formal, they actually have play based key
stage one. It's us that don't.
And then their results are better at the end.
So do I think it goes hand in hand?
Yes, But I also think that if we had a play based the best
approach to our learning, our results would be better anyway.
Because I truly don't believe and just from the way I've
worked with children, my experience, the what the
research shows us, you don't need to like be brainwashed A
SAPS paper every single day of your life for a year to be able
to pass it. I can teach you.
I can develop that love of learning.
I can set things out within my environment within that
continuous provision that are going to test you, stretch you,
enable you to use that thinking and apply it in a way that isn't
just in a textbook. So that then actually when I do
my guided teach with you, when I have you is I'm not not teaching
you. You're not playing all day.
I'm still doing like my whole class teach.
I'm still having my groups out to come here.
But then you've got those in moments to apply what you've
learned in a way that is not just pen and paper.
I I think if we have our play based learning throughout, our
results would improve because our children would be healthier,
they'd mentally healthier, they'd be happier, they'd be
they would just use these skills in real life as well, not just
short term gain for piece of paper.
So yes, it does go hand in hand, but the government aren't going
to change that anytime soon. Well, let's see.
They've got their review, a curriculum assessment review
coming out soon, which we are looking forward to.
But I did e-mail Professor Becky Francis, who's leading that, and
I did get a response which was positive about, you know,
they've heard about Key Stage 1. So I am hopeful for that.
But well. Imagine, imagine if you know,
you're pushing and getting things out there and getting the
conversation started. Imagine if that new correct
thing comes out and and it really does, you know, play as a
vital part of key stage 1. I guess that that does segue.
I was really nicely into your petition.
I'd just like to talk to talk about that briefly, which is
you, what you've been pushing online and you know, again, go
and follow what's your handle on Instagram for people to come and
follow you? So it's at my mummy teacher.
Perfect. So you can go and follow and
keep up to date with the signatures and how they're
growing and getting more and more.
But let's let's just talk now then what you're really pushing
at the minute. And I think you've you've talked
about playing continuous division and why it's so, so
important, so well. And I'm I'm really on side here.
So anyone else listening who thinks that this is important,
they are, it's definitely someone who should go and sign
your petition. So what is this petition about
Key stage 1 and play and and continuous provision and what's
your aim and where are we at with our signatures?
What's the current situation? OK, so just before I say that, I
just want to say off the back of playing Key Stage 2, if you're
thinking, Oh my goodness, this is overwhelming.
There's absolutely no I could do that, which is probably what you
are thinking if you're a key stage 2 teacher.
Me, a key stage 2 teacher here who's on board and thinks that
still. That is OK.
You can think those things. We can do phases like even just
playful learning, even just taking what you're teaching and
doing in a practical, joyful, playful way is better.
You don't have to go whole hog. Like we've got our gold standard
and then we've got our just making things more playful.
We're going to aim for our gold standard.
It's a journey. You're not going to get there
overnight, but being playful, gamify, all of those things will
make a difference to your children.
So then after the back of that, the petition I set this in June,
I think it was June or July, they've merged into one, don't
they? The day, months in the middle
somewhere, yeah. Tuesday and I said one day, you
know, I just speak to people all the time.
It's what I speak about, You know, my business, MMT play, we
sell. That's what we sell.
We sell learning resources to help people help their children
learn through play. And I'm having these
conversations and so many times I'd be at a trade show or I'd be
in a school and people would say, oh, you know, we'd love to
do this, but XYZ or I wish that we could do that, but this isn't
the way it is. You know, that's just how it is.
The government, the curriculum, the expectations.
And I just thought, like I said to at the beginning, I was like,
do you know what? Now I've left, I can't say
anything within reason, anything within separating and actually
I'm not going to be that person that moans about it and doesn't
do anything. So I'm just a woman.
I'm just a tit. I'm not just a woman like God,
that sounds. Don't take that out of context.
I'm not just a woman, I. Would clip this podcast.
I'm afraid that's going to be the headline now.
But I'm just a person with a passion and proof that play is
the answer. I all it's this.
