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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach 

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Sleep Repeat. 
My name is Dylan. 

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And my name's Hayden. 
And this week we're going to be 

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diving into the brand new 
writing framework. 

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We're going to look at some of 
the social media controversy 

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around it. 
And then talking to Jane 

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Considine who is a real positive
voice for this framework who 

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thinks it can have a massive 
impact on writing in schools. 

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As always, if you enjoy the 
episode, leave us a review. 

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It really helps us out and get 
in touch on our socials. 

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But first, Dylan's been rooting 
around his teacher cupboard, and

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he's found some goodies. 
Firstly, first thing I want to 

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mention is this mug, OK? 
Yeah, found it in my cupboard in

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that I was given it this week 
and then I put it in my cupboard

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and then I realised the day 
after I've got to clear this 

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cupboard because I am not 
teaching in this room anymore. 

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Next year I cleared it. 
Look at this. 

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Now, anyone who is listening to 
this podcast and doesn't have 

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the absolute joy of watching us,
I'm holding up a mug right now 

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which has Teach the Repeat Mine 
and Hayden's face on it our 

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little cover. 
And it was given to me by a girl

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in my class who not only came in
and gave me this lovely gift 

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with a lovely card that was so 
nice and thoughtful, but brought

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in two mugs. 
And do you know who the other 

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mug was for hating? 
You do. 

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I do know because it was for me.
I couldn't believe it. 

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I I've never even met this 
child, really. 

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I've probably seen them around 
school and suddenly they give me

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a present. 
I was like, oh, what's this? 

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This is amazing. 
I I cracked up. 

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Yeah, when I opened that, like, 
bearing in mind this is just a 

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little child from your class and
she's like, beaming smile. 

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Her parents obviously love the 
podcast. 

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Right, shout out to them. 
I mean, I, I, they, they might 

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love it, they might hate it, I 
don't know, but they've got a 

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nice little mug with a Teacher B
on it. 

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It's amazing, I must say, as a 
teacher, I am very grateful for 

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all the gifts that we get. 
You know, I'm not going to sit 

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here and say one gift's better 
than the other. 

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We get mugs before best teacher 
ever. 

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It's so nice, so lovely. 
But there was just something 

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about this one that I just 
thought was so funny to me 

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because there's no way the child
listens to the podcast. 

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It's just the parent full on 
just thinking what's a nice 

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gift? 
And I really, really appreciate 

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it. 
So from now on in the podcast, 

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this will be around OK. 
At the minute I don't really 

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drink hot drinks. 
No. 

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So it's filled with Fanta I. 
Wasn't going to expose you, but 

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I'm glad you've gone there. 
I don't mind. 

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But I'm going to is it every 
single time and it'll be like a 

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little trinket. 
Now I've been teaching for 

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nearly a decade, so obviously my
cupboard is just full of random 

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stuff. 
The first story I wanted to talk

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about this week was I love the 
end of the year because we 

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always have work experienced 
children in and our deputy head 

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has a simple rule which is we'll
have as many work experience 

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children in as they want to come
from secondary school, but 

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they're all ex students. 
Yes. 

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So every single work experienced
child who comes in 14/15/16 is a

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child who previously came to the
school. 

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Now obviously for the first few 
years of my career that was 

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lovely, but they weren't 
children I knew. 

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No, at this point in my career I
know every single one of them. 

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So this week we had multiple ex 
students come back and, and one 

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of them came up to me and I 
recognised his face immediately 

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and I was like, I recognised 
this face and he looked at me as

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if to say come on, what's my 
name then? 

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And I was like, Oh no, I pride 
myself on being able to remember

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the names of these children when
they come back and I couldn't 

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remember. 
And then I thought to myself, Oh

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no, I'll score. 
There's a visitor badge and 

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there's a little little name bag
there. 

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So I just had a little look. 
I was like, oh, it's you and I, 

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And I couldn't believe it 
because it's so strange when you

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see a child who's grown up 
because they look the same but 

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completely different. 
Yeah, it's the hair. 

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It's the hair that always gets 
me because quite often when 

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you're younger, you quite often 
have blonde hair. 

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I I know it's a silly thing, but
a lot of children have much 

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blonder or lighter. 
Hair. 

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And then when you get older, it 
just tends to happen. 

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Your hair gets darker and that 
just throws me off every time 

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with the face, you know, you can
get it. 

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However, I, I was a bit more 
proud to say that obviously I 

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also taught these these these 
work experienced students. 

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And when I saw a few in the 
corridors full named them 

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straight away. 
I was like, hey, it's full name.

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Hey, it's full name. 
And they were like, wow, you 

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must be the best teacher in the 
school. 

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You remember my full name, Not 
like Mr. Price, He's so 

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horrible. 
He didn't even my full name. 

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He had to look at my badge to 
work out who I was. 

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And I was like, yeah, that's 
just who I am. 

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That sounds like a completely 
natural and definitely 

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conversation that happened that 
definitely existed. 

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But anyway, in my cupboard, I 
this is the ultimate coincidence

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I was clearing out and I found, 
you know, one of those old 

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sample sheets of class photos. 
Oh, yeah, yeah. 

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So I found a class photo from 
2019. 

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So six years ago when I taught 
these children in Year 5. 

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And I found I was like, no way 
have I found this with a couple 

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of them in it. 
And I went to show them and you 

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do their face like, you know, 
when they see themselves as 

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younger children. 
And then I was there and I was 

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ready for the ultimate rinse 
from my children because they 

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were in my class. 
So in my class with the work 

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experience children and I found 
this. 

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And then obviously my whole your
class, like can I get up and 

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see? 
I'm like, yeah, of course you 

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can. 
Come on. 

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And I was ready though, because 
obviously I'm six years younger.

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I look a bit different, a little
bit trimmer, a little bit less 

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grey in the beard. 
OK. 

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Yeah, so I'm a little bit 
different, OK. 

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But they all, all of them said 
you look just the same. 

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And I was, I was honestly like 
wearing that like a badge of 

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honour. 
How often does a kid say you 

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look the same? 
It's because we finally hit that

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period in life. 
Well, you do just kind of look 

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the same for quite a long time. 
You do, You kind of do. 

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And to be fair with you, you 
haven't looked the same since 

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you're about 12. 
Like you, you were that kid at 

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school that was rocking a beard 
at like what? 

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Everyone else is like just 
starting puberty and you're just

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walking around with a beard. 
Like I'll always, I'll always 

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remember someone tell someone 
told me when I was younger, 

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you're going to look 27 for 
about 15 years. 

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And they were absolutely right. 
I'm just waiting to dip over 

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into that next period. 
I'm starting to because I get 

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the grades of my beard and 
stuff. 

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I'm starting to enter that next 
phase of how I look, which is 

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definitely just an old man. 
I had a similar experience when 

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I was 23 and I and I first 
started to shave my hair. 

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Someone said you are going to 
look 50. 

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For. 
About 15 years and I was like, 

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oh, that's weird because in 15 
years I still won't be 50, 

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though that's funny, isn't it? 
Then you look, then you'll look 

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60 and you'll never catch up. 
You'll never get it will never 

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be the same again. 
Never. 

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Yeah. 
Cheers, guys. 

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No, but, but yeah. 
So I was clearing up my 

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cupboard, fan of random stuff as
you do. 

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Like I found like old superhero 
like displays I used to make 

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that were laminated. 
And my first thought was I used 

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to do so much extra. 
I used to do so much extra 

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stuff. 
And it was. 

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And it did just remind me like 
it was really nice for the kids 

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and it really did encourage 
them. 

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And I do think that's where 
those kind of things have a 

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place because I remember having 
that little maths group like 6-7

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years ago who needed that boost 
at their times tables and seeing

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themselves as a superhero on the
board and moving up different 

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times tables. 
It did encourage some of them. 

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I, I think looking back, I'm 
like, at this point, I can 

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encourage children in different 
ways, which doesn't mean I sit 

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there laminating a Saturday 
evening, right. 

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So, but I understand why people 
when I say things like don't do 

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that, don't do that. 
I kind of get the push back a 

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bit from teachers who are just 
like, it is nice though. 

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And I just want to, yeah, where,
where do you stand on that? 

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Like it did make me think, do we
push too much to absolutely not 

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do anything ever? 
Or do you think we need to be a 

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bit more clearer of people as to
say, well, yeah, of course you 

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can. 
I hope not. 

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I think if people really listen 
to our podcast, right, if you 

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just listen to a couple of sound
bites on Instagram or something,

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you might you might get maybe a 
a miss, you might misinterpret 

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what we're saying. 
I feel like our message is, is 

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quite clear, which is you don't 
actually have to do these things

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to be a good teacher. 
Like you kind of just said it 

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then it is genuinely nice to 
make those displays and make 

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those things. 
It is nice. 

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And it probably is a bit nicer 
than not doing it. 

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Yeah, but it's not like a 
completely linear scale of, oh, 

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therefore if you do them, you 
are literally better than the 

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person that doesn't do them. 
That's not how it works because 

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you can inspire children in 
different ways. 

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So that's the only message I'd 
really want to get across. 

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I think about going home and 
doing this extra stuff because 

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not everyone can. 
And we shouldn't be pushing a 

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culture. 
That's what we always fight back

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against. 
We shouldn't be pushing a 

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culture of you have to do it to 
be a good teacher. 

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You know, you're on this 
pedestal if you go home and 

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Marty yourself and working every
evening because you know what? 

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Most people get to the point in 
their life, but they just can't 

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do that anymore. 
I certainly used to do it. 

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I don't do it anymore or I'm not
a worst teacher because of it. 

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I hope not. 
I find it a real shame and I do 

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find it a bit frustrating when 
it takes, for example, a huge 

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life change for someone to see 
that like for example, having 

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children. 
A lot of people, and I've seen 

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it happen who are almost like 
down that road of no, we all 

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should do this. 
Come on, guys, it's teaching, 

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it's a vocation, it's our lives.
We should do it. 

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Who after having children 
completely flip and change their

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mind. 
And I understand why they flip 

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and change their mind and then 
and then they say, no, look, OK,

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I don't have the time anymore. 
I'd rather spend the time with 

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my family than doing this. 
And I understand now what people

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meant when they said, oh, gosh, 
I get it. 

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When you can't do it anymore. 
It kind of frustrates me that it

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takes that to happen to you to 
understand that that's a thing 

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in real life that affects other 
people. 

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And I just think a little bit of
empathy, right, If we just have 

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the baseline of it obviously 
doesn't affect how much of a 

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good teacher you are. 
And it's obviously fine to do. 

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That's a nice, you know, middle 
ground, I think. 

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And it doesn't matter what your 
home life is. 

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It doesn't matter if you've got 
kids or not. 

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I really, really, really dislike
it when colleagues who have 

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children and I include myself in
that now are seen as, oh, it's 

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OK, you don't have to do it. 
You've got a kid. 

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And then the onus switches on 
the other people who don't. 

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
I, I think that's completely 

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unfair. 
I think that's completely wrong.

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And I think the kind of attitude
of, OK, let's just have a 

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baseline that this is extra and 
it can be nice and it can be 

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lovely and it can be good for 
the children, but it can also be

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extra. 
Volunteering down at the soup 

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kitchen is lovely. 
It's a really nice thing to do. 

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And I think if you go down to a 
food bank and help people out, 

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you're an amazing person, but 
you're not a bad person if you 

225
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:55,840
don't. 
Yeah, right. 

226
00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,160
And I think it's the same kind 
of logic here of you're not a 

227
00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,640
bad teacher if you don't know, 
like, let's not actually just 

228
00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,760
say, oh, it's part of the job 
because it just isn't. 

229
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,480
And a little bit of empathy, I 
think, to people's decisions and

230
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,600
life choices, I think goes a 
long way. 

231
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,520
And if we just separate out, I 
guess what I'm doing here is 

232
00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,200
justifying why I stopped doing 
superhero. 

