1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:05,040 And welcome everyone to another Smart Money Circle episode. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,680 I'm Adam Sarhan. With me today is Eric Metz, 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:12,080 who's the CIO Chief Investment Officer and Head of Spider Rock 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,920 Advisors, which is a fully owned subsidiary of Black Rock on 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:20,200 Black Rock's SMA platform. They have approximately $250 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,800 billion in assets under management. 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,320 Eric, thank you so much for taking the time and welcome to 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,760 the Smart Money Circle. Adam, I appreciate it. 9 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,360 Looking forward to it. So Eric, I always like to begin. 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,360 Can you please tell us your story and how you got to where 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,960 you are today? Yeah, listen, it's, it's, it's 12 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,080 been a fun journey. Maybe some left and right turns 13 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,480 that I could have predicted and a lot more turns that that were 14 00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:44,880 unpredictable. You know, I, I began my my 15 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,480 career in finance or derivatives, I should say, in 16 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:52,080 academia at the University of Michigan and Graduate School 17 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,440 studying financial engineering and derivatives themselves. 18 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,120 And then I found out that academia was not necessarily for 19 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,000 me and wanted to trade. And so I cut my teeth in the 20 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,320 industry with a local proprietary trading shop, which 21 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:08,560 is now global called Chicago Trading Company. 22 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,960 So my first real professional job in the industry and began on 23 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:16,320 the floor of the CBOE in the Chicago Market Exchange. 24 00:01:16,320 --> 00:01:20,040 So, you know, late 90s, early 2000s, believe it or not, there 25 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,160 were 4 predominant exchanges in the options arena, Chicago being 26 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,760 probably the largest. And so I wanted to, to really, 27 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,480 you know, learn the trade in the, in the craft from the 28 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,360 experts there. And then, you know, realized 29 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,360 that the floor was becoming more and more of a digital 30 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,080 technological arms race. And so wanted to come off for 31 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,520 and, and, and learn the upstairs market. 32 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,880 So think low latency prop trading hedge fund style at a 33 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,880 few boutique shops again in Chicago for those Chicago 34 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,880 trading people. Ronan Capital. 35 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,760 It, it was a very well known name that I was at for three or 36 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,280 four years and then joined, you know, with with some really good 37 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,920 friends and colleagues of mine, a boutique shop. 38 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,840 We had a multifamily office out of New York that backed us in 39 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,760 Bangor Capital. And then my CFA sponsor, who is 40 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,600 the founder of River North called me in O 8 and asked, you 41 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,800 know, hey, I'm managing these close and funds. 42 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,680 Would love to see how your expertise and and volatility. 43 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,960 And he knew my background because he was my CFA sponsor. 44 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:27,720 And his name is Patrick Galley. He's the CIO and CEO of River 45 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,480 North today called me and we kind of whiteboarded some some 46 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,720 of his positions and portfolios and then really got the wheels 47 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,520 turning about learning his business where our asset classes 48 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,680 could potentially be a creative to theirs. 49 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,960 Think about building better portfolios for institutions and 50 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,640 family offices alike that, you know, came with the opportunity 51 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:53,240 to join his team in 2011. And then from there, you know, 52 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,760 it was really interesting the time, the timing of that 53 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,520 transition. Asset management, wealth 54 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,520 management, robo advisory technology, venture capital, 55 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,600 automation, all were hitting the industry kind of the same time 56 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,240 with like this transformation and having an ear to the ground, 57 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,680 speaking to clients every day, thinking about where their pain 58 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:16,920 points were. The vision of Spider Rock 59 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:21,520 Advisors, what was built in partnership with what became my, 60 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,760 my partner in Spider Rock Advisors, George Papa, who is 61 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,720 the founder of Spider Rock. And the idea was, you know, 62 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,960 myself at River North who is a derivatives portfolio manager 63 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,520 and trader as a fiduciary, you know, managing hedge fund and 64 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:41,320 mutual fund, some SM as but the clients really needed to get 65 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,440 more customization. Think about the after tax world. 66 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,520 And these clients were, were domiciled in so many different 67 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,040 venues. Think UBS and Merrill Lynch and 68 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,760 Fidelity and Schwab and Pershing and Bank of New York and 69 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,720 Northern Trust, you name it. And so thinking through the 70 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,280 challenges that they foresaw, who in the industry could could 71 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,200 actually deliver that? And there were a few and you 72 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,880 know, players that had attempts, but nobody with with I'll call 73 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,680 it a built for purpose I to the client. 