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Hello everyone, welcome back to 
another episode of TC repeat. 

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My name is Dylan and my name is 
Hayden, and this week we're 

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going to be diving into some 
more research that appeared 

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ruffle a few feathers. 
We're going to be talking about 

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what seems to be going against 
10 years, 20 years, 30 years of 

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advice around setting in maths, 
mixed ability sets, streaming 

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and setting by attainment. 
We're going to be talking about 

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it all because for most of my 
career, and I think you can 

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attest this, Hayden, we were 
told that it's pretty much 

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settled, we should be doing 
mixed ability teaching when it 

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comes to maths. 
I feel like many teachers think 

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that even if there are some pros
to that, the actual doing of it 

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every single day, the 
practicalities around it can be 

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quite tricky for a number of 
reasons we'll get into. 

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But there was a recent study 
that was released. 

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Do you want to fill us in Hayden
on what was said? 

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Yeah, absolutely. 
And before I do that, I'm going 

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to preface this episode because 
I can imagine a little offender 

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me a fendometer on on the on the
bottom of this, because you've 

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already said mixed ability 
instead of mixed attainment 

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twice then. 
And I think people might be 

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might be seriously questioning 
whether they can listen to this 

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episode now. 
OK, all right, that's OK. 

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So if anyone has a massive 
problem with the word ability, 

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please get over it for this 
entire discussion. 

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And and do you know what that 
that that maybe that's 

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provocative as well. 
My point here is that very 

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clearly everyone knows what 
we're talking about when we say 

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ability. 
Mixed ability is a very common 

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way of describing a group that 
has mixed ability in it. 

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In terms of the lesson we're 
talking about, we're not talking

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about the child as a whole. 
We're not saying inherently 

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they're less or more able of 
absolutely everything ever. 

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But the fact of the matter is 
that there are children who are 

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more and less able when it comes
to maths and when people go, 

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well, someone said, oh, you 
can't, Ability is is stuck. 

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You can't become more or less 
able at something. 

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Yes you can. 
Yeah, of course you can, unless 

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you choose to define it the way 
that you're choosing and. 

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Then. 
So then it's just inherent, is 

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it? 
And then we really are talking 

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about eugenics that you can't 
meet. 

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Of course you can move your 
ability in something. 

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You can increase your ability to
do something. 

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Yeah, my ability to run has 
increased when I trained to do 

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some more running. 
And mine, mine has decreased 

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significantly continuously since
I was seven. 

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Yeah, it's not offensive when 
you just know. 

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Exactly. 
No, actually it's your 

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attainment. 
We should be measuring your okay

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running attainment. 
Whatever you whatever you think 

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the right word is. 
Imagine I'm saying that. 

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That's what I mean. 
I mean that I'm talking. 

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Yeah, I don't. 
I don't inherently think 

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horrible things about children 
or think terrible. 

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I don't. 
A fendometer. 

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Not what we're saying, anyway. 
Yeah, this new study. 

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Go on, Hayden, Tell us about it.
Cool. 

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So this the study came out. 
Dylan's also not reel on this, 

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so check it out on our Instagram
as well. 

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And equally provocative. 
To teach the repeat podcast. 

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Thank you for that 
clarification. 

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The most important bit probably 
of pointing people towards our 

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Instagram. 
Anyway, it's think with that in 

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mind. 
You know what? 

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You've literally absorbed this 
more and you've done a whole 

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real life. 
You might as well summarise. 

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Stop. 
That's what I wanted you to say,

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right? 
Hayden? 

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Why don't you say it? 
I'm just lazy. 

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Well, essentially it came out. 
It's the EEF, EF Education 

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Endowment Fund. 
They fund a lot of research to 

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do education and a lot of the 
things that you would have heard

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third of your career in in 
education has probably come from

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from this as well. 
And they've said, oh, it's 

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backed by this. 
It's it's proper, it's this, 

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it's that. 
And essentially what it said was

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it talked about how children and
OK, OK, lower attaining children

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very good aren't negatively 
impacted when it comes to 

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setting. 
However, those with higher 

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attaining outcomes can flourish 
and make more progress in a 

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setting environment. 
For the sake of just in case you

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have listeners who are not 
necessarily up to scratch with 

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the jargon of of teaching, can 
you just very quickly explain 

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what setting actually is 
complete that work? 

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Yeah, so all we mean here is 
with mixed ability, mixed 

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attainment. 
Sorry. 

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What you have is you have a 
classroom that's just simply 

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based on when children were 
born. 

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Yeah. 
OK. 

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So from September one year to 
August the next, all of those 

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children are in a class of 
maths, and you just teach all of

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them. 
And it doesn't matter what their

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attainment is in maths. 
It doesn't matter how much they 

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understand, it doesn't matter 
where they are, they should all 

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be taught the same lesson. 
That would be mixed and it would

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be down to what you teach them, 
what we'll talk about this in 

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the future about differentiation
and the things you give them and

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the support you give them and 
the help that together is the 

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point. 
They're all together and they 

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will have varying ability. 
OK Then with setting, what 

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happens is you in some way 
figure out what their attainment

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is in maths and then group them 
according to that and it can 

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look, it can look very, very 
different. 

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It can look vastly different. 
You might just have some setting

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where the children need the most
support or in a smaller group 

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and the rest are mixed. 
You might have just some setting

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where the children who are 
gifted and talented are just 

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together and they push each 
other on and they and they're in

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a group and everyone else is 
mixed. 

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You might have setting which is 
straight up, you almost list 

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them in order based on an 
attainment scale that you have, 

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based on whatever you want to do
to find the information out. 

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And then you just cut them up 
into quarters and there's four 

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classes. 
Yeah, whatever it can be. 

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Setting it takes into account 
the attainment and the ability 

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of the child in that in that 
lesson. 

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Which is where we get the term 
sets. 

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You know, when we say, oh, 
you're in set one. 

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When I was at secondary school, 
it was set one, set two, set 3. 

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Because you have, you have the 
highest set, the lower set. 

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And you have all these words 
that offend people as well. 

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Yeah. 
And we probably use throughout 

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this, you know, in terms of like
higher ability, higher children,

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most able, more able. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 

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yeah. 
Please, please, please 

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understand. 
Please give us, please give us 

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the respect of understanding 
that you know what we're talking

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about. 
Please just think for more than 

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10 seconds. 
Other than what I don't like 

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what said, all of these people 
must be awful. 

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We're not awful people. 
Just think about what we're 

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saying, please. 
For more than 5 seconds anyway. 

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The findings were in general 
were pupils in mixed attainment 

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classes are about made about one
month less progress in maths on 

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average than pupils in sets. 
So that's straight across the 

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board. 
In average pupils make less 

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progress in mixed attainment 
classes. 

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High prior retainers made about 
two months less progress in 

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mixed attainment classes. 
So it it gives those children 

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who are more capable with maths 
make far less progress when 

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they're in mixed ability. 
And that makes sense, right? 

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That's just something teachers 
have said for years that has 

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always been batted off that 
they're held back. 

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Yeah, they are held back. 
They have to be because it's 

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just a practicality of teaching 
a mixed ability class. 

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Yeah, surely. 
Surely low prior retainers and 

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pupils from disadvantaged 
backgrounds made similar 

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progress in either model setting
did not significantly harm them,

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right? 
This, this is the key here 

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because again, I've had some 
people push back and say, well 

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this doesn't say it's better for
lower retainers. 

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No it doesn't, it's the same, 
it's the same. 

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So if we have the option of it 
staying the same but it's better

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for a different group then 
that's obviously maybe 

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potentially something that's 
useful for the whole class as a 

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whole. 
This. 

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This was the kicker for me. 
self-confidence in maths was 

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slightly worse in mixed 
attainment schools than in 

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setting schools. 
It's a small effect overall but 

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I can't tell you how much of my 
career people have told me that 

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if you set it ruins the 
confidence of children. 

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This study has found the 
opposite, that when children are

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in mixed ability classes, what a
shock they see other children 

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who can do things they can't and
become less confident. 

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So that that for me was another 
just a bit of vindication. 

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I think for all those teachers 
out there have been saying it 

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for years that this is not the 
case. 

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So the EEF had these basic 
recommendations, which I think 

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were a really good place to 
land. 

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And it said if you set and if 
you teach mixed attainment. 

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So it wasn't saying you should 
definitely do one if you want to

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make that clear to people. 
Now, the point of this is that 

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both can work. 
And those people who spent the 

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whole Caribbean on their high 
horse saying that setting is 

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disgusting. 
We even had a quote later on 

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that we'll talk about it being 
it's violence against. 

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It's clearly none of that is a 
case of both. 

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If you set, do not concentrate 
specialist teachers into the top

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sets and let pupils move between
those sets and have fluidity. 

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If you teach mixed attainment, 
you have to actively stretch 

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those high attainers because 
that's where the gap is open. 

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Yeah. 
So again, just one extra line 

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that backs this as well. 
Something they found was that 

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the lesson observations showed 
that mixed attainment classes 

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were teaching content closer to 
what the quote bottom sets get. 

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You know what I mean? 
The lower attaining sets get 

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than what the high attaining 
sets get. 

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So it completely backs up 
everything you said before that 

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all like the all the teachers 
that have been saying this for 

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years. 
I've been saying this for years 

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of like, oh, if you've, if I've 
got the entire range of of 

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attainment in this class, it's, 
it's really hard for me to do 

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what I would have done if I only
had the top 25% of attainers. 

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Or only the only the bottom 
right. 

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OK, actually, I think you'll 
find, Hayden, that a rising tide

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raises all boats. 
Yeah. 

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OK. 
I think you'll find that 

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actually if we just have really 
high standards, which clearly 

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you don't if you want to set. 
All right, you're just putting a

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ceiling on those children. 
OK. 

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So I think actually you'll find 
that a rising tide raise all 

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boats. 
Love analogies that just sound 

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kind of cool. 
I don't really mean anything. 

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I love them. 
I love them. 

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Yeah. 
I'm inspired by that. 

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Yeah, actually true. 
I know I'm still in front of a 

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class right now where I'm really
struggling to make, but someone 

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mentioned the tide getting 
higher and bloody. 

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That is how bloody water. 
Works. 

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I I you know what, it must be 
the case. 

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How waterworks really does 
reflect how old children learn. 

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I want to, I really do just want
to just make the point here that

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what I am saying, my baseline is
not now this research says that 

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settings better. 
So we should all just what I'm 

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saying here is that those people
who are genuine. 

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I LED maths in school, I did 
maths specialist, these courses,

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I still thought setting had its 
place. 

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There were people out there who 
was edged on it, had on the side

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of snobbery who if they heard 
the word setting, blood jump, 

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not being trained in maths. 
I don't think you understand 

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maths mastery mate. 
We do it all at the same time. 

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Absolute utter nonsense. 
There is a place for setting, 

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there is a place for mixed 
ability. 

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Both have their pros, both have 
their places and both can be 

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really successful. 
And you know, we'll come, we'll 

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circle back round to this. 
But if you have issues with 

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maths in your school, it's 
probably because of other 

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things. 
It's not necessarily because of 

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the way you're setting or doing 
stability. 

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00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:23,680
Definitely. 
There are a lot of factors that 

232
00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:25,360
are. 
Implying that hopefully will be 

233
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,080
the theme that comes through 
this episode as we explore it 

234
00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:28,720
deeper and deeper and deeper and
look into the whys. 

235
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,280
So let's just, let's just dive a
little bit more into our own 

236
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:32,840
experiences because I think it's
important, right? 

237
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,520
Because I equally spent the 
entirety of my career and I 

238
00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,880
think other people did as well. 
Even if I think I could have 

239
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,480
been working in teacher for 20 
years and I could have spent the

240
00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,280
entirety of that time thinking 
mixed attainment is on this 

241
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,040
pedestal and is the best way of 
doing it. 

242
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,640
If you set well, you might just 
be a bit lazy. 

243
00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,360
Maybe you don't do the work. 
It's it is just worse for the 

244
00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,040
children, like as if there is no
overlap whatsoever. 

245
00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,760
And I think that's what that is 
like you said, that's what this 

246
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,400
new research challenges. 
I don't want to fall victim. 

247
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,800
I'm sure a lot of people will. 
And I definitely started to do 

248
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:09,840
it. 
And I first read the article of 

249
00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,880
like, ha ha, you were all wrong.
It's actually, it's actually 

250
00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,680
insert the complete opposite and
it's just not true. 

251
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,320
Like you said like and I would 
say it again, the EEF 

252
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,840
recommendations were if you set 
do this, if you do mixed ability

253
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:23,320
do this. 
The recommendations weren't 

254
00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,280
everybody now stopped doing 
mixed ability. 

255
00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,320
We were totally wrong for the 
last 25 years. 

256
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:29,720
Actually, we got it all 
completely wrong. 

257
00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,040
All the old research is now 
redundant and in void. 

258
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,000
This new one piece of research 
tells us how to do it this way. 

259
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,960
It's like, what are the chances 
that will change in 25 years? 

260
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,560
And. 
This is this is exactly what I'm

261
00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:39,960
leaning into. 
Those people have seen research 

262
00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,600
before and said, therefore 
always it's bad. 

263
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,400
It's like I'm saying the same 
thing. 

264
00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,960
Like clearly it's not. 
And clearly now I don't think 

265
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,840
those people who've been 
championing mixed stability for 

266
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,200
25 years will read this and be 
like, I'll drop that, then I'll 

267
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,240
move. 
No, no, because exactly that. 

268
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,200
Therefore their own 
preconceptions of what's right 

269
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:55,680
and wrong and they're going to 
go along with it. 

270
00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,120
And if you look at the history 
of the research, right, this, 

271
00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,240
we're not saying there wasn't 
research that said mixed ability

272
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,240
was great or better or that 
setting maybe had no impact or 

273
00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,440
maybe even low retainers were 
worse. 

274
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,440
We had this in the past, which 
is where this has come from. 

275
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,960
It's usually come from a good 
place of people seeing research 

276
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:12,200
and going, actually it does say 
this. 

277
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,960
So let's do that. 
I think we just have to really 

278
00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,800
just bake in here that the 
experience of hundreds of 

279
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,920
thousands of teachers doing it 
every single day is not 

280
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:23,880
automatically trumped by a 
research paper. 

281
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,040
A research paper can be really 
helpful. 

282
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,800
It can be really useful. 
You've got to look at the 

283
00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,240
methodologies, you've got to 
look at the outcomes. 

284
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:30,240
You've got to look at who's 
doing it. 

285
00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:31,440
You've got to look at why 
they're doing it. 

286
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,680
There's there's so many 
different things that that come 

287
00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:37,080
into effect when you're 
interpreting research that 

288
00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,320
clearly you cannot just look at 
the headline and be like, OK, 

289
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:40,320
I'm doing that now. 
Of course not. 

