1
00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,640
Welcome to Heat cast, the 
official podcast of Heat changed

2
00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:05,040
it. 
As always, I am Mike Chisholm. 

3
00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:09,600
As always, I am so excited to 
have conversations in the space 

4
00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,040
of men's mental Wellness. 
I love what it is that we do. 

5
00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:15,040
And, and thank you, by the way, 
if we've gotten a bunch of 

6
00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,400
recent feedback from people who 
are saying that the show is 

7
00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,600
helping shape perspectives and, 
and, and, and, and create 

8
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,560
reflection for people. 
A reflection is something we're 

9
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:24,640
going to talk about in this 
episode here. 

10
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,080
As you know, I really love when 
we have different coaches of 

11
00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,119
different, you know, modalities 
on the show today. 

12
00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:34,080
We've got a guy who has 
specialized, he's been a 

13
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:35,920
business coach and a career 
coach and whatnot, But he's 

14
00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:40,120
really, really moved into the 
space of, of, of helping guys 

15
00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,200
who have gone through or are 
going through divorces. 

16
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,200
And, and, and the perspective 
that he has comes from an 

17
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,440
experience that he went through.
He went through a really, really

18
00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,600
hard divorce with, you know, the
kind of the kitchen thing sink 

19
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,280
thrown at it as to the stuff he 
went through and, and, and has 

20
00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,360
come out on the other side in a,
in a, in a very positive way and

21
00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,640
has taken that experience and is
using it to help others. 

22
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,400
He's a he's a podcast host and a
coach. 

23
00:01:05,239 --> 00:01:10,640
He and his Co host Jim host the 
imperfect men's club podcast, 

24
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,520
the imperfect men's club 
podcast. 

25
00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,080
Boy, I think most of us can say 
we're members of that club 

26
00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,840
already. 
But also his name is Mark 

27
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,080
Aylward. 
He has a coaching practice of 

28
00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,080
his own and we talk about all of
that on the show here today. 

29
00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,480
I'll tell you this, lots of 
tangible things for guys who are

30
00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,480
listening to this that are going
through something that's not 

31
00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,080
necessarily divorce or anything 
like that. 

32
00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,880
I'm saying something. 
There are so many tangible 

33
00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:37,960
things to show. 
A couple things in this episode.

34
00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:42,120
First off, you're not alone, OK?
Don't think you are because we 

35
00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,200
all go through stuff right. 
So that's one of the things. 

36
00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,720
But second, there's a way out 
through and and and as Mark 

37
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:50,920
talks about, I really appreciate
his perspective. 

38
00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,200
He talks about stuff that is 
simple and and and free or cheap

39
00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,200
ways to get moving in the right 
direction to improving your 

40
00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:00,800
life. 
I really appreciate the 

41
00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,000
conversation today. 
Please enjoy this episode of he 

42
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,880
Cast featuring coach and post of
the Imperfect Men's Club Podcast

43
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:26,760
Mark Ilward. 
OK, Mark, you know, I always 

44
00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,760
talk about how in the intro, you
hear me talk about, you know, 

45
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,400
I'm so excited to have these 
conversations around the space 

46
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,000
of men's mental Wellness, and I 
am. 

47
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,400
It's legitimate, every single 
one of these things, It's like a

48
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,360
Faberge egg to me. 
I love conversation. 

49
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:40,760
I'm a relationship connection 
guy. 

50
00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:47,000
But man, when I looked at what 
you have done or what you're 

51
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,080
doing now, I should say to 
literally, quite literally make 

52
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,320
the world a better place 
specifically for men, you've 

53
00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,560
you've moved a coaching career 
into a very niche market and 

54
00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,840
that niche seems to be exactly 
the mission of what he changed. 

55
00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:06,440
It is I am so excited to talk to
you today, specifically around 

56
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,120
the idea of helping guys as they
go through divorce, being 

57
00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:11,360
coached through some of these 
hard things. 

58
00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,680
But also it's a much bigger 
conversation than that. 

59
00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,320
As you know, Mark, I'm so 
excited to have you here. 

60
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,560
Welcome to he cast today. 
Thank you, Mike. 

61
00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,440
It's a pleasure to be here. 
Thanks for having me. 

62
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,080
Yeah, man, it's this is great. 
Now, now, at the end of the day,

63
00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:29,440
I'm a big believer that we can 
take the stuff that goes on in 

64
00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,240
our life, no matter how heinous 
it might be and turn it into 

65
00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,440
something beautiful. 
There are guys who listen to 

66
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,520
this right now who who have come
to the he changed it world or or

67
00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,280
listen to he cast literally as a
last resort. 

68
00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,040
Maybe they got a loved one 
where, you know, they're 

69
00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:46,920
understanding that that 
person's, you know, warning 

70
00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,080
lights are going on or whatever.
Hey, they're like, Hey, listen 

71
00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,200
to this or hey, look at this 
app, whatever. 

72
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,720
Before we get into your story, 
before we get into what it is 

73
00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,920
that you do in your podcast and 
whatnot. 

74
00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:04,080
The encouragement that 
everything is temporary from 

75
00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,640
somebody who understands that at
the same rock bottom that some 

76
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,960
of these guys might be at right 
now, you can say that proof 

77
00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,840
positive as a testament that not
only is everything temporary, 

78
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,200
but you might think that 
everything is so bleak, but you 

79
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,880
can find joy and you can find 
light on the other side. 

80
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,200
And I want to start with that 
with you because you certainly 

81
00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,840
seem to have done that. 
The idea of taking lemons and 

82
00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:30,320
making them into lemonade seems 
to be your entire MO. 

83
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,160
Let's go into that and then 
let's let's kind of unpack it a 

84
00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,720
little bit to talk about how you
got to where you are and what 

85
00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,360
you do for people. 
Yeah, I, I would probably just 

86
00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,840
back that up and just say, you 
know, to me it's everything's a 

87
00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:46,680
choice, right? 
And, and, and everything, and, 

88
00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:51,040
and on top of that, I think that
in my experience, it's been the 

89
00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,600
case that it's not about what 
happens to you. 

90
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,160
It never has been about what 
happens to you because you don't

91
00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,040
have any control over that for 
the most part. 

92
00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:01,920
It's about how you choose to 
respond to what happens to you. 

93
00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,960
And as cliche as that sounds, 
it's so true. 

94
00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,480
You know, I was just having a 
conversation with my son. 

95
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:09,880
He was upset about something I 
said. 

96
00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,040
Dude, I see the lesson in this 
thing. 

97
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:13,520
If you don't see it yet, keep 
looking. 

98
00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,000
Look harder, 'cause it's there, 
you know? 

99
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,000
Yeah. 
And so, and, and I also think, 

100
00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:21,920
again, this is just my lived 
experience, that the only way 

101
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,800
that I've ever failed at 
anything is, is that I've quit, 

102
00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,560
you know, and we all quit stuff.
I mean, sometimes it's good to 

103
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,720
quit certain things you're and 
that might be harder sometimes 

104
00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,320
than not quitting. 
But if you don't give up, you'll

105
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,560
get where you want to go. 
And it that's just true. 

106
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,400
You know, you can argue that all
day long, but at least for me, 

107
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,200
it's been true. 
Well, and taking, like I say, a 

108
00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,720
coaching practice and, and you 
really do have a width and 

109
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,120
breadth of experience that you 
could coach on a, on a, on a, on

110
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,720
a, on a lot of subjects, whether
it comes to business and, and, 

111
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,880
and and and perhaps mindset 
money and all that. 

112
00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,400
But to move it into divorce, I 
think you're really hitting 

113
00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:06,400
something where there are things
with like what you just said 

114
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,920
that many times won't be able to
rectify themselves in men's 

115
00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,280
head, the idea of quitting 
versus not quitting. 

116
00:06:12,840 --> 00:06:16,240
And and and, you know, would I 
be happier on the other side? 

117
00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,520
Or is this a storm that we can 
persevere through? 

118
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,760
And that is a really, really 
difficult precipice to stand 

119
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,640
upon sometimes for guys out 
there when it comes to, you 

120
00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,200
know, arguably the most intimate
relationship in their life. 

121
00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,520
Yeah, yeah. 
It's, you know, I, I certainly 

122
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,720
had the benefit of being able to
say, you know, I have to, I have

123
00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,480
to take care of my kids here. 
I have to, I have to do 

124
00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,040
literally every moment of every 
day. 

125
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,720
I have to consider the, the 
concept of what's in the best 

126
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,000
interest of my children, the 
words that I use, the actions 

127
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,240
that I take, showing up 
consistently. 

128
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,120
You know, all the stuff that you
would want to do for a loved one

129
00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,920
or any kind of friend that you 
cared for is that that was kind 

130
00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,080
of my North Star. 
And that simplified everything. 

131
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,840
Didn't make it easier, but it 
made it less complicated, if 

132
00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:06,840
that makes sense. 
Yeah, it does. 

133
00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:10,400
Like, OK, so, so again, going 
back to it, you know, do I quit?

134
00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:11,720
Do I stay? 
Do I persevere? 

135
00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,680
Do I not, though? 
There's that. 

136
00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,040
And then what you just brought 
up is you brought something into

137
00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:17,520
it where it was like, OK, the 
kids. 

138
00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,640
Because I mean, you know, I 
think about how I feel about my 

139
00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,200
stepsons. 
I feel about how I think about 

140
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:23,200
how I feel about my 
granddaughter. 

141
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:24,920
I do anything for them. 
And it's it's one of those 

142
00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,760
things where, you know, there's 
that cliche, oh, you never stay 

143
00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,640
together for just the kids kind 
of no problem. 

144
00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,600
Okay, next. 
No, it's way more complicated 

145
00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,040
than that. 
There are many times where I can

146
00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,040
show you examples where, you 
know, staying together in a 

147
00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,200
miserable spot for the kids is 
preferable to the alternative. 

148
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,560
And it's always nuanced. 
It's never black and white. 

149
00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,120
It's always Gray. 
So that's another choice that 

150
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,280
there are guys who are in that 
place too. 

151
00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:55,920
But like, I love how you went 
back again. 

152
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,640
It's a, you know, Mark Mattson, 
the subtle art of not giving a 

153
00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,560
fuck. 
You know, not everything is our 

154
00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,920
fault, but everything is our 
responsibility, including these 

155
00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,680
nuanced conversations. 
What I have found, though, when 

156
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,120
you're in this, this, this, this
place that does require the Gray

157
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,600
area, you are not alone is one 
of the most important things. 

158
00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,120
And having somebody who is there
to kind of be a sounding board 

159
00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,520
for you. 
And again, not necessarily offer

160
00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,240
advice, but perspective is an 
essential part of that. 

161
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,040
That's kind of what your gig is 
now, right? 

162
00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,200
It is, it kind of always has 
been, you know, the, the ability

163
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,360
to get inside somebody's head 
with permission and really 

164
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,760
understand where the 
opportunities are to, to help. 

165
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,679
And, you know, I spent my career
in the staffing space helping 

166
00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,040
people find better jobs, mostly 
as the owner operator of a 

167
00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,920
company. 
So I had that responsibility 

168
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:48,680
too. 
But yeah, it's the same thing. 

169
00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:51,400
I remember walking around the 
courtroom like for 9 or 10 

170
00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,920
years, like on a monthly basis, 
and I would see guys sitting on 

171
00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,200
benches or standing up against 
walls and everyone was sad, 

172
00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,160
Everyone was anxious, everyone 
was scared and many of them were

173
00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,440
angry. 
None of those emotions are good 

174
00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,640
for making big decisions. 
And I found myself, I found 

175
00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,640
myself walking up to guys and 
just saying, can I help you with

176
00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:13,840
something? 
You look a little bit. 

