Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Teach It
Repeat. My name is Dylan and my name is
Hayden, and we are here on April Fools Day.
April Fools, by the way. No, it's released, obviously.
No 'cause that's not how it works.
They peek behind the curtain. Wow.
They record it quite early. Don't.
Who would have thought? I can't believe they record it
on the day that I listened to it at 2:00 AM.
Why did we land on 2:00 AM for release time?
I don't know but it could be 3. Could be 3:00 AM.
No, no, we missed that cut off someone in like Australia?
Yep, listens to it on the dot. If you're in Australia, can you
let me know what time it gets released where you are?
I could just go and Google it. Yeah, I'd rather forget I had
this conversation and get a random.
Message from Australia yeah, from all of our you know, from
any any of the countries that you listen to we have global
listeners so all right you know like for every single country
hundreds of people from every. Country in the country,
Australia, that one, we've got some from there, that's for
sure. Yeah, I went to the one that you
already did. Yeah.
So anyway, April Fool's Day. Bhutan this morning, listening
from Bhutan. That's good, yeah.
Well, and you're like flexing, I know countries.
Yeah, I do. That's what you're doing.
What's that? Cote d'Ivoire?
I say it the correct way. Yeah, I bet you say Ivory Coast,
don't you? Yep, anyway.
Makes you think you got me this morning.
I have to say I have to admit this.
On the on the podcast you did a stupid freaking April Fools post
on Instagram. Context.
Swipe for #4. Literally right context.
Didn't realise it was April first today till after I saw
that. I was like.
Ah, does tend to be the way April Fools goes.
Yeah, yeah. I know, but I didn't even, I
didn't even have April Fools in my head is my point.
I just thought, oh, Dylan's posted on it and the whole time,
right? So I swiped on it once.
Do you want to give any context as to what it is?
Well, it's just you putting a post up saying swipe to go to
the 4th 1:00 because it's really funny but.
It was. So I'll tell you what it is
because you've given absolute no context for anyone who doesn't
know what you're talking about. It's a post of me saying my
favourite April Fools pranks that I played in my class.
Oh yeah. And then a little thing
underneath saying swipe no #4 was the best.
And at the bottom, underneath the picture has those dots, you
know, those dots you get when you do a carousel so you know,
to swipe. News flash, it's just a picture.
Just a picture. Clever.
No one's ever done that got me though, got me though, And
here's the here's The funny thing that exposes me even more.
The reason I couldn't remember the context is because even
though I read best April fools things, I still didn't clock on.
But it was April the 1st when I was looking at that.
So I swiped on it went went to Rios.
I was like, oh, that's weird. And and the whole time I was
thinking, God, Dylan's such a click baity now.
So click baity. But it all goes to the 4th 1.
I know why he's done that. It's to make people swipe
through all of them to get engagement out.
So there's me like slagging you off in my head, right.
And I go back to the post and say Connor, what's he actually
got on the 4th 1? I do want to know though.
Wiped it again and I was like sake, he's done me hard.
Like, so yeah, the best bit was that it's half your account and
you're still just like, I don't know what you feel about.
I know. Look, we know there's no
disguises here. We know that you do all the
social media stuff. You'd like to remind the viewers
all the time that I do nothing at all.
Just. Because I know that it's
actually a podcast, Hayden, and some people just listen.
Well, I know the stats are more than 50% of people actually
watch it. So I like to, I like to call it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Screen time.
Honestly, it makes you wonder,
isn't it? Should we, should we start some
questions? All right.
If you're enjoying half term, by the way, I'm glad.
Wow, that was good. That's staying in the benefit of
me having editorial power. You know, you might you might
slag me off about not your social media, but I can keep
that in so. I'm glad, I am glad, I hope it
stays in there. Hope you're having a nice time
despite the dip that it gives us in our place.
Because people are out of kilter and not in their routine anymore
and don't listen to it on the way to work.
It's fine. It's not like I resent it at
all. Definitely not why we're only
doing 1 episode this week. That's a question I'm looking
for some advice. I'm an avid silent listener but
have plucked up the courage to write in.
Don't worry, even though I'm a silent listener, I have given
you a 5 star review. A winky emoji.
It's what we like to hear. They could do it right now.
They. Could share this episode.
Well, they would have done it. That doesn't work.
I mean they as in everyone. Listener No, you meant they as
in this person. They've already done it.
So stupid. Basic comprehension gone.
I'm an ECT one in a school in the very difficult area.
I'm shadowing the RE subject leader but it feels like I'm
essentially leading it myself. I've been offered no support
really and completing tasks just given a list of things I need to
do including high school communication to parents,
newsletters, risk assessments, trips and visits etc.
It is making me feel incompetent because I cannot fulfil the role
but I have no idea what I'm doing.
I'm shadowing a member of SLT by the way, not another class based
teacher. Do you have any advice for what
I can do going forward? It's adding an increase of
stress to my workload which I am already finding difficult as an
ECT. Just trying to find my way.
Love the podcast guys, thumbs up.
I was sort of smirking that, like smirking kind of in a mean
way really, because I was thinking, welcome to teaching.
Welcome to teaching. Honestly, this isn't even
uncommon. Welcome to.
Teaching in some schools. Yeah, but it but I'll stand.
Well, I said it's not uncommon. Like I was reading that thinking
they're probably hoping I'd say, Oh yeah, like this is such an
anomaly. Like, oh, this doesn't happen.
You know, there's something we can do about this.
This is not right. Yeah, it's not right.
But it does happen all the time. I just feel like we've, when we
talk about subject leadership in general, the amount of times
we've mentioned the fact that 90% of the time people are just,
they just have a subject chucked on in primary schools we're
talking about here. We're just like, Oh yeah, you
just got to do this. Yeah, but even if it's not in
primary schools or in secondary schools, no matter what, there's
all even further from the point this is an ECT.
They're at the very start of their career.
It's a joke. Like, yeah, I've got, OK, at
some point in your career, you may get to the point where
you've got on top of your workload.
Like the CCT mentions here. They're already trying to find a
way to get through the job, which is already hard enough for
an ECT to do. We're already lumping them on
with this. And by the way, why?
Why in teaching do we seem to have this really weird
understanding of what the word shadow actually means?
You're not. You're not shadowing anyone.
