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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach 

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Sleep Repeat. 
My name is Dylan. 

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And my name is Hayden. 
And is we, we wanna make it 

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really clear that you know who 
we are? 

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Because quite often, I guess I 
say, is Dylan the bald one? 

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No. 
No, no. 

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How do they describe you then? 
There. 

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Is no, he's the one. 
We'll let you guys throw that in

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would. 
You put into that now phrase, 

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there's something something 
Dylan. 

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He's the gorgeous one. 
He's the gorgeous one. 

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That's all I was waiting for. 
Give you a nice. 

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One, that's all I was waiting 
for. 

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Someone did do a comment the 
other day about that joke that 

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we always say, which was it was 
both of us were in the video. 

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It was a clip on the podcast and
it it was we were talking about 

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something to do at school and 
this guy commented absolutely 

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nothing to do with what the 
actual reel was about and just 

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commented saying these two guys 
have the right amount of hair 

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for two people just in the wrong
place. 

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What? 
Thanks mate, some serious point 

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like that. 
It's. 

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Schools are at crisis funding 
point. 

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You've got lots of hair. 
He doesn't know. 

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Brilliant. 
I've got, I've got to mention a 

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comment we got this week. 
I really tried to stay positive 

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because we get so many amazing 
messages and comments and lovely

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stuff all the time. 
And I, I genuinely don't mind 

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when people disagree with stuff 
because we put stuff that can be

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quite controversial out there, 
like opinions that people don't 

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often say out loud maybe. 
And some people might genuinely 

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have a disagreement and I don't 
mind that at all. 

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But there are two times where I 
kind of feel like I need to 

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reply to someone. 1 is where 
we've explained something in a 

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real like really clearly. 
Like for example the one I can 

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think of straight away is the 
teacher martyr 1. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
Yeah, we, we said a teacher 

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martyr is someone who puts hours
and hours and hours extra 

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outside of work. 
OK, into the job. 

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Yeah, and judges other people 
who don't do that. 

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Yeah, OK. 
We very clearly said that it's 

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about the whole idea of you 
judging other people. 

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You wear as badger one or you 
think other people who don't do 

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it. 
The whole package. 

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The whole package, Yeah, yeah. 
The amount of people who 

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commented on it going. 
I completely disagree. 

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I work extremely hard, thank 
you. 

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And I'm not a martyr and I just,
I, I feel the need to, I need to

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reply because I'm like, OK, so 
this person did this and I 

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replied saying, do you judge 
other people who do less than 

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you and think they're a worse 
teacher because of it? 

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Because if you don't, then I am 
not talking about you. 

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And then the reply was just, 
well, I think it's quite rude 

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actually. 
I'm like, Oh my God. 

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And she, she literally said, 
well, I thought this was a place

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for discussion. 
Clearly not. 

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I can't just air my opinion. 
And I was like, look, no, I 

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don't mind people saying things 
back that disagree, but one, you

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have to like reference correctly
what I said in the 1st place. 

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And #2A discussion involves two 
people. 

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When I replied to you, you can't
go well, I thought this was a 

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discussion. 
Yes, I'm replying. 

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I'm going to having a 
discussion. 

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Joe at least watch the reel 
before anyway, I love, I love 

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seeing you get triggered. 
I love it. 

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I love it when I sometimes you 
run the Instagram, I'll look 

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through the post and I'll see 
some comments and I'll see one 

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reply and I'm like, I'm like, 
here we go. 

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I'm going to open this up and 
it's going to be Dylan being 

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really sarky. 
I try so hard because I ignore 

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quite a lot of comments and if 
people disagree, I'll have like 

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a conversation with you. 
I kind of understand what you 

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mean. 
That's I think this because of 

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that, but I completely get what 
you mean when someone just like 

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completely misrepresents what 
you say in the literal video 

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they're commenting on. 
I'm just What is wrong with you?

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I'm not talking about you. 
Loads of people work really hard

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as a teacher. 
I don't think you're a martyr 

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because of that. 
I think you're a martyr because 

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of the way you act about it. 
If that's you, if it's not you, 

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I am not talking about you. 
Keep scrolling. 

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Yeah, Yeah. 
And if it's. 

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Rude. 
Dylan, It's rude. 

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OK. 
You're making comments about 

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other people. 
Yeah, whatever. 

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But the other and at least 
they're trying to back up their 

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corner and and argue for 
something. 

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The other type are just people I
think are insane. 

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And with those I tend to just 
like leave a laughy face or 

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something because I'm just like,
I can't even be bothered. 

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What was? 
That one, the other, you did 

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something, yeah. 
So this is the one that if you 

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follow Instagram at teach PPP 
podcast, which everyone should 

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do by the way just need it 20K 
followers by the way yeah 

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amazing one on Anyway, someone 
commented I did a meme. 

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So firstly it's a meme. 
Anyone leaving a serious comment

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on a meme honestly getting the 
bin it's a meme. 

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It's a joke. 
Anyway, this meme was the 

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caption was something like when 
a child says, oh, my teacher did

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elf on the shelf last year. 
I can't wait to see what the elf

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gets up to this year. 
And then the idea was underneath

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it was me as in the teacher and 
it was just someone going I 

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don't think I'll be doing that. 
Basically, I because I don't do 

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elf on the shelf, but I 
personally think it's a waste of

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time and I don't like it. 
If you do it all, all goodness 

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to you. 
I don't care. 

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Brilliant. 
I don't honestly. 

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Well, you don't. 
Think it's objectively bad. 

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Yeah, I don't think it's 
objectively bad. 

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I don't think it's objectively 
good. 

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I get when people say you 
shouldn't do it because of XI, 

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get when people say I do it 
because why? 

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Sometimes you're allowed to have
a disagreement. 

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There's not one right answer 
here. 

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I don't think you don't. 
Care whatever, I just. 

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Don't care, I don't do it. 
Whatever someone commented 

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going. 
If you seriously can't be 

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bothered to do something like 
this for the kids, then I don't 

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think teaching is for you. 
It was just like, I was just 

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like, and she was being dead 
serious, right? 

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And I was just like in my head. 
I came out of seven different 

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replies that one, one was 
serious, one was funny, 1 was 

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witty, and I just landed on 4 
laughing, crying emoji faces. 

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I can't even do that because you
know what? 

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I knew other people underneath 
would reply and they did all the

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replying for me. 
There are actually people out 

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there who genuinely right will 
judge teachers based on things 

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like that before even seeing 
them teach. 

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The amount of people I've seen 
online say to me, well you're 

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clearly not a good teacher 
because there's something I've 

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said that is completely separate
to my actual ability. 

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To really far removed from 
really, if you think about if 

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someone said like write down on 
paper, what's a teacher? 

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They wouldn't, they wouldn't 
even they wouldn't even write 

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that thing down. 
It's like it wouldn't even be on

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the list. 
Yeah, genuinely, it's like you 

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have absolutely no idea how much
time and effort I put into 

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teaching, how good I am at 
teacher. 

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I could honestly, to this 
person, you could be the best 

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teacher in the world. 
Like you don't do half on the 

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shelf. 
Yeah, that classroom, but 

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either. 
All right, DJ, are you? 

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Oh. 
Let me guess, you haven't even 

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got them all a Christmas present
each individually wrapped with a

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Christmas card that you've made 
at home. 

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I bet you haven't even done 
that, have you? 

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Yeah, guys, nuance. 
OK, if you do that, cool. 

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Yeah, I don't do that. 
It doesn't. 

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Make you a bad teacher. 
Exactly that. 

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And you know what, it can make 
you a good teacher in a way, in 

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terms of if you're judging 
people on doing like going the 

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extra mile in that respect for 
the kids. 

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I'm not against someone saying, 
wow, that's really cool for the 

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children, aren't you great? 
What I'm saying is it doesn't 

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automatically mean the opposite.
Yeah, exactly. 

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That's what we've literally said
on this on this podcast. 

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Other times building 
relationships with kids is 

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really, really important and 
probably if not the most 

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important thing to do as a 
teacher, right? 

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So obviously doing something 
like that is helping you build a

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positive relationship. 
So we're never going to say 

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that's a bad thing or it does 
nothing. 

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It's just yeah, like you said, 
the opposite is not then true. 

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By default. 
I just couldn't believe it. 

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I was like, anyway, that was my 
week in social media. 

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Tell me about your your week at 
school. 

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Make at school what we did. 
I got one story and it just 

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reminded me again about how kids
are really quite simple, aren't 

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they? 
As in like they're. 

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Then some people think, oh, I 
couldn't possibly work with 

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children. 
That's just so complicated. 

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We did a states of matter lesson
and the stuff we were doing, 

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honestly, I looked at it and I 
thought phase there's a like, 

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it's quite hard for your four 
children. 

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Basically the idea of particles 
like I, I love this. 

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And, and you can, you can get 
across to a, a nine year old 

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what particles you can do that. 
And the lesson was successful. 

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But I just looked at the whole 
thing and I just thought, God, 

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this is like, this is quite 
abstract. 

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By definition. 
I, I physically can't show them 

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particles. 
So you can represent it in 

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different ways, get out the 
blocks and stuff and talk about 

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particles are and there was one 
part where, so I said to them, 

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OK, guys, listen, we know 
particles are really small. 

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You can't see them. 
They were like, is a grain of 

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sand a particle? 
And I thought that's such a good

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question. 
I love those types of questions.

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I was like, you're thinking of 
the exact. 

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Right way in the size limit. 
And I was like, listen, they 

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they act like grains of sand in 
certain situations because they 

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all come together and they take 
the form of different things of 

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liquid, solid, whatever. 
But no, if you can see it, it 

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can't be a particle. 
They're so small and they're 

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like, OK, cool. 
So I said, right, So what are we

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going to do now? 
You guys are going to be the 

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particles in a in a material and
you're going to either be a 

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solid of the liquid or a gas. 
So I got them all stood up in 

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the middle of the room, made a 
little bit of a clearing. 

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I said, right, you're all 
particles right now. 

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I'm going to say state of matter
and you need to act that way. 

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We've just gone through it in 
the board of pictures and stuff 

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and how it would look. 
So I said solid and they all 

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clump together, but they're all 
moving around and joking. 

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I'm like, no, no, no, no, I 
said, I said solid. 

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It's rigid still. 
You're touching, it's rigid. 

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It's still. 
And then one of them just goes, 

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we've got to be like Penguins. 
They all get together. 

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They're dead still. 
They are having the time of like

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the time of their lives. 
This is what I mean when they're

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simple, this little tiny thing 
where we just did this for four 

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minutes and a lesson completely 
transformed now that they'll 

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remember it and they really 
enjoyed it and they loved it. 

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And and that's what I mean when 
you say you don't have to go 

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over the top of lessons, 
sometimes just have to be a bit 

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of interaction. 
How did it go when you said to 

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do gas? 
Well, this is. 

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What we're going to go to now, 
so I said liquid. 

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And. 
The point again, I saying to 

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them, I let them just do what 
they were doing, but they were 

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like running around basically. 
I was like, no, no, look, 

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liquid. 
The particles still touching, 

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they're still together, but they
can move around each other, but 

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they still have to maintain the 
fact they're touching because 

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that's what the particles doing 
in the liquid. 

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They've got a bit more energy. 
You've got a bit more energy 

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now, but not enough to break 
free. 

227
00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,000
So then they're going around 
that corner from gas. 

228
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,280
Whenever I say gas, gases expand
and they leave each other. 

229
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,640
And when I say gas, you need to 
go back to your seat, basically.

230
00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,240
And that was what a gas was just
spreading back out. 

231
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:46,680
Oh. 
That's cool. 

232
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:48,800
That's nice. 
Idea, but I said only when I say

233
00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,240
gas and I was like ready solid 
and then they start running. 

234
00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,680
I'm like, Oh no, God, get back 
and they'll be really still and 

235
00:08:54,680 --> 00:08:56,960
you go backwards solid, liquid, 
solid, liquid and then you 

236
00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:58,640
finally say gas and they go back
to their seat. 

237
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,040
So then they'd like laughing 
their heads off. 

238
00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:02,400
They're loving it. 
They're, they're really, they're

239
00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,040
ready to write stuff down then 
because they've just acted it 

240
00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,240
out. 
And one of the kids, you could 

241
00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:08,440
just tell who's really excited 
about it. 

242
00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:09,840
Oh, can we do it again? 
Can we do it again? 

243
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,960
And I was like, OK, not ready. 
But what I'm going to do if I 

244
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,120
say solid, liquid and gas now 
and have my hand in the air, 

245
00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,320
you've got to get out your seats
and come and do it because we 

246
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:20,680
were doing a lesson on solid, 
liquid and gas. 

247
00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:21,800
I'm going to say this word so 
often. 

248
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:23,680
And I was saying, I was saying, 
I was saying it. 

249
00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:24,960
And then I just forgot that I'd 
said that. 

250
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,000
And it got to the end of the 
day. 

251
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,720
They were getting their stuff 
and I said, your table, get your

252
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:29,760
stuff. 
And this lack of up to me goes, 

253
00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:31,400
when are we going to do that 
again? 

254
00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,320
And I was like, Oh my God, yeah,
of course. 

255
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:34,840
And. 
I was like, listen, at some 

256
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,480
point tomorrow I'm going to do 
it. 

257
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,320
So tomorrow, which was 
Wednesday, it was English 

258
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,960
completely separate. 
And my English class are all 

259
00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:44,480
from my class. 
So we'd all done that lesson 

260
00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,080
yesterday. 
I just I put my hand up in the 

261
00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,760
air and I like sometimes I do it
to get their attention. 

262
00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,240
And I went solid and like four 
of them ran out, including that 

263
00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:54,640
boy And the rest of like, what's
going on though? 

264
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,240
Oh my God, all ran out in the 
middle of English in the middle,

265
00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,640
pretend to be solid. 
This solid, liquid gases ran 

266
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,160
back. 
And this whole time there was 

267
00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,600
one girl just sat in the corner 
like, what is going on? 

268
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,400
She wasn't here yet. 
She wasn't here yesterday. 

269
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,520
No clue. 
Just said solid kids and she 

270
00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,480
went, what's going on? 
That's such a good experiment. 

271
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,880
Like imagine if she just went 
and just got up and joined in, 

272
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,360
having no clue what was going 
on. 

273
00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,240
She had no idea. 
Oh, that's really funny. 

274
00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,600
The idea of that story basically
is your kids want to enjoy 

275
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,880
learning just just little tiny 
things, little tiny tweaks like 

276
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,600
that. 
Honestly, a bunch of them will 

277
00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,040
remember stuff now. 
They might not have done that 

278
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:33,160
one. 
Would you have been worried 

279
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,280
because it's a legitimate thing?
I think I know what you'll 

280
00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,000
think, what you'll think. 
But would you have been worried 

281
00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,600
if the head teacher came in 
during that moment when they 

282
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,720
were most hyped and then maybe 
they maybe were running when 

283
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,720
they were supposed to be liquid 
if they hadn't quite made worked

284
00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,320
out what liquid was yet Like? 
So it looks like chaos, nothing 

285
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:48,600
written down in their books at 
that point. 

286
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,760
Would that have thrown you off? 
Honest, not one bit. 

287
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,440
Like I said a million times at 
the start of my career, maybe, 

288
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,520
right, But there's two 
situations here. 

289
00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,480
Number one, as the teacher, you 
just need to be confident in the

290
00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,160
fact that you know they're 
learning something right now. 

291
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,040
OK, that's the first thing. 
The second thing, if you're in a

292
00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,120
school where that's actually a 
problem, leave the school. 

293
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,360
If you're in a school where the 
head teacher comes round and 

294
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,880
you're doing that and you say, 
oh, maybe they asked for an 

295
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,400
explanation, that might be 
annoying, but you're like, OK, 

296
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:15,560
fair enough. 
Of course, I'll explain it to 

297
00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:17,920
you then. 
It's because of this if then 

298
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:19,480
it's still a problem. 
Leave school. 

299
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:20,960
Yeah, it's not the right the 
Haiti. 

300
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,680
Just says OK I can see what 
you're doing but it did mean 

301
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:25,440
they got less written down in 
their books and now I can't see 

302
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,200
as much evidence. 
Leave the school yeah, get out 

303
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,400
the toxic honestly leave the 
school yeah, genuinely, because 

304
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,240
my point with that is I don't 
know why I can environment. 

305
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,080
Yeah, it crushes your career. 
And it might, you know what we 

306
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,680
see we use toxic a lot. 
Like it probably is toxic. 

307
00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:38,960
Maybe it's not toxic in the way 
we think of like treating people

308
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:40,040
awfully and stuff. 
Maybe. 

309
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:41,600
I wouldn't say, oh, it's not a 
toxic school though. 

310
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,120
And let me have my kids run 
around the classroom. 

