Welcome back to the Youth Ministry Mindset Podcast season
2 with voices from Alpha and Y Disciple Out of Net Ministries.
My name is Jordan but I'm joined by some amazing friends and Co
hosts. I'm Jason Kidd and.
I'm Annie Grandel. And today, we are joined by our
friend Chris Wesley. I'm Annie.
Give us like a one sentence summary.
What are we talking about? Why are we talking about it?
And who is Chris? Great.
So this episode we're talking about the role and the power of
sponsors in the confirmation process in particularly when
we're talking about preparation. I am so excited that Chris is
joining us for this content. When I was a parish youth
minister, there was this book, this new book that came out
about confirmation, which there have been a lot of books about
youth ministry, most of them coming from the Protestant
space. And this book came out called
Rebuilding Confirmation. And it was like this time bomb
in my brain that went off because it poked at some of the
things that I didn't realize needed poking.
When I thought about the problem with confirmation, I thought
about curriculum. Yeah, I was.
I was convinced that it was we just needed to do curriculum
better or truer or writer somehow.
And so I just kept trying to. Writer a word.
It is now. OK, it is because in Annie's
brain when she was 24, she said it and therefore it is.
I said a lot of things when I was 24 that I no longer agreed.
OK, sorry. Keep going.
It was writer. It was not do it writer, Dang
it. And this book came out by Chris
Wesley and he was he was asking us to re examine why we did so
many of the things that we had quote always done it that way.
And I took it to my pastor or my associate pastor, my Dre and
said, can we start blowing some stuff up because I think we're
wasting our time. And one of the things that
caught my attention the most was the conversation around sponsors
and mentorship in confirmation. So I could think of no better
guest to talk about this particular particular content.
Amazing. So let's get him in.
Great, Chris. Thanks for joining us.
Hey, hey everyone. How's it going?
Living our best life, you know. Awesome, awesome fresh coffee.
It's. The morning I know.
But no, everything is great here in the Baltimore area.
So just excited to have this conversation.
As I warned Annie before, this is a, this is a triggering
subject for me on many different levels.
So you know, I, I, I guess you guys are going to have to rate
this not friendly for kids on, on the podcast websites.
No, I'm just kidding. I, I hope this is informative
and helpful. So I really do.
I mean, I'm staking my career on it.
So let's go. Let's do this.
If you need to, if you need to find a safe space you know in
the middle, take a little time out you can.
There you go. Thanks, Jason.
I appreciate that. Yeah, I thought you could be
like, come to Alpha for the same place.
I was like, what are you doing, Jason?
Well, and the thing I'm excited about for this conversation, and
so one of the things I really respect about you, Chris, is
you've not been doing like side work in ministry.
You've been working in a parish up until very recently.
So you know what it's like on the ground.
This isn't just theory. And I think that gives you so
much credibility. So I'm just excited to share
that with our audience. I appreciate that.
Thank you. Thank you.
So we asked this question to everyone to kick it off.
Who's your confirmation St. I don't really technically have
one I So for me, my I'll, I'll get straight to the answer and
then I'll tell the story. So for me, my confirmation name
is Ezekiel and so a biblical name.
And I picked it for two reasons. One, my mom was really on me
about picking a name. And so I just decided to engage
in a game of Bible roulette and you know, ironically, the first
first name that popped up was God, which she clearly made it
clear that I could not choose that as my confirmation name.
So we did it again. That's a great mom right there.
Yeah, that's a great mom. Great mom there.
And then it landed on the name Ezekiel.
And I got so excited about Ezekiel because one of my
favorite passages, at least I thought it was one of my
favorite passages, comes from Ezekiel, and I want to read it
for you all. And it goes.
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the
inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds
the weak through the valley of darkness for his truly his
brother's keeper and the Finder of lost children.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious
anger those who attempted to poison and destroy my brothers.
And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance
upon thee. That's Ezekiel 2517, according
to Samuel L Jackson in the movie Pulp Fiction, which at the time,
at the time I didn't know, was not actually in Scripture.
But I thought that was pretty, you know, bad ass.
And, and so I was like, you know what, I'm going to go with that
Ezekiel name. So for a long, long time before
I actually read Scripture, I thought Ezekiel was, you know,
pretty bad ass. But, you know, here's the thing.
Too little did I know that God was playing the joke on me.
Because if there's anything that speaks to ministry, it's like
speaking to dry bones and trusting in the Holy Spirit to
bring flesh into those bones. So God got the last laugh.
But so yeah, my confirmation name is Ezekiel.
That is amazing. OK, Can I ask a clarifying
question? Did you actually go to your mom
and say God? I want my confirmation St. to be
God because I really hope that part's true.
Annie, come on, I was a 15 year old boy.
Of course I said that, you know, and I said it with confidence.
And you know, even though she's 5 foot 3 and I was probably 5-11
at the time, I was still scared of her.