177
00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:15,320
Do you need to know where 
something is? 

178
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,800
Unfortunately, I know where 
everything in here is. 

179
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,640
You know, if you need a room for
some service. 

180
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:26,840
But and they were so thankful, 
even if it was just a kind word 

181
00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,920
that that kind of stuck. 
And then as I sought out 

182
00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,320
resources to help me, what I 
found was two things. 

183
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,720
One is I was guilty until proven
innocent the whole time because 

184
00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,000
I was a guy. 
And that's a that's like the 

185
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,360
1950s courtroom, right? 
They're stuck in the 50s. 

186
00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,800
And then, and then the other 
thing was there were no 

187
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,640
resources for men to what 
something you said earlier, the 

188
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,080
all the resources were for 
women, which is, which is great 

189
00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,480
for women, but it doesn't help 
men because I'm a big proponent 

190
00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,600
of the fact that men and women 
are very different. 

191
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,120
And when I was younger, we used 
to celebrate those differences 

192
00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,080
and now we're trying to 
seemingly erase them, which I 

193
00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,080
think is bad for everybody, you 
know. 

194
00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,720
So I'll, I'll let you go. 
I don't want to go down that 

195
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,520
rabbit hole. 
No, but the pendulum is well, 

196
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:14,880
that's why he changed. 
It exists. 

197
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,840
And I mean, you know, there's a 
she changed, it happened, they 

198
00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,800
changed, it happened. 
And, and at the end of the day, 

199
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,840
if we can really understand who 
we are, and this goes way beyond

200
00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,920
gender, if we can understand who
we are as a human being, we can 

201
00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,760
comprehend who we are, what 
makes us tick, how we relate to 

202
00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:34,040
others on the highest of high 
levels, everything that the 

203
00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,760
bird's eye view, we're going to 
be a better member of our 

204
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,720
collective community. 
But many times we don't do that 

205
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,680
introspective work. 
And again, men, like you said, I

206
00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:45,800
mean, if he change it exists. 
I mean, the topic that keeps 

207
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,240
coming up over and over and over
again is the idea of you're not 

208
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:49,880
alone. 
Because so many guys think that 

209
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:51,080
they are. 
They think they're the only one 

210
00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,240
that are going through what 
they're going through, whereas 

211
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,280
they might be in a committed 
relationship or, or, or have a 

212
00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:57,440
lot of strong women around their
lives. 

213
00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,280
They don't go through those 
crises at all because they're 

214
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,000
hardwired to let that stuff out.
And, and, and guys just aren't, 

215
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,520
we talk about that all the time 
here. 

216
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,320
So, so the idea of you being in 
these courtrooms and you know, 

217
00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,480
again, to, not, to, not to steal
Thunder or, or to truncate your 

218
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,520
story in any way. 
But you went through one of 

219
00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,400
these divorces that was long and
it was bloody and it was awful 

220
00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:21,040
to the point where you were one 
of these guys that, that that 

221
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,840
said the lawyers aren't helping.
And you got the knowledge that 

222
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,920
you needed to get and ended up 
representing yourself throughout

223
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,560
that whole thing. 
Not only that, you have then 

224
00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:33,080
taken all of these things that 
you learned along the way and 

225
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,680
you're like literally 
broadcasting them for everybody,

226
00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:39,480
which I think is beyond 
commendable In going through 

227
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,800
that, The idea you just brought 
it back to you're not alone. 

228
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,800
You see these guys who are in 
this place. 

229
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,200
I love what you said about how 
these emotions are not a good 

230
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,520
place to make decisions from. 
I I love that when you saw that,

231
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,000
like, was that really the tip of
the spear showing them that, 

232
00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,040
hey, I see you and you're not 
alone. 

233
00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,840
Yeah, yeah. 
Well, the other thing that I 

234
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,400
keep thinking about as you're 
talking is we don't we don't ask

235
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,280
for help. 
You know, men don't. 

236
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,560
Back before the GPS days, we 
wouldn't ask for directions. 

237
00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:10,960
It's the same concept. 
Stereotype. 

238
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,160
Yeah, Yeah. 
And it's stereotypes are 

239
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,440
stereotypes for a reason. 
They're they're, they're mostly 

240
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,040
true, you know, true to. 
Them for sure. 

241
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,800
Yeah, and, and it another thing 
that strikes me is, you know, I 

242
00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:23,640
was thinking about this when I 
was creating some content 

243
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:28,040
earlier today that my main 
mission right now, beyond just 

244
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,560
what you're helping me with 
right now, which is awareness, 

245
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,720
is can I trust this guy? 
You know, and if I how, how, how

246
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,000
do I determine whether I can 
trust this guy? 

247
00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,160
And that's why when you asked me
at the beginning, the biggest 

248
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,960
weapon I have is complete and 
total transparency, which 

249
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,560
hopefully creates a level of 
authenticity. 

250
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,720
I'm not hiding behind anything, 
right. 

251
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,960
And, and the combination of 
there's three things I think the

252
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,640
staffing experience like 
investigating who people are so 

253
00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,080
that you can represent them as, 
as if you were them, right? 

254
00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:02,920
That's, that's how you do that 
job. 

255
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,240
Well, it's a relationship 
business. 

256
00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:10,000
And then two of two of my 3 kids
are dot or daughters, our 

257
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,840
daughters and, and young women. 
And when they lost their mom, 

258
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,400
like literally not speaking to 
her for 10 years, they, she 

259
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,240
abandoned them and they're 
estranged as we speak. 

260
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,240
So I took on the role of mother 
and father. 

261
00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:25,360
And so they taught me how to 
listen. 

262
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,880
They taught me more empathy. 
They taught me how women think. 

263
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,840
They taught me a lot of stuff 
that I don't think men in 

264
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,040
general are, are present in that
empathetic state. 

265
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,920
The to the extent that women can
do that, but I, I picked that up

266
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,280
and I've had a couple guys say 
to me, you have an empathy and 

267
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,440
a, and a lack of judgement that 
most men don't bring to these 

268
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,400
conversations. 
And I'm playing that's where it 

269
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,760
comes from. 
You know, on top of the fact 

270
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,480
that once you see how effective 
it is and how helpful it is, you

271
00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:00,080
double down on it, right? 
Yeah, the the idea that you said

272
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,640
something there, I thought it 
was very, very interesting. 

273
00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:03,640
So in your mind, empathy is a 
skill. 

274
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,040
It's something that can be 
taught. 

275
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,240
It's like a skill. 
I think I had it, but we turned 

276
00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,000
up the volume. 
Yeah. 

277
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,400
And I think it can be taught. 
I think most things can be 

278
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:14,840
taught. 
That that's one of my adages 

279
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,360
from the staffing spaces. 
I don't, I never hired for 

280
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:20,640
credentials or experience. 
I hired for character because 

281
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,320
you can teach almost everything 
else. 

282
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:24,080
I'll see. 
There you go. 

283
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,600
Including how to get out of, you
know, situations that seem 

284
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,000
impossible and restart and and 
all of that. 

285
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,960
Take responsibility for where 
things are AT and then, and then

286
00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,320
move forward. 
You know, do you like, I would 

287
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,040
love if you did provide a little
bit of background as to what you

288
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,520
went through? 
You know, I kind of set the 

289
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,200
table a little bit and, and, and
kind of gave broad strokes. 

290
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,280
But, and again, we're not, it's 
not about burying an axe or 

291
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,360
doing anything like that. 
There are guys, though, who are 

292
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,680
going through significant 
struggle and, and, and, you 

293
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,960
know, you were certainly one of 
those places, you know, you 

294
00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,360
alluded to it, the idea of, of, 
of, of a kid, you know, being 

295
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,800
estranged from the one you 
called your wife, incredibly 

296
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,920
complex stuff emotionally and, 
and, and, and, and you had to 

297
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,240
kind of feel your way through 
it. 

298
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,400
Not only that as you were going 
through the adversity of being 

299
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,800
attacked. 
So, so, so could you maybe talk 

300
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,000
a little bit about what you went
through and then we'll talk 

301
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,560
about what you did about it? 
Yeah. 

302
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,360
So the entirety, you know, 
people like to ask me what 

303
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,160
happened or when did it happen. 
I'm like, that's not how it 

304
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,160
works. 
You know, it's, it evolves over 

305
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:30,800
time. 
It's not a light switch that 

306
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:36,080
turns on and off, but it started
to be, she was going through 

307
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:37,800
like a midlife crisis or 
something. 

308
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,360
And I think it goes back to 
childhood trauma with her. 

309
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,080
And if I were a psychologist, I 
could give you a diagnosis. 

310
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,400
But I would say, you know, it 
was probably narcissism and 

311
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,800
probably a number of other 
psychological things that when 

312
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,400
it came time for her to say I 
got to work on my stuff, she did

313
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,520
not make that choice. 
She said, I'm just going to beat

314
00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,800
the shit out of this guy and 
everything's his fault. 

315
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,440
So that was a foreign thing to 
me for a long time because I 

316
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,080
didn't grow up around that. 
I never met anybody like that. 

317
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,120
I'd never met, at least I didn't
think I'd ever met a narcissist 

318
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,280
before, But and I'd never been a
criminal. 

319
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,000
I I was never a liar or a 
cheater or a stealer. 

320
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,600
I never took advantage of other 
people with any malice. 

321
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,480
So the whole thing was foreign 
to me and I filed for divorce 

322
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,720
and because it was it was too 
much for my children, it was it 

323
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,880
became clear to me that the only
thing that you want from the 

324
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,440
children is to cause me pain. 
And you don't seem to understand

325
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,320
that all that does is cause them
pain. 

326
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,880
And so really, really intense 
kind of reaction to that. 

327
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:46,720
But when I served papers and she
made my daughter answer the door

328
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,600
to to get served, she wouldn't 
do it herself. 

329
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,480
I got escorted out of my house 
that night under a domestic 

330
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,040
violence injunction that was 
completely fabricated. 

331
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,600
It was a reaction to my filing 
papers. 

332
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,840
And so I couldn't see my kids or
talk to my kids for six weeks 

333
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,040
until trial. 
And if I did, I would would have

334
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,280
been thrown in jail. 
And when I got to trial, the 

335
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,200
judge figured it out pretty 
quick and dismissed it in about 

336
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,560
5 minutes. 
And he said to me, you're free 

337
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,440
to go back to your house right 
now, Mr. Ehl. 

338
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,160
But I want to make something 
very clear. 

339
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,800
If you do, one of two things is 
going to happen. 

340
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:21,960
You're going to do or say the 
wrong thing. 

341
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,280
She's going to call the police 
and you're going to go to jail 

342
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,640
or you're going to do or say 
nothing and she's going to call 

343
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,080
the police and you're going to 
go to jail. 

344
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,600
Is that clear? 
I'm like, oh, shit, yeah, 

345
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,640
unfortunately, that's clear. 
So, you know, and then it was 

346
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,600
she went through six or seven 
attorneys, I think it was 7 

347
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,720
because she would either fire 
them or they would quit because 

348
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,360
she was an unreasonable human 
being. 

349
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,040
And we had 6 judges. 
And, and every time I went into 

350
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,720
the courtroom with a new judge, 
they would lead by saying, OK, 

351
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,400
why are we here today? 
I'm like, you got to be fucking 

352
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,320
kidding me. 
You didn't read anything. 

353
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,800
You know, what are you coming 
off the golf course? 