290
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,120
There is even like some like 
going to the NTH degree of this.

291
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:43,840
There's some really hard 
limitations which just make the 

292
00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,320
whole thing hilarious, like when
people just take the research, 

293
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:47,600
well, this is the only way to do
it now. 

294
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,200
Like the research typically 
understandably fails to 

295
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,200
understand, fails to include the
context of every human ever. 

296
00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:58,360
Like this research had some 
internal context. 

297
00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,600
It was, it was it was done in a 
secondary school year 7 to 8. 

298
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,480
There was a certain amount of 
pupils over a certain time 

299
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,160
period. 
There's always going to be 

300
00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,320
limitations and bias, right. 
So, yeah, when that when that 

301
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,840
one form entry primary school is
looking at this research that 

302
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,960
now that and and they're 
thinking it says, oh, we have to

303
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,120
set, but I can't. 
Yeah, of course you can't. 

304
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,920
Of course you can't. 
There's situations where you 

305
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,280
literally can't set, and there 
are probably situations where 

306
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,480
it's incredibly easier to have 
sets than it would be to do 

307
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,600
mixed ability just based on the 
context of your score. 

308
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,880
And I think you just have to 
have that in your mind all the 

309
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,080
time when interpreting this. 
Stuff and the outcomes of the 

310
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,800
children is not rooted only in 
what you choose to have these 

311
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,200
two things. 
There's so many other things 

312
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,720
that if you want to improve the 
outcomes of your maths teaching 

313
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,880
in school, it's not as simple as
just going latest research 

314
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,880
paper, mixed ability, latest 
research paper set the quality 

315
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:48,920
of teaching, who's where, who's 
doing what. 

316
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,160
There's just so much more to it,
you know, home involvement, 

317
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,120
etcetera. 
So I guess the point here is 

318
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,840
that, you know, throughout my 
career is definitely definitely 

319
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,200
been the entire time of my 
career. 

320
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,640
It's been, you know, it's been 
looked upon as mixed abilities, 

321
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,960
better mixed. 
Get everyone in the same 

322
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:04,480
classroom and you just 
differentiate. 

323
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,040
Yeah. 
And you just get, you know, give

324
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:07,800
them opportunities to stretch 
themselves or not. 

325
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,720
Clearly that's have a limiting 
factor with children who are 

326
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,960
high, high retainers. 
And it's nice to see that, you 

327
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,800
know, it's not automatically 
you're doing a disservice to 

328
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:16,520
your low retainers. 
Yeah. 

329
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,320
Because I've set for my whole 
career, OK. 

330
00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:20,600
And I, for the vast majority of 
my career have been with those 

331
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,480
low retaining sets, OK. 
And I have loved every second 

332
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,720
and I have not believed it when 
people have said to me, 

333
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,200
therefore confidence is worse in
those kids. 

334
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,520
I've the confidence if if 
anything, I'm not even just 

335
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,080
saying this because maths is my 
passion and because I agree you 

336
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:36,800
have to have strong maths 
teachers across the board. 

337
00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,760
If anything, with those lower 
attainers, I was with those 

338
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,280
lower attainers, I LED maths in 
the school. 

339
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,440
I love maths. 
I, I, I bred this whole series 

340
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,400
of just confidence and love for 
the subject. 

341
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,560
The kids were getting way more 
than if they were in a mixed 

342
00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:51,280
ability. 
Sure, and and it doesn't mean 

343
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,600
they couldn't have got it in a 
mixed ability, but what it does 

344
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,200
mean is that you can still get 
it from sets. 

345
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
So if someone came into your 

346
00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,960
classroom with that on that high
horse, right, and had said to 

347
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,280
you at that time, Oh no, no, no,
no, this isn't any good like 

348
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,840
setting is bad. 
Actually the the confidence of 

349
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,840
the children in this, in this 
class, you might not know it, 

350
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,440
Mr. Price, but the confidence of
the children in this class is 

351
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:11,960
actually being completely 
diminished. 

352
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,120
Yeah, exactly that that that's 
when I think that becomes this 

353
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,520
animosity towards the research. 
And that's when you brought up 

354
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,120
and you're just like, you know, 
you don't know anything. 

355
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:20,240
Yeah, you're right. 
And it comes from an 

356
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,600
understanding, a broad 
understanding. 

357
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,760
To be fair, from the same from 
the teachers have to understand 

358
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,240
that research is generic. 
It doesn't mean that every 

359
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,760
single time that what is said in
the research happens, it has to 

360
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:30,920
be that way. 
There's always going to be some 

361
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,560
anecdotal evidence either side. 
It's a generic trend, but 

362
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,640
clearly those trends are 
different based on who's looking

363
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,400
at what A. 100% and at the end 
of the day, I will just finish 

364
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,840
this whole talk about research 
by saying that this new research

365
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,440
has come out really like in 
essence, it has been done by the

366
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,080
same team who are who have 
originally researched and 

367
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,920
brought out all this other 
evidence to say that the 

368
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,400
complete opposite. 
You know that like, so you just 

369
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,880
have to take it with a pinch of 
salt and, and it's not even 

370
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,240
unfair to say that that's kind 
of the point of research. 

371
00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,240
We, we like, we do as humans, we
do learn new things and change 

372
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,040
and adapt over time. 
It's that doesn't mean 

373
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,200
inherently that research is now 
bad because it contradicted 

374
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,760
itself from 25 years ago. 
That kind of is the nature of 

375
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,760
things a lot of the time. 
And with that in mind, you just 

376
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:14,560
have to accept that maybe, maybe
if you are on that high horse of

377
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,720
this is the only way to do it. 
You might have been wrong that 

378
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,000
that was the only way of of 
doing it. 

379
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,720
And this research. 
And if you are, if you are so 

380
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,760
hard on the research backing up 
before, yeah. 

381
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,920
And now this new research by the
same people has come out saying 

382
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,600
something opposite. 
You kind of have to jump off 

383
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,240
your high horse and just accept,
OK, you know what? 

384
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,120
Maybe I'll do it that. 
Bit or stay in your high horse 

385
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,240
and just move to now the must do
setting. 

386
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:34,760
The opposite now. 
Stay in your high horse. 

387
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,360
Yeah, Yeah, at least you're 
consistent now, I suppose. 

388
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:37,440
That's that's true. 
That's true. 

389
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,240
And it's nothing to do with your
practise or experience in the 

390
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:40,520
classroom. 
It's only to do with the the 

391
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,120
paper that you read. 
I think what we should do is go 

392
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,640
into setting and having mixed 
ability classes and just look 

393
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,320
at, you know, the case for each 
one. 

394
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,160
So I think you should start with
setting because I think I don't 

395
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,160
know you and I both, you know, 
we both LED master in school. 

396
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,080
I know our opinions have always 
been setting is good, Yeah, it 

397
00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:59,600
can be done well, it can be done
bad. 

398
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,240
And we've never said that mixed 
stability is bad. 

399
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,640
No, never really clear, never. 
But we've always said it has 

400
00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,200
limitations. 
Yeah, and there's been 

401
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,840
limitations in our setting, but 
not automatically. 

402
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,520
Doesn't mean that we should 
therefore do mixed stability, 

403
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,480
because I think there's more. 
Limitation in the context of our

404
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,400
careers and the schools we have 
worked in, we have always, we 

405
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,560
have always come to the 
conclusion that some sort of 

406
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,360
setting has been a good 
conclusion. 

407
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:19,600
That's basically the way we can 
say it, isn't it? 

408
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,400
Yeah, right. 
OK, so we're gonna we're gonna 

409
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,360
go through a few here. 
I think this is really, really 

410
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,400
interesting. 
So in terms of just pedagogical 

411
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,160
precision, right? 
So you can tailor your pace, 

412
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,880
your depth, your language to a 
narrower band of prior 

413
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,680
attainment. 
So with the top set you can 

414
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,560
push, you know, really, really 
push that abstract level. 

415
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,720
If you think about a lot of 
training and mass concrete 

416
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,640
pictorial abstract to journey 
through. 

417
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,160
If you're, if you get children 
in the same room who are very 

418
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,360
much towards the end of that, 
you can push way more into that 

419
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,360
abstract than that deeper 
understanding because we've 

420
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,560
already made that journey. 
So if we can already take 

421
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,160
advantage of that, it means we 
can jump faster, we can assume 

422
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,280
more, we can get kids further. 
Here's a good example. 

423
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,400
I have been, I was saying 6 for 
a long time. 

424
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,720
And I have taught a variety of 
different attainment sets, some 

425
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,520
more mixed than others. 
Because again, by the nature of 

426
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,280
it, you've got to remember by 
the way, that even when you have

427
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,640
sets, you still have loads of 
children in a class. 

428
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,319
And there's obviously going to 
be a range still. 

429
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:09,680
So there's still some sort of 
mixing, right? 

430
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,359
And I've taught the same 
objectives at the same point of 

431
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,720
the year to different attainment
sets. 

432
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:20,319
And I felt like I've made the 
best progress I can in, in both 

433
00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:23,000
holistically confidence and 
actual attainment with each of 

434
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,920
those sets. 
And I've taught wildly 

435
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,640
differently in terms of my 
approach to the lesson that even

436
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,880
sometimes the, the, the layers 
of content, like you said, the 

437
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,960
depth that I go into. 
And I've come to the conclusion 

438
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,920
after that of thinking, if I had
to do both of those at the same 

439
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,640
time, neither of those groups 
would have got the, the depth 

440
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,720
and like precision that I gave 
them. 

441
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,000
And that simply it was the truth
of it. 

442
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,280
I just physically I can't be two
people and I can't talk to two 

443
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,280
groups of people at the same 
time without all overlapping 

444
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:50,640
sounding ridiculous Exactly. 
So I would have had to have 

445
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,200
compromised somewhere. 
So I think that's a very strong 

446
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,920
argument for setting is you are 
by definition, if you are the 

447
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,200
same teacher in this, someone 
might argue and say, but if 

448
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:00,760
you've got a weaker teacher, 
okay, you've added another 

449
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,960
variable. 
If I'm the teacher in all these 

450
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,000
examples, I will be able to 
deliver more depth and breadth 

451
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,320
if I have a much tighter focus 
with the with the curriculum. 

452
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,000
And there's still going to be a 
breadth there. 

453
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:12,840
We're not putting a ceiling on 
anyone. 

454
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,800
What we're doing is increasing 
the probability that the breadth

455
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,160
of knowledge and understanding 
is smaller. 

456
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,200
So I can target it more, but 
more more effectively. 

457
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,520
When I've had classes lower 
attaining classes before, there 

458
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,800
have been some children in that 
class who are probably in that, 

459
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,400
in that, in that, in that small 
step we're doing that day. 

460
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,400
Or maybe even that whole strand 
that we're doing can achieve 

461
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,320
better than some children in the
set which we say is higher set, 

462
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:36,600
right? 
It doesn't. 

463
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,680
So doesn't matter. 
It doesn't matter because my 

464
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,000
breadth is so much smaller. 
I'm not going to the highest, 

465
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,120
but the highest echelon of that 
set anymore. 

466
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,120
It just means it overlaps a bit.
It's still more narrow for me as

467
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,280
a teacher to focus on. 
When you're with those 

468
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,160
foundation sets, you can really 
slow down, you can give them 

469
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,600
exactly what they need. 
I could hit those gaps so much 

470
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,320
more perfectly because they were
in the same kind of area. 

471
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,320
And you're right doing both. 
It's just, it's just 

472
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,360
unrealistic, I think. 
And, and I think what was good 

473
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:06,520
about the research was that it 
just showed that there was a 

474
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,560
minimal effect on lower 
retainers and a bigger effect on

475
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,080
higher retainers if they managed
to go and set. 

476
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,920
That makes sense to me because 
realistically, if you have a 

477
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,680
mixed class and you are 
delivering a lesson to all 32 

478
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:22,000
children naturally, and I don't 
care, you can say all you want, 

479
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,160
all your metaphors about tides, 
riding boats, Naturally, if you 

480
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,520
don't want to alienate 1/3 of 
that class, you have to be 

481
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,800
giving that input at a lower 
level and therefore just hoping 

482
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,920
that the tops or the highs 
stretch themselves. 

483
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,280
You have to be doing that. 
Otherwise you're basically 

484
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,000
saying I'll leave you behind. 
Maybe that's where, you know, if

485
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,880
we think about mixed ability 
classes and if it's had a 

486
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,320
detriment, A detrimental impact 
on those lower retainers, maybe 

487
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,880
that's why because we're leaving
them behind, right? 

488
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,080
And it comes again into the 
quality of teaching. 

489
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,280
There is way much more to be 
said about the quality of 

490
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,320
teaching. 
But inherently if you mixed, I 

491
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:54,760
just think it's harder to do 
that. 

492
00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,120
And you can talk about 
stretching people, etcetera. 

493
00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,640
And making sure that you know, 
if you do set with lower 

494
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,320
attainers, how can you make sure
that they don't have a ceiling 

495
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:03,960
on them comes down to your 
quality of teaching. 

496
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,720
Definitely. 
I think a lot of this and I 

497
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,960
think some of the criticisms 
we'll get to when we, when we 

498
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,800
talk about the pros for mixed 
ability, a lot of this will link

499
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,440
back to I think some of the 
things we're saying right now. 

500
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,640
And I do think it links to like 
the quality of teaching that 

501
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,960
what, what you're able to do. 
And one other thing I'll say as 

502
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,520
well about the whole like mixed 
ability, having your highest 

503
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,080
attainers and your lowest 
attainers in one place. 

504
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,480
A lot of people will say the gap
is smaller in the classroom, and

505
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,720
I find that I've always found 
that really fascinating. 

506
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,200
What do you mean? 
The gap, they'll say, the gap 

507
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,240
between your highest attain and 
your lowest attain and the mixed

508
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,480
stability set is a is a smaller 
gap than it would be if you 

509
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,440
taught them in separate 
attainment sets. 

510
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,640
And therefore they say, and 
therefore that's a good. 

511
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,440
Thing as if the size of the gap 
is the thing that matters. 

512
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,760
And, and yeah, and they always 
fail to look at the only thing 

513
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,960
that actually matters, which is 
OK, but if we're comparing those

514
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,360
things, we just need to compare 
the higher attainers to where 

515
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:54,240
they would have been in the 
mixed stability set to where 

516
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,840
they are in the other set and 
the lower attainers to the in 

517
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,080
the mixed stability set and the 
non, because that's the thing 

518
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,200
that matters. 
And yeah, the gap might be 

519
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,760
bigger, but like, OK, you got a,
you got a. 

520
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,480
So imagine a a very small gap, 
but it's it's much lower down in

521
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,200
average attainment. 
Let's give it numbers quick. 

522
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,760
Let's go now. 
So let's just say arbitrary 

523
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:10,440
lines. 
Let's just say. 