And so she reminded me, she will strike down upon thee with great
vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and
destroy my brothers. And so you know, she quoted
Samuel Jackson back to me. With that so good.
Well, tell us, give us a little background of of your experience
in ministry for those that that aren't familiar with you.
Yeah, Thanks, Jason. So as Andy mentioned, I just
completed about 20 years of parish ministry.
For the last 20 years I worked for primarily 2 parishes, Church
in the Nativity and Timonium and then Saint Joseph's Parish in
Cockeysville, MD and never had my intention of doing full time
ministry. Needed a job after my missionary
year with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps here in Baltimore and I
just knew I needed a job. Long story short, fell in love
with ministry. Had really no professional
formation or clue so learned a lot on the job.
Lots of credit to nativity who invested a whole lot in me going
to conferences, reading books, things like that.
Lots of support there to really, you know, grow in this
profession. Lots of networking and things
along those lines. I mean, it grew up Catholic my
whole entire life and you know, as as I shared with my
confirmation name story, some of it needed to be corrected along
the way, which that happened. But started out in middle school
ministry for about two years and then pretty much after that
started to oversee all of high school and middle school
ministry. And my time at Nativity, which
included confirmation when I went to Saint Joe's, started out
in youth ministry there and then eventually oversaw all
catechesis for adults, youth and and children.
What was your favorite? What was my favorite middle
school ministry? Dude, middle school, thank you.
I mean, I love middle schoolers. Yes.
I mean, you know, if you can figure out middle school
ministry, you can figure out do anything.
Yeah. No, it's anything you do,
anything. I love that.
Alright, so before we jump into this topic of sponsors, what is
a sponsor? Because when I think of great
sponsorship, I think of Chick-fil-A.
They're great sponsors for anything that I do.
So you're. Thinking Platters.
So you're thinking corporate sponsors?
I'm thinking like, I'm gonna sponsor your event.
And so a sponsor. I know this little common
language, probably in the space of confirmation, but for people
who are like me, what is a sponsor?
Like why and why a sponsor? Yeah, if you're talking about
good sponsorship, Chick-fil-A for sure.
If you're talking about good chicken, it's found elsewhere.
But we'll get back to that end of time sponsorship.
Yeah, those are fighting words. So we got to go back to it real
fast before we can't go past that.
OK. Rate, rate, rate.
Chick-fil-A. Top three, top three chicken
places, top three, top three. Yeah.
Popeyes, Garbage chicken churches and KFC.
Oh, I'm just, I'm just. No, I'm just saying that.
I'm just saying that to KFC. I'm just.
Saying that to my soul. I'm just saying.
This will stink. This is a dagger.
No, no, not it. OK.
I mean, I, I don't know, it all depends what mood I'm in for.
But you want to talk about confirmation?
I think we'll have a chicken podcast conversation a little
bit later on. How about that?
Oh good. OK.
Yeah. All right.
OK. OK.
What is the sponsor? And why we do this?
Yeah, you know, it, it, it is kind of fine because that is a
great question, a question that I feel like everyone asks but no
one answers. And so for me, I mean, it, it's
kind of funny that it's a question we don't know the
answer to when it's clearly laid out in Canon law.
Now, I'm not expecting people to bring up Canon law, you know,
all the time or read Canon law because it is a pretty hefty
book. But it says right in Canon 892,
the primary responsibility of a sponsor is to provide the
candidate prayerful support and guidance in his or her Christian
walk, and to take care of that the confirmed person behaves as
a true witness of Christ and faithfully fulfills the
obligations inherent in this sacrament.
And again, that's Canon 892. And so basically it's a lifelong
commitment. It's someone who's supposed to
accompany, walk alongside the young person who is not just
going through the Sacramento prep, but even after the
preparations done, even after the sacraments received, you
know, Jesus sends us out two by two.
We're supposed to live life together.
And so a sponsor is that person who's not like necessarily your
Obi Wan Kenobi or your guru in this regards, but that person
who is there to hold you accountable, to pick you up, to
lead you, to guide you, to witness what it means to have
faith. And I know that might sound like
a lot and even that definition might seem a little bit heavy,
but it's really not that complicated.
And we've either like ignored it completely in the church or
we've made it into something that's not supposed to be.
And I think we tend to blame families a lot by saying, oh,
you're just picking someone who's honorary.
But like, we don't really tackle that well.
And while I think it's an issue in confirmation, it's also an
issue when we talk about godparents in baptism because
it's not too different in that regards.
So, you know, in short, a a sponsor of someone who is
committing, you know, through life to walk with this person in
their faith journey. And I mean that's as simple as
you can as you can look at it. Is a sponsor or does it have to
be older? No, I don't think it has to be
someone who's older. I, I love intergenerational
relationships. I think those have a place in
youth ministry, in ministry with young people.
But you know, when I'm looking at the definition here, it it's
not, you know, throughout the years I've done confirmation
prep with people. I've seen sibling relationships
where you know, someone's maybe 2 years older than their sibling
receiving it, where it's that's a great sponsor relationship,
cousins, classmates, you know, maybe someone received it a
little bit sooner than the other.
