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Hi everyone, welcome to this 
evening. 

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Can anyone remember my acronym 
Mind the GAP? 

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That then goes to GASP and 
tonight we're going to do GRASP 

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gap is gentleness. 
Ask if you don't understand 

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anything. 
Pay attention to how you feel S 

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say something. 
So I'm going to say something. 

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This is great bedtime reading 
for views on hell. 

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Woo Hoo. 
And the thing I'm going to say 

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is when I read this a while ago 
and actually it comes up in one 

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of the videos, I not only I 
follow the person who compiled 

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it, I've also heard at least two
or three of them separately, 

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contributors on podcasts talking
about things. 

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These are all really good people
who really care about, who love 

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Jesus and really care about 
faithfulness to Scripture. 

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And they've come up with four 
different interpretations that 

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are genuine. 
And I kind of came away with 

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that. 
I already thought two things 

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could be true at the same time. 
We see that a lot in theology. 

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Jesus is both human and divine, 
the word physical. 

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The Bible is both fully human 
and fully divine. 

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There are so many ways that we 
have to live with paradox and 

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tension. 
But I think this helped me with 

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the incredible complexity of the
fact we're creaturely and we 

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follow the Creator, the infinite
mind, and we have such a finite 

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mind, but our desperation from 
Eden is to be in control. 

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We just really want, we really 
want to be in control, to rule 

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in our own wisdom. 
And so it was just a little, 

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just a little moment of I think 
the big thing I came away with 

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this was, wow, people can be 
completely convinced by 

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something. 
And, and there's something very 

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powerful about being able to 
hold things in tension. 

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One of the big mysteries as we 
know and keeps coming back again

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and again and again, is this 
tension between free will and 

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predestination, whether we're 
all predestined to believe or 

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whether we're predestined to 
heaven or not, or, you know, 

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what the spectrum is with that 
and agency. 

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And it's not perfect, but Chris 
and IA long time ago came across

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this metaphor of being on a 
bicycle and that you put the 

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pedal down on, it's all on God, 
it's all on God, it's all on 

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God, or it's on me, my response,
my consent. 

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And you need to kind of keep 
peddling both to get somewhere. 

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If you just keep putting on one 
or the other, you go around in 

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circles and fall over. 
And I think there's something I,

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it can't be an eternal metaphor 
because there was a time before 

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the wheel was created and 
invented. 

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But I do think there's something
quite strong about that metaphor

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because what we're doing on this
course is we're pressing, 

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pressing and pressing on, on who
God is, what he's done. 

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It's all on the predestination 
side. 

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And we're also, well, so far in 
five sessions, there may be 

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someone on agency in response, I
don't know. 

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But just to kind of hold that 
complexity, that's my saying 

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something. 
Yeah. 

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So we've got Tim or Paul over to
Athanasius. 

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Thanks, Alice. 
Tim, you. 

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Tim's going to give us a 
breakdown of Athanasius of 

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Alexandria. 
Take it away. 

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Thank you very much. 
Goodness. 

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I'm at a point where I should 
have gone for 12, not 11 on my 

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print off. 
OK. 

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Good evening. 
I'm Tim. 

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Those I've met. 
Nice to see you all. 

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So, yes, Sent. 
Oh, yeah. 

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That feels very, very formal, 
isn't it? 

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Saint Athanasius of Alexandria. 
I've actually, before I read 

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this, thoroughly enjoyed 
researching this, Not as deeply 

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as I would like had I had more 
time, but enough to for 

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Athanasius to become a bit of a 
hero. 

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I mean, I knew a little bit 
about him, but he's literally a 

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hero. 
And so hopefully in the next 10 

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minutes you'll feel the same. 
St Athanasius of Alexandria, 

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Bishop, theologian, exile and 
man who proved that one Bishop 

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with a good argument can indeed 
stand against an empire. 

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St Athanasius was born in the 
year 296 in Alexandria. 

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Just Athanasius. 
Alexandria was a place of 

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libraries, lecture halls, 
philosophers, mathematicians, 

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but also a heated debates and 
theological ferment. 

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It was in this environment 
Athanasius received his 

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education and 1st encountered 
the Christian faith in its 

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richness and complexity. 
By the time he became a Deacon 

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under Bishop Alexander, he had 
already possessed a sharp mind 

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and clear theological instinct, 
qualities he would become 

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essential very soon. 
For in 325 AD the young Deacon 

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accompanied Alexandra to what 
was arguably arguably the most 

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consequential gathering of 
bishops ever assembled, the 

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Council of Nicaea. 
Nicaea was no small gathering. 

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It was an an emergency meeting 
of the entire church, convened 

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to settle a theological crisis. 
Arianism Arias, a presbyter from

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Alexandria, also had proposed 
that Christ was not fully 

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divine, but rather the highest 
of God's creatures. 

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There was when he was not, Arias
famously said, presenting the 

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view that, though 
philosophically tidy, threatened

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to unmake Christian proclamation
from the inside out. 

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If the sun were not truly God, 
how could he save? 

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How could the incarnation be 
more than a pious metaphor? 

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And what would become of worship
offered worship offered to 

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Christ? 
Athanasius, even as a young man,

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saw the stakes with clarity. 
The Council, of course, produced

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what we now call the Nicean 
Creed, affirming that the Son is

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of 1 substance with the Father. 
But while many bishops accepted 

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the Creed, some did so 
reluctantly, and many more found

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ways to reinterpret it once he 
they returned home. 

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The controversy was just 
beginning. 

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Three years later, when Bishop 
Alexandra Alexander died, 

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Athanasius, still young, was 
chosen to succeed him as Bishop 

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of Alexandria. 
This would not be a quiet 

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pastorate. 
Over the next decades, 

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Athanasius became the chief 
defender of Nicean orthodoxy, a 

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task that earned him admiration 
in the long arc of history, but 

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not so great in the short term 
as it earned him exile. 5 

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separate exiles. 
Emperors found him inconvenient,

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rival bishops found him 
relentless, and theologians of a

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more compromising disposition 
found him impossible. 

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Athanasius was not merely 
stubborn, he was principled, 

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perceptive, and utterly 
convinced that the truth of the 

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Gospel depended on maintaining 
the full divinity of Christ. 

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He saw with clarity that if 
Christ were not fully God, 

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Christianity would unravel at 
it's core. 

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Salvation would become uncertain
and sacraments would become 

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empty signs and the Church's 
worship would lose it's anchor. 

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He was willing to be exiled 
rather than allow the 

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unravelling to begin. 
It would be a mistake, though, 

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to imagine an Athanasius as 
purely A combative figure. 

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His enduring legacy lies equally
in his positive theological 

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contributions. 
One of the treasures of 

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Christian literature is his 
early work on the Incarnation. 

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In it, Athanasius unfolds a 
vision of salvation that is both

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intellectually rigorous and 
spiritually luminous. 

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It was once said that is a work 
so deep and theologically rich 

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that only Paul Golf has a 
faintest idea what he's talking 

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about in it. 
In it, he argues that the Word 

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becomes flesh, not as dramatic 
gesture or as a temporary 

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necessity, but to heal and 
restore human nature itself. 

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His most famous line, which is 
still quite today, is he became 

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human that we might become 
divine. 

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It is Asanasius's way of 
describing the transformation 

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made possible by Christ's 
incarnation. 

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It in fact represents A profound
vision of Christian life, one in

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which the incarnation is not 
merely the mechanism of 

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salvation, but it's very 
substance. 

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That's not my words, but what 
brilliant sentence. 

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So I had to see the mechanism of
salvation. 

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So not the mechanism of 
salvation, but it's very 

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substance. 
It's also worth noting here that

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the word used to become divine 
is in that sentence is theosis, 

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which means union with God. 
So it's not as heretic as it as 

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it as it sounds to the modern 
reader. 

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His pastoral sensitivity appears
also in his friendships with 

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monastery communities of Egypt. 
During his exiles, Athanasius 

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sought refuge among the desert 
monks, who in turn found him a 

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spirit found in him, a spiritual
ally. 

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His biography of Saint Anthony 
the Great Hermit played a 

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crucial role in bringing 
monastic spirituality to the 

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wider Christian world. 
Through his work, Athanasius 

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shaped not only doctrine but 
also devotion, not only not only

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the Church's theology, but its 
spirituality, spirituality and 

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its imagination. 
His influence did not end with 

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his own lifetime. 
The Cappadocia Fathers, Basil 

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the Great, Gregory of Nicaea, 
spelled slightly different 

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Nicaea and Gregory of Nasiensis 
built upon the foundation he 

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laid, developing the full 
articulation of the Trinitarian 

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doctrine that would become the 
guide for the Church thereafter.

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Athanasius was not Athanasius 
was not the architect of that 

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doctrine alone, but he provided 
its essential cornerstone, the 

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insistence that the sun shares 
fully and eternally in the 

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divine essence. 
Without that conviction, the 

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later flowering of Trinitarian 
theology would have been 

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impossible. 
We sometimes speak of historical

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figures as if they belong safely
in the past. 

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Athanasius belongs to us still. 
His word was full of political. 

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His world was full of political 
pressures, tempting compromises 

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and theological half measures, 
temptations not unfamiliar in 

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any age. 
He reminds us that truth is 

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worth defending even when it is 
unfashionable, and that the 

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heart of the Christian faith 
cannot be reshaped to suit the 

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spirit of the times, and that 
courage in theology is as 

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necessary as clarity. 
With Athanasius, theology was 

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not merely an academic exercise,
but a matter of life, worship, 

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and salvation. 
By the time he died in 373, the 

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tide had turned decisively. 
The Nicene Creed, which he had 

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defended with with such 
relentless passion, became the 

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faith of the of the universal 
Church. 

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Later councils confirmed that 
Athanasius had fought what what 

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later confirmed what Athanasius 
had fought for. 

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Christ is fully God, fully human
and inseparably united, and 

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inseparably united in his 
identity as a Saviour of the 

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world. 
Very. 

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Good, nice one, thank you. 
Alice and I were joking as well.

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There's this sort of semi 
apocryphal story about Father 

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Christmas at the Council of 
Nicaea punching out areas in a 

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in a punch up. 
So we say like celebrate 

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Christmas, punch a heretic. 
Also you, you, you might. 

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So Gregory Vanessa Basil of 
Caesarea, super important, 

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really fantastic. 
Like read them. 

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But later on in the manual, I 
think it's in this version. 

