Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Teach
Sleep, Repeat. My name is Dylan and my name's
Hayden, and this week we're going to be taking a look at why
reading for enjoyment has plummeted in recent years.
We'll discuss some of the barriers to reading and how to
overcome them, and ultimately why reading for pleasure is so
important and why, as educators and parents, we should be
fostering it as much as possible.
And of course, if you enjoy this episode, leave us a review and
why not get in touch with us on our socials at Teach Sleep
Repeat podcast. Think about reading for pleasure
in general. I'm going to come out of this
whole framing of children for a second and just ask you
personally, as an adult, do you ever feel guilty about how much
you read? Because I know you're not really
a reader. And as a teacher, do you not
think like you're almost ignoring what you preach about
the importance and the brilliance of reading?
Yeah, you've. Cheers mate.
You know how you're terrible at this thing we're talking about?
We are a voice of. Authority.
Yeah, I think it's good story. I've always said it's good
story. Yeah, that's I kind of want to
throw it to you straight away. Guilt.
I don't know if it's the right word.
I don't know what the right word is.
I'm not sure it's guilt. But I have always been like
hyper aware of the fact that I don't really enjoy reading, but
I don't really enjoy reading. I mean, I don't enjoy reading.
I do not read for pleasure. Like I don't, I won't.
You won't catch me picking up a fiction book and reading it for
fun. The odd non fiction book across
my life has piqued my interest because it's just a topic that
I've been interested in and I'll sit there and read it.
And even with those, I don't think I've ever really read it
cover to cover. I'll get halfway through a book
like that and feel like I've learned all of the stuff that
satisfies my interest, and then I'll go and Google something or
watch some YouTube videos on that thing more and I'll be
like, cool, done with that interest.
Do you do that with TV shows and films and stuff?
No, I always watch them through. Why then?
Why do you think there's a difference there?
I don't know, maybe I think they captivate captivate me more.
I've always found that though, even as a child, I, I read the
books I needed to read. Like I wasn't, I wasn't someone
who didn't do the reading. Like if I had to read a certain
book, you know, to get my stamp or whatever at school, I would
do that reading. And I was, I was an average, if
not slightly above average reader.
Like I got through fine, but I never really enjoyed it.
Well. Even as a child.
Yeah, even as a child, like I, I, I didn't, it didn't really
capture me. I I remember reading classics
like Biff and Chip and just being like.
I thought you were going to say something like Wind of the
Willows. No, no, no, no not not.
I remember the lost key, not not the classics.
That's the one I'm thinking of as well.
Lost key. Yeah, it was a whole.
It was like a whole series of. Things.
But I tell you what. I tell you what.
I've read all the classics me. Classic The Wind in the Key by
Biff and Chip. You can't even think about.
The classic. I actually can't think of any
classics right now. Charles Dickens by Biff and Chip
doesn't make any sense, but I remember I just never really
found it interesting. However, I did love and I was
that kid at school who would sit there with me.
Encyclopaedia or that like massive science book that had
like just like loads of fun facts.
Right, but you enjoyed that? I enjoyed that and that was
reading now and that was reading, but it was never, that
was never pushed though. That was very much, oh wow,
that's cool. Now let's get a real reading
book. And you've got to read those,
and I didn't like them. Yeah, we're, I think we're going
to talk a little bit, explore that a little bit later in terms
of, you know, if we broaden what we count as reading, then
perhaps actually we look at for enjoyment.
There are a lot more avenues that children can go down.
But just before we dive into that whole chat then about, you
know, the importance of it, etcetera.
I'm, I'm only asking, I'm not actually asking this to catch
you out at all, but I'm just, I just want to lay the foundations
down of there's lots of people who'll be listening to this who
are obviously educators, working in school, teachers, and
there'll be a lot of people who love reading.
Even at the minute on Instagram, there's this whole nominate
thing going around what you're reading at the minute and you
can nominate other accounts and things like that.
So there's a big culture of adults reading as well, whether
that's adults reading children's literature or adults reading
adult books, etcetera. There's lots of talk about in
the education space. And I just think it's also
important for a bunch of listeners out there now who are
probably thinking to themselves, oh gosh, I mean, can I be a good
educator if I'm not reading constantly?
If I've not got my nose in the book, if if I prefer to go and
do something else on my pleasure and seek it elsewhere, am I
hypocrite for telling children we need to read for pleasure?
And I am I kind of going against this whole argument of why it's
so important if actually as an adult I'm not doing it myself.
I don't think it's hypocritical, but but I do think and, and bear
in mind, I'm in the camp of I'm not, I don't really read.
I do think you're more likely to be a better, to be a better
teacher if you read more children's literature,
particularly I do. I genuinely more likely, more
likely. I don't think it is guaranteed.
I don't think I've been a bad teacher within English.
I think maybe I, I think maybe I could have got to like a, maybe
a certain threshold of teaching a bit quicker if I just knew a
bit more children's literature. But I also read on the job, like
as part of the job. I've actually, ironically, read
a lot of children's literature now because I've taught a
billion books in my 10 years of teaching to kids, which I
obviously actually needed to read in advance.
Like, you know, and yeah, maybe I would have been a bit better
if I knew the author or I could have told children, Oh, I really
recommend this book by this author now, now that you've read
this one because, you know, I'm such an expert.
I've read them all. And I do think those teachers
probably probably foster a love for reading a little bit better
than me. It's, it's such a good skill to
have. I've always been envious of
those educators who can, you know, listen to a child read and
see they're enjoying this series and then almost have like 14
other books and they can recommend as a result.
And I think that's an amazing skill.
And, and it's, it's something that we should celebrate.
And it's, it's not something every single teacher can have.
And I think you're right in saying it doesn't necessarily
mean you're a bad teacher. Of course not.
Because I think we're more in that camp of we'd have to go
away and do some research. And there's a difference between
kind of ignoring it at all as a problem and say, no, it's fine.
Now don't worry if you don't enjoy reading.
I don't think many teachers are like that.
But I think you can really understand the importance of
reading and how it can really impact a child's outcomes.
But still, as an adult, maybe not read as much as you would
like. So the last thing I'm going to
ask you, are you happy with the amount you read as an adult or
do you still think? Do you personally think?
OK I know I don't and I don't enjoy it but I should read more.
I think I've slowly gotten, I used to feel a lot more like
that. I used to.
I think the embarrassment's probably the right word.
I genuinely, I think I felt embarrassed that I didn't read
like other people read. And over the years I've just
learned to accept that I just don't enjoy that and that is OK.
In all honesty, I think it's fine.
I don't. I don't think it's a problem.
So OK, let's bring this round then to our discussion today.
Is it OK in a fine if a child doesn't enjoy reading?
It's different because they're still in the learning stage.
I've done it like I'm I'm already, I'm over the hill.
I've already learned to the level that which I need to be at
to function in society. So like it sounds really
hypocritical, but no, like I think no, it's no, here's what
it is. I think it is objectively OK if
a child comes to the conclusion that it's not really a passion
they want to take up. Do what?
