1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,400 Welcome to he cast, the official podcast of he changed it. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,880 As always, I am Mike Chism. As always, I am excited to sit 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,920 here and have an amazing conversation with an amazing 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:16,160 guest around the world of men's mental Wellness. 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,320 And boy, that is a big world and there's a lot of stuff there. 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,920 And the guy that we have on today, boy are, are he and his 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:29,400 wife and and his team doing something about the idea of 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,880 making men's mental Wellness a better experience in this world. 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,640 And for those who don't have that, a way to heal it. 10 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,600 His name is Peg Peters. Now Peg, he and his wife started 11 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,000 gathering groups, gathering groups, and you can find them on 12 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,240 gatheringgroups.ca. Now we're talking about the idea 13 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,440 of healing through psychedelics in this in this episode, because 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,280 they have devoted an entire purpose. 15 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,400 Really at the end of the day, I think about I think about what 16 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,760 Candy and her team are doing with he changed it and how they 17 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,239 are just driving hard every single day to build this 18 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,120 platform to build this community. 19 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,880 Well, Peg and his wife and and and gathering groups is doing 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,920 the exact same thing. What they're trying to do is 21 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,920 shed light on how psychedelics, specifically in their situation, 22 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,960 psilocybin or mushrooms can heal people and, and cause a curing 23 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:26,800 of anxiety, a curing of depression, a curing of some of 24 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,880 these amazing difficulties that, that, that, that people are 25 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:37,680 having in many cases. And they have it's, it's wrapped 26 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,360 around, you know, eight week sessions that they do over Zoom 27 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,800 followed up with a retreat where at their farm in, in, in Western 28 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,440 Canada, in the Fraser Valley in Western Canada. 29 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,280 And I mean, that's a, that's a beautiful part of the world 30 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:55,040 where then a high dose of, of, of psilocybin has taken. 31 00:01:55,040 --> 00:02:00,240 And you, they have four years and counting of results and 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,760 they're starting clinical trials with, with, with, with first 33 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,440 responders and some of these folks who have PTSD and whatnot. 34 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,720 And they're finding the results are absolutely incredible. 35 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,600 And Peg and I have a fantastic conversation where I believe, I 36 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,640 believe every adult needs to hear Peg or someone who has the 37 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:24,200 same information and articulate delivery system that Peg has in 38 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:25,560 teaching people. I think there's a lot of stigma. 39 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,040 I mean, we talk about men's mental Wellness. 40 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:28,920 There's a big stigma with men's mental health. 41 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,200 There's a big stigma when it comes to the world of 42 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,920 psychedelics. And Peg has cut his way through 43 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:39,600 that is the former pastor back in the day who left, left being 44 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,240 a minister. He worked for Trinity Western 45 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,200 University and and just left that because he felt that there 46 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:49,360 was a bigger calling and, and and you can tell this guy is 47 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,520 just living his purpose. His enthusiasm is infectious. 48 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,600 I appreciate him so much. So that being said, if you 49 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,360 haven't downloaded the he changed it app yet, what are you 50 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:58,960 waiting for? Download the He changed it app. 51 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,840 Go to hechangedit.com for details. 52 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,200 My conversation with Peg Peters is amazing. 53 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,880 Today you can find he and and his movement at gathering groups 54 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,920 dot CAA true, true solution for many people out there. 55 00:03:13,920 --> 00:03:15,880 And if you're listening to this and this resonates with you, 56 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,120 book a nympho session, see what is available. 57 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,440 Get out of that tunnel vision that you're in right now. 58 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:24,600 That's what we want to do. We want to make the world a 59 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,840 better place. Thank you so much, and I hope 60 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,960 you enjoy our conversation today with Peg Peters. 61 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,160 All right, Peg, I have been looking forward to this one for 62 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,560 the last couple of weeks. As I think I've mentioned on the 63 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,720 show before, there are certainly certainly elements of this 64 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:56,360 modern yet ancient healing, revolution, reformation, 65 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,200 whatever you want to call it that have been certainly 66 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,360 certainly calling out to me. I've got countless anecdotal 67 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,640 tales of how there were folks who were a certain way and then 68 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,840 they've gotten certain types of medicinal therapies that would 69 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,200 be considered a natural psychedelic, whatever those 70 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,120 could be, you know, however you classify it. 71 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,640 And you can probably give me some terminology today as we go 72 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,720 through this. And it has completely changed 73 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,920 their lives. And, you know, some people are 74 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,800 extremely, extremely hesitant to embrace this. 75 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,440 You know, the Nancy Reagan just say no years kind of a thing. 76 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,320 And, and, and, and there's a lot of confusion and things getting 77 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,480 lumped into different places. You have sifted through a lot of 78 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:45,160 that stuff and really started making a difference in all sorts 79 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,800 of people's lives. Peg, I'm so grateful that you 80 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,360 are walking around on this planet and that you're willing 81 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,760 to share some of the information that you have here, if you 82 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,760 wouldn't mind. Peg Peters, who are you and what 83 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,560 do you do? Oh, thanks, Mike, it's great, 84 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:01,960 great being on a podcast where we want to talk about these 85 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,720 kinds of issues and with people that are really open minded. 86 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,360 And I think that's, you know, I think what the biggest thing I 87 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,400 want to start with today is this idea of curiosity. 88 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,800 That's really a key just, and, and so if we, if we can approach 89 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,600 this topic with kind of an openness to say, hey, how do I, 90 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,240 how do I get curious about this new way of thinking about 91 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,120 healing and connection and community? 92 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,720 And that's kind of I, I for, for me, I'm, I'm not much interested 93 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,440 in just plant medicines as, as a pill of like, hey, we need 94 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,800 another pill to help us with our mental health challenges. 95 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,120 That's I'm not interested in that story. 96 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:43,960 I'm very interested in an ancient story, connection and 97 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,840 community as the foundation of what we're missing. 98 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,680 And that once we get together in a community in safe ways and 99 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,480 then we move into these ways of working with plant medicines, 100 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:58,240 then they can do powerful transformation inside of us when 101 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,360 we feel safe and connected with others. 102 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,080 I think most of the fear that people have around kind of the 103 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:09,320 war on drugs from 1971 on is these these stories of these 104 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,000 medicines that people take. And like, I'm going to take LSD 105 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,080 and jump out of a window or I'm going to fry my brain or I'm 106 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,520 going to somehow change who I am if I take these medicines. 107 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,720 And I think yes, they are very powerful and we need to respect 108 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,360 them. And I really want to start with 109 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,360 sense of a not like I'm not just like, let's legalize these and 110 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,960 put them in the water and let's get everyone, you know, high on 111 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,920 mushrooms. I'm really interested in a 112 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:39,800 careful communal way of working with these medicines in safe 113 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,960 ways with therapists in community. 114 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,360 Not to say you cannot have fun on these medicines 115 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,640 recreationally. I'm sure the way they need to 116 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,840 come into our communities is through a real safe model. 117 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,720 That's tested scientifically rigorous and and really builds 118 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,920 community first and then we can move people into these altered 119 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,400 states. So yeah, I'm, I'm my wife and I 120 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,960 started something called Gathering Groups about four 121 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,760 years ago and it's a 12 week program that prepares people 122 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,800 with two facilitators over an 8 week journey online. 123 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,280 So you have a group of eight people, 22 facilitators, you 124 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,080 meet weekly in a certain community of practice for eight 125 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,080 weeks. Then you come to a two night 126 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,880 overnight psychedelic retreat just outside of Vancouver here 127 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,960 at our farm and you go with your group and you go into a deep 128 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,560 kind of psychedelic journey. And, and then that's integrated. 129 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,680 We have dinner together, we sit around of fire, we integrate, we 130 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,120 share what's came up and then we come back online for four more 131 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,160 weeks and integrate what what came up in your journey? 132 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,880 What, what patterns in your life did you want to shift? 133 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,120 What things did you want to let go of that are now it seemed 134 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,640 easier to kind of let go of in your life. 135 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,840 And so that's that 12 week protocol that we've developed 136 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,320 quite rigorously have now been, we've done about 55 groups 137 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,960 through this. So over 400 people have gone 138 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,000 through this protocol and we've continued to refine it. 139 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,440 We've got physicians, a psychiatrist, over 30 therapists 140 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,600 have given feedback into this protocol. 141 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:16,160 And so this is a really powerful model that's based on an 142 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,560 Indigenous way of working with medicine. 143 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,720 And that's that's really key because Indigenous societies 144 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,160 have used these medicines for thousands of years. 145 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,560 We did not invent this. This is not Johns Hopkins in 146 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,080 1990s first doing their first clinical trial with end of life 147 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,960 anxiety, which is kind of the first stuff that came in the 90s 148 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,919 and early 2000s. That's not the first time that 149 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:39,360 we did this. And you can't even go back to 150 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,799 the 60s and say, oh, it was the 60s when they were using LSD at 151 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,880 Wayburn Mental Health Hospital in Saskatchewan. 152 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,880 That's where the term psychedelic was first invented 153 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,200 and coined was by a Canadian. And yeah, it I. 154 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,240 Had no idea. I have no idea the word Canada. 155 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,640 A point by a Canadian at the Wayburn Mental Health Hospital 156 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:08,280 in Saskatchewan looking at LSD for alcohol treatment disorder. 157 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:13,040 And so they were finding that this molecule that they had that 158 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,040 was discovered by Albert Hoffman, who had synthesized 159 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,480 this in the 40s during World War 2IN Basil, Switzerland. 160 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,160 He had discovered this molecule that was based upon an ergot 161 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,640 mushroom. He had synthesized the molecule 162 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,760 is called LSD. And they were beginning to use 163 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,640 this in the 50s in Canada. And we were the first country to 164 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:35,720 begin to look at this and why Canada. 165 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,040 And I think it's really important because in the 50s we 166 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,680 already had socialized medicine. So the Canadian government 167 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:46,200 recognized that we had a whole host of people that we were 168 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,920 putting into mental asylums, literally shipping people off 169 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,520 into institutions. Yeah. 170 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,920 And because we were dealing not with private medicine, which is 171 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:57,640 like, who cares? They're poor. 172 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,720 Who cares if they rot away? This was socialized medicine. 