Welcome back to to real witches. Hello, and blessed.
Be, I'm okay, and I'm Danny, and we're just a couple of
practicing witches, seeking initiation into a garden area
and tradition of Wicca every full moon.
And new moon were discussing things we're learning and And
researching sharing magical discourse and hold space, for
other witches to do the same. We are two real witches,
shooting the shit and nerding out on magical topics.
So if you're into the occult the esoteric or the otherworldly,
come hang out with us and liminal space sound.
In today's episode, we're going to review ancestral veneration,
and share a little bit about our practice on before we get
started. I want to know catch up what you
up to, what's going on with your classes workshops books.
What are you reading? Yes.
Thanks for asking Danny. For my are updates.
I would point to a couple of things.
I just did finish the book that I was started last time.
I think we talked, which was the modern witchcraft with Greek
gods with us. Yeah, Estrella Taylor and Jason
Mann Kee. And there was a really great
part about Hestia and there, which is awesome because Hestia
is not. Well, documented, and so many
places and the book is really cool because it creates like
both, you know, they're getting as much factual historical.
Oracle documentation as possible but then they're also having
people other than them kind of like chiming in and sharing
personal practices and also personal like gnosis of the
deities. And then they also share like
example rituals that you could do using the different deities.
So, yeah. It was a really informative and
practical book and and also like just really easy to read, so
would highly recommend for anybody who is Is looking deeper
into working with Greek gods. I also am just super excited
about this magazine. Everybody loves a magazine, you
know, being able to read those short articles.
I'm here for it. The mountain astrologer and we
can link the actual website but it is beautiful.
It is Is the cover and the art often in these magazines that
are like Pagan magazines or like a cult magazines, the art is
like a little like, like a pony, it's very, very DIY looking and
this art is just like beautiful and amazing.
And so I'm excited to order their back issues of previous
releases that they've had and they go all the way back to
like, 20 20. So I'm going to both subscribe
and order some back. Shoes.
You know, it has some really cool tips around astrology.
Like they just did their like best of 2022 reviews and they
had. Sorry that's Nelson clicking and
clacking. They had their best of like
astrology podcast, astrology websites, astrology tools.
And So based on like who won, I was able to then go find like a
new astrology podcast. And so, Yeah, it seems like it's
going to be a really great resource.
Thanks. Yeah.
How about you? And he are updates.
So I started a shadow work journal and this one came pretty
highly recommended and it's pretty popular out there.
So I thought I'd just start at work through it.
I haven't delved through enough of it to really give like a good
opinion, but it's the Luna and soul, I guess, Shadow work
Journal. I kind of don't want to ride in
it. It's very pretty.
And so I'm like do that. Do I just write in a journal?
Like do I just answer the prompts and do the work in the
journal? So I might I might not but I
actually went and had it like printed and bound because it was
passed to me like as a PDF version so I wouldn't had it
like printed and bound and so I wanted to kind of preserve it in
case you know someone else wanted to use it.
But that's what I'm kind of getting into recently.
Where did you find this? Yeah.
So just through some of the Facebook groups that I keep up
with some of them actually a couple of the groups had it like
in their resources tabs and so I was like, hmm, the look more
into that. That's right.
Shadow work isn't just for Samhain.
I love that. Alright, so let's get into some
fire update. So talking about some actions.
I sound like I've been yelling at a concert And because I have,
I just got back from New Orleans last night, and the reason that
we traveled there, my partner, and I was to see the Cure, this
was their first tour date of this tour and oh my God.
So the everything it was everything it was everything and
Robert Smith is like I don't know 65 I should probably Google
it. Probably don't need to be, but
because he's listening to our podcast, I don't know if okay,
Smith is tuning into to witches, but his voice is so beautiful,
and they played for like, two, two and a half hours, and he
sounds. So just, yeah, he's taking very
good care of his voice and it was really, really impressive.
So yeah. And you know, of course, we did
some other things and went to all the, you know, occult
stores. And we had a really cool food
tour that I would recommend for sure.
I'll put a link to that. I guess I should probably just
do like a little resource of things that I know to be good in
New Orleans like engines. If you have that in our socials,
but I also went to a like local bar that was there because there
was a dark wave. Band playing that I had heard of
previously. And so we went to this like
local place called Santos and the show is like not great.
The sound was was rough but I'm also like a total snob when it
comes to like sound production and shows went to summation over
the years but yeah it was really fun.
How about you? What's your fire update?
So I had started making those oils and I just put my first one
together. I'm actually posted it.
It's on my witchy Instagram at Danny, at the southern hollers
of the Southern hollers. And so it's up there along with
like exactly what I put into it because sharing is caring, you
know? But it turned out really well
like I really enjoyed it. My daughter was like what is
that? That smells amazing and I was
like, yes I win. I want yeah so nothing too
crazy. I did start the rose petal wine
from Beltane. So I'm gay.
Awesome. And so the the rose one is for
Beltane next year's. Yep.
Next year's. Okay.
It's really pretty. It's like this like really deep
pink color. It's really beautiful.
It looks really nice and it was it.
That's just naturally from the Roses itself for.
Yeah. Cool.
Right. So I guess water Updates this
would be like, you know, kind of Lane's where we emotionally.
I just got, you know, had two weeks off from work, which is
amazing. And you know so I number one
realized that I'm really good at not working.
I'm like I can't be myself. So busy, I'm ready for
retirement. Now there's so many copies on
things. Yeah I'm ready.
People like no you can't retire because then you won't know to
do with your time and like AA not absolutely mad.
Now when you're a witch and there's like the world's
Mysteries to discover so but yeah, I'm feeling really
decompressed not stressed, super blessed, but wanting to kind of
carry that back into my real world and, you know, really
wanted to commit to, you know, back to my journaling practice
and just staying grounded. I had Em.
I'm starting to dip my toe into researching more like ceremonial
magic stuff and I could kind of go off on a tangent here.
But there is a really cool plastic ritual that was devised
by like, you know, the Order of the Golden Dawn, it's called the
Lesser ritual of the pentagram and it's steps.
It uses Angels name. I'm sitting know that that's not
always comfortable for people. Okay.
I think I've heard of this, I haven't looked too far into it.