It is the solution. Research shows it as anecdotally
we can show it as we can compare to other countries like Finland,
Sweden, around the world. It is the answer.
So I thought, you know what, I'm just going to do it.
People are like, we should do a petition.
Yes, we should, and we're going to.
I was sat in bed, it was like 11:00 at night.
I was in my pyjamas. If you go on my socials and look
at the picture when I first put it on, it is a selfie of me in
my pyjamas. And I was like, I've just done a
petition and that's it. And then it got released.
And then within the first 48 hours, we had over 35,000
signatures. Wow, we're now on 76,000.
We need 100,000 by January the 3rd.
If we get 100,000, it goes to parliamentary debate.
It can have real impact. So I've been and like amazing
people that have also been like, this is what I needed.
Like I believe this for so long, but I need, we need someone to
like take the first step. That's all I did was take the
first step. Like now, everyone else has to
run with it. Yeah, yeah, I've done my bit of
my pyjamas. Come on.
And people have been emailing their MPs.
There's like a template for that on my blog.
We've met with MPs and it's the conversation.
So for me, my, my aim is that this gets to parliamentary
debate, is that that conversation is happening at
that higher level within the government.
We are making people aware. We are asking the questions like
I've got all this research to show you that play based
learning is the most effective way.
Please show me yours that says it's not right.
Please show me yours that says a formal approach to learning is
the best way that children learn.
Yeah, because they can't at the end of the day.
Like honestly, we talk a lot on this podcast.
We say a lot of things where we always try and make a real
distinction between when something's an opinion maybe and
when something is just rooted in evidence and a fact.
And, and every, everything's pointing me down the road here
of from listening to you, from seeing the research, seeing what
you post. It's just better for our kids.
And I think that passion like just shine through when you talk
about it. And, and people like me are the
kinds of people I'm hoping are also listening to this podcast
now and going, do you know what that that is good that this is
what our children need. And yeah, all the all the
worries I might have or the reasons why I might think it
might not work, etcetera, It all kind of it just it just pales in
comparison to the impact that it can clearly have on our
individual people growing up in our society.
And yeah, I think I think it's fantastic.
And the the petitions about key stage one right making it
statutory because is it is it even mentioned in the curriculum
now for Key Stage 1, is it like suggested or is it just not
mentioned at all? So in early years, it's
literally like this is what you do, this is how kids learn.
And then in key stage one, it's just follow what they do in
secondary school. Yeah, it's you're right though.
It's so when you, when you point out it's so true that it's, it's
top down, it's like we're not thinking of where you start.
And then when you maybe you change or adapt or move, it's
just like, well, top down. I guess early years, they can
play, right? They're little kids, they always
play. It's like, no, I think this is
the other thing. When you say play, some people
think of, oh, what, the 15 minutes at break time.
It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We're talking about structured play where, yeah, we let the
kids do what they want, but for your continuous provision,
you're allowing them. You're still doing your
teaching. Like you said, it's not just a
free for all and just changing that perspective on play.
I think a lot of people will go, do you know what?
I, I should sign this petition actually, because my kid, if I,
if you have kids out there, I want my son Rory to be in a
classroom when he's 6 or 7 embedded in play.
I'll be perfectly honest. And it, it's a pedagogical
approach, that's what it is, it's a recognised pedagogical
approach. And and that's that's what we
want for our children and the petitions to make it statutory
in Key Stage 1. That would be the gold standard.
But actually for me if and I know this is happening, so I
went into a school yesterday and well two schools yesterday
people spoke to me and they are looking at introducing
continuous provision into their year one.
Now for me, like that is impact and, and my, my dream is that it
becomes statutory. My life.
That's my gold standard. My silver is that we get a
debate in Parliament and we raise more awareness.
But my bronze is to know what I've got 76,000 people and more
talking about this. It's a numbers game.
If 76,000 people know about this, then at least 20,000
people are going to be like, I actually want to do that.