524
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,960
So let's just say 3 out of 10 is
where your lower retainers are 

525
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,240
and they and then your higher 
retainers are at 7 out of 10. 

526
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:18,800
Yeah, OK. 
So you've got a gap of four. 

527
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,960
And in this other example, your 
lower retainers, they're still 

528
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,680
at 3 out of 10. 
So they've not got worse or 

529
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,000
better. 
It's ah, that's frustrating. 

530
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,480
It's no different. 
They're still at 3 out of 10, 

531
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:27,960
but your higher attainers are at
9 out of 10. 

532
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:29,600
Now there's a gap of. 
Six much bigger gap much. 

533
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,560
Worse, the gap has increased. 
And you look at the gap, you 

534
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,400
think, oh, the gaps increased, 
that's bad, but it's not, is it?

535
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,440
Yeah, it's not bad, right? 
And that's what you're saying? 

536
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,920
In that situation, it's not bad.
It would be bad if it was the 

537
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,520
other way around. 
If you had the gap of four, it 

538
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,920
was three and seven, and then 
the gap was one and seven, 

539
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:46,840
right? 
OK, cool. 

540
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,240
There's no benefit to anyone. 
In fact, there's only a decrease

541
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,440
that that's a bad gap. 
And I think the context of the 

542
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:52,960
gap is important, but no one 
ever does it. 

543
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,520
And everyone just says, well, 
we've reduced the gap, so that's

544
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,160
good. 
So it's not good if it's at the 

545
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,600
detriment of 1/3 of. 
Your class I've had, I mean, is 

546
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:00,920
this conversation? 
Yeah, I remember this 

547
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,800
conversation so much where we 
we, I vividly remember this is 

548
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,200
this literally happened, right? 
We looked at data of the gap 

549
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,760
between pupil premium and non 
pupil premium from the year 

550
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,760
before. 
And then we looked at the gap 

551
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,520
now and the gap had decreased. 
It got smaller, right? 

552
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,120
Everyone given themselves pat on
the backs. 

553
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:20,200
We've decreased this gap. 
Looking at the raw data, both 

554
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,440
were lower, both were lower. 
It was just that, it was just 

555
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,240
that the higher retaining that, 
sorry, the the one that was 

556
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,680
higher had dropped more, right? 
So the gap had become smaller 

557
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,640
and squeezed down or the gap 
smaller. 

558
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,360
Everyone's down though, 
everyone's lower. 

559
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:35,960
Yeah, but Pat on the back, Sir. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

560
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,880
We've got to close that pupil 
premium gap. 

561
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,440
And then if you looked at the 
like the tables we'd look at it 

562
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,000
would say pupil premium gap 
percentage and it would go 8%, 

563
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,200
four point 4%. 
That's good. 

564
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,960
What? 
Yeah, no, it's not Yeah, yeah. 

565
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:50,600
It's just, it's just so 
simplistic, we. 

566
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,160
Get so obsessed as teachers with
certain metrics. 

567
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,680
That gap, kind of a gap, Yeah. 
Well, do you know what do you 

568
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:56,680
know? 
Do you know what I'm going to 

569
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:57,960
say? 
It might be controversial. 

570
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,760
We can have a gap. 
Yeah. 

571
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:01,840
We obviously can have a gap. 
Yeah. 

572
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,240
What are you aiming for in life 
if you don't want a gap of 

573
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,760
anything ever? 
We'll never have any 

574
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,880
extremities. 
We'll never have any amazing 

575
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,280
people at different things. 
Oh, but I'm so jealous because 

576
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:11,960
the other people are just saying
the lower, the lower. 

577
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,080
I'm going to make sure everyone 
is the same. 

578
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,840
No, we don't get better at 
something else. 

579
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,040
We should be. 
We should be nurturing those 

580
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,880
higher, those children who are 
better at something, who have a 

581
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,880
passion about something, who 
want to improve. 

582
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,200
It doesn't mean we don't help 
other people improve. 

583
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,520
It just means that it's good to 
celebrate people who are 

584
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,360
exceptional at things. 
And we have this whole mindset 

585
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:34,640
of no, they can't make the gap 
higher. 

586
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,280
Yeah, we can. 
We can absolutely make the gap 

587
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,160
higher because the context of 
the gap matters. 

588
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,320
Does it mean every single 
instance of a widening gap is a 

589
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:43,960
good thing? 
Obviously not. 

590
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:46,440
But does it mean every single an
instance of a gap widening is a 

591
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,040
bad thing? 
Also dead brain behaviour? 

592
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:52,040
Of course, that's not true. 
Exactly your your example there 

593
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,520
was an example of a gap 
decreasing, but it was 

594
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,480
universally worse for everybody 
involved, right so. 

595
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,320
And then initially we had an 
example of a gap increasing. 

596
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,880
Yeah, that wasn't better for 
everyone, but it wasn't worse 

597
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,560
for anyone. 
No, like it was not worse. 

598
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,240
It was the same. 
And some people push back on the

599
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,640
reel and they were like, I don't
see any evidence here of why 

600
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,920
it's better for lower retainers.
No, there wasn't any. 

601
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,280
That's why it remained the same.
There was no impact. 

602
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,960
It was the same. 
Do we, are we that obsessed with

603
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,480
any kind of positive that has to
be positive for everyone always?

604
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,360
Yeah, Yeah. 
What obviously out of these two 

605
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:25,800
things? 
Oh, typical high achievers 

606
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,520
getting more. 
As always, once you're there, 

607
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,040
you're there, OK? 
All right, let's be real. 

608
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,440
Money makes money, baby. 
How much? 

609
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,120
How long did you spend in 
school? 

610
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:33,560
10 years. 11 years. 
Right. 

611
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,800
OK. 
Is it typical that the high 

612
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,440
retainers get everything? 
No, it's massively skewed. 

613
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,720
I'm not saying it shouldn't be. 
No children, children from lower

614
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,960
socio and economic backgrounds 
get people premium funding and 

615
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,800
extra money in place for it. 
All of the, all of the, all of 

616
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,320
the pressure and, and the move 
towards is to getting people 

617
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,160
past entertainment level from 
the bottom up. 

618
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,280
Everything that schools do is 
about that. 

619
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,680
Yeah, the 90%, the the children,
the children who are higher 

620
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,240
achievers are forgotten. 
Yeah, of course they are. 

621
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,360
They've got that's my .0, the 
tops getting more again. 

622
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:08,720
The tops never get anything. 
They never get anything and and 

623
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,000
they should get less. 
Don't. 

624
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,120
This is it. 
They should get less. 

625
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,000
They don't need as much support,
right? 

626
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,280
In terms of the I'm talking 
about a difference now between a

627
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,720
child who can't read and a child
who can. 

628
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:19,640
The children who can't read 
should get more than the 

629
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,960
children who can, whether they 
can read veraciously or or just 

630
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,640
about right. 
But why do we pretend that that 

631
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,040
individual child is not 
deserving of attention? 

632
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:29,600
I agree. 
Is not deserving of pushing. 

633
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,640
It's not deserving of getting 
the highest they can get. 

634
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,000
Because then oh, if they get the
highest they can get, the gap 

635
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,200
increases and the school looks 
bad. 

636
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,040
Get over it. 
Change your outlook because 

637
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,280
those kids deserve it as much as
anyone to get input and help. 

638
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,480
It's because, and I'll say this 
now, and I hope if you're 

639
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,640
listening to this, you will 
either reluctantly agree or 

640
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,000
agree passionately, it's because
we have been totally, totally 

641
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,360
brainwashed in education to 
believe this fact. 

642
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,640
Progress only matters when it 
crosses A threshold. 

643
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,880
That's it. 
You're already over the top 

644
00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,880
threshold, kid. 
Cool. 

645
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:01,480
Do not care about your progress 
anymore. 

646
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,560
It's 0 progress technically 
because you've gone from 

647
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,320
expected to expected, right? 
You, you could have made 15 

648
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,640
progress points individually of 
how you're doing, but it's, it's

649
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,040
still in the band of expected. 
So it means nothing to me. 

650
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,280
A different child could have 
made 2 progress points, 2 

651
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,960
percentage points, but they tip 
over that expected band. 

652
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:22,800
That is more useful in terms of 
a school's outlet and how it 

653
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,400
hooks and is perceived from the 
outside. 

654
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,760
That gives you a boost, a move, 
Absolutely. 

655
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,800
That two percentage point move 
is more beneficial to a school 

656
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,720
than a 15 percentage point move 
for someone else. 

657
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,000
And it is horrendous. 
I wonder how many school I'd be 

658
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,720
really interested to know this 
because I don't want to base it 

659
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,880
off my own experience because 
it's just too small of a pool of

660
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,600
information. 
I wonder how many schools are 

661
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,640
still doing things like gifted 
and talented groups. 

662
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,320
Remember when I started training
also when I was at school the 

663
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,880
whole term gifted and talented. 
And maybe it's got to refresh 

664
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,120
that term now and I'm just not 
whatever. 

665
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:53,680
But if that groups still exist, 
right? 

666
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,400
I wonder how many schools are 
still doing things while they 

667
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,400
actively go out of the way to 
say this child or these children

668
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,480
are like particularly talented 
in this subject and we're going 

669
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,280
to do something extra to like 
really try and like push it even

670
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,280
further. 
I remember you've done quite a 

671
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,360
few talented groups. 
Last year, because it was and it

672
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,760
always seemed to be Term 1 where
we know we're, we're finding out

673
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,200
where the children are, we're 
getting a bit more data, 

674
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:14,840
etcetera. 
Time 1, I do a gifted and 

675
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,760
talented group where children 
who just exceptional about 

676
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,360
maths, there was just six of 
them and me and we'd do some, 

677
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,960
we, we would do whatever we 
wanted, you know what I mean? 

678
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,480
Like I'd watch some #5 videos 
and get some ideas about 

679
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,400
investigations and I'd give 
these kids just some open-ended 

680
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,120
questions where we'd explore 
different things. 

681
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,440
We did so much, it was so fun 
and the kids got so much out of 

682
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:33,520
it. 
And it wasn't about testing at 

683
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:34,880
the start and the end wasn't 
about moving. 

684
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,840
It was just about saying your 
exception on maths, let's push 

685
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,560
you, let's do some unbelievable 
things. 

686
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,520
It's so fun. 
And then after time too, I was 

687
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,000
literally told I can't really 
measure this though, can't 

688
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:44,760
really measure this. 
So. 

689
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,480
So can you start doing some 
groups people with with children

690
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:48,760
who we've seen are on the cusp 
of expecting. 

691
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,440
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
And it was like, you know what, 

692
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,240
those kids do need input and 
help, right? 

693
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,080
Yeah. 
But it's always, always, always 

694
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:55,520
at the detriment of the other 
children. 

695
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,640
And I just, I just feel bad for 
them because I'm not being 

696
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,560
funny. 
I'm not being like boastful any.

697
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:00,920
I was that I was that kid at 
school. 

698
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,760
I was obsessed with maths. 
I loved it was my thing. 

699
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,040
That's what I loved doing and I 
always felt like I was given 

700
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,520
opportunities to push it, to 
push it and it felt good. 

701
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,040
And if there's any child out 
there who's getting this idea of

702
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,800
being squashed, oh, no, no, 
sorry, no, no, no, no. 

703
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,320
This me to me to put all our 
help over here. 

704
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:18,480
You just get you crack on, 
you're fine. 

705
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:19,520
Just do. 
Just do your worksheet. 

706
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,560
That's sad to me. 
It's sad. 

707
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,720
I, I just remembered you saying 
that sort of reminded me. 

708
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,400
I thought about this for years. 
You might have done the same 

709
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,680
because you only. 
So Dylan and I went to the same 

710
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,800
secondary school and Dylan was 
one year below me. 

711
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,040
So there's a good chance that 
things that were in place for me

712
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,120
are probably in place for you as
well. 

713
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:35,480
I don't know if you did this or 
not, but I think, I think I was 

714
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:36,880
in year 7. 
Maybe you're 8. 

715
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,400
And there was like a, they 
picked the top 10 mathematicians

716
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,200
of the year to go and do like 
some origami paper folding 

717
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,600
thing. 
And it was all like mathematical

718
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,080
folding. 
I don't know if your year group 

719
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,560
did. 
That no, what I did was they had

720
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,800
to pick one male and one female,
the best mathematicians, and we 

721
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,400
did a math Olympiad. 
That's why I did. 

722
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:55,560
Yeah. 
Oh, you're the top one. 

723
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:56,800
I was I. 
Was top ten. 

724
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,360
Yeah, yeah. 
I mean, me and Jodie, we went 

725
00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:59,320
off, we did it. 
Very nice. 

726
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,600
Yeah, but like wasn't. 
But you remember that I loved 

727
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,200
that because maths was also my 
favourite subject. 

728
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,960
And it is kind of sad to me the 
idea that I, there's a reality 

729
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,040
now. 
I could go through school and 

730
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,880
just none of that enrichment 
happened to me because I, 

731
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,240
because I am already greater 
depth. 

732
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,560
Okay, this kids going to get the
predicted grade that we want. 

733
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,280
Like let's just just leave them.
Let's focus on these again. 

734
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,160
It's I don't know what the 
solution is because obviously we

735
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:21,080
need to focus on those other 
kids. 

736
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,800
I'm not saying we don't now 
focus on the other kids. 

737
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,360
But that it's a symptom of of 
diminishing budgets as well. 

738
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,040
Yeah, less and less and less 
money. 

739
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,440
What's going to go first? 
Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

740
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,480
Our scope of focus gets smaller 
and smaller and smaller. 

741
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,880
At the end of the day, it's sort
of like, OK, if you've got to 

742
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,360
pick, am I going to pick the 
child who's confident and 

743
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,240
already does maths or am I going
to pick the child who I might be

744
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,680
able to make a difference for? 
And they can, they can 

745
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:41,840
understand the fundamentals now 
do. 

746
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:43,280
You know what? 
Do you know what probably do you

747
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:44,840
know what winds me up? 
This is the problem. 

748
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,680
We're kind of going off a bit 
tangent here, but it's good. 

749
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,880
This is what winds me up with 
the obsession with the line. 

750
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:51,920
You know, I talked about that. 
Two percentage point gets over 

751
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:53,320
the line, 15 percentage point 
doesn't. 

752
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,600
Sure. 
If we actually, if we actually 

753
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,080
do what you just said, which is 
to build the confidence of the 

754
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,680
children at the lowest level who
can't do it. 

755
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:00,800
Think about children who can't 
read. 

756
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,280
Yeah, think about children who 
can't do their number ones to 10

757
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,400
or can't aren't properly 
sabotizing or can't count 

758
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:05,920
properly. 
Right. 

759
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,920
Children who we deem 
realistically and though the 

760
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,520
schools will deem them as we can
put as much time as we want, but

761
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:11,520
they're not going to. 
Get passed. 

