1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,160 Welcome to Heat Cast, the official podcast of Heat 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,040 Changes. As always, I am Mike Chisholm. 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,360 As always, I am so excited to have a conversation inside the 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,520 space of mental Wellness, specifically men's mental 5 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:13,680 Wellness. I mean, it's called Heat Cast. 6 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:15,280 So that's what we're going to talk about today. 7 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,960 I love the guest today. I say that every single time. 8 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:19,400 But you know what? It's authentic. 9 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:21,920 So let's just go with it. Jeremy Gordon is his name. 10 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,440 Jeremy Gordon is an author of a book called Opinionated, Not 11 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,000 Judgmental. And I think if you think about 12 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,360 that, just for a second, you might know where the book is 13 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,720 going. I mean, you think about the 14 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:39,040 world that we're in right now, the idea of, of, of, of judging, 15 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,360 you know, based on differences that we have as humans. 16 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,600 I think it many times is winning the day. 17 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,360 And, you know, we've got this guy here. 18 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:54,520 He, he used to have an indie newspaper in Santa Barbara, you 19 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,920 know, a journalist background and, you know, and, and, and as 20 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:05,960 he, and his life has progressed, the idea of how he talks about 21 00:01:05,960 --> 00:01:08,360 his story about how when he was a journalist, he went from a 22 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,160 place of being non biased to a place of being completely 23 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,200 biased. And, and, and, and when you 24 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,760 disagreed with somebody, that person was almost the enemy. 25 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,680 Jeremy does a he talks about that and the journey that he 26 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,760 took and how he realized one day that he was caught in a social 27 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,280 media machine that led him to a place of of of misery and what 28 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,080 he did to wake up, what he did to change, you know, called he 29 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,080 changed it right what he did to change and it completely changed 30 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,240 his life in for the positive. So much so he was moved to write 31 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,560 the book opinionated, not judgmental and talk about how we 32 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,200 can fight this polarization that's out there. 33 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,480 How, how it's possible to disagree with somebody and yet 34 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,920 still be very well connected with that person instead of 35 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,760 casting them aside and just moving over to the, the, the 36 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,960 team or the tribe that you identify with. 37 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:03,040 It's a very powerful message. He's a great speaker writer and 38 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:04,480 I just appreciate him very, very much. 39 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,560 So I hope you enjoy our conversation today with Jeremy 40 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:18,920 Gordon. OK, Jeremy, you don't know this 41 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:22,320 yet because we're trying to save everything for when the the 42 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,280 record light goes on. But this is a subject, the book, 43 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,800 the subject of your book is one that I have been really wanting 44 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,880 to dive into. I cannot wait to talk to you 45 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,520 about your book. Opinionated, not judgmental. 46 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:36,720 I cannot wait to talk about that. 47 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,640 But at the end of the day, there's a little bit of a road 48 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:43,320 that has LED you to being the guy to be, and I'm going to say 49 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,600 this, brave enough to throw this book out there in our current 50 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,680 polarized culture. Welcome to Heat cast. 51 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,800 Thank you so much for being here, and thank you so much for 52 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,760 writing this book. Yeah, thanks for having me. 53 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:55,880 I'm excited to jump in and have a conversation today. 54 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:58,600 It's going to be, it's going to be really, really good. 55 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,200 I appreciate that now, California boy, right? 56 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,000 I am born and raised, yes. Born and raised. 57 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,640 And again, I want to talk a little bit about like, you know, 58 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:09,560 sometimes it's fun to go through people's biography a little bit. 59 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,560 I want to jump into the subject of the book, but I do want to 60 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:17,040 get Nicole's notes of how you got here and at, at one point 61 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,880 rent a newspaper or a publication of some sort. 62 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:21,040 What did you run? What, what, what? 63 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,080 You're in the publishing business. 64 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,840 Yeah, so I, I have a, a very interesting career history to to 65 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:27,960 say the least. Right. 66 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,440 So I've been pretty much an entrepreneur my whole entire 67 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:32,880 life. But I started my career off in, 68 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,360 in journalism. I was in the newspaper industry 69 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,200 for about 12 years. Seven of those years I ran and 70 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,600 published my own newspaper in the Santa Barbara area, which is 71 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,720 about Central California area. And it was a it was a free daily 72 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,840 publication that published six days a week in news stands 73 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,080 throughout the, you know, the greater Santa Barbara area. 74 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,400 And it was a very interesting time in my life that the 75 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,760 newspaper did ultimately fail and we had to close it down. 76 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,760 But and that was, you know, probably the start of my 77 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,200 struggles from a mental health perspective when we go going 78 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,720 through that whole process and doing that, but that it was also 79 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,400 one of the biggest learning opportunities and lessons of my 80 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:15,080 life. So. 81 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,399 OK, let's talk about the paper. What was the focal point of it? 82 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,800 And I mean, six days a week, My God, the grind of that. 83 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:23,920 Let's talk about that for a little bit. 84 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,440 Like what years are we talking? Because again, our generation, 85 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:27,960 like I, I just turned 50 not that long ago. 86 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,720 I mean, newspapers were everywhere from the, the, the, 87 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:32,840 you know, the highest of the high. 88 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,520 When you think of like, you know, USA TODAY or the, the, The 89 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,880 New York Times, all the way down to, you know, free fanzines and 90 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,600 things like that, that would go out that people would. 91 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,040 But it was a huge part of getting information out there 92 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,480 and for all those different subcultures as well. 93 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,600 I'm super curious where you focused your your attention. 94 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,400 Yeah, so the paper launched in 2006. 95 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,600 So I actually just, it was just 20 years ago, like 2 weeks ago 96 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,560 that we, that we launched the paper. 97 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:03,040 I was 23 years old when I started it, which is just, you 98 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,600 know, it's just, it's just surreal to think about. 99 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,360 But, you know, I had this idea to start a newspaper and I, you 100 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:12,640 know, I was working in the newspaper industry. 101 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,000 I didn't just come out of nowhere, right? 102 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,960 I, I was managing a chain of papers up in the San Francisco 103 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,800 Bay Area and I decided I wanted to do it for myself. 104 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,160 And I started talking to friends and family about it. 105 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,600 I talked to my parents about it. And they're like, you know, we 106 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:27,120 have faith in you. You seem to know what you're 107 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,480 doing. And so I got support from some, 108 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,400 some several people and I launched a free daily newspaper 109 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,240 and we were focused on local news that, and that was the, 110 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:37,760 that, that was the crux of our thing. 111 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,000 It was just all like everything that was going on in our, in the 112 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,760 local communities, that's what we covered. 113 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,000 And it was down to Planning Commission meetings. 114 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,680 You know, we, we would, you know, if any new developments 115 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,760 going on, you know, police logs, you know, fires that were 116 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,320 happening, anything that was going on, car crashes, sometimes 117 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,520 even would make the, would make the news, right? 118 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,720 And so it was just this super micro newspaper. 119 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,720 And I think that's what made us so successful at first anyway, 120 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,840 right, is that there was a, there was a craving for this 121 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,640 kind of community style paper. And this was before the Internet 122 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,160 was really exploding into like the blogosphere and the sub 123 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,480 stacks where everyone had an, you know, opinion, you know, 124 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,040 Facebook was around, but, you know, mostly on college campuses 125 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,760 and stuff like that. So there was still a, a, a sort 126 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,800 of a demand in for a print, you know, paper. 127 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,120 So like, was there an editorial component as well where people 128 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:31,840 would would, would go back and forth on things? 129 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:33,960 Because, I mean, I think it sounds to me like this is the 130 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,520 seeds for the book, you know, the editorial part of a 131 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:39,560 newspaper. That's where you get your 132 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,280 following from where people can interact a little bit. 133 00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:44,200 And again, primitively, Like, I love that you painted the 134 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,600 picture because that's what interaction used to look like 135 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,200 before the Internet created such an easy pipeline for people to 136 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,680 do that. Was that an element of the paper 137 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:54,520 as well? What was it called? 138 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,120 Yeah, so the paper is called the Santa Barbara Daily Sound. 139 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:00,400 And when we, when I, when I first launched the paper, my 140 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,800 idea was for it just to be news, right? 141 00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:06,880 I, I didn't want there to be sort of the opinion side of 142 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,400 things that made that made news kind of wishy washy. 143 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,880 But ultimately the readers demanded it, right. 144 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,280 So they, they wanted, they wanted our take on what was 145 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,760 happening in the community. So about a year and a half into 146 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,040 publishing, we decided to launch an opinion page section and I 147 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,760 wrote the editorials and we had letters to the editor. 148 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,480 And it was actually a really interesting time because I had 149 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,000 to like, think deeply about some of the topics that we, that we 150 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,760 covered. And a lot of times, you know, 151 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:40,240 here I am what, 2425 years old. I don't have a strong political 152 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,600 bent at this time, right? I mean, I, I could tell you who 153 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,280 I voted for for president, but when it comes down to like 154 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,440 Planning Commission decisions and you know, what development 155 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,240 gets built and what doesn't. And you know, in Santa Barbara 156 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,640 is a very interesting community because there's a large 157 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,160 environmental component to it, right? 158 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,920 That, you know, you had the, the big oil spill there in the 60s, 159 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,000 which launched Earth Day, right? And so the community itself is 160 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,360 very big on the environment. So anytime a new development 161 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,480 would come in, there would be there would be, you know, 162 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,960 studies and, you know, sometimes just like 1 little endangered 163 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,760 frog could, you know, up and an entire development in this 164 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,800 community. And so as a as an editorial 165 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,080 writer, I had to take into all these nuanced issues and 166 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,560 understand them deeply and sometimes write editorials that 167 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,920 didn't necessarily align with what I believe personally, 168 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,040 because it was like what was best for the community. 169 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,919 And so that was just, you know, a really interesting time. 170 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:36,760 And we would get tons of letters to the editor and sometimes 171 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,080 those would spark new conversations. 172 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,720 But it wasn't real time, right? Because on the Internet that 173 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,160 stuff all happens real time. So you had time to think about 174 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,800 what you were going to say and how you were going to respond. 175 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,560 And it, it can be very thoughtful. 176 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,400 And I think that's kind of all gone out the window with the 177 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,520 Internet. Yeah, absolutely. 178 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,960 I mean the experience that you you got with that, you know, and 179 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:00,800 again, you're young, like, OK, so you have a background in 180 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,680 journalism, you know, go to school, whatever. 