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Hello everyone, welcome back to 
another episode of TC Repeats. 

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My name is Dylan and my name is 
Hayden. 

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And this is a question and 
answer episode. 

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As always on a Monday starting 
off your week, right? 

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You're on the way to school, 
work, walking, whatever. 

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You're part time. 
You're not. 

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I don't know, I don't know what 
you're doing, but you know 

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you're about to listen to this 
fantastic question and answer 

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from our lovely community. 
You can join our WhatsApp down 

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below. 
It's completely free and you get

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to submit questions. 
Why don't leave us A rating as 

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well whilst you're here? 
You've not even listened to it 

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yet. 
Just assume it'll be 5 stars. 

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Yeah, go on, Hayden Stars. 
Off, if you've listened to other

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ones, then you can give us five 
stars for that anyway. 

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Right. 
So there's a win win. 

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It's a win win. 
Precisely. 

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All right, jumping in then first
question. 

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My school has just introduced a 
shout out wall and I've started 

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putting fruit out in the staff 
room. 

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I'm only laughing because I know
your reaction already. 

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By the way, I'm not laughing. 
I know what's happening. 

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I'll cut to you. 
I'm not laughing. 

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Yeah, I've started putting fruit
out in the staff room. 

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That is free for anyone who 
wants it. 

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It's nice all of this is being 
implemented by our well-being 

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lead as a way to boost 
well-being among staff. 

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Am IA Scrooge for not buying 
into this at all. 

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I know for a fact that the 
reasons people have for their 

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well-being being low is nothing 
to do with having a free banana,

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but more to do with draconian 
policies in planning and 

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marking. 
And. 

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I've I've always found horrible 
marking policies that keep me 

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there for two hours just breeze 
by kind of grapes next to me we 

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go one tick 1 grape got me for 
it. 

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This is why I was smirking. 
I'm looking up at you because I 

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knew. 
I knew. 

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Joe, this is a classic case of 
yeah, that this is a classic 

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case of when something's 
introduced which is obviously 

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nice. 
Yeah. 

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Isn't too lovely. 
Like, you can have two thoughts 

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here. 
It's obviously nice to call 

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someone out for doing a good 
job. 

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That's a lovely thing. 
What's that? 

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Free fruit? 
That's a great nice thing. 

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It's good. 
It's lovely. 

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It's when that's conflated with 
if someone dares to suggest that

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that maybe isn't going to solve 
well-being, someone goes, don't 

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you want the nice things? 
You're just so negative all the 

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time. 
I put a lovely thing on the wall

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up there to say thank you for 
printing my sheets for me. 

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Does that not make you happy? 
That's not the core of my 

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problem in this school, isn't 
that there's a well-being board 

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where I can shout someone out 
and have a banana whilst I'm 

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doing it. 
OK. 

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Oh my God, two things can 
happen, do I? 

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Think someone doesn't like 
fruit? 

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I'm I'm partial to a pair. 
But it's not going to. 

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Solve if my if my well-being is 
poor in a school, it's it's 

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usually down to other things 
like in this question, which 

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they've used the word draconian.
One of my favourite words to use

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draconian policies or I'm 
planning on marking. 

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That's what's pushing teachers 
to exhaustion. 

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Yeah, it's not. 
It's not whether I've got a an 

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acceptable spread of fruit on 
the on the table, and it's not. 

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I'm sorry. 
Yeah, I preferred it when it was

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doughnuts. 
Thank you. 

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Yeah, you're, you're in your 
last legs and you go to the star

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room, you're like, they've taken
the doughnuts. 

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Yeah, it's not even a sprinkled 
doughnut. 

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What do you think? 
Am I being hot? 

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You're being quite funny like 
that. 

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That's. 
A nice compliment. 

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Dylan's been funny for the first
time. 

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We nearly made it to 200 
episodes without being funny. 

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So there we go. 
I try and be reasonable. 

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OK, is this person being a 
Scrooge or being a bit bummed 

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out by it? 
Right. 

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A tiny, tiny bit, Scrooge. 
That's it. 

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Only a tiny bit. 
For all the reasons you just 

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said. 
I think it, I think if your 

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opinion was this is all 
pointless, don't bother doing it

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at all is a bit a bit harsh to 
the other side in terms of like,

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like you said, it is still nice 
to do these things. 

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It's still nice to provide your 
staff with some fruit if the 

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baseline was nothing before. 
It's still nice to shout out 

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people if no one was being 
shouted out before. 

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But I do agree with the overall 
sentiment, which is it is 

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solving nothing though. 
It's solving nothing like no 

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problems are being solved. 
It's a nice addition to the 

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school. 
It's almost separate. 

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It gets banded in with, oh, this
is part of the solution to 

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well-being. 
No, it's not. 

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The well-being problem sits over
here, right? 

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This thing that you've 
implemented is just a nice 

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addition to other nice things 
that might happen in the school.

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Like it actually has to me, 
nothing to do with it. 

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My well-being is not affected by
those things. 

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My well-being is affected by, 
like you said, the draconian 

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policies that the workload, the 
things that actually stress me 

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out. 
You don't like, I feel like you 

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don't. 
You don't counter stress by 

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maintaining the things that 
stress you out. 

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But if you do an equal amount of
nice stuff that doesn't like 

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counterbalance the stress, you 
know what I mean? 

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You just have nice things in 
your life and also are still. 

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Stressed the stress is still. 
There you have to the only way 

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to counter the stress is to cure
the thing that's that's causing 

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the stress is my is probably 
what I'm trying to say here. 

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So yeah, unless you are as a 
school also alongside this, 

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because it is nice alongside 
this trying to tackle the root 

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issues of what's making your 
staff feel like crap all the 

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time, then you're not really 
tackling this problem, you're 

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just kind of superficially 
saying something. 

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And I do genuinely find that 
when we get people right in 

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about this, because it's not the
first time we've heard this, it 

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normally comes under the caveat 
of this is quite a toxic school.

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Not always, obviously, yeah, But
this is quite a toxic school. 

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And this is their way of 
pretending they're addressing a 

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problem. 
That's a very common thing. 

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I hear this. 
Because because the the other 

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side to that is this, this does 
exist in nice schools, right? 

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To me, exactly. 
To me, this is like this is like

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an air freshener. 
OK, so these these no, genuinely

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these, these well-being room, 
like there's a nice board, 

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there's some fruit out that's 
like an air freshener. 

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You go into a room. 
OK, might be a lovely room. 

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Adding a bit of air freshener 
will be nice, wouldn't it? 

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It's a good. 
No one would go. 

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Why are you doing air freshener?
It's pointless. 

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That's a lovely room. 
And now it smells good. 

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Yeah. 
Imagine there's a pile of dog in

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the middle of the room. 
And you walk in and you go, I'll

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solve this. 
And you'll think, oh, great, 

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they're gonna get rid of that 
dog. 

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They're gonna get rid of it 
because it stinks. 

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It's a horrendous room to be in 
a hate. 

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Or at least half it just. 
Just walk in. 

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Just get rid of it. 
No, just get rid of it. 

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Get complete. 
Finally someone's come in. 

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It's the well-being lead. 
They're gonna come in. 

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They're gonna get rid of this 
pile of poo in the middle of the

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room, thank God. 
And they come in with some 

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Febreze and just spray it. 
There you go. 

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No, it doesn't work. 
You. 

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Yeah, But breeze. 
Nice. 

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Yeah, of course. 
Yeah, it's great. 

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Thank you. 
But do you know it's going to 

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keep permeating the smell of the
faeces from the dog that's in 

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the middle of this room? 
We're not addressing the 

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problem. 
We're just dressing it up. 

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Oh, my God. 
Like, you can have air freshener

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that's nice. 
In another room where there's 

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also no poo. 
That's great. 

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OK, that's a good analogy. 
I hate how good that is annoys 

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me how perfectly what that 
summarises it, right. 

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So I've been funny and I've 
annoyed you. 

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How good because it's true, 
because like you said, like it 

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was a really important point is 
you can go into room that 

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doesn't have the dog poop in it 
and still and still spray the 

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air freshener and it's still a 
nice boost to that room. 

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It's still a plus. 
Exactly. 

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But in the room where there's 
dogs in the carpet in the 

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middle, Yeah, it's not really 
solving the issue. 

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And everyone would just go, oh, 
that's nice, thanks. 

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They feel awkward because 
they're what they're really 

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thinking is, oh, that probably 
wasn't the best thing to do. 

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You dare to question it, the 
person with the spray just goes.

