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And welcome everyone to another 
Smart Money Circle episode. 

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I'm Adam Sarhan. 
With me today is Will Fine, 

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who's the founder and CEO at 
Granite shares ETS with over 10 

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billion in assets under 
management. 

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Will thank you so much for 
taking the time and welcome to 

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the Smart Money Circle. 
Thanks Adam. 

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Great to be on the show. 
Thank you for having me. 

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So will I always like to ask, 
can you please tell us your 

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story and how you got to where 
you are today? 

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Yeah. 
So I've been in the ETF business

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almost all of my career, say 
almost because after college I 

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worked in an investment bank as 
my first job out of university. 

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So did that very briefly and 
then ended up working at what's 

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now BlackRock. 
But in those days was Barclays 

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Global Investors and we were 
launching the first ETFs in 

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Europe at that time. 
So I've started my career in 

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London and, you know, stayed 
with the product ever since. 

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So I've been lucky that this 
product, the ETF, the Exchange 

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Traded Fund, has grown into a 
gigantic, you know, global 

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industry. 
But from very humble beginnings,

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you know, we were working on the
first products in the market and

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I've followed that ever since. 
Wow, what a great story. 

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So right place, right time. 
Saw the opportunity, took it and

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ran with it if I understand you 
correctly. 

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No, absolutely. 
And I think at that time, you 

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know, it was nascent, no one had
any, any idea, you know, in 

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terms of how big the industry 
would get. 

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But I knew that this product was
going to be popular. 

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And so you know, after 
BlackRock, I deliberately 

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elected to sort of start my 
entrepreneurial journey and went

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to join a start up that was at 
the time trying to launch the 

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first commodity based ETFs in 
the market. 

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And it was an opportunity that I
thought was was good at the time

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and something that the bigger 
firms, including BlackRock 

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weren't doing. 
And so I joined this company, 

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had equity in in the business 
and it was a great ride. 

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We went from sort of 0 to over 
30 billion at the height and 

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ultimately the company got sold.
So once I started there, you 

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know, eventually made my way to,
to starting my own business, 

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which is Granite Shares, you 
know, a few years later. 

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Wonderful. 
So tell us about your business 

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and everything you do because 
we're very interested. 

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Yeah. 
So we are obviously an asset 

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management company first and 
foremost, but we specialize in 

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exchange traded funds. 
And you know, as an ETF issuer, 

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we're involved in everything. 
So we do the design, we do the, 

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the launch, the management, the 
marketing of ETF. 

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So unlike perhaps some other, 
you know, diversified financial 

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services business, what's unique
about a specific ETF manager is 

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that's all we do. 
So in other words, we specialize

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in the ETF fund. 
And the brilliant thing about 

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ETF says it's really just a 
wrapper for all sorts of 

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underlying investments. 
And so we started a company, 

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we're headquartered in New York 
City, but the business is now 

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global. 
So we have products that are 

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listed on European exchanges. 
We have a team in Asia, and our 

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products are distributed all 
around the world. 

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And you know, we have a vast 
array of different investments 

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ranging from things like 
physical gold to leveraged ETFs 

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on single companies to, you 
know, high yield ETFs on 

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different underlyings that you 
know are generated through 

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options. 
So we have 10 billion give or 

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take in terms of assets and a 
lot of different ETF strategies 

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here Europe and and distributed 
around the world. 

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I'd love that so people can go 
to the website, it'll be in the 

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description to learn more about 
all the different products you 

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have As far as risk management, 
let's take the conversation 

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there, please. 
How do you handle risk and what 

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are some mistakes you see people
make with respect to risk 

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management? 
I think that the, the way that 

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we think about it is that, you 
know, we're effectively like the

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tool kit for investors. 
So we are the the company that's

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providing those tools. 
So with ETFs, the main thing 

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that we try and do is deliver 
the stated investment objective.

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Now that obviously changes and 
varies per fund. 

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So that could be anything from, 
you know, just providing 

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exposure to the Spot gold price 
to replicating 2 times the 

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return of NVIDIA stock over a 
given day. 