311
00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:46,880
But what I would just say is, 
OK, if that's actually what you 

312
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,560
think here and you you have that
much of a problem with it that I

313
00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:51,800
couldn't possibly do this even 
though I've as professional, 

314
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,080
I've said This is why I'm doing 
it. 

315
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,640
Yeah. 
And you still can't see that. 

316
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:55,760
Then then I would leave the 
school. 

317
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,320
Yeah, we're not compatible. 
Exactly that. 

318
00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:58,720
And there is compatibility in 
teaching. 

319
00:11:58,960 --> 00:11:59,560
There is. 
Yeah. 

320
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,640
Like there are going to be some 
schools that literally just fit 

321
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,360
you better. 
And they won't fit me exactly. 

322
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,960
And you know what, it might be 
reasonable, honestly, it might 

323
00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,680
be reasonable for someone to be 
like, oh, just maybe we don't do

324
00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:10,920
that. 
Then maybe there's AI don't 

325
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:12,280
agree with it. 
I don't have to agree with 

326
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:13,480
everything. 
I think people listen to this 

327
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,160
podcast and they think, wow, 
your school must be like 10 out 

328
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,000
of 10 and everything you agree 
with absolutely everything that 

329
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,120
goes on. 
No, I'm an adult and I'm doing a

330
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,920
job and there are some stuff, 
there's some stuff I like that I

331
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,480
do. 
There's some stuff I don't 

332
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,440
really like and agree with, but 
I still do it because it's my 

333
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:27,920
job. 
And there's other stuff which to

334
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,880
me is past the line where I'm 
just like, OK, I'm going to 

335
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:31,160
bring something up or ask about 
it. 

336
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:32,760
And it's the. 
Negotiation of some sort. 

337
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:33,920
Maybe it's not. 
Yeah, it's not. 

338
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:34,760
Yeah, I agree. 
I agree. 

339
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,520
I hate the idea that we paint 
this picture that that we work, 

340
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,600
we happen to have the Unicorn 
perfect environment. 

341
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,760
No, no, no one works in that 
Unicorn perfect environment. 

342
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:42,920
It doesn't mean it's a bad 
environment. 

343
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:43,880
No, no, not at all. 
Exactly. 

344
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,880
Yeah, there's troubles. 
There's you're always working on

345
00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,160
something in that school. 
That's the thing, isn't it? 

346
00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,440
Like it's never just oh, done. 
Everyone, every single person is

347
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:51,960
happy. 
Every single child is happy as 

348
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:53,840
well. 
Woohoo, made it doesn't happen. 

349
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:55,000
It's impossible. 
It's absolutely. 

350
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,160
So you thought in the last week 
of term a good thing to do? 

351
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,280
Good thing to do was get the 
kids up and riled up running 

352
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,000
around in the last week term 
right before Christmas? 

353
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,720
Yeah, absolutely. 
Absolutely. 

354
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,480
Why not? 
I don't know about you, but 

355
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,440
maybe, maybe it's the year. 
I've got your sixes, but I feel 

356
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,640
like at the moment if I give 
them an inch, Oh my God, they 

357
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,440
take 5 miles. 
Genuine, genuinely like 

358
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:17,920
behaviour at the moment. 
I did that again right into us 

359
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,600
because we love it. 
But Christmas term right before 

360
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,120
Christmas, balancing that 
normality with actually having 

361
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:25,880
some Christmas fun as well. 
Like we make Christmas cards and

362
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:27,440
stuff. 
I find it so tricky because I'm 

363
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,120
always on edge because there's 
always someone that just takes 

364
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:30,880
advantage. 
Do you, I mean, do you get that 

365
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,160
in your for sure, yeah. 
All the time and and again as a 

366
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,520
teacher, that's part of our job 
to deal with that. 

367
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,760
You know what I mean? 
Like that and and again there's 

368
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,440
two forks you can go down. 
Yeah, the first four kids I'm a 

369
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,680
bad teacher because these kids 
are becoming unruly. 

370
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:44,560
Don't think that. 
But it's Christmas. 

371
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,360
These kids are going to not have
perfect learning behaviours 

372
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:48,520
right now. 
It's OK. 

373
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,880
And then the second path is have
high expectations still and 

374
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,400
still and still call out 
behaviour that's passed the line

375
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:56,920
for you. 
Because we've always talked 

376
00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,240
about this line and this really 
strict line you have to have as 

377
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,120
a teacher, you have to have this
line you expect. 

378
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,920
It's almost inevitable in 
Christmas that line shifts 

379
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,680
because maybe you've put some 
Christmas music on right whilst 

380
00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:09,080
you're doing an activity which 
they can sing along to some 

381
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,120
Christmas songs. 
That by definition, your line of

382
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,400
behaviour of your learning 
behaviours you want to see has 

383
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:15,800
moved because you. 
Wouldn't normally let them sing.

384
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,040
If they started singing in a 
massage, you'd be like, what are

385
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:19,120
you doing guys? 
Come with your work. 

386
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:20,800
Unless it's Hamilton. 
Of course. 

387
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,200
Well, that's allowed at any 
point in my classroom. 

388
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,680
But that my point is in 
Christmas the teachers and the 

389
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,600
adults and the school were 
actively moving that line 

390
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,440
because we'll say to them, oh, 
no English or maths, they were 

391
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,640
going to the church for service.
Oh, by the way, no afternoon 

392
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,440
lesson because we've got, you 
know, Elf Express coming in and 

393
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,240
we're going to go to see Santa's
Grotto and stuff and there's 

394
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,080
Christmas fairs going on. 
We're moving that line 

395
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:39,920
constantly and we can't move the
line. 

396
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,000
And then the moment the kids for
not understanding where that 

397
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,400
line is, yeah. 
Yeah, No, I agree. 

398
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:44,920
I agree. 
But like equally, like you said,

399
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:46,480
you can't then just get rid of 
that line. 

400
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,840
No, no, let it completely erode.
I tell you a quick funny story. 

401
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,800
It happened to me this week that
I just literally thought of 

402
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,320
right now. 
We were doing classic that kind 

403
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:54,440
of lesson like we changed our 
afternoon. 

404
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,000
It was a bit more fun. 
We did some Christmas cards, we 

405
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,640
did some DT sure. 
And just literally, I was, I was

406
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,160
on hot glue gun station. 
So, you know, when you're like, 

407
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:02,720
I'm thinking I don't want the 
kids to use this because I know 

408
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,320
someone's going to stick their 
hands to their feet. 

409
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,280
Yeah, like what are you doing? 
And someone goes to scratch 

410
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,720
their head like, oh God, Oh no, 
oh God, this is. 

411
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,920
Stevens put all this glue on my 
hand for the for the work, not 

412
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,280
my head. 
Let other people know it's 

413
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,080
actually a glue gun incident 
that caused you to cut your hair

414
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:16,720
off. 
Exactly. 

415
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,520
That's how you look, yeah. 
Exactly how it happened. 

416
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,120
That's what I tell the kids, but
I'm honest, just sad sat there 

417
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:23,760
doing some glueing. 
I looked over. 

418
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,160
This is 5 minutes in 5 minutes 
in, right? 

419
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,880
We're barely even started and 
they're, you know, they're 

420
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,480
having a whale of a time. 
Look over. 

421
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,960
There's just a kid in the corner
who has wrapped his entire hand 

422
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,200
with he's used the whole roll of
sellotape that I gave their 

423
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:36,440
table. 
Every table got a roll of 

424
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,440
sellotape, whole roll wraps his 
whole hand all the way down 

425
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,120
through his forearm and he just 
looked at me. 

426
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,200
You know, when they give you 
that look of they absolutely 

427
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:44,600
know there's nothing they can 
say to get out of this. 

428
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,920
They know they've done 
themselves in right at this 

429
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,200
moment. 
He looked at me with that sort 

430
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,480
of kind of smirk, thinking 
please find this funny but also 

431
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,080
like I know I've done wrong and 
I was just like come on man. 

432
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,560
Did he just do a Samos snap? 
No, he didn't because there's 

433
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,280
too much on it. 
He couldn't get it off. 

434
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,280
It took him 5 minutes. 
Obviously I was like, oh, for 

435
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,440
God's sake. 
So yeah, that's what I mean 

436
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,440
about the the madness of this 
last time. 

437
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,440
Because you know what? 
I think if I did DT maybe at the

438
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,840
beginning of the term and that I
think I don't think that would 

439
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:13,360
have happened. 
But even if it did, do you think

440
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:14,400
you would have reacted 
differently? 

441
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:16,560
Probably. 
I want to ask you very quickly. 

442
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,320
I know, I know we're doing like 
a catch up and stuff. 

443
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,640
I want to talk about maybe that 
right now because I'm, I'm quite

444
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,240
interested. 
I feel like we are, if you think

445
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,040
about a traditional teacher, I 
think we're more laid back on 

446
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,000
the scale. 
OK, in terms of in terms, in 

447
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,920
terms of what? 
So let me, let me explain in 

448
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:37,000
terms of attitudes, OK, in terms
of strictness and behaviour, I'm

449
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,280
not talking about that because I
think we're quite strict still. 

450
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:40,880
Personally. 
I think we are very strict in 

451
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,640
fact, because I don't think 
strictness means mean I'm 

452
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,800
talking about traditional. 
Like I, I will not shout and 

453
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:53,080
demean a child ever really. 
Like unless it's, I feel like, 

454
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,760
gosh, I need to shout because 
either you're not listening at 

455
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,880
all or it's safety or something.
Yeah, it has to be like a real, 

456
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,960
real reason. 
Whereas I think sometimes other 

457
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,160
teachers use that as a 
management tool. 

458
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:05,400
I'm going to strike. 
All the time. 

459
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,800
All the time because I'm a 
teacher, you know, do that. 

460
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,560
Yeah. 
My point is there with like 

461
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,560
someone doing that right 
literally Stan a tape in their 

462
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,680
entire hand. 
Up to their elbow, right? 

463
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,400
Yeah, yeah. 
Is that an instance where you 

464
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,520
should really reprimand and be 
like just say to our dad is 

465
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,560
completely unacceptable, not 
have an an ounce of smile or 

466
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,240
happiness or do you still 
approach that with God stop. 

467
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:30,120
That what do you want to wait? 
The line, yeah, because. 

468
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,120
I feel like I feel like I'm 
somewhere in the middle of that.

469
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:34,800
I did not remotely raise my 
voice at this kid, genuinely. 

470
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,680
I said, I said what are you 
doing? 

471
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:39,920
Oh, immediately regretted. 
What is that? 

472
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:41,840
I said no no, no stop stop. 
You start trying to take it off.

473
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,200
I said no stop, stop, stop. 
I said keep. 

474
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,240
Going leave the room. 
No, I literally said I said 

475
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:47,880
leave the room. 
I said you go down to the head 

476
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,360
teacher and you explain to him 
why you set up your hand to DT. 

477
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:51,560
No, no, no, I won't. 
It's OK. 

478
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,720
I said no, stop, stop. 
I'm not saying take it all off 

479
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:54,640
right now. 
I said there need to be a 

480
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:55,800
consequence. 
Off you go. 

481
00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,000
And he was an illiterate. 
No, no, no, I said it's an easy 

482
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,320
lesson to learn. 
I said you'll come back in 5 

483
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,960
minutes, Go and tell the head 
teacher Mr Stevens has sent me 

484
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,480
out because I've said I take my 
whole hand up in my head. 

485
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,400
I'm sort of laughing at this 
point to be honest with you. 

486
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,080
I'm in my head, I'm thinking 
this is kind of funny and the 

487
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,720
head teacher's probably going to
find this funny as well by side.

488
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,880
But in my head I was like, I 
don't want to just shout at this

489
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,040
guy. 
He's just having honestly, he's 

490
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,760
just having a laugh. 
Is it the worst crime in the 

491
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:21,720
world? 
Not really. 

492
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,240
Do I really do I go home that 
night thinking, God, I'm so 

493
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,200
annoyed about that. 
No, not at all. 

494
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,560
I wasn't really annoyed. 
I just thought it's just 

495
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,000
slightly frustrating that it's. 
A lesson to land still, though, 

496
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,640
because. 
Went to their teacher, came back

497
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,000
5-10 minutes later with a hand, 
a free hand and I was like, 

498
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,760
there you go, you won't do that 
again, you won't do that again. 

499
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,240
Finish, don't, don't worry about
it. 

500
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:41,440
And we cracked. 
It and then none of this class 

501
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,600
have sellotape anymore so they 
can't do the DT. 

502
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,400
That's fine, just just sit 
there. 

503
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:46,600
I. 
Touch the whole class because of

504
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,120
it. 
So before we before we move on 

505
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:50,400
to the main part because I think
we enjoyed it last week Remember

506
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,280
last week when I had a few rile 
up Dylan things to go and you 

507
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:54,560
were getting worried that the 
time was getting on. 

508
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,040
Can I do that last one? 
Yeah yeah yeah. 

509
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,160
Can I tell you something I saw 
online that I thought would 

510
00:18:58,160 --> 00:18:59,720
annoy you? 
Maybe we'll turn it into a 

511
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:01,600
frequent thing. 
Yeah, maybe, maybe. 

512
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,880
If it's not, you know what? 
Most weeks I reckon we need a 

513
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,200
Jingle. 
For it like a specific one, 

514
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:06,000
yeah. 
We do, don't we? 

515
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,760
I'm not going to say we are 
nearly 100 episodes. 

516
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,600
We still not really. 
Thought about doing anything 

517
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,480
like that have we when we 
started this podcast, you 

518
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,040
remember you were like we need 
to have sections like to find 

519
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,280
sections that we do every week 
and it's like no, we don't 

520
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,000
maybe. 
No, we could or we could put no 

521
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,880
F in anyway right? 
So here we go. 

522
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,480
I saw this online, someone said 
the headline called me straight 

523
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:27,920
away. 
Can you request not to move up a

524
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,840
pay point? 
And I thought here we go. 

525
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:31,680
This teaching is the only career
this is going to happen in 

526
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,720
right? 
Currently UPS 2. 

527
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,280
Wondering if I could request and
not move to UPS 3 despite it 

528
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,240
being on the cards at my school.
It feels like UPS free is is 

529
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,680
just use of a stick to be 
experienced teachers. 

530
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,200
Oh, you're UPS free so you've 
got to do these extra things. 

531
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,120
Well you should have done that 
because you're UPS 3 blah blah 

532
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:50,000
blah. 
You've heard all that sort of 

533
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,520
stuff. 
So the question is literally 

534
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,480
then can I request to stay on 
UPS 2 and then not be lumped 

535
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,600
with extra work with UPS 3? 
What's your feelings on that? 

536
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,080
Because there's a million 
different comments, which I 

537
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:01,640
won't. 
Go into yeah, well, straight 

538
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,040
away when I hear anything to do 
with upper pay scale and it 

539
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,640
justifying more work outside of 
the job, I'm under the 

540
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,400
impression that it's been 
repeatedly refuted that UPS 

541
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:17,880
means you have to do more stuff 
actual physical like leading 

542
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,680
math or leading a year or 
leading a key stage. 

543
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,040
I think it's used very 
frequently for that incorrectly.

544
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:28,320
I think a lot of schools will 
say, well, you're UPS so. 

545
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,720
You can lead English. 
XYZ you want to do a textual 

546
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,040
stuff and it's like, well why do
you think TLRS exist? 

547
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,920
Yeah, like a TLR literally 
exists for a teaching and 

548
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,400
learning responsibility, which 
is separate to UPS. 

549
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,880
It might, from what I've seen 
from union advice and guidance 

550
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,440
and stuff, is that the upper pay
scale is literally just a way of

551
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,920
boosting up your experienced 
teachers because they are 

552
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,800
exactly that. 
And they have an impact on the 

553
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,320
wider school, which can be 
through many ways. 

554
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:54,160
Yeah, not simply just leaving a 
subject. 

555
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,640
You can have an impact through 
the wider score, through sharing

556
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,320
your planning. 
Yeah, you can have an impact 

557
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,800
from, you know, mentoring an NQT
or something. 

558
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,280
And even informally as well yeah
those things get missed. 

559
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,440
What the passive informal 
experience running an assembly 

560
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,760
just doing that or even just 
being able to just do something 

561
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,480
on the spot yeah there's a bit 
of an emergency I need I need 

562
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,200
someone to run assembly right 
now. 

563
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,840
It's not been planned. 
OK, That remember staff, you're 

564
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,480
way more experienced. 
You're probably gonna be able to

565
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,040
do that like little passive 
things, even just being in the 

566
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:21,960
year group, right. 
You for people in the year group

567
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,800
as an NQT and as a really 
experienced member. 

568
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,560
And the NQT goes to the 
experienced member just 

569
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,000
occasionally informally, totally
off the books, just saying. 

570
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,040
How did you do that lesson 
there? 