Yeah. And there are, you know,
multiple versions of this. There are like that's kind of
like the Baseline ritual and it's a mental exercise that, you
know, is advised to be performed like twice a day up to like four
times a day, you know, because we all have that kind of time
but I'm sure he wants a day. So I'm going to do this and and
yeah it really kind of use that along with journaling to kind of
stay grounded and try to hold on to you know my my just children
ready right now. Yeah.
How about you what's flowing through your life?
You know, it's this March through July time, right smack
dab in the middle of it. So I'm just trying to like craft
kind of livable Harmony. I don't love the word balance.
When we talk about like work-life balance because Never
is a balance. There's that this doesn't
happen. So instead, like Harmony like,
how do I create a life? Where like I'm meeting
expectations here and meeting the things I want to hear and
like, making those things work out.
So which is kind of part of what led me to this.
The shadow work thing is like, how do I both get everything
done, but at the end of it, not be.
So burnt out that I'm not enjoying any of it, right?
Yeah. So I also, I'm just keeping my
mind like things. So, from here only like degress.
So Sports season is essentially / / going to start back up here
and a month but the main part of it isn't until December of next
year or so things are kind of slowing down their work.
Things will kind of hit a head right around July but then
they'll slow down from there. So I'm just trying to like all
right, we're all on the downward, the downhill roll from
here, so things really only. Better from here.
Yeah. And then why don't you feel like
it's all terrible at it only gets better from here.
Yay. It can only go up, you know I'm
saying? Real, real real world.
Look it. But why don't you tell us or
stuff? What have you been buying?
Let's go ahead and your life, which all right.
Now, honestly, I've been like, resisting really purchasing
anything and bringing new things, and, you know, I'm, I'm
blessed in a lot of ways. And so focusing on, you know,
appreciating and having gratitude through what I have is
really kind of where I'm at right now.
I might I'm thinking considering like a no by especially
specifically around like magical stuff like a know by period of
time and just working with, you know, what's around me.
But I yeah, so I'm really trying to focus.
Some moron like inner landscape. And like mental discipline, I
had an experience recently with Danny, you'll know this with
being by myself in my thoughts for an extended period of time
and you know, it was really powerful and a lot of ways and
it was also really eye-opening in how much I could continue to
build in that. Rhea.
I think that was one of the kind of lessons that I had.
As I was spending a lot of time in my own head that sounds like
I went to jail speaking of WhatsApp and it sounds like I
went with you. We shared a cell and we couldn't
talk to, you know, it's something that's, you know, part
of our outer core experience that we're not talking about
because things have to be hidden and It's not oath bound per se
but it's also not something that everyone will experience because
it's specific to our outer court.
But nevertheless, you know, it made me think about I'm like,
wow, you know, being left with your thoughts alone, for a long
time, is can be really magical. It could also be like really
torturous and that made me start thinking about Damien Echols, do
you know, Damien Echols that whole story think?
Okay, I don't think I do. So I highly recommend.
If anybody has not watch this video, it's from like the Arts.
I think, I don't know. I should have looked it up
before hand, but it's called Paradise Lost.
And it's a documentary about these three boys who were
charged with the murder of another person during satanic
panic and because they, you know, listen to rock music and
because they, you know, read a cult books, they were really
demonized and they were Found guilty with like no true, just
cause and a really shitty trial. And, and so Damien Echols, and
the other people, that also went to jail, spent 18 years in
prison on death row, they were sentenced to death.
And there are legal, legal appeals, and all of these
things. But his story is so like crazy.
And, and, you know, the time that we're in right now, it's
hard for us to imagine that. But it's not that long ago, you
know, it's within my lifetime like that happened when I was an
adolescent and I'm not that old. So things can quickly change in
the public opinion and we have seen a lot of that change
recently with women's rights. So any rate I could go on like I
said in this topic but just the idea of somebody sitting with
their thoughts. Or 18 years in solitary
confinement, for the majority of that time, facing death, and
then, you know, he really developed himself as a magician
during that time period because he was allowed to read books.
And he was allowed to, of course, meditate and you don't
do anything. He could do in a cell like that
and it is just mind-blowing to me and really aspirational
clearly. I don't want that experience, I
clearly would never wish that on.
Buddy but the fact that he was able to and I'm sure it wasn't
always like this discipline magical and you know Divine but
the fact that he was able to spend that amount of time
meditating building his inner world is really like
inspirational to me. And I think that yeah that's
that's the challenge that I'm giving to myself right now which
is like I'm really pretty good about controlling my thoughts
around seeing opportunities rather than challenges.
I think this whole like you know, I'm the product of The
manifestation movement around like the secret, right.
The idea of like continue to think about what you do want and
like it don't there's not no need to dwell on what you don't
want, just doing what you do want and then find and you'll,
you know, you'll solve that problem.
And so I'm really pretty disciplined in that area when it
comes to manifestation. I would say in the other areas
of things like deity contact, you know, Ancestral veneration.
Those are more of a stretch for me because I haven't practiced
that, you know, so yeah, my challenge to myself is building
my inner world. Can you tell my cold brew just
kicked him, sorry for that ramble?
Now, I loved all of that. I know that name though, is he?
Yeah, author, he is an author. He has three books, magical
Books. Okay.
I was like, I am to name but I am.
And honestly like I was not mean I was thinking about it briefly
because of the time that we spent But the fact that I went
to New Orleans, he has moved in the last few years, to New
Orleans. And so he had these like really
cool tours on YouTube. As I was researching, like,
different places to go and.yeah. I just kind of went on a rabbit
hole watching some of his content.
The, you know, he's very much like ceremonial magician plus
Zen Buddhist, which is an interesting combination but the
Lesser that lesser Sir ritual of the pentagram is something that
you know he definitely started with and it's something a lot of
people do. But that's certainly.
What kind of put it on my radar again.
So yeah, definitely check them out.
It's It's really, really interesting story and it's, I
don't know, like what a saint, you know, like like a which they
ain't in a martyr. And please.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. With great about you sorry.
Thanks Hannah. No, I was saying with great,
sacrifice comes, that's where, you know, we talked about
sacrifice and the idea of sacrifice.
And while I think putting yourself to unnecessary
sacrifice doesn't always yield the kind of results.