74 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,840 And so we set forth with Spider Rock advisors the vision to 75 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,320 build a hub and spoke infrastructure connecting all 76 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:23,000 the private wealth channels to a proprietary build to listen to 77 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,040 the needs and client demands and and asks around building 78 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,040 parameters and and bespoke derivative solutions. 79 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,080 And in doing so, we had to build a bunch of technology like a 80 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,440 lot. And it was a big bet. 81 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,680 It was very filled of dreams. Ask if if your movie buff, you 82 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,240 know, if you build it, they will come. 83 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,080 But we had the clients telling us exactly what to do. 84 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,880 And so you know, that was in 2015. 85 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:51,520 We, so we built kind of a lot of tack and, and, and workflow and 86 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,880 automation and infrastructure to really deliver a universal hub 87 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,600 and spoke derivative solutions platform that has a fiduciary 88 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,440 business model to the client and is allows, you know, 89 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,880 customization and, and after tax solutions. 90 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,960 And then we we bootstrap the whole thing. 91 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,560 And then as we continually scaled, we realized we were 92 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,440 facing a distribution challenge. Now that we have clients and we 93 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,120 have product market fit, now we have technology, now we have all 94 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,880 the solutions. How do we think about 95 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,120 distributing this? Because we needed to raise our 96 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,560 awareness and our profile and make sure that financial 97 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,400 advisors, institutions, family offices like knew of our 98 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,200 capabilities. And so that was really the, the, 99 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,000 the inflection point was when we were starting to hit a ceiling 100 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,360 on our distribution, you know, a large institution pulled us 101 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,120 aside and said, you know, we have thousands and thousands of 102 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,920 financial advisors. How on earth do you get a sell 103 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,120 and service? And we so we, we began a process 104 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,480 and serendipitously, you know, BlackRock came unsolicited to us 105 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:56,920 probably through the rumor mill, heard what we were up to. 106 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,720 And you know, it fit very nicely with their vision of their SMA 107 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,560 platform. And so in 2021, they took a 108 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,960 stake in the business, took two seats on my board and you know, 109 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,040 wanted us to mature our technology stack and basically 110 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,200 prove out that we could scale at the level of a institutional 111 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,640 platform like BlackRock. So 2024, our board collectively 112 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,720 decided that it was time to, you know, go in house, so to speak, 113 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,040 and we became a vertically integrated business unit in May 114 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,320 of 24. So that is roughly speaking 25 115 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,680 years and hopefully less than 5 minutes. 116 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,040 Wow, I absolutely love it. So congratulations on your 117 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:37,840 success. It's absolutely fantastic. 118 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:40,800 I love the fact that they contacted you and not the other 119 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:42,560 way around. That typically means stars are 120 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,520 aligned up above and there's good things that come after 121 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,120 that. So let's talk about Spider Rock. 122 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,720 Please let invest. Let's let the audience know what 123 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:52,920 you do, some of your competitive advantages, your investment 124 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,400 style, all that fun stuff, please. 125 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,600 Yeah, no, I appreciate it. And, and, and thanks, you know, 126 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,160 on, on, on the aforementioned comments. 127 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,160 So I, I think there's a few things to, to really, you know, 128 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,600 raise awareness around. So number one, derivatives as an 129 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,200 asset class for, for, you know, the professional traders in 130 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,080 Chicago has always been kind of a staple statement. 131 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,760 But many financial advisors, many fiduciaries, many other 132 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,720 asset managers don't have the backgrounds, the infrastructure, 133 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,600 the technology to actually go deliver the volatility as an 134 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,560 asset class and as as as that's a headline statement. 135 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,240 What that actually means is derivatives can solve very 136 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,920 unique portfolio challenges to build better risk adjusted 137 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,720 returns that other plain vanilla instruments can't, right? 138 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:40,560 Microsoft is a linear instrument. 139 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,240 Microsoft pays a dividend. Microsoft if it's up 10%, the 140 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,080 investors up 10%, Microsoft's down 10%, they're down 10%. 141 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,360 What derivatives do is they shape distributions. 