And as yesterday showed me, two people came and said because of
your petition we have now considered or we are trying to
do this. And genuinely, that for me is
like, I've done something. You, you've, you've already had
an impact roof honestly and hopefully through through this
chat and our audience again, listening to this, even if
they're in the upper key stage, but they're working in a school,
they're going to start this conversation with with leaders
and say, look, this is embedded in research.
We can link down below. Like you said, the research you
put together and and yeah, and and like just keep this
conversation going and I'm going to do a big call to action right
now. Go and sign this petition
because I think it's a petition worth signing.
I'm going to share it on our social media as well and yeah
get to 100,000 right let's. Just do that.
Let's just do that for our kids, for our kids, and then we can
worry about the how after. Yeah, yeah.
The practicalities, the timeline don't.
Worry it will happen. We can help you.
Let's just get it there because like you said as well, you know,
the government response was about referred to play as in
playtime. They didn't even whoever wrote
that, which concerns me didn't understand.
The petition is for play, playful learning, learning
through play, whatever you want to call it in the classroom.
That tells you how how much of a crisis this is.
Yeah, like they, they, the people that we're sending this
off to don't even understand what we're talking about.
Yeah, for sure, Ruth, I've, I've really enjoyed that chat and I
love your passion about play. And, and I think if we Fast
forward five years and we see your gold standard, I think our
children will be in a really better place in our society.
So thank you for everything you're doing.
You're very welcome. Thank you so much for having me
to chat. It's been a pleasure and let's
hope in five years I'll come back and I've like everyone to
say about the last five years. Well now everyone play full
score. New gold standard play up until
work, even when you're in work all the way through life.
Amazing. Thank you so much.
Thank you. OK, Hayden, are you feeling
threatened now? It's your position of Co host.
Yeah, another person taking my Co host.
So was it the last time? Alistair Campbell.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just, you know, just just a few
people I mixed with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I honestly, it was a fantastic chat.
And thank you, Ruth as well. I will say thank you even though
I wasn't there, I would have loved to have been there.
And also well done because you actually enjoyed a chat with
Dylan for 45 minutes or so by yourself.
And that is a, you know, it's, it's no mean feat.
It's taken me many years to to master this.
I'll be honest with you. So.
Even I can say that I'm I'm quite impressed when anyone puts
up with me for that long, so it's a fair play.
Thank you. You know what the sign of a of a
really good chat is genuinely when you have an expert on like
roof and you're just listening. Most of that was you just
listening, asking questions and me not talking at all.
You not talking, generally not making any noise and just trying
to find out more. And when I was listening
through, I felt like I learnt loads and the overarching I
wrote down loads of notes and by the end of it, I thought, do you
know what the thing I really, really want to get across by the
end of this conversation is that who am I to like chat?
Well, if you you're going to ask me my opinion, who am I to
challenge the research? Like she made a really good
point. I used to try to challenge her
and like and say, oh, but in the classroom practicality wise, I'm
in year 4. Like I don't really know what to
do. I don't have to do this.
Like, do I really need to? And there's a test at the end of
year 4, like we kind of just need to get them to that.
And then there's the key stage 2 Sats.
And yeah, this is all great, but I need to get them passed this
test. Even though, yeah, sure, we
could decide not to do the test, but we are, it does exist.
So what do we do? And she said, well, yeah, that's
cool. But also it is just a wrong
assumption to think that if you're doing play based
learning, you're therefore not learning properly.
Like you can't then do English and maths as well.
The whole point is you can. Like it makes a more holistic
child. And I thought that was really
important. And she said something really
powerful, which is all the research is there and it and all
of the case studies is all there.
And it strongly suggests that this is a fantastic way.
It doesn't suggest it proves this is a great way to build up
children holistically and guess what, they become better
learners everything when you when you do it this way.
And then she said, where's I want to see the evidence that
says this doesn't. Work.
Yeah, I thought that was really good.
That was such a good argument. It made me, it just grounded me
because, yeah, I've got, I've had my opinions and very similar
to you going through, I had my sort of doubts and questions of
like, well, but how do I do it though?
Like this all sounds great in ideology and theory, but like,
I'm not sure how to apply this in my Year 6 classroom.
