Hello everyone, Michael bad to another episode of Teacher
repeat. My name is Dylan and my name is
Hayden, and today we're going to be going through those all Timer
1 liners from people who just hate teachers.
Am I going to? Is this going to boil my blood?
Maybe, but we're going to do it in a fun way where we read out
what a typical teacher hater troll might say, OK, take the
piss out of them. Yeah.
And why it's funny. Yeah.
And then actually try and dismantle it and why it's just
embedded in nonsense because you probably can think of a few
already. Can we can we rate them on how
annoying they actually are as well?
Yeah, OK, let's do that. Just like just how how, Yeah.
How boiled your blood gets when you actually hear it.
In real life, what's the scale like?
Not. Not to boil not.
Not 100, not 100, not 100, Julie.
Not to 1000. Not a mathematician, that's.
Really precise. That's good, because then we.
Yeah, we. Can on a scale of naughty to
1000? And we've got about 1000 things
here. So we can, No, we've got about
10, OK. So someone can count as we go
through, All right. Yeah.
So they have to be all multiples of of 100.
Yeah. Because.
There's 1000. So what we'll do is we'll read
out each one. We'll start with that rating
then yeah, OK, I've got reaction, all that, and then
like you said, we'll unpick it. So the first one, those who can
do, those who can't teach. Look my my got guttural reaction
to this is on the scale of nought to 1000, this is honestly
like 112. Honestly like 112 roughly
people. Will take nothing.
That's so crazy girl. I was thinking 100.
And 11 genuinely, yeah, it doesn't.
It doesn't actually annoy me that much.
No, because I just it maybe it's because I'm this is true.
I can't do. That's why I I can't teach.
That's why I quit. Oh man, no, the reason it
doesn't get me up is because it's so embedded in like I heard
that my whole life. Like when I hear that now, I
just think it's banter. It's not even banter though,
because some people mean it. Like it's just, it's nothing.
It's not, it's not even funny. Like I'm just like it's nothing
to me because it's just, it's, it's coming from a place of
complete lack of understanding about what teaching is like
those who can't do teachers. Like what do you think?
Do you think we don't do? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, like I got you there. You can't do so you must teach.
What do you think we do? I think, I think it stems from
more like secondary school subject specialists where we go,
ohh, you couldn't do you couldn't do your job in history,
so, so you gotta teach you, haven't you?
You weren't a very good historian.
Well, won't getting the stonks in on the history job.
Yeah, yeah. And, and, and I always hear
people say this, and I'd love if anyone here listening is a
secondary school business studies because that always
happens. Yeah, always happens.
Someone else be sat in business study, there'll be some bro
podcaster who's turned out to have some kind of success in in
wealth and business, etcetera, who then goes on and was like,
yeah, when I was at school, my business studies tutor, He he
never had a business of his own. Why was he teaching business
studies? I was like, OK, so, so, so
you're, you're kind of logic here is that no one should ever
be a business studies teacher because if they're already good
at it, they wouldn't be doing it.
So you wouldn't have had a business studies sense like what
you've caught. Of course you need some people
to teach some stuff. It it just it seems like
nonsense to me. Like my food tech teacher never
had a restaurant which means they can't possibly teach me how
to cook. It doesn't really make.
Sense yeah, it's it's hard because there is some kind of
like the analogy is probably more if your business teachers
are like if you're if you're a business studies teacher has
never had them and ran a business like I do think there
is some point to that. Well, in comparison to a
business studies teacher who maybe had some experience in
business. Before, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Because like to to me it's not
equivalent to a food tech teacher having a restaurant.
Yeah, to me that's equivalent to a food tech teacher not knowing
how to bake a a cake. Yeah, sure.
Like it's a very fundamental level.
And I'd be like, well, yeah, actually, as a food tech
teacher, you should know how to make an omelette because you're
teaching kids how to make. I I don't think the comparison
you're making is bad at all because we literally put people
on a pedestal who come into primary school teaching who have
had a career before, no? No, no, I'm being, no, I'm being
really specific about what they are specialist in teaching.
Yeah, there is a certain level of what they have to have done
in that field, I think to be a suitable teacher.
So I'm not talking about going to primary UK.
You were, you were a chartered surveyor, then you're going to
primary school. That's not what I'm talking
about. I'm talking specifically about
if you're a food tech teacher, you should know a basic level
of, of, of how to cook food. Sure, right.
If you're a maths teacher, you should obviously know a certain
level how to do maths, right. And if for any subject, there
should be a certain level that that you're at and for business
studies like it, it seems to genuinely fair enough that to
have been involved in them and run some kind of business or
done something seems to be like a fair like, OK, I'll throw it
to you. Do you think a business studies
teacher can never ever have ran a business in their life and
still teach it well? Yeah, yeah.
That's the thing. That's right.
That's where I think it falls down a little bit.
I don't think the analogy for business studies is any
different from any other subject, genuinely.
So so you so you think that a food tech teacher can never have
cooked an omelette before and still be a food tech teacher
because that then the analogy is not falling apart?
No, there's a basic level of way you need to.
Be a basic level. Yeah, so your basic level is
lower than having. That's it.
I don't think the basic level is you have to run a business fine.
I think you can conceptually understand how a business works
and and teach business studies to 14 year olds.
So if you just. Conceptually know how to make an
omelette, but you've never actually done one before.
You can teach kids how to make. No, I think the bar's different
for that one. OK.
I mean, I do think, I do think so.
I think the bar probably is different for for every single
one. I just don't think business is
like different. I don't think whatever the bar
is for food tech, I don't think it's like proportionally that
different to whatever the bar is for business.
Do you know what I mean? I.
Just think. So what's the equivalent of
cooking and knowing how to to make?
OK, cooking is like, OK you you can conceptually understand
cooking what you want. You do have to have at least
done it once so that you can model it to the kids.
Correct. Why is that not the same for
business? Because I don't think you need
to have run a business like that's that's a that's a shoot.
So you. Don't need to have made.
Cooking a OK, cooking an omelette is significantly,
significantly simpler than setting up and running a
business. Yeah, Like, they're not the
same. They're not equivalent.
Yeah, I don't know. The restaurant thing is.
No, no it's not. The the restaurant thing is the
same. They have a business is quite
easy. Not really.
Like it's easy to do OK, OK, it's easy to go on comedy's
house and put in a random name and buy a company name.
But like actually running a business is not the.
Same as cooking, I think. The restaurant thing is probably
was was closer to the analysis. No, because the restaurant is a
business that's the same. That's not to do with a food
tech thing. You're missing my analogy here.
The exact thing that qualifies you to do that job as a 50.
Nothing to do running a restaurant.
Here's a better analogy then. Cooking is what?
You have to have been a chef to be a food tech teacher at some
point in your career? Yeah, I don't think that's true.
Fair. I think you can have just done
some cooking at home. Yeah, as long as just a business
home. Yeah, literally.
So running a small business, maybe that, but not even that.
You didn't need to run a small business, right.
You could watch some videos. You don't.
You could talk to your mates on business.
It's different. I'm just, I'm trying to get,
you're trying to find an equivalence here.
Yeah, Yeah. And you're saying, yeah, just
cook at home. So I'm saying yeah, run a
business from home. Yeah, yeah.