233
00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,240
Yeah, this is a really long 
winded way of saying I couldn't 

234
00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,800
bother to marinate superheroes 
anymore and put them on a wall 

235
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,360
and tell kids that they can do 
their timetables. 

236
00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:22,920
So, yeah, well done. 
Dylan, you're a terrible 

237
00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,160
teacher. 
I think that's what we've 

238
00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:25,880
established here. 
Everything you've just said, all

239
00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,480
the sentiment and just go back 
to. 

240
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,640
Yeah, but you didn't do it, so 
you are just worse, right? 

241
00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:31,800
Dylan, I want to know what's in 
your cupboard because I can see 

242
00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,880
a few things here. 
I am quite curious as to what 

243
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:35,680
you've got. 
So I brought a few things with 

244
00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:37,440
me because obviously all the 
funny bits were there. 

245
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,320
I found an inflatable Flamingo, 
for example, like you know, that

246
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,200
was and the kids quite enjoyed 
actually me show. 

247
00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:44,720
I don't know. 
Okay, I don't know. 

248
00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:45,960
I think it's my job shares 
actually. 

249
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,560
So because you got a job share, 
we got doubled the little 

250
00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:51,800
trinkets and little things also 
found like an old like bottle of

251
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,320
water, right, that I was looking
for and it had water in it, 

252
00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,880
right? 
It's like bottle and on. 

253
00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,600
I remember buying that like 4 
years. 

254
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,200
Ago. 
Oh no, that's disgusting. 

255
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,920
Yeah, that's disgusting. 
The water was fine. 

256
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:03,720
It's water. 
Oh, was it? 

257
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:04,320
Did you drink? 
It did. 

258
00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,040
You no, of course it didn't. 
It's been there four years. 

259
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,480
Of course it didn't. 
So you, you found a little bit 

260
00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,480
of something in the back which 
maybe shouldn't have been there.

261
00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:11,960
A few little treats, a few 
little treats. 

262
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,120
But what I did find was a whole 
tray of books, right. 

263
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,880
And obviously as teachers, we 
love books and it really brought

264
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,440
back memories and, and, and I 
didn't even know these books 

265
00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:22,520
that existed, to be honest with 
you. 

266
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:23,880
And I thought, oh, this is so 
nice. 

267
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:25,840
And I thought, what better way 
than actually just to do a 

268
00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,800
little shout on the podcast of a
few books that I love for one 

269
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,520
reason or another. 
So I'm going to go through three

270
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,560
of them right now. 
This first book, it's called The

271
00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:36,800
House with Chicken Legs by 
Sophie Anderson, and this was a 

272
00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,040
book that reminds me of COVID 
lockdown. 

273
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:40,960
And you might be thinking, why 
is that a good thing, Dylan? 

274
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:42,360
I'm thinking, why is that a good
thing, Dylan? 

275
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,360
Yeah. 
And the reason why it's a really

276
00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,480
positive memory for me is 
because this is the book that I 

277
00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,360
read to the year sixes when they
returned in COVID year. 

278
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,640
So you might remember that when 
COVID first first happened, 

279
00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,000
March 2020, schools closed, 
obviously, but then the year 6 

280
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,720
children were invited back in 
after a while of like the key 

281
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,760
worker children being there for 
the last couple of weeks 

282
00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,480
essentially as like a transition
because obviously they're going 

283
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,040
to a new school in September. 
So just the year 6 children went

284
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,160
in and all the teachers went 
back to work and we had our own 

285
00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,080
small bubbles of children of 
year six children. 

286
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:22,200
And it was to me, the ultimate 
kind of example of how teaching 

287
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,680
can be absolutely amazing 
because it was me and 12 kids. 

288
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,000
So firstly, it's like like 
smaller class sizes, which is 

289
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,320
just so good. 
But we had complete freedom as 

290
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,320
well. 
Like we had complete freedom 

291
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,680
because it was, well, this is at
this point bonus stuff. 

292
00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:38,640
Let's get through what we can. 
Let's do a lot of kind of 

293
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,800
pastoral stuff because it's 
about transition. 

294
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:42,280
So it was nice to work with the 
children like that. 

295
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,160
But also actually I could really
help each individual child 

296
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,160
because I only had 12 of them. 
And also meant we had time to 

297
00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,560
just read for enjoyment. 
And I remember this book, the 

298
00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:52,800
House with Chicken Legs, because
it was quite I haven't, I 

299
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,160
haven't been used to teaching 
year 6. 

300
00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,960
So I get a lot of lower school 
books that don't really dive 

301
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,440
into genres and maybe you can 
elaborate a little bit more 

302
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,120
about how you broach that with 
children. 

303
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,040
But this is a lot about grief. 
It's a lot about loss, It's a 

304
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,120
lot about death. 
And I think the the main 

305
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,240
character, Marinka, she is like 
the gatekeeper to the 

306
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,040
afterworld. 
So she lets spirits pass through

307
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,000
and kind of enter the the 
peacefulness of the afterworld. 

308
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,640
And it's all about like her 
destiny. 

309
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,000
Like she's, she's got this job 
because it's her destiny. 

310
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,960
It's written in the stars, which
does she really want to do it or

311
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,480
not? 
And it really broaches like 

312
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,040
basically death. 
And I remember thinking, gosh, 

313
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:28,800
is this OK for children? 
Of course it is. 

314
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,800
Of course it's OK for children. 
And I read it to them. 

315
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,160
They absolutely loved it. 
They were hurt. 

316
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,280
It's a really good story. 
What do you think about these 

317
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,160
kind of like these genres 
almost, or these themes that are

318
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,320
a bit more mature? 
What kind of impact they had on 

319
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:41,280
their children. 
Because they loved it. 

320
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:42,560
I think that's exactly what 
they're for. 

321
00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:45,800
They are literally written to 
help children understand these. 

322
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,240
Really like hard concepts in 
life. 

323
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,080
It's not like I I get that we, 
we, we protect children. 

324
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:53,720
I wouldn't read that to a 
reception class because they 

325
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:55,560
don't really would be able to 
conceptually understand it yet. 

326
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:56,720
But yeah, that's exactly what 
they're for. 

327
00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,480
I think they're great books and,
and we often, I think a lot of 

328
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,400
schools, we, we certainly do in 
our year 6 curriculum we built, 

329
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,600
we tried to build in at least 
one book that does like approach

330
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,760
some of the, a subject like 
this, you know, like loss or 

331
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,240
death or something, something 
that's just a bit tough where 

332
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,960
it's, it's written in a 
sensitive way for children to 

333
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,160
think about it and have 
discussions. 

334
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,440
And I often have the best, most 
mature discussions with the 

335
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,720
children about these things. 
I think that's part of school. 

336
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,000
I think that's part of getting 
ready for secondary school and 

337
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,440
wider life. 
Yeah, I find it interesting how 

338
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,680
that just really stuck with me. 
I saw the front cover. 

339
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:29,200
It's crazy that a book can do 
that. 

340
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,200
And it did transform me back 
five years to that point in my 

341
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,880
career where actually I really 
enjoyed that little bit of my 

342
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,560
teaching, my teaching career, 
and I really enjoyed that. 

343
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,960
But I always feel bad thinking 
about how I did actually quite 

344
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,320
enjoy the teaching element 
during COVID because obviously 

345
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,080
it was a devastating time in 
general. 

346
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,400
So I always feel really like, 
can I say that I I enjoyed parts

347
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,320
of those because I shouldn't 
really say I should have enjoyed

348
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,760
any time of COVID. 
But I also had really, really 

349
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,560
good experiences with the 
children, I think because they 

350
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:56,160
were quite raw where it was like
everything was just everything 

351
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,360
was just chaos, right? 
It was, there was no proper 

352
00:13:58,360 --> 00:13:59,640
routines. 
It was like, oh, we've got to 

353
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,920
get killed children in all those
key workers in, oh, actually 

354
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,920
we've got to do these bubbles. 
Well, actually everyone's coming

355
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,680
back in for a day because Boris 
Johnson thought that was a good 

356
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:06,840
idea. 
Oh no, no, we're going off 

357
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,480
again. 
And it was like, it was a bit 

358
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,520
chaotic. 
But I tell you what, I had the 

359
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,640
realist experiences with the 
kids like you did there reading 

360
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:13,920
that book to them. 
That's probably not something 

361
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,000
you would have done if we were 
just on timetable, you know. 

362
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:18,920
Yeah, that's what gets lost and 
that's where it's a shame 

363
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:20,840
really. 
And that's why I think I, I kind

364
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,360
of hope during COVID that those 
moments, we'd be like, Oh my 

365
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:24,840
gosh, this is what teaching's 
all about. 

366
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,400
This is where it's unbelievable.
And I feel unfortunately, like 

367
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,400
we kind of slip back into our 
old habits of, of trying to get 

368
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,680
as much done as possible all the
time. 

369
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,040
These moments actually have the 
biggest impact. 

370
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,520
I'll say one more thing on 
COVID, what should you get your 

371
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,720
next book ready? 
That was one of my favourite 

372
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,960
findings. 
And this is very local, so I 

373
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,000
cannot actually make a huge 
generalisation about this, but 

374
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,000
it is just interesting from our 
school was when I, when I had 

375
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,480
the ES-60 that didn't take that 
didn't take their Sats, you 

376
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,800
know, it was cancelled because 
they just missed so much. 

377
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,080
We'd obviously done a mock SATS 
at some point in the year 

378
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,760
leading up to it, just to get an
idea of just for our own sake, 

379
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,320
data points. 
They did really well. 

380
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,760
And I remember being like, Oh, 
that's funny because we didn't, 

381
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,720
we didn't do so much formal 
stuff, but we still taught them 

382
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,440
obviously loads of stuff that we
think is important, like reading

383
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,920
books, like we've read lots of 
stuff with them. 

384
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:09,560
And we taught them the mass 
curriculum anyway. 

385
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,000
And they just still smashed the 
test. 

386
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,400
And I was like, Oh my God, look,
surely there's surely there's a 

387
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,840
message here somewhere. 
But, you know, maybe that was 

388
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,520
just us. 
Well, you know, SATS didn't 

389
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,400
happen for two years and those 
children are fine. 

390
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,120
So I think it what what it does 
show, whether or not you land on

391
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,960
the side of we should or 
shouldn't be doing them or we 

392
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,600
prepare too much or do little, 
blah, blah, blah. 

393
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,320
What it clearly shows is that we
don't need to do them. 

394
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:30,960
Yeah, you know, we don't need 
them. 

395
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,200
Like, they might be good for 
certain reasons, but they're 

396
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,040
also, you know, having the view 
that we should get rid of them 

397
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,600
is also completely valid because
we have two years of data of 

398
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,200
children not doing them. 
And like you said, they smashed 

399
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,280
their previous stats when they 
did Marks and they learned 

400
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:42,640
stuff. 
Still. 

401
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,280
And they've missed. 
Loads of school, right? 

402
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,640
It was like. 
Yeah, I I do think there's a big

403
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:47,720
impact on missing loads of 
school. 

404
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,080
But I what I'm saying, yeah, I 
agree with you in terms of 

405
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,000
currently when we were in school
all the time, it's OK. 

406
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,560
I mean, it's OK to think that we
should maybe get. 

407
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,200
Well, the message it gets, just 
to be really clear, I'm not 

408
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:58,200
advocating we missed those at 
school. 

409
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,560
The message to me was spending 
10 minutes reading a book in 

410
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,920
school instead of doing that 
like 19th task in the end of 

411
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,800
your curriculum or whatever it 
is, you've done an hour and a 

412
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,320
half of maths and you've got 10 
more minutes. 

413
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,120
You know what? 
I think we just need to calm 

414
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,960
down about it like it is OK. 
We can actually allow children 

415
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,440
to, you know, enjoy learning 
sometimes and not and not be 

416
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,440
trying to measure something to 
the NTH degree and they can 

417
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:20,920
still make great progress. 
It's OK. 