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It might have been in the later 
version. 

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We put in one exercise on Saint 
Macrina the elder, who is the 

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elder sister of both of both 
Basil and Gregory and their 

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writings about her basically 
said, look, all of our thinking 

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comes from her. 
So she she speaks to us through 

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them as a key early church 
Apostolic thinker woman St. 

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So we we understand her thinking
through them and it it is it's 

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phenomenal. 
So yeah, thank you, Tim. 

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And yeah, I don't know really 
how to respond to your comment 

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about understanding Athanasius, 
but I think that I think what I 

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take, what I take from reading 
Athanasius, even if you just 

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read the Against the Gentiles 
first, this first defence, you 

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know, he goes through describing
the Gospel in an apologetics 

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kind of way with the Jews, with 
the Gentiles, and he kind of 

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goes down these different 
arguments. 

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And it's just if you if you read
that, one of the things that's 

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really conspicuous is how alien 
it reads to contemporary modern 

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Christian conversation. 
Like what he focuses on is just 

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so completely different and also
his kind of conclude it towards 

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the end, he starts going into 
well, if if nobody, if still you

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don't agree with me. 
And he said, and by the way, 

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most of the world is already 
converted. 

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It's interesting. 
He puts pretty much everybody 

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already believes in Jesus. 
So I'm talking to the few of you

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who don't. 
And and if you still aren't 

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persuaded by any of my 
arguments, the bottom line is 

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how can you get over the fact 
that none of our people are 

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afraid of death? 
And this is his really his kind 

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of ultimate argument. 
He says none of none of our 

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people are afraid of death. 
He said this is the most 

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unnatural thing. 
All people are afraid of death. 

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All animals are afraid of death.
Everyone's afraid of death. 

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It's like the thing to be afraid
of. 

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How is it that any of our people
could possibly not be afraid of 

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death, even to the point they 
get thrown to the lions or 

231
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whatever else, and they just 
don't care? 

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And for him, this was the the 
strongest and most definitive 

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proof of the resurrection of 
Jesus from the dead. 

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He said, how can they not be 
afraid of death if Jesus hasn't 

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risen from the dead, It can only
be because there isn't, there 

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isn't crisis in them. 
So from the, from an apologetics

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point of view, I really like 
that because he also passes 

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through well, you know, OK, if 
you can't get on board with all 

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the healing and the miracles and
stuff that just happens 

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everywhere the cross is 
preached, then let me just bring

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00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,560
it down to something you can 
relate to. 

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Everyone's scared of death 
except our people. 

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Put that in your pipe and smoke 
it. 

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So I, I kind of like that. 
So I do, I do recommend reading,

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reading him. 
So what I'm going to do tonight,

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I'm going to talk for a bit 
before we get back into kind of 

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discussing in groups. 
And I think this is a really 

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it's a really pivotal lecture 
and chapter in the course. 

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I'm just looking at the the 
outcomes here. 

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00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,000
I had in mind a direction to go 
tonight, but we might go to in a

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00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,640
slightly different one. 
I want to make sure that people 

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have the opportunity to ask the 
questions they want to ask. 

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00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,800
So either because actually a few
some of the best conversations 

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00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,880
I've had here have been at the 
end of the evening when most of 

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00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,000
the people have left and we've 
got into kind of, you know, 

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00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,840
we've, we've kind of continued. 
So, you know, do when we're in 

257
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,000
the groups as well, do wave me 
over to come round if you want, 

258
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,200
you want to ask. 
And then also please ask and 

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00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,160
we'll try and get through as 
much as we can in the in the 

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00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,800
session tonight. 
But just to frame the the 

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00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,800
takeaways for me, where I think 
the significance of this chapter

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00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:47,120
lies. 
If you recall in the in the 

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00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,680
lecture at the end, there's a 
question and I can't remember 

264
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,040
what the question was, but 
Baxter, he took the answer into 

265
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,800
what do you think Jesus feels 
when he hears moment by moment 

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00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,680
the Father say to him, you're my
beloved son in whom I'm well 

267
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,079
pleased. 
What does Jesus experience? 

268
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,839
The human Jesus, because he's 
still human now he's 

269
00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:14,520
irreversibly human. 
Do you think he's worried about 

270
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:15,839
anything? 
Do you think he's afraid of 

271
00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:17,520
anything? 
Do you think he's bothered by 

272
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,520
about the criticisms of the 
Pharisees or the, the, the 

273
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,960
concern that maybe the 
trajectory of, of history is not

274
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,160
going to go in the right 
direction or that he's going to 

275
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,040
lose a handle on everything? 
Do do you think that any of that

276
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,680
exists for him or within him at 
all? 

277
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,640
And of course, the answer is no.
The question what, what is it? 

278
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,840
You do feel Jesus is probably a 
question for prayer more than it

279
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:45,400
is for speculation, but the 
point is to say that Jesus 

280
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,520
emotional centre is the life 
that has been given to us in 

281
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,800
him. 
That is our power source. 

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00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,880
That is what we live from that 
that that is the mind of Christ 

283
00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,520
that has been shared with us and
mine doesn't just mean thoughts,

284
00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,960
It means the whole internal 
makeup of a person. 

285
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,760
The scripture says who's known 
the mind of the Lord that he has

286
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,400
instructed him. 
But we have the mind of Christ, 

287
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,840
not we will have, but we have 
it's not put forward into some 

288
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,480
future we'll we'll be able to 
understand everything it's 

289
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,320
saying. 
Jesus eternal centre of gravity 

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00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,760
has been put within us for us to
enjoy and access and live from. 

291
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,960
That's the Christian gospel. 
Not that we're trying to close 

292
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,960
close the gap with a legal 
fiction of some kind, but that 

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00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,040
God has come to us in Christ. 
And this is also the, the 

294
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,480
question that that came up 
towards the end about what do we

295
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,200
do when we're reading the 
Scripture, when we're reading 

296
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:39,800
the, when we're reading the Old 
Testament? 

297
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,800
Well, how, how does the New 
Testament read the Old 

298
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:44,200
Testament? 
Well, the New Testament authors 

299
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,360
fail every Bible hermeneutics 
class that you would put them 

300
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:49,400
through, by which I mean, if you
were to put the apostle Paul, 

301
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,920
John, Peter, Jude, whoever wrote
Hebrews, if you were to put them

302
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,760
into Trinity College 
hermeneutics, you know, how do 

303
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:58,600
you read the Bible interpretive 
class? 

304
00:18:58,600 --> 00:18:59,960
Every single one of them would 
fail. 

305
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,600
They break all of the rules 
according to contemporary Bible 

306
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,000
hermeneutics. 
How are we supposed to read the 

307
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,520
Bible? 
They completely throw that book 

308
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:13,080
out the window and that ought to
cause us to wake up and ask some

309
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,880
questions about, well, how do we
read it? 

310
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,760
Because if we, if we read it in 
a way that is not commensurate 

311
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,920
with the way they're reading it,
are we following in the 

312
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,200
Apostolic tradition or how or 
are we doing something else? 

313
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:31,480
And to me, you have the the New 
Testament, I forget who said it,

314
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,600
but in, in the past, God spoke 
to us in many ways. 

315
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,400
But now in these last days, he 
has spoken to us in the in his 

316
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,840
son. 
So this the son is the final 

317
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,640
word of the Father. 
He is the word of God and he's 

318
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:48,320
the final word of God. 
And actually he is the one who 

319
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,240
comes to the prophets who don't 
understand what they're saying 

320
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,320
according to Peter, but but in 
whom the spirit of Christ is 

321
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,040
pointing towards something. 
But now Christ has come. 

322
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,400
Every other vision has to die at
the feet of Jesus. 

323
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,480
There is nothing that. 
Can continue on without passing 

324
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,080
through the revelation of God in
Christ, his incarnation, his 

325
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,120
death, his resurrection, his 
ascension and his baptism of the

326
00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:15,960
world. 
Everything has to pass through 

327
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,160
that. 
If we're retaining anything that

328
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,160
hasn't passed through that, then
it's not Christian. 

329
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,280
But for it to be Christian, it 
passes through that revelation. 

330
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:28,120
So you get the Nicene Creed. 
Again, a comment from the from 

331
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:31,800
the lecture, the first line, I 
believe we believe in one God, 

332
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,240
the Father Almighty, not the 
Almighty Father. 

333
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,640
That's deliberate. 
It's not accidental. 

334
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,040
Every word is put there 
deliberately. 

335
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,800
The orders put there 
deliberately that the, the, the 

336
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:48,200
Nicene fathers took great pains 
to locate the fatherhood of God 

337
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,240
as this preeminent truth which 
is to infer the Trinity, right, 

338
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,480
The fatherhood of God and he is 
the Father Almighty. 

339
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,960
And how often we say we believe 
in God. 

340
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:02,080
What's the first thing we say 
about God? 

341
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,120
Well, God's all powerful often 
the first thing that people say.

342
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:08,040
It's the other way around. 
What is it about our thinking 

343
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,720
that pushes us towards power 
before it pushes us towards the 

344
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,160
revelation of fatherhood? 
The second point on that too is 

345
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:19,240
if we've first established with 
Jesus and his testimony to us 

346
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,920
that God is Father, what then 
does that? 

347
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,680
How then does that change and 
baptise and upgrade our 

348
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,960
understanding of what it even 
means to be powerful? 

349
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,720
What does Almighty look like 
when it's the Father Almighty 

350
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,520
rather than just the Almighty 
Almighty? 

351
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,520
How is the concept of Almighty 
baptised in the vision of the 

352
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,840
Father, Son and Spirit? 
And this is holiness. 

353
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:49,760
The holiness means to be a cut 
above and what I had in mind to 

354
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,200
do and I might do a little bit 
later is just try and map out on

355
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,200
the on the whiteboard how 
starting with an idea like 

356
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,640
holiness. 
How everything we believe about 

357
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,120
what holiness even means changes
through about 5 different levels

358
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:08,040
based on whether or not we agree
with Jesus about the revelation,

359
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,880
the revelation of his 
relationship with the Father. 

360
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,240
If we start from there versus if
we start with a a singular Aryan

361
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:20,440
God who creates Jesus, how that 
then changes the in the kind of 

362
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,840
the sequence of everything. 
So a big question, and I think 

363
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:30,720
this really is a crucial session
to address this is is this 

364
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,280
question of what what is Baxter 
says it a number of times. 