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Don't you like Blossom? 
Berries. 

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Oh, turns out you like the 
smell, do you? 

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You'll live with that instead 
then. 

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So, so that, that, that 
basically summarises my 

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thoughts. 
So funny is is OK, it can be a 

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nice thing, but also not 
remotely do the job you're 

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pretending it does. 
Yeah, definitely, definitely OK.

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That's it. 
I feel like I feel like we've 

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perfectly answered that. 
I think it's the first question 

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we've ever had in this podcast 
where I feel like I'm totally, 

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perfectly satisfied that we have
solved the issue and answered 

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every anyone that has this 
question, we've solved it for 

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you. 
Listen to what we just. 

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Said And it's only taken 
literally hundreds of questions 

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at this point. 
Right next one, let's have a 

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read. 
Last week a child child in my 

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year eight class told me to fuck
off. 

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Oh step straight in, there we 
go. 

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Not messing around this week are
we right? 

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And was genuinely back in my 
classroom within 30 minutes from

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the inclusion room with a broad 
grin on their face. 

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Not only did I feel completely 
undermined as a professional, 

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but every kid in my class was 
then thinking oh it's OK, 

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anything goes. 
Why are we pretending this is 

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the way to deal with behaviours 
like this? 

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It's actually a big question. 
So yeah, I was just thinking. 

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I was like, I could dive loosely
into this. 

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But you don't wanna get 
cancelled. 

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I don't wanna get cancelled, OK?
I don't swear on this podcast 

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for a start. 
That's the first line I've 

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cancelled now. 
It's tricky, isn't it? 

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Cuz my first thought as you were
reading it right was they came 

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back after 30 minutes. 
My genuine first thought was, 

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OK, maybe, maybe the thing that 
needed to happen happened and 

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we're trying to include this 
child back into education. 

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I don't necessarily have an 
immediate issue with that. 

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As soon as I heard with a broad 
grin on their face, I was like, 

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oh, now, now my. 
It's crazy how quickly that 

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flipped my opinion. 
And then I was then thinking, 

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yeah, that's completely 
unacceptable. 

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They're coming back in. 
They have not that there's 

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nothing to. 
Happen. 

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No apology. 
No apology like they felt 

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undermined. 
I would feel undermined. 

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I don't know about you, but if 
that happened to me, I would 

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feel undermined because because 
I 30 minutes ago used my 

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authority as a teacher to make 
the decision that that person 

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should no longer be in this room
for the sake of everybody else 

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and themselves. 
The fact they've come in 30 

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minutes later, clearly nothing 
has changed because they're 

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coming in grinning is 1 showing 
like it to me. 

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It's like it's basically them 
saying to me, ha ha, you try to 

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enforce this rule and Get Me Out
of the class, but look where it 

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look, I'm back. 
Well, let's let's. 

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I mean, to a degree, but when I 
send someone out of the class, 

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I, you know, them coming back in
isn't automatically bad to me. 

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No, like like the the issues for
me comes not in the fact they've

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come back. 
Like it's that they've come 

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00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,360
back. 
But there's no adult with them 

228
00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,920
explaining, you know, what's or 
seeing how they're getting on 

229
00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,840
or, or seeing they settle back 
in the class. 

230
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,760
It's very much just like back to
being your problem. 

231
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,800
There's no intermediate, like, 
like professional in the middle 

232
00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,160
to be like, well, I'm literally 
delivering this lesson to this 

233
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,760
class now. 
I I don't have the time and 

234
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,200
energy to solve this right now 
at the level it needs to be 

235
00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:19,840
because it would mean that I 
have to stop my lesson. 

236
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,960
Yeah, I would hope someone else 
did that and then brought them 

237
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:23,560
back in. 
And then there was an apology 

238
00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:24,680
and then there was an 
explanation. 

239
00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:28,320
And then I know what happened. 
Some kind of communication like 

240
00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,360
the the act of them coming back 
into the class probably I can 

241
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,920
imagine can work. 
There can be examples like that.

242
00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:34,640
OK. 
Yeah, that's kind of. 

243
00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,360
What I was trying to say, you 
know, when I said when, when you

244
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,520
started saying it, my first 
thought was that and then the 

245
00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,200
grin on the face, like, change 
it for me a little. 

246
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,120
Bit but is it but but does it? 
Do you care if they're happy or 

247
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:44,920
not? 
Like again, I can imagine 

248
00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,600
something going out, something 
happening and a kid like do I 

249
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:49,920
want them to sulk for the rest 
of the day? 

250
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,520
And that's the only way I'll be 
happy as a profession. 

251
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,760
I know under my. 
But let's clarify this could be 

252
00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,160
really clear. 
The broad grin on their face. 

253
00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,160
I very much I'm interpreting 
that as like a a smarmy way with

254
00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,560
it smarmy look, not just a I'm 
happy now like because that's. 

255
00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:03,760
I have no problem with that. 
He came in and gave me the look 

256
00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:05,880
of like ner ner. 
Yeah, like and was like. 

257
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,360
Being with the whole context. 
Exactly. 

258
00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,360
Because that's what I'm 
imagining, the context of this 

259
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:10,640
question. 
I'm imagining that's the case, 

260
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:11,680
right? 
That's why they start, because I

261
00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:12,680
wouldn't feel on the mind 
otherwise. 

262
00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,600
They come in happy and start 
getting on with the lesson. 

263
00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,280
I'd be like, brilliant, yeah, 
whoever. 

264
00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,440
They've been out for 30 minutes.
They've done their job because 

265
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,240
this, this person is now settled
and they're getting all of their

266
00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:21,880
work and they're happy. 
That's the ultimate outcome. 

267
00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,000
But if they're coming in and 
showing off at the fact that 

268
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,280
they're back in the class, yeah.
And greeting at the teacher like

269
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,520
like I don't care. 
Do you think there's a line 

270
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,800
where what happens means that 
actually, do you know what, for 

271
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,480
this lesson, you shouldn't be 
coming back in this is this 

272
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,160
lesson done? 
For example, you've got to 

273
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,320
remember the point here was a 
child told a teacher to fuck 

274
00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:39,160
off. 
Yeah. 

275
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,320
Like it is. 
Is that past the point of just 

276
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,320
like, OK, why don't you off then
Basically, like obviously 

277
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,360
wouldn't say that to the child, 
but why don't you just get 

278
00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,560
that's just ridiculous, 
unacceptable completely. 

279
00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:51,560
I think there is a line, yeah, 
so. 

280
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,960
Like in terms of as a teacher, 
I'm just flipping it again, just

281
00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:56,240
trying to find where the line is
here. 

282
00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,160
Is it acceptable if a child told
you to do that in the middle of 

283
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:00,880
the class? 
I think it's well within the 

284
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:02,720
right to the teacher to say, 
cool, I'm not teaching you 

285
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:03,880
today. 
Yeah, 100%. 

286
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,640
So, so in that case them coming 
in can be do you know that's 

287
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,360
what I was getting at earlier. 
Is there a line here? 

288
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:09,280
It's another. 
Yeah, exactly. 

289
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:10,880
That's why it's such complex 
questions because there's so 

290
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:11,880
many ways you can think about 
this. 

291
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,200
But I absolutely do think that 
teachers are human beings in 

292
00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,480
there as well. 
Like they're not just robots who

293
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,840
just get on with, who work 
perfectly efficiently all the 

294
00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,240
time. 
If a child told me to F off in 

295
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,360
the middle of a lesson, it's 
going to rattle me. 

296
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,920
Of course I'm a human being. 
And if I see them 30 minutes 

297
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,320
later after I've just used the 
school policy to remove them 

298
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,840
from the room because it's 
completely and totally 

299
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,120
unacceptable and they come back 
in 5 minutes later, I'm 

300
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:33,960
obviously going to be not. 
I'm obviously not just going to 

301
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,600
be like, oh, that hasn't crossed
my mind. 

302
00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,120
I'm going to be thinking about, 
oh, that's the child that just 

303
00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,400
told me to F off, which is still
in my brain because I'm a human 

304
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:39,920
being. 
But do. 

305
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,000
You think I, I, I personally 
think that as a professional you

306
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,080
should be able to 
compartmentalise that and not be

307
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,760
personally rattled by it. 
The the the annoyance that would

308
00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,560
come from me and the reason I 
would feel like it's 

309
00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:52,560
unacceptable for them to come 
back is not because I feel, oh, 

310
00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:54,960
woe is me you told me to wear 
for I feel so offended. 

