Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Teach Sleep
Repeat. My name is Dylan.
And my name's. Hayden and we're back and the
Sats week are over. If you were involved in the
Sats, thank. That is over and done.
With the swearing. You swear a lot more these day,
guys. Yeah, I'm not going to do it
again because last time it was BBD.
Beep wasn't. It it was I, I think I put 13
bleeps in the last episode. I remember counting.
I think you've just made that number up.
Check them. This is AQ and A.
We are packed, jam packed at the minute, so one episode a week.
Hope you're enjoying it. Let us know in the comments down
below. If you are leave us a rating
share it. It helps us just one episode.
So the more plays we get, the better for us, isn't it?
Oh. Whoa, whoa, whoa.
It's just so hard. As little podcast creators, we
just we just need more love and sharing.
Oh. Just please, please, we need you
to specifically rate US five stars and share it with every
single person you know. Question 1.
You often say I agree. I agree it isn't.
I put that voice in. Were you being me?
No, no, I, I, I'm, I'm letting the person who asked this make
like take the Mick out. Of it.
OK. OK.
That's quite nice. Actually you often say I agree,
I agree to one another. What's the biggest thing you
disagree on? Teaching and non teaching.
Wowzers. I mean we do agree on a lot.
I'd say sometimes I agree as well just to shut you up.
Yeah, and I'd say sometimes I disagree just to have an
argument. Yeah, that's.
That's probably quite, Yeah. It's really frustrates me when I
disagree and you go, yeah, OK. And I'm like, oh, that's not the
sport. Sometimes.
Sometimes I just don't want to, you know, because I sometimes I
know that you can't win, that I can't win genuinely, because you
will disagree anyway. No, I'll go.
I'll go. What you.
Said you literally just said you'll disagree with me now you
just said you do that, Hayden. This is the perfect I.
Don't do what you said, OK? I never disagree with you.
Yeah. But you know, at the end of the
day, I think jokes aside, like, you know, we always talk about a
bit of an echo chamber and stuff.
And I think the reason we get on is because on the big things, I
do actually think we align pretty much like little detail
stuff, little you agree. I don't think that's true.
I don't think we align at all actually suddenly.
Suddenly, no, you've said that, Hayden.
I don't think we. Agree.
And I I'd like picking at stuff and digging at stuff more so
that we can get to the end guard.
And for a lot of people that I can imagine that's quite
annoying. And I'm sure it's annoying for
you to an extent, but I don't care because in my head, unless
it can be really properly justified, then it's got holes
in it and it it's worth going to infant degree about.
So I think for us it works quite well that we can just go down
that rabbit hole for other people watching.
Sometimes I can just imagine them being like, what the are
they doing? I.
Think we're I do think we're getting better better at it,
though. I feel like more recently in
episodes there have been points where you mainly, to be fair,
I've just literally said, oh, I fundamentally disagree or I I
couldn't disagree. More.
That's what I'm saying. I do a lot.
Yeah, but, but we used, I think we used to when people used to
say about it's always an. On the podcast.
On the podcast alone, we used to be a little bit more like, yeah,
we'd have to agree with everything.
We can't possibly disagree. Yeah, we can.
Do I disagree with you on Yeah. Go on thinking it's remotely
acceptable on a Monday morning to print an entire week's worth
of work. Take the printer for the 20
minutes before everyone needs it.
Yeah, like you. Are you laughing because I'm
being dead serious? I actually think it's selfish
and I really hate that buddy. It's weird because you use the
phrase before before everyone else needs it.
So I think it's completely fine then in that case, isn't it?
No, exactly. Everyone else needs it.
No, that's my point. And then during, no, no.
And then you're. There for half an hour.
Yeah, before everybody. Else no, no.
Yeah, because that half an hour goes on, funnily enough, until
when we've got that meeting on a Monday morning.
So we we come in for the meeting Monday morning, Hayden would
still be at the printer with his wad of paper.
Yay high, bigger than his torso. Yeah.
And and then. I'm sorry, guys.
I think honestly, anyone spending more than 10 minutes at
the printer on a Monday morning is selfish.
That's so funny. I I.
Everyone else needs to print for that day.
You're printing for the Tuesday after.
You are so hilariously wrong and I can and I'm going to tell you
why you're wrong right now. Because never once ever ever
have I sat there knowing I've got 20 minutes of printing while
someone else is waiting. I've done it anyway, not one
time in. My whole career when I was
waiting, but in the middle they'll pop their head, they'll
pop their head, see you doing it and just go away and not even
say anything. You wouldn't have even noticed
them in there making this up. And that is absolutely what
happened. No, they would.
I've I've been before into the printer.
Oh, Bolderlox is over there printing stuff 'cause you
fucking now. I'll go off then you.
Just you just use your no, no, my head comes round.
Oh, my head comes round. I'm going to just read from my
brain how oh that's got 20 minutes left on it without
asking. Yeah, 'cause I know what he does
on a Monday morning. Oh yeah, you guys are print for
the week. Don't print.
OK, alright. If you don't do that, fine.
It's rubbish. I've just said anyone who spends
over 10 minutes at the printer on a Monday morning when other
people have got a print for that day, yeah, is being.
Selfish. Yeah, God forbid the other
person just comes in and lets them know.
Oh, I would also like to do some printing.
No worries, I'll stop. Down then that's that's.
It's free. If the printer's free, why would
you not use it Class? You can use it, but just think.
Oh, I've only printed. I've already printed for today
and no one's waiting. I better come back tomorrow.
And no. Carry on, Carry on.
That's fine. Stop.
Yeah, you should. Start.
I do great. Well done for stopping.
Exactly, you should stop. Yeah, so you're gonna agree with
a made-up version? Of no, no, no, no, because I've
seen you do it before, but also also no, no, but just in
general. Now, in general, I just don't
think that's acceptable. I think there are certain points
where you don't do bot printing. The other annoying thing, you
only get one PPA slot a week. I remember being in PPA
thinking, oh, I'll print now because I know Hayden doesn't
have Monday morning, so I'll do it now on a Tuesday afternoon
when no one else is printing and I'll go there and I know they've
got to do their job and that's fine, I understand it.
