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Welcome to Heat Cast, the 
official podcast of He Changed 

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it. 
As always, I am Mike Chisholm. 

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As always, I am so excited to 
have conversations in the world 

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surrounding men's mental 
Wellness. 

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I I love hearing these people 
stories. 

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Sometimes I think I'm the 
luckiest person involved in this

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entire project because I'm the 
guy that gets to hear the 

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stories right away. 
I'm the guy that gets to 

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interact and ask the questions. 
Hopefully as we do that we are 

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listening and, and I'm doing a 
good conduit for, for the 

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stories that, that, that come 
in. 

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Now today's story, I'm going to 
give the disclaimer right up. 

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There's some hard stuff in this,
OK, there's some hard stuff. 

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Our, our guy today, Todd 
McGuire, former police officer 

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from Australia. 
And I mean, he's written a book 

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called Donnie, an undercover cop
with a death wish. 

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And it's exactly like the title 
sounds. 

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This guy was undercover and, 
and, and, and we go through some

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of the stories that, that, that,
that he encountered as that was 

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happening. 
However, the thing that kick 

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started, this is a very, very 
grisly story. 

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He had a, a, a, a girl in his 
life, a gal in his life who was 

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very, very close to him. 
And she tragically took her own 

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life. 
And so this is one of those 

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episodes where we're throwing 
the disclaimer up right from the

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beginning. 
You know, he tells the story of 

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what he saw and, and, and what 
he went through. 

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And it's, it was in many ways a,
a, a gateway to a downward 

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spiral that he's so desperately 
now on the other end of it, you 

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know, a couple decades later 
wants to help people avoid. 

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And it's so amazing listening to
Todd talk about this, you know, 

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you got this massive Australian 
guy, you know, rugby players 

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strong and, and, and yet at the 
same time, all the things that 

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he has gone through has, has 
just brought this vulnerability 

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and kindness out of him where he
just wants to take his story and

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use it to help people. 
And I was certainly, certainly 

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moved by everything we talked 
about. 

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It was great talking to him 
about his perspectives on 

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things, you know, being a police
officer when he was some of the 

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ways that he, he, he the 
undercover operations work, 

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which is every bit as 
fascinating as you think it 

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would be in a movie or 
something. 

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So this is a very cool 
conversation. 

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I'm very, very proud to present 
on He Cast today my conversation

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with Todd McGuire. 
Todd, I am blown away by your 

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story. 
I, I, I love how I love how we 

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connected because, you know, I, 
I believe that law enforcement 

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is one of those things where, 
where there's a brotherhood 

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there, no matter what part of 
the planet that you're on. 

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And and and we've had we've had 
quite a few, you know, law 

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enforcement professionals on he 
cast before, but none with a 

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story like yours, author of 
Donnie, an undercover cop with a

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death wish, Todd McGuire. 
Donnie's obviously not your 

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name, but welcome to heat cast. 
And my first question is, 

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whenever you hear the name 
Donnie, does it make you turn 

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your head? 
Yes. 

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That I, I taught myself to at 
the time to always respond to 

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Donnie and not my real name. 
But it's still, it's still there

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every now and then, so. 
Wow. 

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You know, I think that all of 
us, not maybe not all of us, but

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a lot of us guys growing up, 
whether it is the the idea of 

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the stereotype, the 
sensationalization in in, in 

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media, you think about somebody 
who is an undercover cop and 

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going undercover to do some 
things. 

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You know, there are certain, 
yeah, stereotypes, I guess, is 

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probably the the best word of 
generalizations that people 

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have. 
When did you know that you 

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wanted to be in law enforcement?
And then did you always know 

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that you wanted to go into this 
side of it? 

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Now I am, I sort of joined when 
I was 23. 

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I finished school when I was 
1679. 

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So it was still a bit of time 
between that and I was following

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the hospitality line. 
I wanted to be a public. 

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I like run a bar or run a hotel.
And, and I was doing those sort 

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of things. 
And it was just by chance that I

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was having a drink with a mate 
at at a pub down the Gold Coast 

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and and he said, why don't you 
join the cops? 

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And after about the 5th beer, I 
said, I'll do it once just to 

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shut you out. 
And and La Behala got in and I 

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never looked back to be I just 
once I got in, I actually really

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liked it. 
Sure, I, I can, I can certainly 

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understand that, you know, the 
human desire for community and, 

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and, and belonging and 
connection and things. 

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And I mean, again, I know, I 
know the North American version 

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of that. 
You know, I'm from Canada, but I

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mean, you know, I've had 
American law enforcement, of 

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course, the media and things 
like that. 

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And when you go into something 
like that, there is that 

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community and that brotherhood 
and that is around the world 

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too. 
That's just like that in 

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Australia as well, right? 
The sense of belonging. 

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I I actually visited USA in 1999
with a Australian Police rugby 

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league site and the reception we
got from the police over in in 

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New York and New Jersey and 
Philadelphia was second to none.

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It was almost like we were 
family to them. 

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It was so, so welcoming. 
It was amazing. 

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Do you miss that brotherhood 
now? 

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I do, yeah. 
Yeah, I definitely do. 

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I'm not sure if it's the same in
in my place area anymore. 

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It seems to have changed a lot. 
But I I have fond memories of 

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the 1st 10 or 15 years of having
that camaraderie, playing a lot 

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of sport, looking after each 
other's backs. 

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It was pretty cool. 
I, I, the first thing that I 

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thought about cause again, like 
I've got family members who, 

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who, who are on the force over 
here and, and, and I, I know 

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quite a few. 
I, I guess one of the questions 

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that I have is for, for much of 
our audience is from North 

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America. 
Do you think that the police 

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force in Australia is very 
similar or different? 

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Are there major differences 
between what we see over here in

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North America versus what you 
have there or is it, is it the 

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same thing all over the world? 
I think policing is the same 

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everywhere. 
There still seems to be the 

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culture of, you know, the, the 
foot soldiers seem to be doing 

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all the work and, and society 
and, and, and the organization 

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don't seem to support them at 
which which usually brings the 

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foot soldiers together. 
It more camaraderie together 

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because they feel like they're 
on a siege. 

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And I, I think that that that's 
something that seems to be 

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happening all around the world. 
Yeah, it's the tribalism that is

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going on in the polarization of,
of, of people is, is, is 

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astounding. 
It certainly is over here right 

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now. 
And I mean, you know, a few 

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years ago there was this, in my 
opinion, nonsense about people 

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going out and saying, you know, 
defund the police over here in 

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North America. 
People were people were actually

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believing that. 
And it's just like, no, are you 

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kidding me? 
I think it's the opposite. 

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I think we need to get these 
people more support, more 

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training and, and, and at the 
end of the day, the competition 

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for the job should be, it should
be fierce because the standard 

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is so high and you don't get 
that by, by defunding things. 

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That's, that's, that's what I 
see anyway. 

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What year UK you were 23 and 
what year was that when you when

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you started? 
Yeah. 

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So I joined, it was six months 
in the Academy and that was in 

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1996. 
And and then I, I, I was out out

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and first year constable as a in
1997 in April. 

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OK, as a constable, you know, 
learning the ropes of things and

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whatnot, what is the typical, 
you know, I mean, obviously 

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theft is everywhere, you know, 
investigation is everywhere. 

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You know, I, I would assume 
traffic tickets and things like 

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that are everywhere. 
Was that basically what was just

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general keeping of the peace in 
the in the? 

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Community yeah, first, first 
couple of years is just a broad 

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range of everything. 
So, you know, you get a an idea 

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of exactly what's going on in 
the police and then that's when 

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you can specialize if you choose
to. 

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That's that's how I looked at 
and and I was very interested 

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in, in, in serious 
organizational crime and I 

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wanted to be a detective. 
That was my goal. 

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I this is where exactly the, the
question I had, how long when 

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before you were in there and you
kind of learned the ropes? 

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Did you want to start 
specializing? 

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Sounds like right away. 
And, and the idea of 

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investigative and, and the 
investigative arm of things and,

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and, and being a detective, the 
idea of just the thrill that is 

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inside so many boys and so many 
men. 

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Is that, is that really what it 
was? 

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It was the, the thrill of 
things. 

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Was there something specifically
about it that you were good at 

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or that you you you enjoyed 
about it? 

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I think sort of, I come from a 
background of, you know, working

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in hotels, playing a lot of 
sport, playing a lot of rugby 

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league and just a knockabout 
sort of fella didn't take things

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too seriously. 
I found that I could, I could 

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talk to people quite easily on 
their level and not talk down to

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them. 
You could get confessions quite 

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easily or you could you could 
generate some good informants 

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that way as well. 
I felt that if I was going to 

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join the place I wanted to make 
a serious difference and you 

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know, investigate serious 
crimes, not just just not your 

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street level stuff. 
I was not not interested in 

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giving tickets. 
Yeah, traffic staff that that 

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just didn't didn't do anything 
for me. 

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But, you know, I wanted to catch
the, the murders, the rapists, 

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the, you know, all of those sort
of ones. 

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You know, I think that there are
stereotypes as well about 

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Australia. 
You know, the, you know, we, we,

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we hear over here across, across
the other side of the world, you

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know, Oh yeah. 
They don't have a ton of guns 

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there. 
They don't have a lot of, you 

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know, it's a, it's a different, 
it's a, it's a different animal 

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over there is that would you, 
would you say that that's an 

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accurate thing? 
Were there were there certain 

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crimes that bubbled up to the 
surface that that that that 

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happened more often than other, 
other crimes? 

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Yeah, when I look at the 
statistics of what have out in 

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America, I mean we we pile in 
into insignificance with that. 

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You know, some of the murder 
rates and the homicide rates in 

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in some of those places are just
they're, they're probably 50 

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years worth for us in one, one 
year for over there. 