311
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,600
It's more that that sets a 
precedent that it's OK to do 

312
00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,120
that and that that line has been
crossed by you and there's 

313
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,240
seemingly no retribution 
whatsoever. 

314
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,280
The rest of the class see that 
and think, well, why, why am I 

315
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,000
doing this the way I can do what
I want now that that's what I I 

316
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,000
I'd become. 
I'd feel more rattled at the 

317
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,120
president that it's setting of 
what's acceptable rather than a 

318
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,000
person. 
I I would not feel a personal 

319
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,160
rattle at a 12 year old telling 
me to have. 

320
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:18,560
Off. 
Yeah, OK, I guess I'm I'm going 

321
00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:20,120
to try tie two things together 
because I'm sort of in the 

322
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,440
middle of that in in a way I 
think I'm not saying I wouldn't.

323
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:24,280
No, no, I agree. 
I. 

324
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,840
I, I wouldn't, I I think there's
room as a professional to not 

325
00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:29,960
feel personally offended by 
something like that, but just 

326
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:31,800
but still have a problem with it
on the wider. 

327
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,160
Yeah, what you're saying is, is 
a better expansion of what I'm 

328
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,520
trying to say really, because I 
I would be a little bit rattled 

329
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,520
in terms of it would obviously 
annoy me that someone told me to

330
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,480
F off, but I would be able to 
get over it and compartmentalise

331
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,400
as a teacher who's experienced 
and deals with this sort of 

332
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,680
stuff all the time. 
But when they come back in and 

333
00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:46,600
me being able to 
compartmentalise is now just 

334
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,720
back to completely lovey dovey. 
Normal, normal, normal, I think 

335
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,400
is the is the problem. 
It's basically what you said. 

336
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,280
It then sets the precedent of, 
oh look, that person that told 

337
00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,000
the teacher to F off has come 
back in. 

338
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,160
The teacher seemingly is 
completely fine with it. 

339
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,440
Yeah, because actually you have,
you have compartmentalised and 

340
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:01,920
you've moved on and you're not 
going to ask the teacher be 

341
00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:03,600
like, oh, I can't, I can't. 
Look, now do that. 

342
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,600
That child swore at me. 
You're obviously going to deal 

343
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,800
with it and compartmentalise it.
But the pressure that is set is 

344
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,280
that child can come back in. 
Everyone's OK with it. 

345
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:11,400
The teacher's completely fine 
with it. 

346
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:12,880
It hasn't affected them in 
whatsoever. 

347
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:14,760
Cool. 
We all know that's how it works 

348
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,240
now. 
Yeah, I don't like that. 

349
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:17,960
Yeah, yeah, sure. 
No, it makes sense. 

350
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,520
I'm it, it, there's, I guess 
there's a wider point here we 

351
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,320
can just briefly touch on. 
We've done so many episodes on 

352
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,040
Behaviour. 
It's actually some of our most 

353
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:25,360
listened to episodes have been 
on Behaviour. 

354
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,000
So if you're on Spotify, 
wherever you're listening to the

355
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,360
podcast, if you search Behaviour
at the top, they'll come up with

356
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:30,960
a few episodes. 
They're well listened to. 

357
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,400
And I think we go into big 
detail about restorative 

358
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,080
practises in school where what 
consequences can and can't be. 

359
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,320
I don't think we need to rehash 
all of that, but just in general

360
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,720
that I think it's absolutely 
fair enough to have a, a line of

361
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,800
respect for professionals where 
we don't need someone coming 

362
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,760
back and just saying to us, oh, 
but it was just communication. 

363
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:55,880
Honestly. 
There's no level of 

364
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:57,640
communication that makes it 
acceptable. 

365
00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,880
There's a level of communication
that makes us be able to 

366
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:01,520
understand why maybe they did 
that. 

367
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,280
There might be some deep 
underlying explanations as to 

368
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,240
why that child thought that was 
acceptable to do that point. 

369
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:07,960
It might have been the 
environment they've grown up in 

370
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,040
where that's normal language. 
It might have been something 

371
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,600
that happened that morning that 
set them off be some underlying 

372
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:14,760
needs that they have personally 
and especially educational 

373
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,920
needs, etc. 
There are lots of explanations 

374
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,440
as to why something can happen, 
but we don't have to pretend as 

375
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,800
a professional that. 
Therefore I'm going to excuse 

376
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,000
it. 
There are some things that the 

377
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,520
world won't change for you and 
there has to be a line of well, 

378
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,000
no matter what the reason is 
behind this, you cannot tell a 

379
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,240
teacher to fuck off in the 
middle of the lesson and there 

380
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,280
has to be something in place 
that makes that really clear. 

381
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:39,840
I'm going to understand you, I 
get it. 

382
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,720
I'm not trying to make you feel 
awful all the time. 

383
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,080
But there is a line here and and
just because XYZ doesn't mean 

384
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:47,600
that you can say that. 
Absolutely. 

385
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,080
There is a consequence and that 
consequence is hard written. 

386
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,120
It's hard coded with the the 
main difference in like, yeah, 

387
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,240
restorative practise and what, 
you know, other practises, 

388
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,520
right. 
It might just be there's a 

389
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,280
consequence some people are 
happy with. 

390
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:03,760
Cool, there's the consequence. 
Go away, kid. 

391
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,840
I don't want to address it and 
I'm not going to do anything to 

392
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,280
remotely help this situation. 
Some people will say here's the 

393
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:09,360
consequence, you've got to deal 
with it. 

394
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,120
I'm also going to do my absolute
best utmost to try and help you 

395
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,040
and learn about the situation, 
find out the root causes and do 

396
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,160
something about that long term. 
That's, that's the good, that's.

397
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,960
Good practise both, isn't it? 
I, I maybe I'm just naive here, 

398
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:21,640
but I see both as the way to go 
about it. 

399
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,720
You have to, you have to have a 
consequence that you hold to and

400
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,240
that is it. 
There's no sorry, there's no 

401
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:27,920
excuse, guys. 
That is, you cannot do that. 

402
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,680
There here is a consequence for 
it, but alongside that, I'm 

403
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,320
going to dig deep and trying to 
find the personal reasons why 

404
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,080
you're doing this, how I can 
help you develop emotionally. 

405
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,000
How can I how can I make sure it
doesn't happen again? 

406
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,600
And that's going to be. 
Different for every child, yeah.

407
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,120
It's, it feels like sometimes 
schools go down the restorative 

408
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,640
path, which is solely just about
helping the individual and 

409
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,400
there's never any consequences 
and spirals. 

410
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:49,600
It seems like there's some 
draconian schools where it's 

411
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,080
just like consequence, 
consequence, consequence, 

412
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,040
repeat, repeat offenders, repeat
offenders, repeat offenders. 

413
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,080
When I was in school, it was the
same kids getting detention 

414
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:56,720
every week. 
Something was going wrong. 

415
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,720
Clearly, clearly something was 
going wrong. 

416
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,200
For years there was the same 
kids getting detention so 

417
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,800
nothing was being addressed. 
Both of these on their own to 

418
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,880
me, seem insane to think that 
that's suitable. 

419
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,320
I agree there. 
Has to be. 

420
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:08,240
Both. 
Yep. 

421
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,280
OK, that's it. 
That's that's exactly what I 

422
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:11,160
think. 
Exactly that. 

423
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,000
So there you go. 
Is that three things today 

424
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:13,640
you've liked? 
You're doing. 

425
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,240
You're doing well today. 
I'm impressed. 

426
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:15,960
I'm not. 
I'm not gonna. 

427
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,240
Lie. 
Well, I'll let you read this one

428
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,200
and yeah, try and get some 
limelight, yeah. 

429
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:20,120
What? 
What? 

430
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,920
I'll read it and you can answer 
it perfectly and I'll agree. 

431
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,080
OK, so no pressure. 
No pressure if you oh here we 

432
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,520
go, This is suits you, isn't it?
If you were the Education 

433
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,120
secretary, what would be the top
of your agenda to change first 

434
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,120
thing tomorrow? 
That's probably the hardest 

435
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,000
question to. 
Answer. 

436
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:38,960
That's a big question. 
Is it harder because you're too 

437
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,000
busy? 
You think about the ego, You'd 

438
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,680
get by. 
Yeah, yeah, 100 percent, 100%. 

439
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:43,040
I would go around with a big bad
saying. 

