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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach 

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Sleep, Repeat. 
My name is Dylan and my name's 

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Hayden, and this week we're 
going to be taking a look at why

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reading for enjoyment has 
plummeted in recent years. 

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We'll discuss some of the 
barriers to reading and how to 

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overcome them, and ultimately 
why reading for pleasure is so 

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important and why, as educators 
and parents, we should be 

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fostering it as much as 
possible. 

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And of course, if you enjoy this
episode, leave us a review and 

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why not get in touch with us on 
our socials at Teach Sleep 

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Repeat podcast. 
Think about reading for pleasure

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in general. 
I'm going to come out of this 

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whole framing of children for a 
second and just ask you 

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personally, as an adult, do you 
ever feel guilty about how much 

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you read? 
Because I know you're not really

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a reader. 
And as a teacher, do you not 

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think like you're almost 
ignoring what you preach about 

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the importance and the 
brilliance of reading? 

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Yeah, you've. 
Cheers mate. 

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You know how you're terrible at 
this thing we're talking about? 

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We are a voice of. 
Authority. 

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Yeah, I think it's good story. 
I've always said it's good 

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story. 
Yeah, that's I kind of want to 

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throw it to you straight away. 
Guilt. 

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I don't know if it's the right 
word. 

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I don't know what the right word
is. 

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I'm not sure it's guilt. 
But I have always been like 

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hyper aware of the fact that I 
don't really enjoy reading, but 

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I don't really enjoy reading. 
I mean, I don't enjoy reading. 

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I do not read for pleasure. 
Like I don't, I won't. 

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You won't catch me picking up a 
fiction book and reading it for 

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fun. 
The odd non fiction book across 

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my life has piqued my interest 
because it's just a topic that 

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I've been interested in and I'll
sit there and read it. 

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And even with those, I don't 
think I've ever really read it 

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cover to cover. 
I'll get halfway through a book 

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like that and feel like I've 
learned all of the stuff that 

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satisfies my interest, and then 
I'll go and Google something or 

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watch some YouTube videos on 
that thing more and I'll be 

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like, cool, done with that 
interest. 

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Do you do that with TV shows and
films and stuff? 

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No, I always watch them through.
Why then? 

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Why do you think there's a 
difference there? 

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I don't know, maybe I think they
captivate captivate me more. 

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I've always found that though, 
even as a child, I, I read the 

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books I needed to read. 
Like I wasn't, I wasn't someone 

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who didn't do the reading. 
Like if I had to read a certain 

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book, you know, to get my stamp 
or whatever at school, I would 

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do that reading. 
And I was, I was an average, if 

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not slightly above average 
reader. 

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Like I got through fine, but I 
never really enjoyed it. 

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Well. 
Even as a child. 

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Yeah, even as a child, like I, 
I, I didn't, it didn't really 

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capture me. 
I I remember reading classics 

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like Biff and Chip and just 
being like. 

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I thought you were going to say 
something like Wind of the 

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Willows. 
No, no, no, no not not. 

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I remember the lost key, not not
the classics. 

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That's the one I'm thinking of 
as well. 

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Lost key. 
Yeah, it was a whole. 

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It was like a whole series of. 
Things. 

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But I tell you what. 
I tell you what. 

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I've read all the classics me. 
Classic The Wind in the Key by 

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Biff and Chip. 
You can't even think about. 

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The classic. 
I actually can't think of any 

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classics right now. 
Charles Dickens by Biff and Chip

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doesn't make any sense, but I 
remember I just never really 

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found it interesting. 
However, I did love and I was 

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that kid at school who would sit
there with me. 

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Encyclopaedia or that like 
massive science book that had 

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like just like loads of fun 
facts. 

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Right, but you enjoyed that? 
I enjoyed that and that was 

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reading now and that was 
reading, but it was never, that 

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was never pushed though. 
That was very much, oh wow, 

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that's cool. 
Now let's get a real reading 

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book. 
And you've got to read those, 

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and I didn't like them. 
Yeah, we're, I think we're going

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to talk a little bit, explore 
that a little bit later in terms

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of, you know, if we broaden what
we count as reading, then 

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perhaps actually we look at for 
enjoyment. 

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There are a lot more avenues 
that children can go down. 

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But just before we dive into 
that whole chat then about, you 

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know, the importance of it, 
etcetera. 

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I'm, I'm only asking, I'm not 
actually asking this to catch 

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you out at all, but I'm just, I 
just want to lay the foundations

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down of there's lots of people 
who'll be listening to this who 

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are obviously educators, working
in school, teachers, and 

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there'll be a lot of people who 
love reading. 

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Even at the minute on Instagram,
there's this whole nominate 

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thing going around what you're 
reading at the minute and you 

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can nominate other accounts and 
things like that. 

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So there's a big culture of 
adults reading as well, whether 

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that's adults reading children's
literature or adults reading 

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adult books, etcetera. 
There's lots of talk about in 

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the education space. 
And I just think it's also 

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important for a bunch of 
listeners out there now who are 

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probably thinking to themselves,
oh gosh, I mean, can I be a good

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educator if I'm not reading 
constantly? 

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If I've not got my nose in the 
book, if if I prefer to go and 

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do something else on my pleasure
and seek it elsewhere, am I 

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hypocrite for telling children 
we need to read for pleasure? 

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And I am I kind of going against
this whole argument of why it's 

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so important if actually as an 
adult I'm not doing it myself. 

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I don't think it's hypocritical,
but but I do think and, and bear

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in mind, I'm in the camp of I'm 
not, I don't really read. 

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I do think you're more likely to
be a better, to be a better 

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teacher if you read more 
children's literature, 

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particularly I do. 
I genuinely more likely, more 

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likely. 
I don't think it is guaranteed. 

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I don't think I've been a bad 
teacher within English. 

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I think maybe I, I think maybe I
could have got to like a, maybe 

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a certain threshold of teaching 
a bit quicker if I just knew a 

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bit more children's literature. 
But I also read on the job, like

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as part of the job. 
I've actually, ironically, read 

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a lot of children's literature 
now because I've taught a 

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billion books in my 10 years of 
teaching to kids, which I 

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obviously actually needed to 
read in advance. 

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Like, you know, and yeah, maybe 
I would have been a bit better 

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if I knew the author or I could 
have told children, Oh, I really

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recommend this book by this 
author now, now that you've read

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this one because, you know, I'm 
such an expert. 

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I've read them all. 
And I do think those teachers 

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probably probably foster a love 
for reading a little bit better 

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than me. 
It's, it's such a good skill to 

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have. 
I've always been envious of 

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those educators who can, you 
know, listen to a child read and

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see they're enjoying this series
and then almost have like 14 

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other books and they can 
recommend as a result. 

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And I think that's an amazing 
skill. 

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And, and it's, it's something 
that we should celebrate. 

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And it's, it's not something 
every single teacher can have. 

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And I think you're right in 
saying it doesn't necessarily 

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mean you're a bad teacher. 
Of course not. 

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Because I think we're more in 
that camp of we'd have to go 

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away and do some research. 
And there's a difference between

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kind of ignoring it at all as a 
problem and say, no, it's fine. 

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Now don't worry if you don't 
enjoy reading. 

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I don't think many teachers are 
like that. 

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But I think you can really 
understand the importance of 

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reading and how it can really 
impact a child's outcomes. 

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But still, as an adult, maybe 
not read as much as you would 

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like. 
So the last thing I'm going to 

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ask you, are you happy with the 
amount you read as an adult or 

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do you still think? 
Do you personally think? 

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OK I know I don't and I don't 
enjoy it but I should read more.

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I think I've slowly gotten, I 
used to feel a lot more like 

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that. 
I used to. 

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I think the embarrassment's 
probably the right word. 

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I genuinely, I think I felt 
embarrassed that I didn't read 

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like other people read. 
And over the years I've just 

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learned to accept that I just 
don't enjoy that and that is OK.

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In all honesty, I think it's 
fine. 

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I don't. 
I don't think it's a problem. 

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So OK, let's bring this round 
then to our discussion today. 

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Is it OK in a fine if a child 
doesn't enjoy reading? 

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It's different because they're 
still in the learning stage. 

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I've done it like I'm I'm 
already, I'm over the hill. 

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I've already learned to the 
level that which I need to be at

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to function in society. 
So like it sounds really 

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hypocritical, but no, like I 
think no, it's no, here's what 

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it is. 
I think it is objectively OK if 

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a child comes to the conclusion 
that it's not really a passion 

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they want to take up. 
Do what? 

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So, but do I think children need
to learn to read? 

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Yes. 
And that's almost a separate 

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thing. 
I think through enjoyment, 

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that's how we foster children 
getting to learn how to read. 

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So they're kind of they kind of 
become LinkedIn with each other.

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So if the question was is is it 
important that we do everything 

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we possibly can to make kids 
enjoy reading, I think the 

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answer is yes, because that has 
a knock on effect of they're 

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probably then going to learn how
to read properly, which is what 

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we need to be functioning in 
society. 

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Right, Because it would be 
really, really counterproductive

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for us to kind of just say, oh, 
that's fine. 

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Then if you don't, it's our job 
to really find a way for this to

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be at the forefront of what they
want to do. 

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And whether personally, as 
educators or not, we go away and

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spend lots of our free time 
doing it. 

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We know how important it is. 
And if a child enjoys it, 

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they're going to and spend more 
time doing it, get better at 

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reading, and therefore have 
better outcomes as a result. 

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So we're rooting this in. 
All I want our listeners to 

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think here is whether or not 
they personally love reading or 

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are avid readers. 
As adults, I think we can all 

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agree that it's really, really 
important that children do read 

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lots. 
And if children are enjoying it,

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and if we foster an environment 
that promotes reading for 

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enjoyment, we're not going to 
hit every single child all of 

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the time because it's literally 
impossible. 

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But we have to at least look at 
ourselves and say we're doing 

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everything we can because it's 
so important. 

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One, one final thing, like a 
preface almost that maybe we can

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think about as we're having the 
discussion, because we're going 

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to talk about some of the 
challenges and the barriers to 

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reading and how that's changed 
over the years is I genuinely 

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think there was a, a version of 
reality where I would have 

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enjoyed reading. 
I actually think that could have

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existed. 
I think I'm way too deep rooted 

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now into the things I like and 
the things I don't like as much 

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that it'd be really hard to 
change. 