571
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,760
I do it still. 
I talk, you know, I work with 

572
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,400
someone who's 30 years in this 
game and I regularly go to her 

573
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,560
when it's things like DT and 
where I'm not as confident. 

574
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:36,880
I'm like, how did you teach that
one? 

575
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,160
What did you did you give all 
the kids this? 

576
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,280
Did you lay out on tables? 
And she'll just tell me and I'm 

577
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:41,880
like, cool, banging us. 
That's really good advice. 

578
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:43,560
Those kind of, that's what it's 
for, isn't it? 

579
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,640
Yeah, it's not for taking your 
TLR. 

580
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,720
There's got to be a reward for 
being an experienced teacher. 

581
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:49,800
We've talked about this a 
million times. 

582
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,080
This is another example of one 
of the real posted where people 

583
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,880
were very much like, yes, that's
brilliant and other people were 

584
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,320
like you. 
You don't teach for reward. 

585
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:58,960
You you should be doing it for 
the kids. 

586
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,480
Stop. 
If you're a really experienced 

587
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,400
teacher, there is genuinely 
nothing past the top of the main

588
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,840
pay scale unless you go to this 
upper pay scale. 

589
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,760
So the idea of the upper pay 
scale should literally just be 

590
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,280
rewarding that experience. 
It shouldn't be a transaction 

591
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,480
where, OK, I'll bump you up, but
you need to give me 10 hours 

592
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,520
back a week. 
Don't leave the English. 

593
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,320
No, it's a reward for being 
experienced and for and, and are

594
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,000
we going to, are we going to 
solve retention? 

595
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,840
Are we, are we actually going to
solve retention? 

596
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,600
Well, this is a tiny part of 
that which you're wanting to 

597
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:28,520
take away. 
Yeah. 

598
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,200
So this itself won't solve 
retention. 

599
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:31,880
Just giving someone extra 2 
grand in a year. 

600
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,120
It's not going to solve 
retention, but it's going to go 

601
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:36,280
a certain way to just feeling a 
bit more value. 

602
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,040
Yeah, it helps a bit. 
It does help a bit. 

603
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,360
So don't. 
Get rid of it, because just 

604
00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:40,800
because it's not going to solve 
a problem it. 

605
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,560
It will make it worse though, if
we pretend that it's a. 

606
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,280
Part of the solution, it's not 
the whole solution. 

607
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:46,400
Yeah. 
Do you think we should get rid 

608
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:52,120
of UPS 123 and honestly just 
have M1 to M9 just just have a 

609
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:53,920
continuous scale? 
Like why do we even have this 

610
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,440
threshold I? 
Think it would probably be a 

611
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,520
good thing in terms of it would 
get rid of this idea that you 

612
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,840
have to do something extra. 
I'm convinced people teachers 

613
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,000
listening to this, maybe you can
say, Oh my gosh, yes, I 

614
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,600
completely agree. 
I am completely convinced that 

615
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,560
that there is absolutely no 
reason at all why like upper 

616
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,920
management, government, DfE, 
Ofsted, there's there's a reason

617
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,000
why they haven't actually gone 
about trying to change stuff 

618
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,160
like this to help workload and 
well-being and things like that.

619
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,600
There's a reason why they'll put
out a report and say, yeah, we 

620
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,280
do too much, why don't you stop 
photocopying? 

621
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,960
That doesn't actually help 
well-being whatsoever and 

622
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,600
doesn't actually reduce workload
and doesn't actually go as far 

623
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,000
as something we said last week 
about putting in an overtime 

624
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,880
thing for teaching or just 
having set out. 

625
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,600
There's a reason why it's so 
flimsy and great because it 

626
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,360
benefits them. 
It benefits them that schools 

627
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,040
are using UPS for this kind of 
transactional agreement that 

628
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:45,960
you're going to go through UPS, 
you need to give me more work 

629
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,160
because there's no money for 
that work to get done. 

630
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,920
So they pretend that the UPS is 
for that, that there is a 

631
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,400
benefit to exploiting teachers 
and workers in this way. 

632
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,560
And the benefit is more stuff 
gets done and it's at the 

633
00:23:58,560 --> 00:23:59,800
detriment of teachers 
well-being. 

634
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,800
So if you're at the top and 
you're thinking, OK, we can 

635
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,680
really actually change teachers 
well-being and actually reduce 

636
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,760
their workload, but we don't 
have any extra money. 

637
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,520
So that is just going to mean 
that less happens for the 

638
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,800
children and and English isn't 
LED as well, or the discos don't

639
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,280
happen after school or the clubs
aren't run for the children. 

640
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,640
They're making that choice to 
detriment a teacher's well-being

641
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,800
over impacting a child's 
outcome. 

642
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,520
And the point has to be here 
that you could argue all day 

643
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,320
that the children's outcome is 
more important than a teacher's 

644
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:28,560
well-being. 
But that's what's getting us 

645
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,880
into this crisis right now. 
So if you're going to actually 

646
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,320
fix it, you've got to make hard 
decisions that involve money 

647
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,440
being put in the right place. 
And if it doesn't involve money 

648
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,000
being put in the right place, 
because you're saying we 

649
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,400
literally don't have the money, 
what I'm saying is then you 

650
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,040
literally have to lower the 
expectations. 

651
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:44,760
I've talked about this a million
times. 

652
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,680
It's a seesaw, the expectations 
of the teacher and the money we 

653
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,400
put in at the minute, it's way 
too heavily put into what's 

654
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,520
expected of the people and the 
only way to solve it, sure, no 

655
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,760
money. 
OK, well we have to lower the 

656
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,720
expectations then because we 
cannot keep going. 

657
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,200
And this is just one symptom of 
that. 

658
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,280
In my opinion. 
This is 1 symptom of how we are 

659
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,720
just exploiting people to get 
more and more work out of them. 

660
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,760
When you can say no, you can go 
to UPS 3 and do no more than 

661
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,040
you're doing on UPS 2 just 
because you're more experienced 

662
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:14,960
and you're a better teacher 
because. 

663
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,520
Of it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
And it. 

664
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:17,960
And it keeps you in the job, 
honestly, that. 

665
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,000
And that's enough for me after 
everything you said, that was 

666
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,920
amazing. 
And I was already convinced that

667
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,600
it it might help retain me, 
though. 

668
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:24,720
Yeah. 
OK. 

669
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:25,880
Do you want a really good 
teacher in the school? 

670
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:26,960
Hey, go give them a couple more 
ground. 

671
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:27,920
Done. 
UPS 3. 

672
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,120
But I don't know. 
I don't know. 

673
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,480
I think your analogy was really 
good because my gut feeling is 

674
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,760
scrap, scrap their system. 
But I can see why they 

675
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,520
absolutely keep UPS 1-2 and 
three. 

676
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,600
Yeah. 
But even like you look at us 

677
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,120
like it is broken. 
Me and you, we're both with 9 

678
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:42,080
and 10 years in. 
So technically, technically, if 

679
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,480
we had a pay rise every single 
year, we would both be on UPS 3 

680
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:44,920
right now. 
Sure. 

681
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,360
Neither of us on UPS. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 

682
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,520
completely. 
So like, and I'd say I'm quite 

683
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,640
bullshit like I've pushed for 
trying to move up to other 

684
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,680
people probably 10 years in are 
still on M6. 

685
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,560
Yeah, they've never moved into 
the upper threshold because. 

686
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:56,320
They're scared of this. 
They're. 

687
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,920
Scared of this like this sort of
thing or they their school. 

688
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,640
And I know this happened because
I've literally had a 

689
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,080
conversation with someone in the
past who said I've been given 

690
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,520
the option. 
I can't believe this is real. 

691
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,160
Like thinking back right? 
Someone said to me I've been 

692
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,840
given the option I'm on M6. 
I'm currently on M6 and I have a

693
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,480
TLR for leading a subject. 
If I go to UPS. 

694
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,560
My head teacher said you can go 
to UPS but you won't get your 

695
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,600
TLR anymore. 
So you can go to UPS 1. 

696
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,120
You still need the subject as 
part of UPS but you won't get 

697
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:22,320
your TLR. 
So it's the same money you still

698
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,960
and they convinced them as so 
you're still getting your TLR. 

699
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,520
It's just embedded into your 
main pay now. 

700
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,200
So it's no longer an extra thing
we can take away. 

701
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,600
It's now part that's the benefit
mate. 

702
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,640
It's no longer the next separate
thing is part of your actual 

703
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:33,760
main pay now. 
How good is that? 

704
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,560
Hey, so take UPS one. 
And obviously they were just 

705
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,520
like they took the UPS one. 
They took that option. 

706
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:41,600
And then it's like, cool, there 
you go. 

707
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,040
Well done. 
You manipulated your teacher 

708
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,320
into going up. 
Literally just a point. 

709
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,960
They deserve it. 
And you've taken away the extra 

710
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,040
money and that's still doing the
work. 

711
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,400
And that's what they did. 
And at the time, I remember 

712
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,200
being like, Oh my, not the two 
options. 

713
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,560
Like they were both fair. 
Like they were the only things 

714
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,200
that could possibly happen. 
Like, yeah, I agree. 

715
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:56,920
I think you should do that one 
mentor. 

716
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,960
I wish I could go back now and 
be like, no, go to your school 

717
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,600
and be like, oh, that's actually
not what UPS is for. 

718
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,480
By the way, here's the freaking 
paperwork. 

719
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,080
My my favourite one always with 
this is teacher standard 8. 

720
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,400
I love going back to that 
because it's used so much and I 

721
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,320
remember like you being young 
being NQT because it was that's 

722
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,920
what it was called back then ECT
Now and and my mentor literally 

723
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,360
saying to me you should do the 
disco because it will make I 

724
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:22,680
mean I can tick box 8. 
I just remember being like I I 

725
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,000
at the time I was like sure. 
I look back now and I'm like, 

726
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,160
you just need an extra pair of 
hands for the disco. 

727
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,480
Yeah, that. 
Didn't take off. 

728
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:29,440
Nothing. 
Nothing to do. 

729
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,280
With me being a good teacher or 
not. 

730
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,440
That has not contributed to 
where you are now. 

731
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:34,000
Oh. 
Well, you're not. 

732
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,120
Well, you've done you've done 
amazing assessment work and you 

733
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:38,040
teach the kids really well. 
But you didn't go to disco, so 

734
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,600
you can't you can't take off 
TSA. 

735
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,840
Yeah. 
I love the, I love the sort of 

736
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,920
retrospective like way of 
thinking where it's like, if you

737
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,280
didn't do that, would you still 
be where you are now? 

738
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,480
Yeah, absolutely. 
What did it impact any? 

739
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,080
Did it really impact any 
decision? 

740
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,800
It did because I did some 
amazing nice lies and and those 

741
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,240
kids were jealous, man. 
They were jealous. 

742
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,320
That really helped me build a 
relationship with the children. 

743
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,360
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Brilliant. 

744
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:00,520
Anyway, well, the second-half of
this episode is all about maths.

745
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:01,880
I'm really looking forward to 
talking about it. 

746
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,600
Same, we've had our usual, you 
know, funny chit chat. 

747
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,440
Now we're actually going to try 
and get semi serious I suppose. 

748
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,760
And we are maths leads. 
So let's talk about teaching 

749
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,440
really good math. 
You and I are maths leads. 

750
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,080
In our school. 
We were trained as maths 

751
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,560
specialists. 
Maths is our thing. 

752
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,080
I think we're fair to say that, 
you know, sometimes we get an 

753
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,360
expert on the podcast and we're 
like, cool, we're going to let 

754
00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:25,600
you talk about this because we 
just have opinions. 

755
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:26,680
You're the expert. 
Yeah. 

756
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,240
So I've got an. 
I've got an expert in for this. 

757
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,000
It does. 
It's me, not you mate, it's just

758
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,880
me you know. 
Oh sorry, you're the one that 

759
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,320
has a maths specialist on your. 
Degree, aren't you? 

760
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,120
Yeah, but in all seriousness, 
you know, you've clicked on this

761
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,840
podcast because very much we're 
going to talk about teaching 

762
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,240
maths and how to teach maths 
well. 

763
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:43,760
And we're going to go for 
everything we've learned over 

764
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,720
the years, what the purpose of 
teaching maths is, what a maths 

765
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,480
lesson should look like, what we
have to involve the kind of 

766
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,480
actual bits around the 
curriculum, how do I make sure 

767
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,040
there's progression and things 
like that, what good maths 

768
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,320
teaching looks like, and just 
bits in general. 

769
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,120
And we're going to try and get 
rid of some misconceptions. 

770
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:01,680
That's a big part of this. 
We're going. 

771
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,120
To squash some of those, That's 
what I was about to say. 

772
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:03,920
That would be. 
That would be good. 

773
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,400
So maths in general then, 
Hayden, what would you say is 

774
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,680
the purpose in terms of your sat
down? 

775
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,800
You're a school teacher, you 
know, you've got to teach maths 

776
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:11,920
very often. 
It's every single day. 

777
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,240
It's a huge part of the 
curriculum. 

778
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:14,960
Why is that? 
What is the purpose? 

779
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,720
And the kid says to you, why do 
we learn this? 

780
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:17,920
That's happened, that's 
happened. 

781
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,080
And sometimes people know. 
The answer is the purpose of 

782
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,120
teaching maths to me is what I 
would say to the children is 

783
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,160
it's real world, it's real world
skills, it's problem solving, 

784
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,680
it's developing your brain. 
You're understanding how to 

785
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:28,720
solve problems in the real 
world. 

786
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,720
That's normally like the 
textbook response, like if the 

787
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,680
children, would you add anything
to that if you were talking to 

788
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,320
an adult, perhaps that says why 
do we? 

789
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,600
What is the real purpose? 
Yeah, I'd say from an adult's 

790
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,600
point of view, a big part of 
your job when you're teaching 

791
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,800
maths is to try and reduce the 
anxiety around the subject as 

792
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,960
much as possible. 
You look at adults and I think 

793
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,120
it's very normal for adults to 
say, oh, I don't do maths, I 

794
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,480
don't do numbers. 
And no one bats an eyelid. 

795
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,200
You know, if someone turned 
around and said oh, I don't do 

796
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,160
reading, you would. 
It doesn't happen. 

797
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,280
There's much more of a of course
everyone reads and if you don't 

798
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:01,400
then you feel really insecure 
about. 

799
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,000
And we're not talking about just
like choosing to read. 

800
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,280
No, no, no. 
Yeah, I know. 

801
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:05,360
I don't do reading. 
I can't read. 

802
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:06,560
I can't read at all. 
I don't do exactly. 

803
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,040
That like if you are illiterate,
that's something where there's 

804
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,280
like things in place, like no, 
everyone should aim to be 

805
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:12,840
completely literate because it's
really important. 

806
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,560
With maths, there's definitely a
much lower threshold and I think

807
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,440
that induces a bit of anxiety as
a child, which leads to that 

808
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,200
indifference when you're older. 
So if you're anxious about maths

809
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,560
when you're younger and you feel
like you're failing when you're 

810
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,720
older, you you will deal with 
that by suppressing and saying, 

811
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,040
well, that doesn't matter. 
It doesn't matter. 

812
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,120
Well, when really in real life, 
do you know what it's so helpful

813
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,520
to have solid foundation on math
skills and in primary schools 

814
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,040
specifically is where we have to
really nail those foundations as

815
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,760
much as possible. 
So I agree with everything you 

816
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:40,880
said. 
It's all about the real word. 

817
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,920
It's about the idea of solving 
problems. 

818
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,000
We'll come on to that. 
But it is about just being able 

819
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,920
to do maths, you know, work out 
your change. 

820
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,160
How much money do you have to go
shopping, what time is the bus, 

821
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,200
you know, things like that. 
So do you think the curriculum, 

822
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,680
the national curriculum is, is 
set out to do this? 

823
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,400
Do you think it has the right 
aims? 

824
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,720
I think, I think the aims of the
national curriculum are really 

825
00:30:58,720 --> 00:30:59,320
good. 
Yeah. 

826
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,480
I think if you just take that as
a piece of paper on its own and 

827
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,800
you read it, I don't think 
anyone would disagree with that.

828
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,280
I think we can talk through the 
aims. 

829
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,120
Yeah. 
What are the aims? 

830
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,200
So literally written in the 
national curriculum? 

831
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,120
This is where the three parts of
maths come from. 

832
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,640
If you're a primary school 
teacher, you've done any maths 

833
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,360
CPD you're you're thinking of 
OK, There's three parts of 

834
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,480
maths, fluency, reasoning, 
problem solving and this it 

835
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,080
comes directly from the aims of 
the curriculum. 

836
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,720
So the aim of the curriculum, 
we'll start with fluency. 

837
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,640
So the idea of fluency is 
practising things over and over 

838
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,600
again, basically becoming good 
at maths, being able to do maths

839
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,720
and not only be able to do maths
but to do that maths in 

840
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,680
different circumstances and 
situations. 

