Welcome back to to real witches. I'm here with my
out-of-this-world co-host Oak. I'm here with my delicious
Christmas Danny. Today, we're rounding out the
second episode of deity worship, building on episode 2, with the
actions feelings and history this time.
So let's Dive In. All right, so before we get into
any of the content, I wanted to, just kind of give some
explanation around how we had organized, the previous episodes
episode 2 and here in episode 3, how we're going to be
approaching the topics we were playing with this a little bit
and I think it worked out. Well, the inspiration for how
were organizing the approach. These topics is coming directly
from this is like us. In stuff off of Deborah lip.
We love Deb. I assume we'll talk about Deb in
future episodes, we're just going to call her death now, but
Deborah lips book. That is 20 years old this year.
Congratulations Kudos called called the elements of ritual in
this book. She approaches different topics
using the actual elements as inspiration.
So as we go through, Four sections will look at the four
elements air fire water and Earth as we approach.
Each of those topics, we will make a certain connection of
information for are going to go over the maybe book knowledge,
things that are very quote-unquote factual because
some of these things are going to not be factual or be
debatable but let's say the knowledge part of the
information then we're going to get into the fire aspects which
would be the To call pieces of behaviors that you could
associate with said topics. So in episode 2, for instance,
when we started with part one of worshiping the gods, we talked
about the information of how to connect with gods and what gods
are and create definitions. And then we talked about how to
actually take action and how to make those connections, how to
create ritual, how to do things like raising and offerings and
ritual, things like that. So in this episode were actually
going to pick up with water and Earth for me, the association of
water is often the ancestral part.
So this is going to for us, where to use this as like a
history section. And then we're also going to
talk about how we personally feel about the topics of some of
our personal experiences but more.
So on the And how those things impact our lives from the feels
side and then we're gonna get into what we call the Earth
section and this is how we integrate this information
overall on a daily basis. But also as we integrate this
information, what are the challenges that come up?
So we're going to if you will bring it down to earth.
So we're going to talk about maybe some like what are the
problematic aspects? Of God worship that we're going
to run into. So yeah.
So that's kind of the zoomed out approach is we're going to go
through air fire, water and Earth in future topics as a way
of guiding the conversation. And in today's conversation,
we're going to specifically be focusing on the water and the
Earth's ready to get muddy love it as we should, you know, I
mean, let's get a little messy but before we get too far into
that, we also thought it'd be nice.
Just to give you guys kind of an update on what's going on with
us. Also, in that same framework
from the air, the fire, the water, the Earth aspects.
So okay, tell me. What would you up to?
Which up to I heard that which up to?
Yeah like yeah I'm catching what you're thrown a good pun.
You know, is really a magical thing when you said the air, the
fire, the water, the Earth. I totally had that.
Chant Ranger my head, right? Anyways.
So I guess if I were to sum up some of the are associated
things that I've been up to. So we're going to talk about
like kind of like what classes or workshops or books.
Yesterday actually this would have been Saturday.
I don't know what is time. The 29th of April I took in
astrology class and I took it with a Local astrologer local to
me and it was how to read your natal chart and so this was very
much like a introductory begin our level class which made me
feel really smart, but I still absolutely pick some stuff up.
I shared that with you Danny. But the thing that I really
clicked for me is in my local area, I'm lucky enough to have a
No somewhat thriving astrological community and this
person was a person of color. So I felt really good because I
often don't see that representation in media of yeah,
people of color into astrology. Something like, you know, white
lady town so that was, that was really great and but then also
just being able to support local astrologers.
I Previously had you know a patreon subscription with a
couple of astrologers that you know are not local to me and
I've stopped with those to try to, you know, keep it local and
so yeah. So I was really excited to be
able to connect with my local community.
So fun. And what about you?
What do you mean? Oh yes.
Okay, who put your reading? I need to know what you reading.
Well, when you say reading, we're also we also mean /
listening, right? Yeah.
What happens? That those are the same thing.
Yeah, yeah. I was excited.
I finally started the it had maybe three months ago was
published. I'd have to look at the
publicity but it's a The newest book from Jason Mackey, main key
and Estrella Taylor. And it's the the book title is
the modern witchcraft with the Greek gods, history, insights,
and magical practice. And yeah, I'm really excited
about this book. As we talked about in previous
episodes, my Patron Hestia is Greek.
And so this was what sparked my interest other than really
liking Jason's, right? Soil, I haven't read anything by
Estrella something. I'm really interested to get
into her writing style, but I was really excited because I was
able to find a bookstore that carried this books that I could
actually order from. So I always listen to things on
Audible, but I was happy to also purchase the paperback cover.
I want to just give a shout out to Sandman bookstore.
It's in South Florida, but they have very fair prices and
They're very quick with deliveries.
So I was happy to finally be able to Source a independent
bookstore and family-owned. Yeah.
They definitely focused or I
know it's it's what only five hours away from you.
So I don't think I'll be able to go there in person, but I was
stalking their Instagram. And yeah, very happy to be able
to support that storm Sandman bookstore.
Nice. Nice.
What are you reading? What are you doing?
So, kind of still in this exploration right of like
Appalachian folk magic and what do I know?
And what's out there and why are things very different in
different parts of Appalachia? And so I'm currently reading
doctoring, the devil notebooks of an Appalachian conjure Man by
Jake Richards, so he is based out of Tennessee and Tennessee
Appalachian Folk. Magic is very different.
I'm finding than like Virginian Appalachian folk magic.
So just really, really enjoying like kind of the melding of
those two ideas. I think you and I had talked
before about how, like even just things like sweeping someone's
feet like in one part of the country that might mean they
never get married but another part of that country it might be
what you do when you get married is to jump over the broom and
but there are still those aspects of where the broom is
still related to marriage. And so somehow like we haven't
lost that thread. Just the meanings of kind of
changed with. Time and place.
