Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode
of Teach Sleep. Repeat.
My name is Dylan and my name is Hayden, and we are the Men in
black. Are we really are the men in
black? We did not.
Is that brand new top? Brand new top.
Yeah. So.
When I walked in the black top this morning, did your heart
sink a bit? I didn't notice because
obviously I don't notice these things until we sit in front of
a camera and go, oh look, we were in the same thing.
A vast majority of people don't watch this podcast so that
first. Made me customers.
Was a complete waste of your time.
How you doing? I'm alright.
Remember we first, we first went on on video, right?
And we kept making jokes about it and we were saying, oh,
you're so weird for watching us. And now it's just normal.
Yeah, it's quite normal to have stalkers, I think.
Who wants everything? That's what you are, isn't it?
Really. Who does watch on it?
Give us a message because apparently it's a lot of you.
Apparently on the stats on Spotify.
Apparently I didn't have anyone watching me on this week's
podcast. Yeah.
How's your week been? We've been back at school.
Haven't. Back at school after a lovely
trip to Centre Parks, we spoke about last.
Week What was more tiring, the holiday or the work you work
actually you. Being around you more often.
Was very tired. Why was that?
Business the holiday. I was so knackered that weekend.
We got back. Couldn't believe it.
But it was good. It was worth.
It it's always good when you finish a holiday much more tired
than when you went on it. I said to my mum and she was
like, ohh, she's like, that is just what it's like for kids.
She's like it's the sign of a good holiday.
If you come back knackered it's because you were doing
everything you could to try and make it nice for them.
And it's lovely because they'll never, ever remember it, and it
might as well have not happened. For them, no.
But we've got, we've got some pictures of it.
We got a picture of them in the bath we can embarrass them with
when they're older. It's fine.
I've seen, I've had a quick look at the notes and I've just seen
something that says Apple pie story.
Apple pie store. That's vague enough for me to
be, really. Interested.
I'm looking forward to telling this story.
So yesterday I went to one of us.
So just for context, we have a choosing business and I went to
one of our choosers houses who's going to be taking over a bit
of. Workload and he's going to work
to run the business with me. You no taking over.
We we run mock tests through the year and it was just a little
event and he's going to take over that role of like managing
them, right. So I said, I'll come round,
we'll run through all get you set up.
And because it was quite late, I said, jump me to bring some
dinner. You know, we'll just get a
takeaway or something. So we decided on on a
McDonald's, a cheeky McDonald's, and that was great.
At the time he was with another colleague who is both his friend
and also a tutor for us who said, ohh, I want an apple pie.
And I thought they were joking. I was on my way to McDonald's.
I thought it was just me. She doesn't even live with him.
I mean, I thought, no, that's not happening.
And then they text me as I was at McDonald's.
Are you actually getting the apple pie?
And I thought, I thought it was a joke, but OK, I'll get the
apple pie. That's fine.
I'll drop it to her house. Whatever.
There you go, Texas saying you're lucky.
You know you better enjoy this apple pie.
Was that the exact language you? Used Yeah, I I was really nice
in my language. I didn't use any expletives when
I spoke to. Her definitely not.
I said you better enjoy this apple pie.
You're a lovely woman, is what I said to her.
And then I was driving away from McDonald's and I just had a
feeling, you know, my McDonald's senses.
I. Don't wanna do anything for her.
That's what you thought. I just I just feeling inside.
Ohh it's still gonna hate you when I replace him.
But she gave me the bag McDonald's, and I thought, I
just feel like there's, it should have felt more heavy.
How often do you go to my doubles that you can lift up the
bag and go I'm missing or something?
I knew one of my five items is missing.
This is not. Waiting right?
I wasn't I was bloody right. So I pulled I was driving at
McDonald's and I thought no I'm going to stop and check cause be
annoying if I go there and something missing something
missing. The McDonald's Whisperer.
I looked in. I closed my eyes.
Obviously I did it all from smell.
Something's missing in here. I can't can't smell the.
Apple I'm getting, I'm getting cheeky.
Muggy I'm getting double cheeseburger.
No backing. Did and actually what I realised
was I had the complete wrong order.
I didn't even have our order at all.
I was like, we didn't order any of this stuff.
So I was like oh bloody hell. Took it back into McDonald's at
that point. I picked up the drinks that she
gave me first and realised they weren't even the drinks I
ordered. Probably should have noticed at
that point when she gave me two drinks that weren't the drinks.
Anyway, went in and I said oh sorry, but this is not my order.
I've got someone else's order and was a lady said next to me
and she was like, oh, is that the old chicken selects meal and
two Cokes? Yeah, this is yours.
He's like, yeah, I drove past the window, didn't realise where
to stop and then you, you were the car behind.
Me. Sorry.
Let's go through her thought process.
I know. Go through the drive through.
I'll order my food, I'll pay for my food, and then I'll go home.
And go to the next window please.
OK, what countries left McDonald's?
So she thought she held her back.
Didn't exist. It was a bit light.
I know I did think what? What do you mean you missed?
You missed the window where you get your food and you don't
know. How many Tesco put your whole
chart for it and just going good day, yeah, you've paid backing
out. So I thought, OK, well it wasn't
McDonald's fault really, that she just, she just did it wrong.
So I stood there waiting and explained the situation, very
apologetic. And then they found my meal
because the next person obviously was like, this isn't
my meal out the window. A sensible person that actually
realises when the drinks are wrong and I say put it to the
side, found one. I said, really, where you have
your meal, all good. I was like, no, no worries, no
worries, all fine. And I thought, I'm not going to
check it again. No, not check.
They obviously checked it now because I've told them to go.
I've told them exactly what my order was, of course.
And so I, I drive to, I'm going to name a Tasha's house.
She listens and she listens fine.
Drives Tasha's house and she was, you know, extremely excited
about this apple pie for. She came bounding over.
Came bounding out of her door like ohh my apple pie, something
like that. Sound music.
She can confirm that's it. That's how she came out the
door. I can actually really imagine
her doing. Back to that specifically, Tash.
Yeah. Very, very her, isn't it?
Flamboyant of an Extremely flamboyant.
Yeah. Running out of her door, big
smile on her face like she was. I didn't actually expect you to
do this. This is the biggest treat.
You're probably the nicest person I know.
You're my favourite human being. Didn't say that.
No, No. But she came to the window.
Her eyes said it. Yeah, her eye said it exactly.
A body language eyes, You know, the fact she had no shoes on.
She was so excited. And I said right, go on then.
It's in one of these two bags. Sorry.
You you noticed that she had no shoes on and you noticed about
the McDonald's you're some kind of like.
You got Spidey senses? I've got like eyes or something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I said in one of these
bags, open them up. So I opened one bag, shoved one
bag. She's excited looking through
all right, Like that one's looking through my bag.
I was like, ohh, it's not in here either.
And the apple pie wasn't there. And she was gutted, but but held
it and has, is now holding it personally against me to make
that clear. She was like, you owe me.
You owe me an apple pie. I.
Think each day that goes past apple pie increases by 1 couple
months now, Yeah. So I don't know how to feel
about that. Is that my fault?
I would say absolutely, because it's you.
If it was anyone else, obviously, because it is you
who's gone through this whole thing, through the whole ordeal
of holding a bag from McDonald's and go, no, no, no, that is not
my order. But then for some reason I don't
check it again. I know.
It was wrong with me. I just checked.
I thought, no, they can't get it wrong.
The main thing that's come out of this story for me is I really
want to line up five bags of McDonald's food, right?
Completely random. Get to hold them and tell me
what's in them. And see successful all three,
actually a medium prize and two large fries in that one.
Yeah, yeah, I know. OK, we've done this before, but
I'm gonna ask you right now because it is vital information.
OK, What's your go to order? McDonald's.
You're hungry driving home from work.
You know that. Even it's late.
Go through McDonald's, right? Gonna fill my boots here.
What do you? Get so I can't remember to be
adventurous. Big Mac meal, no cheese,
obviously. I wish I didn't ask, honest.
Cheese. Yeah.
Cheese. Big white meal, No cheese Drink
Oasis. Anything else?
And hamburger. Yeah, I knew it was coming.
Getting that like 3 bites. Yeah, exactly.
But I was looking at McDonald's menu yesterday and they had this
like triple thing that just three for 3 lbs Yeah, no, it was
like a burger with three burgers in it.
But the hat trick burger, Patrick burger, yeah, I looked
at it. I was like ohh, that could be
quite nice. And then I realised that cheese
was the main element and I took out the cheese.
It would literally just be. Three burgers on top, three
slabs of mince in a bread bun, 3 slabs.
Slabs of rancid mince. You know, I thought probably not
the best idea for anyway. It doesn't know.
Completely insane. Hayden doesn't like cheese.
No, he's not tolerant. He's not vegan.
I am. He's not, he's not.
And he he just doesn't actually like geez, I think it's
disgusting. I still can't get my.
Head. It's disgusting.
Is is the most disgusting food on this planet.
It's absolutely revolting. Rancid.