181 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,800 But but but at the end of the day, then you go become the 182 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,640 editor in chief of a paper. The learning curve on that 183 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,560 extreme. And I'm my goodness, what you 184 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:13,360 were building yourself, the skills that you were building 185 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,480 into yourself without even knowing it for all sorts of 186 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,400 things from, you know, things like sales to, you know, being 187 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,000 an entrepreneur, like you say you were, you were how where did 188 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,880 that come from? A lot of people are not born 189 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,040 entrepreneurs. Did you come from a family of 190 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:28,080 them? Were they, were you encouraged 191 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:29,640 to do that? No, not at all. 192 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,440 So I mean, my dad was blue collar, my mom was a stay at 193 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,880 home mom, you know, for our lives. 194 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,280 So, but they were, they always, I guess they would, I would say 195 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:38,680 they had an entrepreneurial spirit. 196 00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:40,880 You're right. So my mom would always do like 197 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,120 craft fairs and things like that to earn extra income. 198 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,600 And they were always kind of kind of work on what, what their 199 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,520 kind of side hustle was before side hustle became like a real 200 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,880 thing. So I had that sort of in the 201 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,440 back of my head, but honestly, I had no real entrepreneurial 202 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,880 experience. I felt when I launched the paper 203 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,720 that I understood the news gathering component of it 100% 204 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,120 right. I could, I knew the insurance 205 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,680 and outs of the, The Newsroom. I could run, I could run 206 00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:09,000 everything from, you know, the, the news gathering component to 207 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,240 the editing to the pagination, to the publishing, all that kind 208 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:13,520 of stuff. No problem. 209 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,040 I, I had done it all before. I knew the insurance and outs 210 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,720 where I had to learn on the spot was the business side of things, 211 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,840 right? So all of a sudden now I'm 212 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,640 hiring people, I'm dealing with HR issues, hiring and firing 213 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,040 payroll taxes, you know, all these like things that like, I 214 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,440 mean, I, I thought about them. They were part of my business 215 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,400 plan, but I didn't really think about them. 216 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,600 And I had no idea really what I was getting myself into. 217 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,400 And that's where the real growth happened in the seven years that 218 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,880 I had the paper. And I always say to my, you 219 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:49,040 know, I don't have an MBA from from some fancy school, but I 220 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,360 have an MBA from the school of Hard Knocks, that's for sure. 221 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,160 Well, and I mean, there's a lot of people who listen to this 222 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,880 show who can that that they move down that entrepreneurial Rd. 223 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,280 whether they're still in it, they're in the grind, they've 224 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,120 experienced it or they've gotten past, you know, the initial 225 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:03,880 stages of the startup life, the grind. 226 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,920 And, and, and I mean, the school of Hard Knocks is really at the 227 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,000 end of the day, many times the best teacher. 228 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,840 But the whole reason he changed it exists is because when people 229 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,080 talk about their experiences to the school of Hard Knocks, that 230 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,120 that many times you can, you can, you know, success leaves 231 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,360 clues. We talked about that, but 232 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,480 there's also, you know, experience leaves clues is a 233 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:26,520 broader statement to that. And again, I, I, I, you know, 234 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,000 talking about the book, I assume that a lot of where the book 235 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:35,320 came from, at least part part of it had to do with that 236 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,880 experience going through that newspaper. 237 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,640 Yeah, so because I had this this experience writing the 238 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,880 editorials and formatting these opinions and really thinking 239 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,520 deeply about it when when the paper folded and I left to 240 00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:55,080 pursue other endeavors, this is really when social media was 241 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,920 exploding, right? So we're now we're in 20/13/2014 242 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,800 and you know, the, the, the 2016 presidential election is right 243 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,840 around the corner and all of a sudden everyone is experts on 244 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,200 geopolitics and it just everything going social media is 245 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,840 just exploding right with everyone being able to have 246 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,120 opinions and stuff like that. And I said to myself, hey, you 247 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,960 know what? I can take my learnings from 248 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,880 being this thoughtful editorial writer who really, you know, 249 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,360 suffered internally over how I was going to format, formulate 250 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,120 an opinion and, and articulate it to my readers and parlay that 251 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,160 into social media. And so I started posting us on 252 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,640 Facebook and writing some, you know, long, thoughtful posts 253 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,160 about how I felt about the current political landscape. 254 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,280 And at first, I think it was well received. 255 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,000 And then, as you know, things went on after Donald Trump was 256 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,400 elected into office and the country really changed 257 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,120 overnight, and the dynamic of how people interacted with each 258 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,720 other changed overnight. That's when things started kind 259 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,880 of deteriorating for lack of a better world. 260 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,960 Yeah, I mean the polarization and it's, it's not just, you 261 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:13,560 know, I'm, I'm broadcasting here from Canada. 262 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,120 The polarization is not limited to the United States. 263 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,640 It, it, it feels like as social media started to really, really 264 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:29,160 stretch its legs, so too did the rigidness of of not just people 265 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,760 throwing their opinions out there and maybe not thoughtful 266 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,880 the way that you described it and then and heartfelt what not. 267 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,080 It was more knee jerk. It was more, but then also the 268 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,600 reaction to those opinions were became, became divisive. 269 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,280 And, and it's funny, you know, political politics is really 270 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,560 easy to look at this it, it really is like when you look at 271 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:51,440 again, you have a divisive leader or, or divisive, you 272 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,800 know, set of circumstances. OK, there's that. 273 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,680 But it gets really nuanced too. Like, I mean, I'm a big hockey 274 00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:01,400 fan and I think hockey fans have gotten meaner. 275 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,280 And, you know, towards if, if, if, you know, we're on our team, 276 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,720 it's the tribalism of things, you know, and, and, and I think 277 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,600 that that tribalism unfortunately seems to be 278 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,080 getting a lot more nuanced as well. 279 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,560 Fortunately, we are noticing these things. 280 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:15,920 Thoughtful people out there are noticing these things and, and, 281 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,360 and we're, we can course correct and, and, and I feel like a 282 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,440 course correction is not only in the cards. 283 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,360 It does feel like the pendulum is starting to swing the other 284 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,520 way. But let's, let's get into the 285 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,400 book now because again, I, I, I can, I believe that we could 286 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,600 take the entire time that we have and just talk about, you 287 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,760 know, the nuances of the book. Let's talk about the book. 288 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,280 Opinionated, not judgmental. When did you start writing it? 289 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,920 Let's go for the synopsis and then we let's have some fun 290 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,880 ticking it around a little bit. Yeah, I started writing it about 291 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,400 2 1/2 years ago. And it, it, it really it, it's 292 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,480 sort of, it's autobiographical and the fact that it, it is 293 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:55,000 about my journey into what I've called my keyboard warrior 294 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,000 phase, right. And so we were just, you know, 295 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,480 we were starting to talk about me getting more involved in 296 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,440 social media and what that looked like. 297 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,960 And it was, it was amazing to me looking back, you know, on it 298 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,920 cuz hindsight's 2020, right? But how quickly that sort of 299 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,680 editorial journalistic training that I had went out the window 300 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,840 when all of a sudden it's like real time banter back and forth, 301 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,680 you know, trying to, you know, counter arguments before they're 302 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,440 even made and understand where people, what people's objections 303 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,320 are going to be to your, to your point, before you even make them 304 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,400 and they make them. And your, your mind just starts 305 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,480 going a mile a minute. And all I could really focus on 306 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,600 is how I'm going to respond to things that people hadn't even 307 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,400 said yet, right? Because I was just like, I'm 308 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,120 going to say this. And this is, I know this is 309 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,600 going to be their reaction. How do I respond to that? 310 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,560 And it really changed my mental state. 311 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,080 You know, we have to go back a little bit, but I had, I had 312 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,120 recently gotten married, my wife and I started having kids during 313 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,160 this time. And I was spending so much time 314 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,440 on my phone, responding to comments, engaging with people 315 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,880 in different chats here and there that I wasn't focused on 316 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,600 my on my marriage. I wasn't focused on my kids. 317 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,400 And everything was just kind of not really blowing up, but just 318 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:19,240 changing in the background. And I had to, I had to kind of 319 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,200 had this wake up period. And it was, it was after the 320 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:28,480 2020 election and all of a sudden things just, you know, it 321 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,920 was like, it seemed like things sort of calmed down a little 322 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,880 bit, right? Like Trump was out of office and 323 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,520 now, you know, Joe Biden was in office and things were, you 324 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,360 know, changing a little bit. But that's when I kind of just 325 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,360 took a, took a step back and was like, I have to stop doing this. 326 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,480 Like my, this is destroying my mental health. 327 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,280 It's I, I can see it on my wife's face when we're, when 328 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,920 we're having conversations, like she's like, she told me one 329 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:53,960 point. She's like, you're not the same 330 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,680 person when you're having these conversations on your phone. 331 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:02,280 And, and that was like kind of the wake up call for me to. 332 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,760 And I, and I, I, at that point I just, I decided I'm a quick cold 333 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,920 Turkey. I stopped posting on social 334 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,359 media and I really turned to my faith and really started 335 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,440 focusing on who The Who, the man I want to be, the dad I want to 336 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,880 be, the husband I want to be. And that was the kind of the 337 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,599 pivot point for me. OK, that's, that's all. 338 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:24,200 I appreciate your articulate your, your skills in 339 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,280 articulating where you were. But I want to go back to 340 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,960 something you said at the very beginning of that, because, you 341 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,920 know, the idea that your journalistic skills went out the 342 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,400 window and, and, and let's, let's talk about that a little 343 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:37,960 bit. Because again, I come from a 344 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:43,800 time and place where my favorite journalists, broadcasters, you 345 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,120 didn't know what their political affiliation even was. 346 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,600 You know, you had somebody that was, that was, that was 347 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,680 reporting the news and there was no slant. 348 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,280 And, and, and in my, again, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm almost 50 or 349 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,920 I, I'm just over 50. I should say, a lot of the kids 350 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,880 look at me when I say this, I'm the old man. 351 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,160 I did not know that what I'm about to say makes me an old 352 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,440 man. But to me, a reporter of any 353 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:10,400 sort should not be throwing any opinion whatsoever when they're 354 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,760 reporting the news. It should be just reporting the 355 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,080 news. And and like, again, millennial 356 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,240 kids or Gen. Z kids look at me like I'm like 357 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:19,960 I got three eyes when I say something like that. 358 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,120 When I was the Gen. X, you know, Nirvana loving, 359 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:27,280 rebel, rebellious person growing up, I did not think that that 360 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:28,680 was going to be a generation gap. 361 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:33,760 I could never have predicted the fact that journalism would shift 362 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:39,040 so radically that now you almost have to report with a slant if 363 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,760 you want to take part in the economics of our society right 364 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,440 now. I never in a million years would 365 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,440 have thought about that. And hearing, I assume you came 366 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:53,400 from a similar ilk. And to hear you say, OK, yeah, I 367 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,400 had all this training. I was this, I was that I ran, 368 00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:00,280 ran a paper. But then as this culture shift 369 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,720 started to happen, all of the journalistic skills that you had 370 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,840 went out the window. That is fascinating to me 371 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,120 because, again, you're somebody who was trained in it, somebody 372 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:14,640 who has actually had thoughtful, you know, thoughtful experience 373 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:19,680 in exactly that area, never mind the average person. 