And again, I don't want to diminish like adults, but the
intergenerational relationship is valuable for sure.
But I don't think that's necessary for a.
Sponsor. So a sponsor doesn't have to be.
Yeah, it can. It can be in in that but but
yeah. But I will say you you use the
keyword mature and not to confuse maturity with age, but
maturity is definitely it needs to be someone who is mature in
their faith. Yeah, Yep.
Absolutely. Well, and I love how you
highlighted just, I mean, Canon law highlights, but I like that
you put a spotlight on it, that it's, it's a lifelong commitment
that this isn't merely ceremonial, right, That that the
role of the sponsor is to walk with them after confirmation.
And that's just been such a common theme in all the
conversations we've been having is that that need for
accompaniment in especially in the confirmation process.
So talk to us about like what would be your tips on better
leveraging that sponsor relationship?
Yeah. I mean, I think that's a great
question because I think it's not so simple as what we can do
individually. One of the reasons why like I'm
glad you guys were talking about this is because I think we have
to be talking about this, you know, on a larger level, whether
it's nationally or, you know, even beyond that.
Because I think we have tinkered too much with confirmation prep
where we, I think we have to go back on a national level, but
also in our churches and, and try to re educate people on what
it means to be a sponsor. And so, you know, to really go
back when you're looking at baptismal prep, you know, and
talking to the parents about the vision and the path that they
have for their kids, you know, and not just with godparents,
but saying like, hey, down the line, when they receive
confirmation, you know, you want to make sure that there are men
and women in their lives that exemplify their faith.
And those are people that you want them to, to pick to be
their sponsor. Right.
If, if, if we're going to make confirmation prep a point where
young people are making decisions, one of those big
decisions is picking who that that person is that's going to
accompany them along this lifelong journey.
So I think, I think when we have to kind of educate people on
that from a parish standpoint, I think when you have these
initial information meetings for confirmation prep or even OCIA
or, you know, things along those lines, it's, it's talking about
that, yes, family is great because I think there's that
built in the fact that we're going to see family, you know, a
lot more family is accessible, friends are accessible and
everything like that. But it's also encourage them to
look at people in the parish. And so if they're like, well, I
don't really know anyone, then ask them the question like how
involved are you? And, and when I mean ask them, I
mean parents and, and students as well, like if they're not
involved in small groups, if they're not involved in ministry
or outreach, they're not surrounding themselves with
other mature Catholics in their Catholic faith.
And so I think if you're a DREA youth minister, confirmation
coordinator, pastor, listening to this or watching this, I
think it's essential for you to say, like, how are you creating
community so that people in our congregation are interacting
with other Catholics who are exemplifying their faith?
Because I'll tell you what, Like when a parent comes to me and
says, Chris, I'm really struggling to find a sponsor for
my son or my daughter, I'm like, well, is there someone in the
parish that you know of? And when that light bulb goes
off where they're like, oh, yeah, I serve with so and so, or
there's this other family, then it kind of opens that up.
And that was something where personally, I think, Andy, I was
sharing this with you. My, my, my oldest son just got
confirmed a couple weeks ago. And that was a huge conversation
in our family was who his sponsor was going to be.
And he ended up picking his middle school small group later,
Brian, And which was really exciting because here was
someone that my son felt was speaking into his life about
faith. He was someone that my wife and
I already knew and had trust with.
And, you know, yeah, it was just kind of exciting for him to pick
someone that was in the church that he's going to see a lot
more because just, you know, a little bit of context.
My wife and I are from out outside the Baltimore area.
All of our family lives, you know, hours away.
And so for our son to have someone who's accessible and
nearby was just was rewarding in that way.
Yeah. Yeah, that's.
Great. I mean, this, this Harkins back
to, to some of the conversation we were having around the
research that says young people need 5 faithful witnesses to
invest in them, accompany them in order to, to have faith
coming out of college. And so the, the sponsor role,
what I'm hearing from you is that it's, it's not like a, a
title, you know, in, in like, oh, this is, this is somebody
who's cool, but rather I see Christ at work in you and, and I
want to learn more of that. Yeah, yeah.
It, it, it's definitely not a title and kind of going back to
the original question too of what we can do.
I think we have to stop, not stop.
But I, I think it's good to bring parents along the process
and confirmation, but really kind of put focus our investment
in the sponsors as well. Like we invest in the kids.
I think that's important. Invest in the students, invest
in the candidate, but invest in the sponsors too.
Because you know, it's kind of like, Hey, congratulations, you
got asked to be a sponsor. And 1st question sponsors will
ask is, well, what does that mean?
What do I do? And, you know, often times we're
just like, just hang tight and we'll tell you when rehearsal in
the mass is right. And and then it's like good luck
where I think it's kind of like, OK, how do we help them through
that? And so, you know, one of the
ways that one of the ways that my parishes have done that, so a
nativity, we had a mentoring program where can't.
