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Welcome to Hecast, the official 
podcast of He Changed it. 

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As always, I am Mike Chisholm. 
As always, I am so excited to 

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have conversations around the 
world of men's mental Wellness. 

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We have all sorts of different 
types of guests on this show. 

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And, and, and, and some of my 
favorite are the ones where, you

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know, yes, there are clinical 
people that come on the show and

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we, we, we talk about clinical 
things when it comes to mental 

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health and, and, and the 
perspective from the, the, the 

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man side of things. 
But sometimes we have people on 

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here where they come and they 
tell their story. 

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Now this is one of the most 
special episodes that we've ever

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done. 2 hours. 
Holy cow, Mike, what's going on?

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Yeah, I love the long form, but 
I understand we try and shoot 

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for 45 to an hour. 
I get it. 

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This one here, everybody who is 
watching and listening, this is 

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a tale. 
I got to tell you the story 

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here, there is no embellishment.
I mean, we go watch movies that 

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are based on true events and 
things like that. 

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And the idea that the writers, 
the talented writers out there 

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will embellish stories and, and,
and make the story that much 

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better. 
This one here needs no 

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embellishment whatsoever. 
Dave Muller is my guest of 

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wonderful South African man and,
and, and we really scratch the 

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surface of a story that is so 
vibrant and rich that that that 

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I don't believe a writer could 
necessarily even even I I don't 

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think you could write this. 
And he wrote a book based on 

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what happened to him and his 
family. 

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I'm going to tell you this. 
Everybody's happy. 

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Everybody has made it through. 
It's a happy ending. 

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OK, I'm going to tell you that 
straight up because as you're 

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listening to the story of what 
happened when his family found 

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themselves marooned on 
Mozambique and they were 

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approached by a small regiment 
of an army of, of child 

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soldiers. 
What happened? 

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And seven weeks they were they 
were there and, and, and 

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captured and, and, and being 
held. 

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And there's some horrific stuff 
in this, but we keep it talking 

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about some horrific things. 
We do keep it PG13. 

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It's not a it's not a radar. 
We don't go into it. 

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We don't, we don't, we don't, we
certainly don't, you know, take 

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some of the hard things that, 
that, that, that Dave and his 

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family saw and, and, and make it
a focal point. 

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We don't. 
It is a story of resilience. 

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It is an unbelievable story of, 
of, of there are no coincidences

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in life and the perspective that
it will bring all of us who hear

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this about the things that we 
have going on in our lives, it 

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will give pause because my word,
some of the things that somebody

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can survive. 
He wrote a book called not 

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Child's Play. 
And I mean, you know, when 

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you're held by an army of 
children, you know, where the, 

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the oldest one there, you know, 
might be 20/21/22. 

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There might be a 30 year old 
there, but the vast majority our

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our children with AK-40 sevens 
and what not. 

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And again, I'm not, I'm not 
trying to sensationalize this. 

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It is a heck of a story and I'm 
going to stop the intro right 

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now. 
Dave, Dave Muller, thank you 

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very much for coming on here and
telling your story. 

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We're going to have you come 
back and talk about the things 

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that have you've experienced 
since then. 

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But I just want to say thank you
very, very much not Child's Play

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is the website you can look for.
You can look for him as well. 

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Please enjoy this unbelievable 
story in which I was just in the

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front seat for, for the most 
part and by by Dave Muller. 

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Dave, I, I, man alive, I, I, 
sometimes I have somebody 

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sitting across the digital table
from me that I just, it gives me

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perspective on the life that I 
have lived here in North 

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America, here in, you know, 
Western Canada and, and, and, 

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and the things that I sometimes 
get wrapped up in thinking that 

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are problems. 
Boy, sometimes it just takes the

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perspective of, of, of, of some 
of the problems of other people 

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around the world to give pause 
to realize things aren't so bad,

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You know, for me, Dave, I just 
First off want to say welcome to

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he cast. 
And 2nd, I just want to say 

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thank you very much for giving 
the world really the story that 

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you went through. 
A lot of people would bury that 

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stuff and never ever talk about 
it. 

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You've gone and done the exactly
the opposite. 

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I want to get into the book, not
child's play. 

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I want to get into all of this 
stuff here. 

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But First off, I just want to 
say thank you for for your 

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vulnerability and thank you so 
much for joining us on he cast 

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today. 
That's my pleasure. 

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Thank you for having me. 
For those eagle eared or eagle 

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eyed people out there, they can 
hear, oh, this guy's got an 

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accent. 
Yeah. 

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And no, it's not Australian. 
No, it's not New Zealand. 

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No, it's not British, South 
African and from South Africa 

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and, and right there shows the 
international flavor and that, 

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that, that the story. 
We're not in Kansas anymore. 

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Everybody the story that's going
to be told is, is is is is a 

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remarkable 1. 
I don't want to just focus on 

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the story itself. 
I know that that's out there and

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there's a lot you've done lots 
of these, but I do want to talk 

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about the story a little bit. 
You went through what can only 

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be described as a situation that
movies are made of, about 

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inspired by the true events. 
You know, you went through 

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something and I, I want to get 
into it. 

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Could you please talk about how 
you ended up in South Africa as 

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a boy and, and, and, and the 
things that transpired that that

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that got you into sailing and 
the harrowing situation that 

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happened to you during that 
time? 

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Can we, can we, can we get to 
that place? 

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And then once we get to the 
place, the listener will 

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understand that's the place we 
want to get to. 

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And then we want to talk about 
what you did after that. 

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Is that, is that a good sum up? 
Is that a good sum up of things 

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right there? 
Yeah, yeah. 

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Well, I'll certainly try my 
best, you know, so it can be a 

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long story. 
I appreciate it. 

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Just cut me. 
Cut me short if I if I ramble 

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on, Yeah. 
Shall I? 

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Shall I begin at the beginning? 
How did you get to South Africa 

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and how old were you? 
Well. 

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No, I was I was born in South 
Africa, so I was I was born in 

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1951, which makes me a 70, 
nearly 75 year old. 

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I was born in Port Elizabeth, 
the city of Port Elizabeth. 

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Both my parents had had been 
involved in the Second World 

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War. 
My dad was a prisoner of war for

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two years and one of them on the
run in in Italy. 

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My mom was a Navy Wren. 
She she was from England. 

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So she actually, she actually 
witnessed the troops heading off

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to for the the D-Day invasion, 
literally saw that happening. 

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So she, she came to South 
Africa, I think it was in 1948, 

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probably, probably searching for
her husband and she found my dad

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and, and I was the result of 
that. 

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So I grew up in Port Elizabeth, 
went to school there, 

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miraculously, somehow or other 
ended up falling into 

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architecture. 
So I studied architecture, 

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became an architect. 
But one of the problems growing 

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up in South Africa was that, 
well, my parents were, were, 

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were, I suppose they would be 
considered liberal minded now 

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they were they, they, they were 
both would be classed as sort of

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blue collar workers. 
But I grew up in a very loving 

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family. 
But, but they certainly hadn't 

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had an issue with the sort of 
subplot that was going on in 

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South Africa at that time. 
So everybody knows about the 

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racism and apartheid, but there 
were still vestiges, believe it 

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or not, in the Anglo World War. 
If I could stop you there for 

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one second. 
Not everybody knows about 

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apartheid. 
You know, like you look at the 

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generation, like I remember 
growing up when I was in high 

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school, that's when Nelson 
Mandela was released from 

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prison. 
So growing up, I knew about, you

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know, I ain't going to play Sun 
City artists who would be 

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boycotting. 
And I knew that there was there 

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was activism around apartheid. 
But it's funny how things dilute

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as generations pass South Africa
in, in many respects, when you 

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look at the development that it 
had and, and, and, and all of 

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the good things that it had. 
When you look at apartheid and 

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what it was back then and, and 
the way of life that it became 

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and, and, and, and how 
polarizing it was really at the 

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end of the day, what a change 
that that that you have seen in 

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your lifetime there. 
And, and, and so your parents, 

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as you were growing up, were you
aware that there were 

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alternatives to apartheid around
the world and that it wasn't 

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necessarily the norm? 
Or was that the world you grew 

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up in, and because you grew up 
in it, that's all you knew? 

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No, very much. 
That was all I knew. 

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You know, that was the media was
very controlled. 

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I was aware of of the racial 
tensions because I grew up very,

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very close to where it all 
started and in the place called 

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New Brighton in Port Elizabeth. 
And I can remember the army 

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trucks rushing past and going to
to quill riots and things like 

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that. 
And in fact, we were even caught

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up in it once we're mobbed tried
to overturn our car. 

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But I think the to to sort of 
give a very, very brief 

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background and yeah, we've got 
to be careful not to to end up 

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in a in a history lesson. 
But in 1958 the the National 

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Party took over gained control 
of the government and that that 

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essentially was Afrikaans 
control, mainly made-up of 

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Afrikaans speakers. 
And my parents were both very 

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English. 
My mum was British. 

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My dad dad definitely affiliated
with the with with the British 

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as well. 
He fought in the war. 

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So I was aware they were very 
anti this whole apartheid thing,

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but more, it was more a case of 
the of, of a battle between 

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English speaking people and 
white and, and Afrikaans 

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speaking people. 
So it was, it was sort of like 

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stuck there within in the white,
in, in the white segment of the,

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of the, of the community. 
So yeah, I need to tell you, 

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just give you a little a very 
brief story. 

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In 1960, I was in grade, what 
would you call it, Grade 5, and 

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I had a teacher who was very 
Afrikaans orientated. 

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But the country held a 
referendum as to whether or not 

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we should should leave the 
union. 

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In other words, leave part of 
being of Britain and being under

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the control of the Queen and 
should become a Republic. 

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And I knew my parents were very,
very pro staying with the union,

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very anti the Republic. 
Anyway, the day after the 

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referendum, my, my teacher, he, 
he said to us, OK, all of you 

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whose parents voted for the 
Queen, stick up your hands and 

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stupidly and naively, a whole 
bunch of us did that. 

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And he said, right, come forward
and we were all made to bend 

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over and we got the the Union 
Jack emblazoned on our little 

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queen loving backsides for that,
you know, which is an incredibly

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brutal thing to have done. 
So that kind of so, so my issue 

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in those days was with, with 
more with Afrikaners, which, 

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which the way my life has 
developed is actually incredibly

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funny in retrospect. 
And that was made worse by the 

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fact that we were then South 
Africa was also embroiled in, in

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fighting a proxy war for the 
West between the West and, and 

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the East, basically between 
capitalism and socialism. 

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In that countries like Angola 
and Mozambique had been pretty 

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much taken over and run by the 
USSR. 

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And, and South Africa was drawn 
in by the West to actually fight

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on their behalf to stop that 
spread of, of the Russian 

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influence down South into South 
Africa. 

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So I was constricted into the 
army and I really, I, I, I 

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objected to that. 
So anyway, where this is 

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relevant to the, to the main 
story that we, we talking about 

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is that I just realized I had to
escape from this kind of crazy 

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madness that was developing. 
So one of the things that 

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happened when I was was very 
young was I was a Boy Scout and 

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our scout master, our scout 
master invited a man who just 

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sailed around the world in the 
yacht called Sandy Fjord to come

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and give us a talk. 
This would probably have been in

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about 1965 or so, I would guess.
So in those days, things like 

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sailing around the world were 
very exotic. 

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Nobody, not many people did 
that. 

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And and this man had also made a
film. 

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And this was the first time I 
sort of saw this outside world, 

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you know, this amazing world of,
of the Caribbean and the Panama 

223
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:12,680
Canal and the Marquis Islands. 
And I remember the the Hula hula

224
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:17,840
girls, the naked hula hula girls
dancing made a big impression on

225
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,960
me and the Great Barrier Reef in
Australia, you know, and I 

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00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,720
decided then that I wanted to 
build a yacht and sail around 

227
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,480
the world. 
It was literally was as simple 

228
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,240
as that. 
And and that literally is what I

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00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,840
actually did. 
So that that whole drive became 

230
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,160
reinforced by the need to escape
from the madness that was South 

231
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,320
Africa. 
How many years was it between 

232
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,080
that scout, that experience with
the Scouts, and before you set 

233
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:45,520
sail? 
How, how, how many years was 

234
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:52,240
that in between? 
It was you've got to, I've got 

235
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,080
to kind of quickly do the sum in
my head. 

236
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,960
So sure. 
How do we start sailing? 

237
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,040
Hey chick. 
So, so we started building, a 

238
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,600
friend and I started building 
our yacht in 1975. 

239
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:11,160
So well, that's 51 years ago, 
about 12 years after, after that

240
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,040
dream had been planted. 
And then we see 10 years 

241
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:23,000
actually building the yacht and 
it was launched in 1985 and 

242
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,920
that's it. 
That probably takes us up to the

243
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,760
real just to the story. 
Well, and, and, you know, the 

244
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:36,040
idea of wanting to escape the 
stuff that was out there, you 

245
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,800
know, 22 years later, you think 
about that like that's a, that's

246
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,760
a pretty remarkable thing, how 
you held on to that dream. 

247
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,720
And we're going to talk about 
hope a lot in this podcast 

248
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,560
today, You know, the hope of 
escaping the surroundings and, 

249
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,680
and, and finding a bigger world,
something that's a little bit 

250
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,720
more compatible with how you 
feel and, and, and, and, and it 

251
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,880
feels right with your soul. 
You know, imagine if you would 

252
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,240
have let go of that. 
And it's so great that you 

253
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,080
didn't. 
And you get to this place where 

254
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,040
the boat gets built and, and, 
and like I said, hey, kids, he's

255
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:08,480
exactly right. 
Dave's exactly right. 

256
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,000
Now is where the story gets 
crazy. 

257
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,760
And let's, let's, let's talk 
about that. 

258
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,520
So you start sailing. 
And how long were you sailing 

259
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,120
before the before the trouble 
happened? 

260
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:21,440
What? 
What I suppose what was going to

261
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,360
mention, of course, is that when
you're a young man, life is 

262
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,640
incredibly simple. 
So there's no, no complications 

263
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,360
of, of relationships with 
children or, or having to care 

264
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:34,840
for a family or anything like 
that. 

265
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,840
And but in the midst of all of 
this building the yacht bang, 

266
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,520
that thing happened. 
That happens to so many of us. 

267
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,720
We fall in love. 
And I met Sandy, who became my 

268
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,480
wife. 
So Sandy was a marine biologist 

269
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,280
and and you know, I know it's 
corny and all these sorts of 

270
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,080
things and you can have violence
playing in the background, but I

271
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,920
literally fell in love with it. 
I knew that. 

272
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,119
And here we are 46 years on, 
still married. 

273
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,760
So in so while while the yacht 
was being booked, the yacht's 

274
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:12,720
name was Owen, by the way, just 
to give it a name, our daughter 

275
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,400
was born Tammy. 
And then in 1985, the year we 

276
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,000
launched the yacht, our son Seth
was born. 

277
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,800
So that's just a bit of a, of a 
background. 

278
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,760
Excuse me. 
So between 1985 and 1990, we, we

279
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,080
did a, we had to learn to sail 
the yacht. 

280
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,600
So we did a whole lot of cruises
up and down the coast of South 

281
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,080
Africa. 
So this is not the easiest 

282
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:43,080
waters to learn to sail in. 
So Owen Owen was like a Jeep or 

283
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,800
Land Rover amongst yachts. 
That's the best way to describe 

284
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,840
it. 
Pretty indestructible vessel, 

285
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:51,960
very comfortable to sail in, but
very slow. 

286
00:17:52,960 --> 00:18:00,760
So come 1990, things had started
to change quite dramatically. 

287
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,880
The most critical things in the 
world were changing that. 

288
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:15,000
That began to impact our plans. 
So in 1989 the Berlin Wall fell.

289
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,160
Essentially the USSR collapsed. 
So this whole thing of this 

290
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,160
threat from, from the, the, the 
red danger, as it was termed, 

291
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,840
from Angola and Mozambique that 
to a large extent dissipated 

292
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:35,520
and, and, and, and critically in
1990, just before we set sail on

293
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,920
our I'll fated voyage to 
Mozambique, which is where we're

294
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,560
heading, Nelson Mandela was 
released to, to come back to 

295
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,600
your previous question, what did
I know when Nelson Mandela was 

296
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,640
released that day? 
That was the first time in my 

297
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,440
life I actually ever saw the 
man. 

298
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,400
I'd never even seen a picture of
him up until that point. 

299
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,320
And, and it was amazing. 
There was this lovely old 

300
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,720
grandpa who was walking out of 
prison. 

301
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,280
This is this terrible, terrible 
man that we'd imprisoned for so 

302
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,280
many years. 
So that that set a whole dynamic

303
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,480
going in the country where where
the purpose of building Irwin, 

304
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:14,320
which was to escape pretty much 
fell away and and it was to some

305
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,440
extent replaced with just simple
adventure. 

306
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:23,200
So in 1990, Sandy he was working
at the local museum at the time 

307
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:29,200
as a as an expert in mollusks. 
The fancy name is a is is a 

308
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,840
mallecologist. 
If you want to mallecologist. 

309
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,360
An expert in. 
Mollecs. 

310
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,480
OK, that's an expert in in 
mollusks. 

311
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,200
Yeah, that looks. 
Yeah, everybody knows that a 

312
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,760
oncologist collects shells. 
But. 

313
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,360
But actually mallecology was 
quite an an undeveloped science 

314
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,240
at the time because very few 
people had actually ever seen 

315
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,160
the animals that lived in the 
shells. 

316
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:53,720
So that's what she was studying 
too. 

317
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,200
Anyway, she heard that that 
there were some ecologists 

318
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,080
working at the Bazaroosa Islands
in Mozambique. 

319
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,720
So they islands about 20 
kilometres offshore from 

320
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:10,320
Mozambique within the tropics. 
And because there was a civil 

321
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,600
war being fought in Mozambique, 
these islands were pretty much 

322
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,960
untouched and pristine. 
So we obviously researched that 

323
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,920
and then we knew that these 
people were working there. 

324
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,960
And, and we were told that the, 
the civil war wasn't anywhere 

325
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,760
near this area. 
It was way, way, about 3-4 

326
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,800
hundred kilometers inland from 
it and, and to the north of the 

327
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,080
islands. 
So we, we, we figured we would 

328
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,600
do a quick sail up to the 
islands, basically one month's 

329
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,400
trip there and back, just so 
that Sandy could do some 

330
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,880
exploratory research and, and 
make contact with the people 

331
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,400
there. 
And so, so that's what we did. 

332
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:55,400
We set off. 
And so we had our children at 

333
00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,080
the time, Tammy was 8 years old 
and Seth was four years old when

334
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,200
we set sail. 
We set sail in April 1990. 

335
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,880
We stopped over in Maputu. 
And that was an eye opener. 

336
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,160
But because Maputu was 
completely controlled by the 

337
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,320
Russians at that time, they were
the first Russians I ever met. 

338
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:18,360
But it was in ruins, a city in 
ruins. 

339
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:25,200
You know, we carried on up the 
coast and, and, and to get to 

340
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,120
the most critical part of the 
story, just the day before we 

341
00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:34,080
were due to reach the islands, 
we'd had headwinds all the time.

342
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,600
So there'd been a bit of a slog 
getting there. 

343
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,080
Sorry, excuse me. 
So there'd been a bit of a slog 

344
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:50,000
getting there, and I saw that 
there were some big Thunder 

345
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,680
clouds developing in inland and 
starting to sort of roll out 

346
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,440
towards the sea. 
We were, we generally were 

347
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,960
sailing within sight of the land
always. 

348
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,320
And anyway, this storm hit us 
that afternoon and it was just a

349
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:10,480
storm of absolutely unbelievable
velocity, unlike anything I'd 

350
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,160
ever experienced. 
It was almost supernatural in 

351
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,960
its intensity. 
It was so strong that it 

352
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,400
actually bent 10 millimetre 
steel plates that are on the 

353
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,440
yacht and it ripped out the the 
head so it just tore to pieces. 