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So there are plenty of ways that
investors, you know, can manage 

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risk and we can manage risk. 
And obviously from a portfolio 

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management perspective, you 
know, we have to have a robust, 

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you know, investment management 
process, you know, team in 

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place. 
And that's something that sets 

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us apart in terms of, you know, 
we do all of that ourselves in 

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house. 
It's not outsourced to others. 

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So in in, you know, the spirit 
of trying to, you know, make 

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sure that our products do what 
they say on the proverbial tin. 

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You know, that's what we do 
everyday and we obviously focus 

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to make sure that we deliver 
that quality on a daily basis. 

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I love that. 
Thank you for that explanation. 

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The vast majority of our 
audience are independent money 

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managers, high net worth 
investors, their clients and I 

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just, you know, do it yourself 
investors. 

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There's a lot of interest in 
ETFs in general. 

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One of our most, you know, 
whenever I interview people that

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are in your space, I get lots of
emails and questions and all 

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that fun stuff. 
If you don't mind, can you 

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explain to the audience how the 
2X NVIDIA works and or some of 

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the options products without 
going too deep, but just, you 

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know, the stock trades all day, 
let's say it's up 1%. 

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How does a 2X ETF quote UN quote
work? 

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And then the options I do if you
can explain that high level. 

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It works in a similar way to 
leverage, just more broadly. 

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So if you were to borrow, 
whether it to be able to buy a 

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house or whether you were to 
just buy a stock yourself on a 

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margin account, it works in a 
very similar way. 

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In other words, if the 
underlying stock goes up by 1% 

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in a day, the objective of a 
leveraged ETF, if it's a two 

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times leverage would be to go up
by 2% in a day. 

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And the exact same principle 
applies if it's a short. 

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So we have two times short ETFs 
and therefore if the underlying 

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stock was to go down by 1% in a 
day, the short ETF would go up 

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by 2% in a day. 
So that's how they work in terms

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of options with the options 
products. 

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In our case, it's our yield 
boost family. 

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We sell options contracts and 
the reason for doing that is 

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when you sell an option, you 
generate what's called a premium

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and that premium can be 
distributed to investors and 

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create a yield. 
So options strategies and the 

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most common ones are among the 
most common that that we use are

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either things called covered 
calls or put writing strategies.

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They all ostensibly mean the 
same thing, which is you're 

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selling a contract and you're 
generating A yield from selling 

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that. 
So you're turning volatility 

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into income. 
And so that's the the benefit 

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they try and generate very high 
yields. 

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Thank you very much for that 
explanation. 

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OK, let's talk about some 
timeless lessons that you've 

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learned along the way that you'd
like to share with the audience,

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either business, life, 
relationships, health, anywhere 

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you want to go. 
Sure. 

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Well, I think as as somebody who
started my own company and who's

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now been going for eight years 
on that journey, I mean we are a

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company that we raised venture 
capital from day one. 

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So we've been very much of a 
part of the venture capital sort

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of investment cycle as well as 
business cycle with growing 

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Granite shares. 
And you know, I think there are 

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there are a number of lessons 
along the way. 

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But I think one of the main ones
that I can think of in terms of,

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you know, building the company 
is that probably like a lot of 

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things in life that it always 
takes longer than you think and 

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costs more money. 
And, you know, within that 

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there's a lot of stuff to to 
talk about. 

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But the other thing is about 
sort of persistence and about 

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being able to stay in the game. 
And, you know, a lot of 

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opportunities or a lot of things
in life, you know, it's really 

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about timing. 
And so you might have the right 

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idea, but the timing is wrong. 
And it's about being able to 

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stay the course knowing that, 
you know, you'll get to a 

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pointless cycle when it is the 
right time. 

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And, you know, we as a company, 
you know, really took, you know,

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a number of years before we sort
of took off, so to speak. 

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And so there's a number of years
there of, you know, struggle, 

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perseverance before things start
to start to come, right. 

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I love that. 
So let's talk about the other 

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side of that timeless mistakes. 
What are some timeless mistakes 

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that you've made, you've seen 
other people make? 

