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So we're it's the penultimate 
session, so last one next month.

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And I think I was talking to 
Malcolm. 

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I think I haven't been here for 
2. 

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So last time I was in Italy at 
the Waiwan base there having a 

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good time. 
And then the month before I 

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think was the month I forgot 
tried, yeah, tried to tried to 

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make it work. 
So I thought tonight the topic 

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is the Apostolic vision of 
Christ in John and Paul. 

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So the Pauline writings, Johanna
and writings, and particularly 

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looking at why it is that the 
main emphasis begins with Christ

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as creator and sustainer. 
So we can get into that and I 

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want to get into that, but 
particularly because I haven't 

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been here for two months, I'd be
quite interested to hear where 

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everybody's AT and just maybe 
freewheel it and see where we 

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end up. 
And that can be we'll, we can do

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stuff specifically on the topic 
for today. 

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But I'd also like to begin maybe
by just opening it up. 

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And that's why I've got that 
other microphone if you're happy

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for that to get on the podcast. 
But before I do that, we do have

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the conference next weekend, 
which is here on Saturday. 

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It's going to be all day here on
Saturday with Baxter and Jason 

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Clark from the rethinking of 
with Tacos podcast. 

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So I'm, I'm about to be up with 
them in Edinburgh from this 

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weekend. 
And then they're, they're coming

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down. 
We've got another event on the 

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Friday the 29th, but on the 30th
we're here. 

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And as I said, did I just say 
Baxter will be here Sunday 

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morning as well? 
So he's, he's preaching at 

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church on Sunday morning. 
I I really could do with two or 

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three more volunteers for the 
day, particularly someone who 

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can do PA systems. 
I do not have APA operator. 

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So if anybody is willing to step
up and PA operate, that goes for

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anyone listening on the podcast 
as well. 

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I would appreciate it. 
But also, if you're not away on 

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holiday, you really should be 
here. 

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I mean, I, I really mean that 
you should be here. 

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If you're away, then you're 
away. 

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He's in Greece and you can, 
yeah, come back for it. 

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But yeah, we've got, we've got 
100, about 150 books in already.

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Actually, very few people from 
Hope are booked in. 

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And I don't know if that's 
because people from Hope are 

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going to book in late or because
they're just thinking they're 

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going to turn up or because they
don't want to come or I don't 

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really know. 
Sorry. 

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Well, if you've done the course,
I'd say that's like a double 

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reason to want to come. 
So we'll start at it's 10:10 AM,

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start in the morning. 
We've got sessions that will run

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up to 630, but we'll have like 
an hour after that also for sort

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of discussion and connection 
time with obviously breaks in 

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the day. 
So. 

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So it's a it's a day programme 
on the Saturday, but basically, 

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yeah. 
Yeah. 

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Just the mic. 
Yeah. 

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Thank you. 
Thank you, Esther. 

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Much appreciated. 
Grand. 

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And if anyone's got anyone who 
does an instrument who wants to 

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play in the band as well. 
Grace asked me to say that if 

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anyone wants to join in for a 
jam session, when we do worship,

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we do jam sessions. 
Just so you know. 

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I mean, for anyone who doesn't, 
Grace and I have, we, we've done

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ministry together. 
In fact, our second date was 

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running a healing meeting and 
then we went out for dinner. 

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So we, we've been doing ministry
together forever. 

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And if when we do, when we do 
the like the worship stuff, 

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it's, it's a jam session really.
It's not the sort of classic in 

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the can type thing. 
So it's, it, it, it's good fun. 

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So you can turn up with the harp
or trumpet or a pair of spoons 

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and see what interesting 
spontaneous creative thing comes

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out. 
Well, maybe, maybe you could get

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that, that anointing, you know, 
from who are the two guys? 

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The first people who it says 
they were filled with the 

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spirit. 
Is it bizarro? 

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And who's the other guy? 
The two guys and they were, they

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were the creative types, right? 
So they couldn't do anything. 

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You get the idea that they, they
just can't do anything. 

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And then they get the Holy 
Spirit. 

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Now suddenly they can, they can 
like go create these incredible 

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sculptures and things like that.
So yeah, if you want, if you 

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want to claim that one, come on,
Malcolm, it's the age of AI. 

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You should be able to do it. 
Like, surely 

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Tuvan throat singing. 
Tuvan throat singing. 

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Well, there's Mongolian throat 
singing as well. 

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Yeah. 
There's all these disciplines of

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throat singing. 
Yeah. 

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Kun Hortu. 
Any Kun Hortu fans in the room? 

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So I was. 
I'm always too aspirational with

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these things, you know, Tuvan 
throat singing. 

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Not were not for the podcast. 
I will ask me again after I 

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finish the recording. 
And I'll do. 

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No, I don't know. 
Oh, was it? 

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Oh, there we go. 
OK. 

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See. 
Pop culture references. 

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I think Khun Hrutu are from 
Mongolia. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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Well, you're halfway there. 
A Cossack of course, on the 

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recording. 
At the moment people can only 

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hear my side of this 
conversation and just for the 

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benefit of people listening at 
home, there is a very random and

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hilarious conversation going on.
You just have to take my word 

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for it and laugh. 
We used to do that Again, those 

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of you who don't know, I trained
as a conference interpreter so 

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when we we would do 
interpreting. 

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Most jokes are untranslatable 
you know somebody says a joke 

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how do you translate it? 
Certainly in the moment, most of

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the time you can't. 
So the trick we always teach 

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students is if somebody tells a 
joke, you just say the speaker 

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right now just told a joke. 
It was extremely funny. 

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If you all laugh, you'll do me a
good favour and they'll think 

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they told a good joke. 
And then everybody laughs and 

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the speaker thinks that, oh, my 
joke landed really well. 

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And it's, it's one of those 
sleight of hand tricks of the of

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the interpreters. 
That's something an AI 

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interpreter won't do for you 
anyway. 

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So, yeah, next week, just talk 
to me. 

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I'll give you details. 
Can we do? 

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I'd like, I just like. 
I'm going to pray while I hand 

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this mic around for feedback. 
Hugh is in the middle of telling

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an interesting story, so maybe 
he wants to start. 

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Yeah. 
Thanks, Father. 

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We receive what you have for us 
tonight. 

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Thank you for your 
recalibration, your paradigm 

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shifts, and your unveiling of 
the exceedingly good news. 

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Amen, Hugh. 
Well, it was simply that we, I 

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have a friend who lives near 
London and we just became aware 

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that we're on a similar sort of 
journey, same sort of questions.

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So we just started connecting 
once a month, praying for each 

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other, sending each other little
messages and that sort of thing.

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And he, I actually read this 
this morning and I saw this is 

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one of the ones that I sent to 
him, which was this is from some

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I'm reading, me and Susie both 
reading John together at the 

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moment, trying to look at it 
through this sort of lens. 

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And this scripture came up this 
morning, which was from John 12,

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verse 24. 
So this is very truly, I tell 

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you, unless a grain of wheat 
falls to the ground and dies, it

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remains only a single seed. 
But if it dies, it produces many

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seeds. 
Anyone who loves their life will

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lose it, while anyone who hates 
their life in this world will 

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keep it for eternal life. 
Whoever serves me must follow 

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me, and where I am, my servant 
also will be. 

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My Father will honour the one 
who serves me. 

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So my reflection was that 
previously I'd always shrink 

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away from verses like this, 
partly because I love to love 

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life, and anything that taught 
me that I had to hate my life, I

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would kind of think, well, if 
Jesus is telling me that I don't

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want it really. 
I mean, I think that's probably 

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a, whether you call it 
subconscious or whatever. 

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Do you see what I mean? 
It's something. 

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And I suppose if you hold that, 
then the natural follow on from 

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that is to say, well, I can't 
give Jesus my whole self because

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it's a bit scary because I have 
to lose the life that I that I 

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want. 
Not that I just that I love, but

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I want to love. 
Does that make sense? 

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It's about wanting to love life 
and live life. 

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So actually, if you read it from
the lens of actually, and this 

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is what I said to my friend in 
the message was actually I'm 

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reading it like Jesus wants to 
give us life and life in all its

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fullness. 
The life that he's offering is 

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an abundant and overflowing 
life. 

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And he's sharing with us that 
actually a bit like the sermon 

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that Bill preached the other 
time. 

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If you, if we learn how to die 
now to the life that is 

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perishing, that is futile and 
pointless, hopeless and 

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completely of this world and of 
nothing else. 

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If we can learn to die to that 
now and pick up the life that 

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Jesus has for us, that isn't 
hating life, that's loving life 

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and loving the best life. 
And that's what Jesus wants to 

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lead us into. 
So it's completely recalibrated 

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verse, that verse, those verses 
and verses like it for me. 

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Yeah. 
So the 20. 

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Three, just wanted to jump on 
that because I've been reading 

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John as well, quite deep a lot 
and and having the same sort of 

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experience of like reading 
things in new ways and finding 

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scriptures that previously would
have felt a bit heavy, feeling a

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bit light, lighter, a bit more 
exciting and had moments where 

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I've been reflecting with all 
the people. 

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And it's it's been fun because 
I've sometimes been reflecting 

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with them and they've been like,
Oh my gosh, that makes it sound 

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so much more like a life giving 
and so much more exciting. 

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So I think for me, like a lot of
the fruit of this journey a week

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going on has been the, the 
scripture is giving me my is 

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speaking to my heart more and 
giving me life in a way they did

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do before. 
But it, it, it was a bit more 

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intermittent and a bit more 
scattergun as to you know, what 

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you what you're going to get. 
I do have a question. 

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I don't know if now is a good 
time for a question or do you 

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want more? 
Reflection depends if if anyone 

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00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:08,360
if anyone else wants to chime in
first, I think they want you to 

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ask the. 
Question OK, so my question is 

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based around Gethsemane because 
it's the only only like it's the

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it's the one part where I'm not 
not one part, but like it's just

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been and it's something that 
I've come back to and gone. 

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00:11:30,390 --> 00:11:34,510
I don't know why this fits in 
the story of what we're talking 

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about, because if Jesus only 
does what he sees the Father 

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doing and then prays something 
that where it's like, father, if

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you want this or if, if you're 
happy to let this happen, can 

196
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,280
you let it happen? 
But then the father obviously 

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doesn't. 
Well, there's, there's a, 

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there's a, the conclusion that 
Jesus comes to is now I'm going 

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to the cross. 
And I do believe that that 

200
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wasn't a reluctant decision, 
that that was for the joy set 

201
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,800
before him. 
And he did, you know, that was 

202
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what Jesus wanted to do. 
I don't think he didn't want to 

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00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,400
go to the cross and the father 
did. 

204
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,880
But I still don't really know 
how to read that conversation 

205
00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:13,800
and that interaction and what 
was going on there. 

206
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,280
Yeah, it's interesting you bring
that up because evidently this 

207
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,960
was a question for the early 
church, because in, if you 

208
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,720
recall, in John's version of the
Garden of Gethsemane, he doesn't

209
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,720
say that. 
He says, and what should I say 

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now that my hour has come? 
Should I say let this cup pass 

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00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,120
from me? 
By no means so if we understand 

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00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,160
in the church tradition that 
John wrote the Gospel last, in 

213
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,720
fact, perhaps even the last book
to be written in the New 

214
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:44,160
Testament was the Gospel of 
John. 

215
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:50,120
And that he wrote it in part to 
make some theologic, not exactly

216
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,440
theological correction, but 
correction to the understanding 

217
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,280
that people were taking from the
stories that we're circulating 

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00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,640
about Jesus beforehand. 
That this, that's a very 

219
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:05,520
deliberate point that he makes. 
Equally, he makes the point that

220
00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:09,440
Jesus carried his own cross 
where you see and, and maybe all

221
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,280
of the others, at least some of 
the other, I think at least 

222
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Matthew, you have Simon of 
Cyrene carrying the cross 

223
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,240
because he falls, he's not able 
to carry himself. 

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And John makes the point of 
saying he carried his own cross 

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to Golgotha and those the the 
contradiction, if I put it in 

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those terms between those was 
not unknown to anybody. 

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00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,920
Like this was very obvious. 
It's not like a gotcha. 

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Sometimes you get atheist guys 
will be like, ah, you see it 

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00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,440
contradicts. 
Well, yeah, we we have always 

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00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:43,600
known that. 
Actually it's just the 

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00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,800
fundamentalists who pretended 
that these didn't contradict. 

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00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,160
But everybody always knew there 
was a reason why that there are 

233
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,320
two two different lights are 
being like light is being shown 

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00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,520
from two different directions on
what's happening here. 

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So I think what you see in Jesus
expression in the garden, let 

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00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,160
the cut pass from me, It's it's 
an extension of my God, my God, 

237
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,600
why have you forsaken me? 
This is him entering into the 

238
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fullness of the Adamic 
experience. 