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So, yeah, I'm blown away by how 
that happens, how those 

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organizations can spend the time
investigating because most times

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a Murdoch really could take 
almost six months to a year to 

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investigate and when we might 
only have, you know, maybe 10 or

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20 compared to the numbers that 
you have. 

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And yeah, we certainly don't 
have the the gun culture. 

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We know that most people, if 
they have a gun, it's usually 

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illegal. 
So Yep. 

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And but it is becoming more 
prevalent. 

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It's certainly noticing a lot 
more. 

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A lot of people are carrying 
knowledge now, especially the 

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younger brigade. 
So different, different beast, 

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but still the same level of 
violence here. 

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So you're doing this for a few 
years. 

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You realize that you want to 
move into the investigative side

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of things. 
Did you do that for a while, or 

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was undercover one of the things
that kind of bubbled up faster 

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than than than slower? 
Yeah, So I'll tell you the story

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of how how it actually happened 
and, and, and hold on to your 

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seats here. 
This is this is this is pretty 

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serious, pretty, pretty heavy. 
So I was, I was probably 2 to 2 

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1/2 years into the place. 
I've done a done a few little 

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stints, you know, tipping my tow
into the, into the CRB work and 

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the plainclothes investigative 
work, but being identified as 

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someone that, you know, in time 
I'll, I'll get to go there. 

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I was identified that, you know,
he's a good worker, seems to be 

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on the ball. 
And I was just doing my time. 

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I was just, you know, keep 
arresting people, finding the 

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right crooks and just doing what
I have to do. 

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I still very green and I wasn't 
in any rush to do anything. 

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Yeah. 
However, it was New Year's Eve 

224
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,320
on 1999. 
And if people can remember back 

225
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,320
then, the big thing was the Y2K 
2K. 

226
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,920
Yeah. 
Where, you know, the world was 

227
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,960
supposed to stop the next day. 
You know, the computers were 

228
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,480
going to backpedal and all, 
everything was going to crash. 

229
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,320
So there was a fair bit of fear 
across the world. 

230
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,520
And that 99 or I had to work at 
10:00 PM to 6:00 AM. 

231
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:51,080
It was a, a night shift in 
uniform, just walking, walking, 

232
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,880
you know, the malls. 
So there's a lot of violence, a 

233
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:54,440
lot of fights, a lot of 
drunkenness. 

234
00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:00,640
And, and I went with a group of 
people for dinner beforehand 

235
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,160
with the with the girl that I 
was saying I'd moved in with her

236
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:09,880
about 18 months earlier. 
She'd she had had just recently 

237
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,080
separate or divorced from a 
husband. 

238
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,920
I think it was divorced or 
separated, can't remember now. 

239
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,840
And she had a little 3 year old 
boy, 4 year old boy. 

240
00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:22,480
And we're getting on really 
well. 

241
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,880
Future was looking really nice. 
She was living in a in a 

242
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,920
hinterland property out at 
Madura Bar for anyone that knows

243
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,680
on the Gold Coast, which is 
serves paradise area. 

244
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:39,400
It was a really nice sort of 
semi rural sort of setting. 

245
00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:43,680
It was beautiful. 
Anyway, we went out to dinner 

246
00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:46,840
and and one of my old phones, if
you remember back then, the old 

247
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:52,800
Nokia 6110 or the 3110 we we had
to do the star and enter to to 

248
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,760
open it or unlock it. 
I could I hear a couple of beeps

249
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,840
in my in my pocket and and I 
thought I mustn't have locked 

250
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:01,480
it. 
This could be doing a pocket 

251
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,120
doll got it out just to clear it
and I had 666 on it. 

252
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:09,480
And I just made a joke to to the
people in the that I was having 

253
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,000
dinner with and I said, look at 
this. 

254
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,680
I just got a message. 
Looks like the the world is 

255
00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:15,920
going to end tomorrow. 
Made a bit of a joke about it. 

256
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,680
Everyone laughed. 
Sure. 

257
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,000
Anyway, I had the so all the men
went to went to work because 

258
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,640
we're all police and the women 
went to a nightclub and, and my 

259
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:27,520
girlfriend, she went out with 
all the others and they're 

260
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,400
having a great night. 
They were sending me, you know, 

261
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,000
you know, text messages and 
ringing them and having a fun 

262
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,120
night in between the fights that
we were stopping. 

263
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,160
Anyway, I picked her up at 5:30 
or 6:00 in the morning and we 

264
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,320
went home and, you know, she was
pretty tired by that time. 

265
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,240
I was tired. 
I had to sort of start work in 

266
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:50,080
the afternoon on one of those 
quick shifts and, and I'll, you 

267
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,760
know, I won't go too far into 
what happened there, but 

268
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,560
essentially we, we both went to 
sleep in the morning and, and I 

269
00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:05,320
woke up at about 1:35 and I had 
my little, the little 4 year old

270
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,560
boy got sort of saying, mommy, 
where are you? 

271
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,800
Mommy, Mommy, where are you? 
And I rolled over and you know, 

272
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,600
her side of the bed was cold. 
She wasn't there. 

273
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,360
It was like, OK, this is weird. 
So I picked him up and I said 

274
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:18,800
let's go and have a look, bit of
a look for Mummy. 

275
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:19,800
Where's Mummy? 
Where's Mummy? 

276
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:21,000
I'm making a bit of a game of 
it. 

277
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,200
Not in this room. 
Not in this room. 

278
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:24,720
Yeah, my eyes are still hanging 
out. 

279
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,400
I'd had about 3 hours sleep so 
far and I wasn't. 

280
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,400
I honestly had not ever thought 
of this ever coming into my mind

281
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,400
prior to this at all. 
We need all these rooms. 

282
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,560
And I knew that our laundry was 
downstairs in a makeshift type. 

283
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,560
It was, it was a garage that was
made into a rumpus room type 

284
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,760
thing for OK, for guests and so 
forth, asleep as well. 

285
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:48,120
But that's where the laundry 
was. 

286
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,680
And, and I said, oh, let's go 
downstairs. 

287
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,760
She might be putting a load of 
washing on or, or fixing 

288
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,080
something down there. 
As I went downstairs, walked 

289
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,160
down the steps, opened a sliding
door and I saw her. 

290
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:04,840
She she'd actually hung herself 
and, and, and she'd used a white

291
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,320
electrical cord and wrapped 
around her neck many, many 

292
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:09,880
times. 
It was really, really tight. 

293
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,000
My first thought was just to 
throw him as far as wide as 

294
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:18,680
possible. 
I I threw him because I didn't 

295
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:19,960
want him to see his mum like 
that. 

296
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,200
I slammed the door shut. 
And then the way that I ascribe 

297
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,120
it was the physical pain was 
more than the mental pain at the

298
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,280
time. 
It felt like something had hit 

299
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,120
me so hard in the chest that I 
couldn't breathe. 

300
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:39,240
My legs went numb, they couldn't
move and I was like looking out.

301
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:45,880
I just just in gobsmack and then
started yelling, crying, all of 

302
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:47,040
the words why have you done 
this? 

303
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:48,840
What happened? 
What's happening like this can't

304
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,720
be real. 
And as you can imagine, you 

305
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,600
know, time sort of stood still. 
I still don't know to this day 

306
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,920
how long it was. 
I do remember picking her up, 

307
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,920
thinking if I pick her up and 
get it back around around her 

308
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,240
neck, she might be alive, but 
she was very cold. 

309
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,520
And I think dig down. 
I knew that she wasn't with us 

310
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,119
anymore. 
I made the decision because I 

311
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,319
couldn't get the electrical cord
from around her neck to put her 

312
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:20,560
back down. 
And I, I was really worried 

313
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,400
about that because I thought 
that might have done something 

314
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,119
more, but in hindsight, she was 
already dead. 

315
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:30,000
But I couldn't get the, the new 
other, the electrical cord from 

316
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,240
around because you know, when 
it's really, when it's really 

317
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,960
tied together, you just can't 
get any to move. 

318
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,480
And Oh yeah, I ran upstairs, got
a knife, came back down, cut the

319
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,560
cut the cord and begin CPR. 
And I can't remember if we did 

320
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,560
it for 2 minutes or 20 minutes, 
but at one stage I thought that 

321
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,920
I'd got a breathing, but it was 
just my ear going and rising 

322
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,240
into her chest and then coming 
back out again. 

323
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,200
Yeah. 
I've made the decision at some 

324
00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:04,120
stage to go and find your 4 year
old and I went OK, I think this 

325
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:05,720
is gone here. 
I better find out where Clark 

326
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,880
is. 
I ran outside and luckily he was

327
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,000
just sort of waiting around the 
corner for me. 

328
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:17,080
So I, I picked up him and I rang
Triple O and rang the police 

329
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,120
station where I was supposed to 
start that afternoon and said 

330
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:22,560
you better get some, get some 
people out here. 

331
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,880
The, the weird part about this 
whole thing is when the young 

332
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:34,920
fellow was 10 years old, I spoke
to him and he went, he obviously

333
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,480
went and lived with his dad 
there after, after that. 

334
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:42,320
And they said, oh, he's now 
ready to talk about what 

335
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,840
happened that day. 
He'd done a lot of, a lot of 

336
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,440
work with, with, with 
professionals and so forth. 

337
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,000
And, and the dad said, yeah, I 
think he's ready. 

338
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,880
I said, OK, any questions you 
got, let me know. 

339
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,600
So we went through the whole day
and one, one question that 

340
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:04,640
really stuck with me was so 
Todd, why was, why did the big 

341
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,920
black dog have me pinned up 
against the wall while you're 

342
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,680
inside? 
And I said, we didn't have a dog

343
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:13,720
mate. 
There's no dogs in our street. 