841
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,320
And, and we call that as a 
teacher very fluency. 

842
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,680
So the aim is children are able 
to do maths. 

843
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:41,920
That's basically the first name 
in. 

844
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,440
English, right? 
When you say you're fluent in 

845
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,520
English, I wouldn't say a kid is
fluent in English because they 

846
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,040
can write one single sentence 
structure over and over again, 

847
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,800
right? 
It's about, OK, you can write 

848
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,080
these words and you're fluent at
the language and you can write 

849
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,000
them in loads of different ways.
And I think that's kind of what 

850
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,280
you're getting out with this 
idea of varied fluency, right? 

851
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,520
That's a really good analogy. 
And I think when you think about

852
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,600
if someone's fluent in English, 
do they know every single word 

853
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,720
in the dictionary? 
No, no, of course not. 

854
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,320
I'm fluent in English and I 
definitely don't know every 

855
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:06,760
single word. 
I definitely something couldn't 

856
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,080
write like Shakespeare, do you 
know what I mean? 

857
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,760
But fluency is something that 
all children can achieve. 

858
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,200
Yeah. 
In the same way fluency in 

859
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,120
reading is something all 
children. 

860
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,800
It doesn't mean you absolutely 
know everything to do maths 

861
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:15,760
ever. 
You're completely fluent in 

862
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:16,720
whatever. 
Yeah. 

863
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,920
It means you've reached a 
threshold where, yeah, you can 

864
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,520
add numbers together. 
Yeah, of course you can work out

865
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,480
how much time is left until the 
hour and things like that. 

866
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,760
Fluency is an aim. 
And this is a name for all 

867
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,160
children. 
If it's something that sometimes

868
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,560
gets missed, the idea is all 
children should be hitting these

869
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,040
aims. 
OK, and fluency. 

870
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,120
I think that analogy of reading 
so. 

871
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:33,800
Could just squash a little 
misconception then, because I 

872
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,440
think it's very normal to think 
that fluency equals arithmetic 

873
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:38,760
only, right? 
Is that right? 

874
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,240
Is that wrong? 
Is there some truth in that? 

875
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,760
I think a big part of fluency is
what we do would call 

876
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,920
arithmetic. 
Yeah, a big part of fluency is 

877
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,720
can you add 2 numbers together? 
Can can you exchange? 

878
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,160
Do you understand the process of
doing that? 

879
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,800
Can you get answers right 
repeatedly. 

880
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,960
But it's more than arithmetic 
because it kind of bleeds in 

881
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,600
these aims as we talk through 
the rest of them. 

882
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:57,800
They believe leading with each 
other. 

883
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,840
Because when we're talking about
fluency, it might be that the 

884
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,280
children can practise adding 
some numbers together, but then 

885
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,960
it might move very quickly to, 
OK, well what about if the 

886
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,960
missing, the missing number was 
at the start and then we have an

887
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,080
equal sign and then the 
addition. 

888
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,360
That's part of fluency because 
it's about understanding that 

889
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,160
still doing the maths, it's just
in a slightly different context.

890
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:17,760
Sure, maybe there's a part hole 
model. 

891
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,920
So for this time I'm missing the
hole and then the two parts are 

892
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,680
here, I'm going to have to put 
them together and I'm still 

893
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,000
going to be doing the same 
maths. 

894
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,320
I'm still going to be fluent in 
it. 

895
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,400
I'm still reading the sentence 
in a different structure. 

896
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,760
You're still teaching it to them
on the, you know, on the screen 

897
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,000
or on your board and they're 
then practising that exact skill

898
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,400
that you've done. 
That's fluency. 

899
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,320
That's fluency is the building 
blocks of maths. 

900
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,480
Yeah. 
You can't do the other aims of 

901
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,640
the curriculum until you're 
fluent in something. 

902
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,600
Yeah, you literally can't do it.
So that's the first aim. 

903
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,080
Children become fluent in their 
curriculum. 

904
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,320
Yeah. 
Second aim, reasoning. 

905
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,520
So reasoning is like the next 
step up. 

906
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,600
So when we talk about reasoning,
what we mean is we're talking 

907
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,240
about being able to explain, 
being able to dive a little bit 

908
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,520
deeper into thinking logically 
about something. 

909
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,640
You can make connections, you 
can justify an answer, you can 

910
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,400
extrapolate out and prove 
something. 

911
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,680
So it's not just doing the math 
anymore, it's looking at 

912
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,880
something and potentially saying
how that went wrong, I think. 

913
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,120
It's the most important part of 
the Quicken, by the way, because

914
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,199
I remember, you know, years ago 
when I, when we were at 

915
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:14,920
university, I then went on to do
my masters. 

916
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,239
I'm just saying. 
And one of the big things that 

917
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:18,800
was really interesting was 
looking at anxiety. 

918
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,600
You know, you talk about anxiety
of it was looking at that 

919
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,040
generation above us who has 
tonnes of math anxiety in it 

920
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,199
and, and one of the findings was
that they just, they just, it 

921
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:31,159
was very arithmetic based and 
rote based and not much about 

922
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:32,480
the reasoning. 
It was kind of like, here's a 

923
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,719
trick that helps you to answer 
this question. 

924
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,719
The trick is completely 
abstract. 

925
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,320
You have no conceptual 
understanding of what's going on

926
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:40,679
here. 
But if you do this trick, you 

927
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:43,560
times those two together, you 
draw a :) under that one and 

928
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,639
then you dot these two numbers 
and then you put the two dots 

929
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:47,800
together like some weird trick, 
right? 

930
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,480
If you draw a butterfly around 
the numbers then it works like 

931
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,120
there's no no concept to 
understand. 

932
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,239
They have no reasoning skills. 
So to me, like reasoning is like

933
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,560
the forefront of everything when
I'm thinking about kids and 

934
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,360
doing maths. 
Conceptual understanding hits 

935
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,160
the nail on the head. 
It's going that one step 

936
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,080
further. 
As a teacher, it's not just 

937
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,640
spending the lesson adding two 
numbers. 

938
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,040
I'm going to go to adding 'cause
it's so simple. 

939
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,440
It's not just a lesson adding 
two numbers together in 

940
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:09,960
different ways. 
That's still fluency. 

941
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,960
They're going to do it different
ways, like it's presented 

942
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,240
differently. 
It's in a parthole model. 

943
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,120
It's in a bar model. 
Even in a word, problem can 

944
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,600
still be fluency. 
It really can because you're 

945
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,680
teaching it and you're just 
getting better at actually doing

946
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,000
the math. 
We'll come into problem solving 

947
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,960
in a minute because I think 
that's a misconception we're 

948
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,520
going to talk about. 
But yeah, conceptual 

949
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,920
understanding that is reasoning.
It's stopping and it's saying 

950
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,760
what is this one worse? 
When we exchange over the one, 

951
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,320
what we actually doing here, 
It's not one, is it? 

952
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,200
Why it's 110? 
Well, why do we have 110? 

953
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,000
Well, because we added the ones 
up and it bridged past 10. 

954
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,800
So in 14 that four stays in the 
ones column. 

955
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,480
And I've actually swapped those 
10 ones for A10. 

956
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,200
And it's the kind of thing that 
parents look at now and we 

957
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,800
explain like why they're doing 
this modern maths, this rubbish 

958
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,760
maths. 
I don't want to explain why am I

959
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,320
going to sit and write a 
sentence in maths? 

960
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,400
I'm just going to do some 
adding. 

961
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,000
No, no, the point is if you 
really have a solid grasp of 

962
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,240
that exchanging when it comes to
then doing short multiplication 

963
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,560
or even short division and 
you're exchanging over 7, 

964
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,240
sometimes literally the idea is,
OK, I know that's 72 and I know 

965
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:14,520
that's seven 10s. 
And that's going to help me 

966
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,120
conceptually understand that 
idea of exchanging where when it

967
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,160
comes to doing short division 
and short multiplication, 

968
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,200
etcetera. 
I as a teacher, don't need to 

969
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,280
teach them this new trick 
because it's not just carrying 

970
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,800
the one. 
If I, if I taught my kids just 

971
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,040
put the one over, they, they 
have no idea. 

972
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,440
It comes from the fact it's 14. 
They could. 

973
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,840
Probably get the answer right in
those exact questions, yeah. 

974
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,080
Exactly. 
But they, but the, the IT just 

975
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,920
enriches their understanding 
and, you know, it makes 

976
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,080
connections like we're talking 
about with fluency and it just 

977
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,320
embeds that lab. 
People always do that diagram. 

978
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,720
Then it's, it's cliche, it's 
kind of cringy, the whole 

979
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:45,560
foundation thing, like a pyramid
sort of thing. 

980
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,040
But it really is that genuinely,
if you have a really bitty 

981
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,080
foundation where you've not 
taught much of it, but you've 

982
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,080
taught your kids tricks, it will
fall down eventually. 

983
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,840
And you will find later on, like
you said, when you're teaching 

984
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,960
other objectives, when they're 
not able to make those links, it

985
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,760
will be just as painful. 
Yeah, and I think you're 

986
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,560
absolutely right. 
And and explaining it's a big 

987
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,360
part. 
Language is a huge part of 

988
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,720
reasoning. 
Explaining what's going on is 

989
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,040
actually impossible for a child 
unless they've been taught the 

990
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,560
vocabulary to do it. 
So don't expect reasoning to be 

991
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,680
a quick fix. 
No, you can dip back into 

992
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,440
reasoning and and if you're in 
year 4, for example, you can dip

993
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,080
back to a year three or a year 2
objective to get them really 

994
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,800
explaining something they 
properly understand. 

995
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,040
You've got to be able to do 
something first. 

996
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,360
You've got to be able to 
exchange before you can explain 

997
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,640
what exchanging is. 
So you really need to, like you 

998
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,440
said, build up those blocks and 
things like sentence stems can 

999
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,120
help children. 
Vocabulary word banks can really

1000
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:31,560
help them. 
It's not something you're just 

1001
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,520
suddenly going to listen to this
and go, OK, yeah, I need to do 

1002
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,400
more reasoning. 
Can you explain that? 

1003
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:36,800
Give them some questions. 
Yeah, they can't. 

1004
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,480
No, we had we had Gareth Metcalf
on this on this podcast, 

1005
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,360
honestly, like a year ago, 
really, really good episode. 

1006
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,720
But he is someone I would if you
want somewhere to start like a 

1007
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:45,920
quick easy win. 
He has resources called IC 

1008
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,320
reasoning as some other stuff as
well. 

1009
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,000
And his resources are so good 
genuinely for that. 

1010
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,480
I remember using them earlier in
my career as a teacher because 

1011
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,440
he he poses questions in a way 
where it's like, oh, hit some of

1012
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,680
my favourite reasoning examples 
right are where you give kids a 

1013
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,280
fact you you give them OK, 
right, 18 * 5. 

1014
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,720
OK, you say it's 90 and then you
say, and it's not about them 

1015
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:06,800
solving it. 
You just say, OK, explain how I 

1016
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,080
can do 19 * 5 without doing any 
formal multiplication. 

1017
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,240
Stuff like that to me is 
reasoning because it's like, OK,

1018
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:15,600
do the kids really truly 
understand the concept of it's 

1019
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,080
18 lots of five or it's 5 lots 
of 18? 

1020
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,800
And how they could use the idea 
of lots of, if you're adding one

1021
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,160
more lot of it's, it's repeated 
addition and it's linked to 

1022
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,160
that. 
And it's like, OK, if you taught

1023
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,360
addition really well back in the
time, back in the day when they 

1024
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,800
did that and they understand the
repeated addition, well done. 

1025
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,120
You've now got an easier ride 
here. 

1026
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,240
And it goes back to that analogy
of you're building a good 

1027
00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:34,680
foundation. 
So the reasoning is just 

1028
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,800
constantly getting the kids to 
justify their understanding and 

1029
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,360
giving them new ways of looking 
at things. 

1030
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,000
So they really make a strong 
connection with the mouse that 

1031
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,720
they're learning to other parts 
of maths and also just a deep 

1032
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:47,440
conceptual understanding of that
mouse, not just a surface level.

1033
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,480
They can pass the test though. 
Do you know what don't care? 

1034
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,000
If you really care about the 
kids understanding mouse and 

1035
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,800
like the whole going back to the
purpose being not being anxious 

1036
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,720
when they're older and solving 
real life problems, then you 

1037
00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:59,400
have to care about that 
conceptual understanding just as

1038
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,080
much as can they pass the test. 
That's it's such an amazing 

1039
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,520
analogy because I'm thinking 
right now of that has real life 

1040
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,880
connotations where where, for 
example, let's say you're 

1041
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,840
building something or measuring 
something in a room. 

1042
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:11,640
The idea of going back to 
scratch and showing you're 

1043
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,280
fluent in something isn't useful
anymore. 

1044
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,360
You've already done a bunch of 
the maths. 

1045
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,680
Do you understand maths enough 
where you can just go, oh, jad 

1046
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,840
five that, that that link that 
is, that is completely different

1047
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,480
to fluency. 
And if your child is only doing 

1048
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,320
fluency in their class, in their
lessons for maths, they're never

1049
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,400
ever going to make that link. 
And that's such a strong 

1050
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,520
indication to me. 
That's the perfect example of 

1051
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,800
reasoning, which because again, 
I think reasoning, sometimes 

1052
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,240
people just think, explain how 
you did that and that's that's 

1053
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:38,080
it. 
That's a type of reasoning. 

1054
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,200
But that's the only reasoning 
our children are getting that is

1055
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,120
weak. 
Like if your reasoning is 

1056
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,120
literally just loads of loads of
fluency in the lesson and at the

1057
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,200
end saying, how did you do this?
Oh, I added up the ones and then

1058
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:50,920
I had a 10 and I exchanged it. 
That's cool. 

1059
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,320
There's a place for that. 
But your type of reason you just

1060
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,640
said there is making links and 
connections and thinking things 

1061
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,920
through and justifying and 
proving like a big part of 

1062
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,160
reasoning isn't just explaining 
what you're doing, it's proving 

1063
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:02,960
why it worked. 
It's proving why someone's 

1064
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,800
wrong. 
And again, I do think we're 

1065
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,160
going to talk about assessment 
later, but when you look at the 

1066
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,720
Sats and the classic thought 
bubble questions they're doing 

1067
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:12,000
in your 6, quite often they are 
a bit like that. 

1068
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,520
You'll you'll have a question 
which is like so big they 

1069
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,400
couldn't possibly do it in their
head like 398 * * 17 and they'll

1070
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,120
say explain how you could work 
out 18 * 398. 

1071
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,200
Just flips it a bit and and that
is that is pure reasoning and 

1072
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,880
children fail on that when they 
haven't remotely been exposed to

1073
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,360
what you talking about like 
unless they have a really solid 

1074
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:31,800
understanding like you said, 
Yeah. 

1075
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,000
And I think for me, reasoning is
sprinkled throughout every 

1076
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,360
lesson. 
Yeah, I like, I really do think 

1077
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,720
that reasoning is something that
you you might not see on a 

1078
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:43,760
Tuesday if you walk in at 10:30 
AM because it's not timetabled 

1079
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:44,640
in. 
We're not timetabled in 

1080
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:45,760
reasoning. 
And we'll talk about problem 

1081
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,360
solving, but it's reasoning is 
something where it just goes 

1082
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:49,640
hand in hand with fluency for 
me. 

1083
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,280
Yeah, that idea of just you, you
couldn't you, you can only 

1084
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,760
become fluent in something as 
you're becoming able to explain 

1085
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,240
something. 
And it is, that was reasoning I 

1086
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:02,800
think comes after fluency. 
I do think during it you're kind

1087
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,080
of moulding it together into a 
ball. 

1088
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:05,600
It's funny, isn't it? 
Because, because more often 

1089
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,320
we'll talk about problem solving
now more oftenly it gets banded.

1090
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,520
Fluency is very separate and it 
gets banded reasoning and 

1091
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,120
problem solving. 
And I think I certainly at the 

1092
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,320
start of my career, for years, 
I'd say genuinely, if you ask me

1093
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,120
what's the difference between 
reasoning and problem solving, I

1094
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,200
wouldn't have now to tell you. 
I really did just think they 

1095
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:20,800
were the same thing and they 
were just kind of like a term 

1096
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:21,960
that's been put together of 
them. 

1097
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:23,200
So what? 
What is? 

1098
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:24,320
Let's talk about problem 
solving. 

1099
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,800
Then what is problem solving? 
And you know, I'm sure you'll 

1100
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,520
make it obvious when you're 
talking, but why is it different

1101
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,840
to this idea of reasoning, 
conceptual understanding? 