239
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,480
That's him associating himself 
fully with our suffering. 

240
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He, he doesn't not feel what's 
going to happen to him. 

241
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,520
So he suffers on the cross. 
He's not impassive. 

242
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,840
This was a problem, 
incidentally, in the whole Aryan

243
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,840
controversy because this idea 
of, well, God is impassive. 

244
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,880
God can't suffer anything 
because he's so transcendent. 

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He's so above and beyond, he 
can't suffer anything. 

246
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,520
So here you have Jesus 
suffering. 

247
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,560
So therefore he must be less 
than God. 

248
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,360
So there's this idea that God 
cannot inhabit or come into 

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human suffering because that 
would be less than, it would be 

250
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,960
lower than. 
And hence the Aryan controversy.

251
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,960
This is well, Jesus is a supreme
being, but he's not God. 

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00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,640
He's a creation, part of that. 
It's not the only reason, but 

253
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,800
it's part of that. 
So you, you have John coming at 

254
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,280
things from another angle. 
He he is really emphasising the 

255
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,320
divinity of Christ throughout 
this. 

256
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,000
So when Jesus carries his own 
cross, he's making a point of 

257
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:12,640
saying the the existential and 
epistemic weight of the whole of

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00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,120
human tragedy throughout all 
history is being carried by him 

259
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,960
alone. 
But in the eyewitness account, 

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physically he has someone else. 
He falls as someone else 

261
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:24,560
carries. 
But that's also part of the 

262
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,120
story. 
He's pushed beyond his limit and

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00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,240
he and he must be pushed beyond 
his limit because if he's not 

264
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,120
pushed beyond the limit, then 
there still might be a limit 

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00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,680
that he hasn't gone to. 
So I think that again, having 

266
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,960
having a window on that helps us
to grow up a little bit in how 

267
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,400
we understand the Apostolic 
witness and what's going on 

268
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,480
here, rather than thinking about
it in again, the the well 

269
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,360
meaning but misguided 
fundamentalism that just says 

270
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,680
like a mathematical equation. 
All of these things add up 

271
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,560
literally in the plain black and
white text. 

272
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,320
And then you, as long as you put
them together right, then you 

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00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,480
get something that is completely
perfect without any and anything

274
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:08,920
that doesn't sort of seem to fit
together. 

275
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:10,800
The New Testament doesn't work 
like that. 

276
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,720
And hopefully we we're 
comfortable with that as an 

277
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,480
idea. 
But that that certainly is the 

278
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:16,600
case. 
The the early church was 

279
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,560
comfortable with this because 
they were they were very close 

280
00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:20,920
to it. 
They could read the original 

281
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,880
language. 
Yeah, obviously there are there 

282
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,920
are differences in emphasis and 
in some instances differences in

283
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,080
description, but these are 
really not even Origin talks 

284
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,400
about this directly. 
He, he addresses it and, and 

285
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,840
sort of has a, he takes, he 
takes a low view of those who 

286
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,800
get really get really hung up on
or was it 1 Angel or two at the 

287
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,160
tomb and all these sorts of 
things. 

288
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,000
And that this is really not the,
this isn't the point. 

289
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:55,240
So in, in that sense, we're 
seeing different, we could, we 

290
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,240
could understand we're seeing 
different sides of the mystery 

291
00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,200
that is Christ fully man and 
fully God. 

292
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:05,839
So yes, when he's in the garden,
he is expressing the full heart 

293
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:07,640
of the Father. 
But at that I don't, I think 

294
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,359
that what he's trying to show us
is he's he's not there in the 

295
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,359
garden feeling very happy. 
He's not there in this sort of 

296
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,079
serene, blissful state like I'm 
about to go to the cross. 

297
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:18,800
That would be kind of anti 
material. 

298
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,160
And particularly John in other 
parts of of the gospel is very 

299
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:26,680
keen to show that that's not the
case. 

300
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,240
So he has Jesus eating, cooking 
and eating fish after his 

301
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,880
resurrection to show he's 
actually physically raised. 

302
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,680
He's not just a spirit being or 
something. 

303
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,600
He gets hungry, you know, he 
gets tired. 

304
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,000
So there's, there's a 
theological thing that's 

305
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,840
happening there. 
Yeah. 

306
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:45,880
If that's sufficient to answer 
it. 

307
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:47,440
I mean, you notice there are 
other things in the passion 

308
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,160
narrative in John. 
It's much longer in John than 

309
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,520
anywhere else. 
It's a substantial part of the 

310
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:57,160
gospel is the passion narrative.
You get this The part where the 

311
00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,400
the Roman soldiers and the 
emissaries from the Sanhedrin 

312
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,040
and they all turn up in this 
massive crowd and three times 

313
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,320
they ask him, we seek Jesus of 
Nazareth and he says I am and 

314
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:07,800
they all draw back and fall to 
the ground. 

315
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,800
You know, they get wiped out and
you don't that's not listed in 

316
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,880
the other gospels. 
So it's listed there for a 

317
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,840
reason. 
It's not just an extra detail or

318
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,480
you guys miss this out. 
This is John again. 

319
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,440
We accept the the credible 
tradition, you know, despite I 

320
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,200
think attempts, you know, every 
all these different critical 

321
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,480
Bible scholars try and come up 
with a different angle to prove 

322
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,920
their justify another book. 
You know, let's argue about why 

323
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,200
it wasn't really John or why it 
was this or why it was that. 

324
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:39,680
Actually the the the church 
tradition is a pretty solid 

325
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,920
church tradition as to how we 
ended up with something like the

326
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,760
Gospel of John. 
So I think we can understand 

327
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:52,920
that John is drawing out certain
key things to make a spiritual 

328
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:58,760
point, which is what Irenaeus 
says about it 22 generations on 

329
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,520
from John, direct spiritual 
lineage. 

330
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,680
You know, John Polycarp, 
Irenaeus and Irenaeus is the one

331
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,200
saying This is why John wrote 
the Gospel. 

332
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,920
So you'd have thought he would 
know because the guy who 

333
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,440
mentored him was directly 
mentored by John. 

334
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,400
So you'd have, you'd figure that
if there's any integrity to this

335
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,520
tradition at all, he would be a 
credible source on that one. 

336
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:22,080
Yeah. 
Thank you. 

337
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:36,960
I really liked the the session 
9, the the I think it was the 

338
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,120
first one actually that I 
thought, OK, I kind of I kind of

339
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:46,400
understood Baxter or got and I 
got it a bit more, but two 

340
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,240
questions. 
So 1 was so it was the one with 

341
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,160
the cups. 
Yeah, you talked about the three

342
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:57,960
cups. 
And so I think I, I think I, I 

343
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:03,440
think I enjoyed it because when 
I liked it, because I like, I, I

344
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:08,280
think it felt like all the way 
he was talking about, you know, 

345
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:15,480
everybody, Jesus being in 
everybody for me, for me. 

346
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,560
Any which way you split kind of 
separation and hell and all of 

347
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,640
those things is there's an 
element of fear and A and a 

348
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:29,760
difficultness in. 
In selling that story and, and 

349
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:35,880
it, and it felt like, OK, I, I 
can see that this is truly a 

350
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,720
gospel of grace in the way that 
he was talking about it. 

351
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,200
So I, I was like, I was like, 
great, I'm, I'm on for that. 

352
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,480
But one question was, so he 
talked, he talked from 

353
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,200
Colossians, I think Colossians 
29. 

354
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:59,520
And he talked about because I'm 
guessing, I'm guessing like in 

355
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,280
the room here, there would be a 
lot of us or some of us who 

356
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,480
would say, like, I'm on for that
idea that Jesus is in everybody 

357
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,360
before they've made a decision. 
And some of us, some people 

358
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:16,960
would say, I'm not on for that. 
And I'm guessing that one of 

359
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,960
one. 
So Baxter talks about South 

360
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,280
Colossians 29 in Christ, all the
fullness of the deity lives in 

361
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,400
bodily form and in Christ you 
have been brought to to 

362
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,720
fullness. 
So he was talking about I think 

363
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,520
he he talked about have been 
like past tense. 

364
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:40,120
So and I guess so first question
is, I'm guessing some people 

365
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:43,360
would say, but Colossians is 
talking to the church. 

366
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,920
So he's talking to people who 
are already in. 

367
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,760
So that was question mark. 
So that's my first question. 

368
00:21:50,040 --> 00:22:01,960
And second question was? 
And second question was he was 

369
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:09,640
asked a question about 
universalism and it like, I 

370
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,000
guess it felt a little bit like 
you've not fluffed the answer, 

371
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,880
but a little bit really. 
And it, and it so it feels to me

372
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:23,040
like, so I don't have a problem 
with that label or that tag, but

373
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:28,640
it doesn't feel like in these 
discussions, we're owning that. 

374
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,720
And I'm guessing my question is,
are we not owning it because 

375
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:40,600
from our evangelical like roots,
that word, liberal word are bad 

376
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,360
words. 
You know, we, we, we, we, we, we

377
00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:48,040
see them as not words we can 
that don't that don't have 

378
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:53,720
integrity as in biblical 
integrity or so is it 'cause we,

379
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,880
we don't want to like make 
divide or. 

380
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,520
Yeah, well, I can, I can, I can 
answer that very directly from 

381
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,760
three different perspectives. 
I can answer it from my own. 

382
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,000
Like I I'm on the record of 
having owned that. 

383
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,520
I mean, I've been very public 
in, in debates and things on 

384
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,600
various podcasts and different 
positions, even in my book are 

385
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:20,720
very overt Baxter from I, I 
look, Charlie's asking about the

386
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,640
concept of universalism and I 
said, I've been very overt about

387
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,120
owning that and saying, yeah, 
this is this is the logical 

388
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,800
conclusion of the New Testament 
testimony. 

389
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,400
And I've also been very overt 
about the problems I have with 

390
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,080
it. 
Again, if you've read my book, 

391
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:43,680
you'll know good plug there. 
But the, as far as this, the 

392
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,480
course itself goes, it's not 
really the, the, that's a, 

393
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,080
that's an eschatological 
question. 

394
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,240
So that's about eschatology, 
right? 

395
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,040
Where, what, what's the end 
direction? 

396
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:58,800
You know, how, how, where does 
this all end up? 

397
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,840
And I think that the, the, the 
point of this course is to 

398
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,640
reframe how we consider these 
questions and to, to couch them 

399
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,120
more properly according to the 
Apostolic witness and to get 

400
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,640
free from some of the baggage 
we've inherited from the Western

401
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,320
system. 
It's quite often people want to 

402
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,400
fast track to secondary or 
tertiary sort of downstream 

403
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,240
doctrinal conclusions. 
So eschatology is a downstream 

404
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,240
doctrinal conclusion. 
The creature says he's coming 

405
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:31,720
again to judge the living and 
the dead. 

406
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,320
That's it. 
There's no, there's going to be 

407
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,000
a millennial reign, there's 
going to be this, there's going 

408
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,600
to be that, you know, all of 
that stuff. 

409
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,200
This is all downstream. 
It's not, it's not there in the 

410
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,320
central point. 
And so the, the purpose of this 

411
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,120
course is not primarily to 
address the issues downstream, 

412
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:52,840
it's to help equip us to be able
to address those downstream for 

413
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,440
ourselves in our own way. 
And people might come to 

414
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,880
different conclusions on those 
sorts of questions. 

415
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,520
So we sometimes talk about this,
this is a Christological 

416
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,720
recalibration or a 
Christological correction. 

417
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,640
Then inevitably the question 
does arise. 

418
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,160
So I can say again, Baxter was 3
weeks ago on the, on the podcast

419
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,440
of a mutual friend of ours, 
which if anybody is particularly

420
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,640
interested in this topic, it's 
the podcast is called Grace 

421
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,000
Saves All the Necessity of 
Christian Universalism. 

422
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,520
And run by a friend of mine in 
the US who basically has 

423
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,720
interviewed and continuing to 
interview more or less anyone on

424
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,640
the planet scholarship wise, 
pastorally or anything who is, 

425
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,680
is coming from anything in that 
sort of direction. 

426
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,280
And Baxter was on, I've been on 
a couple of times on that 

427
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:41,520
podcast. 
I've been on the debate on that 

428
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:47,480
podcast and he, Baxter was on 
really addressing again, this 

429
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,600
question very directly. 
And then so for the Third Point 

430
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:57,440
is from Baxter's perspective, he
and I again will I, I, I agree 

431
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,040
with this. 
The, the point is not like 

432
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,280
universalism is another ISM. 
It also could mean 100 different

433
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,480
things depending on where you're
coming from with it. 