The only shadows that they're leaving behind is when they walk
out the door, leaving you to do all the work.
There's no there's no shadowing going on here.
Yeah. Hayden, can you just shadow me
for a second by doing every single part of this job?
Yeah. Are you going to go home?
No, I'm I'm not going to do it. You're shadowing me, mate.
You've got to learn how to do it, haven't you?
So here's the list. I'm off because I've got forms
to fill. Right.
How am I going to learn how to do it if no one's showing?
Me La La La La shadowing, shadowing.
If I just say it's shadowing, get on with it.
If I just say it's shadowing, I don't have to pay you ATLR at
all and I can just get to it. Absolutely.
Yeah, there's so many bits to unpack, isn't there?
Yeah. The fact that, yeah, literally
the fact that it's an ECT. Like, come on, like they already
are. They need time to get to grips
with the job. The fact that it's not really
shadowing is, is ridiculous. The fact that there's typically
no pay, and it's clearly in this situation, there's just no pay
that comes with these additional responsibilities and burdens.
So that's why I was thinking, yeah, welcome to teaching.
Because I just feel like we like, as a teacher podcast, we
hear this sort of stuff all the time, like people writing in
with similar things where we're like, Oh my God, why is this
normal? Why is this systemic?
So advice in terms of like actual advice for you going
forward, there's a couple of things.
One part of it is what we've kind of said before, which is
just like, do you know what? Actually, quite a lot of the
time you are just going to find that this is unfortunately quite
normal that you're thrusted, that these extra, extra
responsibilities are thrusted upon you.
But I, I do think there are, there are definitely things you
can do on your own to advocate for yourself.
Because I think what people need to remember is even as an ECT.
And this is hard to do. And, and even going back to what
you said at the start about being an avid silent listener,
but plucking up the courage to write in we're not even scary.
And it still took this person a bit of courage to write in the
question, right. So I can imagine that what I'm
about to say to you doesn't, doesn't, isn't the kind of thing
you want to hear. However, that courage needs to
be plucked up even further in order to advocate for yourself
and just have clear boundaries and say no because you're well
within your rights, in my opinion, to say, look, I'm happy
to actually shadow you, but in order for me to be to shadow you
effectively, I need to see you do the job.
That's what shadowing is. I watched you actually do it and
I'm in your shadow looking and learning.
It's not shadowing if you just tell me to do the thing that's
just given me the job and pretending that you haven't.
If you're not blocking the sun, am I really learning?
That's what I'd say. I'd take it deeper.
Yours isn't helpful. Yeah, I agree.
When you were saying that, I was thinking, my point here is going
to be you have to pluck up the courage and advocate for
yourself a little bit, and you can do it politely.
We said it a lot on this podcast.
Sometimes we get into our little echo Chamber of like, yeah,
we're gonna say all this and be really aggressive and just say
this is what we want and demand things.
There is also a middle ground where you can just very politely
and reasonably say, oh, I'm struggling for this reason and
this reason. I'd appreciate this.
It would help me on my development as a, as a teacher
and my journey in this school. I'm really looking forward to
developing this further and becoming a huge part of this
community in school. But right now I feel like I'm,
I'm not fulfilling that. You can do it in a way where
it's like it's not that confrontational and they and
they might even appreciate it. I think in a, in a lot of cases,
people just forget what it's like to be an ECT.
Sometimes people just think, oh, that'll be fine.
They'll crack on because I'd be fine cracking on forgetting that
you've got 10 years under your belt where your workload's
massively changed. This person's not in that same
boat. I'm not saying everyone is that.
Naive. I don't think that's acceptable
though. Like honestly what you just
said, like Oh yeah, some people just forget what it's like to be
an ECT. No, they don't.
They just have selective memory. I don't forget what it was like
to be an ECT. And I've done it for 10 years.
So if someone else has done it for 10 years and comes out and
says, oh, I just forgot what it was, I'm sorry.
No, you didn't. You're chancing your arm and
you're pushing your luck. And it's nonsense to say that
you just forget. It's bollocks.
It gives people a get out of gaol free card.
And it pisses me off because you don't just forget.
You do not forget. If you're outside of the
classroom for 456789 years, obviously you're further away as
a company. We'll do a question later on
about this. Actually, you're further away
from the actual role itself. But if you just say, oh, I just
forget what it's like, it's just like, no, you're giving yourself
you're, you're, you're forgiving yourself for something that I
don't think is acceptable. If you're in a leadership
position, part of your job is remembering what it's like.
Part of your job is supporting the ECT and not just being able
to wash your hands and say well I'm done it in a while So what
was me I forgot sorry it's not acceptable.
So it's nonsense. I wasn't really saying that
though in terms of like, I'm not saying I'm not.
The whole time ago. Why is it getting?
No, no, no. I'm not, I'm not only people who
give passes to other people by just saying, Oh well, they
haven't done it in a while. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot what it
was like. No, you didn't.
Yeah, sure. It's not.
It's not even about giving passes.
What I'm trying to say is I just think there is a spectrum.
I think, I don't think everyone, I think it's easy to interpret
what we're saying sometimes as yes, the evil people above have
done this all on purpose. And sometimes they are also just
being a bit naive. It's not that they've forgotten
that how, what, what it's like that is what you said.
OK, fine, I'm rephrasing it now. It's that they're just, they're
not thinking about it, that it's not coming into their mind when
it should and it's not it's not forgivable.
I understand that there are some people who are toxic and they
actively go, I know this is going to be too much, but I just
don't care. And I think there are some
people who just don't really think about it and they just
think, well, I'll be all right in that situation, they'll be OK
then crack on, blah, blah, blah. Maybe they even have different
intentions. It doesn't work out.
What I'm saying is there's a sliding scale, and I think
sometimes having a conversation with the person that I just
described might actually be easier and less confrontational
than maybe having a conversation with the one who's actually
toxic. So you've just got to be aware
of the fact that people are different, I think.
Yeah, it depends what you mean by actually toxic as well.
I think you can be toxic in a passive way and it sounds like
you're forgiving that a bit more than in a non passive.
Way I'm not forgiving it. I'm saying it's easier to to
have a conversation with that person because.
Sure, but but even when that person like, so let's say, let's
say that happens and this person does that.