142 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:56,040 And so think about like at the utility, each person could have 143 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:00,120 the exact same portfolio, but their psychology of wins and 144 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,400 losses or gains and losses and they get their monthly statement 145 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,480 is very different. That's risk tolerance, right? 146 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:08,920 It's maybe not stated as bluntly. 147 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,920 And So what derivatives really do well and are very uniquely 148 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,720 positioned to do better than any other portfolio constructing 149 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,520 tool is to shape the outcome that investor is seeking. 150 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:27,640 So if you said to me, I would much prefer up 10, down 8 as 151 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,120 opposed to up 10, down 10, OK, derivatives can maybe shape 152 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,919 that. Well, what about up 20, down 20? 153 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:39,039 Well, I can't get you up 20, but I get you up 18 and down 12 and 154 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:43,600 now light bulbs start to go off. And so it's the upside down side 155 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,600 capture ratio that things gravity that people gravitate 156 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,720 to, it's risk adjusted profiles, it's sharp ratios, it's Sortina 157 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,000 ratios. And so when you think through 158 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,440 the truest value of what we're delivering, it's re 159 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,720 characterizing what a risk adjusted portfolio construction 160 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:02,760 can be now with these instruments. 161 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,520 But to do that, you have to have all that infrastructure and all 162 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,600 that technology because each investor's unique. 163 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:14,160 And So what I haven't mentioned there is that's derivatives as 164 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,360 an asset class, that's nonlinear payouts, that's building better 165 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,560 portfolios, building better sharp ratios. 166 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,760 But what I haven't there mentioned there is like the 167 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,920 efficiency of our solution set. So I am not asking for an 168 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,440 allocation, Adam, your portfolio is fully invested. 169 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,720 You're a professional investor. You look at a hedge fund, you 170 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,400 look at a private equity, you look at venture capital, they're 171 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,480 going to ask you to give them cash. 172 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:44,320 What I am asking is, right, let me see your portfolio, let me 173 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,240 see it. And because of that 174 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,040 infrastructure, I can now see exactly what you owned. 175 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,640 And if you hire us, we're going to run a bunch of analytics on 176 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,320 ways to improve that portfolio. And the way I set up that 177 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,600 framework is, you know, Adam, we're sitting in, you know, 178 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,960 pretty close to all time highs. You probably have a lot of 179 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,880 equity gains and the reason you probably hold some of those 180 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,080 still is because you haven't been able to sell them in 181 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,160 rebalance because you don't want to pay the tax bill. 182 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,040 And so the capital efficiency here is, can I actually go 183 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,000 deliver a better portfolio to you without forcing you to sell 184 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,360 something? I'm not asking for your cash. 185 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,480 I'm asking for a lens into your portfolio and ways to improve 186 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,800 it. And so if I see that I'm like, 187 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:34,920 Adam, you've been so fortuitous to own Tesla, NVIDIA, Microsoft, 188 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:37,520 if taxes are zero, what would you do? 189 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,600 And you'd be like, I actually not at this phase in my life, 190 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,240 would not want that much risk. And I actually would like this 191 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,840 muni bond portfolio, but I can't do anything about it. 192 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:49,800 Well, insert spider rock advisors. 193 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:51,800 I see your account wherever it sits. 194 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,760 You hire us as a fiduciary. I'm aligned with you. 195 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,080 These are not trades. These are perpetual systematic 196 00:10:58,080 --> 00:10:59,720 solutions. Once I understand your 197 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,840 objectives to go into your account wherever you're 198 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:07,240 domiciled and re optimize your portfolio with an after tax 199 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,800 mindset, but try to get you that up 18 down 12. 200 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,160 You used to just own Microsoft. Now you own Microsoft pay off 201 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,360 profiles that are different and catered to you. 202 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,840 So that's like the the the lens of our solutions. 203 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,520 If I tell people we, we are a derivative solutions platform 204 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:31,080 and what that means is I can curate any solution, but I'd 205 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,800 rather hear your objectives and I will optimize to those because 206 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,800 I got an alphabet suit behind me and acronyms and I can go 207 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,480 through all the product lineups. And that could be fun over 208 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,960 Saturday if you wanted to be bored for a full day. 209 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,320 But it's the goal that you're providing me. 210 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,120 I can deliver better than any other instrument. 