418
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,960
Well, talking about reading in 
maths, my next book that I found

419
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,720
again transformed me back to 
honesty, like the second year of

420
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,960
my career right at the start. 
And we had a bit of training on 

421
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,360
this and it was about using 
books in maths. 

422
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,480
And this one really stuck out to
me. 

423
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,680
And again, I'm going to read out
the title 1 is a snail, 10 is a 

424
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:41,640
crab. 
Now if you are any kind of 

425
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,880
remote interest in teaching 
maths and you're a primary 

426
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:46,680
school teacher, you will love 
this book. 

427
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,120
You will absolutely love this 
book because what it is 1 is a 

428
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,400
snail, 10 is a crab. 
It's about number of feet. 

429
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,840
And the amazing thing about this
book, I love books where I feel 

430
00:16:54,840 --> 00:17:01,160
like you can pick this up in a 
key stage one class or in a year

431
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,800
six class and make the learning 
relevant. 

432
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,520
So the idea is you've got 1 is a
snail because a snail has 1 foot

433
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,720
and it says in brackets this is 
a snail's foot, which is just 

434
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,920
the base of the snail basically.
And then it goes on say 2 is a 

435
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:14,839
person. 
So what do you think 3 is 

436
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:16,640
Hayden? 
Something with three legs. 

437
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,680
No, because that doesn't exist. 
Hayden 3 is a person and a 

438
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,240
snail, yes. 
OK, so then we go to 4/4. 

439
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,640
Is a dog good? 
SO5 must be a dog and a snail, 

440
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,359
right? 
And you can see immediately if 

441
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,680
you've got a maths brain on 
thinking about early years or 

442
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,960
maybe a key stage 1, how good 
this is for odd and even. 

443
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,160
Yeah, straight away, so good. 
You can just really visually 

444
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,520
represent it as odd is an extra 
1 on the even and you can match 

445
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,440
up the rest of the pairs. 
But again, thinking of year six,

446
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,800
you can use this for algebra. 
Yeah, you can very easily 

447
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,480
represent numbers with pictures 
here. 

448
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,400
And I just think this was one of
my favourite lessons I've ever 

449
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,880
taught in my year 4 class, which
kind of introduced the idea of 

450
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,880
unknowns and algebra to them, 
but in a way which is really 

451
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:57,680
engaging for them because we 
also read a really cool book. 

452
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,160
If I remember rightly, it gets 
to the point where 10 is a crab,

453
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,240
right? 
And then and then it the book 

454
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,160
carries on and it goes in like 
multiples of 10 exactly. 

455
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,360
And it even does like I think it
does the multiples of 10 like as

456
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:10,320
in like 3050 seventy. 
And it still carries on with 

457
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,960
this idea of it's it's three, 
it's two crabs plus something. 

458
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,320
Else, So it's more like it's 
plus one crab. 

459
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:17,840
Yeah, that's right, yeah, plus 
one. 

460
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,920
So it's like, you know, you have
10 dogs, it's 40, yeah. 

461
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,640
Plus a crab, it's 50. 
And then you have 6. 

462
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,680
You have 10 insects, it's 60, 
yeah. 

463
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,080
Plus a crab, it's 70. 
So it's always that extra, like 

464
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,240
1-10 or one extra. 
I used this book. 

465
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,400
I did it in year 4 because I was
with you at the time, but I also

466
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,920
used it a couple years, like 
years later in year 6 class. 

467
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,200
And I did like a really cool 
algebra lesson with it. 

468
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,760
And it was just, yeah, it's such
a good book to inspire children 

469
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,040
to just understand things. 
It's just fun, isn't it? 

470
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,960
Yeah, it's fun. 
Yeah, and it's just, it's still 

471
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,280
math. 
Let's just get this clear. 

472
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:47,120
It's still math. 
Yeah. 

473
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,400
You won't see in the curriculum.
Oh, you must read 1 as a sound 

474
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,240
turns to grab. 
No, no, no, no. 

475
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,120
But it still explores parts of 
the curriculum. 

476
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,280
It still allows children to show
interest. 

477
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,600
And actually, more importantly, 
it really LED some good 

478
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,760
reasoning and problem solving. 
Yeah, because the math wasn't 

479
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,080
too tricky, obviously for a year
4. 

480
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,440
I know they can count the legs 
on an insect. 

481
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:04,840
Yeah, I know they can count the 
legs on. 

482
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,840
What wasn't doing that? 
We were exploring maths, we were

483
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,080
having fun, we were solving 
problems and we were stretching.

484
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:10,880
It it was an inspiration. 
It was an inspiration. 

485
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,760
Exactly. 
And again, that's the kind of 

486
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:14,840
thing we can't measure that it's
not going to be on a Sats paper.

487
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,320
How many crabs in a snail is 
that? 

488
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:17,520
It's not going to be on a Sats 
paper. 

489
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,040
But the actual kind of, if we're
thinking about the aims of the 

490
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,320
national curriculum for maths, I
think it hits that all the time.

491
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,080
And the last one, this one, the 
book with no pictures. 

492
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,160
Yeah. 
This is written by No BJ Novak. 

493
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,360
Why do I know that? 
Name he is Ryan from the Oh of 

494
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:34,840
course, yeah, BJN over yeah, 
yeah. 

495
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:36,280
So he wrote this. 
It's called The Book with No 

496
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,960
Pictures and again, you can read
this to any ear group and the 

497
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,160
kids apps that you're hooked. 
I hope it's just full of the 

498
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,040
Office memes. 
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 

499
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:43,360
no. 
This. 

500
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:47,040
This is all about how you're 
reading it, and it plays on the 

501
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,800
idea that as a adult reading to 
the children, you just read 

502
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,040
what's on the page, so there are
no pictures. 

503
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,960
So it's quite boring. 
It starts off so this is a book.

504
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:55,640
Yeah, it looks purposely very 
boring. 

505
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,080
It might seem like no fun to 
have someone read you a book 

506
00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,680
with no pictures. 
And the and the kids at this 

507
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,320
point are like, yeah, this is 
this is boring. 

508
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,320
Why are you doing this one? 
It probably seems boring and 

509
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,600
serious, except. 
And then it goes on to explain 

510
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,600
how the book works. 
Everything the words say, the 

511
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,600
person reading this book has to 
say. 

512
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:13,320
So the person reading the book 
has to say. 

513
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,920
And then as a teacher, you 
start, you know, acting up and 

514
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,400
you're like, Oh, no matter what.
And the kids are like, oh, 

515
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,120
what's it going to say? 
What's it going to make my 

516
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:21,080
teacher say? 
That's the deal. 

517
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,760
That's the rule. 
So that means even if the word 

518
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,040
say dot, dot, dot. 
And at this point, the kids are,

519
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,200
like, on the edge of their 
seats, like, they can't wait to 

520
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,320
listen, block. 
And you just do random words. 

521
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,200
Yeah, Yeah. 
And the whole idea is what? 

522
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:34,840
Wait. 
That doesn't even mean anything.

523
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,440
Blurf. 
Wait a second. 

524
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,000
What? 
This isn't the kind of book I 

525
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,040
wanted to read. 
And it becomes you narrating the

526
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,640
book, but in a way where the 
children feel like you're being 

527
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,360
taken on a ride. 
Amazing, fun, really short read.

528
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,800
Get it for your class. 
I I often used to read this on 

529
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:49,960
transition day. 
Yeah. 

530
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:50,960
So a nice little thing at the 
end. 

531
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,200
Just have a bit of fun with the 
kids. 

532
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:53,720
It doesn't take very long at 
all. 

533
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,040
You can read it to any age group
in primary and they are hooked. 

534
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:57,400
That's really funny. 
That's really cool. 

535
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,040
I've never seen that one before.
I've seen the other two, but 

536
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,040
I've never seen that before. 
Where? 

537
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,960
Where did you find this? 
I just, I don't, I can't 

538
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,520
remember. 
It's like I just just saw it 

539
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,720
online. 
I think I saw BJ Novak himself 

540
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,680
reading it to a bunch of 
children and I thought, this is 

541
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,080
unbelievable. 
And it often gets recommended. 

542
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:11,920
And I can absolutely vouch for 
that. 

543
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,880
OK, Go and search on Amazon, any
of these three books you got The

544
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,280
House of Chicken legs, 1 is a 
snail, 10 is a crab. 

545
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,000
The book with no pictures. 
Fantastic for your class. 

546
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,480
Recently, the brand new writing 
framework was released by the 

547
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,440
government and it was put out to
teachers everywhere. 

548
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,880
Obviously got access to it. 
And we got a few messages 

549
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:33,760
actually of people asking, are 
you going to go through this? 

550
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,280
And I said, oh, well, you just 
wait and see because we 

551
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,520
absolutely are. 
So we're going to talk to Jane 

552
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,640
Constein a bit later on from The
Right Stuff, who is a big voice 

553
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,800
out there for writing in 
general, and she's a big 

554
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,480
advocate for this writing 
framework. 

555
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,800
And I think it's nice to see 
someone who's so positive and 

556
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,680
speaks so highly about the 
impact that we can have on 

557
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,240
children to improve their 
writing. 

558
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,200
And that chat we have with Jane 
is going to dive into what 

559
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,240
specific parts of this framework
are going to be important in 

560
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,000
implementing in schools 
especially, and why it can have 

561
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,400
a real positive impact. 
But I do think we'd be doing a 

562
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,840
bit of a disservice if we just 
rolled into it and said, yeah, 

563
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,120
This is why it's fantastic 
because a lot of the discourse 

564
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,400
around the writing framework has
been mixed. 

565
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,520
And I think we should start me 
and you by just talking about 

566
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:22,440
the the early years. 
So, so this was a framework for 

567
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,960
writing and it was for the whole
of primary school. 

568
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,200
But a lot of the push back and 
to be fair, a lot of the focus 

569
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,720
has been on early years, 
foundation stage and getting 

570
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,040
children writing earlier and 
getting it right at reception. 

571
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,240
That was one of the big lines. 
What do you feel about that in 

572
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,560
general? 
I think, look, I, I think people

573
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:48,240
have understandably looked at 
this framework and said there's 

574
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,440
a lot of the stuff I kind of 
thought already and there's 

575
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,800
clearly a huge push towards, 
let's just do it all a bit 

576
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,640
earlier. 
This is how I, this is how I 

577
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:55,800
feel like people have 
interpreted it. 

578
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,360
Whether they read the whole 
thing or whether, whether they 

579
00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:59,840
just read that lovely summary 
that came with it, I don't know.

580
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:05,760
And they said children at four 
years old or three, you know, 

581
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,720
four years old really, if that's
not in reception and not 

582
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,920
necessarily going to be in the 
right position to be starting 

583
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,960
formal writing or handwriting or
spelling or whatever. 

584
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,800
Like some people even saying 
things like that, their bone 

585
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,280
structure isn't even ready yet. 
And there was that picture that 

586
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,440
went viral, wasn't there, of 
the, the, what was it like an 

587
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,200
X-ray or something like that of 
people's of children's hands? 

588
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,320
And people are using that to be 
like, yeah, so we absolutely 

589
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,840
shouldn't be doing this. 
We should just be playing. 

590
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,200
Yeah, yeah. 
Well, Cos look, play's natural 

591
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,320
and and I saw, I saw one of the 
push backs to that was about, 

592
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,200
well, we don't stop children 
from throwing a ball when their 

593
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:39,920
bones aren't fully formed. 
That's a good point. 

594
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,320
And and again, but a good point 
back again was, yeah, but play 

595
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,440
and running and throwing, that's
all natural stuff. 

596
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,120
Writing isn't inherently a 
natural thing we do. 

