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Hello everyone. 
Welcome back to the next 

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installment of teach sleep. 
Repeat, my name is Dylan and my 

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name is Hayden and you could 
tell by our wide Smiles that 

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we've just had an amazing 
recording for this episode with 

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another guest. 
You know, it is, you've seen the

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title we're going to get into it
really, really quickly. 

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But Hayden, I'm going to do some
plugging, okay? 

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You don't mean to do it. 
No, because you don't never 

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remember correctly. 
When you have to, when you have 

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explained already joke. 
Is it really works? 

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Well, does it? 
But anyway, I'm going to work. 

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Just now plug some of our social
media. 

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Test my memory because there's a
different one but every single 

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platform Iran. 
So on the spot you can find us 

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on Instagram. 
I know you can find us on 

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Instagram at teach sleep, repeat
podcast. 

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You can email us or email us on 
our Gmail at you sleep, repeat 

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POD at gmail.com and we are now 
on Twitter come and find us. 

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It's me you to eat. 
Hey, that's got his own one. 

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He's too busy running that 
personal account, you can find 

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us at TH s our podcast on 
Twitter. 

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Now, am I positive? 
That's the actual name. 

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No. 
But if it's made the cut, then 

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it is so Make sure you find us 
there and that's the problem. 

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Having seven different names for
the different things anyway, 

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Hayden. 
How excited are you for this 

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chapter about how? 
Well, as you've already said, 

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we've recorded it, but it's 
damn. 

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It wasn't amazing. 
Let's not pretend, I just a 

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pretend we have a just recorded 
it. 

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It's an incredible Chaska 
slipper, the viewers or 

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listeners have got an exciting 
conversation upcoming. 

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If they are as nerdy about 
mouths, as you and I are There 

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is one thing that Hayden and 
it's a problem for some people 

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who are listening in order for 
the podcast to continue playing.

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You need to give us a five star 
review. 

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So as long as you've done that 
do that now really quickly, if 

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you're listening, give us a five
star review, gets us more guess 

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in the future, more amazing 
chats, but the podcast has 

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actually stopped. 
If you don't do that, and send 

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us five pounds in the past, 
right? 

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So yeah, 500 500 pounds. 
Anyway. 

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Yeah. 
Shall we have the chat that we 

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definitely not had yet and just 
a pre-recording this. 

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Let's move on to the chat. 
We're about to have We are 

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really lucky today to be joined 
with another guest, mr. 

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Garreth Metcalfe himself who I 
personally have been a big fan 

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or for a very long time. 
I know that Dylan has been 

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laughing at me for a fanboying 
behind the scenes on the lead-up

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to, to this episode. 
So Gareth just want to say a 

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huge. 
Thank you for joining us. 

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Let's dive straight in and let 
the viewers and listeners know a

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little bit more about you and 
why you're here today. 

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So Gareth could you just 
introduce yourself and let us 

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know, perhaps, you know, what is
your involvement in the Teaching

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wild. 
Yeah, thanks. 

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Hayden is really great to be 
here and kind of my background 

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professionally. 
So, I did my nqt down south and 

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then I've been at one school at 
one school in Stockport for 

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Jack's, beloved, for 12 years, 
an amazing time, there it in my 

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time there, I did a little bit 
of work with Stockport local 

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Authority and supporting with 
math. 

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Specifically, I wrote a lot of 
resources around maths and I was

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very lucky to work with a 
literacy. 

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An amazing man and literacy 
consultant that many list. 

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As well. 
Know I've called Alan Pete and 

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publish my first ever Resources 
with Alan and which was 

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fantastic, but I guess my 
passion, then just became 

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specifically in maths teaching 
and I love the school I was at, 

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but I wanted to broaden my 
teaching experience and so in 

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2017 took a really difficult 
decision at the time to leave. 

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But to work directing my own 
company. 

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I see maths and but what I 
wanted to do is broaden my 

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teaching experience as well. 
So, in that move, I made sure 

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that there were a number of 
schools somewhere in England, 

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simran, North Wales where it 
have an ongoing teaching 

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commitment. 
So, I ended up teaching classes 

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from Nursery to year 6, and in a
range of different types of 

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schools demographics, which was 
just fantastic. 

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Really enjoyed that. 
And then, as spending some time 

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writing resources, ever since 
and doing some training, and 

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really that kind of Meandering 
journey is still where I'm at 

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now. 
And really enjoying it. 

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Well, I remember, I remember 
your first resources back in 

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maybe I guess about 2017 because
I purchased one of your first I 

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see reasoning PDFs. 
And I was in awe because I was 

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quite a fresh teacher at this 
point and I actually came to see

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you as well at one of your 
training events around that 

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time, and I remember just 
sitting there as I have fairly 

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new teacher thinking, this guy 
is teaching. 

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Is this guys doing it? 
Exactly how I imagined the 

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master is supposed to be taught.
And just using your resources, 

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go around the school saying, 
come on, we got to use these. 

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Got to use these because this 
is, this is how we should be 

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teaching children, how to solve 
problems. 

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So thank you for doing that. 
It must have been quite a scary 

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leap for you at the time, but 
clearly, clearly, a really good 

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one. 
So, with regarding your 

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resources, where are they kind 
of act now? 

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Because obviously, that was a 
long time ago that I I looked 

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into those have you have used 
kind of developed a whole Packer

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of resources. 
Now, that's a much larger than 

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yeah. 
Well, that's really interesting 

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story because my the First-ever 
resources actually wrote and the

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ones that are referenced that 
were published by by Alan. 

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Pete were requite off the wall 
at Sea and were real kind of 

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passion project of mine. 
The first one was called the 

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maths apprenticeship and and it 
was around extended real life 

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challenges at that point for 
year six children and so had 

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some amazing memories which we 
may refer to later of rolling 

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out those tasks. 
And and I wrote some other 

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resources as well which will 
really like looking at really 

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Richie Aging, Matt's tasks that 
at that time, were more aimed at

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children. 
High retaining children and I 

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remember writing a blog post, 
quite a while ago. 

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And that was when I was new to 
writing blog posts which which 

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probably had and in our thought 
I'm just going to I'm going to 

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share some examples of something
more, the kind of tasks that I 

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do on a day-to-day basis and I 
didn't really expect them to 

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particularly people's interest, 
but I actually had an enormous 

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Reaction to that original blog 
post and it made me think well 

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actually what I really want to 
focus my effort on is how do I 

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help teachers that? 
And I say time, pressure 

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teachers and of course that's 
all teachers to have some 

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resources. 
Great open-ended resources, 

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interesting thought-provoking 
challenges at the fingertips 

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right across the breadth of a 
primary maths curriculum. 

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Something you could more use on 
a day-to-day basis. 

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And in doing that, I had like a 
huge bank that I've used with 

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it. 
With the classes that I taught 

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which were primarily in up, Key 
Stage 2 and and really I guess, 

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ever since then, I've looked, 
you know, over the course of 

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time, particularly working 
different classes. 

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You realize you pick up new 
ideas. 

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I follow other people and I 
think, oh, that's a technique. 

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I could build in. 
And so the resources, keep 

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growing and my aim over the 
course of time will be to keep 

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doing that same thing. 
But you really big Banks of 

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resources but I guess the idea 
is How is it? 

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We give children tasks that. 
Don't just develop the content 

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knowledge, but also provide them
opportunities to be creative or 

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to have to persevere to find 
multiple possible answers, and 

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to be able to see different 
perspectives. 

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So, it's whilst I want the 
children to have the opportunity

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to develop that content 
knowledge as well through the 

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tasks. 
I also hope it just gives them a

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different experience of engaging
in in maths and kind of builds 

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their, if you like the 
characteristics of learning as 

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well. 
I'm going to come in quickly 

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because I'm something you said 
there. 

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I noticed a lot in your resource
for. 

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I've seen it before where you 
had certain levels and I love 

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those kind of ideas of going 
going deeper and deeper. 

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And you think find one answer 
find as many answers as you can 

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find all the answers. 
And that idea of, I was able to 

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give that to my class and some 
children were just working at 

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the level of finding an answer. 
And then I had some who very 

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quickly moved on to finding as 
many answers as possible and 

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others who are coming over ideas
of how to make sure they've got 

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all the possible ways and it was
amazing to see as a man. 

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Ask teacher that so that a whole
group of different abilities, 

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being able to access kind of the
same tasks and that idea of 

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actually, it's how far you go 
and that kind of opened up my 

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thinking to approach a mats in 
that kind of way of, you know, 

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that kind of Mastery idea of 
everyone's achieving the same 

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out. 
The same goal, the same 

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objective, but they're all 
getting there in different ways 

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and pushing themselves to 
different levels and that kind 

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of click something for me. 
And I thought I'd love to be 

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able to approach all of my math 
teaching and that way which I 

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think is really powerful. 
Yeah, I think like one That 

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that's always really driven me. 
Is the idea that I think Max is 

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unique in the range of emotions 
that it invokes. 

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And that's something that I 
always think is precious about 

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about mass. 
And whenever there are certain 

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kinds of tasks that where 
children have to be able to 

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self-regulate and it gives them 
the opportunity to, and to 

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explore to a greater extent. 
Then I feel that they experience

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Taste of the actual richness of 
what it is to be a 

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mathematician. 
If you like rather than just to 

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develop the content knowledge. 
And I think it's been that 

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that's been the thread which is 
gone right throughout all my 

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kind of resource creation and 
that's certainly the intention 

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anyway. 
No idea absolutely did it really

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did what we're going to do now 
though very quickly we did this 

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last time we had a guest and 
it's something we're trying out 

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because we finished it last time
and the poor person said I felt 

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The pressure doing that, so 
we're not trying to do that to 

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make that. 
Clear. 

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But we're going to play a quick 
kind of game. 

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Okay, so we're going to I'm 
going to say one word, I'll do 

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an example on Hayden now. 
Okay, so if for example, I said 

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to Hayden the gym, I'd want him 
to come back to me and say the 

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first word that comes to his 
mind. 

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So, Hayden the gym terrifying, 
you know, so something he might 

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want to avoid so, well, that 
will say, I'll say a word and 

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just your first thought coming 
back to it. 

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You ready? 
You're up for this? 

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Absolutely. 
Okay, we tried to pick some 

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relevant ones as well. 
So first one, number one rote, 

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learning necessary. 
The times table, check your 40. 

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I'm good necessary. 
Yeah. 

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All the way through. 
Okay marking Marking. 

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More or less specific. 
Oh, I can explain that. 

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Just oh if you want me to you 
can go and explain it because 

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the idea is breaking the 
sometimes marking we can be less

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specific. 
Feeling willing talks about 

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this. 
And for a correct or incorrect 

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little. 
There is this is we need to be 

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more specific, but I like the 
idea of giving children more 

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work to do, where is absolutely?
Okay, let's keep going staff 

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training. 
Ongoing. 

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English. 
English. 