440
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,440
No consequences for me. 
Yeah, you do as I say, not as I 

441
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,200
do. 
OK, firstly, I'm going to 

442
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,440
preface this for anyone 
listening that if I don't say 

443
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,400
the thing that you think's 
really important, it doesn't 

444
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,120
mean I don't think it's 
important, because this question

445
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,560
asks for one thing. 
So if I don't mention the phone 

446
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,720
ban, for example, yeah, it 
doesn't mean I didn't get that 

447
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,079
phone ban. 
Let me just make sure right now 

448
00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:08,720
no one's getting annoyed. 
And it's also because we're 

449
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:09,880
talking about that in our next 
episode. 

450
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,119
OK? 
So that's why, that's why you 

451
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:12,079
mentioned that one. 
That's true. 

452
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:14,560
That's true. 
The number one thing I would 

453
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,119
change tomorrow if I was the 
education secretary. 

454
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:24,119
Oh my God, this is so hard. 
I would completely scrap Ofsted 

455
00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:29,800
and from the ground up, build a 
completely new way of still 

456
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,040
keeping schools accountable, but
in a way that's supportive and 

457
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,920
holistic and collaborative. 
That is not rooted in judge 

458
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,560
mental outcomes that that spark 
fear across schools up and down 

459
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:45,000
the country, but is built on 
helping people improve and 

460
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:46,920
pointing them in the right 
direction to do so and giving 

461
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,520
them tools to do so, actually 
improving standards, not just 

462
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,200
judging other schools. 
And I don't think that any 

463
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,840
amount of reforms within Ofsted 
can make that the body that I 

464
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,200
feel it needs to be because it's
going to be tinkering around the

465
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,600
edges. 
It needs to be fully scrapped in

466
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,840
my opinion, get rid of it. 
And I'm, and I'm not saying get 

467
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,920
rid of it and hunky Dory schools
can do what they want because 

468
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,760
schools have to be held 
accountable to the highest of 

469
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:12,880
standards. 
But there's a way to do that 

470
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,880
that I think is collaborative, 
helpful, and then still make 

471
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,880
sure schools are giving children
what they need in a way that 

472
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,800
actually improves standards. 
Definitely. 

473
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,040
We spoke about this a while ago 
when we when we looked at the 

474
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,440
Ofsted reforms. 
I remember part of our 

475
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,520
conversation was we can debate 
and argue about all the changes 

476
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,160
as much as you want, but like 
ultimately what annoyed me and 

477
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,280
maybe maybe you as well, was it 
just, it needed to be scrapped 

478
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,080
and rewritten from the ground. 
It needed to, but we needed to 

479
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,120
think outside the box. 
And all we did was just kind of 

480
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:44,200
repackage the existing box into 
a slightly different format. 

481
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,200
We're talking about parks, 
didn't we? 

482
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,200
We said we were in a park inside
the fence of the park, and we're

483
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,760
just going from between the 
swings and the roundabouts and 

484
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,680
the seesaw. 
No, the park is the park. 

485
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,400
Let's build a new park. 
Everything is broken. 

486
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,520
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly that, 
exactly that. 

487
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,040
So that's a good change. 
I think that would be a very 

488
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,680
worthwhile thing to do and also 
rooted in you could do that. 

489
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:05,680
Like there were some things I 
was thinking of where I was 

490
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,320
like, they're just idealistic. 
Like if it's related to funding,

491
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,920
I'm like ultimately at the Ed Ed
SEC like I can't actually just. 

492
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,000
Hello, Rachel. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

493
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,840
Do you know what we have? 
Billions and billions of pounds.

494
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,680
Exactly right. 
It's easier for us to sit there 

495
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,880
and say do that, but. 
But Rachel Rees would just turn 

496
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,320
around and say no, Yeah, so. 
Exactly that way as whereas with

497
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,920
Ofsted that is well within your 
remit as Ed SEC to be like if I 

498
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,240
want to make this change and 
start reforming this however I 

499
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:28,760
want to, you really could start 
doing that. 

500
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:29,880
Do you know what I mean? 
I'm sure you'd get some 

501
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,920
pushback, but you. 
Could you could maybe there's 

502
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,000
something there in terms of 
maybe some issue that because 

503
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:36,800
I'm not saying reform, I'm 
saying scrap. 

504
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,120
Yeah, I'm saying I'm saying 
don't try and fix that, OK. 

505
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,040
It's like imagine this, there's 
a poo in the middle of the room.

506
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,080
But but the point is I don't 
think it's worth trying to fix 

507
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:50,960
that thing. 
There comes a point where your 

508
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,000
Hoover's broken, right? 
It keeps breaking. 

509
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:54,760
It's not it's not working 
properly. 

510
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,000
I'll get a new part. 
I'll change that part of the 

511
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,320
nozzle's gone. 
It's changed the nozzle got the 

512
00:19:58,320 --> 00:19:59,000
poo in it. 
The suction. 

513
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:00,880
It's got a big poo in the middle
of it. 

514
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:01,840
I'll clean it out. 
Right. 

515
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:02,920
There comes the point where you 
just. 

516
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,320
Say behind the Hoover. 
And that's what we need to do. 

517
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:06,440
Do you know what I need? 
A different brand. 

518
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:07,840
Yeah, exactly. 
I need a different brand and it 

519
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,560
needs to be a washing machine 
and it's not even I'm trying to 

520
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,280
clean my clothes for Hoover this
whole time. 

521
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:15,880
This whole time and I live in a 
park. 

522
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,760
And I keep, I keep trying to 
actually how to fix the Hoover 

523
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,640
and it's not making my clothes 
any cleaner. 

524
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:20,960
Turns out I need a washing 
machine. 

525
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,440
Yeah, it's kind of the same in 
terms of you're trying to raise 

526
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:24,680
standards in schools. 
Yeah. 

527
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,640
Using a tool which won't raise 
standards whatsoever. 

528
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:27,880
Yeah. 
Yeah, you need to get a washing 

529
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,040
machine that will raise 
standards. 

530
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:31,360
I'm loving these analogies 
today. 

531
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,120
They are just, they work, you 
know, they do work. 

532
00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:36,360
And I hope listeners, you don't 
think we're just completely 

533
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,080
insane. 
Do you have you know, are you 

534
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,920
going to do what you literally 
said at the start and just. 

535
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,520
Go yeah, no, no, no, no. 
I, I had a couple in my mind. 

536
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,400
Offset was one of them because I
think we talk about it a lot. 

537
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,040
Another one interestingly was 
was curriculum, but I feel like 

538
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:50,440
they're already tackling that. 
So I don't think. 

539
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,280
They're going far enough. 
I think we have to wait and see.

540
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,160
Almost like that's why I don't 
really want to dive into that 

541
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:56,400
too much. 
The only other thing I had in my

542
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,840
mind, I don't know if it, I 
don't know if it pushes too much

543
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,160
into the like the funding thing.
I'm I'm being unrealistic to me 

544
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,520
is. 
Like whenever I'm realistic on 

545
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,160
this podcast, Yeah, of course we
say could be. 

546
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,360
Yeah, exactly. 
But like I feel like yours was a

547
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:09,680
really good one in terms of you 
could just start doing it. 

548
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,880
Sorry, I don't know, I'm too 
nice you. 

549
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,440
Feel like mine was a really. 
Good one it was, it was and 

550
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,160
great. 
John, I might just do this on my

551
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,920
own, this podcast. 
Yeah, yeah, You just have all my

552
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,640
thoughts. 
You just say them first. 

553
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:24,800
That's the problem. 
I would have, said Ofsted. 

554
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,680
I'm just, oh, you say them first
and I say Bell. 

555
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
So my 1 was Ofsted, but another 

556
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:30,920
one for me. 
Something to do something like 

557
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,680
parents I think. 
Benham been parents. 

558
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,440
Been parents. 
Yeah, yeah, there's clearly, 

559
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,720
clearly, clearly and has been 
for a long time an enormous 

560
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,360
issue in terms of inclusion in 
schools and how like the whole 

561
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,960
mainstream schools are catering 
for every, every single person's

562
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,760
needs. 
We've got all this new ISP stuff

563
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,160
coming out and the HTP reforms, 
all the all this stuff coming 

564
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,960
out the S with Sen and I'm like,
and I just don't think it's 

565
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:54,480
right. 
I look at that and I'm like, 

566
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,200
parents are screaming out for 
more support, Schools are 

567
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,480
screaming out for more support. 
And I don't think the Band-Aid 

568
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,520
that we're starting to put on it
is actually going to be a good 

569
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:03,560
fix. 
If you want to know more about 

570
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,440
that, just go back and literally
listen to the episodes where 

571
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,680
we've talked about the SEND 
reforms or any of our reels on 

572
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,840
Instagram where we've done it 
and we mocked it by way. 