434
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,760
And so it's not necessarily that
useful a word given that you 

435
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,200
have no idea what somebody's 
talking about when they mean it.

436
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,480
One of the points he makes in 
the in the lecture is, well, if 

437
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,640
you believe that all are 
inheritors of original sin in 

438
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,480
Adam, then you are a 
universalist because you believe

439
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,880
something happened in Adam that 
universally took everybody, you 

440
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,240
know, on the wrong side of the 
line. 

441
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,960
So that that is itself a type of
universalism in the sense that 

442
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:37,240
the impact is universal. 
So the, the bigger issue here, 

443
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,320
from my perspective, is the 
framing of our soteriology has 

444
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:47,080
been in this Western legal, in 
our innocent guilty mindset. 

445
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:52,440
And that again, that's a 
downstream doctrine, which is 

446
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,600
why we take seven weeks before 
we get to the subject of the 

447
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,760
atonement. 
So week 7, I know I wasn't here,

448
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,760
but the, or month 7, the, the, 
the question about the cross, 

449
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,440
because there's a lot of this 
foundational stuff needs to be 

450
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,440
put in place before we can then 
begin to look at the cross. 

451
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,880
We've inherited so much baggage 
from how we begin to, you know, 

452
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,840
engage with these things. 
So I think then the, the issue 

453
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,000
with what the word means is a 
problem. 

454
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,800
It's a trigger word for some 
people and for others it's not. 

455
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,240
And then you get into, well, why
is it a trigger word for you? 

456
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,880
And often the, the, the, the 
bigger problem there is people 

457
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,640
haven't even been able to have a
forum to be able to explore 

458
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,200
their own issues, dissonances 
and concerns around the whole 

459
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,440
equation, the whole soteriology 
equation. 

460
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,400
Many, many people. 
Soteriology is what, what is 

461
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,160
salvation? 
How does salvation work? 

462
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:47,840
So a great many people are in 
that, in that space where it's 

463
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,560
not even a conversation that's 
safe to have. 

464
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,600
Because as soon as you start 
having that conversation in a 

465
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,960
lot of churches, immediately 
people are terrified by it. 

466
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,600
And they're probably terrified 
with it about it because they've

467
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,560
got their own dissonance around 
the issue too. 

468
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,120
I had one pastor, after sitting 
with a good friend of mine, sat 

469
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:05,280
with him for a couple of hours 
over lunch one day. 

470
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,520
And towards the end, he said, 
well, you know, if I didn't 

471
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,240
believe I was saving people from
an eternal hell, I wouldn't be a

472
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,520
pastor. 
So his whole, his whole frame of

473
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,880
his calling, his ministry and 
everything, he was honest enough

474
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,200
to say that the way this 
doctrine has been framed to him 

475
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,440
of judgement is ultimately the 
when you boil it down, it is the

476
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,720
decisive factor as to why he has
made the decision to pursue 

477
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,880
being a pastor. 
Now with no I'll intent towards 

478
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,200
him at all. 
He's a he's a good friend of 

479
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:39,600
mine. 
I understand that. 

480
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,120
But how terrifying is that? 
And then you take he was he was 

481
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,000
willing enough to to be honest 
about it. 

482
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,680
How many people are not willing 
enough to be honest about it or 

483
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,120
haven't even been honest about 
it with their own selves and 

484
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,000
they are their pastoring 
churches, hundreds of them all 

485
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,080
over. 
And I've had a lot of them in my

486
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,360
counselling chair when it all 
breaks down because the the the 

487
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,360
dissonance and the pressure 
around what I'm supposed to be 

488
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,000
preaching a message of the the 
love of God is something I've 

489
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,280
experienced for myself. 
But actually within this 

490
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,960
ecosystem of this, of the 
message that we're we're 

491
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,000
propagating, it kind of doesn't 
really work, does it? 

492
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,760
And then you get the Calvinist 
thing and you get the Armenian 

493
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,560
thing, all these attempts to try
and square the circle, which 

494
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,760
frankly don't work. 
They're not, they're not 

495
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,760
logically, they're, they're 
nonsensical. 

496
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,360
So this is complex, it's deep 
waters, it's got lots of layers 

497
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,760
and it's very emotional. 
So I think that the word itself,

498
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,240
for many people, it's just, it's
a, it's an inflammatory word. 

499
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,720
When I'm travelling around and 
ministering, sometimes I will 

500
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,800
get up, depending on the 
audience, I will get up and I'll

501
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,880
say, I'm going to, I'm going to 
preach Hellfire to you tonight. 

502
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,560
I'm going to preach judgement. 
I'll use that language because 

503
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,120
it actually relaxes them. 
They're so, they're so used to 

504
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,840
it. 
If you're not using that, they 

505
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,440
start getting, they start 
worrying. 

506
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,840
Oh, what are you saying? 
Are you saying that it doesn't 

507
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,000
matter that we sin? 
Well, they ask the apostle Paul 

508
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,480
that too. 
So sometimes I say it and it 

509
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,120
just relaxes them. 
I've done it with Jehovah's 

510
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,160
Witnesses too. 
So do Jehovah's Witnesses. 

511
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,880
Don't worry, I believe in one 
God, Jehovah. 

512
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,680
I'm a Jehovah's Witness too. 
I believe in one God, Jehovah. 

513
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,040
I just don't come to your 
organisation, but I believe in 

514
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,440
one God. 
Like, let's pray together. 

515
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:14,960
We'll just pray to Jehovah. 
Don't worry. 

516
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,560
Nobody else. 
And it relaxes them, It chills 

517
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,040
them out. 
It's the only time I've been 

518
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,600
able to actually have really 
meaningful dialogue. 

519
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,040
One of the only times really 
meaningful dialogue in the 

520
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,320
Jehovah's Witness community was 
by adopting that approach. 

521
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,400
Because if I come in and say why
believe in the Trinity, 

522
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,720
immediately walls are up because
Trinity is a trigger word for 

523
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,920
that community. 
So a lot, a lot of this is about

524
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,160
sort of pastoral, you know, 
handling. 

525
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,080
And also by the way, if you look
throughout the church fathers, 

526
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,840
they had the same conversation. 
You look at Gregory of Nyssa, 

527
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,480
for example, saying very 
overtly, well, of course, we all

528
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,480
know that Christ is ultimately 
going to save everyone, but we 

529
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,720
can't communicate this to the 
masses because they will not 

530
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,240
know how to handle it. 
We need to keep it amongst those

531
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,160
of us who are educated and who 
understand how our 

532
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,200
responsibility as, you know, 
presbyters and pastors within 

533
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,080
the church that we're trying to 
look after people who can't 

534
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,520
handle, you know, they, they 
don't even know how to read. 

535
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,800
And if we start getting into 
this, we could really, we're 

536
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,960
afraid it's going to go wrong 
and they're all going to start 

537
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,480
thinking, oh, well, it doesn't 
matter what we do. 

538
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:15,200
And that's not what we're saying
either. 

539
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,240
So you actually have this record
of the conversation more than 

540
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,440
once, different key Saints and 
figures of the of the early 

541
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:26,240
church key to forming the Nicene
faith who who actually have this

542
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:27,880
very discussion. 
Again, it's not new. 

543
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,520
So and then you have others like
origin of Alexandria who say, 

544
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,480
look, I'm not coming to preach a
doctrine about this, but I am 

545
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,360
coming to speculate if we 
understand this is who Christ is

546
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,880
then, and he says I'm I'm 
flagging this as speculation. 

547
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,000
I might be thinking about this 
the wrong way, but let me show 

548
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,160
you my working. 
And he goes on to say, well, we 

549
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,160
should suppose that all if all 
things means all things, we 

550
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,400
should kind of see this is my 
paraphrase. 

551
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,080
I can't remember the exact 
wording, but he's saying he says

552
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,640
we should see on the 
eschatological horizon the 

553
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,680
reconstitution of all things, 
including satanic fallen demonic

554
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,440
spirits, right. 
Even he he gets into this 

555
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,360
discussion in in in his in his 
writings and an origin basically

556
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,480
is the progenitor of all Bible 
study. 

557
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,240
It comes back to him. 
You know, he is he is the one 

558
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:27,160
who who's teaching was the 
amongst the most Seminole of the

559
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,080
early church. 
I think he's called a doctor of 

560
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,080
the church. 
We weren't even calling them 

561
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,000
church fathers at the time. 
So again, these conversations 

562
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,600
are not those conversations 
could be had within that 

563
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,520
environment. 
A lot of the evangelical space. 

564
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,480
The conversation can't be had, 
even though I know for a fact 

565
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,400
because again, I've been around.
I was at a conference with, I'll

566
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,200
say he Roger Forster, who's gone
to glory now, founder of the 

567
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,240
Ichthus Fellowship. 
Roger and Faith. 

568
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,760
First time I met R.E.M., we did 
quite a bit of work together 

569
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,280
some years ago in the China 
space. 

570
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,160
The first time I talked to 
Roger, he said, what 

571
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,120
denomination are you connected? 
I said, well, I'm an Elim. 

572
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,760
He said, what did Elim think 
about, about the doctrine of 

573
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,240
hell? 
You know, do they believe in 

574
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,720
this eternal conscious torment 
thing or I said, well, I think 

575
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,680
they're pretty much in in that 
direction. 

576
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,200
And he said, you know, we sat 
with the heads of all the major 

577
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,280
or the majority of the major 
Evangelical Alliance 

578
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,440
denominations a couple of years 
ago. 

579
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,800
And the question was put to 
them, does anyone of you in this

580
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,000
room actually believe in an 
eternal hell in like burning 

581
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,320
hell? 
It's not a single person said 

582
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:31,800
that they did. 
In fact, they all said, no, we 

583
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,720
don't believe in that, but don't
tell our denominations because 

584
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,760
we'd get lynched. 
So there's a there's a political

585
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,000
problem here around even having 
the discussion. 

586
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,960
So I think that the, the point 
Baxter makes in that podcast, I 

587
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:47,440
do recommend listening to is 
very, very good. 

588
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,000
He's very, very articulate on 
this subject and very clear. 

589
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,440
The the podcast is called Grace 
saves all. 

590
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,520
David Ardman is the the podcast 
host and he's say he's he's 

591
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,160
become a good friend of mine and
he's it's a really very 

592
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,640
comprehensive resource across 
all sort of dimensions on the 

593
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,360
subject. 
But Baxter makes the points as 

594
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,400
we do not preach universalism 
because it's an ISM, we preach 

595
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,239
Christ. 
And that's to say that none of 

596
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:20,320
this is to be removed from its 
relational context and placed 

597
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,320
into some sort of principle that
says this is a philosophical 

598
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,120
principle, that everybody is 
saved. 

599
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,800
That's not what we're preaching.
We're preaching all are included

600
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,199
in Christ. 
Now, what are you going to do 

601
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:34,280
about it? 
Because that demands a response.

602
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,840
This sort of shallow, what's 
this kind of pop shallow 

603
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,800
universalism that gets thrown 
around that basically says, 

604
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,480
well, all dogs go to heaven and 
everything's basically fine. 

605
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,480
It's like evidently everything 
is not fine. 

606
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:52,080
So this is a, this, this is not 
how it's articulated to us in 

607
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:53,840
the New Testament. 
It's not how it's articulated to

608
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,840
us in the, in the Church fathers
or really at any point in the, 

609
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:58,680
in the, you know, Orthodox 
faith. 

610
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,040
It's not put in those terms. 
It's put in terms of, look, God 

611
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,160
is a consuming fire and you're 
in relationship with him, 

612
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,680
whether you, whether you like it
or not, he's relating to you. 

613
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,880
You're in him. 
You have no life or being apart 

614
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,160
from him. 
So the question then is we'll 

615
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,760
project that forward. 
What does that mean? 

616
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,560
And I think if you want to, if 
you want to take it from the, 

617
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,480
the just the back to Bible 
verses, we want to play the 

618
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,600
proof text game. 
I, I mean, I sometimes say to 

619
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,400
people, all right, plug that 
into every knee shall bow and 

620
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,440
every tongue shall confess in 
heaven and earth and under the 

621
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,480
earth, Jesus Christ is Lord to 
the glory of God the Father. 

622
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,160
Like take that, take that verse 
and plug it into your framework.

623
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:39,360
Like, what are you going to do 
with that? 

624
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,520
Because it's possible to work 
your way through the new Tasman 

625
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,280
picking certain verses and end 
up with a fully universalist 

626
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,040
position. 
Or you can pick verses and end 

627
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,000
up with like an annihilation 
position, or you can pick a 

628
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,520
bunch of verses and end up in a 
everyone's going to burn in 

629
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,120
literal fire for eternity 
conclusion. 

