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And welcome everyone to another 
Smart Money Circle episode. 

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I'm Adam Sarhan. 
With me today is David Kang, 

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who's the Chairman and CEO of At
the Center Squared, which 

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manages approximately $4 billion
in AUM or assets under 

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management. 
David, thank you so much for 

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taking the time and welcome to 
the Smart Money Circle. 

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Yes, thank you, Adam. 
Definitely a pleasure. 

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So David, I always like to 
begin. 

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Can you please tell us your 
story and how you got to where 

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you are today? 
You know, I have to say I 

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started my financial career with
boring insurance, Northwest 

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Mutual Life. 
I was a college agent and I 

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guess that's, you know, I like 
things simple. 

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You know, I sold annuities, I 
sold life insurance policies and

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it was great because I put all 
my money into annuities and I 

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got a coupon. 
So as a young kid in college, 

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it's always nice to think about 
passive income. 

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So I started really, really 
early, then kind of transferred 

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over to Morgan Stanley Dean 
Witter. 

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I was a private wealth and 
portfolio manager out there. 

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Kind of did a little stint with 
her family business dealing with

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apparel, women's apparel, 
manufacturing, distribution, 

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wholesale and got went back and 
got my MBA from UC Irvine Mirage

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School of Business. 
And from there, it was one of 

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the situations where colleagues,
friends that I knew very well 

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from the days of Morgan Stanley,
you know, we've been keeping in 

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touch for decades, right? 
And we decided if we don't try 

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to do something and do something
up on our own at this age, we're

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going to get too old. 
So tip the risk and lo, lo and 

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behold. 
It worked out. 

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It worked out. 
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. 

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Love it. 
All right, David, let's ask 

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about your business. 
How do you tell us about the 

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Santa? 
Tell us about your investment 

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strategy? 
Anything you want to share there

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please? 
Yeah. 

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I mean, again, traditionally 
it's fixed income. 

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We've got a core, core plus high
yield IG Gov cred, you know, all

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US fixed income securities our 
our strategies. 

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So I bought Dusenta from 
Bradford Marzek. 

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They started in 1984. 
They sold to Tortoise Torto 

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credit strategies And you know, 
I took over in 2020 with the 

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mindset of, OK, there needs to 
be another fixed income 

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management firm. 
The timing seems right. 

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During that time it was COVID, 
so it was very risky, you know, 

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from overall personnel, 
staffing, being able to keep 

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compliant, obviously the most 
important, but that you know, 

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the firm that we acquired had a 
nice 40 year track record and 

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those opportunities really don't
come that often, right? 

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So with regards to the 
strategies, you know, since 

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2020, it's really been all about
rebuilding, rebuilding, 

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rebuilding, maintaining 
maintenance of the portfolios, 

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reposition of the portfolios. 
And I think the most important 

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thing is really restaffing the 
main people at the firm for the 

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next 10/15/20 years. 
Makes sense. 

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Yeah, makes perfect sense. 
So from a fixed income 

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standpoint, for the audience, 
for them to understand there's 

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equities and there's fixed 
income. 

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Can you please elaborate a 
little bit, let people know 

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you're generating income, how it
works, What are some type of 

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fixed income investment you look
at? 

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So on and so forth. 
Yes. 

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I mean, I think everyone has the
equities account mutual fund, 

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everyone is somewhat familiar 
with that. 

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You know, people assume fixed 
income is extremely easy or 

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boring to say the least, but 
when you look at fixed amount, 

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you got to look at debt, you 
know, hence fixed income. 

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What you're doing is buying 
either government debt, you're 

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buying corporate debt or buying 
pools of debt that consumers 

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will borrow, whether from banks,
from origination shops ranging 

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from mortgages all the way down 
to your car loans, etcetera. 

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The when you look at fixed 
income, I think, you know, going

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back to when I was in college, 
the passive income element is 

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what's that always attracted me 
to it. 

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It's consistent, it's 
manageable. 

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And you know, I'm not a big 
stock picker, right? 