Interesting, that'll be the pollen on this if you're on
Spotify right now. There is a whole cult of us like
we all know each other. Preview when I walk around.
You. Rishi and ohh, I don't know.
The third one. Oh, no, I'm just testing.
I'm testing you. Yeah.
We walk on the street. I'm like, right, we not.
We know. Obviously.
We know each. Other Is it because I don't even
know? This is the lack of calcium from
the milk we don't drink. Another horribly pale person.
Ohh, Jason. Jason.
I mean, I'm, I'm really pale, so I like to.
Have my photo taken, dear. Cheese.
Ohh always freaks me out. Like when they're seeing those
black and white you're flashbacks in your head.
Cheese you back to your childhood of being forced and
just eat it. Eat your dinner, Hayden.
Eat I do have one of them. Well, I memory of like where I
think of well, actually, because I was forced to eat lasagna at
school. Genuinely, really, genuinely
forced to eat lasagna. I was in maybe a three and I had
a school. I don't normally have school
dinners, but for some reason I had school dinners that day and
it was lasagna and it was cheesy lasagna.
Oh my God, and they would not have didn't want to eat it.
And it wasn't even being I wasn't trying to be horrible.
I literally just said something I really, really, really don't
like. I just don't meet this and
they're like, we're not going to write to eat it.
And I sat there the whole whole hour.
They wouldn't leave. They would not let me go until
they lasagna. I probably had like one mouthful
of it in the end around for dinner time.
No, because I know what you do. You'll throw cheese at me.
Yeah, yeah. What do you think about that in
general in school? Because we.
Ohh. Wait, let me just check.
Ohh Yeah, This is the teacher podcast.
Let's talk. Ohh.
Yeah. So do what do you think about
kids who just refused to eat at lunchtime?
Where's the line? Because they eat something.
Weird, isn't it? Probably, Probably more labelled
liberal than ever because experience.
I'd be like any kid that says now, but OK, bye.
Because I'm like, I don't want to repeat.
To Stevens my. Go.
Just go. No, no, my son.
Sorry. It's the end of day.
I want to catch you quickly. My son he's not been eating his
lunches for. Weeks I know ohh, you know about
this already. I do.
I know very well. OK, so you've been trying I've
been encouraging him to to eat all of his dinner.
I've been encouraging him to leave his dinner if he doesn't
like No, no, but he no Mr Stevens, listen, he comes home
starving everyday Yes, and I know he does actually like it.
He does because he's at home. So can you just please make sure
he eats it? I won't I won't do it.
What What? That's part of your job, Mr.
It's not part of my job. We've had a whole discussion
about this on our podcast. You should.
But basically with me while I was on Instagram.
Yeah, I don't know, I I would hate to punish children for not
liking food. Yeah, I find that insane.
But sometimes. But like you said, sometimes
we've all been there as a kid where you're just being stubborn
and actually you wanted something else.
You didn't get it. So now I'm not eating.
This. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there is a line where it's like, OK, yeah.
It's like everything we talk about on this podcast and a line
somewhere we decided the problem is probably funding some sort of
somehow funding's fault. It's the Tories.
I think it's the Tories and that's why you listen to the
podcast guys, for that incredible insight into all the
problems that we have in teaching.
So apple pie. Great.
Good stuff. How are you?
I'm. Fine, I'm absolutely fine.
I've been thinking about the fact that your notes are when
this is about us. Well then your notes are
terrible. That's not fun.
Mine says apple pie story. Where's Where's the?
Fun in that? Ohh.
Let me explain why this Sunday, which is after we record this,
carry on this, after we record this podcast, but before it's
been released. So it's happened already.
So I had a great Father's Day. Did you?
Ohh yes and also yesterday had a great father's.
Day. I think yesterday was fantastic
and I would think that all of the surprises were very
surprising. To me, all of the fathers were
laughing like this. What a great day.
But the only thing is to have a Father's Day is we've got a BBQ
at my parents house, we're gonna go to everyone that's on the
afternoon. But then Lauren said to me
yesterday, what are you doing in the morning on a on Father's
Day? And I was like, ohh, nothing
actually I'm not doing anything, I'm free.
She went ohh, OK, alright then. So I spent the rest of the day
thinking, ohh, I gotta say, yeah, it's like, ohh, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna cry. But that sounds quite nice.
And then then later on we were organised in an interview we
have with like something to our business and we and the person
could do Sunday morning. And I was like, no, no, no, no,
no, no. Don't think I can do Sunday
morning because I've been asked about it.
I've got to keep that clear. I'll just check when because we
can work around it. So by the way, Lauren, what what
is going on Sunday morning? Nothing I said but you no sorry.
Ohh, earlier you asked me what? I'm doing.
You're crying at this point, it was just a long don't worry
about. That I said, ohh, earlier you
you just asked me what's going on Sunday morning.
So I just thought, are we? And she was like, oh, no wonder
what you're doing. Yeah.
So so I said to you nothing. And you went, that's OK.
Yeah, I could do the interview. So Sunday morning, having a nice
little chat with someone. Yeah, one of our people like an
interview really. Is it just talk about something?
But yeah, that, that that was, that was fun.
I honestly thought, like, that's lovely, isn't it?
Yeah, lovely. That's something in the morning
for my first Father's Day. Yeah, I'll be doing nothing.
Did you do anything on Mother's Day though's first mother's?
Day I don't remember. So that's a no.
I think we did. I think I got, I think I got
paid Rory's feet and put his feet somewhere.
Yeah, on a card or something. Fair enough.
The Wall. Yeah, Chuck some painters.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's nice, isn't it? It's nice.
That's my notes, farmers name. It's not I've got another.
I've got another thing that actually just thought without
looking at. Ohh please tell me about how
insane the amount of work you know.
I don't know, I just read your mind.
It's like a McDonald's. Well, last week before we
started back at work, I was talking.
You picked me up and went, that's all he's got to talk
about. It feels better.
There's no buying there, son. Inside and the only thing I was
going to say was last week we said, isn't time 6 lovely?
Isn't time 6 great? The weather is so good, My
favourite times. Then I had a week back and I
remembered how insane it is. Like I just thought straight
away I was like, oh, there's four things that I need to do in
the next two weeks and that all massive jobs and I've got to
continue actually doing my full teaching schedule, which is in
itself a full time job. And I've got some planet and
I've got some market. But by the way, you still got
staff meetings. And also, can you please write
and all your reports? And not only write all your
reports, can you then proofread all the reports from someone
else please? The same amount of time.
By the way, there's a Twilight as well.
We've got some training. Really nice.
Ohh. It's weird that you only found
about found out about writing reports last week.
Well, Hayden, how do you expect me to proofread reports before,
before, before the deadline when people aren't finished?
I said writing, not proofreading.
Well, writing. My own fault.
I'll be doing that. This weekend.
Ohh, quite hilarious. Golden week one, I've got to
write my report. For writing this is where my
mind place was when I was doing my reports right clearly,
because I was still so in year three, right in in year three,
we did Sikhism and I remember I absolutely loved that whole
unit. I remember thinking to myself,
I'm not very religious person. I remember thinking after this
season, this religion, I can I can I really like the whole idea
of service and the community and helping people like that.
So whenever we've been Davari now, because obviously in the
chat. So we do a lot of Christianity,
everything of RI think of Christianity, then we do it.
Sexism. That's lovely.
Yeah. So in year four now, I mean,
year four, we do Hinduism, which is another big religion.
And I remember teaching about Hinduism and the beliefs of
karma and reincarnation. Yeah.
Well, karma reincarnation, although my dears and I was
like, this is cool. Isn't all really good?
Ari is really cool. We get to know all these
cultures. You have nothing to know about
others. And we talked about how Rishi
Sunak's Hindu. Is he?
Yeah, he's Hindu, the first practising Hindu to become Prime
Minister and all this really cool chat about Hinduism.
So I was writing my reports away.
I've done all my reports, I've done all my mass reports, I've
just got a few bits and bobs to do now to finish off because I
share them with Amy, obviously my job share and she just
messaged me yesterday going. Have you done your reports?
And I was like, yeah, she's like, Oh yeah, I thought you'd,
because, you know, we did, we know we did Hinduism this year,
not Sikhism. I'd written Sikhism and then
every single report and I said, I he really, he really does
grass the understanding of the Sikh religion and the culture
and the ideas of reincarnation and the ideas of karma.
So I got all these, I got all the individual parts of Hinduism
correct. I just called it.
Egoism. OK, because.
Of that, yeah. Yeah.
So I just literally labelled the seekers because I was like
seekers him. What a lovely.
Religion. Much further idea of you making
up 32 statements for all your kids about how much they love,
completely exposing that none of it's real.
Because they didn't do it. The 5K's, they know all about
the 5K and how they wear the silver bracelets and all that.
Yeah, all that. Gonna carry a sword.
And I don't think that's it. That's how Linda was actually.
So I got it right. But I'd literally I'd written
season every single one because I'll go and change.
That right now so would you know my.
Speakers. And it says here that you
understand the culture of it. So what can you tell me about
it? Yeah.