354
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,600
And I found that all these 
judges were older, and they were

355
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,840
just jaded. 
They'd seen so much of the 

356
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,800
underbelly of humanity, and 
they'd seen so many people just 

357
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,120
lying and cheating and stealing 
that they thought everybody did 

358
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,160
that, and they didn't believe 
anything I said, and it had 

359
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,800
nothing to do with me. 
And then the last judge was a 

360
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:22,360
relatively younger woman and she
actually was the only judge and 

361
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:26,320
the first judge to, to actually 
sit down and think, now I'm, I'm

362
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,160
going to do everything we're 
going to do here is going to be 

363
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:29,680
what's in the best interest of 
the children. 

364
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,280
I thought to myself, Hallelujah,
finally, you know, and then, you

365
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:39,320
know, I, we had, I, I, I, I was 
final that the first round in 

366
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:44,280
2011 or 2007. 
And then I went back as my own 

367
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:49,040
attorney to get custody and that
came to conclusion in 2011 and I

368
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,080
and I got back pay and, and 
child support and alimony, which

369
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,560
was just, it wasn't a 
significant amount of money, but

370
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,880
it was a hell of a lot of fun. 
I got to chuckle out of that. 

371
00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:59,920
You know, that just pissed her 
off to no end. 

372
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,880
And you know, my daughter's had 
run away from her years before 

373
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,080
then they just took all their 
stuff that they could fit into 

374
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,360
the truck and they drove over to
my house and said we're not 

375
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:10,960
going back. 
And even though she had 5050 

376
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,160
custody, she kept getting her 
checks. 

377
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,440
So she didn't really care and 
she never came after them. 

378
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:21,000
So my son was left behind and he
had told, apparently had told 

379
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,000
her, 'cause I said, dude, come 
on over, let's just all live 

380
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,440
together. 
And he said, Dad, I can't. 

381
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,520
Mommy said if I leave her, 
she'll kill herself, you know, 

382
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,840
so that that's the kind of thing
she was capable of. 

383
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:33,440
So you really don't have to tell
too much more about her. 

384
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,120
Anybody that's willing to do 
that is pretty much capable of 

385
00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:39,760
anything. 
And yeah, they're representing 

386
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,160
myself was AI became very 
appreciative of the level of 

387
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,040
detail and work that attorneys 
have to go through because it 

388
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,600
was a it was a whirlwind of 
information and and and 

389
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,400
learning. 
But yeah, the kids are great. 

390
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,000
You know, they they are they 
struggle sometimes with the 

391
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,760
anxiety that comes with just 
being abandoned by your mother. 

392
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,480
That doesn't just go away. 
It resurfaces now and then. 

393
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,400
But they're all very productive 
young adults. 

394
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:05,960
And we ought we have a very 
strong. 

395
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,760
I have a very strong 
relationship with all three of 

396
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,600
them. 
So that's the divorce story, and

397
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,160
you can poke, poke at that. 
I appreciate that. 

398
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:14,960
Well, yeah, I got lots of places
to poke on that. 

399
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:20,280
And so the, so you talk about 
the abandonment thing and we've 

400
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,520
had, that's actually come up 
here on the show a couple of 

401
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,560
times, the childhood trauma, you
know, lowercase T, uppercase T 

402
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,520
trauma stuff. 
But abandonment is one of those 

403
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,880
subtle ones, you know, you, you,
you toss it out there right now 

404
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,280
like it is a known thing now 
that's for you and that's great.

405
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,240
Do they know that? 
Do they know that they actually 

406
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,600
have abandonment issues and and 
and? 

407
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,480
Does the awareness of that alone
help? 

408
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,000
Yeah, Yeah. 
That's a great question. 

409
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,760
I think my daughters have both 
done significant internal work 

410
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:57,040
with therapists and, you know, 
different holistic types of 

411
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,120
health related things. 
We're all athletes and we 

412
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:04,280
exercise a lot, we eat well. 
So we were supporting ourselves 

413
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:06,760
within the things that we can 
control. 

414
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,360
My son hasn't really addressed 
those issues. 

415
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,040
If he looks and feels to the 
outside world, fine. 

416
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,760
But he's a man, so he's stubborn
about working on himself. 

417
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,640
And in spite of the fact that I 
am who I am and and the girls 

418
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,800
are who they are, he doesn't 
walk around all day struggling 

419
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,600
with too much. 
But there's a few things that 

420
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,880
you can tell frustration or 
anger or anxiety that creep in. 

421
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,560
I'm like, dude, I think you got 
to, you got to go find out where

422
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,840
those things are and you got to 
kind of caress him a little bit.

423
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,680
Otherwise you're going to have 
that hanging over you for for 

424
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,680
the rest of your life. 
But but to some extent, Mike, as

425
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,200
you know, we all have things 
dangling over. 

426
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:47,400
Nobody's fixing everything. 
Nobody's perfect. 

427
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,800
We're all, that's why we called 
it the Imperfect Men's Club for 

428
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,160
our podcast. 
It's like the imperfection is in

429
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,840
fact the perfection, you know 
so. 

430
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,880
I love that. 
And, and, and you know, you're 

431
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,400
talking about your son there. 
And it's, that's the second time

432
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,440
that when, when, when talking 
about parenting at this stage, 

433
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,560
you know, because we all know, 
well, most of us know, if we, if

434
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,600
we haven't become aware of it, 
you know, the moment I say it, 

435
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,160
it'll be an aha moment, then we 
all know the kids become parent 

436
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,680
deaf, you know, early on in 
many, many respects. 

437
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,960
And, and that parent deafness 
can has a scale of, of, of where

438
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,040
it can be versus the actual, you
know, listening. 

439
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,920
And, and I love one of the 
things that you said earlier 

440
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,360
when you were talking about your
son, say, Hey, you know, can you

441
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:32,560
see the lesson in this right? 
Yet, you know, the idea of not 

442
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,760
trying to, you know, strong arm 
it and force it down the throat 

443
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,200
as a, as a, as a dad, how we can
do that, you know, but it's, 

444
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,760
it's, it's, it's more of an 
invitation for exploration. 

445
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,080
If they choose to go down that 
path, they can go down that 

446
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,520
path, But you're also giving 
room for him to, you know, 

447
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,600
figure things out on his own 
and, and, and also letting him 

448
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,280
know, you know, I have some 
insight here if you want to hear

449
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,440
it, but you're going to have to 
ask for it kind of a thing. 

450
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,080
I, I think that's a delicate 
balance. 

451
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,600
And and I love, I love that that
the way that you, you know, 

452
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:02,920
you're for you. 
You talk about that. 

453
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,680
Clearly that's the version of 
our self that we want to be. 

454
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,080
Sometimes tougher when you're in
the moment with these creatures 

455
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,040
that were more emotional about 
than anything, right? 

456
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,200
Very much so, yeah. 
You know, it's, it's one of the 

457
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,480
reasons I think I can be more of
most effective with men that 

458
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,000
are, you know, strangers to me 
at, at the introduction, because

459
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:23,840
I bring an objectivity to a 
situation that's completely 

460
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,440
emotional. 
And when you're to to what I 

461
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,200
said earlier, when you're 
emotional, one of the things I 

462
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,680
teach in my staffing space, my 
coaching space, that's just 

463
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,280
salesmanship is you know, is you
know, you can, you can look at 

464
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,320
things however you want to look 
at them. 

465
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,840
And you know, being being able 
to when you're, when you 

466
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,440
encounter something that makes 
you emotional, negatively 

467
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:54,040
emotional, angry, anxious, 
frustrated, the best thing you 

468
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,960
can do. 
My dad taught this to me from 

469
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,400
the perspective of a fighter 
pilot, an airline pilot. 

470
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,320
What do you do when an engine 
catches on fire? 

471
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:01,960
I don't know, dad, what do you 
do? 

472
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,640
Nothing. 
You pause and you allow yourself

473
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,640
to regain your objectivity. 
And then most of us, when we get

474
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,760
back to objective, we have the 
rule book, we have the handbook,

475
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,520
we have the employee handbook, 
we have the the documentation. 

476
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,280
It's there in our heads. 
We learned it a long time ago. 

477
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,840
But you have to allow yourself 
to get back to that. 

478
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,360
Otherwise you're just lashing 
out. 

479
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,560
And I certainly did a lot of 
that as I learned about all 

480
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,760
this, you know? 
Yeah, I want to go back before 

481
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,120
we go too far away from it to 
something else that I want to 

482
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:36,320
poke at. 
When it comes to your story, you

483
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,360
talk about the idea of your 
realization that you know, 

484
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:41,200
you're with somebody who doesn't
have the same. 

485
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,880
And again, I just try and be, as
you know, we don't want to be at

486
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,320
a space where we're burying 
other people and things like 

487
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:48,440
that. 
But at the same time, it's 

488
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,680
objectivity and, and, and, and 
you know, you've got somebody 

489
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,800
who you're realizing, you have a
realization that they aren't 

490
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,280
maybe capable. 
Use the, the N word. 

491
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,320
That's, that's been everywhere, 
the narcissist, you know, word 

492
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,440
that, that, that you, you 
realize you're with somebody 

493
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,720
that doesn't have the same kind 
of empathy towards others as you

494
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,160
know, and the behavior is there 
and you realize what they're 

495
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,960
capable of. 
There are guys right now who are

496
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,200
kind of grappling with that 
realization where they're at as 

497
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,920
their life is moving at 100 
miles an hour and they're trying

498
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,840
to be the provider and they're 
trying to be the parent and, 

499
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,000
and, and things like that are 
happening. 

500
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,680
Was that a realization that was 
kind of a slap in the face, you 

501
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,800
know, a bucket of cold water? 
Or was it something that you 

502
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,040
were realizing over time? 
And for guys who are in that 

503
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,840
situation, you know, do you have
any perspective? 

504
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,280
Well, I was my own worst enemy 
for a while because of and I 

505
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,960
think naivete is probably a good
word. 

506
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,400
You know, these are things I 
didn't want to believe. 

507
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,720
These are things I had no 
experience with. 

508
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,040
And you, you're really. 
So it wasn't a slap in the face 

509
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,760
as much as it was an an 
occasional dude. 

510
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,080
You know, I remember saying to 
my younger brother one time, I 

511
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,600
can't believe she did this or I 
can't believe she said that. 

512
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,360
And he's like, hey, man, at 
least she's consistent. 

513
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,320
There's no surprises here. 
And I'm like, that's a that's a 

514
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,280
really good perspective. 
Thank, thank. 

515
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,280
Thank you for saying that. 
Yeah. 

516
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,960
You know, so it, it's, it's 
hindsight's 2020, right? 

517
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,000
I, I think, I think it goes back
to that. 

518
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,840
But yeah, no, it wasn't a slap 
in the face. 

519
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,960
It was AI mean filing for 
divorce was the hardest thing 

520
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,280
I've ever done. 
I'm I, I was raised Catholic. 

521
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,560
I am practicing Catholic. 
I'm a faithful guy. 

522
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,000
I don't believe in divorce and 
and I didn't, you know, I 

523
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,760
thought it was going to hurt my 
children, but it actually helped

524
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,520
them. 
Remember saying to a guy a 

525
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,560
couple weeks ago going through 
something very similar, my heart

526
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,040
goes out to the guy. 
And I just said, you know, I got

527
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,560
to stop the conversation for a 
SEC. 

528
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:44,560
Joe. 
And I want to tell you one 

529
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,760
thing. 
Your kids are kids are a lot 

530
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,560
stronger than you think they 
are. 

531
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,880
And you're not going to do 
anything if you stay 

532
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,880
well-intentioned and try to 
maintain a level of objectivity,

533
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,280
no matter what happens, they're 
going to be OK. 

534
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,240
I can almost promise you that. 
And he started crying. 

535
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,520
It was that important. 
And I just said, how about it, 

536
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:05,640
man? 
I get it. 

537
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,120
I get it. 
I was so worried about my kids 

538
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,000
for so long. 
And I did. 