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I said no, my mind is gone. 
That's why I'm not trying to be 

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mean I promise. 
Okay. 

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A couple more ready. 
Yeah. 

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The key stage 2 SATs. 
Unlimited. 

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Oh, teacher well-being. 
Crucial. 

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Maths investigations. 
And Rich, mmm. 

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And the last one, we always 
finish with this one because I 

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just find it interesting to see 
what people say straight away 

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ofsted. 
Necessary evil. 

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Brilliant all eyes. 
That's my favorite one yet. 

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Very good. 
Okay. 

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So the idea of that is we just 
get to break the ice a little 

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bit and sometimes like we did 
with marking, we can just dive 

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in a bit deeper there. 
And I think the one thing that I

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found interesting was when you 
said Rich from Mass 

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investigations because I've 
found in the past of Master 

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vestigation. 
Is this kind of linked to us? 

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Suppose your resource creation? 
Is it could it used to be a 

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little bit like when I started 
my career? 

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That when it came to 
investigations or even problem 

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solving and maths, it would be a
Friday job and that would come 

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from SLT down and it would be 
like well it's problem solving 

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for its word problem Friday and 
I feel like as a as a whole 

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profession thankfully I think 
with moving away from that a lot

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now because I think a lot of 
people when the new curriculum 

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came in, maybe thought it was 
just trendy to kind of shoehorn 

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it in there and just say oh 
we're doing a problem-solving 

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day and I think problem solving 
is a lot more nuanced than that 

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now. 
So just wondering really what's 

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your kind of opinion on the 
place of problem? 

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In the curriculum and how we can
kind of embed that a bit more 

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wholesome, a bit of a more 
wholesome approach instead of it

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just kind of being shoehorned on
and being a word problem, which 

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doesn't really Encompass 
problem. 

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Solving that. 
Yeah, well it's a great question

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and hopefully I can touch on 
just some of my some of my 

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random responses there. 
And I'd like to think of problem

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solving as being the the end 
that we're aiming at. 

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And and so when we talk about 
things like the times, Table 

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check and maybe we could you 
know how everything going to use

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the word necessary. 
And and fluency, I would see 

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that as almost a means to the 
end. 

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And the end being we want 
children to be able to engage in

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Breakdown, all kinds of 
different problem-solving tasks.

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And, and we know that flute, 
flute, recalled times table. 

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Facts is not the enemy of that. 
It's not the opposite of that. 

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It's just it, lessens, the 
burden on working memory and but

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the thing that I think is really
important is we don't see. 

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Problem solving is the thing 
that as A is the icing on the 

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cake but more that this is 
fundamentally, when we look at 

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why we even engage children in 
mathematics, it's you think it's

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about it's partly or a, to a 
large extent. 

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It's actually about them being 
able to break down different 

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types of problems and think 
independently to build these 

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skills. 
And so I think of problem 

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solving, in terms of let's say 
there's a there's a sequence of 

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lessons and we think we want the
children to be engaging this 

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kind of tap. 
Kind of tasks and to have the 

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skills in a toolbox to break 
this down and to explore this 

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kind of task and I would think 
well how do we work backwards 

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from that rather than 
problem-solving Friday? 

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I don't think the issue is that 
we doing the problems. 

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It's just it's just a disconnect
and like we refer to and I think

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we know that we need a lot of 
domain-specific knowledge to 

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have success in problem solving 
and I think I under-appreciated 

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earlier my career how important 
that domain specific knowledge 

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was Probably thought, if I build
shouldn't ability to problem, 

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solving one aspect of the 
curriculum, then they'll be able

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to do it in another as well. 
And it's probably more reliant 

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on that domain specific 
knowledge. 

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But I think the thing that's 
really important is thinking, 

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well, how do we target? 
Well we want to pick the 

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children to be able to engage in
these kinds of problem-solving 

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tasks and therefore the journey 
for them to get there. 

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We'll need to look like this and
for that to be coherent. 

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And I guess one of the issues 
that That I see where there's an

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over and over Alliance on 
schemes. 

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I think if we just blindly 
follow a scheme, what we in some

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instances, we might end up with 
is the highest attaining 

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children doing the problem 
solving at the end of the 

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lesson. 
And I think it's really 

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important that we model what 
expert problem solving looks 

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like, and we provide sequences 
of challenges that build shuns 

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capacity to problem solve and 
rather than it being something. 

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00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:57,700
Because to some extent that 
perhaps is an element to which 

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we can consider. 
Well, the children can meet 

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age-related expectation without 
having to go that deep within 

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the problem solving and I think 
that's process. 

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00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,600
Perhaps it's like kind of 
Separation that that use 

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00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,400
completely true because I know 
for a fact Hayden lion and all 

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00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,200
teachers we can fall into that 
trap and you hear things 

305
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,900
sometimes and we probably been 
guilty of saying in the past 

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where we think. 
Okay well you know, in terms of 

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00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:24,500
data for these children they can
get X amount of marks on the 

308
00:16:24,508 --> 00:16:27,300
arithmetic paper, and we can 
really focus on that fluency and

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00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:30,200
really get them to be practicing
that over and over again, and 

310
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,300
not necessarily exposing those 
children to problem solving 

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00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,100
that's appropriate for their 
ability and their understanding 

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00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:40,100
of those Basics. 
So a big thing we did in school 

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was we did a lot of Staff 
training and trying to implement

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00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,900
the idea of problem solving for 
everyone. 

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00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:47,200
What you just said and we can't 
save it as a challenge. 

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00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,000
It's not a challenge. 
It is the maths. 

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00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,500
It's as fundamental as that and 
the idea of okay, how can we 

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00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,000
Sure that those children who may
be struggled to meet age related

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00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,900
standards in arithmetic and 
don't meet that level of fluency

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00:16:59,900 --> 00:17:03,000
for their age expectation. 
How can we study ensure that 

321
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,900
those children are receiving? 
Enriching problem-solving 

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00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:08,000
activities which are relevant 
for them. 

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00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,300
And the kind of conclusion we 
came to was that it's okay to. 

324
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:14,700
If you're, for example, teaching
a fraction to unit. 

325
00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:18,000
If your child still may be 
working at a year below level or

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00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,000
not quite there. 
It's okay to dip back into the 

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00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,400
curriculum, a bit lower to 
provide them with those. 

328
00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:27,900
Problem solving ability those 
chances to do problem solving in

329
00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:30,500
a way where they're confident 
with the maths and the 

330
00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:32,000
structures of what they've got 
to do. 

331
00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:34,900
But then their cognitive load is
really focused on actually 

332
00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:37,900
breaking down the problem rather
than struggling to do the math 

333
00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:40,300
in the first place in which case
we see a lot of children, hit a 

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00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:42,100
brick wall and they can't access
it. 

335
00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:46,000
Absolutely absolutely. 
And that is the advice that I 

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00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,400
would give a guess. 
Really. 

337
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,600
And looking for the tasks, like,
when we're looking for 

338
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,700
problem-solving tasks, we're 
looking for something where 

339
00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:55,500
there's not a clearly defined. 
G2 to find the answer. 

340
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:58,300
And, and we might have to think.
Well, where do we lessen the 

341
00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:01,000
Challenge from to make that 
accessible. 

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00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:03,200
And, and like, the most obvious 
example, would be the number 

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00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,400
range that that quite the task 
itself asks us to work with 

344
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,900
them. 
But considering how is it that 

345
00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:13,600
we still engage children in 
those kinds of tasks? 

346
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,700
Because I do think as well with 
it even with a SATs papers they 

347
00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:21,200
a lot of the problems, what we 
would consider the worded 

348
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,300
questions, the problem-solving 
tasks are Are relatively 

349
00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:26,500
routine. 
And there are some big you're a 

350
00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:30,200
little bit more off the wall and
but there's a degree to which 

351
00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:34,000
you can predict some of the 
structures that will exist. 

352
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,100
And but I do think it's really 
important that children have 

353
00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:42,700
that balance of experience so 
that there aren't too many too 

354
00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:47,100
many like their experience of 
math is doesn't become too close

355
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,400
and too limited and even 
including the kind of emotional 

356
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,200
responses that I would like to 
have Walk through when their 

357
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,600
attainment slower. 
I think we is easy to see how 

358
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,300
that can happen for a child is 
attainment is higher. 

359
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,000
But I think like, you say, it's 
incumbent on us to think. 

360
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:04,700
We'll how is it that we can 
ensure? 

361
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:07,400
That all children are given 
those those experiences 

362
00:19:07,900 --> 00:19:10,100
absolutely. 
And even on a Tuesday May it 

363
00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:13,400
doesn't have to be a Friday. 
Gareth, I know you've made 

364
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,900
videos and you still do make 
videos which are upload to 

365
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:20,000
Youtube and I imagine other 
places as well and I've been 

366
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,900
really fascinated fascinated 
with a few of them because I've 

367
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:25,900
actually seen That you have 
taken stats questions, and 

368
00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:29,000
you've kind of systemically kind
of broken them down. 

369
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:33,200
You know what's your when you're
doing that? 

370
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:34,700
What is your advice to other 
teachers? 

371
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:37,300
What's your procedure for 
breaking down? 

372
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:40,000
The typical kind of SATs 
problem. 

373
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,600
That's maybe a couple of steps 
and actually teaching children 

374
00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:48,100
ways to solve these problems 
without just going through 

375
00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:50,000
because I thought I fall into 
this trap all the time. 

376
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,400
I'll go through a particular 
SATs paper or question. 

377
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,100
But I don't really feel like the
children are getting loads from 

378
00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:58,700
from that from that, you know, 
simply just solving that one 

379
00:19:58,700 --> 00:20:01,900
problem, but I feel like you do 
it in a different way that opens

380
00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:06,000
up a whole new Avenue of being 
able to actually teach children 

381
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,400
how to solve problems. 
Yeah. 

382
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,700
Thank you know this is something
that I'm really passionate about

383
00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:13,100
and I have to say this is one of
those things where I feel really

384
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:16,400
privileged because all of my 
thinking I can I can invest into

385
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,100
maths teaching. 
Whereas you know I know how 

386
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,700
challenging it is when you're 
full-time class teaching you 

387
00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:23,100
maybe have other 
responsibilities. 

388
00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:26,300
To really spend the time you'd 
need to dig into one question 

389
00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:28,400
and think, how can I break this 
down? 

390
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,200
The thing? 
I kind of keep referring to is 

391
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,400
and is a research paper, which 
you'd be able to find if you 

392
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,200
Googled it, which is removing 
opportunity to calculate improve

393
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,800
student performance, on 
subsequent, word problems. 

394
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:47,100
And the kind of the, the basic 
binding was if we initially take

395
00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:50,900
away the possibility of children
telling you the answer, then 

396
00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:53,300
they'll have to think about the 
structure of the question first.

397
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,600
So I would say powerful, 
absolutely. 