573
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,840
I mean, me, just me. 
So that would be as I think if I

574
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,720
said tomorrow, that'd be the 
first thing I'd want to start 

575
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,440
diving into. 
I'd be like, right, this is we 

576
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,880
are not fixing this. 
This is not the solution. 

577
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,800
Again, maybe scrap how we're 
looking at it right now, or at 

578
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,560
least drastically rethink what 
we are, what we genuinely think 

579
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,800
we're going to do to actually 
support every child who grows up

580
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,520
in our country. 
I think you make a really good 

581
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,640
point about funding because my 
genuine opinion is that a lot of

582
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,720
what is being introduced via the
SEND white paper is a result of 

583
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,320
the hands being tied on funding.
So, so I, I, I think it's a 

584
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:45,920
great point where I completely 
agree with you. 

585
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,840
And I'm, I'm not saying it's 
right, but I'm, what I'm saying 

586
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,360
is I do look at some of the 
reforms in the white paper. 

587
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:54,080
And I think the only reason that
this would make sense is if it's

588
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,000
because they're trying to make 
something work in a system 

589
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,640
that's already on the funds. 
They don't have billions to 

590
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,480
solve it. 
Why else would we trying to 

591
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,280
force children into mainstream 
in a mainstream curriculum where

592
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,560
it feels like it's not the right
place for them? 

593
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,960
And I think a lot of people feel
the same way. 

594
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:09,280
Yep. 
No, that's completely. 

595
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,720
Fair enough, if only like it'd 
be great we had the chance to 

596
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,640
speak to the education I know 
and ask her what her practise if

597
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:15,960
I. 
Really. 

598
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:16,960
Will. 
We said this every day, didn't 

599
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,400
we just sort of leave people 
hanging? 

600
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,680
It'd be crazy if we left people 
hanging more, but it would be 

601
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:21,880
great. 
Yeah, it would be great if we 

602
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,040
had the opportunity to go and 
speak to. 

603
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,520
Her in like 3 or 4 weeks time. 
Yeah, that would be, it'd be 

604
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,160
good. 
Unfiltered questions and just 

605
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,240
sort of ask what we want and. 
That would be very good. 

606
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,120
Footage. 
But yeah, anyway, let's see. 

607
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,880
Another question, yeah, OK. 
How do you deal with a parent 

608
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,680
who just does not understand and
how far behind their child is? 

609
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,960
We've tried the softly, softly 
approach but now are being much 

610
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,240
more direct, but they still 
don't seem to get it. 

611
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:48,320
I thought of a few parents 
immediately with this type of 

612
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,600
question where it's not a nice, 
you know, within our parents 

613
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,160
evening reports, etcetera. 
I think it's really good to be 

614
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,320
frank with parents. 
And as I got through my career, 

615
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,680
I got more confident in 
basically saying it at the start

616
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,760
of my career, I was, I was, I'm 
going to be admitted. 

617
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,440
I was scared to say to someone 
your child's really below in 

618
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,200
terms of their attainment. 
OK, I'm going to say below like 

619
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,080
below level it it. 
I got more confident as my 

620
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,760
career gone on. 
But then it made me also that 

621
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,640
obviously opened the door up to 
some parents who were really 

622
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,000
reactive to it, who really 
appreciated it. 

623
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:23,160
But some in this camp who I felt
like I said it five times in a 

624
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,320
row, different ways to them, and
they were still just like, oh, 

625
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,240
yeah, but she's so bright, isn't
she? 

626
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:33,400
I'm like, I, I'm sorry, but in 
this context we're talking 

627
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,320
about, she isn't. 
She's a lovely girl. 

628
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,440
She's so polite. 
She's going to go far in life. 

629
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,360
She's fantastic. 
She's got all this going for 

630
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:42,400
her. 
She's going to be OK. 

631
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,120
But you do need to understand, 
though, her reading is is below,

632
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:48,880
she struggles with reading and 
that's going to be a key skill. 

633
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,800
So we need to try and work 
together to try and prove that 

634
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,120
you don't read that often at 
home with her. 

635
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:55,240
We don't get that. 
You've admitted that to me in 

636
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,560
this conversation. 
We know it's busy, but it would 

637
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,880
really, really, really help her.
Oh, I know she she just don't 

638
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,760
want to read, does she? 
But she's, she'll be all right. 

639
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,440
Oh, oh, but I promise you, you 
should do this. 

640
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,720
Yeah, it's a lot of people. 
It's a, it's one of the most 

641
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,280
awkward conversations I think 
you can have as a teacher. 

642
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:13,920
I mean, parent exchanges can be 
quite awkward. 

643
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,920
Anyway, There are probably one 
of the harder elements, I think,

644
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,720
for teachers to grasp 'cause you
there's. 

645
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:19,920
No training is there? 
Not really. 

646
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,880
Training and ultimately like, 
like a lot of people will start 

647
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,040
quite young as teachers and 
you'll be talking to parents who

648
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:26,400
are older than you. 
And that was certainly a thing 

649
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,520
of our, you know, majority of 
our career, to be fair. 

650
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:30,480
And it's awkward. 
It's awkward. 

651
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,480
Like no one wants to tell 
someone else that their child 

652
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,080
isn't doing particularly well or
isn't meeting the expectations 

653
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:36,160
that they think maybe they're 
meeting. 

654
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:37,600
I mean, there's a couple of 
things to this. 

655
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,400
Number one, I find it 
particularly hard when all of 

656
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,080
the predecessor teachers, I've 
also been softly, softly and not

657
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,320
and not addressed it. 
And I found as a year 6 teacher 

658
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,000
and I'm having conversations 
with parents who you know, and 

659
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,360
you get the old time where a 
child is significantly behind it

660
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:53,400
when it comes to maths and 
English. 

661
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:54,520
Let's just focus on maths and 
English. 

662
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,440
There's obviously a lot more to 
a child, but these are the 

663
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,040
conversations that normally come
with awkwardness because we 

664
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,760
measure them so well. 
I mean, you can normally say, 

665
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,280
oh, your child is at this sort 
of year group level. 

666
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,680
And I've had children who are 
multiple years behind by this 

667
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,280
point and the parents don't know
it. 

668
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,280
And I'm like, to me, but first 
thing that screams at me, I'm 

669
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,520
like, oh God. 
Like I really, really, really 

670
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,760
wish people had been more frank 
before this because now it's all

671
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,120
this whole burden's fallen to 
me. 

672
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,200
And there is a potential that 
they're going to think, and 

673
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,480
rightfully so. 
Well, every other teacher hasn't

674
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:22,880
told me this. 
So it's your fault. 

675
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:25,040
They suddenly come to your class
and now they're two years 

676
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,920
behind. 
So that might be a reason why 

677
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,560
they're maybe a bit dismissive 
about it. 

678
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,160
Exactly, exactly that. 
And it falls, that burden then 

679
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,880
falls on you as a teacher. 
Who's then who's picking up 

680
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,040
those pieces? 
Who's delivered the truth? 

681
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,440
Yeah, you deliver the truth, 
Really. 

682
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,080
And it looks like, OK, it's your
fault almost. 

683
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:39,160
Because other teachers haven't 
said that. 

684
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,440
And the reality was they were 
behind in previous years. 

685
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,600
But the teachers just go. 
How can they be in a year 4 

686
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,240
level at year 6 when they were 
fine in Year 5? 

687
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,960
Yeah, exactly. 
Honestly, they weren't, but they

688
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,960
weren't where they where you 
think they were. 

689
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,200
So firstly, I think there needs 
to be a unanimous approach 

690
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,280
across the school. 
I think there should be some 

691
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,840
staff training on like how we 
deliver that sort of feedback to

692
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,640
parents because I feel like that
was definitely lacking in my 

693
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:58,280
career. 
I don't really. 

694
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,560
Think, no, I, I, if anything, 
the interest here at listeners 

695
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,240
think about that because I 
reckon that's lacking everywhere

696
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,400
in terms of there's no, you 
know, I think, yeah, 

697
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,280
communication is hard to get 
right. 

698
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,200
I think we've run our own 
businesses, we've run in lots of

699
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,480
schools. 
Communication consistently, even

700
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,320
with the best of intentions, 
usually crops up as an issue no 

701
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,760
matter where you're at. 
And that to me, that's, that's 

702
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,960
another, you know, symptom of 
that where there has to be clear

703
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,200
communication, where actually as
a teacher, it's your job to 

704
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,920
deliver this information 100%. 
It can be in a nice way, but you

705
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,360
have to deliver that 
information. 

