1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,720 OK, I'm just going to, but while I introduce Paul, I'm going to 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,720 just geek out for a minute. So can everyone just say geek 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,440 out for a minute? Just say that to the person next 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:12,880 to you. We're going to geek out for a 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,480 minute. OK, In in studying about the 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,840 Bible and the Christian faith in Britain for some reason, 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,360 probably I think in America too, but not in mainland Europe, 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,720 there are two branches called biblical studies and theology. 9 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,240 Can everyone say that? Biblical studies and theology. 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,240 So biblical studies, people who are into biblical studies have a 11 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,720 very different conversation for some reason to than people in 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:41,760 theology. Yeah. 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,320 So biblical studies is when you look closely at the text, you 14 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,240 might be interested in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, and you're 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,600 really about the Bible. You could be Hebrew Bible, Old 16 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,200 Testament, you could be Jesus, the Gospels, you could be Paul. 17 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,800 What would the Bible project be out of the two biblical studies 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:05,400 and theology? Yeah. 19 00:01:05,519 --> 00:01:08,320 So the Bible project is classic biblical studies. 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,920 Then you get a whole branch, a discipline called theology, 21 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:17,560 which is looking at from that, those first witnesses that were 22 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,680 written down in our New Testament, then the church 23 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,960 fathers and mothers response to them, what we now think about 24 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:29,040 the nature of God after the Canon or including that, the 25 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,200 completion of the Canon and then afterwards. 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,920 So can we think this is a harder question? 27 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:35,200 I'm not sure you've known the answer. 28 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:39,320 Can anyone think of anyone who might be more theology than 29 00:01:39,320 --> 00:01:44,720 biblical studies, Hugh? Oh, me. 30 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:47,240 No, no, no, I'm way more biblical studies. 31 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,440 I find theology systematic theology. 32 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,040 Very. I'm just a real newbie on that. 33 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,520 Wayne Grudem systematic theology. 34 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,120 Yep. Who did you say? 35 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,520 Ravi? Yeah, So I think he was he 36 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,280 apologetics. Go on. 37 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:09,479 I don't know if this is being recorded. 38 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,560 You know in Sorry, is it being recorded? 39 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,040 Oh, I was going to make a comment about something that I 40 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:34,110 don't want recorded. OK, OK, just wanted to say that 41 00:02:34,190 --> 00:02:37,350 don't want anyone else to know there's no GDPR in our home. 42 00:02:37,390 --> 00:02:45,080 It's terrible. So most of the teaching people 43 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,120 receive in these kinds of churches that most of us have 44 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,960 been in would be without maybe people realising it through a 45 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,480 biblical studies route. So they're they're engaging with 46 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,840 the text of the Old and the New Testament on the whole. 47 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,400 So a lot of the names and the books and the people that Paul 48 00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:08,640 would have mentioned up front here and also Baxter Kruger 49 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:12,040 would be mentioning are more from a theology stream, which 50 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,320 most of us are fairly illiterate in. 51 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,080 So I'm going to introduce you to a little book. 52 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:23,800 Look how thin it is. And it's very big print easy 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,200 bedtime reading. It's called it. 54 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,600 This is the gateway drug to theology. 55 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:33,520 It's called In the Incarnation by Athanasius of Alexandria, and 56 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,400 it for the introduction alone by CS Lewis on why you should read 57 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,960 original books by people like Plato rather than read what 58 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,600 other people read about them. It's worth its weight in gold. 59 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:45,840 It's one of the best introductions to anything I've 60 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,080 ever read. So it's On the Incarnation by 61 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,480 Athanasius of Alexandria, and it's got an introduction by CS 62 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,400 Lewis. And that is a great start to 63 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,560 what is called systematic theology, which is how we come 64 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,680 to conclusions about God being Trinity, because that word is 65 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,280 not in the New Testament text, but it became a word that we now 66 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:11,480 identify as representing what the Godhead is like. 67 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:18,480 On that happy note, I'm going to introduce Paul and let's pray. 68 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:23,160 And then are we going to do this talk and then Q&A or straight, 69 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:24,680 straight into Q&A? Brilliant. 70 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:30,520 Yeah, that's great. Let's let's just take a few 71 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,200 seconds to quieten our heart in the presence. 72 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,080 Thanks, Alice. We've got another one somewhere 73 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:48,640 behind me. Oh, down there. 74 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:54,480 Cool. So we're we, we, we have tonight 75 00:04:54,480 --> 00:05:01,240 really dedicated to Q and AI. Don't think anybody sent in any 76 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,040 queues on the Padlet or did they? 77 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,720 No. So it's just going to be live, 78 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:10,440 live unscripted. I have no idea what people are 79 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,160 going to ask. Huh. 80 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,520 It's fine. I could do a little magic trick 81 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,720 and write down. I'll write down 5 questions 82 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,920 because I'll do my magic trick. Yeah, it's the same question. 83 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,120 Generally it is, although I'm I understand there's there may be 84 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,520 some quantum curveballs coming from the front table. 85 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:41,040 If we really no cool Actually on looking at it, I see that it's 86 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,840 one of the longest chapters I wrote in the handbook was for 87 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:46,200 week 5. That's because the reason being 88 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,440 with the the video, did everyone watch the video for this way? 89 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,200 So the video obviously there's there's less new content in the 90 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:58,000 talk, but then loads of little tangents open up in the in the 91 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,240 Q&A's. So it's quite, it's quite a good 92 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:08,200 time to consolidate the really the first four sessions, which I 93 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,640 feel like have the most are the most dense in terms of the 94 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,360 content. And then this one is sort of a 95 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,800 bit of a consolidation and looking at kind of application. 96 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:22,440 And then as we go on from here, the, the the lectures are more 97 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,480 about application or about, OK, how does this work out in 98 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,320 different contexts and things. So I think I think that's nice, 99 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:36,480 but what you'll probably find, as I have done, is that the I 100 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,680 mean, I've, I've watched them, you know, a lot of times and I'm 101 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,920 always notice new things and I always think, oh, I'd rewrite 102 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,200 the handbook now, put different emphasis in and, and what have 103 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,040 you. So there's there's a lot more to 104 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:54,280 kind of draw out, but I think Kate is going to do Carl, Bart 105 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:57,560 at some point if you want to. Yeah. 106 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,560 Ready to roll? Got some notes on on Carl. 107 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,600 Well, do you want to do you want to start on Carl? 108 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,920 Why don't you start before, before we before we start 109 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:12,840 chasing rabbits? Yeah. 110 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:13,920 Well, everyone thinks of that question. 111 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,800 You can. Would you prefer to work out 112 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,960 your questions in your group and then someone from the group ask 113 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,640 a question? Or do you are you happy to just 114 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:25,680 speak out? Because we don't. 115 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,720 We want everyone to feel happy to do what they can. 116 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:31,920 I just put a quick hands up of those two options because we 117 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,880 don't want to waste Paul's time. We want to have AQ and a do we 118 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,240 want do we just want a straight Q&A in public like this? 119 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,120 Hands up after Kate does call bots, they have your questions 120 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,480 ready. Do you want to prefer, do you 121 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,560 prefer to have a private conversation than someone 122 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,560 represent your question? Great. 123 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,360 OK, Jane, give your question to Claire. 124 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,520 Great, right? We're just going to do 5 minutes 125 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:11,560 on Carl Bart. This is definitely theology. 126 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:19,240 Absolute theological big dog. So I did cheat on this and I 127 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:24,160 phoned a friend because my younger brother wrote his PhD on 128 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,240 Karl Barn. And actually this is great 129 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:28,720 because he's recently moved to Germany. 130 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,840 So it was like great. I mean, he loves Karl so much 131 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,520 that he moved to Germany. Actually, no, it was actually 132 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,000 because he met a lovely German girl and married her. 133 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,159 But Karl was like another reason for going there. 134 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:44,840 And he learnt German so that he could read Karl's church 135 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:46,640 dogmatics in the original German. 136 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,320 So, you know, like, massive geek fest. 137 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,680 And it was just really great to connect because I'd always felt 138 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:52,920 a bit guilty that I hadn't read his thesis. 139 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:55,920 So I got to ask him about it anyway. 140 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:00,840 So Carl Bart was a Swiss theologian who was born in 1886 141 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,480 and died in 1968. I always find people like that 142 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,360 really interesting, who were essentially Victorian, but then 143 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,600 they lived through like a lot of the 20th century. 144 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:19,440 So he studied theology in German in Germany and he was a pastor. 145 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,120 This is just a bit of background about his life. 146 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,320 He was a pastor in Switzerland for a bit and then went on to 147 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:30,760 become a professor of theology in 1934. 148 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,320 Does anyone know what was happening in Germany in 1934? 149 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,120 I think you all do. He wrote something called the 150 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:43,840 Bahman Declaration, rejecting Nazism and saying that the 151 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,680 Church's allegiance was to 1 Lord Jesus Christ, not Adolf 152 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:51,240 Hitler. He apparently mailed a copy of 153 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,680 this to Hitler and then got kicked out of Germany for 154 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:58,040 refusing to swear an oath of allegiance to him, which I 155 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,880 thought was pretty cool. And then he was back in 156 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,360 Switzerland, his home homeland during the war. 157 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,400 And then he was a significant voice calling for like German 158 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:13,120 penitence and reconciliation across the church in Europe post 159 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,160 war. Very kind of influential. 160 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,200 He was like on the cover of Time magazine once and people said 161 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,320 that his influence really went beyond just the kind of church 162 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,160 and theological spheres. And the other thing to know 163 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,360 about him, because we never liked to pay anyone on a 164 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,360 pedestal. He was married with five kids, 165 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,400 but he basically had a lifelong love affair with his assistant, 166 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,480 which he kind of owned. Like I'm married to this one 167 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,200 person, but I'm actually in love with this other person. 168 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:41,120 Just thought that was interesting from a theological 169 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,960 gonna be real. Let's be real, from a 170 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,400 theological perspective, this is where Ben came in. 171 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,680 He very much kind of reacted against the 19th century 172 00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:56,880 prevalent Protestant liberal theology characterised by 173 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,560 historical criticism of the Bible and scepticism around 174 00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:04,280 classical metaphysical ideas. Let me just translate that for 175 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,840 you. That's from Ben. 176 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:14,760 So we agree. So basically my understanding of 177 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:19,320 that is that 19th century, OK, 1800s talking like the Victorian 178 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,040 times when it was like the Enlightenment and there were 179 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:30,120 loads of scientific and technological advances and we 180 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,160 were being like pretty smart. Like we were kind of like in 181 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:34,600 Europe. We were like dominating the 182 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,280 world. It was the big old like colonial 183 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,760 times. And we're still very much like 184 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:43,720 perceived ourselves as Christian, but there was a lot 185 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,960 of kind of probably like really healthy, like criticism going on 186 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:49,800 of the Bible. Like for the first time, people 187 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,240 were like, oh, maybe the world wasn't created in seven days and 188 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,360 stuff like that. So all of that was kind of going 189 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,680 on. But also during that time, the 190 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:05,480 theology of the Trinity kind of got a bit lost because 191 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:11,000 everything was about like what you can experience and like 192 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:16,600 cognitively know and what you can kind of scientifically 193 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,600 prove. So I like bigger kind of 194 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,440 metaphysical ideas like the Trinity just kind of got 195 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:23,680 dropped. Like people just weren't really 196 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:28,160 interested in them. And Bart basically was, I think 197 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,800 then kind of turn of the century happened and then the First 198 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,880 World War happened. And Ben was describing that 199 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,840 basically the First World War was just like this awful 200 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,720 bloodbath, like European nations, like warring against 201 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,960 each other. And everyone basically realised, 202 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,880 Oh my gosh, like we're not actually civilised. 203 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,960 Like we're not this like amazing, like civilised, like 204 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,240 moral amazing people that we thought we were. 205 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,400 And so a lot of people are asking a lot of questions, 206 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,800 including Carl, sorry, Ben calls him Carl, which I find really 207 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:06,800 funny, including Bart. And he was basically really 208 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,560 disillusioned that the liberal, his liberal Protestant liberal 209 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:14,240 theologian teachers had supported this war that he 210 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,320 thought was absolutely awful. And then when kind of war was 211 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,400 brewing again, he really very strongly was like, no to it. 212 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,960 I mean, people like Bonhoeffer were really influenced by Bart 213 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:30,680 and the Confessing Church. So he would kind of reacted 214 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:36,840 against that basically and was like, no, we basically put God 215 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,440 in a box. Like God is so much bigger than 216 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,000 our kind of like western liberal ideas. 217 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,880 And he kind of went back and recovered, basically recovered 218 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,600 the doctrine of the Trinity in a way. 219 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,520 Like Ben would say he's like a post like a post liberal 220 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,960 basically because he didn't interestingly, like he didn't go 221 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,120 back to sort of like pre liberal ideas. 222 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:06,720 Like he was very against what's that word predestination so that 223 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:13,320 it's like when Calvin and all of that lot thought that God had 224 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,320 already chosen who was going to be saved and who wasn't. 225 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,120 So Carl was like, no, I don't believe in that. 226 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,880 He was really into the Trinity. He was really into God revealing 227 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,200 himself through Jesus Christ, the person of Jesus Christ. 