398
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,900
I would normally just look at a 
question and think what can I 

399
00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:04,300
remove at first? 
So children can process this 

400
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,100
information but they can't tell 
you the answer. 

401
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:10,000
And then I would think what, 
what are the pieces of 

402
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,700
information I can load in now it
might be as simple as covering 

403
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,700
one of the numbers or it might 
just be. 

404
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:19,600
I'm going to hide a piece of 
information and then I'll slowly

405
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,100
reveal that or I might ask the 
children. 

406
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,300
So what information do we need 
to be? 

407
00:21:23,500 --> 00:21:25,700
Given to answer this question, 
what information will be under 

408
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:29,700
this box and I had the luxury of
being able to think for quite a 

409
00:21:29,708 --> 00:21:33,200
while about one question and 
thinking well how is it that 

410
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,400
this could be revealed? 
So I think like an example would

411
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,400
be a from the previous year's 
SATs paper, coordinate question,

412
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,700
which we might consider one of 
the most difficult ones in the 

413
00:21:44,700 --> 00:21:46,200
paper. 
And we can look at the 

414
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,000
information that's given and 
then we can start thinking, 

415
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,300
well, well what what, what do we
already know? 

416
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:56,000
And maybe we can, we can work 
some kind of an estimate from 

417
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,400
the information that's given. 
What other information will we 

418
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,500
need? 
And then look at how that 

419
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:03,800
information can kind of be 
slowly built back in that it's 

420
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,200
fascinating because it's In 
that, you know as you know as 

421
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,600
mass leads in school, we are 
constantly thinking of ways of 

422
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,900
trying to help our staff, like 
like you're saying they're your,

423
00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:15,100
you say you're privileged to 
have that time to kind of dive 

424
00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:18,300
deeply into maths. 
And one of our biggest goals as 

425
00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:21,600
leaders in school, is to try and
allow staff to make that 

426
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,400
professional development to have
these amazing resources to have 

427
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,500
these brilliant ideas without 
being incumbent on them to spend

428
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:29,500
hours and hours doing so. 
So it's one of our biggest 

429
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:33,500
challenges and that's where your
kind of resources really do. 

430
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:35,200
Have such a powerful impact on 
staff. 

431
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,700
Because it's so clearly broken 
down. 

432
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,300
Anyone can follow it. 
And the way you explain things 

433
00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:43,300
is really powerful, and I think 
it gives it gives teachers that 

434
00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:46,500
ability to actually feel like, 
they're properly teaching 

435
00:22:46,500 --> 00:22:48,400
problem-solving, not just 
teaching maths, not just 

436
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,600
teaching procedures, which I 
think we fall into a lot, but to

437
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,100
feel as a teacher that you're 
teaching problem-solving, is 

438
00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:57,300
kind of our goal because I'm 
completely on the same page as 

439
00:22:57,308 --> 00:22:59,400
your garage. 
When you say what's the point of

440
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:00,100
teaching? 
Maths? 

441
00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:03,000
Well well we want functioning 
adults in our society, you can 

442
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,300
approach problems and solve them
by using these mechanisms. 

443
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,200
Isms that we call Matt. 
I mean it's just it's brilliant 

444
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,100
just here talking about it. 
It's awesome. 

445
00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:14,600
Something I did want to ask you 
about though in terms of kind of

446
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,100
link to our role as misleads. 
I know Hayden and I are 

447
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:19,600
constantly thinking of ways of 
how to help our colleagues. 

448
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,500
Basically, you work with a lot 
of schools like you said, and 

449
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:26,500
you provide training to a lot of
people just wondering, really 

450
00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:30,200
how you find that and in terms 
of D, do you find a lot of 

451
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,500
pushback sometimes to changing 
the ways? 

452
00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:35,700
We teach maths. 
I know maybe with Who kind of 

453
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:38,500
set in their ways before this 
idea of Mastery came in, you 

454
00:23:38,508 --> 00:23:42,500
know, setting and having task a 
task, beat RC and starting on 

455
00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:44,700
certain points. 
It's kind of changed a lot. 

456
00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:47,200
It feels like and Hayden and I 
kind of trained to be Math 

457
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,100
teachers as that change was 
happening. 

458
00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:51,100
So we don't know any different. 
Do you find? 

459
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:53,700
There's a pushback of many 
teachers or do you find? 

460
00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:56,800
They're just kind of there to 
take in as much as possible and 

461
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,400
want to change and want to 
improve. 

462
00:23:58,400 --> 00:23:59,800
How do you find that as a 
trainer? 

463
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,800
Yeah, I mean, I have to say that
I've been over the course of all

464
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,200
the time of all the work that 
I've done. 

465
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,400
One with teachers, I've just 
been blown away by by teachers 

466
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,200
and their capacity to want to 
support and help children. 

467
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,500
And and I, you know, I've just 
got an overwhelmingly positive 

468
00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:19,600
experience. 
The thing that I would say 

469
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,100
though and I experienced this 
myself teachings, massively, 

470
00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:26,800
it's just that the time we 
talked about well-being, the 

471
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,500
time pressures that were under 
our time is so precious. 

472
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:38,300
And There is and also, almost at
the mental energy that you have 

473
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:42,700
is, the job is so demanding. 
And and I think the issue is, 

474
00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:47,600
when, when you have to, it is 
cognitively heavy to have to 

475
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,700
deviate from the resources that 
you have what you kind of 

476
00:24:50,708 --> 00:24:52,600
currently do. 
And obviously, there's only so 

477
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,500
many different Avenues you can 
explore at any one time. 

478
00:24:56,900 --> 00:25:00,000
And so I do think it is, let's 
say from the perspective of 

479
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,300
maths leader, it is thinking 
about when is it Right. 

480
00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:07,200
And which as I say buttons, is 
it right to press which things 

481
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,000
is it right to explore and some 
thought about the process of 

482
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,800
that so I might start the ball 
rolling for schools in terms of 

483
00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:19,100
suggesting let's say looking at 
the way to deconstruct a 

484
00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:22,900
question and then the thing that
I always encourage schools to 

485
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:25,600
think about it is what that 
process might look like. 

486
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,500
So initially it might be an 
individual or a couple of 

487
00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:33,300
teachers explain what would this
look like in my in my class and 

488
00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:36,800
I know Doing like a little trial
and then thinking we might build

489
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,300
a little bank and being 
considerate as to what's the 

490
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:45,700
right time to address this with 
the whole staff, given the whole

491
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:49,500
they kind of bigger picture 
because I think it is. 

492
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:56,900
And I think the teachers Express
the this is something that they 

493
00:25:56,900 --> 00:25:59,000
have a desire van, it's 
something they see the benefit 

494
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,100
in and, and teachers wanted to 
be able to focus the teaching 

495
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:07,300
around the Problem solving, but 
its limitations are really 

496
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,800
understandable as well. 
I think to some extent you're 

497
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,400
really hitting home with me 
personally because I know, I 

498
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,600
know exactly what you mean, as 
someone, who is really, really 

499
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,100
passionate about teaching maths.
I'm having mixed emotions always

500
00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:24,100
for this conversation because 
I'm starting to reflect on, you 

501
00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:26,700
know, my my job right now and 
I'm like, do you know, do you 

502
00:26:26,708 --> 00:26:27,900
know what? 
There are certain things that 

503
00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:29,300
we've talked about. 
I feel like I've not done that 

504
00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:31,700
in a while. 
I guess I used to be like the 

505
00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:33,700
most passionate person about 
doing this and I've got done A 

506
00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:35,000
while. 
Why is that? 

507
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,400
And you just think? 
Yeah. 

508
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,300
Is it the pressures of the 
teaching is it? 

509
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:40,700
Because after you get 
passionate, but you're 

510
00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:42,700
passionate about something for a
while and then suddenly, I yeah 

511
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:44,700
you got this massive English 
skin to come in now. 

512
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,000
Actually, we've got a rework 
this curriculum in history, so 

513
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,500
you're going to work on that now
for a bit and suddenly after six

514
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:52,500
more things, you know, you find 
yourself as a year. 

515
00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:55,400
Six teacher in particular, I 
find myself falling into that 

516
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,800
trap of. 
Yeah. 

517
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,400
But these kids got a pass that 
test and like Dylan said earlier

518
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,400
and this really hit home because
I hate it, I hate it. 

519
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,400
I do this but it definitely 
happens. 

520
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,500
It's that whole, hang on. 
How am I going to? 

521
00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:10,500
Am I going to maximize these 
chart these children's marks 

522
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:13,700
because I've got one month left 
until the SATs now, is it a 

523
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:18,000
these rich maths lessons of 
problem-solving that make, that 

524
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,700
might not get them quick marks 
in this test or is it? 

525
00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:23,200
Or let's just do some 
arithmetic, because actually get

526
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,000
some there. 
And I hate to say it. 

527
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,300
But I know people will be 
nodding there. 

528
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:30,300
Listening is quite often the one
that gets you better stats 

529
00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:32,400
results. 
And I hate that I really don't 

530
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,000
like the fact that Even I'm 
falling into that trap as 

531
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,000
someone who's really, really 
passionate about this subject, 

532
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,900
which I'm finding quite hard. 
And let me say that I would be 

533
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,100
I'd be exactly in that same 
boat. 

534
00:27:45,100 --> 00:27:50,600
So I've taken, I think, I think 
it's 9 Co has been might be 10 

535
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:56,500
through science and like the 
thing I would say is to and we 

536
00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:59,500
all, you know, we're all under 
that pressure and there are, you

537
00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:01,700
know, to some extent, there are 
certain benefits and children, 

538
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:04,200
derived from having that real 
For Stephen. 

539
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,500
And and it's certainly true that
if you want to improve and I 

540
00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:11,800
also been in that situation many
times, you know, where you want 

541
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,800
to improve children's attainment
and you've got a month, then the

542
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,400
correct thing to do is to focus 
on the developing, the kind of 

543
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:24,300
content knowledge. 
And that is, you could say 

544
00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:26,700
that's appropriate at that time 
and, you know, we shouldn't have

545
00:28:26,708 --> 00:28:29,200
this specific focus on the 
living up to the SATs. 

546
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,800
And I think them having that 
experience of dealing with 

547
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,700
something that's, you know, they
may see Being pressurized it in 

548
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:37,500
the course of their life, you 
know, might not be such a bad 

549
00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:39,700
thing that they, that they have 
that experience. 

550
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:44,300
They come through that. 
I think the issue is, if that's 

551
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:47,000
their experience for six or 
seven years. 

552
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,600
And I think there's a time where
we want to think, right? 

553
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,100
We want to really build 
children's capacity, as for 

554
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:56,800
example, as problem solvers. 
And we want to build a learning 

555
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,300
behavior. 
And then they'll be a point at, 

556
00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:02,000
which, which is from need to 
nail the content knowledge. 

557
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:05,500
The, I mean, the other, the 
other thing just to kind of 

558
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:09,800
touch on that as well, is I 
think it comes to the importance

559
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,500
of thinking of working through 
things as a whole school as a 

560
00:29:14,508 --> 00:29:18,200
staff so that individual child 
has a care and experience. 