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But I genuinely think we can go 
back in time and make certain 

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changes, idealistic, realistic, 
whatever. 

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And I could have maybe between 
someone who enjoyed reading do. 

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You think if it was fostered a 
bit more around your actual 

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enjoyment and seeing what you 
were reading and accepting that 

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is reading and therefore it's 
good, like your encyclopaedia or

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sat down reading your facts, 
would that have kind of wormed 

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you into a wider sense of 
reading in general do you think?

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I think that is one of a few 
factors that we should go 

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through now that probably could 
have made a difference, but I 

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don't think that alone. 
No. 

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OK, cool. 
Well, we're going to go through 

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a bunch of them. 
I'm going to start off with a 

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statistic because it's going to 
link it with my first question 

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to you. 
So here it's from the National 

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Liturgy Trust and this kind of 
grounds the whole conversation 

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that we're having about reading 
for pleasure. 

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So just one in three children 
and young people said that they 

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enjoyed reading in their free 
time in 2025 S just for context 

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there, that means two in three 
don't. 

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So one in three only are 
enjoying reading. 

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And that's on its own is kind of
a damning statistic because 

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we've just talked about how 
important it is to try and 

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foster that. 
But what makes it even more of a

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00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,400
worry, in my opinion, is that 
that that marks a 36% decrease 

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00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:32,720
in reading enjoyment levels 
since 2005. 

228
00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,320
Yeah, that's really interesting.
It fits the narrative. 

229
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,920
I think if it's what I feel like
makes sense. 

230
00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,960
And I I was in the it's kind of 
it's all in 3rd, isn't it 

231
00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,800
really? 
36% is nearly 1/3 right? 

232
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:44,640
So it's kind of like thinking 
about math somehow. 

233
00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:46,640
You had to have to bring around 
to the really good subject. 

234
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,960
Well, that's basically what I 
was going to say to you, is does

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00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,920
that match your impression? 
You've been in the job for 10 

236
00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:51,920
years. 
You've been teaching and 

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00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,320
training since 2015. 
Yeah, it's not quite 2005, But 

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00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,120
have you, have you witnessed 
that dip? 

239
00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,280
Is it something you've seen as 
an educator in school? 

240
00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,400
I think I've seen a slight dip. 
I wouldn't, I wouldn't say like,

241
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,400
I mean, I know that's over a 20 
year period and we're talking 

242
00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,000
over a 10 year period. 
I don't, I'd only say it's a 

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00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,400
slight dip and I'd say a bit 
more amplified in the last 

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00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,640
couple of years. 
From my personal experience of 

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00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,920
children not enjoying reading, 
I'd say it's been roughly that 

246
00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:16,680
10 years ago it was roughly the 
same. 

247
00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:18,520
I had a rough amount, you know, 
the same amount of children in 

248
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,640
my class that didn't enjoy 
reading, but that. 

249
00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,480
But compared to the last couple 
of years, I think that has 

250
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,120
noticeably dipped even more. 
I don't know about you. 

251
00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:30,440
No, I think from what I've seen 
in the classroom, I guess it's a

252
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,120
huge thing that I you've, it's 
got to come back to this. 

253
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,400
I hate coming back to this every
time because it feels like a 

254
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,480
pointless thing to say. 
But when library books aren't 

255
00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:43,320
updated over a decade, OK, and 
and and money is squeezed so 

256
00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,760
much in scores, how, how, what 
is that going to manifest itself

257
00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,040
as? 
And as a teacher, I just find it

258
00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,800
a lot of children and more and 
more and more as time went on, 

259
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,280
there were more and more 
children saying, well, I've read

260
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,680
these books, I've finished them,
I've done them. 

261
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,120
And those children who are avid 
readers kind of run out very 

262
00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:00,800
quickly. 
And those children who aren't 

263
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,920
necessarily avid readers, but 
are really hyper focused and 

264
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,960
intently enjoy one subset of a 
genre perhaps. 

265
00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,320
Or maybe they absolutely love 
graphic novels or they're just 

266
00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,400
into something else, like you 
said, like your fact books. 

267
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,280
That's just one slither of the 
books we offer the children. 

268
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,240
And you can rinse through those 
very quickly and you kind of 

269
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,040
lose interest then because it's 
enough variety. 

270
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,120
So yeah, I would say I've 
noticed a decrease, I think in 

271
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,000
that reading. 
And again, we're going to come 

272
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,920
on to it later on, I think when 
we talk about the individual 

273
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,880
barriers and stuff. 
But I think again, I don't like 

274
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,160
just pointing the finger and I'm
not doing that at all. 

275
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,680
But you we've got to look at the
the attitude from home as well 

276
00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:39,160
and, and reading in the 
household. 

277
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,120
And there's loads of statistics 
we're going to get onto about 

278
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,200
how reading is less and less and
less on a pedestal in homes. 

279
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,120
And how many times as a teacher 
have you maybe seen reading 

280
00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,640
records as all this discussion 
about reading records and how 

281
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,960
effective they are, But how many
times have you said, well, 

282
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,720
there's only so much we can do? 
Yeah, I mean loads of times 

283
00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,280
because because if the family 
don't read with a child, then 

284
00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,560
like I can't be that family role
for do you know what? 

285
00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:06,560
I mean, and do you find I found 
a lot in that time as well, I've

286
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:09,160
had less and less and less time 
to sit just one to one and 

287
00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:10,880
listen to a child reading. 
Oh, yeah, that's a big I've 

288
00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,400
we're kind of flitting over a 
lot of the barriers I think 

289
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:14,360
we're going to talk about in a 
minute. 

290
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,040
But yeah, that's another, that's
another big thing. 

291
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:17,560
You know, how many roles can we 
be? 

292
00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:19,560
We've had a whole conversation 
about what role should a teacher

293
00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:21,800
be in a school? 
Like, are we there to help them 

294
00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,320
use cutlery? 
You know, are we there to be 

295
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:25,640
their home, do the homework with
them? 

296
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:26,800
Are we there to do the home 
reading with them? 

297
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,120
It's like there's only so much 
you can do. 

298
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,840
And like you said, when time in 
school is whittled down by other

299
00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,800
curriculum stresses and and 
forces that be, it's really hard

300
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,240
to build in a bit of time where 
you say, yeah, I'm going to read

301
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,400
with, I don't know, U six kids 
today, I'm going to do U six 

302
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,520
kids the next day I'm going to 
do a good 5 minutes one to one. 

303
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,000
That used to, that definitely 
used to be more of a thing. 

304
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,680
I think that's a huge thing I 
have personally seen in decline 

305
00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:48,680
even in 10 years. 
That's one thing I can put my 

306
00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:50,880
finger on and say, Oh yeah, that
thing is gone. 

307
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,840
That thing is gone. 
I'm sure some schools still 

308
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,560
manage it, but at great cost. 
At a greater cost than it would 

309
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,480
have been 10 years ago. 
And the biggest, biggest shame 

310
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,200
from that is that those children
who aren't getting that support 

311
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,960
from home have then lost that in
school as well. 

312
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:05,920
And those children aren't being 
listened to read enough. 

313
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,800
And I think we have to put that 
centre stage. 

314
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,600
So let's go into our first kind 
of barrier here then. 

315
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,880
Like what, why, why is it that 
children enjoyment for reading 

316
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,720
levels have decreased then? 
And they just have, they've got 

317
00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,560
lower. 
So the first thing we want to 

318
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:23,440
talk about is access. 
And I, I wanted to just mention 

319
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,600
this because I was listening to 
Rachel Reeves talk a few weeks 

320
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,960
ago and she was talking about 
how the government are going to 

321
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:31,320
have a push on reading. 
They're going to have a real 

322
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:32,760
push and make it a year of 
reading. 

323
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,800
And, and it's fantastic. 
You, you can't, you can't 

324
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,400
discredit that. 
You know, the fact we're talking

325
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,120
about it is really good. 
But one line really stuck with 

326
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:40,960
me because it, it kind of 
shocked me. 

327
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,080
And it was said in a way where 
isn't this great? 

328
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,360
And the only thing I could think
of was what on earth? 

329
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,920
How is this not already a thing?
So Rachel Reeve said by the end 

330
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,760
of this parliament, every single
primary school will have a 

331
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,560
library. 
What do you think my first 

332
00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:01,640
thought was? 
Schools don't have libraries in 

333
00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,160
2025 if. 
I just had to think if I was 

334
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,560
starting from scratch and 
building a school from something

335
00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:08,600
that didn't exist. 
Right. 

336
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:09,280
Yeah. 
OK. 

337
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,560
You'd have your classrooms. 
You'd have your lunch hall where

338
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:13,360
you can eat your lunch. 
You'd have a car park for the 

339
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:14,080
staff. 
Yeah. 

340
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:15,360
You'd have all those things. 
An office. 

341
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:16,320
You need an office. 
Yeah. 

342
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,760
Very much at the top of that 
list would be the first thing I 

343
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,240
think about in terms of teaching
and learning would be, well, we 

344
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,840
need a hub for reading, right? 
Because reading is by far and 

345
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:25,720
away the most. 
Important thing. 

346
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,880
It's non negotable, isn't it? 
It's like in the same way I 

347
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,640
obviously need a hall, right to 
do assemblies and things, I need

348
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,920
a library as well. 
Like they just, they just, it 

349
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,600
doesn't even, you can't even 
like, I can't fathom the idea 

350
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,200
that's not on that first list. 
So here's here's the statistic 

351
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,720
of how many state schools, state
primary schools don't have a 

352
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,640
library. 
One in seven, one in seven state

353
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,040
schools don't have a library, 
and that rises to one in four 

354
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,240
not having a library in 
disadvantaged areas. 

355
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,000
Oh, wow. 
So children coming from poorer 

356
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,240
backgrounds are less likely to 
have access to a library in 

357
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,360
their school. 
Now, I want to make something 

358
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,400
really clear. 
This doesn't mean there are 

359
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,720
schools out there where children
don't get books, OK? 

360
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,080
This is very much at the core of
what we're talking about here, 

361
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:05,720
which is reading for enjoyment, 
OK? 

362
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,240
I think there is a difference 
between a child going into 

363
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,760
school and having their book 
changed once or twice a week in 

364
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,480
the book bag, and now we're on a
red band and then we're on the 

365
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:13,160
purple band. 
OK. 

