1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,680 OK, welcome everyone. It's very exciting to have you 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:09,280 here. I am, I'm I'm just going to 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,120 welcome everyone again. And if anyone can remember the 4 00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:16,560 acronym from last time, I will just be so happy because I'm 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,040 actually going to expand it with a letter. 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,920 So it was a three letter word last time, which is the culture 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,640 of this conversation, both here and in any conversation we have 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,520 at Hope or with anyone for the next year. 9 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,320 It was a three letter word. Can anyone remember it? 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,360 Gap. Mind the gap. 11 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:41,480 So what did G stand for? Close gentleness. 12 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:47,600 So we are, what we want to do is hold a space where people will 13 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,160 have very differing experiences, very different kind of 14 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:53,520 perspectives and different theology. 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,760 But we can do that with gentleness. 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:01,120 In fact, Peter says, always be willing to share the hope that 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,080 you have within you, but do it with gentleness and respect. 18 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,840 Gentleness is so compelling, especially in an age of vitriol. 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,080 And second point G gentleness. A. 20 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,800 It's difficult this ask. Thanks, Peter. 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,600 So ask if you don't know words. There's nothing more annoying 22 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,080 than theologians who forget that most people don't use words like 23 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,720 soterology or Christology and they have no idea all that means 24 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,120 is being saved or Jesus. It's like you just like we put 25 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,960 ology on things to for no reason. 26 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,480 So please, there is no question that is too simple. 27 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,800 And in fact, it's really important we don't, we have this 28 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:48,600 conversation and are able to say actually, I literally don't 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,440 understand a word you're saying because otherwise we're not 30 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,080 having a conversation. The idea of a conversation is 31 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,680 one person connects with another person, but if one person is 32 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:02,120 speaking a different language, the idea of a conversation isn't 33 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:03,600 happening because there's not a connection. 34 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,320 It's really serious, actually. So we need to say, I don't 35 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,240 understand what you're saying. Now, what's the P? 36 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,480 Because I'm going to add in an extra letter which I'm quite 37 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,240 excited about. But what was the P? 38 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,320 Gentleness. Ask something. 39 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:29,080 This quite might be an emotional roller coaster, so we pay 40 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:34,960 attention to what rises up in us when we hear something. 41 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,600 For example, when I hear the word God is in everyone, 42 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:43,560 something rises up in me. I just pay attention to that. 43 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,400 Why does that? What is that? 44 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,680 Why am I experiencing some sort of emotional response to that? 45 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,880 That's interesting. I believe God created everyone. 46 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,200 I believe he's with everyone. I even believe he came in the 47 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:05,400 socks in the human condition. He, Adam, everyone died in Adam. 48 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,840 Everyone's made alive in Christ. That's a direct quote from Paul. 49 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:14,760 So why does that? Why is that difficult for me? 50 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,680 Not saying that is a it's not about a right or wrong. 51 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:23,120 It's just pay attention to the things that provoke us because 52 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,480 they're very helpful in our growth and self-awareness. 53 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:30,960 OK, so that's gap, but I'm going to add in an S so it's going to 54 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,720 be gasp, do you like that? I'm quite pleased with that. 55 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,880 I was thinking, can I make a 10 letter word where every single 56 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:44,360 time over the next 10 months I build gasps, grasps and then I 57 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,040 anyway, the point is gasp, say something. 58 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,760 OK, if which I've just modelled and I'm going to ask Emma in a 59 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,240 minute to model. If you are struggling with 60 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,640 something, do not just leave quietly. 61 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,920 Like, it's really important you don't just leave quietly. 62 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,280 People, British people just leave quietly. 63 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:10,400 They don't know how to say. That is so scary for me. 64 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,600 That's so uncomfortable. That's so discombobulating 65 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,440 because no one knows what the heck that word means. 66 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,880 That is so disorientating. I can't actually go there. 67 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,640 Just say it. Like, what's the worst thing 68 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,120 that can happen? Someone goes, yeah, I don't 69 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:25,640 know. I don't know. 70 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,920 We're talking about the biggest ideas or way of reality in the 71 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,160 cosmos here. There's going to be things that 72 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,440 are hard for us to get our minds around. 73 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,680 The word mystery is used a lot for a reason, I think. 74 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,640 I think it's more dangerous if we think we've somehow got our 75 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,720 faith buttoned up and we can explain it coherently and we're 76 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,440 in alignment with it. Personally, I wake up and think 77 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,760 Jesus said that, that the cosmos is held together by the word. 78 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:04,840 Wow, do I live with integrity to that reality that everything's 79 00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:11,360 held together by the word. So say something. 80 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,520 So today it's gentleness. Ask if you don't understand, say 81 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:21,320 something and pay attention. So Emma, would you like to? 82 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,040 Emma's going to share a bit of her journey with this content so 83 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:26,960 far. And that the biggest thing I 84 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,720 have, which I've been talking to Paul and Grace about, is I 85 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,680 struggle with the the idea that the problem of evil is a big 86 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,240 thing I think about and sin and death. 87 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,600 It's great, isn't it? Welcome to my brain. 88 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,880 And I think so I'm struggling a lot with that and the content 89 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,880 here with that. At the same time, I think I, I'm 90 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,000 touching something that I've never touched before. 91 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,240 When the Father says to the Son at the baptism, you're my 92 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,000 beloved, He's saying that to the new humanity. 93 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,880 He's saying it to Christ. He's saying it, I'm in Christ, 94 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,280 I'm in the Father. He's saying to the new humanity. 95 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:11,160 We are in Christ. We are the beloved. 96 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,040 I think there's some participation in the Trinity in 97 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,400 that moment. I'm, I'm kind of touching, but I 98 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,440 can't really explain. So I've got the darkness stuff. 99 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,680 I wrestle with a lot how what why Jesus died. 100 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:28,920 I think about that a lot, how it achieves the change of the human 101 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,000 condition. But on the other hand, I feel 102 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:40,080 like I'm touching something that is profoundly hopeful in every 103 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,520 way. So that's where I'm at with this 104 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,280 content. Yeah. 105 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:53,720 So after we got together last month, I was quite interested at 106 00:06:53,720 --> 00:07:00,560 my reaction. I felt, I felt very emotional. 107 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,680 And I, I think it, the feeling was, gosh, am I meant to believe 108 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,720 everything that this course is teaching us? 109 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,400 Are we all meant to be adopting this way of thinking? 110 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,200 And what happens if by the end of the course, I don't? 111 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,920 Does that mean that I'm no longer able to be part of this 112 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,360 community? And does that mean I have to 113 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,000 leave hope? And Oh no, I've just made lots 114 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,320 of lovely relationships and I mean, that's catastrophizing. 115 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,120 But on the other hand, I was observing this and going, that's 116 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,160 interesting. What's that about? 117 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:47,200 So I, rather than quietly leave hope I I've talked to what I 118 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,040 talked to Alice about it and had a really good conversation with 119 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,080 her. And I've talked to a few people 120 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,920 and just express my doubts, my fears, the things that I'm 121 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:04,000 struggling to get my head round. I had a conversation with Paul 122 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,000 this afternoon, which is really helpful. 