So that's kind of what I'm digging into.
Still is just trying to build out this idea of like where did
these things come from? Why do they exist?
Why have they changed from, maybe what I've known or what
other people have known and just kind of digging into that.
So that sounds fascinating. I know you were struggling to
find books specifically on this topic because it there were a
few that came to mind. Was this one of those that you
had to kind of search? There was this one that you were
familiar with. This was one.
I was able to find fairly easily through like the bibliographies
of other books, which is kind of how I've been piecing these
things together is like, I'll read a book and I'm like, wow, I
really like this books and I look at the books, they
reference and then find their sources and then so that's kind
of how I'm kind of digging through it but it just it's
really interesting because I feel like we're all talking
about the same topic, right? Like Appalachian folk Magic.
But we're talking talking about it in segmented, parts of the
country and and segmented parts of where we're from.
And so, there really isn't like a body of work that like, digs
into all of these things at the same time or that kind of digs
into why it might have been this way here and this way there, but
there's still this common theme between these two beliefs.
So, it's been really interesting to read like things that are
directly conflict with each other.
Like some will be like, well this directly came.
You know, Christian belief systems and then something else
would be like, know this came over from Africa and then
transferred into Christian belief systems through the, like
assimilation of enslaved, people to Christianity.
And so it's just interesting trying to like PCS things
together and figure out like okay, our is either one of these
things, true one and then also like, where is the actual truth
because usually it's somewhere between those two points of view
and sometimes A little bit of both.
Like both things could be sort of right but where are the facts
in that? So that's so cool that awesome.
All right so if we were catching up on fire topics in our which
up to that we need like a song. Like a did.
I don't know which app to. I don't know.
Okay yeah II like that. That was like Mario is that?
So I'm planning a trip to New Orleans, not next week but the
week after I have two weeks off from work which I'm thrilled
about, I don't like Endeavor. Yeah, I'm like it's been years
since I had two weeks off. That wasn't around the winter
holidays. So I'm taking a week to stay
Kate and get on my roof and seal my roof areas.
But then The following weekend to go to New Orleans.
So I've been nerding out about all of the culinary options and
trying to explore. The runs have been there one
time before. But potentially my partner and I
are going to have our wedding ceremony there if it all makes
sense or kind of going on a scouting trip.
So yeah, how about you would any any items in the fire?
I am just living vicariously through you.
That's what I'm doing. I love that.
You're doing all of The traveling.
I'm very excited for all of the foods.
I'm going to live vicariously through you with all the things
I cannot eat. I'm definitely good on our on
our instead. I have to share the gumbo and
all of the cage that I can salivate with everyone else.
Please, thank you. Well, I eat a salad made by me.
That's not even going to be very good.
So for me, we just opened my first homemade wine bottle and
drank it and I know. And I'd you know, I'm saying no
botulism, so killed it. It was that was the threshold,
it was amazing, how it was very impressive.
Honestly, I was like, okay with taking the botulism, you know,
if it meant supporting you and your craft, I know that.
It was, it was really lovely to open up.
Homemade wine that has been aged a year to celebrate motive with
you. That was so beautiful, so
excited and then kind of, you know consistency.
It's a big theme of my life consistency in balance and so
kind of keeping with that same theme of like doing something
for each Sabbat. I'm going to continue making a
wine for each Sabbat. We're about to make a rose petal
one. I'm very excited about this rose
wine, but I'm also going to start Fragrant oils that go with
each Sabbath so that I have like a small vial of oil to kind of
go with that for ritualistic purposes and so just keeping
with that theme you know of like building ritual literally
building it throughout the year. So that's kind of what I've got
going on actions why so that that I love that.
Let's transition to maybe the water aspects of which up to.
So tell me how you're feeling. What?
What's going on with you? But well, I haven't your life.
I had a surprise party for my partner and it was a surprise
housewarming party, which was the best gift ever because he
didn't have to do any of the preparation which was really
probably his favorite gift the whole part, but it was the first
time, you know, since it pandemic that I've had like been
indoors around, a lot of people I've been, you know, I have a
healthcare background. So I've been super safe in all
aspects. And so this was the first time
that I would say that I was taking risky actions, having 20
people in my house although I know that the risk is less now
but it's still very much a risk and you know, I got sick in for
it so I paid the price but it was super appropriate because
we're having it slip season. And if you're you know I think
Probably being on the couch sick was probably more productive
than being at work during Eclipse season.
I think that was actually a blessing, you're like, cause and
effect. However, the effects were in my
favor sort of. So yes.
Yes, I'm glad to not have the challenge of work during Eclipse
season but yeah, how are you feeling?
You've been busy. Oh my gosh.
Listen yeah I think professionally Right now, I
always hit this like stride. It's been like a constant thing
in my life. Probably for the past.
Like five years. We're like March to August is a
freaking train wreck. I don't know, I don't know what
everybody's doing march to August.
I guess it's like start a fiscal year, I don't know.
Everybody loses their absolute mind from March until August,
and then in August, everyone is suddenly like comes to Clarity
and it's like, wow, this is not a sustainable level of energy
that we're putting out. We should probably like get it
together before the holidays. And so pretty much from now, to
all August is just going to be crazy for me, work-wise.
It's also like height of sports season with the kids.
So just just trying to like hang on, you know.
I mean just trying to you're doing on the August, you're
doing this damn thing, I'm so impressed.
Yes II that's really interesting and I and it's always been that
way. Huh?
For like the last few like the past five years?
Yeah. Like a recent hits and it's like
Just all what is wrong with these people?