561
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,800
And thinking, if it's for 
example, looking at 

562
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:26,200
deconstructing word questions, 
if we introduce a variation of 

563
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,200
like the same approach when the 
children are in year one, and 

564
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,200
then you too, and it develops in
year 3, but we have the same 

565
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:34,800
thing. 
Um, so one of the things I talk 

566
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,600
about is covering the 
information that a blue box and 

567
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,500
the question with a red box 
often if I'm, if I'm doing that 

568
00:29:40,500 --> 00:29:43,500
when I'm looking at a question 
and so children, can it get to 

569
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:47,000
see that if there's they might 
see a question and there's 

570
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,800
information is covered in a blue
box. 

571
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,400
Now, if they've done that in 
year 3 in India, for and in year

572
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,200
five, when you're in year, six, 
it's that's almost an embedded 

573
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,400
behavior, and it's not as 
difficult for you to implement 

574
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,500
Now, it might be that if they 
haven't done that in year three 

575
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:09,500
and year four and you are five, 
he's probably not in your 

576
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:13,200
interest to do that. 
Yeah, well, yeah, being specific

577
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,900
about well, these are the things
that, as a, when I say, as a 

578
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:18,900
staff that we work on, this is 
how they'll be. 

579
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:22,100
Some obviously, some individual 
differences between teachers. 

580
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:27,000
But thinking if we do this 
together, the individual child 

581
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,200
will have a coherent experience 
and that would be my 

582
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,700
encouragement to schools, and 
it's both thinking this. 

583
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,800
Is what we'll focus on and also 
causes thinking well this is 

584
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,800
what will not focus on. 
I think I can think of the 

585
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,000
ultimate example of hated I 
think I think of the safety of 

586
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,400
the night, I think of the exact 
maybe are you thinking about 

587
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,100
modeling? 
Yes, exactly. 

588
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:47,700
The same exactly the same for me
and I know Dillards, there's 

589
00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:49,400
like a see, you itching to go as
well, but you to? 

590
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,700
Yeah, we're also Monica. 
I know what I'm thinking. 

591
00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:54,000
I thinking trying to teach 
children while model who've 

592
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,100
never done it, but yeah, I've 
got a kind of, kind of funny 

593
00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:57,800
story, actually, for you care 
about that. 

594
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,200
But bar modeling, I think is the
ultimate example of When it's 

595
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,100
embedded over years, it could be
a really, really effective tool 

596
00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:08,300
in terms of visualization, of 
problems. 

597
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,000
But when it's one of those 
things that is just, you know, 

598
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,600
you're in es6 and the children 
have never seen it before and 

599
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,600
you try to tackle a year six 
level problem and you say, come 

600
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,700
on guys, this bar model at. 
So let's visualize this. 

601
00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:23,100
This problem from my experience 
of doing this, in many, many 

602
00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:26,100
cohorts. 
They almost never understand it.

603
00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:29,200
They and they don't like using 
it and it's just nonsense to 

604
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,700
them because it's, like you 
said, if you're introducing the 

605
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,300
The red and the blue boxes 
really late in the game. 

606
00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:38,200
It might not be in your best 
interest and and just a very 

607
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,200
quick funny story for you when I
was going through the interview 

608
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,200
process to get my first teaching
job, it was like the buzz thing 

609
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,300
around then is about 78 years 
ago and I went to a school and I

610
00:31:50,308 --> 00:31:53,700
got an interview and I thought 
I'm going to really wow this 

611
00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:56,500
school. 
I'm going to impress them with 

612
00:31:56,500 --> 00:32:01,900
my mass knowledge and I went 
into this year, five class and I

613
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:05,300
had a 20-minute slot to teach 
this maths lesson so I decided 

614
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:08,600
to do some problem solving with 
bar modeling and it was the most

615
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,900
disastrous lesson I've ever 
taught in my career. 

616
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:13,200
And obviously, I didn't get the 
job, but it was, it was 

617
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,400
hilarious, you know, because 
they had not a clue, what I was 

618
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,300
talking about and they could not
process, you know what I was 

619
00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:23,700
trying to teach them in a 
20-minute lesson, so I learned 

620
00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:26,900
the hard way that so, basically 
just added another cognitive 

621
00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:29,100
load this, you just wait, I 
don't know how to answer this 

622
00:32:29,100 --> 00:32:31,300
question and I don't know what 
your business as an adult for 

623
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:32,900
me. 
I didn't have the cognitive load

624
00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:34,900
of solving the problem because 
it was easy for me, but the 

625
00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:37,200
problem was already hard for 
them and I've just chucked in 

626
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,200
this other really hard concept. 
So yeah, that's my story. 

627
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,100
Let me just give you, I can't 
help but give you a little 

628
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:47,700
anecdote on that. 
So when we were trying to 

629
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:51,500
appoint a year for teacher and 
we had lots of teachers coming 

630
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:55,800
in to teach 20 minute lesson and
there were the theme was, it has

631
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,400
to be based on their topic which
is World War Two. 

632
00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:03,400
And so it was with two classes. 
All these Only interviewees were

633
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,800
teaching these two classes and I
would say that 80% of them had 

634
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,000
an air raid siren, going and got
the children going under the 

635
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,200
tables, and then they'd gotten 
to do something. 

636
00:33:14,700 --> 00:33:17,800
Now, the children were 
absolutely rocking for about the

637
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,500
first material lessons and then 
after there, had to go a cable, 

638
00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:25,400
three or four times this air 
raid siren went off. 

639
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:31,600
No one was shocked, and they 
were like looking at another. 

640
00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:35,500
The teachers here with first 
weather fortunate ones, but it 

641
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:37,500
was. 
So it was really, it was really 

642
00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:40,200
hard watching this you know, 
prepared this lesson thought 

643
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,000
this is going to really hit the 
yeah, this is gonna wow them and

644
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,600
they're like, oh boring already 
been bombed. 

645
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,000
Four times this morning. 
Yeah. 

646
00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:52,100
And I just wanted to touch on 
something. 

647
00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:54,300
Gareth because it's something 
you've mentioned before as well.

648
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:55,800
And its really interesting to 
us. 

649
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,900
And I don't want to jump the gun
and presume exactly what this is

650
00:33:57,908 --> 00:34:00,100
about. 
But that you talk about the 

651
00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:03,000
emotional ride of Would you mind
a guy from mysen, how? 

652
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,900
It's a really unique lesson of, 
you know, you can feel Eureka 

653
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:07,700
moments. 
You can feel frustration that 

654
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:10,800
this kind of, in such a short 
amount of time and children 

655
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,000
struggle to control their 
emotions at the best of times. 

656
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:14,600
That's another thing they're 
learning to do throughout their 

657
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,800
journey through school and you 
mentioned this idea of concept 

658
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,699
cartoons or or I just love for 
you to go into some more detail 

659
00:34:20,699 --> 00:34:22,100
about this. 
This thing you're working on at 

660
00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:24,199
the moment. 
Yeah yeah I'm really excited 

661
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:28,600
about it and it's when I said 
I'm working on it it's really a 

662
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:30,500
thought that's been forming in 
my wife. 

663
00:34:30,500 --> 00:34:32,900
Mine for a while. 
It's just like, the best way to 

664
00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:37,900
Manifest this, but the thing 
that I like, if I was to say, 

665
00:34:38,699 --> 00:34:42,300
the two words that we often use 
to describe the emotions 

666
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:45,800
children experience in maths, I 
think that they would generally 

667
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:51,000
be anxiety and fun. 
And the thing that I kind of 

668
00:34:51,007 --> 00:34:56,000
come to say, is that actually 
very, very rarely think maths, I

669
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,700
would best describe as being 
fun. 

670
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:01,600
I don't think that's a word that
like, I think, Matt. 

671
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,200
Invoke fantastically positive 
emotions and it can be really 

672
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,200
rich and we can have this kind 
of drive towards finding a 

673
00:35:10,207 --> 00:35:14,600
solution, and we can feel like 
we might feel great excitement, 

674
00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:19,500
but the kind of children's 
understanding of fun and is 

675
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:21,100
probably something a little bit 
lighter. 

676
00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:25,900
And and also, I think we can 
think of the, what we might call

677
00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:27,400
him. 
I wouldn't call them the 

678
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,600
negative emotions, but the 
uncomfortable emotions and 

679
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,100
actually children being able to 
Discerning between them and 

680
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,100
rather than we just label. 
Everything is being anxiety and 

681
00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:41,100
actually see the value of them. 
So so for example, like every 

682
00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:45,700
mathematician will need to be 
able to deal with frustration 

683
00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:49,400
and actually frustration might 
be really helpful because it 

684
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,500
might drive us towards action 
and it might lead us to question

685
00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:56,900
our thoughts. 
And and and and looking at well 

686
00:35:56,900 --> 00:35:59,300
how do we deal with that 
frustration like just 

687
00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:02,500
frustration? 
Turn into apathy And actually 

688
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:07,900
noting that sometimes emotions 
will kind of up regulate us and 

689
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,900
and but sometimes they'll have 
the opposite effect and really 

690
00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:16,000
wanting to help children to be 
able to recognize some of those 

691
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,600
different, some of those, the 
different emotions that that it 

692
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,300
can mask and bring up and 
specifically to be able to do. 

693
00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:27,800
So before the experience them is
the number of times that a child

694
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,400
may be in at a particular 
emotional state. 

695
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,300
That's Unhelpful for them, when 
they're engaging in maths. 

696
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,100
I find that trying to address 
that in that moment. 

697
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,300
Isn't that helpful? 
Whereas, if I have prepared them

698
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:45,500
for some of the emotions that 
they may experience within when 

699
00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:48,600
engaging in Mass, they might be 
better able to deal with them. 

700
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,900
And so, just like one other 
example, might be, if a child's 

701
00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:57,700
attainment is high, they will 
may find it more difficult when 

702
00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:02,200
they then encounter Challenge 
and they may become more More 

703
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,500
defensive than and it's trying 
to, I guess, show that like, all

704
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:10,400
these emotions are totally human
and normal. 

705
00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:12,800
And, and it's very 
understandable. 

706
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,600
We have them, like, we're social
beings. 

707
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,300
The fact that we might feel 
embarrassment, so, 

708
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:21,600
embarrassments very different in
frustration and lice awful if we

709
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,700
feel embarrassed. 
You know, we're wired to come 

710
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,600
however, much I say, don't 
compare yourself to the person 

711
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,500
next year. 
I think children need to know, 

712
00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:30,000
well, that actually 
biologically. 

713
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,700
Yeah, it's something that we do.
And it's to feel bad about that.

714
00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:36,900
But just, you know, we need to 
be able to look at that thought 

715
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:43,700
and recognize that it's just the
thought and trying to find a 

716
00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:45,400
way, which is the thing I'm 
doing it. 