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How do you learn from them so 
you don't repeat them? 

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Well, I mean, there, there, 
there are so many. 

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I was lucky. 
Like I said, I was involved in a

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company where I was not the 
founder, but I had equity in the

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business. 
It was a start up. 

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And you know, fortunately that 
grew into success story. 

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But you know, success stories 
are never linear. 

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There's always, you know, bumps 
and bruises along the ways, 

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always ups and downs and 
learning experiences. 

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And, you know, I think one of 
the things that, you know, every

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entrepreneur should think about 
more than perhaps gets talked 

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about is it doesn't matter, you 
know, how great the idea is or 

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how good the opportunity is 
that, you know, there's no 

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business, like no business. 
And if you run out of cash, then

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that's game over. 
And so, you know, a bit that 

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gets probably talked about less 
because it's not as exciting as,

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you know, the idea and you're 
changing the world and all these

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sort of amazing things people 
love to talk about is just 

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simply that a lot of it is about
being able to stay in the game. 

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And that means being very 
prudent in terms of managing 

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money and making sure that 
you've always got enough cash on

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hand to keep the business going.
And that's a combination of, you

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know, prudent management, that's
a combination of, you know, 

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raising money at the right 
times. 

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You know, everything goes. 
There's a lot of things that go 

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into that, but you know, one of 
the biggest mistakes I see being

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made is, you know, people 
running out of money and or 

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having to raise so much money 
that they get diluted down and 

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eventually the founder ends up 
owning nothing from what is 

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ostensibly a successful 
business. 

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Got it. 
Now that makes great sense. 

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I'd love that. 
Make sure you have enough cash 

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to stay in the game, as as 
you're saying. 

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So what about leadership? 
You've you're a great leader. 

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Tell us what lessons you've 
learned about leadership. 

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You've been led by other people 
and not just what makes a great 

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leader, but what are some 
lessons that people can do that 

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want to be that have that 
entrepreneurial bug they're 

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leading A-Team for the first 
time possibly, or you know, 

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anything along those lines, 
please. 

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I mean, I've always, I've always
felt like it was very important 

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to lead by example. 
And, you know, I think it's 

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really, really difficult when 
you're first starting a company 

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and you don't have the, you 
know, the, the, the cash for 

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want of a better word, to go out
and sort of hire necessarily, 

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you know, the people that you 
necessarily want to hire. 

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And you know, you're trying to 
hire people based upon a mission

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or based upon an idea, the view 
that, hey, you know, join me 

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today. 
And you know, your compensation 

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will be lower than if you worked
at A, at a traditional job or 

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whatever you're doing, but the 
pay off hopefully will be, will 

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be bigger in the long run. 
That's a, that's a tough one to,

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to sell to people. 
And so, you know, getting people

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involved from the beginning 
based upon, you know, what 

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you're trying to do with the 
company, the opportunity is 

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really difficult. 
And ultimately that comes down 

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to people trusting you that 
you're going to be able to 

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deliver that and make it a 
success. 

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So I think part of that is down 
to leading by example and 

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showing people that you're not 
just somebody that just talks 

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and does empty words, that 
you're out front and center 

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building the business, you know,
being the face of the company, 

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you know, really trying to to 
push forward every day. 

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And so from that perspective, I 
think that's really important. 

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The second thing that that 
probably goes hand in hand with 

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that. 
And again, every, every company 

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is different, but I've found 
specifically relating to our 

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business that when you have a 
smaller team and you're pushing 

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really hard, it it's really 
important to, to give people 

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huge amount of latitude to do 
their jobs. 

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And in some respects, you could,
you could take it to an extreme 

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and say that, you know, that 
you're really giving people 

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almost no, you know, training 
or, you know, management, 

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etcetera. 
But that that sort of has to be 

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the trade off because you don't 
have time to do that. 

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And you know, you're, you're 
giving people that opportunity 

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to thrive. 
But doing that in a way that is,

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is sort of very autonomous. 
And, and, and I found, you know,

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those work and clearly it's not 
for everybody. 