211 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,680 That's the asset class. That's options as an asset class 212 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,720 Spider Rocket Advisors as the fiduciary to that is going to 213 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,960 then run that as a core sleeve of your portfolio for a window 214 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:04,760 of time. If if you're thinking you know 215 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,320 in a finite period, but most clients start with one and 216 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,240 become power users of our of our of our solution kit. 217 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:13,760 Yeah, it makes perfect sense and I love how you explained it. 218 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,640 Thank you for that. So do you look at derivatives as 219 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,800 an asset class as well? Almost exclusively. 220 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,480 So I will ingest portfolios regardless of what they have 221 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,880 equities, fixed income, ETF, single securities, mutual funds. 222 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:31,400 And I'll say, hey Adam, this is this is the ball of wax that 223 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,280 that I now have a lens into let's all agree as to what your 224 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,800 objectives are and how we could improve them. 225 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,080 And so the one that's super obvious and the most 226 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,040 conventional is concentrated stock, right? 227 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,240 I have hundreds and hundreds of clients that come to me because 228 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,880 their clients, financial advisors speaking, my clients 229 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,520 have somebody who has worked at Caterpillar for 25 years, makes 230 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,920 sense. And they've amassed a pretty 231 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:03,720 nice nest egg, $7,000,000. But 4 million is in one stock 232 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,400 Caterpillar. And they're like this family 233 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:13,080 cannot afford for that asset to have some issue, you know, a 234 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,400 rise in which it, you know, goes down 50%, like it would be like 235 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,240 lifestyle changing. So what do we need to do? 236 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,960 We need to protect that asset. But the problem is if you sell 237 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,240 it and go diversify, you have to pay taxes, right? 238 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,440 And our solution set will then say, OK, with advisor and 239 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,040 family, how do we think about building you a stronger, more 240 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,520 durable portfolio for the next 5 years, 10 years, but really 241 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,840 mitigate the risk of that single security. 242 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,080 And, you know, that's what options do best. 243 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,720 And then as you walk through that, the financial advisors, 244 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,240 what about an exchange fund? That's a great thought. 245 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,720 What does an exchange fund do? That Caterpillar family can put 246 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,160 their $4 million into exchange fund and get them get a ratable 247 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:02,280 exposure of all other folks that are in similar positions. 248 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,560 And then the downside, however, is they're locked up for seven 249 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:08,400 years. And so if you need liquidity or 250 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,880 you need transparency, let alone the fees, there's some tax 251 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,400 ramifications. In 2018, this example existed. 252 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:20,000 Apple was the family in the, you know, the use case here. 253 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,360 And the financial advisor said, you know, hey, team Spider rock, 254 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,640 I just don't want any more Apple exposure. 255 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:27,800 I want a diversified for portfolio, but I need it. 256 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,120 I need to be able to get liquidity when I need to. 257 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,880 And so we built a solution. Again, everything we do is built 258 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,680 for purpose to a client objective that we call exchange 259 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,200 fund replication. So it's probably one of our 260 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:44,040 more, I'll call it innovative solutions solving the exact 261 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,520 problem of I don't want this security Apple in this case, 262 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,800 Caterpillar in the other. But instead I want a diversified 263 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,280 portfolio, but I don't want to sell it today and I need to 264 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,520 maintain complete flexibility customization through time. 265 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,720 I like my shares, I like my dividend. 266 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,640 So we get to keep the shares in the account. 267 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,880 And then at the end of six months, two years, three years, 268 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,200 unlike seven years, you know, we're re optimizing this through 269 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,320 time. And so it's it's been a huge 270 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:18,080 success in solving for that exact client use case. 271 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,200 But hopefully that brings to life like how we engage with 272 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,040 folks. It's tell me, tell me what your 273 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:24,920 problem statement is. And if I can improve it better 274 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,280 than other conventional measures, then I'll bring stuff 275 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,120 to the table for you. I absolutely love it. 276 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:30,760 Let's talk about risk management, Eric. 277 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,840 How do you handle risk and what are some mistakes you see people 278 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,360 make with respect to risk management? 279 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,400 That, that may be the best question I've gotten all week. 280 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,440 Listen, I, I think when you are a professional investor, you 281 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,440 have to start with the risk management. 282 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,200 A lot of folks in the retail world start with the reward. 