630
00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:00,800
So which way you navigate 
through that, which path you 

631
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,920
navigate through the Scripture 
is going to end up somewhere 

632
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,120
completely different. 
And again, that's also why with 

633
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,400
this course, we're trying to 
encourage you not to do it like 

634
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,160
that. 
Actually, let's take a step 

635
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,560
back. 
What are the first principles 

636
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,200
here? 
The first principles are the 

637
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,440
revelation of God in Christ. 
It's Christological. 

638
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,160
Who is Jesus now from, from that
point? 

639
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,600
It it's, we're not looking for 
shallow doctrinal agreement or 

640
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,280
persuasion about any ideas. 
We're looking for life and 

641
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,000
reality. 
Well, of course we're using 

642
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,440
Scripture. 
Yeah, of course I'm not saying 

643
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,040
abandoned Scripture, but I'm 
saying don't. 

644
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,560
I'm saying we can take an 
approach to the Scripture that 

645
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,520
says we're going to, we're going
to sort of take step a stepping 

646
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,640
stone pathway through this verse
and this verse and this verse 

647
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,480
and this verse and this verse. 
And then we've constructed A 

648
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,680
doctrine out of those. 
That doctrine might be 

649
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,680
completely divorced from the 
revelation of God in Christ, but

650
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:55,680
it might be completely biblical,
like the snake handlers in the 

651
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,080
Haitian snake handlers in 
Brundage. 

652
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,520
Sorry. 
Well, but again, this goes back 

653
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:04,880
to my point about how do we read
the Scripture? 

654
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,480
The Scripture is the Scripture 
is multi layered, dynamic. 

655
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,880
It's turbulent. 
It's not this linear. 

656
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,360
Here are the ABC's of it's not, 
it's not a manual, right? 

657
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,200
It's not a legal text. 
What we tend to get in the 

658
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,560
fundamentalist space is we say 
the Bible, or I mean, I don't 

659
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,000
people say the Bible is the 
literal in the literal 

660
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,800
infallible inspired word of God,
and everything about it in its 

661
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,560
original text is completely true
in in all, in all ways, and 

662
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,560
therefore it is the source of 
authority and everything. 

663
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,240
But that's a statement. 
I don't want to be too negative 

664
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:40,120
on those guys. 
They were, they were trying to 

665
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,160
do something. 
This is Princeton theology, you 

666
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,880
know, turn of the 20th century. 
They're trying to put something 

667
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,320
down that recovers confidence in
the scripture when it had been 

668
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,520
completely wiped out in the sort
of late stages of post 

669
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,360
enlightenment thinking in the 
19th century. 

670
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:54,520
So they're trying to recover 
that. 

671
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,400
So I'm not, again, I'm not 
trying to slam them, but I'm 

672
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:02,520
trying to say that that doesn't 
really stand up when you subject

673
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,920
it to scrutiny, including the 
conversation we know we're 

674
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,400
having with Sam earlier. 
Well, did Jesus carry his own 

675
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,840
cross or not? 
Because one guy says he carried 

676
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,480
his own cross. 
One guy said he didn't carry his

677
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,400
own cross. 
So now if we're standing on, on 

678
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:20,600
the, the doctrine that this must
be infallible and the literal 

679
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,600
dictated word of God, like like 
Muslims believe the Quran is a 

680
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,600
literal dictated word. 
If if we treat it in that way, 

681
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,080
we have major problems from a 
faith point of view. 

682
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,080
It is, it is reliable, but it's 
reliable. 

683
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,440
But but what does it say about 
it's reliability again? 

684
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:44,760
And this is where we, it, it, it
defies our attempts to find 

685
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,440
shallow certainties, right. 
So you have the Apostle Paul, 

686
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,440
who's we know wrote the majority
of the New Testament talking 

687
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,520
about his own writings. 
And he says people make a big 

688
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,920
deal about having a letter from 
me, but you are my letter. 

689
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,320
So when he asks the questions 
about what even is the writing 

690
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,760
when that's up for debate for 
him. 

691
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,600
And Peter calls Paul's writing 
scripture, right. 

692
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,240
So when when he is even 
addressing this issue of all 

693
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:18,320
right, we have a written word 
that gives us an answer. 

694
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,360
He says, actually the real 
writing is in you. 

695
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,080
It's personal, it's relational. 
It's not something that can be 

696
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,160
distilled down into black and 
white pages, you know, ink, ink 

697
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,520
on a page. 
It is it's only seen through the

698
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,040
the, the continuity of the 
family of God working this stuff

699
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,800
out in the Holy Spirit. 
And that includes the scripture 

700
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,840
is central to that, absolutely 
central to it. 

701
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,960
But if we think that it stands 
alone by itself, it doesn't 

702
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,120
because the Scripture even says 
of itself the letter kills. 

703
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,840
So if we, if we're trying to be 
really biblical about it, the 

704
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,760
Bible itself starts turning the 
gun back on us, you know, if we 

705
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,080
adopt that approach. 
So to me again, this is this is 

706
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,080
a hermeneutic problem. 
Just go back to the the early 

707
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,520
church. 
They never read it this way. 

708
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,080
That was not how they were 
approaching it. 

709
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,280
They they were not under any 
illusions that it was not a 

710
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,240
collection of scriptural 
writings that that could just be

711
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:18,680
taken as well. 
God said it. 

712
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,360
I believe that that settles it. 
It's there. 

713
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,080
And again, we see over and over 
again the story happening in the

714
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,200
New Testament is Jesus 
addressing this very problem. 

715
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,440
And that is alarming to us 
because we've come from, again, 

716
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,960
it's a Western thing. 
We have this this idea that 

717
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,320
objectivity is something out 
there that we can get a hold of.

718
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,560
Well, as long as it's 
objectively there in the book, 

719
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,880
at least I can say that's true. 
Maybe I don't understand it, but

720
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,840
it's true and it's there. 
It's this objective thing and 

721
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,520
again, this divorces it from 
relationship. 

722
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,800
This makes it that concepts that
ideas and that has no life in 

723
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,560
it. 
And actually a lot of that's 

724
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,560
about fear and control. 
When the Bible itself also says 

725
00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:59,720
the one who thinks he knows 
something doesn't yet know as he

726
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:02,000
ought to know. 
Well, what the heck am I 

727
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,920
supposed to do with that? 
I thought the Bible's supposed 

728
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,600
to give me the answers to the 
questions. 

729
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,040
Well, if I've got an answer to 
the question and then I read the

730
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,400
next page and tells me if you 
think you've got the answer, 

731
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,200
that's the very moment you don't
have the answer. 

732
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:15,680
Well, OK, I'm screwed then. 
You've just sunk my battleship. 

733
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,640
You've drilled a hole in the 
hull, put me to the bottom of 

734
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,560
the Sea of Galilee. 
What am I supposed to do with 

735
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,360
that? 
Of course it's supposed. 

736
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,440
It defies the shallow 
certainties. 

737
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,480
I think a lot of the 
conversation in the the kind of 

738
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,840
universal space is frankly is 
just very shallow. 

739
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,520
I think that they're a they're a
really solid and disturbing in 

740
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,560
many ways takes on this 
disturbing in that it will it 

741
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,120
cannot leave you complacent 
stuff that really upsets the 

742
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:47,320
apple cart from some 
astonishingly gifted voices in 

743
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,520
in George MacDonald being one of
them. 

744
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,920
So I would say in terms of 
getting into the broader 

745
00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:00,120
conversation around the what our
eschatology is, where do we see 

746
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,360
all of this headed? 
I think the best way to do that 

747
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,200
is it's a it's a really 
important question. 

748
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,760
It's a great one to be hanging 
on to, but it's very easy to 

749
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,800
just say, well, we've got an 
answer to that and we put that 

750
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,720
answer over there. 
I don't want that to happen. 

751
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,400
It needs to be get into the fire
with Jesus. 

752
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,600
What does it start to do to you 
when you begin to see the nature

753
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,880
of how things really are? 
How does that begin to transform

754
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,440
the way you behave? 
How does it transform the way 

755
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,240
you see people? 
How does it transform what you 

756
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:29,680
pray for, how you treat them? 
And what what judgement is that 

757
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,720
landing at your door right now? 
Not what's happening to so and 

758
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:35,280
so down there. 
So what's happening to you in 

759
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,880
the fire of this message? 
That is like going back to 

760
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,440
Hugh's point from the beginning 
says actually whoever wants to 

761
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,400
save his life will lose it. 
So there's there's something 

762
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,200
quite extreme in all of this 
that is taking place. 

763
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,520
So. 
So I think again, a long answer 

764
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,720
to a direct question and people 
are trying to jump in. 

765
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:56,720
I see lots of lots of people 
trying to jump in. 

766
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:02,480
So let me, I I said Sam, Hugh 
and Malcolm all wanted to say 

767
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,680
something. 
As I said, oh, OK, OK. 

768
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:13,440
I try and wants to come back. 
Yeah, No, it's not on. 

769
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,560
I'll answer shorter for the 
next. 

770
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,760
Paul Young would tell me off. 
He'd say we don't answer, we 

771
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,280
respond. 
Sorry, Paul, if you're 

772
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,600
listening. 
Thanks. 

773
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,880
So you mentioned about origin, 
yeah. 

774
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:36,000
Could you just just describe 
briefly one of his impact on 

775
00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:37,800
early church and who he was in 
relation to? 

776
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,120
Different yeah. 
Origin of Alexandria, also known

777
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:48,480
as origin Adamantius, the Iron 
Man because he was so strong in 

778
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,720
his debating ability against 
the, you know, the heretics, 

779
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,720
right. 
So origin he his main 

780
00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:58,080
contributions are hermeneutical 
method. 

781
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,800
So understanding how to read the
scripture. 

782
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,320
So he would he would effectively
I'm again, I'm really 

783
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,040
oversimplifying this, but and 
maybe in another sense, I'm not 

784
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,320
oversimplifying it. 
The point of the scripture is to

785
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,320
reveal Jesus. 
If it's not revealing Jesus to 

786
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,600
you, you're reading it wrong and
you're projecting your own 

787
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,800
dysfunction into it. 
So that would be 1 and the other

788
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:23,080
would be beginning to put down a
a coherent mystical Christian 

789
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,520
mysticism, you know, as a 
framework amongst a whole bunch 

790
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,280
of other things. 
But a lot of what we have the 

791
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,600
most significant stuff that he 
wrote, we don't have it doesn't 

792
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:36,040
survive, but he his extensive 
commentaries on the 1st 6 books 

793
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:41,800
of Genesis are referred to and 
are are seen really as being 

794
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,280
amongst the most influential in 
I think origin was second 

795
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,520
century, middle 2nd century or 
late 2nd century, if I recall. 

796
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,320
So he's, he's quite early, but 
he he has an extraordinarily 

797
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,760
outsized influence on the the 
formation of early Christian 

798
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,680
thought. 
And any good books too? 

799
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,080
So you can get his book on 1st 
principles, which is quite, you 

800
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,640
can get that online for free in 
translation. 

801
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,960
Translation is pretty good. 
It's reasonably easy to follow. 

802
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,360
Some of these ones can be 
difficult to follow, but that's 

803
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,080
quite a good one. 
And that goes through 

804
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,240
effectively. 
It's his. 

805
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,920
You'll see his Christological 
method is in the first section 

806
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,120
and then in the later section he
goes into what he calls 

807
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,040
speculation, which is where he 
starts talking about eschatology

808
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,520
and the relationship between 
angels and demons and all these 

809
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:29,840
other kind of things is in 
there. 

810
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,440
But he's careful to flag that as
as a speculation rather than 

811
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,200
doctrine and. 
Just quickly did he did he fall 

812
00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:39,400
out of grace with with kind of 
modern theologians? 

813
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,120
What was he? 
He fell out of grace several 100

814
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:48,480
years later in there were so 
again is in the successive 

815
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,360
councils over the hundreds of 
years, particularly following 

816
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,240
Nicaea, you get these 
increasingly nitpicky, in my 

817
00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:59,000
opinion, increasingly nitpicky 
anathematizations of people. 

818
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,720
You know, the, the church begins
to get it, it, it's, it starts 

819
00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:07,400
narrowing and it gets political 
and you have these anathemas 

820
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,600
that are issued against the 
originists hundreds of years 

821
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,760
later. 
But it's interesting the, the 

822
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:22,480
that's usually held up as an 
example of how the church in I 

823
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:27,600
forget which council it was, 
they anathematize that they 

824
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,440
declared heresy. 
The idea that everybody would be

825
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,320
saved is called apocotasasis in 
the New Testament, the the 

826
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,080
restoration of all things into 
Christ apocotasis. 