123 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:12,160 And so I think it's a journey and I don't necessarily think I 124 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,160 will agree with all of it. And then, but I've come to the 125 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,840 place where I think that's fine. But it is really it's been great 126 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,160 for sharpening actually what what is it that I believe? 127 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,360 What do I think about that? So I'm hanging in there. 128 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:31,680 Thank you. Thanks, Emma. 129 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:38,200 I'm just going to Did you? It's Rob going to come up? 130 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,039 Rob, it's Rob going. Rob, do you want to come up now? 131 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:48,400 I'm just going. To no, you shouldn't clap first, 132 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:58,120 you haven't heard what I've said and I've got way more notes here 133 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,480 than than I want. But I actually just to add on 134 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,040 one bit for that. I think for me, where I've got 135 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,960 so far, it's really stood out and where my little talk on 136 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,160 Hillary of Hillary, of, of Poitiers is, is is linked. 137 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:17,440 It's this idea of why the Trinity is so important and why 138 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:23,000 it was so important to to to defend this idea of a God that 139 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:28,000 exists in relationship with himself, experiencing love, not 140 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,920 needing anything additional, but out of that loving place looking 141 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,520 to bring us in. And I said to Charlie Karen, I 142 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,600 don't know if you guys remember, you know, occasionally he's done 143 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,200 this sort of the bat God and the Trinity in church. 144 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,160 And I said, I so love that you've done that because I don't 145 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:50,400 think I grew up too much with bat God, but there's elements 146 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,800 that are there. And the thing that's really 147 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,800 where I'm at so far with is that feeling of art just. 148 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,560 But like how I said, I I don't fully get it, but I'm really 149 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:03,640 excited to come back to that place of God is inherently 150 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,040 loving. And you know, he he doesn't, you 151 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:10,080 know, this is not about me needing to do the right thing. 152 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:19,920 Yeah. So, so Hillary of Poitier have a 153 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,000 little picture of him here. That's the man. 154 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:26,680 He's gone. How's he gone? 155 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:34,760 Very good looking guy. Long beard, but so he was he 156 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,960 became a Christian. So I think ever got it right. 157 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,160 The Council of Nice and the Nice and Creed has decided in 325 158 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:45,000 about that. So he becomes a Christian after 159 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,080 that. He came from quite a a wealthy, 160 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,880 well educated background in France. 161 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:53,360 So he'd have known Greek and he'd have he'd have had a lot of 162 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,800 the, you know, some of the best of the academic skills at the 163 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:02,560 time. And so he quite often, he 164 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,440 sometimes gets described as a couple of ways. 165 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,640 One is the the Athanasius of the West pronouncing that right. 166 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:15,600 So Athanasius was a, an Eastern Church father who'd have been 167 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,680 older than him, but he'd been very key, I think round about 168 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:23,120 the time of the Nicene Creed of making the point that Jesus is 169 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,080 not created by God. You know, less than the first of 170 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,680 the new creation, which I think is the, the Aryan. 171 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:40,200 So Aries is it so Arius? And then there's is it Sibelius? 172 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:46,800 Sibelius had this idea that that God is 3 distinct things. 173 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,880 And Athanasius, I think was very key at saying no, no, Jesus is 174 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:57,160 God and really defending this idea that this this is God in 175 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:01,320 three persons in relationship with themselves, which is, you 176 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,760 know, a lot of the stuff that's been picked up on from John. 177 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:09,560 And so Hillary of of Pache is born later after the council of 178 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,440 the nice increase come back is out and it's been, you know, a 179 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,040 couple of maybe a couple of decades, but it's being 180 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,600 contested. And so I think it was it maybe 181 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:27,880 that's where Arias was Arias. OK, so he's saying Jesus 182 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,800 actually is not God. He is the first of all creation. 183 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,760 And I can see there's this thing, if you begin to pick 184 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:38,240 apart the Trinity in terms of who they are as one relating and 185 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,960 loving each other, you begin to introduce the option that that 186 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:49,000 God is somehow separate. And that's been a really 187 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,720 interesting thing for me to be, to be thinking about with all of 188 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,600 this, you know, this idea of a separate God who who could then 189 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,440 drift into the judge that I need to apologise to because I've had 190 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,120 a bad day. And I'm like, you know, are we 191 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,520 OK yet? God versus, you know, Charlie 192 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,680 Caron, you know, the, the, the, the Rube Lev picture, you know, 193 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:10,640 the Trinity in relationship, sitting facing each other, 194 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,240 inviting me in. And that feels really, really, 195 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:19,680 really powerful. So, so a lot of what Hillary did 196 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:24,640 was, was defending this. And he's a, he's a, he's a 197 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,000 Bishop. But at that point, the Roman 198 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,920 Empire, depending on who was sort of emperor at the time, it 199 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,600 seems like that this idea of Jesus was God and he is God 200 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,960 versus he's somehow slightly less than is being sort of 201 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,080 kicked around. And so Hillary's actually kicked 202 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:42,880 out of the church a couple of times. 203 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,040 And at one point he sort of excommunicated. 204 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,320 And at that point he actually goes to live somewhere in the 205 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:50,880 East. And I thought this was quite 206 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,880 interesting just about how God sometimes works. 207 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,200 So he's, he's taken out of his role and put over into the East. 208 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,920 But whilst he's there, he's able to learn a lot more about what a 209 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,800 lot of the Eastern church fathers were saying coming from 210 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:11,920 the West and playing around with this, this, this Greek word homo 211 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,440 homo eusis, no, homo eusis, which is the word that means he 212 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:21,200 is of the same substance as God versus homo eusis, which means 213 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,560 not that I can't remember quite what, but of, of different Subs, 214 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,520 you know, like, but not the same. 215 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,680 And I love the fact that in this period of exile, he, he 216 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,680 essentially, you know, God uses that and he, he produces his big 217 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,640 a, a major work, which is a book basically is the Latin for the 218 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,560 Trinity or something like that. He, he writes a, a key bit of 219 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,840 doctrine, but it's been really influenced by the exile and 220 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,080 where he's been and the people that he's been with. 221 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,400 That's, you know, that's really, really key. 222 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:59,120 So, so he's sometimes described as the, the hammer of the Aryans 223 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,720 or the Athanasius of the West. So there's this idea that he was 224 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,920 somebody that took, took on this, this, this essentially 225 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,200 like a, a battle for church theology about Churchill. 226 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,880 Yeah, the Christology like who was Jesus? 227 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,080 So that's the that's the main one. 228 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,200 There are various quotes that I could read to add on to that, 229 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,240 but they don't add too much other than the main quote that 230 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,640 you find from him, which was. It can also be a boy's name. 231 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:38,080 Nice one, Alice. Just going to do a quick pot of 232 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:39,840 church history because this will really help. 233 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,840 SO100AD all the Bibles. The New Testament is written 234 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,600 down. OK, but then then there's this 235 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,600 age of persecution. But 300 AD Rob mentioned the 236 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,720 Nicene Creed. What I'm going to do is ask 237 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,000 someone to find it and read it out in a minute where basically, 238 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,520 so those 200 years church fathers wrestled with what that 239 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,840 meant. Who is Jesus with the big 240 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,360 question, who is he? Is he fully human, fully divine, 241 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,040 or both? Every single thing that we 242 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,880 understand as heresy forever is can be stemmed back there. 