283 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,440 And that's the if, if I was to say one statement, professional 284 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,640 investors manage risk, retail investors seek reward. 285 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,640 And that's just behavioral finance, right? 286 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,600 And So what we are paid to do is start with analyzing the risk. 287 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,760 And when I tell clients each day risk adjusted returns are what 288 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,680 you want, you just don't think about it like that. 289 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,000 And I give various metaphors to explain the value of risk 290 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,640 adjusted returns. And one that is is very layman 291 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,920 centric is every single person that's been on an airplane has 292 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,240 always heard the pilot come on and say, you know what, there's 293 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,840 some turbulence ahead. We're going to go north and 294 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,920 deviate on our route, 100 miles. It's going to cost us 7 minutes, 295 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,680 but we're going to land in San Francisco 7 minutes later. 296 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,760 But there will be no turbulence. There's not a single person on 297 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,280 that plane. That's like, no, no, no, 298 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,040 actually I want to get there 7 minutes faster, go straight 299 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,960 through the eye of the storm. Not a single person. 300 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,800 But in finance and professional money management, they actually 301 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,840 want that. And because they, the, the 302 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,920 allure of the reward forgets the premise of wanting risk adjusted 303 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,560 returns. And so we spent countless hours 304 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,240 re underwriting what that means for our work. 305 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,960 And so go back to that Microsoft example that we began to chat 306 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,040 around. I don't like up 10 down 10. 307 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,119 I don't like up 20 down 20. I like up 18, down 12. 308 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,640 OK. But what are you giving up? 309 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,720 Everybody just said I went up 18, down 12, that's better than 310 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,360 up 20, down 20. Everybody just agreed to that. 311 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:36,560 But what they conveniently forget is when it goes up 30, I 312 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,440 might only be up 20. So what's what are the 313 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,560 symmetries that you're seeking that's risk adjusted returns by 314 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,240 the way. And what is the cost to build 315 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,320 better symmetries? Sometimes it's foregone upside. 316 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,280 And so how we think about everything in in Spider Rock 317 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,800 Advisors for all of our work, whether it's an institution tax 318 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,960 exempt, whether it's a billionaire family office, or 319 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,080 whether it's the full nest egg of a $3,000,000 family that just 320 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,000 entered retirement and everything in between. 321 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,680 The idea of building better portfolios has to start with 322 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,240 risk adjusted returns. And because I don't have a 323 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,840 crystal ball and Adam, I know you know this, I don't know 324 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,120 where the S&P is going to go, nor do you. 325 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,680 I don't know where Apple's going to go, let alone, you know, 326 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,200 ever, especially in a short window of time. 327 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,280 But I can control the risk. I actually can manufacture a 328 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,880 risk protocol and the reward where stocks go, what volatility 329 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,760 does like that? That's left to forces that are 330 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:39,880 greater than than anybody, right. 331 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,080 And so that's that's the principled framework to building 332 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,920 better risk adjusted portfolios. OK, I absolutely love it. 333 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,440 So I always joke around at half joking, but say, you know, most 334 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,280 people look at the calculator and they start punching in 335 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:53,560 numbers. The seek reward. 336 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,720 I love what you said about professionals manage risk and 337 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,720 individuals seek reward. Nobody goes to that calculus. 338 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,120 I'm gonna buy a million shares of XYZ's and they go up a dollar 339 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:03,640 and make a million bucks, you know, blah, blah, blah. 340 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,080 That's what people are just looking at that side of it, but 341 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,080 they completely dismiss the risk side of it. 342 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,200 Most people, at least. And 100%. 343 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,200 I'd love that. OK, Thank you so much, Eric for 344 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,120 explaining that and breaking that down the way you did. 345 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,160 Now let's with the conversation, some timeless advice, which is 346 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,280 my favorite part of the show. So you like the risk question. 347 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,200 But wait, there's more. There's a lot more good 348 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,000 questions coming your way still at least. 349 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,120 So here we go. What is some timeless lessons 350 00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:30,640 you've learned along the way that you'd like to share with 351 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,280 the audience? You can go business, life, 352 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:33,760 relationships, anywhere you want to go. 353 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:37,000 Oh, listen, that's a very thoughtful question. 