So yeah, that was my story about reports.
Love that, very good, very you. Have you got anything else?
For you, so I was just gonna reflect on it's a less funny
thing a few a funny thing. I can't say the word last.
Think you're fine? My mind think you'll find the
word is. Lesser, lesser, lesser few funny
but want to our business for a minute because we don't talk.
Cry these guys. We look forward to that.
We. Don't talk about it much.
It's a big part of our. Life, we're talking about
flexible working and stuff and job sharing all that.
So it's kind of linked. They're related.
What do you wanna talk about? Stick around and for after this
boring bit when we can talk about flexible work.
You don't do the notes as if I didn't just tell you so we can
talk about I mean was that they just check the notes over here.
I think we're. Flexible, working flexible.
Working. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But basically want to reflect on it for a minute.
It's a scary, scary time for us to see how you feel because I
feel like, you know, you find these things a little bit more
like it gets you, gets you feeling some type of way when
when we do. This really good.
Description of the word 10 seconds spray bottle.
If you don't get that, listen to episode 60.
Ohh every something in the. 60s or why not just all of the
previous? All of the previous episodes,
yeah. Anyway, so we're at the point
now where we've we've grown a little, we've gone part time
because of our little side business that was just genuinely
a side hustle for many years, which was a bit of tutoring.
And we've slowly grown it. And we've always had the mindset
of totally risk free, really, really slow building.
We'll do everything ourselves, even if it takes 10 times longer
because we don't want to maybe spend loads of money.
We spend risk. It, we spent like £200 when we
started on that resourcing, yeah.
And then we've not put a single penny of our own money into this
business since then. We actually, we have, we
actually have enough. No, we've only, we've, so only
time we've needed something, even if we think it's a good
idea, like getting a new website was a big thing for us, rather
than what a lot of businesses would do, which is they'd,
they'd get that investment, they'd ever take out a loan or
something because they know it's going to pay dividends in the
future. We were like, Nah, we'll always
just save up first. So if it takes us a year longer
to get there, we'll do that. We've always done that.
But recently we wanted to start a bunch of a couple of new
services and we've taken a new leap.
I think it's, I think if we should like talk about it, but
what we aren't we, but it's been 3 minutes so, so basically we
have built a bit of a team of resource creators to help us
jumpstart these new services, which would normally take about
two years to. Create, well, because we just
sit and creating ourselves. So we've created every resource
so far, just ourselves. I think apart from a couple of
things, I've outsourced people. But mostly me and.
You but yeah, now it's. Exciting, kind of scary because
spending loads of money investing on in these people and
the services don't exist yet. But I would, I would say it's
still the business money. And it's because the business
has grown. The business has grown.
It's allowed to invest as much money.
But you know, yeah, anyone else has a business out there?
It is, it is like it is just a leap, isn't it?
Because at the end of the day, that is our money because we've
earned it. Yeah.
And it's our, you know, our profits and our company and
stuff. So either we're going to invest
it or we're going to take the money.
And I think we've had the mindset before of take the
money, live a comfortable lifestyle, reinvest when you can
save. And I think at this point we're
just like, let's just do. I don't I wonder if there's like
a bit of boredom comes into it of, you know, we, you know, our
service, we, we teach here. Of children and can't we do a
little bit of your stuff? We're now completely overhauling
year four to be a complete service.
We're going to introduce year six is going to be the whole
idea of through through primary school.
Yeah, eventually thinking about doing GCSEs and stuff like that
and working in secondary school, but it's just a hint of boredom.
I don't know about you. Like we've gone part time.
We've done that for a couple of years now.
I feel like I'm at the at the cycle point of I need something
else like and even if this doesn't work then OK, well we'll
just carry on as we were then. Like we'll build the money back
up anyway because of where we are.
Yeah, I agree. I think it is important.
I mean, we like that we are a year goes past.
If we don't do something new, we tend to get a bit itchy, itchy,
itchy feet. Itchy Feet is definitely the
saying. And yeah, the only bad, bad news
for our listeners is we haven't got for the podcast yet.
We keep putting a new episode every week.
I'll listen to #1 now what we like.
Ohh, God is annoying, isn't it? So yeah.
Are you happy you had your bit about business?
Yeah, I just want to reflect on it and I was gonna see how you
felt about it, but I suppose it kind of links into the next
chat. Anyway, we're gonna talk about
going part time. Are we?
So we're gonna play the Jingle now.
We're gonna talk about going part time and flexible working
and teaching and stuff. But I do have a nice little
hypothetical question for you to answer after this single.
OK, that sounds good. Hey, then it's time to answer my
hypothetical question. You ready?
That sounds great. That's the Django OK, ready.
Ohh. I need you to take you
seriously. I thought this online.
You crack me up and I really had to think about it.
OK, I'm ready. Because this, by the way, you
have to take this seriously because this is an incredibly
serious question. OK?
You're listening at home. I want to know what you think.
Let us know. Question.
Would you rather stay exactly as you are or I thought you got
now? Yeah, exactly as you are.
Or, umm, take six attempts at bowling a strike for £100
million and if you don't bowl a strike you turn into a dog.
Oh my God, what? Sorry, would you rather say
exactly as you are or take six attempts at bowling, strike and
if you don't bother strike you turn into a dog?
That is unbelievably complex for some reason.
Up until you said the. Word dog.
I was absolutely adamant that I was going to take that one.
That race. I was like, there's nothing he
could do. You take away my whole life
savings, whatever. I take the risk for 100 million,
turn into a dog. I'm not so sure.
I'm not talking like I'm talking about when, when when we say
dog, you can't talk. You're not talking dog.
You are just a dog. You are you though.
Yeah, you are. You and people around you would
be like, ohh, missed that Hayden at least at least he's ohh.
Look at him. I bet he's a he's sad.
Secondly, could I miss on purpose?
We're gonna be talking. I don't really wanna.
Do I have to take the 100 mill? I think they're.
Serious Ebola striker in your gut.
It's six. You've got to strike it.
God's sake. God's sake.
Give me 100 Mel. Oh my God, I don't if if this
was dead serious. You mean it because because
it's. Hey, I'm asking you right now.
I've got it set up. I've got the bar now set up in
the other room. I've got the dog's body.
Imagine what the dog's body out there ready for your soul to.
Is it currently alive? Yeah, he's going to swap.
Will become the David David. Do you see more stock?
I think, but how much was it? 100 million hundred hundred mil.
100 mil, one strike out. I'm pretty.
Bloody good at bowling, I'll tell you that.
Have your bowling with the pause of a dog.
I'm joking there. I think I would do it.
No, wait. No.
No barriers. No barriers.
No, no. Barriers want to look at me.
I look like someone needs barriers.
But on your turn into a dog and you're OK with that?
I won't turn into dog, I'll get this.
Right, you really have picked like the wrong sport here.
Are you a secret bowling? Fanatic any sport baby backs.
Throwing. Just don't do something with my
feet. Just do anything we have to
bend, please, because I won't be going back up.
Ohh, I don't know. I think I would.
I think I'd do it. No way.
So you've got a child and you go sorry darling, I'm gonna try and
strike 100 mill if. Not bark.
Bark, no. If not, If not, you're doing the
challenge as well. You'll be a dog with me.
No, no, no, it's just you. But if not, you do get a nice
family pet. Would you not take it?
No, absolutely not. No, you're making me doubt
myself. I'm doing that.
I'm doing it, baby. Live life on the edge.
Of the life of a dog is alright in it.
Yeah, Short, short. Though which dog you are.
That's, that's part of the question, I suppose, is what
kind of dog would you be and not a street dog.
As in, like what breed you choose?
To breed at least, OK, you'd be a golden retriever in a loving
family. But you, you can't talk.
You can't talk, though. And and there's one person in
the family who does Tuggy cholera bit too much when I was
looking. OK.
Like a bit like that's why can I bite them?
No, no, no. Yeah, I'm doing it, I'm doing
it. I'll get a strike and I'll take
the 100 mil walk away by ten 10,000 golden retrievers.
And implant myself into all of them like a horcrux.
All of them. I mean, someone tries to,
someone tries to destroy me, they have to destroy themselves
at the same time. That's how it works.
Followed Waldemar through. Yeah, OK, Baltimore as the kids
call me. Thanks to you.
Yeah. Anyway, yeah, that's been a
while since you mentioned that. Yeah.
But it wasn't mentioned it. I hear it every day though, so
thanks for that. Right, guys, let us know what
your answer that hypothetical is.
And here's a quick another Jingle.
No, no, no, no, no. I'm not finished the question.
I've got one more typical. Back to you.
OK. How many bowls?
2 how many, how many bowling attempts would you have to be
given until you take this deal? Like would you do it for if you
had 10 attempts, would you would you take it?
When is it no longer? A risk to you?
OK, let's work backwards. If I had 100 attempts, I'd do
it. Yeah, OK, There's no way you're
getting. Straight on 100 hundred if I
went bowling if I-10 games of bowling, I'd get straight yeah
Now I I actually think in a single game of bowling I'd get
straight yeah but would I risk it becoming.