And as much as I love that program, we didn't do this as
effectively with sponsors as we should have.
But one of the things that we did with the candidates is the
candidates met one on two or two on one with someone we call the
mentor. And those mentors met with the
candidates about 6 times throughout the preparation.
And those mimicked what a sponsor relationship looked like
because we wanted candidates to know what it meant to like meet
with someone you know individually with their faith
and and grow in that. We never did a great job of
translating that over to this is what you should do with your
sponsor. But like we at least introduce
them to that. When I was at Saint Joe's, what
we really started to do was cater a lot of our materials and
our content to sponsors. And so initially, like you
cannot sign up. I mean, you could, but we really
wanted you to name and have your contact information of your
sponsor before the whole process began.
And so sponsors were a part of the process right from the very
beginning, you know, before the retreat, because we want
sponsors to know this is what we're doing on the retreat,
right? Letters to your candidates on
the retreat and then. We would take breaks in our
classes or our small groups with the candidates where the
sponsors were just meant to meet with the candidates and we
provided materials. My team and I were accessible
for sponsors. You needed coaching or training
on like how to talk to them about their faith.
And we really, really emphasize that sponsors take your your
candidates out for a bite to eat or a cup of coffee or go for a
walk or just, you know, something that was natural and
casual to talk about their faith.
You know, if it was an aunt and her uncle or a grandparent that
lived, you know, across the country, we talked about what
that looked like on Zoom, but then take advantage during those
holidays when you were in person in that regards.
And so we started to cater a lot of our training towards sponsors
and candidates, how they interacted so that they would
continue those relationships beyond confirmation prep.
And but that wasn't something we could do overnight because the
concept when we first introduced it was so foreign that people
kind of scoffed at it or mailed it in and everything like that.
And was something overtime where we kind of had to just slowly
build that into the culture. And so probably about, you know,
eight years of doing that at my last parish, we started to see a
little bit more of that engagement than we took in the
1st. Years for this cultural reality
to set in for you. To get to where, sorry to get to
where it needed to be, but like you know, there's still a lot
more. And I think that's also another
mistake that we make in confirmation prep is we think we
can make the change within a year or or two or three.
Yeah, Yep, yeah. And then what?
I'm just curious as this cultural norm set in, what what
stirred in the parish beyond just the young people and
people, potential sponsors. Is there something else that was
there? Yes and no.
You know, because here's the thing.
He's gonna. Say something edgy, here it
comes, I'm ready for it. The whole parish has to buy into
this kind of concept. So at my first parish there was
that buy in and you saw more of an investment in youth ministry
and next generation ministry. At my second parish saw some of
that transformation in the youth and children's ministry because
when we started to really clarify that people could be
more than just a catechist that shows up on Sunday and teaches
the faith, you saw a little bit more of buying and ownership,
unfortunately. And you know, I love it.
It's my current parish today and everything like that.
I love it and everything. There just isn't the same
investment in that that you see elsewhere.
So even though we were seeing a change in the way that we did
confirmation prep and we were seeing, I, I will say the one
fruit that we were able to see is retention of young people in
our ministry. They weren't dropping off after,
that's a major, but like for the rest of the congregation since
it wasn't cascaded and communicated throughout, you'd
have to look hard to see some of those fruits.
Sure. So I'm thinking about people
listening to this like the BI vocational youth minister, the
person who has a day job and is running the youth ministry and
confirmation prep at their their parish or they're in a parish
where you say like there's just not the buy in.
What is something they can do? Because you're talking about,
and we're all talking about how culture change takes a really
long time, which is true. So what's something practical
they can do right now? Yeah, You know, if you and, and
if you've got a, a small team, whether you have, you know, 20
candidates or 200 candidates, if you have a small team, the best
thing you can do is train that team to train sponsors.
That's the easiest, simple, most scalable and affordable way to
do that Because, listen, parents are already invested in the
sponsors. Sponsors are already invested in
the family. And, you know, there's probably
less hoops to jump through with how and when they can meet.
They can arrange that to their schedule.
And so if I were to start over again in a parish where let's
just say I had four people who were on my confirmation team, I
would have those four people develop a caseload of X amount
of people that were sponsors or families.
And their job was wasn't necessarily to teach the faith
in a classroom setting, but to give sponsors the materials that
they needed to meet one-on-one or, you know, in whatever kind
of saying with the parents and the kid, you know, to help them
grow in their faith. I think that would be.
I would build my program around that kind of framework.
That's great. I have a potentially weird
question because. Is it about chicken?
Nope. OK, have you ever had to fire a
sponsor? Oh yeah, I mean, there have been
good. Question.
I mean, you know, it's it's kind of like once in a while you'll
get, hey, we picked so and so and you're like, oh, who are
they? And they're like, oh, it's my
aunt who is was, you know, raised in the Catholic faith,
but now is a Wiccan, or I mean. That'd be a bad sponsored.