539
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,400
I had a friend of mine, the only
friend of mine that doesn't have

540
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,880
his own kids, ironically, one 
day said to me, where you what's

541
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,280
up today? 
I got, I'm going to court. 

542
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,920
He goes, how come? 
He goes, I'm I'm going to fight 

543
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,880
for my son. 
He goes, why I go, what do you 

544
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:28,320
mean why he's my son. 
He goes, doesn't it take two 

545
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,200
people to fight and and one of 
them stops? 

546
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,120
Doesn't the fight? 
Isn't that end the fight? 

547
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:36,840
Oh wow. 
And I'm like, holy shit, out of 

548
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,160
the mouths of single guys with 
no kids, you know, we'll talk 

549
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,560
about. 
Objectivity, right? 

550
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,640
You know right? 
No dog in that fight. 

551
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,880
Yeah. 
So it changed my, it changed my 

552
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,320
outlook, it changed my attitude.
And I have to say that it 

553
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:56,040
contributed to the expediting of
the the final trial. 

554
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,680
How much? 
Who knows that it would be? 

555
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,000
Speculation OK, hold on let's 
let's poke that for a second 

556
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,160
because like that OK, so we all 
have these light bulb moments. 

557
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,440
I love the light bulb moments is
one of the reasons I get so damn

558
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,160
excited about this show is 
because I get light bulb moments

559
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,440
all the time and and I kind of 
addicted to it. 

560
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,440
I love I love those those 
moments. 

561
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,320
I think you just said one, the 
idea of, OK, well, why are you 

562
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,560
fighting for your son? 
So basically that's a reframe in

563
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,400
my mind. 
What he's getting you to do is 

564
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,720
reframe what it is that you're 
doing. 

565
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,120
So, so and and that is a 
powerful tool. 

566
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:28,720
It's like what you just said 
about the pilot with the engine 

567
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,920
on fire, right? 
You take a pause, right? 

568
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,320
And what are you doing? 
You're reframing, you're 

569
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,760
reframing priorities. 
You're reframing what to do. 

570
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,120
He did that for you just by 
saying I'm going to go fight for

571
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,640
my son, which like Mark, that 
sounds noble to go and say I'm 

572
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,920
going to fight for my son. 
And perhaps that's part of the 

573
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,600
folly of it is it sounds like 
it's duty. 

574
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,480
It feels and feeds into that, 
that, that that primal 

575
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,080
masculinity that we do have. 
But I'm curious about what the 

576
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,800
reframe was. 
Because at the end of the day, 

577
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,760
you're going to court. 
You're going to what what, what 

578
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,960
did it become in your mind? 
Did it be, if you were to look 

579
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,960
back now and change the word 
from fight, would it be advocate

580
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,760
would be would it be what would 
the what would what was that 

581
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,920
reframe like? 
Yeah, well, you know, I 

582
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,480
continued. 
It's not like I stopped doing 

583
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:14,640
the right thing. 
It's not like. 

584
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,160
Exactly the process is the same 
I. 

585
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,840
Continued to try and model 
behavior, be consistent, be 

586
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,840
available, be present, all. 
I didn't stop any of that stuff,

587
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,560
but it was kind of like this is 
energizing her. 

588
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,640
This is my feeding, my fight, my
fighting back is giving her 

589
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,160
energy. 
It's not dissuading her. 

590
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,120
And you know, one would normally
think, you know, if I push back 

591
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,600
on somebody, it will dissuade 
them from doing whatever it is 

592
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,800
they're doing. 
Mostly that's true, but not in 

593
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,480
this case. 
And it was so I was so close to 

594
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,240
it that I couldn't see that, 
even though now saying it in 

595
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,880
hindsight, it sounds so obvious 
as all hindsight does, right? 

596
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,280
Sure. 
But I, I decided that his point 

597
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,680
was just that if you stop 
feeding her energy, then she'll 

598
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,280
have less energy to do whatever 
she wants to do to you. 

599
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,640
And that was just true. 
So that was the reframe. 

600
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,720
It was your you. 
You think that you're fighting, 

601
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,360
but all you're doing is feeding 
her negative energy. 

602
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,160
Yeah. 
Oh, I love that. 

603
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,920
OK, thank you very much for, 
again, I'm gonna go broad to 

604
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,000
like, thank you very much for 
taking these things that you've 

605
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,040
gone through. 
I'm I'm certain it's therapeutic

606
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,720
for yourself as well to get it 
out there. 

607
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,360
It was a lot of strife. 
Long time of a part of your 

608
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,280
life. 
It changed your entire business.

609
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,320
You know, like, like, again, not
to put words in or to, to, to 

610
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,480
get out there, but you are very 
transparent with your story. 

611
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,400
You know, this is one of those 
ones where you she came after 

612
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,400
you, your character, your 
business, all of that stuff and 

613
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,640
and and sent a whole bunch of 
things crashing down for you. 

614
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,720
But here you are on the other 
side of it, not only doing well,

615
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,760
but teaching people how to get 
through what they've gone 

616
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,040
through. 
Again, this is exactly what he 

617
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,120
changed. 
It is all about the idea that we

618
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,920
that we come to a place where we
can take something that we need 

619
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:01,320
and leave something that we 
know. 

620
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,240
And that is that is 
vulnerability. 

621
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,360
Let's go back to the directions 
for a second because I think 

622
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,840
it's an important point because 
there's a lot of guys out there 

623
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:09,600
who are afraid to ask for 
directions. 

624
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,320
I'm quoting for those who are 
listening right into the air 

625
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:12,680
quotes thing. 
There's a lot of guys who are 

626
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,720
afraid to talk about what it is 
that they're going through, 

627
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,800
right? 
But again, when somebody comes 

628
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,880
and asks you for directions, if 
you're in a good space, you're 

629
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,560
not, You know, you're in a 
decent mindset. 

630
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,560
It's a pleasure to do that. 
It's a pleasure to help people. 

631
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,480
And that's vulnerability. 
It's an exchange of 

632
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,440
vulnerability. 
But the person who's in need for

633
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,360
some reason is more apartment 
many times to continually just 

634
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,520
looking around, trying to figure
it out for themselves when the 

635
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,480
shortcut to where they want to 
get to is literally asking for 

636
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,640
those directions reciprocally. 
The person who does that, who 

637
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,880
gives the directions loves that.
Is that your entire life right 

638
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:51,840
now? 
Like have you based your 

639
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,920
basically your entire life 
around this right now? 

640
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,800
Yeah, you know, I remember. 
It makes me think of the first 

641
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,960
placement I made when I was 26 
years old. 

642
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,200
It was a guy and he was a single
dad with three young boys and he

643
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,920
was about to lose his his house 
because he'd been out of work 

644
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,200
for so long. 
And I found him a job and he 

645
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:14,960
said, Mark, you saved my life. 
And I thought, this is what God 

646
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,840
wants me to do. 
You know, I'm getting emotional 

647
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,280
just talking about. 
Yeah, pouring into others, man. 

648
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,320
Like it's a great thing. 
There's nothing like it. 

649
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,280
There's just nothing like it. 
So sorry about that, the 

650
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,960
emotional stint there. 
But yeah, no, it's, it's and 

651
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,520
then, you know, coming out the 
other side of this, you know, 

652
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,040
I'm like, for instance, I'm 
writing a book, it's called No 

653
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,120
One's Coming. 
And it talks about the feminist 

654
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:47,720
movement and the the rising of 
that in the 60s and 70s. 

655
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,600
And the notion that, you know, 
we had that conversation and 

656
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,800
everyone kind of said, well, 
that sounds like a good idea, 

657
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,880
having women have the same 
rights as men. 

658
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,480
But we never had the 
conversation with the men to 

659
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,960
say, this is what this is going 
to mean for you. 

660
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,760
And so the men were all left 
alone to figure that out on 

661
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,160
their own. 
And the first time some guy 

662
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,720
opened the door for a woman and 
she yelled at him, I don't need 

663
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,360
your help. 
I can do that myself. 

664
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,120
He's like, what the fuck is 
going on here? 

665
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,720
You know? 
And so I still don't think we've

666
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,760
had that conversation. 
So I'm having that conversation 

667
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,960
in the book and wrapping my 
story around it because I think 

668
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,960
it's relevant. 
I think it's I think it's 

669
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,840
important. 
And having two daughters and I 

670
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,960
have now been in a relationship 
with a woman for seven years. 

671
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,760
So I didn't, I didn't lose my 
appreciation for the, for the, 

672
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,240
the, the sweet female gender. 
But it's, you know, we didn't 

673
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,480
have that conversation. 
I think it part, I think it's 

674
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,320
part of the reason guys don't 
feel comfortable emoting. 

675
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,680
I think it's part of the reason 
guys don't ask for help. 

676
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,480
It's part of the reason guys are
like, I'm not sure what I'm 

677
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,080
supposed to say here, what I'm 
supposed to do, and I'm being 

678
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,400
judged. 
And I think it's feels, it feels

679
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,240
unfair. 
But I don't have any defense, I 

680
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,000
don't have any. 
I don't have any ammunition, I 

681
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,920
don't have any plan. 
And so I think that's confusing 

682
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,960
everyone personally. 
Absolutely. 

683
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,880
You know, it's fun. 
I've never had like I've I've 

684
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,360
seen tastes of what you're 
talking about. 

685
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,520
You know, you certainly see it 
in the media. 

686
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,040
And I think that that's a skewed
if, if that's where we're 

687
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,960
getting our cues from, it's, 
it's very skewed. 

688
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,639
I, I, I, I often wonder what I 
would do or say if I tried to 

689
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:26,199
open a door for a woman. 
And I got that response because 

690
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,440
at the end of the day, 
politeness and courtesy and 

691
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,840
citizenship, I like to think 
that I also, I wouldn't just 

692
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,400
open a door for a pretty girl 
that walked by. 

693
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,639
I would open a door for a dude 
that was walking by. 

694
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,360
I would open the door for 
somebody who was holding three 

695
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,159
pies in their arms. 
And, and, and it's just, it's 

696
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,679
courtesy and, and, and whatnot, 
you know, the idea of chivalry 

697
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:46,199
and the idea that that is 
changing. 

698
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:48,679
Really at the end of the day, we
need more words. 

699
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:51,080
Let's explore these things, like
you said, let's talk about these

700
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:52,199
things. 
And so the book you're writing, 

701
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,159
that's a, that's a really noble 
subject to talk about and to get

702
00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:59,080
discussions going. 
That's clearly what you are good

703
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,800
at. 
We can get into. 

704
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,720
I want to get into your coaching
practice. 

705
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:04,680
I want to get into the real 
framework that you help people 

706
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,760
with. 
And and and, and, but I want to 

707
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,840
talk about the podcast for a 
second because as a, as a fellow

708
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,280
podcaster, you know, you know, 
the joy that comes from it. 

709
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,280
Obviously we have different, we 
have a different vantage points 

710
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,880
in how we do it because I don't 
have a Co host the imperfect 

711
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,000
men's club. 
I listen to you and Jim and you 

712
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,320
go back and forth and, and, and 
the way that you guys interact 

713
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,680
with each other, clearly 
different perspectives on life. 

714
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,880
There's no question that you 2 
are, are not, you know, you're 

715
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,720
not just in the same agreement 
club with each other and just 

716
00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:38,320
enjoying agreeing with each 
other. 

717
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,720
You're very different guys. 
But at the same time, the 

718
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,280
mandate that you both have to 
improve other people's lives. 

719
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,480
You know, let's just do a real 
quick. 

720
00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:52,360
How did it come about and and 
what are some of the things that

721
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,320
you've learned hosting the 
Imperfect Men's Club? 