762
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,680
This is exactly what I'm saying 
now this is exactly what I mean 

763
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,400
where if we were actually 
thinking about the foundations 

764
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,240
and and thinking about where it 
should be going and like, oh, do

765
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:19,000
you know what? 
Fair enough. 

766
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,120
Kids who can't read should get 
more support, right? 

767
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,040
We're not talking about them. 
There's no child in the world 

768
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,040
who is just below expected level
of reading who could tip into 

769
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,160
expected level of reading who 
can't already read well and 

770
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,640
understand the text. 
They're already past that point.

771
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,360
This is the arbitrariness of 
this, what we're talking about 

772
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:35,720
here. 
It's just this line that we 

773
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,160
said. 
We're not helping kids read who 

774
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,320
couldn't read. 
We're leaving them behind. 

775
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,200
We're not even doing that. 
We're doing the only thing that 

776
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,880
ends up making schools league 
tables look better. 

777
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,520
It's like the worst middle 
ground isn't, It's the worst. 

778
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,480
So we're being forced and now 
are our focus. 

779
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,200
And then in doing that, we've 
this now limited focus. 

780
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,040
We're doing it in the wrong 
place. 

781
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,720
Exactly. 
It's like the worst of both 

782
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,840
worlds are not we've we're not 
doing these things with these 

783
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,520
given talented children. 
OK, we can go over that, but 

784
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,640
we're also not even helping with
this narrowed focus. 

785
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,440
The the lowest of able children 
who will need this help the 

786
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:03,760
most. 
And do you know what I think 

787
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:04,960
this does? 
Do you know what I think that 

788
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,320
genuinely doesn't? 
It's what I've always thought in

789
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,080
my whole career. 
That explains why setting works.

790
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,200
Explain what you mean. 
Because now those children who 

791
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,520
have been forgotten in the mixed
cannot be forgotten because 

792
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:15,680
they're the only ones in the 
class. 

793
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,040
Yeah, we have a foundation group
of children who are learning to 

794
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:18,680
read together. 
Still. 

795
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,320
True, True. 
We have a group of children who 

796
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,040
are almost gifted and talented. 
Fantastic maths. 

797
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,920
I can only stretch them. 
They can do this stuff. 

798
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,160
It's fantastic. 
I can only give them my full 

799
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,320
attention. 
And then we give those children 

800
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,840
exactly what they need because 
it's a more of a narrow focus. 

801
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,080
It forces it. 
It's a good point. 

802
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,600
So I just think that's one or 
more benefit of, of sets. 

803
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,120
I mean, we can. 
As I say, it brings us nicely 

804
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,960
back to what we were doing, 
which was just talking about if 

805
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,160
we're, if we're really trying to
argue the case for setting, that

806
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,000
would be one of those points. 
I think so confident I'll read 

807
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,600
through this one quickly because
we kind of touched on it. 

808
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,120
Confidence is another one. 
And the reason it's in here now 

809
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,480
is because that that study 
showed that actually it didn't, 

810
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,960
it didn't negatively impact the 
confidence so badly that this 

811
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,280
the, the setting is the worst 
thing that could possibly have 

812
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,760
happened to children. 
It did the opposite. 

813
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,880
Like it actually really, really,
really challenged that and said,

814
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,400
I actually know the confidence 
was better when when we sat. 

815
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:05,800
Doesn't mean it's always the 
case, right? 

816
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,800
But it does back up our 
experience as teachers and 

817
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,600
probably thousands of listeners 
right now who are also thinking,

818
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,800
oh, I'm also a really competent,
passionate maths teacher. 

819
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,280
And whenever I've been in any 
set, whether it's mixed or not, 

820
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,000
the confidence of the children 
increases because that's what I 

821
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,720
bring to the table as a teacher.
And and also it just it just 

822
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,040
inherently. 
I've always thought this 

823
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,920
inherently, if, if you have a 
base level of you're doing 

824
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,640
nothing for confidence, right? 
I do think that inherently if 

825
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,840
you have mixed ability and 
you're not paying any effort 

826
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,920
into that confidence and you 
have a set and you're not paying

827
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,400
any effort into that confidence,
the confidence of the children, 

828
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,040
the mixed ability will be worse 
because they're seeing other 

829
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,680
children be able to do stuff 
that they really struggle with. 

830
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,600
By definition, that's going to 
knock their confidence. 

831
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,560
Whereas if they're in a targeted
group and they just have a 

832
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,160
couple become more normal for 
them, it'll be all getting 

833
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,000
support here. 
It it, it, it was nonsense to me

834
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,640
and it's just, that's the part 
that frustrates me. 

835
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,880
I agree. 
I always feel like when people 

836
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,040
when I have had debates and 
arguments about mixed ability or

837
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,760
not, but I feel like they always
go to this like level of 

838
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,160
completely unrealistic like 
assumptions where they think 

839
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,400
because I'm doing setting, that 
means what I'm going to do is 

840
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,360
I'm going to put hats on all the
children and say you're in set. 

841
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:09,840
Everyone needs to know you're in
set 2. 

842
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,240
And by the way, kids, set 2 is 
the worst one. 

843
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,360
Let's make sure we all know it. 
Like, no one's doing that. 

844
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,200
I know no one's doing that. 
Especially in primary, it's 

845
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,040
easier to isolate and and and 
also, But this is the thing. 

846
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,600
Kids can understand that and 
know that, right? 

847
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,320
They also can understand and 
know that in a mixed ability 

848
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,160
class, because oh that's weird, 
We're all on the rectangle table

849
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,320
and the rectangle table gets a 
teaching assistant every single 

850
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:33,360
day and a different sheet to 
everyone. 

851
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:34,680
Else, oh, no deal. 
And we don't even do that. 

852
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,680
We just completely mix up the 
children where they are in the 

853
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:37,280
classroom. 
Cool. 

854
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,800
Now that's the child that can do
the other worksheet you've given

855
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,280
them because in your mixed 
ability, you say you've 

856
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,280
differentiated. 
It's rated three ways and 

857
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:44,560
they've got this sheet and 
they've got that one. 

858
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:45,640
Sorry. 
Yeah, sorry. 

859
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:46,880
Why have I got a different 
sheet? 

860
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,360
Oh, well, this has happened 
before to me. 

861
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,080
Why have I got a different 
sheet? 

862
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,080
OK, well, I'm obviously not 
going to say to you right now 

863
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,960
because you are not of a certain
level of attainment. 

864
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,200
That means you can do it. 
Yeah. 

865
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,080
But I also like, you're not 
stupid. 

866
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,520
I can't lie to you. 
What do you I end up saying? 

867
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,400
Oh, it's we're doing the same 
thing. 

868
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,200
Just you might get a little bit 
of help. 

869
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,080
Yeah. 
Even me saying that means that 

870
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,280
they know they're getting more 
help now. 

871
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,560
Like like I I don't feel like I 
can answer that question 

872
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:12,639
truthfully. 
It's so true. 

873
00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:14,600
Do you know what that exam? 
Because that's happened to be 

874
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,840
loads of hands as well. 
The the situation where a child 

875
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,159
has asked me why they've got a 
different sheet of someone else 

876
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,320
has cringed me out so much more 
to the point where like that 

877
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:24,480
alone was enough to make me 
think. 

878
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,120
I would rather they were just in
a group where everyone got this 

879
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,320
sheet and there was no, no, they
didn't know any different. 

880
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:30,840
Well, they just put them on 
tables all together. 

881
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,920
So they've all got the sheet 
together, that setting, that 

882
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,480
setting and it's setting without
different input. 

883
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,000
Yeah, which the worst of both 
worlds. 

884
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,320
We do mixed ability classes, but
we just have each table as a 

885
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:42,400
set. 
Yeah, right. 

886
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,600
OK, So you you are doing the 
setting and then then you're 

887
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,320
giving them one input instead 
of. 

888
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,320
If you did setting, you'd have 
three or four different inputs 

889
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,040
at the level that they need. 
I think, I think people that are

890
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,719
still champions of own, like 
mixed ability is the only way to

891
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,000
go and there's no place for 
setting. 

892
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:57,520
I think they need to go to the 
next level. 

893
00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,880
I think they need to in their 
school. 

894
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:01,320
They need to say we're going to 
get rid of year groups. 

895
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,440
They have to. 
It's the only logical 

896
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,520
conclusion. 
We don't set by year. 

897
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,600
We don't say that just when a 
child is born determines their 

898
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,920
ability or not. 
So we have a completely fluid 

899
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,200
system. 
I think that's the only logical 

900
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:13,960
conclusion. 
Just get them all in and every 

901
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,000
every single day, but boom, 
split up into 30s. 

902
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:20,000
Yeah, you're doing long 
multiplication today. 

903
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,360
I'm I'm full and I can't add 
it's don't you know all mixed 

904
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,320
ability is better? 
Oh dear, you're so naive. 

905
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,560
We don't split up the 30s, we 
teach the entire school at once 

906
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:32,880
and we just differentiate 18 
ways because everyone is 

907
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,400
learning place value at the same
time. 

908
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:35,840
Yeah, across our school. 
True, true. 

909
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,120
So there's no reason why they 
can't all be in the same room. 

910
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,000
Because I don't want some of the
children to realise that they're

911
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:45,840
not as capable as others. 
Year 5 and I'm in year 40. 

912
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,840
They're older. 
Yeah, they're older. 

913
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,400
Oh, we just. 
Yeah, we do just set them by 

914
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,720
year group and then maybe we 
just go slightly deeper than 

915
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:52,880
that. 
We do our tables and pretend 

916
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,440
it's. 
No, the line is exactly where it

917
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,440
is Hayden right now, which is 
that we set by year group and 

918
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:57,600
then we don't do any more 
setting at all. 

919
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,640
And that happens to be we set, 
we set by age, which is the best

920
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,080
way to set. 
And then we don't set by 

921
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:07,000
attainment, which is awful. 
Oh, I I I I reckon. 

922
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,560
I reckon setting by age is a 
worse way to set children than 

923
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,360
attainment is. 
Definitely, of course, I 

924
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,520
definitely taught children by 
year six who who are 

925
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,760
significantly significantly of 
of different attainment to the 

926
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,000
other children in that class. 
We're talking years worth of 

927
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,600
gaps where really just putting 
you in the classroom because 

928
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,560
they're in that year group was 
actually probably the worst way.

929
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,280
If we're going to do sets to do 
that genuinely, genuinely that 

930
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:30,440
that is actually not where they 
need to be. 

931
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,520
Yeah. 
And I think this just sums it up

932
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,960
here in terms of I think for 
years and years and years. 

933
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,320
This new study suggests that the
headline of harm to the low 

934
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,840
attainers, which seems to be the
one that's banned about a lot as

935
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,640
to why they don't do it. 
We don't harm the low attainers.

936
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:48,960
It it feels like it might not be
the actual truth all of the time

937
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,520
to the extent where it can 
really affect you as a school. 

938
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,200
I think we just have to look at 
this and just go, OK, look, 

939
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,280
there's mixed research that we 
can even just say that at this 

940
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:58,760
point. 
There's mixed research here. 

941
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,600
Let's think about our setting. 
Let's think about every other 

942
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,600
aspect to why we might do 
setting or mixed ability and 

943
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,680
then make a decision that isn't 
vilified from one side but is 

944
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,720
instead rooted in what we think 
is best for our school. 

945
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:12,360
Definitely. 
So here's the fun bit of the 

946
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:13,920
podcast episode. 
Dylan, anyone listening, if 

947
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,120
you've been vehemently agreeing 
or disagreeing of parts or 

948
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,840
complete disagreement ring, the 
fun bit is we're going to 

949
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,920
completely switch it up now 
because now we're going to talk 

950
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,240
through the pros of mixed 
ability and I think this is. 

951
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,440
Oh, it's empty. 
And even though we clearly have 

952
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,520
a bias towards the fact that 
what we've done our whole career

953
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,080
is I don't think mixed stability
is bad. 

954
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,120
Of course I don't just in fact, 
in some situations, I know 

955
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,120
you're joking. 
Some situations, I would almost 

956
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,360
always think mixed stability was
the best, the best outcome, 

957
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:39,960
like. 
So let's go now. 

958
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,000
Now through then some some some 
points about mixed ability, you 

959
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,600
can get a. 100 percent, 100%. 
And you know what, Just just you

960
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,160
know, we're going to come on to 
workload in a second. 

961
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:47,640
People might be thinking what 
about workload? 

962
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,600
There seems to be obvious 
answers here why workload might 

963
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,320
be better or worse in these 
different situations. 

964
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,880
We'll come on to that. 
We're really just trying to talk

965
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,200
about the actual impact of the 
children here. 

966
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,160
So yeah, OK, so the labelling 
problem we're talking about 

967
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,240
confidence doesn't go away just 
because this study didn't pick 

968
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:01,440
up on it. 
And what we're saying here is 

969
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:04,760
this was a very specific study. 
For example, it just looked at 

970
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,560
maths, it's math specific. 
self-confidence found a small 

971
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,240
negative effect in mixed 
attainment schools. 

972
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,760
There's a lot of long standing 
studies out there and research 

973
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,680
again, leaning into what we said
about there's mixed research, 

974
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,440
right, Of course, right that the
longer term self concept, it's 

975
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,680
more mixed. 
OK, the headline here is very 

976
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,600
clear. 
It says oh it's actually worse 

977
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,120
confidence when you do mixed. 
But it was only over 2 years. 

978
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:27,880
Exactly. 
And it was very specific, right.

979
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,520
So, so in general, I think that 
the point we're making here is 

980
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,760
that we can look at this study 
and we can jump on a bandwagon 

981
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,200
and say, Oh yeah, it means this 
all the time. 

982
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,480
There's a lot of research out 
there, which is a lot of 

983
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,080
different, like you said, 
methodologies, a lot of 

984
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,440
different backgrounds, a lot of 
different, you know, types of 

985
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,640
school, etcetera. 
I don't think you can just pick 

986
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:44,640
it up and wear it. 
I agree. 

987
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:46,360
Yeah. 
If we're going to the the most 

988
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,280
holistic view we possibly can, 
which is over the child's entire

989
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,920
career in education, like you 
said, there are plenty of 

990
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,320
studies that say actually 
overall though it does have a 

991
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,240
negative. 
Impact to to and I can think in 

992
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:59,280
secondary school, you know, like
we were called, you know, I was 

993
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,920
in set one, there was set 7, but
I'm not being funny. 

994
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,520
Like you're 14. 
I'm in set seven. 

995
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,120
I can imagine very much that had
detrimentary. 

996
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,080
But like you're gonna, you're 
gonna have your confidence here 

997
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,520
in different ways, right? 
Yeah. 

998
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,760
So that way, it's very, it's 
very out there. 