But OK. In the same way of math, it's
like you have to know how to do the equation before you do it.
You don't have to have any genuinely any actual role in a
in a like a certified you. Need to know how to do them and
understand the process. Yeah, you need to.
And do it and be able to do. It, yeah, but I think there's
some things. You can solve.
The problem some things you can. You can understand how to do
them completely, conceptually, Absolutely.
That's it. But as a teacher, do you not
think the bar is that you should be able to do them?
And it's not just conceptual. You should be able to do them,
but I think you can prove that conceptually for some things.
OK, so so it sounds like you have a different bar genuinely
for all the other subjects apart from like business studies?
No, no, no, a little bit because.
With history, for example, right, if, if you're a history
teacher, you should be able to look at lots of different
sources, compile an argument, write an essay or a
dissertation. Yeah, you should be able to do
that. You should be able to not, not
just conceptually. You don't have to have done it.
No, I think you do have to have done it.
If you're a history teacher, you have to have done that yourself
And and walked the walk before you expect children who are
younger than you to do the same thing.
Yeah, of course you do. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, you definitely
have to. Of course you do.
Like if if my if I went into school, my history teacher
hadn't written a dissertation on a history degree or or had had
not done any writing themselves or any actual proof of
understanding sources, citing them, putting them into an
argument, and writing long long essays, I'd say you shouldn't be
a history. Teacher, OK, so they'll do that
in the degree. So that's fine, you'll be fine.
OK. But do you think they have to
have out in the field, have experience of done that as well?
Or do you think doing it in a degree like a business person
would, they'll do a business degree to teach business.
Do not think that the degree gives them the suitable level of
experience of of of the doing. Sure.
But I right, but in the in the degree of doing, but if you did
business studies as a degree, you've done the business, you
would have done stuff that is equivalent to running a
business. You would have.
You would have learned everything you need to learn
about business itself and done it.
Good, that's fine, you get it. But.
They have done it then, so they have done it, yeah.
Yeah, because we've, I think the, I think it was fair to
establish that you have to have had the degree to teach the
subject anyway because that's just not that's.
Not true at the minute. Is it not?
No, that's the whole point In secondary school, so many
teachers, they're not got a specialist in their subject.
Yes. Bat around.
So. So my point here is there just
has to be minimum. And again, look, there are loads
for the business studies teacher listening right now.
They're like, what? I've never run a business.
Yeah. Are you sure you can be great at
your job, Right. Because you've gone through the
qualifications and the levels and you've done it.
You've still done it. Yeah.
You've still done the equivalent of yeah, OK, Running a business
means you have to do XYZ. And I'm pretty sure on your
business studies degree you would have learned about XYZ and
written essays about it and done it.
So let's go all the way back then, because my whole point of
this was business studies is not different to other subjects.
Yeah. So all that food tech then like
what? What?
What do you, what's the equivalent?
You don't do a degree in food tech.
Well, I think there is some sort of qualification.
A lot of people go to college. I know my sister went to college
and got qualification cooking and they and they did and they
did practical, practical cooking because that was part of that.
So what I was trying to say was the bar is different for each
one in terms of the things you might do.
Like it looks different, but like in reality, like you don't
like. For cooking, you go and do your
degree, you do cooking. So I'm for business.
You should do the business stuff.
Yeah, but you'll get it through your degrees.
But you should still do it. Business studies don't have to
put on a pedestal of like, no, I never said that you have to have
now run a business. You did.
Yeah, you have to now run a business yourself.
No, none of these jobs you need to.
It's good if you have. Yeah, it's good.
But you don't need to have been a professional chef.
You don't need to have been a historian working for some
historian. I don't know the historical
charter. You know, you can like the the
baseline qualification for that role is is suitable.
And I completely it's a different argument to say that
sometimes teachers are put into roles where they don't have that
qualification. That's just across the board, I
think, a problem. Yeah.
No, no, no. But what I was not saying, I was
not making the point that the the qualification for the job is
not enough, right? I was.
The point here is I'm saying people do jobs without that
qualification. So I'm just making it a neutral
thing. Now whether you've done the
qualification or not, there are certain things I think you have
to have at at a certain level to be a teacher in that exact as a
specialist in. Degree, school, and that
comparatively. Right.
And I'm just saying I just, I don't think they are like, I
just think that's what I'm saying like in terms of business
studies, whether you've done the degree or not, there has to be a
certain level where you have done the things you're preaching
about. You have literally done them and
understood them and and practised them.
And that's why if you haven't got, of course, if you do a
history degree, you've done all the stuff I said you need to do.
But if you haven't, I think you have to be able to prove that
you can do that before you're you're good enough to be a
history teacher. So that's why I was 112.
Yeah, sorry, back to the episode.
I forgot A roll of podcast those.
Yeah. So those who can do.
Yeah, those who can't go and get a business degree teach
business. I've got nothing against by the
way, I'm just going to say right now this is great, but I'm just
saying that that's kind of where it comes from.
That's the ultimate version is I see a lot of business, which is
yeah, to be fair, that's that's in particular 1 and I and I
think that there's a reason why it's that one in particular,
because if you know how to run a really like, you know, if you
know, yeah, yeah, yeah, same thing.
It makes it one. You say.
It's like, yeah, it. And let me be really clear now
as well, it is a different role. And that's why we still need
teachers to do it, right? Completely, completely.
Because you can still learn about something without being
excelling in that role. Yeah.
And that's where it comes from. It's like, well, if you were the
best at that, you wouldn't be teaching it.
That's true. If you were the best at running
a business, you wouldn't be doing business studies.
Yeah. If you were the best at teaching
cooking, you wouldn't be teaching it in a secondary
school, you'd be. You'd be off that.
You'd be off teaching chefs how to cook.
Yeah, Yeah, right. If you weren't the best
mathematician, you wouldn't be in a secondary school teaching
maths. You'd be off applying your maths
to something. Yeah.
So. So there is a semblance of truth
here. I just think it completely
disregards the whole profession. That's really important that we
need. And as a teacher myself, that's
why I just like it doesn't even know it.
Just ignore it. I'm just like, yeah, yeah,
you're an idiot. They're different things.
Exactly that, 100% I, I think that's really true.
The semblance of understanding why that, why that analogy came
about. But ultimately, like, some
people also just want to teach. Yeah.
And it's like, and to completely, like, make them feel
like crap over this. It's just so like some people
legitimately are like, I want to go and get this degree because I
really want to be a teacher and I like this subject.
I'm going to marry them together.
And I want to teach that subject to kids.
And like, that's completely legitimate.
Like we shouldn't just some. Of my favourite teachers were my
food tech teachers and I'd never dream of even questioning them
for a second because they were with young children teaching
them how to cook, which is what's an important life skill.
Yeah, it's vital. Well, you're, if you're already
good, you'd be in the Michelin star restaurant teaching the
chefs how to do it. But they're not.
They're here because it's helpful, so.
And, and, and also, I don't even want to do that.
Yeah, exactly. Some people it's legitimate as
well to be like, yeah, I probably, it'd be, it would
actually be legitimate for someone to be in a position
where it's like they are actually qualified enough to do
that and they just don't want to do it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And be like, that's not even
unheard of. Like you could be good enough to
go and work that, but I don't want to.