A dog no. So that's like 20/20/20 ish
isn't it? Because you know, we do 2 per
two guys for a strike. Hayden strikes first goal or
nothing. Yeah, you're gonna get 10
attempts to strike, but if you haven't been getting a strike,
you've got up to like 20 goes until you've got until you run
out of goes to get a striker, no.
You can't if you have a. If you bowl and don't get a
strike, your next one can't be a strike.
You only get 10 attempts at strike.
Ohh yeah, you idiot. Ohh.
In that case I won't be taking it.
What if the first one hits nothing?
Does it count as night despair? I'm so good at bowling, by the
way. How are the rules working?
Please? Why?
It's not technically, it's right.
We are gonna pay the go now. We're gonna get into.
The actual hang on before the jungle.
Let's play the Jingle. A couple of years ago we went
part time, and part time in a school is one of two things
usually. So obviously part time means
less time in school. Either part time or full.
Time. Yeah, well, part time Hayden
means one of two things, either as a teacher, maybe in in
secondary school is different obviously because it's different
periods you have already scattered timetable.
But in primary school it tends to be either you are a maths and
English set teacher and you go in every morning five days a
week and you do English and maths every day.
Or you share an entire class with another person and one of
you does three or four phase one of you does one or two days or
something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We took the job share option of we do three days a week.
The good one. The yeah, the lovely one and our
job share partners do two days a week and between us we're just
treated as one person in the school.
Yeah. Now this whole episode is going
to be talking about flexible working, flexible working and
also job shares because that's where we have kind of our
speciality, I suppose. So before we go into the Inns
and outs of how flexible working can actually work in a school
and the limitations are much different to other jobs and the
impact it might have on recruitment and retention and
things like that, I wanted just to reflect on our actual real
life experience of flexible working.
So we put in, we put in a flexible working request.
We ended up getting our three days a week.
What did it do to you, Hayden? That affected your enjoyment of
the job and your ability to, I guess, stay in the job.
What would have happened if you were denied this request?
I would have quit for a. Start.
Would you have, I'll be honest with that.
Absolutely. I probably would have probably
have that one more year again because we're quite risk free.
Normally. I would have been a bit like I
would have put myself out of it. We were ready to quit though.
Yeah, we did. Kind of actually we did.
We did say to ourselves, didn't we, if this was going to be
denied, we were quick because we were burning out.
And, and that's what it did to me, I suppose.
It stopped me burning out. And I don't want to pretend like
I was burning out just because of the job.
It's because we were trying to run a business on top of a full
time teaching job, which we all know is kind.
Of which already people burnout. From exactly and we're lucky at
our school where is a good school and actually at other
schools. I probably would have been long
burned out by that point. Our school's pretty good anyway,
but we were still burning out. So going part time for me, I
guess saved my career a little bit in terms of it kept me as a
teacher for however long. You know, I don't think I'll
always be teaching. I do think there's gonna be a
point where we take the business full time probably in the
future, but it certainly kept us in a bit longer because it
allowed us to take that middle step of pure safety for us where
it was like, well, we know we're going to make we're going to
make up the money from the business that we run, but we
probably don't earn enough in the business yet to go fully
like the full risk mode of quitting.
So it was a nice safety net. I don't would would you have
because obviously we thought the three days a week option was
superior because we needed those days at home.
Would you have taken the five days a week doing mornings only
but finishing at lunchtime option if that was the only
other option? Or would you have quit?
If it was the only option I would have taken it.
However, I did not quit. Yeah, I think so.
I think so. I do think however, that doing
full days is superior to doing every morning.
I think we talked about this a long time on the podcast, but I
do think but mornings works for some people, for example,
parents of slightly older children who maybe are in
nursery all morning. It's perfect.
It's perfect, isn't it all? Or childcare is easier for them
to sort. Out you can be done before the
end of the school day basically. You can see them and just do
half day, whatever it takes in terms of that respect.
It does work for some people and also it does kind of mitigate a
lot of the stigma around job share, which is that you're
teaching maths Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and that progression
clearly carries on for the children.
But you change teacher and that that can be a problem and and
that mitigates that completely because it's set teacher.
You just teach them all the. Time And I suppose there's, you
know, another huge perk of being a set teacher is that if you
don't, if you're not tied down to a class, any teacher
listening right now, I know there's a lot of responsibility
and extra work that comes with having your own class.
Right. Yeah.
And on top of just planning for the afternoon.
Yeah. Yeah.
So it's not just it's not just planning and teaching the
afternoon, is it? There is a lot of other stuff
you know. Parents evening for a start.
Healthcare plans, you've got to. Write yeah, you know, all of
those those jobs are kind of let teachers do their parenting.
That's true. They do, they do, but they might
not do it. Some schools they might not
have, you know it's not going to be their.
Class, but like it tends to be an afternoon enrichment,
afternoon trips, things like that.
There's this pros and cons because I've got I've no set,
which is in our school, we have set teachers to every morning.
Yeah. We also have job share people
who dates so that there are pros and cons to both and I do get
that and I don't, I wouldn't be reticent to say that, you know,
set, set teachers do less. I don't think that's true
necessarily. No, sure.
Because I think the planning Mass in English is much more of
a job than planning the afternoon.
So they're they're planning more.
Yeah, I was trying to highlight really got a question for you
then. So thinking about just very much
about you, you've been part time for two.
Years 2 1/2 years. 2 1/2. I.
Ohh, no, no, no. You started halfway through.
You started in the September. So you've done I've.
Been. Has it been?
Has it been to and? This is my third year, yeah.
Crikey, yeah. So you've done 2 1/2 years,
taught me through how you felt at the start and how you feel
now about it that might know that's gonna be different or not
and kind of what happened if it is different about like the day
one of going part time, how did you feel?
Unbelievable. Yeah.
And it was, it was crazy because again, do you know, we we always
talk about how if you get out the classroom every year that
goes by, you kind of become more removed from what it's like
being in the classroom. Yeah, I absolutely think that
this is happening to me with being a full time teacher.
So I talk about burnout. I talk about things like that.
I am every year that goes past, I'm another year away from
actually experiencing what it's like to work all week in a
school because it is insane in terms of in terms of mental
load. So for me going to do a job,
share, it honestly transformed my looking back, my mental
health because it happened after COVID and there was a lot of
stuff going on in COVID. I think that I kind of just
suppressed the little bit like the whole idea, like the world
felt like it was falling apart, was affecting everyone,
obviously. And we talk about how, ohh, we
got some time at home, wasn't that nice, and we had our own
house and we had a garden. So I know we were very lucky in
terms of some people stuck in a flat and it was incredibly
tricky mental health wise. Yeah.
So we had them benefits, but I definitely suppressed a lot of
it. And a lot of my stuff came out
in health anxiety around that time.
I was really worried, I'm really worried about my health.
Like the doctors. Yeah.
It was like going to the doctors and getting stuff checked.
It wasn't even to do with COVID. It was like other stuff.
And I'm like, ohh, I've, I've got to have a lump in here and
can you check that? And then I'd get the doctor to
check it like 6 times even though I already checked, it's
already been scanned. It's like it's fine.
And we're years later now. And I definitely think that was
linked to COVID and I definitely think it was actually linked to,
you know, incredible stressing the job as well.
And when we, when I went part time job share, it genuinely
transformed my outlook and my day-to-day stuff.
It didn't just change my work, it changed how I was at the
weekend because I had more time. It impacted everything to do in
my life. I was just happier.
Yeah, straight away. And I would say that, you know,
kind of LinkedIn with that is the fact you didn't go part time
as quickly as I did. Yeah.
So obviously we were both hoping to go part time.
We could both spend time in the business.
So we kind of stalled going full send on the business until we
were both off. I was two times behind Dylan,
for context. He went in September and I went
in January. Yeah, he had two terms without
me. Yeah.
It was just because of like situations of job sharing and
stuff like that the people are doing.
Was always ready to go in September.
So those, those from September to December, I think that was
2021. Hmm.
That was probably my favourite 3 months ever of, of like Jane of
like life. Because you know, anyone who
knows I'd won millionaire, I'd one who wants to be millionaire.
So I had, I had that financial stability which was huge and a
massive thing that we're kind of not even brought up yet is that,
you know, flexible working doesn't mean you are less had
that financial stability. I want to play golf on my
Thursdays, knowing I was playing golf when I would have been
really stressed, trying to make sure, you know, everything's
done and I'll have a break time and I can just get my lunch prep
because I've got to go and do one afternoon.
I said I just went and played golf.
Yeah, with my mate who was off and I just chilled out.
And that reset helped me massively every time we needed
it. Yeah, because we'd spent, we'd
spent the three years before that not just working part time.
Sorry, not just working full. Time.
So I'm not exaggerating, I'm exaggerate a lot, so I'm trying
not to exaggerate here. I'd say we spent the three years
before that working seven days a week for like for at least 90%
of the weeks a. Year.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Genuinely like because we did
our full time job obviously and then we run the business on the
weekends and evenings. We treat half terms like
finally, time for business. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was crazy. And we were just burning out
because we know it's just mad. I agree.