Yeah. And the leader turns around and
says, oh God, sorry, I forgot what it was like to be an ECT.
Very, very sorry. However, do you still need this
work done? Like it's not going to change
that, is it? No.
So at the end of the day, they only went down the road of this
person shadowing and doing all the work because they felt like
it was giving them less work and they could just, they could do
that. Whether it's passive or not.
To me, it's just like, it's beside of the point.
This person's chancing their arm and yes, you should put but like
do that and mention it. And I suppose absolutely their
reaction to that will say more potentially about what they're
like. And maybe their reaction will
be, oh sure, let's take some away.
But but that doesn't change for me the fact that there are still
lots of people in the 1st place who never would have done this.
And, and it, and it kind of winds me up when people get a
pass. And I see this in all walks of
life. I see, I see very toxic,
horrible people who made a name for themselves in maybe reality
shows or, you know, sports careers or just just horrible,
horrible people. Podcasts, podcasts, who then who
then at the end of it turn around and, and then they're
like, oh God, yeah, I was a bully.
Oh, I was so awful to women. I was so awful.
But I've seen the light. And now this is the way we
should live our life, guys. And everyone's like simping on
them like, oh, oh, aren't you just like, oh, you're just, I'm
so glad you've seen. Aren't you just saying the right
things? Oh, you're so lovely.
You never would have been famous if you weren't a misogynistic
pig in the 1st place on one of these reality TV shows.
So don't turn around now when you're 40 and be like, go,
aren't I the best person in the world?
No, you're a piece of no. They've learned the error of
their ways, Dylan. They've learned the error of
their ways. And we should, we should follow
their redemption. Yeah.
What about the people who they spent 10/15/20 years of their
life bullying and harassing and being horrible people to there
who are more interested in and do you know who I'm more
interested in? The people who were never like
that in the 1st place who didn't make a platform for themselves
because they pushed themselves out there and and were this
controversial figure and just horrible.
And then then they get they're all adulation after for the way
they changed. Now how about when you were a
grown man in your 20s and 30s? You weren't a piece of shit.
How about that? Like it?
It doesn't wash with me. It doesn't make you this amazing
figure because you changed. You were that in the 1st place
when you were able to not be that.
It doesn't make you. Oh yeah, obviously it's good.
You should have changed, but it winds me up.
And how does that make you feel? Makes me feel angry because
these aren't the people you should be putting on pedestals
and like I saw a meme as the worst person you knew at school
now and it's just them. Like sitting on a mountaintop
guy. Life's too short.
Just be nice to everyone you know.
You were horrible to everyone you knew for years and years and
years and then just started. Now's the time I'm going to get
the clouts wind me up when in retrospectively, and it's kind
of the same idea here. It's like, oh, sorry, I didn't
know that. Well, you did.
You did know, and if you didn't then you're an ignorant idiot.
So do you not believe in redemption?
Of course I believe in redempt. Of course, of course the option
at the point now would be it's better for someone to look back
and go, oh, I made mistakes, aren't I good?
What shouldn't happen there for retrospective is they're putting
a pedestal for it. They're not better than someone
being awful and then having a redemption back to where you
were is not better than someone who just was always there in the
1st place. But it's treated that way
because, oh, they've gone through this redemption.
Fantastic what they've done. Well, what if I never had
something to redeem myself about in the 1st place?
Isn't that better Do? You know what reminds me of?
And you might even be thinking this as well.
We've talked this before in the classroom when children who are
just consistently well behaved and honestly never do the right
thing, kind of don't like they never do.
I say that yeah, they always do. They're.
Well behaved, they never do the right thing.
I mean, never do the wrong thing.
They're always doing the right thing.
Like they might not get a particular reward for just doing
the right thing all the time. Whereas the child who can, I
don't know, maybe plays up regularly or is, you know, that
behaviour is not great, that then does the right thing.
They'll get sort of praised and rewarded for it.
And, and a lot of people have said like, you've got to be
careful in comparison, because the child who's always doing the
right thing, who just didn't get in any way for doing the thing
that the other child that doesn't normally do the right
thing has now just done, sees that.
Yeah. And might, you know, might.
And also you got remember in this, in this, in this example,
their children, yeah, who are learning.
And I do think there's another difference between when you're a
fully grown adult doing these things.
So I do think there is room to be praising children who make
progress no matter where they're at.
And the moral of that story to me is that you should be giving
praise to the other child more exactly.
It's not about you shouldn't be giving it to the child who's
redeeming themselves because, A, they're learning and they're a
child, and B, they have redeemed.
And like I said earlier, it's not against redemption,
obviously. Obviously it's better to redeem
yourself, but it's more about when they're a child still
praising the other person for always making the right
decisions and not letting them be lost in the ether of just,
oh, well, they're a good kid, let's just ignore them.
Yeah. And when you're an adult, it's
different because you're an adult.
Yeah. You You are now fully, fully
independent of making your own choices.
But it is an interesting thought experiment either way.
You know, from a child perspective, adult perspective,
and clearly you know. So ECT one who wrote in.
Hopefully you can bring this up. I still think it's worth
bringing up. I still think it's worth
advocating for yourself, I just don't give people a free pass.
No, and that's fine and I don't think we should give people a
free pass, but I think it's worth understanding that there
are different types of people out there when you're talking to
them. Should I just, should I
summarise my point again so I get the final word or no?
I think I've summarised my final point and final word and I think
we should move on. Go on after my summary.
So the next question. Is I just think.
You can come in with the answer for that question.
Ring up on another 10 minutes. Here we go.
What is the highlight of your careers in education so far,
both in the classroom and outside?
Certainly all those bloody holidays we got you crazy man,
do you want? To start with in the classroom.
Or yeah, in the classroom, and I'm going to take this as just
in teaching in general. The highlight for me was
definitely, well, one of the highlights.
There's lots. I like anything where where
we're a bit off time to were not rigidly sad.
They're just doing traditional lessons, which sounds ridiculous
because that was 99% of my time as teacher.
I liked it when we went outside and just the kids were happy and
exploring. I liked anything when the
children felt like they were in charge of their own learning.
And I know it's not like an individual thing I'm going to
talk about necessarily, but when when we'd go out with our books
and and we'd just do some sketching.