354 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,200 I will. I will segue into that on the 355 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,120 heels of our last one. So I'll stay on the investing 356 00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:47,480 theme here. One of my first risk managers in 357 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:52,000 the business said your sizing needs to be built in a position 358 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:57,880 with how much you're willing to lose, not how much you want to 359 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,320 make. And so if you can reframe 360 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,760 portfolio construction from that, from that bench line 361 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,560 benchmark statement, it will completely re engineer how you 362 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:16,640 build better portfolios, right? And so I think how that segues 363 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,840 into maybe a broader initiative, you know, timeless advice. 364 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,120 We sit in 2026 roughly speaking at all time highs. 365 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,320 I don't think there's ever been a moment in my 25 year 366 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:36,520 professional career in which the dispersion or difference between 367 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:43,960 historical returns and future estimated returns have been at a 368 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,640 wider point in history. What does that mean? 369 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:53,520 Capital markets have been very, very fortuitous in compounding. 370 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,840 Depending upon your index, 12:14 maybe in the NASDAQ, depending 371 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,920 upon your window of time, 18% compounded. 372 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:07,040 There's not a single consultant institution, Wall Street bank 373 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,960 that is looking in the next 10 years with anything north of, 374 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,360 I'm going to call it 7 is probably the most bullish 375 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:19,440 estimate I've seen. So if I have a 14% historical 376 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:25,360 tailwind and I have a 7% forward-looking estimate, what 377 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:27,880 does that mean in the world of compliance for financial 378 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,520 professionals, past performance is not indicative of future 379 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,400 results. And I laugh and I see you 380 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:39,960 chuckling because how on earth you are going to build the most 381 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,360 durable portfolio looking forward given where we sit today 382 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,720 without the asset class of derivatives, right. 383 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,240 I, I don't know how you'll do it, especially if you think 384 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,640 about the after tax components. And yes, that's a biased 385 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,000 self-serving statement from the work that we do. 386 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:04,200 But it's math like if I am compounding historically at 15% 387 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:05,720 and I'm forward-looking at 7 and a half. 388 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,560 Oh, by the way, volatilities not going down, it's going up, 389 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,240 right? I know we just announced a new 390 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,400 Fed chair. We, we know policy is data 391 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,640 dependent, but the front of the curve is also likely going down. 392 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,000 Like you, you have these structural forces that are in 393 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,200 play where equity markets probably pulled returns forward 394 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:31,400 into 2025 and and beyond. 22/20/22 is the only real blip 395 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,440 which you know, that was the interest rate saga that now 396 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,080 allows us to have actually real yield in, in, in nominal terms. 397 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,120 Listen, I, I think the, the, the advice I would, I would want to 398 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,520 you know, maybe shed here is like prudent investing needs to 399 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,560 take that into consideration. And so somebody who is over 400 00:22:54,560 --> 00:23:00,480 their skis and risk, whether knowingly or unknowingly, this 401 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,640 is not a bear market call by any means. 402 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,360 This is just prudent portfolio construction and fiduciary risk 403 00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:08,400 management. So that's, that's, that's one 404 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,280 like theme that I'm seeing coming from clients, seeing 405 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,960 industry research, some of which comes, you know, from, from 406 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,120 BlackRock that I kind of coupled together that that it would want 407 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:21,680 to make sure that that's, you know, I'm on the record at least 408 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,440 acknowledging that that's the factual backdrop that would 409 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,520 that, that we face. So that's like one on the on the 410 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,120 finance side and, and on the investment management side, I've 411 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:36,120 been very fortunate to work with really great people and team. 412 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,360 And so I think through just where we operate today and like 413 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:48,800 having an amazing team is the only critical, I'll call it a 414 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,760 component or key variable. When I see successful businesses 415 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,760 or I see successful teams, it's like the the team, the team, the 416 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,280 team. Like there, there is true, true 417 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:03,960 value and surrounding yourself with individuals that are like 418 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,480 minded in some dimensions, but also in, you know, force debate, 419 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,600 force critical thinking, force of difference of opinion to get 420 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,960 the best out of what it is your mission statement would be. 421 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,360 And so I, I can't, you know, in, in all of our work for clients, 422 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:24,680 it's, it's not even remotely possible without the amazing 423 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,720 team that we have. Yeah, I love that. 424 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,280 OK, I could ask you a lot more questions than that. 425 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,160 I'm going to keep moving forward because I have more questions 426 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,440 for you. The flip side of the timeless 427 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,040 lessons would be timeless mistakes. 