374 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,280 Like, I mean, if you're swept away by the tidal wave, what is 375 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,320 it going to do to everybody else who's never even had that 376 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,840 thought before? That is fascinating to me. 377 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:28,520 No, you're absolutely, you're absolutely right. 378 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,800 And you hit the nail on the head, like we, we had what was 379 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,000 called the wall in the in journalism, right? 380 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,600 And there was there was a wall between news and opinion. 381 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,440 And they were always separate. They were, you know, run by 382 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,800 separate teams. They, they did not interact with 383 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,440 each other because you didn't even want to give the idea that 384 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,960 there was any kind of cross pollination between the two 385 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,800 because it just, it destroyed the illusion of what, what these 386 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,160 two different, completely different functions represented 387 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,320 on the pages. And, and that is completely 388 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,760 gone, right? I mean, you, you pick up the 389 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,600 front page of any newspaper and you, you probably can't tell 390 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,320 whether you're reading news or opinion just based off of how it 391 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,240 has evolved in the last decade. And it, it has gotten it, it's, 392 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,360 I would say it probably started about 25 years ago, but it has 393 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,480 gotten significantly worse in the last 10-15 years. 394 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:23,840 So. Can I ask what year you were 395 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,720 born? 1982. 396 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,840 OK, 82, so I'm a 76 baby. So I got a little bit, I got a 397 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,920 little bit more width and breadth of life there. 398 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:38,200 And to me, I can remember as a child watching, yeah, watching 399 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:43,600 Tom Brokaw reporting about every like and there was one in 400 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,160 particular, I think it was when GE bought NBCI think that's what 401 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,000 it was. And he was the the he was 402 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,320 talking about and it wasn't an opinion at all. 403 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:59,040 It was talking about is news going to be affected as all of 404 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,280 these corporate entities come and buy all of these private 405 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,280 broadcasters or newspapers or things like that? 406 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,360 Is that going to be the case? And, and I mean, I can remember 407 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:12,720 him reporting on it on the NBC Nightly News one night. 408 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,680 It and it was, it was one of those things where at the time 409 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:18,600 you think, oh, well, you know, whatever. 410 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:23,680 But now 1/4 century later or even more, you know, 30 years 411 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,640 later, I think we're seeing the results of it. 412 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,760 In your opinion, is it because of is it because of the 413 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,320 corporate overlords and the way that economics are out there? 414 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,240 Is this part of the reason that that that slant has shown up the 415 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,600 way that it has in journalism? The, the corporate consolidation 416 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,080 definitely plays a role in it, but it, you can, it really, you 417 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,200 can date this back to the 1990s with the launch of what was 418 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,240 called the cable news network at the time, which is CNN, right? 419 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,000 And the 24 hour news cycle was born, right. 420 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,720 And all of a sudden you have one channel that's dedicated to just 421 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,120 news 24/7. And when you think about that, I 422 00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:04,440 mean the, the, the NBC Evening News, the CBSABC nightly news, 423 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,760 those were hour long programs and they were one and done and 424 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,160 and then they followed. By local news usually followed. 425 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,040 By local news, which was usually like another 30 or 3060 minutes 426 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,440 or whatever, right? So you had two hours a night of 427 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,920 news on your TV and all of a sudden you're thrust into this 428 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,280 24 hour news cycle and it's like, what? 429 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,920 What do we fill this space with? And that's when really talking 430 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,240 heads became a thing. And all of a sudden people were 431 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:30,840 just pontificating on things that happened. 432 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,600 And then they would talk you through things and it became 433 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,240 more about being first than being right. 434 00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:39,560 And that was that was the real start of it, right? 435 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,760 Because these, these in order to get viewers and eyeballs to turn 436 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,080 in, you had to, you had, there had to be a reason for you to, 437 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,360 to watch. And so they wanted to be the 438 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:49,880 first one. They are the first one to break 439 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,240 the news. And they didn't really care if 440 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,600 it was correct or not. Yeah, I could not agree more 441 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,280 about your take on that. And it was, it's, it's so funny 442 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,360 how it's like the frog in the pot, right? 443 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,040 The frog in the in the, in the water, if it's if it's tepid 444 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,080 water doesn't even know that it's starting to to boil, right. 445 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,720 And, and I, I feel like that's where our culture has been led. 446 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,600 And, and now, now we have this place where, where again, it's 447 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:23,280 all about slant. When you fell into that and, and 448 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,040 you, you know, throughout the, the, the journalistic and 449 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,240 integrity and all the things that you had learned and just 450 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,400 started moving into that, were you ever aware of it? 451 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,920 Were you ever aware, like, was there ever a moment where you 452 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,720 were, you know, you know, doom scrolling and then posting or 453 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,480 commenting or responding, whatever it was where you were 454 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,960 like, we're not in Kansas anymore. 455 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,320 This isn't, This isn't or or was it? 456 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:45,880 Was it something that you were even unaware of? 457 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,000 You know, I mean, I, I think I became painfully aware of it, 458 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,120 you know, after the 2016 election. 459 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:54,560 I'm telling you that's, that's to me, it was the pivot point. 460 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,560 And that's the moment in the United States anyway, when all 461 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,000 of the sudden, because it used to be, you could disagree with 462 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,400 someone and still respect them. You could or, you know, you had 463 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,120 friends who were on the different, a different side of 464 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,520 the political aisle and you just didn't talk about politics. 465 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,920 And all of that went out the window, you know, when Donald 466 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,920 Trump came onto the scene, because all of a sudden it was 467 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,800 just like, it, it, it things just changed. 468 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,280 And all of a sudden every, everyone talked about politics. 469 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,600 Your politics mattered more than almost anything else. 470 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,880 What you believe and it and it in what it was. 471 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,680 And and this is a psychological thing. 472 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,080 And I talk about this in in the book as well. 473 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:35,040 But outrage, you know, spreads faster than anything else, 474 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,120 right? Faster than love or peace or 475 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,320 anything like that is outrage. And, and we knew this 476 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,560 psychological phenomenon in the news business. 477 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,200 And so when we would write headlines, for example, we write 478 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,200 them to get people interested in reading the article. 479 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,400 And it would always lean towards what's going to make people mad, 480 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:54,880 right? What, how, what you know, So 481 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,720 that so that was kind of that was always kind of the thinking. 482 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,080 And then, you know, so you get, you know, newspaper headline 483 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,840 writers especially would get accused of sensationalism, 484 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,280 whereas they would when people go read the story and they'd be 485 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,160 like, so story's fine. You know, the journalist who 486 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,280 wrote this is fine. But the headline is what made me 487 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,000 upset, you know, and then you get so and that's, and that's 488 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,680 what happened. And that outrage spread so fast. 489 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,720 And then the social media platforms came on the scene and 490 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,400 they realized that right away. And the algorithms were designed 491 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,080 to spread that outrage. And now we're seeing it, you 492 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,720 know, 10-15 years later with, you know, the recent lawsuits a 493 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,360 couple weeks ago without the jury trials that came back and 494 00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:38,400 said that Facebook and and Google are liable for the mental 495 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,280 health damage that they are causing to people because of 496 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,880 these, you know, scroll addiction in this endless 497 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,320 outrage that's happening online. So it's kind of coming to a head 498 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:51,440 at that point, I think. And hopefully as we're talking 499 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,000 about this, as you're writing books like this, we're having 500 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,120 conversations like this and, and people are are hearing them. 501 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:59,000 Hopefully there is a wake up moment for everybody As as, as, 502 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,200 as, as, as we, you know, you talk about the school of Hard 503 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,320 Knocks. My God, our culture has really, 504 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,480 really experienced a school of Hard Knocks type lesson that 505 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,720 hopefully does not translate down to, you know, I got a 506 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,600 granddaughter who's 8 years old. I talk about her a lot on this 507 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:12,920 show. She's my favorite thing on this 508 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,040 planet. She's my favorite human. 509 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:17,080 She's my favorite noun is my granddaughter and I and I, I 510 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:23,520 don't want her to be, you know, brainwashed by anything, but it 511 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,120 feels like people are being brainwashed by everything 512 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,000 depending on the type of tribe that they hang out with. 513 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,480 So your book, I mean, I saw the title when, when it came across 514 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,120 as you as a, as a, as a potential guest, I was like, Oh 515 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,760 my God, I, I know a lot of. So let's talk about the synopsis 516 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,360 of the book. And then I, I got some questions 517 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:42,000 for you that we can go through and discussion points. 518 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,040 But let's talk about the synopsis of the book and where 519 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,160 is it available? Because I think there's a lot of 520 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:47,400 people out there. I think there's a lot of 521 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,440 parents, There's a lot of men out there who are, who are 522 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,040 dealing with this at their workplace, in their churches, in 523 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:54,400 their like again, in their sports bar. 524 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,480 I think that there are a lot of people who are dealing with this 525 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,440 stuff. The idea of opinionated, not 526 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,240 judgmental to me is a concept that everybody should learn 527 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,320 right from the very beginning. And that's just the title of the 528 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,000 book. So let's talk about the synopsis 529 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,200 and go from there. Yeah. 530 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,000 So the the idea, the concept behind it is that we should be 531 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,560 able to hold strong convictions. We should we should be able to 532 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,000 have our opinions, whether they're based on our culture, 533 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,880 our faith, just our lived experience. 534 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,160 We should be able to have these opinions. 535 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,400 But how we treat others who don't share those opinions is 536 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,880 what's important, right? So when we're when we're 537 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,680 interacting with people who might see the world differently, 538 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,560 we have to kind of take a step back and say, what are we trying 539 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,800 to do by arguing our opinion? Are we trying to change their 540 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,120 mind? Are we trying to convince 541 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,400 ourselves what is the ultimate goal? 542 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,680 And and then we have to ask ourselves, why do we care to do 543 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,800 that, Right. So it's like if what what I 544 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,520 found when I was when I would be deep in these conversations, you 545 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,920 know, I call conversations, they were arguments, you know, on 546 00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:58,800 social media. Sure. 547 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,960 Yeah. I wasn't changing minds, right. 