Yeah. And that's where you're just
like, well, that's not really the point.
The point is not finding someone who you know, like and, and and
that's where you're just like, hey, it's a good person.
This is a great person, you know, but this is not what we're
looking for in regards to a sponsor.
You know, it's really hard when people come back to you and they
want like a step parent or, you know, something along those
lines where you're just kind of like, yeah, they're not
technically your parents, but it's still kind of that parental
role. And you're really trying to,
like what I tried to do is really push people to think
beyond, you know, and granted, it's, it's written out in the
right and what not what, who and what you should choose, but like
really trying to expand people to think about someone that
helps them grow in their Catholic faith.
There's been once or twice where there's a sponsor who I'm just
like, this person's just mailing it in.
And it's not like you fire them because you can't really fire a
sponsor, but you can, you can really challenge and encourage
the candidate to, to reconsider who they pick.
And, and that's the other thing too, is like, even though you
want them part of the whole preparation process, I told
candidates like you might go through this three months and be
like, this is not the right person for me, but so, and so is
that's OK. Like figure it out, you know,
now. And even if that person ends up
like walking away from the faith two weeks after you received
confirmation, at least you know what you're looking for now in a
sponsor, right? And and so again, like the
whole, the whole idea of having a sponsor is, is someone who's
going to help you walk in faith and get to know Christ and, and,
and just continue to grow as a disciple of Jesus Christ.
So, so you're, you're playing the long game, you're, you're
looking at this much in a, in a larger context.
And you know, for that youth minister or that parent that was
asked to do confirmation this year, this is an opportunity to,
to pull in some additional mentors to, to have this ongoing
accompaniment. And in part of what the, the the
confirmation leader is, is trying to do is help these
sponsors and and parents have conversations of faith and life
and build relationship so that long term, even after the
sacrament in that Mister Goji period, people can, can continue
growing, asking questions when they go to college, when they
something comes up in life and they're struggling.
Where are you God? They have someone to turn to and
process. Yeah.
I mean, you're talking too much sense though.
I mean, it's like, you know, if there's 10, sorry, go ahead.
No. No, no, I think it's it's I
think it's also fair to say this is clearly the better way, but
it's a harder way. And oh, oh, you're giving me a
face like it might not be harder.
It's, it's not, it's, it's one of those things where we think
it's harder. But it's like, you know, if I
were to walk in to a parish and sit down with a, a youth
minister or Dre who's really on the fringes and said, hey,
listen, let's just slow this down.
I mean, and I'm giving you permission.
Your pastor's giving you permission, your Bishop's giving
you permission to slow this down.
I think so many people would just like start crying, you
know, and you know, then saying where can we get some really
good chicken? Because I just need to give it a
feeling. No, but in all seriousness, it's
I think it's like one of those things where people would
embrace that. And so if there's one message
that I would just want to get out there and I feel like I need
to get it out there is like, let's just stop tinkering with
confirmation so that we can play the long game.
And it's just like, if, if anything, just stop trying to
move something around that it really doesn't help.
And in fact, I'd say the more we make these drastic changes like
changing the age of confirmation, changing some of
the the the guidelines and things like that, I think it
actually causes more damage and sets us back farther than than
anything else that we would do. Because the focus is an outcome
and not on the person. You got it.
Yeah, Yeah. OK.
Can you tell us a story, as you've embraced the slower
approach that you're just like, that is a story I hang onto that
makes me realize that this is a better way to kind of go about
doing confirmation. For me, like there was this one
student I had in my first parachute at Nativity and he,
you know, he, he was, he was somewhat involved in everything
like that, but, you know, hit college really kind of struggled
with some things, some some really big life issues and, and
everything. And I had stayed in touch with
him, you know, just because I had developed a good
relationship. But when he really started to
struggle, you know, one of the, when I was checking in, I was
like, who are you talking to? One of the names he mentioned
was his confirmation sponsor. And I was just like, this was
like 6-7 years after he had received the sacrament.
And, and so for me, like, you know, I've heard a, a couple of
those stories. And so, like, it's not I, I take
joy in the fact that anytime I meet a former student, whether
they're now in their 30s or their 20s or, you know, just
even a couple years after and they talk about still having a
relationship was someone that was introduced to them in, in,
in youth ministry, whether it's a small group leader or a
sponsor or something along those lines.
You know, I, I, I just think that's, that's beautiful, right?
Because what that means that that's affirmation for for
myself and the team and what we were trying to do, you know,
that that's fruit to the fact that we were trying to create
opportunities where young people could meet other Christ
followers, where they can meet people who could walk with them
in faith. And the fact that they still
have these relationships with those people, just just it's so
rewarding in that aspect. And so, yeah, for me, I'd say
that's like one of those ultimate.
Ultimate wins and you can't force a relationship, but you
can set the environment for it, right?
That's what you did. You set the environment and it
it grew because there's a desire on both ends there.
Yeah. Exactly.