354
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,880
Sandy had to get to go up into 
the story in the book. 

355
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,920
You had to read the story in the
book, but Sandy had to crawl up 

356
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,160
to the bows to bring down the 
sailor. 

357
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,040
Incredibly brave act on her part
and she was probably at the most

358
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,440
about 7 or 8 meters away from me
and I could not actually even 

359
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,120
see her The the sea had just 
been ripped up by the wind and 

360
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,200
and there was all this spume 
blowing around in the air. 

361
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,400
Anyway, that was all a little 
bit but that was pretty 

362
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,480
exhausting and it did it the 
damage it the only damage it did

363
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,520
was to destroy ourselves 
steering gear. 

364
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,720
So the next day we carried on up
towards the island. 

365
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,880
This was now really exciting 
because I'm now 38 years old at 

366
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:13,880
this point and I'm finally now 
reaching the dream of crossing 

367
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,040
into the tropics and getting to 
tropical island, which we did 

368
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,480
the following day we and I 
worked out. 

369
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,160
So this is now pre sat NAV, pre 
GPS days. 

370
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,960
So I was using of course, dead 
reckoning to to navigate. 

371
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:34,960
I worked that worked out that we
would reach and in fact be north

372
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,760
of the islands around about 2:00
in the middle of the night. 

373
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,640
And then the plan was to have 
two, which is a way of putting 

374
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,960
the brakes on the yacht and wait
until Daybreak and then enter 

375
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,480
the channel to get to the 
island. 

376
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,640
And that that's what happened. 
And then then I just made an 

377
00:23:53,680 --> 00:24:01,280
unmistakable unforgivable 
mistake in after I'd tidied up 

378
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,880
the deck that that night and and
sort of cleaned up everything, 

379
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,960
put the yacht into the whole two
position that we weren't, I 

380
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,600
wasn't picking up any bottom, 
any depth below the yacht, which

381
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,400
meant we were far out to sea. 
I went down below and, and, and 

382
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,080
with the intention of sticking 
my head up into the cockpit 

383
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:26,120
every 30 minutes or so and and I
fell asleep. 

384
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:28,680
And about two hours later, Sandy
woke me and said day, we're 

385
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,960
touching bottom and bang, the 
next thing the yacht was 

386
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,440
aground, waves were breaking 
over it. 

387
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,400
And it was just, it was 
incredibly traumatic and 

388
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,080
unbelievable. 
I, I couldn't believe it was 

389
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,360
happening. 
I had no idea where we were and 

390
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,320
why, why we'd hit something when
we were supposed to be so far 

391
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,880
away. 
Anyway, the we managed to, to 

392
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,240
get anchors out and anchor out 
and to turn the yacht Sandy and 

393
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,480
I, so that it was facing back 
out to sea. 

394
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,920
There's a very huge tidal range 
there of four meters. 

395
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:04,760
So as the sun came up, it became
very apparent that that we 

396
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,440
couldn't move the yacht any 
further. 

397
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,960
So the, the kids jumped ashore 
and ran around and, and we set 

398
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,720
about trying to work out how we 
were going to refloat the yacht 

399
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,640
the next day. 
The, the yacht wasn't damaged in

400
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,680
any way at all by this. 
So we're waiting for the next 

401
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,480
high tide. 
But Seth at this point realized 

402
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,160
suddenly realized it was his 5th
birthday, happened to be his 5th

403
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,000
birthday. 
And all he was interested in was

404
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,560
his presence and cake and things
like that. 

405
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,960
So we, we, we created it, put 
out a blanket under the yacht. 

406
00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:42,360
By that time it was completely 
high and dry. 

407
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,120
That was the only shade. 
And we were opening Seth's 

408
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:47,240
presence. 
And I took a photograph of this 

409
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:52,160
and in fact, that's, that's you 
can see it there above my head. 

410
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:58,240
And I was walking back towards 
the yacht and looked up and I 

411
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,360
could see there was this little 
group of people approaching us 

412
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:02,880
from the direction of the 
islands. 

413
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,880
By then, by then, I'd worked out
we were about 30 kilometers 

414
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,040
South of the islands on the 
mainland of Mozambique. 

415
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,240
And anyway, I sit to San Diego, 
great news. 

416
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,480
We've got some help coming. 
And so the two of us got up and 

417
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,320
we started walking towards, 
started walking towards this 

418
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,680
little group. 
And as we neared them, we could 

419
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,480
see that it was made-up of four 
boys and, and two adults. 

420
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,120
But they behaved strangely. 
They, they stopped walking and 

421
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:37,400
then the boys just started to 
walk through inland towards the,

422
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,080
the, the dunes, franking the 
beach. 

423
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,120
And we carried on walking, 
completely oblivious to what was

424
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:47,560
happening and then suddenly 
realized these boys were all 

425
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,600
kneeling down and pointing AK-40
sevens at us. 

426
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,160
You know, that's one of those 
points when life just absolutely

427
00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:02,360
changes 180°. 
It was it, it was, it was a 

428
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:05,360
sight that was just completely 
beyond comprehension. 

429
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:07,840
I, I couldn't believe that what 
I was seeing. 

430
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,920
And I think conventional wisdom 
is that in those situations is 

431
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,160
that you, your body sort of goes
into a fight or flight mode, 

432
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:25,480
fight or flight mode. 
If, if, if, if we'd done either 

433
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,000
of those things, we would be 
dead. 

434
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,440
We would not be here now, 
fortunately, and and maybe it 

435
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:37,480
was part of the fight, the way 
fight was manifested in us with 

436
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,360
we literally froze and that was 
the best thing we could ever 

437
00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:43,840
have done. 
So we froze and then tried to 

438
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,520
appease. 
So we slowly walked back to the 

439
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,800
children. 
The boys sort of followed us all

440
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,160
the time. 
They climbed onto the yacht, 

441
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,280
started throwing things out and 
then they started screaming at 

442
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,840
us. 
And the old couple that were 

443
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,640
with them were actually they're 
burden bearers that captured 

444
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,240
them. 
They were, we didn't know at the

445
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,880
time, but the these boys were 
from from Renorma and that the 

446
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:13,480
old couple were from Frelima. 
Dave, Dave, did you understand 

447
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,200
what they were saying? 
No, no, we couldn't understand 

448
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:18,720
the word though they were. 
Shouting at you in a. 

449
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:24,480
Language speaking Portuguese and
Shangon, but but it was very 

450
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,640
obvious that they wanted us to 
walk with them, walk S with them

451
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,000
and they, they, they might be 
old couple, bundle up some of 

452
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,560
our stuff in in some sheets and,
and and put them on their heads.

453
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,200
They were very rough. 
They started to beat up this old

454
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,000
couple with the butts of their 
rifles and and it was very clear

455
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,200
we had no choice but to walk off
with them. 

456
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,520
So at this point, the children, 
I think suddenly realised that 

457
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,160
things weren't that good. 
Anyway. 

458
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:02,680
We we walked away from from 
Irwin and the leader was a guy 

459
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,760
who had only one eye and they 
were, they were about, he was 

460
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,560
probably about 18-19 years old, 
old at the most. 

461
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,360
The rest were all younger. 
They were from 13 onwards. 

462
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,360
And you know, that's, that 
basically started prodding us 

463
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,000
forward with it and it's made it
make making us walk S with them.

464
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,640
And we, we, we this, this 
started around about 10 o'clock 

465
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,240
10:30 in the morning. 
And we, we walked that whole day

466
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:41,520
S with them until we reached a 
point where where we stopped and

467
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,720
we could hear the the boys were 
arguing with this old couple 

468
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,440
that they were shouting amongst 
themselves. 

469
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,960
And, and I think what they were 
doing was actually dividing up 

470
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,800
the stuff that they'd stolen 
from the yacht, right. 

471
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,360
Anyway, I'm a speed up with the 
story because I'm getting into 

472
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,600
detail. 
No, no, hold on, No, no. 

473
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,440
No, no, you know. 
It's I, I, I get it, but the I, 

474
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,840
I get the, the point that you 
want to speed up because you 

475
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,600
want to get to some of the 
things that you learn from it. 

476
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,920
But like, I mean, I got to ask 
you like in a million years, did

477
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,240
you or Sandy ever think that 
this was even a possibility of 

478
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,280
something that could happen? 
Or was this something at that 

479
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:22,880
point that was completely 
foreign to you that that this 

480
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,760
was even a thing, that that 
children are being raised up in 

481
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:32,200
this guerrilla type, militia, 
pirate type atmosphere? 

482
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,040
Did you have any idea that even 
existed at this point? 

483
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:37,880
No, no, it was. 
It was. 

484
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,160
It was. 
Wow. 

485
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,600
It was all it was. 
It was all unbelievable. 

486
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,160
That's the only way to describe,
you know, it, it sounds, it 

487
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,520
sounds very trite to put it this
way, but it was literally like 

488
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,400
falling into ATV set into some 
kind of TV drama, like an 

489
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,120
episode of NCIS or something. 
You know, it was, it was that 

490
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:02,880
absurd. 
And, and we, we just, all we 

491
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,880
knew was that we, we had to do 
everything in our power not to 

492
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,520
inflamed the situation, not to 
aggravate these boys and and to 

493
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,880
keep alive. 
Did they separate you from the 

494
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,440
kids at all or or or were the 
kids with you the entire time at

495
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,080
this point now? 
The children were always with 

496
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,960
us. 
So, yeah, to to, to jump ahead 

497
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,800
because something particularly 
horrific is about to happen. 

498
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,600
And the story, sorry, not trying
to dangle that in front of 

499
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,320
people, but the worst is yet to 
come. 

500
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:45,840
But we, we, we took a decision, 
Sandy and I, that we had to do 

501
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,360
everything in our power to 
protect our own children, to 

502
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:54,360
never be separated from them. 
I don't think at that, at that 

503
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,800
point we didn't realise how 
dangerous the situation actually

504
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,080
was and how much our lives were 
were under threat. 

505
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,680
But we also took a decision that
we would downplay what was 

506
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,640
happening and say, you know, 
this is just a an unexpected 

507
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,920
variation to the holiday. 
You know, that we, we, we, we, 

508
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,800
we as a family had done some 
pretty weird things up to that 

509
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,800
point. 
Nothing quite as extreme as 

510
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,120
that. 
But, but, but just pretended 

511
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,240
that this was normal. 
And, you know, look at all these

512
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,960
lovely seashells on the beach 
and all these fascinating 

513
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:28,320
things. 
And, you know, those are 

514
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,800
interesting guns and sort of 
thing, you know, So just 

515
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,080
downplay and defuse the 
situation. 

516
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,960
Yeah. 
So yeah, I think to just sort of

517
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,280
carry on, Lucas. 
What happens next is something 

518
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,080
that I find quite difficult to 
talk about. 

519
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,960
But anyway, I'll persevere 
through it. 

520
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,360
I. 
Appreciate it so we they they 

521
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,320
then by then it was it was 
starting to get dark stars were 

522
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,440
coming out and they forced us to
climb up this huge big dune that

523
00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:00,040
was flanking the beach. 
So we, we tunneled up to the top

524
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,240
and and when we got to the trop,
you could see stretching far 

525
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,120
inland was almost like flat 
marshland. 

526
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,200
But on the other side of the 
dune, the land was side of the 

527
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,360
dune with thick forest. 
And and that was really 

528
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,720
terrifying. 
We, we entered that forest. 

529
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,160
So bear in mind that we, we are 
now in shorts and T-shirts. 

530
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:24,680
We haven't even got shoes on. 
And and we at at this point, we 

531
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,720
carrying sis all the time. 
Tammy, this eight years old, 

532
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,480
walked every step of the way. 
Incredible strengths that she 

533
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:33,960
showed. 
Wow. 

534
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,080
So when we entered that dune, we
crossed over the Crest. 

535
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,600
The, there was this incredible 
deathly silence because up to 

536
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,160
that point we had the reference 
of the sea next to us. 

537
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,200
So we, we kind of, at least we 
knew where we were. 

538
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,680
We were on the on the coastline 
Once we were in that forest and 

539
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,680
it was pitch black and we 
weren't following a path. 

540
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,720
We were just blundering our way 
through the trees. 

541
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,320
We, we knew that we were lost 
and there was this terrible 

542
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:06,040
feeling of, of being lost 
because if we vanished at that 

543
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,719
point, nobody would ever have 
found us anyway. 

544
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,120
We, we carried on walking 
through this forest, absolutely 

545
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,880
exhausted at this point. 
And it's, it's also very warm 

546
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,760
because it's a Tropic. 
So we we absolutely sodden as 

547
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,159
well from sweat. 
So one, one of the boys, the, 

548
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:30,000
the youngest one was sort of 
behind us and he kept on 

549
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,360
prodding us forward saying 
bumbush, bumbush. 

550
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,560
And the, the other boys were in 
front and the old couple that 

551
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,360
that were with them carrying the
stuff. 

552
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,760
And after, I suppose about two 
hours of walking through this 

553
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,239
forest, we reached the point 
where we were told to sit down 

554
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,719
in a sort of little blade. 
We could see that we're in a 

555
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,000
little bit of a valley base 
because there's, there's quite 

556
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,520
a, you can see the star glow 
sort of defines the horizon. 

557
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,560
Sorry. 
And so we were, we were told to 

558
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,480
sit down and one boy stayed with
us and, but then the others all 

559
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,280
sort of carried on. 
And we could hear them starting 

560
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,480
to shout and, and, and, and it 
sounded like they were sort of 

561
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:20,400
cutting their way through the 
Bush, sort of like slushy Bush. 

562
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,080
And, and I said to Sandy, it 
sounds like they've lost, they 

563
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:26,480
don't know where they're going 
now. 

564
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:35,640
Anyway, soon after that, they, 
they, the leader came back. 

565
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,400
We, we were calling him Cyclops 
by that time, by the way. 

566
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:41,680
So this habit of calling being 
names, because we had to 

567
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,800
identify who they were amongst 
ourselves. 

568
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,520
He came back and and he was, I 
could see he was exceptionally 

569
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,240
agitated. 
So he brushed past me and as he,

570
00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:56,920
as he walked past me, he shoved 
the jugger like a little plastic

571
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,680
jug with a handle on it into my 
hand. 

572
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,640
And, and I knew the old man had 
been carrying this and the, the 

573
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,000
handle was, was sticky. 
And I involuntarily, I licked my

574
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,480
fingers and, and I tasted metal.
And I, you know, at that point, 

575
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,160
I just kind of knew that they'd 
actually just bane it that old 

576
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:23,120
couple to death. 
And that was, you know, at that 

577
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,800
point, you can't really, you 
can't really explain how you 

578
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,440
feel. 
You know, it's we, we, we 

579
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,480
literally thought we were The 
Walking Dead, but we reinforced 

580
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,520
this feeling of Sandy and myself
that we had to protect the 

581
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,760
children. 
And, and fortunately, the 

582
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,560
children were oblivious to what 
had happened because it was all 

583
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:42,560
dark. 
We never saw it. 

584
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,760
We only heard it the next day, 
we saw the evidence of it. 

585
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,800
So we weren't, we weren't what 
we were imagining definitely 

586
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:55,840
happened. 
But so we, we, we just carried 

587
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,360
on trying to downplay the whole 
thing. 

588
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,600
And soon after that we reached 
a, a sort of a temporary camp, 

589
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,320
outlying camp of this Ronama 
terrorist group. 

590
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,120
And then the so anyway, we, we 
spent the night there, 

591
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,680
absolutely terrifying night 
amongst these youngsters. 

592
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,760
We we, the leader of that camp. 
How many, how many, how many 

593
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,240
people do you think were in that
camp? 

594
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,440
Once you got to the camp, how 
many people do you think were 

595
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:31,520
there? 
In terms of, of, of, let's call 

596
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,480
them soldiers. 
Well, I, I don't know to be 

597
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,040
honest, but I would guess in 
terms of soldiers, boys and men,

598
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,960
but they were mainly boys, 
probably about 20 at the most. 

599
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,120
But there were, there were, 
there was this, this was 

600
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,160
actually, we discovered 
afterwards that this was an 

601
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,280
outlying camp of Renorma. 
And it was actually they, they, 

602
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,320
they were growing maize and 
things like that there. 

603
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,120
So it was actually like a little
agricultural outpost. 

604
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,720
So there were quite a lot of 
women and girls there as well, 

605
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,120
kind of like we, we finally 
ended up. 

606
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:16,720
And yeah, so anyway, the next, 
the next morning, we, we knew 

607
00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:24,480
they'd sent back a, a bunch of, 
of other troops to go and, and 

608
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:31,320
raid the yacht. 
And I think I must, I must 

609
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,320
really, I must move forward 
because we use up all the time 

610
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,760
telling the story. 
No, I know it's, it's, it's an 

611
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,120
unbelievable story. 
And and I mean, yeah, like, 

612
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,160
like, how long are you at that 
camp before the next major event

613
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,360
happens? 
Now we only spent a night there,

614
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,920
so the next morning they a very 
frightening thing happened 

615
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,680
because Cyclops was called 
before. 

616
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,240
So the commander of that camp 
was a guy that we called Paul 

617
00:38:58,240 --> 00:38:59,920
Patrick. 
I think we misunderstood his 

618
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:01,920
name. 
We gave him the name Paul 

619
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:08,880
Patrick, this commander, he 
seemed to have modelled himself 

620
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,600
on Chez Guevara. 
In fact, that's what he looked 

621
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:19,600
like. 
He, he brought Cyclops before it

622
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,440
was brought before him. 
And clearly Cyclops was being 

623
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,880
accused of something. 
And, and we witnessed this, this

624
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,080
really terrifying scene where 
Cyclops was, was being forced to

625
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,280
admit that he obviously it's 
stolen stuff from the yacht that

626
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,120
should have gone to the 
commander of this camp. 

627
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,080
So 22 little boys were made to 
go and cut some sticks and they 

628
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,400
started to beat Cyclops on his 
back and on his, the backs of 

629
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,640
his legs and, and he started 
screaming and shouting. 

630
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,240
Before long, this kid who'd 
actually the day before had 

631
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,640
killed people was, was himself 
just lying on the ground 

632
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,920
whimpering and screaming like a 
little child. 

633
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,480
It, it was a, it was, it was a 
terrible thing to actually 

634
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,920
witness anyway. 
Then, then. 

635
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,560
So he, he was, he was sort of 
made to lie there with his arms 

636
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,800
spread out on, on his stomach 
and arms and legs spread out. 

637
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,960
And Paul Patrick grabbed an AK47
and held it to his head. 

638
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:22,240
And you know, oh, you know, can 
things possibly get any worse 

639
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:26,480
than this? 
But anyway, he, he made, made 

640
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,920
Cyclops shout out what was 
obviously an admission and, and 

641
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,320
mercifully, it never went any 
further than that. 

642
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,720
And Cyclops was allowed to just 
to skulk off. 

643
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,920
Soon after that we were taken to
the top of a sand dune nearby. 

644
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,760
We were about two kilometers 
from the sea and we spent the 

645
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:51,440
morning waiting there and and 
that afternoon Paul Patrick came

646
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,080
back and gave us back 
essentially 2 shopping bags full

647
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,360
of our stuff. 
And and then a different group 

648
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,000
of boys were were told us a 
different group of boys were 

649
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:08,000
going to accompany us to the 
road to villain Kulis, which was

650
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,360
great news to us because that's 
what we wanted to get back to 

651
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,560
civilization. 
So here above my shoulder, which

652
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,840
which side I'm on here, this 
this photo, that's the group of 

653
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,680
boys that then walked with us 
down that section. 

654
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:24,680
And how did you? 
Get a picture of them. 

655
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:30,280
Yeah, so in their shopping bags,
believe it or not, incredibly, 

656
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,480
was my camera. 
Of all unlikely things that they

657
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,000
should return, There was 
nothing, it was absolutely 

658
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,760
nothing, nothing. 
But the two critical things I 

659
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:43,360
returned was our camera and anti
malaria tablets just by 

660
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:48,000
incredible good fortune. 
And yeah, so that's why I've got

661
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,920
photographs behind me of the 
event. 