1102
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,040
Well, I think, OK, let's, let's 
just really go over what we just

1103
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:35,800
said because I think it's 
important to understand problem 

1104
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,440
solving, that fluency and 
reasoning to me are two sides of

1105
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,720
the same coin. 
I, I really do think in my head,

1106
00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:43,200
as I've become more adept at 
teaching maths, reasoning has 

1107
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,160
moved much closer to problem 
solving in my head. 

1108
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:46,960
And it's just something you're 
constantly doing. 

1109
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:50,200
I, I do think that you could at 
most lessons walk into a room 

1110
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,960
and at some point, at least if 
it's just partner talk, even if 

1111
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:54,720
you're introducing something for
the first time and really 

1112
00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:56,680
looking at the very fluency 
idea, there's going to be 

1113
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,840
reasoning built in if it's being
taught really well. 

1114
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,520
In my opinion, I think the way I
can justify how problem solving 

1115
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,480
is different. 
I think you could come into my 

1116
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,680
classroom one or two or three 
days in a row and not 

1117
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:07,960
necessarily see any problem 
solving. 

1118
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,440
I think problem solving is the 
end goal. 

1119
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,040
I think, I think problem solving
is incredibly important. 

1120
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,600
I think it's where everyone 
should aim to be, where your 

1121
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,240
children are becoming problem 
solvers. 

1122
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,120
And I don't think it matters how
good the children are at maths, 

1123
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,960
their aim has to be to be 
problem solvers at whatever 

1124
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,320
level they're working at. 
OK, so problem solving to me, 

1125
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,480
and I think this is a widely 
accepted definition of problem 

1126
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,720
solving, is being able to apply 
skills you've built up 

1127
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:36,560
mathematically to unfamiliar 
problems. 

1128
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:37,760
That's the keyword, isn't it? 
That's the. 

1129
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,960
Keyword. 
It's only problem solving if the

1130
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,440
children are not familiar with 
what they've got in front. 

1131
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,280
Give me a classic example of 
what's not problem solving. 

1132
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,040
Then what's the most common 
thing where people say this is 

1133
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,160
problem solving and it is I'm. 
Going to put two things in one 

1134
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:50,680
here, OK? 
And I really don't want to dig 

1135
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,880
out people who do this because I
did this for many years of my 

1136
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,960
career. 
I can completely understand why 

1137
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,520
people do it and I think there's
room for it again. 

1138
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,720
But I don't think it's very good
practise and neither do Ofsted. 

1139
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,680
And I think when we're thinking 
about applying the curriculum, 

1140
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,280
it's something we should try and
avoid now as we become more 

1141
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,640
proficient at understanding 
what's going on. 

1142
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,640
I don't like seeing word problem
Fridays. 

1143
00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:13,160
This, this was a big thing, 
problem solving Friday, word 

1144
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,400
problem Friday. 
And and that whole idea was, it 

1145
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,520
was to try and shoehorn in some 
problem solving. 

1146
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,560
So he took the make sure it's 
happening fine. 

1147
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,400
Brilliant. 
Bad practise in my opinion. 

1148
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,240
So what you might often see 
people say is problem solving 

1149
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:28,080
is, well, it's in a word 
problem, it's problem solving. 

1150
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,600
It's not true. 
OK, The biggest thing I I did 

1151
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,280
this at the start of my career 
so I'm going to talk about 

1152
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:34,640
myself here. 
So I'm digging myself out. 

1153
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,000
Before anyone gets annoyed at me
if you did this as well, maybe 

1154
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,200
we should just think about it 
together. 

1155
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,760
I used to do my maths lesson. 
I'd do some fluency, what I 

1156
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,840
thought was fluency, like maybe 
do some practise 3 different 

1157
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,920
ways of showing it called. 
Then I'd do a question after 

1158
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,400
which says explain how this 
person did this wrong and to me 

1159
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,240
that was my reasoning. 
Take that off and then my 

1160
00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:55,480
challenge always would just put 
it as my challenge. 

1161
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,280
Every day. 
I'm going to think of a problem 

1162
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,480
solving 1 here because the kids 
who finish can get into the 

1163
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,880
problem solving and the problem 
solving question is just a 2 

1164
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,280
step word problem where they 
just do what they did at the 

1165
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,640
start of the lesson in the 
context of a word problem. 

1166
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,440
Oh, and by the way, one of my 
slides and my input was this 

1167
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:11,880
word problem with different 
numbers. 

1168
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,600
So many reasons why it's not 
problem solving. 

1169
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:17,120
If you've literally shown the 
children the structure of a word

1170
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,080
problem and how to solve it and 
just change the number, by 

1171
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,760
definition, it's not unfamiliar 
anymore. 

1172
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:23,920
It's just them regurgitating 
what? 

1173
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:25,160
There's no problem solving 
involved. 

1174
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:26,040
Yeah, sure. 
OK. 

1175
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,200
And the second thing is every 
child should be doing problem 

1176
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,080
solving. 
So if your problem solving is in

1177
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,560
your challenge or what you say 
is your problem solving, by 

1178
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,760
definition, not everyone's going
to get to the challenge as it 

1179
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,960
wouldn't be that it's extra work
for children to do well and 

1180
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,840
you're depriving your children 
who are struggling a bit more 

1181
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,080
the chance to problems. 
OK, I'm. 

1182
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,160
Going to hit you back then with 
a common response to that, but 

1183
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,280
my kids that are struggling 
aren't fluent enough to do the 

1184
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:48,400
problem solving in that lesson 
yet. 

1185
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,400
Yeah. 
So again, what we say to our 

1186
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,000
staff and I think it's really 
important to make this clear to 

1187
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,480
your staff and I don't think 
you're a bad maths teacher if 

1188
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,200
you think that. 
I think that's a very. 

1189
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,200
I think it's a logical thing. 
Because you know what you cannot

1190
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,920
problem solve until you can do 
the maths. 

1191
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,800
I completely agree with you. 
So I'd say to this person, 

1192
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,480
you're absolutely right, what we
need to do is building time for 

1193
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,360
these children to be doing some 
problem solving on age 

1194
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,280
appropriate level of maths for 
them. 

1195
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,120
So let's say they're in year 4 
and they're working at a year 2 

1196
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,360
level and you say they can't, 
they can't, they don't access 

1197
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,200
this year 4 curriculum. 
How can they possibly problem 

1198
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:22,680
solve? 
They're still becoming fluent. 

1199
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,280
I'd say you're right, it'll be a
waste of time to give them 

1200
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:25,720
problem. 
Solve. 

1201
00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:27,080
Give them year 4 problem solving
questions. 

1202
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,360
So go to year 2, you know, can 
can your child add 7 past 10? 

1203
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,520
Can they, can they do like 8 + 
7? 

1204
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:34,720
OK. 
And you'll be like, yeah, sure. 

1205
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:37,480
They, they can use a number line
and they can use A10 square 

1206
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,240
there and they can go past and 
they can do that. 

1207
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,880
OK, cool. 
Here's a Bank of year two 

1208
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:43,720
problem solving questions for 
additional retraction. 

1209
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,080
There'll be something in there 
where they can do the maths and 

1210
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:47,680
then all their focus is on 
problem solving. 

1211
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:50,480
So I would say to them, look, 
everyone needs to problem solve.

1212
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,040
It just needs to be problem 
solving something they're fluent

1213
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:54,600
in. 
If they're not quite fluent in 

1214
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:55,800
it yet, don't do problem 
solving. 

1215
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,400
And that's what I mean when I 
say even your children who are 

1216
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,960
in your year group on the Year 4
curriculum, in this case, in 

1217
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,320
Year 4 class, they still might 
not be ready to problem solve 

1218
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,640
after one lesson. 
It's OK to not see it. 

1219
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:08,480
You might see problem solving on
a Tuesday. 

1220
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:09,640
Yeah. 
And then you might see it again 

1221
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:10,480
on a Thursday. 
Yeah. 

1222
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:11,760
You might not see it till the 
Friday after. 

1223
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,480
Yeah, It has to be appropriate. 
When we had Ofsted in one of the

1224
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,360
one of the big things, we were 
doing a lot of research at the 

1225
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:17,360
time. 
I think it was from like Third 

1226
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:18,720
space learning or something like
that put together. 

1227
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:20,120
Reference in a second. 
Oh, brilliant. 

1228
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,720
Well, the the the the condensed 
version of the Ofsted. 

1229
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,800
OK, so. 
No, no, no, no. 

1230
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,240
I'm going to reference something
else first. 

1231
00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:27,800
Space learning is fantastic. 
It's a different thing, but 

1232
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,840
they've got so much stuff. 
Well, they'd they'd read all the

1233
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:30,840
obstet. 
There was tonnes of obstet 

1234
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,600
guidance about how they want to 
see mouse write their deep dives

1235
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,480
and all this stuff, and they put
it into a nice document to read.

1236
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,440
I remember one of the big things
was like the do's and don'ts 

1237
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,880
list. 
It was Ofsted will. 

1238
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,080
It will be like a red flag to 
them if they see that you've 

1239
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,560
planned Robin problem solving 
into every single lesson and in 

1240
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,840
like on the surface that sounds 
like what what they're talking 

1241
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,200
about. 
And it's the reason it's a red 

1242
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,800
flag is because it honestly, 
it's so like based on everything

1243
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,360
Dylan just said, by definition, 
then it's very, very, very hard 

1244
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,120
to get to have your kids 
constantly fluent in every 

1245
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,320
single thing you're teaching 
ever in every lesson that they 

1246
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:02,960
can do problem solving 
immediately in that lesson. 

1247
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,040
It's not going to happen. 
It realistically won't happen. 

1248
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,720
It might take a few days of 
building up that fluency and 

1249
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:11,440
reasoning together before you 
can say, right, I think you've, 

1250
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,680
I think it's there. 
I think you are fluent enough 

1251
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,320
that I can give you an 
unfamiliar problem. 

1252
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,120
And you're going to be able to 
pull those though that all that 

1253
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,440
new learning to the forefront of
your brain and combine it all 

1254
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,440
together to solve this problem. 
I couldn't have done that 

1255
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,280
yesterday because honestly, you 
just weren't there yet. 

1256
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,320
You just were not fluent enough.
It would have been confusing. 

1257
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,200
You would have then developed 
anxiety around this. 

1258
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,080
It would have been a fail. 
So yeah, it was interesting that

1259
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,120
Ofsted actively went out of the 
way to be like, this is not a 

1260
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:34,720
good thing. 
Like schools need to stop saying

1261
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:36,760
to their teachers. 
We need to see problem solving 

1262
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:37,960
every single day. 
And then everyone does the 

1263
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:38,920
challenge question that you 
said. 

1264
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:41,400
It's just a misconception. 
So we talked about how it's not 

1265
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,200
just necessarily word problems 
we talked about we don't 

1266
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:44,200
necessarily need to see every 
day. 

1267
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,680
And I think I'm going to pick up
what you said there about how 

1268
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,320
you need to be fluent before you
can do problem solving. 

1269
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,000
And the idea is that if you're 
fluent in the mass, you've got 

1270
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,080
one less thing to cognitively 
load in your mind through. 

1271
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,680
So when it comes to problem 
solving, you can spend a lot of 

1272
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,640
the time on actually problem 
solving. 

1273
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,120
OK. 
And, and trying to diagnose what

1274
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:02,400
to do with this problem. 
Yeah. 

1275
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,040
And again, I'm going to 
reference Third Space Learning. 

1276
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,200
They put together this PDF and 
it like, for years now, I've had

1277
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:09,680
it printed off. 
And I just keep it in my mind 

1278
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:10,800
constantly. 
I'm thinking about this. 

1279
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,040
And it's the nine ways of 
tackling a problem. 

1280
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:13,760
Oh. 
Yeah, cool. 

1281
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,080
And it's and we'll go for it 
now, because lots of people were

1282
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,440
listening to this like I was a 
few years ago when I had my mind

1283
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,160
opened to what problem solving 
actually was. 

1284
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,160
And I remember just thinking to 
myself, OK, well, OK, well if 

1285
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,680
it's not word problem and stuff,
well what is problem? 

1286
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:26,080
What? 
Is it? 

1287
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:27,800
Tell me what it is so. 
Problem solving. 

1288
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,800
We should be thinking about it 
as in focusing on the skills 

1289
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:32,960
required to solve a problem. 
Sure not. 

1290
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,440
Here's a problem, here's how it 
works. 

1291
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,520
Apply it with different numbers.
Not problem solving. 

1292
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,200
Problem solving, it's so vague, 
it's hard, but if you focus on 

1293
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,640
the skills involved, you can 
make sure your children have 

1294
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,560
like a wide diet of problem 
solving. 

1295
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,200
And I'm going to go through it 
all nine right here and 

1296
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:49,440
technique. 
And I'm going to give an example

1297
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,400
of what it might look like. 
OK, so I'm going to talk about 

1298
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,720
first technique. 
One, open-ended problems. 

1299
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,920
This can be a problem in itself,
just literally an open-ended 

1300
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:58,840
problem. 
For example, an example of this 

1301
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,760
would be you might be doing 
you've just done some error in 

1302
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,640
perimeter. 
You're like at the end of that 

1303
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:04,800
unit. 
Now you think your children are 

1304
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,000
really solid with error in 
perimeter. 

1305
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,520
They understand what the words 
mean, what they are you can say 

1306
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,760
to okay, the area of a rectangle
is 24 centimetres squared. 

1307
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,040
What are the length of its 
sides? 

1308
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,440
Okay, so there's not one answer.
There's not one answer. 

1309
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:18,160
Not one answer. 
Yeah. 

1310
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,440
So as as a teacher then you know
they're proficient with what 

1311
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,440
area is, they know that you know
they can draw a rectangle out, 

1312
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,400
they know opposite sides and a 
rectangle the same. 

1313
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:27,480
All of that base knowledge is 
there. 

1314
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:30,720
Their entire focus, then, is on 
trying things out. 

1315
00:49:30,720 --> 00:49:32,080
Open-ended, more than one 
option. 

1316
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,080
This is a good example of where 
reasoning and problem solving do

1317
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,000
join up and it's really is a 
perfect example. 

1318
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,720
OK, that is where a child now 
reasoning is this floater in the

1319
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:41,600
middle where generally it's we 
teach it with fluency. 

1320
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,120
That's a good example where 
they're using both. 

1321
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,640
They have to reason, they have 
to explain why there's multiple 

1322
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:46,760
answers. 
They have to explain why. 

1323
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,320
Well, if I half this side, this 
one might double that. 

1324
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,400
Got like that kind of thing. 
But it's a problem because as a 

1325
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,640
teacher, you should be building 
in an environment where they 

1326
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,200
haven't seen this question 
before. 

1327
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,640
They don't know. 
They've got no tangible way of 

1328
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,280
like, well, Sir showed me a 
minute ago to draw a rectangle. 

1329
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,560
No, no, let them try it out 
themselves. 

1330
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:04,880
That is the art of problem 
solving. 

1331
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,400
And why is it important? 
Not because in a test they're 

1332
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,800
going to, this is going to come 
up again, by definition. 

1333
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,440
It's unfamiliar by definition. 
So it's not teaching to a test. 

1334
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,120
This is why it gets so warped. 
It gets so warped into being A2 

1335
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,000
mark question, I might say on 
the SAT, that's your problem 

1336
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,880
solving. 
No, it's not though, is it? 

1337
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,360
Problem solving is literally by 
definition something that they 

1338
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,240
won't see before and won't 
necessarily see again. 

1339
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:28,320
In that context, yeah. 
Good. 

1340
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,240
What's the next? 
One, use logical reasoning. 

1341
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:32,640
So by this I mean I'm thinking 
of those word riddles where it's

1342
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,280
like 1 cinema has X amount of 
people in it and the other 

1343
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,600
cinema has 13 fewer. 
Cinema 4 has half the amount of 

1344
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,360
cinema 2 and and they're getting
this, all this information and 

1345
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:43,880
you've got to try and organise 
it. 

1346
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:45,560
Be logical. 
What comes ahead of what? 

1347
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:47,720
Yeah. 
And and that idea of just being 

1348
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:49,280
logical itself, it's not in the 
curriculum. 

1349
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,680
It might be that the third line 
Cinema 3 is your kind of start 

1350
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,000
point because it tells you 
Cinema 3 has 50 receipts or 

1351
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:56,840
whatever and they're like, OK, 
now I know that I can go back to

1352
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,680
line one because that told me 
that Cinema one has half of 

1353
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,200
Cinema 3 and then come on, I 
know that one. 

1354
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,360
I can then work out four and 
then I can find the total. 

1355
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,440
And what you can sprinkle in 
with these questions is whilst 

1356
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,680
it's still problem solving, you 
can sprinkle in what you've 

1357
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,520
recently done. 
If you've recently done 

1358
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,560
multiples, have it twice as 
much, 7 times as much, half as 

1359
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:13,560
much. 
If you've done halving that 

1360
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,040
stuff, you can basically tail 
your your problem solving to 

1361
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,280
have maths in it that your 
children have become fluent in 

1362
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,800
to really then focus on the idea
of OK, being logical and still 

1363
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,680
applying what they've done, 
still doing maths that's 

1364
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,600
relevant to the curriculum. 
Next one, working backwards. 