365
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,840
What is the hermeneutic? 
What is the way we understand 

366
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,560
how to read any of this stuff or
how to interpret anything? 

367
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,720
Like what, what is our framework
that enables us to do that And 

368
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,200
to to agree with the Nicene 
Fathers, we would strongly 

369
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:54,560
contend, is to say that the, the
hermeneutic is the revelation of

370
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,360
God in Christ, which is the 
triune God. 

371
00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:59,520
That's why we're talking about. 
This is the Trinitarian faith. 

372
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:03,800
That is the hermeneutic lens 
through which we read everything

373
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,600
else. 
So within that, if I might, I 

374
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,480
mean, Alice, we've known each 
other a long time, been friends 

375
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,240
for a long time and, and have 
have debated a lot. 

376
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,720
If I, if I might dive back to 
your bicycle image for a moment.

377
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:22,960
I, I am not trying to rebalance 
a bicycle like this. 

378
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,000
This course isn't trying to 
rebalance a bicycle because 

379
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,240
we've learnt too far in One 
Direction and we need to lean 

380
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,720
too far on the other. 
On the other way. 

381
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:36,240
I, I, I want to remove the road 
completely, right, because 

382
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,600
there's no Rd. 
He is the road, He is the way, 

383
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,440
right? 
And I think that we have the, 

384
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,960
the predestination free will 
question. 

385
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,400
I don't believe it's a truth 
intention. 

386
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,600
It's a fundamental corruption in
the, in Western theology. 

387
00:23:55,080 --> 00:24:01,720
And my proof of that would be 
this was not an issue for 1000 

388
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,280
years when the terms were 
different and the legal 

389
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,160
framework had not been brought 
in and introduced into the into 

390
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,880
the Christian story. 
It's just not there. 

391
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,680
You get it kind some stuff is 
there in Augustine. 

392
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,080
But again, we can, we can go 
into ways in which it's not in 

393
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:19,560
Augustine. 
And also we can go into ways in 

394
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,040
which Augustine has major 
problems with his, his reading, 

395
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:24,520
right. 
This is not new territory. 

396
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,520
It's kind of well won, well won 
territory. 

397
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,880
But I said some years ago, Grace
and I were preaching in an 

398
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,840
Anglican church in, in Saint, I 
think it's Saint Paul's in 

399
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,280
Weston Super Mare. 
And we used to do quite a lot 

400
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,480
there with the previous vicar 
Andrew Alden was there and pre 

401
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,040
COVID. 
And at the end the youth pastor 

402
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,160
came up and he said, well, you 
know, the I'm just not really, 

403
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,200
yeah, this whole predestination 
free will stuff a lot. 

404
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,920
I'm just a practitioner. 
I get on with it. 

405
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,680
You know, I'm not, I'm not kind 
of not really, you know, I don't

406
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,200
really want to have that kind of
discussion. 

407
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,320
And I said to him, you don't get
to say that you're a 

408
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,040
professional Christian, right? 
You set yourself up here as a 

409
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,560
teacher of the word. 
And these are not secondary 

410
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,680
issues. 
These are primary issues. 

411
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,120
They deal with the most 
essential tenets of what we 

412
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:13,600
believe. 
What is the nature of the 

413
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,760
gospel? 
What is the nature of salvation?

414
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,680
This is literally 101 
Christianity. 

415
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,880
It's not. 
It's not an ivory tower theology

416
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,040
conversation. 
And I said to him, don't you 

417
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,040
think that the failure of the 
Protestant church for 500 years 

418
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,440
to resolve this question, IE 
which side of the bike are you 

419
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,640
putting more weight on? 
Does the does the complete 

420
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,600
failure to resolve that using 
the same scriptures, claiming 

421
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,440
the same methodologies and yet 
unable to resolve that? 

422
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,520
Does that not tell you that 
there might be a problem with 

423
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,000
the bike? 
Not a problem with how much with

424
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,240
like where, where we're 
balancing? 

425
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,040
Is it not the grounds and the 
terms of our more that are more 

426
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,440
fundamental, the terms that 
we're, we're playing with, you 

427
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,120
know, the field that we're 
involved with? 

428
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,000
Is this not to say that that is 
where the problem lies? 

429
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,000
Because we can make all sorts of
assumptions about the ground 

430
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,640
that we're on and then come up 
with all sorts of different 

431
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,960
interpreting frameworks which 
might more or less approximate 

432
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,760
experience a little bit. 
Like if we believe that the sun 

433
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,640
goes around the Earth, we can 
look up at the stars and come up

434
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,840
with all kinds of complex 
mathematics to try and place 

435
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,840
what they're doing. 
And people did for hundreds and 

436
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,680
hundreds and hundreds of years 
arguing about we'll know what, 

437
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,240
How do we account for the fact 
that Pluto goes into retrograde?

438
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,880
It kind of goes forward and then
it goes backwards. 

439
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,400
How does that work, You know, 
and the failure to resolve that 

440
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,200
mathematically in the end gave 
way to a paradigm shift where 

441
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,680
somebody says, do you know what?
I guess it's Copernicus, right? 

442
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,280
Perhaps the earth goes around 
the sun. 

443
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:43,200
And if we get our, if we change 
the terms, does everything else 

444
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,480
suddenly resolve? 
Do our conundrums and our issues

445
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:53,160
resolve this? 
This course is based on the 100%

446
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,880
conviction that absolutely that 
is, that is the case. 

447
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,480
And it's, we, we sometimes talk 
about evangelising the 

448
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,760
foundation of the Western mind 
because the, the, the, the, the 

449
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,640
reformational thinking, which 
has many extraordinary and 

450
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,320
wonderful things in it, because 
it's, it's possible to do that 

451
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,920
even when you're not playing 
with a full deck. 

452
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,200
I mean, we do that all the time,
right? 

453
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:16,760
None of us is playing with a 
full deck. 

454
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,760
It doesn't mean that it 
invalidates everything, but it, 

455
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,040
but it doesn't mean at a certain
point we have to look back and 

456
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,800
say a foundation that is out of 
line will have a consequence on 

457
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,400
the building in the long run. 
And we want to see that 

458
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,760
foundation healed. 
And that's, that's a big part of

459
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,320
this conversation, right? 
Is, is seeing that foundation 

460
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:40,320
healed? 
So I, I think I'm, I'm often 

461
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:46,280
finding myself in conversation 
of sometimes debate with the, 

462
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,520
with the concept of tension or 
balance. 

463
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,480
You've heard me if you've been 
around here and paid any 

464
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,200
attention to me, which you 
probably haven't, But if you 

465
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,640
have and heard me on a Sunday 
morning, you know, I've, I, I, 

466
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,840
I've said, you know, balance is 
the favourite word of Bible 

467
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,960
believing Christians that never 
appears once in the Bible, 

468
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,800
right. 
So the concept of balance, I 

469
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,520
don't consider the I don't 
consider the cross to be an act 

470
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,440
of balance. 
It's not a balanced individual, 

471
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:13,520
you know, and so I often will 
hear people say things like, 

472
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,520
yes, you're saying God is love. 
We agree with that, Amen. 

473
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:17,480
We love that. 
That's good. 

474
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,800
But but also God is holy or 
they'll say, but also God is 

475
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,320
just as if God's holiness and 
his justice are in tension with 

476
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,240
his love. 
I complete this completely do 

477
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,240
not agree with that. 
Give me a chapter and verse on 

478
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,640
that one, right? 
It's that's not there. 

479
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,600
Also, it's strangely bipolar if 
we, if we begin with the 

480
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,320
doctrine of God, right, which is
what we're saying Christology, 

481
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,880
who is Jesus? 
How does this shape our thinking

482
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,040
about everything else? 
Because if he's the cornerstone 

483
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,520
and he's the capstone, the 
cornerstone is what sets the 

484
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,000
parameters for how you build and
the capstone is how you finish 

485
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,760
it off, right? 
So if he's the cornerstone, he 

486
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,560
gives us the he gives us the 
right angles and how we're 

487
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,640
building go back to go back to 
the right angles. 

488
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,080
If something is out of if a few 
degrees out, we go go back to 

489
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:14,400
the the start, who is Jesus? 
And if we suggest that there is 

490
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,840
somehow a tension of forces 
within God, right. 

491
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,880
So and this is how it often 
comes out implicitly or 

492
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,440
explicitly. 
God loves you, but he's also 

493
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,680
just therefore must punish sin. 
You heard that one? 

494
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,200
God is God loves you, but he's 
also just and must must punish 

495
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,840
sin. 
OK, so God must do something. 

496
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,800
Must he like must implies that 
there's a force that's superior 

497
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,040
to God that he's subordinate to.
So justice is God and not God, 

498
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,720
right? 
God is subordinate to justice. 

499
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,560
Or well, justice is just his 
nature. 

500
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,680
OK, so you're saying God has 
something that he wants to do, 

501
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,600
but his nature prevents him from
doing it. 

502
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,160
So his will and his nature are 
not in accordance with one 

503
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,240
another. 
Then he's in division against 

504
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,200
himself. 
Is the bipolar, schizophrenic 

505
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,720
God right in division against 
himself? 

506
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,600
At least the Calvinists are 
honest because they they 

507
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,640
recognise this problem. 
And the Calvinists say no, we we

508
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:08,920
don't believe God loves 
everybody. 

509
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,200
He loves some and he hates 
others and he does that before 

510
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,720
the foundation of the world. 
It has to be about him and not 

511
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,920
about us. 
Therefore, he has chosen to love

512
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,640
some and he's chosen to hate 
others. 

513
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,880
The reason he does that is 
because he wants to make both 

514
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,560
sides of his nature known. 
One side of his nature is 

515
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,160
loving, merciful and kind to the
other is wrathful, awesome, you 

516
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,400
know, obliterating nuclear 
Holocaust. 

517
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,160
And and he is going to torment 
some people in hell for eternity

518
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,760
because he wants to demonstrate 
that. 

519
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,160
And that's also what we're going
to worship God and thank him for

520
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,720
as well. 
If that sounds like a 

521
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,720
caricature, this is not a 
caricature. 

522
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,520
Go and read John Piper and read 
what he actually thinks. 

523
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,720
He actually believes this, 
actually believes and teaches 

524
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,360
this. 
It's not, I'm not I'm not saying

525
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:54,480
anything that he wouldn't get up
and say. 