344
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,720
It was a cul-de-sac and we lived
on acreage. 

345
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,200
There was no dog at all. 
And I said, I, I didn't know 

346
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,240
anyone that anyhow hadn't been a
black dog. 

347
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,760
And it took me a while to sort 
of really work that out. 

348
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:33,560
And I've realized what that is, 
is that that is, you know, my 

349
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:39,160
partner, Karen, that was her 
black dog leaving her and coming

350
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:40,560
into me and, and the young 
fella. 

351
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,720
And one of my messages that I 
say to people is, you know, if 

352
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,840
you if you've got the black dog 
and you think that ending in 

353
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:52,120
life is going to stop that black
dog from living, it just gets 

354
00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:54,800
passed on to your family and if 
and your loved ones. 

355
00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:00,480
And that's what it did for me. 
Todd, by this point, you know, 

356
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,680
you've been, you've been, you 
know, for lack of a better term 

357
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:03,920
on the force. 
You've been, you've been, you 

358
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:09,600
know, been a part of this for. 
A few years now, had you run 

359
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,280
into that situation? 
You know, I've talked to a lot 

360
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,720
of, again, a lot of law 
enforcement and, and many times,

361
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,640
you know, the, the, the, the, 
the first people on a scene when

362
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,360
things like this happen. 
Had you, had you seen that 

363
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:25,400
before? 
Or is this at this point the 

364
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:30,800
most extreme version of of of of
of something like this that you 

365
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,560
had seen by this point? 
I've definitely seen it before, 

366
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,560
yeah. 
But when you're when you work, 

367
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,880
you really, you disassociate 
yourself with it. 

368
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,400
Right. 
But I do know that, you know, 

369
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:47,000
growing up, I had a really 
excellent upbringing with no 

370
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,920
trauma, no abuse, no death. 
There was, you know, my grandma 

371
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:52,880
died. 
That was about it. 

372
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,320
No one, no one around me died. 
I hadn't had to experience grief

373
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,200
or loss. 
And, and I sort of think that 

374
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,200
the way that I handled this was 
because it was the first time I 

375
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,360
really ever had to and it was so
close to me. 

376
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,480
I really, I really struggled 
with it. 

377
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,840
Well, it started a spiral at 
this point, right? 

378
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,360
Like this was in, in many 
respects, you know, I don't want

379
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:19,280
to get too far ahead of the 
story, but it, but at the end of

380
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,840
the day, this was, this was the 
event that, that, that kind of 

381
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:28,040
started a cascade of, of events 
that, you know, impacted you to 

382
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:29,960
this day, to the point where, 
you know, I'm going to write the

383
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,280
book and talk about this and I'm
going to get this stuff out 

384
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,840
there. 
When you saw some of these 

385
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,560
things beforehand. 
And I mean, you know, a lot has 

386
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,080
been written about how, how, how
much, you know, law enforcement 

387
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,840
are first responders, as we, you
know, as we call them here in, 

388
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,880
in, in, in Canada, There's 
programs, there's talking, you 

389
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,200
know, when something happens, 
there's a debrief that happens 

390
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,800
to make sure that things are OK 
in the head. 

391
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,200
At least that's what they're 
supposed to be. 

392
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,000
You know, that's, that's the 
direction that we're moving. 

393
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,200
That's the direction we're 
moving. 

394
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:03,760
But there's also still to this 
day stigma and, and, you know, 

395
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:09,480
people almost untrusting of 
these things here because it 

396
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,400
thinks there might be 
repercussions or whatever that 

397
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:16,040
looks like. 
Did you have any of that prior 

398
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,680
and specifically after this 
situation, was there any of that

399
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:26,520
even offered to you back then? 
No, no, because when when the 

400
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,280
Detective Inspector arrived 
later that day, I basically just

401
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,920
got grilled on why the why the 
knife was there and I felt like 

402
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,480
I was a bit of a suspect, to be 
honest with that. 

403
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,200
Yeah, that didn't really get in 
well with me. 

404
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,120
As I got as I got longer term in
the, in the police and more 

405
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,640
experience, I understood the 
line of questioning. 

406
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:51,920
It was more to rule me out than 
to than to, you know, I 

407
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,720
understand it now, but I 
remember at the time I, I 

408
00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,960
couldn't understand it because I
was in such such, you know, 

409
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,280
grief stricken died, couldn't 
understand that, not even ask me

410
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,720
that question. 
Yeah. 

411
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,080
So how many days after this 
happened did you go back to 

412
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,920
work? 
I had three months off and. 

413
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,800
Took three. 
OK, so they gave you, they gave 

414
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,320
you something they gave you, 
they gave you. 

415
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,600
Was there a psych eval and all 
that kind of stuff at the time 

416
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,840
or or or? 
You know, I just asked for a 

417
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,400
transfer to go back to my home 
city where I, where I grew up 

418
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,760
and live, live with my sister. 
Yeah. 

419
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,800
And, and I basically said, yeah,
I need 3 months off. 

420
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,840
And, and this is where I sort of
look back and I wish that I 

421
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,360
hadn't done what I'd done. 
I, I, I found, I found my best 

422
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:47,160
friend at the end end of empty 
bottle. 

423
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,960
You know, I started drinking way
too much. 

424
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,840
I really that was the only way 
that I felt that I could cope. 

425
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,720
So alcohol was your coping 
mechanism at that point? 

426
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:58,480
Yeah, it was. 
Yeah. 

427
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,360
Yeah, yeah. 
Well, it's, it's funny because 

428
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:05,880
you know, Australians worldwide,
you know, many people would, 

429
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,160
would, would, would just give 
the crown of drinking to the, 

430
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,800
the, the country and continent 
of, of Australia. 

431
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,800
You know, you know, you guys, 
you guys know how to do it. 

432
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,320
You guys know how to do it. 
You can be, you know, when you 

433
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,640
come, when you combine it with 
sport and, and all of that, you 

434
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,280
just think about the culture. 
There's a drinking culture 

435
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,440
there. 
Did you have that before? 

436
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,560
And what had changed in that 
point? 

437
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,120
Was it? 
It was, it was more of a need 

438
00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:33,080
now as opposed to a situational 
let's have some fun. 

439
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:34,600
It was a need. 
It was a daily thing. 

440
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,360
Yeah, I noticed in hindsight 
there was a significant 

441
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:43,480
difference in the two. 
Where the one was, it was more 

442
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,800
social and enjoyable. 
Where to cope? 

443
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,520
It was an angry drink. 
It was by myself and it wasn't 

444
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,200
fun. 
It wasn't. 

445
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,120
It was it was a destructive way 
of doing things. 

446
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,400
Did you ever get yourself into 
trouble when when you were when 

447
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,560
you were intoxicated? 
Or what? 

448
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,880
Yeah, yeah. 
I think I know where this is 

449
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,480
going. 
There's a lot of guys out there 

450
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,760
who when something happens, 
whether it's, you know, a death 

451
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:24,200
around them, divorce, you know, 
just just just real, real 

452
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,000
struggle. 
Many times guys will put their 

453
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,480
head down and just bury 
themselves into work and that 

454
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,160
becomes their identity. 
Is that something that happened 

455
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,200
to you? 
No, I was the opposite. 

456
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:41,200
Oh yeah, I remember driving 
around in a police car and no 

457
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:42,400
idea what was going on around 
me. 

458
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:48,920
I was so spaced out, so just not
even aware of what was going on.

459
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,280
Like there could have been an 
armed robbery right in front of 

460
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,920
me and I wouldn't, wouldn't have
seen it because I, my mind was 

461
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:59,200
so far away. 
And yeah, yeah, I definitely 

462
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:05,040
didn't get into work that much. 
It was, it was probably nine 

463
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:10,600
months later, I was, I was in a 
bar in, in the, in the valley 

464
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,240
in, in Brisbane. 
And I, I heard this voice at the

465
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:20,160
bar and it was the same fellow 
who sort of convinced me to join

466
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,640
the police. 
Now we're probably looking at 

467
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:28,000
five years earlier. 
And but I looked at him and it 

468
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,880
wasn't the same face as what I 
remembered. 

469
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,920
Like he had long dreadlocks. 
He had earrings coming out of 

470
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,200
his eyes and nose and 
everything. 

471
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,600
And, and I said, what are you 
doing? 

472
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,320
And he said I'm undercover, 
don't tell anyone. 

473
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:45,840
No kidding. 
Yeah, and he goes shoot. 

474
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,440
Come over here. 
So I remember there was a group 

475
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,280
of them that had a obviously a 
in between jobs and they were 

476
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:53,480
having a bit of a, a get 
together themselves. 

477
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,800
And, and I sort of said, jeez, 
they look like they look like 

478
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,600
the roadies of bloody Bon Jovi 
cover band or something. 

479
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,760
Not Bon Jovi, Not Bon Jovi. 
The Bon Jovi cover band. 

480
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:06,960
That's who they were the roadies
for. 

481
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:12,960
There, Yeah, yeah. 
So they're looking wild and 

482
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,280
woolly. 
They didn't look like cops at 

483
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,120
all. 
And so when I run, had a bit of 

484
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:19,920
a chat with him for a minute 
for, for a while and started 

485
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,280
listening to their stories. 
And yeah, I went home that 

486
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,760
night. 
I went, that's what I'm doing. 

487
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,640
I've got nothing to lose. 
I've got no future. 

488
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:33,320
I've got, you know, I'm, I'm 
living in with my sister. 

489
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,840
And I thought to myself prior to
that I had a, you know, I 

490
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,560
thought I had a future with a, 
with a, with a lovely girl and, 

491
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,640
and a nice area and a house. 
And I really felt there was no 

492
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,160
future for me at that point in 
time. 