717
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,300
And which is this kind of 
thought, I've of concept 

718
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:52,000
cartoons, but trying to find a 
way to help children to navigate

719
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,900
their emotions in, as it relates
to mass. 

720
00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:59,100
I think, I think it's really 
important for them more, 

721
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:01,500
broadly. 
But I also think it's a really 

722
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,200
But Amendment thing to their 
success as a mathematician. 

723
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,100
And so yeah. 
So it's so similar. 

724
00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:10,100
I'm looking into and what I Look
to do, is, maybe create a few 

725
00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:13,300
examples of put them out on 
social media or even when I get 

726
00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:15,500
that. 
And then I just I love getting 

727
00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:19,200
feedback from people saying I'm 
always looking for but suggest 

728
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,600
improvements as well. 
And like, rather than people 

729
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,600
just tell me what they like. 
Yeah. 

730
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,400
So yeah. 
So we're falling into that trap 

731
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,800
today which is like amazing. 
Yeah well but yeah, you're 

732
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,700
right. 
Well the things I absolutely 

733
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:33,000
loved. 
And still as the work with my, 

734
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,800
the school that was up for 12 
years is how Challenge 

735
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,200
two-hander and like the 
headteacher. 

736
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,000
Absolutely amazing guy. 
Amazing. 

737
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,500
Brain really determined really 
child centers and I know that 

738
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:49,300
I'm I'm challenged and it's it's
worth its weight in gold. 

739
00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:53,300
I really like the idea you got 
me thinking when you said about 

740
00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:57,300
frustration in maths because it 
two things firstly. 

741
00:38:57,300 --> 00:38:59,300
Absolutely right. 
Because when I see a child get 

742
00:38:59,300 --> 00:39:03,000
frustrated, my natural instinct 
is to Sold him and I'm thinking,

743
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,800
oh no I'm going to lose them now
we lose them. 

744
00:39:06,100 --> 00:39:08,800
Let's just make them feel 
better, you know, but actually, 

745
00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:11,900
I love this idea of showing 
children, okay? 

746
00:39:11,900 --> 00:39:12,600
Right. 
Frustration. 

747
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,400
You're on a pathway and you've 
got you stuck a fork in the 

748
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,200
road, isn't it? 
Almost you news? 

749
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,600
You mentioned apathy. 
It's like, okay, what other, 

750
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,000
what other ways could we go of 
this? 

751
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,900
Maybe, maybe it becomes 
determination. 

752
00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:26,300
And why does it have to be this 
negative root where you get it? 

753
00:39:26,300 --> 00:39:29,000
You know, where you're just, 
always always the same thing 

754
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,500
where you just get may be upset.
And then teachers will make 

755
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:32,800
Judgment. 
So know that child was gets 

756
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,000
upset. 
If it's too hard, so we won't 

757
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,000
give them to hard stuff because 
they just got upset and then 

758
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:37,500
they don't, then they can't do 
the task. 

759
00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:39,500
So we always just give me a 
little bit easier stuff. 

760
00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:44,700
So I really, really like that 
idea of exploring the emotional 

761
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,600
root of things have just showing
children. 

762
00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:51,800
Hey, these are normal, by the 
way, I feel like this II feel 

763
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:57,400
like this when this happens and 
when I deal with it in this way,

764
00:39:57,700 --> 00:40:00,500
this outcome is often the thing.
And when I don't this is the 

765
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:02,900
outcome, you know? 
And just showing Them before it 

766
00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:04,200
happens. 
I think that's a really good 

767
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:05,700
idea. 
I'll be very interested to see 

768
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:07,800
what you kind of create with 
that. 

769
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,000
Yeah, and I'll tell you that the
biggest, one of the biggest I've

770
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,600
made a little so many mistakes 
for, I've learned things I read 

771
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,600
about something and think, my 
goodness have done that for had 

772
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,700
this many years and one of them 
and we should he wish I often 

773
00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:25,800
refer to in it in this field is 
trying to tell children that 

774
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,500
mass will be fun today. 
Now, we know that when we enter 

775
00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:33,400
into a learning apis, owed our 
brain In releases epinephrine is

776
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,700
adrenaline for the brain, which 
is essentially a stress 

777
00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:38,200
chemical. 
So learning biologically is 

778
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:43,000
uncomfortable. 
And at that time, I'm telling 

779
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,100
children have fun, mass is going
to be and their physical 

780
00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:48,100
experience. 
Isn't that? 

781
00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:50,500
It is, it is anything other than
that. 

782
00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:53,800
And actually, it's kind of 
understanding that, you know, 

783
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,100
the perseverance in the effort 
and the frustration is often the

784
00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:01,500
precursor to the if you like the
place. 

785
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,000
The Motions that the, the 
pleasant emotions. 

786
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:09,700
And so, I like to challenge this
idea of there, being negative 

787
00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:13,900
and positive emotions, and also 
just the idea as I say, like I 

788
00:41:13,908 --> 00:41:16,500
want rather than me trying to 
tell the children. 

789
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:22,300
Maths is fun and likely to 
experience, the, the kind of the

790
00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:26,500
if you like the all of the 
breadth of fantastic emotions we

791
00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:28,900
experience when were engaging in
maths. 

792
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,200
But I always think that's more 
about the task decide. 

793
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,100
Then it is about me trying to 
convince them that something's 

794
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:37,000
fun because actually also 
there's an element to which some

795
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,800
of maths is repetitive and like 
I don't think I could convince 

796
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,900
child that learning that number 
bonds determine the Time. 

797
00:41:43,900 --> 00:41:47,700
Saver fact, it's fun because I 
don't think it is but it is an 

798
00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:51,400
important precursor to something
else which will be rich for 

799
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,300
them. 
I think a really powerful thing 

800
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:56,100
that we kind of move unpicked 
through our conversation here. 

801
00:41:56,100 --> 00:41:59,800
Is that there are just so many 
different aspects and ways that 

802
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,400
we have to approach maths. 
It's free. 

803
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,900
Be a really wholesome experience
and like you said, you need to 

804
00:42:03,900 --> 00:42:06,900
have and I love the idea of 
looking at it through the lens 

805
00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:08,600
of emotion. 
Like you've just been saying of 

806
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:10,700
this part of mass might well be 
boring. 

807
00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:12,100
Like you said, learn your times 
tables. 

808
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:13,900
This Parts can be really 
frustrating. 

809
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,100
This part is going to be this 
emotion that emotion and 

810
00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:18,000
equipping. 
The children to understand that.

811
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,200
I think we'll put them in such a
better place. 

812
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,300
To really attack these things 
and do them. 

813
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:25,700
Because, you know, we use time 
step rock star in our school. 

814
00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:28,500
And the idea is the idea is and 
you're absolutely right here. 

815
00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:31,000
Will say, oh, it's fun. 
You get to make an avatar and 

816
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,300
you You can go on and and coins 
and it's really fun for a lot of

817
00:42:34,300 --> 00:42:37,000
children, nearly all children. 
It's not fun. 

818
00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:39,500
You get the odd child who goes 
on on their own, you know, does 

819
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,400
a million different million 
minutes a week of Times Table 

820
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,400
Rock Star? 
But I think that honest open 

821
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,900
discourse of the child does 
start with the kind of thing, 

822
00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:49,100
you're trying to create here, 
which is actually teaching them,

823
00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:51,100
what the emotions are in the 
first place because there's 

824
00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:53,900
going to be a disconnect 
otherwise and I think I'm really

825
00:42:53,900 --> 00:42:56,400
looking forward to seeing what 
you come up with because we can 

826
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,500
certainly Implement them and see
how they're going on. 

827
00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:01,500
It's one of those things where I
feel like I just need to kind of

828
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:06,400
of sit in an empty room for a 
couple of weeks and and then 

829
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,200
fight come up with some examples
and usually when I've got one or

830
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,900
two and throw them out there and
get some opinions on that and 

831
00:43:11,900 --> 00:43:16,000
that's when balls rolling. 
But it's definitely a thing that

832
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,300
I think that there is this 
ground to take with helping 

833
00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:23,800
children to understand and be 
able to regulate their emotions.

834
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:24,800
Certainly when they're doing 
maths. 

835
00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:30,400
So Gareth a long time ago, as I 
said, you've you really inspired

836
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,900
me as a fresh teacher to really,
just think outside of the box 

837
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,300
with mass teaching and it was at
a time, it was 2014-2015. 

838
00:43:40,300 --> 00:43:42,400
So it was at that really pivotal
moment. 

839
00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:45,000
When we had the new National 
curriculum come in and suddenly,

840
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,400
everyone was moving away from 
their textbooks, where it was 

841
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,500
just kind of, like, Columns of a
b, and c, and you do challenge 

842
00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:54,200
by choice or you say great, you 
know, you're the most stable. 

843
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,200
So you do the Hard column and 
you do the Z column and we were 

844
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,300
moving away from that and you 
massively inspired me with your 

845
00:44:00,300 --> 00:44:03,300
resources and with the training 
you pain to do things like, hey,

846
00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:07,400
you know, that I still remember 
the day, when you said you gave 

847
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,600
an example on the screen of 
showing hiding some information 

848
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,500
and getting the children to 
visualize a problem before, they

849
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:16,600
then tackle the information. 
So that mean that was just one 

850
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:22,200
of many things if you were to 
speak to directly now to so some

851
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,100
new teachers like myself back 
then, What would be? 

852
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,500
This is gonna be a hard question
for you, but what would it be? 

853
00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:33,000
I guess, your advice for a 
really passionate fresh teacher 

854
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,000
who really wants to nail their 
maths teacher and be a better 

855
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,600
maths teacher. 
What would you say to them? 

856
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,300
Okay, there's so many little 
things and, and, and the thing I

857
00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:47,300
guess, before I answer that is, 
I would say, the people just to 

858
00:44:47,300 --> 00:44:53,000
be and patient with themselves 
and because I am a kind of 

859
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,600
person, you know, I was I'm 
really driven and really 

860
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,900
passionate and things have gone 
wrong for me so often and it and

861
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:03,900
that's part of the kind of 
experimentation with in teaching

862
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:07,200
as well and children benefit 
from you experimenting. 

863
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,900
And I think it kind of to that 
end I guess that I would say is 

864
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,500
that the teacher you are not a 
deliverer of a scheme and and 

865
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,600
what we want to be able to do is
it's a fantastic to have a 

866
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,600
structure and that's really 
helpful and to have great 

867
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,800
resources and it's thinking 
about how do I Where do I take 

868
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,300
ownership of that? 
And how do I ensure that? 

869
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:34,700
What the children are telling me
in their success and I am able 

870
00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:38,700
to adapt to them and for that to
take the form of, it might be 

871
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:40,700
within a lesson. 
I'm looking for a little checks 

872
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:45,700
for understanding and I would 
use the tools of you know, 

873
00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:49,300
giving children individual 
thinking time looking at a 

874
00:45:49,308 --> 00:45:52,300
little questions that I can, I 
can give that will that will 

875
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:54,800
check for understanding within a
lesson and look at how I do. 