228 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,360 And that he thought basically that the Bible is really 229 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:39,000 important in in as much as it is like a witness and a testimony 230 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,280 to the person of Jesus Christ points to Jesus and Jesus 231 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,800 reveals the Trinity. So that was his big thing. 232 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,840 Yes, I already said he rejected Calvinist's doctrine of 233 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:54,360 predestination. And he did get accused of being 234 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,760 a universalist. And he said, quote, I do not 235 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,840 believe in universalism, but I do believe in Jesus Christ, 236 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:08,080 reconciler of all. And most famously for me, I 237 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,800 listened to a talk by our friend Jared in our prayer room in 238 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,040 France a few years ago when we were living there. 239 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:21,320 He was talking about the cross, and he created Carl Bart. 240 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,280 And apparently one of his students once asked him, Doctor 241 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:31,720 Bart, when were you saved? When was the moment when you 242 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:37,680 were saved and Carl? Bart replied, I was saved about 243 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:43,000 3:00 on a Friday afternoon on a hill outside of Jerusalem in 33 244 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,640 AD, and I thought that was really cool. 245 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,880 Thanks. Thanks, Kate. 246 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,200 Well, yeah, great. And I think we didn't. 247 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,480 There's no real space in this book, but we'll often talk about 248 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,320 the two Karls of the 20th century, the Bart being the 249 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,720 Protestant 1 and Karl Rana being the Catholic one, having very 250 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,040 parallel conversations in the in the church. 251 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:19,920 Karl Rana influencing Vatican 2 very heavily, and Bart kind of 252 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,320 being the the sort of epicentre of good quality modern theology 253 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,280 in in my view. But that was great. 254 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,440 Thanks. Should we get into Q&A? 255 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:40,640 Who wants to go first? Jane, it's coming down your way. 256 00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:49,860 Right. OK, you, you spoke at church 257 00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:54,340 once and you said there's a bit in the Bible where it says God 258 00:16:54,820 --> 00:16:58,460 sent an evil spirit to I don't know who it was. 259 00:16:58,740 --> 00:17:01,180 And you said I don't believe that was true. 260 00:17:01,180 --> 00:17:06,839 Do you remember so and that I've never heard someone say that 261 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:12,040 before, which really blew my mind and thought, wow, wow. 262 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:20,160 So in the Old Testament, when we read or hear what you read, 263 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:28,319 don't you don't hear them when we read God doing something 264 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,560 vengeance. So we've I'm thinking about lot 265 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,560 and solemn, you know, who was it his wife and that ran away and 266 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,800 she turned to salt. That's like, you know, whether 267 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,800 that's a story or not. But when we're reading that, 268 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:51,040 would you say that we have to read it from God is good. 269 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,840 Therefore, there has to be another explanation for a God 270 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,240 that would kill. Do you see what I mean? 271 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:00,960 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 272 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,160 And and I guess there's a lot that question sort of is a is an 273 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:06,960 umbrella for a lot of specific points. 274 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,160 We could, you know, go to see you mentioned Lot and his wife, 275 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,480 but you could you got a long list of things you could choose. 276 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,000 I think the one the I don't remember talking about in 277 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,560 church, but I think I know what you mean. 278 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,520 Is it when it talks about an evil spirit from the Lord went 279 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,240 out to Seoul? Was it about King Saul? 280 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,200 Yeah. And, and I probably said, which 281 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,520 is what I believe is that God doesn't send evil spirits 282 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:32,720 anywhere because they don't come from him. 283 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,040 So yeah. And I guess there are a lot, 284 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,720 there are lots of kind of nuanced, different, you know, we 285 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,520 can kind of categorise acts of divine violence or parts of the 286 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,920 Scripture which appear to paint God as the origin of evil and 287 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,200 these sorts of things. There's nuances to them, but we 288 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,160 could kind of try and group them all into one without sort of 289 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,200 spending weeks teasing out individual ones, which isn't a 290 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,880 bad thing to do. But I think it's more, the more 291 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,120 the question is, what is our hermeneutic lens? 292 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,280 What is our, what is the principle or set of principles 293 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,160 by which we come to read the Scripture? 294 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,800 And to pick up, you know, Kate's quote, Bart's answer to that was 295 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,280 well, as Christ, you know, the Sunday school joke, the person 296 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,120 of Christ is the lens through which we're reading everything 297 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:22,080 else. So if something doesn't look 298 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,720 like Jesus, then there's a problem. 299 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,080 And we don't immediately know where the problem is. 300 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,000 Maybe the problem's on our side. Maybe there's a problem on the 301 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,360 translation. Maybe there's a problem on the 302 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:35,720 Texas, but there is a problem. So to be to take sides with 303 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,080 Jesus is commit to saying to saying, well, where we come up 304 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,840 against things that do not look like Jesus, we have to 305 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,200 acknowledge there is a problem. And we kind of need the guidance 306 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,680 of the Holy Spirit to know how to how to process that one out. 307 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,200 And I think that, you know, the the confession of the church in 308 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,360 the Nicene Creed is that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and 309 00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:02,120 giver of life, not the author of death. 310 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:08,280 So Jesus, Oh no, yeah, Jesus says this John, isn't it? 311 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,720 The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. 312 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,840 I've come that they may have life in all of its fullness. 313 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,280 So let's let's read that literally in the context of 1st 314 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:19,760 century Jewish people listening to. 315 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:25,200 Him they have a whole catalogue of the death and destruction and 316 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,320 things that are that's there and he's saying the thief comes to 317 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,000 steal, kill and destroy when he says I've come to give life that 318 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,240 is directly challenging their conceptions of God because will 319 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,000 they believe God gives life and death. 320 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:45,600 So will we miss that because we're not in that in their 321 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,760 context, hearing it how how extremely challenging that is. 322 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:58,200 So a a lot of the the first few centuries as the scriptures kind 323 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,640 of getting laid down in in Canon, like what's officially in 324 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,040 and what's out? The question of well, how do we 325 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:11,360 read it is very central. So, but, but I'm, I'm of the 326 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:13,560 view that it's also central in the New Testament. 327 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:19,080 If you come to read the New Testament with this, if, if, if 328 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,840 I, I would suggest it to you like this, assume you're with 329 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,040 the, you're with the apostles in the New Testament and you've had 330 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,040 your entire paradigm about who God is completely blown out of 331 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,920 the water by Christ. You still don't really have a 332 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:33,920 clue what that means. Like that's evident. 333 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,640 You look at you look at the church, even post the 334 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,960 resurrection, you still don't have a clue what's going on. 335 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,360 They're arguing about all kinds of different things that are 336 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:46,800 apparently inconsequential. And there's a development of 337 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,560 understanding and theology in in within even the the just the 338 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:51,960 canonised books of the New Testament. 339 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,200 So they're wrestling with stuff they they have not got it all 340 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,160 sewn up whatsoever. So the idea that now that Jesus 341 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,760 has risen from the dead, we finally got it all figured out. 342 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,760 That's not their story. So come with a come with a 343 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:07,200 thought. What, what's it look like to 344 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:12,360 read the works of the New Testament as that the, the 345 00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:17,240 Apostolic witnesses trying to work this stuff out, They're 346 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,680 trying to process out what they have encountered and what its 347 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,440 implication is for how they understand everything else. 348 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,040 We get a lot of that in the this whole discussion of, well, what 349 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,520 does this mean about the Jewish law? 350 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,960 That's that's quite overtly how it plays out in the New 351 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,120 Testament. But actually, if you, if you 352 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,360 keep that in mind, you'll find it's not just there that it 353 00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:38,160 plays out. It plays out in a lot of 354 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,840 different ways in the, in, in kind of the pastoral 355 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,480 application. They're trying to figure all 356 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,400 sorts of things out. Well, how are we supposed to 357 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,560 organise, you know, what, what's this supposed to look like? 358 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,040 And you even have some of that being preempted in the, in the, 359 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,520 in the Gospels where Jesus says things like, look, people are 360 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,320 going to come along and say you're not allowed to get 361 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:58,680 married. Don't believe that. 362 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,840 But there's anticipations of certain, you know, places where 363 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,640 people are going to fall off, you know, off the wayside with 364 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:14,680 this stuff. I wrote a paper a little while 365 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,480 ago, maybe last year even, or the year before. 366 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,320 It's a bit of a thought experiment. 367 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,360 Let's what, what do we see if we follow the, we follow the life 368 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:31,000 and thinking of the apostle Peter, assuming we accept that 369 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,040 Peter wrote the, his, the first epistle of Peter, which I know 370 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,240 is not uncontroversial, but let's just go with tradition. 371 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,680 Assume he wrote that it's part of the, the, you know, the 372 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,520 Petrine witness, Peter's witness. 373 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,040 What is his, Where does he begin and where does he end up? 374 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,400 So I, I, I wrote, I wrote a paper on that because you see, 375 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:53,840 you see kind of him going 2 steps forward, one step back, 376 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,040 him having a certain perspective of something. 377 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,760 You get this whole thing where he has the vision of the blanket 378 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,600 comes down from heaven and he thinks it's a demon. 379 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,640 He doesn't think it's God. He rebukes it. 380 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,280 You know, he's like, no, Lord, this can't be right. 381 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,760 And so clearly he is going on to have experiences in the Holy 382 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,840 Spirit that are so challenging to him that he thinks it's, he 383 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,920 thinks he might be being demonically deceived. 384 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,760 And they're challenging the theological paradigms that he 385 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,400 had inherited as a good Jewish boy in the, you know, 1st 386 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,040 century AD. So if that's going on with him, 387 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,040 I think we ought to pay more close attention to that when 388 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,880 we're approaching the the the Jewish scriptures. 389 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,000 Because what does Christ do when he appears in the backdrop of 390 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,240 the Jewish scriptures? Well, for the people who were 391 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,000 steeped in the Jewish scriptures and little else, he completely 392 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:52,280 blew that world apart. So we shouldn't then think we 393 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,960 get an easy ride when we kind of parachute into different parts, 394 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,720 you know, of the of the law prophets or anything and just 395 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,320 think that it will, it will kind of come necessarily fall in a 396 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:10,000 very straightforward way. So my but, but I am committed to 397 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,680 I'm going to side with Jesus, right. 398 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,080 And I think this is what's going on in the mount of 399 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,240 Transfiguration. You have Moses and Elijah both 400 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,760 appear with Jesus on the mountain. 401 00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:20,040 Moses clearly represents the law. 402 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,000 Elijah clearly represents the prophet. 403 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,840 So this is unambiguous. The they they are the two 404 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,920 witnesses of the the broader portion of the Jewish Canon. 405 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,800 When they appear, Peter tries to venerate all three of them 406 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,240 equally by putting up 3 tabernacles. 407 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,800 As soon as he tries to do that, they're all obscured from view 408 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,760 by a cloud. He hears the voice of the Father 409 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,480 saying this is my son, listen to him. 410 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,600 And then Moses and Elijah have disappeared. 411 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,520 How are we supposed to read that? 412 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,640 I think we can read it statements like Jesus says to 413 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,440 the Pharisees. You think that you search the 414 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,480 scriptures because you believe in the scriptures. 415 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,360 You have life, yet these are the same that testify about me, yet 416 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:04,920 you fail to come to me to receive life. 417 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:11,480 So right there Jesus is telling us what's going on in this Canon 418 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:17,680 of of spiritual, prophetic, religious literature is all 419 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,400 converging on his arrival. Well, when you kind of parachute 420 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,240 into different stories in the Old Testament, if that's not if, 421 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,440 when, if we don't have that in view, we're not reading it with 422 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,880 Jesus as the truth. We can we can read it another, 423 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,320 we might be reading it another way. 424 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,760 Again, it's like the historical critical method or whatever. 425 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,440 We can be be looking at it from all sorts of different angles. 426 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,760 But if we're reading it in a Christian way, which is to say 427 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,400 we believe that there is a prophetic, metaphysical, 428 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,880 supernatural witness that is run coming throughout all of this 429 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,000 that is converging on the arrival of the person of Jesus. 430 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:56,400 And in in his arrival, all of all other visions die. 431 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,160 All other views are of of God are taken out of the equation 432 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,960 and they must submit to the the headship of Christ and who he 433 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,120 reveals himself and his father in the spirit to be. 434 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,200 Everything else has to has to be worked out. 435 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,360 Now, does that does that create problems for how we read some of 436 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:16,520 the Old Testament? Yes, it does. 437 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,520 But as you've heard me say many times, show me somebody who 438 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,560 doesn't have problems with something that the Old Testament 439 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,600 says, right? And you're going to have 440 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,560 problems with what's written there because there's a lot 441 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,880 that's problematic written there. 442 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,400 I would suggest you kind of get to choose which category of 443 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,960 problems you want to have. And I think again, I'm going to, 444 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,280 I'm going to side with Jesus on this one. 445 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,840 He, he, he's the life giving spirit. 446 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,240 He's not the author of death. Death is called the enemy that 447 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,440 is the final, the final enemy to be ultimately done away within 448 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:55,000 the New Testament. It's not that death is an 449 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,320 emergent property of God. And I think that I would argue 450 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:00,880 you, you go to the Genesis story. 