Their energies are just crazy. I say that as a cancer directly
in the middle of this time. Yeah, I don't know, I don't
know. Man, this all over the place,
everybody, if you casually personally.
Yeah, oh yeah, I always told people, I always tell people I'm
like, March 2, march to August. It's really like July once I hit
August 1st, Life starts to get back in line, but I always tell
people March to July, just don't don't count on doing anything.
Thing extra don't play in nothing.
It's going to get ruined. Just we're just, we're just
keeping the wheels going every day.
That's all we good. Well, that lets into how do we
catch up with each other and Earth inspiration?
I guess we could talk about practical challenges.
Like what's been kind of challenging your life or maybe
what have you purchased recently that you are really excited
about I have. Yeah, I have You're just being a
bunch of Health stuff and I feel great about it but I also felt
completely overwhelmed. I'm a new homeowner for the
first time and of course I want to do everything happened once
but yeah. So I've been challenged with I
did this thing I made a I got a big cork board and I wrote down
all of my projects that I have for my house because I felt like
they were just all in my head just like mom wanting attention.
And so it was so cathartic to to write down all the different
projects and then like be able to stand back and look at them
and say like okay we're going to take one thing at a time.
Going to prioritize this or that it was so good.
It was so good. But yeah that the house has been
challenging for me. Yeah, the organizational part of
my heart just loved all of that. That that is how I live my whole
life is I'm like write it all down.
Map it out. Prioritize it make it happen.
You know what I mean? Yes, yeah, but yeah, for me,
please. Yeah, it's well, it's all about
again balancing that like main theme in my life and it's all
about like creating that Harmony, right?
So, when I feel really stressed out and like, overwhelmed with
like work and pertussis, also, like trying to balance that out
with like, okay, but I need to add some like things that feed
my my spirit right in there. So, I've just been kind of
trying to like delve into things that like are important to me
and really keep the main things. The main things to not to get so
lost and like, work stuff, and schedules and making The
appointments and like, doing stuff that I like lose sight of,
like the things that actually feed my happiness.
So one of those things is that I have been purchasing a lot of
witchy house. De Corey thinks sort of, also,
like practical things, because I'm a functional design lover.
And so, my husband has finally gotten on board with, like,
listen, this whole ancestor altar.
It's a family one. It is not going anywhere.
I've left you spaces and they will continue to sit empty until
you put your shit. There.
And so he finally has like put his pictures of his mom and put
pictures of his grandparents up there.
And so I've been like purchasing Plants and Things that like go
along with it. I'll hold on.
Can you see it? Can you see?
Oh yeah thanks, right. He's got his, he's got his
little pictures up there, right? And there's this, this little
trinket that belonged to his mom is up there.
And so, I've purchased some planters to go up there and then
plants to go with them because part of my Ancestor altar is
like keeping something alive for the dead that's part of like my
my process. It's my veneration is to like
poor love and energy into something that is for them or
like a representation of caring for them.
So don't do that unless you at all of that, don't do that
unless you have a green thumb, right?
Because it's a lot of pressure. Listen okay so you know how I
keep telling my papa on raise hell, right?
His plan is the We won, that's died.
And I'm like, say less, say less.
I will get you something that cannot die.
I will, I will get you something that literally doesn't die.
Like, we can keep playing this game.
You can keep putting your candle out, you can keep wasting all
your water. I'm going to continue to refill
it and keep lighting it, so you can get on board or you can get
off. I just hello.
I love my kite. You squabbling with your spirit
of your papa. I'm just I'm so here for it.
I just love that. Well, Modulations on the on
getting mr. Danny to participate.
I think you. Yeah, you're winning.
I am winning this which war I mean he isn't a villain which
were but I'm winning it. Okay, slowly, what?
You're firing her entire house and so many ways that he doesn't
even understand. And that's fine.
Yeah. I It's hard to contain it.
That's for sure, that's for sure.
That's what I was gonna say. Do you experience that with your
partner? Where you're like, where is that
boundary between me making the house.
Yeah. All about my beliefs and sharing
that space. Absolutely.
I think we could probably get into a longer conversation about
that. I think it's The whole home
alter expansion. Takeover happens, quite easily.
I'm really lucky in that. I have a whole ritual room, so
because of that, I feel as if I have to confine all of these
things to this room which I'm totally okay with.
I think it's like concentrating them not confining them.
That's what I'm telling myself, right?
Yeah, but yeah, I mean I'm pretty.
I'm pretty respectful. Awful.
Because I have a whole room, so I can be, if it wasn't that
case, then that would be a different story.
I do have like a broom in every room.
I didn't mean to make that, right?
And I do have a mirror in every room, like those are too kind
of, but that's, you know, that can also have very mundane
purposes. So I try to balance it.
I mean, right? Yeah.
I'm not saying it's like, I have all these like subtle.
Surround the house. Where like if you paid enough
attention to it it would mean something.
But for the rest of the world, they're just like okay cool.
It's definitely on legume. Wooden splints are like, what is
what is that black broom behind you?
I'm like oh what? Oh, that's yeah.
I picked it up on a trip to somewhere.
I don't. Yeah.
Anyways, moving on next next time.
Know that that's a challenge. Yeah.
Yeah, that balance with your partner and how to maintain, you
know, you're home. Um in the way that you want to
but also make space for them. Yeah especially when you have
multiple partners. Why did we sign up for that now?
I'm just kidding. I love them.
Dearly yes. Alright great well thanks for
catching up on our yeah. What's up to what you doing?
Which end to that we really need like a really like bomb theme
song right there. Okay.
And I keep going back to them, that doesn't end in Menna.
I feel like that's gonna have to be it.
Okay. All right.
That could be the info.
I'm here for it. All right.