173 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,960 And the CCF, which is the precursor, the NDP, yeah, come 174 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,880 up with the idea that we believe as Canadians that mental health 175 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,920 and all health needs to be a universal thing, that no one 176 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,440 should be have less access just because we don't have money S 177 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,880 everyone should have access to the best treatments on the 178 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,760 planet. And so Canadians came up with a 179 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,120 psychedelic treatment for some of these big, big disorders in 180 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,880 the 50s and 60s. And we were the ones pioneering 181 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,320 this medicine with the idea of to help people with alcohol use 182 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,360 disorders, schizophrenia, things that no medicine could really 183 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,680 help. But this molecule was showing 184 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:42,600 promise. And so I really want us to 185 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,440 recognize that first of all, Canadians have played a really 186 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,560 key role in, in this. And #2 we're not the first ones. 187 00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:52,320 It's our indigenous brothers and sisters that have used 188 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,400 mushrooms. The Mazatec First Nations people 189 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,120 in Mexico have a 500 year history documented of using 190 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,520 these medicines. We know communities like the 191 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,080 Ayahuasca communities in South America have been using these 192 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,680 plant medicines for centuries as a way to work in community. 193 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:13,880 Never by yourself, it's always with other people that can hold 194 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:18,080 your discomfort and your fears and allow you to feel belonging, 195 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,200 which is really key. If you want to see shifts inside 196 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,200 your nervous system, you need to feel that you're safe and that 197 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,280 you belong. So that's, that's the kind of 198 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,400 stuff that we've been really looking at is group work with 199 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,880 psychedelics. And we've got a a clinical trial 200 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,320 coming up in 2025 in Canada looking at that exact issue with 201 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,320 first responders and psilocybin and using our group based model. 202 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,840 You don't say that very often. You don't put what you do in a 203 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,600 nutshell very often, do you? My gosh, that was very well 204 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,280 articulated, Sir. That is very well articulated. 205 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:51,760 How many times a week do you do that? 206 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,760 I don't know, man, but yeah, a lot because, you know, it's hard 207 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,080 because you have to kind of get past, like you have to get past 208 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,800 all of this, you know, 50 years of the war on drugs mentality. 209 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,080 Yeah, Yeah, you've got that that. 210 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,400 So you've got a social stigma against this, lumping it in with 211 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,400 drugs. We're hard drugs, right? 212 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,720 Like heroin and and fentanyl and these kinds of drugs that are 213 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,040 destroying our culture. They're destroying our people, 214 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,120 right. Yeah. 215 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:19,720 These are not the same medicines. 216 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,000 So first of all, they're not addictive. 217 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:27,520 So you have to go to like the top neuro neuropharmacologist is 218 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,160 named Doctor David Nutt. And if you can, you can put this 219 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,080 in your show notes. He made a graph of all the top 220 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,920 20 medicines on our planet that we that people use from cocaine, 221 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,040 heroin, methamphetamines, all the different drugs. 222 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,360 And he looks at the addiction versus harm rates, right? 223 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,120 Which is the ones the most addictive and which ones 224 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,160 actually create the most harm to the body and to other people. 225 00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:52,160 And he any you know, we look at nicotine and alcohol. 226 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,200 Alcohol is the number one. Absolutely the most. 227 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,240 Harm alcohol and we you know we celebrate alcohol in our culture 228 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,160 and the least on this list of pharmacology is psilocybin. 229 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,600 It's not addictive. It's impossible it has not it 230 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,880 has no addictive properties if anything it's anti addictive 231 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,280 because the experience is so big psychologically that you go whoa 232 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,360 I've got a I'm going to take some time to really understand 233 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,400 what happened here in my psyche. I don't want to do that again 234 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,400 for a long time, right. So it's not addictive. 235 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,480 And the harm wise, the only, only harm that we've ever 236 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,160 recorded, you cannot overdose on psilocybin. 237 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,400 It's a natural occurring substance. 238 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,040 So you cannot overdose. What will happen is a big 239 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,320 psychic material will come up and that can be really 240 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,520 challenging for a lot of people. So that you, if you're not in a 241 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,040 safe context that is kind of held well by a therapist or 242 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,080 friends or community, then this kind of material, if you're in 243 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,440 the wrong set and setting. So set is our brain, the kind of 244 00:13:56,680 --> 00:14:01,040 the intention we put into this, what, what set is going on 245 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,760 inside of us. And then the setting is the 246 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,160 environment in which we take it. So if I take mushrooms and I'm 247 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,840 in a chaotic place, I'm in traffic or in a downtown city, 248 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,520 it could really accentuate that. And I can feel really scared and 249 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,400 feel really overwhelmed. But if I'm in a real serene 250 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,920 place, we're calm and I'm feel connected, I feel real. 251 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,600 It's a belonging and love. And This is why I'm going to use 252 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,320 the word belonging a lot today, because this is the this is the 253 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,680 research that we've found is that if I can focus on one 254 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,200 thing, it's not the integration of this material that will 255 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,320 happen naturally. If you are with people that you 256 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,040 feel like you belong where you feel safe. 257 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,760 And if that happens and you do psychedelics, there's a natural 258 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,800 connection to integration that will happen organically. 259 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,280 And so satin setting are important. 260 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:53,640 And and so it's a big hurdle to try to get these, this story out 261 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,720 to the right people to say, can we get over our war on drugs 262 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:02,800 mentality and see these incredible organic gifts to our 263 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,040 planet to help us engage in the challenges of mental health 264 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,360 struggles that no medicine is really doing well at, you know, 265 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,160 at, at dealing with the issues of despair, isolation, 266 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:22,440 loneliness, depression, anxiety, PTSD, trauma, loss, all of those 267 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,480 kinds of things we see in our program. 268 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,520 And we see a massive shift for people. 269 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,440 And I'm going to put it at the level, and I'll be provocative 270 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:31,880 because people don't like this. Sure. 271 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,080 I'm putting up the level of cure rates. 272 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,520 We're not talking about we're diminishing your depression a 273 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,160 little bit. We're talking about you not 274 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,720 being depressed anymore. Yeah, done curing it. 275 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,240 Feeling a deep sense that I'm lovable for the first time, that 276 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:53,040 I, that I'm enough that my voice matters, that I am divine. 277 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,920 Even that happens for people and it has a long lasting effect. 278 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,840 Six, one year, 2 year follow up data on our group model is 279 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,720 saying this is sustainable as we work through this kind of this 280 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,640 kind of model and program. So I'm, I'm passionate about 281 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,040 this because our world needs this right now, big time. 282 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,680 You know, it's funny, you, you went through a whole bunch of 283 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,960 words, some of which are acronyms, conditions, some of 284 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,720 which have become buzzwords in our society. 285 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,120 You know, you just take PTSD, for example, and, and, and all 286 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,880 of that list that you went through again, so succinctly. 287 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,760 And I'm, I'm so glad that you're able to wave the flag and 288 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,400 communicate as clearly as you are, because clearly this is 289 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:39,920 what the lawmakers, the decision makers and, and, and also people 290 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,840 who are going through this stuff that have closed minds. 291 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,400 That is what is needed to open minds and to create dialogue. 292 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,800 So thank you for that. But you have gone through that 293 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,960 list that you just went through. You know, those are words and, 294 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,120 and, but, and especially buzzwords that we have only 295 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,320 discovered or, or come into contact with in the more recent 296 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,280 times. But what you're talking about 297 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,480 PTSD. Just because we created a label 298 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,720 for it and have a better understanding of it now doesn't 299 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,400 mean that 300 years ago it didn't exist. 300 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:16,400 Of course it exists 5000 years ago or 5000 or 100,000 years ago 301 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,319 in our evolution. Exactly, exactly. 302 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,800 And, and, and, and these things that you're talking about that 303 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,960 we are able to label and, and, and, and have a, have a more 304 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,280 succinct understanding of now, despite the fact that we have 305 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,240 this understanding now you're talking about a cure, a 306 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,440 treatment, a way of dealing with these things that has been 307 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,560 around forever. And really at the end of the 308 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,280 day, my question is, has it changed very much? 309 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:49,400 What's the difference between what, you know, dosage, types of 310 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,840 medicine that you use in your groups compared to what our 311 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,600 indigenous brothers and sisters would have been doing, you know, 312 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,200 100 years ago, that kind of a thing. 313 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,000 Has it changed very much? Has technology helped or do you 314 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,840 say technology get out of the way? 315 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,560 And part of the issue here is that there's no money to be made 316 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,040 for some of these big companies. And that's why these things 317 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:10,400 aren't embraced. And I mean, that's, that's, 318 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,600 that's, that's one where we could go down a big path. 319 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,640 On yeah, you know what, let's just just dip our toe in the in 320 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,440 that for a second, right. So Can you imagine like we are, 321 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,720 you know, we, we are dealing with something that, that, that 322 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,560 those of us that are doing research on this around the 323 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,480 planet and we're connected. So we've got, you know, 324 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,760 Australia and US and, and Switzerland and UK, lots of 325 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,080 universities, 143 universities right now currently have 326 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,200 clinical trials going on with psychedelics, 143 universities. 327 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:42,680 So this is. That's encouraging. 328 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,520 This is an encouraging. It's a kind of encouraging. 329 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,960 Thing in the last 10 years like it's just starting right yeah. 330 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,000 So where we're going to be in the next 20 years is going to 331 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,480 revolutionize how mental health is going to be treated on our 332 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,600 planet. It's going to take some time to 333 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,080 get our regulators and our decision makers to open up to 334 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,640 it. And we see a lot of kind of 335 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,840 maybe initial excitement and then we get a fear based 336 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:08,840 response. We even see this in Oregon where 337 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,200 they've legalized it in certain centers, but just recently on 338 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,680 the ballot initiative, uh, last week, uh, in or two weeks ago on 339 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,240 the US election, there was a number of counties that said, 340 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,920 you know what we don't, we, they lumped in psychedelics with all 341 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,560 drugs again and they said, we don't want fentanyl and heroin, 342 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,440 you know, legal. It's destroying our people. 343 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,200 We don't want this, we. And so they say no to all of it 344 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,280 again. And I'm like, oh, so there, this 345 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,960 is going to happen. We're going to, we're going to 346 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,360 face this, you know, openness and then a kind of restriction 347 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,880 of fear again. So let me, let me kind of go 348 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,200 back. Your question was what are you 349 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,680 noticing, you know, different now between, let's say our, the 350 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,360 ancient models and, and what we're doing? 351 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,840 I think the first is 2 things. One is is we are recognizing 352 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,760 that we do not heal alone. That our, our modern world has 353 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,000 been so focused on individual healing. 