So, but do I think children need to learn to read?
Yes. And that's almost a separate
thing. I think through enjoyment,
that's how we foster children getting to learn how to read.
So they're kind of they kind of become LinkedIn with each other.
So if the question was is is it important that we do everything
we possibly can to make kids enjoy reading, I think the
answer is yes, because that has a knock on effect of they're
probably then going to learn how to read properly, which is what
we need to be functioning in society.
Right, Because it would be really, really counterproductive
for us to kind of just say, oh, that's fine.
Then if you don't, it's our job to really find a way for this to
be at the forefront of what they want to do.
And whether personally, as educators or not, we go away and
spend lots of our free time doing it.
We know how important it is. And if a child enjoys it,
they're going to and spend more time doing it, get better at
reading, and therefore have better outcomes as a result.
So we're rooting this in. All I want our listeners to
think here is whether or not they personally love reading or
are avid readers. As adults, I think we can all
agree that it's really, really important that children do read
lots. And if children are enjoying it,
and if we foster an environment that promotes reading for
enjoyment, we're not going to hit every single child all of
the time because it's literally impossible.
But we have to at least look at ourselves and say we're doing
everything we can because it's so important.
One, one final thing, like a preface almost that maybe we can
think about as we're having the discussion, because we're going
to talk about some of the challenges and the barriers to
reading and how that's changed over the years is I genuinely
think there was a, a version of reality where I would have
enjoyed reading. I actually think that could have
existed. I think I'm way too deep rooted
now into the things I like and the things I don't like as much
that it'd be really hard to change.
But I genuinely think we can go back in time and make certain
changes, idealistic, realistic, whatever.
And I could have maybe between someone who enjoyed reading do.
You think if it was fostered a bit more around your actual
enjoyment and seeing what you were reading and accepting that
is reading and therefore it's good, like your encyclopaedia or
sat down reading your facts, would that have kind of wormed
you into a wider sense of reading in general do you think?
I think that is one of a few factors that we should go
through now that probably could have made a difference, but I
don't think that alone. No.
OK, cool. Well, we're going to go through
a bunch of them. I'm going to start off with a
statistic because it's going to link it with my first question
to you. So here it's from the National
Liturgy Trust and this kind of grounds the whole conversation
that we're having about reading for pleasure.
So just one in three children and young people said that they
enjoyed reading in their free time in 2025 S just for context
there, that means two in three don't.
So one in three only are enjoying reading.
And that's on its own is kind of a damning statistic because
we've just talked about how important it is to try and
foster that. But what makes it even more of a
worry, in my opinion, is that that that marks a 36% decrease
in reading enjoyment levels since 2005.
Yeah, that's really interesting. It fits the narrative.
I think if it's what I feel like makes sense.
And I I was in the it's kind of it's all in 3rd, isn't it
really? 36% is nearly 1/3 right?
So it's kind of like thinking about math somehow.
You had to have to bring around to the really good subject.
Well, that's basically what I was going to say to you, is does
that match your impression? You've been in the job for 10
years. You've been teaching and
training since 2015. Yeah, it's not quite 2005, But
have you, have you witnessed that dip?
Is it something you've seen as an educator in school?
I think I've seen a slight dip. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say like,
I mean, I know that's over a 20 year period and we're talking
over a 10 year period. I don't, I'd only say it's a
slight dip and I'd say a bit more amplified in the last
couple of years. From my personal experience of
children not enjoying reading, I'd say it's been roughly that
10 years ago it was roughly the same.
I had a rough amount, you know, the same amount of children in
my class that didn't enjoy reading, but that.
But compared to the last couple of years, I think that has
noticeably dipped even more. I don't know about you.
No, I think from what I've seen in the classroom, I guess it's a
huge thing that I you've, it's got to come back to this.
I hate coming back to this every time because it feels like a
pointless thing to say. But when library books aren't
updated over a decade, OK, and and and money is squeezed so
much in scores, how, how, what is that going to manifest itself
as? And as a teacher, I just find it
a lot of children and more and more and more as time went on,
there were more and more children saying, well, I've read
these books, I've finished them, I've done them.
And those children who are avid readers kind of run out very
quickly. And those children who aren't
necessarily avid readers, but are really hyper focused and
intently enjoy one subset of a genre perhaps.
Or maybe they absolutely love graphic novels or they're just
into something else, like you said, like your fact books.
That's just one slither of the books we offer the children.
And you can rinse through those very quickly and you kind of
lose interest then because it's enough variety.
So yeah, I would say I've noticed a decrease, I think in
that reading. And again, we're going to come
on to it later on, I think when we talk about the individual
barriers and stuff. But I think again, I don't like
just pointing the finger and I'm not doing that at all.
But you we've got to look at the the attitude from home as well
and, and reading in the household.
And there's loads of statistics we're going to get onto about
how reading is less and less and less on a pedestal in homes.
And how many times as a teacher have you maybe seen reading
records as all this discussion about reading records and how
effective they are, But how many times have you said, well,
there's only so much we can do? Yeah, I mean loads of times
because because if the family don't read with a child, then
like I can't be that family role for do you know what?
I mean, and do you find I found a lot in that time as well, I've
had less and less and less time to sit just one to one and
listen to a child reading. Oh, yeah, that's a big I've
we're kind of flitting over a lot of the barriers I think
we're going to talk about in a minute.
But yeah, that's another, that's another big thing.
You know, how many roles can we be?
We've had a whole conversation about what role should a teacher
be in a school? Like, are we there to help them
use cutlery? You know, are we there to be
their home, do the homework with them?
Are we there to do the home reading with them?
It's like there's only so much you can do.
And like you said, when time in school is whittled down by other
curriculum stresses and and forces that be, it's really hard
to build in a bit of time where you say, yeah, I'm going to read
with, I don't know, U six kids today, I'm going to do U six
kids the next day I'm going to do a good 5 minutes one to one.
That used to, that definitely used to be more of a thing.
I think that's a huge thing I have personally seen in decline
even in 10 years. That's one thing I can put my
finger on and say, Oh yeah, that thing is gone.
That thing is gone. I'm sure some schools still
manage it, but at great cost. At a greater cost than it would
have been 10 years ago. And the biggest, biggest shame
from that is that those children who aren't getting that support
from home have then lost that in school as well.
And those children aren't being listened to read enough.
And I think we have to put that centre stage.
So let's go into our first kind of barrier here then.
Like what, why, why is it that children enjoyment for reading
levels have decreased then? And they just have, they've got
lower. So the first thing we want to
talk about is access. And I, I wanted to just mention
this because I was listening to Rachel Reeves talk a few weeks
ago and she was talking about how the government are going to
have a push on reading. They're going to have a real
push and make it a year of reading.
And, and it's fantastic. You, you can't, you can't
discredit that. You know, the fact we're talking
about it is really good. But one line really stuck with
me because it, it kind of shocked me.