That That you're looking for, in that case, it wasn't like he had
a choice and so that in that sacrifice for something, so
great to come out of it, five, such an awful terrible
experience. Like, you know, that's, that's
great. That he got that experience,
awful that him and those other people lived through that.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean but he has like
brain damage and you know, his eyesight was you know,
thoroughly And he is like, PTSD for sure.
Obviously that the fact that he was able to use that in a
functional way, is amazing. Yeah.
What's going on with you now that I've found murdered?
Um, if so you're so great over there and I'm meanwhile, you're
like, I'm think I'm gonna go on a nobody and I'm like, listen,
let me tell you what I just bought it's I it's only because
like a few, my partner, literally like just came to my
rich. The room was like, oh, this
looks like a witch craft store and I was like, okay, so that
means I need to stop buying things if I look like the store,
okay, all right. Or or it just means it was very
well put together and it looked very organized, replicate right.
You're right. But I bought a mortar and pestle
button old, wooden one, like an antique one.
Like it's cracked in the bottom, it clearly got some really good.
Side of it but it's a really tall stand one.
Like I have ones, my kitchen that are like small small batch
kind of things. But I wanted a large one to make
incense in. And that would be like, not used
for any kitchen stuff or anything like that, that I could
like, confidently mix up some things that aren't supposed to
be ingested and so I just love it.
It's so beautiful. And it's so well worn.
And I like cleansed it and I just giving me all the happy
which Vibes. So Really pumped about my mortar
and pestle, and then our ancestor altar.
I've been buying a lot of stuff too.
Like outfit it now that my partner has gotten on board
with, putting his family members on their.
So again, we'll talk about it as part of this episode but
including like a plant for everybody and then like planters
that kind of like speak to who they were as people and trinkets
that belonged to them, or that represent something about them.
So, kind of outfitting That Base has kind of My focus lately.
I love that. It's so awesome.
Okay. Well those are our Elemental
updates in our which up to segment.
I'm gonna I'm really trying to get on the jingle for that
section. I'm going to try, I'm
prioritizing it. It's important to my life as
part of our editing process but before we get Get into today's
topic which is as Danny pointed out ancestor veneration.
We have to say, Happy Mother's Day.
Danny, we're recording on Mother's Day.
You're taking your your special time to hang out with me and so
I just have to say, Happy Mother's Day.
Does we? Thank you?
Yeah, I'm feeling very motherly. I spent my morning like getting
everybody out of bed and doing the things, you know, the normal
stuff, and then promptly, Taking them out of the house, so that
we could record and then just outfitting my ancestor altar.
So the moms on my ancestor altar, putting up flowers and
stuff for them getting coffee. Put up for everybody and all of
that. So yeah, film very, very loved
and motherly. And in that happy dappy space.
Oh, you're so cute. Your kids got it.
Good. I don't know if they know but I
hope they know I'm going to tell him.
Okay, so we are going to be approaching today's ancestral
veneration topic. The same way that we have been
setting up, which is again, based on Elemental.
So we're going to go through kind of the are aspects of this
would be definitions or maybe references on the topic will go
through fire segment which is going to be actions and things
you can do on the topic. We'll get into the water segment
which is about History of the topic and kind of some feelings
around it. And then finally, we will
approach the topic being inspired by Earth.
So this will be as we integrate these things.
What are some challenges or some obstacles that may arise?
What are some problematic? Or practical things that we're
going to experience as we start to integrate these these topics.
So we're going to start with as I said, are and Danny, I think.
You had some reference for us on the top of ya.
So ancestor veneration, I feel like it's something that's
always been a part of my family in that, there's always been
this great respect for ancestors and wanting to like, remember
them. But as far as how to build a
practice that was never, something that was kind of
passed down to me or anything that was really explored in my
family. And so I actually had picked up
a book about ancestor veneration that was just phenomenal.
It really? This subject that can be really
touchy. Especially for people who maybe
don't have family structures, like a nuclear family or have
even family members that like exist outside of their immediate
family. It really approaches that topic
for like, how to deal with those mundane aspects and how do we
kind of work through those and what could you do instead?
And so the book is honoring your ancestors.
A guide to ancestral veneration by Mallory valdo.
A Felt always be a Udo is e. It's French.
And I'm off Le French. I'm so sorry, but it's
phenomenal book. The way that the author kind of
broke down, like, what is ancestor veneration?
What is incest or worship? What do you do?
If you don't know these people, what if you do, what do you do?
If you do know these people but you don't enjoy them, you know,
how do we explore that? And just all kinds of things.
So even past like offerings and how do we honor them even until
like, well what if they really liked alcohol and they were an
alcoholic, is it wrong of me to put alcohol on the ancestor all
for like she really just broke down all of that and it was
really just a phenomenal book. It's awesome.
I haven't read that. Maybe you'll have to let me
borrow it since I'm in a not want to have her sent I'll bring
it the next time that we get together for sure.
Awesome. As part of this It's kind of are
section as well. I think it's worth pointing out
some definitions or maybe some points of separation of the
topic. So, ancestor veneration.
I think everyone listening to this podcast is going to know
we're talking about which is trying to connect with create
relationship with worship. If that word isn't triggering
for you people who are either directly in your previous,
Family line or maybe part of a larger ancestral DNA or
potentially, you know, ancestors.
There's some other way that you're connected to them, right?
So ancestors could be family, but it could also be people who
are within your magical tradition as an example.
So, ancestor is pretty wide. Topic and can be defined in a
couple different ways. I think that it's also worth
pointing out with in just our American muggle World some ways
in which ancestor veneration pops up.
One thing that I was reading some articles about the topic,
of course, and one thing that came up which I thought was.
So intriguing was the idea that, you know, in the modern complex
of Real death and how we as a culture deal with bodies that
have expired, the idea that we embalm bodies still is almost
creating this thought that we clearly think that something is
happening where we need to preserve the body.
And it's not just always for the purposes of, you know, having a
open-casket ceremony, even people who have closed, caskets
are still in. Armed and we really don't need
that to be the case. There's a lot of people within
the death movement. Now that are talking about how
unnecessary expensive and potentially like biologically
damaging that is to the environment.
So that's it. Just you know, the fact that we
embalm is it like really interesting choice for us
because we have refrigeration. So that's not actually needed.
And the other thing that I think we can point to in our modern
world is in the u.s. at least is like Memorial Day.