That's beautiful, man. Thanks.
So question for you, all of this experience that you have and
again very recent experience, if you could go back and do
anything differently when it comes to confirmation, what,
what would that be? If I were to go back and change
anything, I think I think at my first parish I would have
emphasized sponsors a little bit more.
That was something that I, I, you know, it didn't really come
come to understand until, you know, my last couple years
there. And I think the mentorship
program that you know, is described in rebuilding
confirmation and and whatnot, I think I would have emphasize
that a little bit earlier. And that's why I think
leveraging the sponsor is so key because that's not someone that
I'm necessarily saying, hey, here's someone you can entrust
your kids with. That's something that the family
and the parent is putting it in. So if you want to put more
ownership on the, on the parents, it's asking them to
help their young person pick a sponsor that you can give
materials to and have them evaluate whether this is
fruitful or not in that regards. And so I think I would have, you
know, going back, if there were one thing that I would change or
emphasize more, it's that especially now having gone
through this as a parent, you know, even though it was very
clear who my son was going to pick and everything like that,
I, I recognized it was kind of tough to walk through this with
Brian and, and just be like, Hey, this is what you should do
with my son. And you know, like this is,
these are the expectations that we have as parents.
This is the expectation that he has.
What are your expectations and things along those lines?
And so, yeah, I mean, I think I would have clarified that more,
but I, I don't know. Again, I know that now.
I don't think I would have known that without going through some
of these successes and failures. For sure.
So can you talk to us about practically how we can
incorporate sponsors? Volunteer running confirmation?
Maybe a person that is a mom that has their own kids and is
like, oh I want this to work really well, but I know sponsors
important. I don't know what to do.
What do I? Do yeah, what's something
practical they can do to to pull the sponsors into the process?
Yeah, I think it's if you're a volunteer, especially like don't
do the classes and give all that curriculum and material to the
sponsors, not to the parents, to the sponsors and make yourself
accessible to the sponsors, right.
And so if mom or dad are struggling to help their young
person find a sponsor, you know, go around your congregation and
find people who might be willing to be a sponsor.
You know, that's that's an, and you know, even talk to your
pastor about it too, you know, and just say like, Hey, are
there this family is really struggling to find a sponsor.
Is there anyone in the parish that you know, that I could sit
down with and maybe sit down with this family with and help
them find a sponsor And and then, you know, and then tell
people like, Hey, listen, let's if if we can't figure this out,
let's spend the next year to figure this out so your child
can get confirmed next year. You know, I think that's the
other thing. Now I know people are hearing
that and saying that sounds great, Chris, you know, but
that's just impossible because someone's going to say, my kid
needs to get confirmed now and everything like that.
But I think it's like, even if you can't communicate to that
person, you still have to have that conversation.
And that goes back to what I was saying before with where this
takes years to do that is guiding people, you know,
protecting the sacrament, yet making it accessible to people.
It just takes years and years of communicating that culture to
them and not creating like, you know, a, a, a line that divides,
but more of like, all right, if it didn't work with this person
where they're like, no, no thanks.
I just want to rush through this then, you know, OK, that's one
thing. But the more you communicate
that and create that into the culture and put that, you know,
in your literature when people are registering for confirmation
and your information meetings and your training meetings and
your confirmation retreat, whatever it might be, just make
sure you're you're communicating this vision over and over and
over again and you will see those changes take place.
Well, I love your idea of having almost a pool of potential
sponsors for people who are struggling.
Like, hey, there's this great person in the parish who wants
to be engaged with young people somehow.
Here's a really practical way they can do that.
It's a great way to leverage not just sponsors, but the rest of
the parish community. I think that's a great idea.
Well, and Annie, going back to that too, one of the first names
that I always ask people too is like, well, what about their
catechists from, you know, elementary school, you know,
elementary age or, you know, even like this is one of the
reasons why I, I think it is a horrible idea.
When people combine youth ministry with confirmation prep,
they are two separate things. They should never be they, they
should complement one another, but they should not be dependent
on one another. And that's where, again, like my
son was able to find his middle school small group leader to be
his confirmation sponsor because they were totally separate
programs. And he saw Brian not as his
teacher, but as a sponsor, someone who could walk with him
in his faith. And so I think that's a I'd
rather see parishes and diocese put the effort into creating
separate ministries between confirmation and youth ministry
and children's ministry, then moving the age around in that
regards. I want to go back to, to
something you said and frankly, a mistake I made for a long
time, which was I collected the, the sponsors and got that
information right before I needed to make the certificates
that, that that's a fail. And also then there's, you know,
people forget. So you're like down to the wire
and it's messy. But what you're saying is at the
very beginning, clarify the expectation of the sponsors.
What what kind of person it's, it's a disciple and, and then
what, what they're going to be involved in this process to the
sacrament and after so that that clear expectation and, and then
finding a way within the the, the preparation to set the table
for that, that relationship that that Jordan was talking about to
begin to flourish, right? That that soil is tilled.