And it was said in a way where isn't this great?
And the only thing I could think of was what on earth?
How is this not already a thing? So Rachel Reeve said by the end
of this parliament, every single primary school will have a
library. What do you think my first
thought was? Schools don't have libraries in
2025 if. I just had to think if I was
starting from scratch and building a school from something
that didn't exist. Right.
Yeah. OK.
You'd have your classrooms. You'd have your lunch hall where
you can eat your lunch. You'd have a car park for the
staff. Yeah.
You'd have all those things. An office.
You need an office. Yeah.
Very much at the top of that list would be the first thing I
think about in terms of teaching and learning would be, well, we
need a hub for reading, right? Because reading is by far and
away the most. Important thing.
It's non negotable, isn't it? It's like in the same way I
obviously need a hall, right to do assemblies and things, I need
a library as well. Like they just, they just, it
doesn't even, you can't even like, I can't fathom the idea
that's not on that first list. So here's here's the statistic
of how many state schools, state primary schools don't have a
library. One in seven, one in seven state
schools don't have a library, and that rises to one in four
not having a library in disadvantaged areas.
Oh, wow. So children coming from poorer
backgrounds are less likely to have access to a library in
their school. Now, I want to make something
really clear. This doesn't mean there are
schools out there where children don't get books, OK?
This is very much at the core of what we're talking about here,
which is reading for enjoyment, OK?
I think there is a difference between a child going into
school and having their book changed once or twice a week in
the book bag, and now we're on a red band and then we're on the
purple band. OK.
I think that's happening in most schools because you've got to go
through the reading levels and get better at reading and
improve. What we're talking about here is
if you think about reading for enjoyment and getting readers
ready for society and getting them to find what they love and
just reading for the sake of reading, which is really
important. A library is essential to that.
Like that you need to be able to go into a library and see that
these things exist. There are bookshelves upon
bookshelves of books. And I might not like all of
these books, and I certainly don't want to read that genre
over there. Well, I'm not going to read
them. That's just not for me.
But this, Oh my gosh, this book. And next to it, there's going to
have things by the same author. But this is all, it's in
alphabetical order, is it? And there are genres around.
And I might go over here and there's a corner over there
where there's some lovely plushies and a nice comfortable
place where I can just sit and read.
When I was at primary school, I was in a relatively new primary
school. I'd only been built for about 5
years when I joined. And when I was in year 3 or year
4, I remember this so well. And it's, it's backing up what
you're saying. I remember them building a new
library inside of our school. They actually, it was like, it
was like a loft conversion. It was a space that was just,
you know, schools are really tall in the corridors.
There was just this massive space, like upward space.
And I'm like, should we just put a staircase in and just make a
massive library up here? And it was unreal.
I still remember it to this day vividly because I remember going
to it for the first time and it was kitted out with beanbags.
It's all colourful, like you said there was John was all over
the place because I can't what we had before that we either
didn't have a proper library or it was like a really small sort
of shoddy 1. Well, quite often it's it's like
bookshelves in the corridor kind.
Of yeah, that definitely was a thing.
Yeah, we had, we had like a lot of our classes were linked.
They come in twos and we'd have like this a shared area in
between them and they had just a kind of makeshift bookshelf in
there. They had a had a good amount of
books in there, but it wasn't a library.
That's exactly what I mean here. And I'm saying I'm not.
What I'm not saying is I don't want anyone to think that one in
seven schools aren't getting books sent home because they
have a library, has like a hub for reading and a place to go
through. I just feel like if we're, if
we're going to have this, you know, year of reading, I think
it's a really, really good aim from the government.
I'm going to give them their dues, whether to say that by the
end of the Parliament we're going to have a library in every
school. I don't know how we're going to
achieve that. I don't know how we're going to
find space for that. We're going to have.
We need to put our money where our mouth is, but it has to be
put in a pedestal that reading for the sake of reading and for
the sake of enjoyment is itself enough.
And we don't have to track everything against end of key
stage 2 SAT papers. We don't have to track
everything against Are they improving in their retrieval and
their inference and their summary?
And is the teacher making sure that when they're picking a
book, they're asking them a summary question every 3 pages
and then there's a prediction question at the end of every
chapter? So we're going to do that.
We're going to. It's important to have that
knowledge when you're reading with the child.
But like we said, there's not enough time to do that every
time. Do you know what is good and is
more than enough? And is a brilliant use of our
money as a society is to have places for children to be safe
and warm and love reading. I agree.
And I just going back to the point you mentioned, because I
will die on this hill and I've mentioned this podcast and I'll
mention it again. You could even strip out all the
stuff about, oh, we haven't. We're doing retrieval questions
today and now we're learning inference.
Now we're doing three more questions.
I still firmly believe you could not even have that exist in the
curriculum and just focus on getting kids to like books.
And they will still pass whatever thresholds we make for
them, whatever SAT exam, whatever stupid bars we set
because enjoyment for reading transcends all of it.
It's so much more important. So yes, access to books and
having a library and a place to love learning couldn't be more
important. How many times just to finish on
that point, because you've really struck A chord with me
there. Have you got your new class and
you spend a couple of weeks your class?
You get to know them and you do start to notice those children
who just have an absolute love for reading and have access to
different genres and have that. Whether it's a home life that
they've got built up around them where they're able to do that,
or maybe they've just piqued an interest and you just think to
yourself, they're going to get expected.
Yeah, they're going to get greater depth in their reading.
And, and there is so many children who have achieved
greater depth under my teaching where I more than ever, a more
bigger ratio, let's say, has been down to the fact that child
has read so much. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Way more than whatever input I've put in.
Yeah, I, I often, I often joke about it in sort of like it's
quite, quite pessimistic, right? But I'll joke about it because
I've been here 6 for years where we'll say we'll celebrate our
greater depth. Oh, this kid got greater depth
or this kid got expected. I was like, yeah, they would
have done if we taught them nothing because they love
reading like that. It's just, I just try and ground
it a bit where it's like, yeah, I didn't do that, I didn't do
that. They came into my class loving
reading, reading books that are like 4 years above them already.
They could have not taken part in any of my lessons where we
sat there and unpicked how to do free mark questions.
It was boring rubbish and they still would have got greater
depth because they can read. That's the point.
They can read really well. Yeah.
So you know, when we're thinking of what's higher on this
pedestal, we can worry and and fret and I get why leaders do
about SAT results and then we need to be doing lots of SAT
prep and exact test style questions.
I understand why, but I do just think you don't have to do that.
I completely agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Normally what comes, what it comes down to is we haven't got
enough time now to get this child to love reading because
they're they're 9 already and we've not done it yet.
So what can we do to make any impact on their data?
The one thing you can do is teach them lessons like that to
try and make a little 5%, just just get them over that hill.
So they pass the test is and it and it just becomes about tests,
you know, and we're going to talk about tests in a minute.