876
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:58,200
That within a lesson, but also 
kind of looking over time and 

877
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,400
seeing the characteristics that 
children are building and where 

878
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,300
is it? 
I should place my emphasis. 

879
00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:07,000
So when I take the structure 
that I work with in, how do I 

880
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,900
amend it? 
And how do I, how do I make that

881
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:15,100
make that my own and I guess to 
some extent as well just and 

882
00:46:15,100 --> 00:46:16,400
they've just a general 
encouragement. 

883
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,500
I give anyone in any subject is 
just to be open with the things 

884
00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:23,200
that you're unsure of all 
finding difficult and and 

885
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,100
finding different opinions and I
remember moving to one of my 

886
00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:29,000
favorite examples that I give, I
don't think it had. 

887
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,400
It makes my least favorite 
example. 

888
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,700
Again, was moving to U1 and 
finding my partner teacher, just

889
00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:37,200
delivering things much more 
effectively than I was. 

890
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,200
And I was quite senior in my 
career then and actually, I just

891
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,900
knew what I needed to do is I 
just need to go and have a look 

892
00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:47,900
at what it looks like in there 
and and I think is to some 

893
00:46:47,900 --> 00:46:52,100
extent it's that humility is 
well, that is it's really 

894
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:53,800
important. 
I think. 

895
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,100
Yeah, you nailed That and I 
think the, you sort of you said 

896
00:46:57,100 --> 00:46:59,400
it mentioned earlier on than you
went into more detail about 

897
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:01,500
you've made mistakes. 
You've made plenty of mistakes 

898
00:47:01,500 --> 00:47:04,000
yourself and I think it's so 
important for people to hear 

899
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,900
that because I am definitely a 
sucker for the whole. 

900
00:47:06,900 --> 00:47:11,200
Like, it's like the example of a
Instagram versus reality and 

901
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,200
people always say that, don't 
know what you see on Instagram. 

902
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,400
Whatever it is, it's not really 
reality and I guess it's the 

903
00:47:15,408 --> 00:47:17,800
same in teaching, you know, you 
might go to some incredible 

904
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,600
training and speed to some 
incredible people. 

905
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,600
It doesn't mean they're not 
making any mistakes and it's 

906
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,600
definitely worth knowing that. 
So thank you. 

907
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,500
I wish I That early on. 
Because I definitely beat myself

908
00:47:27,500 --> 00:47:31,500
up too many times when one 1 
lesson wasn't perfect, you know?

909
00:47:31,500 --> 00:47:33,700
And it's like it's fine. 
Then after you beat yourself up,

910
00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:36,300
I then came and beat you. 
Yeah, cuz I cuz you because you 

911
00:47:36,308 --> 00:47:37,500
taught the lesson that I've 
ironed. 

912
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:41,600
Yeah, we were planning Partners 
when we first started off as 

913
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:42,800
well. 
So there was there was 

914
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,500
definitely an idea of 
competition here. 

915
00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:46,000
Oh yeah. 
And we didn't, we didn't let 

916
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,300
each other, you know, have that 
kind of and looking back. 

917
00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:50,100
We should have let us. 
Let us let sounds off a little 

918
00:47:50,100 --> 00:47:53,700
bit every now and then because 
it's important and Gareth, it's 

919
00:47:53,700 --> 00:47:57,700
been amazing advice and And you 
know, truly truly fantastic. 

920
00:47:57,700 --> 00:47:59,700
I know you said, you like being 
challenged and not just praised.

921
00:47:59,700 --> 00:48:02,500
But I'm here to praise him 
because it's been such a nice 

922
00:48:02,500 --> 00:48:05,400
chat and really appreciate you 
giving us your time. 

923
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,500
And I do think that Hayden 
asked. 

924
00:48:07,500 --> 00:48:10,200
If you had a story that you 
wanted to share of us that we 

925
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,300
often, ask anyone who comes on a
podcast, to give us a little 

926
00:48:13,300 --> 00:48:14,800
anecdote, from the time in 
teaching. 

927
00:48:14,900 --> 00:48:17,700
It could be heartwarming. 
Finally, just interesting. 

928
00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:20,200
Do you have them ready for us? 
Yeah, I do. 

929
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,000
And this again is something that
I've done I've ever mentioned 

930
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:27,700
before but it is When so I'll 
goodness if I'm guessing the 

931
00:48:27,700 --> 00:48:31,300
Year this is maybe 2012. 
Now I'd mention it beginning. 

932
00:48:31,500 --> 00:48:33,900
The First Resource at ever 
created was called the mass 

933
00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:37,900
apprenticeship and they were 
challenges that used to take a 

934
00:48:37,900 --> 00:48:39,600
group of children. 
It's so it's used to give 

935
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,800
children a little assessment 
towards the end of the unit. 

936
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:46,200
And if they, some children might
need additional the Judgment had

937
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,700
made the time some children 
might benefit from having that 

938
00:48:48,700 --> 00:48:53,000
additional time more, direct 
teacher time that they can get 

939
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,500
supported to go. 
Over some of the content and to 

940
00:48:56,500 --> 00:48:59,100
address some of the 
misconceptions and we had some 

941
00:48:59,100 --> 00:49:01,300
children that would go on to 
what we call the extension 

942
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:04,600
pathway which were the maths 
Apprentice tasks which are 

943
00:49:04,607 --> 00:49:07,300
getting the first tasks that I 
ever published. 

944
00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:14,500
And so it might be what one task
was around, ordering, a stock 

945
00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:18,900
rotation system for a fruit 
stall and there was another one,

946
00:49:18,900 --> 00:49:24,400
in, racking my brains now, which
was looking at some data from a 

947
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,700
football. 
Season and get providing some 

948
00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:28,800
suggestions to manage. 
This is all kinds of different 

949
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,000
tasks that there was one, which 
was probably one of my 

950
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:37,300
favorites, which was designing 
and writing security codes for 

951
00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:40,000
the MI5. 
So the children would have this 

952
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,500
this bespoke prompt and what 
they would then do is they would

953
00:49:44,500 --> 00:49:48,000
have to meet someone and 
communicate their thinking to 

954
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,000
that person. 
So, for example, I would go out 

955
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,000
the room normally or invite 
someone else and I would come 

956
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:58,200
back in dressed up As the 
stallholder guys. 

957
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,300
And then the, but the children 
quite quickly fall into the 

958
00:50:02,300 --> 00:50:05,700
narrative and they would have to
communicate what they're 

959
00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:09,200
suggesting. 
So I've been forgetting the name

960
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,700
of the person from from a theme 
park manager. 

961
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,100
He was looking for a suggestion 
and then I'll come in as Alex. 

962
00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:19,700
The stallholder, who was a bit? 
Didn't really understand his 

963
00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:23,200
figures very well needed a bit 
of support, but then my favorite

964
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,900
one and this was well before 
they kind of He's a zoom with 

965
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:33,000
coming in at for the MI5. 
Task was Skyping the class 

966
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:38,600
wearing a stage from the 
planning like the PPA room and 

967
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:43,000
the children having to give 
explaining that MI5 the security

968
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,600
codes which was like they had to
come up with something that we 

969
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,100
generate a four digit code using
personal information and the 

970
00:50:51,100 --> 00:50:52,800
date. 
So they would have to think of a

971
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,900
way of doing and it always have 
to be 8 a 4 digit number and but

972
00:50:57,900 --> 00:51:00,700
the way they would always 
explain, as I say we would once 

973
00:51:00,700 --> 00:51:04,000
a year we would Skyping. 
And then what they would always 

974
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,400
do is they would always try and 
run after the lesson to get the 

975
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,800
PPA room. 
But again that was probably one 

976
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,800
of it, one of us wheat. 
That is that that sorry that is 

977
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:21,100
the, you know, the epitome of me
of to me of loving teaching and 

978
00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:24,800
making those unbelievable 
experiences for the kids because

979
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,400
Just going above and beyond and 
those and it wouldn't have taken

980
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,600
much with it for you to put some
shades on and go in the other 

981
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,000
room, but those small choices, 
we can make you that those 

982
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,500
children will remember that the 
whole time. 

983
00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:36,000
They'll always remember that. 
That's, that's amazing. 

984
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,400
But you said to me, and what 
would you think of when you 

985
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,100
think of English in my mind went
blank and one little, it was 

986
00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:44,800
always like a little jokes, the 
kids knew and I was really 

987
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,100
passionate about maths. 
And so when it was sad as that, 

988
00:51:48,100 --> 00:51:50,300
you know, they would do the 
reading first and then they 

989
00:51:50,300 --> 00:51:53,400
would do this bag. 
So we just come in like dressed 

990
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,200
normally and then All our team 
we used to get dressed up for 

991
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:02,300
mass. 
That means that's really funny. 

992
00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:08,400
That might have worked less well
if English wasn't first. 

993
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:09,200
Yeah. 
Okay. 

994
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,200
Panicking when they came. 
It's fine. 

995
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:14,600
It's just English guys. 
No problem. 

996
00:52:15,900 --> 00:52:18,500
That's so funny. 
I love that Gareth. 

997
00:52:18,500 --> 00:52:21,100
It's been an absolute pleasure. 
I think we're going to round it 

998
00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:23,700
off there. 
I can't believe how useful this 

999
00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:26,100
has been you know. 
We're like we're misleads. 

1000
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:28,700
Now, we've been teaching for 
upwards of ten years and we 

1001
00:52:28,700 --> 00:52:30,600
still got so much out of that 
chat. 

1002
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,800
And I think the one thing we 
want from this is to be able to 

1003
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,500
share with people who are less 
experienced potentially or even 

1004
00:52:36,500 --> 00:52:39,100
the same experienced and just 
realize that it's just a 

1005
00:52:39,107 --> 00:52:41,700
constant Learning Journey. 
And there's always something to 

1006
00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:45,300
think about and to develop on 
and you've shown that perfectly.

1007
00:52:45,300 --> 00:52:47,400
So huge. 
Thank you for coming on go. 

1008
00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:48,900
Well thanks. 
I have really enjoyed it. 

1009
00:52:48,900 --> 00:52:50,900
So anytime, you know, 
deliberately if you'll ever 

1010
00:52:50,900 --> 00:52:52,700
having back at a lot to come 
with, thanks. 

1011
00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:00,600
Wow, Dylan was an amazing chat. 
How do you feel after that? 

1012
00:53:01,900 --> 00:53:03,700
It's just it's one of those 
moments isn't it? 

1013
00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:05,400
You know, we spoke to Sophie 
recently. 

1014
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,300
I finished that chat and I was 
just so, you know, enthused 

1015
00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:11,000
again and I just got the same 
feeling after talking to Gareth 

1016
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,200
and I think it's such a positive
thing to have because we got a 

1017
00:53:15,207 --> 00:53:16,400
lot of comments that we hate 
them. 