And now you're helping have the the confirmation in the in the
teen like, like have questions to hear like about their like
tell me about your faith journey.
What what was your confirmation? Like?
What was your confirmation saying you're you're priming the
pump to to help nurture those those conversations?
Yeah, you know, and, and yeah, I appreciate you saying that
'cause it also makes me think about the fact that, you know,
if you can't, if they can't pick their sponsors before they sign
up for confirmation, then make the first part of confirmation
prep them finding a sponsor, right.
If we're preparing these young people for confirmation, the,
the role of sponsor is really to start taking place after
receiving the sacrament. So, you know, why aren't we
making that a part of the preparation process of like how
do you find, you know, and and this, this.
Is a little bit different than what I'm doing, but I'm just
kind of thinking about aloud is like, you know, how why aren't
we sitting down with kids and teen or teens and, and parents
or candidates and parents and saying like, this is what you
need to look for in a sponsor, you know?
And so your first assignment in confirmation prep is to find
that sponsor and then and have that conversation with that
sponsor about what he or she is meant to do.
And and then to your point, yeah, like tell them it's
witnessing the faith, it's reminding them of the gifts of
the Holy Spirit. You know, it's things like that.
I mean, if confirmation prep was really just focused on preparing
the sponsor to, you know, walk with that candidate, I think
that would just be that that would be just as impactful as
having the sponsor there right at the beginning.
Well, Chris, thank you so much. This has been.
Amazing. Yeah, great, great conversation.
Where can people find you? So easiest place to find me is
Marathon youthministry.com. That's our website on social
media at Marathon Youth Ministry or some variation of that,
especially on Instagram or Facebook and, and LinkedIn.
You can just look for me, Christopher Wesley there.
But Marathon youthministry.com is the best place to go and you
can sign up for newsletter and hear more of my thoughts and and
feelings on things like confirmation as well as other
things about church as well. All right, my man.
So we're going to end with the last question which we've asked
every guest so far and we are going to compare your answer for
seven us, I'm just kidding, we're not.
But what is your one piece of advice to every listener that's
listening to this regarding confirmation?
And it doesn't have to be about sponsors, it give me anything.
My piece of advice is play the long game, you know, going back
to what Jason was saying. So it's really Jason's advice,
you know, but don't be frustrated if you don't reach
the mountaintop and you're one, you're 2, you're three.
If you're a pastor, you know, recognize that this is a long
term investment. So help your Youth minister Dre
by investing in a community where people can find sponsors
or just role models or and nurture that faith beyond
confirmation. Awesome.
Thank you so much. You've been such a gift.
Thank you for bringing your whole self to this and thanks
for your passion for young people, for especially middle
schoolers and and just for rallying the church together to
love young people really well. Appreciate you man.
Hey, not a problem. Thank you all and keep having
these conversations. I love that, you know, I love
that you guys are talking about this subject and other things.
There's not enough resources for youth ministers out there.
And so like I, I just love that you're all partnering together
to do this. So keep it up.
Yeah. Thanks.
Thanks, Chris. That was, that was a great
conversation. I just, I, I really respect
Chris's perspective. You know, one of the things he
was saying about like give yourself, give yourself a chance
to slow down. It's actually one of the things
that I that he specifically inspired me to do in
confirmation when I read that book, he's like, if you're
spending all of your time tracking like requirements down
that they're not doing, is that really the best stewardship?
And I'm almost certain that's the word he uses stewardship.
And I, I took that book. I literally walked in with that
book into my DRE's office and I said can we stop?
What's the book called again? Rebuilding confirmation get it
on Amazon and my my Dre looked at me and said yes, because it
was my time and it was our administrative assistants time
spent hours of tracking this stuff down.
So just love that, that permission to just slow down and
and and stop for a minute. And this has been a common theme
for us as we've talked to different people and probably
people you will hear about, but then also people that we've
talked to individually about confirmations, like what are you
doing? It's like we had to slow down.
Yeah, reexamine it. Yeah, we've made it this machine
and it's like it's not bearing the fruit that we.
Have well, I think one thing too that we should probably say out
loud when we've, I think we've said this before, but we make
sure we say, especially when this topic comes up about
slowing down is you have to give permission to yourself to slow
down. The outcome isn't the measure of
your value in ministry. And so there are a lot of things
that only Jesus can control. And so when we take the posture
of handing over control, sometimes it looks like slowing
down. And that's good.
It's good for our own souls, but it's also going to be really
good for the people that are in the ministry that we're holding,
yeah. So and if you have a savior
complex like I did where you're controlling all.
Of you to me at this. Point where, where, where,
where? Frankly, like I, I was very
happy to be the person up front doing all the work, doing all
the teaching, doing all the because I'm going to save these
young people. And it wasn't bad.
It wasn't a fashion thing. It wasn't like it wasn't like
mischievous or but it just yeah, it.