662
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:57,240
We we were, we were told not to 
take any photographs, but I was,

663
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,440
I wasn't entirely honest about 
that. 

664
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,680
But yeah, it is quite a unique 
record of the, of what happened.

665
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,680
You know, we spent the next two 
days walking S down the beach. 

666
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,600
We in total we covered about 70 
kilometres and we ended up in 

667
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:17,840
the Yanomo headquarters and we 
spent, they built a Hut for us 

668
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:27,040
there and, and we spent seven 
weeks living with them. 7 And it

669
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:34,600
was during, during, during that 
time we had to just accept that,

670
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,480
you know, things weren't going 
to get any better. 

671
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,320
We, they weren't, we tried to 
get them to take us back to the 

672
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,080
yacht. 
We tried to get them to take us 

673
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,320
to the road and they always kept
on saying it was too dangerous. 

674
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,760
Maybe at this point I must just 
give a little bit of context as 

675
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:53,560
well as to what you forded into.
So how did? 

676
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,160
You also communicate. 
I also want to know how you 

677
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,480
communicated. 
Like did anybody there speak a 

678
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,520
common language or was it all 
just a matter of feel by this 

679
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,360
point and trying to understand 
what each other was saying? 

680
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,560
No, the, the communication was, 
was a source of, of endless 

681
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,680
trauma to us because nobody 
could speak any, we couldn't 

682
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,320
communicate with them. 
So for one man, Patricia, 

683
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,520
Gerald, Patricia, he was about 
40 years old. 

684
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,720
So he was, he, he became our 
official interpreter and 

685
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:31,640
protector in fact. 
And we, we, we owe our lives to 

686
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,240
many people, but one of them was
Patricia. 

687
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,360
Unfortunately, Patricia, he'd, 
he'd learnt a little bit of 

688
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,880
English while working on the 
mines in South Africa. 

689
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,880
And unfortunately he, he didn't 
have a particularly good grasp 

690
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,400
of English. 
And he'd also obviously been 

691
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,720
threatened with death if he'd 
divulged anything. 

692
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:52,200
You, you would never, you 
wouldn't tell us what was 

693
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,720
happening, but but it was really
clear that on many occasions we 

694
00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:59,440
were questioned by the the 
commander of the camp, the guy 

695
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,280
we called the commander, he was 
a 21 year old. 

696
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,200
We knew they were asking 
questions about oil exploration 

697
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:07,400
and fishing and things like 
that. 

698
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,120
So we, you kind of know that 
your life depends on these 

699
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,160
answers that you're giving. 
But the problem was we had no 

700
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:19,400
idea what was what, Patricia was
saying back to the commander. 

701
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,360
Right? 
Well, you know, we, we, we 

702
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,920
couldn't, we didn't understand 
the questions we were asked, and

703
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,760
we had no idea whether our 
answers were being relayed 

704
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:33,960
correctly. 
Maybe. 

705
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,800
Were your kids with you? 
Again, I got I got asked, I got 

706
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,080
asked a question to get about 
the kids. 

707
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,120
Were your kids with you the 
whole time? 

708
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:46,040
Were they ever used as as, as 
leverage, you know, to try and 

709
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,680
find these things out? 
And, and we're at this point, 

710
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,560
are you telling them just go 
with the flow, Just do 

711
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,680
everything that they say to do? 
And, and, and, you know, I know 

712
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,240
that's the number one thing 
people ask. 

713
00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:58,920
I get it. 
There's a reason for that. 

714
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:02,800
You know, while you're in this 
part of the story here, what 

715
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:07,040
were you telling the kids? 
Basically carrying on the story 

716
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,720
that, you know, this was just an
incredibly exciting adventure 

717
00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:12,720
that we we were in, you know, 
and there were all these strange

718
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,600
things happening, all these 
amazing spiders and scorpions 

719
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,400
and, and, and things living in 
the Bush. 

720
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:20,960
So we were living in a Bush 
camp. 

721
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,280
This is not. 
So I think that there's a 

722
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,640
photograph of Tammies. 
This is this is a photograph 

723
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,320
sneaked through a hole in, in 
the Hut that they built for us. 

724
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,600
So that's a little context. 
So that's Tammy over there 

725
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,960
anyway. 
Yeah. 

726
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,840
So we, we, we, we set up, we set
up games for the children. 

727
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:53,480
But it became quite clear that 
they weren't going to harm us. 

728
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,120
In fact, they, to be honest, 
they treated us as best they 

729
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:02,600
could. 
We had the, as good a food as 

730
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:09,560
the, the leaders had, we had 
warm water to bath in every 

731
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:16,200
every morning and every evening.
And they really loved the kids. 

732
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:21,040
So 1, you see, this is, this is 
where the story gets complicated

733
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:26,920
in terms of trying to make it 
very brief, because the, the, 

734
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:32,160
the, the first contact we had 
with the leadership was that 

735
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,240
those boys had accompanied us 
down to down after the 70 

736
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:37,640
kilometre walk. 
And then we walked inland. 

737
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,440
We didn't know where we were 
heading at that point. 

738
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:43,240
And then they suddenly left us 
on the path. 

739
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:45,120
The, the boys that were 
accompanying us, they just 

740
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,000
abandoned us. 
And the next thing this, this 

741
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,800
man, he was about 50 years old, 
but with his, his arm, his left 

742
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,160
arm amputated just above the 
elbow. 

743
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,480
He suddenly appears very well 
dressed in, in sort of slacks 

744
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:07,040
and, and, and an iron shirt. 
And he he sees us and he sees 

745
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,880
Seth, who at that point happened
to be playing with a big giant 

746
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:16,080
locust. 
So yeah, for Sith, it was like 

747
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,000
living. 
It was like a paradise. 

748
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,200
It was like living in a sand pit
to just digress, you know, it 

749
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,840
was like a he never had to wash 
or bath or anything like that. 

750
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,440
So that that's. 
Effective is everything. 

751
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,880
By the way, so anyway, this this
guy who we immediately gave the 

752
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:37,960
name Captain Hook and he became 
a very important character in, 

753
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,720
in during our time there. 
He was sort of like the liaison 

754
00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:44,080
guy. 
He saw Seth and he just like, 

755
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,160
whoa, he just, he grabbed Seth 
with his one arm, stuck him on 

756
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,680
his, stuck him on his, his arm 
and started running off down the

757
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,560
path, which which didn't make 
Seth very happy. 

758
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,680
But but then all all this guy 
did was he like giggled it, it 

759
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,600
was very disturbing. 
You know, he was we, we 

760
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,040
discovered afterwards that he 
was drunk all the time. 

761
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,440
You know, they were all drunk 
all the time, so. 

762
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:15,200
Oh my God. 
Anyway, yeah. 

763
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,280
So they, they actually really 
loved the children. 

764
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:22,840
They they put up a spring for 
them. 

765
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:31,240
They provided bicycle wheels for
them to wheel around and, and 

766
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:35,760
they gave them a constant supply
of, of sugar cane to Manchon so 

767
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,160
and, and nuts and things like 
that. 

768
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,160
So the, the children were 
actually, you know, I mean, when

769
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,560
I say well treated in the 
context, they were incredibly 

770
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,880
well treated. 
And it became very apparent that

771
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,040
these people were actually 
looking after us. 

772
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,040
So this is this is where now it 
becomes important before I get 

773
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,760
into too much detail to explain 
the context. 

774
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,040
Now that's, that's the 
incredible thing about this 

775
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:10,160
context is that it was only, it 
was only 32 years after 1990, 

776
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,080
just a few years ago, after I'd 
written the book that I was 

777
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,800
approached by some men who said 
they had information that I 

778
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,320
might find interesting. 
And, and for the first time, I 

779
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,400
discovered what the background 
was, what, what was actually 

780
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,880
happening. 
And the, and the context which 

781
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,040
is which is which is slightly 
bizarre. 

782
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,640
So can I just start listening to
that quickly to explain that 

783
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,880
context? 
So we, we could never understand

784
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,800
why they were held that kept us 
captured, you know, why they 

785
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,520
didn't just take us to the road.
So twice while we were there, 

786
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:51,680
the camp was attacked. 
The first time was with missiles

787
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:53,880
in the middle of the night. 
And that was the most terrifying

788
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:55,520
thing I've ever experienced in 
my life. 

789
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,080
You know, these things fell out 
of the sky and they had 

790
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,520
proximity fuses. 
So they exploded above your head

791
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:06,520
and and I I literally could feel
my brain disintegrating at that 

792
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,320
point. 
It was very difficult to keep up

793
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,560
the charade of this is just 
normal. 

794
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,440
Anyway, that and that was 
followed up by an infantry 

795
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:18,680
attack. 
But the these children were that

796
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,840
made-up the the Army were 
incredibly well trained and 

797
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:27,120
disciplined. 
Wherein perhaps lies a story. 

798
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:31,280
And they repelled the, the 
forces that were attacking the 

799
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,120
camp. 
Straight after that the 

800
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,960
commander came to us and through
Patrick said the reason for that

801
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,640
attack was to kill you. 
And he said that's crazy. 

802
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:41,640
Why would, why would they want 
to come and kill us? 

803
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,840
We, we were, we were trying to 
work out how to run into them to

804
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,440
escape. 
And then a few weeks later there

805
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,440
was another attack which started
with a mortal bomb, mortal bomb 

806
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,520
attack in the camp early one 
morning. 

807
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,560
That was a very serious event. 
There were 500 troops attacked 

808
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:04,360
the camp and we, we were to run 
and, and flee for our lives. 

809
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:09,640
There was literally with bullets
flying around and, and there 

810
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:11,360
were a lot of injuries that 
resulted that. 

811
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:13,600
And we were told after that 
again that the reason for that 

812
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,920
attack was to kill you. 
And we, we didn't really believe

813
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:23,720
that. 
So, but in fact, that was true. 

814
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,240
That was actually the the 
situation. 

815
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:35,400
So what what I discovered from 
these men was that's just sorry,

816
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,360
just to go back a little bit 
further because I haven't 

817
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,640
explained who the Norma and Lima
were. 

818
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,360
So Norma was a, let me sort of 
start with Fredima. 

819
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,280
Fredima were the government 
forces. 

820
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:52,560
So they were the Russian trains 
sort of Soviet forces army for 

821
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:57,360
Mozambique, the sort of official
governmental army and they were 

822
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:03,000
fighting a civil war against 
this group called Renamo who was

823
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,960
originally they were originally 
formed by the Southern Rhodesian

824
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:14,920
government to as a counter 
terrorist measure on on the 

825
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,960
eastern border. 
After after Southern Rhodesia 

826
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,680
became Zimbabwe, South Africa 
took over in the interest in 

827
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,200
looking after the Norma. 
So they, they were sort of in 

828
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,600
inverted comments like the good 
guys, as far as we were 

829
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:30,800
concerned, they were the Western
bet. 

830
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:37,080
So America and America and 
Portugal and to a lesser extent 

831
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,360
Britain were, were supporting 
them as well as South Africa. 

832
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:53,520
Then in in 1985, I think South 
Africa realized the writing was 

833
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,280
on the wall in terms of 
apartheid and, and, and having 

834
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:03,880
to relinquish power to the ANC. 
The the President of South 

835
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,360
Africa and the President of 
Mozambique met on at the at the 

836
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,160
Incommati River and they signed 
what is called the Incommati 

837
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,280
Accord. 
And that basically was a non 

838
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,240
aggression pact between the two 
countries. 

839
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:20,120
So Forlemo undertook the Forlemo
government, the Mozambique 

840
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,280
government undertook to no 
longer support the ANC because 

841
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,320
overhead we're giving them a 
safe base there right on the 

842
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,080
border of South Africa. 
And in return South Africa 

843
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:34,040
undertook to not support Renama.
I don't think either side really

844
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:37,880
actually abided by that, but 
South Africa was certainly 

845
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,560
caught out two years later when 
it was discovered they were 

846
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:46,240
still supporting them. 
Now anyway, this is this is very

847
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:47,960
important in terms of the 
context. 

848
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:57,040
So yes, what I discovered from 
these men was the the names were

849
00:53:57,240 --> 00:54:01,760
John Culley and Marius. 
So the first guy who contacted 

850
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:06,200
me was Marius and he put me in 
contact with John. 

851
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:11,520
So John John, it turns out, was 
actually the South African link 

852
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,440
with Renorma through the 
through. 

853
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,680
Not, not that. 
So he was like a link between 

854
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,120
the military and the southern 
government and he had to look 

855
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,600
after the president of Renoma, a
guy called Alfonso de Calma. 

856
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:31,720
And I've met him and he was also
one of the original Ricky's, the

857
00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:37,800
equivalent of the Navy Seals in 
South Africa and an amazing, 

858
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:43,800
amazing man. 
So in 19, at the time of the 

859
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,720
incommunge accord been signed, 
he was, he was instructed to 

860
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:54,640
keep liaising with Renomo. 
And this happened until 1987 

861
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:59,080
when he was suddenly one day 
told to get Alfonso Drakkarma, 

862
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:05,840
the president of Ronama to 
Pretoria for a meeting and with 

863
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,800
with Pukbuerter who is the 
Minister of Foreign Affairs for 

864
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,560
South Africa. 
And at this meeting Pukbuerter 

865
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,080
said that Saudi was now going to
abide by the Unkamati Accord and

866
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,760
was cutting off all support for 
Ronoma. 

867
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,760
The karma was incensed by that. 
That is the reason why we were 

868
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,640
captured and held by them as as 
hostages to force South Africa 

869
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:32,000
back to supporting the Nana, 
because at that time, right 

870
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:37,360
after that, sorry. 
No, in the background then, were

871
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:42,280
you guys being used as pawns 
and, and, and these these people

872
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,400
were saying, OK, guess what 
we've got. 

873
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,280
Yeah, hostages, including 
children, and they were trying 

874
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,640
to use you as leverage to 
further their agenda. 

875
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:52,440
Is that happening in the 
background without you even 

876
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,320
knowing it was happening? 
Yeah, we, we had no idea that 

877
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:56,280
that was happening. 
Yeah. 

878
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:01,640
And and that, I mean, I've seen,
I've, I've seen factual proof of

879
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,440
that. 
So that's exactly the situation.

880
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:09,080
All as a result of the book. 
All as a result of the book 

881
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,880
coming out. 
And now pieces have come back 

882
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:13,720
into to give you a bigger 
picture. 

883
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:19,720
Yeah, so wow, wow. 
Yeah. 

884
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:23,640
So we, we, we with the story. 
Sorry I've I've lost my. 

885
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:25,240
No, hold on, hold on. 
Before we get back to the story,

886
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:28,040
Dave, I got to know before you 
back to the story, who's going 

887
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:30,720
to play you in the movie? 
Who's going to play you in the 

888
00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:32,280
movie? 
Because like, I mean, Mike. 

889
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:34,800
Everybody who's in the books and
there used to be a movie, I I 

890
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:39,080
no, nobody's put calculus be a 
publisher for the book. 

891
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:40,720
So anyway, but that's another 
story. 

892
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:46,640
OK, So anyway, so, So what the 
problem was that Renamo, I think

893
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,800
everybody knew that the USSR was
collapsing and that things were 

894
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:55,120
changing in South Africa and the
ANC would be unbanned and Rama 

895
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:57,520
critically was losing the 
propaganda war. 

896
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:04,600
They, they Ronald Reagan and the
American CIA called him second 

897
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,760
only to the Khmer Rouge in terms
of viciousness. 

898
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:11,200
Margaret Thatcher started saying
kind things about them. 

899
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:17,000
So for Lima then realized that 
any atrocity that was 

900
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,160
perpetrated in Mozambique would 
be blamed on Renama, regardless 

901
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:26,120
of who, who, who, who did it so 
suddenly. 

902
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,640
So Renama captured us, But but 
for Lima suddenly realized all 

903
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,440
they had to do was kill us and 
Renama would be blamed. 

904
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,880
And this would put Renama in an 
incredibly disadvantageous 

905
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:40,880
situation when it came to 
negotiating peace, which was 

906
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,240
which was an inevitability 
because they couldn't carry on 

907
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:47,320
fighting the war forever. 
So. 

908
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:54,040
And that's what happened in in 
Yeah. 

909
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,560
So now to get back to John, I'm,
I'm, I'm just going to use his 

910
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:01,560
their first names and, and their
names are mentioned in the book,

911
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:08,160
but, but just to protect them. 
So, so John, John now is aware 

912
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,720
that, that, you know, he's been 
told to cut all contact with 

913
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,560
Renomo and he, he basically said
to foreign affairs. 

914
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:17,800
Look, that's not a very wise 
thing to do because what 

915
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,360
happens, what happens if, for 
example, a South African 

916
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:25,240
aeroplane crashed in Mozambique?
You know, that country to the 

917
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:29,400
what the message that's out 
there that Renomo are only 

918
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,200
operating in Golongoza area. 
They actually control the entire

919
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:35,240
country only for Lima only 
control the cities. 

920
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:36,920
How? 
How would you, how would you 

921
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,760
negotiate with them? 
And he was told no, you cut all 

922
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:47,080
contact, which which he did. 
Then in 1990, what happens? 

923
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,280
Not in aeroplane crashes, but 
this crazy family running around

924
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:52,400
in some peak and they get 
captured. 

925
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:54,120
Exactly what he predicted would 
happen. 

926
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:58,920
Soon after we were captured, the
South African government 

927
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:00,920
realized that they had to come 
and rescue us. 

928
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:03,120
And the only way they could do 
that would be to send a Navy 

929
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,240
naval task force up into the 
waters. 

930
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:09,520
And that so this now 
precipitated extraordinary 

931
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:12,000
cooperation between the 
countries. 

932
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,960
So South Africa had to get 
permission for South Africa to 

933
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,480
land in on Mozambique, realized 
that the countries were thawing 

934
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:22,520
tents and purposes at war at 
this time, that they had to stop

935
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:24,320
fighting. 
Everybody had to stop fighting. 

936
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:28,560
South Africa had to come ashore.
There had to be observers and 

937
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,640
all this sort of thing. 
So this task force is now put 

938
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:38,560
together 33 naval ships and I'll
come in to rescue, rescue us. 

939
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:41,800
I'm deeply. 
And how long? 

940
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,120
Are you there at this point, at 
this point here when they're 

941
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:47,080
when they're getting the 
exercises ready to come and get 

942
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,200
you, How long are you there at 
this point? 

943
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:53,320
We've been there. 
We were there in total seven 

944
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,800
weeks, but this was about this 
is all happening after about 5 

945
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,360
weeks and you have. 
No idea. 

946
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,120
Like, like, like I want to ask 
about hope. 

947
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:04,920
I want to ask about hope because
you and Sandy are putting on the

948
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:08,080
bravest faces as you can. 
Seth and Tammy are, are are are,

949
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,920
are, are OK, which is 
unbelievable when you think 

950
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:15,960
about like the fear and whatnot.
And I mean, how grateful you 

951
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:20,000
must have been that they were 
OK, but you were burdening the, 

952
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,680
the, the responsibility of 
having to fake it till you make 

953
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:23,960
it. 
You were burdening the 

954
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,120
responsibility of, of, of, of 
showing. 

955
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:28,920
The kids that you were OK and 
that there wasn't fear. 

956
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:30,600
You were putting on the brave 
face for them. 

957
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:34,680
Was there any hope? 
Did you guys have any hope at 

958
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:38,240
all? 
No, you know, we, we kind of, 

959
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,840
you know, you go through a very 
weird cycle of, of hope. 

960
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,960
So you, you begin to read hope 
into all sorts of crazy, 

961
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:51,200
unrealistic gestures and, and 
situations. 

962
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,800
So we, we, we'd learned from 
Patricia through, over a long 

963
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,400
period of time that helicopters 
had landed in that area. 

964
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,520
And we've, we've no idea whose 
helicopters they were or where 

965
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:07,680
they were from. 
But clearly he described it so, 

966
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,000
so much that helicopters had 
landed there. 