It's a horrendous environment. I'd rather just be here
completely. Anyway, next one ready.
Go on. I'll do it.
I pay your salary, so I have control and my point of view is
important. And I pay your bloody salary.
So you listen to me, Mr I pay your bloody salary.
Like a 300 for me is it? I find it a little bit
triggering when it comes to the context of all of the.
Stuff you just said. I think just saying I pay your
salary is like is like. Mine's mine's zero.
Yeah. But OK, the whole context of
this is that the people teaching so 703 for me. 703 yeah, really.
Why is it so high for you? Because it's, it's such a sense
of entitlement, as if everyone doesn't pay for everyone.
Yeah, as if for some reason, because it's from taxpayer
money, like. Oh, Now, therefore you're my
servant and you shall do exactly what I say.
No, I'm sorry. I'm the specialist.
Shut up. Doesn't matter where this comes
from. Sure.
Yeah, OK. You pay great.
I could just pretend that my mum pays for me and not you.
There you go. I could walk into a shop and
spend £300 and then tell the person exactly I pay your salary
because I contributed a tiny amount of that salary.
That's my point. That's exactly my point.
Because even in the private sector, yes, everyone pays
someone's salary. Yeah.
So your customers pay the customer's always, right?
Yeah, but I'm pretty sure in your own job as well, you get
annoyed when customers say that to nonsense.
Yeah, that's similar, isn't it? The customer was right.
And I pay your salary. That's the same part.
Well, I'm a paying customer here.
Sure. Why don't you necking?
No, because you are wrong. Still, I pay your salary.
What's your point? Because the only point they make
when they say I pay your salary is therefore you're below me.
Yeah, I pay your salary. So you better wound your necking
and listen to what I've got to say.
Because I pay your salary. There's no no one's saying this
going. I pay your salary.
That's brilliant. That's nice, isn't it?
They're only doing this as a way to try and belittle you.
Yeah. And put them on a pedestal above
you. So listen to me and then and and
then who says this to you if someone says it's you from an
insurance company? Well, yeah, I pay your salary,
mate. I've got house insurance and car
insurance and home insurance. Yeah, home and house insurance
double paying. But yeah, I pay your salary as
well. What's your point?
I'm paid to deliver a role as a specialist.
Shut up. Yeah, I'm not going to come into
your job and tell you how to do the insurance.
Probably you do Probably. If you're doing it really badly,
maybe I'll have an opinion, but I also don't know that much
about insurance, so I'm going to just leave it to you.
Yeah, it. Seems like a scammer, don't it?
Yeah, I'm going to pay insurance.
And if I ever want to take money out, you're going to put my
insurance up massively to cover the cost.
Oh, it's it sounds like I'm just paying you money every month.
Yeah. What we need to do is think of
comebacks for every single job that's in the same line as that.
I pay a salary that's a do we just need to have something?
Do you know what I mean? Have you always wanted to be a
scam artist to an insurance broker?
Don't really think that, by the way.
So please don't get annoyed. But like, I don't think it was.
I don't think people want to be a scam artist, but I think
insurance. Is no, I think they just enable
it through taking a salary from them and get get get paid in
Commission. Yeah, the more they RIP someone.
Off Well I think you enable left woke beta male teachers.
You'll love something that's coming up later.
Propaganda. You'll love one of those.
We'll go. Later in this.
All right, we'll stick around for that one.
We're not going to. Do it right now so in 10 months
you're hooked in. I pay salary, piss off.
Yeah, bet 9. Yeah, BET9700700. 3 isn't that
one? Then how do you feel about this
one? Go on, working 9:00 to 3:00 and
having every weekend off must be wow nice.
It's lovely, thank you. It's lovely.
And you pay it for me. Yeah, crazy.
You only work. For me, thanks for paying me.
I have to buddy work 8 till 5 and I don't get every weekend.
I don't get how many weeks holiday do you?
Get Wait a minute, it sounds like you would love teaching.
Yeah, yeah, come. Along my God's a reaction
working night to free and having every weekend off again.
Personally this doesn't annoy me anymore because I just think
it's just complete nonsense. To me this is like a 207 really.
It triggers me more. You know, I think that's like
500 in the middle, really. Maybe 501 go one side.
Yeah, 501. Closer to complete mental
breakdown. Yeah, yeah, I suppose because I
just, it really irritates me that someone can have such a
misunderstanding of the role of teaching and say it so
nonchalantly. And I was like, shut up.
I just want to say shut up, you know, what are you thick?
That's what I want to say to those people.
You can't because you've got to come rude.
I can't have the podcast, obviously.
To every single one of them. Of course.
Yeah.
Because you don't see them. Yeah.
Just come down much later. Exactly.
Feel like you're saying it to What are you going to do 9 till
3 every weekend off? Like, why are you making such a
presumption? Yeah.
And also like it shows how ignorant you are because
honestly, 10 seconds off just looking into this first of all
shows you that no one's even doing contact time 9 till three.
It's like half 8 till 3:15 anyway.
Oh, it's only 45 minutes I thought.
Yeah, it just goes to show you already wrong.
Even if it was just contact time that teachers did, which isn't
we can go into the whole thing. You're just already wrong.
And it anyone who says something like this doesn't actually care
about the truth. They they can't care about the
truth because it would be so easy to debunk what they're
saying as nonsense that if they haven't debunked it themselves,
they don't care and they don't want to know, which I think is
why I'm less triggered by it because I'm just like, oh, you
are just a complete moron. There is nothing we can do.
And when like what gets me as some, as you know, we've got
social media now. It's actually a Facebook
comment. By the way, we've got like
55,000 followers on Facebook. I don't go on Facebook.
So if you're from Facebook, Hello, cheers.
Yeah, thank you. It just cross posts but every
now and then I'll go on just to check, just to see.
Yeah, what's going on in the comments?
And there was a comment along this line, but it was within,
there was like hundreds of comments in this row we did.
And the vast majority of obviously teachers going like,
it's ridiculous. I, I get in at half seven every
day and leave at 5:00 and I still have stuff to do in the
evening or at the weekend along those lines of like, oh, a
person doing the job who's experienced it, who's just
telling you what they do hundreds of individual times on
their own. Yeah.
And someone commented going, oh, it's just nonsense.
I know a teacher only works there.
It's 9 till three, Like, oh, well, it's so easy.
Like what you're moaning about. I'm like, there, there are
hundreds of examples as to why you're wrong around this comment
that you put in and you still hold on to it like, well, I
think this and I'm the main character in life, aren't I?
So what I say goes, you're wrong and an idiot.
Yeah, people that use their very, very limited pool of
examples of of anything to justify their entire thought
process or something that is is baffles me always.
Can I link this to another one then?
Because this is another one that we get, maybe we can rate it as
well. But it's, it's very much linked
to what I've kind of gone on to here.
Yeah, I know you a teacher who's lazy, so you all must be.
That is it, isn't it my? Brother's a teacher and he gets
in at 8 and leaves at 3:15 every single day and doesn't do any
work. OK.
That's do you know what it could be true, yeah, but.
Probably. Probably.
I'm sure. Of course there'd be someone
like that. Yeah.