706
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,480
So I think that's my second 
point then about delivering the 

707
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:32,640
information. 
If you're in that situation 

708
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,360
where let's say the other thing 
wasn't so much of a problem, 

709
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,720
genuinely, it's just the parents
just not getting it. 

710
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,040
Like you've, like you've said, 
you've said it three times in 

711
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,200
different ways of like this is 
where your child's out. 

712
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,080
I just think the only way you 
can talk at the end of the day, 

713
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,640
you can't actually secure that 
problem completely, but you can 

714
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,760
tackle it as much as you can by 
presenting information at 

715
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,360
multiple points in the year. 
I think it's 1 and in multiple 

716
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:55,280
different ways. 
I think sometimes we rely on it 

717
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,480
just being, I'm reading off my 
sheet of information, it's 

718
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,360
verbal, maybe a visual might 
help, maybe some writing might 

719
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:02,520
help. 
And doing that a couple of times

720
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,960
across the year, I think we'll 
catch 99.999% of people and they

721
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,360
will actually understand where 
their child's at. 

722
00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:11,520
You still might get the old 
person that somehow they've been

723
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,880
given a graph, they've been 
given written information. 

724
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,040
You've told them three times in 
the year and for some reason 

725
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,960
they're not listening. 
At that point, I'm like, I don't

726
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,040
know what else I can do. 
Like I've given you this 

727
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,200
information in many as many ways
as I can. 

728
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,240
I get the impression sometimes 
some parents who push back and 

729
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,120
kind of it feels like they don't
want to hear it. 

730
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,160
It's a bit of a defence 
mechanism sometimes, sure, 

731
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,600
because they sat in front of the
teacher. 

732
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,760
They, they, they don't want to 
feel like their child's, but 

733
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,640
they might feel personally 
responsible, but have not been 

734
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:35,880
reading etcetera with them or 
whatever. 

735
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,040
And sometimes I've, I've had 
that conversation where our 

736
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,960
parents being like that and 
dismissive almost. 

737
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:41,800
It's fine. 
It's fine. 

738
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,280
You, you've just told me how 
amazing she is. 

739
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,920
I care more about how lovely she
is and as a person and, and her 

740
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,000
maths is OK. 
Like it's it. 

741
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,280
Everything they're saying is 
fine up until when they just go,

742
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,640
and that's fine. 
I'm like, oh, but two things can

743
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,120
exist. 
Yeah, two things. 

744
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,760
You can believe that it's more 
important. 

745
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,520
They're a well-rounded person. 
I'd probably agree with you, 

746
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,280
Right? 
But there are some things that 

747
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,680
if your child can't read 
properly though, and they are 9,

748
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,440
we have to both be on the same 
page here and accept that's the 

749
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,840
reality because there's only 
going to be one way that we fix 

750
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,800
that. 
It's by both accepting that. 

751
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,240
And sometimes it's definitely a 
defensive thing. 

752
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,040
No one wants to hear that. 
But then I've noticed afterwards

753
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,320
through just being persistent, 
even though it feels like you're

754
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,400
not getting through to them, an 
uptake in how much they're 

755
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,680
reading, an uptake in how much 
they're doing at home. 

756
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,800
So it's not always a lost cause 
just because it feels that way. 

757
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,160
It's it's something to keep an 
eye on and you know, as as a 

758
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,480
teacher, it can be bit relenting
for the 4th time, for the fifth 

759
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,800
time, separate time of saying 
the same thing. 

760
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,280
Yeah, but it but it is our job. 
And one thing that is important 

761
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,160
though, is you never, ever, 
ever, ever get rude because I, I

762
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,200
think that would be easy for 
someone to, to go. 

763
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:44,680
I've got that. 
I've told you 4 times, I'm going

764
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,720
to be so frank next time that 
it's actually quite blunt and 

765
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,480
rude. 
I, I think it is so 

766
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,160
unprofessional and you should 
never do that, no matter how 

767
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:51,560
annoying it is that it's not 
getting through. 

768
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,960
You have to maintain literal 
professionalism and being 

769
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,320
polite. 
And at the end of the day, I 

770
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,760
wasn't about you. 
But like I've had a probably a 

771
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,920
couple of parents in my career 
who have like got literally 

772
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:03,000
visibly upset over because it 
means so much to them. 

773
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,560
And hearing anything that isn't 
just my child's doing it 

774
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,080
completely finding exactly where
they should be, he's upsetting. 

775
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,360
And that like, breaks my heart. 
Like. 

776
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,600
I hate. 
I hate that So I understand why 

777
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,440
people go down softy softy 
approach because no one wants to

778
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,040
sit there in front of a parent 
and make them feel upset about 

779
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,640
the progress of their child. 
That is like one of the worst 

780
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,120
feelings ever. 
But there is a point where you 

781
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,280
have to just like it up and say 
this parent has the right to 

782
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,480
know exactly where their child 
is and and it's my job to be as 

783
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,880
truthful as possible in the most
polite and professional way I 

784
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:32,960
can. 
You have to balance them. 

785
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,560
Good answer, well done. 
Thanks for contributing after 

786
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,680
half an hour. 
Oh, you were being nice and then

787
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,680
you brought it back. 
Go on, go if we can. 

788
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,280
If we can return the message, me
or you. 

789
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:43,560
Oh, you. 
Don't even know it's your own 

790
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,800
podcast. 
Crikey, you need me, You need 

791
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:47,800
me. 
You read the last one. 

792
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:48,840
OK, got it. 
So here's on. 

793
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:50,720
You shouldn't start reading any 
of you. 

794
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,160
You shouldn't, Yeah. 
Can we ever really teach reading

795
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,520
for pleasure? 
It feels like forced fun to me 

796
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,320
and I hate when people say 
something like first rule, have 

797
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,720
fun. 
I immediately don't feel like 

798
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,360
having fun. 
If a child can't read, what's 

799
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,680
pleasurable about that? 
It's fair enough. 

800
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,840
I've said this a long time. 
I don't think you can teach 

801
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,600
reading for pleasure. 
No, I think the the the role of 

802
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,320
a school and the job of a 
teacher is to facilitate the 

803
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,040
chance for children to enjoy 
reading. 

804
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,000
And that can be through lots of 
ways. 

805
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,720
So yeah, I absolutely agree. 
I think, I think I hear 

806
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,360
sometimes people say they've 
been told in their timetable 

807
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,240
they've got 15 minutes slot, 
which is for reading for 

808
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,160
pleasure. 
And it comes from a nice place 

809
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,480
and it can be done really well. 
But it's just, it's just funny 

810
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,320
to me in the surface where it's 
like, right, kids, pack up your 

811
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:32,480
stuff, it's time to read for 
pleasure. 

812
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,720
But obviously you can't do that.
Like we're all going to enjoy 

813
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:36,600
this book. 
Now we're reading. 

814
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,440
Reading for pleasure for me is, 
is a, is a ethos, it's a vibe. 

815
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,720
It's what you do all of the time
where you facilitate an 

816
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,960
environment for children to 
enjoy any type of reading that's

817
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,880
good for them because it will 
look different for that kid, for

818
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,080
that kid, for that kid, for that
kid. 

819
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,600
You can have a nice corner where
there's some books that are 

820
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,600
readily available. 
You can have some nonfiction 

821
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,760
texts. 
You know your class are into 

822
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,960
that. 
You can have some rules in place

823
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:02,160
where children understand that 
there's a bit of downtime. 

824
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:03,280
They can read their book for a 
bit. 

825
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,720
There's so much you can 
implement. 

826
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,320
I think it has to be school 
wide. 

827
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,960
It has to be consistent, has to 
be all day. 

828
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,880
It's not time. 
There's not timetable. 

829
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,080
Reading for pleasure. 
Let's not do that. 

830
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,920
It's not timetable and say, 
well, I've got this tick to box 

831
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,440
show off stairs. 
We do reading pleasure 15 

832
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,000
minutes a day. 
It doesn't work like that to 

833
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,680
truly actually have an impact on
the children, which is what I 

834
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,360
want to actually change their 
minds and to give them the 

835
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,680
chance to almost feel like 
they're doing that themselves. 