967
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:12,480
And we've learned that they 
landed there at night. 

968
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,520
And we thought, oh, OK, this 
means they've got to land at the

969
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:19,280
full moon. 
So, you know, so then the hope 

970
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:21,480
becomes the next full moon. 
This is when we're going to be 

971
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:23,400
rescued. 
Wow. 

972
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:27,320
Completely, completely 
unrealistic, I think to to 

973
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,760
believe under the circumstances.
So you you climb up. 

974
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:32,000
Yeah, but it. 
Helps you get through the day 

975
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:33,640
though, right? 
Yeah, you climb. 

976
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:35,760
Oh, the day is dragged by 
unbelievably. 

977
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:39,520
But anyway, we use various 
techniques together. 

978
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:43,840
So you climb up this this little
hill of hope and, and comes the 

979
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:47,360
full moon and nothing happens. 
And then you sit down the next 

980
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:51,360
side and the, the problem is, is
that so then, then, then we 

981
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,520
discovered no Patricios, are you
stupid? 

982
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,240
Of course the helicopters don't 
fly. 

983
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:56,560
And then when there's a full 
moon, they fly. 

984
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,440
I mean, there's no moon and they
make a big Ring of Fire that the

985
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:00,840
helicopters land in the middle 
of. 

986
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:04,000
So now, now you now you climb up
the next one. 

987
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:06,800
But, but you, you never get as 
high as you were. 

988
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,600
And so by the time we were 
rescued, we were pretty 

989
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:12,640
catatonic. 
I mean, we, we actually thought 

990
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,120
we were, we were, thought we 
were actually mentally very 

991
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:17,560
strong. 
It was only once we were rescued

992
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:22,960
that we discovered how 
incredibly mentally ill we were,

993
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,480
mainly because of this ever 
decreasing hope that we 

994
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:31,520
experienced. 
It's it's quite interesting to 

995
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:36,360
perhaps just comment about how 
differently Sandy and I reacted 

996
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:38,840
because there's there's so much 
one could talk about on this, on

997
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:42,240
these subjects. 
Sandy remained. 

998
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:45,200
Initially, Sandy was had no 
hope. 

999
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,800
I was the strong one with hope. 
I was in, oh, we get out of 

1000
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:49,920
this. 
Don't worry, you know, I'm being

1001
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,680
into beating my chest. 
I'm the man. 

1002
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:54,960
You got to get it all. 
You know, we'll survive this 

1003
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:57,440
sort of thing. 
But then I slid into incredible 

1004
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,920
despair. 
But Sandy then grew out of out 

1005
01:02:59,920 --> 01:03:01,880
of. 
I think she then realized that 

1006
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:06,520
she wasn't as quite as much she 
was, She developed quite a lot 

1007
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:09,320
of respect in the camp because 
she had some medical training. 

1008
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:14,560
So she was seen as the doctor. 
So, you know, there's a whole, 

1009
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:17,800
we could go off for 1520 minutes
on that subject. 

1010
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:23,240
So, so Sandy kept on saying to 
me, no, Dave, why don't you make

1011
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:26,480
something, you know, ask them 
for a knife and, and build a 

1012
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:28,400
chair? 
Or is it because there was, I 

1013
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,640
mean, there were, you can see 
the pictures behind me. 

1014
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,080
That literally is what we had a 
table and a few broken chairs. 

1015
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,800
And I, I don't think they ever 
would have given me a knife. 

1016
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,320
They would never let me touch 
anything that was vaguely a 

1017
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,160
weapon. 
But I couldn't bring myself to 

1018
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:48,640
do anything constructive because
that would be an admission on my

1019
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,840
part that this was going to 
carry on and there was no end to

1020
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:53,880
it. 
I see. 

1021
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,200
And so so I was sort of becoming
more and more hopeless, I 

1022
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:00,440
suppose you could say. 
So Sandy was actually the strong

1023
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:02,640
one in this whole thing. 
She's got to have all the credit

1024
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:09,880
for for it. 
So, yeah, that's that's that's 

1025
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:16,600
sort of, I mean, you know, if 
you think about it, there we are

1026
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:23,680
sitting in the Bush completely 
cut off both. 

1027
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:26,920
I mean, none of us were jumping 
around full with joy. 

1028
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:31,400
I can tell you it's but but me 
in particular was I was feeling 

1029
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:35,160
very depressed. 
And there were times when, I 

1030
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:39,360
mean, here's another funny 
little story to tell that might,

1031
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:41,800
that might ring, ring with some 
men. 

1032
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:46,240
There were times when I actually
felt very suicidal. 

1033
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,200
I don't know if one should talk 
about these things, you know, 

1034
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,200
where you just feel. 
I just just can't carry on any 

1035
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:53,880
longer. 
You know, this is and, and, and 

1036
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:57,440
there are all these AK-40 sevens
leading up against trees all 

1037
01:04:57,440 --> 01:04:59,480
over the place. 
You know, every day they were 

1038
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:04,160
shooting in the camp and all you
had to do was grab one of them. 

1039
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:08,640
You know, I, I'd, I'd even 
discovered how to get it off 

1040
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:12,560
safety and, and simply just 
start shooting and within, 

1041
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:14,720
within a minute we would all be 
dead. 

1042
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:19,480
And it would be seen as a very 
heroic gesture on my part. 

1043
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:24,200
But that would have been the 
most incredibly cowardly thing I

1044
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:28,480
think I could ever have done. 
So, But but nonetheless, that's 

1045
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:30,560
how I'm feeling. 
And you know, and you're sitting

1046
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,440
there and, and, and so the, the 
book is based on my diary. 

1047
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,120
So, yeah, sorry, just to, I 
don't know if you can see this, 

1048
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:39,520
this is, this is, this is the 
actual diary. 

1049
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:43,800
I clicked it while I was there. 
So every day I wrote up this, 

1050
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:46,640
this little minute little, this 
minute little print. 

1051
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,560
I don't know if that's really 
clear what was happening. 

1052
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:52,240
And that's what the book is 
based on. 

1053
01:05:54,440 --> 01:06:01,040
So 1 morning, I was feeling very
down and I, but I was sitting in

1054
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:04,120
the Hut and I, I was writing up 
this little bit of this diary 

1055
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:09,680
and suddenly bang a mortar. 
That second attack occurs. 

1056
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:12,360
The mortar lands just on the 
outskirts and the next thing 

1057
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:15,720
they're shooting all around. 
And I mean, like, you know, just

1058
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:18,480
like that from, from feeling, 
oh, I want to die. 

1059
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:21,480
It's incredible. 
I've got to survive, you know, I

1060
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,960
mean, I've never in my life felt
more alive than running away 

1061
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:28,320
with a bullets flying. 
It's, it's a terrible admission,

1062
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:32,520
in fact, but, but it is, it's, 
and, and that's why people love 

1063
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:35,360
adventure sports and, and 
paintball and things like that. 

1064
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:40,040
And you get a kind of a big 
adrenaline rush to suddenly find

1065
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:44,200
your life at risk. 
And, and, and the same applied 

1066
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:48,280
to the, the, the boys and who 
were, who were our captors. 

1067
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:53,720
You know, they, they, they, we 
thought they would run away, but

1068
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:56,200
they were fierce, fierce, 
disciplined fighters. 

1069
01:06:56,600 --> 01:07:00,080
And they whoop with joy both 
occasions when the when the camp

1070
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,520
was attacked, because now 
suddenly this was their self 

1071
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,320
worth being, you know, being 
made manifest. 

1072
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:09,360
Wow. 
So yeah. 

1073
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:14,240
So anyway, perhaps just to get 
back to to explain the context 

1074
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:20,480
of the story, so. 
I'm fascinated by the way. 

1075
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:23,280
I'm fascinated by every word. 
I'm hanging on every word. 

1076
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:26,720
And I'm sorry, I'm waiting to. 
Dive into the book. 

1077
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:29,280
I'm taking too long to tell the 
story, but we're. 

1078
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:30,560
Good. 
No, no, no. 

1079
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:32,160
We're good. 
Let's keep it going here. 

1080
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:32,920
The second. 
Attack. 

1081
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:37,480
Happens where time's marching on
and, and, and, and, and you're 

1082
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:42,080
going through, you know, these 
ups and these downs of, of, of, 

1083
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:47,640
of how you're feeling. 
And I mean well. 

1084
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:52,160
I think, I think the critical 
thing to, to, to note about that

1085
01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:54,880
is we had no idea that so much 
was happening in the background.

1086
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:57,920
We had no idea that the Navy was
literally steaming up the coast 

1087
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:00,000
towards us. 
I mean, that would have raised 

1088
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:01,720
our hopes immensely if we'd 
known that. 

1089
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,360
But but then there was a problem
because Renamo refused to 

1090
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:09,280
release us. 
So, so Frelimo had agreed to 

1091
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:12,400
release us, but Renamo said, no,
we're going to, we'll hold this 

1092
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:13,800
family for as long as we need 
to. 

1093
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,640
And, and that was that then was 
creating a very embarrassing 

1094
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:23,479
situation because the the task 
force was already assembled in 

1095
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:25,160
one's way. 
And these are not easy things to

1096
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:29,399
put together, I've discovered 
as, as I think America's 

1097
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:34,960
discovering right now. 
So I shouldn't have said that, 

1098
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:38,279
should I? 
No, what are you talking about? 

1099
01:08:38,359 --> 01:08:40,800
It's it's it's it's the 
observance. 

1100
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:43,319
The observance of everything is 
is absolutely. 

1101
01:08:43,319 --> 01:08:46,399
Yeah, so, so, so everybody is 
now in the awkward situation. 

1102
01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:50,800
So they and and they can't they,
they twice tried to talk to La 

1103
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:54,240
Calma and meet up with him, and 
on both occasions he refused. 

1104
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:59,200
So they had to then call John 
back in and say, look, please, 

1105
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:01,520
can you somehow make contact 
with this man? 

1106
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:03,439
You know, you've had a long 
relationship with him. 

1107
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:06,560
And John did. 
John managed to organise a 

1108
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:09,000
secret meeting with him in 
Blantyre in Malawi. 

1109
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:12,600
And. 
And he pleaded for our release 

1110
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:15,800
and argued for our release. 
And incredibly, John recorded 

1111
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:17,720
that. 
And he's giving me a transcript 

1112
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:19,279
of that. 
And I can tell you it's an 

1113
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:21,720
amazing thing to read. 
Yeah. 

1114
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:23,640
It's in this file here right 
next to me. 

1115
01:09:25,399 --> 01:09:27,439
So. 
And eventually, eventually the 

1116
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:29,200
comma says, OK, you can have 
your family. 

1117
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:31,840
I mean, just like that, you 
know, after about an hour and a 

1118
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,640
half of talking. 
But in the, in the discussion, 

1119
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:38,040
he pointed out to South Africa 
that, you know, you, you, you, 

1120
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:41,120
you are being deceived by, by 
Mozambique. 

1121
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:45,279
We, we've got people planted in 
for limo and we know that in 

1122
01:09:45,279 --> 01:09:48,800
fact, far from them with drawing
the troops in the area where the

1123
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:51,840
family's been held captive, 
they're increasing the troops 

1124
01:09:52,279 --> 01:09:55,200
and they plan to attack it and 
they plan to annihilate that 

1125
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:59,440
crowd, including the family. 
And in fact, a bounty had been 

1126
01:09:59,440 --> 01:10:02,080
put on our heads for anybody who
could kill us. 

1127
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:05,680
So. 
So John now comes back to South 

1128
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,480
Africa, says great news, they've
agreed to release the family. 

1129
01:10:08,480 --> 01:10:11,360
But bad news, you're walking 
into a trap. 

1130
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:13,400
You know, you could, can you, 
Can you imagine? 

1131
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:16,320
South Africa's now just started 
to negotiate with the ANC, 

1132
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:21,280
starting to talk to Nelson 
Mandela and suddenly it now gets

1133
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:25,120
trapped into the middle of a, of
a gunfight in Mozambique. 

1134
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:29,400
The world would have said South 
Africa's attacking Mozambique. 

1135
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:31,200
You know, it would have been an 
absolute disaster. 

1136
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:35,080
So this, so this is where Marius
now comes into the scene. 

1137
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:37,920
So Marius then gets told, look, 
you better get to the to the 

1138
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:41,240
border, the Kruger National Park
where there's a military base 

1139
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:44,480
and start intercepting the radio
messages that are coming from 

1140
01:10:44,480 --> 01:10:46,880
Philima and find out whether 
this is true. 

1141
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:50,880
So that's what he does. 
He has to 1st decode, decipher 

1142
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:55,400
the the messages. 
This is all still classified 

1143
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:56,960
stuff, but that these guys don't
see. 

1144
01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:59,960
I think so much time has passed 
by that they don't mind talking 

1145
01:10:59,960 --> 01:11:02,560
about it now. 
So I think it's a little bit of 

1146
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:06,760
a embarrassment to them. 
That would be an embarrassment 

1147
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:09,520
to Mozambique to know that South
Africa cracked their codes. 

1148
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:13,600
And anyway, he does. 
He starts to create what they 

1149
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:17,040
call situation maps and within 
two days he discovers that, yes,

1150
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:20,720
it's true. 
There's about 1000 troops 

1151
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:23,840
assembling around the area where
we are held captive and they're 

1152
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:28,000
all converging on it. 
So this, this then gets ferried 

1153
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:31,280
back to foreign affairs and then
the powers that be and say, 

1154
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:36,240
well, we, we better we, we, we 
do, we simply can't go. 

1155
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:39,360
And, and you know, this is too 
dangerous the situation. 

1156
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:45,640
So, so a meeting is in a range. 
This is where Culley, who was 

1157
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:50,760
head of head of, of military 
intelligence, Marius worked for 

1158
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:55,600
military intelligence and Culley
was his boss, basically 

1159
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:57,880
responsible military 
intelligence for the East, East 

1160
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:01,920
Africa. 
He, he gets told he must go and 

1161
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:05,640
meet with Chasana and present 
him with with Maurice's maps and

1162
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:08,160
this evidence, which he does in 
Maputo. 

1163
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:13,440
This is all pretty amazing stuff
going on in the background, 

1164
01:12:13,440 --> 01:12:17,720
which you know, nobody would 
even dream about or imagine 

1165
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:20,760
happening. 
So Chasana, President Chasana 

1166
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:24,360
says, OK, all right, we've been 
caught out and, and I don't 

1167
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:26,920
necessarily know exactly what my
commanders on the ground are 

1168
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:29,600
planning. 
So the only way to be certain is

1169
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:32,400
you'd better fly up there. 
I'll give permission for you to 

1170
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:36,000
fly there up to Verm Kulis, 
which is where the the nearest 

1171
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,640
Fredemo base is. 
And, and you can meet the 

1172
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:41,400
commander there. 
I'll give you all the letters 

1173
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,560
required and you can check for 
yourself that the troops are 

1174
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:46,840
withdrawing. 
And so that so Kali does that. 

1175
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:51,720
And so these these three men, 
John, Marius and Kali literally 

1176
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:54,920
saved our lives. 
I've had the great children 

1177
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:59,240
you're meeting, every one of 
them, incredible men and I so 

1178
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:01,440
proud of what they do you. 
Know what it is, Dave, Dave, I 

1179
01:13:01,440 --> 01:13:04,960
gotta you know what it is. 
It's like a Tom Clancy novel, 

1180
01:13:05,440 --> 01:13:06,960
you know, and, and you think 
about. 

1181
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:09,080
I don't know if that I don't 
know if you're familiar with Tom

1182
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:12,360
Clancy or not, but but like, you
know, his novels, they, they, 

1183
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:14,640
they, they have all these 
characters that are all over the

1184
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:17,720
place and, and, and you don't 
really know what's happening. 

1185
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:20,200
And then almost in every single 
novel that I've read of his, 

1186
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:24,360
they all converge in one in one 
way or another, or they link up 

1187
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:28,680
in one way or another with when,
when, when, whatever the action 

1188
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,880
is or whatever the the 
resolution is, it's, it's all 

1189
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:36,200
like a Tom Clancy novel. 
The, the difference being the 

1190
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:40,200
fact that you have so many of 
the details from so many of the 

1191
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:45,720
different pieces of the board at
this point here is astonishing. 

1192
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:48,840
Like you talk about the universe
or God or whatever you want to 

1193
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:52,400
call it, saying, OK, this family
is going through this ordeal, 

1194
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:56,320
but they're gonna be OK. 
Remarkably, the kids are gonna 

1195
01:13:56,320 --> 01:13:57,760
be OK. 
I mean, you're talking to me 

1196
01:13:57,760 --> 01:13:59,280
about it today. 
We know it's a happy ending. 

1197
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:01,160
At this point, I'm gonna put in 
the intro that it's a happy 

1198
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:02,760
ending in that regard. 
I don't know. 

1199
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:05,160
Maybe happy is not the right 
word, but there's a resolution 

1200
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:09,160
to it. 
And, and, and and yet you get to

1201
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:14,080
see all of the different pieces 
on the board moving in 

1202
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:18,680
retrospect. 
And that is an unbelievable, I, 

1203
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:20,200
I don't know if you call it a 
gift. 

1204
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:22,640
It's an unbelievable fact that, 
that that's the case. 

1205
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:25,840
I, I, I'm astounded by the fact 
that you have so many of these 

1206
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:27,880
details on, on what's going on 
behind the scenes. 

1207
01:14:28,480 --> 01:14:31,400
Yeah, as a family, we, we 
realize we are just beyond 

1208
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:34,640
measure. 
Can maybe I'll just quickly try 

1209
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:38,200
and sum up everything because we
we're getting into, I'm getting 

1210
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:41,200
into a lot of detail. 
So we were rescued. 

1211
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:46,080
So the, the, the, the, the, the,
the, the ceasefire came into 

1212
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:47,480
being. 
It was the first ever between 

1213
01:14:47,480 --> 01:14:51,480
the Norma and Flima, and we were
rescued in a you know, if you 

1214
01:14:51,480 --> 01:14:53,800
want a whole nother little 
subsect to the dramatic thing, 

1215
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:56,240
the most incredibly dramatic 
risk you're imaginable. 

1216
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:58,400
Yeah. 
No, no, no, we need to hear the 

1217
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:00,800
rescue, Dave. 
We need to hear the we got to 

1218
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:03,320
hear the rescue buddy. 
Like what the heck? 

1219
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:05,640
How did it happen? 
And and what was? 

1220
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:07,600
Yeah, no, we got to hear the 
rescue brother. 

1221
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:11,880
OK, well, I want to tell you 
about the greatest miracle of 

1222
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:15,440
mystery of all is that I ended 
up going back to the place from 

1223
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:17,440
from where these attacks had 
been launched. 

1224
01:15:17,440 --> 01:15:20,760
But that's that's jumping ahead 
8 years of. 

1225
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:22,760
Course you have. 
Oh, my gosh. 

1226
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:24,320
OK, Yeah, yeah. 
So. 

1227
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:27,120
So we, we, we of course know 
nothing about this. 

1228
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:30,120
We, we are completely oblivious 
to, to any of this happening. 

1229
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:37,800
And but we, let me just say on 
the Saturday, I can't remember 

1230
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:40,960
the exact date on the Saturday, 
lots of airplanes flew over the 

1231
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:47,360
camp and, and, and unusually, 
when any aeroplane flew anywhere

1232
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:51,920
vaguely near the camp where we 
were held, if you want to look 

1233
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:55,080
it up on a map, it's near 
Promeni in Mozambique. 

1234
01:15:56,520 --> 01:16:00,040
They would, they would shoot at 
these aeroplanes with everything

1235
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:03,400
that they had. 
I mean, it was crazy, but they 

1236
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:05,640
never shot at any of these 
aeroplanes on this day. 

1237
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:09,480
So we asked Patricia that 
evening, you know, why? 

1238
01:16:09,480 --> 01:16:11,320
And he said, because those 
people are going to go and talk 

1239
01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:13,240
about you. 
What now? 