1365
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:29,480
Think about those inverse 
machines you get. 

1366
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,080
But it might be written in words
this time. 

1367
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,760
So you might say Sally's just 
had her birthday. 

1368
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,040
She's three years younger than 
Pete, and Pete's half the age of

1369
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,160
Bob. 
Bob just celebrated his 42nd 

1370
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:40,560
birthday. 
Yeah, you know, work backwards 

1371
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,040
to get back to the original age.
Exactly. 

1372
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:43,200
It's. 
Different because there's one 

1373
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,400
linear way of getting there, but
how the children are going to do

1374
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:46,320
that? 
They're going to do one at a 

1375
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:47,400
time. 
Have you just done inverse 

1376
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,280
together? 
Can I take a really good example

1377
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,360
of this in year 6 as a year 6 
teacher, I see it every single 

1378
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,600
year and it's such a good way of
me understanding whether a child

1379
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,800
understands fractions of amounts
properly. 

1380
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,320
Fractions of amounts is a year 4
objective if you're not too sure

1381
00:51:58,320 --> 00:51:59,600
of that. 
So by year six, we do kind of 

1382
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,520
expect this to be fairly 
confident and fluent with that, 

1383
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,560
right? 
And as soon as I give even like 

1384
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,200
a top set, if we, if you're 
doing setting maths Group A 

1385
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:12,600
question that's like 1/3 of a 
number is 12 or even harder, 3/4

1386
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,480
of a number is 12. 
What was the original number? 

1387
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,480
That's that kind of idea. 
That to me is such a good 

1388
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,240
problem to give a kid once 
they've become fluent in finding

1389
00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:22,280
fractions of amounts, because it
really requires them to think 

1390
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:23,960
about their conceptual 
understanding. 

1391
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,720
And if you've just taught them a
trick, divide by the denominator

1392
00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:29,200
times by the top and you've 
never ever, ever showed them 

1393
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,120
anything else, right? 
They just know that that trick 

1394
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:32,520
works. 
They will not know how to solve 

1395
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,120
that problem. 
And again, I'm going to whizz 

1396
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:35,920
through the rest now because 
we're going to link down below 

1397
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,960
the document. 
It's well worth reading if you 

1398
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:39,760
want to look into. 
Problems do like a really quick 

1399
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:40,960
example. 
But yeah, for example, there 

1400
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:42,720
that. 
But what I'm saying here is the 

1401
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:44,480
different techniques we're going
to talk about and I'm going to 

1402
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,680
whizz through now can be used 
multiple for one question. 

1403
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:48,440
So you're talking about there 
it's kind of like inverse 

1404
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:49,920
working backwards understanding 
something. 

1405
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,640
I'd also say in that case, 
technique 4, for example, is 

1406
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:55,640
draw a diagram. 
Yeah, I'd be drawing a diagram 

1407
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:56,920
now. 
I'd be drawing the quarters out.

1408
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:58,520
I'd be doing a bar model if it's
necessary. 

1409
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,280
Do you know what I mean? 
So it's not just like these 

1410
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:01,360
techniques we're talking about 
here. 

1411
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,640
They're not just like pick one 
and do it. 

1412
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,840
It's like a bookshelf. 
You might take 3 and you need. 

1413
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,640
Some models is your overall 
point here is we can teach these

1414
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,440
individual skills and once we've
taught all nine of these skills,

1415
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,880
yes, they'll be better at 
problem solving with genuine 

1416
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,640
unfamiliar because. 
Then it's completely unfamiliar.

1417
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,400
They might say, well OK, I'll 
try for example technique 9, 

1418
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,560
trial and improvement. 
I'll let you just whack a number

1419
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,320
and see if it works. 
That could work for the inverse 

1420
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,880
machine working backwards. 
They might try and work 

1421
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:26,440
backwards. 
That doesn't quite work for 

1422
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:28,520
them. 
OK, well my teachers taught me 

1423
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:29,640
all these techniques to problem 
solving. 

1424
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,280
Let me try just putting a number
in and the whole point here is 

1425
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,400
if they become proficient in 
these different techniques of 

1426
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,760
problem solving, again, click on
the link for the rest of them 

1427
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,120
because there's few in there. 
Drawing a table be an organised 

1428
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,520
spotting a pattern. 
The idea is that's a that's a 

1429
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,240
tool book. 
Then for them, not only can they

1430
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:46,880
solve problems in class when 
they're older, think of all of 

1431
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:48,680
these things here. 
If you can visualise stuff well,

1432
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,440
if you can try something out. 
The amount of times we use trial

1433
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,920
improvement in everyday life, 
honestly all the time, and we're

1434
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,280
estimating things and we go 
shopping and we say things be 

1435
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,200
this much roughly and we don't 
work in exacts all the time, but

1436
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:00,960
it's problem solving. 
Same with a rough ballpark. 

1437
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,160
Can I draw a table out? 
Can I Draw Something out if I'm 

1438
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,640
trying to understand something? 
I love getting a piece of paper 

1439
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,360
and just drawing stuff and then 
that for me in my brain solves 

1440
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:09,960
that problem because I can see 
it differently. 

1441
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,520
So the point here is problem 
solving is the most important 

1442
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,440
part of the curriculum. 
You're building a toolbox for 

1443
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,560
life. 
When someone says why, Why in 

1444
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:22,080
school do they teach me about 24
centimetres squared and what the

1445
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:23,680
perimeter would be? 
Why don't they teach me about my

1446
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,320
taxes? 
They did teach you about your 

1447
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,400
taxes because they taught you 
the maths and they taught you 

1448
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,400
how to problem solve. 
I can't. 

1449
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:31,880
It's like the history degree 
thing. 

1450
00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:35,120
When people come to me and say 
you've got a history degree, 

1451
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:36,600
have you? 
I bet you do you know everything

1452
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,000
ever. 
No they they didn't teach me 

1453
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:40,760
everything ever. 
You could pick something up. 

1454
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,400
Why did you teach me exactly 
this about African history but 

1455
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,920
in pre colonial times? 
Because that's what I chose to 

1456
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:47,360
do. 
But you know what I learnt? 

1457
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,160
I learnt the. 
Skills how to research of. 

1458
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,200
How to research of how to take 
bias into account, how to go to 

1459
00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:54,040
the library, how to interpret 
sources. 

1460
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:55,280
It's so true. 
How to write an essay. 

1461
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,040
Those skills. 
Now I could pick up and apply to

1462
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,760
19th century Hungary if I wanted
to, but I built those skills up.

1463
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:03,760
So if someone comes to me and 
say, why didn't they teach you 

1464
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:04,920
about this and your history 
degree? 

1465
00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:07,520
They didn't need to. 
They taught me the skills 

1466
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,480
required to be able to learn 
about it. 

1467
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,760
Same with your taxes. 
Same with your other things. 

1468
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:13,800
Look, I think there's space for 
stuff like that in the 

1469
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,440
curriculum when they're older. 
Don't get me wrong, but it winds

1470
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,200
me up a bit when people say they
didn't teach me this exact 

1471
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,080
thing. 
No, because it's a process. 

1472
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,920
And that's why the aims of the 
maths curriculum are fluency, 

1473
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,840
reasoning and problem solving. 
And it's why if you look at the 

1474
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,800
purpose of the maths curriculum,
it is embedded in real life 

1475
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,000
problem solving. 
Because we can't teach you how 

1476
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:33,760
to do everything. 
Because when you're 8 you don't 

1477
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,000
quite understand compound 
interest and how to invest or 

1478
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,120
how to do your income returns. 
But what you can do is start to 

1479
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:40,920
learn how to do trial 
improvement, start to learn how 

1480
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,120
to understand something, start 
to learn how to draw a picture 

1481
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:44,760
to get something in your mind a 
bit clearer. 

1482
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,000
These are the problem solving 
skills that allow mathematicians

1483
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,200
to grow and interpret the real 
world. 

1484
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,760
Yeah, yeah, but in English, Sir.
Same thing in English, Sir. 

1485
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,920
Why did you teach me 
specifically how to do this 

1486
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:57,800
newspaper report? 
I want to write books. 

1487
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,320
So what? 
We didn't, did we? 

1488
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,400
We actually taught you loads of 
different writing skills. 

1489
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:02,960
We applied them in some 
examples. 

1490
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,000
And now you've got this whole 
plethora, this whole Bank of 

1491
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,840
vocabulary, sentence structures,
different types of writing, 

1492
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:09,480
formality. 
You can go and apply it to 

1493
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:10,680
anything you want. 
It's the same sort of thing, 

1494
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:11,440
isn't it? 
Exactly. 

1495
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,200
I think it links to English more
than I realised. 

1496
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,000
The more we talk about it let's 
you know the whole idea again, 

1497
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,880
kind of independent writing. 
It's like you don't, you don't. 

1498
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,320
You said problem solving is not 
putting it on the screen, 

1499
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,200
showing them how to do it, give 
them different numbers. 

1500
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:24,520
Do you know what independent 
writing isn't? 

1501
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,480
It isn't giving them the writing
on the screen and then saying 

1502
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:28,480
right, replace all the 
adjectives. 

1503
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:29,800
Now it's your writing. 
It's not, is it? 

1504
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,280
It's actually about building up 
the fluency over a couple of 

1505
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,920
weeks, perhaps building up the 
skills, giving them everything 

1506
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:36,760
they need to know, showing the 
modelling, modelling, modelling 

1507
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,520
along the way and then saying 
here's an unfamiliar environment

1508
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:40,840
because it's a brand new piece 
of writing. 

1509
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:43,200
Can you write me about this now 
and seeing if they can apply it 

1510
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:44,200
and can they apply it straight 
away? 

1511
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:45,520
No, not always, but you know 
what? 

1512
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:46,920
They're at school for years. 
You come back to it, you 

1513
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,640
revisit, you revisit, you 
revisit. 

1514
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,720
So I think we should now talk 
about how we actually structure 

1515
00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:53,120
the curriculum. 
I know we're already going on 

1516
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,200
way into this episode, so we 
might have to cut some stuff 

1517
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,600
here, Dylan, but I feel like we 
should talk about, I really want

1518
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,840
to talk about like, like, like 
the scheme, like the overview, 

1519
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,400
how you how you look at maths, 
because there's two massive 

1520
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,680
parts of maths, which I think 
are like long rivals and people 

1521
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:08,640
always argue about them. 
The types of curriculum, I 

1522
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:12,080
should say, which is should we 
teach maths in a block 

1523
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,240
curriculum or a spiral 
curriculum? 

1524
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:15,560
And let me just clarify what 
those are. 

1525
00:57:15,720 --> 00:57:19,080
So a spiral curriculum is this 
idea that you kind of you, you 

1526
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,880
revisit, typically you revisit 
the whole curriculum three times

1527
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:23,640
across the year. 
You sort of go over everything 

1528
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,040
up to Christmas and you kind of 
go over it all again after that.

1529
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:27,560
You kind of go over it all again
before summer. 

1530
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:29,720
So they're constantly coming 
back to it, which is a really 

1531
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,600
good concept I get. 
And the block curriculum is this

1532
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:34,720
idea of like, no, rather than 
doing a bit of addition now and 

1533
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,640
a bit of addition after 
Christmas and a bit of addition 

1534
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:40,560
in June, I'm just going to teach
every single edition objective 

1535
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:44,600
right now in a massive block. 
And I'm not then going to teach 

1536
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,480
that as my main objective again 
for the rest of the year. 

1537
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:48,520
So let's talk about those two 
things. 

1538
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,000
What are your, I feel like 
you're the expert today. 

1539
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:52,960
I'm, I'm really enjoying 
listening to you, even though 

1540
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:54,080
I've heard all this stuff 
before. 

1541
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,280
What's your opinion on the 
spiral curriculum versus the 

1542
00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:59,520
block curriculum? 
Do you have a favourite or do 

1543
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:01,680
you think there's just a whole 
new perspective we need to take?

1544
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,240
So I, I've been on like a roller
coaster journey with my opinion 

1545
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,320
on this because when I started 
out, I, I, I started out my 

1546
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,920
teaching after the new 
curriculum came in and it was 

1547
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,600
like mastery push block 
teaching's the way to go. 

1548
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,520
You should block, teach, blah, 
blah, blah. 

1549
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:15,560
And I thought that for a long 
time. 

1550
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,960
Then I came round to it like, 
well, do you know, it's maybe in

1551
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,480
10 years we'll say Spiral's the 
best way again and come back to 

1552
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,160
it. 
And my opinion for a long time 

1553
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:24,680
was, do you know what? 
It doesn't really matter as long

1554
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:26,320
as you're doing it this year, as
long as you're going to have 

1555
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,160
started it, it's cool. 
I've actually come back around 

1556
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:31,240
to, I'm happy to sit here and 
say I think block teaching is 

1557
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:33,160
better. 
I'm happy to sit here and say 

1558
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:34,640
that it comes with a caveat. 
I was. 

1559
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:35,760
Going to say are there any like 
it? 

1560
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,720
Does come with a caveat because 
I I completely agree when people

1561
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:41,680
say it's insanely idea. 
If you think about place value, 

1562
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,760
for example, doing block 
teaching in Year 4, we do place 

1563
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,640
value for two or three weeks in 
September and then it's not on 

1564
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,680
the curriculum again. 
Until the next year. 

1565
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,200
Yeah. 
Do you really think a good maths

1566
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,560
teacher will only do place value
for three weeks and a year at 

1567
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,360
the start and then just expect a
child to understand it? 

1568
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:58,320
What and? 
And never mention it again. 

1569
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:00,000
Exactly. 
No, that's not what happens. 

1570
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,800
So I think what I think in terms
of teaching new things and 

1571
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:08,800
really going down that route of 
reasoning and fluency and then 

1572
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,880
the chance to do some problem 
solving, I think you can only 

1573
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,560
really do that in a block. 
Yeah, OK. 

1574
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,240
You can really have two or three
weeks to get into it and then 

1575
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,360
you don't have have to worry 
about shoehorning in problem 

1576
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:20,080
solving because you know you've 
got to move on to something else

1577
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:21,400
next week. 
You've got two weeks. 

1578
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,240
Why don't you think you can do 
it as spiral as well I. 

1579
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:24,880
Think, I think you can do it as 
spiral, but I think you'd be 

1580
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:26,120
rushing. 
I think I'm thinking about, 

1581
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:29,200
let's say we're doing additional
subtraction for a week in before

1582
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,200
Christmas and then a week before
Eastern, a week at the end, 

1583
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:32,200
right? 
Let's just say it's three weeks 

1584
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:34,520
or four weeks. 
I think you're really rushing 

1585
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,200
then at the start to cover 
everything, OK, You'll be doing 

1586
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,080
at such a surface level that the
children don't get that chance 

1587
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,520
to reason and problem solve and 
really embed that learning into 

1588
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,440
their long term memory. 
I think you kind of just skim 

1589
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,240
over it. 
Kids kind of get it, they can 

1590
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:47,360
kind of do it and they're 
caught. 

1591
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,160
I don't have to go over this 
again because I'm doing it in 

1592
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:51,720
three months and it becomes like
this false sense of, well, I'm 

1593
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:53,680
coming back to it, so it's fine.
And then in three months, 

1594
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:56,120
ironically, they've forgotten. 
They've forgotten more than they

1595
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,000
would have forgotten if you 
literally did it the week after.

1596
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,480
So then you're revisiting things
that maybe you wouldn't have had

1597
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,720
to have done if you were 
literally teaching that week, 

1598
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,240
the week after the first time 
you did it. 

1599
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:05,560
I agree. 
For me, it's like this graph 

1600
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,720
that kind of goes up and dips 
down a little bit because you've

1601
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:10,080
left it too long. 
They were starting to get it. 

1602
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:11,880
They were starting to get. 
They just needed another week or

1603
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,480
two to really master. 
And that's the whole quick one, 

1604
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:15,160
isn't it? 
Mastery. 

1605
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,640
Yeah, I think what's important 
though to say is I think you 

1606
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,880
have to build in time to revisit
stuff. 

1607
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:24,520
You don't have to do whole 
lessons on it, but you have to 

1608
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:26,120
build in time. 
For example, this is what we've 

1609
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:27,440
done. 
We've been really strict of this

1610
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,680
in our school. 
Maths is almost split into two. 

1611
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,440
OK, so maths we have, let me 
think of the exact timings. 

1612
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:36,840
We have an hour and 15 minutes 
for maths and what we say to 

1613
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:41,760
people is 20 to 25 minutes every
single morning is for your times

1614
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,120
table, your basic facts and 
you're revisiting your 

1615
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:46,680
recapping, going over stuff or 
pre teaching, which we call it 

1616
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,320
sounds like a lot. 
A starter time. 