Oh, what's the outcome? How can we possibly track that
the children know what shading is and the different words for
the different types of the foliage and all that kind of, I
don't care. Kids were just happy and, and
sketching and they were learning how to sketch and they were
talking to their friends and they were becoming better
people. All of those things notes the
children give you that. I, I, I still hold on.
Some of those notes still have them where it's like, here's a
note that a child who is, who is 8 years old has independently
gone up and thought, I need to write this down and give it to
this person because they're important to me and they've done
this thing for me that's really helped me.
And I understand that And no one's put them up to it and they
want to give you that note, the best feeling in the world.
And one last one is probably, I think back to COVID times when
we were in bubbles and we had a little bubble and we emptied the
store cupboard for a PEP equipment because we were going
to tidy it. So in between tidying that and
whilst we're cleaning it and stuff and putting it back away
after we said, OK, kids, here's the entire PE cupboard.
Make an obstacle course that covers the entire playground.
The best thing ever because the kids were just having so much
fun. It was active, it was it was
problem solving, it was teamwork, it was team building.
Best things ever. Those moments where children
develop in those ways, we need to find more ways to get that
into school in general because of those are my highlights.
When I think back of my teaching career, those are what stick out
to me as like, I felt like I was doing a good job and the kids
were happy. It's funny how it's always the
moments of just kind of pure connection with the children.
Do you know what I mean? It's like, are some of my
highlights, could I look back and like find some highlights
where the data was good? Honestly, I probably could say,
Oh yeah, this year, every year. Yeah, because the the data was
really good this year and it was better than average or whether
like, but they're not really like proper highlights to me.
They're they're cool things. We, you know, you can say, oh,
that was good. It's a result of what you do
day-to-day. It's nice.
Yeah, right. It's not what you're hanging
your hat on, is it? No.
When you when you look back on your career, you know what we
going. I'm so glad that child got past
that arbitrary threshold. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But one, one of the ones for me was going to be the the time
that we took all the kids out. We were in the same bubble.
We were it was me and you and yeah, we just let we just let
loose. It was it was so good.
And I even remember 11 just very tiny moment.
This is just like a thing for me and you just add to this story,
right was when all the kids were playing basketball and and I
jokingly or I can't remember who went first now, but one of.
Us. No, you went.
First it was me. It was me.
I went first. I was like, yeah, look at me.
And you know how as a teacher, we just you always like you do
things pretending to be cool. And if they, if they, it
happened one in 100 times, they work.
You pretend that that was you just, yeah, great.
I just from like half court just lobbed the basketball over the
back of my head and it went in and everyone was like, and then
you came along and also did it like first time.
And it was insane because everyone was like, what?
As if they've just done this And the kids were just so happy and
so high. And then they played basketball
for like 3 hours because they were just, they just wanted to
play basketball. And I was like, this is cool.
Just like every day when we because we did our little
bubble, we're in for the week, weren't we?
I think. And every day.
And then they'd obviously we'd spend as much time outside as
possible because this was in COVID times.
Yeah. And I'd just make up a game.
Yeah, just make up a game would be complete nonsense.
And I felt like I was 12 again in my own garden.
And some of those. Yeah.
I'd make up a game that was
completely arbitrary. And I was like, oh, it's five
points to be behind this random line, but if you do it past that
line, then your name's Bob. Yeah.
Like complete nonsense. But if you park all around this
wall and land in the handstand, you can actually get 100.
Points for that? Yeah, exactly.
What? Sorry, what?
Yeah, completely arbitrary nonsense, but it was so fun and
it it, to me, it just went to show that like, you know, there
are more important things for sure.
And obviously part of our job is really important of basic
numeracy and reading and stuff, but there is a line somewhere
where actually the kids can just be kids, please.
But definitely my highlights were those moments for sure.
I've got, I've got two other highlights. 1 is on in respect
of that. It's just a funny one.
It was actually demolishing all the children at laser tag that I
took. I took a year six class once.
The laser tag is like a reward paintballing thing.
Obviously I played as well, yeah, like paintballing and
absolutely did not hold back whatsoever.
So yeah, I was proud, proud to be the victor of that one.
But the other one, more wholesome, is.
What, you'd struggle to not get more wholesome than completely
destroying the enjoyment for the kid?
Kids thinking I'm going to have a nice day at laser tag.
Let's see who wins. Oh, it's Mr Steven to beat us
by. Five times he's just done
another front roll, forward roll and he's hurt his back.
He's broken his hip. He's still going.
He has. He has just got me precisely on
my little laser bit. Same class.
Funnily enough, it was a girl who she was just the sweetest
soul, such such a kind girl and she struggled with learning and
like it was E 6 and she desperately, desperately,
desperately wanted to get expected in maths.
And I know we shouldn't go out of the standards, but like for
her. It's all I want.
But she really, really, really wanted to prove herself.
And that's that's fine. And which is fine, genuinely for
like for her, like she'd never genuinely never got expected in
an assessment. Before.
Don't you think that says more about her journey through school
and what's like? It does like.
Let's just make that before anyone gets annoyed.
I was talking about this whole. Some story I agree the the
expected thing was almost just literally just a way that
existed that she could measure something of it like improvement
she wanted to she hadn't got it before and she just wanted to
get it right in maths and she. Got she got two in the end she
got two really like never spoke to her.
Again, never spoke to her again, no.
But anyway, I saw her out and about she so I'm skipping ahead
to find a story. She got expected in so her in
her sats results she. Quite an important by that.
Story She just got expected and she was like genuinely over the
moon. Like I remember her and her mum
like almost in tears. And then I saw her like 2-3
maybe four years later. This was a while back now out
and about in like a local shopping centre.
And she did not hesitate to just stop whatever she was doing and
ran over with her mum to just have a conversation with me and
speak to me. And like she was beaming.
And I don't know, it was just something about that moment
where I was like, this is so special and so nice.
The fact that whatever we did together in that class and for
that one year, I went off and did another class and another
class, another class. And you've taught thousands of
kids for her, that was a special time.
And she felt achieved. And she went on to feel like she
could do maths and, and she was successful and then wanted to
come and have a conversation with me like in, in a random
place where she could have easily just walked past and go,
oh look, it was Mr Stevens over. There, which is what you were
trying to do, you'd see him I. Was like Oh no I've just been
caught by another kid who loves me.