By the way, the same sort of experience at the start, it was
just like pure euphoria where I was like, I can't believe I'm
not at school. It felt naughty.
Didn't. Yeah, we felt like we couldn't
go out. People might see us, like my
question went to school. Yeah.
But you know, we, we started things like Wednesday night
beer, you know, Wednesday. After school.
Became our Friday yeah, so we have that went.
Didn't It didn't last long. But being but how do you?
Do you feel the same now or has it changed?
Yeah, it's changed massively. It's, it becomes the new normal,
doesn't it? And this, this is the worry
about it. I, I still think it's, I, I'm a
much better level than I ever was, right.
So we peaked at like the four over and we did it.
It's never gone back to what it was beforehand, I think.
And if you're at home thinking, God, I am so burnt out.
And if you look at just do the maths and see what your impact
on actually have on your salary, because dropping dropping two
days is 40% of the time you're in school.
It doesn't translate to a 40% drop in what you earn just
because of the. Tax was around 25%.
Yeah, take home pay. Yeah, so just just, I know money
is really tight at the minute, but just look at what you'd
actually lose and see if there's ways that you can kind of make
that money up. A lot of people could make that
money up or at least a chunk of it through just doing a couple
of hours of private tutoring, find one or two clients like
you, you could make up a nice chunk of that money.
So that's what I'd say to anyone listening now going, well, of
course these guys could do it. Then the business, I think it's,
I think it's very viable for a lot of people and the mental
health impact is insane and it raise up your mind if you're
thinking now I can't tutor because I'm working full time
and I'm getting so stressed out. That would transform with those
days off. And you can use those days off
at your leisure just to spend some hours, you know, finding
it. So yeah, I mean, it's different
now because I look at the three days and, and I honestly think I
could, I could, I'd be happy with two days now.
Yeah. Because yeah, the business is
growing. We've got other stuff you want
in the business, but also just like, you know, I, I'd look at
it and, and again the drop every time you drop because you've got
a tax free allowance of about 12 1/2 grand.
So you can earn that much before you're taxed.
So every day you drop off, you're losing taxed income.
That's why it's not and not the untaxed income.
So again, if you dropped one more day, that's a 1/3.
Drop in how much you're in school, you'll pay.
Would not go down by a third. You pay might go down by 20%
again, about 1/4 again I think. I think 3rd to 1/4 is actually a
really good ratio in terms of dropping down and compared to
your actual take home pay drop is about 1/4, not 1/3.
So something to consider, but what I would say is it really,
really worked for me and I'll come back to you in a second.
I and I know it worked for you though.
And I would say that if flexible working wasn't something that we
could do as teachers, we'd be another one of the statistics.
And at the end of the day, recruitment and retention is an
insane problem. This kept us in the profession
that we literally love. So, you know, we moan a lot
about it because we love it and we want to teach forever.
And I want it to be a really enticing profession.
And there's only one reason I'm still doing it.
And by the way, the thing that's only thing that's drawn me out
of the teaching world as a teacher is our education
business. We are passionate about
education. So I, I don't know if it's
something that can actually help fix this retention problem
without doing too much extra funding, which just isn't going
to happen, then I think it's necessary and it's a good thing.
What about you? What you thought?
I don't have too much more to add really because I think we
had a similar experience. I just want to really make it
clear that once that honeymoon period was over of us going part
time, I did very much return to a similar state as before, like
you said, a new normal. The difference being I wasn't as
physically and mentally drained anymore.
That's that's the difference. But in terms of my happiness,
and people often don't want to talk about happiness or they
feel they have to pretend I'm, oh, I'm happier now because of
this things like I am no happier than I was when we were full
time running a business. Genuinely, I'm no happier, but
I'm not as worn out. I think that's probably the way
to put it. So I'm still glad I did it.
But you know, the high did come back down and I'm a new state of
that. We've watched those.
Happiness is relative, isn't it is relative, completely
relative. You could not work at all and be
exactly as happy as you are right now or you could, you
know, there are other factors. So I think it's important to
keep in mind, we have this next conversation about flexible
working and how it's not an automatic fix is that's kind of
what we're saying. But in terms of stress, in terms
of burnout, in terms of exhaustion, that can link to
happiness, Obviously we're not as stressed and not as burnt
out. You're not going to be
absolutely, absolutely right. So less of the negative, less of
the negative emotions. Put it that way.
My baseline is still about the same, but I don't feel as
stressed and negative as I as regularly as I was feeling.
Because there's something insane looking.
I I look back at my, there was always the same point in the
year when I was working full time when I would say to you, I
don't wanna do this anymore. Yeah, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna. I'm gonna quit and it was
basically the end of every big time.
Yeah. So getting towards the end
towards Christmas, I'm like, I can't do it.
I'm so tired end of Easter and in the summer I can't do this
anymore. But I have genuinely not had
that feeling of I am exhausted at the end of the term.
Oh my God. Like complete exhaustion.
Yeah, obviously end of the time he gets tired.
We still work, you know, we still work and still have a
break in the half time now, but I I haven't it's not been.
The same being part time has highlighted how how stressful
the job of teaching is. Yeah, and some people listen to
this and I know my mates probably ohh teaching you're
really hard job as if there's not other hard jobs.
I get it. I'm never commenting on other
jobs not being hard or hard. I'm just saying teaching is.
Really. Well, the Instagram comments
section I think you will, honest to God.
Yeah, but having our two days at home where we work just as many
hours as we were doing a teaching day because because we
still need to put in the time. I don't feel 10% as knackered
after on a Thursday or Friday at the end of the day as I do on a
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. When I'm at school, if that
isn't to me proof that teaching's insane.
Like, I actually don't care, other people say.
Anymore it's so. Exhausting is insane, So
exhausting. And I'm actually at the point
now where if someone honestly just what had just has a
run-of-the-mill office job. I'm not degrading your job
whatsoever or saying it's not important or what you're doing
is is pointless. Yeah.
What I am saying though is it is not remotely as tiring as
teaching 32 children all day with the admin that goes around
it. Yeah, it just isn't.
I'm sorry it's more stressful. Yeah, I agree.
But if you're going to compare it to like a Labour job or some
sort, I don't know. Probably different kind of
exhaustion. Different kind of education I
find. Actually the mental exhaustion
more than the physical exhaustion.
A bit of physical exertion. But what I'm saying with with
labouring, that would be a physical exhaustion, physical
which is different to teaching, which is just an all out mental
exhaustion. Yeah.
Like it's insane.
Yeah. It's weird, isn't it?
We're bum tricky job. Yeah.
So in terms of flexible working in general, we literally live
flexible working and we're huge advocates for it.
And I suppose what I want to talk about is the fact it's in
the news at the minute as well. That's why I wanted to have this
podcast. Before they working week well.
Yeah, you talked about that. You said the Green Party
manifesto has come out, the Green Party, Let's be clear,
we're not gonna get into power. But what, what these kind of
fringe parties can do is just put stuff in the discourse.
I suppose that's, that's yeah, 100%.
And the idea of, you know, four day working weeks been around
for a long time. There's been trials and stuff.
And we've always, yeah. But we've always talked about
how education does just feel different.
It does just feel different. So firstly, let's think about
what's been in the news of education.
Like what could we actually do? What, what might flexible
working look like? And we talked about going part
time. That's the most obvious version
of flexible working. But I've seen some other bits
and I'm gonna, I'm gonna send them to you and you're gonna
tell me what you think. Yeah, I've seen, I've seen a
school in the UK who said every single Friday school finishes at
half 12. I was going to mention this.
As well. Yeah.
So, you know, the school finished half 12, go home,
whatever, crack on. Yeah, that's a good idea.
Or not. I, I like the idea.
I read that article and I read into a bit more detail.
There's some quotes from some teachers that were like, oh,
it's great because now you know, I get the odd long weekend away
now because I'll go out, I'll go away on the Friday, literally
like lunchtime and go away Friday, Saturday, Sunday and
come back. And it's really, really nice for
that. And I was like, that's, that's a
cool idea. But then I read in the same
article that and I don't know why I'm surprised.
Obviously this is happening, but they all they've done is
condense all of those hours into the week.
Yeah, it's the same amount of working hours.
It's just that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday with a
longer days. That's what the four week is, by
the way, four day week is because I don't know a lot.
I'm very. Naive.
A lot. A lot of it.
Some of it's not. Some of it's the same of time,
but some of it Is 10 hour days for four days OK instead of
eight hour days for five. Days, so I want that.
That made me, I don't know if this is right, rightful emotions
or not, but I was a bit like, oh, it's just a gimmick.
Then it's the same amount of work.
I'm going to be just as tired. I'm just condensing it into
different days and then I thought or would I and actually
I don't know. So this is where I want to hear
what your opinion. Is no, I I've thought really
interesting. I read about it too and I saw
they made the days longer because I thought initially when
I saw this, I thought, yeah, they've just made Friday PA Hmm.