Of. Course, but then it's like, so
you're all lazy. You know what you're moaning
about you. Can do that or even not you're
all lazy. So I don't know what you're all
doing wrong, right. You could all do this right, but
as if the bar then gets to be like that's too low in terms of
like I can always guarantee if you're getting, if you're just
going in precisely for contact time stuff's not getting done.
I'm sorry, it's not, it's not. I'd be blown away, someone said.
Someone show me a good example of teacher really fulfilling
that full potential of their role and doing those out is not
possible. No, it's not.
That doesn't even do you know what actually it goes against
the contract. Yeah, you have to.
Because the contract literally says directed time and
reasonable hours outside the whole reasonable things where we
argue a lot. Yeah, So we have to do
something. You've got to do something.
So that person's just not even. They're just not.
You're glorifying someone just not even doing the job properly.
Yeah, that's not doing us any favours as teachers.
Yeah, let's not set the bar of don't do the job properly,
right. That's like saying, Oh my mate,
the worst insurance, he only works from 9:00 to 11:00.
Yeah, his contract is 9 till five.
He just decides to go home early and using that as the bar to set
to all other insurance brokers. Like, yeah, he does 2 hours a
day. What are you lot doing get?
Scamming. Come on.
Yeah. Come on, you're putting on
unnecessary works. No, he's just leaving early.
Yeah, he's breaking his contract.
I get something similar and it actually triggers me.
This is off the list. I'm gonna add something to it
because it's the other way around.
It's not from a teacher hater. I get a lot from teachers who
will say something like I saw a video, I can't remember who it
was, I can't remember who it was, but I'm not trying to dig
anyone out. But it was a video and it
annoyed me because the video was a little known fact about
teaching. Teachers are, are only paid for
their directed time and anything they do extra is not paid for
and it's extra work that they shouldn't be doing, right?
And I was like, you are wrong, but you are wrong.
We, we, we spend 99% of our time defending teachers and saying
lots of go above and beyond. But anyone who says teachers are
only paid for directed time and therefore should only do
directed time are wrong. Yeah, because it it could not be
more clear in the contract and we can talk about whether we
think the contracts are ridiculous or not and we can
have a really good conversation. And I think we probably agree
that that little bit in the contract which says you need to
do your director time and additional reasonable hours is
nonsense because it's vague, but it does exist.
It is in there. It is in there.
So when you say like teachers work extra for free, we actually
don't. Like part of our salary is
director time plus another part of our salary is reasonable
extra hours. And that's involved in the
payment. So it it, it's not helpful when
people say just do directed time and then go home.
And that'll teach them that isn't your contract.
You know what would be helpful? And this is where I think we
need to all get on the same page, directed time.
And then we all define reasonable together.
And even if we just say it's one hour a day that that would
quickly get eaten up because it could be in lunchtime, which is
not directed time, could be after school, which when you do
marking or a bit of extra planning when PPA overruns.
Yeah. Or in the morning, if we all
agree. Yeah, whatever it might be, if
we all agree let's do an hour extra, that is then definitely
within the contract. It also says in the contract, no
one else can dictate to you what reasonable is.
Yeah, so they can't say that's not reasonable.
You can say, well actually look at my contract, yeah, it says
reasonable hours and you can't be dictated to what reasonable
hours are. And I'm pretty sure the number 5
is ours. So yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've done five of them, Yeah. And I've said it's reasonable.
And actually, do you know what my whole colleague circle has as
well? Yeah.
And we're all doing one hour extra and then we go off.
That's good. Yeah.
So that triggers me the other way.
And it doesn't help when you get people who are saying things
like, oh, it's nice just working direct to time, isn't it?
And then you also get teachers saying, yeah, let's just do
that. Let's just get some kind of
middle ground, please. Yeah, good one, good one.
Next one. Most of what you teach is
pointless. Interesting that one.
Doesn't trigger me. No, I was going to say that.
That genuinely doesn't trigger me.
Someone said that to me. I'd be like, OK, let's talk
about that. Excuse me?
It's not pointless. Thank you and I shall go back to
teaching the active passive voice.
Yeah, I'll be doing a rivers to be fair, but.
Fair enough. Well, I think I think Rivers is
less pointless than active voice.
OK, God's sake. Here's where it does trigger me
right, is when people use examples where I don't think
it's pointless when there's particularly when it comes to
like maths or core subjects and they say, they say teach them
that particular insert math thing is pointless because they
won't use that. I've never used Pythagoras when
I've been older. People love that one.
I haven't. Yeah.
No, I haven't. I've.
Used it to solve logic puzzles. There you go in my.
Own free time. Completely necessary.
I just think there's deeper pedagogy, of course, problem
solver. There is deeper pedagogy too.
Why we do all the things we do in in terms of in maths if we're
talking about to my maths. Well, I don't use Pythagoras
before, no, but let's just think the logical process of
understanding how to go about something and going about a
problem and not getting the right answer, then trying again
and then understanding certain rule set and then applying that.
You do that all the time. Yeah.
And honestly, right. If we actually stopped at where
the general bar is in terms of what you might need for just
general, very, very basics in jobs.
Let's stop at you too then. Yeah.
What? Oh, yeah.
I don't. I also, I don't use triangles in
my job. OK, cool.
When I teach kids about triangles, I don't.
Yeah, I don't use that. I don't use year 6 algebra.
Yeah. So you probably do, by the way.
Yeah, because algebra is probably the most right In my
opinion, algebra is the most widely used, but.
People think that though because because they don't see in their
life. May plus, that's my point.
My point is that it's the most abstract thing when you just
look at it as a whole and easy to say you never use it.
Yeah, but actually you probably use that way more than knowing
what a dodecahedron is. Yeah, so, but let's go back to
the actual point and what's triggering most of what you
teach is pointless. I have an issue with the word
most because if I think about my primary school timetable, well,
half it's English and math straightaway, and then the
afternoons are art. Not pointless.
Yeah. Not pointless to teach art, of
course. Not pointless.
Yeah. What do you mean?
Are you defining a point by it can make me money in a job that
I'm going in? The job specifically only I want
as well. That's not even about everyone
else. So from year 2 we should put
everyone in the box like engineer, Carpenter, TikTok
influencer, YouTube footballer and they only learn and they
only do that. Like I'm obviously not like like
so when it says most I'm like it's just not.
Yeah, that I feel like people will use the word pointless
retrospectively, right. Exclusively that Yeah, it's like
OK when I'm. A Pythagoras professor?
Yeah. Do you, like, use it all the
time? Yeah, Actually, I'm a business
studies teacher. Yeah.
Uses business studies called constantly.
It's like, OK, we can all retrospectively when we're 40
and we're kind of deep rooted into a job or career, whatever,
go back and go for a checklist of everything we they ever
learned at school and be like, oh, I didn't use that, that,
that, that and that. But to suggest that we can then
go back in time and tell people like, well, don't do these
things because that going to be pointless for you is absurd.
Yeah. And like, you could look, you
could look back at it. You're absolutely right, because
I could look back at what I did. And there were lots of people
who say something like, drama is pointless.
Yeah. And like, if you actually look
at my job, like you could probably say, Oh yeah, it's
pointless because you're not an actor.
But really it was the opposite of that.
Yeah. It really helped me in general
just build confidence. And then that has gone on to
build me up in other ways where I could put on a show for the
children and teach and do things like this and social media
videos and, you know, talk on a podcast.