So Memorial Day is Like We are often remembering the people who
have passed on and service of our country and remembering
people who have given their lives quote unquote for for our
country and for quote, unquote Freedom.
So yeah, just interesting to see that pop up.
I think a lot of people may not have the idea of ancestor
veneration or worship as part of their daily experiences the way.
You know, Danny you were kind of coming up.
I certainly did it have that while we would remember people
fondly it wasn't something that was talked about in my regular
day to day. So it's funny to think of just
Memorial Day is Like Us remembering literally our
national got ancestor veneration.
Yeah right. And I think I mean we also would
see it's a topic that is more and more popular and accepted I
think a big part of that is because of was it did Pixar
Pixar. Having the the cocoa?
Yeah. Did you pick sorry?
Yeah. Oh my gosh.
All right, Marv, family. We love that movie.
And I'm sure that historically, and, and culture, it's probably
not the most accurate thing in the world, but we love that.
And, and there's those connections, right?
The ofrenda, like, having a space where you honor your
ancestors, like, my, my kids have that connection where
they're like, oh, it's like our, our altar that has, like Papa
and Nana. And, you know, all these people
It gives me goosebumps cool. Yeah.
Oh my gosh. I love that.
That's so cool. And the other thing I would say,
as just kind of part of this are topic is, you know, we just
finished our two-part series, I guess to it qualify.
As enough as a serious conversation on Daddy Worship in
our course, transitioning to ancestor worship and and there's
some clear connections, right? You would Worship in a lot of
the same way. Ways, in terms of your actual
activities, you know, you can do ritual, you can do praise, you
can do offerings. But Additionally, you know, the
idea that, you know, why would we be doing these things?
Other than feeling like a wholesome, like good person
thumbs-up, you care about your grandparents, who passed on.
That's really cool. We would do that really for the
same reasons that potentially we outlined as benefits to our
current reality. In the real world you know, in
the same way that we would benefit from worshipping God's
we benefit from connecting with our ancestors, so they can
provide us protection. They can provide us certain
abilities, whether that's you know, the power of divination or
you know strength or whatever. We also would benefit in
potential manifestation so everything that we benefit from
in a way that We would worship our ancestors, it's the same
thing as gods and vice versa. So just want to make that
potential connection, Alright. And then we're going to get into
fire a little bit there and an action.
So I wanted to share a little bit of my practice and kind of
what that looks like. So it's actually sitting and you
guys won't be able to see it, but it's directly behind where
we record this podcast is where my ancestor altar is, and it's
like a wall. Like, it's not, it's Altars are
like on top of a table top or on top of like a, like a dresser or
something like that, but ours is wall shelves.
So it's like three really long wall shelves.
And then each one of those sections is for someone in our
family. So it has up there, my Papaw, my
mama, my partner's mom who passed when he was very young,
his grandparents who have passed now and then kind of how I honor
them. Miz just making note of the
things that we knew about them, right?
We didn't necessarily know everything about them, we won't
remember everything about them, but even small details like
that. My mama was left-handed.
So, whenever I put her coffee or her water up there, I always put
it on the side where her left hand would be because she's
left-handed she would have used, you know, that hand.
I also keep a plant for each person and that is a way for me
to care for something for the dead.
So the plants aren't Lead tied to them.
I mean, I do and I start looking for plants for them, try to pick
something that I'm like, I think they would like that.
Or this reminds me of them in some way.
So, like, I have a purple plant for somebody.
I know love the color purple. So things like that.
So through the act of like caring for something watering
something nourishing, something for them to me, it's a way to
take care of them. I always keep water out for
them. I have noticed that some
people's water drains Or other people's do, despite it being in
the same part of the house, in the same place and the same
humidity. And so, just keeping an eye on
those and keeping those kind of topped off.
I do put out coffee weekly for those who drank coffee, as I get
to know, kind of my partner's ancestors.
You know, if they drink tea, I'll put out tea.
Just something kind of as a pick-me-up for them and anything
that I make by hand, food-wise that is, you know, not just
aren't like normal dinner. Sure, I'll put out for them as
well. So like I have banana bread in
the oven right now and once that is done and cools down, like
I'll cut some small pieces to put out for them and note with
that though is that it's tends to be frowned upon to like leave
those out past their freshness. So, you know, when you start to
see it, it's done like a day or two from now.
It'll be done. And I'll pull it.
I also keep kind of Trinkets and small items.
So for instance, my partner's mom, he has like the small glass
unicorn trinket that was hers. Unicorns were something that she
really loved. And so I keep that out there on
the altar because otherwise it's just going to sit in a shelf or
in a drawer somewhere. Why not put it somewhere where
she can enjoy it? My mama made a baby blanket for
me. A Barney baby blanket that I
have inside of a wooden box. Aside, her picture that actually
has the inscription of her last handwriting to me before she
passed. I was getting ready to go on a
school trip and she had written me a card.
It was right before the holidays.
And so it says, I hope you enjoyed your trip.
Love my mom, Pat. So I've put it got too ingrained
on a box to put the blanket in and it's cool.
Because as much as it was like about that trip.
It was. I also like to think that she's
wishing me well on this trip of life and so I put it up there,
kind of as a reminder about her. I also have a painting of the
Blue Ridge Mountains beside my Paw Paw's, well, behind his
picture really good takes up his whole Space because that bag on
Mountain was so damn important to him.
He would not come off of it even when he you know, really needed
like assistance and really could have like used a home health
nurse or somebody to be. He was not going to come off
that damn Mountain. So it was important to him.
So I put it up there. For him.
And that's really the long and short of my practice and kind of
what it looks like on like a week-to-week day-to-day.
What about you, okay, what do you have gone on?
I just love the detail of a person being left handed and you
changing the orientation of the cup.
Just sitting here just for a little, the little things I have
a planter that's actually a paint brush holder like for an
artist because one of our ancestors was Artists.
And so I put a plant in that because, you know, just just
things to remember and keep their memory alive.
Yeah. I imagine to the fact that
you're working with your partner's ancestors and making
space and they're kind of coming around to that that that must
also help strengthen your own relationship to like, you know,
whether or not he's really into it and maybe it's just the plain
along. The fact that you take such Such
interest in, who he is and who he, you know, where he came
from. I think that that's I'm sure
it's really meaningful for him to.