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It has to be for the right 
people, but you know, the the 

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right people thrive in that 
environment. 

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And those are typically the 
people that, you know, add the 

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most value in a very 
entrepreneurial organization. 

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Yeah, I think that's. 
A great point is that you're 

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getting high value people or 
people that are competent and 

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they can go get paid a job that 
equals their compensation right 

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now. 
So it makes 500 grand a year, a 

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million a year, 250 a year, a 
dollar a year, it doesn't 

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matter. 
But hey, don't take that million

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bucks right now. 
Come with me and hopefully you 

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make 10. 
I see you're smiling. 

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So you know you make 10 or 20 
down the road. 

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So I fully feel. 
In in theory, but when you 

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actually present it to someone 
who's got a, a lifestyle that 

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time may have kids, you know, 
may have, you know, obviously 

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liabilities, that's a it's a 
difficult, difficult 

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conversation to have. 
Yeah, but when it works, it 

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works. 
And it's more than they've got 

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to have enough belief in that 
vision. 

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That's the dream. 
Yeah, that's the dream. 

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So that is the, you know, that's
the classic risk reward pay off 

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right there. 
There can be no reward in life 

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without risk and you know that 
is the ultimate in terms of your

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taking the maximum amount of 
risk and therefore you should be

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rewarded accordingly. 
Yeah, I absolutely love that. 

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OK, so let's talk about the flip
side of that adversity. 

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How do you handle adversity? 
I know successful leaders have 

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been through adversity, 
otherwise they wouldn't be 

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successful. 
And what are some obstacles you 

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had to overcome along the way? 
This is, this is a really good 

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question. 
I mean, I think to some degree 

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it, you know, there's adversity 
or there's tough times all, all 

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the time. 
And it, it's a bit, you know, 

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again, the mindset whereby you 
just have to keep going and 

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regardless of, of what's 
happening, there'll be plenty of

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times when you know, you have 
really bad, bad days, you know, 

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bad periods, etcetera, and you 
have no alternative just to keep

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going. 
And so, you know, you try and 

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obviously be as positive as you 
can without it seeing 

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disingenuous. 
I mean, I think, you know, 

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people obviously understand, you
know, especially a business like

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ours, super transparent. 
You know, everything we do in 

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terms of the funds is completely
transparent. 

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So everyday, you know, anybody 
can look up, you know, how how 

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much money we have in the fund, 
you know, etcetera. 

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So you know, everybody that you 
work with is kind of aware of of

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what's going on, but all you can
do is push forward. 

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And I think it in some respects 
it's an easy answer, but it's 

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00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,400
the, it's the only answer 
because you know what else, what

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00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,600
other, you know, choice do you 
have? 

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00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,920
I think again, it comes back to 
the staying in the game comment 

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00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,880
that you know, I think that's 
one of the key attributes you 

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00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,560
need to have that you just need 
to be able to keep going 

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regardless of of, you know, what
the current environment looks 

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00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:59,960
like. 
Yeah, I love that. 

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I think that's really, really 
important because most people, 

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once it gets tough, they quit, 
they stop, and that's why 

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00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,119
there's a few. 
That's. 

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00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:07,160
What? 
Yeah. 

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00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:08,880
And, and probably the second 
part of your question, I mean, 

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00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,160
we've had, you know, so many 
different, you know, tough times

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00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,400
like along the way. 
But one of the things in our 

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business is, you know, every 
fund that you launch is not 

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00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,880
going to be a success and you're
going to have failures along the

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00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,000
way. 
And so, you know, being able to 

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00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,680
to identify, you know, something
that's failing and you know, 

304
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,640
there's always an emotional 
component to it because you 

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00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,520
launch something not expecting 
it to fail. 

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00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,320
You launch something because you
think it's a great idea and 

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00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:40,960
everybody else should think it's
a great idea. 

308
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,600
But that's just not how life 
works sometimes. 