722
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,160
Yeah. 
So it's probably 5 or 6 years 

723
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,840
ago now, Jim. 
I was working in a in a 

724
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,920
different capacity. 
I've always had kind of multiple

725
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,000
streams of income. 
I've always been kind of that 

726
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,480
guy, but they're all related. 
It's helping other people in 

727
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,680
some capacity. 
And I was working with an 

728
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,280
organization that had a solution
to help people process 

729
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,440
subconscious trauma. 
And interestingly enough, in 

730
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,480
your world, kind of and. 
Was it a psychedelic? 

731
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,040
No, it wasn't a psychedelic. 
It was a, it was kind of a, it 

732
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,320
was an equivalent to what is out
there now called rapid 

733
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,920
resolution therapy. 
It's the acknowledgement that, 

734
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,040
yeah, the acknowledgement that 
95% of what we think, say and do

735
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,960
we're doing subconsciously. 
And so if we haven't harnessed 

736
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,320
whatever's going on in our 
subconscious, then it will 

737
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,760
continue to traumatize us. 
And your, your comment about the

738
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,080
big T, small T was a thing. 
So it doesn't matter whether 

739
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,160
it's a big T or a small T, it 
can still be a thorn in your 

740
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,840
side, whatever that might mean 
to you. 

741
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,480
So anyway, Long story short, Jim
calls in, he finds us and he 

742
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,840
calls in. 
And I answered the call cuz that

743
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,720
was my role. 
I was the, the front man cuz I 

744
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:08,480
had the ability to have 
conversations pretty well about 

745
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,560
this kind of stuff cuz I'd 
lived, I was playing with it my 

746
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,240
whole life in some capacity, 
whether it was staffing or 

747
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,640
fatherhood or divorce or 
whatever. 

748
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,640
Anyway, he called in and we just
started talking and I just 

749
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,840
started asking him a bunch of 
questions because that's how you

750
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,080
have a good conversation is you 
ask good questions. 

751
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,520
And he asked me one question 
that was very scientific or 

752
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,600
medical. 
And I said, you know, Jim, I 

753
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,320
don't know the answer to that, 
but I'll talk to the doctor and 

754
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,480
let me write the question down. 
I'll talk to the doctor. 

755
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,720
I'll come back to you with what 
he said and that in his mind 

756
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:44,000
he'll tell you that's the moment
he said, I really like this guy.

757
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:46,800
He's an honest man and I can 
trust him. 

758
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,160
And we just that opened up his 
he just kind of hugged me in 

759
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,360
from that moment on. 
And he stuck around an extra day

760
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,880
after he came to Orlando. 
He's from California for some 

761
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,080
some face to face treatment, if 
you will. 

762
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,280
That's that's not the right 
word, but it'll suffice. 

763
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,200
And. 
Then we went out to. 

764
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:06,520
Dinner. 
In person treatment. 

765
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,040
Yeah. 
And, and, and we went to dinner 

766
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:13,680
and we started finding out that 
we both were interested in, you 

767
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,200
know, this whole idea of, of 
what men go through. 

768
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,400
And he was in a position, and 
he'll tell you this of, of a 

769
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,920
little bit of desperation 
because he had been getting a 

770
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:26,720
little depression was creeping 
in. 

771
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,280
And it was attributed to the 
fact that he was a professional 

772
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,040
rugby player and had probably 30
or 40 concussions during his 

773
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,480
lifetime. 
And it was the whole NFL 

774
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:42,440
football, you know, issue and he
was scared and he wasn't willing

775
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,600
to admit any of that at that 
moment. 

776
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,760
And the other thing that's come 
over the years. 

777
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,440
And then we, we just started the
podcast. 

778
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,960
My daughter, my eldest daughter 
was in that business. 

779
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,040
So she helped us get it off the 
ground with some graphics and 

780
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,480
music and editing. 
We put 5 episodes in the can, 

781
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,680
didn't really know what we were 
doing and then my daughter got 

782
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,640
busy and said that I can't help 
you anymore. 

783
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,080
I got these clients over here 
that are paying me lots of money

784
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,360
and I got to go. 
I said that's fine honey, go and

785
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,960
we were stuck. 
And so we stopped for a SEC and 

786
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,240
then I kept thinking to myself, 
what if we just didn't edit 

787
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:19,240
anything? 
What if we didn't use music? 

788
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:22,000
What if we took away all the 
work that we can't do? 

789
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,720
Would it still be interesting 
and effective? 

790
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,320
And we discovered that it likely
would matter of fact, the 

791
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,080
rawness of it, the authenticity 
of it might be its best asset. 

792
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,720
And so I would, I would defer to
your opinion on that as a 

793
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:39,000
listener. 
But I think we're getting 

794
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,920
better. 
I think we're having more fun. 

795
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,200
And Jim has come out of Jim has 
come out of his shell. 

796
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,720
He did not want to talk about 
women. 

797
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:49,240
He did not want to talk about 
neurodiversity. 

798
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:54,040
He's, he is dyslexic and 
dysgraphic and his whole 

799
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,520
childhood wrapped around the, 
the, the idea that people 

800
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,720
thought he was stupid and he was
made fun of. 

801
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,960
So he started fighting and he 
got into football and rugby to, 

802
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,280
to channel that aggression. 
And now when he steps up on a 

803
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,240
stage, he leads with his story 
of neurodiversity. 

804
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:11,040
So it's really cool, you know, 
it's really. 

805
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,280
Cool. 
I love that you just told me 

806
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,600
that last part because if you 
listen to any of the, you know, 

807
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:23,080
most recent episodes, and I've 
listened to a bunch that that is

808
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,480
shocking. 
That is absolutely shocking 

809
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,120
because it is, he wears it like,
but it's again, one of those 

810
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,120
things when we're unfamiliar 
with something, you know, and it

811
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,480
could be anything like like the 
situation that guys are in right

812
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,760
now, for example, if they're in 
a, in a hard relationship or a 

813
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,920
hard situation, when you're 
unfamiliar with it, you want to 

814
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,240
kind of, you know, hug it in 
and, and, and, and get personal 

815
00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:44,520
about it and maybe even 
procrastinate or, or or 

816
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,320
whatever. 
But the moment you start delving

817
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,600
into these things, well, then it
goes the exact reciprocal. 

818
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,720
You start flipping around and 
going, no, no, no, hold on, 

819
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:53,360
let's talk about this. 
Let's get up. 

820
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,560
Because again, once you start, 
you know, once you start kicking

821
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,120
up the dirt, let's see what's 
under the surface. 

822
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,640
And, and that's clearly what he 
has done, knowing that that's 

823
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,240
where he came from. 
That is very, very interesting. 

824
00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:06,560
I'd love to have him as a guest 
on, on on Ecast as well. 

825
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,280
Because again, having you as Co 
hosts, it would become very 

826
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,880
evident very quickly for people 
who have listened to both yours 

827
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,160
and his episode, how different 
you 2 are. 

828
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,360
But at the same time, the 
similarities that we have, you 

829
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,760
know, the, the talking about the
differences that we have is the 

830
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,640
one thing that gives us these 
different perspectives. 

831
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,280
Just like the single guy who was
able to give you a tremendous 

832
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,360
light bulb moment with your, 
with your son. 

833
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,800
So the imperfect men's club, you
guys are doing it for the 

834
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,880
further mint of, of, of of, you 
know, you're scratching itches 

835
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,560
At the same time, things that 
are inside. 

836
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,880
You get through 5 episodes and, 
and, and, and the infrastructure

837
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,960
goes away and suddenly you're 
like, well, no, we like this. 

838
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,960
We're going to hold on to it. 
We're going to re face. 

839
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,440
You asked my opinion on things. 
I'm a big fan of long form. 

840
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,240
You know, like a lot of people 
who've listened to the show know

841
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:54,880
that I'm a, I'm a huge David 
Letterman guy. 

842
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,200
I'm the host of the Letterman 
podcast. 

843
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,000
That's the other that's my other
show that I have. 

844
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:03,040
And one of the things I love 
about Dave is that when he had 

845
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,920
his, the original late night 
talk show, he would go on 8-9 

846
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,800
minutes with people. 
But who influenced him? 

847
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,320
Guys like Tom Snyder? 
Tom Snyder was what did they 

848
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:13,560
have? 
They had a black background. 

849
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,560
Charlie Rose, what do they have?
Black background? 

850
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,880
You know, 3 camera angles 
basically, you know, the long 

851
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,360
shot and then the two personal 
shots and it was just a long 

852
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,320
form conversation. 
Why is the number one 

853
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,720
broadcasting platform on the 
planet or broadcaster, I should 

854
00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:31,680
say, Joe Rogan, right? 
How long are his episodes? 

855
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,440
Three, 3 1/2 hours. 
They're, I think there's a 

856
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,400
hunger out there. 
They're obviously there's a 

857
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,600
hunger on the other side. 
You look at where TikTok is and 

858
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,240
instant, quick, quick, quick, 
quick, quick, the algorithm. 

859
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,240
But to me that algorithm is, is,
is hypnotizing us when it's us 

860
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:48,120
being us. 
I believe long form is the way 

861
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,560
to go. 
And the conversations that you 2

862
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,120
have are, are are, are 
beautiful. 

863
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,160
They're dynamic. 
The back and forth is really, 

864
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,280
really lovely. 
The perspective difference is 

865
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:02,720
awesome, but they're all chocked
full of, of, of information. 

866
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:05,080
I, I want to give an example 
here because really at the end 

867
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,120
of the day, you base your 
podcast around 5 things and, 

868
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,800
and, and you go through those 
five things seemingly at 

869
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,080
different times, at different 
topics. 

870
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,560
But could you go through the 
five things really quick and, 

871
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:17,960
and talk about those, talk about
that? 

872
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:19,640
Because there's a lot of guys 
who, when they hear this, 

873
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:20,840
there's going to be light bulb 
moments. 

874
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:22,560
You even just explaining the 
five things. 

875
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,560
Yeah. 
So it's the idea that life is is

876
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,840
easily carved up into five areas
and and we particularly men, 

877
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,880
have a tendency to focus all our
energy in one at a time to the 

878
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,120
neglect of the other four. 
And what we've discovered, we've

879
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,240
all discovered this. 
I suppose we just need to be 

880
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:45,680
reminded of it now and then is 
if you're all in on your career,

881
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,600
then your relationship's going 
to suffer, your health's 

882
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,480
probably going to suffer your, 
your money situation might be 

883
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,280
OK, but it's just money, right? 
So your, your, your view of 

884
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,560
these things. 
And, and you know, one of the 

885
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,400
things I do in the morning in 
my, in my journaling exercise is

886
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,040
I put these five things down on 
a piece of paper and say, just 

887
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,920
give some love to each of the 
five today and don't neglect any

888
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,320
of them. 
Because if you make the mistake 

889
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,880
of going all in on the one, the 
other four will suffer every 

890
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:13,880
time. 
And that's just for all of us. 

891
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:20,960
And it's, it's money, worldview,
health, mental and physical 

892
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:26,240
career or your, or your life's 
work and your relationships with

893
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:29,520
other people. 
And so, and, and what we do is 

894
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,480
I, I used to do it. 
We don't use our video. 

895
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,960
It's just an audio podcast, but 
I used to put on my hand and 

896
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,400
say, there's the five right 
there. 

897
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,400
And right in the middle here is 
yourself is your ego. 

898
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,280
And everything is driven from 
here. 

899
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,080
And then Jim started developing 
this list. 

900
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,560
I think it's over 40 now. 
Self reflection, self, 

901
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,920
self-awareness, I suppose, is 
first, which leads to self 

902
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,720
reflection. 
And then it's, you know, 

903
00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:55,880
self-discipline, self 
accountability. 