I haven't got time. The 4th 1:00 today.
God, goodness me should keep filming.
Yeah, keep filming. But that, to me, like sits in my
brain as what I've loved about this job.
Definitely, absolutely. And As for outside, I don't know
if this means education, but outside or not like, yeah, I
don't know if you really deep what we've done in the last year
or two with this podcast, it's easy to like kind of forget what
would like realistically like we've we've done quite a bit in
terms of meeting amazing people who are also in the space
working on the mass platform we're working on right now maths
to just it. I feel quite, very, very lucky
to be fair that it's kind of worked out for us.
Definitely. Even even.
You're probably thinking it even recently we went to the National
Literacy Trust Gala in London and we're invited with the
Premier League. Like, that was pretty cool.
Yeah, that was. Sweet.
I had dinner with Cresta Cowell. Yeah.
Hi, Cresta. She was so nice.
She was so lovely. She signed up.
Books and stuff filled with people like, you know, Julia
Donaldson was there. Yeah.
Axel Scheffler was on this on the stage sketching.
I've got a 2 year old son. Do you like this is like the
equivalent of me seeing Sir Alex Ferguson being like the biggest
thing in the world. So yeah, things like that.
It is crazy. Do I have to pinch ourselves
sometimes? And we've got some really
exciting stuff coming up. So how much?
We're very exciting, but it's going to be.
Nah, let's not. Let's.
Tease them. Let's tease them.
Exciting things coming up. Let's.
Scroll to the 4th slide and find out what that sick thing is.
I'm not bitter about it, stupid. Trick to you, funny enough,
leads nicely into our next question.
Go on, Having left teaching, when do you think you'll be far
enough away from the job to not justify doing a podcast about
it? That is.
We got to send something, do we? Yeah, go on, we get to send
stuff. All the time.
But we got to send something today in our WhatsApp community,
which you can join down below about someone else who's, how
can I say, prominent in the space, talking about how they're
fed up of teacher podcasts or teaching podcasts, not including
teachers in them. Yeah, yeah.
Current teachers not. Yeah, like not being in podcasts
or if it says it's teaching podcasts and it should have
teachers in it, etcetera. And obviously, I mean, like the
person sitting here says, oh, here you go guys.
Like look at this. Because everyone knows we, we
left the classroom last September.
But like, I don't know what, what do you, what's your gut
instinct about? Like just in general, do you
think there'll be a point where we're like what we can't
possibly talk about anymore? No, I like, I did it for 10
years. I haven't just forgotten that.
And we talked about earlier, like when I said you haven't
just forgotten what the ECT journey is like.
Don't give yourself that cop out.
It doesn't work the other way. Yeah.
I'm going to spend 10 years of my life teaching.
I know it quite well. Of course, I think it's less
about time and more genuinely about just what actually
changes. For example, there's two
situations the same five years, honestly, nothing changes,
right? I'd I'd feel pretty confident I
can still talk about it. And we obviously have guests on
the things all the time. And we work in education ground
and are in school. We were in a school last week.
We're in. Schools, we're not, we're not
just away from the classroom because we're not a classroom
teacher completely. But I do think there is some
merit in if over time, if loads and loads of things change and
the experience of being a classroom teacher is
significantly different to what I experienced.
I think some of you could justify the idea that it's like,
of course my opinions are not as valid as there is if they've
been teaching the whole five years.
Yeah. So I do think there's some truth
in it, but I don't think it is as cutthroat as like, the second
you leave the classroom, you're now so invalid you can't even
talk about the experience of being a teacher, including
getting people on that still teach, including going into
schools yourself. But you're not a class.
Yeah, it doesn't count anymore. Let's be realistic.
In three years of doing this podcast, we probably had 10
different guests. It's not like we get people on
all that's true. Oh, we're getting someone on.
We're probably not, are we? That's good.
We. Had two guests the last two
weeks. We did have guests, so therefore
I can pretend that that's always the.
Case yeah, I don't know, I I, I struggle with it a bit because I
think also I think people don't really understand that when you
build your base of people, like we've got a huge following, very
grateful people. Lots of people listen to this
podcast. They only listen to it because
they relate to it and it's good. Yeah, right.
So it's not like, oh, they're tricking, but no, no, people are
enjoying it. That's why it grows and that's
why reels do well and that's why because it's relatable still.
So it's like it's not relatable anymore.
Well, it is. I'm not being funny.
Like I don't listen. People stop listening.
And if anything, we've grown since we left.
I think there there's a couple of things.
One is if you're pretending to be a teacher when you're not.
I absolutely agree that that's just ridiculous.
We've never ever done that No, we've we said we've done post
about the literal most listened 2 episode is the one where we
said we have quit teaching. It couldn't be more black and
white, plain in your face. Yeah.
And we regularly reference the fact that we've.
Left and if you literally listen to the episode, it's not it's
not a way out. Oh yeah, I had a good maths
session this week doing the numeracy.
Yeah, yeah, they did the letters L No, it didn't.
It wasn't any class I wasn't teaching.
And then. Do numeracy in school anymore?
Numeracy. Oh God, I read about it.
The, the other thing was about, you know, there are some people
out there and by the way, bear in mind we don't teach at all
and we do teach podcasts or education all the time.
So I clearly think that's OK. There are people out there who
have very, very, very, very, very small timetables or work
part time or do a bit of teaching every now and then that
is, is consistent. And they can still say, I'm a
teacher, I do this. But is there a line then?
Like is it just, it's all fair game?
You, you know what you're talking about until it's 0.
If you're in for half a day a week, that's fine.
You're as you, you've got as much knowledge as someone who's
working full time or someone who's working nought .8 or
someone who's working nought .4. Or you work in the independent
sector in a private school. You don't work in a public
school, so you can only talk about that.
Oh, and you've gone to teach abroad and then you teach in a
different country, so you can only teach about that.
You can't possibly talk about this, this system now because
you're not actually in there. I, I think we all agree that if
we're going to have some weird line, then you have to be really
strict about it and where you're going to put your line.
And if your line is just, if you are completely out the
classroom, you shouldn't be talking about it.
But if you're 1 toe in it, then it's fine.