451 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,560 It's conspicuous that in, in the in the, in the, the, the account 452 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,440 of the fall of Adam and Eve, it doesn't say in the day you eat 453 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,560 the fruit I will kill you. It just says in the day you eat 454 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,160 the fruit, you will die, not I will kill you. 455 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,560 Adam then immediately is afraid of God. 456 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,040 He's running from the one who he who he thinks is the source of 457 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,320 the death. And but that's not that's never 458 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,880 even what the curse said. The curse said it was a there 459 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,600 was a this is a consequence of what will happen. 460 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,280 But I'm not the author or the originator of that consequence. 461 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:37,320 And you see the New Testament wrestles with these ideas. 462 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,200 You know, no one who is tempted should say I'm being tempted by 463 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,040 God because God is neither tempted by evil nor does he 464 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,480 tempt by evil. They have these kind of 465 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:47,960 statements. So clearly people are wrestling 466 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,720 with us all. How am I supposed to understand 467 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:50,880 or relate to God? And they're correct. 468 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,400 And they're saying, no, God is not the author of any of that. 469 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,200 Don't, don't ascribe to him something that doesn't belong to 470 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,320 him. OK, well, where, where does it 471 00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,680 come from then? Well, that's the problem. 472 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:01,800 That's called the problem of evil. 473 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,480 I mean, that is the problem. That's everybody's problem. 474 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,320 So, but, but again, I'm going to work that out. 475 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,240 I'm going to side with Jesus on that one, even if that means 476 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,160 taking sides against what I perceive the Bible to be saying 477 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,480 or maybe what it actually is saying. 478 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,560 And again, we can discuss because I don't, I don't always 479 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,560 know. Maybe I've maybe we've misread 480 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,720 it. Maybe it didn't actually say 481 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,360 what we thought it did, or maybe it really did and it was wrong. 482 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,360 I'm OK with that because all visions have to have to submit 483 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:36,960 to the revelation of God in Christ. 484 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,840 Thanks, Kate. Just to ask like a quick follow 485 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,160 up question, because that was kind of going to be my question 486 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,240 was like, where like how far do we take this? 487 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,200 Like God didn't. As far as we need to. 488 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,760 Yeah, God didn't actually say kill those people, but could you 489 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:01,320 comment on like from your perspective, like where is the 490 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,240 church on this? Because I feel like there is 491 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:12,240 this kind of like protectiveness around the word of God, which 492 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,600 probably is like, you know, part of that like comes from really 493 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,160 good intentions of wanting to like honour it. 494 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,760 And but I don't feel like everyone's there. 495 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,360 But then I don't think anyone would like a lot of what you're 496 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:28,360 saying. Like makes sense. 497 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,920 Like, no, we don't agree with everything in the Old Testament. 498 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,760 So what where do you see the church like broadly is on there? 499 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,880 And is it moving? Is it shifting? 500 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:42,120 It's definitely shifting. I think that I, I mean, I've, 501 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,680 I've had the, I, I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's a 502 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,400 privilege or not. It's just a fact. 503 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,680 I mean, I've been in a lot of backroom conversations over the 504 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:54,120 years with church denomination church leaders and 505 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,040 denominational leaders, you know, stream leaders who will 506 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:03,440 candidly admit that they do not believe what the majority of 507 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,520 their denominations believe on certain key issues, but don't 508 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,760 tell anyone because they'll get lynched by the denominations if 509 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,240 they knew, right? I mean, I've, I've been in a lot 510 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:16,880 of those kind of conversations and I think that against sort of 511 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,120 surveying church history, that anxiety has been there. 512 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,280 You see that in the some of the patristics, they're like, we 513 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,400 don't really want to be too public about saying XYZ or 514 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,040 speculating about these things here because if we do, people 515 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,640 might take it the wrong way and then we'll have chaos on our 516 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,160 hands. You know, we'll have a problem. 517 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,520 So you see throughout church history, this this issue of 518 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:42,800 those who are whether rightly or wrongly responsible for leading 519 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,880 or decision making within the church community are gatekeeping 520 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,080 certain topics of conversation. And that's happened right from 521 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:54,360 right from the beginning. Now, what we're talking about 522 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,400 here is nothing new about what we're talking about here. 523 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,320 It's not even anything new in literal terms. 524 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,400 I mean, these kinds of conversations you talk about 525 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,760 bot, I mean, this is early 20th century. 526 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:09,440 This is not, this isn't like a recent discussion, but for many 527 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,520 people in the church context who've never encountered 528 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,600 theology without going to sort of a specialist institution to 529 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,640 learn it, it's like, wow, OK, I've never kind of considered 530 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:19,960 these things. But it's not that those things 531 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,320 haven't been there. It's that there's been some sort 532 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,200 of pastoral gatekeeping around. Well, do we like what questions? 533 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,680 What questions are valid questions that are helpful for 534 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,640 people at different stages of their spiritual growth? 535 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,200 Maybe I could put it that way, if I'm putting it kindly. 536 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,280 Not, not everybody needs to agonise about whether or not 537 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,400 Lot's wife really did turn into a pillar of salt. 538 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,520 That for most people, most of the time, that's not really an 539 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,160 important question. Except I think that right now 540 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,520 talking about things shifting, especially in the last 10 years, 541 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,720 the, the mass proliferation of, you know, the, the walls of the 542 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,480 gatekeeping of knowledge has collapsed across all 543 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,400 disciplines. So I don't think anybody can 544 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,520 afford to do that anymore. And hence, hence a course like 545 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:03,760 this. I mean, you would normally not 546 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,200 be addressing this sort of topic outside of a seminary or an 547 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,720 academic environment. That would be very specialist 548 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,520 saying, OK, we're taking people and we're, this isn't for 549 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:13,680 everybody. It's a kind of backroom 550 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,000 conversation, but all the backroom conversations are out 551 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,760 in the open. And I think that it's questions 552 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,680 people are asking and, and conversations they're having 553 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,880 anyway. So we, and I think the Holy 554 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,040 Spirit's behind that because I think it, it, it draws us 555 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:30,120 forward through, through points of spiritual growth. 556 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,920 So things are most definitely shifting, but they're also 557 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,200 shifting in all kinds of directions. 558 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,680 They're not, it's not kind of a shift in One Direction 559 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,040 necessarily, but there are huge shifts across all denominations. 560 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,720 And you know that. And especially as said, the last 561 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,320 10 years, acceleration that's been huge. 562 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,440 So Sam had a hand, then Nikki, then Tim, if I can go that way 563 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,800 around Sam, you, you were up first, right? 564 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,800 I think, I think you did. Was that right? 565 00:33:53,840 --> 00:34:02,160 Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is a slightly long this 566 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,160 question with a run up the little the run up is I was on 567 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,800 I've I've been like and it sort of relates to the to the to the 568 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:18,920 law, but also just the law as an example of how God chooses 569 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:19,920 trivial himself. Right. 570 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:26,400 So was that a had AI had a sermon the other week where 571 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,800 which is talking about eunuchs just for some reason, who knows 572 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,120 why. I think it was talking about the 573 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,159 eunuch. The the main point was like the 574 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:39,320 eunuch that appears in Acts who's like baptised. 575 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:45,679 Yeah. And you've got like there were 576 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:47,639 like 3 reference points that were pulled out. 577 00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:51,120 One was from the law, one's from the prophet Isaiah and one was 578 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:59,280 there and you have the the in the law, eunuchs are banned from 579 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,360 like the temple grounds, like the Tabernacle, like can't go 580 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:11,800 in, can't participate. Then in Isaiah, God's like, oh, 581 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,960 well, to the eunuchs, I'm going to give them a name better than 582 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,120 sons and daughters and they're going to be completely part of 583 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:23,320 the whole thing. And then you have Philip then 584 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:29,600 like being like teleported to run alongside A chariot and 585 00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:37,160 reveal who Jesus is to this guy who's reading Isaiah and then is 586 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,000 like, oh, well, why don't you baptise me right here, right 587 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,440 now? Because you know, why not? 588 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:50,160 Why can't I be, you know, and I feel like there's I've, when 589 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,920 I've been trying to navigate like where, how do I, how do I, 590 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:59,560 how do I find the heart of God? I've thus far been running with 591 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:05,080 a narrative of God does some sometimes does stuff that God 592 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,080 doesn't really agree with or like wouldn't, wouldn't like 593 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,600 this. Like he's doing something, but 594 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,680 it's not like that thing he's doing is revealing his heart. 595 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,920 And I feel like the law in many respects, like has a whole load 596 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,120 of stuff in it, which is like not designed to reveal the heart 597 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,920 of God, right. But I'd still personally believe 598 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,320 it came from God. But like, but I don't know. 599 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,440 I'm, I'm still trying to place it of like, OK, some stuff can 600 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,400 come from God that doesn't necessarily reveal the heart of 601 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,040 God, which then God addresses in the same, you know, in the same 602 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,120 Old Testament. It's like, well, actually, you 603 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,880 know, I know that this is, you know, been said, but what I 604 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,080 really want is for these people to be my sons and daughters and 605 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,640 then in Christ, where everyone, you know, can be so and 606 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,880 everyone's welcome and doesn't really matter whether you're 607 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,840 welcome the temple or not, you're welcome and you know, 608 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:04,040 right with a father. So I guess like in I'm one, it's 609 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,600 This is why I'm a long run up because I'm trying to place 610 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:12,320 things of like, how much room is this still for God doing things 611 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,360 that God's not like fully behind? 612 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,360 Like maybe God turns someone, someone to salt in a moment, But 613 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,800 like that's not like, oh, that we need to study that and that's 614 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:28,160 going to reveal the heart of God or or, you know, and I guess the 615 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,120 bit this the next question, which is possibly like one for a 616 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:37,120 future time is, you know, if the Lord did come from God and it 617 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,880 doesn't really reveal God's heart, like what was it? 618 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,240 What was the purpose? Yeah. 619 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:42,320 Yeah. Sure. 620 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,360 Well, let me let me there's a there's a great point. 621 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,000 I mean, I think just just to try and answer quickly without, you 622 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,040 know, as again chasing the rabbit. 623 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:54,280 I think what was the law for? Well, Paul says that he says the 624 00:37:54,280 --> 00:38:01,240 law was for the purpose of increasing sin, not for 625 00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:02,680 revealing the heart I've got it's for the purpose of 626 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:07,880 increasing sin. Yes, the story is the law comes 627 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,240 from God, but that's not actually what Jesus says. 628 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,720 He says the the law. He said Moses gave you the law. 629 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,280 Now when he said that, is he trying to say Moses is the 630 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,560 originator of it or like what I mean, go, go talk to him about 631 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,160 it, right? Process it. 632 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,360 I think. I think I'll circulate the paper 633 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,840 I did on Peter for everyone, because my argument in the paper 634 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:38,560 is that by the time you get to Peter's epistles, you have this 635 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:44,000 very weird, what seems to be a sidetrack into a discussion of 636 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:49,080 the story of Noah with from Peter, which I've never heard 637 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:55,320 taught on well, because of the the language in it is very 638 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,400 strange. And you think, what on earth is 639 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,240 he trying to say here when he's talking about it? 640 00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:02,240 And if you're not not familiar with it, it's, I mean, it's a 641 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,160 it's a long passage, but the the headlines are he says, you know, 642 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,760 for this reason, the gospel was also preached to those who are 643 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,280 now dead brackets, those who disobeyed long ago in the time 644 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,400 of Noah. OK, so we've got this. 645 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,480 He throws this foray out there. The gospel was preached to those 646 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,400 who are dead, who died in Noah's time. 647 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:29,200 Why was it preached to them? He says that that they might be 648 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:35,160 judged brackets according to man with regard to their flesh, but 649 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,560 live according to God with regard to the spirit. 650 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:45,320 So what what are you saying? Well, I mean, I'm not I'm not 651 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,480 actually sure it's that difficult if we just take a step 652 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:48,840 back without the theological bias. 653 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,920 I think Peter is trying to say he's trying to work out this 654 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,760 stuff. And I think the Noah's flood is 655 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,320 the ultimate one. I mean, you could say you could 656 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:02,360 pick up different, different examples, but Noah's flood is 657 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,040 the big one because it's the whole planet And, and he says. 658 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,160 He says, well, the gospel went to them even though they were 659 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,200 dead, so Jesus went to them. Why? 660 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:19,040 So that although according to man they died in the flesh, so 661 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,920 they physically died, and then according to man they were 662 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,440 judged. In fact, that's what he's 663 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,040 saying. So to paraphrase it, I think 664 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,080 what Peter is saying is because although in man's opinion they 665 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,480 were judged through physical death, actually in God's opinion 666 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,160 they live by the Spirit, hence why Jesus went down to them. 667 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:40,840 I think that's what Peter is saying. 668 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,280 I don't actually think there's another sane way to read that. 669 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:48,040 If you kind of put it together, and I think this is Peter, as 670 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,520 there are a number of points in the New Testament where there 671 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,520 are acknowledgments. If we can't. 672 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,480 I haven't got a logical answer for you about why the Old 673 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,040 Testament says this, but here's what Jesus does. 674 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,320 You get the beginning of Hebrews. 