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I don't want to speak
for him but I do think because his mom passed when he was so
young. There's only so much he actually
remembers and so to take those those few details and make them
important, I think helps to kind of minimize the, why didn't know
a whole lot about her? And so I don't feel like I
really Of to like, commemorate or venerate her?
No, of course you do. She was your mom and whether you
remember whole lot about her isn't super important, but she
was important to you. And that was probably, the
definitely, the most devastating thing that had happened up until
that point in your life. So, of course, we should honor.
Remember, and remember what you remember about her?
And so, I think it's opened kind of those doors into may be
releasing some like guilt or Shame about not, knowing Them
really well and feeling like well, so many other people knew
them, so much better than I did. But you still deserve to feel
that, right? And to honor that.
Yeah, that's a special. It's really, I didn't think
about this daddy. When we were scheduling this
recording on Mother's Day, about ancestral worship, and my mother
also passed when I was young, I think you're attracting people
like that Danny. Is it me?
Am I the your the drama I'm trying to Mother everyone.
You are the like maybe needs needs some.
Do you need a mom either? Thanks for, uh, somebody needs
to be in charge of me. I can't do this.
No, so yeah, made my mom passed on when I was 15 really
tragically, and, and I did not have a good relationship with
her and so it's definitely ancestor veneration.
Ian has helped me, do a lot of healing in a lot of ways, but I
just thought it was. So ironic that, of course, we
plan the ancestor veneration episode on Mother's Day.
I'm like, okay, I hear it. Okay, right.
Well, I don't even think it's that weep.
I think it's definitive that we did not plan it.
Yeah. Didn't it up here, right?
It had to be this a there was like another day.
It could have been. Yeah, so interesting.
So for me, you know, I have up into this point really only.
It worked with the women in my family.
I didn't have a relationship with, really, any of the men.
My dad was adopted, so that's creates its own kind of
Challenge. On my mom's side.
Her father was an alcoholic and died when I was a baby.
And then, I did know my great-grandfather because I love
my family is Southern and had children when they're 15.
Right. My yeah.
My Greek parents were definitely around when I was a kid, but it
was actually my great-grandmother's.
Second husband, she divorced in a time when it's like uncommon
because he was her first husband was really abusive.
And so Hansel is not the cutest name.
Oh my gosh. Lori and enhance like any of
them Laura I was like it could only be have been Gretel but
okay, fine. Lawrence pretty close.
Yeah, you know I don't know I didn't have a lot of connection
with him. There wasn't any like shared
blood necessarily and I know that he was definitely good in
our family. My family is absolutely based in
matriarchs. The the men are really just like
accessories to that lady story. So I've only yeah, I've only
really worked with women in my family.
So for me, you know, I also have an altar and moving into this
house. I since I had a whole room that
I could have a ritual room and I moved, my ancestor altar into my
ritual room. But previously, I had it in my
dining room and I would like, have breakfast kind of with them
and like, have their pictures there, and kind of mentally have
a bit of a conversation around like updates and things like
that. And I really missing that, so I
think I'm actually going to be moving the altar out there.
The all my altar is also shelves on the wall so it's really more
holes in walls. I love to do that.
It's my favorite thing that but yeah, you know, I think food and
family were. I think it's probably most
people are that way. It's really strong connection
because smell And taste is such a strong, scent connected with
memory, but I think we all agree on that, like, eating with your
family, is a very Human Experience.
So yeah. So I think anything kind of
connected to food, I actually do a dumb supper for Salen where I
set a table with all of the play settings, for all of my
ancestors. Women apparently only, I didn't
actually realize that until I was like, wait, it's all ladies,
right? I didn't even see.
Them as women because they're like it is ladies night.
Yeah. There are also strong and like
yeah these are these are people who are church at any rate.
I so I put their pictures up and I cook you know big Southern
dinner with like collard greens and pork chops.
Breaded pork chops right? Because pork needs reading
apparently and yeah and serve them next to their picture and
tell stories. Trees and then spend some time
in kind of quiet. Contemplation my partner
participated last year with me and it was a real awkward like
be like you can't talk just sit there and eat is yeah it's it's
it's awkward. So I made it the rule like will
spend like an egg timer worth of time not talking and like right
below me. Of Silence rather than an
extended period of Silence because it just felt wrong,
right? Yeah.
So we got dumped Sniper. I'm loving that.
One of it. I actually have heard versions
of that where, like, I guess probably to bridge that like
quietness Gap. People have like, instead like
gone around the table and told stories about the people at the
table to like, keep their memory alive.
And to kind of promote blue, like, oh my gosh.
No, I can't believe they did that.
That really happened, you know? Yeah.
Because, yeah, I don't know how you did it.
I wouldn't have been able to shut the fuck up long enough.
I mean I'm a fast eater so I think in this kind of fire topic
of actions, I think we wanted to touch on the idea of leveraging
a modern tool like you know DNA testing for genetic markers of
where your family came from. Historically.
So like I use like ancestry.com and I think you also use this as
well, right? Yeah, yeah, I did I kind of had
a good idea because my parents are both from the same
geographic area that like my history would be pretty
relatively the same for both of them and they are.
But yeah, I did use it just out of curiosity because my mom all
for years and years and years told us that like somewhere in
our lineage we were indigenous and I was like, Okay sure Mama.
But I wanted to actually plug it in somewhere and kind of see.
Okay, where did where did that happen in our and hurt lifetime
that she recalls so and you proved it, I did actually got
pictures of it was her great grandfather.
So it has been my great, great, great grandfather.
So, yeah, it was my mama's great-grandfather.
So it was someone that she distinctly remembered, and I got
pictures. Them to be like, oh, he liked
was not, you know, a pale pasty Irish Swiss person like us.
So, you know, and I only have a name and a picture, but it still
is really interesting to like see it and to see it show up
percentage-wise, you know, in my jeans.
Yeah, my, as I said, my dad's adopted.
So, for me, it was really interesting.
I had no idea what was potentially the results were
going to be. But yeah, so you know, I have
Like English and Irish and Scottish and and Jewish and
Nigerian and so not surprised to see the Nigerian aspects since I
live in the south and slavery. Clearly was going to affect a
lot of people's DNA. I'm always surprised actually,
like, when you said you didn't have any African yet.