243 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,440 So, for example, if the Muslims believe Jesus is a prophet, but 244 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,200 he wasn't God, that that's heresy according to Orthodoxy, 245 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,000 which was established by 300 all the Mormons, everything's tested 246 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,320 and is he Jesus? Did Jesus come in the flesh? 247 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,280 Is he fully human, fully divine? And there was some Trinitarian 248 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,280 thinking on the on the Holy Spirit as well. 249 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:39,800 But then the empire becomes Christian and you have basically 250 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,680 this kind of the beginnings of an East West division. 251 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,360 So what language do you think the West was thinking and 252 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:48,080 speaking? Yeah. 253 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,880 And what kind of mindset do you think they had? 254 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,600 Yeah. So judicial, legal, systematic. 255 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,080 Can you feel that if you feel it's more of a like A and it's a 256 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,280 lot of us, not all of us, but a lot of our my certainly 257 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,400 MyHeritage is more, more on the West. 258 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,200 I know Paul has Greek heritage as well, which is is more on the 259 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,160 East, but so then just giving it away. 260 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,040 But what's the main language over here? 261 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:21,040 So what Rob just said was there was a man in the West thinking 262 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,880 like the West was developing where people like Augustine were 263 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,079 who who coined the term original sin. 264 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:33,280 He actually moved to exile over here and had and did a did a lot 265 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:38,760 of work on who Jesus is. And then you tragically have 266 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,680 what's called the schism in 1054. 267 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,800 But all theology was developed by about 300, which means 268 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,160 there's actually unity on agreement between everyone. 269 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,080 But there was a schism on on whether the Son proceeds or not 270 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,200 from the Father in the Trinity. It's quite a niche thing in 271 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,200 1054. We don't need to think about 272 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,320 that now. Anyone know what the name of 273 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,560 this sort this church is now then called? 274 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:08,720 Yeah, they're about, you can ask chap GBT, but I think they're 275 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,720 about 24. But they are all in communion 276 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,840 with each other. Do you know what this side is 277 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,040 called? Catholic? 278 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:22,720 Brilliant. And then so do you know what 279 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:29,080 happened to roughly 1500? So Orthodoxy never went through 280 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,360 an enlightenment. It kept what we call a mystical 281 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:38,400 vision, which means reality is experienced and then it's 282 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,080 explained the E the West went through something called the 283 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,320 Enlightenment, which is our minds are what works out 284 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,480 reality. And we did very well on that. 285 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,200 Anyone who's in medicine will be very we're all grateful for the 286 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,240 scientific revolution that came out of that. 287 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:57,680 Our minds are incredible and when we can never knock that. 288 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,640 So that that's the heritage here. 289 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,960 And then, as I said, does anyone remember how many Protestant 290 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,280 denominations there are? 30 to 45,000? 291 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:14,240 Not necessarily in disagreement, but individualism came in 292 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,960 humanism. So you could kind of just start 293 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,120 your own thing. But then something really 294 00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:20,720 extraordinary happened. I talked about this at our last 295 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,360 time at Maze Green Farm with Silas and Annie. 296 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:30,600 Something happened in the in the the from the year 1900 to 2000. 297 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,400 That change. I think it's the biggest story 298 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:39,000 in history ever that often goes unnoticed and it it's, sorry, 299 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,920 Pentecostalism. Exactly. 300 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,800 Pentecostalism came out of this side. 301 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:50,240 It's spreading across over here. And essentially, I think Paul 302 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,520 would agree with me on this. People started experiencing 303 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,440 things that this theology couldn't explain. 304 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,600 They were, we have someone here who's who's now left, but she 305 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,640 met Yeshua Jesus in tarot cards when she was spiritually 306 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,840 seeking. And we have story after story 307 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,680 and we look back at our lives and say God was where he 308 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,440 shouldn't have been. And that changed the nature of 309 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:20,640 the global church such that at the beginning of the 1900, a 310 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,960 typical Christian would be a white person with European 311 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,200 heritage. And by the end of it, it would 312 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,720 be a black woman who's 30 something in Africa. 313 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,240 And the entire Latin America, African continent and the global 314 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,760 SS and East Asia just experienced pretty much zero to 315 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,880 500 million people coming to faith. 316 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,840 So something happened quite extraordinarily there, including 317 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,360 more mystical, what the Orthodox would call mystical experiences. 318 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:56,520 So what I think we're doing is part of a, a unifying process 319 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,760 because this, this is healing a lot. 320 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,880 The Protestant Catholic thing, I don't know if you've noticed, 321 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,000 even in my lifetime, there's so much more collaboration, 322 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,400 friendship. No one really, no one really 323 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,160 minds about whether the real presence is in the sacraments or 324 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,480 not. Sorry, a Catholic would mind. 325 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,080 I'm saying that I love my Catholic brothers and sisters. 326 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,960 I don't want to kill them, which we did 500 years ago, 327 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,360 apparently. Do you see what I mean? 328 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:25,400 Like something's changed in our heart condition. 329 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,640 We're like, OK with it somehow, even though it's a very 330 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,920 different way of understanding communion. 331 00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:34,040 And I think at the moment this is going towards here. 332 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,600 So I'm not, I'm not going to speak anymore, but I want Paul 333 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,200 to host now the rest of the evening, obviously. 334 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,640 But I hope that gives you a sense of the bigger picture of 335 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,800 what what this conversation's about this side far more 336 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,640 Trinitarian, far more communion, far more about union with Christ 337 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:57,160 and mysticism about here something developed a legal 338 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:02,760 model of atonement, which is probably the model of atonement. 339 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,960 I'm not going to go into now, but we've inherited. 340 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,600 I think all I'm saying is it's relatively recent and it's 341 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,120 relatively Western. And it may be true like that 342 00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:18,480 isn't a problem, but it's it's, it's small compared to the 343 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,680 global historic church, and it's certainly very recent compared 344 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,200 to all the theology that was worked out by here. 345 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,440 So if someone's got the Nicene Creed, pay attention to what it 346 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,040 says about who Jesus is, the Trinity and why Jesus died. 347 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:36,080 Can someone read it out, please? This is the first of a number of 348 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,840 creeds that that the church has agreed was what we call 349 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,480 orthodoxy. The first thing I want everyone 350 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,080 to do is say, why does this matter? 351 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,760 Why we're talking about celebrity traitors. 352 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,080 We're just trying to get out of bed in the morning. 353 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:54,600 We're trying to get through the day. 354 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,160 Some of us have got financial problems, some are why the heck 355 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,440 is this relevant? Because if we don't know our 356 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:08,280 why, we we won't have what it takes to do this journey. 357 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:16,160 But if we have a why, we will. So I just, yes, Pete, why does 358 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,840 it matter to discuss what we think God's like, the Trinity's 359 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,520 like, why Jesus died, Why does this matter? 360 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,560 So I'd love you to just talk about that in your groups and 361 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,440 then I'm going to hand over to Paul. 362 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:37,000 Let's let's hear a couple of feedback points before we before 363 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,480 we continue with the journey. Does anyone want to feedback 364 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,640 what your discussions mean on your table? 365 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,720 Louis does. Oh, you put your hand up there. 366 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:57,520 OK, Well, you there's some of the things that we were chatting 367 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,680 about was so we asked ourselves a question again. 