675 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,120 It's the same thing. It quotes the Psalm. 676 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,400 What is man that you're mindful of him, the Son of man, that 677 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:03,920 you'd even think of him. You made him for a little while 678 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,200 lower than God or lower than the angels, depending on whether 679 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,960 you're reading Greek or Hebrew. You, you, you crowned him with 680 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,080 love and compassion and have set all things under his feet. 681 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,280 And then the writer of the Hebrews says, but we don't see 682 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,760 that. We don't see everything under 683 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,560 the feet of man. It's a mess out there. 684 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,160 Like if you take a look out the window recently and definitely 685 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,640 everything is not under the feet of man. 686 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,560 So what do we do with that Bible verse, this promise about the 687 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,480 status of humanity in God's economy? 688 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,720 And then the writer says, yes, it's true, we don't see that. 689 00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:35,280 But there is something we do see. 690 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,560 And we see Jesus, who is the man and we see he has ascended and 691 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,200 has sat down at the right hand of the Father. 692 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,680 So we actually see all things under his feet. 693 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,800 Now we're not seeing all things under our feet because people 694 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:49,960 still get sick, they still die. There's they're still suffering, 695 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:51,520 they're still evil. There's still these things that 696 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,240 shouldn't be there. Yeah. 697 00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:57,400 And he, he or she, the writer of Hebrews doesn't even attempt to 698 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,240 give a rational answer to that, doesn't attempt to explain it. 699 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,880 It says, yeah, I'm not, I'm not saying that stuff isn't going 700 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,920 on, but I'm saying I see Jesus and everything is under him. 701 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,800 And then there's an invitation back to encounter. 702 00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:13,280 So there are, there are these points where again, we, we kind 703 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,120 of skip over them because we're not quite in, I think in the 704 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,840 mind of the of the writer, what it is that they're wrestling 705 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,440 with. So, so I again, I put it in this 706 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,880 paper, I acknowledged I'm making assumptions about Peter's 707 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,360 authorship of these things and I put it together in in a kind of 708 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,760 a rough chronology of key events and things that Peter happened, 709 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,440 had that happened to Peter and that he said ending with the 710 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,480 epistle where he's addressing this question of all right, 711 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,240 well, now how do I, now that I've had this lifetime of 712 00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:43,880 experiences of Christ and the risen Christ? 713 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,480 Well, how do I read this book, all these books, rather, it's 714 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,200 not a book right for them. How do I, how do I interpret 715 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,760 these stories that I've had my whole life? 716 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,280 Well, he's Peter's been through the ringer. 717 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,640 I mean, his worldview has been blown upside down multiple 718 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,720 times. And now he's kind of sitting 719 00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:04,480 down to well, OK, I guess the only way I can process it is. 720 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:06,480 Yeah. Well, I'm he because he he he 721 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,080 doesn't have a he doesn't have a kind of modern worldview to say, 722 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,000 well, it didn't happen. I mean, he assumes it happened, 723 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,240 like literally it happened a flood, you know, and all the 724 00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:15,320 rest. So he assumes that and he says, 725 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,920 I guess it's man's perspective that they were judged then, but 726 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,440 it's God's perspective that they weren't. 727 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,560 I mean, just plug, just plug it back in. 728 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:23,680 I mean, you can go see it for yourself. 729 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,520 Read, read the epistle and see, see what you think. 730 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:31,640 But I think, but, but to me that it's this, this stuff was always 731 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,840 there kind of saying to us, I'm not, I'm not giving you a neat 732 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,480 answer. Like Jesus hasn't given us any 733 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:39,760 answer. He's given us himself. 734 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,160 And and I think it's within the Apostolic tradition to wrestle 735 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,680 with the Bible that way. And history is also on my side, 736 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,400 because that's also what the patristics do, right? 737 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,120 The early, the early church fathers, they they wrestle with 738 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,640 the Bible in the same way. You know, you have origin of 739 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,640 Alexandria. You know, the the really the 740 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,760 father of biblical interpretation in among the 741 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,280 church fathers. His whole thing is that the the 742 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,320 entire scripture is a kind of allegorical code that's 743 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,120 revealing Jesus to you. And if you haven't seen that, 744 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,280 you haven't read it, right? I mean, he's, he's really strong 745 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,600 on that. So, so I think we, again, we, 746 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:25,720 we've had, we've inherited an approach to the book that is in 747 00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:30,680 some ways out of sync with the historic Apostolic witness of 748 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:35,080 the way that we deal with the books, which is not, not, it's 749 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,400 not easy or convenient. It's also, it's not, it's not 750 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:38,760 great for an alpha course, right? 751 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,880 You know, or you, you get people in, OK, here's the AB CS. 752 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:43,880 You know, it's not good for AB CS. 753 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,160 So I think that it, it means people might OK pastorally, we 754 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:49,760 kind of want to avoid that sort of discussion. 755 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:54,280 Just believe it and get on with it, you know, which I can't do. 756 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,720 And I guess you can't either, otherwise you probably wouldn't 757 00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:59,400 be here. But is that we're going to go to 758 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:13,480 Nikki, then Tim, then Pete. So I'm, I'm kind of, I'm taking 759 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,520 on what you're saying and you may have answered this, but I 760 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,960 kind of yeah, sure, go for it. My question in my head. 761 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:25,160 So kind of half listening. And so I've got a kind of, are 762 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,120 we picking and choosing the bits that are easier for us? 763 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,360 I I kind of go Old Testament God little bit kind of difficult 764 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,880 because there's so many things written there that you kind of 765 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,080 you want to brush over you don't, you know, if people ask 766 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,880 you and they're the points that people will ask you, what about 767 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:44,480 that? What you know, does that sound 768 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,240 good? Is this and I'm I don't yeah, it 769 00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:51,000 just is That's Old Testament God playing up whatever it was that 770 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,400 kind of you kind of brush. Are we picking and choosing the 771 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,400 good bits of God, like the loving good bits? 772 00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,160 And I've got a friend who had a term, he'd call it Christianity 773 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,760 Light. So that stuck with me. 774 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,480 I'm like I'm I'm Christianity liar. 775 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,800 I wish your friend was here. He's evangelising around South 776 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,800 America, so I don't know. Yeah, but he's and I've got a 777 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,320 kind of where does, where does heaven and hell sit in the 778 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,040 Trinitarian? Yeah, OK, well, that's an easy 779 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,040 question. Heaven and hell both sit in God 780 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,880 because everything's in God and can't be anywhere else. 781 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:24,720 So that that's that's a nice easy one. 782 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,560 As for the the the first question, I mean I I. 783 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,800 It's hell. It's hell like the the burning 784 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,400 punishment. It's that kind of kind of sense 785 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,200 of are we, are we going through life with the goal of. 786 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,160 You've given me two, you've given me two, you've given me 787 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:41,880 two different directions questions there. 788 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,000 Let let me No, that's fine. No, it's absolutely fine. 789 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:49,960 I'm I'm playing just just on your on your first point are are 790 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,680 we picking and choosing? I mean, depends on the day, you 791 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,200 ask me. Sometimes I want to say, yeah, 792 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:56,800 just like everybody else's, right? 793 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:02,160 Everybody picks and chooses you. You go to any any church, we'll 794 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,560 pick and choose scriptures at the expense of others. 795 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,200 Everybody does. Because you you find me any 796 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:13,280 systematic construction and I will find you verses that blow 797 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,360 holes in it. And I know that because I 798 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,000 memorised large chunks of the scripture before I was 18. 799 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:21,920 I carried a Bible around with me wherever I went. 800 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,800 Any time I was walking, I was either witnessing to somebody 801 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,400 and giving the Bible away or I was reading it and memorising 802 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,960 it. And as far as picking the 803 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,160 avoiding the Old Testament because it's got the bad bits, 804 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,440 there's plenty of bad bits in the New Testament. 805 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,560 I didn't need don't need to go to like touch the Old Testament 806 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,600 before you find some of the worst bits. 807 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,720 You know that you might find you're going to find that. 808 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,680 So I think it's it's quite to me, it's quite a shallow 809 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,120 critique. And I'm not saying you, but that 810 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,760 they from your friend to say it's Christianity light. 811 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,080 I'm like, honestly, when, when people say that, I feel like, 812 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,320 you know, we're not, we're not all having the same conversation 813 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,760 here. Like honestly, because you, you 814 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:07,400 don't want me to turn that same methodology on your, on your, 815 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:12,120 you know, doctrines because they will not stand up. 816 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,880 And I know that because I used to be the one who preached those 817 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:19,160 harder than anybody else, right. I mean, I was, I have a book 818 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:24,960 coming out in a couple of weeks, which is my story and it, you 819 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,560 know, it kind of address. Why am I saying what I'm saying 820 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,000 now when I used to spend my Saturday afternoons with a 821 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,240 megaphone in the centre of Bath telling people to turn or burn, 822 00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:40,440 and I used to spend my Friday nights praying as hard as I 823 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,360 could for, you know, souls to get saved and all the way like, 824 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:45,640 why? Why am I here? 825 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,680 You know, So to me, it's not to me, nothing's off limits in 826 00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,520 terms of what, what we're reading and what we're engaging 827 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,560 with. But sometimes I do want to say, 828 00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,280 yeah, of course I'm going to pick and choose which bits do 829 00:48:58,280 --> 00:48:59,640 you want to pick and choose instead? 830 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,040 Because I could give you a whole. 831 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:05,080 But there's, there's as much, there's as much tyranny and 832 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,360 bondage in that book as there is freedom if you want to go 833 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,160 looking for it, you know, but that also brings me back to, but 834 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,160 what do you bring to the table when you read it? 835 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,080 Because you, you never read it by itself and because you always 836 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,560 read it with yourself. What's what's in your heart that 837 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,800 is coming out when you're engaging with the scripture? 838 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,640 What's what, what, what existential fear, what shame, 839 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,840 what dysfunction, what trauma is being brought to the surface 840 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,720 that is then overlaying and being projected onto the page 841 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,400 because you get 2 people read the same book and have very 842 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,000 different reactions to it. Right. 843 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:40,880 Well, that's not that complicated for us to 844 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:47,400 understand. But but again, even in the 845 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,720 phrasing of your question, and this isn't, this isn't to kind 846 00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:52,920 of put a gotcha moment on you because I know you didn't mean 847 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,920 it this way, but even even a question like, are we just 848 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,680 picking the good bits of God? God only has good bits, but God 849 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,880 is light in him, there is no darkness at all. 850 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,400 And sometimes when I'm in those kind of circles that are very 851 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,040 fundamentalist kind of circles, and if I get any pushback, I'm 852 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,480 just like, look, I'm just trying to take the Bible literally 853 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,800 everybody when he says I'm light and in me, there's no darkness 854 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:14,960 at all. I'm actually just trying to 855 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:20,920 believe that, you know, and I think that it exposes the fact 856 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,680 that people lean towards parts of the Scripture that makes 857 00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,400 sense to them and they lean away from those parts that don't. 858 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:29,200 And that's all. That's not really that 859 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,000 controversial. I think everybody does it. 860 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:36,440 So again, I want to say I want to lean towards the person of 861 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,760 Jesus Christ and the revelation of God in Christ. 862 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,640 So I'm going to take sides with him because there's all kinds of 863 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,240 other things you can take sides with when you engage with the 864 00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:47,960 Scripture. And no doubt you've seen it all. 865 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,080 And I mean, I've seen it all and people, what people can draw out 866 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,560 and what conclusions they can come to, you can dive into that 867 00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,840 and end up almost anywhere depending on how you assemble 868 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,080 the particular verses of Scripture. 869 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,440 So I'm, I'm a little suspicious of anyone who comes with that 870 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:09,000 methodology uncritically, like who hasn't actually recognised 871 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:13,440 that same methodology turns back on you if you, if you follow it 872 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,880 through. And that doesn't work for me. 873 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,440 Like I need a gospel that works in every situation, not one that 874 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,360 only works in very controlled kind of environments. 875 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,200 So for me, God is good and he is only good. 876 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,960 He, he's not evil and he's not the author of evil. 877 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,200 You get in some of the particularly some of the 878 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:37,280 reformed circles, you tend to have this, this thing of, well, 879 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,000 we worship God because he's so powerful and he's so awesome and 880 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,360 he's so incredible and he's just up there and wow, we're so 881 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:47,400 unworthy, but he's so glorious. And for them that that 882 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,240 gloriousness is it's about power. 883 00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:52,800 Like they like power. Oh God, and I even preach things 884 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,080 like this when I did a lot of evangelism, right, I would, I 885 00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,240 would say things like this is the God who could extinguish the 886 00:51:59,240 --> 00:52:02,000 universe in a moment and recreate it again in the in, in 887 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:03,680 the same moment, like he's got that power. 888 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,720 He could go that, that and that extinguish it and recreate it. 889 00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:08,240 That was the God that made sense to me. 890 00:52:08,240 --> 00:52:09,320 It was the God that I was preaching. 891 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:13,160 It was about power. Well, that's but Jesus goes to 892 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:14,480 the cross and says, Father, forgive them. 893 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,720 They don't know what they do. He's not there calling down 894 00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:19,000 legions of angels to annihilate the planet, right. 