836
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,640
It's about giving them 
opportunities across the board 

837
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,120
to do so. 
So I, I, I completely understand

838
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,840
where this question is coming 
from because it's probably 

839
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,960
coming from a place where 
they've been told reading 

840
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,600
pleasure is important. 
Make sure your kids are reading 

841
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:40,720
for pleasure. 
And then that's the end of the 

842
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,440
conversation. 
There has to be more to it. 

843
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,400
I absolutely fell victim to 
that, by the way. 

844
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,360
I'll, I'll happily put my hands 
up and say there were there were

845
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,160
times in my career where there 
was some sort of timetable part 

846
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,160
scheduled in of reading for 
pleasure at the end of the day, 

847
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,440
being of the day, wherever it 
was right. 

848
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,080
And the whole point was, in that
time, kids read their books 

849
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,480
independently, and maybe even 
you read your book as a teacher 

850
00:32:58,480 --> 00:32:59,680
as well to show it, to model 
them. 

851
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:01,400
All this stuff, I don't think 
that's necessarily. 

852
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,360
Bad. 
Me neither, but the whole point 

853
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,080
here was the kids. 
In that time, I can hold my 

854
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,040
hands and say I didn't. 
It wasn't about the ethos for 

855
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:10,200
me. 
It was about, oh, in this 

856
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:11,240
moment. 
I tell the kids that we're 

857
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:12,920
reading for pleasure now and 
they all read their books and I 

858
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,360
make them all read, right. 
And the kids that don't like 

859
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,200
reading obviously did anything 
they could do not read because 

860
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,720
this didn't make it any more 
pleasurable. 

861
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:20,840
For them, do you know what that 
was? 

862
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,480
That was independent reading? 
Yeah. 

863
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:23,840
It's just called a spade a 
spade. 

864
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,080
It's independent reading. 
If a kid doesn't enjoy reading, 

865
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,640
they're not going to suddenly 
enjoy reading. 

866
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,880
Exactly that that was, but I 
thought it was because someone 

867
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:31,880
told me that's reading for 
pleasure. 

868
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,960
But really that had nothing to 
do with encouraging or fostering

869
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:37,840
reading for pleasure. 
Like the improvement movement of

870
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,520
that in your school because it 
is an ethos thing. 

871
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,520
You're absolutely right. 
So do you think then send it 

872
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,840
back to you? 
Do you think there is there is a

873
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,720
space to say that some schools 
can do reading for pleasure 

874
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,280
better by the things they do to 
the ethos than other schools? 

875
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,360
Yeah, 100%, absolutely. 
Because I also think there's, I 

876
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,360
don't think there's one way of 
teaching reading for pleasure. 

877
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,560
I don't think there's one way of
doing it. 

878
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,480
That's why I said it's an ethos,
because an ethos is vague and 

879
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:01,840
including myself, a lot of 
people don't like vagueness. 

880
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:03,360
They want answers. 
They want what can I do to 

881
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,400
improve reading for pleasure. 
There's loads of actionable 

882
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,600
things you can do, but I think 
it depends on your class, it 

883
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,800
depends on your group, it 
depends on your year group, it 

884
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,320
depends on your school. 
Like it depends on so much. 

885
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,159
It depends on the resources you 
have available or not. 

886
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,159
So when I'm saying it's an 
ethos, I think you can still 

887
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,480
tell people like actionable tips
of what to do. 

888
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,440
You could still help people out 
by in like in each room, 

889
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,400
encouraging there to be at least
a space for reading at least 

890
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,320
something where you know, books 
are on display or easily, you 

891
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,199
know, even even down to how 
they're displayed. 

892
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,719
They're slightly open stood up 
so you can see the front covers,

893
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,199
not just like filed away on the 
side. 

894
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,400
There's little things and 
actions that there's been lots 

895
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:37,880
of reading frameworks that have 
been released. 

896
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,520
There's been lots of people who 
are really passionate about 

897
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,159
books on on social media sites. 
And I said, this is what you can

898
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:42,760
do. 
Yeah. 

899
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,159
I think there's loads of little 
things you can do constantly 

900
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,000
that I think add to it and add 
to it. 

901
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,320
I don't think there's such a 
thing as tick box do reading for

902
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,000
pleasure. 
Yeah, I think, I think there 

903
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,159
are. 
There are some schools that do a

904
00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:54,280
bit. 
There are some schools that do a

905
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,320
lot. 
We're all on some sliding scale.

906
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,160
And I'm not going to be the 
person to come in and say, well,

907
00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,640
this is where the line is. 
You have to be at least doing 

908
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:00,880
that. 
Yeah, it's not true. 

909
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,000
It's an ethos and you build and 
you work at it and you change 

910
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,920
stuff and you try stuff and you 
do stuff and you as a staff team

911
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,760
and SLT understand what the 
outcomes are by by saying, by 

912
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,680
giving the trust your 
professionals to say what do 

913
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,760
your children need? 
If I walked in at 10:45 and 

914
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,480
actually on on should be maths 
time right now and I walked into

915
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,400
a classroom and that they were 
maybe they were doing maths and 

916
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,760
a couple of kids genuinely were 
reading something in the corner 

917
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,200
right. 
My gut, my guttural instinct 

918
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,200
there would not be unacceptable.
My guttural instinct would be, 

919
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:37,120
I'm sure there's a reason for 
that. 

920
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,160
They seem to be enjoying 
themselves doing some reading. 

921
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,040
I don't think the teacher is 
suddenly thinking mass is 

922
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,040
unimportant for that child. 
No, it's an ethos, it's an idea 

923
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,560
and I think freedom to 
professionals and good training 

924
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,040
and lots of ideas that would 
like almost like a cauldron of 

925
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,000
ideas that you take from 
definitely is a is a fantastic 

926
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,000
way to do this. 
And in that situation, if you 

927
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,000
really want to know, just talk 
to the teacher after you find 

928
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,680
out and they'll tell you. 
And if you and if it's not an 

929
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,680
acceptable answer, then you can 
as a manager do what you need to

930
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,400
do exactly if it is and go cool,
well done. 

931
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:04,720
That's. 
Nice and that's that's what I 

932
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,040
was trying to do there is 
explain what I mean by just not 

933
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,360
just timetabling yeah yeah yeah 
yeah like OK we do reading for 

934
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,040
pleasure from 2:15 till half two
every day so if I walk around 

935
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,920
the school every I'd walk in 
every kid would be reading the. 

936
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,360
Book. 
Yeah, that's not reading the 

937
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:17,280
book. 
They get detention because. 

938
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,360
They're not pleasurable. 
Reading, yeah, that'll work. 

939
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,160
That'll help them. 
Yeah, definitely. 

940
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,160
I think even just reflecting, 
you said there's actionable 

941
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,920
things and I was just thinking 
about even my career and there's

942
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,680
two things that come to mind 
that I feel like I saw. 

943
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,200
I was like, oh, this is this is 
like this is definitely having 

944
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,040
an impact in the classroom. 
And obviously I like you said, 

945
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:34,200
there's a cauldron of things you
can do. 

946
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,120
Number one is literally, that 
sounds really stupid, but it is 

947
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,560
something we should do. 
The the variety and options of 

948
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,360
books that are literally 
available for your children 

949
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,920
completely at their fingertips. 
Whatever the closest version is 

950
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:47,640
for them of their library or 
bookshelf, whatever's in your 

951
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,880
classroom. 
Honestly, just having some sort 

952
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,360
of monitoring of of the books 
that are available does make a 

953
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,200
huge difference. 
Because when I put some time 

954
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:55,920
into making sure there's a 
variety in there, suddenly I had

955
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,600
more kids that are interested in
picking back books because they 

956
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,160
were more interesting. 
I was like, who'd have thought 

957
00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:01,000
it? 
There's books that other kids 

958
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:02,400
are. 
Interested in not just Tracy 

959
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,280
Beaker anymore? 
I might try and read that now. 

960
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:05,880
Yeah, right. 
So it seems really obvious, but 

961
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,840
it's just something you have to 
actively do as a teacher. 

962
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,280
And the second thing I found I 
had more of an impact maybe than

963
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,560
I thought it would. 
And I noticed this again over 10

964
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,680
years through changing the texts
we read. 

965
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,960
Whenever we had a class text, 
whether it was embedded into 

966
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,640
English or it was just a class 
text for the sake of having a 

967
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,600
book to read together, whatever 
the context was doesn't really 

968
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,720
matter. 
But like, really like the book 

969
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,160
that you pick there sometimes 
had an astronomical impact on 

970
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:30,960
the amount of children that then
went away and wanted to read 

971
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,160
other books from that author or 
within that genre. 

972
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,600
And I was always shocked at how 
much that did. 