Wow. Okay.
Y'all were not that far south than huh.
We were just poor. That's yeah.
And I'm not to be uninjured servitudes.
That's right. Yeah.
We came over from Scotland. Probably as indentured servants.
So we didn't own any land. We didn't have anything to pass
down to anybody. We were in Appalachia, so, you
know. Yeah, yeah.
I really appreciated, you know, especially having a father who
is resistant against finding his family.
It was cool for me to see. They have this thing
specifically on ancestry.com called like through lines.
And it'll show you kind of over the years.
Is how your genetic markings from parent, 1 or parent to how
those migrated and, you know, my mother's side came in and
specifically settled in Florida? North Florida, and Georgia.
And then, my dad's family were further north, and we're in the
Appalachian area. So, yeah, it was, it's really
cool that they can actually separate it by parent that was
like, really excited to me. You can see the Dream.
And if they don't know their history are, you know, it's
very, yeah, it was really cool to be able to pull up photos,
you know? And these are like photos that
other people have uploaded because somewhere in their
family lines. You know, we connect.
And so it was so cool to see images that otherwise would be
completely lost to me. This is not a plug for
Ancestry.com, we are not being sponsored but you can weirdest
sponsorship though to just put it out there, you know?
Cool. Let's transition into the water
aspects of this topic. So talking about kind of history
and I think primarily we're talking about history here.
So I don't know if everyone is like, you know, had this point
of view that I had, but as a child, when I would hear like
ancestor worship, you know, I would often think of, you know,
South America or maybe Eastern cultures are African Is being
kind of synonymous with the ancestor veneration.
I didn't really think about, you know, Celtic or Welsh people, or
Scandinavian. People having that practice as
well, but as I'm doing research, was actually, I could not find
proof of any kind of ancient people that didn't have some
version of ancestor veneration. The only thing that I can really
point to was Was ancient Greek times.
There were a group of philosophical people who had
kind of an atheist point of view and if you don't believe in a
God, then you probably also don't believe in an afterlife.
So we could deduce not that it has any proof that potentially
they didn't worship or connect with or honor their ancestors
because they were kind of more Atheistic, with their point of
view and they these were the epicureans.
So food was their God. No, just kidding.
They, this is also, but yeah, that this was the only group
that I could really find any theories of not having that
historical ancestor veneration. So then we want to talk about
like, was their first documentation of ancestor
veneration. I think similar, don't we?
Talked about deity worship. There isn't anywhere that like,
we're just like pops up Suddenly.
I think, as long as humans have existed, we've had people's.
And when those people's died, we were sad about it and we wanted
a way to grieve them, to honor them to come back and remember
them. And so I think between burial
rites and things like that, it we really had a hard time
finding like a first. This was the first example of
answer. Yeah.
Raishin that. I mean there's, there's Like
like fate that will like point to the most recent discovery of
proof of like burial grounds but as you know, time continues we
continue to uncover new artifacts that then date back
even further. So it would be kind of silly for
us to point to currently the most ancient version is like,
you have to assume that we're going to keep doing this right.
Give it another two years. Yeah.
But I think the The biggest
thing is like any ancient peoples that buried their dead,
probably weren't doing it for, just logistical reasons and we
see that as proof when they are building structures.
So burial, mounds, right? These like monoliths, anything
that took a lot of time when time was valuable because you
were trying to eat and live and survive.
Any time, someone would spend energy caloric, energy to build.
For the purposes of burial can be proof of ancestor veneration
some way, whether it's just respect, but we would also
probably do some type of connection.
Yeah. Absolutely.
And then we thought it would be interesting, just to kind of
talk about some different cultural ancestor veneration
practices, ancestor worship practices kind of around the
world, a kind of point out some similarities and some
differences but I pulled one here.
That was really interesting to me from Madagascar and it's
Femme De Hannah and it's essentially the Reburial of
their dead that they exhume to rewrap and fresh silk.
So this idea of like like I'm talking about changing out the
water, right? Or changing up this idea that
like we want to bring the dead up again, to keep them fresh or
to keep the things that we wrap them in fresh for them.
And then they take the time during the reburial of the
person to honor them to celebrate them and their life.
Really just seemed like a really Sweet thing to do.
Especially I, you know, I don't know what their burial practices
look like prior to, but just imagine like those silks like
having to like unwrap them and peel them off by the delicacy.
You would have to use to do that.
I've seen some videos of your process.
Yeah. Yeah.
And it's like a like the whole Community kind of coming
together. I don't think they do this with
everyone. I think they do this with like
certain people but I mean I like fresh sheets so I'm sure that
won't change. I'm good.
Yeah, for sure. And then, in Rome, they had a
nine Day, Festival called parent Talia parent.
I assume being the the base word there to celebrate ancestors.
It reminded me The Way It Was Written.
I'm very similar to like, be a, los Muertos.
Like the idea that you like, go to the place where you're dead
are buried. And you share a meal with them
and leave offerings to them and share conversation and space
with them kind of in this belief that during this time that
there's this Imanol space where Spirits can more easily kind of
come over and you can commune with them and now Daddy's going
to try to pronounce a Welsh word.
And so the Welsh they have Palin Gaius and if you are Welsh and
an offended by that pronunciation, I'm so sorry.
I'm doing my best here Beauty and I think he's really good
actually Palin gay. If there's a there's it's
because all the vowels, you know, I mean it's so many.
I was put together that my American dialect is like I don't
know how to say that but the first day of winter in Wales is
known as calan gaeaf and it's believed that at this time the
spirits of ancestors can kind of move between that liminal space.
We can commune with them during this time and so what was
interesting to me is that people in Wales, traditionally avoid
cemeteries, during this time with the belief that like maybe
malevolent spirit It's are more likely to intervene with you at
this time, but the traditional way to honor, one's ancestors,
during calan gaeaf is to avoid encounters with negative
Spirits, by writing your name, on a rock and placing it near a
fire, which I am sure that there's some symbol e, some
semblance there and some magical purpose there.
But just an interesting thing from there, tell me about then
about Scotland. I think you had some stuff.
Yeah. I mean So I don't know if a lot
of people can make clear divisions and Celtic Gaelic
culture, that's like a whole conversation and there is a lot
of nuance there around, you know, the different tribes in
that space. But separate from Welsh we could
look at Scottish people celebration of Samhain this
being a Celtic holiday and it is marking the end of fall.