368 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,040 Why do we need to know? So one of the things that came 369 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:10,920 up was creations want to know their creator. 370 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,840 So we were talking about TV shows where people why? 371 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,440 And then we talked about TV shows where people want to go 372 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,280 and find out their ancestors. What does it matter that your 373 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,080 great, great, great, great grandfather did such a 374 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,680 horrendous thing or a great thing? 375 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,560 Why should that actually matter to you now? 376 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,880 And we were relating that there's a piss. 377 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:42,160 There's something in US that wants to know truth, and then if 378 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,880 truth is not a concept, it's a person. 379 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,680 And if the person is Jesus, which it is, then we want to 380 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:55,840 know who God is because we want to know truth, because we are a 381 00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:58,320 creation and want to know our Creator. 382 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,120 Pass it on Whoever's next. A few other hands. 383 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:11,920 Shut up Micah. Hey, I can't tell if this is on 384 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,720 or not, but something that something that Olivia shared was 385 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:21,760 how our kind of beliefs end up evil, consciously or 386 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,600 unconsciously affecting our actions so. 387 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:27,400 We. We were just kind of playing 388 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,320 that out and thinking like if we're, if we're believing 389 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:35,320 something which is inaccurate, which is a lie, which is not, 390 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:41,160 which is not true, is not kind of a right reflection of God and 391 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,600 his character and his nature. Then that subconsciously or 392 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,680 consciously could start affecting our actions and how we 393 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,240 treat other people or treat ourselves or what we believe 394 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,400 about God and that kind of thing. 395 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:56,880 So I thought that was quite interesting. 396 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,200 It's like a a reason for oh, actually this is important 397 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,360 because it it dictates yeah, how we how we behave, how we treat 398 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:08,760 people. Cool. 399 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:15,600 Thanks, Micah. Peter, we said clarity is good. 400 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:22,240 We said clarity is good. But also if we just look around 401 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,240 and see what what's come up when people don't don't have good 402 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,520 right idea of who God is and what his relationship is to 403 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,320 Western, all sorts of horrible, nasty things come, which I'm 404 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,320 sure those of you who have studied history, Alice could 405 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,120 probably go into a much greater and gorier detail of the night 406 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:46,600 than I could. Thank you. 407 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:53,800 Very good. No, let's, we'll go and we'll go 408 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,400 back to discussion in a minute and kind of keep it going 409 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,440 because I think it's sounds like good discussions were going on. 410 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,200 We were having good ones here anyway, but it sounds like other 411 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,840 good ones are going on too. Just thinking about the the the 412 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:12,080 lecture for this week and some of the kind of headlines here 413 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,440 begin to recognise how the incarnation diagnosis and 414 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:23,440 addresses the darkness first learning outcome for this week. 415 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,920 I think that there is, I'm, I'm really glad we've kind of spent 416 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,840 time hovering on the, on the history and on the creed and why 417 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,960 we look at Saint Hilary and, and these things now. 418 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,440 Because although it's in a couple of weeks, couple of 419 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,600 months time, we'll look at the 20th century as well, 420 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:46,200 particularly the, the Carl's Carl Bath Karlraner, but also 421 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,400 looking at the in, in a little bit more detail into this 422 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:57,880 Sabellian and Aryan heresies. It's it's interesting if we ask 423 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,920 this question, why does it matter that Jesus is God? 424 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,760 Why, why does that matter from a salvation point of view? 425 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,560 What really is the problem if you if you just stop and dwell 426 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,160 on that for a while? Well, why can't he just be the 427 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,920 supreme ultimate creation? Why does he actually have to be 428 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,680 of the same being or of the same substance of the father 429 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,240 homoesios to patri they of the same being or of the same 430 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,760 substance? Why was it so important for 431 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,280 those early believers that they get to that point? 432 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,520 Because for a long time the the majority of the Christian world 433 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,600 was Aryan. Even Saint Augustine says this, 434 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,480 I think it was. Augustine, he says, uses the 435 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,080 phrase up until then. The whole world groaned under 436 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,640 the weight of Aryanism, he said. So that the the kind of 437 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,480 worldwide Christian movement had adopted A majority Aryan 438 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,040 position. Or at least that was his 439 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,200 impression that it was a very widespread view that Jesus was 440 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,720 not in fact God, but he was the supreme creation. 441 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,400 And the the conversation that leads into the Nicene Creed is a 442 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,320 Christological conversation. And you have Hillary, you have 443 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:10,600 Athanasius, you you have them really flying the flag for the 444 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,520 of the same being the same substance and that that 445 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,120 Trinitarian formula. You even have Father Christmas 446 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,480 who turns up apparently at Nicaea and gets into a punch up 447 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:21,480 over the homo Esios. Yeah. 448 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,840 So good. Good old jolly Father Christmas. 449 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,200 Saint Nick Lamps. Somebody you know Sarah. 450 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,520 No, it's a different Aryan. Different Aryan. 451 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,440 Yeah, Yeah, it's a good question, but it's a different. 452 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:36,320 Yeah. Thank you. 453 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,600 Yeah, I think. I think that's Aryan. 454 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:44,080 This is an Aria N Aryan from Arius. 455 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:50,160 Arius is the was a Bishop of Alexandria who was known for 456 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,200 promoting the view that Jesus is not God. 457 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:57,000 He is. He's from he's he's a superior 458 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,560 higher order creation, but he's not actually of the same being 459 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,160 as the Father. So. 460 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,160 So Arianism from Arius the Bishop. 461 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,280 Yeah. So I think this is a, this is an 462 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,880 interesting question. I want you to just hold as we're 463 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,120 going to go back into discussion. 464 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,280 Why does it matter that Jesus is God? 465 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,000 Why did it matter to them? First of all, we might ask the 466 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,280 question, why does it matter to us? 467 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,160 And I want you to think about and talk about why does it 468 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,360 matter from the perspective of what actually is our problem 469 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,200 anyway? What is the problem that the 470 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,720 human race has? And how is it that Jesus's 471 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,480 arrival presents any form of a remedy? 472 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:41,800 What? What's going on here? 473 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,240 And to remind you again of the lecture, we really looked at 474 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,120 John 1 and the concept of the darkness and the light shining 475 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,560 in the darkness. The darkness is neither 476 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,200 understood nor overcome the light. 477 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,120 The darkness is neither understood nor overcome the 478 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,680 light. What is this issue of the 479 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,080 darkness that John is talking about? 480 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,840 Why does he bring it out to the front of the gospel? 