597
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,840
All you need to do is watch a 
kid hold a pen and you know, 

598
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,320
it's not a natural thing for a 
child to do. 

599
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,760
It is learned. 
And again, I think another 

600
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,080
another point on that exact 
picture of the bones forming was

601
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:03,120
that's used in in the dog world 
when you mention how puppies 

602
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,640
shouldn't be exerting too much 
pressure on their bones and 

603
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,360
joints yet. 
And you need to look after them 

604
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:10,520
and care for them and make sure 
they're not doing too much 

605
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,440
because it helps with their bone
fusion. 

606
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,120
And everyone who's owned a young
dog knows that that's something 

607
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,280
you have to really look out for.
And the whole point with that 

608
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:18,280
person was saying, yeah, OK, 
yeah. 

609
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,000
But look, this might be not the 
best time to be pushing when 

610
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,040
children are still forming. 
To be pushing. 

611
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,680
This idea of holding a pen? 
Sure. 

612
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,440
And I'll be perfectly honest 
with you, I'm not really sure 

613
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,400
what the science behind this is.
Or even even like the example 

614
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,640
you saying about playing is 
natural. 

615
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,760
I get the playing is natural but
is throwing the ball natural? 

616
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,600
Like really so? 
But you get some kids get to 

617
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,760
year 4, Year 5, and they're 
still having to learn how to 

618
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,280
throw a. 
Ball, I guess you're you're 

619
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,720
right in that OK if I put out. 
So I've got Rory, my son, yeah, 

620
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,160
who's 21 months old. 
And if out on the floor quite 

621
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,080
often, he just has a bunch of 
things out that he can play 

622
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:52,200
with. 
He's replay, obviously. 

623
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:54,400
I might have an extra sketch or 
something. 

624
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:55,840
Do you know when you have a 
magnetic pen? 

625
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,920
Yep, that's on the floor. 
I have some ball pit that he 

626
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:00,080
jumps in and throws balls 
around. 

627
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,720
He will happily run around, 
jump, throw himself off the 

628
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,400
sofa. 
Yeah, that's not safe. 

629
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,240
It's natural. 
So it's not necessarily just 

630
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,720
because something's natural, it 
means it's safe, and it's not 

631
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,720
necessarily something is 
unnatural, it's bad for you or 

632
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,440
anything like that. 
I don't think those lines are 

633
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,560
always clear, obviously, because
if I left Rory to his own 

634
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,120
devices, he'd jump head first 
into the corner of the table. 

635
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,280
So it's not necessarily just 
because it's natural, it's. 

636
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,840
Right. 
He absolutely would. 

637
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,520
But my my point is naturally 
he'd go into the ball pit, he'd 

638
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,320
jumped and go and he jumps in 
and it's his favourite thing 

639
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,920
ever and he just flies around, 
flings things, picks up a ball, 

640
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,400
throws it across the room. 
That's a good point, that's 

641
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,040
natural. 
But in the same respect, he 

642
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,320
walks over to a pen and paper or
the magnetic pen and he starts 

643
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,040
making markings on paper. 
That's natural to him as well. 

644
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,200
And I suppose my point here is 
if we're thinking about this 

645
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:46,560
framework, firstly, it's a 
framework. 

646
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,040
It's not a curriculum. 
It's, it's more like an, an 

647
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,960
idea, you know, a wider meta 
look at the science behind 

648
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,120
writing and what might be the 
best ways to approach it. 

649
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:57,520
The new curriculum's on the 
horizon and I think a lot of it 

650
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,040
will overlap because of the 
people who've been working on 

651
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,240
it, clearly. 
But it's just a framework and 

652
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,120
it's non statutory. 
So I know it's going to be 

653
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:06,720
pushed and I think it could have
a lot of good in it. 

654
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,560
I think it's a lot of stuff in 
their school should implement. 

655
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,760
But, you know, just take it with
a pinch of salt is essentially 

656
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,240
what I'm saying. 
And I don't think I get the 

657
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,640
worries. 
And here's my biggest push back 

658
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,600
to it that just came to my head 
immediately. 

659
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,560
There was the, when it was first
released, I read through it and 

660
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,200
I read the overviews and I read 
the criticisms and I read the 

661
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,760
pros and the cons and I, I sit 
here, I think it's a positive to

662
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:30,960
be talking about writing in this
way. 

663
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,360
I agree. 
I think it's great to have 

664
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:37,200
government written documents 
saying writing is really hard to

665
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,000
teach. 
I think teachers hearing that 

666
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,760
that's a good thing because 
quite often with writing we just

667
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,880
expect to have a fantastic 
results immediately. 

668
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,800
It is markedly harder than 
teaching anything else in my 

669
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,080
opinion. 
So I think that's a really good 

670
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,360
thing. 
And I think having lots of 

671
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:51,280
guidance and help is a really 
good thing. 

672
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,400
And I think the fact that they 
did consult with loads of 

673
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,080
people, loads of different 
people, not one person, not two 

674
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,520
people, loads of people who've 
dedicated their life to writing 

675
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,720
clearly I think there wasn't one
person who monopolised it. 

676
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,040
There wasn't someone who took 
over. 

677
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,880
And it's just like pure greed 
from them because they want them

678
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,720
to do what they want them to do.
It was grounded from what I've 

679
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,040
seen in research, and it was 
backed with voices of lots. 

680
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,640
Of people, there are lots of 
opinions from other people. 

681
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:16,960
Exactly. 
I think that's a really good 

682
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,000
thing. 
But you know, OK, here's where I

683
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,680
see it. 
I think that's good, positive. 

684
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,400
And I think I'll chat with 
Jane's going to really highlight

685
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:23,480
that. 
And I think people need to hear 

686
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:24,200
that. 
I really do. 

687
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,480
But I still look at it and I 
just think, look how many other 

688
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,920
countries in the world don't 
start formal education until 678

689
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:33,600
years old. 
Yeah. 

690
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,480
And are absolutely fine. 
And if anything is thrived, 

691
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:38,680
Yeah. 
Where? 

692
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,400
Really good point. 
Where play? 

693
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,840
I'm so passionate about play. 
I feel like I'm not an expert 

694
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,880
what whatsoever, but every time 
I hear someone talk passionately

695
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,040
about how important play is for 
learning, I can't believe how 

696
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,600
quickly we take that away from 
our children. 

697
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,560
I can't believe how quickly 
continuous provision is stripped

698
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,200
from our children and we're just
getting behind, behind desks and

699
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,440
seats straight away doing formal
work. 

700
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,200
I think that I I don't like that
now. 

701
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,520
And now I've got my son, I think
to myself, don't want Rory doing

702
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,400
that quickly. 
I want him playing. 

703
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,160
I want him to learn through play
because it's so powerful. 

704
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,680
And those children in Finland, 
Scandinavia, wherever it might 

705
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,800
be, who start work at 7, I think
that shows. 

706
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,320
It doesn't have to be that we 
nail writing and get it right in

707
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,040
reception. 
No, it doesn't have to be that 

708
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,120
way. 
But I'd be curious. 

709
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,200
I reckon there's a chance that 
we're being naive at that. 

710
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,360
I reckon there's lots of facts 
to think about. 

711
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:27,800
Like firstly, culture in 
general. 

712
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:33,080
Like is it that the Scandinavian
culture is just richer and 

713
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,880
allows parents to do a lot of 
these things, maybe at home in 

714
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,360
an informal way? 
And the reason that they can 

715
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,880
start at 7 is because they're 
kind of already doing some of 

716
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,920
that grunt work, that grunt work
at the start, and they're 

717
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,520
already exploring with their 
children how to write in things 

718
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,320
and helping them with their 
handwriting just kind of 

719
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:48,760
informally rather than in the 
classroom. 

720
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,480
Like, I don't know, I don't want
to jump to a conclusion 

721
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,800
basically that other countries 
who start formal education a bit

722
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,560
later just because they get the 
same end result. 

723
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,440
It kind of proves this idea 
that, oh, therefore, like, it's 

724
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,480
clearly better just to let kids 
play longer because I just don't

725
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:06,360
know. 
Like, I don't know how many 

726
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,240
other factors are in play there.
Do you think about that? 

727
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,640
I don't think necessarily it 
proves it's better. 

728
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,640
I think it just proves that it's
a different option we can 

729
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,920
explore and it clearly works, 
right? 

730
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,720
It might be better, it might, I 
don't know, right? 

731
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,720
But my gut instinct is that I 
think it's better and I'm happy 

732
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,240
to have someone come. 
I'd love to have someone come on

733
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,560
the podcast from the early years
or who's passionate about play 

734
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,440
to explain why it's better. 
But my gut instinct as a parent 

735
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,200
is that is therefore I'd rather 
go down that route, OK, of doing

736
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,560
it later more formally and 
having more time to play. 

737
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:34,720
And that's for the culture 
thing. 

738
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,680
I I really, really passionately 
believe that it is not down to 

739
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,760
the fact, oh, they're Swedish, 
so they do more of their kids. 

740
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,480
Yeah. 
Oh, we're British, so we do. 

741
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,200
So we do less. 
I think it's inherently down to 

742
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,080
the structures of society. 
OK. 

743
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,400
When you get better paternity, 
pay for the dad who can stay at 

744
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,120
home more with their child and 
support the mum more of their 

745
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,680
maternity pay and get more time 
with your children and more 

746
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,800
support from the state, that is 
going to have a knock on effect 

747
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,320
where you can do more at home 
with your children. 

748
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,960
Whereas in Britain we are 
sliding more and more and more 

749
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,560
down the path of what we've got 
to accept that I'm afraid that 

750
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,600
most houses now are a dual 
income, a household where both 

751
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,040
parents have to go off from work
and yeah, OK, you're going to be

752
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,800
screwed with your childcare. 
Sorry guys. 

753
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,800
Do you know what we'll do? 
We'll make reception writing. 

754
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,880
Really good for you. 
Then I just think to myself, 

755
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,240
it's such a shame that we've 
chosen this path. 

756
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,760
And like you said, I'm not going
to sit here and say this path is

757
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,240
inherently bad, but it's not the
path I want to necessarily go 

758
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,680
down. 
I guess what it opens up is just

759
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,040
the idea that sometimes it's so 
easy to be like, well, the 

760
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,600
government said this is good, 
they've got all the back to 

761
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,720
research for it within the 
constraints of our culture. 

762
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,400
So this is the way to do it. 
And it's like actually, but 

763
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,240
there might just be other ways. 
There might be other ways. 

764
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,560
I think, I think this new 
writing framework on the whole 

765
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,920
to make it really clear, I am 
generally quite positive about 

766
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:47,920
it. 
I think there's probably a few 

767
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,600
things in there that people have
rightfully got gripes about. 

768
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,280
But on the whole, I think this 
is a, it's a really good 

769
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:54,400
document. 
And like you said, I want to 

770
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,280
back this up. 
I think it's a, it's a move in 

771
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,640
the right direction that the 
government are even talking 

772
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,160
about or even taking the time to
gather loads of experts and get 

773
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,440
people together in a room and 
say, hey, should we like at 

774
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,840
least try to address writing and
what we could do? 

775
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,320
And they've come up with a 
solution. 

776
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:09,640
And it is non statutory, like 
you said. 

777
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,600
So, you know, I overall, I love 
moaning, right? 

778
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,840
We all have to moan as well. 
You know, half this podcast is 

779
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,000
us just moan about the things 
that that we all want to talk 

780
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,640
about, right? 
But I do think it's good to 

781
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,440
recognise that there is a 
positive side to this. 

782
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,120
It's not all bad. 
A lot of people in line are just

783
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,520
being like, oh, it's just 
terrible. 

784
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,320
Like anything the government 
released, there are some people 

785
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,680
in a band where it's like 
anything they say is 

786
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,000
automatically by default, the 
worst thing they could ever have

787
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,200
done. 
And actually, if you just take a

788
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,960
second to look at it, there are 
also some really good positives 

789
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,320
from this writing framework as 
well. 