526
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:55,920
Yeah, Amen. 
That's what that's what we 

527
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,960
believe because that's what the 
Bible teaches. 

528
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,000
It's not what the Bible teaches,
but that's what they think at 

529
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,680
least it's honest. 
And it says it's that it that 

530
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,080
it's consistent. 
It's saying, no, we don't 

531
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,720
believe in an all loving God. 
We believe in a limited loving 

532
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,360
God Calvinism the the Tulip 
limited atonement Tulip is a 

533
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,000
five points total depravity. 
That's the T unconditional 

534
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,200
election limited atonement 
irresistible grace and 

535
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:26,080
perseverance of the Saints. 
The L of Tulip says God is God's

536
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,200
love and the atonement of Christ
is only limited to son. 

537
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,400
It's limited to those He's 
choose, chosen to demonstrate 

538
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,600
his love in, everybody else has 
chosen to demonstrate his wrath 

539
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,680
in. 
And that's good because God's 

540
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,320
ways are higher than our ways, 
because He's holy and we need to

541
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,680
get with his programme. 
And you'll agree with Him in the

542
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,720
end. 
And in a million years from now,

543
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,920
when your unsaved friend, 
family, child, son, daughter, 

544
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,840
mother, father, children, 
whatever are burning in hell, 

545
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,720
you will be praising God and 
rejoicing with Him in his 

546
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,960
judgement over them. 
Because that's what it means to 

547
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,160
be a Christian. 
And if this sounds completely 

548
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,960
bananas, this is what huge 
sections of the Christian Church

549
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,600
not only implicitly believe, but
actually state in their faith 

550
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,000
statements. 
This is what they believe. 

551
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,120
John Piper explicitly believes 
this. 

552
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,640
Not implicitly, not like fudging
it. 

553
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,200
He actually believes it. 
A lot of people kind of pay lip 

554
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,080
service to it, but don't really 
believe it, right? 

555
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:21,600
Because it doesn't make any 
sense. 

556
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,080
It's too dissonant anyway. 
So they kind of say, well, yeah,

557
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,880
it's over there in an in an 
abstract sense. 

558
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,120
And then they do things like, 
well, of course, when we say 

559
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,880
hell, we don't really mean 
burning fire. 

560
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,640
We mean separation from God, 
right? 

561
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,320
You heard that one because we 
don't like the idea of God 

562
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,080
putting people in an oven for 
eternity with flames, because 

563
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,840
that just sounds a little bit 
too Hitlerish, right? 

564
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,280
No, no, it means separation from
God. 

565
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:49,120
It's to sanitise it a little bit
for for modern people, because 

566
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,600
the idea of Dante's Inferno 
doesn't work on modern people 

567
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,520
most of the time, maybe works on
mediaeval people who are used 

568
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,120
to, you know, tyrants and 
torture and all the rest, that 

569
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,080
they might be able to accept 
something like that about God. 

570
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,120
We can't accept that about him. 
So but we can't accept the idea 

571
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,440
of let's, we're going to just be
separated from God. 

572
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,880
OK, That doesn't, that doesn't 
sound quite so bad. 

573
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,600
That doesn't sound quite so much
like I'm going to stop listening

574
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:10,760
to anything you have to say. 
Now. 

575
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,000
I might continue to listen a 
little bit more or because 

576
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,600
separation from God, OK, well, 
that that's fairly abstract to 

577
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,160
me anyway. 
I don't know what it means to be

578
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,600
not separated from God. 
So separation from God. 

579
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,400
OK, fine. 
I'll listen to more of your 

580
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,800
gospel pitch. 
All right, so then we introduced

581
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,120
the idea of separation from God 
again, New Testament. 

582
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,000
Show me where the New Testament 
says Jesus comes to save us from

583
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,680
separation with God. 
Jesus died to save us from 

584
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,840
separation from hell, which is 
separation from God. 

585
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,280
Give me chapter and verse 
because all the guys who say 

586
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,440
this will say it saying with 
believing what the Bible says, 

587
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,200
but then give me chapter and 
verse. 

588
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,760
If you really think that, show 
me. 

589
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:53,400
So it's a it's a massaging of an
idea to make it a little bit 

590
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,000
more palatable. 
I mean, it's not really that 

591
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,040
much more palatable if you 
really take it seriously. 

592
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,120
But of course, most people don't
take it seriously because they 

593
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,400
get on with life and they say, 
like my friend in Saint Paul's, 

594
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,920
well, I don't want to think 
about that stuff. 

595
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,000
It's too complicated anyway. 
I just want to get on with the 

596
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,159
stuff. 
And and that's right, OK, if 

597
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:09,600
that's the best you've got, then
do that. 

598
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,960
Love people, you know, pray with
them, introduce them to Jesus, 

599
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,159
XYZ do that, do that stuff. 
The Aryans were doing that too 

600
00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:21,239
for hundreds of years, right? 
So when Augustine says the whole

601
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,080
world groaned under the weight 
of Aryanism, Augustine's 

602
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,840
analysis of the of the the 
church in the 100 years or so 

603
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,920
pre Nicaea was that the majority
of Christians were Aryan. 

604
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:33,920
They did not believe that Jesus 
was God. 

605
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,199
They thought he was a created 
being. 

606
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:39,280
And Augustine's angle on this 
was this is a this was a tragedy

607
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,639
that needed the Nicene fathers 
that needed Athanasia so that 

608
00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:46,600
others like him, Hillary of 
Pasha, to come along and really 

609
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,920
smash this. 
And they they didn't come and 

610
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,400
make peace with it. 
They didn't sit down with the 

611
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,440
areas and say, yeah, we we do 
see your point there. 

612
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,040
Let's work out a way that we can
have your version and our 

613
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,040
version and kind of combine them
together. 

614
00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:01,320
Father Christmas literally 
lamped the guy, right, literally

615
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,120
socked him in the face. 
This was not this was not like 

616
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,320
something that they saw that now
we can critique that too, right,

617
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:12,840
but but there's AI think it's 
Athanasius is called the hammer 

618
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,080
of the Aryans, the hammer of the
Aryans, right. 

619
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,240
This is not like nice, nicely 
nice origin of Alexandria was 

620
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:25,160
called origin Adamantius. 
You know, the Iron Man is what 

621
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,600
Adamantius means. 
The Iron Man, he'd completely 

622
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,400
invincible because he would just
wade into any fight anytime, 

623
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:33,960
anywhere. 
And that's what got him into so 

624
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,440
much trouble. 
They were, they were on the 

625
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:38,880
front foot, not on the back 
foot. 

626
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,400
And they understood what was at 
stake and they understood what 

627
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,120
was at stake with the from the 
perspective of, you know, a 

628
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,480
couple of 100 years of or close 
to a couple of 100 years of 

629
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,280
church history and what they 
already perceived as having of 

630
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,840
the corruption that had come in 
and what was being lost in that 

631
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,400
conversation. 
And that's why they put a stake 

632
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,440
in the ground and said, we are 
going to fight for this. 

633
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,320
And it was, I think Nicea was 
not a nice place to be. 

634
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,040
I don't think it was a friendly 
powwow. 

635
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,840
I think it was pretty tense. 
I mean, you sometimes see these 

636
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,840
these pictures of people like 
parliaments around the world and

637
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,280
they explode into punch UPS, 
right? 

638
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,960
And we think, wow, you know, 
Bulgarian, I'm probably throwing

639
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,240
them under the bus because it 
wasn't them. 

640
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,840
Someone sorry, Bulgaria. 
Some you sometimes see these 

641
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,000
parliaments and they and you 
know, they they're like throwing

642
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,360
punches. 
And I mean, our parliament gets 

643
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,640
close to it, but because they 
get, they get taught in private 

644
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,880
school how to do it, you know, 
with rhetoric instead. 

645
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,160
But I mean, I guess maybe in the
olden days they do a duel. 

646
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:42,600
But the point is nice. 
Nicaea was not a a safe place to

647
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,840
be walking around. 
This was everything was at stake

648
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,960
in this conversation. 
And we can even critique whether

649
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,320
they even did everything 
perfectly right. 

650
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,360
So I'm not trying to say they 
did even everything perfectly, 

651
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,760
but they gave us, they gave us 
Orthodox Christianity and they 

652
00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,360
also gave us the Bible, by the 
way. 

653
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,400
So it's the same people who are 
deciding on the Nicene Creed are

654
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,280
the ones who are deciding even 
what the Bible is. 

655
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,520
So it's not like the Bible 
versus Nicaea, which sometimes 

656
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,480
people will say, oh, we just 
want to go back to the Bible. 

657
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,400
Look, the same process that gave
you the Bible gave you Nicaea. 

658
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,600
So you can't really take the one
and not the other and pretend 

659
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,920
like you're being Christian. 
I mean, you can you can say 

660
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,160
you're being something else, but
you know, to suggest that you 

661
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,360
can somehow reverse the Nicene 
discussion and get to something 

662
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,160
that's more true by just looking
at the Bible completely 

663
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:31,760
nonsensical. 
It's like people who say that 

664
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,920
about the apostle Paul as well. 
Well, we can. 

665
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,400
We just want to do deal with 
Jesus and not with Paul because 

666
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,000
we don't like some of the stuff 
that Paul said. 

667
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,400
The chances are the stuff you 
don't like is because of bad 

668
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,840
translation. 
But even that that aside, you 

669
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:49,040
know, that like the Gospel of 
Luke is written by Luke, who 

670
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,680
wrote Acts, who was Paul's like 
assistant, you know, in his 

671
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,640
Apostolic team. 
And Luke saw the content 

672
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,320
continuation from the gospel 
into the book of Acts and into 

673
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,120
Paul's writings. 
Like these guys did not see any 

674
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,840
conflict whatsoever between what
Paul was preaching and teaching 

675
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,120
and what's present in the 
gospels. 

676
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,840
They didn't see that conflict. 
And they're also the ones 

677
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,720
responsible for giving us the 
gospels in general terms. 

678
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,640
So the idea that we can access 
by going to the gospel, 

679
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,000
something that is unaffected by,
you know, the later discussion, 

680
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,280
that's not the Christian 
history. 

681
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:25,680
It's not that we, we inherit 
that tradition, Sola scriptura, 

682
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,880
the noble idea that you can just
read the Bible by itself doesn't

683
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,040
exist. 
You can't read it by itself. 

684
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,400
The fact that it's a Bible at 
all means it's not by itself. 