Well, let's let's transition into today's larger topic which
is our kind of resolution part 2 of worshiping the gods.
As we said, we're to get into kind of the water aspects and
the Earth aspect. So, starting with the water want
to kind of dive in a little bit of history about God's, which is
kind of a large topic, but But some things I think I could
probably address which would be, you know, what are some of the
first recorded gods and deities and really the issue with
history is that we only know about cultures and belief
systems through artifacts and through writings, right?
So the first in my research in inanna is really the first.
Kind of like Sumerian Goddess that we have evidence of during
like Before common error and 4000 to 3000 100 in that era.
We would see inanna as a Sumerian goddess, show up in
text. But before that, I mean, even in
prehistoric. Religions, it's hard for us to
really know, because that's what 99% of human history is.
Meaning that humans have existed long before words, and we do See
some evidence of god and goddess veneration.
I'm gonna butcher this pronunciation but Venus of Lhasa
is a statue and you will know it.
When I say it, the very voluptuous nude woman.
It's in Limestone, it's a bass relief, it's about 18 inches
high. And this is a figure that holds
a bison horn. Its could have also been a
cornucopia hard to say in one hand and it had 13.
Chess and it, which is often thought to represent moon
cycles. So that's very interesting.
And it had large breasts and a great stomach and wide hips.
And so this was thought to be proof of goddess worship.
But who knows, right? Like, we are only seeing
evidence of this specific statue is 25,000 years old but who
knows if this was just a really hot selfie or A representation
of a goddess. I would assume based on the how
difficult it would be to make art when you don't have any of
these basic necessities covered like a refrigerator full of
food. Probably wouldn't.
Just make a piece of art, you probably would spend time making
a depiction of your daddy. So that's what we often look to
as like some of the first proof of god and goddess worship.
You can deep dive. Yeah, first.
And then kind of, you know why did humans create Gods?
Like what would be the reason to create something less physical
right in this very physical world that we live in.
What is the the motivation to create gods?
And and something that is not physically tangible and it's
really one of those things where it's the intermediate between
the divine, right? So as we come Kind of move from
this hunter-gatherer Society worried about keeping ourselves
fed, keeping ourselves safe from predators all of that into a
more Agricultural Society. We really needed to create
Collective rules for cooperation, right?
We needed to create a society in which we were all working toward
a common goal, and focus. And so I think, you know, some
of that comes from needing to create societal constructs.
So needing to create one deity or one group.
Belief so that we can all kind of fall in line with those norms
and then you have a great article that will link in the
show notes, but that kind of talks about this need to create
like an entity bigger than ourselves that kind of guides
our behavior and guides. Our actions one that we can kind
of give control to when things feel very out of control.
So we're not in control of the wet season and whether or not we
get rain for the crops and whether or not there is drought
or famine being able to have this intermediary to act on our
behalf to help resolve. Those issues is both very
important with keeping an Agricultural Society but also
with keeping people kind of focus on that common goal.
Yeah well said love that. I want to also draw some
connections here. So like why do I mean?
I believe and I think we talked about this before.
If I can speak on your behalf, we believe that God's our human
construct, you know, we would not be without the guy.
Gods, but the gods would also not be without us kind of idea.
So, if historically, we're looking at, you know,
systemically why do Why is it that, you know, potentially
pagans or wiccans, any organization?
That is not monotheistic. You know, why do they worship
and how different are they in comparison to monotheistic
religions? I think that generally people
have this point of view that oh I practiced Witchcraft and I'm
polytheistic. Therefore I'm not religious and
there are so many similarities right between the Oceans of why
we acknowledge and venerate and give worship to God's both from
a Christian point of view. And from a pagan point of view
monotheistic point of view and also polytheistic point of view.
So I want to draw some of those connections, right?
So in our dominant religion in North America here,
Christianity, they have some basic ideas of you know, why to
Protection being one of them, of course, you want to worship a
God because ultimately what's going to happen when you die,
you want to be able to go to heaven as Christians believe.
And so it in order to save your Eternal Soul, you want to be in
relationship with God and do as God wants you to.
They also, you know, would potentially be concerned about
God's Wrath, you know, in the Bible, we would see Cities
turned to Salt because there was lack of worship of God, which
they might also see. The reason that they would be
motivated to worship God as being protected from the devil,
right? So overall, if we zoomed out,
that's really about protection, right?
So, that'd be one reason why Christians would worship Gods.
Another reason would be to receive the blessings of God.
And if I were to boil that down, really, it's about manifest.
Shouldn't have desires. So we have protection.
We have manifestation of desires.
The other thing that often Christians point to, as reason
to worship God is that God will critical give them strength.
You know, I came from a very Christian background and so both
my mother and my grandmother recovered from alcoholism
through Jesus has strengths. And so zooming out the
motivations to worship gods or worship.
A God in the Christian point of view is protection manifestation
and ability, and I think we could probably draw some through
lines even to a Wiccan point of view or a polytheistic point of
view. And then from, you know a would
just point of view from the point of view of somebody who
kind of has a polytheistic view, the gods are really an energy
source to that we can draw upon that we can work with in order
to achieve a lot of the same things really.
So we're talking about land Spirits, Elementals kind of
egregores ancestors deity, all of that and so for protection,
we're talking about things like from Our beings other people
from energies outside of ourselves.
So whether we're talking about, like, whether and a bad storm
coming or things like that, we're still seeking protection
by manipulating that energy from a witch's perspective
manifestation. So, we're talking about our
desires more in the physical sense.
So when you come from a Christian point of view or, you
know, you could be praying and that is a physical act of
praying for desires. Testing that and very similar
things happen, you know, from a witch's perspective, whether
that's creation of a spell creation for a jewel, even
prayers. I mean, there, there are witches
who participate in that kind of praying chanting.