999
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,640
It's very public. 
You're in set seven, I'm in set 

1000
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:16,920
one. 
That's obviously gonna hit you, 

1001
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,680
but your confidence will be hit 
in a different way. 

1002
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,640
There's a mixed ability class. 
Maybe there's a bit more quiet, 

1003
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,040
maybe a bit more like, you know,
introverted way. 

1004
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,240
Oh God, I can see those doing 
that. 

1005
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:26,600
I know it's not gonna be a label
of set 7 on me, but my 

1006
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,320
confidence might be hit in a 
different way where actually I 

1007
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,640
see how amazing these people are
at maths and I struggle with it.

1008
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,080
Yeah, potentially. 
So there's different ways 

1009
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:33,400
confidence. 
But that scene is different, 

1010
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:34,440
isn't it? 
Because like you said, you kind 

1011
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,040
of alluded to this before. 
Like there are some topics 

1012
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,720
within maths though, where you 
might find if you're that set 

1013
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:42,560
seven person, you might find 
actually I'm not so bad at this 

1014
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,800
one and I can benchmark that I'm
not so bad about this because 

1015
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,160
because in this lesson, the 
children around me, I feel like 

1016
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:48,760
I'm doing the same sort of level
of work. 

1017
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,520
Like there are opportunities 
that ceilings removed in mixed 

1018
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:56,160
ability sets for children within
topics fluidly whenever the time

1019
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,000
arises to show what they're made
of rather than just constantly 

1020
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,280
thinking I'm in set 7 therefore 
I am bad at all maths and the 

1021
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:04,840
ceilings put on me straight away
by the teacher anyway. 

1022
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,280
I'm not even going to get to 
explore potentially how I might 

1023
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,840
actually be good at this this 
particular area of maths because

1024
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,480
the teacher has assumed I'm in 
set seven. 

1025
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,720
I'm not a good so the worksheets
already low ability for me. 

1026
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,200
I think we're we're, we're 
touching a bit into quality of 

1027
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,640
teaching now as well. 
But but you're right in terms of

1028
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,800
that's just a reality. 
This is for me one of the 

1029
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,200
biggest ones. 
It's misallocation. 

1030
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,800
It's rampant. 
What we're talking about here is

1031
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,800
children in the wrong set. 
Ah, yeah, yeah. 

1032
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,880
OK, So Connolly ETAL 2019 looked
over 9000 year sevens and found 

1033
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,440
that 31% of pupils were placed 
in the wrong set based on look 

1034
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,280
at this, they're key stage 2 
scores. 

1035
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,960
So I can see why there's a lot 
of, you know, looking at this 

1036
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,920
and thinking this is just a very
specific, you know, year 7 based

1037
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,360
on key stage 2 scores. 
But in general we can see how 

1038
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,040
misallocation can be really 
problematic. 

1039
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,640
Of course we can extrapolate 
that easily, can't we? 

1040
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,800
To assume there's obviously, 
obviously it's going to be a 

1041
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,360
problem that sometimes children 
are going to be in the wrong 

1042
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:57,400
sets. 
And and the whole point of 

1043
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,120
setting is it only works if kids
in the right place. 

1044
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,440
Yeah. 
So if they're not in the right 

1045
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,680
place, it's a very obvious 
counter argument to say, well, 

1046
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,480
setting's not very good then is 
it in this situation because 

1047
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,320
there are lots of kids who are 
now not in the right place. 

1048
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,120
Completely and whereas, you 
know, it's I'm not sure and I 

1049
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,520
know we put this together. 
I know the joke was that we 

1050
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,560
prefer setting and I do think 
there's, there's definitely 

1051
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,480
mixed ability is good, but here 
it feels more like a positive 

1052
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,720
for mixed abilities that some 
people do setting badly. 

1053
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,720
It's like, oh, kids are 
misallocated in the wrong place.

1054
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:28,480
OK, right. 
So if we're saying they're 

1055
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,080
misallocated, right? 
Are they not constantly 

1056
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,920
misallocated if they're in a 
mixed stability set because 

1057
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:34,680
they're not even allocated in 
the 1st place, They're already 

1058
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,280
with the wrong people. 
We're saying it's a 

1059
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,000
misallocation. 
That's interesting if it if it's

1060
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,920
inherently not set at all. 
No. 

1061
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,400
Oh, but they're in the wrong 
place here. 

1062
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,240
Like, yeah, oh, no, they need to
be in that set. 

1063
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,520
Let's put them all in one room 
instead and just do one lesson. 

1064
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,520
I know, I think, I think there's
a flaw in that argument because 

1065
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,920
I think, I think the whole point
of the misallocation becomes 

1066
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,640
strong with setting because the 
point of sets is there's clear 

1067
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,080
ceilings and. 
This this is meant to be why 

1068
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:57,400
mixed ability is good. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1069
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,600
But in mixed ability, the idea 
is there is no floor and no 

1070
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,480
ceiling, right. 
So the misallocation is kind of,

1071
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:02,640
it's kind of. 
Redundant. 

1072
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,400
Why is it misallocated? 
If they're in the wrong set, 

1073
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,360
what does it mean? 
What does misallocate so they're

1074
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,040
in the wrong set? 
They're misallocated. 

1075
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,720
Why is that bad? 
Because in that set, inherently 

1076
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:12,840
they there will be ceilings on 
the level of work they have. 

1077
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,560
Yeah. 
Whereas in in the mixed ability,

1078
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,120
there's complete fluidity. 
So they only get fluidity of the

1079
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:18,320
work. 
No, it's not inherent. 

1080
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,080
It's not inherent. 
In good setting teaching. 

1081
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:22,560
It's not OK. 
OK, so this is. 

1082
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,400
Not what we're saying this is. 
This is basically saying mixed 

1083
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,400
ability is good because if you 
do setting bad then this is. 

1084
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:28,160
OK, cool. 
So. 

1085
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:29,320
So ignore that. 
I agree. 

1086
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:29,720
I agree. 
I agree. 

1087
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:30,160
No, no. 
So. 

1088
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:31,520
This is what I'm saying. 
We should be ignoring that. 

1089
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,800
We can't be saying that because 
if you do setting bad, the mixed

1090
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,040
ability is good. 
That's not a reason mixed 

1091
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:37,160
ability is good. 
You're right, you're right. 

1092
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,400
So so in terms of there being a 
misallocation, it's like, oh, 

1093
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,840
actually they're getting the 
wrong input now they're getting 

1094
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:43,000
the wrong input and the wrong 
task. 

1095
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,480
Hello, mixed ability. 
There's one input and there's 

1096
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,800
seven different levels. 
Inherently to me, this is not 

1097
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,440
this misallocation thing is not 
a reason why mixed ability is 

1098
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,960
good It to me, if we're saying 
this is a problem with setting, 

1099
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,680
then it's a huge problem for 
mixed. 

1100
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,080
So the you're in the wrong place
here that this input's not for 

1101
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:02,520
you. 
Yeah. 

1102
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:04,520
Wow. 
So should we go to the one where

1103
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,320
everyone's doing one input and 
the vast majority are getting 

1104
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,560
the wrong input? 
Yeah, it's true. 

1105
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,320
It's true. 
I think I always it's not very 

1106
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:12,520
strong. 
The input I think is a really 

1107
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,000
good argument. 
I was thinking more of, and I 

1108
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,200
know there's a flaw in this, 
which I'll say I was thinking 

1109
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,440
more along the lines of tasks. 
Like quite often in sets, there 

1110
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,000
will be a set task because it's 
already they're already 

1111
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,840
streamlined in terms of the 
ability range in that in that 

1112
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,480
group. 
So it'll just be a task that 

1113
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,240
everyone does. 
Whereas in the idea in mixed 

1114
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:29,840
ability is that there are a 
range of tasks and there's a lot

1115
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,080
more fluidity between children, 
what they can do within the 

1116
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:33,920
lesson, which is nonsense. 
But I also think it's nonsense 

1117
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,880
because the end of the day, 
that's bad setting. 

1118
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,680
Yeah, exactly. 
Good setting will still account 

1119
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,120
for the children in your class 
and constantly be re re 

1120
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,160
evaluating and thinking how can 
I stretch these children? 

1121
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,120
And I, I I would still in my in 
my setting, I'd still have a 

1122
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:47,160
couple of different things I'm 
gonna. 

1123
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:48,480
Show me, that's exactly what I'm
saying. 

1124
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,560
So good setting. 
Yeah, it's like, it's like 

1125
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,400
saying if you do setting worse 
mixed ability is good. 

1126
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,440
Yeah, If we do mixed ability 
worse, it's not. 

1127
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,280
It's not an inherent reason. 
Yeah, yeah, I don't think. 

1128
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,320
I think it's an odd one. 
OK, so not great evidence so 

1129
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,160
far. 
So teacher allocation UK and US 

1130
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,400
evidence both suggests, as 
experienced teachers tend to be 

1131
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,720
allocated to lower sets despite 
those pupils arguably needing 

1132
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:09,160
the most expert teaching. 
The new EEF guidance 

1133
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,480
specifically calls this out as 
something that you have to fix. 

1134
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,480
So again, doing setting bad 
right? 

1135
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,200
It is though, isn't it really? 
I get it. 

1136
00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:17,240
OK, so, so in this situation, 
right. 

1137
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,440
OK, so let's say there's it's 
four form entry, there are four 

1138
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,480
teachers and you've got an 
order. 1 is the best, 4 is the 

1139
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:25,680
worst. 
Just do right. 

1140
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:26,680
OK. 
Yep. 

1141
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,560
If you do setting and you go OK,
the tops are gonna get teacher 

1142
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,800
one and we're gonna go down, 
down, down, down, right? 

1143
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:32,480
Yeah, sure. 
Cool. 

1144
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,240
OK, that's bad, isn't it? 
That's bad. 

1145
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,320
That's bad. 
They're getting teacher 4 at the

1146
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:38,360
bottom. 
OK. 

1147
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,800
Yeah, mixed ability. 
Someone's still getting Teacher 

1148
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,240
4. 
Someone still getting the 

1149
00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:44,920
teacher was saying it's worse. 
Yeah, it's true. 

1150
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,400
And within that class, there 
still be children at the bottom 

1151
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,040
who need the most support who 
actually are getting a worst. 

1152
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,320
If it was just teacher four with
those children who are low 

1153
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,560
retainers, or it's teacher four 
with lower attainers and middle 

1154
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,120
attainers and higher attainers, 
they're getting a worse deal. 

1155
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,360
Yeah, again, to me does not give
a reason as to why inherently 

1156
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,520
mixed abilities better. 
It's just saying there's a 

1157
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,680
problem with with sets. 
So we should just do mixed 

1158
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,800
ability. 
The same problem exists. 

1159
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,600
If anything it just says oh this
is a nice way of fine tuning to 

1160
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,120
make sets even better. 
And just to be really clear 

1161
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,280
here, I'm kind of pushing it to 
the to the Max. 

1162
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,760
I actually do think that when 
you do set, I do think it's good

1163
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,160
practise to make sure your 
strong teachers are with 

1164
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:23,440
children who need the most input
and support. 

1165
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,280
Because I think if you think 
about that teacher #1 being with

1166
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,480
the low attainers and four with 
the high attainers that I think 

1167
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,800
would get better outcomes for 
everyone than if you swapped it 

1168
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,560
around. 
I think there's everyone. 

1169
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,280
There's more room for movement 
with those lower retainers than 

1170
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:39,760
there is for movement with the 
high retainers. 

1171
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,000
There's more room for building 
confidence because a lot of the 

1172
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:43,280
high attainers already have the 
confidence. 

1173
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,360
There's more room of getting 
children, less foundational 

1174
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,440
knowledge and keys skills where 
they should be because the tops 

1175
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,560
already have that. 
So I think that you can still, I

1176
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,960
think, have a preference. 
And I do think strong teachers 

1177
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,880
should not be glossed over for 
those lower. 

1178
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:01,240
It's kind of a, it's a, it's a 
really annoying analogy really, 

1179
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:02,560
because it's like, it's like a 
lose, lose situation. 

1180
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,560
Because I could easily counter 
that by saying, well, by 

1181
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,080
definition, you're falling into 
the trap of it's better for 

1182
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:10,560
everyone because the gap's 
smaller at the end, because 

1183
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:11,880
you've put your strongest 
teacher with the lowest 

1184
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:13,440
attainment, so they've made more
progress. 

1185
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,720
And if that stronger teacher was
with the top attainers instead 

1186
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:18,840
of the the weakest teacher, the 
top attainers would have made 

1187
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,320
more progress than they did with
the weakest teacher. 

1188
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,280
So the gap smaller looks better.
Whereas realistically at the end

1189
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,520
of the day though those top 
attainers we chose, they were 

1190
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,120
the worst option for them. 
So I think or everything we said

1191
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,440
there is absolutely true of a 
certain level, there's a certain

1192
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,800
low attainment where I'm like, 
yeah, what we just said is true,

1193
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,040
everyone be brought up, right. 
I think there is a level lower 

1194
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,880
where that is vital and comes 
first. 

1195
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,400
Sure. 
So if children can't add, if 

1196
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,720
children can't recognise number,
if children are that far behind 

1197
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,040
that they literally they can't 
sabotize, right. 

1198
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,880
And they're in year 3-4 and 
five, they need the strongest 

1199
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:54,040
teachers to get into a certain 
level. 

1200
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,360
Yeah. 
So I just think there's a little

1201
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,800
cap there where I'm like, OK, 
what? 

1202
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,800
You've just heard me explain it 
exactly what I think when in 

1203
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:01,680
general. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

1204
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,080
But if the lowest of the lowest 
of the low, they need that 

1205
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,120
targeted really quality good 
support to get to that level 

1206
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,640
where I'm saying that's cool, by
the way, that isn't the expected

1207
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,240
level. 
No, no, there's loads of 

1208
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:12,600
children working in the working 
towards it's. 

1209
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,840
On their journey. 
It's on it's on the maximising 

1210
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:16,920
their journey. 
Like they need that really, 

1211
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:18,920
really specific input. 
But I agree completely. 

1212
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:20,920
I agree completely. 
I just, I think it's I think 

1213
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,760
it's a good thing to because 
when you're constantly only 

1214
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,160
giving your best teachers to 
your best children, you are 

1215
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,000
making that choice to exacerbate
it right? 

1216
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,720
Always. 
And it's like what I'm saying is

1217
00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:34,400
there should be no preference. 
It should just be who gets what.

1218
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,600
It doesn't matter. 
It shouldn't just always be the 

1219
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,920
lowest, always get what we 
define as the worst teacher. 

1220
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,880
It shouldn't be like that. 
No, no, it shouldn't really 

1221
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,280
matter. 
What you should do is look at 

1222
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:43,680
your teachers and look at your 
kids and see what they. 

1223
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,720
Need exactly it should it should
be bespoke every single year. 