And Getting of winter, right? So steering one Halloween,
modernly is and they believed that ancestors, of course, could
walk among the living at will. And so to both an honor, your
ancestors. And also, as you kind of pointed
out, they, you know, very much had belief in faith, you know,
spirits of the land. We could go into another
definition of what fate is. But often, you know, they were
trying to protect themselves against negative thing counters
but the celebrants if they would kind of offer food and drink and
offer departed family members like a seat at the feast, then
either they would be kind of protected from that.
And so when I say that I kind of practice like a dumb supper it
is through this Celtic tradition that I'm that I'm referencing
and you know I would We'll have a reference to a website.
This website is amazing. I kind of discovered it in
looking for kind of ancestral topics.
This website is all about helping people plan, end of life
care and like Logistics. It's amazing.
I'm so I'm it's very practical yet morbid.
I love it. It's all old join kake.com.
What will put a note? Note in the in the show notes,
but they have this great article that, you know, outlines just
different examples of it. And I'm pulling some examples
here. Specifically, one of the
Buddhist holiday Ketchum been PCH, um, be Ian tetraman this
ancestral day, which was carrying for the dead ritual.
And what they would generally do is they would celebrate As far
back as Seven Generations, they would be honoring specifically
those ancestors which I think is novel to my research, which just
have like this definitive Seven Generations.
Mark. I was like, oh, that's like
taxes right too soon to I know, I know it's too soon but I just
like this. Like clear cut off, sorry, eight
Generations. We don't care but this would be
for 15 days each year and the families would create offering
Has of food and they would bring this unit to the places of
worship. You know, the Buddhist monks
would get involved. And by making this kind of
offering to the monks, they would help the ancestors, kind
of depart into the spirit world and the, the in exchange the
monks would do chanting all night and really kind of do
these complex ceremonies. But we'll put a link to this
article and, of course, you can And I don't speak too much about
cultures that I'm not a part of, or not really called to, but I
just thought that was as points of kind of difference in how
these things take on meaning and different places how like
involving monks was really interesting.
And then also having that clear Line in the Sand around how far
back you actually go. So yeah, we cool.
All right, and then I think we want to get into kind of Earth
integration that the mundane challenges of Ancestor
veneration and and how that works.
And I think one of the first things we want to touch on is
problematic ancestors. You know, we never know when our
day is going to be when it's all going to be over.
And so you know maybe someone didn't leave on the best terms,
maybe you didn't have the best relationship with them at the
time of their death, maybe, you know them, you have a name but
you don't know a lot about them because they were intentionally
excluded from your life because of the way that they live their
life while they were here. The what are you do in those
scenarios where maybe you can feel like they should be on your
altar because their family? But you don't really know what
to do with them. So what do you think about that
Oak? Well I have a clear example that
my mother and I were not on good terms at all even at the point
of her passing. And I honestly, I think it's why
it's been a block for me in a lot of ways making that
connection Session with her required me to do a lot of like,
kind of forgiving, but also kind of growing and remembering that
her experience was unique to her.
And it was, you know, it's it's not necessarily exactly how I
remember it, right? Like, so if the problematic
aspects of your family are based on personal relationships, I
think it's easier to rectify because you can personally kind
of Take Charge Healing meditate ask for answers and create kind
of compassion. Even when it's like things that
maybe didn't deserve forgiveness.
We like to believe that as Spirits transcend, they know
better. These people were alive in a
time that is different from our own, obviously, and all of the
different social morals and mores of the time.
And so, it's Short, you know, you can continue to Harbor pain
or frustration or anger towards a person who has passed on and
who is now an ancestor of yours. But there's also potentially
benefit in forgiveness and like Shadow healing and making that
connection for your own benefit. So I don't think you got to do
it, you know, like I don't think it mean my mom passed away when
I was 13. It really when I started when I
was 15 and it probably wasn't until I was like 30, like
mid-30s that I really was interested in Remembering her
and her life and trying to think through my memories and
question, my memories as being the way they were and try to
create kind of like, again, that empathy for her situation.
So yeah, it can be a whole bucket of worms.
It can be a lot of Shadow work as As well.
And you don't have to do it if you don't want to.
And if you want to great and if you want to at a later time,
great as well, right? It's not that working with your
ancestors. I think I have recently come to
the understanding that they will help me connect with divinity.
They'll also help guide me and I believe that they have guided me
in a lot of ways and I am benefiting from that but it's
certainly not something that anybody has to do or No other
way through except for connecting with your ancestors.
So if it's a problematic, a painful for you then you don't
do it and you can do it at a later time or you could ever do.
It's up to you. Yeah.
And I think it's not of this or
that, right? Like it will, if I'm going to
practice ancestor veneration, it has to be.
It doesn't. And the book that I referenced
earlier talks really well about that, you know, at what point
you want to cross that bridge and you want to make that
connection Action. You totally can, but you're
really in the driver's seat of this whole thing and not getting
lost in the like, well the ancestor veneration, like the
ancestors lead know, you're in the driver's seat of this so if
you want them on your altar, the knew that if you don't then
don't if you want them at a later time, like you said, then
great bridge. That yeah, I mean, and you can I
could have worked with my grandparents and, you know, not
my mother, right? Yeah.
Nothing stopping you from that. And then we're talking about
sensing resistance, Practice and may be unwilling participation
and I have lots of experience at this.
Again, the mat Papa. Look at him sitting up there.
He looks honoree in his picture, he just looks handsome, I'm just
saying handsome, you met by got away with being so honoree,
somebody out there. Knew he would have to be
attractive to be this honoree. And so anyways he totally like
his glasses. The only one that's always
empty. His candles healing.
That always goes out his plans, always the one that's
struggling. So, you know, it's one of those
things that like for me, I've decided my way through it is to
listen, you're going to be up here because you were important
to me and you can be as honest as you want to.
I didn't expect anything less because that's how you were in
life. So I'm just going to continue to
treat you the same way. I would.
If you were physically in my house and then now that I've
started adding my partner's family members up there, the
definitely the energy up there has changed a little It some
things are a little bit different.
I think at first his grandparents plant immediately
took an bizarre downturn for no apparent reason.