548 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,520 I mean, I would come and I would have facts and I would have, you 549 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,640 know, data backing up my points and, you know, sources and all 550 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,000 this kind of stuff. And it was just this back and 551 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,760 forth, back and forth. And minds weren't being changed. 552 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,400 And actually what was happening is I was, I was losing friends. 553 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,600 I have family members who still won't talk to me because of 554 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,440 something I said, you know, 10 years ago on social media. 555 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,840 And, and that was like that. That's crazy because I, I had 556 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,080 to, I had to wake up from that. I was just like, what am I doing 557 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,040 here? And and that's that's why I 558 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:36,960 decided to write this book because I realized I was like, 559 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,760 I'm doing this wrong. I've become the person I didn't 560 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,640 want to be. I've become the person who I 561 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,440 accused them of being in their, in the judgement and stuff like 562 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,080 that. And so that was like kind of the 563 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,160 real eye opening moment for me when I was just like, you know, 564 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,760 I can, I can, I can still believe these things like I 565 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:54,960 have. There's no problem with me 566 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,880 having my strong opinions, but I cannot treat others the way I've 567 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,240 been treating them and talk to them the way I've been talking 568 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,920 to them and still keep my sanity. 569 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,880 You know, it's such an easy surface level life lesson 570 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,240 platitude, whatever you want to call it. 571 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,000 I mean, again, growing up as a Gen. 572 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,720 X kid and I'm, I'm certain my, my baby boomer parents, you 573 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,560 know, were, were told the same thing because they're the ones 574 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,280 that told it to me. You know, when you're at the 575 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,000 dinner table when the family reunions happening, you don't 576 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,600 discuss religion, you don't discuss politics. 577 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,480 And the reason that you don't do that like, like that was 578 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,400 something that we just kind of grew up with as a, almost like 579 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,400 a, like a, like a, like, like a funny life, like that kind of a 580 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,320 kind of a rule. Like it wasn't a, because you 581 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,480 would see it, you would see people who would have a 582 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,520 conviction, whatever it was. And it's, it's, it's very 583 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,160 different. Kevin Smith talks about this in 584 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,800 the movie Dogma. You know, you have, you have, 585 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,440 there's an idea of, of, of ideas versus belief because of 586 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,960 changing an idea is pretty easy. They're pretty malleable. 587 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,760 But, but, but malleable. But changing a belief is more 588 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,720 tricky, and I think that that's why the religion politics thing. 589 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,920 So what you're talking about is a very basic skill is 590 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,040 citizenship or respect is even probably a better word for it 591 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,400 that, you know, I may disagree with you, but I respect you for 592 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,920 how you believe things because everybody can justify what they 593 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,280 believe if they are coming from a place of awareness and 594 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:18,880 presence. And, and, and like, I can give 595 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,960 you half a dozen examples of American friends of mine who 596 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,720 voted for Trump for extremely legitimate reasons. 597 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,440 It might have been that they were wronged locally by a, by a 598 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,440 like, like, like legitimate reasons. 599 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,280 There. There are people who do that. 600 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,520 But even me saying what I just said, right now there's a group 601 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,640 of people who would take that statement, which I feel is 602 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,880 pretty reasonable, and they would then cast me aside for 603 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,600 even even suggesting that might be the case on either side, 604 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,040 right? You know, and, and so where did 605 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:49,840 it, where did it, where did it go? 606 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:51,320 And what do we, what do we do with that? 607 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:52,680 Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. 608 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,080 And I mean, I love that movie. I've probably seen Dogma, you 609 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,800 know, two dozen, three dozen times. 610 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,440 But but it's. My favorite Kevin. 611 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,200 Swift movie, it's great. It's great movie. 612 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,440 It's just a great cultural reality. 613 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:09,120 But what, what, what happened is that politics have become a de 614 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,120 facto sort of religion, right? So, you know, right, whether we 615 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,000 want to get into this or not, you know, this, the, the world 616 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:21,080 in general has has moved away from faith in, in a, in a higher 617 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,680 being and be, there has to be something to fill that void. 618 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,000 And so politics has come in and filled that void and it has 619 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:34,320 become religiosity for the vast majority of people who at least 620 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,880 don't have some other faith-based component to their 621 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,080 life. And so you're, so you're right 622 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,720 when you, when you, when you start attacking A belief system, 623 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,440 now that's where that's where it gets personal. 624 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,960 That's where you start to lose relationships because it's no 625 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,000 longer just discussing ideas. You're really you're you're 626 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,160 you're hitting at their the core of their beliefs. 627 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,000 Well, it's funny you, I love that you mention it that way 628 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,760 because it is becoming almost a religious, dogmatic type thing. 629 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,760 And I've always, you know, covered the idea like I'm a, I'm 630 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,040 a, I'm an extremely spiritual person, extremely. 631 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,040 And and my faith in many respects at 50 has never been 632 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,560 stronger than it ever has. But faith and religion are two 633 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,600 very, very, very different things, you know, and and and 634 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:19,680 and, and. But the thing about it is it's 635 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,920 so personal. When you look at something like 636 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,840 faith, it is something that is so personal. 637 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,160 That being said, when you're in the tribalism or the teams that 638 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,680 religion brings, OK, this is the team I'm on. 639 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,560 Oh, somebody's attacking our team, you know, and is any team 640 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,480 perfect? Well, no, no, but, but this is 641 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,120 the team that I, that I, that I subscribe to. 642 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,720 And so therefore, now we've got to arm up whenever there's any 643 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,600 sort of disagreement. And I think that that is a 644 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,720 really, really good point that that politics has somewhat 645 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,240 become a religion to many people. 646 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,560 And, and like, like again, you know, I, I, I don't know where I 647 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,280 would like, I've always said that if I had a political party 648 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,800 that I would be registered towards, they don't exist 649 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,560 because there are certain social elements. 650 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,800 I'm a Canadian, right? So I love, I love the universal 651 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,040 healthcare. I love some of the different 652 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,880 things. I believe that we live in a 653 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,280 world right now where we actually have the capability to 654 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,760 feed everybody. If we wanted to, we could solve 655 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,080 that problem. So I'm a huge social guy, but I 656 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,720 also like a business owner. And so I believe, I believe in 657 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,320 the free market. I believe it like, so I don't 658 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,280 even know if I would ever fall into a political party when it 659 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:26,720 comes to some of these things. And yet, you know, there are so 660 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,280 many people who who, who pressure or push me one way or 661 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,240 another just simply because it seems like they want me on their 662 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,080 team. And it feels like that that's 663 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,560 happening all over the place. Again, politics is the easiest 664 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,520 way to kind of talk about it, but it's happening everywhere, 665 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,640 isn't it? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's 666 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,600 tribal warfare is basically what it is, right? 667 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,480 But and it all, it all comes back to, I mean, specifically as 668 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,280 men, right? There is, there is a there's a 669 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:02,880 psychology in masculinity that that men don't want to be wrong, 670 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,400 right? It feels being wrong feels like 671 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,480 a mistake and it feels like sort of a loss of identity. 672 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,000 And you know, men are we're wired towards competence, 673 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:20,000 conviction, being right, especially in public places, you 674 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,080 know, and, and, and a social media forum is a, is a public 675 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,320 place. But this, it goes back to the 676 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,840 whole age-old thing about men not asking for directions. 677 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,159 You know, the stereotype of that. 678 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:31,679 And it's because it's because we don't want to seem like we don't 679 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:35,120 know. And so when when someone calls 680 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,960 you out and says you don't know it, not only does it cut through 681 00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:44,000 your faith, it cut through your belief, but it cuts into who you 682 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,080 are as a man. And that is that's where the 683 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:48,800 kind of psychology of it starts to come in. 684 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,360 So, and there's research, there's research to back this 685 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:52,159 up, right? So. 686 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,520 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like your very identity is now 687 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,800 in trouble because, you know, you might have been a misstep on 688 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,600 on, on, on an on an opinion really when it comes down to it, 689 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:02,840 right. Like, and that's and that's what 690 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,080 we're talking about here. So how do we unpack this? 691 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,120 Like what are like, like, OK, so like I'll bring another example 692 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,600 that isn't political for for people. 693 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,840 So I just want to like, I look at I'm a big movie guy and, and, 694 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,400 and, and I like some pop culture stuff. 695 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,320 I've always been a combo fan since I was a little kid. 696 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,120 And I look at what's going on with DC Studios right now. 697 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,480 DC Comics, the home of Batman and Superman and Green Lantern 698 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,720 and Hawkman and Wonder Woman, all of that, right? 699 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,240 Shazam, who's my favorite Captain Marvel, the original 700 00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:30,280 Captain Marvel, who's my favorite. 701 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,560 You know, I look at what's going on there and, and, and like Zack 702 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,160 Snyder made a movie, a Justice League, a version of Justice 703 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,240 League. You know, he had to step back 704 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:40,120 from that project due to personal circumstances. 705 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,160 Joss Whedon finished it. And now you've got this 706 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,280 groundswell of people who are like, bring us this Justice 707 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,200 League movie. The Justice League movie comes 708 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,560 out, It's divisive between comic fans and it's like, Oh no, let's 709 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,600 get rid of him. Let's bring in, you know, a new 710 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,040 team of people at DC Comics and and all of that. 711 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,440 And you see people like warring on each other for if you like 712 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,600 Batman being played by Ben Affleck or somebody else and you 713 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,960 literally have people ready to arm up and go to war against 714 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,080 this. Again, what I'm saying is 715 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,760 ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. 716 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,480 But yet this seems to be where our culture is heading. 717 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,120 Is this, is this where the, the, you know, the book? 718 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,200 Is the book a warning? Is it, Is it we need to turn 719 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:24,400 from here? Is this what we're talking 720 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,160 about? Well, I'll, I'll just go say 721 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,520 real fast, Michael Keaton's still the best Batman, so. 722 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,360 Oh my man, my man, Batman 89 kicked open the door. 723 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,600 No, no, you're, you're so you're right. 724 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,880 I mean, yes, I think the book is a warning for this. 725 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:44,360 And part of it is because we have allowed our personal belief 726 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,360 system this this again, religiosity of politics to seep 727 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,320 into every aspect of our culture. 