I don't know what to do. Like practically, I can't
provide this for 32 kids. Well, actually, clearly you can.
And clearly there's loads of research out there that says
it's great. And who am I to say that you
can't do it genuinely Like what? Why do I get to say shut that
down? Like the toxic like Academy.
Yeah, yeah, Lily. That she had that came in and
just said, Oh yeah, don't do that.
We don't have that in a year one classroom here.
What? What?
Yeah.
What just said, oh, this is really good for the kids, for XY
and Z. Oh yeah, it's not though.
Yeah. But but I just think that's not
what we do in year 1. And and it's yeah, I agree.
I'm getting to that point now where I'm just like, look, your
own kind of your own point of view is obviously important,
right? But when faced with facts and
cold hard research into something like this, I, I think
there's always that balance between, OK, what's my
experience of something and what does the research say?
And I think in this case with play, it's just so heavily
weighted towards, well, it's so clearly good for our kids.
And when the arguments against it are rooted in, well, it's
just what we've always done this formal way of doing it.
Well, it's just the problem because it's hard to implement.
I've not heard anyone argue against play with a point that's
really strong in, in and of itself rather than simply like
an inconvenience maybe or, or something where I just, I just
think, no, it's like, well, that's not really an opinion.
If you come at me with some solid research and said this,
this, this, we can have a discussion and maybe we can have
a hybrid approach. And I loved what she said about
play can be introduced, not even necessarily as embedded in your
learning completely, even though maybe that's what she would like
to see. And I think that would be good
for the kids. But you can just introduce some
child LED activities, introduce some ideas where maybe something
we do already, like in a science lesson, ask a question, put some
stuff out and see what the children do to experiment
themselves. And just moving that towards
them becoming more independent thinkers, problem solvers,
things that don't necessarily get judged by the tests at the
end. And that's the point I was
making is that it needs to come with an overhaul.
And I loved her response because it wasn't just, yeah, we need to
change everything. It was, look, the government
aren't going to get rid of Key Stage 2 SAT.
So, so great. I could sit here and say, yeah,
absolutely. Or I can make the other point,
which is fine, keep the SAT, but we're still going to create more
rounded children who also can still do English and maths.
It's not an either or. It's a pedagogical tool where we
can still get children to end goals.
And I was like, that's powerful. That was to me was the most
powerful argument is saying that we can still have your end goals
that you want and they'll be better at it through this.
It's just a better approach for the majority of children.
I truly don't believe. And also we've said it in
everything we've ever done this podcast, that there is not a one
size fits model for every child ever.
But clearly the evidence is here behind play based, play based.
Learning, Well, that's why I like play based learning, by the
way, because we say there's not one-size-fits-all.
And you might say, well, yeah, so obviously play is not good
for everyone. Well, no, play by definition is
something that isn't one-size-fits-all.
It's like it's like a paradox almost.
It's like what everyone should do play.
And it's like, well, you just said it's not one-size-fits-all.
No, I know, I know that. But but through play, it's child
LED and children get what they need out of it.
You can get that social support you might need.
You can get that kind of therapy that you might need.
You can get the learning you might need.
It's everything. And I, I just think it's so
powerful. And as someone who's never
worked in, in key stage 1 or lower, I look at it and I just
think it's clearly working really well in the early years.
It's such a shame. It seems to fall off a Cliff
when, when lots of children enter year 1 and that's it.
Now it's done just because they're in Year 1 and not
necessarily because what they need as an individual.
It's like, well, yeah, you were born at this point in time, so
no longer you will land by play. And it's like, why?
Yeah, it's just just because. Oh, that's not good enough.
When she mentioned, yeah, that child that's she's just as an
anecdote, she was like, oh, there's that child that comes up
to year one. It's like, oh, now you're just
about ready to start early years.
Yeah, yeah, basically. But you're in year 1 SOS so
doesn't matter. You can't do play anymore.
Because age is your age is more important than your actual like.
Your academic that's broken, but it just.