685
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,600
And that's not a, that's not a 
bug, that's a feature, right? 

686
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,160
It's supposed to be that way 
because this is supposed to be 

687
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,880
works out in dialogue in the 
communion of Saints. 

688
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,360
This is part of what the church 
is. 

689
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,560
That's part of what the legacy 
in the history of the church is.

690
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,720
Our problem is we were joking. 
Malcolm and I were joking a bit 

691
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:53,000
earlier. 
The problem with much Protestant

692
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,120
theology is that the history of 
Christian theology goes Jesus, 

693
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,320
John and Peter, Paul, maybe 
small brackets or footnote 

694
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,280
Augustine and then Martin 
Luther. 

695
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,240
And that's the that's the story 
of Protestant theology. 

696
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:08,840
And then, you know, we kind of 
pick it up from there. 

697
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,920
Pentecostals are even worse 
because it basically goes Jesus 

698
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,320
book of Acts, William Seymour, 
like 1900. 

699
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,240
You know, they erase even more 
of the church history, which I 

700
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:22,400
said to a good Pentecostal 
friend of mine who said when we 

701
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,960
were talking about penal 
substitution and when after he 

702
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,200
could no longer answer any of 
the points I was giving to him, 

703
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,760
said to me, I guess I just can't
believe that God would have 

704
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,360
allowed us to get it wrong for 
so long. 

705
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:34,520
And I said, what are you talking
about? 

706
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,720
You're a Pentecostal. 
You believe God let us get it 

707
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:39,000
wrong for 1800 years before you 
guys came along. 

708
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,480
I mean, what are you talking 
about? 

709
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,960
You know, and it makes me feel 
like there's that part in 

710
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,800
Corinthians where Paul says, did
the word of God come to you only

711
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,040
or did it only come from you? 
Where did you get this idea in 

712
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,200
this sort of closed echo chamber
type conversation? 

713
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,560
So we're, we're looking back, 
what why is it that to the 

714
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,320
Niceans, the Nicean fathers, the
question of who is God? 

715
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,920
Why is this so fundamental? 
Because they understood that 

716
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:08,800
changes the nature of everything
else. 

717
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:15,120
It's not we, we, we don't have 
this like bipolar thing where, 

718
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,920
OK, God's love on this side and 
he's just on this side. 

719
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,480
That's very that's to reduce God
to a human level. 

720
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,360
And that's to reduce God to the 
level of a human judge, where 

721
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,640
you say, well, OK. 
The judge might look and say, 

722
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,240
well, I'm compassionate on you 
because I can see you had a bit 

723
00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:31,520
of a bad start in life and you 
had these issues and that issue.

724
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:32,960
So, you know, and it's your 
first offence. 

725
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,000
So we want to go a bit lenient 
and all the rest. 

726
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,800
But the law is the law, you 
know, and my job is to serve the

727
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,800
law and I have to execute that. 
And I also have a responsibility

728
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,800
for reparations to the family 
who you robbed. 

729
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,920
And you know, and we have a 
responsibility to maintain 

730
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:47,520
social order. 
And I have to do these things as

731
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,240
well. 
So I'm going to still have to 

732
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,800
give you a custodial sentence 
or, but you know, I'll be 

733
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,680
slightly lenient here, but over 
here, I'm not going to be, or 

734
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,240
it's your third offence. 
No, no more leniency for you. 

735
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:58,920
You're getting the full whack, 
right? 

736
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:02,680
This is to reduce God to our 
human conceptualizations of 

737
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,080
justice. 
We have an intuition of what 

738
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,080
justice is, which is conditioned
by our culture. 

739
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,440
We layer that onto God and we 
say, well, if God is just, 

740
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,080
that's what it means to be just 
instead of doing the Christian 

741
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,520
thing, which is to say, what is 
the character of God as revealed

742
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,480
in Jesus? 
What is the life that Jesus has 

743
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,800
that he has shared with us? 
And based on the world 

744
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,120
transforming effect of that 
life, how do our ideas of 

745
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,400
justice, holiness, goodness, all
these other things, how do they 

746
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,240
need to to be recapitulated, to 
be brought back into the hedge 

747
00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:37,640
of Christ? 
How, what do we need to repent 

748
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,000
from about those things? 
Metanoia, a transformation of 

749
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,400
the mind that's saying, OK, we 
used to think XYZ and now we 

750
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,040
realise that we've now we have 
come to the cross. 

751
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,960
Those ideas, they have to die 
and maybe they get resurrected 

752
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,680
or get processed through the 
cross, but we cannot remain the 

753
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,720
same as we were before we came 
there. 

754
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,840
And this is this is the vision 
to see the resurrection of all 

755
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,520
things in the person of Jesus. 
Jesus, forgive me. 

756
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,120
You gave me the bicycle analogy.
I know we could go there, right?

757
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,040
Jesus does not ride a bicycle, 
right? 

758
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,880
The way of Jesus being with his 
Father is not a balance between 

759
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,800
the the initiation of the Father
and Jesus's own effort. 

760
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:21,600
That's not the way of Jesus 
being. 

761
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,080
If it's not the way of Jesus 
being, it is not the Christian 

762
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,040
life, because the Christian life
is. 

763
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,360
Unless you eat my flesh and 
drink my blood, you have no part

764
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:31,840
in me. 
Right? 

765
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,720
It's not. 
Again, I've said before, Jesus 

766
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:36,000
doesn't want you to be a 
follower. 

767
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,400
I sometimes upset people 
deliberately because it gets 

768
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:39,240
them to pay attention. 
Right. 

769
00:42:39,720 --> 00:42:43,600
I'll go travel somewhere and 
I'll say I'm here to tell you 

770
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,960
stop following Jesus. 
And then they're like, what? 

771
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,160
They freak out. 
Yeah, stop following Jesus. 

772
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,320
You need to stop right now. 
How long have you been a 

773
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:52,160
Christian? 
20 years. 

774
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,040
Man, you should have stopped 
following Jesus a long time ago.

775
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,040
Because the thing about 
followers is followers. 

776
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,960
Followers can lag behind, 
Followers can get distracted, 

777
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,600
they can take a wrong turn. 
Followers can run ahead. 

778
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:08,600
Followers can do all these sorts
of things. 

779
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,800
Trying to copy the Messiah, 
trying to emulate him when he'd 

780
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,480
said, look, eat my flesh and 
drink my blood, don't follow me.

781
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,600
The purpose of following is so 
that they followed him, so that 

782
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,720
their hearts could burn long 
enough that they could trust him

783
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,040
when he said eat my flesh and 
drink my blood and they could 

784
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,320
think. 
Even though he sounds like a 

785
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,560
complete nut case, we have to go
with it, right. 

786
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,120
So the purpose of following is 
to give you a bit of an on ramp 

787
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,840
to introduce you to Jesus so you
can hang around for him, with 

788
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,840
him for a bit so you can 
experience what he's like and 

789
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,000
think, yeah, OK, I think I could
trust him to go a little bit 

790
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:45,920
further. 
So then when he says the really 

791
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,120
inflammatory stuff like eat my 
flesh and drink my blood, you're

792
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,280
actually able to say with Peter,
where else can we go? 

793
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,160
You have the words of eternal 
life. 

794
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,120
The problem in the, to me, big 
problem in the Western 

795
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,800
conversation, you know, Tim 
alluded to the, the, the concept

796
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:08,320
of theosis, it as a deification 
to be reconstituted into the 

797
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,920
nature of God, but without being
God, right. 

798
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:15,200
This is the, this is the early 
church's witness of what the 

799
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,960
what salvation is all about. 
That has been always completely 

800
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,320
eliminated from the discussion. 
And So what we're left with is 

801
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,880
behavioural management, and then
later on we're left with mind 

802
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,920
management, like doctrinal 
management, you know, thinking 

803
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,440
the right thoughts and doing the
right things. 

804
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,120
Follow Jesus, emulate him, copy 
him. 

805
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,840
He's a good example for you. 
Jesus is not an example for 

806
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,520
anyone. 
He's the Lamb of God who takes 

807
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,800
away the sin of the world, not 
an example. 

808
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,280
Which isn't to say we don't see 
things in him that we learn from

809
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,240
and think, OK, yeah, we can do 
that. 

810
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,800
But he he puts it this way, do 
unto others as you would have 

811
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,960
them do unto you. 
Well, where's the example There.

812
00:44:58,240 --> 00:44:59,720
I thought I'm supposed to do 
what you're doing. 

813
00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:01,400
Jesus. 
If I'm supposed to follow your 

814
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:02,440
teachings. 
Yeah. 

815
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,520
Well, I'm telling you, do to 
other people what you want them 

816
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,840
to do to you. 
Which puts you at the centre of 

817
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,040
gravity in that right. 
How do you how do you want 

818
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,160
people to treat you? 
That's how you should treat 

819
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,600
them. 
Well, how do I follow that? 

820
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,120
You can't. 
There's no formula to follow in 

821
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,320
that statement. 
What there is, is OK. 

822
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,360
How do I want them to treat me? 
I don't know. 

823
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,280
Because I'm a mess on the 
inside. 

824
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:34,160
Because in me is all of my, all 
of my hang ups, all of my fears,

825
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,480
all of my go away from me, Lord,
because I'm a sinful man. 

826
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,400
Peter's first words to Jesus, 
right? 

827
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,320
Or second words to Jesus, all of
that stuff is there. 

828
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,840
Isolation, separation, shame, 
arm's length, self hatred, 

829
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,040
addiction, all of those things 
that bury the real me under them

830
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,200
or that I hide behind. 
How do I relate to others out of

831
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,800
that? 
I can't unless I know the love 

832
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:58,360
of God. 
Right. 

833
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,840
And we love because he first 
loved us so that the the love of

834
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:07,200
God as we know the love of God. 
Then do unto others as you'd 

835
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,160
have them do unto you. 
We don't need anyone to explain 

836
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:11,760
it to you, right? 
Of course. 

837
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:12,920
Yeah. 
Do unto others as you'd have 

838
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,240
them do unto you. 
I know the love of God, growing 

839
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:19,400
in the love of God, experiencing
it, seeking to allow everything 

840
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,080
in my life to reorient around 
that. 

841
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,720
And therefore, OK, it kind of 
starts to become obvious. 