So, yeah, access to books really, really important.
Let's talk about the second thing I'll issue.
So the second thing is something you you mentioned earlier, but
let's go into a bit more detail. Just not being read to.
So like it's just real. Not not every child is being
read to at home. I'm talking about here and at
school because you even mentioned how in the curriculum
we're losing time at school to read as well.
Yeah, I can. I can just say now as a teacher,
through no fault of my own, I'm not, I'm not making this choice.
And it's we can point a thing wherever we like, you know, let
the viewers decide on listeners to decide of where the problem
is. But it is literally I spend less
time sat listening to children read than I did 10 years ago.
And that's a fact. That's a fact.
Yeah, so I've got a stat for you here.
So there's a huge difference between children who are read to
regularly and children who are not read to or read to very
rarely in terms of how much they then go and read independently,
right. So this stat says only 13% of 5
to 11 year olds read daily if they're read too rarely.
And that goes up to 66% of those children will read regularly by
themselves if they're read too daily.
So what I'm trying to get here, because that's quite a confusing
stat, is that children that are read to regularly then go ahead,
go away and read to themselves as well.
So it's just highlighting the impact of reading with and to
your children. Like I think sometimes the two
gets forgotten. They think, oh, all we have to
do. By they, I just mean all of us.
We think, oh, yeah, we, we have to just listen to the children
read. That's how they get better
reading. What is it?
And sometimes people dismiss the idea that if you read to them,
that's not helping them. No, it does.
Because remember, we've established that reading for
enjoyment is already a huge factor in how well children can
read. And reading to them makes them
enjoy reading more. It's like, it's just like
another. It's a step removed.
Yeah, find that maybe they're not sat there and decoding
words, whatever, doesn't matter. But they're enjoying reading
because then they go away and read more themselves and.
I'm not being funny, they start. You know, my children are like,
they're like sponges and they'll read along with you.
That'll be what watching you read.
And there'll be words they don't see or understand, and they'll
hear you say them out loud. And this is a battle.
I've had a lot with parents over the years.
And sometimes you accept it and you say, OK, yeah, you're not
going to read as much of your children.
And sometimes you don't. You say, well, actually, do you
know what? Reading to them will really
help. And it's this whole idea of, OK,
I don't have time to read with my child, OK.
And parents will say, I just have time.
So, you know, in the car in the morning on the way to school,
they've got their book. They read out loud to me.
I'm driving to school. And then I, I quickly sign their
book. There's a place for that.
I'm not saying that's bad, that's great.
You listen to your children better.
Nothing, right? It's absolutely better than
nothing. And on its own it can have a
good impact. Okay, absolutely.
It's good in its own right, but you just, you just can't get
past an experienced reader, someone who's an adult quite
often reading to a child, putting on voices, making it
silly, making it funny, not having to stop every two
sentences and say what do you think will happen next or what?
Just that is so good. And I don't want anyone to, you
know, just hear this bit of me saying that and go, oh, no, no,
it is good to question stuff and I get that, but it's not really
what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about reading for
enjoyment. And I used to love sitting
there. And my mum would read me books
when I went to bed. And I, everybody remembered
them. I talked about one book that my
teacher read to me. I would find time at the end of
every day. And it's called Beaver Towers.
And I remember it now. And I remember there were three
characters who were mechanics. Do you know what their names
were? Go on, Nick and.
And Nick. And I remember it so vividly
thinking, oh, that's hilarious. And I was so hooked by this,
like, fancy story of boy being whisked, whisked away by a kite
to this island. Yeah, and it wasn't, it wasn't
there me going, oh, my teacher just asked me about the
intentions of this character. And that's really enjoyment.
That's full of enjoyment to me. No, I just wanted to hear a
story. And I wanted to hear my teacher
put on the funny voices. And I wanted to be transported
into this world and really, really enjoy it.
And that has value in itself. And we talk about not being read
to. And we're kind of going the
angle of parents here. And I know it's tricky with time
at home. And we're in a society now
that's very different, where both parents are often working
and you do get less and there's time with your children and
you've given them food and oh gosh, it's bedtime, right?
Let's go and read a book. And I've got 3 kids.
I can't read, I can't listen to them all.
I completely get all of that. But we have to, we have to be
really clear that it is on a pedestal though.
If there's one thing you're going to do with your children,
read with them. Yeah, I think, I think that's
the thing, isn't it? You know, we can be sympathetic
and also say, do you know what, it might just be a priority
shift in your household. Maybe there's something else
that they do do or you do do with them or they do
independently, whatever, that maybe maybe that just needs to
be swapped in for a bit of reading time.
I don't know. So you know how I said at the
beginning, we should go back to thinking about me as a kid and
how what maybe would have helped?
So you talked about you being a kid and having your mum read to
you and that thing your teacher reading I, my household when
we're not readers. So my, I lived with my mum, my
sister and my stepdad. No one reads in my household.
So that was one thing. I think if that, if that was
different, I think that could have played into my mind a bit
more if I saw my parents reading or if we read as a family.
We, we just didn't do that. It wasn't a thing.
But picking up books like that, we did the reading that we had
to do for school and my mum would always just doing like my
3 readings a week, whatever, get my reading record signed and it
would always be me reading to her.
But that was it. Do you know what I mean?
And, and I do wonder if if I saw my mum reading for an hour or my
stepdad or my sister, whatever, then maybe I'd pick up a book as
well. So that's definitely a thing
that helps. And, and the second thing is,
yeah, in schools as educators, I think if we think about
solutions as to this as well, a solution to this is we have to
fight for time in the classroom. Let's get that time back.
Or maybe your school already does it.
Protect that time because reading to your class, we've
just established the positive impacts that can have on them.
Don't think, oh, it's wasted time.
It's not them learning, it's not them answering questions, it's
not them independently reading. It's not them decoding to an
adult. No, no, it is a fantastic
opportunity. If they're not getting it at
home, they can at least get it in the one place we definitely
can control, which is with you, the educator at school.
Absolutely. I want to move on to another
barrier here because it links with what we're just saying
about school. So I want to talk about this
barrier we have in terms of the perception of reading as work
like you've just spoken about there.
And I think that plays into why that time is being squeezed and
squeezed and squeezed and squeezed.
It plays into that fact that we think to ourselves, Oh my gosh,
I've just read to my class for 20 minutes.
There's nothing on the paper. I've not done a test style
question. I've not done any inference with
them and seen if they would be able to answer something when it
comes up in a test. That is killing reading for
enjoyment in my opinion, because it's no longer reading for
enjoyment, it's reading for passing a test.
It's reading for answering a question type that might come up
in the future. And I understand why it's
important and I know why we do it.
And I'm not saying we should never ever do any retrieval
questions or what inference work or predictions.
I am you really. Yeah, you're a bit more extreme
than me in terms of you do far less of it.