You know, they're all like one in the same, you know, and then
ability. So we're working on and
developing these skills of divination of mental faculties
of the the ability to kind of see through things.
See them less through the lens of like the physical and more
through the lens of intuition, physical strength, healing,
right, healing and protection over those that we care about
and ourselves as well as our own self control.
A big part of, this is kind of the loss of ego or that at least
the management of ego and, and trying to kind of to hone your
intuition and not have it kind of be Blindsided by all of the
other worldly things, you know that are going on.
Yeah, I mean, so both from, you know, even if we were to compare
Christianity and, and even like a Wiccan point of view, these
are essentially doing a lot of the same things, I mean, yeah.
We're all talking about perfection, Perfection.
We're all, I was 14. We're all talking about this
accident manifestation and, you know, receiving some type of
abilities in that way. And Yeah, so it's interesting
that often we see ourselves as so different, but if we break it
down into the motivations, they're quite similar.
But just to kind of wrap up the water portion of this segment on
God worship, I would say overall, like, if I were to zoom
out I worship Gods because I find comfort and believing in
Divine Consciousness greater than my own.
And personally, my theory my belief is that there is a
collective Consciousness, that's greater than all things that is
removed from humans and we couldn't possibly really
interact with and so I believe that humans.
Desire and humans inevitably, we always come to the realization
that we need gods. And I believe that humans
created gods and I believe that we continue to feed these
energies with our thoughts and our prayers, and our veneration,
and even discussions like this. And by doing so, we make them
powerful and they serve as a tenement intermediary between
this Collective Consciousness. And so, as we Empower them, they
empower So if I had to be really succinct with my belief around,
God's existence. Now, this is, of course, not my
belief around, you know, what happens after you die, or how is
the World created. But just when I approach the
topic of God's, that's yeah, those are my feelings.
I feel pretty comforted by that idea.
How about you Danny? And you zoomed out and I'm gonna
Zoom real in so that that relationship for me, right
relationships. A big part of Probably my cancer
son. It's just kind of focusing on
relationships and kind of the the said and unsaid between two
entities. And so for me that connection
should be mutually beneficial not necessarily transactional in
nature but released mutually beneficial.
And so I think relationship with Didi should feel like kind of
sharing the strength of each other and building camaraderie.
If at any point that relationship kind of feels like,
it's becoming one sided and Leave.
It feels like that relationship is becoming negative in the
sense of the effort you've put in the money.
You've spent the time that's invested, then it's probably
time to pump the brakes, the energy that you invest should be
given positively and like Oak said that Collective
Consciousness. Empowers.
The God. So if your investment isn't
being given freely and with positive intent, I would say
that it's probably negatively impacting the both of you.
So my kind of view on gods and God worship.
It is really that you're creating a relationship.
You are again. Kind of following that thought
through of dating, the gods you're creating this
relationship and it should feel like something that is
comforting. It should feel like something
that is beneficial to both of you.
Yeah. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing that. Alright so let's transition into
this kind of like Earth approach to the topic.
So I'm talking about the like everyday challenges as we
integrate this information and kind of debating through some of
the potentially problematic things as we consider.
God's in general. So as an example here, one
challenge. As you start to approach deity,
you could find yourself potentially being Maybe letdown
maybe not feeling that like, intense, mystical connection
that other people are describing.
I think I have definitely felt this and I don't know Danny have
you felt this before? Like wait, maybe the gods aren't
talking to me, maybe they're not into me, or maybe the state is.
Now, I don't think maybe, you know, as a which I think it for
sure. In the younger years of my life,
I had, you know, my mom was very much like a not super religious.
Sin, but was very open to like, you should have seen and
experienced lots of different religious, and religious ideals,
and kind of going to many different services and kind of
being like, I don't, I'm not feeling it, I'm just not feeling
what everybody's feeling, I don't know.
Is it me? Am I the problem?
And so I, you know, I think when I came into witchcraft, I didn't
I didn't come into this with the idea of deity worship.
I really came into this as like a experiential.
Practice, not necessarily a religion at first and so I I
don't think I set up that expectation which I think is one
of those things that we'll talk about is I didn't set that
expectation of like, needing to have a religious experience, but
I definitely have experience that let down through the lens
of other religions and being like, I don't know what's going
on. And I don't, I'm not feeling the
same energy, the people around me seemed to be feeling.
Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know for, for
me, I definitely approached witchcraft from a religious
point of view knowing that that was a whole my life that I
wanted to find connection through.
But also, I mean, I approached witchcraft from personal
empowerment and a way of bringing magic into my everyday
right in that kind of connection.
But yeah, I think initially, I didn't necessarily seek that
shal relationship because I assumed that that was going to
require some time to to create relationship right away.
I very much can see how Transactional, the connection
and relationship with a God can get.
And so I very much was resistant against it feeling like that.
And so for me I realized that I wasn't going to be able to have
that initial mystical connection until I put time and effort into
making that connection. But overall I mean I think if
you're not feeling the woowoo of the deity that you are
connecting with, Generally. It's, you know, one of a couple
of things I would point to number one would be, you know,
as you said maybe the connect the expectation that you have is
too high. Maybe people have described it
in a way that you wouldn't experience if any like, we're
all different, right? Even when it comes to like, if I
made the connection to the like player of what the players write
this, like super sense of Clairvoyance clairaudience and
not everybody has that same psychic.
In intuition. Some people could hear messages
some people psychically, right? Some people could feel messages
and people could see things smell things taste things,
right? And so why would it not be any
different with the gods, right? Just because someone else has
and a static feeling, doesn't mean that that's what you're
going to feel. Maybe it's going to come through
dreams, maybe it's going to come through signs and signals.