Exactly. So I think it's just, it's
never, you know, A to B, like you don't use this exact
Pythagoras theorem that you learn, therefore that's
pointless. It's like there's, there's so
many nodes and strands that come off learning things like that.
Yeah. Which in the long run impact you
positively, even in the way that isn't naturally, you know, abyss
straight away. Definitely, definitely.
So what did we give? Did we give that on a rating?
I felt like we didn't. What was it again?
Most of it. Most of it.
The teachers might not because I think be really honest, I think
quite a bit is pointless. Yeah, yeah, I do.
I I I've said before I've I've stood in front of a class
knowing this is the lesson I have to teach and thought why am
I doing this? But does that, does that just
break our analogy of like, you think it's pointless because you
don't think any of those kids? Are going to do that thing?
No, no, because because I'm I'm looking at the.
My point here is that I know my class.
I'm in front of them and I know that actually I could just read
a story to them and there'd be other people who say that's
pointless, okay. But for my class right now,
actually, it would just be so much better for them just to get
engrossed in this story. And yeah, okay, I can't decide
what isn't pointless, but it doesn't mean just because it's
hard to individually say that the the the end point of your
logic is nothing is pointless then because it might be good
for one person. Yeah, yeah, I do think some
stuff's pointless. OK, I think pointless is a
really strong word. I think maybe maybe the word
pointless isn't right. OK, what we're talking about
better stuff I could priority. I'm thinking priorities,
genuinely. Yeah, some stuff is.
It just shouldn't be the priority right now.
Like it's in fact it's so low on the list.
It's not pointless because there might be 1 kid who likes this
thing, but it's significantly lower than all these other
things. I think that's probably where
I'm trying to. Get yeah, no, that's fine.
That, that, that makes way more sense, yeah.
All right, another one ready. All teachers do is just complain
and moan online. Pretty much, yeah, it's true.
And zero. Yeah, no rage right there.
Yeah, I can't really argue with the fact that every reel we ever
put out, the ones that go viral are the ones that where we're
moaning about something. So clearly people like it.
It's not all we ever do. I'm actually going to do a quick
call out for a couple of people not call out, shout out, call
out. Sounds like I'm calling them out
for doing something bad. They're not they're doing
something good positive. We've we've, we've watched them
for a while while I have anyway, because you don't do social
media really. And I like their content.
It's very positive. It's like day in life.
Here's what we got up to. It's like very upbeat.
So like it kind of goes against what we're saying of social
media in, in general. Absolutely.
Kind of like a negative money place.
And we met them at the National Literary Trust Gala that we
were. That's a mouthful, isn't it?
Yeah, that is that we were invited to because that's 4
takes before this. We had to stop because you're.
Gonna be saying Natural History Museum, National Literary Trust.
We met them at the at the gala and it was Mr we met Mr
Hallahan, we met the Geordie teacher and a bunch of loads and
loads of people are there. And but those two I've
personally followed for a long time and they're just really
positive, Yeah, really positive outlook on the job.
And it's really nice to see. And it is unfortunate that, you
know, no go turbotry is seen as booming.
Honest, honestly, I do think there's a there's a scope here
just to grow up a bit, you know, in what way, in the way of that.
If you just see someone complaining about something, No,
it's realism. It's being realistic.
If something's broken, we use our platform to talk about it so
other people can realise that it's not just them experiencing
this. Yeah, actually, it's a
widespread thing. They don't usually need to
internalise whatever it is that's awful.
They need to understand everyone else is going through it as
well. Not only is that shared
experience genuinely, in my opinion, enough to justify doing
it, but then on top of it you can provide solutions on what
you can do to help. Yeah, definitely.
So I, I think it's, it's realism.
Mr P did a real recently about about this thing or people.
People say, oh, you're moaning online, etcetera.
It's like, well, no, I just use my platform to talk about things
I think are important. Yeah.
And when I say grow up, I mean, there are some people out there
who just think this isn't all lovely and roses and and smell
like daisies and fantastic. So it's bad.
You shouldn't be doing this. It's bad for the profession.
I just think they need to grow up a bit.
Right, OK, They think that we should glaze the profession.
We shouldn't talk about the negative things because being
moany and negative is worse than truth.
Completely. And I was like, it's just
realistic. And you know, Omar, who did the
episode with unofficial teacher's manual, the author,
that book. Yeah, yeah.
He did a comment actually and tagged us.
And his comment was basically like to Mr P was saying if
you're negative, then so am I. And so I teach the repeat.
Yeah, yeah. But and then his whole comment
was about how it's not negative. It it doesn't.
Just because something isn't nice doesn't mean it's a bad
thing to talk about. I think it can be good to share
those things. So.
So when someone says all teachers do is mine online,
you've been very vocal before of saying you think that the
interpretation of the job is really important.
So do you think that we go too far?
I I don't think so. I don't think we go too far.
I think criticism and moaning also just get completely banded
together as if there's no difference.
Like as if we can't critique something without just oh,
negative moaning teachers is like, can you just listen to the
critique I just gave and said like and just see if you agree
with him. We have a talk about it
discussion. Like it doesn't have to just
boil down to oh, just moaning about nothing.
Well, actually, there was a valid point that I was talking
about. Sometimes we do moan, everyone
moans and sometimes it's a scale that moaning might be less
justified. You're just having a bad day and
you moan about something that really isn't that bad on your
day at work or whatever. That is good old classic
moaning. But most of the time though,
it's not that. And the only thing I'd say like
with us that just gets me a little bit is just, is purely
the fact that online when it comes to clips and reels and
things like that, I, I think because the, the critiquing
negative Emoni ones, whatever you want to call it, generally
do better and go more viral and people listen to them longer.
I worry that people get the interpretation that we have
nothing positive to say because they're not the people that
aren't. If you're consuming our long
form podcast, I think I like to think that we're quite fair and
we have we talk about a lot of positive things, but I do worry
sometimes it panics me that people are just does it panic
you not not panic. I just, well, it does it in a
way because I because I care about what the way I come
across. That's my point.
You seem to care more about that representation.
Yeah, I do care about it. I think it's important to me.
I guess self, just me, selfishly.
So I wouldn't want people to form an opinion because they've
watched seventeen of our reels and they just happened to all be
things that they just think maybe are just on the scale of
money, some inconsequential, some more consequential.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's hard.
It's hard on social media because it's not a case of it's
not even a case of if you follow us, you see every video we post.
Yeah, it's not how it works. No, it's just not how it works.
Like we we can put a video out there that will genuinely get
3000 views, right? Got nearly 70,000 followers.
You'll get like 3000 views. We'll put another video out
there that will get a million. Views.
Yeah. Mental.
So it's it's you know, it's almost like followers is
becoming like a vanity metric online where actually, you know,
it's just what people watch and and listen to and go all the way
through about skipping past. Yeah, the algorithm learns that
it's something people are watching.
It pushes it out there even more.
Exactly. So, you know, absolutely
someone's experience of us online could just be our six
most watched podcast clips, which I can probably guarantee
are. I was going this thing in
education is just completely broken.
I can think of one that we still get likes for all the time, 2
rather that we did recently. One was about how you have to
accept you're letting your kids down as a teacher because the
system's broken, and to get through it and not be broken by
the system you just have to accept that you personally can't
do enough. And the other one was about how
teaching assistants pay is dreadful on paper.