I still think it's important to do, but I just think you have to
separate them and you have to accept that on it's own, stand
alone, reading a book because it's just a fun book to read is
having an impact which is enough on it's own.
I agree. I think all I need to add to
that is we just, we just need to check ourselves.
Seriously, we just need to stop and think.
Like think, if you're listening to this, you're an educator.
How obsessed have is your school or maybe yourself with
measuring, with measuring stuff? Like we talk about this all the
time on the podcast. How obsessed have we become as a
measurement culture? If we can't measure it, it
doesn't matter. Like, let's just calm down for a
minute and maybe individually you can take yourself out of
that and be like, right, what am I really giving the kids in my
class? Is there something I can do?
Maybe it's a little bit sneaky, but is can I give them 5 minutes
the end of the day where I don't do this, have a thing for 5
minutes and I let them read their book?
I don't know, 5 minutes maybe isn't enough.
But I think we just need to stop, reflect as a school, as an
individual, and make a change. That's like, what else can we
do? We have to change something.
Yeah, completely. And it's that obsession with
being able to see what impact it's had.
I think, come on. OK, we can.
If we did this, we would probably see an impact on
reading scores in general, like you said earlier, because if
children enjoy reading more, they're going to go and pick up
a book and read the rest of the series and improve as a reader.
But it's going to be really hard to track actually what's
happening there. But it.
But the point being, it doesn't matter.
Yeah, we are professional enough and have been trained in enough
in, in, in education and seeing the impact that reading for
enjoyment has that as a like as a kind of culture in our school,
we can do that and say to ourselves, no, I know this is
having an impact. No, I can't point to a
spreadsheet which tells you the percentage of enjoyment for
reading of each children, how it's moved and it's accelerated
progress. No, I can't do that.
Does it mean it's not a good thing?
No, just have some time for reading and if it means you
don't do a specific thing in your afternoon curriculum, more
So what? Yeah, I agree.
So so far, I feel like we're kind of talking about solutions
as we go, right? We've had a lot of solutions.
You know, I say very lightly, we need more money for libraries.
We need to maybe enrich parent culture a bit more.
And there's lots of ways you can do that culture at home with
reading. And we're also saying in the
classroom, there's some things we can do as well.
There's one more thing before we talk about the big 1, and I feel
like people will be waiting for the big one about screen time is
what just interested me when I was when I was doing a bit of
research is representation. So here's a stat for you.
Only one in six books in 2023 featured A racially minoritized
character, which was down from one in three in 2022.
So there's only a one year difference there.
Maybe it's a weirdest. Than a year.
But it just made me think it was always less about the stat.
It was more about, Oh yeah, do you know what?
How much does that come into play, just being represented in
books? How much does you know?
How much will that affect a child picking up a book?
And to me, it's, I think it's fairly obvious.
It's like representation's always been a thing, Like we've
always harped on about we should probably represent everybody and
things because that's how we connect the characters.
That's how we connect to books. So I just think it was a, it was
a, it was a small point. I don't know if you want to add
anything to it, but I just think it's interesting when we're in
this discussion to consider the idea that from a, from an
author's perspective, if you're an author listening to this,
because we've got lots of different avenues of solutions
here, from money to schools to parents.
As authors, it should just be down to are we representing
children in a fairway so that children from different groups
are seeing themselves in books and then wanting to pick up that
book or that series and read more.
I think it's pretty obvious from when I see children get hooked
on books then OK, listen, children aren't a 10 year old
girl from, you know, South London is not just only going to
read books about 10 year old girls from South London.
That's not what we're saying. Or who who profiles with them
racially and their age and their interests and stuff.
OK, obviously we know that's not true.
We know children are going to read a large variety of genres
and books, but we're talking about increasing children
interested in what they're reading.
They're going to be picking up books of things they're
interested in. I just think about some of the
boys who I've taught recently who are obsessed with football
don't necessarily like reading that much.
And this is a subset of boys because there's lots of boys who
love reading, but that subset of boys found a whole series of
autobiographies about famous footballers, OK, Immediately
that represented their interests.
OK. So, yeah, OK, we're talking
about representation in general. And I think that's really,
really important because what you don't want is book after
book after book after book of characters around your age but
aren't really representing your society or your background or
where you've come from, what you are.
We need that to happen. And anyone who sat there saying
anything along the lines of rich not important, who cares what
it. Yeah, yeah, who cares?
It sounds like you care. Sounds like you care that it's
changing, actually. So if your point is, who cares
what colour or background someone is?
Don't care, then if it's changing, why would you care?
You clearly do care. So don't worry about it, mate,
because the only reason that it's going to be picked up more
is because it is important for some people, yeah.
And if you don't think it's important, it's usually from a
place of you've got enough of that representation already.
Yeah. So it's if it's not a problem
for you, then then it doesn't mean it's not a problem for
someone else. Yeah.
And I just think it's it's hard to argue against.
I think it's really important. Why would we not do that in our
books and our genres, etcetera? And again, if we've got a
fantasy book about Centaur, OK, yeah, then yeah, there are no
centaurs out. There, well, I don't know I've.
Been thinking about myself actually if we think about this
podcast recording, we never see your bottom half no if you could
be half or. There's not actually a chair
behind me, I will just say that right now.
But my point here is it is important.
It's strange. There was a dip.
I think also sure, representation of characters and
backgrounds and things like that.
But you know, you've only got to think about, I'm going to say
his name, David Walliams books and those, those those
stereotypes and the jokes, etcetera.
Yeah, OK. It's for an adult audience who
get the nuance and maybe can understand it.
OK. There might be something where
you say it's fine for a kid. It's insane some of the things
that are in that book and it's just not acceptable.
So you do just have to have a line with children.
I think we all agree that. But yeah, I think I think it's
absolutely important. And my point I was going to say
is I also think we need representation in terms of the
authors themselves and their backgrounds and their
experiences from where they've come from, because they're going
to tell different stories. Because what good authors do is
take their experiences and their thoughts and their ideas and put
it through characters and storylines and plots.
So if we managed to diversify that even more, it's only going
to increase and make better the pool of reading for our
children, which will only increasing and get better the
reading for enjoyment levels. Yeah, definitely.
Quick thing you can do as an educator right now or not maybe
right now, but when you're next in school, No, no, right now is
is just do a genuinely like do a bit of an audit.
You don't have to take it super seriously, but just have a look.
Have a look at if you've got a little class library, all there
is a share area library or there is a proper library.
Maybe that's a bit too much of a big job.
It might be a librarians job, but it could just be worth
having a look is is there a fair portion of representation,
proportion of representation in your in your access to books?
You know your school. Especially if if you look at,
you know, your cohort. Yeah.
Is it representative of the children that it's kind of, you
know, you're feeding them these books and saying, go on, kids
enjoy these books, You've got to meet their needs.
And yeah, representation is important.
But also have an audit of what they're interested in.
Yeah. Oh, half my cohort love graphic
novels, comic books, and it's 2% of my library.