Just doesn't make any sense. But another thing that made me
reflect on a little bit is where I have had year 6, like you
said, for so many years. We quite often our school, we do
things like memories at the end of year 6.
It's really quite sweet. And we get the kids to just have
a check of them, a session where they get to reflect genuinely on
things that they've loved about being in school.
And it triggered my mind when you guys were talking about, you
know, just the holistic side of learning and play based learning
and what is enjoyable. You talk, you mentioned like the
science lessons at the start, you might do something really
fun and hooky and they obviously all enjoy that.
That's the stuff kids remember when when I every year when I do
memories and I say cool. What's your favourite thing
about year 4? It's always, honestly always
just one off the cuff thing like that.
It could be the smallest thing that you'd insignificant to you.
It was just part of your scheme of work.
And yeah, oh, you have to do this little experiment at the
start. They remember that because that
was really fun. Oh, is this time that I had the
freedom to do this thing that was creative.
That's the thing they remember for the entirety of year 3.
Is it all the way up to year 6, all the way there like school?
I think there's an argument to say that in not every school,
but school in general with formalised learning and the push
towards that, something is becoming so boring.
Like I've said it before it I'm sure some schools don't do this,
but it is just a bit boring, isn't it?
And uninspiring if you don't do, if you don't have any of these
creative hooky elements. Play based learning is like the
ultimate counter to this of like, yeah, let's just make,
let's make school enjoyable. You know how we've said before,
what's the point of primary school?
It's to foster inquisitive minds.
It's to make children question things and and become interested
in subjects so they can then go on and study them.
They want, if they're 16 and they want to study geography,
great. Do you know what?
I don't need to tell them all the stuff they learn when
they're 16 in geography, when they're eight.
I just need to get them hooked on the subject and make them
interested. And now to me, play based
learning fits more down that line of thinking, which I think
is the way to that we should be doing primary school more than
the current way of yeah, but formalised learning at all
points because we need to maximise, we need to maximise
the marks they can get in this written test.
Absolutely right. I think that's you've summed
that up perfectly and all I'm gonna do is clarify and and ask
you a bit about being bored 'cause 'cause I said we, we've
talked a million times before. How about actually, sometimes
children need to feel bored. Sometimes children need to do
some things that are boring. And, and absolutely, I agree
with you, though, it doesn't mean they're always bored.
What we're not saying here is that everything needs to be
boring all of the time. And I think we can't eradicate
boredom from schools. It's not our job to make sure
children are having the most fun they've ever had in their life
in every second of the day. Of course, we have to learn
things still. And Ruth addressed that.
You know, she still does her whole class learning.
She still does her teaching. You still have to learn stuff.
You still have to do stuff. Yeah, there is a, there is a
place in school for. Do you know what?
No, the next 1520 minutes we're doing this.
We're all going to do it. Sit down, crack on.
But it's embedded in a culture of everything, including some
play, including some free time, including some child LED
learning. It has to be that.
It has to be embedded in that continuous provision.
We're not saying I should have a free for all.
You know, kids run the school, do what you want all the time.
There's no rules anymore that I think I, I honestly think a lot
of people look at play sometimes as learning and think, oh gosh,
no, I'm going to lose control. Oh gosh, no, the kids aren't
going to learn stuff. Yeah, we have to address this
and we can't just say, yeah, isn't it lovely?
It's fancy, It's kids being engaged all the time.
No, it doesn't have to be what what it can be is kids are bored
doing stuff sometimes. That's part of life.
But you know what? The vast majority of what I'm
going to give you is based on what you need, and you're going
to lead it for me. And I think that's so powerful
and clearly better. And you will just be less bored
if you have that sprinkled into your diet.
You just want every teacher to think right now, especially if
you're thinking, yeah, play based learning is really not
that, like, rooted in our culture.
Just think back to the last time that you did do something that
you might say is a bit more like play based, like the science
thing, you know, some sort of activity.
You think yeah, there was a bit of childhood activity.
It was quite creative. They could kind of do what they
want and they were really inquisitive and interested
because they had that freedom. Think backs that lesson.