790
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,240
Yeah, I think that's I think 
that's a great, great line to 

791
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,200
kind of finish on and lead into 
our chat with Jane, who who has 

792
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,680
been involved in this, who has 
worked with multiple other 

793
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,080
people who, you know, full 
transparency, she'll say 

794
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,480
herself, she offers writing 
training and it's part of what 

795
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,480
she is an expert. 
She's done it for so long. 

796
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,520
And again, no matter which side 
of the fence you land on, I 

797
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,760
think this chat is really, 
really insightful. 

798
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,480
And actually, I think there are 
two prongs that you can look at 

799
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,520
it here. 
One prong is like we can talk 

800
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,680
about the scientific fact 
research and what's good for 

801
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,440
children's do in terms of 
reading and have these 

802
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,400
discussions about how early they
should should do it, how late 

803
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:08,920
they should do it, why it's 
right, why it's wrong. 

804
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,600
I think the other part of it is 
do you know what? 

805
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,680
There are some amazing people 
out there who are really 

806
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,160
passionate about helping kids 
and when you're at the forefront

807
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,160
of your mind is how can I help 
children more? 

808
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,080
I've immediately got respect for
that person. 

809
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,400
Whether we disagree or agree 
professionally, you'll think 

810
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:24,840
there might be better ways to go
about it. 

811
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,920
That passion, that's the first 
step, isn't it? 

812
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,760
And as professionals, we're 
always going to disagree. 

813
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,840
But I think having those 
discussions with people who have

814
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,200
different views to you, I think 
that's really powerful. 

815
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,800
And I think that's something we 
should do. 

816
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,800
And we shouldn't just say, 
here's the framework, let's just

817
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,520
digest it and that's it. 
That's the end of it. 

818
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,680
No, of course not. 
I think we can do both. 

819
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,240
We can say what the great parts 
of it are. 

820
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,640
We can discuss how we think 
there are some drawbacks as well

821
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,440
and have professional dialogues 
about it. 

822
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,680
And I think what we're going to 
do now, chatting with Jane, is 

823
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,960
talk to someone who's really 
positive about it and hear their

824
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,240
point of view. 
And I think that's invaluable. 

825
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:56,880
Yeah, stay tuned. 
Let's talk with Jane. 

826
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,360
We're here to talk about the 
writing framework. 

827
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,040
Great. 
Thank you for having me and I'm 

828
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,240
here to talk about it. 
So excited. 

829
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,560
Right, let's go. 
Let's dive in because I am 

830
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,560
really interested in this and 
especially your views. 

831
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,440
So let's start off with a 
general question, I suppose. 

832
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,880
What is your overall view of 
this brand new framework? 

833
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,600
What are the big messages? 
OK, I am highly optimistic about

834
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:26,040
this framework, really positive 
because any document that puts 

835
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:32,240
front and centre a chance for us
as teachers and leaders to talk 

836
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,040
about teaching and learning, 
well that is ace. 

837
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:41,720
And it gives us a a sense and 
and you know, to be really clear

838
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,960
about what we want to do next 
around writing. 

839
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,400
I I love it. 
And I think the main message 

840
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:55,280
locked in it is that writing 
needs to be taught, not caught. 

841
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:02,360
And we were given a lovely 
phrase as part of the reading 

842
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:09,080
framework, reading fluency. 
And this opens the door for 

843
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,600
children to be able to 
comprehend words. 

844
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,520
And now it is only right and 
proper that we think about 

845
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:23,159
writing fluency and helping 
children make their own meaning.

846
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,199
Why do you think this shift is 
significant then? 

847
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:27,199
Because you're clearly 
championing it in the just in 

848
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:29,239
the tone of your voice. 
I can tell you really positive 

849
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,679
about all of this. 
And what are the implications 

850
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,560
for the curriculum design if 
this is this is the way forward?

851
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,560
It's it's built on the science 
of learning. 

852
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:44,639
So for us as teachers, when we 
feel like it talks to us, it's 

853
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:47,679
because we care about the 
science of learning. 

854
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:55,360
It was a broad and wide 
collection of specialists and 

855
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,120
experts. 
This is collective 

856
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,720
responsibility that writing 
matters. 

857
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,160
And we're we're all in this 
together. 

858
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,560
It has been transparent. 
And these are people who have 

859
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,520
dedicated their lives to 
literacy and locked in there, 

860
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,640
you know, and it's the opening 
words of the framework. 

861
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:23,800
Writing is notoriously 
difficult, you know? 

862
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:29,840
Yeah, Ronald Kellogg said. 
It's the cognitive equivalent of

863
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,320
digging ditches, you know? 
But it is hard, isn't it? 

864
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:36,480
I think I wanted. 
To draw on the. 

865
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,160
On the point you just made about
all of these people who've 

866
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,600
dedicated their lives to this 
work have come together to put 

867
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,120
something in a document that we 
can, we can kind of at least 

868
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,800
lean towards and read and, and, 
and like you said, talks to us 

869
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,160
about how to teach writing well,
because writing is really hard. 

870
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,200
If I had to as a teacher, tell 
you which part of my job is the 

871
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,960
hardest, I would absolutely, 
without a doubt, without even 

872
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,040
thinking, say, getting children 
to write well. 

873
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,320
And do you think then that this,
this document promoting this 

874
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,800
and, and putting, putting on a 
pedestal, I think and, and the 

875
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,440
government kind of pushing 
reading and writing in general, 

876
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,760
Do you think that this is going 
to cause a shift then in 

877
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,120
education as to how we're 
actually teaching creative 

878
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,720
writing now for the better? 
Absolutely, for the better. 

879
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:28,200
You know, this is not about 
perfection, but it's about, you 

880
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,520
know, our damnedest to put in 
one place the science of 

881
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,480
learning and, and kind of 
opening a conversation about 

882
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,080
kind of a pathway forward. 
You know, I've been working with

883
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:49,440
teachers for 25 years, you know,
and I am an expert in teaching 

884
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:55,760
writing and, and it is hard. 
It is really tricky and it and 

885
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,920
you know, to carry on almost the
analogy of digging ditches, 

886
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:05,960
we've got to remember that if we
can break that hard ground, as 

887
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,560
it were, you know, something 
shifts. 

888
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,640
You know, there's a mind shift. 
And in this document, it talks 

889
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,440
about a writing mindset. 
You know, if you're digging 

890
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,640
ditches, you know, muscles 
build, the tools become familiar

891
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,160
and it at the beginning for our 
little ones, God love them. 

892
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:32,120
You know, it is slow and 
effortful, but down the line, it

893
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,040
becomes rhythmic and fluent. 
And this ditch it, it's we can 

894
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:42,040
create a a channel. 
Ideas can flow and then we're in

895
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:47,160
the realm of shaping something. 
How exciting is that? 

896
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,240
I love it, Jane. 
You're firing me up. 

897
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:50,760
Like I feel like I'm. 
Getting I'm inspired. 

898
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,200
I need to go do some writing. 
He's going to let's go teach 

899
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,040
some writing right now. 
Absolutely. 

900
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,440
But like, you know, you talking 
about the little ones, it really

901
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,200
made me think. 
And I think a lot of emphasis 

902
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,440
has been on the little ones. 
And let's just talk about 

903
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,800
reception for a minute. 
And, and those earlier years, 

904
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,960
the framework sets out quite a 
clear role for a, for reception 

905
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,600
in establishing that writing. 
Like you just said, if you get 

906
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,000
it right from the start, you can
kind of build and build and 

907
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,080
build and build, which is what, 
how, how I feel like you're, 

908
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:16,720
you're kind of approaching this,
right. 

909
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,880
So let's think about the young 
ones. 

910
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:24,120
What, what should great writing 
provision look like in reception

911
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:25,680
classrooms? 
Year 1 classrooms. 

912
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,800
No job it is more important than
working with children in the 

913
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,640
early years. 
You know, we we need, you know, 

914
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,840
not in a negative sense. 
When I say this term enabling 

915
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:44,120
adults, you know, enablers in a 
positive way, engaging, you know

916
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,280
what I mean? 
Engaging experiences and really 

917
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:53,480
effective environments because 
ultimately we want our young 

918
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:59,240
children to in their voice. 
We want them to have agency. 

919
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,840
So they've got choices around 
their ideas, thoughts and 

920
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,720
feelings. 
And believe you me, their their 

921
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:12,600
fragile journey into writing. 
We've got to hold so sort of 

922
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,880
dear. 
It is so precious. 

923
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,240
In fact, we've got to foster a 
love of writing. 

924
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,080
We've got to celebrate their 
writing. 

925
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,480
It's got to be joyful. 
And we know we're living in an 

926
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:30,360
era of word poverty that is 
linked to poverty, but writing 

927
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,840
is playful. 
And, you know, and we want to 

928
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,680
meet them where they're ready. 
We don't want them at tables all

929
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:44,760
day, you know, no way, no way. 
And it is vital that they leave 

930
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:50,120
reception with with a with a 
positive view of themselves as 

931
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:55,120
writers. 
White Broad in 2012, the 

932
00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:00,000
educational psychologist tells 
us you know it is at 5 if 

933
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,560
everything's going tickety Boo 
that you know children have 

934
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,600
increased working memory to hold
an idea in their mind while 

935
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,480
writing. 
Because that's what we're trying

936
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,600
to do. 
I mean, one way to say it, I 

937
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:17,760
know this isn't really 
scientifically accurate, but you

938
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:22,160
know, what's in your mind's eye,
what's your idea? 

939
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,400
What's the pictorial form? 
And writing is like breathing 

940
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:34,160
that out to put in that image on
a page and then, you know, and 

941
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,040
the readings, breathing it in. 
Yeah. 

942
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,360
Yeah, sorry. 
Yeah, I, I love this analogy of 

943
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,720
the the idea of what's in your 
mind and the link between the 

944
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:43,240
reading and the writing. 
The thing that really jumped out

945
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:46,640
of me from this, from this whole
framework, in fact all the way 

946
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,000
through my reception, but 
starting in reception 

947
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,720
particularly, was that linked 
to. 

948
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:54,040
Oral, Oral, oral. 
Speaking, saying sentences out 

949
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,680
loud. 
And I suppose what do you think 

950
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,120
that role will have to be in a 
school from now? 

951
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,840
Because I think teachers do it, 
but I think it's sporadic and I 

952
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,120
think it's kind of sometimes 
we'll try it out or we won't. 

953
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,840
It sounds as if that kind of 
oral work should be centre stage

954
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,400
for everyone and fundamentally 
part of how we teach writing. 

955
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,920
Absolutely. 
You know this, you know, we are 

956
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:23,520
so lucky that Voice 21 was part 
of the contributors for the 

957
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,920
writing framework. 
And we know glinting on the 

958
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,240
horizon, we're going to get a 
new curriculum and we also know 

959
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,800
a beating heart of that. 
It's going to be oracy good, 

960
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,280
absolutely. 
And talk needs to be elevated 

961
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,680
and we've got to amplify, 
especially in reception, you 

962
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,000
know, their little mutterings, 
their little moments, their odd 

963
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,560
phrases. 
And then we need to grow it and 

964
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:54,520
build it and this other 
recognition that, hey, you know,

965
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,000
this is hard for children. 
Talk isn't just, you know, 

966
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,000
you're chatting to your friends 
and you can lob it on a page. 

967
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,880
Yeah, we can if we're writing 
dialogue. 

968
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:13,120
But actually, you know, writing 
has has a formality, has 

969
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,160
cognitive structures, and it is 
different from talk. 

970
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:23,480
And so we've got to help them 
talk in a way that gets them 

971
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:31,840
close and very accurately close 
to building sentences, you know,

972
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,840
and they need help with that. 
And, and we need to not 

973
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:41,080
sporadically, but model that in 
a, in a, in such a, a clear way.