895 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,920 And so there is a mismatch here between the God at that point 896 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,120 that I'm preaching and that many are preaching in those kind of 897 00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,600 circles. What they are attracted to says 898 00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:34,600 more to me about them, which again, it's it's only a 899 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,520 criticism in as much as it's one that I have been fully guilty of 900 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,080 myself and of preaching and teaching for many years myself. 901 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,440 So I also, I understand it from the inside, you know, not from 902 00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,040 the outside. And then also, if anyone thinks 903 00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:51,840 what we're saying here is the easy version hasn't understood 904 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,000 it. I got up in Tennessee several 905 00:52:55,000 --> 00:53:01,000 years ago right after the major. There was a one of the one of 906 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,720 the big school shootings in Nashville happened on like the 907 00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:08,520 Friday and I was there on the the Monday. 908 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,040 So there's a within a couple of days. 909 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,560 So I, I thought I would use, and it was a men's conference, you 910 00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:19,360 know, 120 people or something. So I thought I would use my Part 911 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,680 1 of my sessions to address the issue of gun violence in the US. 912 00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:31,040 So I did. And you know, I said, look, the 913 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,480 the gospel does not allow you to have enemies. 914 00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:39,440 If you, if you, if you think that that is an easy version, if 915 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,240 that's Christianity light, the gospel does not permit you to 916 00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:45,120 have enemies. In fact, it says love your 917 00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:49,720 enemies because God does. And love does no harm to its 918 00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:51,920 neighbour, which means God does not harm his enemies. 919 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,560 I'm just being literal here, taking the book literally. 920 00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:59,640 So, so therefore, how do you feel about the shooter who just 921 00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,160 shut up the school? Because I know how I feel about 922 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:08,480 him and it's not very Christian. So that that's not light and 923 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,680 that's not the light and easy, not Lite, you know that kind of 924 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,480 light. But the other side of it is 925 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:16,800 Jesus says, take my yoke upon you because my yoke is easier 926 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,960 than my burden is light. So my other answer is, well, 927 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:21,720 what kind of Christianity do you prefer? 928 00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,240 Do you prefer heavy and difficult? 929 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,400 I mean, I have 90% of the church is preaching that honestly. 930 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,000 And I called someone out who is now a nationally known figure 931 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:34,840 for the wrong reason. I called him out, but he 932 00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,240 wouldn't respond to me because he posted something about being 933 00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:38,920 a prophet. Oh, I'm a people. 934 00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,040 Nobody knows what a burden it is to be a prophet. 935 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:43,360 You know, God shows you these things. 936 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,160 You have these terrible burdens you have to pray through. 937 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:50,360 And and this was on a in a group that I subsequently left and I 938 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:54,040 said, and everyone was posting, Oh yeah, that's right. 939 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,200 You know, right on brother and all that same man. 940 00:54:56,240 --> 00:54:58,440 And I just said, well, I said, whatever happened to my yoke is 941 00:54:58,440 --> 00:54:59,840 easy and my burden is light, right? 942 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,720 What happened to that? Because you've heard me say, if 943 00:55:03,720 --> 00:55:07,040 you've heard me long enough, Jesus yoke is easy and his 944 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,200 burden is light. If the yoke that you're carrying 945 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,720 is not easy and if the burden is not light, I don't know whose it 946 00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:15,200 is, but it's not Jesus. I'll leave you to fill in the 947 00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:20,200 blanks as to whose it might be. So if the if the message that 948 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,360 we're preaching, if the approach to Scripture that we're 949 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:27,720 preaching is actually weighing people down, then I can't see 950 00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:32,000 that in the person of Christ. And I haven't seen it in my own 951 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,800 experience of Christ because I've had the Holy Spirit speak 952 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,320 to me very directly and correct me on a couple of occasions over 953 00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,280 things. It's never felt heavy. 954 00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,040 It's only ever lifted me and elevated me. 955 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,920 So that's what God feels like. That's what he tastes like. 956 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,120 That's what he smells like. I think there's way too many 957 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:56,080 people out there who they have mistaken intellectual critique 958 00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,560 for the gift of discernment. They don't actually know what 959 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,520 discernment is. They have an intellectual 960 00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:03,680 exercise and they call it discernment, but that's not 961 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,160 discernment is a spiritual gift. It's not an intellectual 962 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,240 exercise in the New Testament. Doesn't mean that 963 00:56:08,240 --> 00:56:10,480 intellectualism has no place, right? 964 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:13,080 Of course it has a place. But discernment is a gift of 965 00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:14,440 being able to recognise somebody. 966 00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:16,800 You know, it's like, oh, yeah, I know, I know. 967 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,200 I know what that person's like. I, I know them. 968 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:21,840 I know them because I know how they've treated me. 969 00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,720 I know how they, what they sound like. 970 00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,040 I know what they feel like when they're close by. 971 00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:30,720 So therefore, when I'm engaging with the book, I'm looking for 972 00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:32,360 them. When I'm engaging with life, I'm 973 00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:34,560 looking for them. And that's what's helping me to 974 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,160 decide where they are in the midst of all of this stuff. 975 00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:44,320 So, but I often think that those kinds of questions are really 976 00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,800 arising from healing issues more than they are from intellectual 977 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,280 issues. I'm very convinced about that. 978 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,760 Where they're where we're kind of struggling to get around this 979 00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,280 stuff. It's more than anything else, it 980 00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:58,720 is our our own, our own pain, our own fear, shame. 981 00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:01,400 It's those things that are holding us captive from being 982 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,600 able to come to the light in those areas. 983 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:07,400 And so it's not it's something for spiritual growth and for, 984 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,760 you know, the one who fears is not yet made perfect in love. 985 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,120 We all have further to go in love. 986 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,720 But but to the idea that it's kind of easy in the sense that 987 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,880 your friend meant it. I mean, it's, it's just 988 00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:23,640 ridiculous. I think that, but, but again, I 989 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,440 would say look, look around if you care to at the state of 990 00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:32,360 churches that preach that way. And again, I say whether it's a 991 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,160 privilege or not, I've been in a lot of backroom conversations 992 00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:39,000 and I've also been involved in a lot of cleanups of Masses in the 993 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,760 church environment. And one of the things that's 994 00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,240 very striking is to see how stunted the spiritual growth is 995 00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,760 of congregations where people have been sitting there for 30 996 00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,560 years and they've made no progress and the message has not 997 00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,320 helped them make any progress yet it's been the message that, 998 00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:56,440 you know, so. And I think part of that is 999 00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,400 because at the very, the very point at which progress in the 1000 00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:04,360 things of the Spirit means the Holy Spirit is guiding us to be 1001 00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:06,800 able to recognise the Father, Son and Spirit and people who 1002 00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,440 are very different from us at that very moment. 1003 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,720 There's a certain kind of teaching which will close the 1004 00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,320 walls down and say, but God isn't there with those people. 1005 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:17,880 So you can't recognise him there. 1006 00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,280 They're the out crowd. This is one of the reasons I'm 1007 00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:25,360 so belligerent on the inclusion issue, because if you have 1008 00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,120 people who are excluded then that means, well, God isn't in 1009 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:29,960 them and isn't with them. Therefore I have nothing to 1010 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,520 recognise. I do not have the authentic 1011 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,160 presence of God to recognise in that person, only the potential 1012 00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,240 and that potential leaves room for me to close the door. 1013 00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,160 So OK, I've hung out, I've tried that, I've tried that one long 1014 00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:43,600 enough. OK, now I'll move over to here. 1015 00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,680 That one's, they're not, they're not coming with me. 1016 00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:47,640 Maybe they're not really elect, or maybe there's some other 1017 00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:51,920 problem, but to say I'm resolutely committed to the 1018 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,760 presence of the Father, Son, the Spirit in all people, is to say 1019 00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:56,840 I don't get to close the door on anybody. 1020 00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,720 I don't think that sounds like an easy Christianity light. 1021 00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,680 I do think it sounds like something that levels a very 1022 00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:10,320 strong prophetic bazooka at the broader consensus of the 1023 00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:14,680 Christian fascism that is brewing in the Western world 1024 00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,360 right now. I do think it hits that and I've 1025 00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,440 said that as well publicly and will continue to do so. 1026 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:25,040 So I, yeah, I don't, that's not to say people aren't being just 1027 00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:26,840 shallow. There's a lot of shallowness 1028 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:28,640 everywhere. I don't think we're talking 1029 00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:32,680 about shallowness here. So, and you asked about, you 1030 00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:35,680 asked about the specifically the heaven and health. 1031 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:37,360 And I mean, I just refer back to .1. 1032 00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:44,120 What is Jesus like? What when when Jesus acts in a 1033 00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:46,760 certain way towards somebody, what is his intention? 1034 00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:51,080 He, he's the one who loves his enemies. 1035 00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:52,560 Love does no harm to its neighbours. 1036 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,680 So whatever way Jesus is acting towards someone is not for the 1037 00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,720 harm of that person. It can only be for their good 1038 00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:00,400 because that's what he says love is. 1039 01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:03,600 So we have a lake of fire. Well, what does that? 1040 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,000 What, how does that function and what what's it for? 1041 01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,320 Lots of questions to unpack about that, but. 1042 01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,960 Again, I'm resolutely committed to God is love, and therefore 1043 01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,120 everything he does is an extension of his essential 1044 01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:18,960 nature. He is loved. 1045 01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:21,720 So yes, he's a judge, but what kind of judge is he? 1046 01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:23,840 Well, his judgement is an extension of his love. 1047 01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,120 It's not the antithesis to his love, which is often how it's 1048 01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:28,480 preached. And people will say things like, 1049 01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:30,800 well, yes, God is loving, but he's also holy. 1050 01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:32,880 It's like, well, then you haven't understood holiness. 1051 01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,000 Holiness is an extension of the love of God, not an opposing 1052 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:37,960 force. Justice is an extension of the 1053 01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:39,440 love of God, not an opposing force. 1054 01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,720 If our versions of justice and holiness do not look like the 1055 01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:44,720 love of God, it is us who need to repent. 1056 01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,800 Metanoia have a change and an upgrade in our thinking. 1057 01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:51,120 It's a carnal mind that can't accept that. 1058 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,440 Actually, again, all of this is the the book is testifying. 1059 01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:56,520 That's right. And the carnal mind could not 1060 01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,120 accept the things of the spirit. It's very, very rational and 1061 01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:04,600 reasonable to have an idea of a retributive, A retributive 1062 01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:08,640 punisher that makes sense to the natural mind. 1063 01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,800 The idea that, you know, you might have a school shooter and 1064 01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,680 Christ might actually still be in that person and still be 1065 01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:21,680 resolutely committed to their restoration with their free 1066 01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:24,520 participation, by the way, not not in a coercive manner. 1067 01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:28,040 We've had a few conversations about that, resolutely committed 1068 01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:31,040 them, and you think, well, how could you possibly spend time? 1069 01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:34,080 How could you possibly be anywhere near that devil? 1070 01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:35,680 How could you go anywhere near them? 1071 01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:37,400 They are. There's not a person on the 1072 01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,560 planet who loves that, that guy and would not, you know, send 1073 01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:42,000 him to the electric chair or whatever. 1074 01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,440 No one who's really connected to life will support that guy. 1075 01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:51,200 Yet here we see Jesus as not just the lamb, but the baby 1076 01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:54,120 lamb. That's a picture of holiness 1077 01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:58,800 that is desperately difficult for the, the natural mind to get 1078 01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:00,400 a hold of. And I think a lot of this stuff 1079 01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:06,280 is just natural mind rationality, not really seeing 1080 01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:08,400 the, the, the implications of the consequences of what, of 1081 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,480 what they're talking about. But for me, I mean, and to 1082 01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,120 summarise it, God is love. Everything he does is an 1083 01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:15,360 extension of his love because that's his essential nature. 1084 01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:19,120 So if that means we have to change our understanding of a 1085 01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:20,680 whole bunch of things, then yeah, that's called 1086 01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:22,240 Christianity. We change our understanding. 1087 01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:28,200 That's what church is for. I think it was Tim and then Pete 1088 01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:29,120 and Sarah. Thanks. 1089 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:33,280 And I don't know if it's a question so much as more just an 1090 01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:37,000 it might be an extension of where where you're going then, 1091 01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:41,360 but I wanted to talk a little bit about kind of universal 1092 01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,680 salvation. I'm kind of getting stuck on 1093 01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,080 that. Yeah, I know we've talked about 1094 01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,600 it about almost every week I come to you afterwards, 'cause 1095 01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:53,280 I'm getting stuck on it. And I guess I guess firstly, 1096 01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:56,120 just to say like, I've loved of this, that's what, four or five 1097 01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:57,960 weeks or four or five months it's been. 1098 01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,800 But the, the, the, the sessions, I, I do feel like my mind has 1099 01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:03,800 been blown. I'd say thank you for bringing 1100 01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:08,360 this to us. And it's it, it, it has brought 1101 01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:10,320 a new kind of beauty to the Trinity. 1102 01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:15,480 And it is a beautiful thing, this kind of sense of that, that 1103 01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,000 character of God being loved. And I think you've illustrated 1104 01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:19,600 that really well. And, and it's brought that to 1105 01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:23,800 life through this course in a new way for me in, in a new way 1106 01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:25,280 for me. So which is, which has been 1107 01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,360 fantastic. And it feels like the kind of 1108 01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,400 gospel you'd want to preach more than perhaps one that I've known 1109 01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,960 historically, but that doesn't make it kind of right. 1110 01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:38,480 And I guess I feel like there's some inconsistencies with some 1111 01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:41,160 stuff. It doesn't feel like this is 1112 01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:43,720 what the the gospel that maybe Jesus preached. 1113 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:47,680 And I've I've picked that a few, I've made note of a few things 1114 01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:49,200 and I don't know if I've got a question related to some 1115 01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,000 challenges to put to it to kind of explore it together. 