Maybe it's going to come as you do additional research, but
Generally think managing expectations and not expecting
your experience to be the same as others is a big one and then
also like don't rush it, it's going to take time for
relationship to develop. And I think the final thing is
like When in doubt, turn to tools of divination to channel
messages, I think that that is quite useful in getting signals,
right? So, just ideas here that you did
that. Yeah.
If you're not, if you're not feeling it, maybe maybe think
about some of those topics. Yeah, I know that was a really
succinct way to kind of wrap up. You know, how often do we hear?
Someone say like, oh yeah, I just like gravitated towards
this. Like for instance, you, with
astrology, super jealous. Get it, not good at math, love
it. I think it's amazing.
Just it's just doesn't speak to me.
But I if I went into it with that expectation that I'm going
to be just as good as it. Yeah, as you are, I would be a
just continuously let down. It's just not where my strengths
lie. Still think it's super
interesting. Still want to hear all about it,
but it's just not where my strengths lie.
So again, if you're not having that same experience, it doesn't
mean necessarily there's anything wrong with you, or with
that connection or that relationship that you're
building. It may be that you need to
manage those expectations. It might not be the same as what
everyone else is describing and then we want to talk about how
do you know if it's working? You know, how do you know that,
like the gods have sent this image of the crow to you?
When is it delusion versus when it is, it reality and kind of
that that very blurry line of, you know, when is it may be a
mental health issue. You know, if you are having
hallucinations of the Gods every day, I would say it's probably
time that to seek professional help and I don't say that.
Lately, I say that coming from a family of someone who was who
was a and is severely, mentally ill, and was also a practicing
witch. And so somewhere in there, those
lines became very blurred. And so, this is where I would
say, how do you know if something is what you think it
is. And I think, usually, those
signs that an oak. Definitely, give us your
personal experience, but usually, those signs are a lot
more clear. If you are questioning, whether
something is a message from the guy, God's.
It probably isn't. Usually those signs are like, oh
okay, I got it. I hear you.
I could see you. I see what you're doing here.
If you're questioning it it's probably not, right?
So you need to know when to call a crow Crow and kind of go on
about your day and then there's also you know it's very
subjective so who really knows you know you and I may see the
same crow in the tree and for me it's just a crow.
In a tree because I don't have any reference point for that.
It doesn't mean something distinctly to me, where you
might see it. And be like, oh, this this
really means something to me. And so it really is about that
level of discernment. But I would say, what point, you
kind of feel like it's happening all of the time, and it's
constant, and it's pervasive in your life.
That's where I would question your judgment on those things.
So how to know if it's working? I think is really trusting your
gut about these things and then also knowing when to maybe not
trust your gut. So when is your perception, may
be been diluted some because of what's going on in your life
because of your own emotions because of significant
biological factors. Right?
Of what might be going on with your brain chemistry and things
like that? Yeah, I have a number of friends
who are who struggle with different Current challenges
mentally and and who can suffer from delusions.
And I think a lot about, you know, if I was in their shoes,
how where would I draw the line between deity Andalusia?
And I think, you know, I'm not sure if it matters so long as
it's serving you for the good, of course.
There's, I would say, I don't know, I just hate these that the
like feedback like when, you know, you know I'm like I don't
know that that's the case, right?
I think like a lot of people don't know, and then they think
there's something wrong with them.
And then, so, I don't know if that's the case.
I mean, I shared an example with, with our group last night
and circle, and there's often this like, point where you're
asking for clarity from deity. Like, if you're trying to give
me the sign, confirm it in these ways, and you can't just keep
doing that over and over again, right?
Right. However, Were, you know, in the
first episode on this topic, episode 2, season one, I talked
about being clear with your daddy around how you will
interpret their signs and like creating a relationship that
says hey and I anytime I see this symbol or this sign, I'm
going to know that that's from you, right?
So for me with Hestia, it's you know, connected with the number
four. And so for me it's really easy
if I'm having like Everyday, I just happened to look at the
clock when it's 444 and I haven't looked at the clock all
day while it's like okay, yep, heard hey, what's up?
Hey, it's our time. So I think in order to know if a
symbol is meant for you, it's often easy assist.
If you go in with like hey here's the things that will
confirm to me. That this is a message for me
that's like it's usually easier on the front end to clarify what
a message is then to try to. Interpret on the back end.
That's what I have found. I've often not, I would say, a
very intuitive person naturally. I'm pretty practical and
logical. And but, yeah, if I, you know,
struggled with delusion, I think it would be much more difficult
for me to draw the line between those things.
And so, if you're either struggling with question
yourself all the time or potentially struggling, with
finding the line between reality and illusion, maybe having an
agreement with the entity, whether that's Any energy,
right? Whether it's a land Spirit or an
ancestor or a deity to say hey communicate with me in this way
and that way I'll know for sure. I think that could be helpful.
Yeah. Right.
Setting setting parameter setting expectations.
Really everywhere in life is very important, right?
Is is kind of, you know, this is what I expect in.
This is what I want to get out of it and this is why I'd like
it to look like. Because when you don't set those
expectations, you're really only setting yourself up for one or
two things and that's one to be let down because maybe you don't
Variants, any of those things or two, everything means something.
And then now you spend all day kind of trying to decide between
like conflicting messages. And because if everything is
important, that nothing is important, right?
So it is one of those things that it is so subjective, and it
is so person to person. And so I think that's a great
point about like just setting expectations for like this is
how I want to receive. Sieve messaging or this is, what
is going to catch my attention and mean something to me so that
you're not kind of in this in-between of like is that you
is that you is that, are we talking or is this, or is that
really just a crow or a feather or you know those those tangible
things in the real world? And then we have an item here
about is it problematic to share our beliefs of the Gods, right?