974
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,240
And actually, it's just not me 
doing that. 

975
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:48,240
That's, that's Mrs Gibb, you 
know, in my room and we're 

976
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,360
always there. 
And I do want to just do a shout

977
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,880
out to my favourite film on the 
Education Endowment Foundation. 

978
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:00,440
You know, there's lots of 
guidance there, lots of mini 

979
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:05,000
moments, you know, when we can 
watch teachers in action, you 

980
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,800
know, practically watch it and 
diagnose it. 

981
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,640
This is this is where we become 
experts and and sharpen our 

982
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,800
expertise. 
And there's a film on there that

983
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:22,280
analysis talk in the early years
where we watch these talking 

984
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:28,600
moments and we see really 
skilled teachers locking in with

985
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,280
children. 
You know, the eye contact is 

986
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,320
just right. 
They're giving them space for 

987
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,520
their words and amplifying them,
repeating them, adding a little 

988
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,520
bit more, you know, talking 
tennis, talking tennis and 

989
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,520
growing it. 
And I Oh yeah, go and look at 

990
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,200
films, you know? 
But that's what I don't know 

991
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:49,880
about anyone else listening 
right now. 

992
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,000
As a teacher, I fundamentally 
found every single thing that I 

993
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,640
picked up from my practise that 
was good was actually mostly 

994
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,800
from seeing the really good 
teachers actually do it. 

995
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,560
And I suppose we're going to 
talk about modelling I think a 

996
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,400
little bit in a minute, but I 
think what links nicely to what 

997
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,920
we're talking about now in terms
of oracy and then that link to 

998
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,240
writing, I do think that links 
nicely with dictation and what 

999
00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:14,240
dictation might look like in the
classroom. 

1000
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:16,760
It's mentioned throughout the 
framework as a core practise. 

1001
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:18,320
What? 
What then? 

1002
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,600
For someone listening now, 
thinking, OK, cool, I want to 

1003
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:21,840
implement this, I want to do 
this. 

1004
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,600
It's embedded in the science of 
writing. 

1005
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,240
I think it's been really good 
for my children. 

1006
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,360
What do you think makes 
dictation effective? 

1007
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,240
And most importantly, I think, 
what does it actually look like 

1008
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,320
in a classroom? 
What does dictation in an 

1009
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,040
English lesson, a writing 
lesson, actually look like? 

1010
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,240
And how does it affect a child's
writing in a positive way? 

1011
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:45,320
This is an Ave that we can 
become more expert in actually. 

1012
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,520
And the first thing I want to 
say about dictation is I don't 

1013
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,400
want it to kind of overtake 
everything we do with writing. 

1014
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:58,440
You know, I don't think it's 
like the, the, the main thing, 

1015
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:03,240
it's kind of part of a 
repertoire of things we might 

1016
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:06,920
use deploy as it were, to 
activate their thinking. 

1017
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,680
Because of course, the main 
thing we want to do is get them 

1018
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,600
inspired, you know, and then 
because they're inspired, 

1019
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,600
because there's been this 
concentrated, rich, yielding 

1020
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,840
space to develop ideas, you 
know, music, drama, watching 

1021
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,960
films, photographs, books, 
interviewing people, you name 

1022
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,240
it, you know, we are excited to 
write. 

1023
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:35,240
We've got reason to write. 
Then it's that intersplicing of 

1024
00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:39,480
dictation. 
And one of the ways I like to 

1025
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,920
think about it is taking the 
kind of cognitive load off 

1026
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,520
children so they can, they're, 
they're not at a particular 

1027
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,600
moment worrying about a specific
idea. 

1028
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,080
We can say, look, just 
concentrate on your 

1029
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,440
transcription. 
You know, I want you to at this 

1030
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,160
little moment, you know, and we 
can make the focus different 

1031
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,240
things. 
Or if they're a bit older, we 

1032
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:05,080
could put them together. 
At this little moment, I want 

1033
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,600
you to concentrate on your 
handwriting or, or your spelling

1034
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:15,080
or both. 
One of the little sort of 

1035
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:21,720
dictation devices I like to use 
is it's called brave spelling. 

1036
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:26,200
So we're in a writing moment. 
We've been really excited about 

1037
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,520
setting this scene. 
And this scene has got a moon 

1038
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,800
and we've, we've got our ideas, 
you know, flowing. 

1039
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:41,360
But now I might say to the 
children, right, we're going to 

1040
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:48,200
just have a go, almost like in 
context to bravely spell 3 words

1041
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,320
with the same pattern. 
And we know spelling is tricky 

1042
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:57,080
when there is a double consonant
and all these words mean big. 

1043
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:02,400
We're going to have a big moon. 
And then we just gently put a 

1044
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,720
little bit of sort of, you know,
do you remember these words? 

1045
00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:10,200
We met last week, bit of 
interleaf practise. 

1046
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,960
You might have forgotten them, 
but they're coming back, you 

1047
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:20,400
know, Colossal, it's got a 
double consonant. 

1048
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,320
What is have a go. 
We met it before. 

1049
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,440
Massive. 
It's got a double consonant, you

1050
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,720
know, mammoth. 
So there's these little moments 

1051
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:35,040
where we want them to just, it's
not about them generating those 

1052
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,840
ideas. 
They're having a go, you know, 

1053
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,600
add a add a bit of a tricky 
word, but it's a chance for them

1054
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:48,920
to work on their transcription. 
I really like the whole idea of 

1055
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,400
brave spelling. 
I love that concept. 

1056
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,560
And I think we need more of that
in teaching. 

1057
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,440
And like you said earlier, we 
need really, really strong 

1058
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,560
teachers at those early years. 
Because you're, you're kind of 

1059
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,000
highlighting how, I mean, I'm 
both inspired and thinking, my 

1060
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,400
God, it's such a tough job. 
It's so hard being at the 

1061
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,760
beginning of that journey, like 
thinking of reception, having 

1062
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,400
all of these ideas up your 
sleeve and being able to teach 

1063
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,440
writing so well. 
Now you mentioned spelling and 

1064
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,080
you also mentioned handwriting 
and I think we wouldn't be doing

1065
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,240
this conversation justice if we 
didn't talk about this, right? 

1066
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:20,840
Because it's one of it's one of 
the gripes that we've seen 

1067
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:22,360
online. 
You know, with there's always 

1068
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,440
going to be gripes with anything
that comes out that's new, 

1069
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:25,640
right? 
But one of the biggest things 

1070
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,760
was about handwriting and saying
how can we get this right? 

1071
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,920
Because the framework is 
recommending that we should be 

1072
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,400
teaching formal handwriting and 
phonics based spelling from the 

1073
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,320
very get go at the start of 
reception. 

1074
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,680
So how do we get this right then
for children who develop fine 

1075
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,960
motor skills at different rates?
Because we know that exists? 

1076
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:48,400
Is it too early? 
It's all about readiness. 

1077
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:54,280
It's all about are they ready 
for this and, and us as teachers

1078
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,720
being able to really tune into 
the uniqueness of individual 

1079
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:00,760
children and what they need 
next. 

1080
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:06,040
I am going to push back a bit on
that word you kind of casually 

1081
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:13,320
slipped in, which is formal. 
You know, it's not about formal.

1082
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:20,920
It's about knowing the 
sequential incremental things 

1083
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,560
that children need next. 
Because if they've got a smooth 

1084
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:29,680
and efficient handwriting style,
then it can free cognitive 

1085
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:34,920
space, you know, that is 
absolutely critical. 

1086
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,040
And you know, when they've got 
their excited ideas about 

1087
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,920
dinosaurs or Sonic the Hedgehog 
or fork knife or, you know, 

1088
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,760
spray juice. 
Not everyone gets that joke. 

1089
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:50,480
I got it, Yeah. 
I've. 

1090
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:51,920
I've got young enough brain to 
actually. 

1091
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:53,120
Get that stuff. 
Yeah. 

1092
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,240
Says more about me, Jane, I 
think. 

1093
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:05,960
You know, if handwriting is 
slow, it can and it can't keep 

1094
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:11,400
up with their thoughts and ideas
and they forget them before they

1095
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,080
put them on paper. 
This can really hurt their self 

1096
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,360
esteem. 
So we're always making a 

1097
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:22,200
judgement to know, you know, 
almost like there's there's a 

1098
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,640
continuum, isn't there? 
You know, there are 9 stages of 

1099
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,160
emergent writing. 
And as a teacher, I know we 

1100
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,800
start with sort of drawing and 
then we move into, you know, 

1101
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,720
like just Marx in general. 
And then we move into scribbling

1102
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:41,600
and then we move into like 
almost showing little lumps of 

1103
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,120
scribbles that show there's they
can, they can conceptually 

1104
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,680
understand finger spaces. 
And then we start seeing, you 

1105
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:53,280
know, mimicking of letters ish, 
you know, and but we get this 

1106
00:50:53,280 --> 00:51:00,240
line so that we know when is the
timely moment to step in and go.

1107
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:06,760
I think you're ready for this 
letter, the letter B and I've 

1108
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:12,480
got handwriting patters. 
I'm ready, you know, start at 

1109
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:17,520
the top, go down slow halfway up
round you go. 

1110
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:22,200
Don't tell me there is a kids in
Year 5 and 6 who were doing B&D 

1111
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,040
reverse. 
I can tell you now, Jane, there 

1112
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,880
are because I've I've I've 
worked with them. 

1113
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,920
But I think just jumping on what
you're saying, there's one thing

1114
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:34,600
I wanted to say as a statement 
that I think your proof that 

1115
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,320
this kind of positive, yes, 
let's go and get it, let's make 

1116
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,880
it amazing, can really inspire 
children. 

1117
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,120
And of course, that's one part 
of it. 

1118
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:44,440
This framework's full of 
science. 

1119
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,440
You know, you've clearly got 
lots of techniques that you've 

1120
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,480
learned over the years that 
really embedded in children 

1121
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:50,960
making progress. 
But it does feel like hand in 

1122
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,320
hand with that and with a 
framework like this and with 

1123
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,520
anything really that we as 
teachers see as good practise. 

1124
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,960
It does have to come hand in 
hand with professionals who are 

1125
00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:03,040
putting themselves out there and
and putting on that show and 

1126
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,680
inspiring children. 
Because to me, when I think 

1127
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,760
about my background in maths and
leading maths, that's the one 

1128
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,880
thing I feel like I want my 
staff to have more than anything

1129
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,840
is you need to love maths. 
You need to want to do maths 

1130
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,000
with the children. 
And when it comes to writing, 

1131
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,040
yeah, it's really hard. 
And you, we've just broken down 

1132
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,040
5 different parts of writing. 
Handwriting's one thing, phonics

1133
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:25,720
is another thing. 
Reading is linked to writing. 

1134
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,360
It's so huge. 
But you have to go into the 

1135
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,960
classroom and be the person to 
inspire them at the front as 

1136
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,440
well. 
In AL's words, he, he talks 

1137
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,040
about, you know, and this isn't 
just about reception. 

1138
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,200
This is about perception and 
beyond, you know, we need to 

1139
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:47,520
nurture them and welcome them 
into a language community and 

1140
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:52,000
they need to feel part of this 
sort of this collective 

1141
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:58,600
belonging about that writing 
matters, that it cements our 

1142
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:06,240
ideas in our long term memory. 
And our job is to motivate you 

1143
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:12,000
because but actually motivation 
is born from success. 

1144
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:15,640
So my job is to make you 
succeed. 

1145
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:21,360
And I know the progression. 
My my curriculum is designed in 

1146
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:26,360
such a way that, you know, the 
smaller it gets, the more 

1147
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:31,360
granular it gets. 
Then I know in a timely way what

1148
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:36,280
what children need Nets to make 
writing smooth and efficient so 

1149
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,960
that you can get to the joy. 
Hayden was going to talk a 

1150
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,560
little bit about sentence level 
stuff because we've we've done a

1151
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,960
lot of work sentence level in 
our schools recently. 