481 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,400 This, this important idea? What is it that he's trying to 482 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:14,000 get us to see that we we haven't seen? 483 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,360 And the third part to that question is, OK, maybe we've had 484 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:26,960 some ideas about why Jesus had to die, but I think the question 485 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,040 is not why did Jesus have to die? 486 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,920 The question is, why did he have to die the way that he did? 487 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,600 Because if it's just about Jesus dying, he could have just killed 488 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,080 over and had a heart attack. If it was just about doing, if 489 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,320 that was going to do the job, why does he have to die in the 490 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,720 way that he did? What is that about the 491 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,320 significance of it? So putting those, those three 492 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,400 things together, why does he have to be God? 493 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,880 Why does he have to die the way that he did? 494 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,880 And what is the diagnosis that's given to us, especially from the 495 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,680 perspective of John 1 and the, you know, the, the overall 496 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,800 testimony of the Gospel? Let's go back into discussing 497 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,200 those three points. If you, if you paid attention to 498 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,240 the quote from Athanasius, then by all means bring that up from 499 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,360 the lecture. I'll quote it for you 500 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:17,960 afterwards. But I don't want to quote it 501 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,840 just now because I want you to kind of discuss and then we'll 502 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,160 kind of come back into that. And then we'll look at at how 503 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,920 how Athanasius anchors the problem and from the perspective 504 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,920 of what is it that they were thinking at that time that that 505 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,360 led them to say that this was really very important. 506 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,480 So let's take a few more minutes back in the groups again, 507 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,880 everyone. Cool, throw up. 508 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,640 Throw up a hand and I'll come around if you are unsure of the 509 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,720 questions or the discussion. We're going to have another 510 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,560 discussion now. Paul's going to do it. 511 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:54,040 But if every month 5 different people wash up, that's the rota. 512 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,840 But we're not going to write a rota. 513 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,320 So if you've done it now, that's the time you don't have to do it 514 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:04,240 again. And so in the discussion, Paul's 515 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,040 going to host something in the discussions. 516 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,560 Most people will be around their tables discussing, but there'll 517 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,320 be four or five people who will be washing up because Bex and 518 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,120 Esther did it for a long time last time. 519 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,880 We don't want that to happen again, Esther. 520 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:26,320 Thanks Alice. So let's hope hope again. 521 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,360 You had some some good discussions. 522 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,800 Ciao, everyone. You can listen in on the 523 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,040 recording or through the wall. I don't know if you can hear it 524 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:44,120 Four OK, grand. So should we should we just get 525 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:49,000 get to it some some feedback and then let me maybe maybe teach 526 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,640 into this a little bit to pull out a couple of key points that 527 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,840 maybe haven't come up for your attention from the from the 528 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,640 manual and also from the lecture, But comments, 529 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,440 questions. So we unfortunately picked 530 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:11,400 everything apart, didn't really like every question came kind of 531 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:18,960 fell out of these first questions about, well, if you 532 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:25,760 know, if Jesus is God and then the spirit is also Jesus living 533 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,159 in US. And then we went down the well, 534 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,000 if everyone has the spirit in them, does that mean that 535 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,120 everyone's saved? And then we went picked, we 536 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,600 picked everything apart, but we really need help now building it 537 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,280 all back together because we're we're all completely lost. 538 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:46,679 Completely lost. OK, only because one question 539 00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:48,719 went into the next question, then went into the next question 540 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,880 and it didn't it it kind of spiralled into like, is there 541 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,920 hell or isn't there And all sorts. 542 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,040 We went everywhere. So I don't know whether that 543 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,880 helps or not. Cool. 544 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,840 OK, let me come back to that one. 545 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,080 Although maybe everyone just wants to talk about that now. 546 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,960 But yeah, I mean, as I say, it's fine. 547 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,160 It's fine. I, I, I, I understand why you 548 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,320 might, why you might end up down that rabbit trail. 549 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,040 It's only session 2. And this is, this is part of the 550 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,800 problem of doing it once a month is if it were not once a month, 551 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,880 we would already be like 2/3 of the way through the course like 552 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,880 by now. So, so yes. 553 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,800 But I'll, I'll speak to some of that in a moment, But maybe we 554 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,080 could pass on on on those questions. 555 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,640 Or do you just want me to we're running out of time so I can 556 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,680 just plough on. Jazz is nodding at me. 557 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,040 Sarah's nodding at me. All right, let me let me just 558 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,240 come back to that that one for a moment. 559 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,960 But just on the these kind of key outcomes really. 560 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:54,880 And also to highlight, please do look at the manual and make 561 00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:00,440 Micah. I don't have them at all, but 562 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,640 you can have one. Yeah, I'm sure someone will have 563 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:05,920 spares. If not, I can always send you 564 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,440 the electric, electronic, electric, the electronic 565 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,600 version. Yeah. 566 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:23,640 So, OK, I think, I think I just want to want to restate some of 567 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,640 the things from the lecture that I think is super important to 568 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:26,880 make sure that we don't miss them. 569 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,800 And maybe speak a little bit to your questions. 570 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,280 And I'll stick around for a bit if you want to keep talking as 571 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,600 well. But I do want to let everybody 572 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,120 go sort of officially at half past. 573 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,920 So there's this question, what why does it, why does it have to 574 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,200 be that Jesus is God? Why was this so important? 575 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,120 Because you could have some logic that says, all right, 576 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,640 well, I could kind of get that. If somebody needs to die in 577 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:56,040 order to pay off a debt, well, if Jesus is supreme enough, then 578 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,320 maybe it's still valuable enough to God that God's willing to 579 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,760 kind of accept him in a hostage SWAT type situation. 580 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,480 And he is this sort of still this supreme kind of creature. 581 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,440 So why is that a problem? And that is basically what the 582 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:14,720 Aryans kind of more or less saw it as, you know, except that the 583 00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:17,800 the early church fathers were so resolute that that this is not 584 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,120 right. And if you do that, then you 585 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,760 lose the entire gospel. And I think this is super 586 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,880 significant because for us, often when we ask that question, 587 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,560 well, does why does it have to be that Jesus is God for this 588 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,160 thing to even work? We're like, Oh yeah, I didn't 589 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,600 really know, actually. Like, why is that so important? 590 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,480 And that in itself to me is very telling when we compare what 591 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,920 we're practising as Christianity Today and where the discussion 592 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,840 was right at the very foundation of the Christian faith. 593 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,960 And how much of that has to speak to us now and kind of 594 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,440 critique the way we're asking these questions? 595 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,320 So you have Athanasius. And if anyone paid attention to 596 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,120 this, Athanasius is actually one of the Church fathers who's 597 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:06,040 quite easy to read. And you can find his major works 598 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,640 for free online or simple books. He's not an obscure figure by 599 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,080 any stretch of the imagination. And Baxter often quotes this 600 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:15,920 particular phrase from Athanasius, and he does in the 601 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,680 lecture. He says, you know, the God, the 602 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,200 God of all, is good and supremely noble by nature. 