493
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,480
So I went, we got nothing to 
lose. 

494
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:54,080
Let's do it. 
So I did it, got in and within 

495
00:27:54,080 --> 00:28:00,240
12 months of Karen's death, I, I
walked into the the office of, 

496
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,480
of the undercover unit. 
And they, and they gave me a 

497
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,400
piece of paper and said, your 
name now is Donnie Wilson. 

498
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,840
And here's your first job. 
See you later. 

499
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,200
Were you prepared? 
Did you know? 

500
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:16,800
Did you know that, or was it you
know? 

501
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:23,760
It was a four week course and 
unlike any course, it never 

502
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,560
fully prepares you. 
Yeah. 

503
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,480
And I think that you sort of, 
you get the basics and you do a 

504
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,000
lot of, I did a lot of homework.
I got prepared by, you know, 

505
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,400
really narrowing down the whites
of drugs, the pricing, you know,

506
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,120
tagging bits off clip seal bags,
how much they weigh. 

507
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,560
I, I made sure that, you know, 
always had my, my scars with me 

508
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,760
and always tested people's scars
in case they were bullshitting 

509
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,560
me. 
And if you put in Australia's 

510
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,160
two 20s and a 10 cent piece was 
exactly 28.4g. 

511
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,440
So that's sort of all those 
little, little things like that 

512
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,400
just to make sure. 
The arcane knowledge, Todd, the 

513
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,280
arcane knowledge that's in your 
head, it's just that's crazy. 

514
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:14,200
Like, OK, you didn't want to 
scale, all right, put these 3 

515
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:19,640
coins in. 
And so you're learning all this 

516
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,480
stuff to prepare. 
OK, so that's the that's that's 

517
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,520
kind of the the logical stuff. 
But then it's a matter of you're

518
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,560
creating a new persona like like
your name's Donnie Wilson and 

519
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,400
and and and is it up to you to 
develop the back story? 

520
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,360
Is a back story given to you? 
Is that something that is a 

521
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:38,400
little? 
Bit of both. 

522
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:45,240
Yeah, well, each, each back 
story usually, usually is 

523
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,880
made-up when I started a new job
and you're given a registered 

524
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,360
informant to introduce you to 
people. 

525
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,560
So you'd you'd find out more 
about them and then make a back 

526
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,560
story. 
And you always made it quite 

527
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,560
simple, very simple, just so it 
didn't sort of go bad. 

528
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,960
But yeah, most times it always 
did. 

529
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,560
You're given a registered 
informant. 

530
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,680
OK where's the trust level 
there? 

531
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,680
Like, like, like, like. 
OK, yeah, I was going to say I 

532
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,520
was going to say so like, OK. 
And it's like, I mean, you know,

533
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,240
drugs, it makes a lot of sense. 
At the time, what was the drug 

534
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,920
of choice that you guys were 
going after? 

535
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,160
And what was the what was the 
the underground economy that you

536
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,000
were trying to break into? 
What was the? 

537
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,400
Yeah, it's interesting to say 
that because that was one of the

538
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,640
reasons why I wanted to write 
this book, because I'd read, I'd

539
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,400
read a couple of undercover 
books of blokes in in 

540
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,920
Queensland, Australia that wrote
about their time in the 70s and 

541
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,680
80s. 
And a lot of that was a lot of 

542
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:55,520
marijuana and a lot of a lot of 
heroin and a lot of pretty heavy

543
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,800
gun crime back then, armed 
robberies and banks and so 

544
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,040
forth. 
And, and what I noticed is so 

545
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,840
the majority of of my drugs that
we were chasing when, when I was

546
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,360
going through was obviously 
around the turn of the century, 

547
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,480
2001, whatever. 
And, and it was, it was 

548
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,120
amphetamines. 
So speed where, where everyone 

549
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,200
was basically being a home cook 
or a industrial cook. 

550
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,280
Yeah, that was huge. 
And we were probably about 3 or 

551
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:30,240
4 years into the MDMA scene 
hitting, hitting Australia as 

552
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,560
well. 
Yeah. 

553
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,360
And sort of massive change in, 
in the way that we did business 

554
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:43,080
and the way that normal people 
like we're always used to sort 

555
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,040
of the heroin junkie type 
attitude where they used to 

556
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,320
steal. 
And that's where cops didn't 

557
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,960
like that, where people had to 
steal to, to feed their, their 

558
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,320
drug habit. 
Yep. 

559
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,960
But what I noticed with the MDMA
pills was fairly cheap and it 

560
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,640
was just a weekend experience 
for someone to go to a, a 

561
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,120
concert or, or a, you know, a 
music thing. 

562
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,800
So some of the people that were 
getting roped into these things 

563
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,840
were, were, were not criminals 
at all. 

564
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,160
They apart from taking some, 
some pills, they had not, yeah, 

565
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:19,960
committed a crime in their 
lives. 

566
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,280
So I really noticed the 
difference in, in the, when 

567
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,320
people, you know, I was just say
just general, like let's say 

568
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,080
hairdressers, teachers, bank 
Johnnys, whatever they, they 

569
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,080
became charged. 
They became crooks in in our 

570
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,520
eyes, but in the real world they
really weren't. 

571
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,600
But then they became a a real 
big backlash against the place 

572
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,280
because they usually would have 
been on our side. 

573
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,720
But then we're we're now 
demonizing it. 

574
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,360
So the court of public opinion 
says this is not dangerous to 

575
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,200
anybody, it's a bad law, and 
you're stuck between a rock and 

576
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,360
a hard place going, OK, the 
court of public opinion says 

577
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,560
this, but the law says this, and
I'm supposed to uphold the law. 

578
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,200
Yeah. 
Yeah, that's a tough spot, man. 

579
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:08,480
That's a really, really tough 
spot. 

580
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,360
Like I'm, I'm super curious, 
'cause like now, I mean, you 

581
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,960
know, I, I remember growing up 
in the just say no years over 

582
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,160
here and, and I'm certain that 
that that was a worldwide, you 

583
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:24,040
know, expression and, and I 
mean, I remember being taught 

584
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,440
things about marijuana back 
then. 

585
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,640
And now I live in a country 
where it's completely legal and,

586
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,400
and, and it's a, you know, you 
know, you, you grow up with the,

587
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,400
and for lack of a better term, 
the reefer madness, you know, 

588
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,760
mentality of, of, of what 
marijuana does. 

589
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,680
And then now you look and you 
see where things are at. 

590
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,600
I'm super, super curious. 
Your point of view is going to 

591
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,000
be one that's very, in my 
opinion, that's going to be 

592
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,440
unique and, and, and educated in
a very, very interesting way. 

593
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,720
Has your opinion on drugs 
changed? 

594
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,480
You know, in, in, in all of 
these, these decades that have 

595
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,000
gone by now, has your opinion of
drugs changed? 

596
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,880
Absolutely. 
I, I actually wanted to talk 

597
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,920
about that in my book, but my, I
was, I was sort of discouraged. 

598
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,719
Maybe that's part of my second 
book, but I, I spent 27 years 

599
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:20,600
pretty much chasing and 
searching for illegal drugs. 

600
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,400
And obviously two of those years
were as an undercover agent. 

601
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:26,719
The rest were just 
investigating. 

602
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:29,080
Yep. 
And yeah, I've, I've got a 

603
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,120
different version of them and 
you know, there's there's some 

604
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,440
drugs that if they're made 
correctly, can actually help 

605
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,440
people. 
Obviously, Yeah, yeah. 

606
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,400
MDMA. 
MDMA is being used for therapy 

607
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,639
for all sorts of things, 
ironically, including PTSD, 

608
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:48,080
which, you know, that's, that's 
kind of why I was asking. 

609
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,320
I was, you know, because you've 
clear, you know, you've talked 

610
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,679
about it and I, I want to get 
into some of the mental health 

611
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,080
struggles that you, you've. 
Been diagnosed with I'm 

612
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,160
investigating trying to trying 
to do some ketamine theory 

613
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,360
therapy as well so Yep. 
I think that, well, you know 

614
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,840
what I can, I can, I, I can open
up that I, you know, my, I lost 

615
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,360
my father in, in, in April of 
last year, you know, and I mean 

616
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,160
this, this is the first time I'm
really saying this publicly, but

617
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,880
I don't, I don't care because I,
I, it was, it was, he had six 

618
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,600
months of a very, very horrible 
type of dementia called Lewy 

619
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,680
body dementia, which is not 
Alzheimer's. 

620
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,800
It's something significantly 
worse. 

621
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,000
And my mom and I, he was 
hospitalized for the last three 

622
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,680
months of his life. 
And it was a very, very 

623
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,000
traumatic time. 
You know, when we lost him, it 

624
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,240
was a, it was a, it was a 
blessing, but still very, very, 

625
00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:37,920
very difficult. 
It was, it was extremely 

626
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:39,600
difficult. 
And I went and did a bunch of 

627
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:45,120
research as to what, to what, 
what, what can happen and what 

628
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,480
can, what can help. 
And I didn't like the idea of 

629
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,400
being on a, a pharmaceutical 
SSRI for the rest of my life or 

630
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,440
for, you know, I, I didn't like 
that at all. 

631
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,280
And, and so I started looking at
things like ibogaine and like 

632
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,120
ketamine and whatnot. 
And here where I live, there's a

633
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,880
clinic I had to get referred by 
my doctor and, and, and I had 

634
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,720
ketamine therapy with, you know,
an anesthesiologist administered

635
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:09,400
it and I had a nurse with me the
entire time. 

636
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,960
And it was, it was extremely 
clinical, but at the same time 

637
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,080
completely life changing in, in,
in many respects. 