Right, and this is where I kind of disagree with you.
They are both negative things. The the teaching system is
completely broken. You let your kids down all the
time. The pay is disgraceful for
teaching assistants. They're exploited.
They are, they are negative things, right?
I don't care if that's the only two things people see from us
because I put it out there for a reason, because I want people to
see it. So if if they're looking at
going, oh, these guys are always bloody negative, that's I don't
see it as a problem. I see it as a them problem.
So I don't care if you think that because I think they're two
really important messages to get across that I thoroughly believe
in. So it doesn't bother me.
Like if things are being pushed out there, it's because they're,
it's because people want to watch it.
It's because people are literally consuming it.
It only gets pushed out there if people are taking it in and
reading it. And most of the time they're
completely agreeing with us. So if someone, my point here is
if someone looks at it and goes, why are you so negative?
I'm like, mate, that's a you problem.
It's not negativity, it's realism, and it's what a lot of
people want to hear. OK, so rating then.
So if I find because of my personal reaction to it, which
is clearly very different to yours, I find when people talk
about all teachers do is moan and complain like that really
gets me. That's like 800 and 851 like.
Yeah, I'm like, I'm like 7. Yeah, really down there.
That didn't bother me, like, like because I'm like, yeah, we
do that. What would annoy me is go on to
be like, if someone said you should only talk about positive
stuff. Yeah, 1000.
I just find it undermines everything.
It's all if someone, when someone comes to the conclusion
that all teachers do is moan and complain online, it just, it
annoys me so much because it because it undermines every
single valid argument and point people are trying to make about
teachers because it's all just banded together now and that's
just what they think. And that annoys me that someone
comes to that conclusion. That's an M problem.
Though, I know, but it really frustrates me that they get to
that conclusion. It's not.
But like, we wouldn't be making
these videos if we weren't trying to change people's minds
and make a bit of a difference. Like so that the idea that
someone's immediately closed off to it really pisses me off.
But I don't think those people would be or not because those
people will see positive and go. I've seen people before going,
oh finally at last you're not bashing SLT.
It's like at no point was I bashing all SLT.
Like people have these, they already formed these.
You could have the most clear video in the world saying people
in leadership who are toxic and do this thing are bad people and
there would still be someone who goes you hate SLT.
You're a dead brain because it's not what I said and it's not my
responsibility. I can't be more clear than the
video I posted. If you comment something
underneath that is just literally not what I said in the
video. That's just, it's not a me
problem. Yeah, if someone just thinks
like, oh, it's just so negative all the time, you can think
that. That's fine.
It's not my responsibility to make you not think that.
Whatever. I don't care.
Still triggers me though. Yeah, still trigger me.
That's fine. So.
Here's another one. This one's a very good one.
Get a different job if it's that bad.
OK, this triggers me. Yeah, District, this is like
874. Wow, nearly the 9 hundreds.
No, it triggers me a lot because I know how much of a problem it
is that we are haemorrhaging teachers like so.
So when people say why don't you just leave, it's like a double
whammy. Yeah, yeah.
It's like, firstly, you're an idiot if you think you can't
complain about something without getting to the point of leaving.
And actually when I was teaching, I was complaining
about it a lot because I wanted it to change, because I didn't
want to leave. The the goal of me talking about
it was that I did not end up leaving.
So when someone says why don't you just leave, it annoys me
because I'm like, I know I could just leave.
I don't want to. That's the point.
That's why I'm saying it's bad and why they can fix things
because there are very, there are lots of redeemable things
about teaching. There's loads of things that
piss me off about teaching. So I'm going to talk about them
because I want to stay. And then the double whammy is
why don't you just leave? Lots of people are and I also
want to stop them from doing that, which is why I'm doing it.
Just why I'm talking about it. So it's like it really
triggered. Me there is 1/3 whammy to this,
which is something you said a lot, so I'm surprised you didn't
say it right then. Is that so many people to them
Like they're you saying that it's just like they're thinking,
yeah, I want to and I literally just can't exactly.
I can't like not everyone. Like it's so silly to just think
that everyone can just up and silly, silly.
I can just up and leave their job because I don't like this
anymore. I'm quitting tomorrow.
So come on. Like the reality for most normal
working people is you cannot do that.
You're tied into a mortgage or rent or somewhere.
You can't just take some crazy financial risk like that.
Some people can. That's great.
Yeah, cool. A lot of people can't.
And you just saying why don't you just quit then is really not
helpful as you. Make the answer and the answer
because I've got a mortgage bills.
Yeah, yeah. So it's a job between those
three things. I agree.
By the way, I find this, it's really tricky.
And why don't you just quit? It's just so like for those
three reasons, it's just so wrong.
I'm like, come on, Like just think about what you're saying a
bit more. Do you want everyone to quit?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's always my favourite.
Well, I had this, I had this argument with my stepdad years
ago, right. Like we, we always debate about
running stuff like this and you'll never be on my real dad.
Yeah, that doesn't end up like that.
But he was like, Oh yeah, you're just, I think we're actually
talking about nurses at the time.
And then it kind of went on to teachers as well.
Were you a teacher at this point?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it went on to you. Yeah, yeah.
I think it was around the time of like nurse strikes and
teachers strikes and public, just public service strikes.
And it was all up in the air. And he's like, oh, do you know
what? If the job's that bad, just go
and get another one. And it just, I hate that
argument so much. I'm like, cool, OK, imagine if
everyone took your advice. Imagine if they all just did
that. What what the hospital was going
to run by fairies. Like, what do you think is going
to happen? No one's going to educate our
kids. How about we focus on fixing the
problems that making everyone want to quit rather than just
telling them all to go and get another job because, you know,
that's not a solution. It's dumb.
It's not a real solution. And that's what I said to.
Them it's the same thing when people say like flippantly,
like, you know, when they talk about how long the summer
holidays are and stuff, well, they get loads of time off.
Just make them come in for another 4 weeks.
I was like, OK, let's just ignore every reason why.
It's just ridiculous what you're saying.
Let's just say that happened. Yeah.
And we got to the point we were like, OK, yeah, four extra
weeks. OK, one of two things needs to
happen. You pay the teachers for the
extra 4 weeks that they'll be in work for the extra directed
time, right? So that won't happen.
No. Right.
Or it remains the same amount of pay and you just expect them to
work more for some reason, Despite that being completely
ridiculously backwards thought that would never apply to any
job ever. You do more work, please, for
the same pay. OK, I will leave.
And then there'll be a Max exodus of teachers and then you
won't have enough teachers to teach the children.
So it's like, OK, which one of those situations do you want?
It costs way more or you don't have enough teachers because
that's what will happen when you make that change.
And there is people who can't think past the end of their nose
because they're so far up their own backside that they just
think bloody teachers. I could just say this thing
because it will make old people get really up for it and say
they're really bloody lazy. And I'm going to put it in the
Daily Mail tomorrow. I'm going to say lazy teachers
when I work for my and it work, it'll work.
It'll get people saying it, but but if you actually just follow
through with what would happen, it would be.
It's a logical thought trend. Do you think there's a middle
ground though? Genuinely, based on everything
we just said, where people might think, yeah, just do the one, We
don't pay them more because like we've just established, there
won't be a mass exodus because so many, too many people are
just tied into the job. They won't be able to leave.