973
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,640
I just thought, oh, kids will 
just see it as the book the 

974
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,160
teachers read and they've got to
do some work around it. 

975
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,920
They don't really care. 
And then I read something like 

976
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,840
Emma Carroll Letter from the 
Lighthouse and the amount of 

977
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,520
kids after who went away and 
made their parents by Emma 

978
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,360
Carroll books or kids who didn't
normally engage of reading who I

979
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,840
could see were totally 
captivated by this story and 

980
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:53,600
then their word count went up by
that. 

981
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,560
Word count. 
That's the only way to make. 

982
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,280
It but whatever it is, but I 
could see, I could see having 

983
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,800
you seen him is the point. 
And I was like, that had more 

984
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,200
impact than I thought it were 
just through the literal text. 

985
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:05,880
And when I've read books that I 
thought were good, maybe some 

986
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,920
get some good learning points 
out of them, but they're not 

987
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,760
super exciting as texts. 
Surprise, surprise, it didn't 

988
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,360
really have an impact on kids 
going to read for pleasure 

989
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:13,560
because the book wasn't that 
exciting. 

990
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:16,800
So it really is important what 
text you pick as a teacher. 

991
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,120
I I always go back to Varjak 
Paul because there were, there 

992
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,760
were lots of good books you read
and the kids, the kids, children

993
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,520
tend to enjoy stories. 
It's like we're, we're wired as 

994
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:26,920
humans to enjoy narratives, 
right? 

995
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,640
So kids like stories, but there 
are obviously some that 

996
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,240
captivate children more. 
Every single time I did Project 

997
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:35,160
Poor, it was insane how it 
captivated the children were to 

998
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,040
the point where they were both 
annoyed that the story had ended

999
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,480
for the day, but buzzing to go 
and do their work because it was

1000
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:42,640
to do with something we've just 
been doing. 

1001
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,440
And I, I remember this exact 
example of a child who, you 

1002
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,680
know, didn't mind reading. 
They, they have asked the 

1003
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:50,840
children to do independent 
reading. 

1004
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,960
They'd be the perfect example of
a child who'd sit there quietly 

1005
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,040
and read their book. 
And someone walked in my ticker 

1006
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,160
box and say, well, reading for 
pleasure is happening right now.

1007
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,560
Yeah, they were just reading. 
They weren't necessarily having 

1008
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,040
the best time in the world. 
Went and read the second Vortex 

1009
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,160
Vajrek Paul book. 
There's there's one after it and

1010
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,800
ferociously read through it. 
Like I was talking to me about 

1011
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,160
it all the time and was animated
by what was going on. 

1012
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,720
That's the difference. 
That child would have carried on

1013
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:18,000
reading and would have got the 
word count up and would have 

1014
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,800
been seen as a child who was 
doing some reading. 

1015
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,560
And that's fine. 
It's not a problem through me 

1016
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,720
and the year group choosing 
Varjak poor. 

1017
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,720
They continued reading, but they
read the book that's next in the

1018
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:29,840
sequel and they were buzzing. 
They were happy. 

1019
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,240
They were talking to me about 
the pleasure pleasure. 

1020
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:35,080
So that that to me really 
highlights what we mean by 

1021
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,920
reading for pleasure. 
There is a difference between 

1022
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,560
those two and there might be on 
paper someone looking at it 

1023
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,040
going, well, that child was 
reading. 

1024
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,560
Either way, there's no need for 
any intervention. 

1025
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:43,600
That's fine. 
They're getting the outcomes, 

1026
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,600
the word counts going up, the 
quizzing on a book that's called

1027
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,080
they're reading nice. 
No. 

1028
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,800
The difference there is in this 
is the difference between 

1029
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,280
reading and reading for 
pleasure. 

1030
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,840
That child loved that act of 
reading there. 

1031
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,960
It wasn't because I needed them 
to read more, it was because I 

1032
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,240
wanted them to enjoy reading. 
It had that impact, which was 

1033
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:03,480
less measurable but clear for me
to see as a professional in the 

1034
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,040
room that they were enjoying it 
more. 

1035
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,080
Can I put that down on the 
spreadsheet somewhere? 

1036
00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:09,040
No. 
Does that therefore mean it's 

1037
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,000
pointless and then we can't 
possibly do anything about it? 

1038
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,040
No, and it goes back to what I'm
saying about ethos. 

1039
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:14,920
That is where the ethos kicks 
in. 

1040
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,320
I can't do a spreadsheet about 
it, but I can see it having an 

1041
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,840
impact on the children in my 
room and that's what we need to 

1042
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,600
do. 
Such a fascinating way of 

1043
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,760
thinking about the fact that 
it's for reading for pleasure is

1044
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,680
for everyone, even the people 
that even the kids that already 

1045
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,640
read exactly like they can still
find books. 

1046
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,440
They're more interested in them 
and have more pleasure in 

1047
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,440
reading. 
Like it's not, it's not the goal

1048
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,120
isn't actually can I, the optic,
can I see kids reading in a 

1049
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,880
certain amount? 
The goal is, are they enjoying 

1050
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,800
it completely? 
And it's not just the children. 

1051
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,240
Yeah, So interesting because I 
very much before this, I was 

1052
00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:45,640
very much just thinking of the 
kids who aren't reading as the 

1053
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,720
thing that I'm trying to tackle 
to get them to start enjoying. 

1054
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:49,800
Reading which is which is a fine
thing to try and tackle 

1055
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,840
Important. 
Definitely, but I was totally 

1056
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,840
disregarding the children who 
are seen to read right and not 

1057
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,240
really thinking about what are 
they enjoying it or not. 

1058
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,280
Because I was one of those kids.
I, I, I didn't like reading. 

1059
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,760
I did it enough and I and I, I 
did it enough genuinely to be 

1060
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:04,400
good at. 
Yeah. 

1061
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,840
And, and, and that also, let's 
not, let's not pretend that's 

1062
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:07,680
not important. 
It is. 

1063
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,200
Of course it is. 
You have to be doing that. 

1064
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,880
That's fine. 
But this is like the you're 

1065
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:11,880
right, the enjoyment's like the 
next. 

1066
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,360
Step you know, although would it
would it have benefited my life 

1067
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,840
if there was some more or 
thought around the ethos of 

1068
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:18,960
getting me to enjoy reading a 
bit more honestly probably would

1069
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,520
have transformed my life in. 
Different. 

1070
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,400
You could have been carrying on 
reading and then when you're 30 

1071
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,000
and 35 and still enjoy reading, 
yeah, it's gonna have more of an

1072
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,760
impact on you then as well. 
So it's a long term. 100%, yeah.

1073
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:31,200
It's really important. 
I don't know. 

1074
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,200
I think that's, I think that's 
really, really important. 

1075
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:35,400
All right, let's finish up 
there. 

1076
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,600
We've as always got more 
questions which we will put into

1077
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,120
next week. 
And I tell you what, some of the

1078
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,480
questions we started with today 
were from last week where? 

1079
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,520
We're becoming efficient. 
Are we doing podcasting for 

1080
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:46,520
pleasure right now? 
Yeah, we are. 

1081
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,280
We just podcasting. 
We're actually just doing the 

1082
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,640
basics of a job to answer a. 
Few job they get paid for a job.

1083
00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:53,960
Yeah, well, yeah. 
Jobs should be pleasurable. 

1084
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:55,960
This is a vocation I'll have you
know. 

1085
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,960
You do it for the audience. 
Oh, think about the audience. 

1086
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,000
You want the questions. 
Answered. 

1087
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,200
Can you come in early? 
Guys, thank you so much for 

1088
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:05,800
listening. 
You can review us, you can share

1089
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:06,880
it. 
It helps us out massively. 

1090
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,000
If you've got this far, I'm 
going to ask you for that 

1091
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:10,440
favour. 
Just just help us out a little 

1092
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,400
bit. 
Share us on socials Share this 

1093
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:13,840
podcast episode to your teacher 
group. 

1094
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,640
Do something where we get our 
voices out there a bit more. 

1095
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,640
Because if you're enjoying it, 
everyone else can as well, 

1096
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,160
right? 
Do something where we benefit. 

1097
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:21,320
Exactly. 
That's what I heard. 

1098
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,880
And Hayden said at least three 
times that the things I said 

1099
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,760
were good. 
Yeah, Which I won't be doing 

1100
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,360
again. 
No, and just leave you on this. 

1101
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,440
There's a in the room. 
God's sake, No. 

1102
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:31,040
See you later.