But the office staff are printing 700 letters for the
whole school. Oh my God.
And then no one's there, No one's at the printer.
They just set off 700 on the printer, right?
Go off and do their own thing because they've got a million
things to do and they're very busy.
Beep, beep. Add paper to the printer so the
printer's not even printing anything.
Then you do, I've got to go back, get paper, load it up for
it to just churn out another 700 things in my BBA.
So my my point is in the mornings and in PPA, you should
only be doing jobs that you need to do for that day.
And if you're available to do it at any point in the day, like
the office staff are, if possible, where possible, please
do it in the morning when no one has PPA.
So when there are PPA slots and when there's morning stuff,
don't do your bulk stuff then unless you know for a fact that
it is free for you to do. And if you're going to do bulk
stuff, stay at the printer, replace your paper when it runs
out, and if someone comes to do something quick, get ready to
stop your printing and carry on after I.
Think that's fair enough? No, you're meant to disagree
with me. It's no point in this section
because you're disagreeing with something that I don't even do.
OK, that's fine. Now what?
You could do personal, right? Let's taking it personally.
Hayden isn't an. Attack on you?
Well. It should be you missed the trip
isn't an attack. I'm going to be.
I'm sorry. I'm just going to help you out
here in this argument against me.
Right. What you should have said was
even when no one else is around, it's still locally annoying when
someone uses up all of the paper and the ink first thing on a
Monday for the week. That would have been a good
argument, but you failed but missed it.
Because what you're doing is a classic thing of when someone
does something wrong and they go, well, no one told me it was
wrong. No one came along and said this
was a wrong thing. No, because they're too scared.
Because you've got a monopoly. You've got a monopoly of the
printer and you're a scary, scary man.
Right, Big man at printer. Oh.
Rubbish. You just.
Rule by fear and then because no
one says anything, it must mean it's fine.
Oh my classic gaslighting, honestly.
So that's my do you have anything you disagree with?
For me, no, just that a very. Unreasonable, man.
Yeah, well, that's the thing. Like we were.
We were thinking obviously before and I was like, at the
end of the day when it comes down to the meta stuff and we do
just generally. Agree.
How about like that? Go on then, go on.
Sorry you had something. That's it.
OK, How about with like we talked about learning walks.
I know you don't like the word learning walk rather than the
thing itself. However, I genuinely
fundamentally agree that it should be OK for anyone at any
point to go into any room in the school at any point whenever.
Well, I, I, for me, that would be my aim if I was working in a
school. There are some people and I feel
like maybe, maybe it's down to the environment it's built and
in general, I don't know. But I, I get the impression for
you, you're a bit stripped back to that where, you know, OK,
well, yeah, but just let them crack on with that.
Don't just walk in at this point.
I I like the idea of building up an ethos in a school where the
end goal is if anyone walks in any point it's a positive thing
and it's a good thing. Lots of people I think look at
that and go Oh no, no you shouldn't.
You shouldn't be in a lesson at this point.
It should all be pre planned. You should get lots of warning.
Even if it's nice, I don't care. I just want pre warning.
I guess that's my thing where I'm thinking more generic now.
What would people push back on? Probably.
That I understand it because some, you know, some people will
be anxious no matter what and and it will throw them off no
matter what. Doesn't matter when you're
getting game ethos. Because I ultimately think the
same in terms of I do think that should be the end goal that the
the school is comfortable enough where it's just OK if your head
teachers drop in all the time rather than doing like formal
observations that are anxiety times 1000 in the opposite
version. So again, like we are aligned.
Ultimately, I just think I consider other people a bit more
than you, that's all. Yeah, fair, fair.
Got a question here. It kind of leads.
On. No, not bite, it's not bite,
it's not bite. I just hate you every fibre of
my being. It kind of leads on.
So I'm going to go to this question now.
It's linked to what we were just saying.
What's your opinion in education that genuinely gets other
people's backs up? Not a cop out answer that you
know other people don't really get annoyed at, but something
that will Genuinely this is hilarious.
Genuinely make some listeners question if they like you
anymore. Enjoy :).
That's really funny. I love these kind of questions
because I think two years ago on this podcast we would have been
too afraid to say. So like I've done it before,
I've done something on social media before, like years ago
where it's like what, what teaching opinion has people like
this. And it's like a bloke with like
the sword, 10 swords at his neck.
And I've done something like marking is a waste of time.
It's like, no, no one doesn't think that.
It sounds contrary. Yeah, yeah.
It's like no one doesn't think that, but I'm trying to really
rack my. I think I've got 1.
I've got 1 and I and I'm 99.9% sure it'll be the same one as
you. Do you reckon?
Because we are again quite aligned with our thoughts.
Obviously we talk a lot so. It's an echo chamber.
Do you want to say it? Go on, I'll say it and then
we'll see. We'll see.
Because we, I personally didn't talk to you about this before.
Mine is that please don't hate me guys.
I think there absolutely should be a higher bar in terms of what
what teachers know and can do and have a knowledge base of.
And let me let me explain. Let me explain.
I think it's become acceptable sometimes for a primary school
teacher to say something along the lines of, oh wow, that year
6 maths is hard, isn't it? No, like, like, and this is
where people will get really annoyed at me.
And This is why I'm saying this. So if you do hate me because of
this, well I guess that's well done.
To the person who sent this question in, no.
If you're working in a school where you've got key stage 2 and
you could be technically placed in as a year 6 teacher, the bar
should be as a professional on a decent wage who's got a
qualification and not being funny.
You shouldn't be struggling with the maths that you're teaching,
OK. And, and it's become acceptable,
like all primary school teachers, they just have to,
there's so much they have to know.
There's, they have to do geography teaching and history
teaching and, and science and all that kind of stuff.
And I'm like, OK, OK, right, cool.
But for those really core subjects like English and, and
maths, you need to know your stuff.
You need to be a step ahead of the kids and you need to, in my
opinion, at the very least, have a comprehensive understanding
and ability to do the key stage that you're teaching.
Cool. So what do you want?
I'm going to get, you know, just make, take this further to get
you in more trouble. What do you really want to say
then? Because you see it all the time.