OK. If I'm really taking seriously
this enjoyment for reading, I have to represent not only the
people that I'm serving, but also the interests.
Yeah, sure. We have to get.
That and, and, and there is a level of presumption and you
can't, you can't know everything about what people are interested
in. I want to pick up one point
because I know you'll be like, oh, here we go.
Earlier on you said you had a bunch of boys who are interested
in football. So should we, we've got a lot of
boys in my classroom. Should I just be then going out
and getting tonnes of football books and assuming that's all
they want? Exactly.
No, you want you want to expose them to lots, but we're talking
about gateways of getting children reading.
Yeah, OK. You have to meet them where they
are. You know, like, like people who
sneer audio books and they'll sneer at the comic books that
I've been talking about all the sneer at the non fiction
autobiographies of these footballers.
And you know, and it could be a girl.
Of course, I'm not making up. But I'm just saying from my
experience that this was a gateway for the children to get
reading more. And we have to meet them there
to get them reading more first. Because once that's unlocked,
you can shift them, you can point them in other directions,
you can get them reading more. But I, I ultimately I want the
children to read and me meeting them where their interests are,
if that gets them reading, that's the first part of my job.
So. There's the other thing that
could have done with me as a kid then you mentioned this earlier.
I think if some educators had maybe just better fostered what
I clearly enjoyed, reading, which was quite niche reading.
Teachers listening to I'm just. A little bit.
I'm just saying. Just saying, teachers, come on,
I don't enjoy reading now it's your fault.
It's not if it is one factor. I think if maybe there was a bit
more representation for the stuff I liked reading in class
other than that literal one science book that I remember so
well, I I might have picked up more books.
I don't know, maybe. Interesting.
Let's go to the last one then. Something that people might be
talking about a lot and thinking about if we've got this
decreased massive interest in reading and people aren't
reading for enjoyment as much as possible, what's changed in the
last 20 years? I'm just gonna check my phone.
Hang on. Have a look.
I don't know, let me just get my iPad where I've got my notes for
this podcast. I think what I'll do that thing
that we always do when, when I pick up my phone to do one thing
and I immediately get distracted by other things.
And then suddenly I'm on just doing reals.
I'm scrolling and oh, I just actually opened it to check an
e-mail to see if an Amazon delivery was on the way.
And now I'm suddenly on Tiktok. And you spent 15 minutes doing
anything but put your phone down and go, what was I doing?
What was, I think, Oh yeah. And then you do it again.
We joke about it because we do it and it's and it's madness and
we're adults, children. I just, it's going to sound
really boomerish, I know, but Greens, no.
I'm. Going to be really specific
because I know you'll open me up and I agree on this by the way,
because it's hard. You've got to distinguish
between it, not screens. Social media and particular apps
that children have access to on screens are absolutely
destroying their brains. Absolutely.
It is rotting their brains. It is rotting their attention
spans. Yeah, you, you forgot that I
started thinking about scrolling through Tick Tock again.
I got hooked by the idea of that.
I think we have to, we have to explore this.
We have to go into this. OK, Yeah, because you're
absolutely right. And I think we need to make
clear to people our opinions as well.
And it's rooted in research and what people have seen.
As for ABBC article recently talking about this, and there is
a difference and between screens, not all screen time is
equal. No, not all screen time is the
same. We cannot just say screen time
equals bad. There's a lot of screen time
that children can have which enriches them and and improves
that. Like, for example, if a child
has a Kindle and they read books on it, it's not automatically
bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And equivalent to if a child has an iPad and they're scrolling
through Instagram for the same period of time.
The algorithm and social media and that whole kind of side of
brain rot. And, you know, sticking the kid
in front of a YouTube, YouTube video, which is an hour long and
has loads of flashing lights and keeps them stimulated and almost
like a zombie for a bit because you need to be quiet and just
stay in the corner. That is very, very, very, very,
very, very different to screen time in other ways.
So just saying, OK, screen time's increased in general
isn't that bad. No, But why?
Why then has technology and therefore children having more
and more screen time? Why is that?
Impacting do you think reading for enjoyment and the amount of
that children are reading? I think it's the whole dopamine
thing. In all, I think it's the whole
getting such instant constant gratification in your brain
watching 10 seconds reel after 10 seconds infinite scroll.
You know, like people talk about the even the person that
invented the infinite scroll was like, Oh my God, what have I
done? You know, I don't know how true
that is, but people say that was it you you hear me?
What have? I done what have I enjoyed
reading. Invented the infinite scroll.
When I was a kid, yeah, I was like, I'll show them.
I'll make nobody enjoy reading. We live in a race to the bottom
culture. You join me?
No, but I do think that's the reason I think reading a book,
it requires a lot of attention over a lot of time.
It's a lengthy process, generally reading.
Obviously get short books as well do.
You think that's maybe why you tend to start a book and don't
finish it? Do you think you're in that
world a bit or I? Think even if it's because of
that, because I've always been like that, even if as a kid I'd
I'd try and make myself read stuff.
I I just get a bit bored too quickly.
I think I think I. So these problems existed
already is what I'm saying. Yeah, 100% So, yeah.
But do you think that this kind of social media algorithm.
Swiping has exactly because I won't pick up a book now.
That's the difference. I mean, in general for people
like this, this is what people will say.
They'll they'll flip it and say there's always been children
like this. But but is I think it's
exacerbated. Yeah, I think the stats we've
gone through a show if it's got loads worse, I think they I
think there's every stat we've shown, I think it shows that
it's always been a problem. It's just got a lot worse and
we're going through the reasons it's got a lot worse.
And I think it'd be mad to ignore the fact that, you know,
once it gets it gets termed as iPad kids, whatever.
You know, that whole idea of like they're just constantly on
that they're not that, you know, they could be reading, they
could be on a Kindle that looks like an iPad and they're reading
and some some people go, oh, get them off that.
Oh no, that's all right. But.
I'll screen time, but the vast majority of it is vast.
Majority is not it's instant gratification really like like
fast food for media. Isn't it it it it's it's clearly
impacting kids attention spans. You can see it happening.
Yeah, Yeah. So does that match with what you
see over? You know, we've talked about how
maybe you said there's been a dip in reading for enjoyment,
but you said the last few years even more.
So do you think that kind of tracks with how much social
media is kind of and we're we're coming from the primary school
perspective. I must be insane in secondary
schools. Yeah.
Do you think that it kind of it? Correlates with 100% I think is
the reason, yeah, I think that is the reason for the social
media. I think there's all the other
reasons we've talked about are, are all factors into why
children aren't, you know, generally enjoying.
Yeah, austerity didn't help. Yeah, exactly that sort of
stuff, right. You know, kids not having books
in front of them. But in terms of the massive dip
I've seen in the last couple of years, particularly of year 60s
where they are just that bit older, like nearly at that
secondary school age. It's it's yeah.