1224
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:47,280
Yeah, genuinely, all of this 
stuff should be bespoke. 

1225
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,720
We we, we did that were sets, 
didn't we? 

1226
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:50,880
We always said when we we did, 
we did setting. 

1227
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,840
You know, we had a free form 
Junior School. 

1228
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,560
We did setting some years we 
didn't. 

1229
00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:57,960
Yeah, because we looked at the 
data, we looked at the children,

1230
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,600
we listened to the teachers from
last year and we would sometimes

1231
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,680
say, let's do mixed, that would 
happen. 

1232
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,120
We had a hybrid. 
Most of the time we came to the 

1233
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,080
conclusion that setting was the 
right thing to do. 

1234
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:11,840
But setting in year 4 and Year 5
and year 6 looked different, 

1235
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:13,760
looked completely different 
because it was based on what 

1236
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:14,840
the. 
Child, we always looked at the 

1237
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,040
cohort that's absolutely right. 
And it was always, basically, it

1238
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,480
was honestly, it was basically 
always a hybrid because even 

1239
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:21,720
even setting, we didn't do it in
the traditional format of 

1240
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:23,520
literally chunk the children. 
Not always the. 

1241
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:28,120
Children 1 to 96 and do the 
direct chance quite often, at 

1242
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,240
least in my experience, we, we 
literally just looked at the 

1243
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:32,960
cohort and then eased in their 
attainment and just thought, 

1244
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,240
what do they, what do these kids
need? 

1245
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,440
Do we need to take the top 32 
children and the next 30 

1246
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:39,600
children or can they just all be
mixed? 

1247
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:41,240
Sometimes they're like, they can
just be mixed. 

1248
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,800
That's, that's absolutely fine. 
OK, but do we need to take the, 

1249
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,160
the, the lowest 60 entertainers?
Do you know what actually, 

1250
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,480
they've got significant gaps 
here from this point onwards and

1251
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:49,680
they can see they've got a lot 
of similarities. 

1252
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,040
I think they'd benefit from 
being in one, in one place 

1253
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,840
together with this particular 
teacher who's, and we'd look at 

1254
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:56,840
that every single time and, and 
that's how it should be done. 

1255
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,320
But anyway, back to this, this 
is so I feel like we're just 

1256
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,280
kind of dismantling the, the 
arguments for mixed ability. 

1257
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,520
But here's another one though, 
that I, that I, I always, I feel

1258
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,240
like I could dismantle this a 
bit, but I feel like this is 

1259
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:10,680
what always got thrown at me 
constantly my whole career. 

1260
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,520
I got told this was true and I 
was a bad teacher, but I didn't 

1261
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,560
agree with it, right? 
It's the whole effects of peers,

1262
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,760
right? 
So Vygotsky zone of proximal 

1263
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:19,480
development, all, all this 
research you learn when you're, 

1264
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,120
when you're, when you're 
training to be a teacher, right?

1265
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,360
A lot of qualitative work 
suggests that lower attainers 

1266
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,000
can and will benefit from being 
around and surrounded by the 

1267
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,000
higher attainers. 
OK. 

1268
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,720
And by being near, near those 
more capable peers, they will 

1269
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:36,040
learn from them, also resolve 
from them and, and people. 

1270
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:37,840
And, and that's, that's true, 
right? 

1271
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,960
But what people say to me is 
there's no loss in this. 

1272
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,560
This is a benefit to everybody 
because the higher attainers 

1273
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,520
will learn more by teaching and 
helping those children that are 

1274
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,360
lower attainers than them, and 
the lower attainers will benefit

1275
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,200
from it. 
As if that's like the perfect 

1276
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,240
diss all solved. 
And I have always, always 

1277
00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:57,440
struggled with that. 
And. 

1278
00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,200
Yeah. 
And I know you have as well and 

1279
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,240
you're probably just come in. 
No, no, no, go on. 

1280
00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:03,600
I'll jump in because I feel like
we've basically addressed this 

1281
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,400
already in this episode. 
We've we have agreed, I don't 

1282
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,480
know if you agree as well 
listening, but we have agreed 

1283
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:13,360
that if, if I set with the 
higher attainers, I can push 

1284
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,000
them on more than I than I could
have done if they're enigibility

1285
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,160
set and the research we started 
with kind of backed that up as 

1286
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,240
well. 
So what are we saying then, 

1287
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:23,080
which one's true? 
Because if we're also saying 

1288
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,600
none of the higher achievers 
will will achieve more in a 

1289
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,680
mixed ability set because they 
can help the lower attainers. 

1290
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:29,840
This comes to a point, right 
where I just thought in my 

1291
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,000
career I was like, oh, no, 
that's not true. 

1292
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:32,720
We just say that, yeah, it's 
that's not that's not true. 

1293
00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:34,160
It's copium. 
Yeah, yeah, exactly that. 

1294
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:35,760
It's copium. 
Copium with the highest order, 

1295
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:37,560
yeah. 
We just say that justify it. 

1296
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:38,760
Yeah, we just have to. 
We have to. 

1297
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,400
We just don't want to accept the
fact that in a mixed ability set

1298
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,200
in a lot of in a lot of 
circumstances, those higher 

1299
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:45,760
achievers actually won't make as
much progress. 

1300
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,880
And actually, do you know what 
the most beneficial thing for 

1301
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,120
them is actually not helping a 
child who's who has lower 

1302
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:52,960
attainment than them. 
That's actually not the best 

1303
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:54,680
thing for them to do. 
The best thing to do is be 

1304
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,840
pushed even more completely and 
not have anything to do that 

1305
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,400
other child. 
Yeah, there is to say. 

1306
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,360
That no, there is, there is 
definitely something to be said,

1307
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,120
which is what this rooted in 
again, where the ability to 

1308
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,160
explain what you're thinking or 
understand. 

1309
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,680
So let's say a child is really 
proficient with long 

1310
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,000
multiplication, right? 
But the act of getting that 

1311
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,080
child to really explain in 
detail what they're doing at 

1312
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,160
each step and why is a good way 
of forcing a child to really 

1313
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,040
think about it, to express 
themselves. 

1314
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,200
It's good oracy, it's good to 
check for understanding and it's

1315
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,800
actually good. 
If you're able to explain 

1316
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,280
something at a lower and lower 
level, then that shows it. 

1317
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,120
I think it's it's widely 
accepted that shows a mastery of

1318
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:30,520
the. 
Subject. 

1319
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:31,680
Yeah, like conceptual 
competence. 

1320
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,600
Yeah, like based on who's in 
front of you, you can change how

1321
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,880
you articulate something so they
understand it, right. 

1322
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,640
We've seen these videos online 
of astrophysicists explained 

1323
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,080
like a black hole to five 
different things. 

1324
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,280
And it's it's a four year old, a
10 year old, a 16 year old 

1325
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:47,080
graduate and a doctor. 
True mastery. 

1326
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:48,520
Yeah. 
And, and the conversations are 

1327
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,560
fantastic because they're 
getting across the same point 

1328
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:52,760
but at different levels. 
There's something to be said for

1329
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,800
children who are really good at 
maths, being able to do that and

1330
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,160
support and help, right. 
Not every single day of every 

1331
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,520
single lesson. 
That becomes copium. 

1332
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,280
That becomes when I say copium 
for anyone, it's not, it's not 

1333
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:04,680
an element. 
I'm just saying it's cope. 

1334
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,520
It's the way we cope with the 
fact that which we, we, we 

1335
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,160
really deep down, yeah, we deep 
down we know it's not the best 

1336
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,440
for them, but we try and find a 
way of coping with that. 

1337
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:14,800
And that's by us saying, oh, 
it's good for them, isn't it? 

1338
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,120
No at. 
Least they're developing this 

1339
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,000
little subset of skills that we 
know is important. 

1340
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:19,840
But like you said, doing it all 
the time, every single day, 

1341
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,880
every single day, probably not 
the most beneficial thing for 

1342
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:23,640
them to be doing on an 
individual level. 

1343
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,120
And it's always that battle to 
me of like, how much do we care 

1344
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,160
about the meta? 
And we're looking at, you know, 

1345
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,880
children in general. 
Is it, is it just about bringing

1346
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,000
the lower attainers up at any 
cost? 

1347
00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:36,880
Because if that's the case, 
that's a good argument. 

1348
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,640
If if we look at individuals and
say what is best for this 

1349
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,600
individual at this moment, 
regardless of any other factor, 

1350
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,600
I think there are situations in 
mixed ability where you can't 

1351
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,480
say that's the best outcome for 
that exact child in the. 

1352
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:51,040
Season. 
Of course not. 

1353
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,040
Of course not. 
And you know what, if you do set

1354
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,320
and have a lower attainment 
class like I used to have, they 

1355
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,160
can still talk to each other. 
By the way, there are still 

1356
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:58,960
children who get things and 
children who course there's a 

1357
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:00,360
range. 
I help them. 

1358
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:04,080
Yeah, because it tends to be in 
not always, but you can become 

1359
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,320
become aware of trends and ideas
of things which your children 

1360
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:08,920
might not get and you can help 
them you can group them 

1361
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:10,080
together. 
It's just more. 

1362
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:11,400
Effective. 
Yeah, because it's because your 

1363
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,040
your understanding of the group 
that you have as a teacher is 

1364
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:17,000
immediately reducing scope in a 
lot of circumstances. 

1365
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:18,600
Not always. 
This is the beauty of being an 

1366
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,240
adaptive teacher. 
There'll be sometimes where you 

1367
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:22,400
think, crikey, they absolutely 
could have coped in that other 

1368
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,760
set today, cool, you're a good 
teacher because you recognise 

1369
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,800
that you adapted to it. 
But a lot of the time you can 

1370
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,240
notice those trends and you can 
really focus and nail down on 

1371
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:32,520
the thing that this group are 
typically like to likely to find

1372
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:33,920
hard. 
Absolutely. 

1373
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:35,760
OK. 
Another one here then for mixed 

1374
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,240
stability is about curriculum 
compression in lower sets. 

1375
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,400
Again, it's a negative 
offsetting, not necessarily a 

1376
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:43,960
positive for for for mixed 
ability. 

1377
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,280
But let's have a look. 
The research literature is clear

1378
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,480
that lower sets often get 
narrower, slower, and less rich 

1379
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,400
curriculum. 
If your lower set is doing 

1380
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,960
arithmetic drills while the top 
set is doing reasoning and 

1381
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,720
proof, the gap can never close 
by design. 

1382
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:59,120
I fundamentally disagree with 
that. 

1383
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:01,800
Why? 
Because the because if the if 

1384
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,480
children can't do arithmetic, 
then their reasoning and their 

1385
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,000
problem solving is going to be 
shot to pieces. 

1386
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,360
There is a reason. 
It's a foundational basis, a 

1387
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,160
reason one, the thing leads on 
to another. 

1388
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,920
I'm not saying children should 
never do reasoning at all. 

1389
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:14,880
You should always be doing 
reasoning and problem solving 

1390
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:16,640
based on things that you're 
proficient and fluent in. 

1391
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,600
But of course, of course what 
you deliver is going to look 

1392
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:22,040
different in lower sets to 
higher sets. 

1393
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:23,880
What's the point in doing it 
otherwise? 

1394
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,400
And I think it's just naive to 
think that. 

1395
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,520
So we use the words here, 
narrower, slower and less rich. 

1396
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:31,400
No one wants a less rich 
curriculum. 

1397
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,080
No, I think that, again, this is
a teaching problem, not a 

1398
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:35,440
setting problem. 
It's a teaching problem. 

1399
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:37,440
I've taught lower sets. 
We've had a really rich 

1400
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:38,400
curriculum. 
We've covered the whole 

1401
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,440
curriculum. 
Still slower. 

1402
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:45,000
Yeah, that's kind of the point. 
Yeah, it was slower, obviously. 

1403
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,040
What? 
Oh, you do lower sets, they'll 

1404
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,360
get a slower curriculum. 
I'm just adapting to their. 

1405
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,640
Yeah, as I say, it's not slower 
by design, it's slower by it's 

1406
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,400
it's adaptation. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1407
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,600
They needed to go more slowly on
this because they didn't 

1408
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,480
understand it. 
Yeah, they needed to spend more 

1409
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,040
time doing the arithmetic 
because they can't do. 

1410
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,360
It the idea that everyone knows 
at the same pace is absurd. 

1411
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,680
It's what I mean and it's 
basically saying, well, some 

1412
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:05,600
kids will get a slower ones to 
get them in a mixed ability but 

1413
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,360
where they can't keep up. 
Is that better to you just 

1414
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,040
because it's not got the word 
slower in front of it? 

1415
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,640
So much of this and the 
arguments I've always seen to me

1416
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:15,440
has really sounded like virtue 
signalling. 

1417
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:18,200
So you can't say ability. 
Oh no, you can't go slower. 

1418
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:19,640
Oh no, it's less rich. 
You can't do. 

1419
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:24,080
These kids can't do maths. 
I'm helping them do maths. 

1420
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,000
I'm meeting them where they are 
and being an adaptable teacher. 

1421
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,680
I am going slower and I'm going 
into more detail where I need 

1422
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:30,880
to. 
I'm giving them more chance to 

1423
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,280
practise the things they could 
not do if they were just lumped 

1424
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,720
together in one homogeneous BLOB
where everyone's just mixed, 

1425
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:38,720
where it just happens to be. 
They had the birthday between 

1426
00:55:38,720 --> 00:55:42,760
September and August. 
Why is that more of an adequate 

1427
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,480
way of grouping together 
children than whether they can 

1428
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,840
actually do the thing or not? 
That should be the only thing 

1429
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,560
that matters. 
It shouldn't matter what their 

1430
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,680
backgrounds are like. 
It shouldn't matter what age. 

1431
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:54,520
None of that should matter. 
Can they do it? 

1432
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:55,600
Yes. 
Cool. 

1433
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:56,520
Can they not? 
Cool. 

1434
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,960
We're going to help them. 
Have they got, you know, are 

1435
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:05,120
they, are they just children who
will struggle to work at that 

1436
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,200
pace? 
Yes, go slower. 

1437
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,720
Then it's not a bad thing. 
I guess the counter arguments, 

1438
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:12,000
what you just said is kind of 
what you just said in terms of 

1439
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,680
people understandably say that 
you shouldn't group children on 

1440
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,400
their prior attainment, which is
what setting equally is. 

1441
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,880
Is that understandable kind of 
like because you're saying, you 

1442
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:21,400
know, can they do it or can't 
they do it? 

1443
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:22,480
I don't know. 
I haven't talked to me yet. 

1444
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:23,760
Yeah, but we can get a good 
idea. 

1445
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:25,960
We can. 
We can, but like. 

1446
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:27,840
That's why sets need to be fluid
as well. 

1447
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:30,560
That's an that's a very 
important counter argument. 