827
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:42,480
But particularly it's, it's not,
if you actually look at what 

828
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,880
they say, the thing that they're
condemning is a kind of a form 

829
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,960
of pantheism where it says 
everything is God and God is in 

830
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,000
pieces and God is being brought 
back together. 

831
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:53,920
So, and that's not what origin 
teaches. 

832
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:55,800
You go and read origin. 
He doesn't say anything of the 

833
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,080
sort. 
So whatever they're critiquing 

834
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,040
is not the origin that we know 
of or have any record of. 

835
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,480
So, but in the hundreds of years
in the intermediate space, lots 

836
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,680
of stuffs going on and and 
politics are in in the mix as 

837
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,280
well. 
So yeah, it's the the early 

838
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,440
church is by no means a, a nice 
convenient way to to just kind 

839
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:18,920
of claim something. 
I mean, in the sense you can, 

840
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,080
you can get into the fathers and
find almost anything if you look

841
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:23,880
hard enough. 
A little bit like the Bible, but

842
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,680
perhaps even worse. 
Yeah. 

843
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:36,490
Thanks. 
One of the things that's been, I

844
00:47:36,490 --> 00:47:40,520
guess not weighing on me, but 
just I guess recurring for me 

845
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,360
over the last few months of 
doing this is kind of where, 

846
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:48,480
where kind of spiritual warfare 
fits from. 

847
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:53,760
You know, there's a there's AI 
guess we we're talking about 

848
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,400
Christ being in all, all 
creatures, all of the created 

849
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,960
and that he's the first thing 
everything is created 

850
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,520
thereafter, which we've touched 
on loads of times. 

851
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:10,480
So that that's there's a lot of 
creatures beyond the physical 

852
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,480
realm, you know, of, of many 
different types of which we 

853
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,160
don't have a a lot of scripture 
about. 

854
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,920
But there's there's there's 
certainly a reference enough 

855
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,800
that we can agree there's a 
there's a pretty significant 

856
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:26,440
spiritual realm of which and 
there are fairly well documented

857
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:33,600
kind of fallen creatures of 
various descriptions from the 

858
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:38,280
watchers of of Genesis pre flood
through to, you know. 

859
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,400
The watches of First Enoch. 
Yeah. 

860
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,440
But well, all of all of, I mean 
they can be referred of 

861
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,560
referring to of those times pre 
Noah kind of flood times. 

862
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,600
And then you've got whether 
that's through Babel and 

863
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:59,000
through, you know, right through
all of history outside of it. 

864
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:09,520
We've got lots of groups that 
are worshipping, worshipping the

865
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:14,160
spiritual realm, which which 
seems pretty demonic. 

866
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:18,360
Where does that kind of fit 
where, where does it? 

867
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,920
It feels like that's something 
that's a part of history that 

868
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,080
with regardless of where we look
at the Bible, we just look at 

869
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,840
look at history, look at look at
the towers and monuments through

870
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,880
history that have built 
worshipping all sorts of whether

871
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:37,520
that's RAR or whatever else. 
There's something going on with 

872
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,920
that in the spiritual realm, 
influencing thought of people to

873
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:48,120
worship stuff that feels pretty 
satanic, pretty demonic of all 

874
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:53,040
in, in different with different 
masks on where, where does that 

875
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,200
fit into our kind of we talk 
about things like universalism. 

876
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:57,760
Where does that fit into? 
Where's Where's? 

877
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,800
Well now, well, now, well now 
you're doing what Origin did, 

878
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,240
which is get the Christological 
foundation in. 

879
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:05,800
And then he says, OK, now we've 
got to speculate. 

880
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,000
So that's exactly what he did. 
And many others have done the 

881
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,320
same thing, which is all right. 
Now, how do we, how do we 

882
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,640
navigate the fact that we've got
this invisible spiritual world? 

883
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,640
How do we process it? 
How do we fit it into a 

884
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,600
cosmology? 
I think it's conspicuous. 

885
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,640
The New Testament doesn't 
actually give us a cosmology of 

886
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,480
these things. 
It assumes some to a degree. 

887
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,360
You have this conversation about
that. 

888
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,720
He's come to destroy the 
elemental powers and it talks 

889
00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:34,440
about him disarming the Archons,
the the powers and 

890
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,240
principalities and the the 
Archons of the the is an idea of

891
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,200
these powerful spiritual beings 
that are responsible. 

892
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,720
They they govern sort of 
different levels of reality. 

893
00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:47,960
And you get these various levels
of complexity in the 

894
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,800
demonologies and angelologies of
the particularly the 2nd 3rd 

895
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,880
century BC rabbinic mysticism, 
which is where first Enoch comes

896
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,760
from. 
So I said the conversation about

897
00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,960
the watchers. 
But anyway, apologies for those 

898
00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:02,000
of you who are complete. 
We're completely off piece here 

899
00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:06,480
in first Enoch. 
It's a book that's quoted 

900
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:07,920
multiple times in the New 
Testament. 

901
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,200
It's a book that is riffing off 
of Genesis 6. 

902
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,120
This idea of why did the flood 
happen and So what? 

903
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,280
I would just put it into the 
you, you have all kinds of 

904
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,840
different opinions on this from 
all sorts of different people. 

905
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,040
The New Testament takes a really
minimalist approach on it. 

906
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,560
You have no named demonic powers
in the New Testament. 

907
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,720
They're just unclean spirits. 
And there's no attempt to 

908
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:35,080
formulate any kind of systematic
hierarchy of demons or powers or

909
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,200
anything. 
You have Hebrews one says, 

910
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:40,920
what's man? 
That you're mindful of him, the 

911
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,120
Son of man, that you even think 
of him for you made him a little

912
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,040
while lower than God or lower 
than the Elohim, lower than the 

913
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,560
angelic beings. 
You have crowned him with glory 

914
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,000
and compassion and have sat all 
things under his feet. 

915
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,720
And then it says, yet we do not 
see all things under the feet of

916
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:58,160
man. 
So Hebrews 1 poses this 

917
00:51:58,160 --> 00:51:59,800
question. 
There's this part of the Bible, 

918
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:02,600
it's starting there, part of the
Bible that says there's this 

919
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,200
whole complex world of powers 
and all these things, and you've

920
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,400
created man and you've crowned 
man with glory and compassion, 

921
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,240
and you've set him above all of 
these things. 

922
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,640
But actually we don't see that. 
We're oppressed by demonic 

923
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:17,600
powers left, right and centre. 
We're oppressed by political 

924
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,560
powers. 
We've got disease, we've got 

925
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,280
disaster. 
We've got all this stuff that's 

926
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,880
happening, right. 
It's the problem of evil. 

927
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,280
Yeah, precisely. 
It's the problem of evil. 

928
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:28,800
And so the right of Hebrews 
acknowledges the question and 

929
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:30,960
then gives an answer which you 
might find extraordinarily 

930
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:32,440
frustrating. 
It's probably supposed to 

931
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,600
frustrate you because the writer
says, yeah, we don't see that. 

932
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,760
We don't see man above 
everything, he says. 

933
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:46,800
But we do see the man, the son, 
who for a short time took on a 

934
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,320
name that was a little lower 
than that angelic, but now has 

935
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,640
ascended to inherit a name that 
is higher than them all. 

936
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,080
And we see all things under his 
feet because he is the one to 

937
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,320
whom the Father said, Sit at my 
right hand until I make your 

938
00:52:58,320 --> 00:52:59,600
enemies a footstool for your 
feet. 

939
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,920
And then you plug that back into
Ephesians where Paul says, and 

940
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,720
God raised us up in Christ and 
seated us in him in the heavenly

941
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:09,160
places far above all rule and 
authority, power and 

942
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:10,720
principality in every name that 
can be named. 

943
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,800
So the New Testaments 
articulation of this is like, 

944
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,120
look, however many powers, God's
beings or anything that there 

945
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:21,880
may be, whatever probably you 
might be having with them. 

946
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,400
I'm going to remind you of the 
only thing that matters, which 

947
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,760
is crisis already ascended, 
disarmed, disempowered, all of 

948
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:31,400
that stuff sat up on the throne 
of the universe and you have 

949
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,400
been put into him and sat on 
that throne as well. 

950
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,200
Go stick that in your pipe and 
smoke it like that's that's the 

951
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,480
New Testament's answer. 
Deal, deal with that. 

952
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,720
Like what we get in the a lot of
the spiritual warfare 

953
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:46,000
conversation kind of invites us 
to come down to the level of 

954
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,080
phenomena. 
Well, how do I deal with this 

955
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:49,480
thing? 
How do I unseat this demon? 

956
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,000
How do I cast this thing out? 
The New Testament, it's really 

957
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:53,360
conspicuous. 
It's not there. 

958
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,400
None of that stuff is there in 
the in the Apostolic writings at

959
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,600
all. 
There's never you, you get them 

960
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,480
saying angels long to look into 
these things that you're you get

961
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,280
to, you get to understand like 
they're they're watching and 

962
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,720
marvelling with the gospel that 
you get to dine out on. 

963
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:15,080
So again, take your pick. 
You can find anyone who's 

964
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:18,880
attempted to create some sort of
angelology, demonology, 

965
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,320
cosmological system on this has 
come up with a different one, 

966
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:22,880
and they all have their own 
angle on it. 

967
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,400
The popular thing at the moment 
is to make it all about aliens 

968
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,840
because that fits the mythology 
of our current time. 

969
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,920
So people would draw from these 
mythological accounts to try and

970
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,600
make sense of experiences. 
And I think there are 

971
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,480
experiences, there are 
experiences of spiritual 

972
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,520
phenomena. 
Things behave as if they have a 

973
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:45,280
personality, like money. 
Jesus calls money mammon. 

974
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,840
He gives it a name and it 
behaves as a, it behaves like a 

975
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:49,240
person. 
It's not a person, but it 

976
00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:50,800
behaves like it has a mind of 
its own. 

977
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,720
So there are these disembodied, 
you know, psychic, 

978
00:54:53,720 --> 00:54:56,320
transpersonal, malevolent 
entities that are around there. 

979
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,120
How do we deal with them? 
Contemplation of Christ, right? 

980
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:01,560
We see Jesus. 
It's like turn your attention 

981
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:03,240
right back there. 
Where are you seated? 

982
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:05,920
What has he done? 
From that fountainhead flows all

983
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:11,080
life and for me that life 
flushes all the turds down the 

984
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,480
drain, whatever shape or colour 
or variety of turd they might 

985
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:19,400
happen to be. 
So to me it's simple and I had 

986
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,000
an experience. 
I talk about it in my book was 

987
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,520
in in Taipei a few years ago 
with Grace, Taipei City in 

988
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,880
Taiwan. 
And we went to the, the Dragon 

989
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:35,640
Mountain Temple, which is a very
active temple in central Taiwan.

990
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:38,960
When you go in, if you want, you
can take a little number to 

991
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:42,480
there's like a ticket tape like 
in the supermarket to go to the 

992
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:44,080
deli counter. 
And you're not taking a number 

993
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,560
to go to the deli counter. 
You're taking a number to go and

994
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:48,880
see the medium, you know, the 
resident medium who's in, in the

995
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,440
temple if you want your fortune 
told, right, Very, very active 

996
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:54,440
temple. 
And so we're just wandering 

997
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:55,600
around and I'm showing Grace 
around. 

998
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,040
She's never been in a in a any 
kind of place like this, right. 

999
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:02,120
And so anyway, and then we were 
walking around and at a certain 

1000
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:03,920
point I'm standing there and 
there's a woman and she's 

1001
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,640
lighting incense and she's 
kowtowing to the the the the 

1002
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,680
deity, the idol that's, that's 
in the temple. 

1003
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,000
And I'm there and I just start 
asking the question. 

1004
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:16,240
So Jesus, you are everywhere. 
Where are you here and what are 

1005
00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:17,560
you doing? 
Yeah. 

1006
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,600
So I just, that's my question. 
So I just begin So and I'm, I'm 

1007
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:22,000
listening and I'm watching. 
What is it? 

1008
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:25,240
You're drawing my attention to 
Holy Spirit, and I can see this 

1009
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,520
golden statue over there that's 
lifeless and inert, can do 

1010
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:30,880
nothing. 
Maybe, maybe it's nicely 

1011
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:32,480
created. 
Maybe it's, well, it's pretty 

1012
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:36,000
well it's nothing. 
It's a piece of inner matter. 

1013
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:39,400
And then I see over here the 
woman who's lighting the incense

1014
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,440
and praying to this thing. 
And as I'm looking at her, the 

1015
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,520
thoughts going through my mind, 
there's only three reasons why a

1016
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,360
person comes to a temple like 
this and lights incense and 

1017
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:48,560
prays the way that she's 
praying. 