Because they're coming in talking about how they spent six
hours on TikTok last night and they're all, they're all
competing on that screen time and how all mine's 26 hours this
week on TikTok and they come in saying some kind of Italian
brain rot LA. La La La La La La La La.
I don't what are you. Talking about getting me to try
and do it and I don't know what it is I normally keep.
I'm normally quite good at staying up to date.
I'm past it now. I can't catch me out, but I know
that meme. I know this joke, I know this
trend. And yeah, they come in now and
I'm. I don't, I don't.
Know I did have a moment with my lot because even like that kind
of brainwashed stuff does creep around the whole school as well
as soon it's in the school is on the playground.
Yeah, it's find it funny. And I did think back to like,
did we have that when I was younger?
Because I didn't want to turn into that immediate kind of
boom. I was like, not in my day.
We just sat and read because obviously we didn't.
But I just thought the crazy frog.
Yeah, it was a good day because Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding,
Ding. Of course when we walked into
school doing the crazy frog, I can imagine teachers being like,
oh, back in my day. And having it on our Nokia
phones as our ringtones, is everyone playing it?
Yeah. Teachers must be looking at the
thing like ah. But it is worse.
Yeah, it is worse. It's just way more.
It's way more spread in our society now.
And I just want to end on the fact that I completely back a
ban of smartphones in school. I back that completely.
Oh. But my kid needs it for
communication. They.
Go home, get Nokia, get Nokia 3310.
Yeah, okay. And you know, they don't need
it. They just don't.
Yeah, they just don't. If they're walking home, they
can have a flip phone. They do not need a social media
algorithm in their pocket whilst they're learning lessons in high
school. It's it's it's as simple as
well. My kid likes it at break time.
Helps them relax tough. Oh, well, I find something else.
Yeah, they can do at home then. Yeah, yeah, literally like it.
OK, is the answer to everything. My kid likes it, therefore it
should be. Yeah, my kid likes playing their
Xbox at home to relax. I'm not giving them that a
school. They're completely exact.
I mean, in the form room. You might get that in sixth form
these days. I hope you hear of it, but you
know, no. There's no money for an Xbox.
Yeah, A. 12 year old though, no, they're not having.
You have to as well as educators.
Sometimes you have to just say no.
Yeah. It's like it's not just parent
rule. No parent says, OK, my kid likes
this. It's like, cool, I understand
that. But here are the reasons why we
don't do it in this school. Yeah.
And that is the rule, and it's as simplest.
I'm sure your kid likes wearing their own clothes as well, but
we have a school uniform policy here.
It's a school. We have policies and rules and
you can follow it or you can not.
Yeah. And as long as everything's
backed up, I think it's completely fine.
Yeah, we've talked a million times about how some rules are
just a bit insane and how maybe they're not rooted in reasoning.
But you don't have to agree with every rule.
No you can. You are going to get scores with
different rules and again it's the same point.
My opinion is if I were to run a school you would not be allowed
to have your phone on you during the school day.
You can come and put it in a zip lock pocket.
Yeah, I've seen that that's quite a problem.
Isn't it brilliant? Because then you can have it on
your way home. I'm not meekly not going to sit
and police you at home. And what you should do at home.
You can have an iPhone if you want to have an iPhone, Yeah,
OK, fine, go for it. But in the school building,
you're not having it in your pocket.
Yeah. Yeah, it's happening and I get
the pressures of parents. I've spoke to a lot of parents
who say I just don't want my kid to be the only one that doesn't
have the phone. But I get, I get it.
I know it's a negative thing. I just don't want my kid to be
the only one in the class doesn't have the phone.
So I totally get the pressures. And it's like, yeah, OK, well
let's just work around it then by doing stuff like.
That yeah, equalise it in school.
All right, fine, they can have the phone.
But here are some things you can do.
Here's some things we can do at school.
We can take complete control of that for you.
They don't have it all day. Here's some other things you can
do at home. We'll be the bad guys, you know,
we'll be about and you can get home.
OK, fine. I can still educate and say why
I still think it's a bad idea that they go home and they send
TikTok for six hours. I think there's ways you can
have smartphones and tablets and technology that aren't going to
brain rot your child. OK, there's ways you can do
this. Not it's like we said earlier,
screen time isn't equally bad. When I was younger, I spent a
lot of time watching Cartoon Network, kind of a screen that
was a screen. It's just not automatically bad.
But we have to have to have to differentiate between what the
algorithm's doing to our attention spans for the children
and taking away time where they can be reading and finding books
they love. Bring back Simpsons at 6:00.
That's what I'm saying. Double on a Friday, double on a
Friday. Remember that?
That's that was my that was my screen time.
And look how you turned out, how you.
Reading so maybe it wasn't bad. So here's here's a question for
you then. Are are we hypocrites because we
make social media content for this podcast?
No, of course we're not. No, of course we're not.
Like, even the idea of that makes me annoyed.
Why? Because social media and content
exists and you can be an adult person and whether you think
you've got a problem because you spend too much on it or not, OK,
cool. I can't.
We can't not create stuff because you might get a child
who manages to access it through their home life and their their
parents choices. It's the same thing.
Like, OK, is Quentin Tarantino a awful hypocrite because a child
might pick up a DVD at home and put on the DVD player and watch
one of his 18 plus films? These things still can exist.
And I think also our content is very safe.
We've talked a lot before. If we if we're marketing towards
children from this podcast and we sit there and we do age,
that's completely age inappropriate.
That is absolutely our fault, but it's not.
It's not what we're doing at all.
So if we turn into KSI and the. Start making YouTube.
Yeah, like I, I've talked about it a million times.
I think we do a episode in the future.
I really do. But when they are so clearly
marketing towards children and everything they do, and then
they release a podcast and within two minutes they're
talking about adult content, Yeah, I just think.
You are at fault for that. Yeah, like that is your fault.
But that's this whole separate conversation.
I agree. And it kind of goes back to the
original question you asked me. Am IA hypocrite for not reading
at home whilst saying to children it's really important.
It's like, no, because I'm an adult and I've got through that.
I've it's different. Yeah.
Like they can both coexist. And you can you can also think
that you it would be good if you, when you were younger, had
a different outcome. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. It doesn't mean, Oh well, I'm
like this. There's the classic thing, like
on a Tiktok comment sometimes, well, I'm like this and it never
hurt me. Google, like great.
Does that mean that it's just not a thing?
Then we just ignore that it's reading for enjoyment.
I watched 18 plus films when I was 14.
It didn't hurt me. Yeah, well, you're leaving
random tik toks on a comment on a thing that you've never seen
before, so it might have affected you.
Yeah, no, I agree though. Yeah, it might not hurt someone.
Yeah, cool might not, but yeah, it does.
But. Let's play the game a bit and we
can't just say, well, that's that then I guess.
No, there are lots of ways. So let's just wrap this up then.
What works when we're trying to encourage reading for pleasure?
Let's let's just bash through some very quick ideas now.