366
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,440
I think that's happening in most
schools because you've got to go

367
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,800
through the reading levels and 
get better at reading and 

368
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,120
improve. 
What we're talking about here is

369
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,360
if you think about reading for 
enjoyment and getting readers 

370
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,440
ready for society and getting 
them to find what they love and 

371
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,560
just reading for the sake of 
reading, which is really 

372
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,520
important. 
A library is essential to that. 

373
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,080
Like that you need to be able to
go into a library and see that 

374
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,480
these things exist. 
There are bookshelves upon 

375
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,200
bookshelves of books. 
And I might not like all of 

376
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,160
these books, and I certainly 
don't want to read that genre 

377
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:43,320
over there. 
Well, I'm not going to read 

378
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:44,480
them. 
That's just not for me. 

379
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,960
But this, Oh my gosh, this book.
And next to it, there's going to

380
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,880
have things by the same author. 
But this is all, it's in 

381
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,040
alphabetical order, is it? 
And there are genres around. 

382
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,440
And I might go over here and 
there's a corner over there 

383
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,640
where there's some lovely 
plushies and a nice comfortable 

384
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,200
place where I can just sit and 
read. 

385
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,720
When I was at primary school, I 
was in a relatively new primary 

386
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,000
school. 
I'd only been built for about 5 

387
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,120
years when I joined. 
And when I was in year 3 or year

388
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,960
4, I remember this so well. 
And it's, it's backing up what 

389
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,840
you're saying. 
I remember them building a new 

390
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,000
library inside of our school. 
They actually, it was like, it 

391
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,160
was like a loft conversion. 
It was a space that was just, 

392
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,560
you know, schools are really 
tall in the corridors. 

393
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,880
There was just this massive 
space, like upward space. 

394
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,240
And I'm like, should we just put
a staircase in and just make a 

395
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,560
massive library up here? 
And it was unreal. 

396
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,040
I still remember it to this day 
vividly because I remember going

397
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,480
to it for the first time and it 
was kitted out with beanbags. 

398
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,280
It's all colourful, like you 
said there was John was all over

399
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,760
the place because I can't what 
we had before that we either 

400
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,280
didn't have a proper library or 
it was like a really small sort 

401
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,440
of shoddy 1. 
Well, quite often it's it's like

402
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:43,720
bookshelves in the corridor 
kind. 

403
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:44,720
Of yeah, that definitely was a 
thing. 

404
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,360
Yeah, we had, we had like a lot 
of our classes were linked. 

405
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,880
They come in twos and we'd have 
like this a shared area in 

406
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,440
between them and they had just a
kind of makeshift bookshelf in 

407
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:54,840
there. 
They had a had a good amount of 

408
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,120
books in there, but it wasn't a 
library. 

409
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,760
That's exactly what I mean here.
And I'm saying I'm not. 

410
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,480
What I'm not saying is I don't 
want anyone to think that one in

411
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,760
seven schools aren't getting 
books sent home because they 

412
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,000
have a library, has like a hub 
for reading and a place to go 

413
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,599
through. 
I just feel like if we're, if 

414
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:11,880
we're going to have this, you 
know, year of reading, I think 

415
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,040
it's a really, really good aim 
from the government. 

416
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,839
I'm going to give them their 
dues, whether to say that by the

417
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:18,880
end of the Parliament we're 
going to have a library in every

418
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:19,800
school. 
I don't know how we're going to 

419
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,440
achieve that. 
I don't know how we're going to 

420
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:22,520
find space for that. 
We're going to have. 

421
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,240
We need to put our money where 
our mouth is, but it has to be 

422
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,800
put in a pedestal that reading 
for the sake of reading and for 

423
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,720
the sake of enjoyment is itself 
enough. 

424
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,320
And we don't have to track 
everything against end of key 

425
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,840
stage 2 SAT papers. 
We don't have to track 

426
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,160
everything against Are they 
improving in their retrieval and

427
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:40,280
their inference and their 
summary? 

428
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,520
And is the teacher making sure 
that when they're picking a 

429
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,560
book, they're asking them a 
summary question every 3 pages 

430
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,160
and then there's a prediction 
question at the end of every 

431
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,880
chapter? 
So we're going to do that. 

432
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,920
We're going to. 
It's important to have that 

433
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,400
knowledge when you're reading 
with the child. 

434
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,240
But like we said, there's not 
enough time to do that every 

435
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,040
time. 
Do you know what is good and is 

436
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,280
more than enough? 
And is a brilliant use of our 

437
00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,440
money as a society is to have 
places for children to be safe 

438
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,840
and warm and love reading. 
I agree. 

439
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:06,040
And I just going back to the 
point you mentioned, because I 

440
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,240
will die on this hill and I've 
mentioned this podcast and I'll 

441
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,520
mention it again. 
You could even strip out all the

442
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,680
stuff about, oh, we haven't. 
We're doing retrieval questions 

443
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:14,720
today and now we're learning 
inference. 

444
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,080
Now we're doing three more 
questions. 

445
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,080
I still firmly believe you could
not even have that exist in the 

446
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,000
curriculum and just focus on 
getting kids to like books. 

447
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,400
And they will still pass 
whatever thresholds we make for 

448
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,720
them, whatever SAT exam, 
whatever stupid bars we set 

449
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,240
because enjoyment for reading 
transcends all of it. 

450
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,200
It's so much more important. 
So yes, access to books and 

451
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,520
having a library and a place to 
love learning couldn't be more 

452
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,480
important. 
How many times just to finish on

453
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:38,960
that point, because you've 
really struck A chord with me 

454
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,080
there. 
Have you got your new class and 

455
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,680
you spend a couple of weeks your
class? 

456
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,880
You get to know them and you do 
start to notice those children 

457
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,320
who just have an absolute love 
for reading and have access to 

458
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,960
different genres and have that. 
Whether it's a home life that 

459
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,960
they've got built up around them
where they're able to do that, 

460
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,440
or maybe they've just piqued an 
interest and you just think to 

461
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,760
yourself, they're going to get 
expected. 

462
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,080
Yeah, they're going to get 
greater depth in their reading. 

463
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,720
And, and there is so many 
children who have achieved 

464
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,760
greater depth under my teaching 
where I more than ever, a more 

465
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,280
bigger ratio, let's say, has 
been down to the fact that child

466
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:16,840
has read so much. 
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

467
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:18,680
Way more than whatever input 
I've put in. 

468
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,320
Yeah, I, I often, I often joke 
about it in sort of like it's 

469
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,800
quite, quite pessimistic, right?
But I'll joke about it because 

470
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,600
I've been here 6 for years where
we'll say we'll celebrate our 

471
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,320
greater depth. 
Oh, this kid got greater depth 

472
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:31,720
or this kid got expected. 
I was like, yeah, they would 

473
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,720
have done if we taught them 
nothing because they love 

474
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,920
reading like that. 
It's just, I just try and ground

475
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,520
it a bit where it's like, yeah, 
I didn't do that, I didn't do 

476
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,080
that. 
They came into my class loving 

477
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,440
reading, reading books that are 
like 4 years above them already.

478
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,200
They could have not taken part 
in any of my lessons where we 

479
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,320
sat there and unpicked how to do
free mark questions. 

480
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,960
It was boring rubbish and they 
still would have got greater 

481
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,240
depth because they can read. 
That's the point. 

482
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:54,600
They can read really well. 
Yeah. 

483
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,960
So you know, when we're thinking
of what's higher on this 

484
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,720
pedestal, we can worry and and 
fret and I get why leaders do 

485
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,440
about SAT results and then we 
need to be doing lots of SAT 

486
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,000
prep and exact test style 
questions. 

487
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,640
I understand why, but I do just 
think you don't have to do that.

488
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:09,800
I completely agree. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

489
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,360
Normally what comes, what it 
comes down to is we haven't got 

490
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:14,480
enough time now to get this 
child to love reading because 

491
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,640
they're they're 9 already and 
we've not done it yet. 

492
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,840
So what can we do to make any 
impact on their data? 

493
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,720
The one thing you can do is 
teach them lessons like that to 

494
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,320
try and make a little 5%, just 
just get them over that hill. 

495
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,400
So they pass the test is and it 
and it just becomes about tests,

496
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,960
you know, and we're going to 
talk about tests in a minute. 

497
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,560
So, yeah, access to books 
really, really important. 

498
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:34,920
Let's talk about the second 
thing I'll issue. 

499
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,240
So the second thing is something
you you mentioned earlier, but 

500
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,880
let's go into a bit more detail.
Just not being read to. 

501
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,840
So like it's just real. 
Not not every child is being 

502
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,840
read to at home. 
I'm talking about here and at 

503
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,200
school because you even 
mentioned how in the curriculum 

504
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,480
we're losing time at school to 
read as well. 

505
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,360
Yeah, I can. 
I can just say now as a teacher,

506
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,480
through no fault of my own, I'm 
not, I'm not making this choice.

507
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,000
And it's we can point a thing 
wherever we like, you know, let 

508
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,080
the viewers decide on listeners 
to decide of where the problem 

509
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,160
is. 
But it is literally I spend less

510
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,800
time sat listening to children 
read than I did 10 years ago. 

511
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:10,760
And that's a fact. 
That's a fact. 

512
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,200
Yeah, so I've got a stat for you
here. 

513
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,200
So there's a huge difference 
between children who are read to

514
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,320
regularly and children who are 
not read to or read to very 

515
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,760
rarely in terms of how much they
then go and read independently, 

516
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,480
right. 
So this stat says only 13% of 5 

517
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,600
to 11 year olds read daily if 
they're read too rarely. 

518
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,000
And that goes up to 66% of those
children will read regularly by 

519
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,680
themselves if they're read too 
daily. 

520
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,680
So what I'm trying to get here, 
because that's quite a confusing

521
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,600
stat, is that children that are 
read to regularly then go ahead,

522
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,560
go away and read to themselves 
as well. 

523
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,080
So it's just highlighting the 
impact of reading with and to 

524
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,200
your children. 
Like I think sometimes the two 

525
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,200
gets forgotten. 
They think, oh, all we have to 

526
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,160
do. 
By they, I just mean all of us. 

527
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,480
We think, oh, yeah, we, we have 
to just listen to the children 

528
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:57,280
read. 
That's how they get better 

529
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:58,080
reading. 
What is it? 

530
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:00,640
And sometimes people dismiss the
idea that if you read to them, 

531
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,280
that's not helping them. 
No, it does. 