1617
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,240
It's called starter time, but 
it's mixed starter time and it 

1618
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:53,960
doesn't have to have anything to
do with your lesson that day. 

1619
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,160
It is literally like a separate 
lesson. 

1620
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:58,680
So in that time you might think,
do you know what? 

1621
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,160
It's been a couple of weeks. 
We did addition for three weeks.

1622
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:03,080
They're really good at it, but I
want to keep this ticking over. 

1623
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:05,720
So on Tuesday this week we're 
going to do like a 10 minute bit

1624
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:07,240
on on an addition of 
subtraction. 

1625
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:08,840
Yeah. 
Oh, actually my children were 

1626
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:10,320
really fluent with what we did 
last week. 

1627
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,800
We've moved on to area now, but 
I can give them a problem to 

1628
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:14,640
solve, that's where. 
Problem solve they can apply. 

1629
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:15,800
Fluid. 
Let's see if they can apply 

1630
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:17,240
exactly that. 
Let's do some problem solving. 

1631
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,720
Nothing to do today's lesson, 
but I'm going to do some problem

1632
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:21,360
solving for something I think 
they're fluent in that we've 

1633
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,480
just done. 
Then on Friday you might think, 

1634
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,400
OK, well, actually in the 
future, I know, I know coming up

1635
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:28,680
in area, I actually really want 
to be really strong with their 

1636
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,080
factor pairs and their 
understanding of times tables. 

1637
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:33,440
So I'm going to really focus on 
the seven times table because my

1638
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,080
class were weak with that and 
it's going to help them in the 

1639
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:36,760
future and it helps them with 
the times tables. 

1640
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,680
It can look scattered. 
It could look crazy to someone 

1641
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:41,320
coming in. 
There's no coherence there in 

1642
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:44,520
terms of from the outside, but 
as the teacher with your class, 

1643
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,520
you're doing what they need. 
So the other year 4 class, the 

1644
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,920
other year 4 class parallel, I 
would expect to see different 

1645
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,120
starters. 
Maybe 80% could be the same, 

1646
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:55,200
don't get me wrong, but I would 
expect to see, oh gosh, you know

1647
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:56,760
what, my class, I just want to 
go over this again. 

1648
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:00,440
So and then when it comes to the
lesson themselves, that's block 

1649
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,080
teaching, that's getting right 
into the nitty gritty, sticking 

1650
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:05,640
your teeth into it, getting them
to be really fluent through 

1651
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:09,760
reasoning and through very 
fluency and then problem solving

1652
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,800
irrelevant or use your starter 
time when they become fluent. 

1653
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:14,080
Sure. 
Can I try and summarise what you

1654
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:15,480
said and you can tell me if I've
missed anything? 

1655
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,840
So I think what you're saying 
here is it's a bit of a cop out 

1656
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:18,720
really. 
It's bit both, isn't it? 

1657
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:21,520
When it comes to teaching, 
teaching the main objectives of 

1658
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:23,280
of your lesson, especially with 
new learning. 

1659
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,720
We should teach in blocks, allow
children to master that 

1660
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:27,800
objective before we move on with
as much time as possible. 

1661
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,920
But we should reserve a time in 
lessons that is sacred for 

1662
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:33,560
revisiting. 
We call it starters. 

1663
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:36,560
And that very much adopts a 
spiral approach of there is no 

1664
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:38,400
set rule. 
You revisit things as much as 

1665
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,400
you wish, as often as you wish 
or as little as you wish. 

1666
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:43,960
But everything should be 
revisited across the year to 

1667
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,960
ensure that children are 
remembering the learning and 

1668
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,680
having a go and having a chance 
to correct things if they didn't

1669
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,280
actually quite get it at the 
time and even just solidify or 

1670
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:53,800
even go further with a bit of 
problem solving. 

1671
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,440
So the spiral curriculum is 
embedded into our block 

1672
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,200
curriculum. 
It's a bit of both. 

1673
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:00,280
There's not one or the other. 
Yeah. 

1674
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:02,280
Interesting. 
I think, I think in that we can 

1675
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,960
talk about whole times tables 
because I think especially lower

1676
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:06,840
down in the school when you 
learn your times tables, you can

1677
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,400
use that time to just practise. 
Don't be scared of rote 

1678
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:11,600
learning. 
You wanted to talk very I think 

1679
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,680
about the whole thing about the 
lesson structure and diving into

1680
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:17,320
new learning. 
The reason block works well is 

1681
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,920
because it allows a slower 
approach. 

1682
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,240
It allows you to go into what we
are widely accepted for new 

1683
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:25,600
learning and maths is is the 
best way to do it. 

1684
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:28,200
Is the CPA approach the concrete
pictorial abstract? 

1685
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,440
Maybe you could briefly just 
talk about what you'd expect to 

1686
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,600
see in a good maths lesson, 
introducing a new topic. 

1687
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:35,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
What would it look like? 

1688
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:36,640
So. 
Let's let's break down some 

1689
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:37,880
misconceptions as well as we 
talk. 

1690
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:39,880
So concrete pictorial abstract, 
you will have heard if you're a 

1691
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:42,520
teacher, it's it was especially 
over the last decade, it's been 

1692
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:44,120
a buzzword. 
It's the idea. 

1693
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:46,040
And this is what this is what 
it's really used for. 

1694
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,520
It's not if your school has an 
approach of every lesson, I want

1695
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:51,840
to see some concrete resources 
out for your lower ability. 

1696
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,120
I want to see some pictorial 
stuff for your middles, and I 

1697
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:55,360
want your tops working in the 
abstract. 

1698
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,480
That is not. 
What concrete pictorial abstract

1699
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,720
process is that This is what it 
really is. 

1700
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:03,920
When a child, any child, any 
ability, learns something brand 

1701
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:05,240
new. 
They've never looked at this 

1702
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:06,800
objective before in a previous 
year. 

1703
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,440
You should start in the 
concrete. 

1704
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:11,920
What do you mean by the? 
Concrete, so physical. 

1705
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,640
The physical world, something 
you can touch, something you can

1706
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:15,720
manipulate. 
That's what we call the 

1707
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:17,840
manipulators, manipulatives. 
Manipulatives. 

1708
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,600
Quite often I can't speak, but 
things like Deans, blocks, 

1709
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:22,680
counters, those kinds of things,
they're all manipulatives that 

1710
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:24,240
you can hold, and I try. 
And manipulate you. 

1711
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,200
Are you a manipulative? 
I'm manipulate, manipulatable. 

1712
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,160
That's malleable, hard words. 
No, no, no, no, no. 

1713
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:32,560
Make it harder, but. 
Yeah, sorry, you said. 

1714
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:34,520
So you start is. 
Anything manipulative. 

1715
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:36,360
I'm just I'm interested here. 
Like what what? 

1716
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:38,080
What do you mean by? 
Honestly, literally anything 

1717
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:39,240
that helps understand the 
concept. 

1718
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:41,040
Genuinely anything. 
It doesn't have to be something 

1719
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:42,360
you bought on the teacher 
website. 

1720
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:43,600
That's like, all these blocks 
are perfect. 

1721
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:45,000
It can be anything. 
You can bring in something from 

1722
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,360
home, be cups if they're useful 
for what you're doing, whatever.

1723
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:50,640
And then because you're teaching
them the concept at that point, 

1724
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:53,120
the idea is you're allowing them
to build conceptual 

1725
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:55,880
understanding in the easiest 
way, which is the real world. 

1726
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:59,320
You know, you don't go up to a 
person that's learning like a 2 

1727
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:01,120
year old. 
You don't go up to them and the 

1728
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:03,320
first time they've ever, ever 
had any encounter with a tree, 

1729
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,800
You don't show them the word 
tree, do you? 

1730
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,160
You go up to a tree in real life
and you let them touch it and 

1731
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:09,920
you say tree, This is a tree, 
right? 

1732
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:11,160
And then eventually, do you know
what? 

1733
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:13,120
Once, once they really start to 
get the idea, you can show them 

1734
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:15,320
a picture of a tree and they'll 
start to be like, Oh, that's 

1735
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:17,160
that thing that I've seen in 
real life, because obviously the

1736
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,920
real life makes my sense to me. 
And then eventually you can say,

1737
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,120
here's these random squiggles 
that we've made-up that 

1738
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:25,080
represent this idea of tree mass
is the same. 

1739
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,000
So getting them to the 
squiggles, the numbers at the 

1740
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,160
end, yeah. 
So when when with Rory, I want 

1741
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,200
to teach what a lion is, I 
should take them up to a lion 

1742
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:37,480
that's concrete. 
Let him touch the. 

1743
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:41,000
Lion right, Let him feel the 
inside of the lions mouth. 

1744
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:44,760
Lion sharply. 
Then can I show him a picture? 

1745
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:48,720
Yeah, OK, alright, maybe he 
doesn't have to touch the lion. 

1746
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:53,880
You know what, you're joking. 
But there is actually a really 

1747
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,560
good point here, which is you 
can quite often start in the 

1748
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,000
pictorial genuinely there. 
There is a middle ground where 

1749
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:00,360
some things. 
It's a journey. 

1750
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:01,920
And you could, yeah. 
It's a journey and it's quite 

1751
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:03,760
often you could if it's 
something is so obvious, like 

1752
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:05,600
the lines gonna eat like like 
this. 

1753
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:08,360
Manipulative Will bio. 
You know like classic reception 

1754
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,920
right where they do they will 
use like apples when they apples

1755
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:12,880
that do you know what they don't
need real apples. 

1756
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:15,440
They might have counters to 
represent the apples to so they 

1757
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,000
can physically move something. 
They can understand the idea of 

1758
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:20,120
the number, but you know what 
the apple is just something so. 

1759
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:22,280
Even in the concrete though, 
right? 

1760
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,280
Even in the concrete there is 
also progression. 

1761
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,560
So you think like Dean's blocks,
like physically there's one 

1762
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:30,440
small block, physically there's 
a 10 which is literally 10 times

1763
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:31,840
bigger. 
Then there's 100, which is 

1764
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:34,160
literally 10 times bigger and 
you can get ten 10s and see it's

1765
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:36,080
100. 
So that's something you could do

1766
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:37,960
with honestly your three 
children, even your two children

1767
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:40,120
with the ones you might do if 
your receptions and you're just 

1768
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:41,880
counting and stuff. 
But then there's still 

1769
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:45,000
progression there because still 
with the concrete is you think 

1770
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:47,600
about place fire counters where 
they have a one written on them 

1771
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:50,200
and a 10 written on them. 
And I've said this for a long 

1772
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:54,080
time, I think counters are 
closer to pictorial than they 

1773
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:55,800
are to concrete. 
And, and there'll be people who 

1774
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,840
though who'll say concrete, 
pictorial, abstract, let's get 

1775
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:01,880
the counters out first. 
I'm like, oh, OK, actually, why 

1776
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:02,840
are you getting the concrete 
out? 

1777
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,760
It's because it's new learning. 
Do they understand the relation 

1778
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:07,000
between? 
One and two, my answer to this 

1779
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,280
is every time that is, and I 
think this is valid, is that 

1780
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:11,320
both of them are do their new 
learning in different ways. 

1781
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,760
Exactly When you're getting out 
the Deans blocks, the new 

1782
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,400
learning is honestly them 
literally understanding the 

1783
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:19,320
relationships between sizes of 
numbers, knowing that 10 is 10 

1784
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:21,360
times bigger than one and that's
what 10 times bigger looks like 

1785
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:22,960
when you're at the counter 
stage. 

1786
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,840
It's them understanding that in 
place value we exchange. 

1787
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,120
So is it so with most year five 
and six children, for example, 

1788
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:31,400
you wouldn't necessarily feel 
that you need to get the Deans 

1789
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:32,440
out? 
No, most of the time. 

1790
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,160
Most of the time if I'm children
working out there, if I had a 

1791
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:37,040
child working year one level in 
year 6, I'd absolutely be 

1792
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:38,680
getting them out, of course, but
most of the time, not at all. 

1793
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:41,200
So a new concept, you know, a 
new concept in year 6 might be 

1794
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:42,600
multiplying fractions together. 
Sure. 

1795
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,120
And I think it is valid to start
in the pictorial of this and 

1796
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:48,840
show them an array, right? 
You know, with multiplication, 

1797
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:52,240
like with area, we'd show them 7
* 4, We'd show them 7 rows of 

1798
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:53,840
four, right? 
I would get, I would get a 

1799
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:55,920
rectangle out and I'd say, OK, 
we're doing, we know how 

1800
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:57,760
multiplication works. 
We know it labels these two 

1801
01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:58,920
sides and we know it's linked to
area. 

1802
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:01,840
OK, we've got 3/4 * 1/2. 
How are we going to do that? 

1803
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:03,240
How we can label it? 
OK, cool, let's cut it. 

1804
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:05,560
Let's cut this one into 1/2. 
So we've got two rows. 

1805
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:07,400
Let's cut this one into columns,
sorry. 

1806
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:09,240
And let's cut this one into 4 
rows because we're showing 

1807
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,280
quarters. 
And then we can use shading to 

1808
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:15,000
show 3/4 of 1/2 like let's just 
take 1/2 and let's just do 3/4 

1809
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:16,160
of like you can. 
You can do because. 

1810
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:18,240
There are people who think year 
6 cool, you're in the abstract 

1811
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:20,040
now because this journey, CPA is
just. 

1812
01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:22,560
Free, not at all, right? 
Even with my even with even with

1813
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,960
a top set mass in year 6, I will
still use the pictorial with new

1814
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:28,760
learning and you know what? 
I might do it for 5 minutes 

1815
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:30,399
because you know what? 
Because that because that level 

1816
01:08:30,399 --> 01:08:33,359
of that ability child very 
quickly goes oh, it always 

1817
01:08:33,359 --> 01:08:35,479
happens that you multiply the 
numerators and the denominators 

1818
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:37,160
because that's how you end up 
shading that bit in. 

1819
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:39,479
Can we just do that? 
And I'm like, yeah, that's why 

1820
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:40,880
it works. 
You've got the concept now crack

1821
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:41,319
on. 
You've got it. 

1822
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:43,399
So going back to what we said 
earlier about solving mass 

1823
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:45,840
anxiety and anxiousness and this
whole generation of just like, 

1824
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:47,359
why are you doing this? 
There's new maths. 

1825
01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:49,240
It's nonsense. 
By the way, I'm still scared of 

1826
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:51,840
doing maths myself. 
Listen, it's not their fault, 

1827
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:53,800
OK? 
I know I'm acting quite glib 

1828
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:56,680
about it, but there is like 
meaning behind this. 

1829
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:58,439
So when you're as a teacher 
thinking why am I bothering? 

1830
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:00,359
No, there honestly, there is 
meaning behind this because when

1831
01:09:00,359 --> 01:09:02,479
the children make those 
connections, when they see it in

1832
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:05,240
front of them, when you're 
facilitating that for them, they

1833
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,840
will understand things more. 
They will be less anxious when 

1834
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:09,520
they're older. 
They won't be as flippant about 

1835
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:11,000
it because it's not something 
they're worried about. 

1836
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:12,640
Yeah, but Dylan, they're not 
gonna get those Dean blocks in 

1837
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:14,760
that test, though, are they? 
OK, OK. 

1838
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:16,720
All right, OK. 
I see what you're doing here. 

1839
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:19,920
Let's let's let's round this off
talk about assessment. 

1840
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,760
We could be here all day talking
about, I'm hoping just a quick 

1841
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:25,120
breather here that you're 
getting the impression of how 

1842
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:26,880
passionate we are about maths 
and things like that. 

1843
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:29,960
We absolutely love it and 
there's a reason why we're maths

1844
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:32,399
specialists and need maths. 
So I hope you found this useful.

1845
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:34,399
Let's finish off with assessment
because I think there's going to

1846
01:09:34,399 --> 01:09:35,920
be a dose of realism here as 
well. 

1847
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:41,000
Assessment is weird, OK, It's 
weird. 

1848
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,880
It's it's weird. 
It is the end of my discussion. 

1849
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:47,399
Assessment is so odd. 
Let's break it down into the two

1850
01:09:47,399 --> 01:09:50,319
types of assessment. 
Formative assessment is what 

1851
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:52,520
goes on every single minute of 
the day. 

1852
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:55,480
As a teacher, you're constantly 
looking for feedback from the 

1853
01:09:55,480 --> 01:09:58,160
children to see how they're 
getting on the most, in my 

1854
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:02,040
opinion, crucial form of 
assessment that I think defines 

1855
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:03,480
you as a good teacher or not 
genuine. 

1856
01:10:03,480 --> 01:10:05,160
I'd say it's that important. 
That's what This is why 

1857
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:07,440
assessment's weird. 
I think that is the most 

1858
01:10:07,440 --> 01:10:09,320
important thing. 
Genuinely how you react to what?