1018
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:53,360
So reason #1 she or a member of 
her family are very sick and she

1019
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:57,800
wants healing. 
Reason #2 the, the children have

1020
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:59,880
some problem and she's worried 
about them. 

1021
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,400
Maybe it's to do with exams. 
A lot of it's about that they go

1022
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:05,880
because they want success in the
exams and they're worried, you 

1023
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:09,800
know, that it's not going to go 
well or #3 they're starting a 

1024
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,840
business and they need to know 
if it's the the right time. 

1025
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:16,520
So these kind of very real and 
human, human things, right? 

1026
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,080
And also you're supposed to go 
once every 12 years for 

1027
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,320
astrological reasons. 
So it might have been for that, 

1028
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,280
but that's unlikely. 
It's probably one of those three

1029
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:25,880
things. 
And as I'm standing there 

1030
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,600
watching her, I was thinking 
that here, here you have 

1031
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,360
whatever's going on for her. 
And she represents one of 

1032
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,120
millions of people who's doing 
something virtually identical to

1033
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,280
this in temples all over the, 
the, particularly the, the, the 

1034
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:42,960
Eastern world. 
And she's here because something

1035
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,680
or someone she cares about is in
trouble and she can't help them.

1036
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:50,440
She hasn't got an answer. 
She's there's some desperation 

1037
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,560
and the only thing she knows to 
do, because the only thing she's

1038
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,160
inherited is you go there and 
you lie into this. 

1039
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,400
And they're hoping that there's 
some kind of answer is going to 

1040
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,600
be there, right. 
So now what I'm saying I'm 

1041
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,480
actually what's happening is I'm
the veil is beginning to draw 

1042
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,800
back and I'm actually seeing her
as she is. 

1043
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:12,800
I'm not seeing, I'm not just 
seeing a person. 

1044
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:14,760
I'm not seeing a, an idea or a 
concept. 

1045
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,080
I'm seeing a real person in a 
real place at a real moment. 

1046
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,280
And as I'm seeing at a bang, 
there's the flow of compassion. 

1047
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:22,600
Like, wow, the Holy Spirit. 
And I got so drunk in the 

1048
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,480
Spirit, I was whacked in the 
Holy Spirit. 

1049
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,360
And I was like, and I went and 
found grace. 

1050
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:30,800
I said, did you just feel that? 
And she said, yeah, I just felt 

1051
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:32,520
it said bang. 
It's like suddenly the manifest 

1052
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,000
presence of God. 
And I said to her, it would be 

1053
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:36,600
so easy to start ministering in 
here. 

1054
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,000
I said, you want to work, You 
want to flow in Word of 

1055
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:40,240
knowledge, you want to flow in 
healing. 

1056
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:42,360
It would be dead easy in here. 
Right now. 

1057
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,160
What you've got is a room, a 
temple full of people hungering 

1058
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,760
and thirsting for righteousness.
And the Bible says blessed them,

1059
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:49,560
they'll be filled. 
Of course, if we started doing 

1060
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:51,120
that, we would have a riot very 
quickly. 

1061
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:52,560
The same thing that happened in 
the New Testament. 

1062
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,200
The riot would happen because it
would be so disturbing to the 

1063
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,640
status quo. 
It would just be, it would be a 

1064
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,800
crazy upheaval. 
So I said to, you know, if we 

1065
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,120
ever moved to Taiwan, maybe I 
should volunteer as a medium in 

1066
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:06,360
the temple because it would be 
they're just volunteers. 

1067
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:07,880
You know, anybody can volunteer,
right? 

1068
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,560
Well, maybe I should volunteer 
and I can just like Jesusify 

1069
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:13,760
everybody who comes in. 
And I was think, think of the 

1070
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,720
publicity. 
No, no point in history has a 

1071
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,200
white guy who speaks Chinese sat
in any of these things and done 

1072
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:22,120
this. 
And they're doing it like in the

1073
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:23,800
name of Jesus. 
And people are getting whacked 

1074
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,440
with this kind of flow of grace.
I thought I could see in that 

1075
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:30,000
space, I could see how ethicists
got turned into a war zone by 

1076
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,040
the Apostle Paul being there a 
couple of days and behaving that

1077
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:35,760
way. 
Now the Taiwanese church won't 

1078
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:37,560
touch it with a barge pole. 
You can't go in there. 

1079
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:39,960
There are demons. 
In fact, we were in Turkey on a 

1080
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:42,440
mission trip and we're talking 
with friends of ours who are, 

1081
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:46,080
who are from the Turkish church.
They'd been out to Taiwan. 

1082
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,960
And good friend Ihan, you know, 
he says, Oh, well, you know, 

1083
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,240
gosh, he said, man, the temples 
are so demonic. 

1084
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,320
He said, we even got near them 
and I started getting dizzy and 

1085
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:56,960
I started getting spun out and 
all these things. 

1086
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:58,840
I was just like this oppressive 
feeling. 

1087
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,720
And he said, it's not like here.
He said here in in Turkey, if 

1088
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:03,640
people come and they want to 
visit a mosque, we'll take them 

1089
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:04,920
to the mosque. 
It's no problem. 

1090
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:06,520
You know, we can we'll show them
around. 

1091
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,320
It's not like that at all. 
So he tells me, and I'm 

1092
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:11,960
thinking, Holy Spirit, I need a 
word of wisdom, which is like 

1093
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:13,480
one of my most common prayers, 
right? 

1094
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:14,960
Word of wisdom. 
How do I answer that? 

1095
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:17,680
So I told him that story. 
This is let me tell you what I 

1096
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:18,600
experienced. 
I had. 

1097
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:21,560
I said, well, this is what 
happened to me when I was in the

1098
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:25,600
Dragon Spring Temple, which is 
like, it's a heavy duty temple, 

1099
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,920
it's not a museum. 
And I said, and he was like, oh,

1100
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:31,760
he was obviously challenged by 
the concept. 

1101
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,440
And he said, well, you know, I 
do. 

1102
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:36,280
I find that I find that really 
difficult. 

1103
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:38,640
You know, OK, you know, I've got
to, I've got to think about it. 

1104
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:40,960
And I said to him, here's the 
deal I had. 

1105
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,760
I said if I had to stay out of 
any building that was full of 

1106
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,920
demons, that would exclude 99% 
of churches. 

1107
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:52,840
And he sort of stopped. 
He goes and then he laughed. 

1108
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:54,520
He goes, Oh yeah, he goes, oh, 
but it's not the same. 

1109
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:56,680
It's not the same. 
I said, I, I know, I know it's 

1110
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:58,200
not exactly the same. 
I'm being a bit naughty, I said,

1111
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:00,840
but on the, on the other side, 
why is it not the same? 

1112
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:06,400
Like people are people. 
And if we can recognise Christ 

1113
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,160
everywhere, then what we're 
going to be able to see is going

1114
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:13,120
to be different. 
What we, how we frame, what 

1115
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,800
we're able to see, we'll change 
everything about the way we 

1116
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:18,680
interact with it. 
And I think This is why the New 

1117
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:21,240
Testament does not present a 
systematic demonology. 

1118
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,680
It will tell you how do you deal
with this demon or that demon or

1119
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:27,160
all these other kind of things, 
because that actually just 

1120
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:31,240
simply re empowers and re 
engages and agrees again with 

1121
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:33,400
the very things that Jesus has 
come to dissolve and undo. 

1122
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:34,960
And I don't even know what they 
are. 

1123
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:39,880
And I had a week long, literally
a week long debate whilst 

1124
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:43,040
travelling with Baxter and John 
Crowder on this very subject. 

1125
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,480
Because, you know, I'm saying, 
well, are we, what are we 

1126
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:50,760
dealing with, you know, personal
entities that are created good 

1127
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:54,840
that have then become bad? 
Or are we dealing with kind of 

1128
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:58,040
a, a corporate psychic 
manifestation that has a human 

1129
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,440
origin that ultimately is like a
shadow. 

1130
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,280
And when the lights turn on, it 
just disappears because if it's 

1131
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:07,400
a thing that has its origin in 
Christ, it also is included in 

1132
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:09,240
Christ. 
It is not a thing. 

1133
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,760
It's a shadow. 
Then it's then when the light 

1134
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:15,360
comes on, it disappears because 
it's not a thing, right. 

1135
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:19,040
And I don't know the answer to 
that question, but I know that 

1136
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:22,360
we can just listen to the Holy 
Spirit and pray. 

1137
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:25,800
And again, Athanasius, if you, 
if you read on the incarnation 

1138
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:27,840
in that book, he talks about it,
right? 

1139
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:29,880
He says it's one of his 
apologetics. 

1140
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:32,840
He's done his whole, you know, 
reason, OK, This is why we 

1141
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:33,680
believe. 
And he's like, look. 

1142
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:36,520
And at the end of the day, if 
you still don't like what I'm 

1143
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:40,280
saying, why is it that whenever 
we make the sign of the cross, 

1144
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:42,800
anyone who's demonised just gets
set free? 

1145
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:44,680
And if there are any river 
spirits, he said. 

1146
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:47,360
I think it's funny, he says that
if there are any river spirits, 

1147
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:50,080
they get sent off. 
And if there's anybody dead, 

1148
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,160
they just come back to life. 
Why is it we just make the sign 

1149
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:55,240
of the cross and that happens? 
You know, evidently this guy is 

1150
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,040
tracking with something that 
like we're not tracking with 

1151
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,360
right. 
And and then his his final 

1152
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:04,240
conclusion on that is, and if 
none of that persuades you, the 

1153
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:06,440
bottom line is none of our 
people are afraid of death. 

1154
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:09,680
And that's the most unnatural 
thing you can imagine. 

1155
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,320
So that how can they possibly be
not afraid of death if Jesus 

1156
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:15,440
hasn't risen from the dead? 
This is his final argument. 

1157
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:17,160
You know, in the book why you 
should be a Christian. 

1158
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:19,960
You know, he, he starts with a 
philosophical theological bit 

1159
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:21,840
and then he gets into and yeah, 
we just make the sign of the 

1160
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:22,760
cross. 
And why? 

1161
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,840
How could the cross possibly be 
so powerful to basically solve 

1162
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,640
any problem when we do it? 
You know, maybe he's been a bit 

1163
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:30,880
hyperbolic, but you get the 
sense that he's seeing stuff 

1164
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:33,720
going on all the time. 
And then he tracks into and none

1165
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:35,720
of our people are afraid of 
death or martyrdom or anything 

1166
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:37,040
else. 
They're invincible. 

1167
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,960
Yeah, it's for the recording. 
For the recording. 

1168
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,800
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1169
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,760
Well, anyway, so I guess I guess
it's like a sorry, yeah, yeah, 

1170
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:12,040
I'll pass it. 
I just wanted to close that one 

1171
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:14,800
off. 
But I think, you know, I, I 

1172
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,600
spent a long time in the, the 
deep end of the prophetic 

1173
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:21,920
spiritual warfare kind of world 
for, for years and the inner 

1174
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,600
healing and the deliverance 
world, You know, I mean, I 

1175
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:27,720
remember being 3:00 in the 
morning and my friend's caravan 

1176
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:30,280
is 16 years old, having him 
vomit ectoplasm up into a 

1177
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:35,240
bucket, you know, for hours. 
That was like a fun Friday night

1178
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:38,800
for us, right? 
So I think there's a better way 

1179
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:42,320
actually. 
And more to the point, let's get

1180
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:45,320
the gospel straight. 
Let's get the vision of Christ 

1181
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,000
straight. 
Then we just ask him what to do 

1182
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:49,560
when when we come up against 
things. 

1183
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:52,560
As far as the eschatology goes, 
again, if you really want to get

1184
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:57,920
into that subject, George 
MacDonald #1 The Unspoken Sermon

1185
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,360
is also his book Lilith, which 
is actually his. 

1186
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:07,320
He he even really explores this 
question of Satan, like what 

1187
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:11,080
happens to Satan at the 
eschatological horizon. 

1188
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,320
I find George MacDonald 
completely unimpeachable in his 

1189
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,800
in his theology, extraordinarily
powerful. 

1190
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:22,280
And David Bentley Hart, if you 
want something that is 

1191
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:26,440
contemporary but pretty heavy 
going in terms of you, you need 

1192
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:29,160
you need to listen or read 
slowly. 

1193
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,800
And he uses a lot of 
philosophical terms, but again, 

1194
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:35,320
unimpeachable from a theological
point of view. 

1195
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,960
So I would I recommend them if 
you if it's if it's a subject 

1196
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:40,600
that you you kind of want to 
dive into. 