728 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,600 And so now these comic books that have been around for 729 00:36:54,760 --> 00:37:00,600 decades, you know, and have this this faithful fan following of, 730 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:02,600 you know, how they started. And if you look back at the 731 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,960 original Superman comic books, I mean, they were so pro America 732 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,160 and it was just, you know, it was, it was, it was that's how 733 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:12,240 they started. And that's where their 734 00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:14,640 foundation is. And then all of a sudden, you 735 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,920 know, we're here in, you know, in, in the, you know, 20s, in 736 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,560 twenty 20s. And we want to put our own spin 737 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,280 on it. And I think that's fine. 738 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,080 But you have to, you have to at least expect that there's going 739 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,640 to be some pushback from those people who grew up reading the 740 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,840 original, you know, source material and are, are seeing 741 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,280 like this is not, this is not the same Superman that I grew up 742 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,000 reading. This is not the same Batman that 743 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,080 I grew up reading. And why is that? 744 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,840 And it's like, but because I, me as a, as a producer and film 745 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,200 writer and director, I want to put my own personal touch on 746 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:49,920 this. And that's, and I think that's 747 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,280 where we're going. That's where we're missing out. 748 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,000 That's where we're going. We're not understanding what the 749 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,920 audience wants and needs and desires. 750 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:56,320 We're just saying, what do I want? 751 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,520 And it's all about that. It's all the culture of me has 752 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,000 really disrupted that space, I think. 753 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,960 Well, and by the way, I, I have a solve for that argument. 754 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,800 I brought up that specific example because I mean, there's 755 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,800 many of them again, from sports teams to to whoever, right? 756 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:11,960 But I brought that example up because in my mind I have a 757 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,120 solve for it because I have a big comic book fan. 758 00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:16,160 And, and I mean, you know, if they're going to make a movie 759 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,480 based on a Frank Miller version of Batman, OK, that is a 760 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,240 specific writer with a specific artist with a specific tone. 761 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,720 And if you want to go down that path and make an animated 762 00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:27,520 feature or feature, great, go for it, right? 763 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,840 Very different than the Neil Adams Batman, very different 764 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,440 than the, you know, there's, there's so many other ones that 765 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,640 we could talk about, Greg Apulo and all these other like, 766 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,560 there's all sorts of, like you said, decades almost, it's a 767 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,360 century actually. And with some of them. 768 00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:42,720 And you've had different creative teams who have come 769 00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:45,080 along the way and different takes, Never mind the fact that 770 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,440 we're moving into a different medium with, with, with film 771 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:48,680 makers and, and, and all of that. 772 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,560 So it's very simple to me to say, OK, well, this is just a 773 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,840 different take on it based on, you know, it, it to me that can 774 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,120 solve the argument. But again, what, how, what are 775 00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:59,680 we doing there? Well, we're becoming aware. 776 00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:01,760 First and foremost, we're becoming aware of things. 777 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,840 We're analyzing why we're arguing about this. 778 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,440 And then it's like, OK, well, let's come up with a, with a 779 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,760 solve for it. This needs to happen. 780 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,720 And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm super curious what your take is for 781 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,880 people who need this wake up call. 782 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,360 How can, how can we be opinionated but not judge 783 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,120 others? What are some of the in your, in 784 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,880 your mind or your opinion? What are some of the things that 785 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,200 that people who are listening to this can perhaps look at their 786 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,040 own behavior that they can change to perhaps unpack some of 787 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:33,520 the stuff that's been packed so tightly? 788 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,120 Yeah, I mean, for me it was, it was really just understanding 789 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,040 the why behind it, right. So when I was when I was arguing 790 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,840 online, what I found is I wasn't just defending ideas, I was 791 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,720 defending myself. I was defending my masculinity. 792 00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:51,720 I was defending, you know, my, my, my faith and my beliefs and 793 00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:53,800 these sorts of things. I wasn't, it wasn't just, it 794 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,000 wasn't just about politics. There was a deeper issue in it. 795 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,360 And so you kind of have to you take that step back and you go, 796 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,320 OK, why am I doing this? If there's, if I'm scroll, I'm 797 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,360 scrolling through Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, whatever it 798 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,760 is. And I see something that I just 799 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,160 vehemently disagree with. What part of me? 800 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,360 Why can't I just keep scrolling, right? 801 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,200 Why? Why do I have this, this just 802 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,960 internal reaction where it's like, no, I have to get on there 803 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:20,880 and I have to because it's not right and this is not what I 804 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,080 believe. And I'm going to put my two 805 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,840 cents in there and fine, do that. 806 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,560 But if someone comes back and says no, you're wrong for this, 807 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,120 and you have you start having a conversation, an argument with 808 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,320 this person about that, What are you doing right? 809 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,280 I mean, maybe you enjoy it, that's fine. 810 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,560 I enjoyed it for a while. I really did right. 811 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,720 I had fun doing it until I realized that it was really 812 00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:46,280 destroying my mental health. So ultimately, I would just say 813 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,080 it's a self reflection. You have to. 814 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:49,480 You have to take a step back and understand. 815 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,200 So it's a, it's an awareness thing. 816 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,640 Number one is you got to, you got to, you got to kind of wake 817 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,720 up a little bit and be aware and then #2 is being more 818 00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:58,760 reflective. Why am I doing it? 819 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,640 Ask yourself why am I doing this? 820 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,520 And and and. Understand the psychology behind 821 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,440 it too, like I, I talked about a little bit earlier, but the, the 822 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:11,600 outrage is it's a machine and these social media platforms are 823 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,680 specifically designed to encourage outrage. 824 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,600 So, and, and, you know, so the things that show up on your 825 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,760 feed, if you comment on a post that you disagree with, you're 826 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,840 going to start seeing more of those simple like posts on your 827 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,800 feed because social, the algorithm knows that you're 828 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,280 engaging with that content. And so now they're gonna, 829 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,760 they're gonna feed it to you. And it so it becomes this 830 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,440 endless loop where you're and it just drains you emotionally and 831 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,760 physically. And, you know, that's, that's 832 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:39,200 the. Yeah. 833 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,240 That's fine for cat videos because cat videos are 834 00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:44,520 fantastic. But yeah, no, when you're when 835 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,240 you're constantly being fed this, you know, toxic, these 836 00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:51,200 toxic thoughts that don't lead to solution in any way. 837 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:52,960 That's the other thing too, is like, what are you trying to 838 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,640 solve by doing this? You know, and, and another thing 839 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,360 I wanted to talk to you about the idea of not being judgmental 840 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,600 and, and, and if there's any tricks to it. 841 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,680 Another good example that I've seen again, in our lifetime, 842 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,400 we've seen a change where right now in our culture, there seems 843 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,080 to be a very loud voice. Whether it's a lot of people 844 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,720 that feel this way or it's just a very, very well placed 845 00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:21,520 algorithm, I don't know. But it's the idea of taking art. 846 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:28,600 But the artist and the way that they live their life is now a 847 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:32,840 part of, you know, of, of, of the, the opinion of how the art 848 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,920 should be. And, and, and, you know, there 849 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,640 are many, many, many examples of this, you know, and, and I mean, 850 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,480 there's a comic that I love so much finished a bit by saying, 851 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,640 you know, Thriller's still a good song, you know, and, and, 852 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:49,440 and the idea that we are now influenced by a group or a voice 853 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,080 or whatever it is, there's a, there's a subculture within the 854 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,000 culture that's influencing us to say, well, because that person 855 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,520 has flaws, whatever those flaws might be, you know, some of them 856 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,800 are minor, some of them are, are, are gigantic. 857 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,120 But like, because that person has flaws, we are now not 858 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,640 allowed to like the art. It's supposed to affect the art. 859 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:09,800 Do you get into that in the book at all? 860 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,200 I don't talk about that in the book, but that's a, it's a, it's 861 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,920 a very interesting subject. And I and my take on that is 862 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,680 that that is again, is the this just vast resource of 863 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,840 information that we have available at our fingertips at 864 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,600 any given time. We know intimate details about 865 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,200 people's lives that 20-30 years ago people just didn't know, 866 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:32,640 right. I mean, you, you may have 867 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,040 thought about it. I mean, you think, you know, I 868 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,080 always heard rumors as a kid that, you know, Leonardo da 869 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,600 Vinci was actually cross dressed as the Mona Lisa and that was 870 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,080 him. He painted it's a self-portrait 871 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,160 of himself, right? That was a rumor that we, I 872 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,680 don't know if we if it was ever proven or not, but it's like if 873 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,240 he had existed today and we knew that he was a cross dresser, we 874 00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:52,720 might not value his art the same way or what, you know, for 875 00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:55,720 whatever reason. Yep, because we but we didn't, 876 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,360 you know, you don't. We have these this intimate look 877 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,160 into people's lives and you see, like, look up Tiger Woods, you 878 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,480 know, just what happened to him. It's like, yeah, I want to view 879 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,720 him as this just masterful golfer. 880 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:09,040 And I want to see him and that's how I want to look at him. 881 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,360 But now I see him, you know, passing out in the back of a 882 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,920 police car and I'm just like, this is my childhood happening 883 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,720 before my eyes. It's like this kind of 884 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:18,920 information just wasn't readily available to us all the time. 885 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,600 And I think that's part of the the problems that we just 886 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,400 endless access to to stuff. Maybe. 887 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,040 But but then certain people get a pass, you know, again, I'm 888 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,720 gonna go back to a guy like Frank Sinatra, OK? 889 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,760 And and and and and. I mean, Frank Sinatra was 890 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,840 arguably the biggest entertainment icon on the planet 891 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:44,680 for a long time, OK, Also very, very public knowledge about 892 00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:48,200 antics and, and lifestyle of, of, of Frank Sinatra, Yet he 893 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:49,760 gets a pass. Why? 894 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,520 Because the voice is so silky or, or, or, or, I don't know. 895 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,360 I don't know exactly, you know, why he would get the pass and 896 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,280 somebody else might not get the pass. 897 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,360 But it's certainly inconsistent. And there certainly is a switch 898 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,960 in our head where we are able to separate the body of work or 899 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,840 whatever it is from the person who who made that body of work. 900 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,160 And I think it's directly related to what you're talking 901 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,920 about here is how we can have opinions but not judge others. 902 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:19,960 I mean, it's in every philosophical or religious text 903 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,760 that that, that I've, I've come across, there are points about 904 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,520 judging others and, and what it can lead to all the way from, 905 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,880 you know, people look at that as a spiritual thing, do not judge 906 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,120 lest they be judged and they're thinking about being judged from 907 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,120 on high. I think it's more of a common 908 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,560 sense thing. I think if you, somebody picks 909 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,360 up a spear, somebody's going to pick up a spear. 