428 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:37,440 What are some timeless mistakes either you've made, you've seen 429 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,200 other people make, and how do you learn from them so you don't 430 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:45,040 keep repeating them? Oh wow, Everybody has mistakes. 431 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:54,600 I have many, many, many patience in keeping the objective of the 432 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,960 business model. The objective of a client 433 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,640 requires patience. And so I've been a victim of 434 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,320 this. I've seen other folks be a 435 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,760 victim of this. Patience is required in in any 436 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,680 startup. Patience is required in any 437 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,920 business model. Patience is required in any 438 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,160 portfolio. And the reason why I'm, I'm 439 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,120 convicted in this and I'm, I'm, I've learned from this mistake 440 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,680 countless times. But when you are seeking instant 441 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,880 gratification, it forces you to make decisions differently when 442 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,840 you have patience or time on your side to be thoughtful about 443 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,200 your approach to give markets time to recover in some 444 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,080 instances. So the parallels in life and the 445 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,520 parallels in business and the parallels in portfolios, I think 446 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,360 all require patience hasn't really come natural to me. 447 00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:52,520 I've had to like impose self-discipline. 448 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,160 So I think that, you know, when when you are convicted in, in 449 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,600 the direction you're going, it has to be met with patients in 450 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,160 order to, to deliver. Otherwise you'll get frustrated 451 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,880 because what you see is the vision is not coming fast 452 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,200 enough. So you have to be very 453 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,720 disciplined and grounded in in having patients to allow time to 454 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,000 be, you know, your friend. Yeah, OK. 455 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,360 I love that. And I've experienced similar 456 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,120 things on my end with the team and patience and the reward, not 457 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:24,280 the risk and so on and so forth. So I love what you're sharing 458 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:24,880 here. Thank you. 459 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,520 Next question for you. Let's talk about leadership. 460 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,800 So you mentioned teams important is to have good leaders. 461 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,200 You're a leader. How do you, what have you 462 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,160 learned about leadership? What makes a great leader? 463 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,120 Any lessons about leadership that you'd like to share with 464 00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:41,800 the audience, please? You know, listen, I think it's 465 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,320 a, it's a great question. Leadership styles vary. 466 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,440 There's no one leadership style that always is the best 467 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,160 leadership style. And so if I was to be self 468 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,320 reflective here, changing your leadership style or being 469 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:02,120 dynamic in your leadership style is a skill that I've had to try 470 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:07,360 to, to work on. It changes by market conditions 471 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,800 and needs to change by personnel. 472 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,480 It needs to change by business unit. 473 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,760 If you think technology versus operations versus investments 474 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:22,280 versus sales and marketing. And I think leadership also 475 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,880 needs to have humility and and a humbleness to it. 476 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:31,800 And I've been very fortunate to, to have had mentors and leaders 477 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:37,080 above me and witnessing what's worked for them, how they manage 478 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,520 me and my team. And you know, I'll call it using 479 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,360 a golf metaphor, basketball, right? 480 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,840 I like this leadership style here for this. 481 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,200 I like this leadership over here for that. 482 00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:52,800 And, and like I said, you know, the, the team needs to be able 483 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,160 to respond to, to various styles of leadership, you know, given 484 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,240 the task and the objectives at hand, which change through time 485 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,720 and also given competitive forces in market conditions. 486 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,600 So I, I think, you know, leadership, there's so many 487 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,680 good, you know, I'll call it high profile leaders that have 488 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,400 certain styles. And if you were, you know, and 489 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,400 I've read a few few books on, on, on this exact topic only 490 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,560 from, from my own edification and, and learning. 491 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:26,680 But being able to change your leadership style when necessary 492 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,160 I think is a mission critical key factor in in successful 493 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:31,720 leadership. Yeah, I love that. 494 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,560 The evolution, right? Yeah, no, it's real. 495 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,320 Yeah, I love that. OK, next question for you. 496 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,080 I've learned successful people overcome adversity, handle 497 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,200 adversity different than most. They overcome obstacles. 