1240
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:15,720
Why? 
Why are they doing that sort of 

1241
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:17,280
thing? 
You know, like, can that be 

1242
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:19,000
possible? 
That was the first glimmer that 

1243
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:20,680
we had that something was 
happening. 

1244
01:16:22,480 --> 01:16:24,760
In fact, in fact, he got a 
little bit screwed up. 

1245
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:29,680
They were actually, that was 
probably Kali flying up to Bill 

1246
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:32,680
and Kulas. 
And and it wasn't they weren't 

1247
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:34,440
talking about peace or anything 
like that. 

1248
01:16:34,440 --> 01:16:39,360
There was simply that situation,
right the the next day, the 

1249
01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:42,960
Sunday, the commander came along
to, to us. 

1250
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:46,240
And when I say speaks to us, 
it's obviously all through 

1251
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:49,640
Patricia. 
He said, pack, you're going to 

1252
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:52,680
be going get ready. 
I mean, just like that, you 

1253
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:56,160
know, after after seven weeks, 
like with no warning whatsoever,

1254
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:59,120
suddenly this message gets 
dumped on us. 

1255
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:02,880
So we didn't have much to pack. 
Within 5 minutes we were packed 

1256
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:05,800
and and Monday came and nothing 
happened. 

1257
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:07,200
Tuesday came and nothing 
happened. 

1258
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:08,640
Wednesday came and nothing 
happened. 

1259
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:14,080
So this whole drama in the 
background was unfolding of or 

1260
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:16,120
is the camp. 
Little do we know that there 

1261
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:17,960
were 1000 troops approaching the
camp. 

1262
01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:19,480
Thank goodness we never knew 
that. 

1263
01:17:19,480 --> 01:17:21,400
Sometimes it's best not to know 
what's happening. 

1264
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:28,200
Anyway, on the on the Wednesday 
night the commander comes across

1265
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:34,760
and says tomorrow you leave and 
and at lunchtime at on on the 

1266
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:37,760
Thursday, which just happened to
be my birthday, amazingly my 

1267
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:40,400
39th birthday. 
So we ran aground on Sis's 

1268
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:45,280
birthday and released on mine. 
But did you know it? 

1269
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:46,600
Did you know it was your 
birthday? 

1270
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:50,560
Sorry, did you know when was 
your? 

1271
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:51,640
Birthday like had you been 
keeping? 

1272
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:53,400
Track of the date you didn't 
know. 

1273
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:55,480
OK, so. 
No, no, they would have had. 

1274
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:57,720
No, that's coincidental. 
Yeah. 

1275
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:03,880
So, yeah. 
So they assembled the numero Uno

1276
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:09,640
group, the the number one 
fighting group, which was led by

1277
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:13,760
a guy that we'd actually grown 
had a lot of affection for 

1278
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:16,480
called pretty face. 
And he had this extraordinary 

1279
01:18:16,480 --> 01:18:19,520
girl like face, but he was their
number one fighter. 

1280
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:22,000
He was probably about 16-17 
years old. 

1281
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:24,560
He got he has another funny side
of the story. 

1282
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:27,360
This I'm kind of like sound like
I'm dropping little tidbits in 

1283
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:29,960
for people to buy the book to 
find the back story. 

1284
01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:33,880
But but he got shot during that 
second attack and he had a 

1285
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:37,400
bullet lodged in his backside 
and he asked Sandy to please 

1286
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:40,360
remove it to operate on him and 
remove it. 

1287
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:44,160
Mercifully she she there's a 
funny story about that. 

1288
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:48,480
But anyway, he. 
Good thing she knew how to, you 

1289
01:18:48,480 --> 01:18:49,920
know, handle. 
Mollusks that never happened, 

1290
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:51,320
that never happened, thank 
goodness. 

1291
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:56,480
She as, as Sandy said, she, she 
she studies mollusks and they 

1292
01:18:56,480 --> 01:19:00,280
don't have spines, so she 
doesn't just now the nerves get 

1293
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:05,200
from the spine into the legs. 
So I think, I think a sense of 

1294
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:07,640
humor is an important thing to 
get you through these things as 

1295
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:09,080
well. 
So. 

1296
01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:15,640
So, yeah. 
So anyway, we set off and that 

1297
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:17,640
night, the night before, Sandy 
and I asked her, you know, which

1298
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:18,640
way do you think we're going to 
go? 

1299
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:21,800
So we, we assume we would go to 
the nearest headland, which is 

1300
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:25,280
near Khomeini. 
That's Cape battered the Falsa, 

1301
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:30,000
which has got a lighthouse on 
it, which, which needs to save 

1302
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:34,600
what's not working. 
And but to our amazement, we 

1303
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:37,120
ended up walking north back 
towards where the yacht is. 

1304
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:41,080
And we, we spend the, the whole 
afternoon. 

1305
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:44,840
We walk up along the beach or 
just inland from the beach sort 

1306
01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:46,960
of. 
So the, the beach has got, 

1307
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:50,880
you've got the beach a little 
primary June, small low June, 

1308
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:55,360
and then a probably about a 500 
meter wide flay behind it, then 

1309
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:57,080
an escarpment with forests on 
it. 

1310
01:19:57,080 --> 01:19:58,720
And then the area where we 
lived. 

1311
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:00,520
That's sort of like the 
topography there. 

1312
01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:06,360
So around about 4:00 that 
afternoon, we found ourselves 

1313
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:11,920
standing on the primary dune and
they'd set up a radio under, 

1314
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:19,080
under some trees nearby. 
We we knew they had a radio and 

1315
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:22,120
and every time they spoke about 
the radio, Patricia always did 

1316
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:24,880
this with his hands. 
And we assumed it was some old 

1317
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:27,560
Second World War thing, but it 
actually turns out it was a 

1318
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:31,120
state-of-the-art British 
scrambling radio that 

1319
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:34,640
automatically mixed messages. 
I don't know who they were 

1320
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:37,280
talking to, but indirectly they 
would. 

1321
01:20:37,400 --> 01:20:42,240
They must have been talking to 
Kali or linked up with Kali in 

1322
01:20:42,240 --> 01:20:45,520
Voluntoulos. 
So we're standing there, but now

1323
01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:47,160
and still nobody's talking to 
us. 

1324
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:51,000
Nobody's saying anything. 
We, we knew we'd walk through a 

1325
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:54,040
minefield because we were 
following a path that was marked

1326
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:57,880
with, with, with grass tied in, 
in knots. 

1327
01:20:59,920 --> 01:21:03,400
And we're looking out the sea. 
And you think, you know what, 

1328
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:04,920
what on earth is going to happen
next? 

1329
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:09,600
You know, I don't know. 
We, I don't think we were 

1330
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:14,360
thinking rationally. 
We were sort of like half 

1331
01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:18,320
expecting a submarine to appear 
out of the sea to be honest. 

1332
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:21,560
You. 
Know I looked out to sea and I 

1333
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:24,360
could see there was I could see 
the derricks of a ship going by 

1334
01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:27,200
way just on the horizon. 
You know, when, when you have 

1335
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:32,440
very cold water, sometimes the, 
the, the, the, the, the ship, it

1336
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:35,840
causes a lensing effect and it 
elongates it above the horizon. 

1337
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:40,160
And, and I could see the ship 
was hitting S we and after about

1338
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:43,600
50 minutes looked again and it 
was hitting N It turned around 

1339
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:45,440
and I said said, you're not 
going to believe it, but I think

1340
01:21:45,440 --> 01:21:47,200
that's the South African Navy 
out there. 

1341
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:51,000
Can't be. 
I mean, that's actually really 

1342
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:53,560
frightening to think that your 
Navy's come into this. 

1343
01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:59,000
So, you know, we, we were an 
incredibly private family and, 

1344
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:03,560
and we were absolutely terrified
at the thought of, of, of 

1345
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:07,160
suddenly becoming sort of 
exposed publicly. 

1346
01:22:07,440 --> 01:22:10,560
I mean, apart from the fact that
we, we felt very humbled and, 

1347
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:14,080
and, and guilty for what, what 
we caused to happen. 

1348
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:19,640
Yes. 
Anyway, soon after that we, we 

1349
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:29,880
then by then it was evening the,
the we, we that we went down 

1350
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:33,080
into actually onto the beach and
walked along in the water. 

1351
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:39,400
I still remember the beautiful 
scent of the, of the, of the 

1352
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:42,440
dampness flowing off the land 
and the warm sea water that we 

1353
01:22:42,440 --> 01:22:45,640
waded through. 
It's an extraordinary beautiful 

1354
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:48,720
area of the, I mean, like you 
talk about making a film, it's 

1355
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:50,720
the most beautiful area that you
can make a film in. 

1356
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:55,120
You know, he walked probably 
about another 5 or 6 kilometers 

1357
01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:58,200
into a place where they'd built 
three huge piles of timber. 

1358
01:22:59,120 --> 01:23:03,480
And Patricia took us behind the 
sort of primary dune and and he 

1359
01:23:03,480 --> 01:23:10,360
made a fire and and he roasted 
some coconut for us because he 

1360
01:23:10,360 --> 01:23:12,400
knew this was a treat that we 
really enjoyed. 

1361
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:17,680
And but then it was dark and we 
could see the fires had been 

1362
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:21,320
lit. 
And the next thing Captain Hook 

1363
01:23:21,320 --> 01:23:22,880
would say, Hey, Patricia, 
Patricia. 

1364
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:28,040
So Patricia went running off and
soon he came running back and 

1365
01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:30,080
said, come, you must come. 
Quick, quick, quick, quick, man.

1366
01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:31,720
Come out to sea. 
Come quick, quick, quick. 

1367
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:37,080
And he grabs our, our stuff, 
the, the little few bags that we

1368
01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:41,320
had. 
And, and we sort of entered this

1369
01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:45,560
like a wild scene of this party,
these three giant fires, you 

1370
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:49,000
know, about each about the size 
almost of a house burning and 

1371
01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:54,400
everybody sort of milling around
and, and, and, and we were just 

1372
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:59,720
left there. 
Patricia disappeared and we just

1373
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:03,080
literally left standing. 
And the next thing, a guy with a

1374
01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:07,800
big beard in in a wetsuit comes 
out and and he he pushes out, 

1375
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:10,360
puts out his hand to shake mine.
And he says, Oh, you, Mr. 

1376
01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:13,960
Muller, I said, I said. 
Yes. 

1377
01:24:14,320 --> 01:24:16,120
He's just bored. 
We're glad to see you. 

1378
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:20,520
This is that. 
We know that was Gavin. 

1379
01:24:21,360 --> 01:24:24,560
Gavin, one of the Rickies at the
Swamishore. 

1380
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:29,800
Anyway, they then brought a big,
big ski boat. 

1381
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:33,920
A big high-powered ski boat came
screaming out of the darkness up

1382
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:37,160
the beach. 
This is all very spectacular 

1383
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:39,720
stuff because this is all 
happening with blazes of 

1384
01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:43,840
phosphorescent spray and things 
we were put into into sort of 

1385
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:48,560
flirtation jackets and had had 
chemical light sticks tied to us

1386
01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:51,920
and. 
OK, I got, I got, I got, I got a

1387
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:55,000
bunch of questions I got to ask 
here, like I got a just a bunch.

1388
01:24:55,240 --> 01:24:58,840
First off, as you're taking the 
journey, you had been there for 

1389
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:01,400
weeks. 
Were you happy for the change of

1390
01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:03,800
scenery? 
I, I, I'm curious about that. 

1391
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:10,360
The other thing I'm curious 
about is did you with all the 

1392
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:14,160
imaginations and all of the 
things of of of hope that we're 

1393
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:19,440
still there as you're on this 
journey, are you optimistic that

1394
01:25:20,480 --> 01:25:24,760
it's gonna turn out OK? 
Or by that point was there, you 

1395
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:26,200
know, it's like all bets are 
off. 

1396
01:25:26,200 --> 01:25:28,280
You have no idea what's about to
happen. 

1397
01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:34,600
And in all of the imaginings 
that you had, did you think that

1398
01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:36,640
there was even a chance it would
work out that way? 

1399
01:25:36,640 --> 01:25:39,960
And were the three fires 
basically a signal as to where 

1400
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:43,000
the drop off was going to be? 
Yeah. 

1401
01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:45,480
Well, well, it was, it was 
really obvious that the three 

1402
01:25:45,480 --> 01:25:48,640
fires were the signal for the 
drop off where we, we, we had no

1403
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:54,360
idea of the magnitude of of, of 
what it had taken to get to that

1404
01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:56,440
point, what was happening behind
the scenes. 

1405
01:25:57,400 --> 01:26:00,240
Yes, we, we were catatonic at 
that point. 

1406
01:26:00,920 --> 01:26:06,080
We, we, we, we, we, we knew that
if we showed any emotion, if we,

1407
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:09,000
if we let go in any way of our 
emotion, we would just 

1408
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:11,520
absolutely burst and, and 
disintegrate. 

1409
01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:13,800
And in fact, that happened the 
next day. 

1410
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:17,600
But that's that's. 
Yeah, magic testing. 

1411
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:23,160
Ahead and the story. 
So, so, yeah, so we, we so we, 

1412
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:27,920
we on the ski boat and then we 
just go blasting out to sea, you

1413
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:31,680
know, on this, on this bed of, 
of phosphorescent spray. 

1414
01:26:32,160 --> 01:26:35,000
If you've seen the if you've 
seen the whale in in the in the 

1415
01:26:35,480 --> 01:26:38,680
story of π what's it that that 
film about π the. 

1416
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:41,640
Life of Pi, the Life of. 
Π it's just that whole whale 

1417
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:43,320
jumping out. 
I mean it was, it literally was 

1418
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:48,240
like that. 
And, and we were facing 

1419
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:50,080
backwards OFT. 
And so there was this 

1420
01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:54,040
phosphorescent wake and, and at 
the far in the distance, slowly 

1421
01:26:54,040 --> 01:26:56,160
this receding 3 glimmers of 
light. 

1422
01:26:56,600 --> 01:27:01,920
I can't tell you how sad I felt 
at that moment because there is 

1423
01:27:01,920 --> 01:27:04,720
such a thing, you know, these, 
these people had really 

1424
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:06,280
protected us. 
And I know there's a thing 

1425
01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:09,360
called Stockholm syndrome. 
There's also a thing called 

1426
01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:13,480
syndrome where the, where, where
the opposite happens as well. 

1427
01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:16,600
Now, I think, I think we all had
a pretty big dose of Stockholm 

1428
01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:20,800
syndrome and lemur syndrome and 
and we were absolutely 

1429
01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:24,760
traumatized at the thought that 
these guys were going back into 

1430
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:28,640
the war because we'd actually 
had grown to love them and they 

1431
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:31,320
had actually literally protected
us with their lives. 

1432
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:33,040
In fact, some of them lost their
lives. 

1433
01:27:33,640 --> 01:27:36,680
I'm, I'm sad to say, because of 
our presence there. 

1434
01:27:38,480 --> 01:27:43,920
So that was probably one of the 
saddest moments of my life was 

1435
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:48,400
that image And I, I can still, I
can still see it before me now. 

1436
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:51,840
Anyway, we did the kids. 
Feel that way too. 

1437
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:55,200
Did the kids feel that way too, 
Dave? 

1438
01:27:56,280 --> 01:27:58,400
No, I mean the. 
Tents of this is all just a 

1439
01:27:58,400 --> 01:28:02,920
great big adventure carried on. 
Yeah, no, but so like, but it's 

1440
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:06,280
an adventure every everybody 
always worries about adventures.

1441
01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:08,320
So. 
The the the children. 

1442
01:28:08,440 --> 01:28:12,360
No, I I'm more, I'm more curious
about the children like like 

1443
01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:15,200
were these friends? 
Now that they're like, oh, we're

1444
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:16,520
never going to see our friends 
again. 

1445
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:18,040
That's. 
Not, that's not. 

1446
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:19,800
Like like do they feel the same 
way? 

1447
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:29,080
No, no, no, no. 
Now I think you know, we, we, 

1448
01:28:29,080 --> 01:28:32,520
we, we, we arrived at the, at 
the Toffenburg, which is a South

1449
01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:36,720
African navy's replenishment and
hospital ship and, and, and we 

1450
01:28:36,720 --> 01:28:38,680
dramatically welcomed on board 
the ship. 

1451
01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:42,280
I, it's, it's blacked out. 
We get raised up next to it, 

1452
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:45,400
come up blue and boom, suddenly 
all the lights come on and 

1453
01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:50,320
there's this whole crew cheering
and, and we just, we just no 

1454
01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:54,240
emotion at all. 
I, I, I feel very bad about that

1455
01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:57,920
to this day. 
We were almost instantly then 

1456
01:28:57,920 --> 01:29:03,000
taken into the into the hospital
portion of the ship where two 

1457
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:07,240
subtitles had been psychologists
rather had been were on the ship

1458
01:29:07,240 --> 01:29:14,080
because they knew we would be in
a state of trauma and and and 

1459
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:16,160
yeah. 
And they basically protected us 

1460
01:29:16,160 --> 01:29:19,920
and and over the next three days
we sailed back to South Africa. 

1461
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:27,120
The they they checked out the 
children as well and they 

1462
01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:28,920
declared the children to be 
fine. 

1463
01:29:29,440 --> 01:29:34,480
We, we weren't. 
So, yeah, so that's what's 

1464
01:29:34,720 --> 01:29:37,880
what's relevant about, about the
next day or so, which which 

1465
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:43,800
maybe some men, you know, we we 
kind of pretend to be very, very

1466
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:46,360
strong and brave and stoic and 
all this sort of thing. 

1467
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:55,160
So the next day we sit down with
the the two psychologists and, 

1468
01:29:56,400 --> 01:30:00,160
and they say to us now these are
specialists in in military 

1469
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:03,680
trauma. 
One of them, interestingly, is 

1470
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:06,360
now in Canada in your part of 
the world. 

1471
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:10,840
And there's a story to tell 
about that, which you might find

1472
01:30:10,960 --> 01:30:15,280
interesting. 
Yeah, they, they say to us, just

1473
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:19,080
start telling the story. 
What happened, you know, from 

1474
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:22,640
the beginning, just start. 
And so we, Sandy and I, both 

1475
01:30:22,640 --> 01:30:26,080
start telling the story. 
And we get to the point where 

1476
01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:28,080
that old couple were, were were 
killed. 

1477
01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:32,600
And, and to my absolute 
amazement, words won't come out 

1478
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:35,880
of my mouth. 
Just absolutely nothing that I 

1479
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:39,200
could do could make me say what 
had actually happened. 

1480
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:42,760
And and we just collapse in 
tears, both of us, you know, we 

1481
01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:47,200
just, like melt inwardly. 
And I think that was the point 

1482
01:30:47,200 --> 01:30:50,080
where we realized, whoa, we 
actually are quite sick. 

1483
01:30:52,360 --> 01:30:54,680
And Henry, the guy said, OK, 
just skip it. 

1484
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:57,280
Carry on, you know, and, and we 
came to a few of these like 

1485
01:30:57,280 --> 01:31:00,880
roadblocks along the way. 
Absolutely. 

1486
01:31:01,280 --> 01:31:04,880
But yeah, they spoke to us and 
they, they essentially gave us, 

1487
01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:08,360
you know, told us what would 
happen and, and you know how we 

1488
01:31:08,360 --> 01:31:12,320
would feel. 
I would, I wouldn't have thought

1489
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:16,080
it possible that your body could
take control or your mind could 

1490
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:18,600
take control of your body to the
extent that it did. 

1491
01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:20,960
You know where you can't stand 
anymore? 

1492
01:31:21,160 --> 01:31:24,040
You just, you just collapse on 
the ground. 

1493
01:31:24,160 --> 01:31:26,800
You can't talk, you can't say 
anything. 

1494
01:31:26,800 --> 01:31:28,360
You're just so utterly 
overwhelmed. 