904
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,000
It, it's he has a whole list of 
self hyphen words and they 

905
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,560
typically become the topics of, 
of episodes. 

906
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,360
And then we, we kind of tell 
stories around all 5 areas of 

907
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,320
our lives and how they're 
impacted. 

908
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,640
So that's, that's it in a 
nutshell. 

909
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:14,720
You know, I think the most 
important thing is that we, we 

910
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:18,720
all men and women, humans have a
tendency to go all in and lose 

911
00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:21,400
sight of the other things. 
We'll neglect our relationships,

912
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:25,160
or we'll neglect our sleep, or 
we'll neglect our health, or we 

913
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,080
just want to get food in our 
belly so we'll eat shit instead 

914
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,400
of good food. 
And it's just like you, you just

915
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,440
keep taking these moves, 
neglecting 3 or 4 of the five 

916
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,880
areas. 
And before you know it, you 

917
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,120
know, you're 40 lbs overweight 
or you're got some chronic 

918
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,360
disease or your wife's leaving 
you, or, you know, it's just, 

919
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,360
it's just the same for all of 
us. 

920
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:50,720
And, and the balance approach is
I think where it's at. 

921
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:54,080
I think that's one of the 
secrets to life is balance, 

922
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,560
right? 
Not too much of anything, but 

923
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,680
not too little of anything 
either, if that makes sense. 

924
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,880
Oh, God, are you kidding me? 
It makes such perfect clarity. 

925
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:04,960
It's so clear. 
Let's one of the things I love 

926
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,760
about you guys, you're able to 
you talk about deep subjects, 

927
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,400
but you're able to really 
simplify them and make them, you

928
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:13,600
know, make them very, very 
clear. 

929
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,400
You like, I'm listening to you 
right now and I know I'll tell 

930
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:17,800
you this. 
There's a lot of guys out there 

931
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:19,160
who have heard, oh, you should 
journal. 

932
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:20,920
You should journal and people 
should all over them. 

933
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,320
And they say, OK, yeah, you 
should journal. 

934
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,080
At the end of the day, the times
of my life is going the best are

935
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,000
the times that I'm journaling. 
And I've got a good, I've got a 

936
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,440
good, you know, relationship 
with journaling Guys don't know 

937
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,320
what to do, you know, you know, 
and there's different ways to do

938
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,920
it. 
OK, If every morning you took 15

939
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,040
minutes and you wrote down the 
word career, what can I do for 

940
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:40,800
my career today? 
I'm going to call these clients.

941
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:42,080
I'm going to get this paperwork 
done. 

942
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,400
I'm going to I'm going to have 
the best attitude when I walk 

943
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,080
into work today, no matter what,
if I'm dealing with that person,

944
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:53,440
OK, great worldview. 
I am not going to be I am not 

945
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,320
going to be affected by the 
polarization today. 

946
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,560
Whenever I see polarization, I'm
going to laugh, you know, 

947
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:00,920
relationships. 
I'm going to make sure I text 

948
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,040
all of my kids today. 
I'm going to make sure that I 

949
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,160
asked my wife without my phone 
in here. 

950
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,720
I'm going to do this. 
OK, health, you know, I'm 

951
00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:12,160
journaling right now and I'm 
going to go for a run later. 

952
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:15,320
Great. 
And, and, and money, you know, 

953
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,640
I'm going to pay that bill off 
today because it's going to feel

954
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:20,720
good to do it even though it's 
two weeks early. 

955
00:47:20,720 --> 00:47:23,680
You know, if somebody did that 
every day, if somebody did that 

956
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:28,160
every single day, imagine what 
the cumulative effect would be 

957
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,320
after three days, five days a 
week, a month. 

958
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,560
Do that for a month and see 
where your life is going to be 

959
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:38,040
at that point. 
What a powerful, powerful intro 

960
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,120
to the world of journaling. 
You don't need to go. 

961
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,040
And so many times we complicate 
things so much. 

962
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:46,480
What a clear way of showing 
somebody how to put some 

963
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,280
direction back in their life. 
That's a well you. 

964
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,200
Know you would ask me about my 
framework, the real framework 

965
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,640
and generally is definitely I 
mean I have all these tools that

966
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,560
you know when I say tools I've 
I've borrowed them or stolen 

967
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,400
them or repurposed them. 
You know I joke with people all 

968
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,280
the time in the career space. 
Plagiarism ends when you get out

969
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,480
of school, OK, the rest of your 
life you're you're plagiarizing 

970
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:10,920
everything for the rest of your 
life. 

971
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,440
There's nothing there's no 
reason to make anything new up 

972
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,080
you just relearn things. 
One of my favorite phrases is we

973
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:21,040
have to be reminded way more 
often than we need to be taught 

974
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,440
new things. 
It's mostly reminding people. 

975
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:28,800
And so all of the tools that I 
use are all of them are either 

976
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,440
free or cheap. 
They don't require much time. 

977
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,600
So they're easily consumable on 
a consistent basis over a long 

978
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,800
period of time, which is how you
gain any worthwhile traction in 

979
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,160
anything. 
Little tiny bits, little tiny 

980
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,840
steps over long periods of time.
I enjoy them, which is a, you 

981
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,800
know, like if I didn't like to 
ride a bike, then I would walk. 

982
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:51,520
If I didn't like to walk, I 
would swim. 

983
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:56,120
Find something you look forward 
to that you can do in a short 

984
00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:00,160
period of time that is, that is 
impactful. 

985
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:01,960
And then just kind of bunch them
up. 

986
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,800
Like my journaling practice is 
part of I, I precede that with 

987
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,280
prayer and I precede that with 
breath work. 

988
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,840
And then after it's all over, I 
throw some exercise and I'll go 

989
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,320
for a walk or I'll go out in the
yard and, and just hack stuff up

990
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,760
for an hour and sweat, you know,
So, you know, and I made a job. 

991
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,120
I was an athlete my whole life. 
I was in the weight room most of

992
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:22,840
my young life, but I don't do 
that anymore. 

993
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,960
I can't, I can't jog anymore. 
My body won't let me, but I 

994
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,560
walk, you know, and I have a 
bike and I like to swim in the 

995
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,480
ocean and, you know, get out in 
the sun for 5 minutes in the 

996
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,160
morning. 
Everybody knows this stuff, you 

997
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,200
know, I just think that maybe 
what I do is I make it more 

998
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,360
accessible. 
I make it easier to understand. 

999
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,600
And I don't, you know, I tell 
people in the marketing side of 

1000
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,480
what I do. 
If you're looking for a quick 

1001
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,760
fix, that's not how this works, 
you know, So you, you, you don't

1002
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,760
go to the gym and do 900 sit ups
and get a six pack. 

1003
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:00,640
You go to the gym everyday for 
about 90 days and you do 5 and 

1004
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,920
the first day and then you work 
your way up to 10/15/20, 

1005
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,920
whatever. 
And don't look in the mirror for

1006
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,120
three months. 
You'll just discourage yourself,

1007
00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:11,760
you know, So it's just a 
perspective, you know, and, and 

1008
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,760
it's so those things are all 
part of what I deliver to my 

1009
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,280
clients because those are the 
things that you can take with 

1010
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,360
you. 
When we're done, right, that 

1011
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,920
will sustain everything, right? 
Because most of most of us fail 

1012
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,880
in our New Year's resolutions 
because of the sustainability 

1013
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,960
challenge. 
And it's usually because we take

1014
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,840
on too many things that are too 
hard or too expensive and we 

1015
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,200
give up on them too early. 
So make them simpler, make them 

1016
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,360
easier, make them free, you 
know, and and and recognize that

1017
00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:46,160
we're not taking a look at the 
progress we're making for a few 

1018
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,080
months, right. 
And so, you know, that's kind of

1019
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:51,680
it's it's nice that we segwayed 
into that, because I think 

1020
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,080
that's part of the reason what I
do is so effective. 

1021
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:55,960
It's simple. 
Well, and that's, that's where I

1022
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,160
want to go because I mean, at 
the end of the day, you know, 

1023
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,160
the podcast and if we, if we do 
ever have Jim on here, we can 

1024
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,520
talk about what he does. 
But but the idea of you 2 taking

1025
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,080
what it is that you your 
viewpoints of the world, but 

1026
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,120
also what you do and kind of 
taking those things and 

1027
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,160
amalgamating them into one show 
and then being able to mix it up

1028
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,680
and and, and and and give for 
the benefit of of, you know, 

1029
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,880
yourselves, but others, you 
know, it's it's it's like you're

1030
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,000
taking these very productive 
conversations that you would be 

1031
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,760
having anyway with somebody you 
have synergy with and you're 

1032
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:24,120
using it to benefit everybody 
else. 

1033
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:25,800
That's what it feels like. 
That's the raw part. 

1034
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,560
I love that. 
Yeah, but then let's go to you 

1035
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,160
know, and, and, and we can find 
you on Mark L word L word.com, 

1036
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:33,960
right? 
And, and, and, and your 

1037
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,440
practice. 
I want to go into the real, you 

1038
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,400
know, and, and for anybody who 
wants to go in there and get an 

1039
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,160
assessment, I love that there's,
there's, you know, you're 

1040
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,560
willing to do that. 
But, but the idea of when you go

1041
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,800
down the site and you see how 
many times you talk about, you 

1042
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,240
know, the real framework, REAL, 
it's an acronym. 

1043
00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:51,760
Can you talk about real and what
it means? 

1044
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,920
Yeah. 
And just to remind me, I want to

1045
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,520
get Jim whatever link he needs 
to get in touch with you guys so

1046
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,160
you can invite. 
Him, we'll get Joel. 

1047
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:01,760
Oh yeah, just to send Joel the 
e-mail. 

1048
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,200
Joel's a master at that. 
We'll, we'll, we'll get in touch

1049
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,040
for sure. 
He'd love, he'd love to come on 

1050
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,000
and talk to you. 
Yeah, I, I recognize actually, 

1051
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,480
Jim helped me with this. 
The, the idea of frameworks. 

1052
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,200
I think the way that his mind 
works, which is fascinating. 

1053
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,880
I mean, I love his 
neurodivergence is, is so much a

1054
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:19,400
part of the fun of our 
conversation. 

1055
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,000
And we tease each other. 
And if there's big words that 

1056
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,120
need to be pronounced, I'm the 
one who pronounces them. 

1057
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,800
If, if writing needs to happen, 
I I'm the one who writes. 

1058
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:33,200
He thinks differently, like it's
cool, but he he loves frameworks

1059
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:38,200
because it allows his brain to 
organize things in a way that he

1060
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,120
needs in order to access his 
intellect. 

1061
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:46,160
And he's a very bright guy. 
So that was I resisted 

1062
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,080
frameworks because I've always 
resisted structure. 

1063
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,200
I've always been more of a shoot
from the hip kind of guy. 

1064
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,360
Like when you said we're not 
going to have any structure to 

1065
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,080
the show. 
I'm like, that's a blessing to 

1066
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:00,320
me because scripting me is, is, 
is the way to make me completely

1067
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,600
uninteresting. 
And so I, the idea of I just 

1068
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,040
kept listening to this good 
friend of mine talk about 

1069
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,400
frameworks and he kept bringing 
them up in conversations. 

1070
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,520
And I'm like, I think I might 
have to do that because I think 

1071
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,440
maybe less for me, but in order 
for the outside world to say, 

1072
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,920
oh, I can see now what Mark does
and how he does it because it's 

1073
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,400
in a framework, right? 
So that was the impetus behind 

1074
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,440
the notion of developing A 
framework. 

1075
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:27,960
And then I said, well, back to 
my recruiting days. 