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You know, sometimes, you know, 
picking stocks, it gets pretty 

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nerve wracking from time to 
time. 

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I like consistency. 
I like steady, I like, you know,

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our, our idea of a home run is 
outperforming the benchmark by 

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5200 bits. 
Makes sense. 

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Yeah, got it. 
So let's talk about risk. 

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You mentioned risk and it could 
be nerve wracking. 

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Was a nice way of saying it. 
I like your your nerve wracking 

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approach. 
That's be you're being nice. 

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So how do you handle risk and 
what are some mistakes you see 

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people make with respect to risk
management? 

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I think you know to address that
question, the biggest driver and

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or contributor in our ability to
manage risk is technology. 

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And you know when I first 
started Morgan Stanley it was 

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really about, OK, let's buy a 
mini bond for an ultra high net 

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worth individual and let him 
take care of the tax benefits 

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that it offers. 
Then you deal with sovereign 

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debt, whether it's AUS, Europe, 
Asia, Japan, etcetera, it's 

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you're really buying sovereign, 
meaning, you know countries 

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around the world that that, that
they issue. 

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And in fixed income the common 
terminology is are we getting 

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paid for the risk, right, right.
So now going to risk, you know, 

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I think the most important thing
is really about what kind of 

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risk analytic reports does, what
does or what the common investor

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really do, you know, generate. 
You've got multiple drivers 

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here, you've got macro drivers, 
you've got micro drivers. 

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You know, you kind of have to go
through the list in terms of the

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process of assessing risk, OK, 
what's a geopolitical risk in 

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terms of the debt? 
It's, you know, bonds are 

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relatively simple in terms of 
directional returns. 

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When interest rates go down, 
bond prices go up. 

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When interest rates go up, bond 
prices go down. 

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Prices meaning the value of the 
bond at that time of that 

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interest rate. 
But Morrison turned to risk, you

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know, because we live in a very 
global debt market as well as 

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equity market. 
The ability to assess risk, 

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utilizing technology, utilizing 
AI, utilizing and imploring 

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people that understand the 
technology and the data that's 

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out there, and then get to a 
point of simple simplifying what

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directional positioning needs to
be right. 

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So I'll give an example from a 
staffing resource. 

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Before we would hire research 
analysts. 

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Now we develop desk analysts and
furthermore we hire data 

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scientists in conjunction with 
our PMS to assess risk going 

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forward. 
You know, we live in the age of,

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of enormous amount of data and 
if you don't have an embrace of 

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technology, then your risk 
assessment, your risk management

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as well as understanding, like I
said, we're trying to outperform

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by 50 bits or 100 bits and, and 
those risk reports are, are 

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extremely crucial, especially 
more so in the age of technology

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data and so forth more than 
ever. 

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Yeah, I love that. 
So I love what you're saying 

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here. 
And this is the first time we 

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meet, first time we speak, but I
built something called 

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marketterminal.com, which is my 
version of a Wall Street 

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terminal for that exact reason 
to help people simplify the data

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so it's not overwhelming. 
And the big conclusions that, 

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you know, use terminals. 
So why not have everyone else? 

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But I, I love what you're saying
here. 

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So use the technology as a tool 
to quantify the risk and make 

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sure the risk versus return the 
reward and all that fun stuff to

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instead of it just being 
overwhelming or TMI or whatever 

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it is with data, right? 
You can just draw data. 

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I love that. 
OK, moving on to my favorite 

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part of the show, which is 
timeless advice. 

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So let me ask you some questions
about first question is timeless

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lessons you've learned along the
way that you'd like to share 

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with the audience, about 
business, about relationships, 

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anywhere you want to go. 
I think you know, more so than 

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ever, I think with regards to 
timeless lessons where the 

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business is ultimately it comes 
down to we're still in the 

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people business, right, right. 
I think we if we embrace 

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technology and use technology 
appropriately, it gives us more 

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time to interact with our 
friends, colleagues, you know, 

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people that we care about and 
you know, ultimately helps us do

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our job efficiently and with 
less, I want to say stress, 

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right. 
So, and given that, I think, you