354 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,720 You go to your therapist or your psychiatrist because I need to 355 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,280 get fixed, right? There's something wrong with me. 356 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,720 I need to go to a therapist. And again, my wife's a 357 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,520 therapist, my best friend's a therapist. 358 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,680 Therapy is beautiful. It's an important part of our, 359 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,680 our world. It's not the answer to our 360 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,480 mental health conditions in the long run. 361 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,080 It's a stop gap. It can help some, but by large, 362 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,240 by and large, that is not how we heal. 363 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,000 We are wounded in communal structures, so we're wounded in 364 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,440 our families of attachment of origin. 365 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,360 We're wounded in systems and jobs and friendships in 366 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:43,160 marriages. We are wounded as human beings 367 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,040 and traumatized in our flawed communal structures. 368 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:51,160 So what Indigenous people have kind of taught us is that the 369 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:56,120 way to heal is to put you back into a safe community and begin 370 00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:59,680 to heal with others. So that you begin to recognize 371 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,200 that it's not just you are messed up and you've got a story 372 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,120 that, you know, you are part of a group, that we all belong 373 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:10,400 together and that even your stuff that you're navigating is, 374 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,720 is not special, that you are actually all of you are, you 375 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,320 know, all of us have stuff. And it begins to kind of 376 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,840 normalize the story that I'm not the only screwed up one that 377 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,000 needs to get fixed by the psych, you know, by the psychiatrist. 378 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,760 And so I think the biggest learning from our Indigenous 379 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,000 brothers and sisters and from our past is the importance of 380 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,240 community. Johann Hari has a book called 381 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,680 Lost Connections and Johann Hari is a great writer. 382 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,400 And in this book he looks at the rise of SSRIs. 383 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,440 This is depression medication, right? 384 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,440 So he looks at in the last 30 years, how is it possible that 385 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,920 something like, I don't remember the exact number, but it's like 386 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,440 200 or 300 million people daily take a pill to deal with their 387 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,720 anxiety and their depression. And this is their, it's a, it's 388 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,400 a daily dose of this thing in the billions, billions of dollar 389 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,360 industry that did not exist 20 years ago. 390 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,160 This happened. And he, he argues, he says, 391 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,120 what's the reason this is not has happened is not because, you 392 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:12,800 know, pharmaceutical companies have done great marketing, 393 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,040 although they have. It's that we no longer have 394 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,880 systems of, of place where we can really feel seen and heard 395 00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:23,440 in communal settings. Our religions no longer hold us. 396 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:28,280 They become places of shame, of sexual violence, of senses, of 397 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,600 places of fear, where we have notions of gods that are going 398 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,360 to send us to hell and feel that we are the worst. 399 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,480 So these models are no longer working for our mental health. 400 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,600 So we don't have those places of belonging. 401 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,560 Our families are beginning to split up. 402 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,720 Our marriages end. And 50% of the time our young 403 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,200 people move to places where they can get jobs. 404 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,120 They don't live around their parents anymore. 405 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,160 Our old people are farmed off into institutional housing. 406 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,000 So we no longer have our wise elders living among us, giving 407 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,600 us wisdom on how to live with this. 408 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,400 And So what happens is our lives became fragmented and isolated. 409 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,880 And Johann Hari argues that it's not that we don't have people 410 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,000 that we watch a football game with or hang out at a bar with, 411 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,080 is that we no longer have people that we can really be honest 412 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,600 with and talk about the deepest stuff of our life. 413 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,200 And when we no longer have those groups, our mental health is 414 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,240 going to slide and diminish and we're going to need substances 415 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,480 that can help us push that down. And that's what an SSRI does. 416 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,040 It mutes these feelings that are really overwhelming because we 417 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,240 don't have the the ability to sit with them. 418 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,400 Psychedelics do the opposite. They're not a suppressant. 419 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,640 Alcohol is a #1 suppressant of emotion. 420 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,160 We use alcohol to suppress the anger, the feelings, the 421 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,440 discomfort. I feel those are those are drugs 422 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,000 that suppress. Psychedelics are the opposite. 423 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,080 They open, they reveal. They the word psychedelic means 424 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,840 soul revealing or mind manifesting. 425 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:02,920 I didn't know that. Opposite so we this, this 426 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,560 medicine actually opens us up to these deep feelings that have 427 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,320 been trapped in our body. You know, we, we hear about 428 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,920 there's a there's a book called the body keeps the score by a 429 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,000 guy named Bessel van der KOK. It was a New York Times 430 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,840 bestseller when he looked at trauma getting locked in our 431 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,920 tissues in our body. And he says that if our body 432 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,640 keeps score, we remember these places of tension in our body, 433 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,600 that what we need is substances and and modalities to help U.S. 434 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,400 Open up our body to healing so we can feel these feelings again 435 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,560 and allow them to pass through US and leave us. 436 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,720 And so it's feels like how can a psychedelic heal trauma, right? 437 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,480 What, how can this work? Right? 438 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,640 It's not exposure therapy. You don't have to go back to the 439 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,600 trauma per SE. It's that these, these medicines 440 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,360 open us up to feel this with the down regulation of our fear 441 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:56,240 circuits. So our amygdala, which is our 442 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,600 fear becomes down regulated our frontal cortex which is always 443 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,360 this busy mind that. The decision making part, yeah, 444 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,200 yeah. And then all of a sudden what 445 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,680 comes online is our access to our emotions and our story 446 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,800 without fear. And so that can then open up and 447 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,000 flow through and out, allowing people to really navigate deep 448 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,320 personal trauma in a very short period of time. 449 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,760 Sometimes one or two psychedelic experiences with proper guides 450 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,880 and proper integration and people can really clear some of 451 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,400 this stuff. So I think we need community 452 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:30,520 again. Yep. 453 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,480 And and we need these ancient medicines again. 454 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,000 And if these two things could come back into our culture of a 455 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,760 deep sense of spiritual community, not religion, but 456 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,960 deep spiritual community and an openness to plant medicine on 457 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,280 earth, medicines as a way for us to now go back and say these 458 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,160 medicines used to be vital and integral. 459 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,600 If you go back to ancient it, you know, you go back to Western 460 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,520 traditions in Greece. So I did this last summer. 461 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,600 I went on a tour of Greece. And there's a site called a 462 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,440 Leucus just outside of Athens. It's 20 kilometers West of 463 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,640 Athens. It's on the coast. 464 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,280 It was the site of the largest psychedelic retreat that has 465 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,160 ever happened on our planet. For 1200 years, every year in 466 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,680 September, the third week of September was the temple of 467 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,160 Ellucis held 5000. People would trip in the 468 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:31,120 darkness with a psychedelic plant that they would consume in 469 00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:33,600 a by these priests. These female priests would give 470 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,040 it and everyone was allowed to go to this go to Ellucis. 471 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,440 It was Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, all went to Ellucis, 472 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,080 Marcus Aurelius, we we have records of all these ancients 473 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:48,680 that would go to a lusus. They would have to prepare for 474 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,840 six months with a group of 20. People. 475 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,480 Yeah, yeah. For this big journey and the 476 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,120 journey was to face your own mortality, right? 477 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,040 You have to face your own death. And and this is what the journey 478 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:02,920 was. You go to the underworld, you go 479 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,080 to Hades. In essence, that's the the 480 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,800 metaphor of the underworld that the Carl Jung called calls the 481 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,280 inner life, the inner psyche, the shadow parts of us. 482 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,760 You need to go down into the shadow into the Hades inside in 483 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,520 order to re emerge and realize that you know what even death 484 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,080 can't stop. Even my fear of death will no 485 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,800 longer hold me back to becoming the person that aligns with my 486 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,440 values that are full of love and connection. 487 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,640 And so you, you have this ancient practice for over 1000 488 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,080 years. We've got record of thousands of 489 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,200 people journeying men, women. This was the one equalizer in 490 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,120 Greek society. You know, you had they had a 491 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:44,800 very stratified society, right? You have slaves and. 492 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,760 Free people, classes, genders. Yeah, all of it. 493 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,200 All of it was. Once a year they dissolve that 494 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,720 anyone slave girls. Any slave girls that's the most 495 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,040 the lowest you could get could go and journey at Ellucis 496 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:01,960 alongside of an emperor because everyone in essence takes off 497 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,520 their hat and becomes the same when they move into an altered 498 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,720 state. It's like what Burning Man used 499 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,240 to be. It's the. 500 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,640 First Burning Man. It's the first Burning Man. 501 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,920 The Temple of Ellucis is the first Burning Man experience, 502 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,720 and early Christianity adopted these principles. 503 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:24,600 And a guy named Brian Murarescu, an ancient Near Near East 504 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,680 scholar and linguist, wrote a book recently. 505 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:30,800 If I can find it here, where was it? 506 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,280 Here? It's called the immortality key. 507 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,800 I'll put that as a note. And he documents using 508 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,640 archaeobotany. This is a new science where they 509 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,000 scrape vessels that they find in archaeological digs, like wine 510 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,280 jugs, and they can scrape it out and use kind of DNA evidence to 511 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,080 say what was in that wine? Was it just pure grape juice? 512 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,560 And what they find is in these Christian vessels where they 513 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,080 serve communion to the early church before 300 AD, before it 514 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,280 was became Christianized as the Christian Empire, the 515 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,240 underground. Before Constantine. 516 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,440 Constantine. Before that, yeah, yeah. 517 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,720 They would use psychedelic wine. So we have evidence now, 518 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,000 archaeological evidence of psychedelic substances inside 519 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,680 this wine in the vessels so that when the women would serve the 520 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,800 Eucharist in the early church, you were actually encountering 521 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,040 the divine within. This wasn't just a symbol of, 522 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,520 you know, Jesus death. This was actually allowing you 523 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,280 to go inside with this psychedelic wine and actually 524 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,880 have a divine experience of, of recognizing your own sense of 525 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,080 who you really are. So that's to me is controversial 526 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,240 for lots of people, but I'm fascinated by this kind of 527 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,240 history. I'm going to dull, I'm going to 528 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,280 dull a little bit of that controversy with a couple of 529 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,080 things that you said to, to, to make notes because as you you 530 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,360 kind of alluded to it earlier, it's not a catch all for 531 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,240 everybody. It's not everybody's different. 