1076
00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:30,800
How do I begin a conversation 
with a prospect? 

1077
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,280
How do I get this prospect? 
And I start asking and 

1078
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,000
questions, Well, what is that? 
What's another word for that? 

1079
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,480
Well, that's reflection. 
We're reflecting on on life. 

1080
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,280
What's important to you? 
What do you like? 

1081
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:42,520
Why are you doing what you're 
doing? 

1082
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,240
What do you want to do? 
What would you rather do? 

1083
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,360
Why would you rather do it? 
It's a really, it's like, you 

1084
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,560
know what it is? 
It's how you prompt AI. 

1085
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,720
And so when I got into AI, I'm 
like, I'm just being a recruiter

1086
00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:54,360
here. 
I'm just probing with with 

1087
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:56,600
prompts, with questions. 
Why do you say that? 

1088
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:58,280
Say that again, What do you mean
by that? 

1089
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,520
Right. 
Getting people to really open 

1090
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,240
up. 
So reflection is, I think it's 

1091
00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:07,800
how you start any move into a 
better direction because 

1092
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:13,120
reflecting on things, being self
aware and then rolling into the 

1093
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,600
idea that I'm, I am personally 
accountable for all this. 

1094
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,600
I'm in control of this stuff. 
This is my stuff. 

1095
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,760
It's it's internal. 
It's not external circumstance. 

1096
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,560
It's not other people. 
This is go inside and see what's

1097
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,040
in there. 
You might not like everything, 

1098
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,520
and that's OK. 
You don't have to fix 

1099
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,160
everything. 
You just have the first thing 

1100
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:36,120
you have to do is know what's 
going on. 

1101
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:37,640
Right. 
Can I say something about that, 

1102
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:38,560
though? 
Yeah, Yeah. 

1103
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,080
We live in a society again. 
What is the number one social 

1104
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:42,920
media platform out there now? 
It's TikTok. 

1105
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:47,160
And I mean, to me, these things 
are the they, they distract us 

1106
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,240
from doing exactly what you do. 
I think there's a lot of guys 

1107
00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:50,880
who don't know who they are 
because. 

1108
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,600
And never mind have been taught 
how to do this. 

1109
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:55,840
But we live in a society right 
now that doesn't encourage 

1110
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,200
reflection, does it? 
No, 100%. 

1111
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,960
And it's all the more reason 
that it's so important. 

1112
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:07,680
And I give part of what I do for
sure, it's always been the case 

1113
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,680
is give people permission, like 
in the career space, permission 

1114
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,360
to dream bigger, right? 
Just because you're a project 

1115
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,040
manager in the healthcare space 
doesn't mean the next job has to

1116
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:18,920
be project management in the 
healthcare space. 

1117
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,920
Because I'll tell you from 
experience, 80 to 90% of your 

1118
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:23,920
skills are transferable to any 
job. 

1119
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,000
So knock that shit off right 
away. 

1120
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,440
That cracks open people's 
craniums that sometimes that's 

1121
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,760
all I have to do. 
Holy shit, Mark, thank you so 

1122
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,360
much. 
I never like I was. 

1123
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,040
I became a doctor because my dad
wanted me to become a doctor. 

1124
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,240
Like, that was 40 years ago, 
right? 

1125
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,520
So there's so many other good 
things you could do for humanity

1126
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,800
as an experienced Dr. that don't
require you to be a doctor in 

1127
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:47,200
performance. 
So anyway. 

1128
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,440
Can we go back to, you're not 
alone like again, going back to 

1129
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,360
the, the, the journaling, those 
five things, how easy it is with

1130
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,360
your techniques, with people are
not techniques, but the things 

1131
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:58,680
that you offer them free, free 
stuff, right? 

1132
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,880
But you're bringing the idea 
that you jumped in the rowboat 

1133
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:03,560
with them. 
They're not alone. 

1134
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,480
And that part, the permission 
part is basically just to say, 

1135
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,160
no, no, no, it's OK. 
You're going in the right 

1136
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,080
direction in doing this 
journaling, you're doing the 

1137
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:15,320
you're, you know, showing that 
that reassurance, it goes back 

1138
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:16,760
to how we started this whole 
damn thing. 

1139
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,360
You're not alone. 
And so so anyway, yeah, that's a

1140
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,360
tangent, but let's, what's the 
E? 

1141
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,320
So our reflection what's the E? 
Yeah. 

1142
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,080
Well, once you've done some 
significant reflection and 

1143
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,560
you've gotten all this stuff 
down on paper or whatever you 

1144
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,320
write with doesn't matter, now 
it's time to evaluate. 

1145
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,880
Now it's time to evaluate, OK, 
what are we looking at here? 

1146
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,840
And, and what let's just kind of
knock back and forth in a 

1147
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,200
similar way that we reflected, 
but let's just shift to 

1148
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,880
evaluation. 
And that's, that begins the 

1149
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,080
ranking process. 
Perhaps maybe like what's in 

1150
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,760
ranking of importance, ranking 
of impact, ranking of legacy, 

1151
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,800
ranking it what, whatever it is 
that you want out of the rest of

1152
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,440
your life. 
Let's start to evaluate all of 

1153
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:04,560
this self reflection work and 
then that leads into action or 

1154
00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:06,640
activate. 
So now it's go. 

1155
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,760
Now I have to make choices 
because there's only so much 

1156
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,760
time in a day. 
So all of these continue the 

1157
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,880
process of evaluation. 
All of them continue the process

1158
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:19,600
of reflection and activation. 
But now it's done with all of 

1159
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,760
this context, right? 
And probably the most important 

1160
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:28,920
thing, Mike, in my observation 
out of those first three are 

1161
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:35,120
this idea that, you know, your 
values are now going to start to

1162
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:37,560
align with your actions and your
words. 

1163
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,520
And most of us aren't aligned, 
myself included, all the time. 

1164
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,760
My words sometimes are 
inconsistent with my actions. 

1165
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,560
My actions are inconsistent with
my values because just as a, for

1166
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:51,640
instance, well, let's just say 
one of your values is integrity,

1167
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:53,960
right? 
You ever lied to anybody? 

1168
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,200
OK, well, you're out of 
alignment there, aren't you? 

1169
00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:00,640
You know, so it's, it's not a, 
it's something that you're never

1170
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,320
done with. 
But once you get in the habit of

1171
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,760
doing those three things, then 
you have something that you can 

1172
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:08,760
go back to. 
It's like my dad told me about 

1173
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,040
religion when I questioned him 
when I was 17. 

1174
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:13,520
He said, no, you question your 
faith, Mark, you question 

1175
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:15,160
everything. 
That's how your faith gets 

1176
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:19,160
stronger, right? 
And so that's the activation. 

1177
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:23,320
And the activation produces a, A
to do list, if you will, a, a, a

1178
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:25,240
priority. 
There's, there's bigger, longer 

1179
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,040
term things, there's midterm 
things and then there's things 

1180
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:31,440
you can do today, right? 
And their combination one leads 

1181
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,480
to the leads to the next. 
Speaking of leadership, that's 

1182
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,320
the L and to lead and and I 
think that. 

1183
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,520
Like you've done this before. 
It's like, it's like you've 

1184
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:43,400
explained it once or twice that.
Just that's just rolled out of 

1185
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,320
my mouth. 
I'll take no credit for that at 

1186
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:50,800
all, but leadership's been a 
whole part of my life. 

1187
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:52,520
I mean, I was the captain of my 
Little League team. 

1188
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:54,200
I was the captain of all my 
sports teams. 

1189
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,080
I was the owner of the company. 
I was the dad. 

1190
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:58,320
And my dad was a leader, is a 
leader. 

1191
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,440
He's 97 and he's still driving 
his own car and not taking any 

1192
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:02,360
medication. 
Yeah. 

1193
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:06,040
So quite a an exceptional 
example. 

1194
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:09,120
But leadership from the 
perspective of the first thing 

1195
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:12,640
you need to do is lead yourself.
And so we're going to reach back

1196
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:14,880
into our reflection. 
We're going to reach back into 

1197
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,360
our evaluation and we're going 
to reach back into our 

1198
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,280
activation and say, what are 
these things? 

1199
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:25,360
Which of these things would be 
consistent with me leading 

1200
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:29,080
myself, you know, modeling 
behavior, looking for 

1201
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:31,120
consistencies. 
I used to tell my kids when they

1202
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:33,800
were confused in the middle of 
the shit you can. 

1203
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,640
The truth lies where actions and
words are the same. 

1204
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:38,360
That's where you'll find 
integrity. 

1205
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,080
So whether you're judging me or 
your mom or your teacher or your

1206
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,120
coach, are they are the words 
coming out of their mouth 

1207
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:46,240
consistent with the actions that
they're taking. 

1208
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:48,920
That's where integrity lies most
of the time. 

1209
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,800
It's not 100%, but it's it's 
really good simple formula. 

1210
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:54,720
And then? 
The idea of leading yourself. 

1211
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,200
Now hold on, I gotta, I gotta 
poke that. 

1212
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:58,440
For a second. 
Because like again, we got guys 

1213
00:59:58,440 --> 00:59:59,720
who are listening to this right 
now. 

1214
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:02,680
And you think about the, you 
know, some people would call it 

1215
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,480
the fragile male ego, whatever 
you want to call it. 

1216
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:09,640
I think that masculinity many 
times has a tie to leadership. 

1217
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:13,320
And, and, and there are guys who
are aching to be a leader and 

1218
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,360
they have been handcuffed. 
They're not in a place where 

1219
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:18,520
they're able to lead. 
They're not a leader in their 

1220
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:20,880
household, but because it might 
be because of what's going on 

1221
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,000
out there. 
And like you say, the merging 

1222
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:27,160
of, of, of, of what the male 
identity is with something else 

1223
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:28,560
and, and the questioning of 
that. 

1224
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:31,960
And so you got people who are 
confuse and confuse people many 

1225
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:35,120
times will be like stagnant 
water and stagnant water usually

1226
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,560
isn't good for anything except 
for breeding bad things. 

1227
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,560
So, so you know, and and so you 
think about leadership. 

1228
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,240
If we're a guy that has 
leadership inside of us, that is

1229
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,360
stagnant, that has been quelled,
that has been pushed down, 

1230
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:52,640
identity has been pushed away, 
you just hit a hard, hard 

1231
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,880
triple, if not a home run for 
guys who are in that place. 

1232
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,440
You start by leading yourself. 
And, and, and really, if you're 

1233
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,800
doing these evaluations, if 
you're reflecting, if you're 

1234
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,200
evaluating, if you're starting 
to act, you're moving the 

1235
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:06,440
opposite of stagnant, right? 
You're starting to act on things

1236
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,360
and you realize leadership. 
Oh, wait a second, It's a 

1237
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,200
superpower. 
I don't have to be the leader of

1238
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:13,840
my wife. 
I don't have to be the leader of

1239
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:17,200
my kids or the people at work or
the person who cut me off in 

1240
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:21,160
traffic or, or whoever it is. 
If I'm leading myself, the 

1241
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:25,480
fulfilment shows up there and 
then that starts to be like, you

1242
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,440
know, the rock being thrown into
the water and the ripples 

1243
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,120
showing up from that. 
Leading yourself, guys who are 

1244
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:32,480
out there who are listening to 
this, start by leading yourself.

1245
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:36,720
Don't worry about the fact that 
if you can respect yourself and 

1246
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,120
you can lead yourself in the 
direction you want to go, guess 

1247
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,640
what good things are going to 
happen that you, you, you hit a 

1248
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,240
home run with that one mark like
like I think there's so many 

1249
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:46,200
guys that need to hear that. 
Yeah, good. 