910 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,600 That's just the way it is. And so if you don't judge 911 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,480 people, they're also going to look at you with a similar 912 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,560 empathy for situations. I don't know. 913 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,200 You're right, but I always come back to there. 914 00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:56,320 There's a, there's a verse in, in Matthew that says, do not 915 00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,120 look at the, the, the spec in your brothers eye when you have 916 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,880 a plank in your own right. And so that is the internal 917 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:05,480 reflection that we have to understand. 918 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,680 It's like, look at yourself first. 919 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,200 So before you're going to judge someone for any basic idea, you 920 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,240 have to you, you have to know that you're not a perfect 921 00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:15,360 person. And that's and, and that's the 922 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,320 ultimate thing. And it's like, if you could to 923 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,840 go back to the faint, the Frank Sinatra thing a little bit, his 924 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:25,240 secret might have not been so secret, but it was, it was a 925 00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:27,040 secret, right? It was, it was he didn't 926 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:28,920 publicly talk about it. He didn't do interviews. 927 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,600 He wasn't posting. That was a good point. 928 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:37,680 It was it was his secret that was well known, but it was still 929 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,480 his secret. And nowadays that doesn't 930 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:40,920 happen. It's like everything is just out 931 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,680 there for everyone to to know. And so, and Frank Sinatra wanted 932 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,480 to be known for his singing and his acting and that's what he 933 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,240 wanted to be known for. He didn't want to be known for 934 00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:53,480 his, his, you know, lifestyle that he that he lived. 935 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,960 So I think that's. That's a good Yeah, we, we 936 00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,240 certainly do live in more public. 937 00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:02,160 Like it's funny, I'm in the well, tangentially created to 938 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,400 connected to the pro wrestling business. 939 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,880 I have a had a a, a charity professional wrestling promotion 940 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,640 that we ran up here in, in, in, in Kelowna, BC for six years. 941 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,360 And we, we brought in a whole bunch of, you know, former WWE 942 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,440 stars and we raised a lot of money for some local charities. 943 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,560 And I got to tell you almost every single one of them that 944 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,360 came up here and they would talk about, they would tell stories, 945 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,720 unbelievable stories. There wasn't one of them who 946 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,520 didn't say, I'm sure glad there weren't cell phone cameras back 947 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,040 then. So I, I hear what you're saying 948 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,920 when you're talking about, you know, the connectivity and, and, 949 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,440 and, and, and, and that. But that being said, the gotcha 950 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,600 part, it's almost like a game of hot potato where people are, 951 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,520 are, are, are, are trying to throw the potato at somebody 952 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,920 else. When you're exactly right. 953 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,680 We are all flawed. There is not one person walking 954 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,720 this planet that hasn't done something that would be 955 00:47:56,720 --> 00:48:00,360 considered that that wouldn't be considered, you know, even 956 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,320 deplorable. I'll even go out to on that. 957 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,800 All of us have bad days bad. And these are some of the things 958 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,960 that help us learn, you know? And that's just somebody we do 959 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,760 think about, not the stuff we think in our heads, you know, we 960 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,120 think we think even worse things than we actually do, you know, 961 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,480 and. We're on an even playing field 962 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,600 when it comes to that. And yet the culture is almost 963 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,760 like, well, I'm going to get you first before you get me. 964 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,440 Do you, you know, is that is that, is that something that 965 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,120 resonates with the book? Well, yeah, and absolutely. 966 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,040 And I think you and I mean you and I are still, we're part of 967 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,600 that kind of xenial generation between Gen. 968 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,920 X and Millennials, right Where? But we're like the last 969 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,240 generation where we made it through our adolescence and our 970 00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:45,080 early adulthood without recording and posting every 971 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:46,840 action that we did on social media, right? 972 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,560 So we're the, that we're the, we're the end of it. 973 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,240 Now everything is documented in real time for everyone to see. 974 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,920 And that's why you, you look at and you go the Oh my gosh, these 975 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:56,360 kids, they're getting in trouble. 976 00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,520 They're doing stupid stuff. And it's like, no, we were doing 977 00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:00,640 way worse things. Absolutely. 978 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:02,000 We're getting in way more trouble. 979 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:03,880 It just wasn't documented. You know that's. 980 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,160 Oh yeah, like we're so hyper connected now, like, like, like 981 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:08,880 again. And I, I fall prey to it too. 982 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,200 There are times where I have to actually stay with my, my 8 year 983 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,120 old granddaughter. We gotta give her the space to 984 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:17,440 breathe, to do something and not be helicopter type parents. 985 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,560 Like, like you and I, we grew up in a time where come home when 986 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,400 the street lights turn off, turn on or turn on, I should say, you 987 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,560 know, and, and literally 6-7 hours, our parents didn't know 988 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,280 where we were. And you know, that was an entire 989 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,840 generation of that. I say that and it's universal 990 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,920 for the most part. You know, I remember growing up 991 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,840 thinking that certain parents were more protective than are 992 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:40,280 you kidding me? You can't come out for five 993 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,120 hours with us and go to the center of town and back. 994 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:44,560 You can't really, you're not allowed to do that. 995 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,200 It was A and it, you know, the latchkey kid part and all of 996 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,800 that, that. So, so yes, you're right. 997 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,600 There is a gap there. All the more reason that we need 998 00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:56,920 to focus on empathy. All the more reason that we need 999 00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,520 to focus on self-awareness. And I think self-awareness is 1000 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,600 one of those silver bullets that that, that if I'm able to 1001 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,800 analyze why I'm thinking the way that I am, Oh my goodness, my 1002 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,440 life would be a lot smoother. But again, the culture is 1003 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,840 teaching, teaching us to go into that hair trigger response, to 1004 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:19,360 instantly respond, to do the the primal reptile brain response as 1005 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,000 opposed to the thoughtfulness. That you're talking about, you 1006 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,040 see it, it's like, you know the whole the phenomenon of the 1007 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,040 Karen emerging, right? It's like the only reason the 1008 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:31,040 Karens have existed for all of humanity, The only reason it's 1009 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,240 just now becoming a thing is because now everyone pulls out 1010 00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:36,440 their phone the second something is, is disrupted, right? 1011 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,240 The second someone is making a scene or doing something, it's 1012 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,000 you're pulling out their phone. They're live streaming it. 1013 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,960 It's, you know, it's, it's there for the, the whole world to see. 1014 00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:45,880 But there, there have always been Karens. 1015 00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,360 I lived next door to 1. I know, you know, when I, when I 1016 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,360 was a kid, I know that they've always existed. 1017 00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,680 It's just now they're more prominent. 1018 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,400 I have three people in my life that I adore that are named 1019 00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,880 Karen. And I feel, I feel just so I 1020 00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,720 feel so bad for them. You know, when it when it when 1021 00:51:02,720 --> 00:51:05,400 it comes to men, too, Like, like we talk about this on the show 1022 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,800 all the time. Is, is the idea of something 1023 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:09,080 like mansplaining. OK? 1024 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,840 Yeah. Well, I mean, guys, have we do I 1025 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,800 think we go too far with things sometimes, like you talked about 1026 00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,480 before, the idea of wanting to be right. 1027 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,720 I think about my father sometimes and, and, and 1028 00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:23,920 listening to him argue a point where all he just wanted was to 1029 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,360 be right and he wouldn't think of anything else right. 1030 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,080 But at the end of the day, we were also throwing the baby out 1031 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:32,440 with the bathwater many times. Mansplaining is actually a piece 1032 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,160 of vulnerability. Somebody thinks that they know 1033 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,200 whether they're, it's true or not, but they think they know 1034 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,440 they're actually trying to help many times when they're trying 1035 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,200 to bring out a piece of information to, to contribute to 1036 00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,120 a conversation. But that's even being demonized 1037 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:45,960 now. And it's, it's, it's very 1038 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:47,400 interesting times that we live in. 1039 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:54,080 You know, do you have obviously you are able to articulate and 1040 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,960 talk about the problem and, and it is a big problem. 1041 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,080 You know, you talk about a self-awareness and self 1042 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,320 reflection being. Is that the is that the silver 1043 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:05,680 bullet? Is that the solution? 1044 00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,160 Are there others that. Humility is the silver bullet, 1045 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:11,960 right? We have to be, we have to focus 1046 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:13,600 on our humility. We have to be humble. 1047 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:20,720 You know, you, you don't have to choose between truth and 1048 00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:25,440 relationships, but you do have to choose how you communicate 1049 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,480 truth within those relationships. 1050 00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,120 And that's that's the secret right? 1051 00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:34,120 That and and and you know, so conviction, these opinions that 1052 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:38,080 we hold, if we hold them without humility, that's when they turn 1053 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,480 in to judgement. So that's that's humility for 1054 00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,760 me. Is is the silver ball that here? 1055 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,760 I love saying that you don't have to like like the truth in 1056 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,560 relationships thing. They're not exclusive to each 1057 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,480 other. You don't have to I and, and, 1058 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,200 and I think that that's something like that's such a 1059 00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,160 simple thing. It's giving yourself permission 1060 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,280 to disagree essentially is what it is. 1061 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,800 You don't have to take things to the brink because of these 1062 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:07,280 things. And I mean, like, I know people 1063 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,880 who are of both very, again, faith, religion, right? 1064 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,360 I know people who are very religious that are married to 1065 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,520 each other, that have two completely different religions 1066 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,520 and yet they can coexist. And, and really at the end of 1067 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,240 the day, I mean, my goodness, we, we live in a, a time where 1068 00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:24,760 we focus on, I was curious if this was going to come up today. 1069 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,160 You know, we focus so much on the differences when at the end 1070 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,920 of the day, I mean, I look at some of the biggest leaders that 1071 00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:36,320 I or, or influences that I have. And many times one of the traits 1072 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,760 that goes across some of those people that I look up to and 1073 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:43,920 perhaps even aspire to be like is the fact that they completely 1074 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:48,920 right to the heart, understand the concept that we have way 1075 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,360 more in common than the things that divide us. 1076 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,360 And yet we live in a society right now where just take one 1077 00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,160 little division and it can spiral into a a, you know, a 1078 00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,280 supernova. That that's it 100% the, the 1079 00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,840 polarization that we are experiencing as a society and, 1080 00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,080 and that, that that stretches across borders. 1081 00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:10,440 It's, it's, it's a, it's a worldwide phenomenon. 