532 00:29:58,240 --> 00:29:59,320 Everybody's got a different thing. 533 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,280 You talk about religion and I mean, I'll tell you some of the 534 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,640 people in my life who are the most well adjusted people are 535 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,040 the folks who are part of a Church of whatever denomination. 536 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,880 I'm not even going to go down to which deity, never in mind 537 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,080 denomination. A lot of the people in my life 538 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,280 that are the most well adjusted people, people that I would 539 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,480 strive for to have a similar mindset towards are the ones who 540 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,680 are part of a community in a Church of somewhere where it is 541 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,760 all positive and there isn't some of the, the icky stuff that 542 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,080 that that that's headline grabbing and things like that. 543 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,920 I look at some of these communities and it goes back to 544 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,720 your 3C's because they're constantly present. 545 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,560 You talk about being curious, right? 546 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,200 These are people who are, they're constantly being 547 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,040 curious. They're always part of a 548 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,600 community where they can belong and they can connect with 549 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,760 because they are not in a place of fear of shame, judgement, 550 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,960 these sorts of things. Unfortunately, that, like you 551 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,920 said, is segregated. It's few and far between. 552 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,480 Many times, many times, you know, it's not one label covers 553 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,680 all. It is literally a case by case 554 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,160 situation. But the, the, the, the guts of 555 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,520 what you're saying is, is, is 100% aligned. 556 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,720 You people want to be connected. It's the whole reason why my 557 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,160 wife and, and, and her team are building. 558 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,880 He changed it. We want to create a digital 559 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,960 space where guys who haven't been curious, they have 560 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,640 literally been in tunnel vision and, and, and, and not taking an 561 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,000 introspective look at where they're at. 562 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,600 You, you nailed very, very, very much nailed. 563 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,480 You know, two of the key phrases that every guy out there and 564 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,320 then as she changed it and they changed it kind of come up that 565 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,920 that will also, I think it'll resonate between all three of 566 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,280 the, of the, of the platforms. You are not alone and you are 567 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,560 enough. And, and, and I mean, my word, 568 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,400 how do you not get to that place of knowing that you are not 569 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,240 alone and you are not enough without community, without being 570 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,400 curious and, and, and, and actually talking about these 571 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,600 things. And finally, the other part, the 572 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,840 other thing with my wife, she's got a background in, in what 573 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,720 would be called, I don't know if it'd be holistic healing or 574 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,960 whatever, but long ways back and, and you know, I haven't 575 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:19,600 needed a ton of, you know, MD doctors in my life for the last 576 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,720 15 years or so. You know, you break something, 577 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,640 whatever you got to get it casted, sure, but you have a 578 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,160 headache. And this is the part where I 579 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:27,880 appreciate where you're coming from. 580 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,080 You have a headache. We have been, gosh, 581 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,720 institutionalized to the place where, oh, you got a headache? 582 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,720 Take an aspirin, OK? Whereas she goes deeper and she 583 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,760 goes, oh, hey, what's caused this headache? 584 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,720 Oh, OK. It's something going on in one 585 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,680 of your, you know, with one of your organs. 586 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,240 Take this supplement and you go to the root of the problem and, 587 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,800 and you take the idea of the aspirin and the headache where 588 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,280 you're literally masking the headache and hoping whatever is 589 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:03,400 causing it will pass. OK, that might be benign even as 590 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,920 a, as a, as a thought, But when we're talking about 591 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,240 intergenerational trauma, trauma from our like stuff that we 592 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:14,120 haven't and you're literally creating a, a, a model a billion 593 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,880 multi billion trillion dollar industry. 594 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,360 You know, it's something I've been hearing the phrase the 595 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,560 industrial pharmaceutical complex being kicked around. 596 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,920 And again, not to say that it's not important to have these 597 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,280 things, but balances everything and things have to be checked. 598 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,960 If we have created a society where we are dulling the things 599 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,480 that could literally make a short circuit could lead to more 600 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,280 disease in our body. So it could fester, could lead 601 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,400 to disease of the brain where you know, we are not being 602 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,680 nevermind the best person version of ourself that we could 603 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,480 be. But we are now going down a 604 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,880 place where we are damaging ourself and others and where the 605 00:33:55,040 --> 00:34:01,080 our solution for it on scale is taking something that just dulls 606 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,720 it but does not get rid of it. This is a recipe for disaster. 607 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,360 And this is what we're seeing. And the ironic part is, you 608 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,080 know, this is where the addictions come from and all of 609 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,000 these things. And now those addictions are 610 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,560 being fed by these industries that are profiting from people 611 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,679 who are addicted to them, unfortunately. 612 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:19,760 And that needs to stop. That needs to change. 613 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,480 And again, I'm not saying we need to get rid of the 614 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,639 Pharmaceutical industry, not even close. 615 00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:28,040 Is that to be what our position would be or my position would 616 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:33,760 be, but it's the idea of letting in things that actually work and 617 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,000 not squishing them out. Has the resistance gone up or 618 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,600 down? So I hope all that what I just 619 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,320 said there is a good response to what you said. 620 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,920 We're on the same page. I'm super curious over the last 621 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,760 four years and beyond because it's not like you just said, 622 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,320 hey, let's do this. Four years ago, you clearly had 623 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:56,960 a lot of through line of, of, of of seeing impact and planning 624 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,560 and preparing to do this. Has the resistance gone up or 625 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,880 down in the time that you have started this peg? 626 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,640 You know, I think it's, it's the resistance has gone down and, 627 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,760 and I think, you know, I'll, I'll so last week I was in 628 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,040 Victoria, BC and I was asked to speak at the BC firefighters 629 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,520 conference. And now this is a a provincial 630 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,480 wide a conference where they're bringing their industry leaders, 631 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,120 their captains and, and really looking at issues to deal with 632 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,080 in the section I was dealing with was mental health. 633 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,760 So they were looking at, you know, what's going on with the 634 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,440 issues of trauma and and anxiety when it comes to our first 635 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,960 responders population. What we're seeing is that issues 636 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,720 of issues of suicide are actually rising and they're 637 00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:47,720 like, how do we stop this? These are like, what is going on 638 00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:51,040 with these, these these young men primarily. 639 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,680 And yeah, there are women involved too. 640 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,680 They're primarily young men that are going into this that are 641 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,200 facing horrific traumas that they have to deal with, 642 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,640 particularly with a lot of overdose problems. 643 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,000 So they're going into these scenes, they're seeing being 644 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,400 death and dying over and over and over. 645 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,520 And our bodies are not designed to be able to metabolize that 646 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,560 kind of trauma. And So what happens is that you 647 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,680 eventually dissociate from it, which means you no longer feel 648 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,040 it. You have to just you almost 649 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,120 glaze over like another, another OD. 650 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,960 I'm going to the thing. Now, what happens when you do 651 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,000 that is it allows you to have some kind of armor to be able to 652 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,120 show up at work and, you know, be on the job and rush into a 653 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,720 fiery building, but it doesn't allow your nervous system to be 654 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:35,360 able to pivot when you come home. 655 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,120 So what you've done is you've taught your body to shut down 656 00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:43,480 when it comes to hard emotional issues over thousands of 657 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,640 experiences. Then you come home to your wife 658 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,080 and your wife's like, you know what, honey, this is what's 659 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,400 going on in my life. And you're like, I can't, honey, 660 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,080 can you just stop it? I'm going to go get my Jack 661 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,200 Daniels and I'm going to, you know, I need 3 or 4 drinks 662 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,200 before we can talk. And this is what's happening. 663 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,680 And so when I go and speak to the BC firefighters, there's an 664 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,560 openness, you know, their head of their union, It was the one 665 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,480 who invited me and it said to me, Peg, we we need a new way of 666 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,760 helping our members navigate some of these traumas. 667 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,560 And we are looking at psychedelics as a possible way 668 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,800 that these these guys could navigate this and, and really 669 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,680 find some healing. And what we want to teach is 670 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,120 this ability to pivot. We want you to be able to bring 671 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,120 armor up when you were on the job. 672 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,160 I want you to be able to rush into a building and not think, 673 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,960 oh, what am I going to see? I love that you are a hero going 674 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:39,440 out there on the front line minds. 675 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,920 However, we need the ability for you to then come home, be able 676 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,640 to let go of some of this stuff, process it in community and then 677 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,840 show up for your children and be able to be present for your. 678 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,160 You know, 8 year old daughter that needs a hug right now and 679 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,480 wants you to read her a story on on your lap. 680 00:37:56,720 --> 00:37:59,800 Rather than I need to just check out and go into my man cave 681 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,880 with, you know, a bottle of whiskey and a game, which just, 682 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,640 you know, a game on the screen which allows me to just shut 683 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,800 down everything. That's what's happening. 684 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,600 And so psychedelics have the amazing, there's an amazing 685 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,160 opportunity here to work alongside our first, our first 686 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,320 responder population and really show that a model like this, 687 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,400 when it's done in community, it done safely with the right, you 688 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,000 know, set and setting in a communal setting can really help 689 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,480 our first responders find a model to navigate some of this 690 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,280 trauma and to be able to lift that up so that they can still 691 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,880 be aligned with their values. They want to show up for their 692 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,040 wives. I know that I talked to these 693 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,480 guys, they're not jackasses. They're beautiful men and women 694 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,120 that are wanting to do good in our world and that they're, 695 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:49,160 they're outmatched by the trauma that they're experiencing. 696 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,480 And it's totally normal for them to feel numb, to feel dull, to 697 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,920 feel like I, I just don't even want to wake up anymore, you 698 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,960 know? And I totally. 699 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,880 So there's a shift that's happening. 700 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,720 And I think it's happening because we're coming to the end 701 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,440 of our attempts to be able to navigate some of these kind of 702 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,680 things, and it's nothing's working anymore. 703 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,280 Our suicide rates are going up, depression continues to rise, 704 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,840 and nothing's working. And along comes into this story, 705 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,080 an ancient medicine that's inviting us into community and 706 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,720 into kind of knowing ourselves in a new way, finding this 707 00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:28,520 beautiful love that is inside of all of us, but has been masked 708 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,600 over by the traumas that we've experienced. 