1018
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,300
Start this podcast there. 
Oh gosh. 

1019
00:53:18,300 --> 00:53:21,400
Teaching a or, you know, and we 
were really worried about that 

1020
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,900
we were given off that kind of 
Aura of the negative things, but

1021
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,600
you know that it's so true. 
What you said it just it. 

1022
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:31,500
Excites you to listen to these 
people who are complete. 

1023
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,200
Experts in what they do. 
And you know, it's no secret 

1024
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,000
that we love maths and listening
to him. 

1025
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,000
Talk about it. 
And I think what was really 

1026
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,500
reassuring was two things for 
me. 

1027
00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:41,300
Maybe you can, you can expand on
these. 

1028
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,400
Number one was that he was just 
as open with, he gets things 

1029
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,100
wrong constantly because there 
can be this or around these kind

1030
00:53:47,100 --> 00:53:49,600
of personalities online that 
they're just these amazing 

1031
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,000
people who get it right all the 
time. 

1032
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,900
That's really, really put a 
really, really positive. 

1033
00:53:52,900 --> 00:53:54,500
I think a message to have for 
everyone positive. 

1034
00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:56,900
All other thing was positive 
aura. 

1035
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,500
The second reveal to my second 
thing. 

1036
00:54:01,700 --> 00:54:06,200
Was the fact that he kind of was
on the same page as us. 

1037
00:54:06,500 --> 00:54:09,200
I found that really positive as 
well and kind of, you know, 

1038
00:54:09,700 --> 00:54:12,300
giving us that kind of thumbs up
to say, no, you are doing the 

1039
00:54:12,308 --> 00:54:14,200
right thing. 
You do think of it this way and 

1040
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,400
you do know what you're doing 
and I got that from that as 

1041
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,900
well. 
I personally felt that Beyond 

1042
00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:24,600
his Aura, we actually gave, we 
actually in all seriousness, we 

1043
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,700
gained basically like a private 
CPD session because he was so 

1044
00:54:28,700 --> 00:54:33,000
full of knowledge and made Made 
me think so much about my own 

1045
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,100
practice by the end of it. 
I was like in my own head kind 

1046
00:54:36,100 --> 00:54:38,100
of like I am at the end of a CPD
session. 

1047
00:54:38,500 --> 00:54:39,800
Professional development 
session. 

1048
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,500
I know I do it all the time. 
Just say random jogging pedagogy

1049
00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:44,800
pedagogy. 
Yeah, my pedagogy. 

1050
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:46,900
I'm on dirt. 
That's not decile jargon. 

1051
00:54:46,900 --> 00:54:49,200
That's just me being a fool. 
Go back and listen to our 

1052
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,400
previous episodes if you don't 
know, I'm talking about, but 

1053
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:56,700
yeah, Gareth was incredible at 
just unpicking the questions we 

1054
00:54:56,700 --> 00:55:00,100
had and then just delivering 
some amazing like insights based

1055
00:55:00,100 --> 00:55:03,000
on his experience and his Career
obviously, in the, in the 

1056
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:04,600
teaching world. 
So very, very grateful to have 

1057
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,400
that conversation and it's 
definitely definitely going to 

1058
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,100
impact the way I teach in my 
next lessons, this term 

1059
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,200
hopefully even next year again 
because there are so many 

1060
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:18,200
exciting things that he reminded
me of of from you know, early on

1061
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,400
in my career. 
When I just had more time, maybe

1062
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,800
I guess to devote to certain 
things and I just, I miss doing 

1063
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,900
them. 
I think one thing he said that 

1064
00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:31,900
I've definitely picked up on and
it's on that theme of like it's 

1065
00:55:31,900 --> 00:55:34,600
okay to get things wrong but 
it's even more specific and it 

1066
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,100
was that idea of individual 
schools were on different 

1067
00:55:37,100 --> 00:55:39,900
Journeys in their, in their kind
of progress on different 

1068
00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:43,300
curriculums and the idea of you 
know, he's very fortunate to be 

1069
00:55:43,300 --> 00:55:46,300
able to just focus on maths. 
I think teachers beat themselves

1070
00:55:46,300 --> 00:55:47,800
up a lot. 
I know I certainly do when I 

1071
00:55:47,808 --> 00:55:51,000
think you know, if I did just 
spend two more hours doing this 

1072
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:52,700
thing. 
Then the this sequence of 

1073
00:55:52,707 --> 00:55:56,200
lessons may have been much more 
enjoyable or way more engaging 

1074
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,200
but we just Just don't have that
time because we're being pulled 

1075
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,300
in five different directions and
I think that idea that he had 

1076
00:56:02,308 --> 00:56:05,500
his very clear and I think it's 
really easy for people like 

1077
00:56:05,500 --> 00:56:08,100
Gareth people like ours. 
Even as mathletes in school to 

1078
00:56:08,100 --> 00:56:11,100
have a really narrow focus on 
our own subject and just think, 

1079
00:56:11,100 --> 00:56:14,600
okay, I've had some CPD on this.
I think this is going to be 

1080
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,700
transformative for the school, 
have all the best of intentions 

1081
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,700
but then end up actually 
inflicting, huge levels of 

1082
00:56:20,700 --> 00:56:24,300
workload stress and it being a 
negative outcome and people 

1083
00:56:24,300 --> 00:56:26,700
don't feel as enthused as you. 
And you think well why not and 

1084
00:56:26,900 --> 00:56:29,200
Obey. 
So answer is, it's just down to 

1085
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,300
time, they're probably very, 
very, very up for having this 

1086
00:56:32,300 --> 00:56:35,300
professional development, but 
they just physically can't 

1087
00:56:35,300 --> 00:56:36,100
manage it. 
You're right. 

1088
00:56:36,100 --> 00:56:38,200
We all have our own passions and
that what, you know, that was 

1089
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,600
our passion and that's his 
passion, he can put that time 

1090
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,200
in. 
So I think the kind of summary 

1091
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,200
of his message. 
Is if you're passionate about a 

1092
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:49,300
subject, just quit your job and 
then subjects all the time. 

1093
00:56:49,300 --> 00:56:51,700
I hope Gareth, I have, you know,
how many joking? 

1094
00:56:51,700 --> 00:56:55,300
Of course, I've got to tell you 
do something. 

1095
00:56:55,300 --> 00:56:56,700
Maybe we could talk about now 
quickly. 

1096
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:58,900
It's just a thought on that 
because I thought at the time 

1097
00:56:59,300 --> 00:57:02,000
and it's something that's been 
thrown about in previous schools

1098
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,000
that I've worked in, as a 
genuine suggestion. 

1099
00:57:04,100 --> 00:57:07,800
As to the way of splitting up, 
your staff, is you find with 

1100
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:11,100
teachers, a lot of the time just
naturally, they fall on one side

1101
00:57:11,100 --> 00:57:14,500
of the, of the wall Bay, they're
either going to be preferring 

1102
00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:16,600
teaching maths or praying 
teaching English and that could 

1103
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,900
be preference in terms of 
enjoyment or it could be 

1104
00:57:18,900 --> 00:57:20,500
preference in terms of how good 
they feel. 

1105
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:23,300
They are at delivering that 
curriculum and the idea is 

1106
00:57:23,300 --> 00:57:26,100
trying about never went to any 
further and wonder if any 

1107
00:57:26,100 --> 00:57:29,300
schools anyone Thing has tried 
this before was the idea of 

1108
00:57:29,300 --> 00:57:32,500
splitting staff not just by year
group and teaching math and 

1109
00:57:32,500 --> 00:57:36,100
English in the morning, but 
splitting staff through subject 

1110
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,300
and you have some teachers who 
may be lower school, have maths 

1111
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:43,000
first session and an upper 
school have mass second session 

1112
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,100
and you'd get one teacher who 
would teach a math lesson, lot 

1113
00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:48,400
of school and after break t to 
math lessons in their in their 

1114
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,300
upper school and then you'd also
have like almost like a ped 

1115
00:57:51,300 --> 00:57:54,800
English teacher who had take the
class at the opposite times for 

1116
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:56,300
English. 
If they were more specialized in

1117
00:57:56,300 --> 00:57:59,400
English or preferred English and
you know as someone who 

1118
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,400
naturally gravitates towards 
maths, my ears pricked up at 

1119
00:58:02,408 --> 00:58:05,000
that idea. 
And you think that maybe I'd be 

1120
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,700
on the side of doing that but I 
tell you what I'm interested to 

1121
00:58:07,707 --> 00:58:11,500
see what you think. 
I don't think that that would 

1122
00:58:11,500 --> 00:58:15,000
necessarily be automatically 
beneficial for the children or 

1123
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,400
for the staff to do that 
constantly throughout. 

1124
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:20,300
I don't know if it's really hard
when I think it depends on your 

1125
00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:23,500
level of passion because I don't
think many not many people are 

1126
00:58:23,500 --> 00:58:26,300
as passionate by know that we're
on the extreme end of like 

1127
00:58:26,300 --> 00:58:27,200
passion. 
Laughs. 

1128
00:58:27,500 --> 00:58:30,100
And some people might just 
prefer it a little bit more, but

1129
00:58:30,100 --> 00:58:32,100
two things I actually did that 
for a while. 

1130
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,700
I don't know if you remember, it
was a long time ago but it was 

1131
00:58:34,707 --> 00:58:37,600
only for a term or two. 
But I did actually do that where

1132
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,300
I taught maths further, the, in 
the place before the time before

1133
00:58:41,300 --> 00:58:43,200
break. 
And then I went to a different 

1134
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:46,800
year group and I taught maths 
again in after break time, and I

1135
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,100
thoroughly enjoyed it personally
like doing that. 

1136
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,000
And I also know someone who did 
it for a year, a different 

1137
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,100
school. 
They went and only taught Maths 

1138
00:58:55,100 --> 00:58:57,900
for a whole year. 
And they said they absolutely 

1139
00:58:57,900 --> 00:59:01,000
loved it, but they also said, 
they felt really these Guild 

1140
00:59:01,300 --> 00:59:04,200
coming back to a normal normal 
environment and teaching at the 

1141
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,200
other subjects, and in the long 
term, it wasn't remotely 

1142
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:10,000
beneficial but it was an 
enjoyable time while it lasted. 

1143
00:59:10,100 --> 00:59:15,200
So, you know, pros and cons. 
I guess, I suppose, that's the 

1144
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:16,800
point. 
I guess that, if you are going 

1145
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,400
to continue being a classroom 
teacher over you, if you don't 

1146
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:22,500
necessarily have the ability to 
stop what you're doing and put 

1147
00:59:22,500 --> 00:59:25,500
all your time to mass because 
someone has driven as Gareth is 

1148
00:59:25,500 --> 00:59:29,000
so successful, he's able Do that
then there is that risk isn't 

1149
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,500
there actually, you know, well, 
you know it, what is the reason 

1150
00:59:31,500 --> 00:59:32,800
that you're less passionate 
about English? 