1250
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,320
Yeah, I mean, it's, again, it's 
giving guys permission, right? 

1251
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,080
To some extent it's giving them 
permission that you you can you 

1252
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,760
can lead yourself. 
And I, I think the, you know, 

1253
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,040
people talk to me about 
leadership all the time. 

1254
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:58,000
I have A and I don't think it's 
cynical. 

1255
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,760
I think it's realistic is my 
attitude because I've dealt with

1256
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:05,680
so many quote UN quote leaders, 
I find that most people are not 

1257
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:07,280
leading. 
They're in positions of 

1258
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:10,160
authority, but they're not 
leaders and and. 

1259
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:12,080
I think look at, look at my 
position. 

1260
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:16,880
I got a title and I got an 
office, but and you know, it's 

1261
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:19,840
like in I was a baseball guy. 
So in baseball, you look at all 

1262
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:22,640
the managers, most of the 
managers were not good players. 

1263
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:26,280
Most of the managers were either
not players at all or they were 

1264
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:28,520
average players. 
You know, the Tommy Lasortas, 

1265
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:30,920
the Joe Torres, those kinds of 
guys. 

1266
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:33,880
And that doesn't mean you can't 
be a good player and a good 

1267
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:37,840
coach, but it's very interesting
observation because I think that

1268
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:42,600
the key to being a good leader 
for me, my definition of a great

1269
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:46,120
leader is someone who 
authentically cares about the 

1270
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:50,880
well-being of everyone he leads.
And I think that if you do that,

1271
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:56,360
if you honestly care, like 
really authentically care, then 

1272
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,640
all of the other things that 
people talk about, listening 

1273
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:03,160
skills, empathy, not necessarily
having to be the smartest guy in

1274
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:06,640
the room, those will all just 
start to roll off your tongue 

1275
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,200
because the foundation is caring
about the people that you lead. 

1276
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:14,840
Without that, I don't think you 
can lead, but a lot of people 

1277
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:17,720
you can. 
You can get a lot done screaming

1278
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,000
at people, but it's not 
sustainable, right? 

1279
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:22,920
My, I, I had a boss that I 
worked for for a while and he 

1280
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,840
was a yeller and a a screamer 
and a motivator in that 

1281
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,200
direction. 
But his business model was I'm 

1282
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,400
going to start companies, I'm 
going to build them for two 

1283
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:34,480
years and then I'm going to sell
them because in, in the third or

1284
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,200
fourth year, I'm going to start 
losing the good people because 

1285
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:39,120
they're not going to tolerate 
this for much longer. 

1286
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:44,320
So in that regard, that was a 
rather intelligent understanding

1287
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:48,400
of 1's limitations, right? 
But you know, my choices are 

1288
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:52,040
always going to be open door. 
Don't just bring me problems, 

1289
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,320
bring me problems with suggested
solutions and whether we use 

1290
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:58,640
them or not, you'll be thinking 
you'll you'll develop critical 

1291
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:02,280
skills, critical thinking 
skills, you'll develop a 

1292
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:05,160
solutioning attitude. 
And I tell everybody that I 

1293
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,880
talked to, if you're, if you're 
worried about your job, what 

1294
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,440
doesn't matter whether it's AI 
or job security, which there's 

1295
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:15,680
no such thing as just figure out
how to solve really critical 

1296
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:17,320
problems and you'll always have 
work. 

1297
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:22,160
That's it, you know. 
It's so it's so simple. 

1298
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:23,760
I'm not saying it's easy by the 
way. 

1299
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:26,680
You know, simple and easy or not
necessarily synonymous with each

1300
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:27,000
other. 
They're. 

1301
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:28,480
Definitely not the same thing, 
yeah. 

1302
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:32,760
Right, right. 
But simple is manageable and you

1303
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:34,840
can move in that direction and 
and I can't. 

1304
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:38,960
God, I knew that time was going 
to go fast with this one today. 

1305
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:42,400
I just knew it, like man, I knew
it. 

1306
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,600
But at the end of the day, OK, 
so First off, please come back 

1307
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:48,640
cuz I think, and you feel too, 
we're just scratching the 

1308
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:52,600
surface on things, but there's 
been so much good stuff For the 

1309
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:54,400
people who are hearing this 
right now, what are you focused 

1310
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:55,800
on? 
Are you focused on the problem 

1311
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:57,680
or are you focused on the 
solution? 

1312
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:00,560
You know, and, and, and it's so 
easy to get caught up in the 

1313
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,320
problem and then let the, you 
know, let the echo Chamber of 

1314
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,600
the problem begin and then that 
sends you down a bad path. 

1315
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:07,720
But wait a second. 
What if you gonna took that 

1316
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:09,600
pause that Mark is talking 
about? 

1317
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:11,640
What if you took that pause and 
said, OK, well, what might be a 

1318
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,440
a potential solution? 
What might be another potential 

1319
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:15,880
solution? 
Holy cow, I just thought of 

1320
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:17,080
three things that could be 
solutions. 

1321
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:19,800
Now, that one's not very good, 
but that one might be OK, and 

1322
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:23,080
that one there would be easier. 
And now suddenly you're in a 

1323
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:25,400
different mode completely. 
And you've changed your 

1324
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:28,200
thinking, Mark, when people 
wanna find you. 

1325
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:32,120
And I know Joel's gonna connect 
out with you, too, and see if 

1326
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:34,800
there's a way that we can take 
some of the resources and expand

1327
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:36,280
them into the. 
He changed the platform as it 

1328
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:40,960
grows, but if people want to 
contact you, First off, the 

1329
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:44,000
Imperfect Men's Club podcast, 
that's on, it's on all the 

1330
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,600
podcast platforms, right? 
Yeah, I think there's like 9 of 

1331
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:48,000
them, but all the big ones for 
sure. 

1332
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:50,280
But Apple and Spotify, right? 
Like that's what we care about. 

1333
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:52,960
I think it's no offense to all 
the other podcast platforms out 

1334
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:57,880
there, but you know, but but I 
mean, yeah, so OK, the imperfect

1335
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,040
men's club. 
OK. 

1336
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:01,760
And then and then what about you
yourself? 

1337
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:05,000
Where are you, if you want to, 
do you do social media as well? 

1338
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,240
Or is it mostly the website? 
Like where do you, where do you 

1339
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:08,400
want people to come and look for
you? 

1340
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:12,440
I spend most of my time on 
LinkedIn, and because I started 

1341
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:15,160
out there, because it's a career
space, right? 

1342
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:17,240
And it's morphed into a lot more
than that. 

1343
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:20,200
But I was there a long time ago.
I think I've been there 20 years

1344
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:23,240
now. 
Most of the stuff that I've been

1345
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:25,840
producing for the last few 
months has been specifically 

1346
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:30,520
around divorced men, but there's
also a ton of stuff and you can 

1347
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,960
get to all my other sites from 
there, like my website and my 

1348
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:36,440
YouTube channel. 
And I do some writing on Sub 

1349
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:39,000
Stack and Medium and Quora. 
I answer some questions and 

1350
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:40,160
stuff. 
So I'm out there. 

1351
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:43,640
But if you can get to all those 
other places from my LinkedIn 

1352
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:50,200
profile, which is like Mark last
names, AYLWARD and I think my 

1353
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:53,160
LinkedIn profile is forward 
slash, I'll word Mark. 

1354
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:57,480
But if you type my full name in 
just in Google, I think I my 

1355
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:00,040
LinkedIn profile shows up as the
number one search because it's a

1356
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:04,480
rather unique name. 
So just to keep it simple, I 

1357
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:07,080
would encourage anybody with 
whom any of this stuff 

1358
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:10,520
resonates, go find me on 
LinkedIn, connect with me if 

1359
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,640
you're inclined. 
You don't have to, but go sample

1360
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:16,080
some of the free stuff. 
I got some pretty cool videos on

1361
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:19,040
YouTube. 
Nothing's terribly polished, but

1362
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:23,680
I use a good mic and a good 
camera and I, I can speak pretty

1363
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:26,240
good. 
So, you know, most of it's 

1364
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,080
relatively relatively 
understandable. 

1365
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:33,280
And then, you know, the way that
I kind of ease into working, you

1366
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:36,200
know, in exchange for money with
people is I give people a 30 

1367
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:38,800
minute call on my dime. 
And that's, that's where we 

1368
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:42,160
start the reflection process. 
And what I promise people is 

1369
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:45,080
that even if we decide at the 
end that I can't help you or 

1370
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:47,760
you're not interested in my 
help, I'll leave you with two or

1371
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:51,520
three actionable things to do. 
And as you can tell already 

1372
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:53,920
you've been writing them down 
what some of those are. 

1373
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:58,320
And then you can you'll, you'll 
leave, I promise you. 

1374
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:01,000
You'll leave with more clarity 
than you arrived. 

1375
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:04,240
And and that'll be. 
Free, I mean, you think about 

1376
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:06,520
guys who are listening to this 
right now and, and, and that's 

1377
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:08,840
where they're at, you know, and,
and wherever you're at out 

1378
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:10,840
there, it, it can get better. 
You're not alone. 

1379
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:12,960
We've certainly talked about 
that here today. 

1380
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:15,840
Mark, I just want to say thank 
you again. 

1381
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:18,720
And I mean, we did only scratch 
the surface of some of the 

1382
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,680
adversity you've faced and, and,
and, and, but you know, we've, 

1383
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:24,200
we've given a good kind of 
flavor for it at least. 

1384
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:28,040
And, and you've taken and, and 
done something with it that many

1385
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:30,200
people don't do. 
And, and, and that's, that's 

1386
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:34,200
lean into it and then evolve it 
into coming to a place where you

1387
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:36,520
can help others going through 
the adversity that they're going

1388
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:38,040
through. 
That is certainly what he 

1389
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:39,760
changed. 
It is doing. 

1390
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:43,279
I hope that our that our circles
will connect and and the 

1391
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:46,520
collaboration can deepen. 
As yeah, me. 

1392
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:48,279
Too. 
Me too. 

1393
01:08:48,279 --> 01:08:51,840
I, I think that I would really 
enjoy further collaboration. 

1394
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:55,000
I'd love to come back on very 
gracious of you to have me and 

1395
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:56,319
you. 
You asked some really good 

1396
01:08:56,319 --> 01:09:00,319
questions and, and, and you 
wrote it all down, so you know 

1397
01:09:00,319 --> 01:09:03,040
what we haven't covered as well?
That'll be the next episode. 

1398
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:07,560
Absolutely, man, absolutely. 
Mark, it's a genuine pleasure to

1399
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:09,439
meet you today, everybody. 
I say this every time. 

1400
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,040
This is why we do the show. 
Yes, This is why we do the show.

1401
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:16,040
We do the show so we can put 
some clarity out there for guys 

1402
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:18,359
that are going through stuff 
and, and, and, and perhaps you 

1403
01:09:18,359 --> 01:09:20,800
know, others who have guys who 
are going through stuff that 

1404
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:23,240
need these insights, these 
specific points of view and 

1405
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:25,680
vantage points. 
If you haven't downloaded the 

1406
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:27,720
heat changing app yet, what the 
heck are you waiting for? 

1407
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:32,160
Go to heatchangeit.com for all 
of the the details and watch 

1408
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:33,479
this thing grow into the 
movement. 

1409
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,520
I mean, the goal is the the big 
hairy audacious goals. 

1410
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:38,120
We change the world. 
That's what we want to do 

1411
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:40,040
structure something. 
We want to change the world. 

1412
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:43,080
So let's make that happen. 
This has been another episode of

1413
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:45,680
heat cast the official podcast 
of he changed it. 

1414
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:48,359
My name is Mike Chisholm. 
Go change something.