1197
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:43,480
But otherwise, you know, I mean,
I'm with my friend Bruce Walkup 

1198
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:46,200
from Australia. 
I quite like the way he does 

1199
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:49,840
things, you know, and he, he's 
very been in that very sort of 

1200
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,720
mystical, you know, prophetic 
space his whole life and 

1201
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,760
ministry. 
And he, he, he's a tropical 

1202
01:05:55,760 --> 01:06:00,800
disease medicine specialist was 
going into the, he's been going 

1203
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:03,160
to war zones and all these kind 
of things, really crazy. 

1204
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,800
It's got a lot of crazy 
experiences of demonic this and 

1205
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:07,440
that and the other. 
Whenever he does a meeting, he 

1206
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:10,640
prays and he invites the powers 
and principalities to believe in

1207
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:12,360
Christ. 
I mean, he basically evangelises

1208
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:13,800
the air, right as part of his 
prayer. 

1209
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:16,040
I kind of like that. 
I'm like, yeah, I'm cool. 

1210
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:18,160
I'm cool with that, Bruce. 
That's a nice way to do it. 

1211
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:21,120
Right. 
So it's an it's an invitation. 

1212
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,600
It actually the Bible says 
preach the gospel to every 

1213
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:25,240
creature. 
If there's a creature, it should

1214
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:30,200
have the gospel preach to it. 
Jane. 

1215
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:33,120
And then Sam and Hugh in the 
queue as well. 

1216
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:42,640
But please. 
Yeah. 

1217
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:50,600
Just flick the button up. 
OK, because it's a bit 

1218
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:52,520
confusing, so I don't really 
want to anyway. 

1219
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:59,760
But so you said keep going back 
to the fire, the fire of God. 

1220
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:02,800
Yeah, fine. 
And my experience is, so this is

1221
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:08,160
a personal thing. 
I've really grasped the 

1222
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:13,000
theology. 
No, that's not true, but it's 

1223
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:16,320
grafted to me now. 
I now I kind of see it and I've 

1224
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:20,080
seen it in action. 
I really have seen it in action.

1225
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:25,280
Just a bit of a testimony, you 
know, I go to a Truckers cafe. 

1226
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:32,840
This guy, you know, I see him. 
He's he's not a Christian. 

1227
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:38,360
He calls himself an whatever, 
you know. 

1228
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:47,080
Yeah, like a in the woods, you 
know, a a Pagan Pagan. 

1229
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:48,840
So we, we had a great 
conversation. 

1230
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:54,200
But I saw Jesus, God in him 
because he takes care of widows.

1231
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:58,000
Isn't that interesting? 
I'm a widow and he takes care of

1232
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:02,560
very difficult widows. 
And he, he's got a wife and 

1233
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:03,880
she's a widow and blah, blah, 
blah. 

1234
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:08,520
And I just like you are Christ 
in the flesh. 

1235
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:10,240
Yeah, you. 
You really are. 

1236
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:13,720
Of course, I didn't say that to 
him, but we're having a she's 

1237
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:18,560
really exciting. 
So exciting because it. 

1238
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:20,880
Well, I know, but it's so 
exciting. 

1239
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:27,680
However, I feel this is just a 
personal feeling thing. 

1240
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:32,040
It's not, you know, I kind of 
now can just go and the bits I 

1241
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,520
was reading John and there's 
bits that contradict and I 

1242
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:36,040
think, oh, I'll stuff it. 
I don't care. 

1243
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:38,120
You know, I can really cope with
that. 

1244
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:43,359
Now that doesn't speak of that 
is not Speaking of God. 

1245
01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:46,479
Therefore there must be a 
problem, but I'm not worried. 

1246
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:51,680
So that is really hard. 
But I really, this is the bit 

1247
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:59,160
that instead of love, I find 
myself flipping jealous, angry, 

1248
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:05,200
upset. 
What's the bloody point? 

1249
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:14,319
Sorry, I really do. 
I feel, I feel the I feel the 

1250
01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:19,479
uselessness of church. 
I feel the pointlessness, the 

1251
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:23,479
what are we doing feeling? 
I feel all this feeling 

1252
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,840
feelings, you know, you know, 
like, you know, like for years 

1253
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:32,560
believe in this rubbish about 
the Father and all your 

1254
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:36,600
experiences tie into that 
rubbish. 

1255
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:41,720
And I think of all those people 
that have had Christianity, 

1256
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:45,319
judgement, Christianity thrown 
on them. 

1257
01:09:45,359 --> 01:09:54,520
And I just, I just feel this 
lost piece of oh, God, what now?

1258
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:56,920
What now? 
I feel what now? 

1259
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:05,000
And yeah. 
Thanks for sharing that, Jane. 

1260
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:12,440
So some years ago this this is 
maybe it's easier if I speak to 

1261
01:10:12,440 --> 01:10:15,520
my own story rather rather than 
to yours like at this point. 

1262
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:18,560
And obviously we can continue to
talk and pray and all the rest. 

1263
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:25,640
But I at a certain point I was 
like, gosh, what on earth was I 

1264
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:30,920
doing for all those years and 
felt a sense of man. 

1265
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:34,760
I made some crazy decisions 
based on some faulty 

1266
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:38,280
assumptions. 
I think that's a natural place 

1267
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:45,040
to come to like the if, if the 
light that you're getting now is

1268
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:47,600
not causing you to ask questions
about where you were before, 

1269
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:50,600
then you're not growing right? 
There's no, where's the 

1270
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:52,120
momentum? 
Like if you've reached the 

1271
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:55,240
pinnacle, then you've got it all
sorted at that point. 

1272
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:58,560
Even this comes up in the, in 
the, in the lecture, in one of 

1273
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,640
the questions in the video this 
week, someone asked us some of 

1274
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:03,720
the not exactly the same, but 
similar. 

1275
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:07,040
And Baxter said, well, I've been
how why is it taking me 65 years

1276
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:09,600
to figure this out? 
You know, and he's like, we'll 

1277
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:11,800
put it another way, isn't it 
incredible that it only took you

1278
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:14,560
65 years to figure this out? 
Imagine how you're gonna feel in

1279
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:17,320
500 years. 
Can I just stop you there? 

1280
01:11:17,440 --> 01:11:20,160
Yeah. 
And that's OK, right? 

1281
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:24,560
I don't know Baxter. 
OK. 

1282
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:48,400
We should put that on the 
recording. 

1283
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:49,240
I don't know why you're doing 
it. 

1284
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:53,960
Everyone's going to think Jane's
saying something horrific, but 

1285
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:55,440
she's not. 
Just for the sake of the 

1286
01:11:55,440 --> 01:12:25,000
recording. 
It's not. 

1287
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,160
It's not OK, but it's also not 
on you. 

1288
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:32,000
So I think that I think that the
point is what we see in the 

1289
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,720
cross is you have already done 
the worst thing that you could 

1290
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:36,600
ever do, which is crucify Jesus,
right? 

1291
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:39,480
Anything you did that was bad 
was not as bad as that. 

1292
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,960
So if you can own the cross, you
can see why Paul can say nothing

1293
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:45,520
can separate us from the love of
God, right? 

1294
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:50,280
So I just dial right, like go 
back to the cross, hang on a 

1295
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:53,560
second. 
So it's a, it's a natural 

1296
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:56,600
response, like when we've, we've
ever mistreated anybody or got 

1297
01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:59,920
something wrong in any way, we 
can only do that when we're not 

1298
01:12:59,920 --> 01:13:01,240
really seeing them for who they 
are. 

1299
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:04,640
We're seeing some facade, you 
know, some 2 dimensional 

1300
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:09,840
invention of the false self. 
Well, Love's transformative when

1301
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:12,400
we're, when we're actually 
immersed in that stream of love 

1302
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:14,600
that radically transforms how we
see everyone. 

1303
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:18,720
This is why I say resolutely, we
see everyone after the spirit, 

1304
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:21,320
not after the flesh, which means
to see them in the spirit, which

1305
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:24,160
means to see them in Christ, 
which is not a pretend thing 

1306
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:26,320
because God doesn't ask us to 
pretend about anything. 

1307
01:13:26,480 --> 01:13:28,080
He asks us to agree with the 
truth. 

1308
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:32,480
So when we do that, suddenly, 
how do we see everybody? 

1309
01:13:32,480 --> 01:13:37,040
And then it's a completely right
and understandable thing that at

1310
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:40,160
a certain point we might wake up
to, oh, hang on a minute. 

1311
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:43,800
That means when I ignored that 
person or when I said that bad 

1312
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:47,840
thing about that person, or when
I did this over there, I, I, I 

1313
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:50,720
skimmed past that very quickly 
in my life and I didn't give it 

1314
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:54,000
a second thought. 
But now in the light of what I'm

1315
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:59,680
saying now I'm horrified by it 
that that's a, that's a good 

1316
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:01,160
sign. 
Like that's not a good place to 

1317
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:04,160
finish, right? 
But that that's a sign of 

1318
01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:05,960
growth. 
That's not a sign of regress. 

1319
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:07,200
That's not a sign of getting 
lost. 

1320
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:11,600
That's a sign that the, the, the
flow of compassion is actually 

1321
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:14,440
the dots are joining up and it's
beginning to make sense. 

1322
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:18,840
Like the whole scheme. 
And now we see why is the coming

1323
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:20,960
of Christ, the breaking of the 
entire world? 

1324
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:24,560
Because if you start to 
extrapolate that out, it's when 

1325
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,760
Jesus says in John, now is the 
crisis, now is the judgement. 

1326
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:31,400
Now the Prince of the world 
stands condemned and I, when I'm

1327
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:33,320
drifted, lifted up, will draw 
all to myself. 

1328
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:37,120
You start to see that judgement 
is happening right now in me 

1329
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:41,960
like I'm Ground Zero of that. 
And in that Ground Zero, all 

1330
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:43,320
those things are happening at 
once. 

1331
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:46,800
The judgement of the world, the 
condemnation of the devil, the 

1332
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:49,880
Prince of the earth, right is in
there in in that scheme. 

1333
01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:53,200
And the lifting up of Christ, 
which draws all to him is all 

1334
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:57,040
happening in it's it's ever 
present and presenting itself in

1335
01:14:57,040 --> 01:14:59,480
US. 
And that's what it feels like a 

1336
01:14:59,480 --> 01:15:02,120
lot of the time. 
It's like, Oh my gosh, what, 

1337
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:05,560
what did we do? 
How do we direct our energies, 

1338
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:09,480
our gifting, our faith to be 
able to do something about this?

1339
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:15,200
And now we start to see, I think
a line between our relative 

1340
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:20,280
relatively comfortable Western, 
you know, existence, some line 

1341
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:23,840
between that and the guys in 
Athanasius this time where he's 

1342
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:27,360
like, even the young girls, 5-6 
years old go happily to the 

1343
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:30,800
lions and sing gloriously to 
Jesus as they get devoured 

1344
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:33,840
because they have this 
invincibility of the, of the 

1345
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:36,760
resurrection life in them. 
And you think, well, that feels 

1346
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:38,320
like 1,000,000 miles away from 
me. 

1347
01:15:38,480 --> 01:15:41,480
But actually when you start to 
track with that stuff, you 

1348
01:15:41,480 --> 01:15:44,360
realise, but it's not a million 
miles because you begin to see 

1349
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:51,040
the, the, if we recognise the 
extent to which we are able to 

1350
01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:55,920
live in and accommodate and 
operate in love and the extent 

1351
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:58,120
to which we're able to recognise
that doesn't come from us, that 

1352
01:15:58,120 --> 01:16:00,160
comes from the person of the 
Spirit within us, right? 

1353
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:02,120
Whoever lives in love lives in 
God and God in them. 

1354
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:05,680
That is the very manifestation 
of the presence of God. 

1355
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:08,400
Now if we don't recognise that, 
we won't know how to identify 

1356
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:09,280
it. 
We just kind of carry on. 

1357
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:10,640
Oh well, maybe that's just me or
whatever. 

1358
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:14,040
When we recognise, oh hang on a 
minute, that is not coming from 

1359
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:15,680
me. 
That is coming from the very 

1360
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:18,760
ground of my being, which is 
also the very ground of the 

1361
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:25,360
whole of creation. 
Now it's OK that that is a that 

1362
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:28,160
is a deep, deep sea. 
That's not a little trickle. 

1363
01:16:28,200 --> 01:16:31,520
And if I begin to yield to that,
and if I yield to that long 

1364
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:33,120
enough, what on earth will that 
do to me? 

1365
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:36,520
To back to Hugh's point again, 
like what begins to happen? 

1366
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:39,840
What, what, what does it feel 
like for the apostle Paul when 

1367
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:42,600
he says I would that I myself 
would cut off from Christ for 

1368
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:44,320
the sake of my brethren, that 
they would know him? 

1369
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:47,320
Like, what drives a man to say 
that, you know, particularly. 