709 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,400 I think that's a beautiful story. 710 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:37,040 And so I hope to be part of the unfolding of this on a legal 711 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,880 setting in Canada, which starts first by research. 712 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,640 We need to get research data so we can show Health Canada that 713 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,600 we know it's safe. I've we've done it lots. 714 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,000 We need to prove it now in all these clinical trials. 715 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,880 It's safe and it's effective on the long term. 716 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,360 And there's no downside. There's no negative outcomes 717 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,560 from it. And so we think that that's 718 00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,240 possible. And so we're, we're, we're 719 00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:03,160 excited to start our trial in the spring of 2025. 720 00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:06,680 Yeah, that's really, really exciting about that. 721 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,960 Who is it's, it's first responders who are in the, in 722 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,400 the, in the trial here. And I mean, I, I hate the fact 723 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,720 that folks like the military or the the first responders have to 724 00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:17,880 be the tip of the spear to kind of get this thing done. 725 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,880 It makes sense, of course. I mean, of course it makes 726 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,560 sense. You know, you've got this, you 727 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:28,680 know, epidemic of, of, of, of mental breakdown that is 728 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,920 happening and it's, it's expressing itself in so many 729 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:32,360 ways in this particular industry. 730 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,920 But I'm thinking about the guy in the truck right now who's 731 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,520 driving, listening to us, who's going through that same thing, 732 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,320 who's living that quiet life of desperation. 733 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,000 And he's hearing this and, and, and, and he's starting to kind 734 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,360 of not be tunnel visioned and pop his head up and he's 735 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,960 starting to get curious and go, okay, this is really resonating 736 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,480 with me here. It should be something that is 737 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,880 available. And I mean, just to hear that 738 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,360 there is no downside, the level of scrutiny that that you are 739 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,120 preparing for and have already received no downside. 740 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,520 When I look at again, back to the, the pharmaceutical side, 741 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,640 they're able to show percentages and oh, well, in this number of 742 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,160 people, it was effective. Obviously there's this number of 743 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,480 people where it's not and whatever and it's not, it 744 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,600 doesn't outwardly appear to be nearly the same scrutiny. 745 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,360 And you need to have the energy that you have to do this. 746 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,960 The idea of combining what we do know when it comes to therapy 747 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,800 and, and, and, and how to unlock and relate to our mind, to our 748 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,520 body, to our trauma and get these things together. 749 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,600 And you combine it with this amazing medicine. 750 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:41,040 We've come so far as a society, but it feels like part of the 751 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,320 society wants us to not get to the place where resolution will 752 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,600 happen. What keeps you going every day? 753 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,000 What keeps you, what keeps you fired up about this? 754 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,160 Yeah. You know, I've got, I've four 755 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,840 daughters and so my wife and I have been married for 34 years 756 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,800 and we've got 4/4 grown daughters in their 20s and 757 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,160 they're, they, they've all been involved in the work we're 758 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,240 doing. And actually, you know, our, our 759 00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:11,600 origin story is that it was our oldest daughter that first did 760 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,160 psychedelics when she was 16 years old. 761 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,760 So this would have been 12 years ago at least. 762 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,640 And you know, and, and when she she came home and said, mom and 763 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:22,600 dad, I got something to tell you. 764 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,120 And I don't want you to be mad. I want you to listen to what 765 00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:27,400 what's happened. And we're like, what did you do? 766 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:28,760 You know, as a parent, you're freaking out. 767 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,240 Like what? Did you steal something? 768 00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:32,480 Did you get caught shoplifting or you know, that's where your 769 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,520 brain goes, right? And she said like she has 770 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,760 Crohn's disease, which is a real, it's an autoimmune disease 771 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,240 where your body attacks itself and it's very painful. 772 00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:44,280 And it's been a real, it's been a real hard journey for her. 773 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,960 But she had done her research and on her own, unbeknownst to 774 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,760 us. And she said, I decided to do a 775 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,560 high dose psychedelic journey with mushrooms. 776 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:57,800 And what happened, mom and dad is I, I had this divine 777 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,560 experience. I met this divine being that 778 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,320 really began to put me in touch with myself, my body, and to 779 00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:08,640 kind of explain to me that I, I don't have to fight this 780 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,880 disease, that I need to work with it and not have this 781 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,360 resistance. I've got to begin to a way of 782 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,080 gentling and bringing compassion and love into my body so that I 783 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,840 can connect my soul, my body and my mind in a real kind of 784 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,200 compassionate way. And I'm sitting here listening 785 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,480 to a 16 year old going, this isn't a kid doing this just to 786 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,680 get high. This is a kid with intention, 787 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:31,920 with deep spiritual wisdom and insight. 788 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,520 And we watched how she changed as a result of this over the 789 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,360 next years, you know, and we're like, I can't dismiss this as 790 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,520 just drug use. I had to say this was a profound 791 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,360 experience she had. And it took us a number of years 792 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,080 before, you know, I was ever comfortable enough to explore it 793 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,000 for myself. It wasn't until probably 2017 794 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,760 that I had my first psychedelic experience therapeutically, 795 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,400 which was profound, profound, profound for me. 796 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,520 But when you ask me what's keeping me going, it's these, 797 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,160 it's these young people that are saying we no longer want to 798 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,080 inherit. We inherit the way that you're, 799 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,840 you know, you mom and dad, your generation has dealt with mental 800 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,120 health. Yeah, we're done with it. 801 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,240 You guys have just slapped on pharmaceuticals to everything, 802 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,040 have pushed everything down and and trauma is not going away. 803 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,520 You don't have a holistic way of navigating it. 804 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,800 These medicines are coming in our lifetime. 805 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,240 We want to be the generation that begins to change things. 806 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,320 We want to begin to work with our themselves in a communal way 807 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,040 with an openness to these medicines and openness to 808 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,320 indigenous ways of knowing and being. 809 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,800 And we think this is a really important mom and dad. 810 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,040 And I'm like, that's what keeps me going. 811 00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:43,720 These young people that have this vision, I want a world that 812 00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:47,360 I can hand over to them that is no longer makes these these 813 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,840 medicines illegal, but instead gives a, a proper way to be able 814 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,720 to navigate this and do these kind of medicines in a Safeway. 815 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,280 My dream is that the kind of a gathering group model like this 816 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,960 is an open source model that can be used by researchers anywhere 817 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,600 on the planet and that we can put this inside of the Canadian 818 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,360 health system. Any Canadian should be able to 819 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,400 have this process paid for by their MSP contributions. 820 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,160 You should be able to say to your doctor or therapist, hey, I 821 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:17,440 want to do the psychedelic thing. 822 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,680 I want to really work on my inner life and say, OK, we'll 823 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,360 sign you up here, here and your, your payments are going to cover 824 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,800 been covered by MSP. It should fully be covered as a, 825 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,240 as a psychedelic, as a, as a psychological intervention. 826 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,280 If we can prove it safe and effective. 827 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:34,280 This should be available for every Canadian. 828 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,760 And so that's my goal. I've been to Ottawa, I've sat 829 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:42,440 down with people in the Ministry of Health, I sat down with my 830 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,400 MP. We, we brought people to them to 831 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:50,080 tell their stories of end of life anxiety being helped by, by 832 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,080 people with severe trauma have being helped. 833 00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:56,800 There was even a Senate report called the end is now. 834 00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,200 And, and, and that's an amazing title. 835 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,120 A Senate report that came up a year ago on Veterans Affairs. 836 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,480 They were the one who published it saying we need psychedelic 837 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,400 medicines for our veterans from the Senate of Canada with, you 838 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,400 know, Romeo de Lair as one of the people saying, here's our 839 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,480 hero, a general that helped us out in Rwanda who recognizes 840 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,360 trauma and he had his own PTSD from the Rwandan genocide that 841 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,560 he was there for. He's he is saying we need this 842 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,240 for our veterans. So when I hear a guy like Romeo 843 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:31,560 Delaire saying we need this for our veterans, why the hell is 844 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,280 Canadians not getting on board and saying why can't we open 845 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,160 this up? How come our our politicians are 846 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,040 resisting this? And this is really so it gets me 847 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,360 mad because there's so many people struggling right now and 848 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,160 we've got something that we know works. 849 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:51,200 And yet right now I have to try to raise privately $250,000 for 850 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,760 my clinical trial. No one's helping me. 851 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:58,360 Nobody wants to donate to this. No, no government organization. 852 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,080 We've tried for funding. No one cares about this. 853 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,080 And yet this is a cure that I know in the next 10 or 20 years 854 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,600 will come out and prove itself. But right now, it's really hard 855 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,680 to get this across the, you know, to get this acceptable and 856 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,840 by Health Canada. So we are going through the 857 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,040 right channels for clinical trials and we have to raise our 858 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,280 own money for it. And so that's what we're in the 859 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,120 midst of doing. So that's what gets me going, is 860 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,240 I want to leave this world better for my daughters than the 861 00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:30,040 world the way I found it when it comes to mental health and the 862 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,720 crisis of which I really think is a spiritual crisis on our 863 00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:36,200 planet right now. Very well said, Peg. 864 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,840 And you know, I, I go back to he changed it and what our mission 865 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,920 is what my wife's company and her mission. 866 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,320 I'm helping out with the you know, I'm, I'm the podcast host, 867 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,880 but I am well, well, well, also a massive supporter of this. 868 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:53,400 The huge part of where men are at these days and and is, is a 869 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,480 is a lack of purpose. And I'm curious, you're a, 870 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,120 you're a crusader, clearly a crusader. 871 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,160 Have you always been this way? Or is it one of those things 872 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,520 where, I mean, I, for me personally, I love, I, I do 873 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,240 enjoy my job very, very, very much as a financial planner. 874 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,840 But the part of the job that I enjoy is this, and it was when I 875 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,960 first hosted my very first podcast. 876 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:14,760 I've got 2 podcasts. I've got this one and my other 877 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,000 one, my Letterman podcast. And, and, and the first week I 878 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,960 did two or three heat casts and I realized, Oh gosh, I've hit 879 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,840 my, I found my purpose. And it's, it's to do with 880 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:27,240 connectivity. It's, it's to do with 881 00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:29,520 connection. I, my, my graphic equalizer on 882 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,280 connection is pulled way up to 11. 