1116 01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:59,000 Maybe if that's alright. It feels like Jesus kind of you 1117 01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:00,880 talked a bit about judgement then, but like judgement, 1118 01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,360 separation and accountability, which kind of feel inconsistent 1119 01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:10,240 with a universalist reading. And I kind of get that seeing it 1120 01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:11,760 through a different lens. I love that. 1121 01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:13,920 That was last week or last month, wasn't it, where we 1122 01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:15,480 talked about that like kind of the new lens? 1123 01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,600 And I've really found that as through my Bible reading since 1124 01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:21,280 that session And, and, and I'm now going to do that annoying 1125 01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:23,720 thing where I pick out a few verses to back up a particular 1126 01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,160 point, which, which, but still, I'm going to do it anyway. 1127 01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:30,360 In terms of like judgement. There's, there's, I mean, 1128 01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:35,560 there's lots I could, could, could pick on, but a few 1129 01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,880 specifics. When the Son of Man comes to his 1130 01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:41,360 glory, he'll separate people one from another. 1131 01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:46,880 In Matthew 25, the Father judges no one, but has given all 1132 01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,720 judgement to the Son. John 5 then goes on to say those 1133 01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:52,160 who do evil will rise to condemnation. 1134 01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:54,960 Again in John 5, the parallel of the net. 1135 01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:58,440 In Matthew 13, the wheat and the weeds. 1136 01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:02,720 In Matthew 13, the narrow versus the wide path in Matthew 7. 1137 01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:07,640 They're all about separation and then there's accountability. 1138 01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:10,560 Unless you repent, you will perish in Luke 13. 1139 01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:15,400 I just feel there's like it's inconsistently. 1140 01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:17,880 I'm still struggling. To yeah, OK, so I know I've just 1141 01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:22,320 picked out yeah, yeah. And and we, we could go through 1142 01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,400 each one. I don't want to do that, but I 1143 01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:25,960 don't actually think, I don't actually think it's the most. 1144 01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:28,120 I don't actually think it's the most helpful thing to do to go 1145 01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:34,800 through each one. I think that just a just a 1146 01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,120 couple of observations on those. I mean, I, I will pick on one, 1147 01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:41,880 which is, you know, Jesus saying you know, the one about can you 1148 01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,040 read the one again about the Father, the father in judgement. 1149 01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:45,160 Just let me get the wording right. 1150 01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:49,000 John 5 was it. The father judge is no one, but 1151 01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:50,720 has given all judgement to the son. 1152 01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:52,960 John Yeah, right. And this is the same Jesus who 1153 01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:59,960 says I judge no one, right. So you have the, you have the, 1154 01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:05,200 the judge is the one who hangs on the cross and from the cross 1155 01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:09,200 he delivers his judgement. Father, forgive them for they 1156 01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:12,800 don't know what they do, which is not a petition because Jesus 1157 01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:17,440 doesn't make petitions, right? He is of one mind with the 1158 01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:18,680 Father. When he says something, he's 1159 01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:20,360 expressing the mind of the Father. 1160 01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:22,720 So this is a declaration of absolution. 1161 01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:30,920 This is a high priestly prayer. Now that some of the nuances 1162 01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:33,400 here, we're used to thinking that salvation means your sins 1163 01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:38,720 are forgiven, but the word salvation means to be brought to 1164 01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:43,280 complete wholeness, right? In the Greek sozo, to be brought 1165 01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:47,000 to wholeness. Yeah. 1166 01:06:55,590 --> 01:06:57,750 Oh, yeah, exactly. No, he's judge, right? 1167 01:06:57,910 --> 01:07:00,670 But in what way does he judge? And what is the purpose of his 1168 01:07:00,670 --> 01:07:05,440 judgement? Yes, he's judge, absolutely so. 1169 01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:09,120 But but who does he judge? Well, in that verse in John, it 1170 01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:11,560 says those who those who do evil rise to a condemnation, right? 1171 01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,840 Well, Paul says everyone's work will be tested with fire. 1172 01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:18,640 I assume that means the fire of judgement, right? 1173 01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:20,600 I don't think anyone's going to probably contest that point. 1174 01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:25,240 He's talking to the Christians so and he's saying everyone's 1175 01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:32,520 going to the fire. So the he says for each one of 1176 01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:36,000 us must receive due recompense from God for the, the the deeds 1177 01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,240 done in the body, whether good or bad, doesn't exactly sound 1178 01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:40,800 like the evangelical message either. 1179 01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:42,720 Believe in Jesus and you got your ticket and you're all 1180 01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:46,120 right. OK, so, and this is kind of what 1181 01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:49,520 I mean, if you, if you, you can navigate your way through proof 1182 01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:52,240 text and can end up in almost any conclusion. 1183 01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:58,880 So hence for me, the emphasis is on all right, if God is love, 1184 01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:01,000 and I think that's a high watermark of Revelation in the 1185 01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,280 New Testament. In fact, when John says that, I 1186 01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:05,720 think that's a high watermark, he doesn't say God is loving. 1187 01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:07,960 He says God is love. That's very significant. 1188 01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:14,480 If love is the essential nature of God, we therefore then have 1189 01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,479 to ask questions. What does that mean about the 1190 01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:19,359 nature of God's judgement? Because we're not saying God's 1191 01:08:19,359 --> 01:08:22,800 not a judge, he's a judge, but what's the nature of that 1192 01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:24,640 judgement? What's the purpose of that 1193 01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:29,279 judgement? There are lots of rabbit trails 1194 01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:32,479 to go down if you want to begin to do things like start to 1195 01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:35,720 dissect language, words and all the rest. 1196 01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:37,520 There's and there's tonnes of resources and tonnes of 1197 01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:44,080 conversation to have about that. Too much, too much to even try 1198 01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:46,439 and dive into. But there's a, there's a lot, a 1199 01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:48,200 lot that's out there to get into. 1200 01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:51,920 I would say to try and summarise on it, I don't think any of 1201 01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:53,840 those things are about separation in the sense that 1202 01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,680 we've been using the word separation, separation meaning 1203 01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:59,399 to be absent from God. Even in the Book of Revelation, 1204 01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:02,520 it says the lake of fire is in the presence of the Lamb, not in 1205 01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:05,200 the absence of the Lamb. It's quite specific. 1206 01:09:05,399 --> 01:09:07,520 It says the beast and the false prophet are tormented day and 1207 01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:09,640 night in the lake of fire in the presence of the Lamb and his 1208 01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:14,760 holy angels, right? Not a nice bit, but it's very 1209 01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:16,960 emphatic that it's in the presence, not in the absence. 1210 01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:20,520 So what does, what's this concept of separation? 1211 01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:23,880 What is it even about? You know, what do we, what do we 1212 01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:27,240 mean? Is it an ontological separation 1213 01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:29,240 we're talking about here, meaning that the truth of their 1214 01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:33,200 being is that they're separated or is there something else going 1215 01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:38,520 on? I think that you you have and to 1216 01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:41,000 Chris to your point about kind of chronologies, I think this is 1217 01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:44,120 one of the one of the ways we can kind of get unstuck in the 1218 01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:46,160 New Testament because the New Testament doesn't have this 1219 01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:49,960 chronological idea in the way that we do in terms of the same 1220 01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:52,439 sequencing of things. You have John's gospel. 1221 01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:54,960 Now is the day of salvation. Now the Prince of this a world 1222 01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:57,640 stands condemned and I'm when I'm lifted up will draw all to 1223 01:09:57,640 --> 01:10:01,120 myself. End of the story and the the and 1224 01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:03,480 and then and then you won't look for it anymore because it's 1225 01:10:03,480 --> 01:10:04,760 better that the Holy Spirit comes. 1226 01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:09,480 So you have in John the moment of the judgement of the world is 1227 01:10:09,480 --> 01:10:12,160 the moment of the crucifixion when Christ is lifted up. 1228 01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:14,600 That's also the moment of his coronation. 1229 01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:20,920 So he's not thinking in this sort of temporal sequence. 1230 01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:22,640 We think very much in that sort of light. 1231 01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:24,840 OK, well, this follows this follows this like to that that 1232 01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:28,680 comment from from Bart, when did I get saved or born again or 1233 01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:32,040 wherever he was asked it. And he says, you know, 33 AD, 1234 01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:38,160 you know, and TF Torrance, who is the so Baxter Kruger, his PhD 1235 01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,000 was on the work of TF Torrance. He did it with JB Torrance, TF 1236 01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:43,760 Torrance's brother. Torrance is a Baathian scholar. 1237 01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:47,720 Torrance was asked the same question and he said, I'll give 1238 01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:49,920 you 3 answers. He says, I'll give you the date 1239 01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:52,800 and he gives the date. I consciously gave my life to 1240 01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:56,120 Jesus, you know, and altar call. And he said 2000 years ago on 1241 01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,560 the cross. And but yeah, even more than 1242 01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:00,200 that before the foundation of the world. 1243 01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:04,400 These are, these are working. These are all working in concert 1244 01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:07,760 with one another. But it's not really the kind of 1245 01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:12,600 the, the sequencing of it is not really the, the, the issue here. 1246 01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:16,080 And I have a problem with, say, a reading of Revelation that has 1247 01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:18,280 a different Jesus than the Jesus who came the first time. 1248 01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:21,640 I have a problem with that. If Jesus Christ is the same 1249 01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:25,080 yesterday, today, and forever, then how can you tell me that 1250 01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:27,840 the Jesus who's coming back is materially going to be different 1251 01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:29,560 than the Jesus who came the first time? 1252 01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:34,960 That strikes me as being a real major theological flaw, not a 1253 01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:37,240 minor point for debate. If he's the same yesterday, 1254 01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:40,040 today and forever, when we see him in the Gospels, we are 1255 01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:43,760 seeing him as he is. So you know, people have this 1256 01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:45,320 well, when he comes back, he's going to come back to judge 1257 01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:46,520 world. No, he's judging the world right 1258 01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:48,440 now. His very life was an act of 1259 01:11:48,440 --> 01:11:51,040 judgement. He's very his incarnation was an 1260 01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:53,120 act of judgement. It was a judgement against all 1261 01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:56,400 the darkness, all of the sin, all of the evil, all of the 1262 01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:58,800 destruction is judged in the incarnation. 1263 01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:04,120 It's judged by God saying I see all of this and I refuse to 1264 01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:06,400 depart. You cannot make me leave. 1265 01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:10,160 You cannot push me so far that my love is separated from you. 1266 01:12:10,440 --> 01:12:13,560 I am here present within you irreversibly. 1267 01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:16,600 And because I'm present here with you and in you 1268 01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:20,320 irreversibly, that is the judgement that that lays the 1269 01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:23,040 crisis, the word judgement in New Testament, etymologically, 1270 01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:25,600 it's the word crisis. That's the crisis point that 1271 01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:29,360 lands at the door saying, well, if, if that's the truth of who I 1272 01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:32,800 am and the truth of everything else, something's got to change. 1273 01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:34,200 It can't. Things can't stay the way that 1274 01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:35,800 they are. It's impossible for them to stay 1275 01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:37,920 the way that they are. Now that we've seen that we 1276 01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:39,560 can't put that cap back in the bag. 1277 01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:44,480 And that is very, in very real terms, the judgement that is in 1278 01:12:44,480 --> 01:12:46,520 very real terms, like, Oh my God, what have I done? 1279 01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:48,920 I have to put this right. This is the key of saying I need 1280 01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:52,240 to pay back, you know, fourfold anyone who I've defrauded. 1281 01:12:52,440 --> 01:12:54,720 And Jesus says, well, now salvation has truly come to this 1282 01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:56,520 house. It's at that point when he makes 1283 01:12:56,520 --> 01:13:00,000 restitution that Jesus says, OK, we see something completed here 1284 01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:02,520 because it's actually worked its way through in his in his 1285 01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:08,680 actions. So I think that it's possible to 1286 01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:11,880 dive into the New Testament, assemble a list of verses, and 1287 01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:15,640 end up with eternal conscious torment in literal fire for, for 1288 01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:18,200 for eternity, right? It's possible to do that. 1289 01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:22,680 It's possible to parachute in, work your way through a 1290 01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:25,280 different set of scriptures and come out with will everybody 1291 01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:28,440 saved. So you can you can do that. 1292 01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:33,000 We're using the same Bible. It wasn't my intention to kind 1293 01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:34,920 of I know it's not no, I'm not I understand. 1294 01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:36,920 I don't know. I'm just trying to I'm trying to 1295 01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:39,480 say from a challenge out with this. 1296 01:13:39,480 --> 01:13:41,640 So I think what, what I'm, what I'm trying to emphasise here is 1297 01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:43,640 like, do like do the journey with Jesus on this. 1298 01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:46,600 Like there's, there's questions you've got to ask him on it and 1299 01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:49,320 maybe questions you might not have dared to ask him before. 1300 01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:52,320 OK, Jesus, Well, what do you think about XYZ? 1301 01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:55,760 I mean, it's so simple. How, how often do actually, or 1302 01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:57,280 what do you actually think about that? 1303 01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:01,040 The other thing I'll do is, and I'll say, well, Tim, what do you 1304 01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:02,880 think about that? The New Testament says you're 1305 01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:06,520 going to judge angels. You'll be responsible for 1306 01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:07,960 judging angels. Says that right. 1307 01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:10,840 So, OK, you've been a Christian a while. 1308 01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:14,200 How do you judge you? You've got to know Jesus. 1309 01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:15,920 You've got what, how, how would you call it? 1310 01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:19,000 What would you consider to be an appropriate standard? 1311 01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:21,440 What would you consider to be an appropriate way of dealing with 1312 01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:25,360 XYZ person? What, what would you do? 1313 01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:28,240 Because you are actually called to do it since that's your 1314 01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:30,600 destiny in the future is that you're going to be there talking 1315 01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:33,120 about the, you know, the, the completion of the church, 24 1316 01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:38,080 elders on the throne like issue sound judgement. 1317 01:14:38,440 --> 01:14:41,080 What's your verdict? There's an there's an 1318 01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:41,960 invitation. Sorry. 1319 01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:43,520 That's going to be tough. Tough, right, Tough. 1320 01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:45,520 OK, I think we're all. But why is it going to be tough? 1321 01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:47,960 We all had a tough judgement to make today, wouldn't it? 1322 01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:51,480 Was pool golf Claudia? It was a close call, wasn't it 1323 01:14:51,480 --> 01:14:53,160 earlier, but we made the right judgement. 1324 01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:55,680 I don't know. Not just me, was it, I assume 1325 01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,440 it's a sport reference. Oh, traitors. 1326 01:14:58,440 --> 01:15:04,840 OK, so anyway, so, so my, my point is though, like go there 1327 01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:09,680 with that conversation because I mean, I, I this this stuff I've 1328 01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:14,320 got a problem with right, but it but it can't I mean, I mean, 1329 01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:17,400 I've shared it, I have shared it here and I don't want to again 1330 01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:18,800 go down. It's a couple more questions as 1331 01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:20,640 well. But on the on the school 1332 01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:22,480 shooting thing, I mean, I preach this in Tennessee. 