1495
01:31:29,320 --> 01:31:33,040
I must be careful because I can 
feel it, you know, off the city 

1496
01:31:33,040 --> 01:31:37,080
some years. 
I, I, I, I can feel the, I can 

1497
01:31:37,080 --> 01:31:39,840
feel, you know, within me, the 
things coming up. 

1498
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:43,440
So that was kind of difficult to
get through. 

1499
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:46,120
And then a particularly horrific
thing happened once we got to 

1500
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:51,440
East London where some well 
meaning person showed me 

1501
01:31:51,440 --> 01:31:54,920
photographs of, of the yacht, 
which had been burnt out up at 

1502
01:31:54,920 --> 01:31:56,920
that point. 
I still had this crazy notion 

1503
01:31:56,920 --> 01:31:59,080
we'd go back and say, say they 
got back. 

1504
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:01,320
You know, I couldn't believe 
that the yacht was going to. 

1505
01:32:02,960 --> 01:32:05,560
I couldn't, you know, this is 10
years of my life and. 

1506
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:09,720
Geographically, I, I, I, I got 
asked the question 

1507
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:11,320
geographically because I feel 
like you're going to know the 

1508
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:14,280
answer. 
The, the, the zone of where you 

1509
01:32:14,280 --> 01:32:17,520
got picked up, the drop zone is 
in the, you know, where, where 

1510
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:19,640
you got picked up 
geographically. 

1511
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:21,120
How far away would that have 
been? 

1512
01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:24,480
Is that on the same beach just, 
you know, a number of kilometers

1513
01:32:24,480 --> 01:32:26,280
away? 
Is it a different beach? 

1514
01:32:26,280 --> 01:32:29,520
How far away was that from where
the yacht or the burnt husk of 

1515
01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:33,160
the yacht would would have been?
It it was probably about 50 

1516
01:32:33,160 --> 01:32:34,920
kilometers away from it. 
Yeah. 

1517
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:36,840
To the South, yeah. 
Really. 

1518
01:32:37,320 --> 01:32:39,960
Yeah, not that far. 
No, not that far. 

1519
01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:40,360
Half. 
Hour. 

1520
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:46,640
Not even a half hour drive. 
Yeah, no, you could drive up the

1521
01:32:46,840 --> 01:32:48,720
road. 
No, but I'm, I'm saying I'm just

1522
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:51,440
giving context for the audience.
Like, you know, there's, there's

1523
01:32:51,440 --> 01:32:53,880
a lot of Americans who listen to
this and from a mile stand and 

1524
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:57,480
mile standpoint. 
So we, we, we kind of, we, we, 

1525
01:32:57,560 --> 01:33:04,360
we gleaned from Patricia that 
it's somewhere in the midst of 

1526
01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:07,720
all of this. 
So we, we would in the evenings,

1527
01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:09,920
in the cool of the evenings, we 
would sit around the kitchen 

1528
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:13,120
fire so that the cooking was 
just done on open fires. 

1529
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:16,440
And, and it was sort of, it was 
a warm convivial. 

1530
01:33:16,440 --> 01:33:18,960
It was an open thing where 
people could, where Patricia 

1531
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:22,520
felt he could talk to us, I 
think without, without people 

1532
01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:26,640
being suspicious that he was 
passing on secrets, right. 

1533
01:33:27,080 --> 01:33:30,160
And, and one evening he said to 
us, there's some bad news. 

1534
01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:36,320
People came and, and there were 
Renama soldiers looking after 

1535
01:33:36,320 --> 01:33:39,080
the yacht. 
They shot them, killed them and 

1536
01:33:39,080 --> 01:33:44,480
they took the yacht. 
And we, we kind of thought, you 

1537
01:33:44,480 --> 01:33:47,120
know, maybe somebody salvage the
yacht or someone's grabbed the 

1538
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:49,840
yacht, maybe the people from the
island or some, or something 

1539
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:52,520
like this. 
The fact that we, we don't 

1540
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:55,720
actually know people who go 
around shooting people in war 

1541
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:58,800
didn't, didn't strike. 
It didn't, didn't, we didn't 

1542
01:33:58,800 --> 01:34:01,480
realize that at the time. 
What, what had actually happened

1543
01:34:01,480 --> 01:34:06,680
is that I think Freddemo must 
have attacked them to try and 

1544
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:08,600
get hold of the yacht 
themselves. 

1545
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:12,000
And anyway, I don't know what 
happened. 

1546
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:14,960
They, it, it looks from photos 
I've seen, it looks as though 

1547
01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:19,400
they, I've either fired an RPG 
into, into the yacht or, or, or 

1548
01:34:19,720 --> 01:34:22,760
a hand grenade or whatever. 
But it, it completely burnt out 

1549
01:34:23,440 --> 01:34:26,520
and it's, it's just disappeared 
beneath the, the sand. 

1550
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:32,320
It's not there anymore, but 
this, this, this well meaning 

1551
01:34:32,320 --> 01:34:35,320
person had shown me a photograph
of the yacht burnt out on the 

1552
01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:39,160
beach. 
And and that night we were still

1553
01:34:39,160 --> 01:34:43,240
on the on we were still sleeping
on the on the toffer Berg the 

1554
01:34:43,320 --> 01:34:46,760
the ship because I wanted to 
keep an eye on us. 

1555
01:34:47,360 --> 01:34:51,120
And in the middle of the night, 
I woke up and, and I just, I had

1556
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:56,040
to, I don't know, I woke up and 
I knew I had to get to that 

1557
01:34:56,040 --> 01:34:59,200
photograph because I had it, it 
was on the table next to me. 

1558
01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:03,320
And Sandy was there as well. 
And, and I tried to stand up and

1559
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:06,840
I just, I just fell down. 
I literally became this like 

1560
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:09,160
little molten person on the 
floor. 

1561
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:13,120
Sandy was extremely traumatized 
by that because she didn't know 

1562
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:15,000
what was happening. 
I couldn't talk or anything. 

1563
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:17,120
It was all. 
Oh yeah. 

1564
01:35:17,120 --> 01:35:20,600
But the, the, the funniest thing
is that while this was 

1565
01:35:20,600 --> 01:35:24,480
happening, I was, I was very 
aware of, I was sort of like 

1566
01:35:24,520 --> 01:35:27,640
outside of my body and I was 
sort of like looking at myself 

1567
01:35:27,640 --> 01:35:29,960
on the floor. 
You know, this is like stupid 

1568
01:35:29,960 --> 01:35:31,800
behaviour. 
You know, David, get up. 

1569
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:33,560
You know, are you doing this 
sort of thing? 

1570
01:35:33,880 --> 01:35:36,880
You know, then so, so it was 
like literally almost like an 

1571
01:35:36,880 --> 01:35:40,800
out of body experience. 
And very, very melodramatically,

1572
01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:43,680
I crawled my way up the cupboard
and and grabbed hold of the 

1573
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:47,280
photograph and showed it to 
Sandy and, and she understood. 

1574
01:35:47,280 --> 01:35:50,680
And we just hugged each other 
and basically cried ourselves to

1575
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:55,400
sleep. 
And the next day we told the the

1576
01:35:55,400 --> 01:35:59,040
guys treating us about this. 
And I said, yeah, they should 

1577
01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:03,240
have warned us that that would 
happen and that that that has 

1578
01:36:03,240 --> 01:36:07,480
happened a couple of times since
very unexpectedly on on various 

1579
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:11,000
occasions. 
It's been 30 something. 

1580
01:36:11,000 --> 01:36:13,240
Years since the Internet, 
because you're sort of coming to

1581
01:36:13,240 --> 01:36:18,360
some of the healing process now.
I I, I, I really do want to talk

1582
01:36:18,360 --> 01:36:20,240
about the healing process. 
I don't care that we're over. 

1583
01:36:20,240 --> 01:36:23,720
This is one of the most 
astounding stories I've ever 

1584
01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:26,120
heard. 
And I knew it coming in, but 

1585
01:36:26,120 --> 01:36:32,000
hearing you tell it, Dave, is 
just, it's astounding to me. 

1586
01:36:32,080 --> 01:36:35,280
I, I, I want to know over the 
years, you say if it's happened 

1587
01:36:35,840 --> 01:36:40,040
a few times over the years, It's
been 30 something years since, 

1588
01:36:41,080 --> 01:36:44,720
you know, clearly a giant part 
of your life, not just because 

1589
01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:47,080
of the book, but because it, it,
it affects your life. 

1590
01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:48,800
It changes the trajectory of 
your life. 

1591
01:36:49,880 --> 01:36:53,880
How many times maybe, but but 
more importantly, when was the 

1592
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:55,640
last time it happened? 
Because I mean, when guys are 

1593
01:36:55,640 --> 01:36:58,560
healing from stuff, you know, 
there's not necessarily a 

1594
01:36:58,560 --> 01:37:01,920
timetable and, and, and also 
sometimes you don't really know 

1595
01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:05,320
when the body is going to do 
something that either jumps it 

1596
01:37:05,320 --> 01:37:09,360
towards healing or perhaps 
baggage shows up that you didn't

1597
01:37:09,360 --> 01:37:12,960
realize was there. 
I'm curious, you know, we're 30 

1598
01:37:12,960 --> 01:37:15,880
something years later. 
Are you still healing? 

1599
01:37:15,880 --> 01:37:18,160
And and when was the last time 
kind of you had one of these 

1600
01:37:18,160 --> 01:37:22,440
sort of insights? 
You know, I'm definitely still 

1601
01:37:22,440 --> 01:37:24,680
healing. 
I mean, I might be talking to 

1602
01:37:24,680 --> 01:37:30,600
you with a :) and that, but that
that hides a fair amount of pain

1603
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:35,680
as well. 
So the the last time it happened

1604
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:39,560
was OK. 
So again, really difficult to 

1605
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:41,560
give a simple answer to some of 
these questions. 

1606
01:37:41,840 --> 01:37:45,200
So one of one of the things that
so we, we just set about 

1607
01:37:45,200 --> 01:37:49,040
rebuilding our lives and you 
know, but but you also realize 

1608
01:37:49,040 --> 01:37:51,440
that you have been blessed by 
being alive. 

1609
01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:55,640
You, you, you know, you, you're 
in this absolutely unique 

1610
01:37:55,640 --> 01:37:58,440
situation that nobody, nobody 
who's not been in it could 

1611
01:37:58,440 --> 01:38:01,080
understand how blessed you are 
when you actually know you 

1612
01:38:01,080 --> 01:38:03,320
should be dead and your family 
should be dead. 

1613
01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:06,360
So you have this. 
So gratefulness comes easy. 

1614
01:38:07,480 --> 01:38:10,720
Sorry. 
Yeah, gratefulness comes easy. 

1615
01:38:13,360 --> 01:38:15,120
Sorry, I didn't catch what you 
were saying. 

1616
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:17,280
Oh, I, I said. 
I said so, so, so. 

1617
01:38:17,280 --> 01:38:19,680
You're in a place where 
gratefulness many times can come

1618
01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:21,200
easy. 
Oh, yes. 

1619
01:38:21,200 --> 01:38:24,240
Oh, I think we, we, we are aware
of that every day. 

1620
01:38:25,240 --> 01:38:26,880
We've been so blessed. 
Yeah. 

1621
01:38:27,960 --> 01:38:31,840
I mean, I mean, extraordinary 
things have happened to us since

1622
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:36,800
then. 
And so one of the things you 

1623
01:38:36,800 --> 01:38:40,840
want is you want to give back. 
And so one of the ways that I 

1624
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:44,320
wanted to give back was I felt 
this need to get back to 

1625
01:38:44,320 --> 01:38:46,880
Mozambique. 
So Sandy Sandy's handled the 

1626
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:50,440
whole thing by by simply 
pretending it didn't happen. 

1627
01:38:50,440 --> 01:38:54,320
So once we got back, she just 
just came down and she won't 

1628
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:57,160
talk about it at all. 
I'm more than happy to talk 

1629
01:38:57,160 --> 01:38:58,920
about it. 
And, you know, bugger the 

1630
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:02,720
consequences of of me bursting 
into tears in front of hundreds 

1631
01:39:02,720 --> 01:39:05,040
of people or whatever. 
So we've. 

1632
01:39:05,320 --> 01:39:07,240
Has she read the book? 
No. 

1633
01:39:07,480 --> 01:39:09,640
Has she read the book? 
She hasn't read the book. 

1634
01:39:09,720 --> 01:39:12,120
This is fascinating to me. 
OK, Yeah. 

1635
01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:13,800
Never, never read the book. 
Yeah. 

1636
01:39:13,800 --> 01:39:16,920
So the, I mean, we can talk the 
things we can talk about there 

1637
01:39:16,920 --> 01:39:22,360
as well. 
Sorry. 

1638
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:24,720
Yeah, sorry. 
I can't. 

1639
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:27,920
You know, there's so much one 
could say about that particular 

1640
01:39:27,920 --> 01:39:31,760
subject anyway. 
So one of the things is I felt I

1641
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:33,200
needed to get back to 
Mozambique. 

1642
01:39:33,200 --> 01:39:35,400
So we, we were very, we were 
very strong Christians. 

1643
01:39:35,400 --> 01:39:38,280
So the whole impact of our 
Christian faith during this is 

1644
01:39:38,280 --> 01:39:42,000
also now a fascinating subject. 
You know, how that that's, that 

1645
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:46,120
in many ways didn't make it 
easier that we, because you're 

1646
01:39:46,120 --> 01:39:48,360
saying to yourself, God, why did
this happen? 

1647
01:39:48,360 --> 01:39:51,120
You know, if you're loving God, 
why are these terrible things 

1648
01:39:51,120 --> 01:39:52,600
happen? 
And that, that's a whole 

1649
01:39:52,600 --> 01:39:56,520
different subject. 
But one. 

1650
01:39:56,520 --> 01:40:00,520
One Sunday a guy pictures up at 
our church organizing a missions

1651
01:40:00,520 --> 01:40:05,200
trip to Mozambique to check out 
how the Protestant church has 

1652
01:40:05,200 --> 01:40:08,160
done doing there. 
And I just think I've got to go 

1653
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:10,920
on this thing. 
So I sign up for it. 

1654
01:40:10,920 --> 01:40:14,440
I managed to convince 6 other 
people and the church leadership

1655
01:40:14,440 --> 01:40:18,760
to loan us the church minibus. 
Which is, which is a miracle, I 

1656
01:40:18,760 --> 01:40:23,720
can tell you, you know, church 
politics and, and, and off we 

1657
01:40:23,720 --> 01:40:25,120
go. 
I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a 

1658
01:40:25,120 --> 01:40:28,640
three day drive to get there. 
So we don't actually even know 

1659
01:40:28,640 --> 01:40:32,400
what we're going into now. 
Only the leader of that group. 

1660
01:40:32,400 --> 01:40:34,000
I wasn't the leader of that 
first group. 

1661
01:40:35,120 --> 01:40:38,560
The, he was the only person who 
knew my background story and 

1662
01:40:38,560 --> 01:40:42,240
involvement with Mozambique. 
So we, we stopped over in 

1663
01:40:42,240 --> 01:40:46,960
Swaziland and then, then, then 
there's a short hop to the 

1664
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:50,200
border to Mozambique. 
And I was feeling like I was so 

1665
01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:52,040
happy and I was, I really 
looking forward. 

1666
01:40:52,160 --> 01:40:57,080
I had no idea where we were 
going because that that hadn't 

1667
01:40:57,080 --> 01:40:59,480
been revealed at all. 
We were just, we, there was a 

1668
01:40:59,480 --> 01:41:02,600
like big group of about 50 
people that we were part of. 

1669
01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:06,400
And at that time Mozambique was 
still quite dangerous to visit. 

1670
01:41:06,400 --> 01:41:08,480
There was still banditry and 
stuff happening. 

1671
01:41:10,120 --> 01:41:13,200
So we crossover the border, we 
go through the customs and, and,

1672
01:41:13,440 --> 01:41:17,080
and get into Mozambique and you 
just instantly know you're in a 

1673
01:41:17,080 --> 01:41:19,720
different country. 
And we've gone probably 500 

1674
01:41:19,720 --> 01:41:24,560
meters and bang, this happened. 
Just this, I just collapsed 

1675
01:41:24,560 --> 01:41:27,440
completely onto the floor of the
minibus, you know, and I 

1676
01:41:27,440 --> 01:41:29,960
couldn't talk. 
I was in tears. 

1677
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:34,480
It was, it was such a weird 
experience again, you know, that

1678
01:41:34,480 --> 01:41:37,440
it just absolutely came flooding
back like you couldn't believe. 

1679
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:42,400
So that was the first time it 
happened, the 2nd and that whole

1680
01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:44,080
trip. 
Oh, perhaps let me just finish 

1681
01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:46,040
that whole trip. 
So believe it or not, we ended 

1682
01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:50,600
up, we, we get up to a place 
near, near Mamba, near Mashishi.

1683
01:41:50,600 --> 01:41:52,360
And now I'm getting quite 
nervous because this is very 

1684
01:41:52,360 --> 01:41:53,960
close to where we were held 
captive. 

1685
01:41:55,800 --> 01:41:59,000
And, and the, the, the, the 
organizers there in Mozambique, 

1686
01:41:59,000 --> 01:42:02,200
they say, OK, Sterling Baptist 
Church, which is the church I 

1687
01:42:02,200 --> 01:42:04,280
was part of. 
You're going to go with Thomas. 

1688
01:42:04,280 --> 01:42:06,760
He'll take it to where you're 
going to be ministering and and 

1689
01:42:06,760 --> 01:42:09,600
working. 
I say to Thomas, you know, where

1690
01:42:09,600 --> 01:42:10,720
are we going? 
And he said, if we go into a 

1691
01:42:10,720 --> 01:42:14,120
place called Augustina Nettu, 
that's a funny name. 

1692
01:42:14,520 --> 01:42:17,320
He says, yeah, it was the MN 
Bond headquarters for Frelimo. 

1693
01:42:17,800 --> 01:42:22,680
So the I've got to be careful 
now because I could actually 

1694
01:42:22,680 --> 01:42:25,320
burst into tears at this point. 
I mean, Can you believe it? 

1695
01:42:25,320 --> 01:42:28,320
Nobody knew my story. 
Nobody knew my story. 

1696
01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:31,520
That was absolute chance, if you
want to put it that way. 

1697
01:42:31,920 --> 01:42:34,760
So we end up ministering at this
place that used to be the 

1698
01:42:34,760 --> 01:42:37,760
military headquarters, almost 
certainly from where those are 

1699
01:42:37,760 --> 01:42:41,320
texts that had been launched 
because this was closer than 

1700
01:42:41,320 --> 01:42:45,160
than than villain Kulis the, 
the, the, the mains of 

1701
01:42:45,160 --> 01:42:49,280
headquarters. 
And you know, that was the big 

1702
01:42:49,280 --> 01:42:52,760
healing experience. 
I want to stop you right there 

1703
01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:54,960
for a second here and maybe we 
can take you away from the 

1704
01:42:54,960 --> 01:42:58,040
emotion and the bursting into 
tears by observing something, 

1705
01:42:58,560 --> 01:43:01,560
something that I've always been 
convinced in my life and I've 

1706
01:43:01,560 --> 01:43:06,760
not gone through anything even 
remotely close to what you're 

1707
01:43:06,760 --> 01:43:08,520
taught what, what you have gone 
through here. 

1708
01:43:08,520 --> 01:43:12,760
OK, But there's one thing that I
have always understood, even 

1709
01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:16,200
going through my version of 
hardships, my, my definition of 

1710
01:43:16,200 --> 01:43:18,760
hardships. 
And, and, and it's just to me, 

1711
01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:22,120
I've always said this, there are
no coincidences. 

1712
01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:27,800
And, and, and to me, like 
looking at that alone, there's 

1713
01:43:27,800 --> 01:43:30,760
no way whether or not it made 
you emotional at that time, it 

1714
01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:32,800
made you however it was, it made
you feel. 