532
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,000
Because remember, we've 
established that reading for 

533
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,600
enjoyment is already a huge 
factor in how well children can 

534
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,920
read. 
And reading to them makes them 

535
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:11,280
enjoy reading more. 
It's like, it's just like 

536
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:12,600
another. 
It's a step removed. 

537
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,560
Yeah, find that maybe they're 
not sat there and decoding 

538
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,720
words, whatever, doesn't matter.
But they're enjoying reading 

539
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,600
because then they go away and 
read more themselves and. 

540
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,360
I'm not being funny, they start.
You know, my children are like, 

541
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:23,760
they're like sponges and they'll
read along with you. 

542
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:24,760
That'll be what watching you 
read. 

543
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,920
And there'll be words they don't
see or understand, and they'll 

544
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,400
hear you say them out loud. 
And this is a battle. 

545
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,160
I've had a lot with parents over
the years. 

546
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,160
And sometimes you accept it and 
you say, OK, yeah, you're not 

547
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:35,560
going to read as much of your 
children. 

548
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,560
And sometimes you don't. 
You say, well, actually, do you 

549
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:38,920
know what? 
Reading to them will really 

550
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,080
help. 
And it's this whole idea of, OK,

551
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,720
I don't have time to read with 
my child, OK. 

552
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,000
And parents will say, I just 
have time. 

553
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,600
So, you know, in the car in the 
morning on the way to school, 

554
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,760
they've got their book. 
They read out loud to me. 

555
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,760
I'm driving to school. 
And then I, I quickly sign their

556
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,200
book. 
There's a place for that. 

557
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:55,840
I'm not saying that's bad, 
that's great. 

558
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:56,960
You listen to your children 
better. 

559
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,400
Nothing, right? 
It's absolutely better than 

560
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,280
nothing. 
And on its own it can have a 

561
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,120
good impact. 
Okay, absolutely. 

562
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:05,120
It's good in its own right, but 
you just, you just can't get 

563
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:10,120
past an experienced reader, 
someone who's an adult quite 

564
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,680
often reading to a child, 
putting on voices, making it 

565
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,560
silly, making it funny, not 
having to stop every two 

566
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,880
sentences and say what do you 
think will happen next or what? 

567
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,040
Just that is so good. 
And I don't want anyone to, you 

568
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,560
know, just hear this bit of me 
saying that and go, oh, no, no, 

569
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,720
it is good to question stuff and
I get that, but it's not really 

570
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,720
what I'm talking about here. 
I'm talking about reading for 

571
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,440
enjoyment. 
And I used to love sitting 

572
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,440
there. 
And my mum would read me books 

573
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,720
when I went to bed. 
And I, everybody remembered 

574
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:38,840
them. 
I talked about one book that my 

575
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,880
teacher read to me. 
I would find time at the end of 

576
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,200
every day. 
And it's called Beaver Towers. 

577
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,920
And I remember it now. 
And I remember there were three 

578
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,720
characters who were mechanics. 
Do you know what their names 

579
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,600
were? 
Go on, Nick and. 

580
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,120
And Nick. 
And I remember it so vividly 

581
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:56,640
thinking, oh, that's hilarious. 
And I was so hooked by this, 

582
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,040
like, fancy story of boy being 
whisked, whisked away by a kite 

583
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,160
to this island. 
Yeah, and it wasn't, it wasn't 

584
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,880
there me going, oh, my teacher 
just asked me about the 

585
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,080
intentions of this character. 
And that's really enjoyment. 

586
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,720
That's full of enjoyment to me. 
No, I just wanted to hear a 

587
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,400
story. 
And I wanted to hear my teacher 

588
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,520
put on the funny voices. 
And I wanted to be transported 

589
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,920
into this world and really, 
really enjoy it. 

590
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,280
And that has value in itself. 
And we talk about not being read

591
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:23,960
to. 
And we're kind of going the 

592
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,480
angle of parents here. 
And I know it's tricky with time

593
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,040
at home. 
And we're in a society now 

594
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,880
that's very different, where 
both parents are often working 

595
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,320
and you do get less and there's 
time with your children and 

596
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,440
you've given them food and oh 
gosh, it's bedtime, right? 

597
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,080
Let's go and read a book. 
And I've got 3 kids. 

598
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:38,440
I can't read, I can't listen to 
them all. 

599
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,040
I completely get all of that. 
But we have to, we have to be 

600
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,920
really clear that it is on a 
pedestal though. 

601
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,240
If there's one thing you're 
going to do with your children, 

602
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,880
read with them. 
Yeah, I think, I think that's 

603
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,520
the thing, isn't it? 
You know, we can be sympathetic 

604
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,960
and also say, do you know what, 
it might just be a priority 

605
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,200
shift in your household. 
Maybe there's something else 

606
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,120
that they do do or you do do 
with them or they do 

607
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:59,160
independently, whatever, that 
maybe maybe that just needs to 

608
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:00,960
be swapped in for a bit of 
reading time. 

609
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,200
I don't know. 
So you know how I said at the 

610
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,720
beginning, we should go back to 
thinking about me as a kid and 

611
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:05,800
how what maybe would have 
helped? 

612
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,560
So you talked about you being a 
kid and having your mum read to 

613
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,360
you and that thing your teacher 
reading I, my household when 

614
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:14,160
we're not readers. 
So my, I lived with my mum, my 

615
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,760
sister and my stepdad. 
No one reads in my household. 

616
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,280
So that was one thing. 
I think if that, if that was 

617
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,240
different, I think that could 
have played into my mind a bit 

618
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,320
more if I saw my parents reading
or if we read as a family. 

619
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,680
We, we just didn't do that. 
It wasn't a thing. 

620
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,360
But picking up books like that, 
we did the reading that we had 

621
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:32,280
to do for school and my mum 
would always just doing like my 

622
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,480
3 readings a week, whatever, get
my reading record signed and it 

623
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,760
would always be me reading to 
her. 

624
00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:37,400
But that was it. 
Do you know what I mean? 

625
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,280
And, and I do wonder if if I saw
my mum reading for an hour or my

626
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,840
stepdad or my sister, whatever, 
then maybe I'd pick up a book as

627
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,000
well. 
So that's definitely a thing 

628
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,760
that helps. 
And, and the second thing is, 

629
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,760
yeah, in schools as educators, I
think if we think about 

630
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,440
solutions as to this as well, a 
solution to this is we have to 

631
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,600
fight for time in the classroom.
Let's get that time back. 

632
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:56,960
Or maybe your school already 
does it. 

633
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,040
Protect that time because 
reading to your class, we've 

634
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,400
just established the positive 
impacts that can have on them. 

635
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:04,760
Don't think, oh, it's wasted 
time. 

636
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,480
It's not them learning, it's not
them answering questions, it's 

637
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,840
not them independently reading. 
It's not them decoding to an 

638
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,480
adult. 
No, no, it is a fantastic 

639
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:13,760
opportunity. 
If they're not getting it at 

640
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,880
home, they can at least get it 
in the one place we definitely 

641
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,200
can control, which is with you, 
the educator at school. 

642
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,400
Absolutely. 
I want to move on to another 

643
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,760
barrier here because it links 
with what we're just saying 

644
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,880
about school. 
So I want to talk about this 

645
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,160
barrier we have in terms of the 
perception of reading as work 

646
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:31,720
like you've just spoken about 
there. 

647
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,280
And I think that plays into why 
that time is being squeezed and 

648
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,560
squeezed and squeezed and 
squeezed. 

649
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,040
It plays into that fact that we 
think to ourselves, Oh my gosh, 

650
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,160
I've just read to my class for 
20 minutes. 

651
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,800
There's nothing on the paper. 
I've not done a test style 

652
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,840
question. 
I've not done any inference with

653
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,160
them and seen if they would be 
able to answer something when it

654
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,200
comes up in a test. 
That is killing reading for 

655
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,400
enjoyment in my opinion, because
it's no longer reading for 

656
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,160
enjoyment, it's reading for 
passing a test. 

657
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,600
It's reading for answering a 
question type that might come up

658
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,640
in the future. 
And I understand why it's 

659
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,240
important and I know why we do 
it. 

660
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,600
And I'm not saying we should 
never ever do any retrieval 

661
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,320
questions or what inference work
or predictions. 

662
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:13,560
I am you really. 
Yeah, you're a bit more extreme 

663
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,120
than me in terms of you do far 
less of it. 

664
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,760
I still think it's important to 
do, but I just think you have to

665
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,920
separate them and you have to 
accept that on it's own, stand 

666
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,800
alone, reading a book because 
it's just a fun book to read is 

667
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,920
having an impact which is enough
on it's own. 

668
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,080
I agree. 
I think all I need to add to 

669
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,760
that is we just, we just need to
check ourselves. 

670
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,640
Seriously, we just need to stop 
and think. 

671
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,280
Like think, if you're listening 
to this, you're an educator. 

672
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,880
How obsessed have is your school
or maybe yourself with 

673
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,920
measuring, with measuring stuff?
Like we talk about this all the 

674
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,520
time on the podcast. 
How obsessed have we become as a

675
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,280
measurement culture? 
If we can't measure it, it 

676
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,000
doesn't matter. 
Like, let's just calm down for a

677
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,440
minute and maybe individually 
you can take yourself out of 

678
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,200
that and be like, right, what am
I really giving the kids in my 

679
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,360
class? 
Is there something I can do? 

680
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:02,400
Maybe it's a little bit sneaky, 
but is can I give them 5 minutes

681
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,280
the end of the day where I don't
do this, have a thing for 5 

682
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,040
minutes and I let them read 
their book? 

683
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,640
I don't know, 5 minutes maybe 
isn't enough. 

684
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,360
But I think we just need to 
stop, reflect as a school, as an

685
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,000
individual, and make a change. 
That's like, what else can we 

686
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,400
do? 
We have to change something. 

687
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,760
Yeah, completely. 
And it's that obsession with 

688
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,680
being able to see what impact 
it's had. 

689
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,960
I think, come on. 
OK, we can. 

690
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,160
If we did this, we would 
probably see an impact on 

691
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,960
reading scores in general, like 
you said earlier, because if 

692
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,920
children enjoy reading more, 
they're going to go and pick up 

693
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,040
a book and read the rest of the 
series and improve as a reader. 

694
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,760
But it's going to be really hard
to track actually what's 

695
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:36,800
happening there. 
But it. 

696
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,040
But the point being, it doesn't 
matter. 