That seems ridiculous. Yeah, that one, that one seems
the most crazy to me. I think it's just, yeah, it's
just flexible, isn't it? It depends on the context of
what you're talking about as well.
Exactly. OK, let's say you are half a day
a week in a school and like there are there are obviously a
lot of things that you can still talk about.
You're literally still part of that school community regardless
of how much you're in there. But it there might be some
topics that you don't feel as as quick to talk about after over
time, I don't know. But if you work in a school in a
different country, the same thing happens.
It's just different contexts that, OK, you might feel really
confident talking about certain aspects of the job, but also now
you don't work in any UK school. So there are some parts that you
just, I don't know if you think there's this line, then OK, then
you're saying that you can't talk about these things anymore.
I actually think we can all talk about everything genuinely.
And, and I to answer this question, I still stand by what
I said in terms of, I think there is a risk of some drop off
of understanding, knowledge of, of not living and breathing,
being a classroom teacher, if it changes over time, which it
will, which it will. But I, I really, really like
strongly do not believe that by being an unlimited timetable or
coming out of class, I mean, you can no longer talk about it
doesn't make any sense. I think the public can talk
about education and I think they should have opinions.
And then they work in schools in any capacity.
They've never worked in a school.
Like we're talking about people that don't, but I think they
should have opinions. It's a public service.
So yeah, my 10 years does actually equip me quite well to
talk about it pretty pretty effectively.
And I think I do agree though, like if you're pretending, then
that's. The pretending 1 is definitely
right. I think people that why are you
doing that if you're just lying? Lying is different to having an
opinion on something. It's like having a podcast
called A Teach that you repeat when you don't do one of them.
Do you think do we need to change it?
No, I'm not changing it. I think we should.
No, I teach her every week on how to have a good argument.
There you go. So yeah, let's go to the next
one. Cool.
If Ofsted are in and they see a student on a mobile phone,
should they automatically be placed in urgent attention in an
area? And if so, which one?
Now this, I think, I think this question was from someone I've
spoken to death about this before.
And it's interesting because obviously there are lots of
people who understand dangerous smartphones and social media and
how it can be really distracting in class.
But the point, the wider point here as well is like, basically,
whose fault is it? You know, if if a child is seen
in an off state inspector with their phone out in lesson, yeah.
Should that be an indicator somehow that the school is
failing and it's down to the school or is it just the
individual person they should be sanctioned that it's obviously
not school's fault? I think it's really interesting
question. It's a very interesting question
because based on everything we've ever talked about in this
in this field, we've always established that no matter what
rules are in place, there will always be a child who pushes the
rules and breaks the rules. Yeah.
So like, you can't actually have 100% control.
No, but of a situation that's I completely agree with that.
And then like my, my, my gut instinct here is that obviously
not you shouldn't be put into urgent attention with one child
on their phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's not it's not even, it's not even the law that schools
have to ban. It's like very, very strong
guidance, right. So, so I think that's too much,
but I, I, I kind of get it because OK, Ofsted go in and
this is not, I'm not equating these things, but I'm just
saying, is there a point where what a child does reflects on
the school Ofsted go in, a child's got a knife.
Should there be something in the school like where you're like,
actually, obviously this needs urgent attention.
How on earth has a child got a knife into the school?
So what's leadership doing? So the other part of this
question is, if so, which area is it?
Behaviour? Behaviour is an area.
And could you say that if you're on your phone not listening to
your teacher? Well, behaviour is an issue,
behaviour inherently. Is it going to be judged on what
the children are doing or should it be judged on what things you
have in place and how you implement them?
That seems more fair to me. Yeah, I get it.
And I wouldn't even put that, I wouldn't even put the individual
behaviours of a child in Austin inspection as means to mark
someone as bad for behaviour because you can't control that.
No, what you can control as a school is your policies and your
implementation. And obviously that leadership
comes into it as well. Safeguarding comes into it as
well. And I think the act of a child
having the mobile phone itself should not be putting you into
urgent attention. However, if there's a
lackadaisical approach to it and leadership are like, yeah, kids
do that sometimes and they well, what you going to do then that
would urgently require. Attention, that's what I'm
thinking. I was literally imagining like
the 2 ends of the spectrum in my head here of like 2 schools
imagine. But in both contexts, the offset
inspector has seen a child on their phone.
It's just exactly the same situation, right?
But in one school, they have like like layers and layers of
policies of, of ways that they're trying to combat this.
And, and it's just happens to be that that child has just really
broken all the rules and they've been very sneaky and but
naughty. And in another school, they just
don't have any of these policies.
And all they do is say to the kids put them away.
But that's as far as they go. They don't really have anything
top down. It's inconsistent across the
school. The idea of banding them both as
the same thing is absurd to me because they're not the same
thing, but the trigger is the same in both of them.
And, and an offset inspector would have seen the same thing.
So that's why I completely agree.
Like the actions of an individual child on the
inspection can't be what's driving because then it really
is a lottery. It really is a lottery because
we've worked in fantastic schools where things have
happened where in isolation, if you took no context whatsoever
and you wanted to be that dismissive of it against the
school, the school could absolutely be brandished as, Oh
my gosh, this is the worst thing in the world.
Well, no, because we reacted in a certain way and we put things
in place that it wouldn't happen, but it still did.
But that, that has to be, that has to have room for that.
And like just even like maybe a slightly wider point to this.
If, if it takes a student being seen on their mobile phone by an
often inspector to, for that to make them think about whether
they should check if there's a policy that just already already
seems weird. And I'm like, they should
already be doing this anyway. Like the it's almost like that
shouldn't be the trigger. I, I know it sounds what I said,
but like, I think, I think because it's such a big thing
anyway, like as I've said, I should already be looking really
at what the safeguarding policies are, what policies are
there are behaviour and already thinking to themselves.
We know that social media and phones are a massive thing in
secondary schools. I probably would have already at
some point thought about this and looked at it like, I find
that weird. They go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa, that's a praise. Sorry, you've got kids.
Do your kids have phones in this school?
One of them is on it. What are you doing?
Right. I need to bring up, you know,
urgent attention. What are you doing about mobile
phones? Because I've just seen one and
I'm worried because the last three schools didn't see any.
They didn't think. About it.
So you're talking to a brick. Oh.
God, God, you've got my mobile phone, kid.