1448
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,000
But I can, but I do. 
I can empathise when people say 

1449
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,360
we are just assuming. 
We're constantly assuming. 

1450
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,000
By putting a child into a set, 
we are assuming what they can 

1451
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,160
and can't do across the entire. 
Master, are we are we though? 

1452
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,000
Because what my point, no, my 
point is that it's adaptable. 

1453
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:45,720
It's slow. 
It's not slow because I've 

1454
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:48,160
already decided it's slower. 
It's slow because that that 

1455
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:49,600
class needed to go slower at 
that point. 

1456
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:51,840
And there would be some children
who needed to go quicker 

1457
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,000
probably, But in a mixed ability
class, there'd be far more 

1458
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:55,120
children who needed to go 
quicker. 

1459
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,040
So we're just narrowing that. 
We're narrowing that base of 

1460
00:56:58,040 --> 00:56:59,800
like there are fewer children 
not getting what they need. 

1461
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:01,280
Yeah, right. 
We're just narrowing it. 

1462
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,240
Are we making assumptions? 
You know, we make assumptions 

1463
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:05,760
all of of the time. 
All of the time we're making 

1464
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:07,280
assumptions. 
It's based on pattern spotting, 

1465
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,480
it's based on seeing what 
children can do and we make that

1466
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,440
assumption. 
Then we assess, then we test, 

1467
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:13,400
then we gap analyse, then we 
teach and then we move. 

1468
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:15,320
We move. 
It has to be adaptable. 

1469
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:16,680
It has to be adaptable is the 
word. 

1470
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,640
Adaptable covers everything. 
We make predictions and 

1471
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,000
assumptions and then we adapt. 
Whether that's moving children 

1472
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:24,840
from class to class, whether 
that's my speed, whether that's 

1473
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,760
what I cover, Whatever it is, 
it's quality first. 

1474
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,160
Teaching can make it work and 
make it better. 

1475
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,960
But if we just say setting's bad
because sometimes teachers are 

1476
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:34,000
bad. 
Yeah. 

1477
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,480
That that OK, Does that mean 
setting's bad? 

1478
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:38,760
No. 
Does that mean university's bad 

1479
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,640
because sometimes when people 
finish university as bad 

1480
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:41,560
teachers? 
No. 

1481
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:43,120
It's just a matter of. 
Fact. 

1482
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,560
I reckon people's arguments have
generally can be summarised over

1483
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,440
over the years of if you've got 
the bad teacher, it's better for

1484
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,040
them to be in a mixed ability 
set than a than a than a than a 

1485
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:52,000
than a set set. 
Why? 

1486
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,200
I think that's what people think
because because at least in the 

1487
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,600
mix of set, then if you're if 
you're doing setting badly 

1488
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,200
because you've narrowed the 
curriculum, you've made really 

1489
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:00,280
bad assumptions about the 
children. 

1490
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:01,600
You've narrowed it so much. 
They're not, you're not even 

1491
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,520
giving them a chance to excel in
areas like maybe could have 

1492
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,280
excelled in, right. 
But in the mixed ability set by 

1493
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,000
design, you're forced to open 
that, open that gap anyway. 

1494
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,440
There's fluidity built in with 
within the class from them. 

1495
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:13,480
And those children that would 
have been put in this horrible 

1496
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,200
ceiling before by design are now
by design, accidentally. 

1497
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:18,920
The teachers know it because 
they're not a good teacher 

1498
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:20,440
accidentally. 
If there's a bit more fluidity 

1499
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:22,760
and they can, they can access 
some stuff that they that they 

1500
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,440
can actually do that maybe you 
wouldn't have thought they could

1501
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,600
do if you were based on 
presumptions. 

1502
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:27,600
I think that's like the core 
essence of this. 

1503
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:31,800
Potentially that is that is 
still though different that that

1504
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:33,480
person you're saying is not a 
great teacher is still doing 

1505
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:35,640
different teaching styles 
because in the mixed ability 

1506
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:36,960
they're planning for different 
abilities. 

1507
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:38,960
Yeah, I still think within a set
you should be planning for 

1508
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:40,920
different abilities as well. 
Yeah, it's still, it's still a 

1509
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,240
shortcoming of of, of of looking
a set to something different. 

1510
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,520
It's still a shortcoming. 
There, but I can see why if you 

1511
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:48,400
know, if you're catering to the 
lowest common denominator of 

1512
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,240
teaching ability, I can see why 
people land on the idea of if 

1513
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:53,520
we're playing it safe. 
I I got mixed ability on sets. 

1514
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:55,320
I really, yeah. 
I mean, I really disagree 

1515
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:58,440
because I I, I fundamentally 
think that if you make, if 

1516
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:00,360
you're going to make mixed 
ability work, you need the best 

1517
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,360
teachers. 
I think it's the yeah, yeah, No,

1518
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,440
I think, I think it's. 
The funny enough, I also think 

1519
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:05,840
that, but I do think that's what
people think. 

1520
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,040
Yeah, potentially and and let's 
let's let's let's get on then I 

1521
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,280
make because of this episode's 
really getting on and that when 

1522
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:12,840
mom and me and we planned out 
loads more. 

1523
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:14,640
But I think we just need to wrap
it up with this next section 

1524
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,120
because I really want to talk 
about reality. 

1525
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,560
That's kind of what this was. 
That's what I was leading into 

1526
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,320
of that last bit. 
The reality, we can sit here and

1527
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,520
talk about pedagogical 
approaches and ideologies all 

1528
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:25,520
day long. 
And at the end of the day, the, 

1529
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:27,760
the hilarious pointless 
conclusion is if you're a really

1530
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,200
good teacher, it doesn't matter.
That's the conclusion really. 

1531
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:32,560
Oh, if you're a really good 
teacher, none of these, none of 

1532
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,960
these things even come into 
effect anyway. 

1533
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:36,680
It's like, OK, well, the 
research says that not 

1534
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:37,520
everyone's a good teacher, 
though. 

1535
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,560
That's why they found these 
things exist in the 1st place, 

1536
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,440
because a chunk of teachers are 
doing setting badly or are doing

1537
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:43,920
mixed ability. 
Right, right, right, right. 

1538
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,120
So the, the reality I want, I 
want to get into now is the 

1539
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,320
manageability of these two 
systems. 

1540
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,920
And this was a huge factor for, 
for me personally as to why I 

1541
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,520
would always err on the side of 
let's see if we can make setting

1542
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,480
work because the workload is 
greatly reduced, greatly 

1543
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:01,120
reduced. 
Like you just said, that 

1544
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:05,160
teacher, if we're going to the 
lowest common denominator and we

1545
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:06,920
say, OK, we'll just put them in 
a mixed ability because at least

1546
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:08,600
the children then have got 
accidentally, they've got 

1547
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:10,560
chances for a bit of mobility in
the tasks they do. 

1548
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:14,160
Well, not necessarily. 
Not necessarily, because it is 

1549
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,920
incredibly, incredibly hard to 
accurately and adequately 

1550
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,720
resource. 
Yeah, a lesson that's pitched at

1551
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:22,720
the entirety of the range of 
ability within your year. 

1552
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:23,600
Group. 
Well, what we're saying then, 

1553
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,480
because that would suggest to me
that mixed ability is more 

1554
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:27,520
workload. 
That's exactly that's exactly 

1555
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:28,760
what. 
I'm saying so, so, but I, I 

1556
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:30,960
always, I always thought mixed 
ability is less workload because

1557
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:32,880
you can share planning. 
So it depends on your setting. 

1558
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:34,360
That's interesting. 
I don't think there's, I don't 

1559
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,760
think there's, I don't, I don't 
think there's, I don't think 

1560
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:38,320
that one jumps out than the 
other. 

1561
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:39,400
So I'm really interested what 
you think. 

1562
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:42,000
I I don't see one as more or 
less workload in terms of 

1563
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,920
planning because I think for 
example, we have four form 

1564
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,680
entry. 
We did mixed ability classes in 

1565
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,720
year 3. 
We shared planning the whole 

1566
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:51,240
time. 
I did less math planning than 

1567
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,680
ever before because we were 
sharing that across the board. 

1568
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:55,560
Yeah, okay. 
Within the lesson, maybe it went

1569
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:57,680
more deeply. 
Maybe I had a different more 

1570
01:00:57,680 --> 01:00:59,640
routes for children to go to and
if they finished early they 

1571
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:01,960
could get on to something. 
But in general, I was planning 

1572
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:03,760
way less. 
And then when I did my sets in 

1573
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:06,560
year 4, I, I was planning every 
week because that was my 

1574
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:07,600
specific set. 
And then children need 

1575
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:09,000
something. 
So I had more workload when I 

1576
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,480
went to sets and less workload 
when I was in, when I was in 

1577
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:12,880
mixed. 
And, but I, I don't think it 

1578
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:13,960
automatically is one or the 
other. 

1579
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:15,360
No, you're absolutely right. 
And actually, it's a. 

1580
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:17,120
It's a good point to. 
To consider because obviously in

1581
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,080
a in a single form school that's
completely flipped again, it's 

1582
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:20,320
not it's not even flipped, is 
it? 

1583
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:21,360
It's the same workload no 
matter. 

1584
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:22,600
Well, it's. 
Not because now you're you're 

1585
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:24,360
planning, if you're planning for
a set I, I, I. 

1586
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:26,480
I think if you don't, you're 
think you're going right If you 

1587
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:28,600
were the only person planning I.
Think I think it's it's harder. 

1588
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:30,720
To planning, I think it's really
it's harder to plan from it's 

1589
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:32,120
but there are obviously 
situations that you's right 

1590
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:34,080
yeah, so but there are obviously
situations like you just said 

1591
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:35,800
where if you've got share 
planning and obviously. 

1592
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:37,600
Makes no You're right though, 
because, because I'm not being 

1593
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:39,160
funny. 
The the wider your breadth of 

1594
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:41,920
children, the more you feel like
you need to cater them, the more

1595
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:43,360
you feel like you need to. 
Plan, of course, it's just. 

1596
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:44,400
That so if you're not sharing, 
it's. 

1597
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:45,360
Right. 
That's the natural way of 

1598
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:46,240
things. 
But you're right though, there's

1599
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,080
obviously a scale there 
depending on the context of your

1600
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:49,680
school. 
But the other one that I think 

1601
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,640
is less of a scale and maybe you
can come back with this one is 

1602
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:54,960
the manageability in general. 
I don't think it makes a 

1603
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,480
difference between whether you 
are single form or form entry 

1604
01:01:57,480 --> 01:01:58,960
planning, sharing planning or 
not. 

1605
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:04,120
But how easy it is to manage and
how effectively you can manage a

1606
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:05,520
class. 
I think is where the scale is 

1607
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,520
right in terms of teaching 
ability is how effectively can 

1608
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:12,760
you manage a mixed ability class
in that hour that you're 

1609
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:14,240
teaching maths. 
I think that's where the scope 

1610
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,600
massively changes. 
There are two answers to this 

1611
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,960
managing in terms of what you're
preparing pedagogically in your 

1612
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:23,920
lesson. 
Managing in terms of behaviour, 

1613
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,080
right. 
In terms of behaviour. 

1614
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:28,040
A lot of people pushed back and 
said mixed ability is better for

1615
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:29,960
behaviour. 
And the reason is because again,

1616
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:31,720
if you just think about children
who are more reluctant 

1617
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,160
mathematicians, if they're all 
in one room, they're all 

1618
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:35,480
bouncing off each other. 
They don't want to do what 

1619
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:37,320
they're doing. 
It can be harder to harder to 

1620
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,480
cultivate that that need. 
That's what a lot of people said

1621
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:41,480
on the real. 
I've just found I've not found 

1622
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:43,280
that myself personally, but I'm 
not saying that doesn't happen. 

1623
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:45,040
No, absolutely I can understand 
it completely. 

1624
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,480
Whereas when you're talking 
about managing it in terms of 

1625
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:51,640
just simply being able to 
produce the less and, and like 

1626
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:56,240
literally in the lesson, getting
through adding two numbers 

1627
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,240
together with exchanging with 
that breadth of, of ability in 

1628
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:03,320
your class or attainment, sorry,
is obviously harder than if it's

1629
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:04,680
set. 
And when they're set, there's, 

1630
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,400
there's still a breadth of 
ability there, but it's smaller.

1631
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:10,080
And the the simple way I can 
just say to someone that that's 

1632
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,200
obviously true is that if you 
then went for your mixed ability

1633
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,520
year five class, if I said to 
you, now you've got a mixed with

1634
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:18,600
year 4, you gotta have a year 
4-5 mixed class, which happens 

1635
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,360
up and down the country. 
Is that is that going to be 

1636
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:25,480
easier, the same or harder to 
manage the massively increased 

1637
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:26,560
pull of ability in your 
classroom? 

1638
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:30,280
It's obviously harder. 
Of course, let's go one step 

1639
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:31,760
further. 
The whole of key stage 2IN1 

1640
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:35,080
classroom doing something, is 
that easier, the same or harder?

1641
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,880
Very clearly harder. 
Why do we pretend that going one

1642
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:42,120
step more granular within a year
group is suddenly the end of the

1643
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,080
world and makes no difference? 
It's stupid, it's bad, it's all 

1644
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:46,600
for it's violence. 
Is it violence to have year 4 

1645
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:47,760
and five different? 
Yeah. 

1646
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:53,280
No, it's complete nonsense. 
Of course, of course it's harder

1647
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:58,320
to manage a mixed ability with a
much wider range of children in 

1648
01:03:58,320 --> 01:03:59,960
the. 
Class I've taught, I had one 

1649
01:03:59,960 --> 01:04:02,160
year of my career where I taught
in A1 form school when I was in 

1650
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:04,480
year 6 and it was a mixed 
ability class obviously, because

1651
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,160
it's one form. 
And I can tell you right now 

1652
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:12,080
that the challenges I faced and 
the imposter syndromes I got 

1653
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,840
sometimes where I've where it 
because I found it so 

1654
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:19,000
unbelievably difficult to cater 
adequately as I wanted to cater 

1655
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:20,960
for all of the needs in that 
child for every single mouse 

1656
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,400
doesn't at all times. 
And and it just got to the point

1657
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:26,520
I was like, Oh, I can't. 
You get to the point where you 

1658
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:28,640
realise, oh, of course I can't. 
That's why sex exist. 

1659
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,760
Because if I did, if I had half 
of these children and it was the

1660
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:35,080
lowest attainers, I would 
obviously tailor my input 

1661
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:37,040
differently to how I'm doing it 
right now and it would be better

1662
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:39,200
for them. 
Yeah, so I've got, so it's to 

1663
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,400
push back there because my, my 
gut instinct again, I'm going to

1664
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:43,720
just stick to this because we've
definitely veered more towards, 

1665
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:45,200
we're going to be very neutral 
in the middle. 