Was misplaced like I and I can say that I'm not saying that to
you, I'm saying that to my younger youth totally self,
yeah. I would say it's every youth
minister. But now, Now, now what we're
hearing is, oh, actually, we want to help other people,
invest in young people, be witnesses.
And so if you're, if you're got another job and you're doing
this confirmation preparation, delegate, empower, pull in,
remind parents, remind sponsors that, oh, if you're looking for
me to do all of this, you're at the wrong place.
My job is to help you have these conversations that that happen
now and later. And I think one of the important
things he was was getting at is, is just that when it comes to
sponsors, it's an opportunity for ministry leaders to multiply
themselves, right? Because one youth minister by
vocational minister, Dre Pastor cannot accompany 150
confirmation students. So how do we bring more adults
in and empower them to be Co youth ministers and, and
sponsors are a perfect place to do that.
And it doesn't have to be complicated.
It doesn't have to be onerous on their time.
It just has to be intentional. All right, so we would just went
through this whole thing together and I want you guys to
go back to your younger selves of when you were running
confirmation and think of the times when you were freaking
out. Like I have to do confirmation
now. And Jason, you're like, what?
Really like confirmation? You hear this podcast.
What would you do? What would you tell your younger
self to do in that moment? Yeah, I think, I think getting
very clear expectations for the parents and the sponsors that
that's upfront and then having a conversation.
So that's on like the website that's on, you know, whatever
the registration is and then having a conversation with them
around this. You know, so it's like in some
of this, it doesn't have to be complicated, right, Because
people are busy. We're not asking the sponsor to,
to, but you know what, the sponsor should be going to mass.
And so, hey, why don't you go to mass with this person?
You're a company, you know, oh, you're going to have a meal.
Well, invite that student over to share a meal.
Everybody's got to eat. So we don't have to like
overthink it. We just want to nurture this
relationship and and simple things you can do whatever the
the the discussion questions that are happening, have those
conversations continue with the sponsor.
So what I hear you saying is increase intentionality ahead of
the confirmation prep and then almost create like a list, not a
list, but expectations on how to get the most out of being a
sponsor. Being a sponsor is amazing.
Here's how you can get the most out of it in the relationship
with when you're sponsoring. Yeah, OK.
And pray for that student, like like that's probably the number
one thing, right? Like how are we lifting them up
through this journey? Yeah, OK, so that's what Jason
would do. Annie, what about you?
And this is 24 year old Annie. This is 24 year old Annie in an.
Youth ministry, all of a sudden I have to do confirmation.
Mostly her wardrobe choices, but I'd like to start.
There can we get a picture or two of that that?
'D be fun. Gosh.
That's never crossed my mind. Yeah, wardrobe choices.
Yeah, we don't think about that. No, I.
Think one of the things that I would do in listening to this is
help be be a bridge for young people and families in finding
sponsors so frequently. I would get that like I I don't
have a lot of Catholic family members.
We just moved here. We just moved here and I don't
have a lot of Catholic family members.
Like instead of just being like deal or ask your small group
leader, like look bigger, look at the community and say, Hey,
can I connect you with somebody and, and be that bridge and be
that multiplier rather than putting it all on myself.
And then when things didn't go well, putting it all on them.
Yeah, that's good. So you can you how would you
practically do that? Cuz you can have the desire for
it. How would you practically become
that bridge? What would you need to shift and
adjust to do that? Started those conversations
earlier, just like what Jason was saying on the front end and
Chris made a good point of making it at least the first
part of confirmation prep. Like let's be talking about what
you should be looking for. Talk about it every chance you
can with the students, talk about it every chance you can
with the parents. These are the kind of qualities
you're looking for. If you don't have somebody like
this in your life, I would love to introduce you to Jerry, who's
in our community and and would love to be a sponsor.
So clear communication, earlier communication.
Is the role of a sponsor largely, and this is a question,
is it largely like one of the hidden secrets of confirmation
or the things that if we got this right, fruit would be wild?
Or is this a we got some we got some adjustments guys, but
there's other bigger things that we have to get to.
I know it's a big thing, but I'm saying like I.
I think it's it's got huge potential.
I think we have not. I have not used sponsors well.
And I think there's also an opportunity for the sponsor to
grow in faith. Yeah.
Yeah, 'cause it is reciprocal. Like any mentor person, they
always will tell their mentor is that the right word?
Mentor that I get I. Could do it righter.
Oh yeah, thanks. That they get more out of it
than than than the person I'm mentoring.
That I've all every great relationship I've seen,
including my own. That's the been the
conversation. So, OK, so Jason, you're saying
like, yeah, there's a ton here that we could do.
All right, my friend. So this has been a great
conversation. Sponsorship, not Chick-fil-A.
It's he people. It's all about people.
And as you're picking up these conversations, leaning in, be
gentle to yourself. Go slow.
You're going to hear that theme a lot and pay attention to what
the Holy Spirit's doing, the things He's doing in your heart,
and definitely pay attention to the young people around you.
And let's chat soon.