If someone comes up to you, right?
They're in a school, they're a colleague and they say that
maybe they're a year 1 teacher. I don't know.
And they say to. You year one's key stage 1.
Yeah, right. OK.
But OK, fine. They're a year 3.
Teachers I also I also still think they shouldn't key stage.
Two cool, OK, but either way, then year three teachers to make
this safer and they come up to you and you've been teaching
year 6 in this in this situation and they say, God, I couldn't
teach that year 6 stuff. I don't know how you do that.
That's weird. Have you got qualifications to
teach? So this is what you this is your
unfiltered. Version, my unfiltered version
is what do you mean you couldn't teach it?
It's adding it. It's adding two fractions
together. Yeah, so, so listen.
I don't just don't know how to do it.
It's tricky, isn't it? Yeah, I know.
Do you know what? OK, OK.
Honestly, teach yourself how to do it at the very least, OK?
You couldn't and you shouldn't be a teacher.
There we go. Like, like, like, I'm not.
I just couldn't do it. If you just can't understand
past progress, like whether you think it's relevant or not to
the kids, right. If you as a grown adult
professional can't understand a part of the curriculum.
Yeah, right. I'm sorry, You shouldn't be a
teacher. OK?
Should you know absolutely all of the curriculum at the back of
your hand immediately from the day one when you qualify?
That's also unreasonable because I just.
I I don't think anyone would know everything about the
curriculum, especially when they haven't taught right?
Even the core. Subjects.
Even in the core subjects, absolutely.
If you've just qualified as a, as an ECT, you've never been
placed in Year 5 or 6, never been placed in upper key stage 2
and you've never had to go that far.
It's a, it's completely acceptable that you don't even
know like, Oh, I wasn't aware that in year 6 you introduced
big mass. Like I, I, I knew it was this
thing that, that exists in the curriculum at some point, but I
wouldn't have known exactly when it was introduced.
And oh, I didn't get the nuance of, of how it goes up to, you
know, indices and then with brackets and without brackets.
OK, I didn't quite get that. I don't expect them to know that
off the back of their hand, right.
What I do expect them though, to be able to do is big mass like
like, or, or be able to look at it and within 15 seconds be
like, oh, that's the rule. Cool.
Yeah, Yeah. Like with spag, right.
There's loads of spag that I don't know.
There is loads of spag right now that I don't know from U-6,
Right. I genuinely 100% would be like
if you asked me, is this past progressive or subjunctive form
exactly that. If you asked me, I think I'd be
able to have a good go and I'd be thinking about subordinate
clauses or I'd think about what subjunctive is or look at it and
I'd use deduction and I'd have a good go, right?
Yeah, yeah, Yeah. But if you spent 10 seconds
telling me what it was, I'd very quickly be able to do it.
And what I'm saying is you get teachers who are in year 6 who
go wow, that I really struggle with that.
I'm like, why? Like we, we do expect 10 year
olds to know it. You're a professional in your
mid 20s with a qualification. All I'm saying is the bar.
We shouldn't be scared to have the bar high when we're talking
about our profession. We should be defending our
profession and have really high standards, not just for the
kids, way higher standards for the the teachers as well.
Yeah, I think so. I think so.
And that is, is essentially in essence what I was thinking as
well in terms of mine was all about the bar a bit more in
general. I just think my, my, my overall
opinion is I think the bar of being able to become a teacher
holistically has gone too low. Yeah.
I just think that is we have unqualified teachers right now.
Yeah, we have unqualified teachers.
OK, so so no. And again, This is why people
get annoyed. I'm unqualified and I'm good.
I know an unqualified teacher and they're better than a
qualified teacher. Okay, on an individual level, I
know that can happen. I understand that, right.
But obviously if you remove the need to have a qualification at
a certain level, it obviously lowers the standard in general.
Yeah, yeah, obviously. Of course, of course it does.
Like yeah, and lower the amount of pay you can justify.
Dividend exactly why else would you do it?
Which is what's happened exactly that and and you've, you know,
opened up the doors to to to it being lower paid like you said.
Yeah. I just think that it it's part
of my defence as as a profession.
I want to have this profession on a pedestal.
It should be the best of the best alongside me saying this,
by the way, this isn't just an isolated thing where I just go.
Yeah, that's the problem. Those bloody teachers don't know
enough. Alongside this is the pay needs
to improve to be more competitive with other similar
professions that are graduate jobs.
Alongside that, you need to make sure that we have qualification
status is still required. Alongside that, we need to make
sure the training is more adequate.
Everything needs to improve, but let's not pretend.
Also we don't need to understand that the bar needs to be really
high. As well it felt like it got to a
point in the last few years I remember thinking this where no
one wanted to be a teacher and teachers were leaving in droves.
And genuinely it was like how do we get more teachers in without
increasing their pay? And it was lower the bar then
lower the bar let more people do it.
And that, to me was. My friend got in after the bar.
Are you saying she's lower? Not necessarily.
You just can you have any kind of critical thinking whatsoever.
Like a macro level thinking, OK, let's go in the opposite way
because it's very easy to think if we increase the teacher pay
scale to let's say it was like 55 to 75 KA year, like really,
really a huge increase like 20K or whatever.
Do you think that that automatically would raise the
bar? Honestly, yes, it would pull the
other stuff up with it because then there'll be a massive pool
of people who want to do the profession.
It's competitive. Cool.
We can put the bar higher then. Exactly.
That's how it works. Like it is very simple economics
to be honest. With you.
Well, they put the bar up and actually it got someone in who
was worse. OK.
I think things can happen, like, OK, But in general, obviously we
all understand that's what's going on.
So this is so to try and get away from the the cutlass at my
neck. Yeah.
This is part of a wider picture, but it does feel like sometimes
you can't go onto that narrow level of also, like, I did just
hear the other day that, you know, there's a teacher out
there who couldn't use a ruler properly.
Like, like that's unacceptable. Cool off you.
Go. If you can't use a ruler
properly, you shouldn't be a teacher.
Oh, but don't be mean. That's not mean.
That's not always. If you can't use a scalpel
correctly, you shouldn't be a surgeon.