1333 01:15:22,480 --> 01:15:25,400 I have shared it here, this video of the, of the, of the kid 1334 01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:28,640 who was arrested and they leaked the, the, the police 1335 01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,080 interrogation room and his brother goes in to see him 1336 01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:34,840 right. And it's just a very, very, I 1337 01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:37,760 have a problem with this video. I have a problem with it because 1338 01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:40,320 it, it offends and challenges basically everything about the 1339 01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:44,200 way I see the world. And it, it, it creates an 1340 01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:46,240 extraordinary amount of dissonance, sets me against 1341 01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:50,520 myself because I can look at this and say I hate this kid. 1342 01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:52,600 Well, his brother doesn't hate him. 1343 01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:56,360 His brother is apparently loving him unconditionally, even in the 1344 01:15:56,360 --> 01:15:58,920 midst of him having done extraordinarily evil things. 1345 01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,520 Now I have a problem. Now I have a judgement on me. 1346 01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:03,560 That judgement has come right back onto me. 1347 01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:07,800 What do you say about this? I'm like, all right, Jesus, OK, 1348 01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:10,200 we have to have a conversation. Well, I know what to do with 1349 01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:12,160 that, though. What to do with that is I need 1350 01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:14,080 to pray, right? I've got to pray, All right, 1351 01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:17,240 Jesus, I need you to enable me to see because I clearly don't 1352 01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:20,720 see like you do yet. And that is stirring up within 1353 01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:25,880 me a challenge to my own saintliness, right? 1354 01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:28,160 Am I what? And then there's a, there's a, 1355 01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:29,200 there's a decision should be made. 1356 01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:31,440 Will I turn away from that and harden my heart and say, now I'm 1357 01:16:31,440 --> 01:16:33,760 not going down there? Or will I say, actually, I, I 1358 01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:37,360 need to, I need to sit with that and accept the exposure of the 1359 01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:39,760 fire of God's judgement, which is the fire of his love, by the 1360 01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:41,840 way, because it can't be any other fire, right? 1361 01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:44,120 He only has one fire. He doesn't have multiple 1362 01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:45,840 different fires for different days. 1363 01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:48,520 That's mad, right? He has one fire and he is fire. 1364 01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:50,520 In fact, says he's a consuming fire. 1365 01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:53,480 So, and if he is love and he is fire, then that fire must be 1366 01:16:53,480 --> 01:16:56,680 loved, loving fire. OK, so that's judgement, right? 1367 01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:01,400 So I think that to to actually sit with that and allow that 1368 01:17:01,400 --> 01:17:06,680 fire to land on you and to really work with it is it's not, 1369 01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:10,080 it's not easy in that sense, you know, from, from, you know, 1370 01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:12,480 Nicholas, previous question. It's not easy. 1371 01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:15,560 Like you, you get, you get out, you kind of slip through. 1372 01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:16,320 Oh, that's good. Yeah. 1373 01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:18,600 I dodged a bullet there, guys. So you don't get to dodge the 1374 01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:20,720 bullet, but that bullet's coming for you. 1375 01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:26,400 And so how, how much better to say, well, we, let's embrace it 1376 01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:27,960 now. There's the, there's the 1377 01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:30,560 imperative to evangelism. We're saying, look, the fire is 1378 01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:32,000 coming. In fact, it's already here. 1379 01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:35,080 Embrace it. Now there's No Fear in love. 1380 01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:37,520 You're, you're only afraid because you don't know who the, 1381 01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:40,480 who it is that you're afraid of. You're afraid of Jesus because 1382 01:17:40,480 --> 01:17:42,000 you don't know who he is. It's just like Adam in the 1383 01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:43,880 garden. He's afraid of God because he no 1384 01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:46,320 longer knows who God is. That's the same problem we all 1385 01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:47,800 have. And it's a problem that Jesus 1386 01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:49,800 has come to solve us. Forgiveness is not our 1387 01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,560 fundamental requirement. We do need forgiveness, but we 1388 01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:56,360 need forgiveness in that our souls require absolution and the 1389 01:17:56,360 --> 01:17:57,880 alleviation of the burden of guilt. 1390 01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:01,600 And then we need the freedom to be able to act, to put things 1391 01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:04,080 right like we require that we don't need, we don't need 1392 01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:06,880 forgiveness in the sense of, well, the books have got to be 1393 01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:08,320 balanced. You know, we need the Ledger 1394 01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:10,440 straightened out. It's not, it's not a legal 1395 01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:11,360 thing. It's relational. 1396 01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:15,760 It's about restoring us to the, the mode of being that we were 1397 01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:21,880 created to be in and the I think that like camp out with those 1398 01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:24,560 thoughts, right? Meditate on those, pray into 1399 01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:26,200 those. I mean, this again, we've, we've 1400 01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:28,240 been talking about tonnes of books and resources and things 1401 01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:33,360 that I can point you to explore the sort of the conceptual side 1402 01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:36,160 more. And I'm telling you, I still 1403 01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:37,920 have problems, right? I've got problems with this 1404 01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:44,080 stuff because but I've come to recognise my problems correspond 1405 01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:47,800 to faith problems, not anything else. 1406 01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:51,200 Like I'm actually, do I really believe in Jesus here or do I 1407 01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:55,800 not? What do I imagine Jesus would do 1408 01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:57,880 where he's standing here right now in such and such a 1409 01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:00,400 situation? And the Holy Spirit is 1410 01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:03,600 continually breaking through to me as the Holy Spirit is for you 1411 01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:07,640 and all of us to bear witness to Christ because we're all we're 1412 01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:11,960 all making kind of incremental growth, experiencing incremental 1413 01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:15,480 growth in all different ways is kind of unique to us. 1414 01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:20,760 But but again, that's why the the the, the in many ways, 1415 01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:23,320 universalism is a problematic word because as soon as that's 1416 01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:26,480 thrown in there immediately it's like the conversations about 1417 01:19:26,480 --> 01:19:29,280 this thing over here. Like Bart, he does. 1418 01:19:29,320 --> 01:19:30,760 He said, I don't believe in universalism. 1419 01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:34,000 I believe in Christ. We don't we're not talking about 1420 01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:39,480 an isn't exactly so how how do we pass that out and work it 1421 01:19:39,480 --> 01:19:42,840 through. I think personally that at the 1422 01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:46,280 very least our vision of Christ should be able to should be able 1423 01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:49,400 to give us hope for everybody. At the very least that should be 1424 01:19:49,400 --> 01:19:51,840 the case. We should be able to see that 1425 01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:55,880 the revelation of God in Christ as we can have we have we have a 1426 01:19:55,880 --> 01:19:59,280 a confident and joyful hope for anyone and if there are people 1427 01:19:59,280 --> 01:20:01,520 that we don't have that hope for, that's our problem. 1428 01:20:01,640 --> 01:20:03,640 We need to pray. OK God, you need to help me see 1429 01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:05,800 what I don't see yet. You need to grow me up. 1430 01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:08,840 So I'm more like you because you have hope for everyone at the 1431 01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:12,240 very least without jumping ahead to make any deterministic 1432 01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:14,680 statements about where where things have to lead. 1433 01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:18,480 Although again, as I say, if you want to get really head fit over 1434 01:20:18,480 --> 01:20:19,880 it. What do you do with then every 1435 01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:22,960 initial bow in heaven and earth and under the earth and confess 1436 01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:24,680 that Jesus Christ is the Lord of the glory of God the Father. 1437 01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:29,040 What do you do with that so. I mean, play with it, right? 1438 01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:32,560 Process it and talk to Jesus about it. 1439 01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:34,720 But. But these are the right kind of, 1440 01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:36,720 these are the right kind of things that it should lead us to 1441 01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:39,280 wrestle with. And it should also lead us to 1442 01:20:39,280 --> 01:20:44,080 look back on, well, if what, when we've had these kind of 1443 01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:47,360 infernalistic tendencies before, What's that been about? 1444 01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:53,120 You know, So. Yeah, huge topic. 1445 01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:56,800 And I and again, I I'm not dodging any Bible verses, right. 1446 01:20:56,800 --> 01:21:03,720 But Pete, I think is next and then Sarah and then there's any. 1447 01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:04,440 Yeah. Cheers. 1448 01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:17,680 Yeah, that's fine. There we go. 1449 01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:21,160 I can do what I want in these shiny shoes. 1450 01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:25,520 Hey, OK, I'm going to get there. I realise we haven't got much 1451 01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:27,360 time. My question is actually quite 1452 01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:30,560 quantum, quite Mystics. You went there. 1453 01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:35,000 I went there. Yeah, I let's accept I'm. 1454 01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:38,360 I'm more than happy and fully endorsed with the idea that 1455 01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:40,880 we're fully in relationship. It's all about relationship. 1456 01:21:41,040 --> 01:21:43,600 And I don't care what really what's right or wrong, whatever 1457 01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:47,760 Jesus says, that's what's that Bible. 1458 01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:51,520 Fine, cool. You know, put me in that camp. 1459 01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:56,040 My question kind of I'm a little preamble and then I'll get to a 1460 01:21:56,040 --> 01:22:01,440 question is I think we're all in pursuit of life in all its 1461 01:22:01,440 --> 01:22:03,560 fullness. Jesus said I come that for life 1462 01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:04,760 to give you life in those for us. 1463 01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:08,400 We're all trying to hunt for that and we do that through 1464 01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:11,240 hunting theology that can help bring about the fruit that 1465 01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:14,400 brings us that right in some capacity, right. 1466 01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:18,840 I, I think we'd probably all maybe in some way say that and I 1467 01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:21,280 think there's that hung which raw into the hunger of the thing 1468 01:22:21,280 --> 01:22:24,840 and for me, and I'll speak for you, maybe here you can shut me 1469 01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:27,400 down if I'm wrong. We're really magnetised to this 1470 01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:30,600 because it feels like there's so much life and freedom and 1471 01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:34,360 fullness in this, unlike anything I've heard or felt 1472 01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:36,480 before. Really drawn to it, even though 1473 01:22:36,480 --> 01:22:40,160 I'm now like the village idiot compared to maybe something I 1474 01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:43,560 had a bit more confidence in only before now. 1475 01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:47,640 Quantum mysticism. Let's accept we've got we've 1476 01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:50,240 rationalised it all. Jesus said great things. 1477 01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:52,720 Will you do? He did some pretty amazing stuff 1478 01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:55,760 with his life and the people around him did some pretty 1479 01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:59,760 amazing stuff. Dave Vaughn, he was a drunk 1480 01:22:59,760 --> 01:23:01,760 monk, wasn't he? He came second place in Big 1481 01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:04,680 Brother 1 year. But he's, he's a proper Mystic, 1482 01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:08,680 or he was at the time. He said, I remember going to a 1483 01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:11,680 conference and he said something that blew my mind and he still 1484 01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:14,640 does. He goes, if I am, I am in God 1485 01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:17,720 and God is in me and God is everywhere, where am I? 1486 01:23:18,480 --> 01:23:21,200 So my question goes translocation. 1487 01:23:23,240 --> 01:23:26,040 OK, so here I here's my thinking. 1488 01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:29,960 Like there are areas of life that we're still, we're 1489 01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:32,760 scrapping around the kind of like what's right, what's wrong, 1490 01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:36,680 what's in cool, important conversations, But life in all 1491 01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:42,000 its fullness, we're missing this spectrum of like what could be 1492 01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:46,680 in life if there are things like miracles, diamonds appearing. 1493 01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:49,480 And I'm not saying chase the miracle, don't chase the signs, 1494 01:23:49,480 --> 01:23:53,440 don't chase the wonders, chase the Jesus, right? 1495 01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:58,720 But translocation, you hear Mystics and talk about all this 1496 01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:01,520 kind of stuff. Like I haven't quite formulated 1497 01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:04,320 a question really. I'm like, can we have more of 1498 01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:07,480 those conversations? Because I'm like, we're missing 1499 01:24:07,480 --> 01:24:10,760 something. If we're just mulling around, am 1500 01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:11,800 I in? Am I out? 1501 01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:16,360 I'm I'm bored by it. Like let's do something cool 1502 01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:18,680 with this. Like, like how do we have those 1503 01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:21,040 conversations where it's just like, and I'm not looking for 1504 01:24:21,040 --> 01:24:23,480 the treat code to be like, right, I'm in China, boom, let's 1505 01:24:23,480 --> 01:24:26,640 go. I just like if that's part of 1506 01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:30,520 what life can be, where's that conversation happening? 1507 01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:33,760 And I think this Trinitarian world seems to have these 1508 01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:36,640 conversations more than other streams I've heard. 1509 01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:40,160 And I, I know that that's probably opening up a much 1510 01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:44,920 bigger conversation for another time, but if that's the kind of 1511 01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:50,400 the fruit of life in its soul, its fullness, like, you know, 1512 01:24:50,400 --> 01:24:53,640 maybe I'm just being a bit weird and like, I'm a bit bored with 1513 01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:54,640 my middle class life. I'm. 1514 01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:58,720 All for it. Like, yes, you know, I'm all, 1515 01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:00,640 I'm all for it, you know Me. Yeah. 1516 01:25:00,640 --> 01:25:06,320 You know, I'm from a you know, I was said for years, Grace and I 1517 01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:08,720 were the last stop before you really drop off the deep end 1518 01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:14,440 with the other other friends in in the kind of mystical 1519 01:25:14,440 --> 01:25:16,440 conversations. But I mean, to quote Carl Rana, 1520 01:25:16,440 --> 01:25:19,400 he said if you know, if I mentioned him earlier, famous 1521 01:25:19,400 --> 01:25:25,160 quote in the 21st century, a devout Christian will either be 1522 01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:31,120 a Mystic or nothing at all. So, yeah, this is, this is I'm, 1523 01:25:31,480 --> 01:25:34,680 I'm of the belief, the firm, committed belief that there is 1524 01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:36,840 no such Christianity other than mystical Christianity. 1525 01:25:37,440 --> 01:25:43,880 How that works out, I, I prefer, I prefer a kind of simplicity to 1526 01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:45,960 it. You know, for me, the mythism 1527 01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:50,760 starts and ends is the image of Mary at the feet of Jesus, Mary 1528 01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:53,120 and Martha, you know, so that, that's a really key text for me. 1529 01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:55,600 She's found the face of Christ. She's not going anywhere else. 1530 01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:56,920 And the face of Christ is everything. 1531 01:25:57,080 --> 01:25:58,120 Yeah. You can make contact with 1532 01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:01,680 anywhere from there, and we do. Isn't that what prayer is? 1533 01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:04,160 I mean, sometimes if I'm praying for somebody, I might be like, 1534 01:26:04,160 --> 01:26:07,320 OK, Holy Spirit, I'm making contact with you consciously. 1535 01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:10,160 You're always in contact with me, but I'm reciprocating making 1536 01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:11,280 contact with you. OK. 1537 01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:14,800 How do we make contact with that person and that situation? 1538 01:26:15,560 --> 01:26:17,280 Let's hold them. And it does. 1539 01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:21,360 Does that mean there's some trans dimensional contact? 1540 01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:22,960 Well, I guess, yeah. I mean, you could call it that. 1541 01:26:23,280 --> 01:26:28,440 Isn't that what prayer is? So yeah, if I think if it, if it 1542 01:26:28,440 --> 01:26:32,840 helps to, if it helps to connect us with faith in the reality of 1543 01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:36,200 what we're engaging with, then I'm then I'm totally game. 1544 01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:42,120 And I think that my one caveat around having also been around a 1545 01:26:42,120 --> 01:26:45,160 lot of those Mystic circles is sometimes there are people who 1546 01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:48,760 are, there's a term called spiritual bypassing in 1547 01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:52,720 psychology, which is people who've got unresolved trauma or 1548 01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:56,880 issues and they can latch onto a spiritual practise as a way to, 1549 01:26:56,880 --> 01:27:00,240 rather than address the problem is to, is to bypass the problem. 1550 01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:03,040 And this is again, is quite well described. 1551 01:27:03,280 --> 01:27:06,920 And I, I've spent a long time in the inner healing space and I've 1552 01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:09,720 quite, I've got quite a good sniffer, if you know what I 1553 01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:14,640 mean, when I'm around that. So, you know, you just, it's 1554 01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:16,720 fine, like people, people where they're at, there's no need for 1555 01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:19,120 them. You know, it's not not a just an 1556 01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:22,120 observation, right, That sometimes people can gravitate 1557 01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:26,680 into those places that are quite phenomenal because that's a kind 1558 01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:31,040 of safe refuge for them. But whether that's always the 1559 01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:34,120 thing that they need. Sometimes I think I would say I 1560 01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:37,120 like mysticism where get your head as far in the clouds as you 1561 01:27:37,120 --> 01:27:39,840 want to go, but keep your feet on the ground because there's a 1562 01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:42,840 reality here as well. So so that's just my only 1563 01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:44,920 caveat. But otherwise, I'm, I'm, I'm 1564 01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:47,400 good with it. You know, I mean, Justin 1565 01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:50,040 Abrahams and I are friends. You know, obviously Brian 1566 01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:52,880 Simmons wrote the one of the forwards for my coming upcoming 1567 01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:55,760 book and we've done conferences and things together. 