842
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,000
What would Jesus do? 
You don't need a little band, 

843
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:29,040
right? 
You have the risen Christ in 

844
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,600
you, working with you and 
through you and overflowing that

845
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,000
love. 
Now, to me, that's not a 

846
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,600
balance, right? 
That's not how much of it is 

847
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,200
Jesus and how much of it is me? 
And do I need to put equal 

848
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,720
weight on both sides so the bike
doesn't fall over to me? 

849
00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:45,640
That is, my side is dead and 
buried in the ground. 

850
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:50,760
It's no longer I who live. 
Is Christ living in me, in fact,

851
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,120
Christ living through me. 
Paul says I struggle with all 

852
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,240
the divine energy that so 
powerfully works within me. 

853
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,720
Same word he uses when he talks 
about prayer later on in 

854
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:01,840
Colossians. 
Our dear brother Epaphras is 

855
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,120
always wrestling in prayer for 
you. 

856
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,080
It's the same word struggling in
prayer. 

857
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,000
Same concept. 
He's not like, I'm really trying

858
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,320
to work up a revival egg and lay
that egg, you know, praying 

859
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,520
really, really, really hard, 
shouting and wailing, all of 

860
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,960
that. 
He's like problem for poor old 

861
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,240
Patras. 
He can't stop praying. 

862
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,320
Guy keeps trying to lie down and
going to sleep and he's so 

863
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,360
blasted by the Holy Spirit. 
He keeps praying for you. 

864
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:24,320
That's what Paul's talking 
about. 

865
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:26,520
And he's saying that's what it's
like for me. 

866
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:30,680
I'm, I just, I've got so much of
the energy, the divine energy of

867
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,320
God working through me, which is
his love, by the way, even 

868
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,240
William Seymour said that. 
What is William Seymour, by the 

869
00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:38,080
way, founder of the Pentecostal 
movement? 

870
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,080
He said, what is the Pentecostal
power? 

871
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,000
It is nothing other than the 
love of God. 

872
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:44,600
It does not come with the love 
of God. 

873
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,920
It is a counterfeit fire. 
Father of Pentecostalism. 

874
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,280
It's only the love of God. 
That's it. 

875
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,840
It's not anything else. 
He understood that. 

876
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,280
So when Paul saying I struggle 
with all the energy of God 

877
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,600
that's so powerfully works 
within me, he's saying I am so 

878
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:02,040
strung out on what it's like to 
have even a little bit of access

879
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,640
to Jesus's internal world that I
can't stop preaching the message

880
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,480
because it's the message 
preaching me. 

881
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,760
Jesus is the message. 
I am the overflow of his 

882
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,280
message. 
He spoke and gave me life, 

883
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:16,640
right? 
The message is preaching me. 

884
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:17,920
It's not me preaching the 
message. 

885
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:24,160
This is union. 
It's to say not what must I do 

886
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,720
to be saved or how do I locate 
myself in the right in the right

887
00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:30,920
box, or how do I being in the 
right box? 

888
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,720
How do I get my ducks in a row 
so that now I'm in, I can learn 

889
00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:39,880
how to do it properly? 
It's to Take Me Out of the 

890
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:41,880
equation altogether. 
That's what Watchman Lee said, 

891
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,560
great father of the Chinese 
church, modern Chinese church. 

892
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,880
God deals with every problem in 
your life by taking you out of 

893
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,400
the way and replacing you with 
Jesus. 

894
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:52,880
That's the good angle on 
substitution. 

895
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,120
That's the substitution bit. 
It's just not a penal 

896
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,240
substitution. 
It's it's an ontological 

897
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:00,000
substitution, a substitution of 
being. 

898
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,840
He becomes what we are so that 
we can be what he is, the 

899
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,720
Athanasian Creed. 
Now why? 

900
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,800
If Jesus is just a created 
being, he cannot do that. 

901
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,680
If Jesus is a created being, He 
can give us the highest order of

902
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,400
creation, but he cannot give us 
the divine life. 

903
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,280
The divine life is still behind 
an impenetrable veil. 

904
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,280
What is the mind of God really 
like? 

905
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,160
Well, it's not it we we see some
reflection of it in Jesus, but 

906
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,240
we don't see the substance of it
in Jesus. 

907
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:32,440
The Nicene Fathers, he is of one
being 1 substance, 1 essence 

908
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,640
with the Father. 
And later on Constantinople they

909
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,240
added language to confirm that 
that was also true of the Holy 

910
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:43,720
Spirit because that wasn't the 
the biggest focus in Nicaea. 

911
00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:47,400
So they, the kind of Nicaea Part
2 included more sections on the 

912
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:52,160
Holy Spirit in the same way. 
So what they're showing us is 

913
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,480
this, and this is Athanasius. 
He's saying look, our problem is

914
00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:01,240
by initiating this cosmological 
catastrophe called the fall, we 

915
00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:04,840
have introduced death, 
dissolution and non being into 

916
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,960
the equation of the universe. 
And our problem is we are now 

917
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,320
unravelling and dissolving away 
into nothingness. 

918
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,080
How does God solve this problem?
By taking his indestructible 

919
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:20,120
life and making it become flesh,
placing it in human flesh, flesh

920
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,120
being the bad word for humanity,
right. 

921
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,680
And we looked at that last time,
not anthropos meaning man, sarks

922
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,520
meaning flesh. 
The word became flesh. 

923
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,160
God united his indestructible 
indissoluble life with humanity.

924
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:39,680
That's that's our basis for 
saying nothing can separate us 

925
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,360
from the love of God. 
It's not the basis of because 

926
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,720
we've prayed the right prayer or
done the right thing or 

927
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,760
participated sacramentally in 
the right process, we now have 

928
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:50,960
qualified to say nothing can 
separate us from the love of 

929
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,040
God. 
It's to say because of Jesus, 

930
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,480
who he is, his nature even 
before what he's done, it's to 

931
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,000
say who he is. 
It matters who he is. 

932
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,560
It matters that He is the 
eternal Son of the Father, who 

933
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,680
always has been the eternal Son 
of the Father, because if that's

934
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,120
who He is, then when he becomes 
flesh, he brings all of the 

935
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:14,640
fullness of that triune life 
with Him. 

936
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,040
And what does the New Testament 
say? 

937
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,520
In Christ all the fullness of 
the Godhead dwells in bodily 

938
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,720
form, and you have been given 
fullness in Him. 

939
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,800
So it's because He is the 
Creator. 

940
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:29,360
To go back to our last session, 
we see any discussion in the New

941
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,120
Testament in the letters or the 
Gospels, especially John, the 

942
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,760
Synoptics. 
It's still there, but it's, you 

943
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,760
know, a little more 
pragmatically focused. 

944
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:44,280
But the Gospel of John Paul's 
writings, we start with he's 

945
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,080
some some iteration of he is the
creator and sustainer of 

946
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,440
everything. 
So going back to the lecture, 

947
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,480
and I'll push it back to the 
tables in in just a moment. 

948
00:51:53,720 --> 00:51:57,400
So going back to the lecture, 
Baxter made the point which he 

949
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,960
and I have talked about a lot of
his friend who got very angry 

950
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,080
with him and said, you can't, 
you can't just go around saying 

951
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,440
to everybody that they're that 
they're children of God and that

952
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,520
they're they're included in him 
already. 

953
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,680
You don't know whether they've 
believed in repented of their 

954
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,680
sin and all the rest and back 
says, OK, so tell us before 

955
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:17,520
they've done all that. 
What is the nature of God's 

956
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,880
relationship with them? 
And he just said categorically, 

957
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,880
well, this is a judge. 
He becomes Father after you've 

958
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,480
done XYZ, you know, after you've
believed the right thing, then 

959
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,200
he becomes Father because that's
what it means to be adopted, 

960
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:30,360
right? 
In that, in that way of 

961
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,880
thinking. 
But nice here starts with 

962
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,800
Father. 
But the fundamental truth of 

963
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,240
God's being is Father because 
there never was a time when he 

964
00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:43,600
was not father, because there 
was never, there never was a 

965
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,160
time when the Son was not the 
Son. 

966
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,000
He didn't become the Father when
he created the Son. 

967
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,640
The Son is eternally begotten, 
meaning the Son, the Son's 

968
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,040
identity as a son. 
Think, if you think about it 

969
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,480
this way, the Son's identity as 
son is to infer the Father, 

970
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:01,720
right? 
You don't get the Son without 

971
00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:05,440
the Father because to say Son 
means there's a Father and to 

972
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,600
say Father means there's a son 
or child. 

973
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,720
It's not gendered, right? 
And we could, I'm not trying to 

974
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,360
do the gender thing tonight. 
We could use either, but just 

975
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:15,640
keep the, the, the male language
for a moment. 

976
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:20,000
If you can go with me on it, to 
say father is to infer a child 

977
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,040
and to say child is to infer the
parent. 

978
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:30,000
So in and this is there's one of
these other issues as cropped up

979
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,200
called the eternal subordination
of the Son, where OK, the Son 

980
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,880
will always be subject to the 
Father, like secondary to the 

981
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,040
Father, which is also another 
subtle heresy. 

982
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,160
But if you think about it this 
way, it's impossible for the 

983
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,360
Father to be the Father without 
the Son, because if the Son 

984
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:45,880
isn't there, he's not Father 
anymore, right? 

985
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:49,400
Be something else. 
And it's impossible for the Son 

986
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,280
to be the Son without the Father
because to say the Son infers 

987
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,000
the Father. 
So when you say the name of 

988
00:53:55,000 --> 00:54:00,880
Jesus, the inferences, the name 
of God is Father, Son and Holy 

989
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,440
Spirit, and Holy Spirit's a 
little more mysterious. 

990
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:09,040
But again, we flesh that out in 
Constantinople and there's a lot

991
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:10,520
of discussion to have around the
Holy Spirit. 

992
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:14,960
But the point I'm trying to make
here is when in the Nicene 

993
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,880
sense, whenever we're using 
these terms, Father, Son, Holy 

994
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:23,200
Spirit, 1 being Trinity, what 
we're saying is that there is no

995
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:28,040
hierarchy within this God. 
There's no superiority. 

996
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,080
All you have in the nature of 
that being is other focused, 

997
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,320
self giving love. 
The Son is always submitting to 

998
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:36,160
the Father. 
The Father is always submitting 

999
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:37,880
to the Son. 
The Son is submitting to the 

1000
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,880
Spirit who's taking what is the 
fathers and the sons and making 

1001
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,200
it known to you. 
You see the language of Jesus, 

1002
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,280
It's constantly, it's constantly
deferring to the others. 