1715
01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:37,080
I can imagine that there's 
nothing about this existence in 

1716
01:43:37,080 --> 01:43:41,040
your life, be it your faith, be 
it all the things that you must 

1717
01:43:41,040 --> 01:43:42,840
feel that way. 
There are no coincidences 

1718
01:43:42,840 --> 01:43:46,320
because I, I, I, you can't write
this. 

1719
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:49,120
You cannot, you get, you get the
best scriptwriter in the world. 

1720
01:43:49,240 --> 01:43:51,360
I mean, you wrote it 
autobiographically because it 

1721
01:43:51,360 --> 01:43:54,160
happened, but you can't write 
this stuff, man. 

1722
01:43:54,160 --> 01:43:56,440
Like like this is. 
This is astounding. 

1723
01:43:58,720 --> 01:44:02,400
Yeah, you know, I mean, I, I 
when I tell the story, people 

1724
01:44:02,400 --> 01:44:06,120
react like you reacting now. 
And, and and that's and, and the

1725
01:44:06,120 --> 01:44:08,800
people who read the book all say
lovely things about it. 

1726
01:44:09,480 --> 01:44:14,440
It what, what to me is a start 
is, is I think, I think I, I, 

1727
01:44:14,720 --> 01:44:20,920
I've only do, I suffer from 
PTSD, but I suffer from PTWD, 

1728
01:44:21,200 --> 01:44:23,080
post traumatic writer's 
disorder. 

1729
01:44:23,160 --> 01:44:29,440
I think if you, if you want to 
really, if you really want to go

1730
01:44:29,440 --> 01:44:31,800
through an ordeal, write a book 
and try and get it published. 

1731
01:44:33,360 --> 01:44:34,720
That, that, that's a hilarious 
thing. 

1732
01:44:36,160 --> 01:44:37,960
I have my wife and I published a
book. 

1733
01:44:37,960 --> 01:44:40,640
We we did well done and and I 
know what you're talking about. 

1734
01:44:40,640 --> 01:44:42,160
I know exactly. 
What you're talking about? 

1735
01:44:42,160 --> 01:44:42,680
Yep. 
Yep. 

1736
01:44:42,920 --> 01:44:44,280
Yeah. 
Anyway, yeah. 

1737
01:44:44,280 --> 01:44:47,560
So that that was an amazing 
healing process of being there. 

1738
01:44:47,560 --> 01:44:49,480
I mean. 
And then to the, to my 

1739
01:44:49,480 --> 01:44:52,600
amazement, the people there had 
put the wall completely behind 

1740
01:44:52,600 --> 01:44:54,440
them. 
I was the one sitting with the 

1741
01:44:54,440 --> 01:44:59,440
problem, you know, So it was A 
and, and, and, and maybe a, a 

1742
01:44:59,440 --> 01:45:03,800
little story. 
That's, that's, that's I kind 

1743
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:08,160
of, I, I, I start the book and 
end the book with a similar 

1744
01:45:08,160 --> 01:45:09,960
story. 
But clearly it really did 

1745
01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:12,800
happen. 
So, and it was, it was lovely to

1746
01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:14,560
be there amongst those people. 
They were so happy. 

1747
01:45:14,560 --> 01:45:15,960
And it was such a beautiful 
environment. 

1748
01:45:16,040 --> 01:45:18,560
It was just like, exactly like 
where we were held captive. 

1749
01:45:18,600 --> 01:45:23,080
All those memories came back. 
But yeah, I, I, I was often in 

1750
01:45:23,080 --> 01:45:29,600
tears during that visit. 
And on the last evening I just 

1751
01:45:29,600 --> 01:45:33,440
felt I wanted to be alone. 
So I went walking off, left 

1752
01:45:33,440 --> 01:45:37,240
everybody and I went walking off
amongst the mainly palm trees. 

1753
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:40,360
And it was beautiful. 
It was like like a warm evening 

1754
01:45:40,360 --> 01:45:43,480
and the the smoke was sort of 
lying horizontally in wisp 

1755
01:45:43,480 --> 01:45:46,760
between the trees and this 
lovely smell of, of roasting 

1756
01:45:47,240 --> 01:45:53,320
coconut and and, and the ladies 
are chomping, chomping money 

1757
01:45:53,320 --> 01:45:57,440
York and the food and stuff. 
And a whole bunch of kids come 

1758
01:45:57,440 --> 01:46:00,920
along and they start walking 
with me now because you see, we 

1759
01:46:00,920 --> 01:46:02,760
were like entertainment while we
were there. 

1760
01:46:03,000 --> 01:46:06,240
So this suddenly, this group of 
about 10 kids are now following 

1761
01:46:06,240 --> 01:46:15,280
me as I'm walking along and, 
and, and suddenly this thought 

1762
01:46:15,280 --> 01:46:22,200
comes to me of the whole story 
started, as I mentioned with, 

1763
01:46:22,760 --> 01:46:28,480
with that man telling the story 
when I was a little boy. 

1764
01:46:28,480 --> 01:46:31,960
And one of the things he taught 
us to do was to tie a bowline 

1765
01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:36,840
knot. 
And, and that, that's, that's 

1766
01:46:36,840 --> 01:46:39,480
the most critical yacht to know 
how to tie on a, on a yacht. 

1767
01:46:41,560 --> 01:46:46,000
And he said, you know, why is, 
why is this not important? 

1768
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:47,720
Why, why can't you just tie any 
old knot? 

1769
01:46:47,720 --> 01:46:49,720
What's, what's special about a 
bow line knot? 

1770
01:46:50,600 --> 01:46:53,800
And, and what is special about 
it is that no matter how tight 

1771
01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:55,600
it's been bound, you can always 
undo it. 

1772
01:46:55,600 --> 01:46:57,560
There's always a way of making 
it loose. 

1773
01:46:58,120 --> 01:47:00,360
So you can always undo a bow 
line knot. 

1774
01:47:01,200 --> 01:47:03,040
And this sort of image suddenly 
came to me. 

1775
01:47:03,880 --> 01:47:06,320
I've got to be careful not to 
get too emotional about this 

1776
01:47:06,320 --> 01:47:08,360
because it was a very touching 
moment. 

1777
01:47:09,880 --> 01:47:14,680
So the only thing I had, I 
thought, well, I'll show these 

1778
01:47:14,680 --> 01:47:18,840
kids how to tie a bow line like 
a nice sort of literally tying a

1779
01:47:18,840 --> 01:47:22,320
knot at the end of it all, 
because this is what I've got to

1780
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:24,760
do. 
I've got to, I've got to untie 

1781
01:47:24,760 --> 01:47:26,160
these things that are binding 
me. 

1782
01:47:26,920 --> 01:47:28,960
And the only thing I had was I 
had my glasses. 

1783
01:47:29,320 --> 01:47:31,760
It's got sunglasses around my 
neck on a, on a cord. 

1784
01:47:32,120 --> 01:47:33,960
And I sat down and showed them 
out of time. 

1785
01:47:33,960 --> 01:47:36,000
They all, they were, they were 
running, they were flying. 

1786
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:37,960
They, they, they were singing 
this beautiful song. 

1787
01:47:38,120 --> 01:47:40,840
That's how they would mount up 
on eagle's wings and, and run 

1788
01:47:40,840 --> 01:47:43,440
and never get weary, which is 
from the book of Isaiah, a very 

1789
01:47:43,440 --> 01:47:45,960
beautiful song, a very happy 
song. 

1790
01:47:45,960 --> 01:47:49,240
So there was like fluttering 
around me and I, I squatted down

1791
01:47:49,240 --> 01:47:52,480
and I started to tie this knot 
and they all clustered around me

1792
01:47:52,680 --> 01:47:58,680
as children do. 
And that was that. 

1793
01:47:58,800 --> 01:48:02,160
That was an amazing experience. 
I think that must have been 

1794
01:48:02,160 --> 01:48:07,840
really puzzled by my tears 
because I just wept and wept and

1795
01:48:07,840 --> 01:48:14,680
wept because you know that that 
really was like for me literally

1796
01:48:14,920 --> 01:48:17,200
undoing all this thing that was 
binding me. 

1797
01:48:18,240 --> 01:48:20,920
You know that that you, if 
you're going to tie yourself to 

1798
01:48:20,920 --> 01:48:25,400
things in life, do it in a way 
where you can always, but you 

1799
01:48:25,400 --> 01:48:26,400
never know what's going to 
happen. 

1800
01:48:26,600 --> 01:48:28,120
Do you know a way where you can 
undo it? 

1801
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:30,160
You don't have to Cut the Rope 
and destroy the rope. 

1802
01:48:30,560 --> 01:48:34,120
So it was it was just a nice 
analogy for me to use. 

1803
01:48:35,040 --> 01:48:38,720
Anyway, the second time this 
happened that I can remember was

1804
01:48:41,840 --> 01:48:44,480
I while when I was on those 
trips, we always had doctors 

1805
01:48:44,480 --> 01:48:46,000
with us. 
And I always thought you had 

1806
01:48:46,000 --> 01:48:47,880
these lucky doctors. 
I'm I'm an architect. 

1807
01:48:48,160 --> 01:48:51,120
Who the hell needs an architect?
I mean, they're building using 

1808
01:48:51,160 --> 01:48:53,600
farmies. 
Actually. 

1809
01:48:53,600 --> 01:48:55,520
I'm actually useless in this 
environment. 

1810
01:48:56,800 --> 01:48:58,440
So nobody ever needs an 
architect. 

1811
01:48:59,440 --> 01:49:02,440
So I was feeling a little bit 
sort of lonely in, in terms of 

1812
01:49:02,440 --> 01:49:09,400
this envious of doctors. 
But about when it was in 2013, 

1813
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:14,480
another guy pictures up at our 
church and he's, he's a member 

1814
01:49:14,480 --> 01:49:17,040
of a of a mission organization 
called Engineering Missions 

1815
01:49:17,040 --> 01:49:20,960
International. 
And what they do is they, they, 

1816
01:49:21,160 --> 01:49:25,280
they assemble groups of 
volunteer professionals to go 

1817
01:49:25,280 --> 01:49:31,040
and, and design projects that 
Christian groups are wanting to 

1818
01:49:31,040 --> 01:49:34,040
build. 
And, and usually the Christian 

1819
01:49:34,040 --> 01:49:37,040
groups have no idea of the 
complexity of building, you 

1820
01:49:37,040 --> 01:49:40,680
know, the the TV program's made 
about all the, all the pitfalls.

1821
01:49:40,680 --> 01:49:41,760
Yeah. 
They don't know what they're. 

1822
01:49:41,760 --> 01:49:44,360
Getting in, they haven't got the
money to employ people, they 

1823
01:49:44,360 --> 01:49:45,680
just don't have the skills at 
all. 

1824
01:49:46,400 --> 01:49:55,720
So I I signed up for a trip to 
Burundi and yeah, so I've done 3

1825
01:49:55,720 --> 01:49:58,360
trips with them and they've all 
been amazing experiences as 

1826
01:49:58,360 --> 01:50:00,480
well. 
That first one was to Burundi 

1827
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:10,920
and it was to help rebuild a, a,
a hospital in near the, it was a

1828
01:50:11,560 --> 01:50:15,720
Kabui hospital near Gatiga in 
Burundi, Burundi. 

1829
01:50:15,720 --> 01:50:19,560
Burundi was, everybody knows 
about the Rwandan genocide, but 

1830
01:50:19,600 --> 01:50:22,440
at exactly the same time the 
genocide was occurring in 

1831
01:50:22,440 --> 01:50:25,120
Burundi as well. 
And so this hospital was in 

1832
01:50:25,120 --> 01:50:27,360
absolute ruins and the people 
had murdered each other. 

1833
01:50:27,360 --> 01:50:29,880
So they'd, they'd suffered 
through that whole genocide 

1834
01:50:29,880 --> 01:50:32,840
thing as well. 
And, and these people had this 

1835
01:50:32,840 --> 01:50:38,800
mission of recreating this 
hospital and it just so happened

1836
01:50:38,800 --> 01:50:45,960
that so we ran aground on the 
28th of April and on the 28th 

1837
01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:47,280
away. 
We've been there about 3 or 4 

1838
01:50:47,480 --> 01:50:49,840
three days. 
I think the the leader of the 

1839
01:50:49,840 --> 01:50:52,360
group, you always got somebody 
in the group. 

1840
01:50:52,520 --> 01:50:54,680
So these are people from all 
around the world who've now come

1841
01:50:54,680 --> 01:51:03,200
together to tell their story. 
And, and, and on the of all 

1842
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:08,240
nights, that night he chooses me
the anniversary of, of, of 

1843
01:51:08,320 --> 01:51:11,360
everything that had happened and
literally to the hour when the 

1844
01:51:11,360 --> 01:51:15,440
old couple were murdered. 
And I start telling the story 

1845
01:51:15,440 --> 01:51:16,960
and I'm feeling very happy about
it. 

1846
01:51:16,960 --> 01:51:19,920
And bang again, the same thing 
happened. 

1847
01:51:20,440 --> 01:51:24,480
And, and that's the story I 
actually start the book with 

1848
01:51:24,680 --> 01:51:29,480
because a few days later, you 
know, of course, they were very 

1849
01:51:29,480 --> 01:51:31,520
disturbed. 
I thought I was having a heart 

1850
01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:34,280
attack or some of these poor 
people were traumatized by my 

1851
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:38,440
behaviour. 
So one of them said, you know, 

1852
01:51:38,440 --> 01:51:40,960
when I get back to South Africa,
I need to see a psychologist. 

1853
01:51:42,040 --> 01:51:46,480
And, and he, he probably was 
probably, probably right. 

1854
01:51:46,760 --> 01:51:49,320
But that's when I decided now I 
really needed to write the book.

1855
01:51:49,960 --> 01:51:52,760
And so when I got back, I 
started to write the book. 

1856
01:51:53,240 --> 01:51:59,680
And that was a Tigger for that. 
Yeah, Mike, we could carry on. 

1857
01:51:59,680 --> 01:52:04,920
You know, and, and, and, and I, 
and I, and I want to, I, I want 

1858
01:52:04,920 --> 01:52:07,960
to, I want to, I want to do a 
Part 2 to this. 

1859
01:52:08,400 --> 01:52:16,920
I, I, I, I, I'm so captivated by
you, by your insights, by the 

1860
01:52:18,080 --> 01:52:23,840
melodic, poetic way that you're 
able to articulate this story. 

1861
01:52:23,840 --> 01:52:26,680
It's, it's, it's astounding. 
I also want to make a joke. 

1862
01:52:26,680 --> 01:52:28,720
No, that's not a joke. 
It's, you know, they had the 

1863
01:52:28,720 --> 01:52:29,960
doctors and they had the 
architect. 

1864
01:52:29,960 --> 01:52:32,520
Well, they also had, you know, a
mallecologist. 

1865
01:52:32,520 --> 01:52:33,960
So they got that in their corner
too. 

1866
01:52:33,960 --> 01:52:38,760
That's always a good thing. 
But, but, but really, I, I go 

1867
01:52:38,760 --> 01:52:40,720
back and, and we're going to 
finish it here. 

1868
01:52:40,840 --> 01:52:42,080
We're going to finish it on this
one. 

1869
01:52:42,080 --> 01:52:43,840
And we're going to call this 
Part 1 and we're going to figure

1870
01:52:43,840 --> 01:52:46,280
out a way to get you back on 
here, Dave, because I, I, 

1871
01:52:46,280 --> 01:52:48,920
there's so much more that I want
to get into. 

1872
01:52:49,840 --> 01:52:53,560
But for the guys who are 
listening to this that are not 

1873
01:52:53,560 --> 01:52:57,080
just captivated by your story, 
but also, I know for me 

1874
01:52:57,080 --> 01:53:01,760
personally, the perspective of 
the big problems that I have. 

1875
01:53:01,760 --> 01:53:04,240
And I've got some big, I got 
some things that I would say 

1876
01:53:04,720 --> 01:53:07,520
that are, are, are, are big, are
big things. 

1877
01:53:07,520 --> 01:53:09,920
I got shoulders that I'm that 
I'm that I'm being heavy on 

1878
01:53:10,040 --> 01:53:12,320
that, that are heavy on for my 
family and stuff right now. 

1879
01:53:13,000 --> 01:53:15,760
But every man does and and and 
and and and everyone who's 

1880
01:53:15,760 --> 01:53:17,480
listening to this is in that 
regard. 

1881
01:53:17,680 --> 01:53:20,680
But the perspective is amazing 
and I appreciate you for that. 

1882
01:53:21,040 --> 01:53:23,600
I appreciate you being able to 
give every single guy who's 

1883
01:53:23,600 --> 01:53:25,960
listening to this and the women 
who listen to this, who have a 

1884
01:53:25,960 --> 01:53:27,880
guy that they love that listen 
to this. 

1885
01:53:29,000 --> 01:53:30,720
And you're, you're giving 
perspective. 

1886
01:53:31,480 --> 01:53:33,760
You know, the big, the big 
things, the gratefulness stuff, 

1887
01:53:33,760 --> 01:53:37,320
the blessed stuff, the, the, 
the, my goodness, we're going 

1888
01:53:37,320 --> 01:53:40,120
through this. 
But boy, other people have gone 

1889
01:53:40,120 --> 01:53:42,120
through things and that 
perspective is beautiful. 

1890
01:53:42,120 --> 01:53:47,920
But I want to go back and I want
to finish this because the bow 

1891
01:53:47,920 --> 01:53:50,760
knot has really, really 
captivated me. 

1892
01:53:51,680 --> 01:53:56,080
And, and, and, and the idea that
there are people listening to 

1893
01:53:56,080 --> 01:53:58,880
this right now, that they think 
that they're not as so tight 

1894
01:54:00,120 --> 01:54:05,440
that it could never be loosened.
And, and, and you have a 

1895
01:54:05,440 --> 01:54:08,800
perspective on that both a 
literal 1 and a figurative 1. 

1896
01:54:09,440 --> 01:54:12,160
And so before we, before we go 
on, I want you to, that's what I

1897
01:54:12,160 --> 01:54:13,520
want you to talk about. 
So you got a second to think 

1898
01:54:13,520 --> 01:54:15,920
about it. 
The book is not child's play, 

1899
01:54:16,440 --> 01:54:21,160
not child's play. 
And, and, and, and find it, grab

1900
01:54:21,160 --> 01:54:23,720
it if you like this story. 
And by the way, if anybody in 

1901
01:54:23,720 --> 01:54:28,520
our in our circle is a has has 
connections to anybody in the 

1902
01:54:28,520 --> 01:54:32,240
entertainment business, you 
know, we've got the outline for 

1903
01:54:32,240 --> 01:54:35,000
a heck of a movie in this 
conversation that we have here. 

1904
01:54:35,000 --> 01:54:39,360
And and I mean, to me, you know,
again, the confluence of events,

1905
01:54:39,360 --> 01:54:41,880
my word. 
So not child's play. 

1906
01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:44,760
Dave Mueller is around. 
You can find him. 

1907
01:54:44,760 --> 01:54:48,160
You can, you can, you can you 
can, you know, search if you 

1908
01:54:48,160 --> 01:54:50,880
have social media, I'd like you 
to talk about that right now. 

1909
01:54:51,320 --> 01:54:55,320
But then I just want to finish 
off by talking about the idea of

1910
01:54:55,320 --> 01:54:59,240
how many people think that their
knots are so tight, but they 

1911
01:54:59,240 --> 01:55:02,400
don't even realize that they 
have a bow knot and that that 

1912
01:55:02,400 --> 01:55:05,840
knot can be loosened and, and, 
and you certainly are proof 

1913
01:55:05,840 --> 01:55:08,360
positive of that. 
So how do people find you other 

1914
01:55:08,360 --> 01:55:10,440
than researching the book Not 
Child's Play? 