1151
00:59:32,900 --> 00:59:35,100
I actually thoroughly enjoy 
teaching English as well. 

1152
00:59:35,100 --> 00:59:37,100
I'm just so passionate about 
maths at this kind of a 

1153
00:59:37,107 --> 00:59:39,600
disparity there. 
Some might say, but I still love

1154
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,600
teaching English and there's a 
lot I get out of teaching 

1155
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:45,800
English, but if I was to stop 
doing that completely, I'm not 

1156
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,100
sure that I'd be a better 
teacher for it and I'm going to 

1157
00:59:48,100 --> 00:59:50,200
continue being a teacher. 
Now, if I was to become a 

1158
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,700
specialist and just focus on 
math resources, then maybe that 

1159
00:59:52,700 --> 00:59:56,800
doesn't matter as much, but I 
think potentially that that It 

1160
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,000
wouldn't be a positive for 
someone who especially let's say

1161
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,500
I move school at some point and 
they don't offer that. 

1162
01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:05,500
Yeah, it'll be really stuck in a
in a place there of Old English 

1163
01:00:05,500 --> 01:00:07,200
I've not done this for five 
years, you know. 

1164
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,600
Well we see this in peed on me 
all the time. 

1165
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,900
It's quite a quite a common 
thing that schools will wiring 

1166
01:00:12,900 --> 01:00:15,300
like PE coordinators and coaches
and teams and things. 

1167
01:00:15,300 --> 01:00:18,400
So to run their PE curriculum. 
Essentially and then teachers of

1168
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,400
those schools go and get another
job Five, Ten Years Later where 

1169
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,800
they have to teach PE twice a 
week and they have absolutely no

1170
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:27,100
idea how and there's always this
dialogue, isn't there of We 

1171
01:00:27,100 --> 01:00:28,700
should be really, really 
careful. 

1172
01:00:28,700 --> 01:00:33,000
Not to descale ourselves for a, 
like, a temporary convenience, 

1173
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:35,800
or is just a convenience at the 
school because you just don't 

1174
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,400
know what's going to be required
of you later on. 

1175
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,500
And if that is a general 
requirement, that, you teach, 

1176
01:00:40,500 --> 01:00:43,000
but if that's like part of the 
job, which it is teaching 

1177
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,900
English, teaching PE is 
generally considered part of the

1178
01:00:45,900 --> 01:00:49,500
job than you probably should be 
careful to take cot. 

1179
01:00:49,500 --> 01:00:51,200
Like I really bespoke role at 
the school. 

1180
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,900
You work in where you don't 
teach particular subjects just 

1181
01:00:54,900 --> 01:00:56,600
in case, you know, but it was in
different. 

1182
01:00:56,700 --> 01:00:59,200
Positions, you might be 
confident that that's that's all

1183
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:00,300
you're going to do till you 
retire. 

1184
01:01:00,300 --> 01:01:03,000
There's no, there's no risk 
there, but like you said, if 

1185
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,500
you're going to if you just, you
just plan on being a teacher, 

1186
01:01:05,500 --> 01:01:08,600
you never know if you're 
descaling yourself and like 

1187
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:10,400
Gareth touched on. 
Actually, without those 

1188
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,000
opportunities for him to just 
focus on maths, he would not 

1189
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:16,000
have nearly enough time to dive 
into those kind of deep-rooted 

1190
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,100
problem solving and and think 
about ways to help teachers on 

1191
01:01:19,100 --> 01:01:22,300
the macro level. 
So, it is double edged sword. 

1192
01:01:22,300 --> 01:01:23,300
I don't think there's an answer 
here. 

1193
01:01:23,300 --> 01:01:24,900
I think you've got to do what's 
right for you. 

1194
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,200
And, you know, It's going to be 
one of our class discussions 

1195
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:29,400
here. 
We don't really fall on one 

1196
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:31,800
side. 
We just say, well there's it, 

1197
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:35,200
yeah, it's very interesting. 
Yeah, I'm not sure not sure 

1198
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:36,000
where I fall on that. 
You know what? 

1199
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,300
Those one question we didn't ask
Gareth and I wish we had time, 

1200
01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:41,300
we had to get it back on. 
We're gonna have to gain back on

1201
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,300
one day in the future because I 
really wanted to ask Gareth 

1202
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,400
about his opinions on Russia. 
Soon. 

1203
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,600
Acts kind of Bill other. 
There's a bill or move towards 

1204
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:52,500
making everyone do Master till 
they're 18. 

1205
01:01:52,500 --> 01:01:54,700
That's right, isn't it? 
Yeah, yeah. 

1206
01:01:54,700 --> 01:01:55,900
That's that was in the news 
recently. 

1207
01:01:55,900 --> 01:01:58,000
And that was, that was a big 
out. 

1208
01:01:58,000 --> 01:01:59,800
Quite it's, it was such a weird 
one for me. 

1209
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,800
I don't about you hate him 
because my gut instinct, when I 

1210
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:07,000
heard that was, I feel like 
there is a lot of math anxiety 

1211
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,700
in the adult population. 
I feel like a lot of people are 

1212
01:02:10,700 --> 01:02:14,200
way more accepting that. 
Oh, I don't do maths in a way 

1213
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:15,500
that we never see for reading 
you. 

1214
01:02:15,500 --> 01:02:17,100
Let's see, we're going around 
saying, no, I don't read. 

1215
01:02:17,100 --> 01:02:19,100
There's a, there's a stigma 
around not being able to read 

1216
01:02:19,300 --> 01:02:21,700
being illiterate and we need to 
help those people as much as 

1217
01:02:21,700 --> 01:02:23,600
possible. 
But we do get more that people. 

1218
01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:25,500
I'll tend to get more 
embarrassment from saying they 

1219
01:02:25,500 --> 01:02:27,900
can't read. 
Whereas when it comes to mass 

1220
01:02:27,900 --> 01:02:30,500
it's sometimes worn as a bad. 
Oh, I don't do numbers me. 

1221
01:02:30,700 --> 01:02:34,100
And that anything that can kind 
of help that attitude, we saw it

1222
01:02:34,100 --> 01:02:36,500
during during the lockdown, sand
and covid. 

1223
01:02:36,500 --> 01:02:39,200
And things, the statistics that 
were brought out daily. 

1224
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:43,100
There are people who just kind 
of didn't really understand what

1225
01:02:43,100 --> 01:02:46,200
they were looking at, because 
they never had to, you know, 

1226
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,600
progress day am sorry digest 
data in such huge amounts. 

1227
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:52,700
They lie and they relied on 
people interpreting it for them.

1228
01:02:52,700 --> 01:02:56,600
And I think there's There's a 
lot to be said for people being 

1229
01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:00,500
helped in maths more does making
it compulsory until 18 solve 

1230
01:03:00,500 --> 01:03:02,300
that problem. 
I don't think it should also 

1231
01:03:02,300 --> 01:03:05,200
solves the problem bit. 
Better Garrus idea of teaching 

1232
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,700
children and young adults about 
the emotional side of mass. 

1233
01:03:08,700 --> 01:03:12,000
I reducing that anxiety by 
tackling it in a different way. 

1234
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,900
I think our country is obsessed 
with do more. 

1235
01:03:14,900 --> 01:03:17,100
More is better. 
That is like the approach to a 

1236
01:03:17,100 --> 01:03:20,900
lot of things is like do do more
people don't like maths can't do

1237
01:03:20,900 --> 01:03:23,600
math, do more. 
It's like yeah you know it is a 

1238
01:03:23,700 --> 01:03:28,000
A bit deeper than that. 
So my gut reaction was is, was 

1239
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,600
was like that's a stupid idea. 
Stupid idea. 

1240
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:34,300
Making people do masturbating 
like, yeah, if someone's got to 

1241
01:03:34,300 --> 01:03:37,900
16 and they hate math and can't 
do it, and they've just got kind

1242
01:03:37,900 --> 01:03:40,900
of completely detach themselves 
from it, is putting them through

1243
01:03:40,900 --> 01:03:42,700
two more years of that going to 
be highly beneficial. 

1244
01:03:42,700 --> 01:03:45,800
I think, like everything ever, 
we have to go back to the root 

1245
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,400
cause and not to get political, 
but to get political because we 

1246
01:03:48,408 --> 01:03:50,400
like to do that. 
Sometimes you do I feel like 

1247
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:53,200
it's another Band-Aid rather 
than a cause of the root 

1248
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:54,700
problem. 
You know, this huge problem in 

1249
01:03:54,700 --> 01:03:57,800
retains retaining teachers and 
and recruiting them, okay? 

1250
01:03:57,800 --> 01:03:59,400
We'll put the starting salary up
a bit. 

1251
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:01,000
Okay. 
Does that help retention? 

1252
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:02,700
No. 
You know, they said it's another

1253
01:04:02,700 --> 01:04:06,100
sticky plaster on something 
rather than getting to the root 

1254
01:04:06,100 --> 01:04:09,000
cause of actually trying to fix 
it and I think you're right and 

1255
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:12,200
I think what Garrison's? 
Right is the further back you go

1256
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,500
and start to earlier on actually
that path then doesn't have to 

1257
01:04:15,508 --> 01:04:17,100
be longer. 
It can be shorter but it's a 

1258
01:04:17,107 --> 01:04:18,700
better path to be on in the 
first place. 

1259
01:04:18,700 --> 01:04:20,700
Yeah. 
Well luckily rishi's a listener 

1260
01:04:20,700 --> 01:04:23,900
and Avid listener actually of 
our podcast as could all Your 

1261
01:04:23,900 --> 01:04:26,400
friends be if you share this 
podcast with a with your 

1262
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,300
buddies, I just saying oh is 
that good? 

1263
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:31,000
Is that good thing? 
Was that was that was good. 

1264
01:04:31,100 --> 01:04:33,600
Yes it's something Hayden. 
Listen we've read, we read the 

1265
01:04:33,607 --> 01:04:34,900
guides. 
We have to say as much as 

1266
01:04:34,900 --> 01:04:37,200
possible you know it's cringy 
but yeah I love that. 

1267
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:40,100
That's really good and you know 
we are on Twitter now so you 

1268
01:04:40,100 --> 01:04:41,400
could retweet. 
It will experience. 

1269
01:04:44,900 --> 01:04:47,300
They're gonna love this chair. 
That we've just had guys. 

1270
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:52,400
I've got what I've got. 
Hey guys, we want you to 

1271
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:56,000
retweet. 
This if you like teaching 

1272
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:01,500
spoken, like a spoken, like a 
true man, who uses Twitter and 

1273
01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:05,500
definitely isn't Wing. 
It marketing 101, guys, thank 

1274
01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:07,200
you so much for listening. 
Hope you found that as useful 

1275
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:09,600
and amazing as we did and we'll 
catch you next time.