638
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:23,400
And I look at that and I look at
the stigma that's attached to 

639
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:24,360
that. 
Like I've never really said it 

640
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:25,560
publicly. 
I've never said it on the on the

641
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,840
podcast, but the people that 
I've talked to about it that 

642
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,800
I've confided in that I've done 
it. 

643
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,560
The plethora of reactions, Todd 
has been like all over the 

644
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:38,880
place. 
Some people are like, oh, tell 

645
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,520
me more and some people it has 
literally hurt my relationship 

646
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,720
with them because they have that
just say no stigma about drugs. 

647
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:49,280
They're they're in cement about 
it. 

648
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:56,160
And, and, and, and for you, I 
mean, my gosh, you, you were 

649
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,040
there times when you're doing 
the job where like you, like 

650
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,240
you've alluded to it, that must 
have created a crisis of 

651
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:03,720
confidence when you're looking 
at this teacher or this banker 

652
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:07,440
who was enjoying a show and, 
and, and, and using the MDMA 

653
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,400
for, for, for, for that to 
enhance some things. 

654
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,520
I'm not, I'm not discounting the
fact that they broke the law. 

655
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,400
Like I get that, but that must 
have created a very interesting 

656
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,560
dynamic in your head, like 
almost an argument a little bit.

657
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,320
And it's hard when you're hired 
to do something, but your 

658
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:23,800
conscience is telling you 
something else. 

659
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,200
That must have been difficult as
well. 

660
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,360
Yeah, it was. 
And and there was there's one 

661
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,120
example I'd give that was pretty
powerful. 

662
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,160
And it was someone that I'd 
actually become friends with in 

663
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,400
the in the nightclub scene. 
It was blowing pills off him. 

664
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,320
He was confiding in me with bad 
hair. 

665
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,200
He's his world was falling 
apart. 

666
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:44,760
He'd lost his wife. 
It. 

667
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,640
Yeah, I'm sorry. 
He had. 

668
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,160
Yeah, separated from his wife, 
had two, two daughters and he 

669
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,840
was just going through a bad 
breakup and was using drugs and 

670
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,360
selling something he just sold 
to the wrong bike on the wrong 

671
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,280
night, you know, and, and then, 
and then we became mites. 

672
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:09,040
You know, I was really torn by 
it because I could tell that he 

673
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,360
wasn't a crook. 
He wasn't like he still had a 

674
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,160
normal job. 
He was doing this to cope. 

675
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:22,120
And Yep, he, he brought the law,
but and then, you know, he got 

676
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,000
arrested. 
He got charged with trafficking 

677
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,600
of, as I say, methyl Leoxyl and 
methyl amphetamine. 

678
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:35,960
And, and he was looking at jail 
and he, he wasn't someone that 

679
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,160
needed to go to jail, but he, he
rang me one day after knowing 

680
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,960
that I was a was the uncovered 
cop that did it to him. 

681
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,280
And the phone came up and his 
name was up there. 

682
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,240
And I went on, no, he's going to
give me a spray here. 

683
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,360
They're like threatened me and 
all that sort of stuff. 

684
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,760
I thought, oh, get the other 
way, get the other way. 

685
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,120
Yeah. 
Anyway, he just said, Donnie, I 

686
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,640
can't go to jail. 
Can you tell my kids I love them

687
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:02,400
all. 
That's some shit. 

688
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:04,480
And I said, man, man, what are 
you doing? 

689
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,360
What are you doing? 
And he goes, I'm just on the 

690
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,920
Cliff near Fortitude Valley, New
Farm. 

691
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,560
I'm jumping, I'm out. 
I said, where are you exactly? 

692
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,200
I'll be there in 10 minutes. 
Rice diver. 

693
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,920
And this was part of the 
attitude that I had been going 

694
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,080
through for the past year and a 
half was I was on a death wish. 

695
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,600
I, I was walking through doors 
that I shouldn't walk through. 

696
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:29,800
But I didn't really give a shit 
what happened to me because I 

697
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,200
was still grieving. 
I was too scared to kill myself,

698
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,760
but I was hoping that it 
happened in the line of duty. 

699
00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:43,400
Yeah. 
That's so my, my reckless sort 

700
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,920
of behaviour at the time was he 
was standing, you know, tears 

701
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,680
coming down his face and grabbed
his arm and I said, OK, well 

702
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,560
let's do it 123, let's go. 
And I'll try to push him and, 

703
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:56,840
and he goes, oh, hey, hey, what 
are you doing? 

704
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,560
I said, I thought you wanted to 
kill yourself. 

705
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,400
I'll do it with you, come on. 
And he goes, what, what, what, 

706
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,240
what are you talking about? 
I said, why else would you ring 

707
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:07,840
me? 
You knew that I wanted to 

708
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,880
fucking go as well. 
Like we we can find it and show 

709
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,880
it all those things over like 6 
months. 

710
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,600
And I said, Dad, you put fucking
let's go, let's do it. 

711
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,240
And it was very much lethal 
weapon like when I think about 

712
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:24,520
it later. 
And he yeah, he dragged me back 

713
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:29,560
and we've because I was gone and
dragged me back and we fell on 

714
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,720
the floor on the on the grass 
prime. 

715
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,240
We sat on this park bench for 
another 3 hours talking about 

716
00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:40,160
how much he'd miss his kids and 
his wife, his ex-wife and all 

717
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:41,760
that because he wanted to try 
and get back with her. 

718
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,160
And I, I think that was a 
lightweight moment for me where 

719
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:51,080
I went back home that night to 
my safe house by myself. 

720
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,560
And I just went, what am I 
doing? 

721
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,600
Why am I behaving like this? 
Because I was hoping that was 

722
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,840
going to happen because of the 
pain that I had. 

723
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,520
And I went do I want to do I 
want to do, I want to do that to

724
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,600
my parents and my, my brothers 
and my sisters and my family 

725
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:08,920
members and. 
Yeah. 

726
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,000
I hadn't really given much 
thought about a product. 

727
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,360
I was just, I was just on a 
mission. 

728
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,680
I was on a death wish where I 
was just going through doors 

729
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,480
where all I did was open doors 
for me again. 

730
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,240
And then I was bringing down the
the I was bringing down the, you

731
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,240
know, the head honchos that the 
police hadn't got for ages. 

732
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:29,320
And I was getting all these 
slaps on the back. 

733
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,320
And but I'd go, I don't want 
that award. 

734
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,120
I don't give a shit about that. 
That's not mine yet. 

735
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:41,000
And so that was a real big 
turning point for me where I 

736
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,520
went, OK, I got to stop this 
shit, man. 

737
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,120
I got to stop it. 
I really do. 

738
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,840
Like you can't just essentially 
I was just walking out into a, 

739
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,520
you know, a busy hallway without
even looking at the cars. 

740
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,120
That's that's how what I was 
doing. 

741
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,640
Just reckless, abandoned and you
know that that zombie like 

742
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,880
behavior. 
You need a cold shower. 

743
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,080
Sometimes you need a wake up 
call and it sounds like it 

744
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,640
sounds like it. 
It sounds like it it it was. 

745
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,520
Do you know where he is today? 
No, I don't. 

746
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,720
No, no. 
I, I, I, I'm super curious about

747
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:23,040
the idea of you, you know, 
releasing this book. 

748
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:24,880
And, and I mean, you know, 
Australia's a big place, but 

749
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,040
it's also a small place. 
You know, when you look at the 

750
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,240
population and, and things like 
that and, and, and you got to 

751
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:35,720
wonder if, if, if you know, in 
the time after you've released 

752
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:37,720
this and, and you've talked 
about some of the things that 

753
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:40,040
you've, you've been through and 
you've felt and you've learned 

754
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:41,400
certainly the things that you've
learned. 

755
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,920
If ever anybody from your past 
will ever see it, hear it. 

756
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,640
And that that's a very, that's a
very interesting idea as well. 

757
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,080
It'd be interesting to see if if
anybody ever makes the the 

758
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,560
connections. 
Yeah, well, every every time is 

759
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,680
changed and it's only. 
Your name wasn't Donnie Wilson 

760
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,680
was the name though, right? 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

761
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,040
Yeah, what I'm just saying, 
Doctor Wilson's a charismatic 

762
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:06,600
guy. 
That that that that got to know 

763
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,960
a whole bunch of people and 
networked and and whatnot. 

764
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,640
And and you got to think, I 
wonder if anybody out there 

765
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,720
would yes to their names are 
changed for the book. 

766
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:16,200
I get that. 
But I'm more thinking about the 

767
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,280
human connection of of of that 
because that alone could be a 

768
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,240
wake up call for them 
potentially. 

769
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:26,080
Yeah, I'm sort of pretty happy 
to think that most of the people

770
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:27,320
that I've dealt with couldn't 
read. 

771
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,840
All right, fair enough. 
Well, wherever that guy is 

772
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,080
today, because as far as you 
know, he's still around, right? 

773
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:46,080
As. 
Far as, as far as you know, and 

774
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,760
so wherever that guy is today, 
well, and that's the thing, you 

775
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,040
know, like, like, like, like 
right now, we're just going to 

776
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:53,560
hey, throw it out to the 
universe and say, hey, we wish 

777
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,280
that guy well, hope he's doing 
well, Hope he's gotten his, you 

778
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,600
know, his version of, of, of the
insights that you've gotten. 

779
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,240
And, and, and we throw that out 
there. 

780
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,640
So, so that was the first wake 
up call. 

781
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,480
But at this point you're 
entrenched and you're staying 

782
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:09,920
there and you're getting claps 
on the back. 