1082 00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,280 There was a, a Pew Research study, I've done it on this a 1083 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,720 couple of, you know, probably 5-6, seven years ago now. 1084 00:54:17,720 --> 00:54:24,400 But people are increasingly holding the views that people 1085 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:29,040 who oppose them on some sort of topic are somehow morally 1086 00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:33,440 inferior to, to them, right. And that's what's fueling 1087 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,320 division. Because it's like, if you, it's 1088 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,280 not just like it's the whole agree to disagree is not a thing 1089 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:39,840 anymore. You know, it used to be you 1090 00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:41,680 would have a conversation, you go back and forth if you didn't 1091 00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:43,800 change mind, you say agree to disagree and you'd walk away. 1092 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:48,080 Now you're a bad person for not agreeing with me. 1093 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,360 That's what society says. And that's that's where things 1094 00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:55,680 are breaking down. I'll give an example up here in, 1095 00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,720 in Canada, actually, he's, he's a worldwide personality. 1096 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:03,280 There's a psychiatrist by the name of, or psychologist 1097 00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,160 actually by the name of Doctor Jordan Peterson. 1098 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,120 And you know, yeah, you've heard of him down there. 1099 00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,480 He's, he's, he's, he's gone over and, and he came to our city. 1100 00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,160 And I mean, the guy has enough notoriety, you know, 8 Rules for 1101 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:16,240 Life and eight more rules for life. 1102 00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:18,440 And, and a couple of, a few of his books that have come out 1103 00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,640 that, that, that have changed a lot of people's lives. 1104 00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:24,280 And, and, and they can say, look, I have a much better life. 1105 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,280 And they have nothing to do with any polarization or anything 1106 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:28,680 like that. They're just living life, you 1107 00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:30,760 know, under the surface of, of, of, of this stuff that we're 1108 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:32,920 talking about. And they could say, this person 1109 00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:37,840 has changed my life to the point where the man has toured around 1110 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,680 in arenas, like hockey arenas here, right? 1111 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:46,080 And he came to our city not that long ago and listening to people 1112 00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:52,800 sounding off on social media about, if you go and watch this 1113 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,080 man speak literally a, a, a conversation that he wanted to 1114 00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:01,280 have with a, with 5 or 6000 people about living a better 1115 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,920 life. And here are some concrete ways 1116 00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,760 that you could like take notes, because I'm going to give you 1117 00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,480 some concrete ways. And I'm not going to do it from 1118 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:11,480 a, from a religious standpoint. I'm not going to do it from, I'm 1119 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,480 going to do it from just a, a human nature, how we're wired 1120 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,200 standpoint, common sense for the most part, right? 1121 00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,440 That was the, the, you know, there were people who were 1122 00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:23,760 saying, if you go there, I will not be your friend. 1123 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,320 I will not talk to you. I will not just for going to 1124 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:31,480 hear somebody speak and to me when you have are trying to form 1125 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:37,400 an opinion about somebody, not listening to them and only 1126 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:42,760 listening to the advice of others seems to me to be folly. 1127 00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,960 And yet it seems to be the norm that's happening out there. 1128 00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,640 And we got to stop it. Like we we we got to stop that 1129 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,080 there there. There's got to be people like 1130 00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:55,600 obviously, you know, you don't want, you know, a Stalin or a 1131 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,520 Hitler or type of a situation where you're seeing that. 1132 00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:03,080 But those examples are so minute. 1133 00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,960 They're in the minority. And you wrote a book talking 1134 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,520 about this. I got to ask you, have you 1135 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:14,400 received any pushback from people who are living in the way 1136 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,760 that we're talking about here? I haven't actually. 1137 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,760 That's, you know, it's really a lot of the feedback I've 1138 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,920 received has been like, this is written for a time just as this, 1139 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:26,960 you know, like this. The timing couldn't have been 1140 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:28,440 better. Like, you know, this is 1141 00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,640 definitely something people need right now. 1142 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,680 That's a lot of the sort of the feedback I've gotten. 1143 00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:38,320 But you know, I, I, I don't there, I'm sure there are people 1144 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,760 out there who are happy in their, you know, sort of misery, 1145 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:43,160 right? Misery loves company. 1146 00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:45,920 And I was not, I was not one of them. 1147 00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,160 I was not happy when I was in that stage of my life. 1148 00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,600 And it reflected in everything. It reflected in my health, it 1149 00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:56,640 reflected in my weight, it reflected in my relationships, 1150 00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,880 you know, everything. So I, I was more than happy to 1151 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,040 break free from it when I finally woke up to it. 1152 00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,040 And I, and I think that's where kind of the vast majority of 1153 00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:08,920 people are. Once they actually wake up to 1154 00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,160 what's what's happening and what's going on, they're going 1155 00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,040 to they're going to want to try at least to to break free from 1156 00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:15,880 it. Let's talk about that like 1157 00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,440 you've you've woken up, you've written the book clearly, you 1158 00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:22,040 know, there you get in the therapeutic, you know, bump from 1159 00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:24,200 that as well because you're getting out these things, you're 1160 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:28,720 articulating them and able to really express it in that way as 1161 00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:30,520 you have woken up. Let's talk about how your life 1162 00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,280 has changed since then. Yeah, so as I mean, I've said, 1163 00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,240 I've, I've really been focused on my faith. 1164 00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:37,600 I'm a Christian. I've grown in that 1165 00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,480 significantly, you know, since I have broken free from these, the 1166 00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,080 chains of social media. I've read the Bible multiple 1167 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:49,240 times. I have, you know, just my, my 1168 00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,440 wife and I, you know, I pray with my wife, I pray with my 1169 00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:53,160 kids. You know, we're just more we're 1170 00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:57,280 more focused on kind of the bigger picture and that's so 1171 00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:58,360 you're. Present with your family. 1172 00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,800 For the non religious ones out there, the idea that you break 1173 00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:04,440 free of this and you now have the emotional ram to be present 1174 00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:08,680 with your family, your friends, that sort of thing, that's that 1175 00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:10,640 alone right there is invaluable, am I right? 1176 00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,200 Yeah, absolutely. I, I mean, that's, that's what I 1177 00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,640 was missing, right. I mean, that's like, I, I, I do 1178 00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:17,800 bedtime. My kids are 11:00 and 9:00 and 1179 00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,120 they still want me to do bedtime with them, which is, you know, 1180 00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,680 you know, reading stories, praying together, talking about 1181 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,120 their day and stuff like that. And I'm like, I'm, I'm like, 1182 00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:29,000 yes, as long as you're willing to have me come in your room 1183 00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,680 and, and lay next to you and have that conversation, I'm here 1184 00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:33,680 for it. And even like days when I'm like 1185 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,280 tired and exhausted and I've, you know, I've had a bad day. 1186 00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,880 My my daughter will come in like, dad, Are you ready to do 1187 00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,280 bed? And I'm like, yeah, like it 1188 00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:46,080 just, it just reignites, you know me and I'm like, I might be 1189 00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,200 laying in bed already. I might be like half asleep and 1190 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,200 it's like she's ready for it. And I'm like, Yep, I'm out. 1191 00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:52,920 I'm there. So that was that's, but that's 1192 00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,320 been the greatest change for. Me so and I mean you just take 1193 00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:00,560 that down the field a few yards. I mean joy, happiness, I mean 1194 01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:04,840 fulfilment that. If you compare it to the when, 1195 01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:09,600 when people are locked into the machine, whatever it is, you 1196 01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:10,920 know, you don't feel that, do you? 1197 01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,520 Like, you think, I think about, I think about the emptiness that 1198 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:18,040 people feel that masks itself as fulfilment when they're trying 1199 01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:20,760 to flame somebody or spike, you know, spike a volleyball into 1200 01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:24,200 somebody, you know, metaphorically online. 1201 01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,640 But that doesn't lead to life satisfaction, does it? 1202 01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,040 No, no. Yeah, and, and, and it's, it's 1203 01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,280 actually to, you know, to go back to like the reaction about 1204 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,840 the book too. This is what's been really 1205 01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:41,320 interesting to me is I think the people, especially the people 1206 01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:45,400 who I really burn the relationship with, I don't know 1207 01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,000 that they believe that I've changed. 1208 01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:50,560 And that's, that's been the part for me that I, that I have to 1209 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:53,840 work through in my own head because I, I'm not here to, I 1210 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:55,320 don't need to convince them of it. 1211 01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:58,160 I know that in my heart that I'm not the same person that I was 1212 01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:00,240 when we were fighting in the comment section. 1213 01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,680 But there there's a certain contingent of people out there 1214 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,800 because I still hold some of these same political beliefs and 1215 01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,800 views that we would argue about. They have a hard, they don't, 1216 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,200 they have a hard time believing that I that I'm a different, 1217 01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:14,960 that I'm a changed and different person. 1218 01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,120 And so they so I've gotten some sort of comments like, you know, 1219 01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:20,720 I this is, this is an act. This is, you know, this is a, 1220 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,320 you know, all for show. I actually have like, yeah, I 1221 01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:28,120 have an aunt for of all people who just who will still comment 1222 01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,480 on my post every once in a while and just be like you, you know, 1223 01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:32,800 you were so mean and cruel to people back in the you know, 1224 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:35,560 it's like how this is not who you I I don't believe this is 1225 01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:37,720 who you are. And I'm just like, I'm like, I 1226 01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:40,960 can't even respond because it's like, I don't, again, I don't 1227 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:43,480 argue with people online. So that's one of the reasons why 1228 01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,120 I can't respond. But it's like I just, I don't, 1229 01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:49,400 there's nothing I could say that's going to change her mind. 1230 01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:53,320 She's made-up her mind about who I am and it is what it is, 1231 01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:54,400 right? So I. 1232 01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:55,920 Bet she hasn't read the book though. 1233 01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,520 No, absolutely not. Yeah, so there's that part, you 1234 01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:03,520 know, and, and, and I mean, when texting again, you and I are 1235 01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:07,400 very fortunate in the sense that that, that we were around before 1236 01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,400 text messaging existed. You know, I can remember the 1237 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,840 first time I even like really I saw it in there's a movie called 1238 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:15,560 School of Rock. And I remember that watching, 1239 01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:18,320 you know, two guys text each other from the other side of a 1240 01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:20,400 bar when the band was playing really loud or whatever. 1241 01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:23,680 Like, like, like texting to me again is sort of a new 1242 01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,640 phenomenon compared to when I think about my youth, right? 1243 01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:27,880 You couldn't just text each other. 1244 01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:30,200 We were way more coordinated back then. 1245 01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:32,200 We're meeting at the mall at this time and you had to be 1246 01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:33,600 there, right? There's a small window. 1247 01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:35,120 That was it. You didn't know. 1248 01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:37,920 You just didn't know because. And somehow we still found each 1249 01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:38,960 other and make it work, you know? 1250 01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:40,560 Right. No kidding. 1251 01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,640 And and yet so so. But I remember when texting 1252 01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,880 first started, it was all oh wait a second. 1253 01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,080 OK, hold on. You know, emojis showed up and 1254 01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:52,360 smiling. You know, there were ways to 1255 01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:57,160 there were ways to convey tone. But at the end of the day, I 1256 01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:00,880 mean, unless you are a gifted writer writing paragraphs, it is 1257 01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:05,120 very difficult to convey tone in a comment section. 1258 01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,960 It's very difficult to convey, you know, where things are at, 1259 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,200 even at the interaction, you know, you don't want to argue 1260 01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:12,760 with your aunt. I mean, that's where the idea 1261 01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,080 is. I know like with my clients, 1262 01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:18,120 things like that, if I sense that we're in a texting 1263 01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:20,320 conversation, I sense things have gone off the rails at all 1264 01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:21,840 of misunderstanding. I pick up the phone and call 1265 01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,920 immediately because tone of voice and all of that stuff. 