Oh, don't be mean. Don't be mean.
No, I will be mean. If that's mean, I will be mean
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The very basics of what you need to do is deliver the curriculum.
Like, can you struggle with stuff?
Yes. Yes, of course that's allowed to
happen. But you teach yourself it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you, you understand it.
And if you can't do that, and you don't understand it, and you
can't master it if you haven't mastered what you're teaching,
how on earth can the children master?
Yeah, yeah. And even that is still higher
than the bar that you've already said the bar is.
Can you do it? Like literally can you do it if
I gave you 5 hours with a teacher telling you how to do
the multiplying fractions and you can't do it at the end of
it? I'm sorry.
Bye. Bye.
Like you can't teach kids. It's not good enough.
So I think I'm, I've tried to get away from it.
I'm going to go back into I reckon.
We've done it by the way, I reckon.
I reckon there are literally people listening to.
This probably, Probably, but I don't care.
I'm going to round it off. I'm going to round it off.
I truly think if you're a key Stage 2 teacher, you should get
full marks on the Key Stage 2 Sats.
Or at least be able to give an error like you know.
OK, you wrote a six to zero and someone read it wrong.
Whatever. But you shouldn't can mistake,
you shouldn't. You shouldn't.
You should. You should be able to exactly.
That there's not a question you skip because you think I have no
idea how. To do this, yeah.
Or if you don't know how to do it, you very quickly look it up
and then you remember it because like I said before, you might
not have taught you 68. You don't need to know those
ridiculous GPS things that we all agree the kids shouldn't
need to know, but they do because we have to get through a
test. Yeah, I'm not talking about
that. I'm talking about the ability to
understand it. Like, like, can you, are you
able to understand and grasp this?
Like. And if the answer's no, then
like, of course we all agree that's that's not acceptable, I
think. We should stay on this a bit
longer. What do you think the benefits
are of teachers in lower? Like let's say a year 3 teacher,
then that's key stage 2. What do you think the benefits
are of a Year 3 teacher knowing they're not even in year 6,
Being able to do the entire Key Stage 2 curriculum?
100 it's it's massively beneficial because you know what
the learning journey is like. It's not a case of if they're in
year 3, you moved on to year 4 and five stuff because we know
that's not the best way to go about stuff.
However, if you know where they've come from and you know
where they're going, if you know what the end goal is,
particularly if you think about a key stage and ending up a key
stage 2, and they're going to have the assessment at the end
of where they need to be. You can have a really solid
understanding of actually, do you know what my role as a year
three teachers to make sure these are absolutely nailed.
You can prioritise what's really, really important.
You can understand that stuff later on.
Actually, do you know what? They will revisit this again and
again, right? Addition and subtraction, right?
When it comes to year 4, year five, year 6, they're going to
spend less and less time on it. It's going to be almost like
we're just adding a digit. It's not going to be the end of
the world. It's 4 digits now it's 5 digits.
But my job then as a Year 3 teacher is, do you know what?
I need to spend a lot more time in the conceptual understanding
here because I get that later on in the school year, as this
builds up, they're going to get less time because they're going
to be doing other stuff. So if you're more aware of that
journey and what those curriculars look like, it means
that you as a teacher can prioritise what is clearly more
foundational in that year group and more important.
And I think it makes you a better teacher because of that.
So again, the fact, yeah, you can do it or not, that's almost
separate to also you should just understand where the
curriculum's going. Because if if your start and end
goal is just the year group you happen to be teaching, not only
is that weak in terms of the children will not always be in
those confines. You'll have some children
working at year 1-2 level. You'll have some children who
could be working at year 4 five level.
If you only have the confines of understanding of your year
groups curricula, then the curriculum, then you will by
definition not be able to understand where those children
need to come to catch up. So I, I think in general it's
two separate things. Like it's almost a given that
you need to be able to actually do the maths that's involved in
a key stage 2. Like like, I'm sorry, just come
on, come on. You have to just be able to do
that. But then also it is way better
practise to have a good understanding of where the
curriculum goes as well. Yeah, yeah, as I was in,
obviously you know this, but I was in year 4 for the beginning
of my career. Then I went to year 6 and came
back to year 4. I was definitely, definitely a
significantly better Year 4 teacher after I'd had some
experience. What time Year 4 I just I the
prioritisation, you nailed it on the head.
It was exactly that. I knew which things this
mattered more and then it LED me.
So my next layer of thought to this is, and I do feel like it's
a barrier to school. I think some, there are really
good schools out there that can look at a whole key stage and
prioritise more appropriately across those year groups.
And there are also schools who don't do that and they get too
caught up in, yeah, but there's an end of year test for my year
group. So I'm not going to prioritise
certain things that might be better for this child
holistically in the next three years, Let's say they're in year
3, I'm going to prioritise stuff that will maximise their marks
on this end of year 3 test. And I think sometimes that that
can actually cause like, that's not a good thing.
Like we think, Oh no, we need to benchmark them every single
year. We need to make sure they're
getting the curriculum coverage. Yeah, we do to an extent.
But sometimes honestly there are situations when COVID really
highlighted this. There are situations where if I
was to choose with a child who's may be struggling in, in mass a
bit more in general between them having a really, really solid
core conceptual understanding of the four operations, but a very
loose understanding of of shape or a kind of superficial
understanding of both of them. And they'll get more marks in
their end of year test in this second version.
I wouldn't pick that one, even though ultimately in some
schools that's going to look worse on me and the school is
going to have that vision to see that.
Just going to say your scores lower, that equals bad 100%.
So I just think that there's a whole thing there I think
holistical to think about. Yeah, genuinely that I think has
missed a lot in schools because we have these very rigid end of
year test, end of year, end of year.
You're right, you're right. Because I think about, I always,
I remember I did a lot of my career in year 4, a lot of my
career in year 4. I did some in Year 5.
I did a bit of training in year 6 as well.
So I had an idea and just yeah, year three as well.
And true leading maths, you very much get a good idea of the
curriculum all the way through. So I did have that knowledge.