And then think about how when you did the quote unquote boring
stuff afterwards, the more formal stuff, how much more
engaged they were during that stuff because you allowed them
that bit at the start. That is what I imagine this kind
of sprinkling in does. It's like it makes the bit that
was intrinsically more boring less boring because you inspired
and engaged them with this fun bit before.
Like the I taking that as a concept, which I feel like play
based learning does, by the way, like if you were doing it really
well, that's to me, like the essence of it is taking that
concept and being like, should we do that to kids all the time?
And I'm like, yes, what that what is school?
If it's not that it's mad that we're getting, we've got to a
point where we don't even think that's what school is.
Surely primary school is exactly that, all the time sprinkled
into their diet So that formalised learning when you're
7. Yeah.
Isn't like sitting in an office when you're 42 doing a doing a
job all day. Like what?
It shouldn't be like that. Yeah.
There shouldn't be a similarity between the desk job at an
office 1717 hours a day, maybe 20.
Three. Well, we we like to exaggerate.
So they say 23 hours a day, 20. 3 hours a day and sitting in
this classroom they should not be the same.
It's embarrassing that they're even like, compared.
So true and I I love that point there of.
It makes the boring stuff more bearable.
We, it still has to exist. Yeah.
You still have to write stuff down.
You still have to show me some evidence of some writing.
You still have to do some bits. But it's.
Yeah, it's so embedded in a culture of these kids are so
happy all the time. They're so engaged, they're
leading, they're learning. And those schools, I I've never
heard of a school. And please write in, by the way,
if, if maybe you fit this belt. I've never heard of a school
who've expanded their continuous provision or expanded their play
and been like, oh God, it's the worst thing we've ever done.
I've only heard positive things. And it might be tricky to do and
it might feel like it's a big burden to kind of completely
change what you're doing. Give yourself some time to do
it, give your staff some training.
And my goodness me, I just, I just think of the individual
child. That's all I really think about.
And I go back to my son. I think about Rory.
If there was 2 choices were two schools that were identical but
one had continuous provision and play as a fundamental part of
how they do their learning further into their primary
school and one stopped early years.
I know where I choose my son to go, the one that does plain
continuous provision, so much more throughout the school.
That's so funny, the next room. But that's a couple of episodes
ago. We got asked like what we looked
for in a school. I think that's in my top three
because it wasn't when we were thinking about that, it wasn't a
top three because we weren't. We obviously just didn't come to
our mind. But actually now I'm like,
that's probably #1 you know, in all honesty, like my child
starting a school. Yeah.
Reception. I want to be seeing how much
continuous play, how much, how happy they're going to be.
Right. That's it, isn't it?
We talked about culture. Maybe we can kind of embed it
into our answer. Yeah, sneak it in a bit, but
really that's what I'm looking for when I say the culture of a
school being happy. Yeah.
Are the kids happy? And they're probably more happy
if they're not sat doing formalised learning all day at 6
compared to, Yeah, a bit of a bit of play sprinkled in.
Anyway, it was a really, really good chat.
I thoroughly enjoyed listening through it and I feel like I
learned a lot. Definitely challenged my
perceptions on it. And just I'm happy to admit that
it's like, yeah, I don't, I'm not that expert.
I'm not Roof, but the research is clearly there.
She's clearly passionate. I'm going to champion, I'm going
to go sign that petition and I'm not going to say Oh no, because
I've had this one experience. Therefore I think everything you
said is wrong. No, I can't, I can't challenge
it. I don't have the evidence to say
formalised learning is better than.
It's not there, so who am I to to say you're a nobody, mate,
But you're a nobody. I'm just going to host a podcast
myself from now on. But yeah, absolutely.
Down below all the links to Ruth's bits and bobs, especially
the petition. Go and sign it.
And if you enjoy this episode, it helps us more than you can
imagine if you leave us a lovely review and.
Share it with your friends who you think might find it.
Quite interesting, particularly this one.
Let's spread the word, I think of quality play provision in
primary schools. Hayden, anything to say before
we sign off for this week? See you next time.