1152
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,320
Well, the big thing for me is, 
is you said the word joy, right?

1153
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,600
And it really got me thinking 
about my next question. 

1154
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:54,040
But is there you, you sort of 
flitted around this idea that, 

1155
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:55,480
yeah, we'll get to the joy, 
right? 

1156
00:53:56,080 --> 00:54:00,800
Is there the the potential that 
with more of a focus on making 

1157
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,800
sure those foundations and that 
and that sentence level and that

1158
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,560
vocabulary, all of that work. 
Is there is there a chance that 

1159
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,040
teaching could become a bit more
dry, or a bit more, or a bit too

1160
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,520
mechanical? 
Yeah, I mean, there, there's a 

1161
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:20,840
lot to say about this, you know,
children being good writers, 

1162
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,760
children being able to write 
well, you know, this is not dry.

1163
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,240
There's a couple of things we 
need to consider. 

1164
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:37,320
You know, knowledge. 
Knowledge makes for better 

1165
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:38,400
writing. 
Yeah. 

1166
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:44,840
And if they're trying to write 
with thin knowledge, that is 

1167
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,160
also sort of interlinked with 
the. 

1168
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,840
So I suppose the dryness, if 
they haven't got a enough. 

1169
00:54:52,480 --> 00:55:00,520
So part of that is whenever they
write, whether that's the mess, 

1170
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,320
the beautiful emergent, the 
beginnings of the starting to 

1171
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,680
find their voice, the more 
complicated extensive writing. 

1172
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:14,360
Wherever we are on that 
continuum, they need to know the

1173
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:19,720
world of their writing and that 
deep knowing, you know, hey, 

1174
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,320
we've not come into this 
profession to be dry. 

1175
00:55:23,720 --> 00:55:26,880
This is where we have we. 
We're not we. 

1176
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:28,560
No, not at all. 
Yeah. 

1177
00:55:28,720 --> 00:55:33,200
Whoa. 
We we are all creative souls and

1178
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:39,920
this is drama, music, film, This
is experiences, real and 

1179
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,640
imagined. 
It's books, it's oracy. 

1180
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:49,800
And when we come to the teaching
of writing, it is about 

1181
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:55,320
cognitive overload, that they 
need a deep knowing, but they 

1182
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,920
can't be overwhelmed. 
And This is why our work needs 

1183
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:02,560
to be at the mastery of 
sentences. 

1184
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,880
And and it's it's mastery, not 
mystery. 

1185
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,560
You know, writing is a highly 
creative process. 

1186
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,680
And the writing framework. 
I love these three little words 

1187
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,040
it, you know, go and find it go 
and find the gems. 

1188
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:21,760
Actually, that's what I'm doing.
I've got me glittering girl 

1189
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:26,120
Sharpie highlighting the gems to
be found in there. 

1190
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:33,280
But the three words it's these 
paint with words. 

1191
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:39,080
You know, the most creative 
painters first learn how to 

1192
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:43,760
paint. 
And creativity comes from 

1193
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,200
mastering these cognitive 
structures. 

1194
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:48,960
You know, the art of words is 
freedom. 

1195
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:55,200
And for 25 years I've been 
talking about taking off the 

1196
00:56:55,200 --> 00:57:01,880
cognitive load, locking in what 
you're trying to locking in in 

1197
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,680
your mind's eye what you're 
trying to get on the page. 

1198
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,440
They have got with we're living 
the screen age. 

1199
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,760
We have got their digital lives,
their frenetic lives, their 

1200
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,640
fast-paced lives. 
New research is coming at us 

1201
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,960
like a tsunami about their 
grasshopper mines. 

1202
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:25,480
And we need to lock it in. 
We need to slow it down. 

1203
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:30,800
And we know top of the science 
of learning charts is 

1204
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:35,240
metacognition. 
So we are going to really 

1205
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,240
sharpen their thinking for 
writing. 

1206
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,680
This is the progression 
exemplified. 

1207
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:46,240
It's the structures. 
You know, there are words 

1208
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,800
scattered all around us and we 
need to assemble them. 

1209
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:54,320
We need to assemble them 
sentence by sentence until our 

1210
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:58,160
writing takes shape. 
And why a sentence? 

1211
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:02,280
We graft there as a teacher. 
We help their thinking there 

1212
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:07,000
because that is about just 
enough for them to hold in their

1213
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,560
little brains, you know? 
And that is why it's been so 

1214
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:15,720
powerful that you know, it is 
experts in the science of 

1215
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,440
learning. 
It is teachers, it is leaders 

1216
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:25,680
who care about literacy because 
we need to help children know 

1217
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,760
what to write, because sentences
where meaning is yielded. 

1218
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,800
Because once we know what a 
sentence is, we can break the 

1219
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,160
rules and then we can write 
poetry in plays. 

1220
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:41,480
You've got to know it to play 
with it, you know, and, and 

1221
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,560
knowing the pathway and, and 
This is why I want to have a big

1222
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:49,640
shout out to the appendices. 
You know, people are going on 

1223
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:54,440
about the the document, the 
words, but in the back, anything

1224
00:58:54,440 --> 00:59:01,240
that is practical is kind of 
helps us think about incremental

1225
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,000
things that children need next 
and need next and need next, 

1226
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,720
kind of feeding into our 
responsive teaching. 

1227
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:12,720
Anything that we can lift off 
and push straight into the 

1228
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:16,800
classroom, you know, makes us 
better teachers. 

1229
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:20,600
This pathway makes us better. 
So I am going to push back on 

1230
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:22,720
dry. 
We're not going to bore them. 

1231
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:24,840
We certainly don't want to 
demotivate them. 

1232
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,080
We don't want anything that's 
going to hinder learning. 

1233
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,120
And we are going to in our 
curriculum culture, full 

1234
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,280
writing. 
We're going to get the wonder of

1235
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:39,600
words woven into all of our 
work, and so that we can take 

1236
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:44,640
them to wondrous worlds beyond 
their limited borders of 

1237
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:51,200
experience, so they can now see 
what previously was unseen to 

1238
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,560
them. 
That is our job. 

1239
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:59,280
We need to help them see the 
beauty of writing. 

1240
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:02,720
I I couldn't agree more. 
I think it's unsurprising that 

1241
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,000
when you really think about it 
logically, the science of 

1242
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,480
learning and writing isn't 
really that different to the 

1243
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:09,840
science of learning anything 
else, is it? 

1244
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:11,600
When we think about maths, you 
know, we put maths the whole 

1245
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:13,240
time. 
It's just, you know what? 

1246
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:16,440
I, I would never go into a 
school and say, right here's 

1247
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:18,040
where you start. 
There's a bunch of reasoning and

1248
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:19,840
problem solving on stuff they 
haven't done yet. 

1249
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,520
Obviously I wouldn't do that. 
We need the fluency and the 

1250
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,280
fluency needs to be taught 
regularly and really well. 

1251
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:27,800
And do you know what? 
Here is where I'm going to go 

1252
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:29,240
back. 
I agree, by the way, about the 

1253
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:30,840
dryness that you've really made 
me reflect on it. 

1254
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:32,840
Right here's where I think it 
actually lies for me. 

1255
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:37,120
I could teach a mass fluency 
arithmetic lesson really in a 

1256
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,960
really boring way. 
I could also teach the same mass

1257
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,080
fluency lesson for arithmetic in
a really fun, inspiring way. 

1258
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:45,880
And I, and I think it may be it 
boils down, maybe this dryness 

1259
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:50,320
boils down to an expectation 
that or, or a preconception that

1260
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,800
that teaching at centres level 
work is automatically boring. 

1261
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,520
And I can tell you from my 
experience as a teacher over the

1262
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,240
years, I've taught writing in 
loads of different ways through 

1263
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,240
various schools. 
And I'd say my spectrum goes all

1264
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:06,720
the way from as many lessons as 
possible, really kind of 

1265
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,480
repetitive, genuinely quite dry 
grammar and punctuation tasks 

1266
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:11,760
that don't have much link to 
writing. 

1267
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:13,600
It's just this is a grammar 
objective. 

1268
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:15,880
So you've just got to teach this
And just think of a task where 

1269
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,280
they can write it down as many 
times as possible in the same 

1270
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,600
way in their book. 
So they start remembering it all

1271
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:25,000
the way to policies where we've 
basically said, let's, let's, 

1272
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:28,320
let's not teach stand alone 
grammar and punctuation as much 

1273
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,400
as humanly possible and 
integrate it within like fun 

1274
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,280
little paragraphs and pieces of 
writing and creative writing as 

1275
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:37,000
much as possible. 
So I've seen that whole spectrum

1276
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,280
and, and I kind of just want to,
I think I want to summarise, I 

1277
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,480
want you to summarise your 
thoughts now as to where you 

1278
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,160
feel like generally we should be
on that spectrum when we're 

1279
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,360
teaching writing. 
For me, I've been working for 

1280
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:55,320
donkeys years with schools 
around learning chunks and in a 

1281
01:01:55,360 --> 01:02:01,600
chunk for writing. 
We are going to foster with 

1282
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:06,840
children thesaurus thinking and 
and that's not just about one 

1283
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,040
word. 
This is, you know, chunks of 

1284
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:12,920
language, what we might need, we
might need words, we might need 

1285
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:17,040
phrases, we might need clauses, 
we might need photographs. 

1286
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,960
You know, we, we need stuff for 
writing, you know, we want to 

1287
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,720
initiate the thinking for 
writing. 

1288
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:30,360
Well, and it's it's a bit, it's 
a bit Fat Boy slimness, but it's

1289
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:34,760
right here, right. 
I can feel that coming. 

1290
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,440
If I don't have some music, I 
believe with that on. 

1291
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:47,640
Yeah, yeah. 
Yeah, we're doing, we're doing 

1292
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:49,360
songs, kids. 
So let's break down that right. 

1293
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:52,960
Yeah. 
I mean it's. 

1294
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:59,360
Getting that language there so 
that when we are, and I'm going 

1295
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:01,400
to, I do really want to talk 
about modelling. 

1296
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:07,480
But when we are modelling, they 
have a shared insight with us. 

1297
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,560
You know, it's not about you 
being amazing. 

1298
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:14,960
Obviously we are amazing as 
teachers, we are amazing. 

1299
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:18,800
But it's, it's about, it's not 
about the performance of 

1300
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:23,440
modelling. 
Our oral duty when modelling is 

1301
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:30,680
as I am helping children see 
actually three things at once. 

1302
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:34,960
What is my locked in image? 
What is my for writing? 

1303
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:39,240
They are seeing the words come 
on the page live with a pen in 

1304
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,520
my hand. 
Whether that's electronic on a 

1305
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:43,680
visualizer or an iPad Cat, it 
doesn't matter. 

1306
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:46,320
A bit of paper, who cares? 
That's live. 

1307
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:50,240
But then there's this 
articulation, this articulation.

1308
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:56,440
But when they're seeing those 3 
layers of of watching a model 

1309
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:01,120
being produced, they when I talk
about C, we had that word 

1310
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:06,040
earlier, they see as in have 
insight with me of all the 

1311
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:08,080
options. 
That's your job, isn't it? 

1312
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:10,560
Get them to see it. 
Exactly. 

1313
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,160
Yeah, I completely agree, Jane. 
I think I think modelling is 

1314
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:15,440
really important. 
It's something we've pushed a 

1315
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:17,440
lot. 
Again, just I'm talking 

1316
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:19,760
personally in our schools and 
we've seen how effective it can 

1317
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,960
be. 
And I suppose just to, to, to 

1318
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:26,080
wrap this up, I guess in, in a 
nice package for, for leaders 

1319
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,160
who listen for, for teaching 
staff for this and, and want to 

1320
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,320
go away and say, have you seen 
the framework and, and someone 

1321
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:32,680
says, no, I've not seen it. 
You're like, what? 