However, I did always remember thinking to myself, and this is
to be fair, the way the curriculum's already weighted in
a lot of schemes, you do spend a lot more time, especially in
your frame 4, on additional subtraction place value than you
would on shape, right? It's already weighted because
you've only got like a week or two on shape maximum.
However, I do just always remember thinking to myself, if
I didn't touch this, this strand or this subject, this part of
maths right now, if I didn't touch it in year 3 and then just
taught them in year 6 instead, which one do I think would have
the biggest negative impact in doing that, right?
So for example, I didn't do this in attraction in year 3.
Do you know what? I'll just do it in year 6
compared to I didn't do the names of shape in year 3 or 4
and I just taught them in year 6.
Clearly it's much, it's worth so much more of your time really
grasping and going deep into number and understanding number
and having really, really strong fluency and making links between
and being able to break numbers up.
There is much more use in going deep early with that because it
allows you to move on more quickly later, right?
If my year 4 class could not tell me what a rhombus was, I'm
going to be very honest right now, I didn't give a shit.
I did not care. But in the end of year
assessment, it's probably going to say plot these coordinates
and then underneath it will say, what shape is it?
And it was a rhombus. I don't care.
Like that can be a gap that and some people will really push
back and say no no by year 4 they need to make sure they got
it. I'll I'll tell them what a
rhombus is. But you know what?
If they don't get it, do you know what I won't do?
Prioritise that over then being able to manipulate number
properly to flexibly partition. Being able a child being able to
flexibly partition 64 has way more of ramification than
knowing what a rhombus looks like.
And the point being, let's say later on, 64 / 4, OK, that is
something that, yeah, you can do short division.
But you know what, really, I want children to be doing that
mentally. I want us to be doing 64 / 4
mentally. You have to have such good
understanding of how to break up a number.
You can break up 64 into 40 and 24 and a number four times
table. I understand this really well.
That's 10 fours and that's six fours.
So if I combine them, that's 16 fours.
I've just done it mentally that charge just done that question
mentally in their head, way more of an impact on their
mathematical ability, way more understanding of number and a
better, more rounded mathematician.
I'll spend more time on that than than just showing them
another rhombus. Oh, do you not remember what I
said about rhombus? It's just, it's just equal sides
with not without 90. OK, OK, cool.
It's, it's exactly what you just said there.
It's it's prioritisation and I can show them again when they
are 11, what a rhombus is and they might just go, oh, OK, and
then just remember it now because it's just a fact to
remember the curriculum and what we need to teach children.
Everything's on such different levels and understanding that
journey I think let's you prioritise about you know what
this is way worth for way more of my time.
You, you, you. You're absolutely right.
There are just some things that fundamentally are more important
to revisit on a yearly basis from an early, early point
conceptually and some things that are just not as important.
And that's OK to say like, and, and I think a really good people
have school improvement plans and school improvement leaders,
people that come in external whatever.
I think really, really, really good schools are the ones that
genuinely take that into account.
They don't penalise their teachers for thinking in that
way versus maximising their interview data like the better
schools do it that way around. Can I let's finish off on this
because I want to go back to our school, which I think were very
understanding of this whole thing because we had that same
outlook. We also used a lot of White Rose
in terms of their long term and medium term plans and, and
especially post COVID, a lot of stuff was prioritised and the
stuff was shifted around and moved and it didn't always
exactly match the national curriculum.
And we also use pixel tests, right?
And there was clearly there was a difference between what we
were telling teachers to prioritise and do in the lessons
and what was assessed always at the end of the year in terms of
pixel test. The example being negative
numbers, right? Negative numbers.
We left till Year 5 in our school.
You look at the curriculum, absolutely it's a year four
thing, right? Look at maths to the thing we're
building out. You can do it in year 4 because
it's, it's a year 4 level question.
We chose to say, do you know what, let's just take that out.
We'll we think children when they're in Year 5 can do the
year 4 level stuff and year five level stuff together and get it
in the same amount of time. That's a decision we've made
because then we're going to free up more time to go with the
foundations, especially post COVID to try and fill those
gaps. When we did a pixel test end of
year 4, it always without fail would have a question on
negative numbers. Yeah.
Oh no, they're not. They're not there.
Oh, they didn't. It's a gap.
Everyone understood. We know that will be a gap.
We looked at pixel hilarious. Percent, percent, percent,
percent high, high. Really, really good.
That question always dropped off.
Yeah, but instead of panicking going the end of you and the end
of year test. So we need to do that.
It's awful. Everyone understood.
We know why. We know why because we've made
the decision to focus on something else.
By the end of key stage 2, they'll get the same coverage,
they'll be able to do negative numbers.
That's not an issue, it's that level of understanding and
nuance which I think allows for better maths teaching, which
unfortunately some schools with a surface level understanding of
what's going on with leadership who just look at beta and just
go Oh my God, that's a problem. They're chasing their tail a bit
and they don't get the best maths teaching.
Yes, Dylan, I agree. And yeah, we, as always, went
off on a bit, not on a tangent, but we just went into depth
there, probably because it was about maths in the end, wasn't
it? What surprise we make it about
that you. Often say I agree, I agree.
Yeah, there we go. Right, there's a reason we work
together. Exactly.
Next question, What draconian behaviour policies have you
heard and observed that just humiliated children or just made
no sense? For me, immediately comes to my
head is whenever children are late, and I mean more primary
school children are late. Anything that punishes the child
because of that Aristocraconian or, or there's some negative
effect on the kid when it's by the way their parents who are
getting them into school, I think is just outrageous.
And they always rubbed me up the wrong way.
Do you know what I felt myself sometimes in lessons when a
child was consistently late right in in lessons, I remember
getting really frustrated because I thought to myself,
you're missing the 1st 20 minutes of mass every day.
And this is where we do our foundational stuff and our
fluency, etcetera. And that was annoying to me.
And I had to really let myself inside be annoyed and then be
like, but this child was brought in by the mother who overslept
and it's not his fault. Yeah.
So for me, anything that punishes the child for being
late when the child's not in control of being late, Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah. What?
What this family managed to do it and get their child in?
Why didn't you get your family to get you in on time?
Oh. Because my mum overdosed this
morning. Yeah.