They'll just be horribly unhappy instead.
Some somewhere, but it'll push some to leave.
It'll push some to leave who are on the edge of doing.
It'll just say, do you know what?
It's not worth my yeah, it's not worth your health.
And no, not even if they can. They'll just take a pay cut and
survive, right? Because there are some people
who can but choose not to. Like can is such a loaded word
here. Like there are some people who
will obviously who could just go and get another job and take
even like a 10 to 15 grand pay cut.
There are some people who could do that and have a lower quality
of life. I'm not saying it wouldn't
affect. Yeah, they'd have massive.
Sacrifice, I'm not saying yeah, I'm not saying it wouldn't
affect them, but they can do that.
So it what I'm saying is for a lot of those people that would
just tip them over to be like, it's not life anymore.
Yeah, I'd rather go and have a much less stressful job.
It won't have the same quality of life, but I won't be as
stressed. And to me, that's worth the
money. Yeah, it'll, it'll tip people
over the edge and. They weren't think of that
before, but now they are. Exactly that it'll tip people
over the edge, but it will also have a detriment on recruitment.
It'd become it'd become far less true, far less job like
appeasing job. Yeah, we're already struggling.
With that's the biggest argument I think that.
Yeah, it'd be both, but it would just make some people more leave
who wouldn't? Because there will be some
people on that line who are should I, Should I, Oh my God, I
will now. And they'll just take the hit
and then recruitment went and then give it four or five years.
Yeah, nonsense. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
So that's quite a triggering 1 then Quite a triggering.
One quite triggering and dinged go on crack on you.
Did one good job, all right. Teachers are just brainwashing
the next generation with personal politics.
This is actually honestly like 907 really.
This really triggers. Me into the 9:00.
Hundreds. It really triggers me.
Is it because you are doing that and you hate being pulled out?
You heard it here. First, because I want my lefty
WOKI beta liberal agenda to be out there to the masses.
That's why. Yeah, like, let me do it.
Yeah, it it really triggers me. Is it?
Is it triggering? Because again, like the other
ones, they're just so far from the truth as to what's happening
in schools or. It, yeah.
Is that a bit really There's there's like there's so many,
there's so many reasons why it triggers me, which why
amalgamates, that's one of them. Yeah.
I think that you see the odd article in GB News Online of
something that is genuinely bad, right?
That is genuinely maybe the example of a teacher going too
far of the personal beliefs with the class and I would say that's
bad practise. You should do it where?
No matter where my politics lies.
Of course, which? Obviously happens in every job
ever. By the way, just to clarify,
teachers, I'm perfect, right? That's my point I was going to
make is this is you. You see that?
And the thing that triggers me is when people go say our kids
are bloody ruined in this next generation.
Yeah mate, I have taught for 10 years and it does not happen
where? I'm not saying it doesn't happen
at all, but to suggest that therefore it's happening
everywhere is just stupid because you've seen one thing
and what it is, is you want to believe that this is happening
everywhere. So you see one example, you see,
see that's happening everywhere. It's ridiculous.
It's not. It is not.
This kind of indoctrination is not happening everywhere.
That's one reason why it annoys me.
Another reason I'll throw this back to you is the definition of
indoctrination for some other people will just be ridiculous
and it's not indoctrination. For example, there'll be some
people if they walked into a school and they saw some kind of
poster or something on the wall which was about welcoming
everyone, everyone's welcome here.
Or even something as specific as we don't stand for anti racism,
right? There are some people who look
at that and go bloody indoctrination shouldn't be in
schools. And that's the other thing that
really, really triggers me. It's like you're you're you're a
you're an idiot. Yeah, there's not, there's not
there is a big, there was a big thing in America recently where
it was basically pushing back against everyone.
Malcolm. There was just a post saying
everyone welcome and there and there was a big, big push back
from parents saying it's indoctrination.
You shouldn't be saying stuff like that because their
interpretation of that. And it was the whole thing with
with trans ideology racism. Border.
Control everything you can think about because they saw the words
everyone welcome. Which is just a nice thing to
have in a school, by the way. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. It's a school.
Come in, everyone's welcome. We make this.
They saw that and they were like, oh, that's political.
That's brainwashing. You shouldn't be teaching kids.
You shouldn't be teaching. Kids that everyone's welcome.
That's mad, isn't it? Yeah, that's just got so far
down the line of of that's why I get annoyed division, isn't it?
Yeah, that's crazy to me. And it do you know what's more
annoying is the fact that I can. I understood so quickly why
people would think that as well. I mean, I didn't I I like I'm so
I'm so attuned to the the madness of the world right now
that I could immediately think of four reasons why a bunch of
parents in America, yeah, particularly would be looking at
being. That's not true because it got
based all the things you just said because they don't like the
trans move and they don't. Like think, are you saying
paedophiles are welcome? No, Yeah, yeah, that's.
Legit, but that's in my head. I'm like, oh, I reckon they
think that, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
That's what I. Mean I'm like, that's not fair
enough. That's mental.
Yeah, they're mental. These people are crazy.
Yeah, of course everyone in this school is welcome.
Everyone which is all of the people here, they're all
welcome. That's what that means.
It means everyone coming into this school right now, which,
yeah, by definition is the people that go to this school.
You can think of the worst person in the world, right, And
apply that and say you should see you're you're saying that if
Hitler was around now, you'd be welcoming me.
Oh my God, like nonsense. Like that's where then I'm like,
come on, come on. It's just, it's just ridiculous.
The whole, the whole idea, because you kind of get into it
with indoctrination, brainwashing.
I've always found that fascinating because I'm like, it
is quite subjective in terms of what we define as
indoctrination, really. In terms of like, I'm sure
someone, anyone could justify literally anything we ever tell.
Like the purpose of school is indoctrination to an extent,
right? We're indoctrinating these young
mammals in into the specific culture that we live in and
speak. Language properly without.
You speaking English in this country, are you?
That's indoctrination into that language, yeah.
Kind of like because we all speak English here, like I guess
so if you want to call that indoctrination.
Oh, doing maths every day on the timetable, indoctrinating them
and thinking maths is what? OK.
And reading is. Yeah, reading.
Yeah, we also do that. Is that indoctrination?
Like, Oh yeah, we've prioritised teaching kids to read.
I bet the reading's in English as well, isn't it?
Well, that's indoctrination. I find it a strange concept
basically, is what I'm saying. Like I think there are levels,
right. Of course there are.
I think there are. Easy to point out.
Definitely when it comes to extremities, like it's very easy
to say that's that's just clear cut.
We all agree that's. But it's indoctrination.
Indoctrination. If you're saying it's
indoctrination to teach English every day, I think that's a bit
wild. I think that's a bit wild as
well. I think that's more extreme on
the other side I. Think it's indoctrination?
Being but I think someone might say in a way it is because
you're teaching kids to think a specific way.
I don't know. Does it fall under that
category? I don't know.
Like is teaching just by definition indoctrination?
That's kind of what I'm getting at, and I might be genuine, I
might be wrong. Genuinely, I'm.
Going to read it out. Indoctrination is the process of
forcefully or persistently teaching a person or group to
accept a specific set of beliefs, ideologies, or
doctrines. OK.