1666
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:47,160
Well, you obviously prefer sets.
We're geared towards sets. 

1667
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:48,560
You basically said you can't do 
it. 

1668
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:50,440
I'm going to push back and say 
you obviously can. 

1669
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:52,760
There are lots of schools out 
there, lots of people listening 

1670
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:54,880
right now who are teachers who 
are advocate for mixed ability, 

1671
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,360
who maybe even are advocates, 
but have done it themselves for 

1672
01:04:57,360 --> 01:04:59,200
years and they see that 
obviously it can work. 

1673
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,400
So I just want to just make this
really clear to people and just 

1674
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:03,480
get your input. 
Obviously can, right? 

1675
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:04,800
Yeah. 
But I felt like I couldn't in 

1676
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,040
that moment because that, 
because it was so hard to manage

1677
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,160
is what I'm trying to say. 
I felt like I couldn't manage, 

1678
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:10,200
which was the overall point 
here. 

1679
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:13,440
I felt like I couldn't manage 
keeping on top of everything in 

1680
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:15,640
that classroom. 
It took a lot more energy and a 

1681
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:17,480
lot more time and it did 
ultimately impact my workload 

1682
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,120
and stress. 
And I think that's the reality 

1683
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:22,160
that I want to talk about. 
I'm not saying you can't make 

1684
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:23,880
mixed ability work. 
There are probably a lot of 

1685
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,360
better teachers out there than 
me who in that situation would 

1686
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:28,080
have been, come on you novice 
out of the way. 

1687
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:31,000
I know exactly how to manage the
situation and done a phenomenal 

1688
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,720
job. 
But for me as a pretty good 

1689
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:37,640
maths teacher, I looked at that 
situation and thought if I could

1690
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:40,360
just split this class in half, I
would get more out of every 

1691
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,560
single child here. 
And I just would. 

1692
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:46,680
And that is the reality for me. 
And honestly a huge percentage 

1693
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:48,600
of teachers. 
And I can't get over that fact. 

1694
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:50,840
And it is the one thing to me 
whenever this argument comes 

1695
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:53,480
down, I'm always like, I always 
on the side of streaming because

1696
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,400
I'm like, do you know what? 
Not everyone is the top 1% of 

1697
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,000
teachers. 
They're just not like by 

1698
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,320
definition as I work. 
So there are, there are going to

1699
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:03,240
be hundreds of thousands of 
teachers who I will struggle 

1700
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:05,600
equally like I do and actually 
not do a very good job. 

1701
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,000
No one wants to say that but not
do a very good job for any of 

1702
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:09,400
the children in the class 
because it was too hard to. 

1703
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:12,800
Manage and that's why earlier I 
disagreed when I said that going

1704
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,040
mixed ability means that your 
weaker teachers are fine. 

1705
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:16,960
No, I think they flounder. 
It's harder. 

1706
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:19,040
Yeah, it's much harder, I think.
I think, I think if it's if it's

1707
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:22,280
set, if it's a set situation, it
just it just helps them because 

1708
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,040
it just shrinks it. 
That's that's what I think. 

1709
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:24,720
And I think that's. 
True. 

1710
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:26,560
And no one likes to hear that. 
People don't like to hear that 

1711
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:28,960
because it's accepting. 
It's accepting realities that 

1712
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:31,920
not every teacher is is an 
incredible mathematician, or 

1713
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:33,880
incredible. 
I'm sorry, you know, I'm, I'm 

1714
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:34,680
sorry. 
Practitioner. 

1715
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:37,880
Have you met? 
I trained with someone who was 

1716
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:41,000
teaching a year two class who 
was about to do a lesson on time

1717
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:43,320
and said to me before they 
struggle with quarter past. 

1718
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:48,120
No, no, no, I'm sorry because 
this is true. 

1719
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:50,680
This is real. 
Yeah, it's awful. 

1720
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,480
And let's be honest, we have 
both taught in lots of schools 

1721
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:56,640
and met lots of teachers who 
say, oh, I could never do year 

1722
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:58,360
six. 
Yeah, I could never. 

1723
01:06:58,360 --> 01:06:59,960
I could never teach your six. 
It's too tricky. 

1724
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:02,160
I'm not going to say anything 
more about that. 

1725
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:03,520
I'll let you think what you 
think about that. 

1726
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:06,200
But it does show there's 
obviously a massive breadth of 

1727
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:08,920
teachers abilities across all of
the subjects and in general, 

1728
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:10,840
their pedagogy, their 
practitioner ability. 

1729
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:16,120
It's a very complex job, so to 
go with the ideology that works 

1730
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:20,160
when everyone is the best 
practitioner in the world, to me

1731
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,520
is a really, really annoying 
argument that has pissed me off 

1732
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:24,680
over the last 10 years. 
Because I'm like, yeah, but can 

1733
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:26,480
we stop ignoring the fact that 
we're not, though? 

1734
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:29,160
Can we stop ignoring the fact 
that most teachers actually 

1735
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:30,480
aren't this good? 
It's right. 

1736
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:32,160
We've got a red sheet. 
We've got a red sheet, red on 

1737
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:32,880
the green. 
It's fine. 

1738
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:34,320
That's a differentiation. 
It's all good. 

1739
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:35,000
It's all good. 
It's fine. 

1740
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:37,080
We've got differentiation. 
We've got three different tasks.

1741
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,400
You can do the same input. 
Everyone's going to, you know. 

1742
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,840
Hey, then I've always said it. 
A rising tide raises all boats. 

1743
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:44,720
Say that again. 
I thought it might be. 

1744
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:46,720
You're so right. 
The, the line between reality, 

1745
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,960
it is it, it seems distorted. 
And, and, and just to, just to 

1746
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:53,520
make this point, this rounding 
off point here, OK, it's, it's 

1747
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:57,800
as straightforward as this. 
People who've spent 10 years 

1748
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:00,960
telling me that setting is 
inherently bad and awful and 

1749
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:04,200
terrible for the kids. 
I just hope that what this does 

1750
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,880
is make them realise that 
they're being over the top. 

1751
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:09,440
They're on a bit of a high 
horse. 

1752
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:12,520
It's completely acceptable to 
set because children can get 

1753
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:15,280
really good outcomes from it and
there are loads of other things 

1754
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:16,960
that you should be looking at 
first. 

1755
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:19,439
If you're worried about your 
school's outcomes in maths, 

1756
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:22,560
whether you do mixed ability or 
setting should probably be about

1757
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:25,120
5th on the list of what you want
to actually impact the quality 

1758
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:26,600
of teaching. 
I I just can't go over the 

1759
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:30,240
quality of teaching the actual 
the actual what is going on in 

1760
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:32,279
your lesson, how adaptive you 
are, whether you're meeting the 

1761
01:08:32,279 --> 01:08:34,439
needs of the children is so much
more important than 

1762
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:36,600
performative. 
If you do mixed ability and it's

1763
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,960
red, red amber green and oh look
I've got a table over there for 

1764
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:42,080
Deans and the children can just 
go and get the Deans if they 

1765
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:44,359
want to get them performative 
nonsense. 

1766
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,000
Children even need support or 
they don't yeah, don't just 

1767
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:49,600
leave it up to them to Oh yeah, 
well I've got the isn't this you

1768
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:50,920
walk into my classroom. 
It's fantastic. 

1769
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:52,160
There's children have all 
abilities here. 

1770
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:53,600
Isn't this so inclusive and 
amazing? 

1771
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:55,520
And and I've got all of the 
manipulatives out and the 

1772
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:56,920
children. 
There's there's three different 

1773
01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:58,720
tasks and that that people 
working with a teaching 

1774
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:00,560
assistant and I'm working with 
this group and they're on a red 

1775
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,880
ambushy and they're a green 
sheet performative nonsense. 

1776
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:05,920
It can look good. 
This is what I'm saying. 

1777
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:08,680
It can be really good. 
It's when it's performative. 

1778
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:10,000
I'm talking about when it's 
performative. 

1779
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:12,560
So don't turn around and say to 
me what I do isn't performative 

1780
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:13,520
good. 
Thank fantastic. 

1781
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:16,160
You're probably doing mixed 
ability really well, but it can 

1782
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:19,439
so easily slip into just being 
performative to look like we're 

1783
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:21,840
being inclusive, to look like 
we're helping everyone at once. 

1784
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:23,880
And isn't this so much better 
than setting? 

1785
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:26,200
The answer is, it's not always 
no. 

1786
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:27,399
I agree. 
I agree. 

1787
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:31,200
And yeah, not there isn't one, 
but I was trying to think that 

1788
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:33,560
if I had the perfect school for 
the perfect situation, I have 

1789
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:35,680
the best, I've got the best ten 
teachers in the whole country 

1790
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,319
and they can share planning and 
workloads already managed. 

1791
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,080
I probably would go down the 
route of let's let's let's go 

1792
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:43,240
down mixed stability because I 
think there are clear benefits 

1793
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:44,399
to it. 
We've talked, we've dismantled a

1794
01:09:44,399 --> 01:09:46,479
lot of them, but there are still
clear benefits to mixed 

1795
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:47,920
stability. 
I swear I wouldn't. 

1796
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:50,240
Would you not? 
No, all I would say is let's 

1797
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:51,600
look at the children. 
True. 

1798
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:54,720
Yeah, just go to the children. 
I think I'd go to that and my 

1799
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:57,640
baseline. 
I I think the best practise is 

1800
01:09:57,640 --> 01:09:59,160
to not have a baseline. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

1801
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:00,880
It's like I need fantastic 
teachers and you know, this 

1802
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:02,080
cool, let's see what the kids 
need. 

1803
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:05,720
Oh, I think it seems, and this 
is what I've done my whole 

1804
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:08,520
career, 80% of the time. 
It turned out that I thought the

1805
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:10,360
best thing for children would be
would be setting. 

1806
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:12,480
I don't think that would change.
I don't think that would change 

1807
01:10:12,480 --> 01:10:13,360
to the best teacher in the 
world. 

1808
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:14,480
I think I would still look at 
the children. 

1809
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:17,040
I'd still go amazing, we've got 
the best teacher in the world, 

1810
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:19,640
Fantastic on the whole for this 
cohort. 

1811
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:23,280
Actually, let's set them and it 
might be set slightly different 

1812
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:25,440
to last year, set different next
year, mixed ability one year. 

1813
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:30,440
In general though, I think we 
can really do setting well in a 

1814
01:10:30,440 --> 01:10:32,120
way that doesn't affect 
confidence, that improves 

1815
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:34,320
outcomes for everyone. 
Does it increase a gap? 

1816
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:36,600
Maybe, but that gap is making 
everyone better. 

1817
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:38,440
Definitely. 
Let me change what I said then 

1818
01:10:38,440 --> 01:10:39,720
because you're absolutely right.
It is. 

1819
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:41,120
It is just about the context of 
the cohort. 

1820
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:45,680
What I really truly meant there 
was if I had the best school in 

1821
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,760
the world, the best teachers 
ever, I would be significantly 

1822
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:52,080
more likely to be considering 
mixed stability then I would be 

1823
01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:53,680
streaming. 
And even though still it's down 

1824
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,720
to the children, everything we 
just said about the reality and 

1825
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:58,960
the workload and the 
manageability to me does 

1826
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,320
actually play a part in my mind 
as to whether I even want to 

1827
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:03,840
explore this concept or not. 
Because I, there is, there are 

1828
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:06,680
realities where I think where I 
imagine I could be in a school 

1829
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:09,240
where I think mixed ability 
could work, You know, in this 

1830
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:13,680
situation, if I had the best, 
most amazing practises in the 

1831
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:17,360
world, the top ten teachers. 
But in this situation right now,

1832
01:11:17,480 --> 01:11:20,480
I actually think, given all 
circumstances and reality of 

1833
01:11:20,480 --> 01:11:23,240
the, the ability of the teachers
and the system and the, the 

1834
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:25,640
situation I've got, I think 
streaming is going to be the 

1835
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,520
better outcome though, even 
though ideologically maybe mixed

1836
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,040
ability could be better. 
Reality, sometimes Trump's the 

1837
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:32,120
ideologies, is what I'm trying 
to. 

1838
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:35,360
Say almost always. 
Yeah, that's real because one's 

1839
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:37,960
actually real. 
Yeah. 

1840
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:39,320
Be really interesting. 
I think in the future, what 

1841
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:42,960
would be great is to get some 
people maybe to chat to Joe 

1842
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:45,400
Dennis, long time, who maybe, 
you know, really, really 

1843
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:47,120
strongly for mixed. 
Yeah. 

1844
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:48,160
Yeah, and that's why we're 
wrong. 

1845
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:50,000
And have an argument. 
Yeah, don't genuinely like. 

1846
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:52,800
I mean, like, I mean, a debate, 
That's the word, yeah. 

1847
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:54,800
The debate the the polite 
version of an argument. 

1848
01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:57,480
Yeah, based on your, the real 
you did the other day, I can 

1849
01:11:57,480 --> 01:11:59,800
already tell that there's raffle
favours and there will be people

1850
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:02,160
who vehemently disagree, like 
absolutely. 

1851
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:03,160
And there'll be something we've 
missed. 

1852
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:05,200
There will be there. 
They'll just be a perspective we

1853
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:07,280
only, you know, we explored like
a good 10 perspectives there, 

1854
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:10,160
but there will be more that we 
didn't maybe take into account 

1855
01:12:10,440 --> 01:12:12,560
and someone will tell us why 
we're absolutely, completely 

1856
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,440
wrong and it'll be interesting. 
My favourite thing was when 

1857
01:12:14,480 --> 01:12:17,560
someone commented on Facebook 
and said that I'd completely 

1858
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:20,160
misinterpreted it and I should 
go and sit on the low ability 

1859
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:22,080
class low ability table for 
teachers. 

1860
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:28,480
I mean, that was me. 
Yeah, I was like, OK, it sounds 

1861
01:12:28,480 --> 01:12:29,880
like you're the. 
We found a high horse. 

1862
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:32,080
Everyone. 
We found a high horse. 

1863
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:34,560
Here they are. 
This is like I did a video 

1864
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:36,760
saying both were OK. 
Yeah, and you and you're an 

1865
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:38,720
idiot user. 
Oh, thank you. 

1866
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:41,320
I'm sure you help your child's 
confidence all the time in your 

1867
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:43,680
mixed ability classes. 
Anyway, let's finish up there. 

1868
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:45,560
Please, guys, share this with 
someone you think might find 

1869
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:46,440
useful. 
Send it to someone who 

1870
01:12:46,440 --> 01:12:49,280
absolutely loves mixed ability 
because they might think oh they

1871
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:51,400
might get annoyed. 
Who knows, maybe don't, because 

1872
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:52,920
they might not rate US five 
stars, but you will. 

1873
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:54,920
Please do it right now guys, see
you next time. 

1874
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:55,840
Long old episode, bye.