1370
01:16:47,320 --> 01:16:50,280
Yeah, that's that's a disturbing
place to be in, right? 

1371
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:51,880
That's not a complacent 
Christianity. 

1372
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:56,880
That is a radical world 
overturning faith that blasts 

1373
01:16:56,880 --> 01:16:58,960
through absolutely everything. 
That's the kind of thing where 

1374
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:01,440
you can see Jesus saying I'll 
build my church and the gates of

1375
01:17:01,440 --> 01:17:04,240
hell will not prevail against 
it, because this is the church 

1376
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:08,600
that says we cannot sit on a 
cloud with a harp when our 

1377
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:12,240
brothers and sisters are down 
there behind those gates and we 

1378
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:14,680
have to go in. 
And this is George MacDonald. 

1379
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:19,840
So George MacDonald's position 
again, how the, the the ones who

1380
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:22,960
are most like Christ, who have 
become most like Christ in the 

1381
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:27,120
way of their being in that 
heavenly reality are those for 

1382
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:31,920
whom the exclusion of any being 
is the least tolerable. 

1383
01:17:33,440 --> 01:17:35,520
But the one who's become the 
most compassionate and like 

1384
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:39,960
Jesus is the one who cannot even
he, he says who who he talks 

1385
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:41,840
about again, I can't get the 
wedding right. 

1386
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:44,120
It's a Florida Victorian 
English, but you can go and read

1387
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:45,960
it. 
But he says you know to they 

1388
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:50,200
they it talks about them 
forsaking the glory of heaven to

1389
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:54,040
go down and sit with the the 
most wretched Judas of his race,

1390
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:58,520
because that's the same love 
that compelled Christ out of 

1391
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:01,560
heaven right to say that he 
didn't consider equality. 

1392
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:03,680
We got something to be 
maintained made himself nothing 

1393
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:05,600
took on flesh and the been found
in form of a man. 

1394
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:09,120
He came down well, if that if 
that is the manifestation of the

1395
01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:12,560
nature and the character and the
person of God and we are growing

1396
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:17,560
to become like that, then what 
do we do with those who are in 

1397
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:20,600
the dark, those who are in the 
in the prison. 

1398
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:25,160
It compels us to go there and it
compels us to go there over and 

1399
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:27,920
against, especially over and 
against the ways in which we 

1400
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:29,360
weren't compelled to go there 
before. 

1401
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:34,800
It it, it's transformative. 
But within that there's a need 

1402
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:40,600
to remember that that the, the 
absolution of the cross covers 

1403
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:44,640
all of these things. 
So or we can find that we can 

1404
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:47,280
start then measuring ourselves 
against some sort of an 

1405
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:53,360
arbitrary standard. 
I think part of this part of the

1406
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:57,240
healing of the soul that comes 
in the gospel is you're not 

1407
01:18:57,240 --> 01:18:59,320
grading yourself against the 
standard anymore. 

1408
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:02,600
It's not like how well am I 
doing with prayer or this. 

1409
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:06,040
It's actually the the complete 
abrogation of that way of 

1410
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:08,080
thinking altogether. 
So there is no standard. 

1411
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:10,640
It's not the knowledge of good 
and evil anymore. 

1412
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:12,280
How good am I doing? 
How bad am I doing? 

1413
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:14,240
All of that's gone. 
It's dead, it's disappeared. 

1414
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:16,240
That's my old life. 
It's disappeared. 

1415
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:18,000
I can recognise it was left in 
the grave. 

1416
01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:20,000
This new creation life that I'm 
in. 

1417
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:24,720
It's OK, I'm I'm, I'm growing. 
I'm growing in my capacity to 

1418
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:29,600
love others and to receive love 
myself and live in that and 

1419
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:33,000
manifest that and walk in it. 
And I will still be growing in 

1420
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:34,680
my capacity to do that in 1000 
years. 

1421
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:39,520
Because it's a limitless ocean. 
There is no bottom to the 

1422
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:43,480
infinite Trinity. 
This that is a bottomless ocean.

1423
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:47,400
So by tracking into that, what 
we're doing is we're embracing 

1424
01:19:47,400 --> 01:19:49,600
the fire. 
I was saying I'm not trying to 

1425
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:51,320
hide from the fire. 
I'm not trying to hide from what

1426
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:54,920
the presence of God does to me 
when I'm because the presence 

1427
01:19:55,120 --> 01:20:00,360
causes me to be unable to ignore
those around me when maybe I 

1428
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:02,440
want to ignore them. 
I'd rather hang out with my 

1429
01:20:02,440 --> 01:20:05,080
demon drinking buddies, right? 
I want to go back and hang out 

1430
01:20:05,080 --> 01:20:07,240
with my demon drinking buddies. 
Call them up, you know, Hey 

1431
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:10,120
Asmodeus from the 7th circle, Do
you want to come around and you 

1432
01:20:10,120 --> 01:20:13,240
know, have a have a cold one and
you know we can. 

1433
01:20:14,440 --> 01:20:17,560
You know, say, and we can hate 
people and we can be embittered 

1434
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:20,120
about them and we can have those
who we don't like, we want to 

1435
01:20:20,120 --> 01:20:22,920
gossip about, you know, or, or 
not think about or say, well, 

1436
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:24,160
it's all their fault. 
They're in that problem. 

1437
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:25,640
What's it got to do with me, 
right? 

1438
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:28,400
Get my demon drinking buddy and 
you know, get him round. 

1439
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:30,080
Like I want to do that 
sometimes, right? 

1440
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:36,840
So we but the presence of God 
doesn't allow us to do that, not

1441
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:39,280
because of any coercion, but 
because the lights show the 

1442
01:20:39,280 --> 01:20:42,400
truth of what already is, 
reveals the truth of who we are.

1443
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:44,640
And that's why the father often 
sounds like that's not really 

1444
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:47,400
you, is it? 
The correction from the father 

1445
01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:48,840
often sounds like that's not 
really you. 

1446
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:50,400
You're right. 
It's not really me. 

1447
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:54,600
Why am I inhabiting it? 
It's kind of silly, childish in 

1448
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:56,400
the wrong way. 
We're going to grow up. 

1449
01:20:57,440 --> 01:21:01,400
And I think again, as an 
editorial on this, one of the 

1450
01:21:01,400 --> 01:21:05,360
reasons I'm so passionate about 
this message is not just because

1451
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:08,240
I believe that it's true, but 
also because having spent many, 

1452
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:10,080
many years going around all 
kinds of churches and seeing 

1453
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:13,120
people who've sat for 20-30 
years in the same Pew or the 

1454
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:15,960
same seat and basically have 
made no spiritual progress 

1455
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:17,560
whatsoever. 
In that time. 

1456
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:19,600
They prayed to prayer, they got 
baptised and they sat down and 

1457
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:21,720
was like, here I am. 
And that's it. 

1458
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:25,440
Like, what's going on? 
And then they've been, they've 

1459
01:21:25,440 --> 01:21:28,720
been mis sold an equation that 
says, well, you got your ticket 

1460
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:33,520
to heaven, so you're all right. 
And then there's nothing else. 

1461
01:21:34,280 --> 01:21:38,840
And so they're bored is lifeless
and there's no danger to it. 

1462
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:43,880
And I think that part of the 
issue is that the theology and 

1463
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:47,640
no part of that, I don't think I
am, I will categorically state a

1464
01:21:47,640 --> 01:21:50,880
big part of the issue is that 
the theological container cannot

1465
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:53,680
take them any further. 
They're stuck because they've 

1466
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:57,480
been told, told some people are 
in, some people are out. 

1467
01:21:57,840 --> 01:21:59,920
So those people you've got a 
problem with, well, they're 

1468
01:21:59,920 --> 01:22:03,400
obviously the out people. 
Well, if you've got that, if 

1469
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:06,120
you've got that in your mind, 
you can't, you can no longer see

1470
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:08,600
them as in, and now they're the 
very people God's inviting you 

1471
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:12,000
to love and growing to kind of 
connectivity and engagement 

1472
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:14,080
with. 
So all of that is just a very 

1473
01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:15,800
Christian thing I think that 
you're describing. 

1474
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:23,320
But I would say, Jane, I need 
you on there. 

1475
01:22:30,120 --> 01:22:32,880
Sin, sin, sin, sin, sin. 
You know, it's and it's just to 

1476
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:39,440
kind of become aware of just how
sick it is as a child, you know,

1477
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:40,880
sin. 
Sick, but but then we can just 

1478
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:42,360
let it go and. 
It. 

1479
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:45,960
Yeah, we're we're at half past, 
but there was I've asked the 

1480
01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:47,800
question. 
Just sorry, quick, quick, 

1481
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:50,000
quickly if you, if you want to 
carry on, I'll carry on. 

1482
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:52,080
Anyone who wants to kind of 
chime in, if they haven't chimed

1483
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:55,360
in already, then you know, I'm 
I'm happy to do that quickly. 

1484
01:22:55,360 --> 01:22:57,720
I mean, again, sorry, Sam and 
Hugh, you guys had your hands up

1485
01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:04,240
like an hour ago. 
But and we we haven't dived into

1486
01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:08,800
all of this stuff, but I'll and 
no one, no one. 

1487
01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:14,680
Malcolm, you looking at me? 
No, I think that we need to have

1488
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:18,800
some grown up conversations like
this about a lot of the stuff. 

1489
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:22,200
My experience of many years in 
the church is this kind of 

1490
01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:24,680
conversation has almost never 
happened. 

1491
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:26,360
There's almost no space for it, 
right? 

1492
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:30,280
And that's also why this is 
important because we have a way 

1493
01:23:30,280 --> 01:23:34,160
to that enables us to talk about
it that doesn't fire off all of 

1494
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:37,640
this unresolvable dissonance. 
Does God really love us or 

1495
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:39,440
doesn't he and all these other 
kind of issues? 

1496
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:45,480
So I am again, back to Charlie's
point, I'm on the record of 

1497
01:23:45,480 --> 01:23:51,960
saying like from a, from the, 
the correct and logical 

1498
01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:54,320
conclusion of what the, the New 
Testament and the Apostolic 

1499
01:23:54,320 --> 01:23:58,280
wince of the church says. 
I think that the only answer 

1500
01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:01,840
that makes sense is we're, we're
all, we're all going to Jesus. 

1501
01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:03,120
So he's going to sort that whole
thing out. 

1502
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:07,320
But I will also readily confess 
I have a problem with that. 

1503
01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:11,600
I have a problem with it because
I cannot imagine how that is 

1504
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:13,840
going to work for person A, 
person B, person C, you know, 

1505
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:17,360
these other kind of issues. 
But that's the crisis on me, 

1506
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:19,320
right? 
So that so rather than saying, 

1507
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:21,320
oh, well, I guess I must be 
wrong because I can't imagine 

1508
01:24:21,320 --> 01:24:25,360
how it would work. 
Instead, it becomes I now have 

1509
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:27,960
to follow the invitation of the 
Spirit, say, or I need to look 

1510
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:30,040
at that. 
I need to see you there, Jesus, 

1511
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:31,920
and you need to show me what you
need to show me. 

1512
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:35,920
I need to grow to be able to 
accommodate that person and I 

1513
01:24:35,920 --> 01:24:37,880
need to participate in that to 
do it. 

1514
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:41,480
Like if I hideaway and don't, 
then I'm not going to grow, but 

1515
01:24:41,480 --> 01:24:42,920
I want to grow and we want to 
grow. 

1516
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:46,000
That's why we're here. 
So we want to be able to expand,

1517
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:50,640
to engage more people, be able 
to embrace more of the world 

1518
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:54,600
than we have been able to. 
So that the that it's not enough

1519
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:57,400
to say that, well, one day in 
the distant horizon it will be 

1520
01:24:57,400 --> 01:24:59,600
OK. 
It becomes not enough to say 

1521
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:01,800
that it says no, it needs to be 
OK right now. 

1522
01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:05,680
So the love of Christ compels 
us, as Paul says, right? 

1523
01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:09,280
So then we have a compulsion and
it's something within us. 

1524
01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:13,440
It's like we have to do this. 
We have to reach people and 

1525
01:25:13,440 --> 01:25:16,920
reaching them means bringing 
the, the, the knowledge of 

1526
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:20,640
Christ to them, right? 
It's not not just taking care of

1527
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:24,160
some external factors. 
We should do that too, but it's 

1528
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:26,800
also coming with the gospel that
has the power to deliver the 

1529
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:30,040
heart. 
So there's our evangelism, 

1530
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:35,760
there's our mission. 
We're wrapping up. 

1531
01:25:37,360 --> 01:25:42,640
All right, we're out of time. 
We were 5 minutes over. 

1532
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:43,400
Cheers everyone.