1003
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:50,840
So no one can come to the Son 
unless the Father draws him. 

1004
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,320
But no one knows the Father 
except the Son and those to whom

1005
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,560
the Son wills to reveal him. 
So how does that work? 

1006
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,400
The Father says, Jesus says the 
Father himself judges no one. 

1007
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,280
He's entrusted all judgement to 
the Son because he's the Son of 

1008
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,600
man. 
And then later on, well, I judge

1009
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,080
no one. 
Listen to my word. 

1010
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,520
So you, you have a a, you have a
constant deference within the 

1011
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:23,360
Trinity. 
Now that that's not, that's not 

1012
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:27,040
just a way of condescending to 
human life. 

1013
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,560
The point about this is to say 
this is the revelation of what 

1014
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:32,600
the very life and nature of God 
is. 

1015
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,640
See, God does not have a love 
side and a justice side within 

1016
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:38,080
the Trinity. 
It's not that, not that the 

1017
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,400
Father, Son and Spirit have to 
work out what is just and 

1018
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,400
equitable among us. 
How do we divide things up so 

1019
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,960
that it's fair for me, Jesus, 
and fair for you, Father, and 

1020
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,000
fair for you, Holy Spirit. 
We have to, we have to judge 

1021
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:50,920
that. 
And you know, we need to 

1022
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,880
moderate ourselves around each 
other so we don't take too much 

1023
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,760
ground, so that we give enough 
ground so it's fair, equitable, 

1024
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,760
stable and just. 
We do not see that in the 

1025
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,680
Trinity. 
We see complete other focused, 

1026
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,120
self giving, self sacrificing 
love that is poured out from the

1027
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,520
one to the other, even to the 
point where the scripture can 

1028
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,160
say Christ is the Lamb slain 
from before the foundation of 

1029
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,960
the world. 
How can he be slain from before 

1030
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,320
the foundation of the world if 
he was slain 2000 years ago? 

1031
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,400
Well, this has to this has to 
tell us that something about the

1032
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:25,680
very nature and essence of who 
God is is revealed in that 

1033
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,720
truth. 
We sometimes put it this way, 

1034
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,320
God is cruciform, meaning God 
looks like Jesus hanging on the 

1035
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,680
cross. 
The most perfect picture and 

1036
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,760
image we see of what God is like
is when Jesus is hanging on the 

1037
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:41,440
cross and he prays. 
Father, forgive them. 

1038
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,640
They don't know what they do. 
This is the pinnacle. 

1039
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,360
That's why John has in his 
gospel. 

1040
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,600
This is the moment of Jesus's 
coronation, his glorification. 

1041
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,080
It's why he wears the crown of 
thorns when he goes on the on 

1042
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,200
the cross for John, because this
really is his enthronement. 

1043
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,240
When he's lifted up on the cross
is the moment that he's lifted 

1044
00:56:59,240 --> 00:57:01,640
up on the throne of the universe
for John. 

1045
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,680
And this is also why in the Book
of Revelation, when John's 

1046
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:07,960
weeping because no one can open 
the seals, you remember this 

1047
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,960
crazy bit. 
And he is the Angel saying, the 

1048
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:12,840
lion of the tribe of Judah has 
overcome. 

1049
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,000
He has been found worthy. 
And then it says, John says, 

1050
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:20,840
then I looked and I saw a lion. 
Where's the lion? 

1051
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:25,920
There's no lion. 
He hears the lion is overcome, 

1052
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:27,520
and then he turns to find a 
lion. 

1053
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:29,720
But he finds a lamb. 
And not even just a lamb, it 

1054
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:34,680
says like a newborn baby Lamb is
the Greek. 

1055
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:37,080
It's not just like an ordinary 
young lamb. 

1056
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:41,080
It's a, it's an infant newborn 
like lamb. 

1057
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:45,240
I don't know what the term is in
in English farming. 

1058
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,080
People might be able to tell me.
But anyway, it's the newborn 

1059
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,880
lamb who's been slain on the 
throne. 

1060
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,360
So he sees a slain lamb on the 
throne. 

1061
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,280
And it also has seven horns and 
seven eyes, which is kind of a 

1062
00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:59,920
bit crazy. 
But the point is he's, he's not 

1063
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:03,120
seeing a lion, right? 
So again, we get our songs, we 

1064
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:04,600
sing. 
Well, Jesus, you're the lion and

1065
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,880
Jesus, you're the lamb. 
No, you're not. 

1066
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,840
Jesus, you are the way in which 
you are a lion. 

1067
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:13,240
And the lion is a symbol of, of,
you know, kingship, of strength,

1068
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:16,800
of dominance and all of that. 
The way in which your powers 

1069
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,520
manifest is in the lamb 
likeness. 

1070
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:21,640
It's not that you're a lamb on 
one side. 

1071
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,200
You're a lamb on a good day and 
a lion on a bad day. 

1072
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:28,160
It's this, it's not bipolar, 
right, that these two things 

1073
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:29,240
are. 
There's no tension. 

1074
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,040
It's not lamb and lion in 
tension with one another. 

1075
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:35,240
It's no the way in which he is a
lion, which is a a well known 

1076
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,480
metaphor for the Jews, the lion 
of the tribe of Judah, well 

1077
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,800
known metaphor for the Messiah. 
But in what way is he a lion? 

1078
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:45,120
In what way is he a conqueror? 
In what way is he an overcomer? 

1079
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:50,680
It's as the slain Lamb, what is 
the power which enables him to 

1080
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:52,840
bring the whole world into 
alignment with him. 

1081
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:57,280
It's the power of the cross. 
That's why Athanasius says 

1082
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,280
wherever the cross is held up 
and declared, the demons flee. 

1083
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,000
The sickness is heal. 
You know all of that. 

1084
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,400
He comes back to this. 
It's good because God is 

1085
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,560
cruciform. 
God is shaped like the cross. 

1086
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,400
He looks like the character of 
God as revealed on the cross is 

1087
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,960
the truest statement we get 
about what God is like. 

1088
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,720
So every time we're coming to 
the Lord's Table, it's supposed 

1089
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:20,840
to be a re engagement without 
reality. 

1090
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,000
Because as Martin Luther said, 
we need to hear the gospel every

1091
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:25,480
day because we forget it every 
day. 

1092
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,280
We're constantly getting dragged
away by other human ideas which 

1093
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,080
make more sense to our rational 
minds. 

1094
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,240
And I'm as guilty of that as 
anybody, right? 

1095
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,000
Yeah. 
I mean, God, I would be doing a 

1096
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,160
better job of this than you. 
But don't you think that 

1097
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,320
absolutely doing a better job of
sorting out the Ukraine war than

1098
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,240
you would be right now? 
God, I do not think you're doing

1099
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:49,280
a good job. 
My, my natural mind looks at 

1100
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:53,640
this a certain way, right? 
But the, the invitation, once 

1101
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:57,760
we've, once we've learned, once 
we've tasted that our hearts 

1102
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,280
burn within us around the person
of Christ that enables us to 

1103
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,520
say, like with Peter, OK, Jesus,
we cannot figure this out, but 

1104
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,400
where else can we go? 
You've got the words of eternal 

1105
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,840
life and we need to hang around 
with you and trust that it's 

1106
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:11,360
going, that sense is going to 
come into this and your light is

1107
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,520
going to continue to confront 
the darkness and going to 

1108
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:15,240
continue to make sense of this 
stuff. 

1109
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,080
And we don't know how that's 
going to going to get worked 

1110
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:19,640
out, but we're participating 
right now. 

1111
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,160
And there's the action, right? 
And there's where where faith 

1112
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:28,480
working through love gives rise 
to love as an action Love, love 

1113
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:34,000
put into effect in, in, in real 
pragmatic terms, it falls into 

1114
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,120
places, the natural overflow and
the consequence of getting 

1115
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:41,880
straight in face to face with 
him and discovering, oh, his 

1116
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,000
love is in me. 
His love is reconstituting me 

1117
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,680
because I'm not the centre of 
the question any longer. 

1118
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,120
It's not what must I do, it's 
who is he? 

1119
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,280
And now what has he done? 
And how has that then changed 

1120
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,240
everything about me and the 
world and everything else? 

1121
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,560
And then we're able to say, like
Paul's able to say, we now no 

1122
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,880
longer regard anyone after the 
flesh, only after the Spirit. 

1123
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,240
Even we used to regard Christ 
that way. 

1124
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:11,680
We don't regard him that way or 
anyone else any longer. 

1125
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:14,720
Can you say something like that?
How can you get to a point of 

1126
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:18,320
saying we do not? 
I do not look at anybody and 

1127
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:21,320
process my decisions about who 
they are or what they, what 

1128
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,360
they're like based on anything 
in the physical, fleshly, 

1129
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,160
material world. 
I base it only after the Spirit.

1130
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:31,840
And that spirit is also again 
good Trinitarian formula. 

1131
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:35,800
And Christ the last Adam became 
the life giving spirit. 

1132
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:45,080
Crazy language and so we see in 
the Holy Spirit the same nature 

1133
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:49,640
and character and the same will 
the same mind that when Jesus 

1134
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,800
says the Son can only do what he
sees the Father doing so the the

1135
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:57,240
Holy Spirit perfectly expresses 
in the same way the same life 

1136
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:00,200
that the Holy Spirit has with a 
father and son for all eternity.

1137
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,600
Now, if that if we we start 
getting straight on that, this 

1138
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,400
becomes our hermeneutic where we
say, all right, given that 

1139
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:13,440
reality, how then do we need to 
That's like Baxter talks about 

1140
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:15,520
it is the the twist at the end 
of the book. 

1141
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:17,760
You know, if you're reading a 
crime novel, Agatha Christie, 

1142
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,120
you get the twist at the end. 
And suddenly when you get that 

1143
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,120
twist, it changes everything 
that has happened up until now 

1144
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:25,320
in that book. 
What was the book saying to us? 

1145
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,560
Well, now the twist was it was 
all a hallucination. 

1146
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:29,320
Hang on a minute. 
I need to go back and read. 

1147
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:30,680
Where were the clues? 
Right. 