1915
01:55:10,440 --> 01:55:14,600
How do people find you, Dave? 
Well, I think probably if they 

1916
01:55:14,600 --> 01:55:20,800
want to hear more, I've got a 
web page which is not child, not

1917
01:55:20,800 --> 01:55:28,040
child's play.co.uk that'll give 
you a link and you can contact 

1918
01:55:28,040 --> 01:55:37,000
me directly at I think it's 
david.muller@notcharlesplay.co 

1919
01:55:37,040 --> 01:55:39,200
dot ZA. 
That's a South Africa one, but 

1920
01:55:39,200 --> 01:55:42,480
that's in that's in the same 
web, that's in that same website

1921
01:55:43,360 --> 01:55:44,880
and we'll. 
Put that in the description 

1922
01:55:44,880 --> 01:55:46,880
here, too. 
We're going to put that in our 

1923
01:55:46,880 --> 01:55:48,280
channels too as we release the 
episode. 

1924
01:55:48,280 --> 01:55:50,200
But but good. 
I'm glad you talked about it. 

1925
01:55:50,200 --> 01:55:56,400
Yeah, and then the bone knot. 
The bone knot man like like like

1926
01:55:56,400 --> 01:56:00,680
let's bring us home because I. 
I you have a perspective. 

1927
01:56:03,080 --> 01:56:06,440
But, but, but how many of us, 
how many of us men are in a you 

1928
01:56:06,440 --> 01:56:10,640
know, we think that the knot is 
not able to be loosened when in 

1929
01:56:10,640 --> 01:56:16,520
fact it can. 
Yes, well, it depends what knot 

1930
01:56:16,520 --> 01:56:19,800
you use you see in in your life.
So, you know, and if you, if 

1931
01:56:19,800 --> 01:56:22,760
you, you don't, you don't want 
to end up cutting all the ropes 

1932
01:56:22,760 --> 01:56:26,800
in your life. 
Yeah, the, the way to expect, 

1933
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:30,160
you know, analogies are, are 
there's a limit to how far you 

1934
01:56:30,160 --> 01:56:33,800
can push an analogy. 
But but this is how I see it in 

1935
01:56:33,800 --> 01:56:38,280
my life because I've I've often 
thought about this whole bowline

1936
01:56:38,280 --> 01:56:44,000
thing and it, it's it, it is 
quite weird how nicely it 

1937
01:56:44,000 --> 01:56:48,160
bracketed the book in in the 
end, it almost felt like 

1938
01:56:48,160 --> 01:56:49,560
somebody else was writing the 
book. 

1939
01:56:50,200 --> 01:56:52,920
Literally, literally the 
storyline, the arc of the 

1940
01:56:52,920 --> 01:56:56,320
storyline was just so amazing. 
And we haven't even touched what

1941
01:56:56,320 --> 01:56:58,200
happened afterwards in the 
years. 

1942
01:56:58,200 --> 01:57:00,960
The amazing things that my 
family have experienced and 

1943
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:03,000
where they are now, this is 
going. 

1944
01:57:03,120 --> 01:57:04,840
To be Part 2. 
But anyway, keep going. 

1945
01:57:04,920 --> 01:57:06,720
Yeah, but the. 
The bowline. 

1946
01:57:06,720 --> 01:57:08,560
Yeah. 
I think you know you as you go 

1947
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:10,080
through life. 
So we imagine that you've got 

1948
01:57:10,080 --> 01:57:12,360
this rope, You know, I wish I 
had a rope in front of me. 

1949
01:57:12,360 --> 01:57:17,360
Now with two NS, you're holding 
with two NS and you, you, you as

1950
01:57:17,360 --> 01:57:19,680
a young person, you're going 
through life and you're going to

1951
01:57:19,840 --> 01:57:22,120
tie this around something. 
Now, you know, unless you're 

1952
01:57:22,120 --> 01:57:23,920
going to go up to a tree or 
whatever and you're going to 

1953
01:57:23,920 --> 01:57:26,840
tie, tie something around, this 
is going to be one of your 

1954
01:57:26,880 --> 01:57:30,040
anchors in life. 
So those those things are all 

1955
01:57:30,040 --> 01:57:32,240
sorts of things. 
They could, they're massively 

1956
01:57:32,240 --> 01:57:36,280
your friends when you're young, 
massively your friends and, and,

1957
01:57:36,320 --> 01:57:41,080
and for goodness sake, tie bow 
lines around and lesser good 

1958
01:57:41,080 --> 01:57:45,080
friends don't grab bad friends. 
People are going to have 

1959
01:57:45,080 --> 01:57:48,400
terrible influence upon you, you
know, and if you do undo the 

1960
01:57:48,400 --> 01:57:53,400
bloody not and go find somebody 
else, you know, and then, and 

1961
01:57:53,400 --> 01:57:55,200
then also you can take it 
further. 

1962
01:57:55,200 --> 01:58:01,360
So if I look at my life, I, I, I
was, I certainly wasn't a 

1963
01:58:01,360 --> 01:58:04,480
Christian in my younger days. 
I, I became a Christian. 

1964
01:58:04,480 --> 01:58:06,600
So when, when this was happened,
I was a Christian. 

1965
01:58:06,880 --> 01:58:09,480
We haven't spoken about that 
whole side of things, which is a

1966
01:58:10,040 --> 01:58:12,280
quite a complicated story, but 
yeah. 

1967
01:58:12,280 --> 01:58:17,240
So I, I tie my, my bowline is 
tied around the biblical God. 

1968
01:58:17,240 --> 01:58:21,360
That's, that's and, and I, I 
understand other people who've 

1969
01:58:21,360 --> 01:58:24,280
got religions that they do the 
same sort of thing. 

1970
01:58:24,600 --> 01:58:27,520
So that that becomes sort of 
like my, my foundation. 

1971
01:58:28,160 --> 01:58:32,160
And then around that rope, I 
then tie other ropes that are 

1972
01:58:32,160 --> 01:58:37,760
my, with bowlines that are my 
family, my work, my recreation, 

1973
01:58:38,040 --> 01:58:39,720
you know, all all these sorts of
things. 

1974
01:58:40,200 --> 01:58:43,200
And, and they then have other 
little knots loops tied. 

1975
01:58:43,200 --> 01:58:45,960
So you create this whole matrix 
of, of knots. 

1976
01:58:45,960 --> 01:58:50,320
See if I can put it like this 
of, of, but everything is goes 

1977
01:58:50,320 --> 01:58:53,600
central to this one middle 
thing, which in my case happens 

1978
01:58:53,600 --> 01:58:57,080
to be God. 
And, and then certainly a 

1979
01:58:57,080 --> 01:59:01,160
massive 1 would be family. 
Massive 1 was my work, my 

1980
01:59:01,160 --> 01:59:06,760
profession and, and so on. 
So, and, and if you find as 

1981
01:59:06,760 --> 01:59:09,560
you're going through life and, 
and you will, because we, we, we

1982
01:59:09,600 --> 01:59:11,760
don't have foresight, you know, 
yet. 

1983
01:59:11,760 --> 01:59:14,160
And often when you're young, you
do stupid things. 

1984
01:59:14,960 --> 01:59:16,440
I mean, I'm, I'm talking to you 
now. 

1985
01:59:17,800 --> 01:59:20,280
I, I would hate to give the 
impression that I'm some kind of

1986
01:59:20,280 --> 01:59:23,760
hero. 
I'm, I'm a very weak, scared, 

1987
01:59:24,160 --> 01:59:29,120
scary kind of guy, you know, I 
mean, I watch guys playing rugby

1988
01:59:29,120 --> 01:59:31,880
here in South Africa or American
football, right? 

1989
01:59:32,200 --> 01:59:38,080
I see bloody crazy, you know, do
that. 

1990
01:59:38,320 --> 01:59:40,240
I'm way too scared to do that 
sort of thing. 

1991
01:59:40,680 --> 01:59:44,920
So, you know, so, so, so you see
heroes in all sorts of different

1992
01:59:44,920 --> 01:59:47,920
situations. 
Men, men come in all with shapes

1993
01:59:47,920 --> 01:59:51,040
and sizes and manifestations. 
We've all got skills. 

1994
01:59:51,040 --> 01:59:54,960
We all make up a community. 
But yeah, if you find that 

1995
01:59:54,960 --> 01:59:57,880
you've tired, you're not around 
something that's bad, like an 

1996
01:59:57,880 --> 02:00:01,600
addiction, you know, find 
somebody who'll help you 

1997
02:00:01,600 --> 02:00:03,760
untired. 
They they, I think, I think in 

1998
02:00:03,760 --> 02:00:07,720
your notes you've got lots of 
aids, references to AIDS. 

1999
02:00:09,320 --> 02:00:15,560
So, you know, and maybe if I 
could just get in one lost final

2000
02:00:15,560 --> 02:00:19,840
plug because I I would love to 
come back and talk, but just one

2001
02:00:19,840 --> 02:00:21,440
final plug. 
So yeah, I think. 

2002
02:00:22,480 --> 02:00:27,560
I think in terms of giving back,
that that is one of the most 

2003
02:00:27,560 --> 02:00:29,480
important things that you can 
do. 

2004
02:00:29,480 --> 02:00:35,160
So my family have realized that 
we don't really own the story. 

2005
02:00:35,240 --> 02:00:38,280
We can't take down the story. 
We should be dead. 

2006
02:00:38,280 --> 02:00:42,240
It's as simple as that. 
The story belongs to even to 

2007
02:00:42,240 --> 02:00:45,600
those who are normal people, 
even to President Josana, even 

2008
02:00:45,600 --> 02:00:48,200
to the politicians in South 
Africa, certainly to the men 

2009
02:00:48,200 --> 02:00:52,000
who, who, who came and rescued 
us and those extraordinary guys 

2010
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:54,320
who came ashore, the Gavins of 
the world. 

2011
02:00:54,840 --> 02:00:58,760
We owe an immense debt to them. 
So how do you repay them? 

2012
02:00:59,960 --> 02:01:03,080
And so there are many things 
that you can do in terms of 

2013
02:01:03,080 --> 02:01:05,520
social work and and helping in 
the community. 

2014
02:01:05,520 --> 02:01:09,920
But one of them is that we've 
taken a decision to donate all 

2015
02:01:09,920 --> 02:01:13,960
the proceeds from the, the sale 
of Not Child's Play to a charity

2016
02:01:13,960 --> 02:01:18,040
called Hostage International. 
They, they UK based is an 

2017
02:01:18,040 --> 02:01:20,320
American derivative of it as 
well. 

2018
02:01:21,160 --> 02:01:23,680
And they don't get involved in 
hostage negotiations. 

2019
02:01:23,680 --> 02:01:29,960
They, they, they realize as the 
psychiatrist who treated us 

2020
02:01:30,280 --> 02:01:33,360
that, that people who come out 
of that situation are wounded 

2021
02:01:33,360 --> 02:01:36,880
and, and weak and confused. 
You don't know who you are 

2022
02:01:36,880 --> 02:01:39,280
anymore. 
And they need help and their 

2023
02:01:39,280 --> 02:01:43,880
family need help. 
And so, and that's what they do.

2024
02:01:43,880 --> 02:01:47,800
They, they step in at that 
point, very confidential work 

2025
02:01:47,800 --> 02:01:51,040
that they do, very difficult to 
raise funds for because they 

2026
02:01:51,040 --> 02:01:52,920
can't go out and say what they 
do. 

2027
02:01:53,240 --> 02:01:55,880
And, and it's a need that's 
increasing all the time. 

2028
02:01:55,880 --> 02:01:59,000
You know, I mean, right now, as 
we're talking, I can see a 

2029
02:01:59,000 --> 02:02:03,160
situations developing in the 
world where taking hostages is 

2030
02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:05,760
such a simple thing to do, you 
know, to extort a, a, a 

2031
02:02:06,440 --> 02:02:10,120
response. 
So yeah, if you buy the book, I 

2032
02:02:10,120 --> 02:02:13,720
assure you that the vast 
majority of the funds are going 

2033
02:02:13,720 --> 02:02:16,160
to be going to hostage 
international. 

2034
02:02:17,120 --> 02:02:20,160
You can, you can contact them. 
There's a Lincoln link on that 

2035
02:02:20,160 --> 02:02:22,920
web page that I gave you. 
You can contact them and check 

2036
02:02:22,920 --> 02:02:26,360
it out with them if you want to.
Because I'm I'm just, this is 

2037
02:02:26,360 --> 02:02:28,840
just a scam on my part to try 
and get rich quickly. 

2038
02:02:29,360 --> 02:02:32,120
But anybody, anybody thinks 
they're going to get rich out of

2039
02:02:32,120 --> 02:02:34,080
stealing books living in. 
Yeah. 

2040
02:02:34,160 --> 02:02:35,160
You sure don't. 
Yeah, yeah. 

2041
02:02:35,200 --> 02:02:38,640
Yeah. 
It's it's for the love of the 

2042
02:02:38,640 --> 02:02:43,040
project. 
And, and, and I can't you're, 

2043
02:02:44,280 --> 02:02:46,400
you know, again, I appreciate 
the fact that I'm not going to 

2044
02:02:46,400 --> 02:02:50,360
put you on a pedestal, you know,
and I appreciate the humbleness 

2045
02:02:50,360 --> 02:02:55,000
there when it comes to that. 
You know, but, but, but, but at 

2046
02:02:55,000 --> 02:02:56,440
the end of the day, I know a 
little bit of Bible. 

2047
02:02:56,440 --> 02:02:58,720
I can speak a little bit of 
Bible and I I know that that 

2048
02:02:58,720 --> 02:03:00,920
that one thing that we're called
to be is be a light. 

2049
02:03:00,960 --> 02:03:04,760
Be the light in the darkness. 
You are very much that. 

2050
02:03:04,760 --> 02:03:06,400
And I'm not going to say that 
you don't stumble. 

2051
02:03:06,400 --> 02:03:09,200
I'm not going to say that you're
going on the straight path of 

2052
02:03:09,200 --> 02:03:11,120
light. 
As you know, none of us are 

2053
02:03:11,120 --> 02:03:12,320
perfect. 
None of us are perfect. 

2054
02:03:13,000 --> 02:03:15,680
But Dave, you are a bright light
and, and, and you don't have to 

2055
02:03:15,680 --> 02:03:19,320
be and, and, and there's no one 
on this planet that would ever 

2056
02:03:19,320 --> 02:03:20,360
blame. 
You. 

2057
02:03:20,640 --> 02:03:24,080
For not wanting to be having 
gone through what you've gone 

2058
02:03:24,080 --> 02:03:26,200
through. 
But you are a light. 

2059
02:03:26,200 --> 02:03:30,000
And, and I just want to say from
the bottom of my heart, I want 

2060
02:03:30,000 --> 02:03:34,160
to express the gratefulness that
you have, have, have gone 

2061
02:03:34,160 --> 02:03:39,920
through this and have used it in
so many positive ways and strive

2062
02:03:39,920 --> 02:03:42,600
to use it in so many positive 
ways. 

2063
02:03:43,400 --> 02:03:45,760
This is literally why we do the 
show. 

2064
02:03:45,760 --> 02:03:47,800
It's, it's, it's, it, it's why 
he changed. 

2065
02:03:47,800 --> 02:03:50,600
It exists. 
It's, it's, it's a place where 

2066
02:03:50,600 --> 02:03:55,080
guys can, you know, share their 
story, whatever that looks like 

2067
02:03:55,840 --> 02:03:58,320
or an experience. 
And sometimes it's a, it's a, 

2068
02:03:58,320 --> 02:04:03,880
it's a, it's a long tail or 
sometimes it's a short ordeal 

2069
02:04:04,080 --> 02:04:07,520
that they go through, but we 
share it so then others can hear

2070
02:04:07,520 --> 02:04:11,160
it and take the perspective as 
to what we're going through. 

2071
02:04:11,520 --> 02:04:13,360
This is why he changed. 
It exists. 

2072
02:04:13,360 --> 02:04:16,600
And, and, and I mean, you know, 
this is our longest episode 

2073
02:04:16,600 --> 02:04:18,280
ever. 
And I'm really grateful that 

2074
02:04:18,280 --> 02:04:20,040
it's you. 
I'm really grateful that it's, 

2075
02:04:20,040 --> 02:04:24,920
it's, it's, it's this story 
because I mean, as, as we like 

2076
02:04:24,920 --> 02:04:28,840
to say on the show, so much good
food for so much good thought. 

2077
02:04:29,280 --> 02:04:32,360
Plus it's a heck of a yarn. 
It's a heck of a story. 

2078
02:04:32,360 --> 02:04:36,600
It's a heck of a, a narrative. 
My gosh, it's one of those 

2079
02:04:36,600 --> 02:04:38,920
things. 
And, and I just, I can't, I 

2080
02:04:38,920 --> 02:04:42,600
can't thank you enough for, for,
for your humility and being that

2081
02:04:42,600 --> 02:04:45,640
light. 
And you really, truly are, you 

2082
02:04:45,680 --> 02:04:48,800
know, you know, we, we're the, 
the idea of Christian, the idea 

2083
02:04:48,800 --> 02:04:52,440
of Christian is literally the 
word little Christ and, and, 

2084
02:04:52,440 --> 02:04:54,360
and, and I feel him beaming from
you. 

2085
02:04:56,080 --> 02:04:58,320
I really, really do. 
And it's all the good stuff. 

2086
02:04:58,320 --> 02:05:00,320
It's all the good stuff. 
And don't worry about that. 

2087
02:05:00,320 --> 02:05:03,200
I don't worry about the dogma. 
I, I, I, it's the light that I 

2088
02:05:03,200 --> 02:05:05,760
love. 
And, and, and to me, there's a 

2089
02:05:05,760 --> 02:05:08,920
lot of people flailing around in
the dark and listening to you 

2090
02:05:08,920 --> 02:05:12,400
today. 
Thank you, thank you for being 

2091
02:05:12,400 --> 02:05:14,040
on the show. 
Thank you for being vulnerable. 

2092
02:05:14,040 --> 02:05:18,240
Thank you for, you know, 
exposing yourself to the risk 

2093
02:05:18,240 --> 02:05:20,680
that you might burst into tears 
even though you didn't hear you 

2094
02:05:20,680 --> 02:05:23,400
were remarkably composed. 
And I just want to say thank 

2095
02:05:23,400 --> 02:05:26,560
you, Dave, for for everything 
that you've done to give back to

2096
02:05:26,560 --> 02:05:29,160
the world in the small ways and 
in the big ways. 

2097
02:05:29,160 --> 02:05:32,040
So thank you for that, brother. 
Yeah, Well, certainly from my 

2098
02:05:32,040 --> 02:05:34,640
side, Mike, thank you. 
And you, of course, do realize 

2099
02:05:34,640 --> 02:05:38,680
that people like me have. 
No like to shine unless we have 

2100
02:05:38,680 --> 02:05:41,800
somebody like you to broadcast 
it out into the world. 

2101
02:05:41,800 --> 02:05:44,320
So we we desperately need people
like you. 

2102
02:05:44,760 --> 02:05:48,280
You know, I appreciate the the 
opportunity. 

2103
02:05:48,360 --> 02:05:52,160
Thank you. 
Well, you did the heavy lifting,

2104
02:05:52,160 --> 02:05:53,760
my friend. 
That's that's not a problem. 

2105
02:05:53,760 --> 02:05:54,960
But you did the heavy lifting 
here. 

2106
02:05:55,320 --> 02:05:58,240
Everybody, thank you so much for
being part of this very special 

2107
02:05:58,240 --> 02:06:02,040
episode of He Cast. 
If you haven't downloaded the He

2108
02:06:02,040 --> 02:06:03,680
Changed It app, what the heck 
are you waiting for? 

2109
02:06:03,680 --> 02:06:06,760
Go to hechangedit.com. 
See what everything is all about

2110
02:06:06,760 --> 02:06:09,840
as we scale this thing and have 
a heck of a lot of fun doing it 

2111
02:06:10,200 --> 02:06:11,840
and help a lot of people as we 
do it. 

2112
02:06:12,200 --> 02:06:15,640
This has been another episode of
He Cast the official podcast of 

2113
02:06:15,640 --> 02:06:17,600
He Changed It. 
My name is Mike Chisholm. 

2114
02:06:18,200 --> 02:06:19,080
Go change something.