697
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,960
Yeah, we are professional enough
and have been trained in enough 

698
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,640
in, in, in education and seeing 
the impact that reading for 

699
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,120
enjoyment has that as a like as 
a kind of culture in our school,

700
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,680
we can do that and say to 
ourselves, no, I know this is 

701
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,000
having an impact. 
No, I can't point to a 

702
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,720
spreadsheet which tells you the 
percentage of enjoyment for 

703
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,000
reading of each children, how 
it's moved and it's accelerated 

704
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,560
progress. 
No, I can't do that. 

705
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,120
Does it mean it's not a good 
thing? 

706
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,200
No, just have some time for 
reading and if it means you 

707
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,040
don't do a specific thing in 
your afternoon curriculum, more 

708
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,080
So what? 
Yeah, I agree. 

709
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,880
So so far, I feel like we're 
kind of talking about solutions 

710
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,560
as we go, right? 
We've had a lot of solutions. 

711
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,520
You know, I say very lightly, we
need more money for libraries. 

712
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,360
We need to maybe enrich parent 
culture a bit more. 

713
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,720
And there's lots of ways you can
do that culture at home with 

714
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,320
reading. 
And we're also saying in the 

715
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:29,680
classroom, there's some things 
we can do as well. 

716
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,280
There's one more thing before we
talk about the big 1, and I feel

717
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,320
like people will be waiting for 
the big one about screen time is

718
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,200
what just interested me when I 
was when I was doing a bit of 

719
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,240
research is representation. 
So here's a stat for you. 

720
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,720
Only one in six books in 2023 
featured A racially minoritized 

721
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,320
character, which was down from 
one in three in 2022. 

722
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,040
So there's only a one year 
difference there. 

723
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,720
Maybe it's a weirdest. 
Than a year. 

724
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,680
But it just made me think it was
always less about the stat. 

725
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,080
It was more about, Oh yeah, do 
you know what? 

726
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,760
How much does that come into 
play, just being represented in 

727
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:01,760
books? 
How much does you know? 

728
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,440
How much will that affect a 
child picking up a book? 

729
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,080
And to me, it's, I think it's 
fairly obvious. 

730
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,920
It's like representation's 
always been a thing, Like we've 

731
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,200
always harped on about we should
probably represent everybody and

732
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,080
things because that's how we 
connect the characters. 

733
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,280
That's how we connect to books. 
So I just think it was a, it was

734
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:17,760
a, it was a small point. 
I don't know if you want to add 

735
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,520
anything to it, but I just think
it's interesting when we're in 

736
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,080
this discussion to consider the 
idea that from a, from an 

737
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,080
author's perspective, if you're 
an author listening to this, 

738
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,320
because we've got lots of 
different avenues of solutions 

739
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:27,960
here, from money to schools to 
parents. 

740
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,120
As authors, it should just be 
down to are we representing 

741
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,440
children in a fairway so that 
children from different groups 

742
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,840
are seeing themselves in books 
and then wanting to pick up that

743
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,520
book or that series and read 
more. 

744
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,840
I think it's pretty obvious from
when I see children get hooked 

745
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,840
on books then OK, listen, 
children aren't a 10 year old 

746
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,200
girl from, you know, South 
London is not just only going to

747
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,960
read books about 10 year old 
girls from South London. 

748
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,360
That's not what we're saying. 
Or who who profiles with them 

749
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,360
racially and their age and their
interests and stuff. 

750
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,200
OK, obviously we know that's not
true. 

751
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,760
We know children are going to 
read a large variety of genres 

752
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,400
and books, but we're talking 
about increasing children 

753
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,200
interested in what they're 
reading. 

754
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,600
They're going to be picking up 
books of things they're 

755
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,520
interested in. 
I just think about some of the 

756
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,600
boys who I've taught recently 
who are obsessed with football 

757
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,080
don't necessarily like reading 
that much. 

758
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,000
And this is a subset of boys 
because there's lots of boys who

759
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,240
love reading, but that subset of
boys found a whole series of 

760
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,080
autobiographies about famous 
footballers, OK, Immediately 

761
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,240
that represented their 
interests. 

762
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:28,560
OK. 
So, yeah, OK, we're talking 

763
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,600
about representation in general.
And I think that's really, 

764
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,840
really important because what 
you don't want is book after 

765
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,240
book after book after book of 
characters around your age but 

766
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,280
aren't really representing your 
society or your background or 

767
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:41,680
where you've come from, what you
are. 

768
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,760
We need that to happen. 
And anyone who sat there saying 

769
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,400
anything along the lines of rich
not important, who cares what 

770
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:49,640
it. 
Yeah, yeah, who cares? 

771
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,000
It sounds like you care. 
Sounds like you care that it's 

772
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,880
changing, actually. 
So if your point is, who cares 

773
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,680
what colour or background 
someone is? 

774
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,280
Don't care, then if it's 
changing, why would you care? 

775
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,320
You clearly do care. 
So don't worry about it, mate, 

776
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,760
because the only reason that 
it's going to be picked up more 

777
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,680
is because it is important for 
some people, yeah. 

778
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,920
And if you don't think it's 
important, it's usually from a 

779
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,800
place of you've got enough of 
that representation already. 

780
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,040
Yeah. 
So it's if it's not a problem 

781
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,120
for you, then then it doesn't 
mean it's not a problem for 

782
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:15,680
someone else. 
Yeah. 

783
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,920
And I just think it's it's hard 
to argue against. 

784
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,760
I think it's really important. 
Why would we not do that in our 

785
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,800
books and our genres, etcetera? 
And again, if we've got a 

786
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,920
fantasy book about Centaur, OK, 
yeah, then yeah, there are no 

787
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,120
centaurs out. 
There, well, I don't know I've. 

788
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,600
Been thinking about myself 
actually if we think about this 

789
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,600
podcast recording, we never see 
your bottom half no if you could

790
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,000
be half or. 
There's not actually a chair 

791
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,520
behind me, I will just say that 
right now. 

792
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,320
But my point here is it is 
important. 

793
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:44,840
It's strange. 
There was a dip. 

794
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,600
I think also sure, 
representation of characters and

795
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:48,720
backgrounds and things like 
that. 

796
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,120
But you know, you've only got to
think about, I'm going to say 

797
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,200
his name, David Walliams books 
and those, those those 

798
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,800
stereotypes and the jokes, 
etcetera. 

799
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,080
Yeah, OK. 
It's for an adult audience who 

800
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:00,920
get the nuance and maybe can 
understand it. 

801
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,840
OK. 
There might be something where 

802
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,480
you say it's fine for a kid. 
It's insane some of the things 

803
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,400
that are in that book and it's 
just not acceptable. 

804
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,640
So you do just have to have a 
line with children. 

805
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,040
I think we all agree that. 
But yeah, I think I think it's 

806
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,720
absolutely important. 
And my point I was going to say 

807
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,400
is I also think we need 
representation in terms of the 

808
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,360
authors themselves and their 
backgrounds and their 

809
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,080
experiences from where they've 
come from, because they're going

810
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,360
to tell different stories. 
Because what good authors do is 

811
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,840
take their experiences and their
thoughts and their ideas and put

812
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,680
it through characters and 
storylines and plots. 

813
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,040
So if we managed to diversify 
that even more, it's only going 

814
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,920
to increase and make better the 
pool of reading for our 

815
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,400
children, which will only 
increasing and get better the 

816
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,160
reading for enjoyment levels. 
Yeah, definitely. 

817
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,800
Quick thing you can do as an 
educator right now or not maybe 

818
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,680
right now, but when you're next 
in school, No, no, right now is 

819
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,080
is just do a genuinely like do a
bit of an audit. 

820
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:51,960
You don't have to take it super 
seriously, but just have a look.

821
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,360
Have a look at if you've got a 
little class library, all there 

822
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,160
is a share area library or there
is a proper library. 

823
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,520
Maybe that's a bit too much of a
big job. 

824
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,160
It might be a librarians job, 
but it could just be worth 

825
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,120
having a look is is there a fair
portion of representation, 

826
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,440
proportion of representation in 
your in your access to books? 

827
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,719
You know your school. 
Especially if if you look at, 

828
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,280
you know, your cohort. 
Yeah. 

829
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,800
Is it representative of the 
children that it's kind of, you 

830
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,880
know, you're feeding them these 
books and saying, go on, kids 

831
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,199
enjoy these books, You've got to
meet their needs. 

832
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:19,880
And yeah, representation is 
important. 

833
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,159
But also have an audit of what 
they're interested in. 

834
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,800
Yeah. 
Oh, half my cohort love graphic 

835
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,840
novels, comic books, and it's 2%
of my library. 

836
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,679
OK. 
If I'm really taking seriously 

837
00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:33,199
this enjoyment for reading, I 
have to represent not only the 

838
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:35,560
people that I'm serving, but 
also the interests. 

839
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:36,440
Yeah, sure. 
We have to get. 

840
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,520
That and, and, and there is a 
level of presumption and you 

841
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,280
can't, you can't know everything
about what people are interested

842
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,159
in. 
I want to pick up one point 

843
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:42,400
because I know you'll be like, 
oh, here we go. 

844
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:44,560
Earlier on you said you had a 
bunch of boys who are interested

845
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,040
in football. 
So should we, we've got a lot of

846
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,960
boys in my classroom. 
Should I just be then going out 

847
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,760
and getting tonnes of football 
books and assuming that's all 

848
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:50,639
they want? 
Exactly. 

849
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,560
No, you want you want to expose 
them to lots, but we're talking 

850
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,239
about gateways of getting 
children reading. 

851
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:56,760
Yeah, OK. 
You have to meet them where they

852
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,360
are. 
You know, like, like people who 

853
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,680
sneer audio books and they'll 
sneer at the comic books that 

854
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,520
I've been talking about all the 
sneer at the non fiction 

855
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,400
autobiographies of these 
footballers. 

856
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:05,800
And you know, and it could be a 
girl. 

857
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,680
Of course, I'm not making up. 
But I'm just saying from my 

858
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,000
experience that this was a 
gateway for the children to get 

859
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,280
reading more. 
And we have to meet them there 

860
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,640
to get them reading more first. 
Because once that's unlocked, 

861
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,000
you can shift them, you can 
point them in other directions, 

862
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,960
you can get them reading more. 
But I, I ultimately I want the 

863
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,240
children to read and me meeting 
them where their interests are, 

864
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,520
if that gets them reading, 
that's the first part of my job.