1266 01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:28,920 Again, there's an etiquette that I think that we're probably, you 1267 01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,320 know, we're going through growing pains as a society right 1268 01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:33,240 now. And perhaps one of the things 1269 01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,520 that we need to do is just, you know, train some of that 1270 01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:39,080 etiquette and again, citizenship back into our young people 1271 01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:41,560 growing up. I find it fascinating that you 1272 01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:46,360 are self aware as to who you were. 1273 01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:51,960 And I find it even a little brave to be able to talk about 1274 01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,000 who you were before versus who you are now. 1275 01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:56,960 Can you go down that path a little bit more like Jeremy, 1276 01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,280 like that's a, that's I, I appreciate the vulnerability you 1277 01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:05,200 talking about that because it feels like you're a kinder 1278 01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:09,640 person outside of just the digital version of you. 1279 01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:12,680 It feels like you're you've moved into a different path 1280 01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,280 outside of that as well. Well, in my mind I've always 1281 01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:20,840 been the same person. You know, the, the, my online 1282 01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:24,600 persona, so to speak, was not who I was, right? 1283 01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:30,720 Like I, I, I, I played a role on the Internet And, and so that, 1284 01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:32,000 that's how I felt at least, right? 1285 01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,440 Like if you, if you would have a conversation with me one-on-one, 1286 01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:39,320 you would be like, wait, that's not who I was just debating with 1287 01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:41,880 online last week. Like what, what are we, what, 1288 01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,640 what's happening here? And, and so I, I never felt like 1289 01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,680 I, I was a different person, but you know, when you talk, you 1290 01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:51,200 know, you want to know like, how do you do this right? 1291 01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,240 How do you stop being opinionated and then start being 1292 01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,120 and stop being, you know, be opinionated but not judgmental? 1293 01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:58,040 How is it done? Yes. 1294 01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:00,240 And I'm going to tell you it's not easy. 1295 01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:02,680 That's the that's the thing, because it's not. 1296 01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:05,120 And you know, there's a great, since we're talking about movies 1297 01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:08,600 and we and we both like pop culture, There's a great scene 1298 01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:13,360 in A League of Their Own where Tom Hanks and Geena Davis are 1299 01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:14,560 having a conversation. Right? 1300 01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:17,280 Dottie, she's just quit the team. 1301 01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:18,520 She's decided she's not going to play. 1302 01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:22,040 And Tom Hanks runs up to her, comes up to her and he's like, 1303 01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:24,480 what are you doing? And she's like, I'm done. 1304 01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:28,040 It's just too hard. And he looks at her straight in 1305 01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:31,960 the face and he goes, it's supposed to be hard. 1306 01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:37,080 The hard is what makes it great. And that to that to me is what 1307 01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:40,960 is what this is. It's like, yes, it is hard to 1308 01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:45,280 ignore people who are are saying things that you don't like and 1309 01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:47,120 you don't agree with. It's hard. 1310 01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:51,120 But you, you just, you have to do it because that's what makes 1311 01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:53,600 it so great. And that that's what I kind of 1312 01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:55,600 go back to, is that that scene in that movie. 1313 01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:58,920 It's hard to put down the spear when one's pointed at you, yeah. 1314 01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,120 It is. But that's the thing to do. 1315 01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:05,560 That's the thing to do. And humility. 1316 01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:07,680 I love that you talked about humility earlier. 1317 01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,520 I mean, you certainly, certainly in this, in this time that we've 1318 01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:16,840 gotten to know each other here have have I, I have, I've, I've 1319 01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:19,640 got journalists in my life, you know, and, and journalists are a 1320 01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:21,800 different ilk as well. Like, like I just, and I love 1321 01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:23,280 them. Don't get me wrong, I love them, 1322 01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:25,800 right? Like, like some of them, you 1323 01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:27,960 know, they're all like a little individual puzzle that I love to 1324 01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:30,000 just try and solve and their personalities in the way that 1325 01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:33,640 things go. But humility isn't necessarily 1326 01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:39,040 an attribute that I would naturally go to with as, as you 1327 01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,960 know, with most of them as the first, you know, description of, 1328 01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:44,960 of, of who they are. You certainly, certainly have 1329 01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:46,920 come across as a, as, as a humble person. 1330 01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:53,160 How long you been married now? Our only 14 years and like 2 1331 01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:55,320 weeks so. What's your wife's take on the 1332 01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:58,680 book? You know, she's, she doesn't 1333 01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:01,000 like me talking about personal things. 1334 01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,880 So she's always a little nervous about it, you know, like, no, 1335 01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,880 like, I mean in, in the book, because I, I talked, I, I talked 1336 01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:09,600 about our, our person, my personal journey, our lot of 1337 01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:10,880 biographical. Element to it you. 1338 01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:13,640 Know the the actual the actual concept of this story of the 1339 01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:17,120 opinionated not judgmental started with a conversation in 1340 01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:19,840 her with her family. We are, it was, it was Christmas 1341 01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:24,840 Eve and someone called my father-in-law judgmental for he 1342 01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:26,440 made, he made some kind of comment and someone goes, you're 1343 01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:28,480 being judgmental. He goes, I'm not judgmental, I'm 1344 01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:31,040 just opinionated. And that's, and, and that was 1345 01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:36,160 1213 years ago and that stuck with me all these years later. 1346 01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:38,560 And that's what I titled my book was based off of that, that 1347 01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:40,480 conversation. So the fact that I, I talk 1348 01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:43,880 about, you know, us and her family, she's just like, she's 1349 01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:45,360 like, oh, don't talk about me, you know, so. 1350 01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:49,200 I get that. Yeah, I get that. 1351 01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,040 But safe to say she's noticed the change in you though. 1352 01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:55,960 Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, and, and what a love 1353 01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,600 letter that is right there, you know, and, and, and a love 1354 01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:01,440 letter to the progress that you were making in life. 1355 01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:02,960 That's what he changed. It is all about. 1356 01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,960 I mean, they're, they're, they're going to be people who 1357 01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:08,640 listen to this or watch this and they do wake up. 1358 01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:11,120 They do Wait, go, wait a second. Hold on. 1359 01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:15,800 I am feeling that, that emptiness that, that, that can 1360 01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:20,640 come from being so locked into the machine and, and realizing 1361 01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:22,359 that perhaps that's exactly what it is. 1362 01:08:22,399 --> 01:08:24,960 You know, I, I've, I know, I know, I think everybody knows 1363 01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,200 people who used to have a great big group of friends and that 1364 01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:30,479 group of friends has dwindled and dwindled and dwindled as 1365 01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:34,000 they have, you know, moved into that online sort of a place. 1366 01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,040 If guys are out there listening to this or seeing this right now 1367 01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:39,840 and, and, and having that sort of awareness moment, where's the 1368 01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:42,840 best place to get the book? What do you do you have your own 1369 01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:44,800 website for it or is it just Amazon like? 1370 01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:48,439 Yeah, so we have our own website, opinionated-book.com, 1371 01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:50,960 but it's it's available on Amazon, it's available on 1372 01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:53,439 Kindle. So that's those are probably the 1373 01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:55,760 easiest places for your your audience to find it. 1374 01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:58,479 That's awesome. And I think, I think Joel was 1375 01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:00,359 talking earlier that that he changed and wants to get 1376 01:09:00,359 --> 01:09:01,399 someone. We want to maybe do some 1377 01:09:01,399 --> 01:09:03,520 giveaways and things like that with, with it as well. 1378 01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:06,319 Because I mean, I, I, I can't think of a topic that is more 1379 01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:09,920 timely and essential, but also under the surface. 1380 01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:12,439 And perhaps one that we don't necessarily because we're so 1381 01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:16,279 caught up in the machine, one that we don't necessarily go to 1382 01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:19,120 as, as, as a chief problem. But man, if we solve this 1383 01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:21,680 solution for a certain percentage of people, imagine 1384 01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:25,600 what other problems would be solved as a result of, of, of, 1385 01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:27,000 of getting into thinking this way. 1386 01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,880 So I'm grateful for that. Where do people want to if do 1387 01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,120 you do, do you have like, do you have a podcast? 1388 01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:33,840 Like a lot of people, they have a podcast in support of the 1389 01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:35,479 book. They have, you know, YouTube or 1390 01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:36,359 things like that. Are you? 1391 01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:39,840 Are you active on the socials in a healthy way these days? 1392 01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:42,279 Yes, I'm very I'm very active on the socials. 1393 01:09:42,279 --> 01:09:46,120 I don't have a podcast yet, but I have been posting short form 1394 01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:49,720 video content on a daily, sometimes multiple times a day 1395 01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:52,080 basis. So I'm on, I'm on Tiktok, I'm on 1396 01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:56,320 YouTube Shorts, I'm on Instagram and on Facebook so. 1397 01:09:56,480 --> 01:09:58,960 You're on the Facebook. I had an old man I, I, I have 1398 01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:02,880 the Instagram, but it's only a it just it just plays repeat 1399 01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:04,040 stuff that I post on the Facebook. 1400 01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:05,040 I'm that guy too. So I'm glad you're. 1401 01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:07,280 There if people want to find you, mine is too. 1402 01:10:07,480 --> 01:10:09,960 Now, now you're you're, you're Jeremy with the a. 1403 01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:15,560 You're actually a Jeremy. JER AM YGORDON on Facebook. 1404 01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:16,520 Is that where? People can find you. 1405 01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:18,840 Yep, and you can search. Opinionated, not judgmental. 1406 01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:21,440 And it'll it'll show up as well. It'll find out there. 1407 01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,000 I can't thank you enough for taking time out of your busy 1408 01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:26,200 schedule to come on here and just talk about the book today. 1409 01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:31,320 I, I, you know, we changed it really, really love to talk to 1410 01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:35,400 people who are trying to make the world a better place by 1411 01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:38,360 talking about their journey. And I don't know if there's a 1412 01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:40,160 journey that's been more kind of vulnerable than you. 1413 01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:44,760 It it, it, it, it permeated your career, clearly, your family 1414 01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:47,640 life, all of these things. And and not only did you learn 1415 01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:49,720 something, but you wrote a book about what you learned. 1416 01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,480 Thank you very much for putting that out there and and and being 1417 01:10:53,480 --> 01:10:58,480 vulnerable enough, Jeremy, to to show folks, you know, a little 1418 01:10:58,480 --> 01:11:01,200 bit under the armour and and the journey that you've been on. 1419 01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,720 It's a unique 1. And I just want to say thank you 1420 01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:07,200 so much for for for writing this book and thank you for appearing 1421 01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:09,200 on he cast today. Yeah, thanks for having me, 1422 01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:10,800 Mike. I mean, honestly, I love sharing 1423 01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:12,960 my story and I want to. I hope I, you know, I hope I 1424 01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:16,280 help someone today. Absolutely, absolutely. 1425 01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:18,960 That's why we do the show. Everybody we talked about this. 1426 01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:22,520 I, I, I finish almost every single conversation the same way 1427 01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:23,760 saying This is why we do the show. 1428 01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:28,400 And it is, it's it's if if you're out there and you, you 1429 01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:30,960 feel like maybe that there's an emptiness that's there and maybe 1430 01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:33,080 you want to get a little bit more fulfilled. 1431 01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:38,200 The idea of opinionated, not judge mental is, is, is one that 1432 01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:41,960 I think is a philosophy all of us as a species should, should 1433 01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:44,120 try and envelope. And perhaps it's right for you. 1434 01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:46,920 If you haven't downloaded the he changed it app yet, What the 1435 01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:48,800 heck are you waiting for? Go to hechangedit.com and you 1436 01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:50,400 can check out all the things that we're doing. 1437 01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:52,560 Try you know what? They're trying to make the world 1438 01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:55,520 a better place. And, and, and, and really it 1439 01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:57,400 starts with you. It starts with us, right. 1440 01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:00,880 So this has been another episode of he cast the official podcast 1441 01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:02,920 of he changed it. My name is Mike Chisholm. 1442 01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:04,200 Go change something.