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know, the lessons I've learned 
overall from Northwest Mutual 

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Life, Morgan Stanley, Dean 
Witter, you know, a little stint

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with entrepreneurship, with 
apparel business and, you know, 

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developing a financial company 
has always been have a goal, 

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always position, always assess 
that position and always don't 

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be afraid to reposition it. 
Don't be afraid to be wrong, but

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learn from why you were wrong. 
And it fundamentally comes down 

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to is mindset and always kind of
considering not only your 

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perspective, but also with 
regards to drivers, people, 

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markets. 
You know, it's really about one 

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thing that I've learned over 
these years is it's really not 

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about me anymore, right? 
Yeah, right. 

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Me too. 
I couldn't with you more. 

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Once you get to a certain level,
yeah, for sure you want to get 

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back, you want to help others 
and all that see their success. 

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Exactly. 
So, you know, at this stage, you

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know, I've got a handful of 
really strong staffers that are 

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really committed, right. 
They're in the office 3/4 in the

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morning, they're in the office 
till 345 in in the evening. 

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So it's really about OK, great. 
I've I've got a solid staff, 

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committed staff. 
How can I help them develop 

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their wealth, right? 
And hence it's the perspective. 

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It's not about me anymore. 
It's about how can I help the 

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guys that are committed, the 
guys that are have spent the 

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time the the guys that have 
sacrificed their lifestyle and 

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really committed to the choice 
of them being a very high grade,

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high standard type of portfolio 
manager. 

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And you know, like I said, it's 
it's with success comes, I think

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definitely requires success. 
Shun. 

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I love that. 
I love that. 

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Right. 
So, you know, and a large point,

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I think, in terms of my overall 
success really stems from being 

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a single parent. 
So I raised my daughter. 

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Actually, let me rephrase that. 
I was your chauffeur. 

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I was reclaiming. 
I was the counselor. 

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You know, it really helped me 
multitask. 

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It really helped me develop high
management. 

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It really helped me focus on 
what is important in life. 

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And and you know, I have a very,
very learning mindset. 

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You know, I'm going to be the 
first one. 

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I tell you, I'm going to get 
most of most of everything 

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wrong. 
But whatever I get wrong, I will

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make sure I get it right or 
learn from it. 

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Yeah. 
So, so and we basically take 

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that approach to our overall 
portfolio management, right? 

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Yeah, we're not going to be 
perfect. 

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We're going to position on the 
tail end, position on the front 

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end. 
We're going to basically pick 

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industries. 
We're going to pick the wrong 

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industries. 
But at the same time, if you're 

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understanding why the 
performance was a little subpar 

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this month or this quarter, you 
learn from it and you learn from

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it and you reposition it. 
Yeah, I, I love that a lot of 

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similarities. 
Again, it's how I want to help 

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my team, how I help them get put
the a a players on the field and

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give them every possible thing I
can do to help them be 

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successful. 
I, I love that the the child 

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part. 
I have children too and, and 

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taking care of them. 
It's it's endless giving opposed

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to taking and it's not about me 
anymore. 

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I love what you're saying here. 
All right, let's ask you the 

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flip side of this, David. 
What are some timeless mistakes 

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either you've made, you've seen 
other people make, and how do 

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you learn from them so you don't
repeat them? 

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I think #1 is hubris above all. 
Yeah, you know, and the the 

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hubris element of, of finance 
and or entrepreneurship and or 

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success, you definitely need 
people around you that's going 

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to keep you grounded. 
Definitely. 

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And it helps having a teenage 
daughter. 

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By the way, A. 100% I. 
Mean 100. 

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Percent, yeah. 
She's going to reject, she's 

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going to basically tell me how 
it is. 

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And I'm going to tell you right 
now she's going to be always 

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right. 
And I think that the the hubris 

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element of success is the most 
detrimental to sustaining 

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success. 
And I think that's why, you 

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know, starting, you know, when 
we did the acquisition in 2020, 

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it was really about OK, success,
success, success, performance, 

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performance, performance. 
Eventually in 2023-2024 we got 

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to a point of being able to 
integrate, you know, successive 

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staffing, technology 
implementation. 