883 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,320 And I, I found my purpose. And I'm, and I'm 45 years old at 884 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:36,880 the time. I'm 48 now at the time of this 885 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,280 recording, I'm 45 when I find this out. 886 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,240 And it's like, Oh my gosh, it's like the best parts of all of my 887 00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:45,800 life thrown into one. I realize I have a purpose. 888 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:50,480 Not only that, there's a greater calling because, well, First 889 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,320 off, a greater calling because I want to help my wife achieve 890 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,480 what she wants to achieve. That's always a a certain 891 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,320 calling. But then what she wants to 892 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,000 achieve is to literally change the world with this platform. 893 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:04,120 And it all comes back to the irony of that is so many guys 894 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,120 out there haven't found a purpose. 895 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,600 And so my question for you is, were you always a crusader about 896 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,760 something and this is the latest one, or was that kind of that 897 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,720 light bulb, Oh my God moment. I have found my purpose and that 898 00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:20,200 is why I'm such a crusader. I'm super curious about that 899 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,080 with the. Yeah, I think it's a little bit 900 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,080 of both end. I mean, I'm, I've, I've been a 901 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,480 passionate guy my whole life. And you know, I, I was an 902 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:33,080 ordained minister growing up and, and so, yeah, I just had a 903 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,800 heart to build community and allow people to connect with 904 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:38,080 something larger than themselves. 905 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,480 I ended up having to kind of leave that I was teaching at 906 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,320 different universities and I was at Trinity Western and Simon 907 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:47,240 Fraser. University. 908 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,280 And I'm kind of leaving that kind of world of the Academy and 909 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,480 the church and I really started focusing on. 910 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,800 Bubble, the bubble you were in, right? 911 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:57,440 Yeah. It was, it was kind of too 912 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:02,120 small, like the notions of the churches I was in, their notions 913 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,720 of God were still fear driven and I couldn't, I couldn't get 914 00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:07,720 on board with any kind of fear driven notion of God. 915 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,600 And so the doctrines of hell didn't make sense. 916 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,640 They were, they were human constructs to in order to keep 917 00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,800 people in line. And then it's kind of moralizing 918 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:22,200 structures of rejecting, you know, gay and lesbian folks as 919 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,000 not, you know, as not part of the Kingdom. 920 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,640 I just, I couldn't get on board with an exclusionary framework 921 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,240 that says that is those are the people that are going to hell 922 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,120 and I'm the one. So I kind of pulled away from 923 00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,560 that. I got into social justice work 924 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,800 in my, in my 30s and 40s and started a, a nonprofit with a 925 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,480 buddy called Run for Water. And it's a, it's a, we raised 926 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,760 money for clean water projects in Ethiopia. 927 00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,440 And so I was flying to Ethiopia four or five times a year, 928 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,720 working with indigenous organizations in East Africa, 929 00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:56,960 empowering women with access to education and water. 930 00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:58,920 And that was a real big heart for me. 931 00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,840 And so I had AI had a big, you know, revolution there on I'm 932 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,960 like, Hey, this is a an issue that we can really change 933 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,880 getting people access to water and education. 934 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:10,920 And so that became a big drive for me. 935 00:51:11,720 --> 00:51:14,920 But I think it's really psychedelics that has have kind 936 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:19,400 of been, you know, I'm 54 now and and I I'm recognizing that 937 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,600 this is my mission now, you know, Yeah, when I encountered 938 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,960 psychedelics, I recognize that this has there's so many 939 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,840 possibilities. And and the downline of what 940 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,040 this medicine could do if it's accepted into our culture in a 941 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,720 Safeway has profound implications, not just on mental 942 00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:38,480 health. I want to mention this one 943 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,760 researcher that's been blowing me away lately. 944 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:45,560 Her name is Doctor Guldolin Gul with A2 little dots over EU 945 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:46,360 Right? Yeah. 946 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,480 L Golan, she was on she was on what? 947 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,400 Oh, she was on Radiolab podcast very recently. 948 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,800 Great 30 minute episode. Great insight from her and what 949 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,400 she's doing blows me away. So let me, let me just kind of 950 00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,800 give you a 32nd why, why I think psychedelics have so many 951 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,040 opportunities. She's interested in 952 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,480 psychedelics, not for necessarily the mental health. 953 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,760 She's interested in what what they're doing on the neuro 954 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,080 circuit level, which is it opens up what's called a critical 955 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,120 period. Now the critical period in 956 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,000 development is between zero and five years old. 957 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,080 We have the ability to do rapid language acquisition, rapid 958 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:24,720 motor, a motor skill development. 959 00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:28,000 We learn to walk within months. We're crawling around like a 960 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,240 baby and all of a sudden we're walking and we can figure that 961 00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:32,360 out. That's unbelievably complex 962 00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,160 motor skills, the ability to pick up objects with your 963 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,800 opposable thumb, like that's an incredible thing. 964 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,160 The ability to take I information in and name objects 965 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,480 that all happens between zero and five. 966 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,440 And it's a part of the brain they call the critical period. 967 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,400 It opens where we can have all this new acquisition of 968 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,320 language, of motor skills of all these things, and then it closes 969 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,320 and shuts down for the rest of our life and it never opens 970 00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,680 again. And what she discovered, which 971 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,120 is unbelievable, is that the only thing that can reopen it is 972 00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,480 psychedelics. Psychedelics can reopen the, 973 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,880 the, this pathway in her brain called the critical period for 974 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,800 at least 6 to 8 weeks following a high dose experience. 975 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,880 And it's, it's across the board, all site, all psychedelics can 976 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:17,200 do this. These molecules do this. 977 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:18,720 Now, what does that mean for her? 978 00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,080 She's working with stroke victims, people that have been 979 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,760 paralyzed after a stroke. They cannot walk. 980 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,080 They can't use their arm. She puts them on psychedelics 981 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,480 and brings in then. Wow. 982 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,320 Not just during the session, but for the window after this 983 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,200 critical period opens. She brings in physiotherapist to 984 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:42,120 work with these people to regain motor skills after a stroke. 985 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,560 Can you imagine this? Yeah. 986 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,800 She's working with people who've been paralyzed. 987 00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:48,800 Who? There's a guy named Jim Harris. 988 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:50,760 You type it in an outside magazine. 989 00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,320 The Outside Magazine is an adventure magazine. 990 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,240 Type in the guy Jim Hare. The title of the article is Jim 991 00:53:57,240 --> 00:54:01,000 Harris Ate Mushrooms after he broke his back and then he began 992 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:02,720 to walk. And you're like, what kind of 993 00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:05,360 story is this? It opens a critical period. 994 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:09,000 And if you begin to begin to what happens is our brain opens 995 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,640 up new connections, new wiring and you. 996 00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,640 And so this is not just helpful for, you know, spinal cord 997 00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,480 injuries, for trauma, for I mean, for, for physical trauma, 998 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,280 but it also is things like they're looking at autism 999 00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,840 researched. So adults that have a real, you 1000 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,200 know, on the spectrum, they could still, they're really 1001 00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,880 resilient to a resilient, resistant to eye contact, which 1002 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,920 is a very social engaging thing and hot physical touch. 1003 00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:40,920 They're, you know, they give people up and willingly, they'll 1004 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,880 take a high dose psilocybin or is LSD and all of a sudden they 1005 00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,920 have this ability to look people in the eye, ability to open up 1006 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,920 hugs. And as that they get comfortable 1007 00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,480 with that over the number of weeks, this can turn on a social 1008 00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,960 connection, you know, in, in people on the autism spectrum. 1009 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,520 So she did another study on MDMA where she looked at and said, 1010 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,960 OK, MDMA is this very pro social kind of medicine. 1011 00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,840 When you see it in rage, when people dance and people feel 1012 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,520 this love and connection. We use it in couples therapy 1013 00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,920 lots. But she gave it to octopus. 1014 00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,880 So octopus are, are very social creatures. 1015 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,840 I'm sorry, very opposite of social creatures. 1016 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:21,640 They're very, very individualistic. 1017 00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,240 They do not do well with other they fight so if there's another 1018 00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:27,600 octopus around, they'll kill each other immediately yeah. 1019 00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:29,320 They're very solitary individual. 1020 00:55:29,720 --> 00:55:33,960 So she gives an octopus MDMA and what happens is it turns on a 1021 00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:38,840 pro social part of their brain and octopus began to be social 1022 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,160 while they're on MDMA. Now this is unbelievable. 1023 00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:46,000 Just Google this MDMA octopus Goldolan and her research is 1024 00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,840 unbelievable, right. The stories that she's just 1025 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,840 talking about what does this mean for us? 1026 00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,720 What it means is this critical period which can possibly help 1027 00:55:54,720 --> 00:55:59,000 us, you know, restore motor skills to people can help people 1028 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,640 on autism spectrum, people that have had strokes can maybe can 1029 00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,560 be, you know, them this medicine be healing. 1030 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:08,360 But what it also proves that what it's doing in the brain is 1031 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:12,280 it's opening up new patterns of connection so that the story 1032 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,240 that you told yourself about that trauma that happened when 1033 00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:19,200 you were 5 on the psychedelic, you have a new story 1034 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,800 opportunity. You can reframe that story as no 1035 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,000 longer this thing that's destroyed your life, but maybe 1036 00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,000 as a thing that's allowed you to become resilient, actually 1037 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,920 welcoming in this thing that you've resisted. 1038 00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:36,080 And you can rewire your brain around trauma, depression, 1039 00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,040 anxiety. It's a nerd. 1040 00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,920 It's a new way for the brain to begin to make sense of our life 1041 00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,960 and our past. And so this to me, these 1042 00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,600 medicines are going to absolutely revolutionize all 1043 00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:53,120 medicine, not just mental health medicine, but all medicine is I 1044 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,080 think is going to be impacted by the power of psychedelic 1045 00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:00,680 medicines in the next 50 years. So we are just starting to see 1046 00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,520 the powerful impacts of this and people like Guldolin are showing 1047 00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,200 us. So go listen to the Radiolab 1048 00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:10,600 podcast, 30 minutes gonna blow your mind and you'll be like, 1049 00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,320 how do we get, we need to get more funding for this. 1050 00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:15,280 This is a game changer. We're looking at it for 1051 00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:19,200 Alzheimer's that these that we're looking at, she looks at 1052 00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,640 what's happening with Alzheimer's is brain decline, 1053 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,480 right? Psilocybin can open up the 1054 00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:27,120 critical period and we can arrest we can stop the cognitive 1055 00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,880 decline from Alzheimer's and dementia with psilocybin. 1056 00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,960 This is unbelievable. And and we're and actually, she 1057 00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:38,640 actually goes so far as to say, she says with MDMA, especially 1058 00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,240 the brain eventually gets used to MDMA. 1059 00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:44,560 And so if you use lots and lots of MDMA, you can actually kind 1060 00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:46,840 of it no longer has its efficacy. 