And then now it's starting to like live and backup as I've
like put offerings for them and set out things like in
remembrance of them. And I think it could have been
like a, who the hell are you? Like, what is this?
What is this? What are you doing?
And they also were Christian people, right?
So how do you bridge that Gap with people who?
Maybe didn't share your religious beliefs and now they
are potentially part of your practice or are part of your
belief system. What does that look like?
And again, that book that I referenced earlier on your ring.
Your ancestors also talks through kind of the logistics of
doing something like that. Particular with ancestors who
maybe don't appreciate witchcraft.
Don't want any parts in that, you know, is it okay to put them
on your altar or what does that look like?
Yeah, I mean there's all kinds of complications when it comes
to ancestor veneration. Jason.
It's as complicated as family Dynamics, right?
Like what if you were fine with them but they weren't fine with
each other, right? What about there was abuse
between, you know, one of your ancestors and the other and you
want both of them on your altar, like that is something to
consider the Dynamics of. Yeah.
It's, it's complicated. As it should be, I guess, you
know, mad if it was complicated in life, why wouldn't it be
complicated and definitely your face, right?
And then, you know, what are you?
If you don't know your ancestors again, not all of us have that
privilege, not all of our parents had that privilege.
And so, you know what do you do if you don't have that
relationship? And I think one ancestors of the
land, right? You are a person of place, you
can be a person of the place where you are, or person of a
place that is sacred to you. And so, you can honor that on
your ancestor altar or those deities.
On your ancestor altar, DNA. So we mentioned, you know,
taking those DNA test and kind of seeing, okay?
Well, maybe what culture, am I from, what DD's associated with
that, what important spiritual figures are associated with,
with that culture? And then from there, I think
also if, you know, something about your ancestors, but maybe
you don't know their physical names.
There's always that ability to put something on the altar to
represent them, so we No, someone who knows that they have
some African Heritage, but they don't know who those people are.
And so, you know, as with history, and with time and the
horrible non documentation of enslaved, people, those names
are lost to us. Those histories are lost to us.
And so, what's great about kind of knowing that information is
that you can put something there to represent them and so
although you don't know their names, you don't know
preferences, you don't want to likes.
You have something up there. Knowledge that they are
existence and to show your appreciation for them, even if
you don't have a lot of historical background for them.
Yeah, and kind of plane on the land ancestors of place or if
you live in the u.s. you are live on Stolen land and so
whether or not your ancestors have lived in a place for a long
time, someone was here before them.
So researching understanding the cultural differences the name of
the tribe making offerings to them.
I came from a little small town and there it was named after a
chief that was part of the tribe.
And so he lives he's actually the only dude on my Altar.
And yeah. Yeah.
And so that particular Chief, you know, on some level.
I feel a lot of resistance to doing that because I am
culturally, you know, part of the people that took the Lynn,
right? However, I think it's all about
your intention and reverence and I'm not necessarily asking for
anything I'm more, so, just giving reference to.
So, I think that's something to consider which is like creating
ancestor veneration, not for the purposes of game, but just for
the purposes of like, Cognition and respect that is a potential
play in that way. Yeah.
And then, I think you had a really important Epiphany while
we were kind of putting these together, but you know, that we
are future ancestors, which makes me yes.
Makes me feel very finite In This Moment.
He left, like, I have an expiration date, but yeah, you
know, we are future ancestors. And so when you're thinking,
Thing about building this practice.
What would you want, right? How would you want to be
represented? What?
And maybe not to the nitty-gritty details of like I
like tea versus coffee or you know but imagine what you would
want there and then you can build that practice off that for
me, I know that was plants for me.
I was like, I want something that I can care for them and
show care for them by keeping something alive for the dead.
That, that was something that I would want.
Want for me, is that something in that cycle of birth and death
and rebirth? That something is kept alive for
me upon my death. And so that was really kind of
an epiphany moment for me, when you said that, I was like, oh,
yeah, that's that's essentially how I built my practice is.
I was like, what would I want to have up here?
If this was me, you know, well I'm glad that you had that
thought because I did it. I only said it.
I was like, yes. Yeah, I know I was more so
thinking about the idea of, you know, when we're journaling
potentially recruiting documents that our future family could
read and could reference, like, I don't have, you know, love
letters from my family to each other.
I don't have journals from anybody and it would have been
really special, and I feel like I could have connected with them
even deeper. If I did have those resources,
and I know A lot of families with means I think have more
artifacts that survived frankly, but thinking about also we're
talking about ancestors. We're also talking about the
fact that people have passed on. So I do want to.
Also point to you will be. You could be at a venerated
ancestor in the future. You also will be someone's
burden to bury and to deal with the logistics of passing.
And so thinking about, you know, we talked about, you know,
making Wills thinking through the morbidity aspects of that
process that website. I think it's a really great
reference of, like, how do you actually plan for end-of-life?
This is how the hell is this? Not something that is talked
about in high school like screw head.
Look I'm going to die, you know, how did we not anyways?
So thinking about both yourself as like, you know, it's great to
leave things for people and to you know, but it's also great to
not leave them with burden. So that would be potentially
something that's very down-to-earth in this topic we
could make to. Yeah yeah.
Anything else on the topic Danny?
No I mean I think we've kind of I've exhausted all of our our
Collective knowledge here, so I think we're about ready to close
it up then. Awesome.
Well, thank you so much. I mean the details of your
practice and how you share that. I really appreciate it and
inspired by it. You're so sweet.
No. I I really appreciate to like
seeing someone else's practice because I really built this off
of that book that I referenced earlier.
And and we really thinking through the logistics of like,
what would I want to see if I was my face was up.
What would I want to see? And so it's really cool I think
to see other people's practices and be like oh no that's
awesome. That you keep something up there
for the names. You don't know you know on on
your ancestor altar because I don't have that.
I'm a very finite real there's a visual and so I think it's
really cool to maybe even put my great-great-great
great-grandfather up there because I only have a name for
him but he was important, you know to our history.
So yeah. Well thank you for being so
specific. Pacific.
I hope it's it's always inspiring to me and we know that
we're only doing this podcast for selfish reasons.
So, thank you. All right, guys.
Well, we will follow up with another episode and here in
about, I guess, by the time you're listening to this about
two weeks from then. So, as always, which is blessed,
be and be well,