No, I'm not even. I'm not even.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, It's like, OK, we'll
penalise the kid for that way. Exactly.
It's humiliating. Yeah, I'm obviously going to
over the top exaggerating, but. No, no, a bit.
It's obviously something that. Can happen.
Oh sorry, it's not the kids fault because they are 7.
Yeah, and and they don't get themselves to school like, oh,
but what about those kids who kick off and don't go into
school? I'm not talking about them.
That's a separate conversation. Do you know what they kick off
going into school? I can imagine a draconian policy
that when they do eventually get into school, they're told
they're told off and shouted at. Probably might make them want to
come in. I can't imagine that there's
anything, actually. Right.
So like. We've been, I've taught you 6 a
long time. I've obviously I've had some
kids who they cycle into school and their parents think they're
cycling into school. They actually went to the shops
and spent a bunch of time there, bought a bunch of bought a bunch
of sweets and stuff. And like, so obviously with
those kids you can, you can have, I didn't even tell them
off. Like I just have a conversation.
I come in late and I blatantly be doing this because one of
them will the other one in and I say, come on, guys, you got, you
know, you could cycle into schools.
You could. Tell them off though.
Yeah, but. Even then, I'm just saying to
them, look, I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to say
this to your parent because at the end of the day, they think
you're going to school and it's not safe.
Like none of us know who you are, you know?
But even still, I'm not doing some draconian like yelling at
them that you've got to go and you're going to lose your break
time now, because ultimately I want to talk to the parent and
say this is something in your control.
I am not the person in control of cycling your child to school.
You're the decision maker when it comes to that.
I'm informing you as a parent to make that decision.
Ultimately they were late. So can you do something about?
It yeah, completely. And, and just to justify what
we're saying here, like if, if there were some more draconian
issues and stuff, etcetera, we might disagree with being
draconian, right? But it is down to the child.
So it's more fair. Like I, I, I am genuinely
thinking of things that are literally not the fault of the
child. Another thing that I think of
all the time is when, you know, children aren't reading at home
or getting signatures, right? Getting signatures often
sometimes is different to reading at home.
Because I, I've known some children who definitely are
reading at home because I know they come in and they show what
they're up to and that they are reading at home, but they're not
getting their three signatures a week.
Yeah, because parents just don't do it, right.
For whatever reason, parents aren't doing it comes around at
the end of the week. There's a whole school policy.
You need 3 signatures a week. I'll just stand at break time to
do some reading. No, I and I have my whole career
point blank refused to ever keep a child in at lunchtime or break
time during their play times as a punitive measure for not doing
homework. Because again, to me it's not
the kids fault a lot of the time, is it?
Sometimes. Yeah, sure.
I, I still don't think it's worth keeping them in Cos I
think playtime is sacrosanct. I think that's part of their
day. To me, that's like saying you
you're going to miss some of your maths lesson to catch up
with your reading. No one would ever do that.
Play to me is just as vital. But yeah, any, anything that
punishes the children like that. And, and we're coming from a
primary perspective and secondary always say what about
secondary when it's more in their control.
Well, OK, you've completely changed the the example.
So of course, yes, that might mean I have a different answer.
We're talking about primary school here, you know, anything
like that. I just always thought to myself,
what are we doing? I just thought of a really funny
1A funny example of happened to me.
I've got two things and then I'm going to also dam myself after.
That was something I did in my AM QT year which which I look.
Back how you're learning. It's fine.
Yeah, I know. But I look back and I think,
what the hell was I thinking? Anybody did it in my mind?
That's the funny, the funny story, right?
And I just reminded me when I was thinking of children that
cycle in and came in late, go to shops.
I once had a boy, it was years and years ago who came in late
to my classroom. He was like 20 minutes late and
he's not normally that late, but it happened every now and then.
And he came in. I was like, what you doing at
this, Like. And he was, he was like such a
lovable child. It was so hard to be crossing.
This kid came with this little smirk of like, oh, yeah, I'm
late again. And he did.
He did have a rough family life. So again, I was immediately
thinking this, there's a lot of stuff out of my control here.
I'm not just going to be shouting at this child for being
late because I know what his family's like.
He came in and he's like, oh, yeah, I just, I just popped to
the shops, didn't I? I had to get some lunch.
And I was thinking, oh boy, let's get his lunch.
And he was like, and I got you, I did get you this.
And he pulled out a little like a lint chocolate bar out of his
pocket. And he was.
And I was like you trying to bribe me to this for being late
by giving me chocolate. It's not going to happen.
Give it. Turns out it's worked perfectly
well. Perfectly.
Well, I'll see you again tomorrow, same time.
But it just really made me laugh.
Like he was just, yeah, so funny.
So you take the register, I'll get you a limp Bunny, yeah.
Like you had to be get bigger every time limp bar was not
enough that next time 2 limp bars were funny.
Have you got one that's actually funny though?
Oh, cheers mate. Yeah, that's funny, isn't it?
You're funny. But here's here's one that's
damning, right? And something I look bamming and
I'm like what am I doing in my inky 2 year trying to please the
powers that be. You had hair then I did.
Very important. Maybe that's the maybe that that
was the turning. .0 My God, I think you might be right.
You shaved your head. You gained your confidence.
The opposite. That guy loses your power.
You gain power. I did.
Turns out that context was everything.
We having hair. But I did have hair.
Yeah, but good to know the only year I did.
Lost it after one year of teaching.
You lost. I think you lost it.
Already coming over, it was going yeah, the the.
Little, little Benny Young. Anyway, right, so I was trying
to please the powers that be who was saying, look, we're getting
a lot of kids that are going to the toilet in lesson time and
some of them are clearly just taking the Mick and they're just
getting out of lessons, blah, blah, blah, all this.
And I was like, OK, cool, cool, cool.
I know what I can I'm going to put something in place.
You might remember this. And I, I was like, OK, we had to
stick. We had, we had stickers at this
school. You have to.
You have to piss. Yourself in your chair.
Not that bad, I mean. Basically, basically is what I
felt like people were being like.