498 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,800 How do you handle adversity and what are some obstacles you had 499 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,440 to overcome along the way? Oh, there were a lot of 500 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,200 obstacles in the journey of Spider Rock Advisors. 501 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,200 Lots. I would go back to that patience 502 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,480 dialogue as, as a means to overcome some of obstacles. 503 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,520 It's not, it's not there tomorrow, but like if I wait a 504 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,480 year and I keep doing what I'm doing and keep my head down and 505 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,360 grind like time will alleviate some some, some of the 506 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,960 obstacles. I think the, the, the biggest 507 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,840 challenge with respect to this business and obstacles is we 508 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:26,720 were somewhat too early, which again required patience, but we 509 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,080 were thinking through some of the technology that we needed to 510 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,400 build and the way we wanted to deliver, you know, our, our, our 511 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,040 value proposition and the marketplace was, wasn't ready. 512 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,480 And So what does that mean? Clients weren't able to adopt it 513 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:49,680 at scale or the custodian or the back office technology teams 514 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,240 weren't equipped to ingest an API or a data feed. 515 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,120 And so as opposed to getting frustrated and, and, and 516 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,520 throwing your hands in the air, which we probably did at many, 517 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:05,040 many times in a boardroom, but the idea of thinking about how 518 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,480 to put yourself in the other side of the table and try to 519 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,440 propose solutions around the problem. 520 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:16,200 So becoming a perpetual problem solver was, was a skill set and, 521 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,920 and a business dynamic that we needed to adjust to through 522 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,360 time. And listen, I think the biggest 523 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,960 obstacle, which, which we all face, because nobody knew what 524 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,360 the hell was going on, it was COVID. 525 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,480 And so when you're, when you're in these business momentum, 526 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,200 business building modes, and then you get thrown not even a 527 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,280 curveball, but a haymaker such as COVID. 528 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,840 It's like, how do you improvise? How do you take the vision of 529 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,840 where you were going and adjust the vision accordingly? 530 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,000 And, and, and by the way, you're, you're managing your 531 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,600 family and your team and in the business and clients. 532 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,160 Like there was that, that, that obstacle can't be understated, 533 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,760 but everybody faced it. And so there was a lot of 534 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,080 empathy and sympathy. And so, you know, I think the 535 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,040 holistic approach there, you know, there were, there were a 536 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,600 lot of success stories through COVID. 537 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,560 There were a lot of, you know, sad stories through COVID. 538 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,880 We, we had both, but we came out on the good side of that. 539 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,520 And and you know, that was it was a life learning lesson for 540 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,520 sure in terms of, you know, overcoming obstacles. 541 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:21,400 I love it. OK, final question for you 542 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,280 today, Eric. What is the best piece of advice 543 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,040 you'd like to give the audience or your 30 year old self? 544 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,960 Oh, my 30 year old self needed a lot of advice. 545 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:39,680 Listen, I think at the end of the day, the, the advice that I, 546 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,400 I would like to, you know, have my team have and, and have 547 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:49,720 somebody that I was to mentor. Chasing success is not, it's not 548 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:54,000 a thing. Chasing passion is a thing. 549 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,400 And if you derive energy from your passion and you do it well, 550 00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:05,280 success will come. And so it's reverse engineering 551 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,600 career paths based upon what motivates you, what you want to 552 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,320 learn about, what you derive energy from, and where you find 553 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,680 passion. If you chase success, it won't 554 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,720 necessarily work, but I have a lot of confidence in the other 555 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,520 path providing a utility of happiness and success. 556 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,240 And whatever you measure success in, in a much more higher 557 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,080 probabilistic world if if you chase the passion as opposed to 558 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:34,800 the outcome. I fully agree. 559 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,600 OK, Eric, this has been athlete fantastic. 560 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,360 Thank you so much for coming on the show. 561 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,840 We'll have links to your website and everything else in the show 562 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,800 notes. And Congrats on your success. 563 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,680 This has been athlete fantastic. Thanks so much, Adam. 564 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:46,480 It's great being here.