1859
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:10,960
You're picking up when you're 
teaching. 

1860
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:13,440
What you're picking up, how you 
adapt to them when we talked 

1861
01:10:13,440 --> 01:10:15,360
about teacher standards and 
adaptation, I think that is 

1862
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:17,680
where you earn your salt as a 
teacher when you can't just go 

1863
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:19,240
off the slides and stuff. 
You know, anyone can get a 

1864
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:21,280
scheme up. 
It's when you're adapting stuff,

1865
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:23,240
OK. 
And and that comes in with being

1866
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:26,440
a good maths teacher in general,
by the way you adapt things for 

1867
01:10:26,440 --> 01:10:28,840
your class. 
You know, pitch and pace has to 

1868
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:30,480
be different. 
Your pitch might be higher 

1869
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:32,200
because you formatively have 
assessed the children are 

1870
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:34,200
better. 
The pitch might you have to slow

1871
01:10:34,200 --> 01:10:35,920
down in the lesson because you 
think, well, these kids don't 

1872
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:37,600
get this. 
The pace, OK, we're going to be 

1873
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:38,840
quicker. 
We're going to do this small 

1874
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,520
step in half a lesson. 
Oh gosh, I didn't get this. 

1875
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:44,120
Let's do it again tomorrow. 
So that that this is all comes 

1876
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:46,480
on the formative assessment and 
that's what good maths teaching 

1877
01:10:46,480 --> 01:10:48,560
looks like. 
You adapt the scheme that you've

1878
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:50,160
got in front of you. 
You don't just take it as 

1879
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:52,360
gospel. 
The progression brilliant, use 

1880
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:53,960
it. 
But your pitch and your pace is 

1881
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,040
what you're changing. 
That's formative assessment to 

1882
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:57,680
me. 
OK, we'll go into what's The 

1883
01:10:57,680 --> 01:10:59,120
other one, then. 
About that, maybe in a second. 

1884
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:02,840
The other one is summative OK 
and summative assessment is them

1885
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:09,800
sitting down for a formal test. 
Honestly, I'm someone who said I

1886
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:12,120
think the SAT should be kept and
I like the idea of the SAT 

1887
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:15,080
because it gives a benchmark. 
I still agree with that opinion.

1888
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:16,680
I still haven't changed my mind 
on that. 

1889
01:11:17,480 --> 01:11:21,560
I think about a child's journey 
through school year 12345 and 

1890
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:23,680
six. 
I think about them doing 3 tests

1891
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:25,920
a year at every single year 
group just for the data for the 

1892
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:28,840
school. 
I think most of the time it's a 

1893
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:30,200
waste of time. 
Yeah, yeah, big time if you've 

1894
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:31,600
actually add up that amount of 
time, right. 

1895
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:34,240
If you really think about it, I 
always get so annoyed when we do

1896
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:36,520
an assessment week genuinely 
because I'm like, oh, that's 

1897
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:38,720
three more lessons of, of 
teaching maths that I'm not 

1898
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:40,280
going to give those kids so. 
Context for you. 

1899
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:41,640
You're six teachers, for 
example. 

1900
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:44,680
It's hot enough to the Sats. 
The Sats are looming over 

1901
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:46,080
schools. 
You've got to get good scores. 

1902
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:50,960
It's seen as very normal to do 3
or 4 past Sats papers in test 

1903
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:52,640
conditions, very much like the 
real thing. 

1904
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:54,920
Yeah, pretty much. 
You think I think 1's good 

1905
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:56,960
because I think familiarity is a
different subject, is a 

1906
01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:58,160
different thing. 
I think it's good to make the 

1907
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:00,240
kids familiar so they're again, 
not as anxious about how the 

1908
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:02,000
tests are going to be, what 
they're going to feel like and 

1909
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:03,880
look like. 
But it's a waste of time to me 

1910
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:05,760
because you know what, I never 
really learned anything from 

1911
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:07,000
them. 
People say, oh, you can do a gap

1912
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:09,440
analysis. 
Listen, half the gap analysis on

1913
01:12:09,440 --> 01:12:11,560
a summative assessment, unless 
it's literally the end of the 

1914
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:13,920
year, is stuff you haven't even 
taught them anyway. 

1915
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:15,360
They can't do that. 
I know they can't do, I haven't 

1916
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:16,840
taught them yet, don't need to 
know that. 

1917
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:18,960
And now they just feel rubbish. 
They got tonnes of questions 

1918
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:20,200
wrong. 
How many times? 

1919
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:22,920
Let's talk about that for a 
second, because when you do that

1920
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,200
first Test of the year, every 
teacher will know this. 

1921
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:27,880
OK, Again, I'm using year 4 
because I'm in year 4. 

1922
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:30,800
We do a year 4 test after like 5
weeks, right? 

1923
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:33,800
And it's just an end of year. 
It's just a curriculum test. 

1924
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:36,520
It's a year 4 curriculum test. 
So there's fractions on there. 

1925
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:38,160
We're not touching fractions 
until Easter. 

1926
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:39,680
Yeah. 
That's the nature of the block. 

1927
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:40,480
Yeah. 
OK. 

1928
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:44,000
These tests, I feel like, were 
made for the spiral curriculum. 

1929
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:45,760
Yeah. 
OK, let's have term one. 

1930
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:47,320
Let's cover everything. 
Let's see where they are. 

1931
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,440
Wow, that gap analysis is 
actually quite useful because 

1932
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,720
all of my kids have got 95 plus 
in the distance subtraction. 

1933
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:56,680
So when I revisit that, I'll 
maybe do one lesson instead of a

1934
01:12:56,680 --> 01:12:58,720
whole week. 
And that means I can do more on 

1935
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:01,680
the fractions, which they got 
20% on, but I've still done 

1936
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:03,320
fractions. 
So this is kind of useful 

1937
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:05,480
information. 
I don't feel like assessments 

1938
01:13:05,480 --> 01:13:06,840
caught up with the block way of 
teaching. 

1939
01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:09,600
Okay, well, counter argument to 
this straight away from a 

1940
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:14,000
leader, head of school sort of 
perspective is it allows them to

1941
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:15,320
track progress though. 
Because if you give them three 

1942
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:17,040
end of year tests, it's one at 
the start of the year, one in 

1943
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:18,480
the middle, one at the end, you 
can very easily. 

1944
01:13:18,480 --> 01:13:20,400
If the tests are all the same 
standard, you can track 

1945
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:21,600
progress, right? 
You can. 

1946
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:24,320
OK. 
All I'd say to that is why are 

1947
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:26,640
you doing that? 
Like, honestly, what's the 

1948
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:27,960
purpose? 
It's not for the kids, is it? 

1949
01:13:28,480 --> 01:13:30,760
Let's not ever pretend it's for 
the kids because it's not. 

1950
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:32,320
Is it for the teachers? 
Do you know what my gap is, 

1951
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:33,400
though? 
Quickly for the kids? 

1952
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:35,040
My gap is what I haven't taught 
yet. 

1953
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:37,480
So I'm not changing. 
I'm not going to teach that in 

1954
01:13:37,480 --> 01:13:39,760
in in March. 
I'm teaching that, so I'm not 

1955
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:41,080
going to change that now, but. 
Can you argue some? 

1956
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:42,800
Some of the gaps will be things 
you have taught though, right? 

1957
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:44,000
Potentially. 
But you know what? 

1958
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:45,360
That's where formative 
assessment comes in. 

1959
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:49,640
Yeah, you know, honestly, right.
It says my kids can't do column 

1960
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:51,800
method subtraction properly 
because they've got gaps in 

1961
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:53,800
their test. 
If I didn't know that from 

1962
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:56,320
teaching it to them for three 
weeks, then that's a problem. 

1963
01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:59,560
If they can do it and they 
didn't do it on the test, it's 

1964
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:01,480
kind of good to know, but I know
they can do it. 

1965
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:05,960
So all we're actually seeing is 
how the kids perform on a test. 

1966
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:07,720
Yeah, that's all we're actually 
testing here. 

1967
01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:10,080
So let's get real then and stop 
pretending it's something 

1968
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:12,800
different because it's for the 
school to track data to be able 

1969
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:15,640
to say, oh, my teachers are 
teaching well because they're 

1970
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:17,440
just delivering the curriculum 
and they're getting higher 

1971
01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:19,160
scores. 
You could deliver the curriculum

1972
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:21,840
completely averagely and your 
scores would go up just based on

1973
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:24,080
coverage. 
There's notification of how good

1974
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:25,640
you're doing. 
There's a lot more nuance to it 

1975
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:26,760
basically. 
And I just think I'd rather 

1976
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:28,160
teach the kids free more lessons
on maths. 

1977
01:14:28,480 --> 01:14:30,240
So again, we're talking. 
You can hear about what a good 

1978
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:33,520
maths lesson looks like. 
It looks like constant quality 

1979
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:35,480
formative assessment. 
Do formative assessment all the 

1980
01:14:35,480 --> 01:14:37,640
time. 
Feedback from your children. 

1981
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:39,800
Change your lesson on the spot 
if you have to, if your children

1982
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,440
can't do something they need to 
do to access the rest of them. 

1983
01:14:42,440 --> 01:14:44,960
I just add as well, formative 
assessment can include testing. 

1984
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:47,400
It can include testing. 
We do something in our school, 

1985
01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:49,320
it's cumulative testing. 
It's not. 

1986
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:51,880
So just take away this idea of 
the summative idea of like, oh, 

1987
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:53,520
let's test them on the whole of 
the group, even though they 

1988
01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:54,800
haven't taught the whole 
curriculum yet. 

1989
01:14:55,240 --> 01:14:56,960
You can do formative. 
I do formative testing every 

1990
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:58,760
single week. 
I'll spend 10 minutes doing an 

1991
01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:02,200
arithmetic test purely based on 
skills I've taught them, the 

1992
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:04,280
arithmetic skills I've taught 
them just to see if they're if 

1993
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:05,080
they're retaining. 
But. 

1994
01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:07,640
To me that that is still 
summative, but just done right. 

1995
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,560
Like it's summative in that I'm 
not forming this opinion as I 

1996
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:12,440
go. 
I've I've taught this and I'm 

1997
01:15:12,440 --> 01:15:14,440
seeing if they can do it. 
It's like good summative 

1998
01:15:14,440 --> 01:15:15,800
assessment. 
It's closer to formative. 

1999
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:16,800
You're right, because you're 
kind of teaching. 

2000
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:18,320
As you go easy to manage. 
You know what I do every single 

2001
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:19,400
week? 
Just again, because if you're 

2002
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:21,240
listening this. 
Is a policy, yeah. 

2003
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:23,920
For ideas, what I do is I sit 
there on a, on a, some point in 

2004
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:26,720
the week and I'll write 10 
arithmetic questions based on 

2005
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:29,120
stuff we've even been learning 
recently or based on stuff from 

2006
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,600
weeks ago that where I'm like, 
oh, they, they were showing at 

2007
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:33,480
that time they weren't very that
they needed more practise on 

2008
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:36,080
this. 
And I will then deliver the 

2009
01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:37,960
test. 
I will literally just do it like

2010
01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:39,280
not even like a formal gap 
analysis. 

2011
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:41,920
I will just shot on a piece of 
paper which questions are most 

2012
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:43,840
incorrectly answered, Right. 
And I'll just see if there's a 

2013
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:45,160
bit of a pattern here. 
And I'll be like, oh, wow, 

2014
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:47,520
number six points out. 
And we'll be doing, I don't 

2015
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:49,040
know, decimals multiplied by 
whole numbers. 

2016
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:50,760
OK, brilliant. 
OK, I clearly didn't teach that 

2017
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:52,520
very well. 
Next week I will put that in my 

2018
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:54,920
starter and then guess what? 
I'll put it in that week's test 

2019
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:56,120
as well. 
And I'll just see if it improves

2020
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:58,040
and if it did, cool. 
If I can take it off, then I'll 

2021
01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:00,080
move on. 
And I just every week, I'm just 

2022
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:03,040
using a formative assessment 
tool of arithmetic test very, 

2023
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:05,560
very easily, quickly identify 
gaps in things I've taught, 

2024
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:09,000
being really important, they're 
things I've taught, and then 

2025
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:10,040
fill them if I need to. 
Yeah. 

2026
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:11,560
Easy. 
This is how I would summarise 

2027
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:12,960
this whole point here with 
assessment. 

2028
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:16,800
OK, assessment is genuinely, 
honestly only useful if you're 

2029
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:18,360
testing children on things 
they've done. 

2030
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:19,960
OK. 
Look at it like that. 

2031
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:22,960
If you're testing children on 
things they have not been taught

2032
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:25,560
yet, you are completely wasting 
everyone's time. 

2033
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:28,640
That is honestly true because in
that time that I did that test 

2034
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:30,480
when they were doing questions 
they've never seen before. 

2035
01:16:31,120 --> 01:16:31,720
Oh my God. 
But they. 

2036
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:32,720
Might already be able to do it 
they. 

2037
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:33,840
Might already be able to do it. 
Cool. 

2038
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:35,840
Do you know what in my lesson 
planning? 

2039
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:37,880
In that case, they'll move 
through the fluency and 

2040
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:40,120
reasoning. 
They'll like be able does a test

2041
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,480
really test if they can explain 
their answer, justify their 

2042
01:16:43,480 --> 01:16:47,040
reasoning, prove something. 
Do you know problem solve. 

2043
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:49,920
That's a good point, no So if 
they can already do it in a test

2044
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:52,080
situation, cool. 
I've got 17 other things that I 

2045
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:53,080
care about though from the 
career. 

2046
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:54,520
With that objective with. 
That objective. 

2047
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:55,960
So do you know what we're going 
to get there? 

2048
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:57,840
I've got a problem solving thing
for them where they've got to 

2049
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:01,680
try and, you know, try an 
improvement or draw a picture or

2050
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:04,280
act something out. 
It doesn't matter if they can do

2051
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:05,840
it in the test or not, that's 
not changed. 

2052
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:07,600
What's going to happen when it 
comes? 

2053
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:09,080
You can. 
Still enrich their mathematical 

2054
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:10,120
understanding. 
Going right back to the 

2055
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:12,000
beginnings episode. 
You can still enrich, you know, 

2056
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:13,880
the curriculum aims. 
Yeah, you can still. 

2057
01:17:13,880 --> 01:17:15,200
Oh. 
Let's look at those aims, shall 

2058
01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:15,640
we? 
Oh, yeah. 

2059
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:16,800
OK, cool. 
I've not done that. 

2060
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:19,080
Oh, but they answered the 
question 44 in this test that we

2061
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:19,960
haven't taught yet. 
Cool. 

2062
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:21,880
Has that changed the aims, the 
curriculum? 

2063
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:22,560
Yeah. 
Yeah, yeah. 

2064
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:23,600
No. 
And I'm guessed. 

2065
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:26,120
Yeah, maybe. 
Yeah, that's interesting. 

2066
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:28,320
So yeah, I think our our 
opinions on that assessment 

2067
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:30,680
quite clear, formative, very 
useful, essential to be in a 

2068
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:34,240
good maths teacher. 
Summative has some places, has 

2069
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:36,240
some uses, but really low down 
on the list. 

2070
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:38,480
Generally a bit of a waste of 
their time and your time. 

2071
01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:40,760
You could have just taught them 
three good maths lessons in that

2072
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:42,280
time you did the tests to be 
honest. 

2073
01:17:42,440 --> 01:17:45,120
So brilliant. 
Well, I honestly I think this 

2074
01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:46,600
this episode could have been 
twice as long. 

2075
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:48,480
I know I could feel us trying 
to. 

2076
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:51,000
Be like I know let's go. 
But guys I hope you find it 

2077
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:52,760
useful. 
You clicked on it for a bit of 

2078
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:54,760
help with to do maths. 
Hopefully you can see how 

2079
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:56,840
passionate we are. 
And yeah, I, we do to an extent,

2080
01:17:56,840 --> 01:17:58,080
I think kind of know what we're 
talking about. 

2081
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:00,160
I hope. 
Otherwise we're just wasting our

2082
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:00,880
problem. 
Let's know. 

2083
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:02,680
If you've got any questions as 
well, you know, we'll, we'll 

2084
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:04,040
always ask. 
I'm told man, by the way, I'm in

2085
01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:05,520
Denham so. 
Yeah, OK, Cheers. 

2086
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:07,400
Thanks, Sir. 
Opening that up, guys. 

2087
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:09,240
Thank you so much for listening.
And if you've got this far, 

2088
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:11,560
please, all we ask really is 
that you leave us a review, 

2089
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:14,520
follow us on Instagram at TCV 
Podcast and give us a message. 

2090
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:17,080
We love talking to you guys. 
Sweet, see you next. 

2091
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:17,360
Time.