1568 01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:58,120 So I mean, I'm, we're, we, we love that. 1569 01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:01,160 And I mean, in times past I've majored a lot on it. 1570 01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:07,440 I think that why why this? I think because I've found it's 1571 01:28:07,440 --> 01:28:11,720 the, the, this is the North Star, right? 1572 01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:14,080 You know, my analogy of crossing the, the, the Atlantic, this is 1573 01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:16,240 the North Star. You get the revelation of God in 1574 01:28:16,240 --> 01:28:18,760 Christ. OK, That stuff will fit in, fit 1575 01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:20,960 in around that. And yeah, it's like, like, go 1576 01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:22,320 for it. What's in your heart? 1577 01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:25,080 If it's healing, if it's miracles, whatever it is like, 1578 01:28:25,080 --> 01:28:28,360 let's, let's do it. You know, I'm, I'm there. 1579 01:28:28,360 --> 01:28:31,000 And we should, we should be expansive and joyful and open 1580 01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:34,440 and, and our theology should help us go there, not hinder us. 1581 01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:37,080 Yeah. Good one, Sarah. 1582 01:28:37,080 --> 01:28:39,480 I think it's the last, last question to you. 1583 01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:45,840 OK, so I wanted to ask a question about spiritual like 1584 01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:48,880 protection because I kind of feel like a little while ago 1585 01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:53,400 when I was thinking about this, I kind of thought to me, prayer 1586 01:28:53,400 --> 01:28:56,880 sort of feels a bit like a protection racket of sort of 1587 01:28:56,880 --> 01:29:00,120 like it kind of I was just thinking about prayer and I was 1588 01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:03,200 like, I kind of feel like if something goes wrong, when 1589 01:29:03,200 --> 01:29:08,160 something goes wrong, I guess my like instinctive response can be 1590 01:29:08,160 --> 01:29:09,800 like, oh, I didn't pray hard enough. 1591 01:29:10,240 --> 01:29:13,240 I didn't pray enough. I know there's like, I think it 1592 01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:15,680 was, was it Seth Wigglesworth who had the kind of more like 1593 01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:17,840 the theology where it's like, oh, I've prayed for it once. 1594 01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:21,880 OK, now it's prayed for. But also even like sin as well. 1595 01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:27,240 Like, you know, kind of if you know, it almost feels like, I 1596 01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:29,440 know it's a funny way of looking at it, but it almost feels like 1597 01:29:29,440 --> 01:29:31,840 there's some kind of like strings attached with prayer. 1598 01:29:32,200 --> 01:29:34,360 And I was like, what is the actual purpose of prayer? 1599 01:29:34,360 --> 01:29:38,280 Because it feels, you know, I've definitely felt the impact and 1600 01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:40,280 the benefit of prayer. There's no doubting that. 1601 01:29:40,280 --> 01:29:43,920 But I, I'm struggling to understand now what, what the 1602 01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:47,400 purpose of prayer is. And like, it kind of feels like 1603 01:29:47,400 --> 01:29:49,760 some of the prayer that I've experienced has felt very like 1604 01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:55,920 forced and very like petitioning and a kind of like AI need to 1605 01:29:55,920 --> 01:29:58,880 make sure I pray enough. I need to make sure that I'm 1606 01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:01,360 thoroughly covered and I'm absolutely thoroughly covered. 1607 01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:04,360 And oops, maybe we weren't thoroughly covered and kind of 1608 01:30:04,360 --> 01:30:07,360 almost like it. It doesn't feel very relational 1609 01:30:07,360 --> 01:30:09,680 and very sort of Trinitarian, of course. 1610 01:30:09,680 --> 01:30:13,640 I just wanted your take on that. Yeah, Well, I mean, again, huge, 1611 01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:15,720 but really very, very good question. 1612 01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:19,560 I mean, I, I've wrestled, I've wrestled with that sort of thing 1613 01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:21,920 for years. I mean, I, I would say I started 1614 01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:24,600 in evangelism and intercession. That was, that was my ministry 1615 01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:26,680 and intercession for me was the Charles Finney Smith 1616 01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:28,640 Wigglesworth style where you pray till you get the 1617 01:30:28,640 --> 01:30:30,080 breakthrough. And once you got the 1618 01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:31,120 breakthrough, that's the breakthrough. 1619 01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:33,440 You know, the breakthrough is that depends on you getting that 1620 01:30:33,440 --> 01:30:36,720 bit right. And if you sin on the way, you 1621 01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:41,280 might lose the breakthrough or if you confess the wrong thing 1622 01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:43,840 or something like that. I mean, I, I'm kind of dead to 1623 01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:46,040 all of that because I just can't do it. 1624 01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:48,520 I did it for a long time. I just can't do it anymore, 1625 01:30:48,760 --> 01:30:51,720 honestly. It's like that, that thing well 1626 01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:54,200 and truly burnt out. But I really believe in prayer. 1627 01:30:54,440 --> 01:30:59,440 And for me, I think, and I've had lots, I still maintain and 1628 01:30:59,440 --> 01:31:06,320 continue to have experiences on in terms of prayer, even with 1629 01:31:06,320 --> 01:31:09,560 things like, you know, I was joking with somebody about 1630 01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:11,920 spiritual mapping, you know, what's the demonic power of it? 1631 01:31:12,440 --> 01:31:14,560 I mean, sometimes I still even bump into it. 1632 01:31:14,560 --> 01:31:16,360 I just don't look for any of that stuff. 1633 01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:20,440 But but it's not that there isn't some reality there to 1634 01:31:20,440 --> 01:31:25,280 engage with and address, but I think in the past we would go 1635 01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:29,360 hunting for it. Jesus said, look in this world, 1636 01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:30,600 you'll have trouble. Take heart. 1637 01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:33,800 I've overcome the world so you can do everything right and 1638 01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:36,960 stuff can go wrong. That's one of the hard realities 1639 01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:39,880 of this planet, right? And this, this paradigm, this 1640 01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:43,160 age, it's part of what we need to be saved from. 1641 01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:46,160 Is that that fact? But we have been because in the 1642 01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:48,120 cross we see he's already overcome the world. 1643 01:31:48,120 --> 01:31:51,360 Take heart, I have overcome. It's like back to Hebrews one. 1644 01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:53,680 Ah, we see him. He's already gone there. 1645 01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:57,160 And if we can recognise he's gone there, and therefore that's 1646 01:31:57,160 --> 01:32:00,320 where we are too, then we realise all spiritual that then 1647 01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:02,000 there's the power that's overcome everything. 1648 01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:04,880 And when you read Athanasius, you see this is Athanasius 1649 01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:07,480 ultimate argument for why the gospel must be true. 1650 01:32:07,840 --> 01:32:10,680 His argument is if you, he basically says words to the 1651 01:32:10,680 --> 01:32:14,120 effect of if nothing else I've said has persuaded you, if none 1652 01:32:14,120 --> 01:32:16,320 of the miracles have persuaded you, if none of this stuff has 1653 01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:19,680 done, then my, my, my final answer on the matter is why are 1654 01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:21,120 none of our people afraid of death? 1655 01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:24,960 And that that is his final argument if the why the gospel 1656 01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:27,680 must be true, because he says everybody's afraid of death 1657 01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:30,040 except our people. It's like even our kids are not 1658 01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:32,240 afraid of death. They go to the lions, you know, 1659 01:32:32,240 --> 01:32:35,480 and they they're like singing along the way, filled with with 1660 01:32:35,480 --> 01:32:40,200 invincible life. And so, you know, they had a 1661 01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:42,520 different attitude. They were tapped into something. 1662 01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:44,920 I want to tap into that, right, Or I wanted to tap into me. 1663 01:32:44,920 --> 01:32:51,080 I want to engage with that. So I think we, you know, we like 1664 01:32:51,960 --> 01:32:57,080 we can come. I'll leave you with a testimony 1665 01:32:57,240 --> 01:32:59,240 because I think it's the best thing I can give you to kind of 1666 01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:01,920 illustrate it without doing huge thing on prayer and all the 1667 01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:03,520 rest. And apart from saying, you know, 1668 01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:05,720 I think prayer should be relational and it should be 1669 01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:09,120 about we, we need to pray that, that we can see better because 1670 01:33:09,120 --> 01:33:11,000 that's what the Apostle Paul always prays for. 1671 01:33:11,280 --> 01:33:12,520 I pray that you would have a good revelation. 1672 01:33:12,520 --> 01:33:14,080 I pray that the eyes of your heart would be enlightened, 1673 01:33:14,080 --> 01:33:15,280 right? That's what he always prays for 1674 01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:18,400 them for, not anything else. Pray that you can see the way 1675 01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:20,000 things really are. Because if you get that, 1676 01:33:20,000 --> 01:33:21,120 everything else falls into place. 1677 01:33:22,120 --> 01:33:26,960 But when I was at when I was still at E5, there was a family 1678 01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:28,680 there. In fact, he, I think he was 1679 01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:31,040 Russian, she was Ukrainian. Obviously, this is years ago 1680 01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:36,160 before the war. And they came up to me one day 1681 01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:39,840 and their oldest daughter was interpreting because they didn't 1682 01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:41,560 speak good English and a little bit of English. 1683 01:33:41,560 --> 01:33:43,960 And they're basically saying, look, we need you to cast a 1684 01:33:43,960 --> 01:33:45,360 demon out of our younger daughter. 1685 01:33:45,680 --> 01:33:47,760 So they have their younger daughter who's maybe like 8 or 9 1686 01:33:47,760 --> 01:33:50,360 years old, and she's just off there playing by the side, just 1687 01:33:50,360 --> 01:33:52,880 looks like an ordinary girl. And I'm like, OK, what's the 1688 01:33:52,880 --> 01:33:55,520 situation? So I'm asking questions and 1689 01:33:55,520 --> 01:33:57,840 they're saying, well, she has a she has a demon. 1690 01:33:57,840 --> 01:34:00,080 The demon makes a go go into a complete rage. 1691 01:34:00,080 --> 01:34:02,480 She destroys everything. It happens at home, it happens 1692 01:34:02,480 --> 01:34:04,280 at school. Social services think we're 1693 01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:05,800 abusing her. We're not abusing her, but 1694 01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:07,040 they're threatening to take her away. 1695 01:34:07,280 --> 01:34:09,800 We know it's a demon because the older daughter had it is the one 1696 01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:12,560 who's interpreting and she got delivered and the mother had it 1697 01:34:12,560 --> 01:34:14,440 and she got delivered and the grandmother had it and she got 1698 01:34:14,440 --> 01:34:15,800 delivered. So it's some demon that's passed 1699 01:34:15,800 --> 01:34:18,480 down the generations, right? So they're telling me this 1700 01:34:18,480 --> 01:34:22,240 story. Anyway, I'm asking questions and 1701 01:34:22,440 --> 01:34:24,920 they're like, well, the, the, the husband sits on that side of 1702 01:34:24,920 --> 01:34:26,360 the church. The wife sits on this side of 1703 01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:27,960 the church. They do not get on right. 1704 01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:29,520 They've got major problems in their family. 1705 01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:32,480 And they're like, yeah, they're like, yeah, we have big problems 1706 01:34:32,480 --> 01:34:34,880 in our family. We don't get on, but they're 1707 01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:36,360 standing. But we want, we need you to cast 1708 01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:38,720 a demon out of our, our daughter, you know, and I'm 1709 01:34:38,720 --> 01:34:40,240 sitting there, the more I'm talking to them, the more I'm 1710 01:34:40,240 --> 01:34:43,360 thinking like, my, my gosh, can I put them through 2 1/2 years 1711 01:34:43,360 --> 01:34:46,360 of like and multimodal counselling to try and sort 1712 01:34:46,360 --> 01:34:49,240 these things out? Like I'm, I'm very much like my, 1713 01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:51,800 my scepticism metres through the roof. 1714 01:34:51,800 --> 01:34:53,200 And what were you talking about? Demon? 1715 01:34:53,200 --> 01:34:55,200 You don't need a freaking demon to be in this environment. 1716 01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:57,480 It'll be kicking off. You know, that's, that's what 1717 01:34:57,480 --> 01:34:59,240 I'm thinking. So I'm there about 10 minutes, 1718 01:34:59,240 --> 01:35:01,120 I'm having this conversation, I'm asking questions. 1719 01:35:01,480 --> 01:35:03,160 I'm a little bit like, I'm still at a loss. 1720 01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:07,040 Anyway, I said to them, all right, OK, let let's pray then 1721 01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:09,400 because they, they would go into the Bible when Jesus casts out 1722 01:35:09,400 --> 01:35:11,800 the, the demon from the boy and they say we want you just to do 1723 01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:13,840 that. Well, just do that, just do 1724 01:35:13,840 --> 01:35:16,240 that. And I'm like, OK, And I said, 1725 01:35:16,480 --> 01:35:18,000 should we pray then? And they said, yeah, that's what 1726 01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:19,320 we wanted you to do in the 1st place. 1727 01:35:21,040 --> 01:35:23,800 So I said, OK, so we just sat and stood there quietly for a 1728 01:35:23,800 --> 01:35:26,960 moment and internally I said, Holy Spirit, I have no idea what 1729 01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:30,440 to do. To me, this looks like this 1730 01:35:30,440 --> 01:35:33,400 looks like a major problem, you know, and how on earth am I 1731 01:35:33,400 --> 01:35:34,480 supposed to do anything about that? 1732 01:35:35,840 --> 01:35:38,080 And I to me, I'm like, I acknowledge all of that. 1733 01:35:38,080 --> 01:35:40,400 So I see all of that. I'm not trying to deny it. 1734 01:35:40,400 --> 01:35:42,880 That's how it appears to me. So it's the Holy Spirit. 1735 01:35:42,880 --> 01:35:45,680 That's how it appears to me. Now I've acknowledged that I'm 1736 01:35:45,680 --> 01:35:48,520 putting that to one side blank slate. 1737 01:35:48,520 --> 01:35:51,920 What do you say? And all I had was the thought 1738 01:35:51,920 --> 01:35:54,400 that came to me was an old is an old Celtic prayer, which is 1739 01:35:54,400 --> 01:35:56,640 called the circling prayer, where they used to walk around 1740 01:35:56,640 --> 01:35:59,240 in a circle and pray. So that's all that came to me. 1741 01:35:59,440 --> 01:36:03,120 And it was just some I just said to them, OK, I felt I felt like 1742 01:36:03,120 --> 01:36:05,120 I should do a circling prowl. I'll walk around you and just 1743 01:36:05,120 --> 01:36:06,840 pray. And they do you like that. 1744 01:36:06,840 --> 01:36:08,080 They said, yeah, that's good. Let's do it. 1745 01:36:08,240 --> 01:36:10,720 So I walked around them and I stopped and I just declared in 1746 01:36:10,720 --> 01:36:12,600 Jesus name this done. OK, Nothing. 1747 01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:14,240 Fine. They were just happy they went 1748 01:36:14,240 --> 01:36:16,600 away. From that day, their daughter 1749 01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:19,040 never had another episode, which is just better. 1750 01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:22,120 I saw them years later. Even to this day, I've bumped 1751 01:36:22,120 --> 01:36:24,040 into them occasionally. They always run up to me. 1752 01:36:24,280 --> 01:36:25,320 Oh, it's good. Great to see. 1753 01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:27,680 It's great to see. Never another problem with the 1754 01:36:27,680 --> 01:36:31,000 daughter again. I have I still to this day don't 1755 01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:32,920 know what happened. I don't know. 1756 01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:34,240 Was it a demon? Wasn't it a demon? 1757 01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:36,800 Like what's the deal? I don't know. 1758 01:36:37,040 --> 01:36:38,640 I don't understand about any of those things. 1759 01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:41,520 But I do know that you can ask Kylie Spirit, how should I pray? 1760 01:36:41,520 --> 01:36:42,840 And you can just kind of go with that. 1761 01:36:43,080 --> 01:36:44,760 And I feel like we'd get to do the simple. 1762 01:36:44,760 --> 01:36:47,520 He gets to do the hard and again, it comes back to the 1763 01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:50,120 question of simplicity and I just find this face and go with 1764 01:36:50,120 --> 01:36:52,120 that. I've done the complicated and 1765 01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:54,960 the complicated doesn't work. It gets more and more 1766 01:36:54,960 --> 01:36:58,040 complicated the more you do it. So I can't do it anymore. 1767 01:36:58,240 --> 01:37:00,360 Now if some people are getting life from the complicated and 1768 01:37:00,360 --> 01:37:01,960 stuff's working for them, all right, God bless you. 1769 01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:04,200 I'm not coming to try to say to you don't do it. 1770 01:37:04,200 --> 01:37:05,760 I'm just saying I can't do that stuff. 1771 01:37:06,600 --> 01:37:08,680 Maybe you need to pray for me and I'll get something. 1772 01:37:08,680 --> 01:37:11,680 I'm also cool with that, right? I've got no, I've got no 1773 01:37:11,680 --> 01:37:16,080 problem. But but yeah, for me, I'm like, 1774 01:37:16,160 --> 01:37:17,800 I'm, I'm praying for good outcomes. 1775 01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:21,080 I believe for good outcomes, but I also recognise that not all 1776 01:37:21,080 --> 01:37:22,880 outcomes are good. But it's not the end of the 1777 01:37:22,880 --> 01:37:26,360 story because Christ has the final word and he had the final 1778 01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:27,640 word the day he rose from the dead. 1779 01:37:28,080 --> 01:37:32,400 And that still speaks right now. And so there's an opportunity 1780 01:37:32,400 --> 01:37:35,160 there to say, all right, what does this is the victory that 1781 01:37:35,160 --> 01:37:37,000 has overcome the world, even our faith. 1782 01:37:37,480 --> 01:37:40,640 Not that our faith means that everything suddenly is OK. 1783 01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:42,840 No, he's made it OK in the resurrection. 1784 01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:46,080 We've seen the end. Now there's therefore should be 1785 01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:48,440 no more fear of death. If there is fear of death, it's 1786 01:37:48,440 --> 01:37:50,640 still because the one who fears is not yet made perfect in love. 1787 01:37:50,880 --> 01:37:53,800 So let's pray along those lines. OK, Father, I need more of a 1788 01:37:53,800 --> 01:37:55,880 revelation of your love today because I'm not living out of 1789 01:37:56,000 --> 01:37:58,440 it. And it is diverting me to a 1790 01:37:58,440 --> 01:38:01,480 lower form of prayer. So can you upgrade that again 1791 01:38:01,480 --> 01:38:03,840 for me? That's how I would that's not 1792 01:38:03,840 --> 01:38:06,400 how I would. That is how I how I approach it, 1793 01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:08,880 but I can't. I did all the all the books, you 1794 01:38:08,880 --> 01:38:10,240 know, pray this way, do that thing. 1795 01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:12,880 You know, here's here are the 100 keys to dealing with 100 1796 01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:15,000 different demons. You know, all of it. 1797 01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:18,040 And it is just just leaves me cold. 1798 01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:21,840 But yeah, I mean, if it's if it's working for you, cool. 1799 01:38:21,920 --> 01:38:25,000 I mean, I'm I'm happy if people are getting free and good stuff 1800 01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:27,240 happening. I suspect it will even if it is 1801 01:38:27,240 --> 01:38:28,920 working for you, it will probably break down at some 1802 01:38:28,920 --> 01:38:30,160 point because that's what happened to me. 1803 01:38:30,160 --> 01:38:32,640 It worked for me to an extent for a while and then didn't. 1804 01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:35,840 So I think that's probably where it's going. 1805 01:38:35,840 --> 01:38:37,200 But I mean, I don't know, I might be wrong. 1806 01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:40,040 You like, give me, give me what you got. 1807 01:38:40,080 --> 01:38:44,400 You know, that's my take. But we pray to see, we pray for 1808 01:38:44,400 --> 01:38:47,800 revelation of, of love, because that's that is what transforms 1809 01:38:47,800 --> 01:38:49,160 everything when we recognise that. 1810 01:38:49,600 --> 01:38:52,560 And you know, if you, if you feel like you need somebody, lay 1811 01:38:52,560 --> 01:38:54,960 hands on you, then do it. And if you feel like you need to 1812 01:38:54,960 --> 01:38:57,520 talk to US, one of the one of the Saints in the cloud of 1813 01:38:57,520 --> 01:38:59,400 witnesses and do it. You don't have a conversation 1814 01:38:59,400 --> 01:39:00,920 with Archangel Raphael. I don't care. 1815 01:39:00,920 --> 01:39:05,360 Like just do it in Christ right then you're, you make make 1816 01:39:05,360 --> 01:39:08,560 contact with whatever the whatever the vehicle of grace is 1817 01:39:08,560 --> 01:39:11,760 for you right now. And it might look different 1818 01:39:11,760 --> 01:39:16,160 today than tomorrow. Is that enough? 1819 01:39:16,160 --> 01:39:19,240 9:45 Cheers, everyone. Thank you. 1820 01:39:19,240 --> 01:39:19,520 Thank you.