603 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,160 Therefore he is the lover of the human race. 604 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,840 So number one God is good and supremely noble and therefore 605 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,280 he's the lover of the human race. 606 00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:37,880 So Athanasius is pointing out that the love that God has for 607 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,480 the human race emerges from the very nature of who God is. 608 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,760 This isn't something that's an addition that God decides to do. 609 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,480 This is very core to the absolute central being of who 610 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,040 God is, that he is the lover of the human race. 611 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,680 And then the second one is what then was God being good to do, 612 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,800 seeing that his creation was on the road to ruin and lapsing 613 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,640 into non being. And this is the phrase he uses 614 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,760 when he's talking about the the fall, the story of the fall, 615 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,480 Adam and Eve in the garden. What then was God being good to 616 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,520 do, seeing that his creation was on the road to ruin and lapsing 617 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,360 into non being So for Athanasius, he looks at us and 618 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,120 says the the problem that we have here is that whatever the 619 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,760 whatever the full story symbolises, whether he took that 620 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,760 literally or not, I don't know, but we we take it as speaking a 621 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,480 very important truth to us. Whether or not you're going down 622 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,680 the kind of I wouldn't bother with the the debate about, you 623 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,920 know, is it is it literal at this point? 624 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,840 Not saying it's not a valid debate, but it's not really the 625 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,840 important thing here. The key thing is Athanasius is 626 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,680 looking at this and saying the the problem we have here is we 627 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:54,360 see the human race in Adam begin to dissolve and unravel from the 628 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,920 moment this alienation sets in. And that this is a cosmic 629 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,120 catastrophe that affects not only them, it affects the entire 630 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,320 creation and the the creation itself is at risk of coming 631 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,440 apart at the scenes and dissolving away into non being. 632 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:15,120 And non beings, a technical word in kind of classical philosophy. 633 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,440 So this is not a strange word for them. 634 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,280 And so non being means that they they become they begin to become 635 00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:26,440 less than who they really are in to put it in kind of more modern 636 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,680 terms, that their their authentic, true created identity 637 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:35,120 that is grounded in their creator, that that begins to 638 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,640 dissolve and fall away and disappear into nothingness. 639 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,280 This is this is how Athanasius diagnosis our problem, and this 640 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,160 is the problem of death. The death is now in control and 641 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,680 death is is exerting this influence on the creation to 642 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,720 cause it to begin to dissolve and fall away into nothing. 643 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,480 So what then was God being good to do? 644 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,240 God is good. He loves the human race. 645 00:40:58,240 --> 00:40:59,920 Therefore, what does he do about this? 646 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,800 He becomes flesh, right? The word becomes flesh and flesh 647 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,880 is, it's an important word here because it's Sox. 648 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,480 It's not anthropos. Anthropos means human. 649 00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:13,120 Sox means flesh. Literally, it's the when we talk 650 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,440 about all the sins of the flesh, that's the word Sox. 651 00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:20,280 So Sox and the word Adam as well, it means of the earth or 652 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,920 of the ground. So we're talking about material 653 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:29,480 existence, material 3 dimensional and Newtonian 654 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,600 existence, that the word becomes that and takes on everything 655 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:39,200 that we are, everything that is human, that is inextricably 656 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,480 connected to our physicality, being of the earth and our 657 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,280 mortality. Also being under the this 658 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,760 paradigm of death. He takes on everything that we 659 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,200 are now when he does that. What this means is that the 660 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,720 indestructible God in whom is the ground of all life and light 661 00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:04,240 in everything else, that God has now come and taken up residence 662 00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:09,320 in our flesh. So it's not just a supreme being 663 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,760 who is extremely high up the hierarchy. 664 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,160 Maybe the maybe the, maybe the top of the angelic hierarchy, 665 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,040 you know, the, the chief of all the angels or something that 666 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,800 it's not that that being has come down. 667 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,520 And because that being is so valuable to God the Father, 668 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,880 God's willing to accept him as a sort of in a sort of bait and 669 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:31,480 switch situation with humanity. This is the very God of very God 670 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:37,720 entering fully into our problem and our problem is dissolution 671 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:42,200 and enslavement to death. And by coming into that, what 672 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,520 happens to death when the indestructible immortal one goes 673 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,400 into death, Death is destroyed, right? 674 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,400 Death is obliterated, which is the resurrection, right? 675 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,320 That's the, that's the story of the resurrection in the, in the 676 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,960 Eastern Church. It's a tradition that we tend 677 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,960 not to practise very much in the Western Church, although if you 678 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,440 go down to Bristol Cathedral, you'll see the oldest Christian 679 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,560 artefact in the city is the Anglo-Saxon icon of the 680 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,720 Harrowing of Hell, which is a it's an icon, it's a stone 681 00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:12,800 relief. Then you can, you can see these 682 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,000 eastern icons of the Harrowing of Hell. 683 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,600 It's the depiction of what does Jesus do on Holy Saturday? 684 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,400 Like we have Good Friday and we have Easter Sunday. 685 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,920 Well, what happens on the Saturday And it's a bit more, 686 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:24,640 don't really know. It's kind of a bit, it's a bit 687 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,840 morose and don't know, are we supposed to, are we supposed to 688 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,760 take it as a holiday and go out and do something with the kids? 689 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,520 Or are we supposed to feel sorry and like, how are we supposed to 690 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,720 feel on Holy Saturday? Well, in the East, there is 691 00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:37,040 something you're supposed to be recognising is that Holy 692 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,320 Saturday is the day that Jesus is in death, destroying death 693 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,480 from the inside out, like he's blowing it up from the inside. 694 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,600 And so the, in the depictions of the harrowing of Hell, you often 695 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,720 see death depicted as like the mouth of a dragon. 696 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,760 And you see Jesus leading Adam and Eve out by the hand with a 697 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,680 whole train, you know, of, of people coming out and being 698 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,120 being brought out from the mouth of the, of this dragon. 699 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,200 So here you have death and the, the dragon symbol being used 700 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,840 simultaneously for Satan and death. 701 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:15,280 So for Athanasius, he's saying, look, this Aryan thing destroys 702 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,960 the entire gospel, because if Jesus is not the indestructible 703 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,240 God, he has no life in himself. He is still a created being. 704 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:24,800 Well, a created being is not sufficient to destroy death from 705 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,080 the inside out, only the uncreated one who is the ground 706 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:29,520 of life and existence on everything. 707 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,200 He is the one who can, by virtue of going into death, destroy it 708 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,520 from the inside. And this is the, this is the 709 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,920 earliest or amongst the earliest of articulations about, of what 710 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,200 the Gospel is all about. What is it that Jesus is 711 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,040 actually doing? Why is it that it's essential 712 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,400 that we stand for He must be fully God. 713 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,960 The other side is he also must be fully man, because if he's 714 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,840 not fully man, then he has not fully assumed all of us. 715 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,960 He's left something of us behind. 716 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,080 And that's the that's part of the Gnostic heresy that's 717 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:02,960 saying, well, what we really need to do is escape our 718 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,840 humanity in order to be saved. And that means escaping the the 719 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,400 trap of materiality. So you have a lot of this 720 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,960 discussion in the New Testament around Jesus is a material 721 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,000 human. He, he's Newtonian, 3 722 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,800 dimensional. You know, even though in his 723 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,960 resurrected state he can transcend those Newtonian rules, 724 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:26,040 he still cooks fish and eats it. Peter yes. 725 00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:46,240 Yeah, because of the Trinity. It's because this is a triune 726 00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:50,040 revelation, right? So we have John One in the 727 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,440 beginning was the Word brackets the Son. 728 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,640 The word slash Son was face to face with God brackets the 729 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,560 Father. So what what you have John 730 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,280 testified to, well, it's through the whole New Testament, but if 731 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:11,680 we're thinking about John's gospel, you have Jesus coming to 732 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,040 reveal and communicate the relationship that he has with 733 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,320 the Father. Now, that relationship is not 734 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,120 the relationship of Creator and creation. 