What you're doing is encouraging this anyone that needed the
toilet in the lesson, I was like, OK, you have to come and
get a sticker and you've got a sticker in your book that said,
I went out out. I went to the toilet in my
lesson to to show that you like left the lesson.
So when it comes to marking a book, looks why did that kid,
why did that kid not do as much? I was like, well, there you go.
They went to the toilet in the lesson and then someone came to
me. The the the deputy head came to
me and obviously explained why that was absolutely mental.
But you did that off your own back.
Yes, because I was like, were you stickers?
And they're trying to say that kids are wasting time.
We've got we've got to stop it. We've got to try encourage kids
to go to the toilet at the right times and stop them going in
lessons. Are you Chairman Mao?
From the from, from the top down.
And I was like, OK, I'll put something in place that makes
them aware that I know that they're just taking the mix
sometimes before. They're all taking the mix.
I know, I know, obviously the floor.
I understand the flaws immediately afterwards, but at
the time I was like, oh that's a good idea.
You know all these stories of you from your ECT and and QT
where you're like and I did this thing and they were really mad
at me. I started to think maybe they
should. Be yeah, I know, yeah,
genuinely. But the deputy head came by that
like the next day, saw the sticker in the book and he was
like mate, and explained of the obvious reasons as to why that
was dumb and you can't do that. And it's like discriminatory.
Like the kids do just also need to go to the toilet sometimes
and making them feel embarrassed because I got to now put a
sticker in that book saying they went to the toilet.
It's probably not a good play. And I was like, Oh yeah, yeah,
yeah, that's probably right, actually.
Yeah, we don't. We don't want people to feel
bad. By the way, we've got your
second observation in two days today.
Yeah, I know. That's the thing, the school we
worked at was extremely toxic from the top down.
This was me trying to appease them to be like I didn't.
I didn't. Hilariously, I didn't care.
Don't shift the blame. No, I'm shifting the blame
because I didn't care about kids going to the toilet, but they
did. So I was like, well this will
stop it. Kids.
The thing is, kids have got to excrete their bodily waste and
it doesn't mean they can't do the join the dots exercise.
We. Love them so on my bloody watch.
They're not. As if that school needed any
more stickers as well. Jesus Christ.
Honest to God. So, yeah.
Anything that blames children for things out of their control.
Yeah, but it's what we've always done.
Change it. Yeah, change it, then.
That's not a reason to do stuff, is it?
Exactly. That.
We've got to. We've got to tackle it somehow.
Not like that. There you go.
It's not good enough. Right?
Not good enough. Next question.
Go on. This is a good one, hearts back
to an episode from a few episodes ago where we talk about
maths and setting and all this stuff.
Go back and check it out if you haven't.
I work in A1 formentary school and I do agree that setting
would be good for the children. How can it be done in my
particular? Setting.
I had a couple people mentioned this when we did the the whole
one about the research and the setting and stuff.
Yeah. And someone commented on Spotify
as well about, you know, I love listening to the podcast, but
this was frustrating for me because it's very much centred
around sorry you just got your belly out.
Sorry I was really made me laugh.
That's interesting. But if you're.
Watching the camera did not flick to me at that point, I'll
tell you that. Oh, I've lost my train of
thought right now. Was basically saying, you know,
it's frustrating because it was all centred on our experience
of, you know, having multiple form entry schools where where
setting where setting makes more sense and it's easier.
I think we did. I think we did mention that when
we, but maybe we didn't but. I'm pretty sure we said there's
obviously a bias towards schools that have more.
Of course you can't really set in other schools.
This question is really interesting to me.
Like how can I set in A1 elementary school?
I mean really unless you've got another teacher to take out
children and do stuff like it's much much harder.
Like you are one teacher doing one input.
Unless you split the class in half and try and do 2 inputs.
Like to me, it turns into mixed ability where you try and set
within it, which we spoke about. I think the most you can do is
that like try and let your tops fly.
I don't, I don't think, I still don't think mixed ability is
automatically bad. I think it's much harder and
there's, and you have to be more realistic about what you can do.
And you as a person can only pitch your, your input at one
level. And lots of people said like,
can't you just teach to all the levels?
Like, oh, great, brilliant. I'll have 10 brains and two
mouths. Like what?
What? Like of course, of course, like
when I do an input, I'm doing an input to everyone.
So that input has to be pitched somewhere.
Exactly. It's going to be too low for
some kids and too high for others.
Like cool, by definition do I got no.
It's actually just about the sequencing.
OK, Well, some children don't need that level of sequencing.
Someone is busy now. I'm pitching it somewhere.
Yeah. Start low and build up OK whilst
I'm starting low, what the what the children can already do it
doing? Yeah, exactly.
A rising tide helps all boats. OK.
If I'm pitching it too high and the kids can't even add 4, they
obviously don't understand what I'm saying right now.
Like it's so. So my point is down to this like
setting. I don't, I actually, I, I know
it's a question and answer episode.
I don't really have an answer as how you can do setting in that
kind of situation. But I think what you can do is a
hybrid approach where, you know, mixed children up based on
ability. Sure.
Have a have a focus table, sure. That, you know, are going to
have to be doing something else. Maybe if you've got a teaching
assistant, you know, rotate with your teaching assistant as to
which children you're helping each day.
So throughout the week you get to help everyone at different
levels. Yeah, there's only so much you
could do basically. And there's lots of research out
there about how to do mixed ability effectively, how to get
the most out of it, and I would just be following those.
Exactly, we literally addressed this in the last episode.
Good teachers can make either work extremely well.
So if you're in the situation where you don't have that
choice, it sucks. Obviously.
OK, you can't really do setting because setting is predicated on
the fact that you have multiple teachers in multiple classes.
Like that is the very essence of setting.
So if you don't have it, then yeah, you just have to you'll
you'll just have to focus on, well, mixed stability.
Like you said, there's lots of ways you can make mixed
stability work. This is another good reason why
the argument can never be 1 is completely superior to the other
because what we're if we're if we were really saying, which we
weren't setting is just superior to mixed stability, then what we
are also saying is everyone who's in is forced into
situations where they can only do mixed stability, IE everyone
for mentary school, whatever. Then we're we're like, I'm not
saying obviously on there all those kids are getting a worse
deal. That's just not true.