865
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:29,400
So. 
There's the other thing that 

866
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,560
could have done with me as a kid
then you mentioned this earlier.

867
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,840
I think if some educators had 
maybe just better fostered what 

868
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,080
I clearly enjoyed, reading, 
which was quite niche reading. 

869
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,720
Teachers listening to I'm just. 
A little bit. 

870
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:43,200
I'm just saying. 
Just saying, teachers, come on, 

871
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:44,400
I don't enjoy reading now it's 
your fault. 

872
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,720
It's not if it is one factor. 
I think if maybe there was a bit

873
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:49,680
more representation for the 
stuff I liked reading in class 

874
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,840
other than that literal one 
science book that I remember so 

875
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,120
well, I I might have picked up 
more books. 

876
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,560
I don't know, maybe. 
Interesting. 

877
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,680
Let's go to the last one then. 
Something that people might be 

878
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,480
talking about a lot and thinking
about if we've got this 

879
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,080
decreased massive interest in 
reading and people aren't 

880
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,000
reading for enjoyment as much as
possible, what's changed in the 

881
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:07,720
last 20 years? 
I'm just gonna check my phone. 

882
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:08,720
Hang on. 
Have a look. 

883
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,680
I don't know, let me just get my
iPad where I've got my notes for

884
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,880
this podcast. 
I think what I'll do that thing 

885
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,240
that we always do when, when I 
pick up my phone to do one thing

886
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:16,760
and I immediately get distracted
by other things. 

887
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,080
And then suddenly I'm on just 
doing reals. 

888
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,200
I'm scrolling and oh, I just 
actually opened it to check an 

889
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,720
e-mail to see if an Amazon 
delivery was on the way. 

890
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,840
And now I'm suddenly on Tiktok. 
And you spent 15 minutes doing 

891
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,160
anything but put your phone down
and go, what was I doing? 

892
00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:29,720
What was, I think, Oh yeah. 
And then you do it again. 

893
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,040
We joke about it because we do 
it and it's and it's madness and

894
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,240
we're adults, children. 
I just, it's going to sound 

895
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:39,800
really boomerish, I know, but 
Greens, no. 

896
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,000
I'm. 
Going to be really specific 

897
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,880
because I know you'll open me up
and I agree on this by the way, 

898
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,080
because it's hard. 
You've got to distinguish 

899
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,520
between it, not screens. 
Social media and particular apps

900
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,200
that children have access to on 
screens are absolutely 

901
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,000
destroying their brains. 
Absolutely. 

902
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,800
It is rotting their brains. 
It is rotting their attention 

903
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,440
spans. 
Yeah, you, you forgot that I 

904
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,680
started thinking about scrolling
through Tick Tock again. 

905
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,240
I got hooked by the idea of 
that. 

906
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:03,920
I think we have to, we have to 
explore this. 

907
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,560
We have to go into this. 
OK, Yeah, because you're 

908
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,040
absolutely right. 
And I think we need to make 

909
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,440
clear to people our opinions as 
well. 

910
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,640
And it's rooted in research and 
what people have seen. 

911
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,080
As for ABBC article recently 
talking about this, and there is

912
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,960
a difference and between 
screens, not all screen time is 

913
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,680
equal. 
No, not all screen time is the 

914
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,240
same. 
We cannot just say screen time 

915
00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:25,240
equals bad. 
There's a lot of screen time 

916
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:28,880
that children can have which 
enriches them and and improves 

917
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,680
that. 
Like, for example, if a child 

918
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,640
has a Kindle and they read books
on it, it's not automatically 

919
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:36,840
bad. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

920
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,400
And equivalent to if a child has
an iPad and they're scrolling 

921
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,240
through Instagram for the same 
period of time. 

922
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,320
The algorithm and social media 
and that whole kind of side of 

923
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,600
brain rot. 
And, you know, sticking the kid 

924
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,560
in front of a YouTube, YouTube 
video, which is an hour long and

925
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,160
has loads of flashing lights and
keeps them stimulated and almost

926
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,240
like a zombie for a bit because 
you need to be quiet and just 

927
00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:59,000
stay in the corner. 
That is very, very, very, very, 

928
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,040
very, very different to screen 
time in other ways. 

929
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,680
So just saying, OK, screen 
time's increased in general 

930
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,680
isn't that bad. 
No, But why? 

931
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,640
Why then has technology and 
therefore children having more 

932
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,720
and more screen time? 
Why is that? 

933
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:15,960
Impacting do you think reading 
for enjoyment and the amount of 

934
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,280
that children are reading? 
I think it's the whole dopamine 

935
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,120
thing. 
In all, I think it's the whole 

936
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,800
getting such instant constant 
gratification in your brain 

937
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,320
watching 10 seconds reel after 
10 seconds infinite scroll. 

938
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,440
You know, like people talk about
the even the person that 

939
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,200
invented the infinite scroll was
like, Oh my God, what have I 

940
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,680
done? 
You know, I don't know how true 

941
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,640
that is, but people say that was
it you you hear me? 

942
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,440
What have? 
I done what have I enjoyed 

943
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,480
reading. 
Invented the infinite scroll. 

944
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,600
When I was a kid, yeah, I was 
like, I'll show them. 

945
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,600
I'll make nobody enjoy reading. 
We live in a race to the bottom 

946
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,800
culture. 
You join me? 

947
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,800
No, but I do think that's the 
reason I think reading a book, 

948
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,520
it requires a lot of attention 
over a lot of time. 

949
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,040
It's a lengthy process, 
generally reading. 

950
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,320
Obviously get short books as 
well do. 

951
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,440
You think that's maybe why you 
tend to start a book and don't 

952
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,120
finish it? 
Do you think you're in that 

953
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:06,440
world a bit or I? 
Think even if it's because of 

954
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,200
that, because I've always been 
like that, even if as a kid I'd 

955
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:10,880
I'd try and make myself read 
stuff. 

956
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:12,880
I I just get a bit bored too 
quickly. 

957
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,880
I think I think I. 
So these problems existed 

958
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,560
already is what I'm saying. 
Yeah, 100% So, yeah. 

959
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,400
But do you think that this kind 
of social media algorithm. 

960
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,320
Swiping has exactly because I 
won't pick up a book now. 

961
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,360
That's the difference. 
I mean, in general for people 

962
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:25,920
like this, this is what people 
will say. 

963
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,560
They'll they'll flip it and say 
there's always been children 

964
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,840
like this. 
But but is I think it's 

965
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,480
exacerbated. 
Yeah, I think the stats we've 

966
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,600
gone through a show if it's got 
loads worse, I think they I 

967
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,520
think there's every stat we've 
shown, I think it shows that 

968
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,320
it's always been a problem. 
It's just got a lot worse and 

969
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,800
we're going through the reasons 
it's got a lot worse. 

970
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,880
And I think it'd be mad to 
ignore the fact that, you know, 

971
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,120
once it gets it gets termed as 
iPad kids, whatever. 

972
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:47,840
You know, that whole idea of 
like they're just constantly on 

973
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,360
that they're not that, you know,
they could be reading, they 

974
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,280
could be on a Kindle that looks 
like an iPad and they're reading

975
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:53,680
and some some people go, oh, get
them off that. 

976
00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:54,680
Oh no, that's all right. 
But. 

977
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,960
I'll screen time, but the vast 
majority of it is vast. 

978
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,760
Majority is not it's instant 
gratification really like like 

979
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,680
fast food for media. 
Isn't it it it it's it's clearly

980
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,480
impacting kids attention spans. 
You can see it happening. 

981
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,400
Yeah, Yeah. 
So does that match with what you

982
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:09,680
see over? 
You know, we've talked about how

983
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,680
maybe you said there's been a 
dip in reading for enjoyment, 

984
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,440
but you said the last few years 
even more. 

985
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,840
So do you think that kind of 
tracks with how much social 

986
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,480
media is kind of and we're we're
coming from the primary school 

987
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,640
perspective. 
I must be insane in secondary 

988
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:23,320
schools. 
Yeah. 

989
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,720
Do you think that it kind of it?
Correlates with 100% I think is 

990
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:29,280
the reason, yeah, I think that 
is the reason for the social 

991
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:30,720
media. 
I think there's all the other 

992
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:33,480
reasons we've talked about are, 
are all factors into why 

993
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,040
children aren't, you know, 
generally enjoying. 

994
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,440
Yeah, austerity didn't help. 
Yeah, exactly that sort of 

995
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,040
stuff, right. 
You know, kids not having books 

996
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:40,880
in front of them. 
But in terms of the massive dip 

997
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,960
I've seen in the last couple of 
years, particularly of year 60s 

998
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,760
where they are just that bit 
older, like nearly at that 

999
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,680
secondary school age. 
It's it's yeah. 

1000
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,400
Because they're coming in 
talking about how they spent six

1001
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,040
hours on TikTok last night and 
they're all, they're all 

1002
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,520
competing on that screen time 
and how all mine's 26 hours this

1003
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,880
week on TikTok and they come in 
saying some kind of Italian 

1004
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,960
brain rot LA. 
La La La La La La La La. 

1005
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,200
I don't what are you. 
Talking about getting me to try 

1006
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,840
and do it and I don't know what 
it is I normally keep. 

1007
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,920
I'm normally quite good at 
staying up to date. 

1008
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,440
I'm past it now. 
I can't catch me out, but I know

1009
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:07,760
that meme. 
I know this joke, I know this 

1010
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,320
trend. 
And yeah, they come in now and 

1011
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,280
I'm. 
I don't, I don't. 

1012
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,400
Know I did have a moment with my
lot because even like that kind 

1013
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,320
of brainwashed stuff does creep 
around the whole school as well 

1014
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:16,840
as soon it's in the school is on
the playground. 

1015
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,920
Yeah, it's find it funny. 
And I did think back to like, 

1016
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,120
did we have that when I was 
younger? 

1017
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,200
Because I didn't want to turn 
into that immediate kind of 

1018
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:23,440
boom. 
I was like, not in my day. 

1019
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,680
We just sat and read because 
obviously we didn't. 

1020
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:27,840
But I just thought the crazy 
frog. 

1021
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,280
Yeah, it was a good day because 
Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, 

1022
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,320
Ding. 
Of course when we walked into 

1023
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,920
school doing the crazy frog, I 
can imagine teachers being like,

1024
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,760
oh, back in my day. 
And having it on our Nokia 

1025
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,520
phones as our ringtones, is 
everyone playing it? 