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00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,920
And so, you know, you have to be
able to reconcile that, you 

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00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,400
know, something hasn't worked 
and then take actions 

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00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,920
appropriately to, you know, to 
terminate that fund, to close it

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00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,840
down. 
There's always like different 

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00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,360
partners that you end up 
partnering with that for 

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00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,880
whatever reason don't work out. 
Or, you know, there's people and

315
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,640
there's all sorts of things that
won't go your way. 

316
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,640
And, you know, being able to 
deal with that and move on is is

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00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,640
sort of critically important. 
I. 

318
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,560
Love that when you were saying 
the funds don't work, it's 

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00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,000
almost like a trade. 
No trader puts on a trade 

320
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,360
saying, oh, this is not going to
work. 

321
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,120
Everyone expects it to work. 
And then. 

322
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:24,360
Yeah. 
And then all of a sudden it 

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00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:25,880
doesn't work and then they've 
got to deal with it. 

324
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,080
So being prepared for that is 
really, really powerful. 

325
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:28,920
Yeah. 
And. 

326
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,160
You hear this a lot about 
trading or investing, that it's 

327
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,760
a psychology. 
It's about being emotionally 

328
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:39,360
attached to a stock or whatever 
it is and, you know, realizing 

329
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:42,040
that sometimes you might love 
the company, but the company 

330
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:43,880
doesn't love you in terms of 
investment. 

331
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:48,560
And, you know, is when to when 
to get out is equally as 

332
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,200
important as when to buy in. 
Yeah. 

333
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:52,800
Fully agree. 
I wrote a whole book about 

334
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,600
psychological analysis, which is
my contribution to Wall Street, 

335
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,440
if you will, fundamental and 
technical analysis. 

336
00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,360
Well, all right, my thought 
process, that's not enough to 

337
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:01,360
beat the market. 
If it was, everybody would have 

338
00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:02,600
owned a few islands in the 
Caribbean. 

339
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,760
So the third piece puzzle, which
is the psychological part, teach

340
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,880
people how to make rational, not
emotional decisions. 

341
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:09,320
And I love what you're saying 
here. 

342
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:11,640
All right, beautiful. 
Final question for you. 

343
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,560
Well, what is the best piece of 
advice you'd like to give the 

344
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,680
audience or your 30 year old 
self? 

345
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,000
Well, I think the, you know, the
best piece of advice that that I

346
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,280
could give for anybody that is 
thinking about, you know, 

347
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,560
getting in or starting an 
entrepreneurial journey is I 

348
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,080
think sometimes there's this, 
you know, we perhaps place too 

349
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:39,960
much emphasis on, you know, 
experience and being qualified 

350
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:46,360
and being the right timing and 
all these things never 

351
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:49,360
necessarily line up. 
And I think the best advice I 

352
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:54,720
could give is people just need 
to start that there's never, 

353
00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,440
there's never a bad time to 
start. 

354
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,240
And you know, if anything, you 
just sort of missing out on 

355
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,240
opportunity the longer that you 
wait. 

356
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,760
So I think if you're, if you're 
committed to doing it, you know,

357
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:12,520
you just need to start doing it.
And so many times I've seen 

358
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,720
people sort of procrastinate 
really longer, think about, Oh, 

359
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,120
well, not this year, maybe next 
year or maybe a few years I'll 

360
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:22,240
have enough experience or maybe 
I'll have, you know, squirreled 

361
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,360
away enough money that I can 
sort of take the risk and. 

362
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,920
You know, all of these things 
are sort of inconsequential on 

363
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,160
the grand scheme of things, that
either the business works or it 

364
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,440
doesn't work. 
And I think the sooner you find 

365
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,560
it out, the better. 
I love it. 

366
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,320
Absolutely love it. 
Well, Will, thank you so much 

367
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,320
for coming on the show. 
Congrats on all your success. 

368
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,840
This was fantastic and hopefully
we'll have you on again soon. 

369
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:43,960
Yeah. 
Thank you. 

370
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,360
Adam, great to talk to you. 
Thank you so much for having me.

371
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:47,080
Been a pleasure.