And like, you know, but no, they school literally.
Closes then. I basically worked in a school
that did this didn't. I Yeah.
I worked. I worked in a school once he was
as a free. School.
So when you said you don't know how you feel?
Yeah, it wasn't exactly like this.
It was a bit different, but. You mentioned this before
because you had basically finished.
You started early every day and finished earlier every.
Day finished later. Sorry.
The school finished there, but
you didn't? Yeah.
So the kids came in at 8:15. Yeah.
And they finished at four. Yeah, but you didn't.
But I didn't on every day. So they did that Monday to
Thursday. So from the kids perspective, it
was 8:15 till 4:00 Monday to Thursday, and on a Friday it was
8:15 until 3:15. That was a bit more of a normal
day. So it's not even shorter the
last. Day No.
For the kids. For the kids it wasn't, but for
the teachers we had to do to to do the Friday was normal.
We just everyone had to do Friday is normal.
But for the four days that were a bit weird, that went to a
4/4/15, 4:00, whatever it was we had to do 8:15 until 2:00 on two
of the days, Yeah, 8:15 until 4:00 on two other.
Days right so this you're just told my PA.
Ohh yeah, it was. Yeah, so so.
I think it's a finish earlier. No.
So this, this, this whole thing, the thing I was gonna say here
is I thought it was just P on a Friday, but it's not, right.
This is the whole school where it's condensed.
Ohh yeah. Into 4 1/2 days and then PPA
still within that. So it would still feel good.
What I was going to say about this example here of flexible
working, leaving early on a Friday is great.
And it might work for a lot of people.
It might be, it might be, it might be sound.
It might be a great idea, but it only works if the outer workload
is also reduced. If the workload we have to do
outside of the job is still just as much as in lots of schools
where it's a problem. Yeah, then all you're doing is
just stretching out the day even more because the day is already
longer. As a teacher, Yeah.
Name one teacher who actually finishes at 3:15 when the school
finished. Of course they don't.
They finish at 5:15. So if you're making the day
finish at 4:15, all you're actually doing to a teacher is
making that day finish at 6:15 on those.
So that's even more stressful. So if you're going to have these
longer days as a teacher, that might work in an office when you
go in early, leave early, but that's it.
Yeah. As a teacher, that doesn't
necessarily work if you have these longer days because you'll
have to spend an hour prepping in the early in the morning and
you're gonna have to stay late to do your marking and stuff.
So I don't necessarily think this is the win.
But I'd be interested to hear from people that have.
I don't have anyone listening has actually experienced that
exact situation. I know it's only like a couple
of schools have done it, but I don't know my, my gut feeling is
my gut feeling is it would be the exact same experience that
we've had in the past, which is would it would be a cool gimmick
at 1st and there'd be a bit of like whoa.
And then it returned and you'd feel exactly the same.
Yeah, I think, I think it's different to what we do because
we literally dropped 2 days of. Work No, I know, but I mean I
just meant that that it might feel good.
I reckon a lot of people is so much better, but give it a year.
I my gut feeling is you're probably because you are doing
the same amount of work in the week you're probably gonna.
You're gonna feel worse on the days when you do a longer.
Right. Yeah, it's gonna be absolutely.
But at the end of the day, you can't argue with, you know, at
least something along the weekend that's kind of cool.
Another thing. So was it?
This would require more funding I suppose, but a lot of schools
give extra PPL already and it was to make PPE for anyone who
doesn't work in a school is planning, preparation and
assessment time. As a teacher, you get 10% of
your teaching time in a week is given to you as time out of the
classroom to prep stuff. We've done jokes before about
how that doesn't remotely cover the time to prep, but so that
what that translates to is half a day every week that teachers
get out of the classroom. And something that I've seen
battered around lately just to try and incentivise the job
again a bit more because, you know, hybrid working isn't
something that's possible in schools and we'll talk about
that, but is to have a whole day of PA, just the whole day of PA
where, you know, you're you, your children are still in
school. So from a children's point of
view, it's that a full week of school, but their teacher is not
in on Thursday, let's say, or Monday or whatever it is.
And that day, perhaps they have sports coaches in the morning
and they have, you know, specialist musician music
teachers or Spanish teachers or drama, whatever it is in the
afternoon or even just normal curriculum covered by a higher
level teaching assistant, whatever.
And that really interests me a lot more than the first one
because the first one, just like, you know, moving jigsaw
pieces around. Yeah, this one is actually
putting some jigsaw pieces in the bin and not having to do it
anymore. I agree.
So this this one to me really, really piques my interest.
I don't know what you think about having a whole day PPA.
And the big thing for me was the freedom to not have to come in
on that day and, you know, do whatever you want.
To well, let's put the two elements of that then.
So first of all, I think a whole day PPA, even if you're in
school, would have an enormous impact on workload production.
I think it's a great idea. I think it's mental that we've
got to 2024 and we still the, the, the powers that be still
think 10% of time out of teaching is enough to remotely
get anything done. But doesn't just impact teachers
free time on the weekends and evenings.
Whole day. Great idea.
We should absolutely be pushing for that and fighting for that.
Even better if you have that flexibility to go home on PA.
So let's just about in general, what do you think about that in
general, even schools that just have normal PA, do you think it
should be widely accepted and normal to be able to just go
home during PPA and do what you want in that time?
Or do you think it should be something that's like, oh, you
do what you want, but you gotta stay in school?
Cause yeah, I was gonna ask you about this because it's
something I've heard a lot of, especially after since COVID,
because in COVID time you wanted to spend as little time as
possible in buildings where people.
So it was policy for a lot of schools.
Where go get out of you. Literally have to go home.
It's not even not even doing you a favour.
It's just don't spend a little time this building as possible.
Go home because you're not teaching.
I was going to ask you because my gut instinct is it's a it's a
really good idea to give the professional, which is, again, I
think it's something we forget a lot of teaching.
We are professionals. We are a profession.
We've been highly trained to do this job.
Yeah. And we are entrusted to, to plan
and assess stuff mostly in our own time anyway.
So with that level of trust should come the level of trust
to do that as and when we wish. Yeah.
But what I was going to ask you is so obviously, yes to me is
the answer. You should be able to take
whatever you want. Yeah.
What do you think though, about schools where, let's be honest,
right now, there are some teachers who maybe are falling
behind in their work, aren't aren't doing their planning.
And you know, we can talk about whether they should be planning
at home or not. But the teachers who just need a
bit more support aren't necessarily following the school
ethos, let's say of planning all the school guidelines of how to
do things correctly. Where do you stand on a school
then using that almost as like a not, I guess a punishment, but a
genuine way though to say, well, we want to give you some
support. OK, So not, not talking toxicity
right now, which we all know exist, I'm talking about schools
like I want to give you some support.
You've got some PDA time. I wanna come and support you in
this planning. Wanna come and help you as your,
as your SLT. Yeah, I wanna make you better.
And actually you are underperforming.
So it's part of my job to make sure it's making sure you're
performing. What do you say to would you
then have to say to all your staff, OK, no one can go home
anymore? Or would you have a two tier
system? Where?
OK yeah you're fine to go home but you need to stay here cause
I'm helping. You out?
Yeah, No, I I am completely against that.
I think the fundamental issue there is is the idea that SLT
get involved with your PBA, that that's it.
To me I'm like Nope, PA are protected.
Should be a protected time. I think a good manager needs to,
if, if there's a problem that's out of the ordinary, then they
need to do out of the ordinary things to solve it.
They need to take them out of class in different times to do
other things, to do various training, to do meetings,
whatever. I don't think it should then be.
And it is basically a punishment.
It's everyone else gets this freedom of PA, but you don't
because you're not doing your job good enough.
So I'm going to take away the bit of freedom you have and
we're going to use that time to solve it.
I think it should be no, you're entitled to that just like
everybody else. It doesn't that PA isn't
dependent on how good you're doing your job.
I don't think it ever should be having, you know, it should be.
There should be other processes involved.
That's what good managers to do. So I've heard of schools doing
that and I do think it's toxic. Think even if they try to say
it's not toxic, I've heard of schools that have that allow
their teachers to do P at home, but haven't allowed some
teachers to do P at home or some or something along those lines.
I've had loads of schools that do that just doesn't sit right
as it doesn't sit right. All I'm like, no, you're just
firstly, you're it's embarrassing.
Two tier system. Yeah, two tiers is embarrassing.
It's like a weird, you've now made PPA and meritocracy of like
some weird. So it's as if they're not
entitled to it already, you know.
Well, they both get the. PA is what they might say.
Yeah, but you don't if you're staying in school because I need
you here to do. Something but they're planning
like it would have been just gonna have.
Support. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just think you did that. And I thought he's gonna freak
out soon. As I told you no.
So in answer, absolutely not. It should never be, never be
done like that. I think everyone should be
entitled to PPA. And I also think everybody
should be entitled to have P at home or do it wherever they
wish. And I don't think that should
ever be questioned genuinely. I think there's a single teacher
that shouldn't have that privilege because like you said,
on average we do 20 hours teachers on average, and this is
a stat, it was 20 hours, 18. Hours.