Where is that line between sharing belief and impressing
belief upon other people? And I, for me, I think it really
depends on intention. So my intention and sharing my
experience is to offer my logic and my experience as a point of
consideration just as something to put out there for people to
be like, oh, maybe I haven't. Heard of that before or seen
that before, or known about that before my, I have no investment
in the outcome of that conversation.
Or if that experience, I have no reason to, like, draw people
into, please celebrate my DD, with me, I'm not trying to
create a cult and that trying to create a religion.
I just want to share this information because part of it
also is feeding that egregore, right?
And so as I talked about, About the gods.
That is also part of the veneration piece of it.
So for me, that, that line is in intention.
Now that is not to say intention versus impact, right?
I can go in with the best intentions, but if the impact is
that, I unintentionally created a cult, that's on me, that's on
me. Yeah, but for me, you know, I'm
not going into it, trying to Evangelize people I think yeah
that's a point that was really interesting to me as a point of
contrast to let's say you know modern Christianity in America
that like the evangelizing isn't actually is actually frowned on
within specifically like Wiccan spaces.
We very much don't want to influence people's Free Will and
we very much are Trying to attract Seekers rather than, you
know, project our ideas on people and we're not trying to
recruit anybody. However, when I talk about
Hestia like, I would love it. If other people would also look
into be curious about and want to worship St.
Of course, right? Like I can't help but be excited
when other people, you know, honor the god that I honor, but
at the same time, I'm not trying to recruit anybody because of
that intention. I don't want to change,
someone's, someone's will write. I want the gods to compel you
rather than me. So evangelizing and
proselytizing, you know, it's certainly something that's
really frowned on in witchcraft communities.
That whole but also specifically within the Wiccan religion,
Another term here that I think is probably worth connecting on
is indoctrination. So, you know, I don't have any
children, so I can't really speak to this.
But the idea that if I had kids and they were growing up in a
pagan polytheistic environment, would I not intentionally or
otherwise? Potentially indoctrinate them
into my belief system, and I think that we all run the the
risk of doing that at all points, whether you know,
whatever religion we are, if you grew up around it, it's going to
be Familiar of course, but I'd be interested.
Kind of like Indiana, you sharing your.
You've talked to me about this in the past, but you know, how
do you balance that idea of influencing?
Or maybe educating but not actually trying to control or
limit your children's will around these types of topics.
It's definitely this fine line. Right.
Just like we talked about blurring of the lines earlier
and again it goes back to that intention, right?
So when I'm sharing parts of my practice, it's not coming from a
place of like, this is how we do things in.
This is all that's allowed in our household.
I think, where we start limiting Free Will is where we start to
get into these problematic parts of a Doctrine ization.
So, I have really strong feelings around things like
Baptism or like not from the aspect of like protection over
this child from my belief system, but the idea that you
are making someone part of a religion or putting them into
their religion without their consent, I think consent is a
huge part of Free Will and to ignore one is to negate the
other. And so for me, when I am
explaining, you know what I do, Always try to give the balance,
right? And so when my daughter comes to
me with questions about Christian beliefs and things
like that, we talked about the give and take of those things,
right? Why do they believe this?
And why do I maybe not agree with that but I always put like
the decision-making in her hands and I always say, you know, this
is what I think but I encourage you to learn more about that.
I encourage you to challenge those thoughts.
I Courage you to speak to other people about their belief
systems and to understand where that comes from.
I, she has a friend at school whose parents only wanted her to
have Christian friends, which kind of flies in the face of my
daughter who is not a Christian and what openly say that you
know, they did a holiday thing at school and she did you'll
because it's what we celebrate at our house and I think her
parents heard about that and they're like, well, we don't, we
only want you to have Christian friends.
And what I said to her was, You have to understand that
someone's faith has to be fragile, their own belief system
has to be very fragile to believe that to just hear the
opinions of other people is so tantalizing, and is so
potentially Faith breaking that they want to Bar you from having
friends that are like that, right?
That's where we're crossing. That line of Free Will where my
faith is mine alone. Own.
And I want her faith. Her belief, her spirituality to
be hers alone and so I encouraged her to really ask
questions, you know, I'll explain everything that I'm
doing age appropriately to a point but I do encourage her to
also know that this is what works for me.
And this won't necessarily be something that works for
everybody and to kind of reach out and learn things and
experience different things because my way is not the only
way. There's that just said, Mom.
Oh my God. I know, I try, I try so hard but
but also, you know, this is a, for lack of a better term of
pagan and, or potentially non-religious household.
You know, my spouse is not religious in any sense of the
word and so I think she comes from this world of like your
belief is your own. It doesn't belong to either of
us and therefore we don't instill it in our Children.
We express our beliefs. We talk about our thoughts and
our beliefs but we don't impress it upon them.
Yeah, thanks for sharing that very very cool.
Yeah so much different than how I grew up.
Okay so I think we saved maybe the Spy keas juiciest hot takes
for last year. Okay, so there is I in the last
couple years. Years.
There's been a very productive conversation, in my opinion,
around, Daddy and gods and the topic of appropriation, right?
And so looking at The idea that potentially not all gods are
available to you and what that means, I think you will hear in
every modern book podcasts popular opinion that you have to
be very careful around appropriation.
And when it comes to clothes practices, right?
I think that's like the known point of view which is is, if
you are not of that culture, then you cannot just access
those Gods because you want to I don't know if you expand on that
at all Danny. Yeah, yeah.
So I think it's important that when we're having these
conversations that we acknowledge that just because
you want to do something does not mean, it gives you freedom
to do it without one consent, right?
Consent is very important, but to without knowledge.