783
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,280
And so there's confusion going 
on 'cause you're, you're making 

784
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,520
headway. 
I can, I can imagine that they 

785
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,680
wouldn't be very happy if you 
decided to pull full stop on 

786
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,440
things. 
How much longer did things go at

787
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:21,920
this point? 
You're, you're, you're kind of 

788
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,200
awake and aware about things now
and looking at things a little 

789
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:26,760
bit differently. 
You're not as reckless, you're 

790
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,400
not as on autopilot anymore. 
At what point did things start 

791
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,520
to to change? 
Like did the healing begin then 

792
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,280
or did you have to get out 
before healing began? 

793
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,720
Yeah, I think it wasn't till I 
definitely got out until I 

794
00:44:39,720 --> 00:44:41,760
started healing. 
Yeah, I think. 

795
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,000
And it took me a long time. 
It took me many, many years. 

796
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,840
Yeah. 
I write a a chapter in the book 

797
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:53,080
about beige couches where I 
hated sitting on the on the 

798
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:57,560
couches telling psychologists or
counsellors my story. 

799
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:01,200
And I just felt it didn't work 
for me. 

800
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,080
So your mind talk therapy wasn't
connecting for you? 

801
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,640
No, no, I noticed that you know 
one I always seemed to be on the

802
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:16,440
on the on the clock and and I 
thought, you know, for an hour, 

803
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,680
an hour session, it took me 
usually 45 minutes to open up 

804
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,920
and then before you know it, 
time up. 

805
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:30,160
See you in two weeks. 
To me, it just sometimes I've 

806
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:31,440
got some really good stuff out 
of it. 

807
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,760
Other times I sort of went, I 
don't understand, like this 

808
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,320
still doesn't bring Karen back. 
That was my theory at the time. 

809
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:43,080
Oh, like nothing, no one here 
can help me because, yeah. 

810
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,560
And then I'll sort of say, OK, 
well, I'd sort of grill in and 

811
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:51,720
say what traumatic things have 
happened to you and nothing. 

812
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:54,760
They just went to uni and did a 
really good degree and and a 

813
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,720
very successful what they do and
they understand a lot. 

814
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:04,600
Yeah, but I but I say it's like 
a male telling a female what 

815
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,040
childbirth is like. 
Yeah, it's impossible. 

816
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,280
Unless you've been through that,
that severe trauma, it's 

817
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:15,040
impossible to give give any 
advice in my books. 

818
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,640
So let's throw it to the other 
side then. 

819
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,840
Like, have you since met people 
who have experienced similar 

820
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,720
things? 
And because of that commonality,

821
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,440
you know, it's a little bit more
effective. 

822
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:30,320
Exactly. 
Yeah. 

823
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,680
And one thing I've noticed, 
obviously this happened in 2000.

824
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:36,800
Back then, there was no 
Internet. 

825
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:42,040
There was no podcast, there was 
no social media. 

826
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,600
There's no Google. 
The only thing that you learned 

827
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:49,840
was by going to one of these 
people or if a friend of yours, 

828
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,640
their dad and mum had an 
encyclopedia library done or, or

829
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,640
you went to the library and odd 
didn't do anything. 

830
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:04,840
So I've noticed that since the 
advent of social media, I know 

831
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,680
there's lots of negatives, but 
the positive parts of social 

832
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:13,880
media of when I started 
listening to certain Instagram 

833
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:18,200
things or Facebook or whatever 
about mental health and some of 

834
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,760
the, you know, the anecdotal 
stories that people were saying 

835
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,880
was like, wow, that's how I've 
been feeling. 

836
00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:30,280
And for a long time, I felt so 
isolated thinking that it was 

837
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,280
just me thinking that because 
none of my friends had been any 

838
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:39,360
been through this type thing. 
And I, I felt like I couldn't 

839
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,760
explain it to, to anyone. 
And I was listening to these 

840
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,720
sort of things and I've sort of 
dealt deeper and deeper into it 

841
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,880
over the last couple of years 
and, and everything resonates 

842
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,280
with me and I go thank Christ. 
Thank Christ. 

843
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:57,160
It makes you feel better. 
Yeah, the, the idea of you are 

844
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,160
not alone other than the work, 
like the words are one thing. 

845
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:02,160
OK, fine. 
You're not alone. 

846
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:03,080
You're not alone. 
You're not alone. 

847
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,280
But like that actual feeling 
that gets into your, to your 

848
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,440
core being where you're seen and
heard, that person's seen and 

849
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,000
heard and you realize, oh, I'm 
not alone. 

850
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,720
And this person actually 
understands and gets and, and I 

851
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:19,720
can understand and get them. 
And what you're talking about is

852
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:21,280
connection. 
I mean, the whole reason he 

853
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,440
changed it exists as a platform 
there. 

854
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,160
You know, you know, my wife and 
her team are, they're trying to 

855
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,080
change the world with with, with
he changed it. 

856
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,680
And you're, you're, you're 
talking about the silver bullet.

857
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,200
The silver bullet is connection.
You know, the idea that a guy 

858
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,200
can come in and take something 
that he needs and leave 

859
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,560
something that he knows. 
Well, imagine if guys to scale 

860
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,920
are doing that. 
And, and you know, that's, 

861
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:45,560
that's exactly what you're 
talking about here. 

862
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,360
Because at the end of the day, 
like I, I see you right now and 

863
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,840
it's like, OK, here's a guy who 
wants to help people who are 

864
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,880
going through something similar 
to what he went through. 

865
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:56,400
I see that it's pouring out of 
you. 

866
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,800
That's why you wrote the book. 
Like, I mean, you know, you're, 

867
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,000
you're, you're, you're talking 
about really, really tough 

868
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,720
things, Not because it's fun to 
talk about it, not because there

869
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:06,200
were stories. 
No, you, I mean you, you talk 

870
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,680
about this with Karen And and if
there's a guy who hears this, 

871
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,800
has gone through something 
similar, can see that there's 

872
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,120
light on the other their side, 
if they're not further along the

873
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,640
path that you know that then 
where you are. 

874
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,960
And, and and so I think that 
that is the silver bullet is 

875
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,280
connection and and and and being
seen and heard. 

876
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,640
Is it? 
Is there structure to it? 

877
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,120
Have you been to men's groups? 
Have you been to things Do you 

878
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,320
like to do? 
Do you like to do public 

879
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,240
speaking about this stuff? 
You're obviously very, very good

880
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:38,560
at it. 
You know, you've got your story 

881
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:40,280
down. 
The book is here. 

882
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,640
It's a, it's a, it's a wonderful
platform for that. 

883
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,800
Is that therapeutic because 
you're able to talk about it and

884
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,360
you're just getting it out more?
Yeah, I'm definitely doing all 

885
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,080
of those things and just just 
beginning in a, in a public 

886
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:58,000
speaking environment. 
So I, yeah, I definitely want to

887
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:04,520
explore that. 
I don't, I try not to sort of 

888
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,200
make out that I'm an expert. 
Yeah, I'm not a health 

889
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,520
professional. 
I'm not going to fix anyone or 

890
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,560
whatever, but I just want to get
my story out there and just 

891
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,840
resonate with people and, and 
make it a conversation starter. 

892
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:25,800
My, my, my story. 
I know it sounds wonderful and 

893
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,680
all that sort of stuff, but 
everyone goes, everyone will go 

894
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:30,120
through a bad part in their 
life. 

895
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,360
Just different people have it at
different times and, and at 

896
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,960
different levels. 
And I know that 10 years ago I 

897
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,160
couldn't have done this. 
And I think it's maybe my 

898
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,160
maturity and just the passage of
time. 

899
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:51,600
But I, I couldn't even say her 
name 10 years ago without 

900
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:56,160
crying. 
But now I'm, and I sort of just 

901
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,320
pushed it all out. 
And I used to worry about what 

902
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,280
people would think about me if 
they thought I was weak or 

903
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,320
whatever. 
And it's maturity. 

904
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,640
I think it's turning 50. 
I think it's just whatever where

905
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,720
I go, I really don't care what 
people think and if and if some 

906
00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:14,960
tough bloke thinks that I'm wait
for doing this. 

907
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,120
You are the one that has the 
problem my friend. 

908
00:51:17,720 --> 00:51:20,840
Yeah, well, I mean, it shows 
right there if they if they 

909
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:25,120
think, if they can't do it, 
who's tougher, right? 

910
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,520
And, and, and so, you know, 
that's that, that's the proof 

911
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,760
right there. 
And, and, and that's the stigma,

912
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,360
but the connection that you're 
talking about. 

913
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,000
And when you do connect that 
that erases the stigma because 

914
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,920
it shows that we're not alone. 
And, and that's a huge, that, 

915
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,080
that that's a huge concept to to
understand. 

916
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:46,600
It's very easy to say, very hard
to believe for people who are 

917
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,080
actually in the situation, 
because it does feel that way. 

918
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,520
And I, I, I'm really grateful 
that you're, you're, you're, 

919
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,080
you're, you're, you're, you're 
finding the way to hack through 

920
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:58,960
this and, and, and find your way
to the other side. 

921
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,040
I want to talk clinically for a 
second. 

922
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,080
Were you officially die? 
Like, I know PTSD is a huge, you

923
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:07,560
know, it's a buzzword these 
days. 

924
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,000
You know, I think about kids in,
in their 20s and they're talking

925
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,120
about the trauma that they're 
experiencing. 

926
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:16,960
And I mean, it's sort of a Co 
opted word, but it's also a real

927
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:18,240
thing. 
PTSD is a real thing. 

928
00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:22,160
It's a diagnosed condition. 
Going through what you've gone 

929
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,520
through, what were you 
officially diagnosed with? 

930
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,240
Yeah, it was the complex PTSD 
Complex. 