1061 00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:51,000 And they think about 20 or 30 high dose MDMA sessions and your 1062 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,240 brain kind of no longer can respond. 1063 00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,120 It's not the same with psilocybin, but it is with MDMA. 1064 00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,560 And she actually said jokingly in the podcast, she says, if I 1065 00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,120 was you and you're a young person and you love doing MDMA, 1066 00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:03,800 you know, at a rave, that's great. 1067 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:07,320 You know, make sure it's safe and all that, but maybe do 20 1068 00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,600 and then stop and make sure you've got a couple of these 1069 00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,160 left in the bank. When you have a stroke at 60, 1070 00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,160 you want to be able to have access to this medicine so that 1071 00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,920 you can open up these this, this window in your brain, the 1072 00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:21,320 critical period. Again, you you need to kind of 1073 00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,960 save some for later when cognitive Klein is big and you 1074 00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:26,520 want this medicine to be able to work. 1075 00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:29,840 So what an interesting statement to me anyway. 1076 00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,760 So man, this stuff. I could talk for hours about 1077 00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:34,600 this man. And I love and I and I, yeah, 1078 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,120 your enthusiasm is infectious. And that's what needs to be. 1079 00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:39,320 You need to have somebody, like I said, a crusader, a flag 1080 00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,480 bearer, somebody who, who, who, who can get people excited about 1081 00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,040 this and can connect people and join people together. 1082 00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,600 Clearly you have all of those skills and they are all coming 1083 00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:54,280 to a, you know, to a point here that that is, is, is leading you 1084 00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:59,640 to this, this, this purpose that will help help all of humanity, 1085 00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:02,800 which is, and it's not, that's not an overstatement like it's 1086 00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,240 changing the world in the, in the, in the best way possible. 1087 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:09,360 We've used the word psychedelics a lot in this conversation and 1088 00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,240 you just kind of open the door to the idea. 1089 00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,240 Now I know psilocybin and mushrooms is where you're kind 1090 00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:18,000 of, what do you want to call it? Modality, you know, your 1091 00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:19,920 specialized ingredient, I guess you'd call it. 1092 00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,520 But at the end of the day, psychedelics is a broad term and 1093 00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,080 we want to make sure that we're not saying something that, you 1094 00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:33,120 know, psychedelics can do this. I would like to kind of define 1095 00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,280 that a little bit. What do you think about some of 1096 00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,400 these other, you know, the Ayahuasca's, the DMT's, the 1097 00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,560 Ibogains, the, you know, nevermind LSD and, and some of 1098 00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:44,760 these other ones that are out there in your mind? 1099 00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,280 What is a psychedelic that is a positive? 1100 00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,160 What are what are the psychedelics that are, that are 1101 00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,840 leaving a positive response on, on humans and have the potential 1102 00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:55,240 to heal? Is it all psychedelics? 1103 00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:57,640 Is it this one molecule and those molecules have been 1104 00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,200 altered into different, different ones. 1105 01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:02,400 Let's talk about psychedelic the word for a second. 1106 01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:04,160 Yeah, I know. It's a great, great, great 1107 01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:04,640 thing. Yeah. 1108 01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,720 The word psychedelics, you know, a mind or soul revealing. 1109 01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:09,560 Yeah, that's what that word means. 1110 01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,160 Is it kind of a category of these substances, Right. 1111 01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,280 And so you, you named a bunch, you know, you've got things like 1112 01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:20,000 mescaline and you've got LSD, you've got psilocybin, even 1113 01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,880 ketamine, ketamine is, is not traditionally A psychedelic. 1114 01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:27,200 Ketamine is a as a legal medicine that's used in 1115 01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,960 emergency rooms. It's a dissociative. 1116 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:34,760 So it first came on the scene in the 1960s during the, the war in 1117 01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,160 Vietnam that every medic would carry a little bit of ketamine 1118 01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:40,920 because what it does is it allows you to dissociate from 1119 01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,720 pain really quickly. The acting with, especially with 1120 01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:47,440 an injection, You can do an IM injection with ketamine and you 1121 01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:49,720 no longer feel pain, but yet you're still aware. 1122 01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,840 So it's not like you're gone. Like let's say you know, I'm not 1123 01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,400 getting your tooth extracted, but you can, you can. 1124 01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,440 So they use it on children when you, you know, set my brother's 1125 01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:02,920 a physician, so he wants to set like a six year old's shoulder. 1126 01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:05,760 They popped out playing football gives him a shot of ketamine. 1127 01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,680 It's a dissociative pain. So you don't feel the pain. 1128 01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,480 He can set the bone back in or set that the joint back in 1129 01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:15,240 without the kid freaking out as you're holding a kid down. 1130 01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:16,440 You don't want to do that, right? 1131 01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,760 So ketamine's a great, another great substance that's being 1132 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,840 used now. This is all of this kind of 1133 01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:26,560 class of substances. You mentioned ibogaine, which is 1134 01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:30,440 a really interesting one. This comes out of West Africa, 1135 01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:34,680 the Iboga tree. This is the root of the Iboga 1136 01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:37,280 tree. And now from this unique group 1137 01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:42,720 of this African tribe that boils this this Iboga root and 1138 01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:46,680 consumes it, and they have this about a 36 hour trip. 1139 01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,360 It's the longest psychedelic we have on the planet right now. 1140 01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:52,800 As far as notation, apparently it's not, it's not it's big. 1141 01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:56,280 It's a big journey, right? Yeah, but, but, but this the 1142 01:01:56,280 --> 01:02:00,160 the, so that's iboga, the plant that the, the molecule is called 1143 01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,400 the ibogaine. This albigen molecule is just 1144 01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:07,720 starting to be studied as having the ability to not just help 1145 01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,000 people get off of opioid addiction, but it actually 1146 01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,240 repair the burned receptors in the brain. 1147 01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:17,760 So it's not just like helping you get off of this, giving you 1148 01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,920 an experience where you no longer crave the medicine, but 1149 01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,160 it actually begins to repair the areas of the brain with 1150 01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:28,920 neurogenesis, new growth in the circuitry around these damaged 1151 01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:30,720 sites. Now, that's very unique to 1152 01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,520 ibogaine as a substance. So it comes from this West 1153 01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:37,840 African tribe that we've now going, whoa, let's look at this 1154 01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:40,640 scientifically. And we're like, this is the only 1155 01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:43,800 substance that we know on the planet that can really do this 1156 01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:48,320 kind of healing on an attic that has had deep, deep grooves of 1157 01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:51,480 addiction. We can help the person get off 1158 01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:56,120 and, and they and they no longer have the craving for the drug 1159 01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,440 and the healing, the receptor sites are actually healed 1160 01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,480 through new neurogenesis. I mean, that's unbelievable. 1161 01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:04,800 So you can look at ibogaine clinics that are running right 1162 01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:08,320 now in Mexico and other places. And right now it's still 1163 01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,400 illegal, just being tested. But to me, there's so much 1164 01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:15,560 promise with ibogaine for some of these opioid addictions that 1165 01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:17,360 are destroying our planet right now. 1166 01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:19,600 You know, we look at the Downtown East Side or any of our 1167 01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:22,920 our camps, our homeless camps that are just all over the 1168 01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,720 place. These homeless camps are full of 1169 01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:29,280 people that are deeply traumatized, who had deep mental 1170 01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:31,800 health struggles. And we no longer have places for 1171 01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:33,280 them. We don't have treatments for 1172 01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:34,920 them. And they just want harder and 1173 01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:38,200 harder drugs to be able to no longer feel the pain of their 1174 01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,080 life, the disconnection and alienation of their feeling. 1175 01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:44,800 What if, what if our way of navigating some of this 1176 01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,840 homelessness crisis is that we can pull people into ibogaine 1177 01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:53,000 clinics, help heal them and then help them get housed, help them 1178 01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:55,800 find connection, help them find jobs, help them. 1179 01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,600 You know, there can be a whole process of healing that we begin 1180 01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,760 to use these psychedelic medicines as a way to really 1181 01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,960 heal these people, not just, you know, white knuckling these 1182 01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:06,600 people. And you got to stop and get 1183 01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:12,080 clean and then go to a remember a, a was started by a Canadian 1184 01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:17,760 who believed that as LSD was the way to help people get off of, 1185 01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:22,200 of alcohol. So there is now this big anti 1186 01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,720 drug kind of thing. Their founder was first and 1187 01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:30,640 first was helped by his alcohol addiction by LSD in the 1950s. 1188 01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:34,040 So the history of psychedelic medicines are, are we've got to 1189 01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:37,400 listen to all these stories. So your question is, let's look 1190 01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,680 at these medicines and you know what, what, which ones are good 1191 01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:44,440 and which ones are bad. They're all helpful, but the key 1192 01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:47,400 is on all of them. It's all around the set and 1193 01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:50,200 setting. These are not a pill that you 1194 01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:52,240 take and you just kind of go about your day. 1195 01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:58,200 These are treatments that when paired with safe protocols with 1196 01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:03,080 therapy or or a communal group like this can be very 1197 01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:06,040 transformational, right? These can be profound 1198 01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:09,480 experiences for people and in order to, you know, in order to 1199 01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,000 do them safely, we want to prepare people. 1200 01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,480 We don't want to just say, hey, tomorrow, let's go, you know, 1201 01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:16,880 let's go deal with your trauma and you just take this at home 1202 01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,000 and you'll be fine. You're like, no, won't be fine. 1203 01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,200 You know, it is it's I do not recommend that right now. 1204 01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:26,960 We're not at the place yet where we are as a culture can just 1205 01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:31,240 kind of hand these things out. So I, I, I'm at this first stage 1206 01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:34,280 in Canadian, in our, in our Canadian laws, I'm looking to 1207 01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:39,040 legalize a protocol, a group protocol that's overseen by a 1208 01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:42,160 physician and a therapist. That's what I want to make legal 1209 01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:46,200 and that we can test this model and say if it's done in this way 1210 01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,720 in this treatment center kind of model, we, we're going to make 1211 01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:52,200 it accessible to Canadians and then we've got data and we can 1212 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:56,440 start getting lots of data. So yeah, I'm, I'm very open to 1213 01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:59,200 exploring the research around all of these different 1214 01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:01,080 medicines. Ketamine has its use 1215 01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:05,760 particularly for suicidality. Ketamine has an immediate anti 1216 01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:08,840 suicidal effect. So it lasts 7 days. 1217 01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:11,120 It's almost automatic, even without therapy. 1218 01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:14,440 A high dose of ketamine will actually relieve you from this 1219 01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:18,520 desire to want to end your life. It closes and it's back seven 1220 01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:21,200 days later. But imagine if this if we had 1221 01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:24,600 ketamine treatments with a therapist in every emergency 1222 01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:26,720 room in Canada. When someone comes in and 1223 01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:28,720 they're going to go into the psych ward and they've been 1224 01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:32,560 handcuffed against their will, traumatized more and brought in 1225 01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:34,000 because they're on the edge of a bridge. 