You're playing Snake. I'm going to put the school down
for a safeguarding policy because a kid stole my phone,
the awesome inspector and started.
Using the iCloud unlocked on the table?
Well, what are you going to do? Excuse me, sorry, that child in
there in your class has got unrestricted access to the
Internet and no one's monitoring them.
That's your phone. You're on YouTube reels watching
brain rot. My brain rot.
I'm messing up my algorithm. God right?
I'm going to come and do this one then.
So what do you think about SLT and its non teaching leaders who
share an office having their own fridge and kettle so they don't
have to enter the star from with the others?
OK, it's just a bit weird. It's a bit weird, a bit of a red
flag, isn't it? Because it you know, OK, I'm
trying to think of the reasons why you might do this space.
You might think, oh, do you know what?
Let's just let's just spread this out a bit.
But the, the way it's like a small group of people who are
also the leaders of the school being separate to the rest of
the school feels like a power dynamic and almost like we can't
mix with them because that would mean, you know, our downtime,
we'd have to go and see them. And I want to maintain this it
aura of I'm the leader and what I say goes.
It feels a bit like they're trying to preserve that rather
than can actually just exist as a human being, which which
involves just mixing with people.
Potentially, I think it's easy to jump into the on the bam.
I'm going to be like, oh, it's because like the worst reasons
possible. But I did 3-4.
I did start. No, no, I know, I know.
I'm just saying I'm almost thinking from this perspective
really because like the the question is already posed in
that way of like so they don't have to enter the start from
with the others. Like do we know that?
Do we know that for sure? Is it easy?
So they don't have to enter the start from with others as in
like is it implying? Are we implying here that
because they why else want to because they didn't want to
think? I don't know why else would you
think I'm actually going to get a cat in the fridge here when
there's a cat in the fridge there?
Like you would only do that so you don't have to go in there.
Yeah, sure, but the reasons might not be bad.
But there but it is only so you don't have to go in there.
Yeah, I suppose so. I suppose it doesn't.
Yeah, objectively it doesn't make sense.
I guess I was already adding an implication in that question
that. Your own bias coming through, is
it? I don't think we should be the
bias that I'm. I'm attributing to this myself.
Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's true.
I have actually absolutely done that because it doesn't actually
suggest that all. But I was assuming they're
saying like oh, because they think they're better than.
US but but like if it's if that fridge in that kettle was for
everyone because I'm just spreading the load out a bit so
it's not really busy in the in the staff room, then that would
make complete sense. But it's not specifically for
SRT who are in that office so that they don't have to go into
the staff room. Like that is the only reason
they do that in that small little office.
It's not to spread the load as it could just be for everyone.
It's just so they can not go in there.
And I think it to me it's a bit like.
Yeah, odd. I'm trying to think of the
reasons. I'm trying to think why someone
would do it. The only reasons I can think of
other than the one the obvious ones of like they just don't
want to, they don't want to mingle with the staff is they
don't, they don't want to go in there because they think they
might get asked questions and they want to avoid them.
Well, that's exactly what you that's not different.
That's the same reason as what you just said, no?
No, no, not necessarily because I just not Ming to the staff.
It's just a power thing of like, oh, I'm too.
I'm too good to be. Right, because because of that,
because they don't want they want to maintain that aura and
not like go on the level of like, oh, like they'll come to
Pally where they feel like people can ask them those kind
of questions. Well, I don't think it's.
Kind of the same thing. I mean, it's literally just like
just avoidance of like, oh, that I know that person's going to
chase me up on this thing and I haven't done it.
So if I just don't go in the room then I can avoid those kind
of things. Maybe.
Yeah, yeah. The other one is if it's literal
physical space, which seems ridiculous to me.
Like if it's like, oh, it's the other end of the building.
That seems a bit of a stretch. And the last one is, and the
only one I can think of that could possibly be a, a positive
thinking about our own SRT from the past is that they like
providing like a safe space for teachers and other staff where
they can just feel like they can talk about whether they want and
not feel like they've got SLT breathing over their shoulder
and listening into that conversation.
What's that got to do with where we worked?
Because I felt like we mingled a lot.
No, we did, but I know there were certain situations,
particularly when it comes to like staff nights and things
where our SLT would purposely make a point of, oh, separate to
this example, not this example, yeah.
But like, because our SLT would share the staff, remember?
They would, they would. Yeah, sorry, I should have made
that really clear. But the the the concept of SLT
thinking, I want to give my staff space where I'm not there
so they can just be comfortable talking or even moaning about
stuff where I'm just not constantly not constantly at
risk of me being around. I can understand that thought
training, but but that's it. I can't read like that's the
extent of my reasoning on that one.
I don't. I think it's probably more
likely that it's a negative thing and they're like, it's
like a power thing. But yeah, I don't know.
It's a bit strange, isn't it? Well, let's do the last
question. What is your favourite thing you
have started doing or noticed since leaving in the classroom?
Like something you hadn't anticipated but you love?
Oh. Spending time with my child.
I didn't. I didn't.
You didn't anticipate that. No, I was like, I can't believe
that this is nice. I can't believe this is a good
thing to do. I actually quite like not having
to repeat myself 64 times before 9:00 AM.
That's I quite like that is. That true with your son because
I feel like I repeat myself a lot before.
Worry, no, no we can't. We can't have our 54th Weetabix
of the morning and actually we're eating 7 bananas in a row
is not good for. You.
Is he still in this two banana phase?
Yeah, 100 percent, 100% every morning.
So every single morning when he gets up, he's excited when it's
me getting him up because he knows that we can get 2 bananas.
Whereas Lauren's a bit more like sensible, sensible baby.
So Rory will get up and if I go into his room he'll go Nana on
the sofa, Nana on the sofa, 2 Nana on the sofa.
I'm like, come on, let's go. We'll share the Nana.
No, Rory, not share the Nana. 2 Nana on the sofa.
And we go down some days where I'm like, I'll just pick off 1
banana and he'll just go no, no, two Nana, 2 Nana.
So we get 2 nanas and then he goes on the other sofa because
we've got the other sofa in the front room.
He wants to sit on a specific sofa.
He sits down and he eats his two nanas and then he has a bit of
Weetabix. And that's his, that's his
breakfast. And he is.