1148
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,960
So when we when we get that 
final word of the Father, which 

1149
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:38,680
is Jesus Christ, we then don't 
take him and put him on the same

1150
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:40,920
level. 
We, we don't put him as this 

1151
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,080
component and put Moses here and
the prophets here and all of 

1152
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,600
this and put them all out and 
say, OK, now how do we harmonise

1153
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,680
all of these into a nice 
rational, cohesive whole? 

1154
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:54,240
We don't, we don't do that. 
We say, like the the voice of 

1155
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:57,120
the Father said to James, Peter 
and John on the Mount of 

1156
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,360
Transfiguration when they had 
Moses, Elijah and Jesus all 

1157
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:03,080
appear in front of them and 
Peter wanted to put three 

1158
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:04,880
tabernacles up, one for each of 
them. 

1159
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:08,200
As soon as he wants to do that, 
the Father envelops them in a 

1160
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:12,320
cloud and says, this is my son 
by the way, listen to him. 

1161
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:15,840
Then when the cloud is removed, 
Moses and Elijah are gone. 

1162
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,200
What's that supposed to tell us?
Moses and Elijah means the law 

1163
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:23,640
and the prophets. 
When Jesus says before Abraham 

1164
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:27,440
was I am, He's trying to say to 
you, listen, he even puts it 

1165
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:31,640
this way, but you've heard Moses
say this, but I tell you this 

1166
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,280
James and John calling fire down
from heaven. 

1167
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,320
They want to do it because 
they're just quoting what Elijah

1168
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:39,080
did. 
And Jesus doesn't say to them. 

1169
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,240
We don't do that anymore because
it's a new time, you know, and 

1170
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:45,040
we're being nice to people now 
that the pendulum is swung from 

1171
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:47,480
the judgement side to the love 
side for a while while I'm here.

1172
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:50,200
And by the way, it's going to 
swing back again, you know, when

1173
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:52,760
I, when I come back and nuke the
planet right in the second 

1174
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:56,520
coming, because that's what a 
lot of Christians believe that 

1175
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,240
Jesus is going to kind of nuke 
the planet, right? 

1176
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:01,080
And then New Jerusalem is going 
to come down like a giant board 

1177
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:04,520
cube from Star Trek and land on 
it coming, coming from space. 

1178
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:07,560
You know, I mean, a lot of 
people actually believe this. 

1179
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:09,320
I don't know, maybe you do, you 
don't, but a lot of people do. 

1180
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:14,720
But he's he's saying, I'm losing
my thread. 

1181
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:15,720
I need to stop and put you in 
groups. 

1182
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,240
He's saying to them, he doesn't 
say we're not doing this 

1183
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:21,280
anymore. 
Look at his words. 

1184
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:26,720
He says you do not know what 
spirit you are of, you do not 

1185
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:31,680
know what spirit you are of, 
which is tantamount to saying 

1186
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,440
you don't know who the God is 
that you believe in. 

1187
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:40,440
You don't know you want to call 
fire down from heaven because 

1188
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:42,000
you think that's what God is 
like. 

1189
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:47,840
I know where you get that from, 
but you don't know what God is 

1190
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:50,680
like. 
The Son of Man, which means God,

1191
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:53,080
by the way, when he says the Son
of man, that's a statement 

1192
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:56,600
meaning God, the Son of man has 
not come to destroy men's lives,

1193
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:59,600
but to save them. 
So then the question is, will, 

1194
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:01,880
at what point did God change 
what God was doing? 

1195
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:07,320
Was God, Well, OK, up until now 
he's been a been a, you know, a 

1196
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:10,400
severe but fair judge that's 
been saving some and destroying 

1197
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,880
others. 
And now Jesus has come and is 

1198
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:16,560
kind of doing something to 
change this around a little bit.

1199
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:20,520
Well, well, that's to say that 
Jesus and the Father are not in 

1200
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:23,000
a court, right? 
It's to say that there is some 

1201
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:28,360
introduction of significant 
change in who God is, that the 

1202
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:31,920
attitude and the nature of God 
is as a perfectionist judge, 

1203
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,320
that he's kind of weighing you 
against one side or another. 

1204
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:35,920
Would you? 
And that's what the that's what 

1205
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:37,760
the apostles are thinking. 
That's why they want to call 

1206
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:39,960
fire down from heaven. 
And when Jesus comes and he says

1207
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:42,320
the Son of Man has not come to 
destroy men's lives, he's 

1208
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:46,480
telling us what God is like. 
God is not a destroyer of men's 

1209
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:48,040
life. 
Who is the destroyer? 

1210
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,120
Well, he says the thief comes to
steal, kill and destroy. 

1211
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,440
The thief is the destroyer, not 
God the thief. 

1212
01:05:55,920 --> 01:06:00,640
I've come to give life. 
The Holy Spirit is the Lord and 

1213
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:02,600
giver of life. 
It's in the Nicene Creed and the

1214
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:06,080
resurrection and the life. 
He's the life giver, not the 

1215
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:08,760
death giver. 
The disciples thought that it 

1216
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:11,600
was death and life because they 
had that in their Bible. 

1217
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:16,920
You have stories like God sent 
an evil spirit to possess soul. 

1218
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:19,760
Do you believe God sent an evil 
spirit to possess soul? 

1219
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,480
Because I don't believe that. 
I don't believe God has evil 

1220
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:25,280
spirits who work for him and he 
sends them around to get people 

1221
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:27,480
to go into line. 
And the reason I don't believe 

1222
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:30,560
that is because I met Jesus and 
there's nothing in Jesus that 

1223
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:32,560
remotely demonstrates that to 
me. 

1224
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:35,760
On no level does he show me that
pattern of behaviour. 

1225
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:37,360
He does not show me that 
character. 

1226
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:40,080
And when when Philip says to 
Jesus, we'll just show us the 

1227
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,800
Father and that will be enough 
for us, he says, if you've seen 

1228
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:47,000
me, you have seen the Father. 
The question is, who is the 

1229
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:48,800
Father? 
Well, you've, you've seen me, 

1230
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,760
you have seen him. 
There is no difference in, in 

1231
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:54,680
the sense of there's no 
qualitative difference, right? 

1232
01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:57,320
There's a personal difference. 
We see the Son and the Father, 

1233
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:03,080
you know, are two of three in 
one God in three hypostatic 

1234
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:06,560
persons. 
But the nature and the 

1235
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:09,360
character, the identity of the 
Son is a perfect reflection and 

1236
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:10,760
manifestation of the heart of 
the Father. 

1237
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,000
The Son can only do what he sees
the Father doing. 

1238
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,800
So when he says the Son of God 
has not come to take men's 

1239
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:19,880
lives, this is not a 
dispensational temporary. 

1240
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:22,280
We're going to, we're doing this
little window of time where 

1241
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:25,600
suddenly we're changing how 
we're behaving towards humanity.

1242
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:30,360
This is the word made flesh 
that's come into our confusion 

1243
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,240
and our mess and our darkness 
and has come to light it up from

1244
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:36,000
the inside so that there could 
be no more ambiguity. 

1245
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:40,960
And then for Athanasius and 
others, all other visions of God

1246
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:43,960
have to die at the feet of the 
vision of the Father, Son and 

1247
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:45,480
Holy Spirit as revealed in 
Christ. 

1248
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:49,520
And we take that and we go back 
and we say, all right, let's, 

1249
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:53,400
let's see it. 
Help us now to see Jesus show us

1250
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:56,320
what we couldn't see before. 
What were we blind to before? 

1251
01:07:56,560 --> 01:08:00,000
What were we, what frameworks 
were we using to understand the 

1252
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:03,560
Scripture or to understand life,
our own experience that now need

1253
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:06,800
to be reconstituted now that 
we've met you like the like the 

1254
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:10,240
people who said which man sinned
who sinned this man or his 

1255
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:12,720
parents that he was born blind. 
Well, they're just working with 

1256
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,880
the Bible. 
I will visit the sins of the 

1257
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,279
fathers on to the third and the 
4th generation, right. 

1258
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:23,600
It's just there in the Bible, 
and Jesus said neither this 

1259
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:25,279
happened so the glory of God 
could come into him. 

1260
01:08:25,279 --> 01:08:26,840
Which isn't to say God caused 
it. 

1261
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:28,960
He's just point. 
He's just pointing to the Father

1262
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:30,240
again. 
He's saying, let me show you 

1263
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:31,800
what the Father is like. 
Bang. 

1264
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:33,439
Here's the healing. 
Your sights, your sights 

1265
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:35,680
restored. 
You're asking a question of 

1266
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,880
legal significance. 
Who gets punishment for what? 

1267
01:08:39,319 --> 01:08:40,840
I'm going to show you what the 
Father is like. 

1268
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:42,720
Here's the healing. 
His sight is restored. 

1269
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:48,279
You see these? 
Yeah. 

1270
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:57,880
OK, take the group time and wave
me over if you want. 

1271
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:06,479
But my last conclusion on this 
is these are not, these are not 

1272
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,240
compatible, right? 
It's oil and water. 

1273
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:11,359
They don't mix. 
It's like we say grace and law 

1274
01:09:11,359 --> 01:09:13,960
don't mix. 
It's we can put that in better 

1275
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,560
terms. 
Grace plus law equals law. 

1276
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:22,359
And if any part of the chain 
depends on us, then the whole 

1277
01:09:22,359 --> 01:09:24,200
chain depends on us because the 
chain's only as strong as the 

1278
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:27,080
weakest link. 
So therefore, what is Jesus 

1279
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:30,840
presenting to us that is not the
chain that we've had, we've had 

1280
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:32,760
before. 
All right, take it, take it, 

1281
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:34,520
discuss, wave me over if you 
want. 

1282
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,240
Hey everyone, please keep 
staying and chatting if you 

1283
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:42,160
want. 
I got, I got waylated to another

1284
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:45,880
discussion at the back. 
But if you if you want to, we 

1285
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:48,680
have sort of formally finished 
and maybe if you could take a 

1286
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:53,359
plate out and put the scrape the
things away in the bin on the 

1287
01:09:53,359 --> 01:09:57,240
way out would be would be grand.
And do we need the tables to the

1288
01:09:57,240 --> 01:09:59,840
sides as well, Chris? 
Yeah, if you don't, if you don't

1289
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:01,880
mind. 
But I mean, I'm I'll stick, I'll

1290
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:03,720
stick around. 
We'll be the last out if anyone 

1291
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:06,200
wants to keep talking. 
But thanks very much. 

1292
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:08,240
Cheers.