735 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,160 This is the relationship of parachoretic oneness, an 736 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,640 invented word right in the Greek, because they had to 737 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,560 invent words for this. They didn't have words for it. 738 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,440 And what what John is saying is that before the world was 739 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,720 created, this relationship existed. 740 00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:37,440 It has and has always existed. And this is important because as 741 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,160 you you kind of get into this critique backs it does on the on 742 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,680 the Westminster Greater Catechism, which is this trying 743 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,000 to define who God is. And it leaves out the fatherhood 744 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,280 of God and it leaves out the love of God is and and this is 745 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,200 very much what the Nicene Creed doesn't do. 746 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,640 So the Nicene Creed begins, we believe in one God, the Father 747 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,520 Almighty and it's even in the word order that's deliberate. 748 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,920 So father becomes becomes before almighty in the Nicene Creed. 749 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,320 And that hierarchy is deliberate. 750 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,520 It's not one God the Almighty Father, it's one God the Father 751 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,520 Almighty. And that's because they're 752 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:17,640 they're emphasising that God's fatherhood is fundamental to 753 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:19,720 everything. There's no point at which God 754 00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:22,800 becomes Father, Arias said. God became Father in the 755 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,120 creation of Jesus. And these guys were saying 756 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,760 absolutely not. There was never a point when the 757 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,560 Father was not the Father, and there was never a point when the 758 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,080 Son was not the Son. In fact, that relationship and 759 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:40,000 in the Spirit that relationship is the very fountainhead from 760 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,960 which creation came, and that is also the very fountainhead from 761 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,800 which the salvation enters into the disordered creation. 762 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,920 So Jesus brings his relationship with the Father into Adamic 763 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,760 humanity, Adam and the, the race of Adam, the progeny of Adam. 764 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,200 So he brings and that is the indestructible life, right? 765 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,960 So this is the other thing we're not supposed to miss that the 766 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,520 the indestructible immortal life is not just because God is 767 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,520 supreme, but it's the it's inextricably tied to the nature 768 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,880 of God, which is other focus and self giving love. 769 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,160 That's why John says God is love and he doesn't say God is 770 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:18,720 loving. He says God is love. 771 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,560 So to say that is to say that the ground of all creation is 772 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,120 this mysterious love. John in John 1 deliberately 773 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,840 takes us back to Genesis 1. So Genesis 1 you have in the 774 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:31,240 beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 775 00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:33,760 We still have a Trinitarian formula even within there, but 776 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,960 it's little mysterious. So John takes us right back to 777 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,280 the beginning, but it's like he goes behind the curtain in 778 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,080 Genesis 1. You see, well, this is what God 779 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,400 is doing in John One, You're saying this is what's going on 780 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,360 within the mind of God as he's doing it, the Son and the Father 781 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,560 face to face with one another. And so you have this image then 782 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,760 of the face to faceness, which comes up over and over again. 783 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,360 Then in in the New Testament, we have the light of the knowledge 784 00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:58,960 of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 785 00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,720 We have the transfiguration narratives, all of this stuff, 786 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,360 this concept of finding the face of God. 787 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,560 You know, Philip saying, show us the Father and it will be enough 788 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:07,760 for us. And Jesus said, if you've seen 789 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,360 me, you have seen the father. I thought if I saw the Father, 790 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,040 I'd spontaneously combust because doesn't the Bible say no 791 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,520 one can see my face and live? Apparently not because he is 792 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,880 Jesus and I'm seeing the face of God and I'm living. 793 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,160 So what does that tell me about what we got wrong about God 794 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,400 before? So all all of this is is kind of 795 00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:29,480 tied together. But so so when he says this is 796 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,640 my beloved son, it's because he's this father Son relation, 797 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,280 the familial relationship is fundamental to all of creation 798 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,080 because it exists within the Trinity. 799 00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:40,240 God doesn't become father. He always is Father. 800 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,640 So therefore, his default relationship to the creation is 801 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,480 the relationship of a father, unlike how it's often 802 00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,920 articulated that he is a judge fundamentally. 803 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,000 And then if you get on the right side of the judge, then he 804 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,280 becomes a father, which is a a misinterpretation of the concept 805 00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,600 of adoption, which we'll come to in a couple of sessions time. 806 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,760 So there is that. There's more to it as well. 807 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:05,360 But is that is that enough? Yeah. 808 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,520 No. Dan, you, you had do you want 809 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,000 this or are you, you OK? Is it a quick one? 810 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,840 Yeah, I don't know what to do with it. 811 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:14,720 Oh, there. Thanks. 812 00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:21,640 We're going slightly over, so leave if you want to, but I 813 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:23,560 will. I want to answer everything, 814 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,120 respond at least. One of the things that I found 815 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:31,440 confusing in the video was the way that Baxter talked about the 816 00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:35,120 Holy Spirit. And I think the Father and the 817 00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,800 Son I can understand because I'm a father and I'm a son and I 818 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,640 sort of have a grid for that. But when Baxter was talking 819 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,960 about the Holy Spirit, he was saying the Holy Spirit is the 820 00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:51,120 Spirit of the Father and he's the Spirit of Jesus and they're 821 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,200 their own person. And to me, I don't understand 822 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,760 how you, the Holy Spirit can be those three things, because 823 00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,160 that's three different things and can't be all of them, 824 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,360 surely. Or if he is the Spirit of the 825 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,960 Father, then why is how is how? How is he or she or they 826 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,520 different to the? Well, welcome, welcome to 827 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,240 Christianity, right, Trinitarian theology. 828 00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:15,640 So I think what we, what we see. And again, Baxter's he, he, he 829 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,520 does go into this in, in the lecture, he says, look, we get 830 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,760 the apostles seeming to make some distinctions, right? 831 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:24,840 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, the 832 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,960 fellowship of the Spirit. So there's something 833 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,040 experiential about that, but they don't, they don't really 834 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,160 elucidate on it. And neither really did the 835 00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,040 church fathers, you know, to quote Hillary, which is the 836 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,440 again, the quote from the, the lecture, Hillary's basically 837 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,120 saying, look, we, we have to argue, we have to actually try 838 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,240 and go into things that we shouldn't even be trying to 839 00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:47,200 articulate. We should just be worshipping 840 00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:49,600 like contentious to engage, receive and worship. 841 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,520 But it's the challenges of the heretics which are forcing us to 842 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,720 articulate and put into words things that we probably ought 843 00:51:56,720 --> 00:51:58,240 not to. Because the more we try to put 844 00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:02,240 it into words, the the risk is the more untrue it becomes that 845 00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:04,360 there is something that is transcendent, that goes beyond 846 00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:06,480 human language, that can't be articulated here. 847 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:11,160 And it's supposed to guide us into encounter and experience 848 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,560 that the the rational mind wants to set all those pieces out. 849 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,680 And but the, but the New Testament doesn't neither, 850 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,040 neither do the Church Fathers. They emphasise the significance 851 00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,400 and the importance of it. But you're, you're not going to 852 00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:32,400 get a, a kind of a, a forensic breakdown that in fact, any 853 00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,000 attempt to break down and apportion roles or 854 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:39,000 responsibilities or things to the Trinity collapses into one 855 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,960 heresy or another much of the time. 856 00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,120 So yes, it is mysterious. The reason my friend put it, you 857 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,280 know, if you want to understand the triune God, you have to be 858 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:51,080 the triune God. And I think that there, there's, 859 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,280 there's certainly a, a good deal of truth to that statement. 