There's been days where we've forgotten to get an honour.
Oh dear. And we've ran out of them and.
Meltdown. Not good.
Anyway, we digress Yeah, his favourite thing you started
doing notice it, Steve in the classroom is.
I don't know, I guess this is ridiculous.
And I, you know, you know, I love teaching and I think, I
still think I'll go back to teaching one day, but not being
genuinely exhausted at the. Yeah, I was going to go there
is. Is insane and people were
listening to this going oh it's all right for these guys guys
I'm just talking to you as a human being who's done this job
and I'm saying that you you are right when you when you talk
about how exhausted you are at the end of the week it's not
made-up because I've seen the other option which is just not
being that and you don't have to feel that way and it's insane do
we work hard Yeah. Do we work long hours yeah.
But it but it is indescribable what being a classroom teacher
actually does mentally and physically to you because it is
exhausting. Yeah, I, I agree.
I agree. And kind of in the same vein,
weekends just having weekends again, like my weekends are so
true, really quite straightforward now in terms of
it is very established in our household that it's like, oh,
the weekend we just, we stopped working now we actually just
spend time together and that wasn't a thing you take for
granted like that was not a thing like the weekends.
Although in teaching, it varied for a start across my career in
terms of how much my weekends are impacted.
Also, I was always thinking about it.
But even if I did have a weekend where I didn't do any work or
did a very limited amount of work, I was always thinking
about the work I have to do, like constantly on my mind that
I can, I can actually separate that now.
So even though again, I wanna make it really clear we put in
shifts across the week now like we work hard and we spend a lot
of time in on Monday to Friday working cost a year on lots of
stuff every week. But when it gets to the weekend,
I genuinely feel like I can be like look, shut that off So
true. I hadn't noticed that I did that
and only retrospectively again because it becomes your new
normal, doesn't it? Oh sorry, this says only things
you've noticed so you can't talk about this Actually sorry sorry
I didn't mean to go. I'm not stipple for the rules
and if you say you've started noticing if.
You'd like me to talk more about this?
Please send in the question about things I haven't noticed.
I'm going to stop there. I totally threw you off there,
sorry. No, I can't talk about it.
It's. Fine.
Oh, it has a you hadn't anticipated.
Oh yeah, no. I love.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like being in complete control
of my time. Yeah, I like being in complete
control of my time. That's a good way of getting
around it because I had noticed that.
Yeah. Where?
Yeah. You know, if we want to work
from 8:00 AM till till, you know, 4:00 PM, then have the
kids and, and, and see them and do stuff with them and then work
from 7:00 till 10. We can if we want to do that.
But it's, it's just so much, so much more chilled out.
And if you're in teaching, please don't think that this is
normal. It's not normal when people say,
Oh, everyone works hard. I'm absolutely sure loads of
people work hard. But it, it don't let that
diminish what you're actually going through because obviously
there are some jobs that are more tiring than others.
And until you actually are in the job doing it.
And as we have stepped out of it, only then do I realise, I
mean, always go back to the person I trained with, Paul, who
had a whole career before going into teaching.
We did our APGC together and he was in his 40s.
Yep. And he went into school and he
was like, he knew that everyone, the group, small group we were
with, we, we all basically gone straight into it.
And he, he said to us all repeatedly, I was like, guys,
you've got, you've got to know this is not normal.
This is not a normal amount of work.
This is not a normal amount of stress.
This is he was an engineer. Yeah, he did a physical, he was.
A physical labour engineer and he said that it was not
comparable in terms of the the the burnout and the workload and
everything he has to do despite all the holidays and etcetera.
Everyone wants to say. So when you listen to people
who've done both, they invariably say teaching is
ridiculously hard. So don't listen to the to to
what Andrew on Instagram who's 57 with a picture of a
motorbike, who's never done a day of working and teaching in
his life, who thinks that he's got it hard like and he wants to
detriment you. He might have it hard, but as
soon as it goes over to therefore dismissing you and
something he's never actually done himself, don't spend 2
seconds thinking about it because it's nonsense.
Yeah, yeah. The problem, the problem is that
when people go to the absolute, so like the argument becomes, is
teaching the hardest job in the world or not?
And then, but sometimes teachers do it, they say this, this is
the hardest job. I actually find that most of the
time they don't. And people put that implication
on themselves that teachers are saying they think they have the
hardest job. They're actually just saying my
job is really tough and it's stressful.
It they're not, they're not saying, therefore I've got it
the worst. Other jobs are as tough, if not
tougher, right. But in terms of on the scale, it
is up there though, teaching is utterly, utterly exhausting,
along with lots of other utterly, utterly exhausting
jobs. I think the gap between how hard
it's perceived and how hard it is is actually one of the
biggest. Yeah.
From teaching, because there's a lot of jobs that are as hard as
teaching or harder that everyone accepts.
Oh gosh, yeah, that's hard. Like AC Trawler, they say like,
Oh my God, that is a hard job. And everyone knows not to do
that. And we all know that.
And that is a, let's say it's a 9.5 out of 10 in terms of
hardness. And everyone thinks it's a nine.
They don't quite get how hard it is.
It's like a bit more. Whereas teaching, let's just
say, for argument's sake, I'm not saying it's this for anyone
that's annoyed. Let's just say it's a 7 out of
10. Yeah, but most people think it's
a 2 out of 10. So that okay guys, I'm not
saying it's as hard as that job that's a 9.5, but you are way
off in what you understand and it is actually a really hard job
and you think it's easy. So that discrepancy I think is
where a lot of this comes from. Definitely assume it's easy I.
Think that's probably the best way to do it.
The gap, the gap, the perception gap, The perception gap.
I love it the. Title of my new book you can get
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I've not. You can't.
We don't do things to sell. Never read a book.
We don't do things to sell like a Matthew.
Trial we just stole my joke but. Yeah, that's come along nicely
after Easter, a lot more trial is so get involved and you know
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Sad. Anyway, let's finish up there
guys. Thank you so much.
Please share this with someone you think might find it nice to
listen to. Useful is what I normally say
when I do a YouTube video, but that's when I'm teaching
something. And this is called teacher at
your pain. We don't do teaching.
So I actually don't see a fever You.
Can't do that. I'm never going to do it again.
So never repeating. See you never.