1026
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,240
Yeah. 
Teachers must be looking at the 

1027
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:42,400
thing like ah. 
But it is worse. 

1028
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,240
Yeah, it is worse. 
It's just way more. 

1029
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:46,880
It's way more spread in our 
society now. 

1030
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,240
And I just want to end on the 
fact that I completely back a 

1031
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:55,240
ban of smartphones in school. 
I back that completely. 

1032
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:56,440
Oh. 
But my kid needs it for 

1033
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:57,080
communication. 
They. 

1034
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,320
Go home, get Nokia, get Nokia 
3310. 

1035
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:00,920
Yeah, okay. 
And you know, they don't need 

1036
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:01,640
it. 
They just don't. 

1037
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,600
Yeah, they just don't. 
If they're walking home, they 

1038
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,640
can have a flip phone. 
They do not need a social media 

1039
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,400
algorithm in their pocket whilst
they're learning lessons in high

1040
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,440
school. 
It's it's it's as simple as 

1041
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:12,600
well. 
My kid likes it at break time. 

1042
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,200
Helps them relax tough. 
Oh, well, I find something else.

1043
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,360
Yeah, they can do at home then. 
Yeah, yeah, literally like it. 

1044
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,560
OK, is the answer to everything.
My kid likes it, therefore it 

1045
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:21,760
should be. 
Yeah, my kid likes playing their

1046
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,480
Xbox at home to relax. 
I'm not giving them that a 

1047
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,840
school. 
They're completely exact. 

1048
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,440
I mean, in the form room. 
You might get that in sixth form

1049
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,040
these days. 
I hope you hear of it, but you 

1050
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:29,400
know, no. 
There's no money for an Xbox. 

1051
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,880
Yeah, A. 12 year old though, no,
they're not having. 

1052
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,600
You have to as well as 
educators. 

1053
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,320
Sometimes you have to just say 
no. 

1054
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,360
Yeah. 
It's like it's not just parent 

1055
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,240
rule. 
No parent says, OK, my kid likes

1056
00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:40,400
this. 
It's like, cool, I understand 

1057
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,080
that. 
But here are the reasons why we 

1058
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:43,360
don't do it in this school. 
Yeah. 

1059
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:44,840
And that is the rule, and it's 
as simplest. 

1060
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,360
I'm sure your kid likes wearing 
their own clothes as well, but 

1061
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:47,480
we have a school uniform policy 
here. 

1062
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,360
It's a school. 
We have policies and rules and 

1063
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:50,360
you can follow it or you can 
not. 

1064
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:51,480
Yeah. 
And as long as everything's 

1065
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,080
backed up, I think it's 
completely fine. 

1066
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,080
Yeah, we've talked a million 
times about how some rules are 

1067
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,960
just a bit insane and how maybe 
they're not rooted in reasoning.

1068
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:00,640
But you don't have to agree with
every rule. 

1069
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,120
No you can. 
You are going to get scores with

1070
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,280
different rules and again it's 
the same point. 

1071
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,640
My opinion is if I were to run a
school you would not be allowed 

1072
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,520
to have your phone on you during
the school day. 

1073
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,320
You can come and put it in a zip
lock pocket. 

1074
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:13,640
Yeah, I've seen that that's 
quite a problem. 

1075
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,040
Isn't it brilliant? 
Because then you can have it on 

1076
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,040
your way home. 
I'm not meekly not going to sit 

1077
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,880
and police you at home. 
And what you should do at home. 

1078
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,760
You can have an iPhone if you 
want to have an iPhone, Yeah, 

1079
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,320
OK, fine, go for it. 
But in the school building, 

1080
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:24,520
you're not having it in your 
pocket. 

1081
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:25,880
Yeah. 
Yeah, it's happening and I get 

1082
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:27,800
the pressures of parents. 
I've spoke to a lot of parents 

1083
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,440
who say I just don't want my kid
to be the only one that doesn't 

1084
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,200
have the phone. 
But I get, I get it. 

1085
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,000
I know it's a negative thing. 
I just don't want my kid to be 

1086
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:35,440
the only one in the class 
doesn't have the phone. 

1087
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,440
So I totally get the pressures. 
And it's like, yeah, OK, well 

1088
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,440
let's just work around it then 
by doing stuff like. 

1089
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:40,720
That yeah, equalise it in 
school. 

1090
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:41,760
All right, fine, they can have 
the phone. 

1091
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,000
But here are some things you can
do. 

1092
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:44,200
Here's some things we can do at 
school. 

1093
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:45,520
We can take complete control of 
that for you. 

1094
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,320
They don't have it all day. 
Here's some other things you can

1095
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:48,960
do at home. 
We'll be the bad guys, you know,

1096
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:50,680
we'll be about and you can get 
home. 

1097
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:54,080
OK, fine. 
I can still educate and say why 

1098
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,520
I still think it's a bad idea 
that they go home and they send 

1099
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,560
TikTok for six hours. 
I think there's ways you can 

1100
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,840
have smartphones and tablets and
technology that aren't going to 

1101
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,680
brain rot your child. 
OK, there's ways you can do 

1102
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,600
this. 
Not it's like we said earlier, 

1103
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,600
screen time isn't equally bad. 
When I was younger, I spent a 

1104
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,200
lot of time watching Cartoon 
Network, kind of a screen that 

1105
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,120
was a screen. 
It's just not automatically bad.

1106
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,440
But we have to have to have to 
differentiate between what the 

1107
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,760
algorithm's doing to our 
attention spans for the children

1108
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,400
and taking away time where they 
can be reading and finding books

1109
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,320
they love. 
Bring back Simpsons at 6:00. 

1110
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,800
That's what I'm saying. 
Double on a Friday, double on a 

1111
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:28,640
Friday. 
Remember that? 

1112
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,720
That's that was my that was my 
screen time. 

1113
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,800
And look how you turned out, how
you. 

1114
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,480
Reading so maybe it wasn't bad. 
So here's here's a question for 

1115
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,440
you then. 
Are are we hypocrites because we

1116
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,120
make social media content for 
this podcast? 

1117
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,200
No, of course we're not. 
No, of course we're not. 

1118
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,120
Like, even the idea of that 
makes me annoyed. 

1119
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,080
Why? 
Because social media and content

1120
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,400
exists and you can be an adult 
person and whether you think 

1121
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,720
you've got a problem because you
spend too much on it or not, OK,

1122
00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:55,920
cool. 
I can't. 

1123
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,960
We can't not create stuff 
because you might get a child 

1124
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:02,400
who manages to access it through
their home life and their their 

1125
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,680
parents choices. 
It's the same thing. 

1126
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,400
Like, OK, is Quentin Tarantino a
awful hypocrite because a child 

1127
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,600
might pick up a DVD at home and 
put on the DVD player and watch 

1128
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,560
one of his 18 plus films? 
These things still can exist. 

1129
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,120
And I think also our content is 
very safe. 

1130
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,640
We've talked a lot before. 
If we if we're marketing towards

1131
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,720
children from this podcast and 
we sit there and we do age, 

1132
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:23,560
that's completely age 
inappropriate. 

1133
00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:26,320
That is absolutely our fault, 
but it's not. 

1134
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:27,240
It's not what we're doing at 
all. 

1135
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,840
So if we turn into KSI and the. 
Start making YouTube. 

1136
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:32,120
Yeah, like I, I've talked about 
it a million times. 

1137
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:33,400
I think we do a episode in the 
future. 

1138
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,640
I really do. 
But when they are so clearly 

1139
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:37,840
marketing towards children and 
everything they do, and then 

1140
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:39,760
they release a podcast and 
within two minutes they're 

1141
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,120
talking about adult content, 
Yeah, I just think. 

1142
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,600
You are at fault for that. 
Yeah, like that is your fault. 

1143
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:45,840
But that's this whole separate 
conversation. 

1144
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,000
I agree. 
And it kind of goes back to the 

1145
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,640
original question you asked me. 
Am IA hypocrite for not reading 

1146
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,760
at home whilst saying to 
children it's really important. 

1147
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,360
It's like, no, because I'm an 
adult and I've got through that.

1148
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:54,360
I've it's different. 
Yeah. 

1149
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,080
Like they can both coexist. 
And you can you can also think 

1150
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,400
that you it would be good if 
you, when you were younger, had 

1151
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:01,760
a different outcome. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1152
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,200
Yeah. 
It doesn't mean, Oh well, I'm 

1153
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,080
like this. 
There's the classic thing, like 

1154
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,400
on a Tiktok comment sometimes, 
well, I'm like this and it never

1155
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,960
hurt me. 
Google, like great. 

1156
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:12,760
Does that mean that it's just 
not a thing? 

1157
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,040
Then we just ignore that it's 
reading for enjoyment. 

1158
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,120
I watched 18 plus films when I 
was 14. 

1159
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,800
It didn't hurt me. 
Yeah, well, you're leaving 

1160
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,040
random tik toks on a comment on 
a thing that you've never seen 

1161
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,640
before, so it might have 
affected you. 

1162
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,720
Yeah, no, I agree though. 
Yeah, it might not hurt someone.

1163
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,880
Yeah, cool might not, but yeah, 
it does. 

1164
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,760
But. 
Let's play the game a bit and we

1165
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,840
can't just say, well, that's 
that then I guess. 

1166
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,760
No, there are lots of ways. 
So let's just wrap this up then.

1167
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,080
What works when we're trying to 
encourage reading for pleasure? 

1168
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,520
Let's let's just bash through 
some very quick ideas now. 

1169
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,240
First thing for me is autonomy, 
free choice, letting the child 

1170
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:47,640
lead it, meeting them where they
are, and then going from there. 

1171
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,680
If a child wants to read an 
encyclopaedia because they just 

1172
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,360
happen to have a real, real 
interest in this, I don't know, 

1173
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,760
it's an animal encyclopaedia and
they want to sit down and read 

1174
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,600
it for half an hour. 
Don't fret because they're not 

1175
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,080
getting a whole different genre 
subset that you want to in your 

1176
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,120
head thinks really important. 
They're reading crack on. 

1177
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:07,360
When I was a kid, I picked up 
the newspaper and I read match 

1178
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,760
reports for football because I 
was obsessed with football and I

1179
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,360
was reading, reading, reading, 
reading, reading. 

1180
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,760
It's fine. 
Whatever form reading comes in. 