So I think it's more specifically like.
So academics wouldn't count. That's not beliefs or
ideologies. That's fair enough.
And I think that's why
indoctrination separately, you can kind of, I can kind of see
why people separate and say you shouldn't be indoctrinating
anything because what they're saying is the role of school is
to not go into beliefs or moral moralistics.
Yeah. But I I personally think it's
fine to go into the realms of morals when it's just a blanket
thing. Of course it is and and also.
But some people say it's not. Yeah, and, and, and, but, But if
you're persistently saying to people, right, Case, here's the
troubling bit, which goes against what we both think,
right? Yeah.
But I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit here.
Some will say that persistently saying whatever it is, if it's a
moral outlook on, like persistently if it's a moral
outlook on life and like the acceptance of absolutely
everyone no matter what, if you're persistently saying that
to the children and teaching them that every day, that is
indoctrination. Yeah.
In the same way you just talked about how reading would be
indoctrination, but we don't care.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're saying, OK, maybe not,
but, but maybe it is indoctrination.
But maybe what we're saying is some indoctrination is OK.
That's the point I'm trying to make.
I've got one more thing to back this up.
Right. Literally part of the basically
every UK school is something to do with British culture.
Yeah. That is inherently based on that
definition is indoctrination completely.
But we all obviously think that's OK because we live in
Britain. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So like no one has a problem with teaching British culture in
in British schools to kids who are growing up in British
culture. Yeah, some, but it is what maybe
they do. But it is indoctrination.
Yes, in in the literal sense, in the same way that what you just
said about saying everyone. And faith schools.
Like right faith. Schools getting kids to walk in
to an assembly and sit down and all chant back a reading from
the Bible. That is indoctrination, and for
me that goes above the line. I think that's bad, I think
that's wrong, and I think that's bad.
Objectively, I don't think we should be.
Doing no matter what the. Faith I don't think we should be
doing no matter what the faith, it's nothing to do with the
faith. It's to do with the
indoctrination of, of making children believe in a God.
I don't think that's OK. And other people, most people in
fact, disagree with me on that one.
So, so that's my whole overall point here is it's obviously
subjective. So indoctrination itself, if
someone's saying we've got really deep here, if someone's
saying you're just indoctrinating the kids, the
answer really probably should be, yeah, we are.
Yeah. But you know, the act of
indoctrination itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, but we
should be looking at what we're doing with indoctrination.
But the the the people hear what I'm saying here and get
immediately triggered because they have this idea of
indoctrination being negative all the time.
Yeah, yeah, of course. Indoctrination is persistently
putting across the and, and teaching an ideology, A belief,
a set of values. So if you agree with that
ideology, belief, a set of values, you obviously don't
think that it's a bad thing. But if you disagree with them,
then you obviously think it is a bad thing.
And that's where this comes from.
People will be saying, you know, I, I personally disagree with
that. Whether we think that's
acceptable or not, they will personally disagree with it.
Do they have the right to in a public school, no matter what me
and you think is acceptable or not?
Do they have a right in a public school?
No matter. It doesn't matter if we think
they're right or wrong. Do they have the right to say
you shouldn't be doing that to my kids, stick to academics.
I think they have the right to have an opinion.
Of course they do. The thing just going back to
this to really clear, the thing that triggers me about it is
when people, and you basically just said this, I'm going to say
it again, is when people decide to call it brainwashing when
it's something they don't agree with and they don't think it's
brainwashing when it is something they agree with.
That's what annoys me because it's like they can't even agree
that in this idea of brainwashing, indoctrination is
subjective in the 1st place. It's like, oh for God's sake.
So, oh, it's brainwashing our kids with this political
ideology. But if I was teaching your
political ideology, you wouldn't call that brainwashing, would
you? So, yeah, reform recently a
reform candidate went into a school and did a talk about
reform, and obviously all the reform people are absolutely
loving it. Yeah, of course.
And it was just, it was just like, just think for one second
about everything you've said about schools.
If you think about the typical reform candidate of how it's
awful and stuff, you can't, you don't get to now not think it's
awful. You don't, you don't get to now
think that's OK because it's what you believe in that.
That story, I've seen that as well, triggered me at 1000 on
this scale. Yeah, because of the reason we
just established. That's what annoyed me so much.
Indoctrination is OK, but it's what I want, yeah.
That ohh God I just can't stand it.
I do think just be really clear, the teachers are brainwashing
the next generation of personal politics.
I think there's a really good debate to have here about where
the line is in in school. You should do it in general
about politics and certainly personal politics.
I think that's a reasonable opinion and debate to have.
To talk. It's not happening lots.
But yeah, that isn't happening lots.
No, no, no. The personal politics thing of
someone in the classroom giving their personal politics to the
class. I I agree that's bad.
And I don't think it happened as much.
The wider point of indoctrination is an interesting
one. Yeah, because you could have
someone walk past, imagine you walk into a school and and
they're on the way to the hall, right, to deliver an assembly
and they walk past something on the wall and it's about anti
racism and and they think, oh God, and it's there any need for
that? Like, oh God in that's all.
Oh gosh. And they go to they go to the
hall and then they're delivering a sermon on Christianity.
Yeah. It's like, OK, you've decided,
you've decided if you have that thought train, you've decided
personally which indoctrination to you is acceptable or not.
And so, so putting it all back, you know, should schools not do
any? I know this is this is what I've
I've never got to a conclusion of this argument.
I felt like we've even off the podcast had this conversation.
I don't know what the solution is.
I just know the only thing we shouldn't be doing is completely
ignoring the fact that the hypocrisy.
That's it, that's it. We should just stop.
Let's we should try. We should aim to be as like the
least hypocritical we possibly can be when we're talking about
that. That for me is the first step.
And we're not even there in terms of like, will we ever be
able to draw a line? Probably not, no.
Basically, like the world is constantly changing.
Culture is constantly changing, Opinions constantly change.
And this is all about the subjectivity of culture and
opinion. So it's an impossible task.
But that example you gave happens if people walk in
through, I don't agree with that indoctrination.
Here's my indoctrination. It's like, for Christ's sake,
like at least accept that that is hypocrisy and then we can
maybe talk. Imagine like there's a racist
incident on the playground and it goes to the teacher and they
go, sorry, can't get involved in this belief system of whether
this is good or bad. No, it's bad.
Yeah, it's bad. It's bad.
So we can say it's bad. Like there has to be like
there's some obviously some stuff that's just true.
True. So, so like, should schools do
beliefs and system and and morality?
Of course they should. Of course they should.
Yeah, But it's tricky where the line is.
Yeah, hard. And you're interested.
So yeah, this, this imaginary person we made-up.
Yeah. Put them to rights, haven't we?
Definitely. It's probably a business studies
teacher. I've made enemies there.
Yeah, you have? No, I just, I just.
It was the only time where I was like, you have to have had some
experience. Yeah.
You have to have had some experience doing it in order to
teach it well, I think. Yeah, and I agree for every
single subject equally. That's it.
It's just weird that business studies gets picked out that's.
What I'm saying? We have to agree to disagree,
right? No.
Yes, maybe. I don't know.
Can you repeat the question? Yeah, absolutely not guys.
We'll see you next time. Thank you so much.
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