It was between 10 and 20. OK, I think it was around 20
hours of overtime, free overtime, extra overtime a week
on average for teachers. And if they are doing that to
get their job done, who, what manager on this planet is going
to be like, ohh, if they take their pet home, they might not
do their bloody work. They want to do work.
They might only choose to do the 20 hours they were going to do
anyway and not be we're going to do in that time.
But of course they're not. Of course not.
Do you know what? Even if they did go home and put
their feet up, they're still going to do the work.
They'll do it at the weekend when they do their other 5
million jobs. It's not going to not get done.
And if it's not getting done, then step in and sort it out.
Yeah, You're a manager. Do your job at that point.
Yeah, Basically, yeah. I find it hilarious because I
guess that moves really nicely into what I want to talk about
in terms of hybrid working. So you know what the government
have done in the last few years. And again, we cannot turn our
nose up at this because it's obviously a good thing, right,
that they have raised the starting salary to 50,000 lbs.
Yeah, they have decimated pay for a long time because that's,
that's the that's the context. But yeah, you know, at least
they did bump up the starting salary a decent amount to at
least try and catch up somehow. They did something cool.
The bad news is it did nothing. So there were recruitment
numbers haven't improved. So it was something like 500
extra teachers when you take into account the people who left
teaching and the people who trained to become a teacher.
We've got 500 more teachers like this year, which is insanely
low. We need way more.
OK. I remember the 8.8% teachers
left last year. Yeah.
And that's not including retirement.
Yeah. So when you include the people
who trained, we missed the training target.
And because we missed the training target, the net figure
was like 500 more teachers. We need way more teachers.
So that was completely wrong. And a big reason that's being
touted as to why this is happening is because teaching is
kind of trapped in almost like the Victorian era, I suppose,
but it's very much trapped pre COVID.
And I'm not necessarily sure it's teachings fault because I
think teaching has some limitations as to whether hybrid
working can even be introduced in the 1st place.
So for a lot of professions now, if you're a young professional,
the idea of being having some kind of hybrid working model
where you might go into the office one or two times a week
where necessary, but you can crack on with your work at home,
that's really appealing. And way more common.
Way more common now and and with teaching you have just got to
turn up and teach you lessons every day.
You know, there are children who come in because like it or not,
a chunk of our job is childcare. So people can go to work and
society can function. So, you know, it's not even a
bad thing. Of course we need the children
in school. And but the other part is that,
you know, teaching is for face to face purposes.
That's how we do it. We go in and we help children.
We can do boosters and stuff online.
We can help children online, but the hybrid model doesn't really
work with teaching. So I guess my point here is how
can we have flexible working? How can we approach this?
But even when hybrid working is something that can't happen.
And the biggest kind of elephant in the room right now is we
already do hybrid working as teachers.
Like, you know, it wouldn't work in terms of the full time job.
We actually have everyone like you can't do hybrid teaching.
You gotta be in school for your job.
So oh, yeah, that's that's weird because I do 20 hours of work a
week at home. Yeah.
So, you know, I could do work at home as a hybrid teacher.
So teaching is already hybrid when you do a full time job
because you're doing lots of work in your own time and
evenings and weekend. How can we make this hybrid job
an actual hybrid job? Or is it impossible?
What you think? I don't know.
I don't know if there's probably some wacky way that you could do
it I haven't thought of, but maybe just recognition of it.
What do you mean for a start? Like the fact that you're saying
it already is hybrid? But perhaps every Wednesday.
And teachers, thank you for doing the work.
Maybe recognition that by putting it into the job spec,
maybe that, yeah, you do do work at home in this time.
It's hybrid working. You do these things at home, but
you get paid for. It, yeah, but that's that's
funding. So that's not gonna happen.
Yeah. So no.
So how do we do it? I don't know if we can.
Have you got any ideas? No, not really.
I think it's impossible. I think we need to be in the
room for childcare. Society needs to function.
People are like ohh, teachers. We're not.
We're not child carers. Well, we are.
There you are. We are though, aren't we part of
our job? No idea.
We were when we're at Centre Parks.
We went to a restaurant and do you remember how we were served
our food in the Mexican place? Little Robot came over genuinely
just just by itself, came over all of our food on it, and then
someone else came and gave us a plate.
So a bit gimmicky, but. Came over looking forward how
this is. Gonna happen.
I'm thinking invest in robots, OK, with the funding we don't
have, I will record from. I'll just sit at home, OK, And
on the screen, prerecorded lessons, robot goes around, does
my job. I think that's the most insane
thing you've ever said. People are still listening.
Work. Thank you.
Wouldn't work. Yeah.
I guess the point I wanted to highlight with that kind of
hypothetical there is that we already have a hybrid job.
It's just that it's one and. 1/2 you look online though everyone
will be teaching your kids in no time.
It'll be robots before we know it.
Well, I I. Think I don't think it.
Will give it 5 to 10 years. Our kids are gonna have a
transformational experience. Yeah, I absolutely change the
world changes. Well, but yeah, you know, in
terms of flexible working going back to it, I don't think
hybrids reasonable. I don't think I don't I don't
think that it could possibly work in schools unless for I
don't know how this would work, but parents might have hybrid
jobs and therefore be able to have their children at home
certain days and they can do work.
But I don't think it will work. I think the way forward flexible
teacher for flexible working the teachers is to like we said
longer PPA, yeah and then you can be flexed with that job, but
the kids are still in school doing stuff and even that
timetable change at the very least is something that.
Could happen. Well, OK, all right then in the
real world then here's how flexible work, here's how I'm
calling it flexible work. I don't know it is really is
doing what we've done doing, doing job shares, making job
shares always, well, not always some people don't want it, but
making it more common that you can have job shares where you go
in a certain amount of days and someone else because they are,
there's a massive stigma. But that's not flexible working.
With them it's not flexible working, it's just.
Reducing because you get less. Power.
Now I know, I know yeah, but you know what at least in that
scenario if for example, when we when we wanted to go part time
when we were offered doing the mornings or five days a week and
doing the three days a week instead to me I'm like well the
three days it feels more flexible to do the three days a
week then I get 2 days back rather than doing 5 days at work
still. So at least in that scenario
there was a bit of a choice there and I know that doing job
share in days is quite frowned upon A lot of schools won't do
it. They actually have a blanket or
like we don't have to take. Jobs yeah we're really
interested to know how many people listening their schools
have a blanket no because I think even our school at some
point that there was like don't like them they.
Didn't want to have. Them don't like them, you don't
like them at all. There is a stigma there with
flexible work and that needs to change.
That has to change in teaching education.
You, I'm not even going to pretend that there aren't pros
and cons. And and when you say there are
cons to a job share as a leader, you'd be like, OK, well, don't
do them. But I think the pros mean we
have to make it work. We have to grow up.
We have to have a grown up conversation about it.
If you just have a blanket, no. When your staff come to you and
say, what about flexible working a blanket, no, cool.
You're starting to burn out. You gotta lose them.
Is that what you want? I was about to say.
Is that what you want? Is it probably sounds very like
up yourself doesn't. It no it sounds.
Like at the end of the day they would have lost two members of
staff. They have lost me and you at
that point. So the pro was kept.
Members of staff that worked here for years know the school
and a bloody good. We didn't do a podcast at that
point. They regret.
Yeah, I don't know. I think, yeah, flexible working,
I can't, I can't think of a way comparably with other jobs that
actually have flexible working where you get to work.
I think it has to be built into things that already exist.
I don't think children can be spending less time in school.
Yeah, and that's, and that's my, I think that's where a lot of
people draw a line. And it's personally where I also
draw the line. If if flexible working means
that kids are learning from home one day a week and it's forced,
I think that's bad. I think there should be
provision where children going because we're seeing now, for
example, Labour in their manifesto have said about how
they're going to have breakfast club places that free.
Yeah. So if anything, we're expanding
provision for children in school and that's going to get
hopefully working people back at work and childcare and things
like that. So I understand all of that.
I think it has to be built in where more bodies perhaps are in
school, but for less time each and.
And the big one for me is PPA all day because that doesn't
affect the money you're getting, right.
It would be short, would cost some money obviously to get
cover for those mornings and stuff.
But when we're talking about a comparative to, you know, any
other option where children aren't in school or or, you
know, ploughing us with money, I think this is a cheaper option.
Idea about this and it is very, very similar.
I'm not going to claim as I've got some crazy new idea, but you
know, job share, no, no, but and this does come with a bit of
funding. So I get that it may be less
realistic immediately because there's no money.
But thinking about that PA from home idea, let's say a school
was like, we just can't give you a whole day of PA.
However, you're going to get your normal amount of PA, which
is half a day, and you can still spend the rest of the day at
home. This is part of your our
flexible working policy. From my lunch.
Yeah, it's, it's not PA, but you know, you're at home, you do
what you want. So in that time you don't have,
you can do what you want. You can work if you want.