So I think a lot of times when we're talking about a cultural
appropriation or misappropriation it a lot of Is
coming from a place of, I just want to do what I want and to
hell with the culture and the beliefs, and the practices that
came before me and honoring those.
And that's where we get into some really just
inappropriateness, just just really harmful things.
And so, when we're talking from closed practice, you can't just
decide to initiate yourself into a closed practice.
If you are drawn to certain deities, T.
If they are very important to you, then go through the right
channels, right? Go and find Priestess
priestesses of that. How would you define?
I mean, just for purposes here of debate.
How would you define closed practice?
Like what how does someone know if a deity is part of its lowest
practice? Mmm, so I would say initiatory
groups, right? So if you are interested in
something, you should be doing a little bit of research and if
you find that it's an initiative, an initiatory group.
Should be something that is obviously a closed practice.
When we get to things that maybe don't require initiation
outright but are more of a Birthright thing.
There are religious groups where it is by birth.
And that isn't to say that they do not allow anyone who is not
born into that culture, but it does mean that you need to go
through the appropriate channels to reach people of those
cultures and to get essentially their consent and approval.
Now, you and I have had some really Important discussions
about well what if you don't know your culture and how does
reincarnation kind of fit into this and the understanding of
misappropriation. Yeah, I mean so To play pans
Advocate. I don't want to say goodbye to
just provide a contrasting point of view.
Oh and you know everybody does better when they know better but
I'm sure if I was like, you know, a cute little Wiccan lady
practicing witchcraft in the 80s.
I would be so interested in Native American guy.
And goddesses and would totally find it to be exciting to feel
like I could connect with those goddesses right.
Especially because I love all of my white shame and and I think I
could justify that right with this idea that I believe in
reincarnation, so who's to say that in past lives, I wasn't
Native American and maybe that's why my spirit is calling.
Words, you know, this goddess or that got us because of my
previous lives. So if you wanted to justify
appropriation of other cultures, you could use that point of
view. And I think what is it's really
easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater in this
conversation? And to say, like if you're not
of that culture, you cannot access those gods or goddesses
or Daddy's in between, right? And I think what the pendulum of
current Station has come back to is all God's could be
potentially available to you so long as you go through the right
channels and you connect with people of those cultures, I
think also like just to call it out the, the biggest taboos here
when it comes to misappropriation, is when you're
trying to connect with current religions, right?
That our practice by oppressed people, of course.
Yeah. And especially Especially if you
are, if your historical ancestors just by blood
connection, maybe not by reincarnation were the
oppressors right like that. That's usually the biggest issue
here that we're talking about. However, it doesn't mean that it
is never available to you. It's just that you have to show
that respect, I don't know. I just think it's really
interesting. Like reincarnation could be a
justification as to why you're called in a certain direction.
But it doesn't give you the green light to just go ahead and
start connecting directly with those gods or goddesses.
Yeah, it's all about that respect piece, right?
And so, we have to be very, we have to acknowledge that power
imbalance where we eat when we are approaching the religious
and cultural beliefs. Particularly of minorities, from
the perspective of people who have kind of been part of a
culture that just takes takes takes, takes takes To go into
this minority culture. To go into this minority belief
system, and just take what we want.
We have to understand that that is perpetuating history in a
very negative way and understandably people from those
minority, religions, minority cultures, have very strong
feelings about that, right? And are finally at least in a
place in society. Now where we can say like this
was wrong and we should stop doing that.
And so, whenever you're approaching these sensitive
topics and ever you're approaching these Of things it's
really about the respect. And if you are not coming at it
from a respectful place and respect being doing the proper
research going through the right channels doing the things that
you should be doing. If this is something you're
actually interested in, not because you want the cloud or
not because you want to claim indigenous, things are minority
things, but because you actually have a vested interest in it,
and as long as you are doing the things you should be doing,
Doing then you should be doing it in a respectful way but to
just, like, show up and claimed to be a voodoo priest because
you want to be is just inherently problematic.
So again, just approach it with their appropriate level of
respect. Yeah.
And I think There's a lot of fetishizing of exotic - that
leads people to feel cold to certain deities that are outside
of their own culture. And that's something to question
about the attraction to certain deities is like, are you only
attracted to them or potentially is part of your attraction,
because it seems quote-unquote. Or not familiar and that's what
exciting like is there a like, are you being excited?
Because it's not what, you know, and it's novel or you actually
connecting with the culture and what that deity stands for.
So I mean, there's lots of discourse around this topic and
I think that the net new thing I want to point out there is that
there was, I think, especially a few years ago, this huge
pendulum swing of conversation which is like, if you're not of
that culture, you don't get to play with those Gods, right?
And that was a response to the other side of that Spectrum or
the pendulum swing, which is like you can play with anybody,
right? So I think you know, as we
talked about it's probably somewhere in the center.
We're sure you can go ahead. If you have put the effort in,
you've connected with the leaders of that religion, if you
have gone through as you say the right channels.
But this Isn't a net new point. And as I said early, but I think
the point of reincarnation puts an interesting spin on that
because maybe you were in a previous life connected.
And that's why you are being attracted as a point of view.
So yeah. All right.
Well, we have, we've talked Danny.
We are, we did it again. We never shut the fuck up.
It's as if we drank a whole glass of iced coffee before him,
And have been secretly. Gulping off camera and off
microphone because of all the phlegm we have built up doing
said activity. Alright.
Well I think this is probably as good a place as any to wrap it
up. All right so of course so which
is we hope that you have really enjoyed this discourse.
We hope that we have helped kind of connect some dots death.
Really want to hear what other dots you want us to help
connector, or what thoughts, we can help kind of expand upon.
So, please wherever you're listening to this, let us know
what you're thinking. And then also, as always blessed
be witches and be well, I like you