But but you know, if the if if there were three times the
amount of children in the in the in the school and two more
teachers, I do think setting could be more beneficial for
them. Like that can still exist, but
you can still be giving the children the best you can
possibly get. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what I mean. Like you can still give them the
best you possibly get. So, yeah, sorry we can't give
more advice there. But like I do just think it it
you are your hands are tied in some.
Situations there is their own. Sometimes it's opposite way.
There is a thing you can not do. There are things you can not do.
Like if you if you're in that situation.
What you could not do is just have a give the six lowest
ability children to your TA every single day.
That's like a classic thing not to do.
Like Dylan said, just go and look into what makes good mixed
ability classmates work. Yeah, yeah, definitely,
definitely. And it's not easy.
It's certainly not very tricky easy at all.
I did. It just really quick.
I did it for one year. I had one form entry, yeah, I
regain it that yeah, I lost it again next year.
And I was in a very fortunate position where even though it's
one from entry, we had AI had a part time teacher who came in.
So for a couple of days in the week, I was able to actually
split my cast and set. So I was mixed ability for half
the week and then I and then I did some setting for some of the
other week. And, you know, again, I just,
you just have to make it work. It was circumstantial like, and
when the other teacher was in, was it, what did I teach better?
Honestly? Yeah, yeah.
Fewer children. Fewer children I could target
more specifically. And then I just used it.
So it was like I always knew in the mixed ability parts I'd be
doing certain things I knew I'm going to have that day where I
only have these children. I'm going to focus in on this a
bit more. You know, you just got to, you
get what you get. You can do 100% right.
Last question, we have been told that during SAT week, after
tests are administered in the morning, we have to spend the
whole afternoon revising for the next day.
What are your thoughts? Because I think it's ridiculous.
Now if people listen to this, that's already done.
So this, this was written into US obviously before that.
But what are your thoughts? Like, you know, because a bit of
revision, any harm in that? Like is this automatically bad
or? Look, I don't think it's
ridiculous. I don't think it's ridiculous to
do it. I don't think it's best practise
though either, but I think even just thinking about my own
practise in our own school, we generally on those Saturdays,
like I said, it's a high pressure morning, It's very
intense. I don't think you're going to
get the best out of the children by adding on that intensity for
the remainder of the school day ready for them to come in the
next morning doing it. I think it's nice even from a
hosted point of view, right, in terms of like how the Sats come
across and your own stress as a teacher coming out to the
children. I think it's just good to say,
well done, you've done your bit this morning.
This afternoon we're going to go back on normal timetable or
even, I don't know, a treat. We're going to do an extra PE
lesson this week, guys. We're going to go out to the
field and do something because you've had a very intense
morning and this week is intense.
Do I think it's the end of the world when someone for this one
week in the year does a couple of extra revision lessons in the
afternoon? Not really.
Like it's OK. It might be a bit annoying, a
bit stressful for the kids, they might be a bit tired.
You've got to think about those things.
It could have a negative impact. Exactly.
And I think to me it's more it said here, they've been told
that's when the whole afternoon revising, it's like, I don't
know. I think what I'd like to see
across the board is more trusted professionals like what you're
saying. Like, you know, what if the Year
6 teacher who knows their class has made a decision in the
afternoon to be like, do you know what they need half an hour
outside? Do you know what they need to
just chill out for a minute? Do you know what they need?
A bit of input on something that's a bit of PSAGI, don't
know. Whatever.
My class need this because of that because I'm a professional.
I know them really well. That's why we're doing it just
for a break. Do you know what I mean?
Like I think it's the top down. Like OK, OK, what's next?
What's tomorrow? Reasoning paper three.
OK, make sure everything all you're doing all afternoon are
why problems, Why problems? 2 marks, free marks.
Do you get like, and the context of what happened before is
important as well. Yeah, what I would say is I
think it's ridiculous. You you can see a reason why you
would do both. I understand that we.
Disagree. Maybe maybe because I I just
think I don't know, there's only so much you can cram.
And most, most people do a bit in the morning before the test
anyway. Like, yeah, yeah.
If you can't do something at this point, like, oh, it's OK.
What we're telling the kids do you know what I mean is still in
the SAT's week itself where like we need to cram those gaps you
can't do. It's like I have, I have been
trying for three months. Like what we send the kids like
you must get everything possible.
Let's just relax the children a bit so they understand.
You know what? We're going into this test.
We could have spent another. You have 30 minutes cramming
stuff you're not sure on, but it's OK to not be sure on some
stuff. Yeah, it's impossible for you to
do this test and not be unsure on some stuff and that's OK.
Just do your best. We can't cram, cram, cram, do
all last name revising, do a bit of revising beforehand and then
just before the SAT start. Just try your best guys.
That's what I mean about this. Is it one that's like, yeah,
that's what I'm saying. That's stress you're imparting
down. I mean, you have to into
consideration, I'm sure. But the reason, you know, the
reason I think it can be done OK is because I reckon some schools
do it nicely. I reckon they can manage to
maintain a pretty stress free, free environment.
But also just say to the kids, that's only happening this one
time. Obviously we're just going to
use this one opportunity just to just to bring things to the
forefront of your mind again, It's going to be pretty chill.
We're going to play like, you know, Kahoot quiz or something,
play games for the afternoon. But we're just going to revise
some key, key things. We're going to make sure we all
remember what perimeter means, all this sort of stuff.
You know, I, I think it can be done nicely is what I'm saying.
And it's not, and it's not ridiculous.
No, in that situation I still here.
I say after all this, my baseline is don't do it though,
genuinely. You agree with me?
No, I don't agree with you. You're actually agree with.
Me. Yeah.
Cool. OK.
That's interesting. Right, guys?
Thank you so much for your questions.
We're going to wrap it up there. Please leave us a review.
Please do share it with someone. You might find it useful.
I've got demos coming through people booking onto maps because
they listen to the sponsor section.
If they didn't, they get it again.
And that's really interesting because this is actually pre
recorded and. You're ruining.
You're sorry. You're ruining the illusions,
the law. Guys, see you next time.