First thing for me is autonomy, free choice, letting the child
lead it, meeting them where they are, and then going from there.
If a child wants to read an encyclopaedia because they just
happen to have a real, real interest in this, I don't know,
it's an animal encyclopaedia and they want to sit down and read
it for half an hour. Don't fret because they're not
getting a whole different genre subset that you want to in your
head thinks really important. They're reading crack on.
When I was a kid, I picked up the newspaper and I read match
reports for football because I was obsessed with football and I
was reading, reading, reading, reading, reading.
It's fine. Whatever form reading comes in.
Let your child lead you, especially if they're a
reluctant reader. I'm talking about here, we're
trying to improve reading for enjoyment.
Let them lead you to the reading and just think, is this reading?
It's an audio book. It's fine.
They're going to enjoy that story.
Cool. It's a, it's a newspaper, it's
fine. You, you've read it, you've read
the article. It's all good.
You're going to do that too. They're they're going through an
instruction set when they're building something in the toy
set they've got and they're sat there reading the instructions.
Amazing. They're doing a board game and
they're explaining the rules to you.
They read it themselves. Unbelievable.
This is all reading and it should be celebrated and not Oh
no, you've not read Wind in the Willows and The Lost Key of Beef
and Chip. It's fine.
I don't know. I think we should maybe put beef
and chip on a pedestal. I'm just, I think a bit a bit
far over the bar with that. One I'm.
Sorry, I'm sorry, another thing we can do a bit.
A big win, shared reading. And there's 22 aspects to this,
like literally reading as an educator in your in your class,
you read into the class, maybe even a child reading or in those
lessons where you can get the lots of children to do reading
or guided reading. So just sharing reading in
class, but also like sharing things you like about reading in
class. It's quite easy actually.
I'm not I'm saying whip up a display because I hate displays,
but it's quite easy to have somewhere in your classroom a
place where kids write little book reviews.
It's a really cute idea. Yeah.
It's super easy. Just post it notes.
I I recommend this book because of this reason.
And then someone else picks it up and you could, you can go as
far down that fun Ave as you want.
You can have, you could have different genres for this.
And then people go to the genre they like and pick up a posting
note. Oh, someone's recommended me
this. There's loads of little things
you can do to share the love of reading in a classroom, even if
you yourself as a teacher are not the font of all that
knowledge. The kids are reading more books
than you are. Some of them are, at least.
Yeah, most, yeah, probably are realistically like, at least as
a collective, they're reading. They're, you know, 32 kids in
the class and majority of them are reading a book.
Hopefully all of them. Like there's so much content and
knowledge there for them to get out and and recommend to each
other. So yeah, just foster this idea
of sharing reading in the classroom.
And the last point I think is the hardest.
I think those two are things we can do very quickly, but we have
to build back up that culture of home reading.
But you spoke about it yourself. You're in a family who are very
supportive, very loving family, no issues at all.
But reading just wasn't on that pedestal.
It just wasn't there. And a little bit more in my
house it was. And again, if I track how much
I'm reading now is an adult compared to you, I read more
than you. Is is there a link there?
Probably, probably. And it's really important to
foster that culture and it comes from lots of places.
And I think it's counterproductive sometimes to
just point at home and go, well, you're not doing it at home,
it's your problem. Okay, cool that that can be
true, but it's not helpful to say that.
What's helpful is to look at maybe what the underlying
reasons are. Are the parents themselves left
less confident of reading? Do they need more support?
Do we need to instil something or places they can go?
Do they even know where their local libraries?
Libraries have closed. I think nearly 20% of libraries
have closed since 2010. So it's on the decrease, but
there are still libraries out there.
Even myself as a someone who does enjoy reading, I didn't
really know where my local libraries were until I have my
son. And I thought to myself, oh
where is the local library? It's a 2 minute walk down my Rd.
It's lovely. It's.
Really nice and he loves it in there and that's something I
didn't know before I had my own child.
But you know as a teacher, it's what came into my head.
It won't come into lots of parents heads to do that and
I've just got that statistic here very quickly. 30% say
reading is not part of their family life.
That's three and 10. That's a lot of kids in your
class that's about 10 kids in your class you think and reading
is not a part of their home life.
And if you just think how much of an impact that's going to
have on their outcomes and is if as schools, we are really,
really worried and the only thing that's what's important is
test results. And we talk about how ridiculous
that mentality is. But if that is how your school
is, it doesn't make a difference in this respect because that's
going to impact those scores. So even if you need to meet your
senior leadership team there, because all they care about is
the Sats, this is going to also have the impact there as well.
It's not, it's not either or it's OK, but reading for
enjoyment is really important. So we foster this culture at
home. It's going to impact our scores
anyway. So it's still going to be a good
thing. Yeah, I agree.
And we are a society in the day, and when we help in lots of
ways, a society helps people in lots of ways.
It's not condescending. Like I think sometimes people
think that, oh, it's condescending.
Tell parents what to do. It's not telling parents what to
do. It's just keeping people
informed. Oh, yeah, local libraries around
here. Or did you know you can get this
deal? Or did you know you can do this?
Yeah. Is it condescending for a doctor
to say you should lower your blood pressure?
Of course it's not condescending.
No. It's just a fact of life that if
we do make these small changes, build habits, you are more
likely to have a more positive outcome in the end.
So of course we should do this was.
It condescending for the government 20 years ago to set
up as a Sure Start centres to help. 20 years ago, this kind,
yeah, yeah, it was way better. Is that it's a New Labour thing.
It was like it was a long time ago.
And but you're right though I'm nitpicking here, but it was when
we were kids we benefited from. Yeah, because in my head I was a
little kid 20 years ago. I'm actually like mid. 30s Yeah,
you. It doesn't matter.
Don't read it. Don't worry, I don't. 20 for
pleasure. 20 plus covering my. Age yeah do you know I'll read
for pleasure. You're best difficult look in
1980s. Whoa, whoa, absolutely not.
Don't even listen to who are. I think if you're calling
yourself old, sorry guys, sorry guys.
But yeah, in general, I think the reason we're passionate
about this is reading for pleasure.
Whether we personally spend lots of our time doing it or not, we
see the impact it has on the outcomes of children and we want
the best for our kids. So whenever we're talking about
this, we're not being condescending.
We're not trying to point the finger and blame anyone.
We are simply saying a fact, which is that if a child enjoys
reading, they will become better at reading than they were
beforehand, and that is a good thing.
So we need to try and facilitate that as much as we can.
Absolutely. We've talked about lots of
reasons why and hopefully some of those things are useful for
you as an educator, as a parent. Whoever you are listening to
this podcast and whoever you are listening to this podcast, you
can absolutely leave us a review.
I think so. I think you should reading for
enjoyment or I'm going to read the menu that says rating and
I'm gonna read the stars. Read all five of them I I.
Don't think guys, it was a review already helps us share
this podcast with someone who you might think will find it
used for, and we'll catch you next week for another one.
See you then.