931
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,200
PTSD. 
Obviously starting from Cannes 

932
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:36,200
and then having numerous, you 
know, being involving, can't 

933
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,440
even remember how many, how many
very dangerous situations where 

934
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:41,640
by rights I should have been 
dead. 

935
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:49,360
So, but I also, what I talk 
about in my book is playing 

936
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:53,400
rugby league for all of my life 
and coaching and, and being 

937
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,520
involved is that, you know, I 
had a serious knee injury. 

938
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:59,600
Oh yeah. 
I got a plate in my, in my arm 

939
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:02,600
because I tackled the Blake's 
head and that's a lot harder 

940
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:07,400
than the arm. 
And, and then I, I fractured the

941
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:11,920
eye socket and I lost half, half
my side out of my left eye. 

942
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:18,880
And I likened the the trauma to 
my brain as no different to a 

943
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:20,880
rugby league injury. 
Yeah. 

944
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:21,960
My knee. 
Yeah. 

945
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:27,440
I'm, I'm never going to be as, 
as as fast as a runner I ever 

946
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:28,920
used to because it's not the 
same. 

947
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:34,360
My eye still sees half and I 
still, I see double when I look 

948
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:35,880
out of the peripheral. 
Yeah. 

949
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,000
But what I worked out when I was
playing footy is that it was 2 

950
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,040
balls coming at me. 
I'd always catch the bottom off.

951
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:42,080
So. 
Oh my. 

952
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,240
God, and that's how you lived 
life. 

953
00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:47,080
That just became your norm at 
that point. 

954
00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:49,040
Exactly. 
You just get used to stuff and, 

955
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:53,560
and, and the way that I looked 
at it is the brain has an 

956
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,760
injury, which was through no 
fault of my own either. 

957
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:03,880
And if you manage it well, I 
could still live a normal life 

958
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:07,080
the same as I can with my knee 
and my eye and my arm. 

959
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,280
And they shouldn't be looked 
upon as anything different. 

960
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,080
Just because it's your brain has
copped an injury through 

961
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:17,240
something that you experienced 
right, it's not going to it 

962
00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:22,200
doesn't ruin your life. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

963
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,800
That's and, and I mean, if 
there's a, if there's a theme 

964
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:29,600
going through this amazing 
conversation that we're having 

965
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,400
today, that's, that's, that's 
kind of it right there. 

966
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,880
You know, there is more to life 
than the difficulty that you are

967
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:41,160
experiencing at that moment, 
even if that difficulty is 

968
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:45,480
something extreme and and 
traumatic. 

969
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,720
You can get better. 
And, and, and this is where I 

970
00:54:48,720 --> 00:54:51,000
think your story is just so 
powerful because yeah, I, I, I, 

971
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:56,600
I like, I like hearing a 
phenomenal charismatic expert on

972
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:58,480
a subject more as much as the 
next guy. 

973
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,280
It's, it's, it's great. 
But but people's stories and, 

974
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,520
and talking about what they've 
learned with no outcome except 

975
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:09,800
to just express their story and 
say what they learned, that 

976
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,680
leaves it up to the viewer or 
the listener to then apply some 

977
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:15,720
of these things to the situation
that they're going through. 

978
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:17,440
And it gives perspective. 
It gives depth. 

979
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:20,600
Despite your depth perception 
issues, it gives depth. 

980
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:27,760
And you know, and, and, and so 
I'm super curious about the 

981
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:31,920
reaction to when people hear 
your story to when people have 

982
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,840
read your book. 
I, I'm super curious about what 

983
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:39,280
people have come up to you and 
said, I can imagine that a lot 

984
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,760
of people have come to you and 
they have spilled their guts 

985
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,560
about their story and, and, and,
and and whatnot. 

986
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:48,240
And I'm I'm curious if there are
any patterns because you're the 

987
00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:51,520
receiver of these things and and
are is there a commonality to 

988
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,280
any of them? 
Yeah, it, it is. 

989
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,400
It's as I said before that I 
thought, you know, if I got any 

990
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:04,680
negative, you know, reactions in
terms of being a silk or, or or 

991
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,640
whatever, I actually haven't got
any. 

992
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:09,920
Everything's been positive. 
Everything is said. 

993
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,120
I'm so proud of you, brother. 
Yeah. 

994
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,640
And then next thing and I 
they're telling me about their 

995
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:17,920
story. 
And that's what I'm saying. 

996
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,360
It's a conversational starter. 
I think you need to be 

997
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,320
vulnerable to be connect with 
people. 

998
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,200
And I'm also civil. 
If someone's got to do it, I'll 

999
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,040
be that wonder to be the 
vulnerable person to start the 

1000
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:32,680
ball rolling. 
I I was lucky to have a, a 

1001
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:34,400
drink. 
I was having a beer at a surf 

1002
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:39,200
club recently and, and there was
a, an ex NRL player who's a bit 

1003
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:40,720
of a larrikin. 
He's a fun fella. 

1004
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:46,440
And you know, I was telling him 
about the book and within 5 or 

1005
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,960
10 minutes he was telling me 
about some, you know, some 

1006
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:51,880
hardship that he was going 
through his life as well. 

1007
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,400
And it was like wow, this is 
amazing, this is awesome. 

1008
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,360
And that would never have been 
brought up, you know, in an 

1009
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,240
environment like that with their
me telling my story first. 

1010
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,480
You're, you're literally giving 
a commercial for what he 

1011
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:07,480
changed. 
It is all about. 

1012
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:09,640
That's exactly it. 
We're trying to take that. 

1013
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,000
We're trying to take what you 
just said and turn it into 

1014
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,440
something that any guy can pick 
up a phone. 

1015
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,320
Where this came from too is 
when, when my wife and her team 

1016
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:21,720
were doing the research about 
men in particular and what you 

1017
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:23,760
know, the particular like, like,
you know, going through some of 

1018
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,680
the stats and things like that. 
One of the, one of the places 

1019
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:28,720
that they ended up was a guy who
was very high up in the Canadian

1020
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:32,480
military on the administrative 
side, but he's also, you know, 

1021
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,600
seeing stuff, but he's like, 
he's an orchestrator. 

1022
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:37,520
He's, he's in that role. 
And he was talking about the, 

1023
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,960
you know, the suicide numbers 
and, and, and whatnot. 

1024
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,920
And he, one of the remarks, the 
offhand remarks he said is 

1025
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:46,760
everything and every single one 
of them dies with the phone in 

1026
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,400
their pocket. 
And, and, and, and that's where 

1027
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,120
the power comes in. 
It's like, OK, well, how can we 

1028
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,920
take that phone and, and, and 
put something on there that 

1029
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,800
every guy could have an 
opportunity to experience 

1030
00:57:57,800 --> 00:57:59,480
exactly what you're talking 
about? 

1031
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:04,320
You know, and, and I, I 
appreciate your message very, 

1032
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,200
very much. 
It's just encouraging for what 

1033
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:08,000
he changed. 
It is all about, you know, these

1034
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,800
stories you talk about how you 
haven't had any negative 

1035
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:13,720
backlash. 
And I appreciate that very, very

1036
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,320
much because there's a part of 
me and we started the 

1037
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,480
conversation talking about the 
community that's in law 

1038
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:22,240
enforcement or, or protection 
or, you know, these this 

1039
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:27,880
brotherhood that's there was 
any, has anybody read the book 

1040
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,520
and said, Hey, you know, you're,
you're putting some stuff out 

1041
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,520
there to, you know, kind of talk
about the behind the scenes that

1042
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:36,480
of things that we should do was 
has there been a negative 

1043
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:38,480
reaction that way or, or is it 
the other way? 

1044
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,840
Where are you using this as an 
opportunity to talk to folks 

1045
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:47,920
within enforcement to maybe help
them seek help so they don't get

1046
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:50,320
to the place that you did, that 
reckless place? 

1047
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:53,400
Yeah, yeah. 
And it's not, it's not just in 

1048
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:55,200
law enforcement. 
It's it's across the board. 

1049
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,400
I haven't had any negativity. 
If if it is, they've kept it to 

1050
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,840
themselves, which I'm fine with 
that I have. 

1051
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,640
Of course, yeah. 
It got to the stage where I was 

1052
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:10,760
getting, but not only the the 
story, but the way that I'd 

1053
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:15,040
written it and people would. 
The main thing I'm getting is 

1054
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,280
that I could not put it down. 
I haven't, I haven't read a book

1055
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,880
in 20 years and I read it in two
settings. 

1056
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:26,920
I could not put it down and that
seems to be what is coming out 

1057
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:31,000
which and then other people are 
saying who really wrote it for 

1058
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:31,560
you? 
Come on. 

1059
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,440
Oh, there we go. 
And I went, oh, serious, it was 

1060
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:40,240
me because other people say I 
can actually see you talking 

1061
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:47,000
when I'm reading it. 
So I and I, yeah, I'm getting 

1062
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,680
some excellent feedback, which I
love because I've never been a 

1063
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:52,280
writer. 
I've never been caught at it. 

1064
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:58,240
And because I, because I, I 
basically wrote it about six 

1065
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:00,920
weeks. 
I didn't stop once I started. 

1066
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:04,120
And it was so therapeutical. 
I loved every minute. 

1067
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:05,720
I couldn't wait to get back to 
do it. 

1068
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:07,920
I'd start at 6:00 in the 
morning, I'd be finishing at 

1069
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,480
8:00 at night, and I just 
wouldn't even know where the 

1070
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:14,320
time has gone. 
And yeah, I didn't know how to 

1071
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,680
start. 
I knew where I knew where to 

1072
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,000
start. 
Like I knew I had a story, but I

1073
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:23,120
didn't know how do I start Once 
Upon a time like I I just 

1074
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:24,400
didn't. 
Yep. 