860 00:52:55,200 --> 00:53:00,880 But I think that we, what, what we do see, however, is we see 861 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,320 the, we see the dynamic action of Father, Son and Spirit 862 00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,160 working in an interrelated way, in a cooperative way. 863 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,560 So we see a plurality within the God that is 1 God. 864 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,280 But this again, I mean, the we're, we're, we're right. 865 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,520 We're right at the kind of the, the nub of, I mean, all true 866 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:22,880 Christianity is Trinitarian, right? 867 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,600 It's, it's a nice scene. It's what, how seriously we take 868 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,320 that for our understanding of everything else. 869 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:33,200 And so this is not a, this is neither a new idea nor, nor a 870 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,800 new question and new discussion. But the best thing I would say 871 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,400 to do that is Holy Spirit, I need you to, I need you to 872 00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,440 introduce yourself like this is supposed to be relational. 873 00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:44,280 So, OK, show me what? What is it you want me to know? 874 00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,720 We can't deduce our way to the knowledge of God. 875 00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:50,600 And that's another another point in here talking about Nicodemus. 876 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:56,160 You know, Nicodemus is not able to deduce his way. 877 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,160 Yeah. Where was it? 878 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,080 Yeah, in John 3, Jesus shows Nicodemus that he's come to give 879 00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,680 him the Holy Spirit. But what what are the 880 00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:08,640 implications? That the Holy Spirit was never 881 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:10,400 something Nicodemus could get himself. 882 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,160 Actually all, all the New Testament Pharisaical sect, the 883 00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,920 whole point of their religion was to try and get the Holy 884 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,520 Spirit. In fact, they're all trying to 885 00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:21,160 get the spirit. This is what it's about. 886 00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:24,520 They understand to get the Holy Spirit is to return to Eden and 887 00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:28,800 to return to union with God. So they, there's loads written 888 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:30,440 in the rabbinic literature about this. 889 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,800 So they, they know that the spirit is the thing that they 890 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,880 need and they don't have, they don't know how to get it. 891 00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,640 And that's interesting to read the book of Acts with that in 892 00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,560 mind, because then you, you, you see on the day of Pentecost, all 893 00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:46,160 these pilgrims are thinking, hang on a minute. 894 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,200 How is it these guys have got the thing that we wanted? 895 00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:52,280 If they can recognise that this is the spirit, or some of them 896 00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:53,960 can, at least they can recognise this. 897 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,600 And they're, they're completely gobsmacked. 898 00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:58,760 Like how is it that these people have this thing we spent our 899 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,760 years cultivating in kind of mystical practise? 900 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,120 And Paul makes a statement too. He says I was advancing in 901 00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,960 Judaism beyond most Jews of my own age and he's talking about 902 00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,920 mystical cultivation. And then he gets completely all 903 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,120 of that gets completely blown out of the water by his 904 00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,520 encounter. So I think that we we have to we 905 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:22,680 have to drink the spirit and allow that to begin to reform 906 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:27,240 our understanding. But yeah, I think I can't, I 907 00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:30,680 can't give you a more sewn up answer for that one. 908 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,480 Thanks. There was another hand went up. 909 00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:34,360 Was it Sarah? Did you? 910 00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,120 Sarah's right here. Did I see someone else? 911 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:39,120 No. OK. 912 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:42,880 Just just let me. Let me land. 913 00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:49,800 Just make sure we've. Oh, Tim. 914 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:51,320 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 915 00:55:55,320 --> 00:56:00,280 Chris isn't here and he's really strict on time keeping and we 916 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,000 should finish at 9:30. Just to encourage you. 917 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,440 I've been talking to Paul about this for seven years and I'm, 918 00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:12,560 I'm still talking to him and I'm doing a masters in theology and 919 00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:17,480 reading some of these people. This is very deep and incredibly 920 00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:21,280 liberating and helpful and discombobulating. 921 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:27,080 So everything we're all asking is exactly what lots of 922 00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,880 thoughtful people have asked for a long time, which is great. 923 00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:33,600 I really want people to know they can go now because I don't 924 00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:39,040 feel I'm honouring Chris. If I I could chat all night. 925 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,320 But that's why we're a partnership. 926 00:56:42,720 --> 00:56:45,840 However, Paul is going to wrap up now, so you can kind of don't 927 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,800 let him go before. I need a volunteer for the 928 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,760 seminar exercise next week. Tim's volunteered. 929 00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,680 Great. Athanasius of Alexandria, cool. 930 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:03,560 Next, the next lecture, we're going to get into the question 931 00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,080 of holiness. Someone was asking about that 932 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,800 today. How do we understand holiness? 933 00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:13,080 And and also we're going to go a little bit further into the 934 00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,600 implications of inclusion. OK, So what are we talking about 935 00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:18,040 to your question, we're saying that everybody's in. 936 00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:21,400 What does that then mean for how we do everything else? 937 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,000 You know, what are the the implications of that? 938 00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,600 So we're going to begin to unpack that a little bit too, as 939 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:27,120 well as hearing from Tim on Athanasius. 940 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,920 But I'm I'm not running off if you want to, you know, if you if 941 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,120 you, if you got burning questions or want to continue to 942 00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:35,920 discuss. So thanks, Alice. 943 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,040 I'm just going to pray now, but we are really blessed to have 944 00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:44,800 Paul just offering his time to us both in these evenings and on 945 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:49,240 Sunday mornings and to talk to, to literally to have a good like 946 00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:51,960 hour or two hour, really wrestle with these questions. 947 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:55,440 And that is actually a real gift. 948 00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,960 And so should we just give Paul a round of applause for just 949 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,480 being available? Yeah. 950 00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,600 So grateful and being incarnational. 951 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,720 Like he's in the community. He's not sort of buzzing in 952 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,280 doing this thing. You know, he's in, he's amongst 953 00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:16,120 us, you know, married with kids, trying to do life and wrestling 954 00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,280 and trying to bring some of this content to us. 955 00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:19,800 So we're super grateful for that. 956 00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,160 I'm going to pray now because I think the key is, isn't it that 957 00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:28,080 the primary nature of God has always, has always been Father? 958 00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:32,280 That that is incredibly profound and that is nowhere else. 959 00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,600 It's in no other worldview or religion or philosophy like 960 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,880 there's no other fathering anywhere else. 961 00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:45,080 So God, we we just agree with what Dan was was wanting to know 962 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,040 about the Holy Spirit. And we agree with what Paul's 963 00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:52,000 saying that we need you to reveal the Father's love for us. 964 00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:56,000 We need you to do that work in us to reveal yourself to us as 965 00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,800 Father. The Spirit cries out daddy and 966 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,960 I've actually been to Israel, I've seen kids, they really do 967 00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:05,200 run up and down the beach saying ABBA, ABBA. 968 00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,320 That isn't an exaggeration. It isn't over affectionate. 969 00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:13,840 It isn't making God some sort of sort of cosy armchair person is 970 00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,840 exactly how he wants to be identified ABBA daddy, father. 971 00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,200 And so we just cry out to you to reveal that the Father's love to 972 00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,600 us as we go on this journey together. 973 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:25,880 Amen.