1181
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,200
Let your child lead you, 
especially if they're a 

1182
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:18,720
reluctant reader. 
I'm talking about here, we're 

1183
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:20,960
trying to improve reading for 
enjoyment. 

1184
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:25,200
Let them lead you to the reading
and just think, is this reading?

1185
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,040
It's an audio book. 
It's fine. 

1186
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,240
They're going to enjoy that 
story. 

1187
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,040
Cool. 
It's a, it's a newspaper, it's 

1188
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:31,600
fine. 
You, you've read it, you've read

1189
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:32,320
the article. 
It's all good. 

1190
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:34,240
You're going to do that too. 
They're they're going through an

1191
00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:36,200
instruction set when they're 
building something in the toy 

1192
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:37,960
set they've got and they're sat 
there reading the instructions. 

1193
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:39,760
Amazing. 
They're doing a board game and 

1194
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:40,880
they're explaining the rules to 
you. 

1195
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:42,640
They read it themselves. 
Unbelievable. 

1196
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,000
This is all reading and it 
should be celebrated and not Oh 

1197
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,120
no, you've not read Wind in the 
Willows and The Lost Key of Beef

1198
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,360
and Chip. 
It's fine. 

1199
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:52,920
I don't know. 
I think we should maybe put beef

1200
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,280
and chip on a pedestal. 
I'm just, I think a bit a bit 

1201
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:56,360
far over the bar with that. 
One I'm. 

1202
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,960
Sorry, I'm sorry, another thing 
we can do a bit. 

1203
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,480
A big win, shared reading. 
And there's 22 aspects to this, 

1204
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,600
like literally reading as an 
educator in your in your class, 

1205
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,920
you read into the class, maybe 
even a child reading or in those

1206
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,920
lessons where you can get the 
lots of children to do reading 

1207
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:12,840
or guided reading. 
So just sharing reading in 

1208
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,720
class, but also like sharing 
things you like about reading in

1209
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:18,040
class. 
It's quite easy actually. 

1210
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,040
I'm not I'm saying whip up a 
display because I hate displays,

1211
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,600
but it's quite easy to have 
somewhere in your classroom a 

1212
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:23,960
place where kids write little 
book reviews. 

1213
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:25,000
It's a really cute idea. 
Yeah. 

1214
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,600
It's super easy. 
Just post it notes. 

1215
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:28,880
I I recommend this book because 
of this reason. 

1216
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:30,960
And then someone else picks it 
up and you could, you can go as 

1217
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,360
far down that fun Ave as you 
want. 

1218
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,280
You can have, you could have 
different genres for this. 

1219
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,440
And then people go to the genre 
they like and pick up a posting 

1220
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:38,560
note. 
Oh, someone's recommended me 

1221
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,080
this. 
There's loads of little things 

1222
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,760
you can do to share the love of 
reading in a classroom, even if 

1223
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,000
you yourself as a teacher are 
not the font of all that 

1224
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,840
knowledge. 
The kids are reading more books 

1225
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,160
than you are. 
Some of them are, at least. 

1226
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,440
Yeah, most, yeah, probably are 
realistically like, at least as 

1227
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:53,960
a collective, they're reading. 
They're, you know, 32 kids in 

1228
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:55,960
the class and majority of them 
are reading a book. 

1229
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,880
Hopefully all of them. 
Like there's so much content and

1230
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,760
knowledge there for them to get 
out and and recommend to each 

1231
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,080
other. 
So yeah, just foster this idea 

1232
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:04,640
of sharing reading in the 
classroom. 

1233
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,080
And the last point I think is 
the hardest. 

1234
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,800
I think those two are things we 
can do very quickly, but we have

1235
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,160
to build back up that culture of
home reading. 

1236
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,720
But you spoke about it yourself.
You're in a family who are very 

1237
00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:17,400
supportive, very loving family, 
no issues at all. 

1238
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,080
But reading just wasn't on that 
pedestal. 

1239
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,160
It just wasn't there. 
And a little bit more in my 

1240
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,000
house it was. 
And again, if I track how much 

1241
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,880
I'm reading now is an adult 
compared to you, I read more 

1242
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:27,640
than you. 
Is is there a link there? 

1243
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,760
Probably, probably. 
And it's really important to 

1244
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,360
foster that culture and it comes
from lots of places. 

1245
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,200
And I think it's 
counterproductive sometimes to 

1246
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,000
just point at home and go, well,
you're not doing it at home, 

1247
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,920
it's your problem. 
Okay, cool that that can be 

1248
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:42,880
true, but it's not helpful to 
say that. 

1249
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,000
What's helpful is to look at 
maybe what the underlying 

1250
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,400
reasons are. 
Are the parents themselves left 

1251
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,000
less confident of reading? 
Do they need more support? 

1252
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,880
Do we need to instil something 
or places they can go? 

1253
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,000
Do they even know where their 
local libraries? 

1254
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,640
Libraries have closed. 
I think nearly 20% of libraries 

1255
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,120
have closed since 2010. 
So it's on the decrease, but 

1256
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:01,440
there are still libraries out 
there. 

1257
00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:04,840
Even myself as a someone who 
does enjoy reading, I didn't 

1258
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,360
really know where my local 
libraries were until I have my 

1259
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:08,760
son. 
And I thought to myself, oh 

1260
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,560
where is the local library? 
It's a 2 minute walk down my Rd.

1261
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:12,320
It's lovely. 
It's. 

1262
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,000
Really nice and he loves it in 
there and that's something I 

1263
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:16,200
didn't know before I had my own 
child. 

1264
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,280
But you know as a teacher, it's 
what came into my head. 

1265
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,240
It won't come into lots of 
parents heads to do that and 

1266
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:25,080
I've just got that statistic 
here very quickly. 30% say 

1267
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,000
reading is not part of their 
family life. 

1268
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:28,800
That's three and 10. 
That's a lot of kids in your 

1269
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,760
class that's about 10 kids in 
your class you think and reading

1270
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:32,920
is not a part of their home 
life. 

1271
00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:35,240
And if you just think how much 
of an impact that's going to 

1272
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:38,560
have on their outcomes and is if
as schools, we are really, 

1273
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,480
really worried and the only 
thing that's what's important is

1274
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,080
test results. 
And we talk about how ridiculous

1275
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,000
that mentality is. 
But if that is how your school 

1276
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,120
is, it doesn't make a difference
in this respect because that's 

1277
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,920
going to impact those scores. 
So even if you need to meet your

1278
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,040
senior leadership team there, 
because all they care about is 

1279
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,080
the Sats, this is going to also 
have the impact there as well. 

1280
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,840
It's not, it's not either or 
it's OK, but reading for 

1281
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,240
enjoyment is really important. 
So we foster this culture at 

1282
00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:03,080
home. 
It's going to impact our scores 

1283
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:04,520
anyway. 
So it's still going to be a good

1284
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:05,160
thing. 
Yeah, I agree. 

1285
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,880
And we are a society in the day,
and when we help in lots of 

1286
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,600
ways, a society helps people in 
lots of ways. 

1287
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,120
It's not condescending. 
Like I think sometimes people 

1288
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:13,040
think that, oh, it's 
condescending. 

1289
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:14,720
Tell parents what to do. 
It's not telling parents what to

1290
00:51:14,720 --> 00:51:16,000
do. 
It's just keeping people 

1291
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:17,440
informed. 
Oh, yeah, local libraries around

1292
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:18,400
here. 
Or did you know you can get this

1293
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:19,520
deal? 
Or did you know you can do this?

1294
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,040
Yeah. 
Is it condescending for a doctor

1295
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:22,440
to say you should lower your 
blood pressure? 

1296
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:24,200
Of course it's not 
condescending. 

1297
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,320
No. 
It's just a fact of life that if

1298
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,680
we do make these small changes, 
build habits, you are more 

1299
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,360
likely to have a more positive 
outcome in the end. 

1300
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,080
So of course we should do this 
was. 

1301
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,040
It condescending for the 
government 20 years ago to set 

1302
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,120
up as a Sure Start centres to 
help. 20 years ago, this kind, 

1303
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,240
yeah, yeah, it was way better. 
Is that it's a New Labour thing.

1304
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:45,800
It was like it was a long time 
ago. 

1305
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,640
And but you're right though I'm 
nitpicking here, but it was when

1306
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,000
we were kids we benefited from. 
Yeah, because in my head I was a

1307
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,400
little kid 20 years ago. 
I'm actually like mid. 30s Yeah,

1308
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:56,200
you. 
It doesn't matter. 

1309
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:57,800
Don't read it. 
Don't worry, I don't. 20 for 

1310
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,320
pleasure. 20 plus covering my. 
Age yeah do you know I'll read 

1311
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,040
for pleasure. 
You're best difficult look in 

1312
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,480
1980s. 
Whoa, whoa, absolutely not. 

1313
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:08,960
Don't even listen to who are. 
I think if you're calling 

1314
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,560
yourself old, sorry guys, sorry 
guys. 

1315
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,680
But yeah, in general, I think 
the reason we're passionate 

1316
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,160
about this is reading for 
pleasure. 

1317
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,360
Whether we personally spend lots
of our time doing it or not, we 

1318
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,520
see the impact it has on the 
outcomes of children and we want

1319
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,520
the best for our kids. 
So whenever we're talking about 

1320
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:27,720
this, we're not being 
condescending. 

1321
00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:29,440
We're not trying to point the 
finger and blame anyone. 

1322
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,720
We are simply saying a fact, 
which is that if a child enjoys 

1323
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:36,080
reading, they will become better
at reading than they were 

1324
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,840
beforehand, and that is a good 
thing. 

1325
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,360
So we need to try and facilitate
that as much as we can. 

1326
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:42,520
Absolutely. 
We've talked about lots of 

1327
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,840
reasons why and hopefully some 
of those things are useful for 

1328
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,200
you as an educator, as a parent.
Whoever you are listening to 

1329
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,000
this podcast and whoever you are
listening to this podcast, you 

1330
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,400
can absolutely leave us a 
review. 

1331
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,000
I think so. 
I think you should reading for 

1332
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,480
enjoyment or I'm going to read 
the menu that says rating and 

1333
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,800
I'm gonna read the stars. 
Read all five of them I I. 

1334
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:01,880
Don't think guys, it was a 
review already helps us share 

1335
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,160
this podcast with someone who 
you might think will find it 

1336
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,400
used for, and we'll catch you 
next week for another one. 

1337
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:07,800
See you then.