1075
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:30,000
So I just did a microphone and 
that microphone Word document 

1076
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:34,080
thing and started talking and 
after about 3 pages I read it 

1077
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:38,960
back and went oh OK yeah that 
works so. 

1078
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,560
I was going to ask you, you 
alluded to it and so this is one

1079
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:43,840
of the questions that I had for 
you. 

1080
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:49,320
The, I mean, clearly you healed 
a lot and I mean you, you 

1081
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:52,960
alluded to, to some of the 
markers that that that started 

1082
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:56,040
that healing journey. 
Was there anything more healing 

1083
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,400
than writing the book? 
It was probably the best thing 

1084
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,600
that's ever happened. 
The healing that I've had over 

1085
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:08,560
the last 20 something years has 
been certainly hasn't been 

1086
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,200
pretty. 
It hasn't been easy. 

1087
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,440
There's been a lot of where you 
think you've made ground, 

1088
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:20,480
You've, you fall again, you get 
back up again, you fall again, 

1089
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:25,360
you get back up and it's 
there's, there's, there's one 

1090
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:31,120
thing that I, I talk about where
I, I lost my mum two years ago 

1091
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:36,920
and, and she passed away and my,
my, that was the next person 

1092
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:42,200
since, since basically Karen 
died, someone of my immediate 

1093
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:44,240
family that had passed away. 
Yeah. 

1094
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:49,480
And I was really aware. 
Am I going to go down the same 

1095
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:53,080
right is what I did when I lost 
Karen. 

1096
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,040
Was I going to be reckless? 
Was I going to turn to the 

1097
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:58,600
bottle or was I going to do all 
these things? 

1098
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:04,640
And I remember thinking to 
myself, if mum's watching, would

1099
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:07,360
she be proud of how I'm dealing 
with your death? 

1100
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:10,120
And. 
There you go. 

1101
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:12,760
And I said, OK, I'm going to 
make a prayer. 

1102
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,400
I'm not going to go down that 
track because she was very 

1103
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:18,960
worried about me when I'd lost 
Karen. 

1104
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:23,600
And then similarly I, I thought 
to myself, OK, well it kind of 

1105
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,320
been watching me over the last 
whatever, 20 years or especially

1106
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,440
the first five years afterwards.
I'm pretty sure she wouldn't be 

1107
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:32,240
too proud of me the way that I 
dealt with myself. 

1108
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:39,040
So that was a motivator for me. 
Yeah, I sure get that. 

1109
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,720
I hate that this went as fast as
it did. 

1110
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:45,280
I knew, as we said before we hit
record, this is going to go by 

1111
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:48,160
real fast. 
I I'm gonna finish with the 

1112
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:49,800
cliche. 
And it's a cliche. 

1113
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,920
I'm sorry. 
If if if you know, I love, I 

1114
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,440
love being the guy that asks 
different questions and things 

1115
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,000
like that. 
I love the guy that being the 

1116
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:59,400
that guy. 
But I'm sorry, the story is just

1117
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,480
so powerful and so fun. 
OK, before I ask this question, 

1118
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:03,800
OK, where can people get the 
book? 

1119
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:06,240
Like, so. 
OK Donnie, an undercover cop 

1120
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,240
with a death wish. 
That's the title of the book. 

1121
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:10,480
Is it on Amazon? 
Is it? 

1122
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,480
Is it a one? 
Wise deal on all your on all 

1123
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:19,840
your ones overseas in Australia.
I I do have a website and and I 

1124
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:20,720
personally. 
Audio as well? 

1125
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:25,360
Did you say audio? 
The Amazon audio and. 

1126
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:27,080
There's no audio book though. 
Yeah, there's. 

1127
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:29,240
No audio book. 
I'm still working on that right 

1128
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:32,000
now, so. 
OK, can I please make a 

1129
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:35,280
recommendation if you can, if 
you can make it work, please 

1130
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:38,280
read it yourself. 
I, I, I honestly think, like you

1131
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,960
said, you said you, you know, 
it's your voice and I, I 

1132
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:44,320
honestly think you've got, 
you've got a commanding voice. 

1133
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:47,200
People are always, of course, on
this side of the, of the world, 

1134
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:48,880
a sucker for an Australian 
accent and whatnot. 

1135
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:50,880
I think, oh, if you could, if 
you could do it where you read 

1136
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:52,520
the book yourself, that would be
phenomenal. 

1137
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:55,760
You can find on Amazon Todd 
McGuire, Donnie, an undercover 

1138
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:58,520
cop with a death wish. 
So here's the here comes the 

1139
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:00,520
cliche and here's how we got to 
finish it today. 

1140
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:02,920
But I want you to come back, 
especially like, you know, when 

1141
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:06,200
you get some more perspective 
after the, you know, I would 

1142
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:08,080
love to have you back and to 
hear your story and the 

1143
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,520
continuation of where you're at 
because we are again, you know, 

1144
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,200
a cliche word all on a journey. 
But but as you go down further, 

1145
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:19,440
further down the path, I would 
certainly, certainly love to 

1146
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:21,320
hear more of the things that 
you've learned because you're 

1147
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:23,840
probably in the in you're 
probably the best sponge for 

1148
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:25,640
learning right now than you've 
ever been. 

1149
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:27,800
And the people that you're going
to talk to are going to teach 

1150
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:31,600
you so much good, good stuff. 
Don It's also talk to Donnie. 

1151
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:32,880
Different people. 
Too. 

1152
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:37,400
Yeah, yes, exactly, Exactly. 
So that being said, let's go to 

1153
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:39,880
the cliche. 
What's the biggest similarity 

1154
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,080
between Todd McGuire and Donnie 
Wilson? 

1155
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:44,560
And what's the biggest 
difference between Todd McGuire 

1156
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:47,640
and Donnie Wilson? 
They're totally different 

1157
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,440
people. 
Completely, OK, completely 

1158
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:58,160
completely different people. 
I and and my wife now we use the

1159
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:04,920
analogy of Donnie is my PTSD and
when when she sees or when I can

1160
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:09,240
feel that Donnie is creeping 
back in a bit, we become aware 

1161
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:13,120
of it and we put things into 
place to make sure that Donnie 

1162
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:18,760
stays in the closet. 
I can't think of a better place 

1163
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:22,240
to end right there because we 
all have a Donnie inside of us. 

1164
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:26,920
When you, when you frame it that
way taught, we all have that, 

1165
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,640
you know, you know, counselors 
or or might call it the shadow 

1166
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:32,880
self. 
We you know that the part of us 

1167
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:33,600
that. 
Yeah. 

1168
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:36,360
And when it starts to creep out 
the awareness is everything. 

1169
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:40,320
And you're clearly, clearly 
very, very hyper aware of these 

1170
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:42,120
things. 
I just want to say thank you. 

1171
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:44,560
First off, whenever I have 
somebody who was in the service 

1172
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:47,720
of any kind come on here, I say 
thank you for your service. 

1173
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:52,000
Thank you for for trying to make
this world a better place as you

1174
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,520
know, as you did at the time, 
you know, you know, and we 

1175
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:57,160
could. 
I can't wait for you to come 

1176
01:05:57,160 --> 01:05:59,680
back on and we will have more of
a discussion on the morality of 

1177
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:01,840
certain drugs and things like 
that, things you learned along 

1178
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:03,480
the way. 
But at the end of the day, 

1179
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:07,640
always trying to do good, 
wanting that that was the 

1180
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:09,480
intention. 
And anybody who serves, I say 

1181
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:11,280
thank you very, very, very much 
for your service. 

1182
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:15,320
So thank you for that. 
But the, the, the bigger thanks 

1183
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,400
comes for the fact that, man, 
when you go through something, 

1184
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,880
when, when a guy goes through 
something and, and, and they 

1185
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:25,440
don't stay quiet about it, but 
they actually are able to deal 

1186
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:27,840
with it and then use it to help 
other guys. 

1187
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:29,720
Well, that's what's going to 
make the world a better place. 

1188
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:31,920
And you are a light in this 
world, Todd. 

1189
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:34,080
You really are. 
And I just want to say thank you

1190
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:40,040
so much for the vulnerability, 
big, tough rugby cop, undercover

1191
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:41,560
guy that's gone through all 
these things. 

1192
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:43,320
And guess what? 
You can talk about your 

1193
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:45,760
feelings, you can talk about 
some of the experiences. 

1194
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:50,600
That's the real strength coming 
from a really strong guy. 

1195
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:53,800
Thank you so much for taking 
time out of your day to come on 

1196
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:55,440
to he cast and he changed it, 
man. 

1197
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:59,360
I really, really appreciate it. 
We're trying to change the world

1198
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,880
and it's it's because of guys 
like you that we have the 

1199
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:05,120
ingredients to do it. 
So thank you so much man. 

1200
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:07,760
You're a legend, man Thank you. 
Thanks for being. 

1201
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:11,200
Thanks for having me on. 
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. 

1202
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:12,840
I'll do a quick outro and then 
we can say our goodbye 

1203
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:14,000
privately. 
Everybody. 

1204
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:16,800
This is why we do the show. 
This is exactly why we do the 

1205
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:18,640
show. 
This is why he he changed it 

1206
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:20,320
exists. 
You know, if you haven't 

1207
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:21,840
downloaded the app, what the 
heck are you waiting for? 

1208
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,920
Go to hechangedit.com. 
Take a look at the app. 

1209
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:27,680
Watch as it grows. 
Watch as we move this thing 

1210
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:30,000
towards wanting to make the 
world a better place. 

1211
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:34,000
This has been another episode of
he cast the official podcast of 

1212
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:35,920
he changed it. 
My name is Mike Chisholm. 

1213
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:37,320
Go change something.