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You know, we don't want to toot 
our own horn, but 2024 we're in 

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the top this out in terms of 
performance of one of our 

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strategy. 
So I think it's really about the

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hubris element, understanding, 
respecting each other, really 

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saying that yeah, it's not about
me, it's about the team, it's 

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about the company. 
I want everyone to succeed to 

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within their wheelhouse, right, 
within what they envision 

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successes and, and people are 
all different, you know, I'm 

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sure, you know, with with all 
the different companies that 

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you're doing and the people you 
meet and the people that you 

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interview, you're seeing such a 
jambalaya of different people, 

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right? 
You're seeing people from this 

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background, that background 
understanding there's other 

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people from the hedge fund 
industry, there's people from, 

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you know, portfolio management, 
private equity. 

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So you know, understanding who 
are you dealing with? 

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Understanding, you know, the 
position of the staffing to 

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support sustainable performance 
success and, and keeping it 

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interesting, right. 
I think, you know, overall 

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that's kind of what I try to 
maintain and and that goes the 

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same for myself. 
I like to keep it interesting. 

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I like to keep, I really care 
about the people that, that I 

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work with, understanding their 
position, but trying to help 

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them balance out their 
lifestyles and, or career 

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pursuits. 
And, and you know, one of the 

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things that we actually do a lot
here is really about culture, 

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right? 
You know, we have a theory. 

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Depending on where you stand in 
terms of your sibling and or 

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only child, there are certain 
character tendencies people 

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have. 
So with that in mind, you know, 

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sometimes the last child is 
somewhat of a diva. 

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So you take the diva and put him
in a position of sustainable 

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performance. 
You've got the oldest child, 

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he's the go to guy. 
He's the guy that's always going

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to be there. 
Put him in a position of 

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dependency, the the other 
staffing, other people, they're 

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going to look to him day in and 
day out, week in, week out. 

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So understanding people's cult, 
you know, behavioral in line 

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with cultural as well as their 
situation lifestyle, I think is 

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our primary focus and and that 
helps alleviate any buying or 

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thinking of hubris and continue 
to engage people, right. 

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Yeah, that makes perfect sense. 
I love that. 

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So let's talk about leadership 
as a leader. 

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What makes a great leader? 
What are some lessons you've 

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learned about leadership that 
you'd like to share with the 

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audience? 
Definition of leadership, if you

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really think about it, if you're
a one man shop, you're not going

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to be a leader, right, right. 
Fundamentally, you know, I 

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always tell my guys kind of 
spinning off in terms of overall

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mindset with regards to 
financial success, right? 

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It's easier to earn an extra 
$10,000 than to save it, right? 

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So these are the little quotes I
say little kind of, you know, 

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reminders to my staff. 
And I think it's, it's a leader 

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is spending the time every day, 
every week, every month to 

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ranging from having someone on 
the back, ranging from, you 

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00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,960
know, critiquing his 
performance, ranging from, you 

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00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:11,920
know, complimenting him or her 
or, and, or critiquing or, or, 

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you know them. 
And fundamentally, I think, you 

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know, like I said earlier, you 
can't be the leader by yourself.

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So you have to genuinely. 
I think care, I think you have 

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to genuinely, really listen and 
genuinely carry a conversation. 

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And I think it goes back to me 
raising my daughter. 

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I love that no it. 
Was so powerful. 

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Right. 
So if you don't genuinely care 

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and don't listen to your 
daughter, trust me, they're 

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going to know. 
Yeah, in maintaining the 

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attention span, maintaining, you
know, their point of view and, 

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you know, kind of circles back 
to the initial is, yeah, it's 

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not about me. 
And you know, and I think being 

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00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,840
a leader has changed so much. 
You know, I mean, when I was 

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working at Northwest Mutual, 
Morgan Stanley, being leader was

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00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:17,480
all about, OK, I'm the boss, you
do what I need done and you're 

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my team member. 
No, I think leadership's kind of

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00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:26,200
evolved where it's about, OK, 
when we're working together, I'm

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00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:35,840
part of a team, but it's really 
about positioning, guiding and 

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00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,000
always kind of creating a little
momentum with regards to 

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people's in a perspective, 
mindset, a little attitude as I 

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00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,480
think the forceful leadership is
really dissipated now. 