To what do you mean it's not? Pi suppose it is the same thing
actually, it's just what it's just work, OK, But I'm imagining
the idea of funding specialists to come in to make it up to make
a flexible a flexible working calendar.
Well, so you happy baby, you choose when you take it.
Is that you mean? Yeah, I guess so at the
beginning of me talking, I forgot that PPA basically is
flexible working. That's essentially what PA.
Just doing their job, but it's not it's non contact time to do
the rest of. Your job, yeah.
But there is a reality, I think with a little bit of money where
it's where it's just completely normal that people get, like you
said, they can, they can choose their days or it maybe it is a
set day or something. They can just be at home, maybe
even more than one day. Just admit the PA 20 years
behind. But but shut up.
I don't see why they I just. I've got this idea why where
teachers, they get an afternoon every week, they get one
afternoon. I think one afternoon, one
afternoon should be enough to do all the work they do outside of
school. What do you think about that?
Is that I think that's. Great, especially seeing it
could be something like that. So flexible working can work
then can't. It is just having a day off and
we call it a it's. Fine, Yeah, Yeah, you should you
be more needs to be more of it. Yeah, yeah.
So flexible working in that respect of this isn't really
even flexible working, it's just making the job more manageable.
But you can be exploit that day because you know what if you
wanna spend that day morning in the spa and in the afternoon go
shopping and do your work in the evening.
Yeah, that is flexible then because you know you've been
given that date back. Sure you can if you need to take
that time. Lots of schools do.
Every time you just get me day, you get personal day.
You just book it in. It's there's no expectation.
It's on top of everything you already do.
Just get a date every time. And you might use that day to do
your planning for next term and not think about it the weekends.
That's your choice. Brilliant.
You might use that day to go and see your family.
You might put that down on Monday.
Have a long weekend somewhere. Because actually there's a
point, an important distinction that you kind of made there,
which is that it we're flexible working.
If you're still expected to be on the job and home like you
still expected to answer emails and stuff, yeah, that's
different to complete flexibility of you do whatever
you want with this day. Just get the job, just get the
work done whenever you want. I think that's exactly the same.
It's not because you still get the work done.
No, but I'm expected to answer emails at home.
They've got to be doing at that time.
If flexible in terms of I'm not in the office, I'm working from
home. I know people that flexible work
and when they're on their days on their computer, we have to
still prove that work. You've got to.
They've got to respond. To e-mail, Yeah, sorry.
Whereas if it was like because teachings already flexible,
Yeah, in that respect. So sort of like if I do your
extra unpaid work whenever you want.
Yeah, exactly. But if I had PPI at home and the
schools thing was, but you are doing people at home.
And so we do expect you. If we've got some correspondence
with you, we do expect you to answer emails you're working.
That's different to go home and do the work whenever you want.
I think that I think that's reasonable in a way in terms of
you can still e-mail stuff, correspondence, but then it just
goes into that murky business of how much of your PPA is, yeah,
protected. Because if someone emailed you
in PA, right and said, ohh, cash, can I grab you for 10
minutes, We'd almost certainly just yeah, of course.
Yeah, of course we would. But then if you're at home, do
they? Yeah, but no, like can you say
no? Can you say because it's your
call for 10 minutes? I mean I think the fundamental
thing is you probably should be able to say no in any situation
anyway because your a time they can't direct you.
I think it's one I, I'd be interested to know people
listening, right? How much of their PA is actually
completely undirected or not? Because a lot of people I
remember when I start off my career, PA would be like, cool,
let's meet at start PA and then we can just crack on afterwards.
And we still have that now. But that's practical and I don't
mind it because that's part of me planning.
That's part of my assessment. Like I'm going to get together
my team chat, but that is a, that is a meeting that's imposed
on me. So there there is that.
I think that's what it has to be, that professional.
Understand a lot of schools. I think this is quite normal, by
the way, where PA is directed in the sense that they have to go
to a certain PA room with their whole team so they can do their
planning together. And so it's like they're not
directing it. We just expect all your planning
to be done together. That's an expectation.
And we just expect that you do PPA in this room, but we're not
directing. You want to do what you want in
that time. We just need all of your plans
to get done together. And there's a weird thing.
I've known loads of schools that are like.
That and then you trap people sometimes for example, I know
you have we have our staff meeting after your PA yeah.
So that that is that has trapped point in a way like yeah, in
what I mean by that is you probably couldn't go home.
No, because you have to come back and that would be insane.
Yeah, that's a good point actually.
Cause realistically, if it wasn't me, it'd be another year
group doing that. Yeah.
So it's not like I could say just change my PPA day.
Works for you. Selfish.
Yeah. I suppose you could just make
sure all of the staff have PBA on any of the days except for
this one day that we do staff meetings.
No one has PA on that day. So, yeah, I guess summary, do
you think an introduction of proper flexible working?
Mm-hmm. Let's say the discussion at
least of the introduction of more PPA time, so the children
stay in school, but the implementation of you absolutely
can do what you want in your PPA time if that's going home or
not. And also I would say the
reduction of the stigma of job sharing.
And if someone requests job sharing, you should absolutely
go out of your way to try and make it work.
And it's a lot easier now to apply for flexible working you
if you're knocked back, you can apply again.
It used to be apply once, I think in a year.
Now you can apply twice. There are certain things that
the school have to say no because they have to fill out
certain criteria. So when you apply, you can go
through the 8 criteria and say it wouldn't affect the quality
of my work because it wouldn't affect the morale of the school,
because it wouldn't affect the children.
Because like there are eight ways that schools can say no.
And you can kind of, I filled out this form from my partner
when we, we, we, we applied for her to go back and return to
work with flexible and, and go part time.
So you can counteract all of them.
Do your research and apply with all of that in mind.
Do you think that there is any way that simply going down this
road of more, more job shares, more part time for people who
want part time, people who want full time still having a bit of
flexibility with as and when they take their time, Do you
think this will actually fix the problems that we have in?
Each. I think it will massively help
fix it is a big word. I think it will massively over a
huge positive impact. Teachers are burning out,
They're quitting. You can't go to the data.
The education sector is getting worse and underfunded.
Everything is getting worse in education.
We need to do something, and I think this would help keep
teachers in the job. We have to incentivize the job.
So simple as that. Because if there's no incentive.
That's weird. There is no incentive and no
one's training. Yeah.
So umm, yeah, no, that's. Good chat.
That's really interesting. And obviously we literally do
part time. Yeah.
And I think that's a distinction I wasn't quite making at the
start of there are people who don't want to go part time.
They want their full wage. Yeah, exactly.
But they still want to have a decent sexuality.
Yeah. I think the P thing is probably,
I think that's probably it whole day PPA.
I think the school could have a, a little bit of leeway in terms
of, I wouldn't be totally against them saying that first
portion of that day you need to at least be around.
Yeah, it's a whole day. If they said, you know, between
9:00 and 12:00, just make sure you, you know, you're around at
least to answer queries and things.
I, I feel like I could get away of that.
But then if, you know, if the rest of it was completely
flexible, that be really cool. If the whole day was just
completely flexible and like, we just don't care what you do on
that day, as long as you get your job done, then that's cool
as well. I mean, there's some scope there
for like different variations of it, but the day off thing it's
got, it's got to be done, isn't it?
It's gotta happen. It's gotta have, we wanna keep
teachers. We've got to do something.
Clearly upping the money didn't work.
Yeah, the incentive at the start, it's like people looking
around like, cool, yeah, but I'm still going to burn out.
So I can burn out with 30 grand or I can burn out with 27 grand
like. Or I can leave and get a 40
grand job somewhere. Else exactly and actually have
flexible working. So either education has got to
get the times eventually isn't it?
The money is not getting there, so at least make the job better.
100% And you know what, all of this is cool.
And like we talked about the jigging around at the timetable,
even if we're not going to change anything, mean longer
days and then a short day on Friday.
All of this is genuinely completely pointless until we do
actually sort out that workload problem.
Yeah, like, you can do what you want.
Like if that PA comes with extra, you know you're expected
to do more because all you gotta hold out now so you can do this.
With this list of what you were doing before.
No, no, no, no. No, no, that day needs to come
with your job hasn't changed you still the same jobs to do.
You just got an entire extra data because if the
justification for Lt or whoever is in charge of the government
or anything Ofsted is now what we need to have these high
standards and, and we talked before, having high standards is
really good and we need to have. Clearly, you know, gonna work
really well to get this amazing curriculum.
It's like, cool if you're gonna keep them cool, don't judge
them, but give me extra time, yeah?
To get there, I'll tell you what we'll drop the highest standards
is when all your best teachers quit because they can go and get
paid 50K for another job because they really highly skilled.
Yeah, that's when the standards will start dropping exactly that
which is what's happening. Retain your good teachers.
Incentivize us. We love teaching.
We don't want to leave. We don't want to teaching when
you put your notice in. I've done it yesterday.
We haven't. We haven't.
I enjoyed that chat finished up
there. Let's finish up there screaming
in the background. Yeah, let's go and sort that.
Out Bye bye everyone see you next time follows on Instagram
at tech podcast. See you then.