1322
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:35,960
You need to see this, how, what,
what do you think? 

1323
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:37,800
Now? 
Then are the next steps? 

1324
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,520
What's the role of an English 
subject lead out there or school

1325
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:45,880
leadership in general to bring 
this framework to life? 

1326
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:47,640
Now what? 
What's the next step come 

1327
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,640
September? 
What can they do in schools to 

1328
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:54,080
actively improve writing through
this framework? 

1329
01:04:54,480 --> 01:05:01,240
Number one, top of the charts, 
modelling and us thinking about 

1330
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:07,040
modelling never ever stops. 
Modelling is teaching, Modelling

1331
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:12,280
is fundamental and this reveal 
in real time, we've got to get 

1332
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:15,080
so good at that. 
We can't do that on the fly. 

1333
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:18,680
We've got a plan for that. 
We've got a plan the 

1334
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:20,960
misunderstandings. 
We've got to predict what the 

1335
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:23,840
problems are. 
It's not about us writing in an 

1336
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,560
adult way. 
We're doing deliberate mistakes 

1337
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,240
because it's their problems 
we're feeding them in. 

1338
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:32,440
We're doing full starts 
revisions, and we are 

1339
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,080
illuminating the world of the 
expert thinker. 

1340
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:38,360
Because you know what? 
We are great. 

1341
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:43,080
We are experts. 
And when we nurse our Ects into 

1342
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:47,440
our school, it is our job to 
pass on that expertise. 

1343
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,680
Modelling. 
It's not PowerPoint paralysis. 

1344
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:55,000
It is showing the invisible, 
which is thinking. 

1345
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:58,400
We want them to notice it. 
We are articulating, we're 

1346
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:02,640
explaining, we're illuminating a
window to our mind. 

1347
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:04,680
This is where we're unpacking 
things. 

1348
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:10,320
We are thinking out loud. 
This is all of the meta 

1349
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:14,480
linguistic talk. 
We need to be authoritative 

1350
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:20,880
because we know they need this. 
Next, it is strong, dynamic, 

1351
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:26,200
whole class teaching and we are 
constantly doing without 

1352
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:28,640
confusing them. 
The drop down menu. 

1353
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:31,840
It could be this, it could be 
this, it could be this. 

1354
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:35,760
Anything that is closed 
procedure is narrowing. 

1355
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:40,920
This is an open running up of 
your thinking and your hard 

1356
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,680
thinking. 
But you know, what do you know 

1357
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:48,000
for leaders? 
Oh, my goodness, you might be 

1358
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:50,440
tired. 
You might be tired. 

1359
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:56,560
What? 
You might. 

1360
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:59,720
I've become hysterical. 
This, You know when you start 

1361
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:01,360
crying and you don't even know 
why you're crying. 

1362
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:02,720
What's happened to me this? 
Morning. 

1363
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:08,840
Yeah, but I'll tell. 
You, this, now leaders have to 

1364
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:15,360
animate this framework. 
You know, these words, these are

1365
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:18,160
words, aren't they in the 
framework for us? 

1366
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:25,640
But we've got to lift them off 
the page and we have to enable 

1367
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:28,120
children to have their words in 
their books. 

1368
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:30,600
It is not dry. 
It is not formal. 

1369
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:35,720
It is our role to make it rich, 
enticing, and I'm going to say 

1370
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:39,520
forensic and purposeful. 
We can't rush. 

1371
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:43,160
We, we can't rush. 
This isn't like I'm, I'm talking

1372
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:49,840
in a very urgent way because I 
am urgently excited about it. 

1373
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:54,560
But believe you me, this is 
going to percolate in my mind 

1374
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:59,960
for a long time, as it should 
for all leaders of schools and 

1375
01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:03,360
writing. 
I mean, we must cogitate over it

1376
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:08,840
and we must lean into it. 
I don't think I want to have 

1377
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:13,240
conversations with people who 
haven't read it or know how much

1378
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:17,800
it's rooted in the science of 
learning And good leaders will 

1379
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:23,520
will bridge will bridge that non
statutory guidance, but actually

1380
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:28,720
be hopeful about it and and 
bridge it over into good 

1381
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:32,120
writing. 
We need to prioritise staff 

1382
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:35,840
training because there is so 
much to talk about to improve 

1383
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:41,160
our practise. 
We've got to model a belief in 

1384
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:45,080
the importance of sentenced 
nurse because anything that gets

1385
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:48,560
too big, we are in the realm of 
cognitive overload. 

1386
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:52,120
But sentences can come in 
quickly and they can breathe 

1387
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:56,359
into paragraphs. 
We've got to protect time for 

1388
01:08:56,359 --> 01:09:02,399
oral composition, high quality 
editing and feedback on what is 

1389
01:09:02,399 --> 01:09:05,479
that in all its forms and lead 
us. 

1390
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:09,080
Oh my goodness, no matter how 
tough it gets, we know this. 

1391
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:15,040
We've got to stay close to the 
classroom practise so that we 

1392
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:19,680
are seeing, we are seeing and 
know the next steps. 

1393
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:26,000
So I do think this begins the 
conversation of clarity around 

1394
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:29,000
writing. 
Hey, and you know, there are 

1395
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:35,200
things that could be said 
differently or the nuance could 

1396
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:39,040
have a different lens, but I 
think anything that starts the 

1397
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:43,160
conversation is really powerful.
And if you're if you're in a 

1398
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,080
right stuff school, you'll be 
doing a lot of this already. 

1399
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:51,560
But lead us, set the tempo. 
And if we, this is my last point

1400
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:54,920
I'm going to make. 
If we value quality over 

1401
01:09:54,920 --> 01:10:04,320
quantity and purpose over 
performance pressure, then this 

1402
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:06,720
this document is for you. 
Brilliant. 

1403
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:08,920
Thank you so much, Jane. 
I must admit, just from a 

1404
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,760
personal level, as someone who 
looks at this framework, maybe I

1405
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:14,280
fell into the bandwagon a bit 
and I was a bit impartial. 

1406
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:16,400
I was like, oh, I don't know, it
seems all right, but I don't 

1407
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:17,360
know. 
This is, I've been doing lots of

1408
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:19,120
this stuff already. 
Some of this stuff I don't know 

1409
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:21,200
about, but hearing a 
professional speak about it and 

1410
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:24,320
someone you know is in in the 
writing world as you, which I 

1411
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:26,600
don't think many people are much
more in the writing world than 

1412
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:27,920
you, right? 
I'm passionate. 

1413
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:31,160
I'm passionate about it. 
I do really feel more optimistic

1414
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:33,000
about it now. 
And I'm actually very glad we 

1415
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:34,880
had this conversation because I 
definitely would have slipped 

1416
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:37,840
into the to the hype online of 
oh, well, yeah, there's some of 

1417
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:39,320
these things I don't like that 
and I don't do this. 

1418
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:41,320
And no, this is dry. 
And then, you know, you 

1419
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:43,880
challenge that idea of dryness 
really well to the point where I

1420
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:46,720
genuinely completely disagree 
now, whereas before I was a bit 

1421
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:48,440
like, oh, maybe it could be a 
bit dry. 

1422
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:50,600
So yeah, I. 
Appreciate what is dryness? 

1423
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,400
Honestly, it's down to the it's 
down to us as well as stuff like

1424
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:55,360
you think the math thing's 
perfect. 

1425
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,800
How, how actually boring is it 
teaching children repeatedly to 

1426
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:02,000
add 3 past 10? 
Like, let's be honest, OK, it's 

1427
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,120
as boring as you make it, but 
you can make it fun. 

1428
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:07,120
You can make it interesting. 
And ultimately when you want to 

1429
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,120
get the children writing you, if
you all know it's difficult and 

1430
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,440
hard and long term, like you 
said, the thing I want to see is

1431
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,840
leaders in schools not falling 
into the trap of new guidance 

1432
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:18,160
right tomorrow. 
It needs to be perfect. 

1433
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:20,240
I'm gonna change everything. 
It's not going to happen. 

1434
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:22,440
You're going to do it badly if 
you do it quickly. 

1435
01:11:22,440 --> 01:11:27,720
So go slowly, Train your staff, 
implement almost that passion 

1436
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,360
and that writing culture. 
You can't implement a culture in

1437
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:32,080
two days. 
No, you cannot do that. 

1438
01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:34,040
Like you said, it's this is the 
beginning, right? 

1439
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:36,280
And I will just say for our 
listeners that that maybe we 

1440
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:39,880
have a lot of ECT listeners. 
It took me genuinely my whole 

1441
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:44,200
career, 10 years to even 
properly get my head around what

1442
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:47,200
actual good modelling was. 
It's not something I learned at 

1443
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:48,760
the beginning of my career. 
It's not something I even 

1444
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:51,040
learned in mid career. 
I was told to do it all the way 

1445
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:52,920
through. 
Each got a model, but I never 

1446
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:54,600
really understood it. 
And the one thing I would say, 

1447
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:56,560
if you're listening, think I 
want I want to action just one 

1448
01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:58,920
thing in my school. 
I'm just very much reiterating 

1449
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:01,400
what Jane has just said. 
Get some training in with 

1450
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,200
modelling a proper training. 
Don't just let your head teacher

1451
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:06,280
say, I've read the framework and
it definitely says we should 

1452
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:08,040
model more. 
So everybody model more because 

1453
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:10,840
it doesn't work. 
I spent nine years of my career 

1454
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:13,200
being told to model more and not
really understanding what it 

1455
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:14,520
was. 
And I had one really good 

1456
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:17,560
training and it completely 
transformed my perception of 

1457
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:20,240
what actual modelling was. 
And like you said, it does need 

1458
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:21,680
to be planned. 
It's not just going up to the 

1459
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:24,280
board and just, you know, on a 
whim doing a couple of sentences

1460
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:26,240
and getting them to tell you 
everything to write it it. 

1461
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:28,880
So different so. 
Yeah, really reiterating that 

1462
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:31,440
point, Get some modelling 
training booked in for sure. 

1463
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:34,360
Yeah, Jane. 
And hey, I love, I love training

1464
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:37,440
on modelling, you know, so you 
know, I'm. 

1465
01:12:37,480 --> 01:12:42,480
Inviting someone here. 
Yeah, hey, I've loved, you know,

1466
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:46,680
and I and actually we keep 
learning in life, don't we, all 

1467
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:50,960
the time about how we can make 
it more expert for our children.

1468
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:55,960
You know, I am so delighted that
you've given me a chance to 

1469
01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:59,000
share out about the gems in 
here. 

1470
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:03,960
It's an exciting time and 
actually a big message as well. 

1471
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:07,760
You know, it's not revolution, 
it's not babies out with bath 

1472
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:11,640
waters. 
It's evolution and it's really, 

1473
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:16,320
it's refining and sharpening. 
You know what? 

1474
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:21,320
What do we want to interrogate 
and make a little bit better and

1475
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:23,880
then really better and great and
then brilliant. 

1476
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:25,520
Let's do it. 
It's exciting. 

1477
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:30,360
Jane, thank you so much. 
We hope you enjoyed that chat 

1478
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:33,040
all about the brand new writing 
framework and more importantly, 

1479
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:35,040
we would love to hear your 
opinion on it. 

1480
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:37,640
So get in touch with us at Teach
Sleep Repeat podcast on 

1481
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:41,240
Instagram, at Teach Sleep Repeat
Podcast on TikTok, or send us an

1482
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,800
e-mail 
teachsleeprepeatpod@gmail.com. 

1483
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:47,360
But most importantly, leave us a
review if you enjoyed it helps 

1484
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:48,840
us out massively, helps our 
reach. 

1485
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:51,680
Share the podcast, give us five 
stars, and we'll catch you again

1486
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:52,120
next time.