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Yeah. 
They create 100%. 

314
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:55,360
Yeah. 
OK. 

315
00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:56,880
Thank you for that. 
Final question for you today, 

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00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,120
David, is what is the best piece
of advice you want to give the 

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00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:02,040
audience or? 
Your. 30 year old self. 

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00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:16,080
Wow, that's a toughie. 
Start with a 30 year old self. 

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00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:24,760
I would say wake up earlier. 
Love it right? 

320
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:34,000
You don't know everything. 
I I think it's really because of

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00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,720
technology nowadays you have to 
listen to everyone. 

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00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:44,800
You have to actually spend time 
listening to, you know, your 

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00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:50,400
grandparents, your parents, you 
have to listen to your your 10 

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00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,520
year old niece. 
You got to listen, you know, 

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00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,640
really kind of think about and 
digest from their perspective, 

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00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,400
right. 
And I think from a given that I 

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00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,800
think it really helps develop or
round out a personal personality

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00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,680
number one. 
And I think it's really about no

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00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,560
matter, you know, before doing 
this interview, I kind of looked

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00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:22,840
at my old resume CV and you kind
of think about, OK, wow, I've 

331
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:29,640
done a lot of work here. 
I think people need to actually 

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00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:38,280
be able to critique themselves 
as rational people more so and 

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00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,240
kind of understand, OK, when I 
look at this first name, what 

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00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,360
did I get out of this shop, 
right? 

335
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:50,280
What did I learn from this shop?
And, and seeing that development

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00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:56,000
is a thing is very productive. 
And you got to really take the 

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00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:01,400
time to kind of take, take some 
time, look at the experiences 

338
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,480
that you went through either at 
Northwest Mutual, Morgan 

339
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:10,760
Stanley, you know, in college 
and really think about, OK, my 

340
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:16,240
position correctly, you know, 
does my resume entail 

341
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,720
progression to the goal? 
I think more people, more and 

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00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,520
more people I think need to 
really assess their resume from 

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00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,960
the perspective of their goal 
and be able to rationally kind 

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00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,720
of assess the different risks 
that they're exposed to, right? 

345
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,720
And whether it's portfolio 
management, whether it's raising

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00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,920
a daughter, whether even doing 
this interview. 

347
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,880
I'm not perfect and I'm OK with 
that. 

348
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,880
But at the same time, there's a 
lot of things I'm proud of. 

349
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:54,320
Yep, makes. 
Perfect. 

350
00:24:54,680 --> 00:25:00,480
Yep, makes perfect. 
So I think success is different 

351
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,680
for different people in, in in 
financial industry, it's really 

352
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,400
about competitive performance. 
It's about you know, fee 

353
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,760
generation, P&L generation, 
absolute return. 

354
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:18,520
I think you know, and going back
to the resume you want to assess

355
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,920
whether or not is my 
professional standards getting 

356
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,400
that much better with every job 
and what is that standard, 

357
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,720
right. 
So I think for in in, you know, 

358
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,560
there's a lot of younger people 
from, you know, my undergrad and

359
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,240
so forth that, you know, they 
would ask me for advice. 

360
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,160
They would ask me how do I get 
to the point you're at? 

361
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,680
And I would say, you know, I'm 
not even sure where I'm at. 

362
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,320
I'm just enjoying the people 
that surround me making the most

363
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,920
of it. 
And as a byproduct, I got 

364
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,320
successful. 
That's right. 

365
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,560
Yeah, super powerful. 
Well, David, thank you so much 

366
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,840
for taking the time. 
Congrats on your success and 

367
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:03,600
this was absolutely fantastic. 
Thank you. 

368
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,680
Thank you, Adam. 
Definitely a pleasure.