1226 01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:35,880 And what do we do? We just put them a big 1227 01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:39,240 antipsychotic into them and dope them up and they walk around and 1228 01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:43,160 pajamas in the ward not not being helped at all that way, 1229 01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:45,040 right? We're just going, we're just 1230 01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,120 going to slow this whole process down for you. 1231 01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,400 Dumb. What if instead we can say, oh, 1232 01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:52,200 you know what, boom. I am injection of ketamine right 1233 01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:53,920 now in 5 minutes. We're going to talk with you. 1234 01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:56,600 We're going to sit with a therapist for an hour and we're 1235 01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:57,960 going to say, hey, what's coming up? 1236 01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:00,240 And all of a sudden their fear circuits go down. 1237 01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:03,120 They can be present with you. They're not psychotic. 1238 01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,200 And they can talk about the trauma that's going on and they 1239 01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:08,880 can say, wow, you know what? I can't believe that that was my 1240 01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:10,720 that was my feeling about 10 minutes ago. 1241 01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:12,600 I'm actually realizing I'm enough. 1242 01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:15,040 I'm lovable. And what if that was our first 1243 01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:18,520 response rather than antipsychotic, you know, so 1244 01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:20,600 ketamine, it's right there in the hospital. 1245 01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:23,560 Let's use it. Let's use this on some of these 1246 01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:26,160 people, right? So each of these molecules have 1247 01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:29,760 incredible opportunities in our healthcare system to be used 1248 01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:34,280 well and effectively within the right set and setting the right 1249 01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:36,400 safe context for these medicines, right? 1250 01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:40,520 And so for me, community is the number one context that I really 1251 01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:45,040 want to get psilocybin as this, this mushrooms as, as the way 1252 01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:48,680 that mushrooms could come back into our, our kind of collective 1253 01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:50,920 way of healing and in our, in our planet. 1254 01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:54,960 So I, yeah, I'm passionate about this and, and hopefully that I, 1255 01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:57,800 I, we, we can kind of move the needle in the next five years in 1256 01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:00,240 Canada. Peg, I'm I'm so grateful that 1257 01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:02,840 we're connected and that and that you've been connected with 1258 01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:05,040 he changed it as he changed it. You know, it's funny with he 1259 01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:07,720 cast. I, I see, you know, Gretzky 1260 01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:09,480 talks about don't go where the puck is, go where the puck is 1261 01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:12,120 going. And, and I look at what my wife 1262 01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:14,680 and her team are doing with, with, with he changed and it's 1263 01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,479 about to go to the next level. I've been saying that right from 1264 01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:19,200 the very beginning. Well, we've gone up 5 or 6 1265 01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,439 levels and now the, the, the next one's going to be a real 1266 01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:23,520 big one. And when that happens, I've 1267 01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:25,720 looked at myself, as you know, Candy has said to me, well, do 1268 01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:28,160 you always want to host ecast? I said, yes, absolutely. 1269 01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:30,240 In fact, I want that to go to the next level. 1270 01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:32,640 And one of the things that I've been doing and talking to people 1271 01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:35,640 like yourself do having these conversations is I want to be 1272 01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:37,840 the, the he changed at Guinea pig for some of this stuff. 1273 01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:41,520 I want to be the one that can come and, and, and have a 1274 01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:45,240 testimony that isn't just anecdotal, that isn't just a 1275 01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:47,560 conversation talking to people about what they're doing, but I 1276 01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:50,880 want to be able to be a testimony for some of these 1277 01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:52,399 things. And I'm thinking about gathering 1278 01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:54,319 groups and going like I'm being called. 1279 01:08:54,319 --> 01:08:57,840 And I think in our initial call, I think I told you that, that, 1280 01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:00,439 that there's something in this world that has been calling me 1281 01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:01,760 for a long time. I'm the same way as you. 1282 01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:05,880 I, I do enjoy a little bit of marijuana every now and then in 1283 01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:08,279 the in the form of an edible. I didn't start till I was like 1284 01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:11,560 39 years old. I, I was always a, you know, the 1285 01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:16,479 just say no, hit me real hard. So I have had very limited 1286 01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:18,760 experience when it comes to this stuff, but I know the 1287 01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:20,279 psychedelics have been calling me. 1288 01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:23,279 I know they have like, it's just something that's there. 1289 01:09:23,279 --> 01:09:26,439 And I think about what you just talked about the idea for eight 1290 01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,319 weeks of, of, of, of, of gathering and prepping and 1291 01:09:29,319 --> 01:09:32,080 getting part, becoming part of a group where you are part of a 1292 01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:35,479 group, you are enough, you are heard, you're given instruction, 1293 01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:39,680 you contribute, you receive. And then you come to a place 1294 01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,479 with that group and you're prepared. 1295 01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:47,399 And there is a step by step process on a farm in. 1296 01:09:47,399 --> 01:09:49,160 And if you haven't been to, you're in the Fraser Valley, 1297 01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,399 right? Yeah, the Fraser Valley, if you 1298 01:09:51,399 --> 01:09:53,680 haven't been to the Fraser Valley, western goes Canada, all 1299 01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:56,560 of Western Canada is beautiful, But but the Lower Mainland and 1300 01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:59,560 just outside Vancouver, they're like the idea of doing, having 1301 01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:03,520 an experience like that at a farm safe environment and, and 1302 01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,800 with the goal of literally changing your life for the rest 1303 01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:10,880 of your life, you know, taking stock as to where you are right 1304 01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:12,240 now. I mean, I think about the 1305 01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:14,160 computer that's in front of me right now, the computer that's 1306 01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:15,520 over there. How many times do we have to 1307 01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:18,480 defragment these things? You know, you go through life 1308 01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:21,600 and, and, and suddenly it becomes fragmented and then you 1309 01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,320 have to defrag your life. How many guys out there right 1310 01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:28,720 now are in their 30s, forties, 50s, and they've never defragged 1311 01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:30,120 their computer? Great. 1312 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:34,000 I love that analogy. It's beautiful because I think 1313 01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:37,600 we can all relate to this idea of we we need these processes 1314 01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:39,240 brought back into our culture, right? 1315 01:10:39,480 --> 01:10:41,480 Like if you think of our indigenous brothers and sisters, 1316 01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:43,600 we all have these indigenous backgrounds. 1317 01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:46,000 By the way, we come from, you know, I come from German 1318 01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:49,320 background, right, Mennonite and these kinds of things from way, 1319 01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:53,400 way back, 500 year lineage here. But we were, we were farmers and 1320 01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:56,080 communal people, right? We had processes that we would 1321 01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:57,360 do. And if you think about 1322 01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:00,680 indigenous cultures, they always had a coming of age ceremony, 1323 01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:02,000 right, Particularly for young men. 1324 01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:05,800 I have a real heart for men, you know, I have a real heart for 1325 01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:10,760 men to transform and, and to be able to be confronted by, by 1326 01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:14,080 their own ego, to say, listen, your ego is not central. 1327 01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:17,080 You need to be confronted by something larger than you. 1328 01:11:17,480 --> 01:11:19,400 And this is what a coming of age ceremony. 1329 01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:22,960 This is what a vision quest was. When you go out into the forest 1330 01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:26,560 with the elders, your father or grandfathers, and they would say 1331 01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:30,240 you're going to sit alone with food or water for three days in 1332 01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:32,960 a small area and all of a sudden you're going to start having 1333 01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:35,040 visions. You're going to do a whole diet 1334 01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:39,320 before and then you're going to be confronted by the the chaos 1335 01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:42,200 of world of of what's out there, you know, yes. 1336 01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:45,440 And all of a sudden what happens is you go inside, you look at 1337 01:11:45,440 --> 01:11:48,480 the fears on all the things that are coming up and then you 1338 01:11:48,480 --> 01:11:51,440 integrate that back in the community right after your three 1339 01:11:51,440 --> 01:11:54,040 day coming of age. I think we need these again. 1340 01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:57,960 I think psychedelics with men's groups can become rights of 1341 01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:02,120 passage again, where young men can work with elders and really 1342 01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:04,560 begin to say, hey, I need a mentor in my life. 1343 01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:07,400 Well, OK, first you're gonna go through a process where you're 1344 01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:10,120 gonna not just defrag your hard drive, but you're gonna look at 1345 01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:13,920 all the shadow parts of you, but you've suppressed and you're 1346 01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:15,960 going to be confronted by them. And then there's going to be 1347 01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:18,680 elders that have around who have already done this process, who 1348 01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:20,360 are going to help you integrate this. 1349 01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:23,760 You know, this is what I dream of, of a world where we have 1350 01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:27,320 elders again, where we have coming of coming of age kind of 1351 01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:30,080 ceremonies for men and women. Can you imagine? 1352 01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:33,640 You know, I talked to this guy named Mark Hayden who was the 1353 01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,240 head of MAPS Canada at one time. The MAPS is the the it's 1354 01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:40,720 Association for the Psychedelic Science, a multidisciplinary 1355 01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:42,360 association of psychedelic science. 1356 01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:46,640 And Mark Hayden, who now is an incredible therapist and 1357 01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:49,560 researcher in Vancouver. I asked him a number of years 1358 01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:51,840 ago, I said, Mark, where do you see psychedelics going? 1359 01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:53,360 What does good look like in 10 years? 1360 01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:55,920 And he without missing a beat, you know, I thought he'd talk 1361 01:12:55,920 --> 01:12:57,760 about research and all. He said sure. 1362 01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:01,680 What good looks like, Peg, is that mothers and daughters go 1363 01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:05,160 out on a retreat, four or five of them, and do MDMA with their 1364 01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:08,680 daughters together on a retreat where they can, as their 1365 01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:12,160 daughters come of age they can say, no longer be defined by 1366 01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:14,800 Instagram culture and what everyone else is thinking. 1367 01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:17,160 You define you. Find your inner star right 1368 01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,640 inside you and these mothers and these elders take their 1369 01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:23,040 daughters out and do MDMA together, he says. 1370 01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:26,400 What good looks like is a group of fathers go on a camping trip 1371 01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:29,760 for three days and they all do so a round of fire together. 1372 01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:33,080 And these young men open up to these older men and talk about 1373 01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:36,440 their dreams and their fears and their insecurities and their 1374 01:13:36,440 --> 01:13:39,040 sexual desires that they're trying to make sense of in a 1375 01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:41,800 porn ridden culture. And all of a sudden the men 1376 01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:43,480 begin to be part of this conversation. 1377 01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:46,600 That's what good looks like. And I was sitting there, my jaw 1378 01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:49,520 was on the ground, and I was like, that's what I want. 1379 01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:50,920 I want you. Sign me up. 1380 01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:53,080 I want that too. I want sign me up. 1381 01:13:53,440 --> 01:13:56,280 You know, and I'm Mike, I, as you talk about this, I'm getting 1382 01:13:56,280 --> 01:13:59,360 a little excited, but I had this idea as you're talking just now 1383 01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:01,400 and I know we're on a podcast, so edit it though. 1384 01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:05,560 Throw it up there, yeah. Wouldn't it be cool if you and I 1385 01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:09,080 were part of a men's group that I could help facilitate where we 1386 01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:13,960 bring 8 guys from the he changed it kind of platform and we 1387 01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:17,920 podcast this weekly and say, hey, let's, let's let's kind of 1388 01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:19,720 Week 2. We just had Week 2 with our 1389 01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:22,360 group of guys. We maybe bring on a different 1390 01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:26,080 guy each week and you and I have 1/2 an hour conversation about 1391 01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,760 this twelve week journey. And then we do many little 1392 01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,880 podcasts that we record about the transformation that we're 1393 01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:35,440 seeing with this group of guys. We go on a trip together over a 1394 01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:38,840 weekend and then we do a kind of a summary of what's changed for 1395 01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:42,600 these eight guys over the course of 12 weeks and, and listeners 1396 01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:45,160 could follow along. To me, that would that's never 1397 01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:47,680 been done before. That would be unbelievable 1398 01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:50,080 content, man. Yeah, Peg, if I'm playing poker, 1399 01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:52,200 that's called an insta call. I'm in, I'm in. 1400 01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:54,080 Yeah, you're, I'm in Like you're all in. 1401 01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:56,160 I'm all in that that. I'm all in, man. 1402 01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:57,200 I'm not kidding. Let's do it. 1403 01:14:57,280 --> 01:14:59,680 OK, yeah, let's set that up. I'm going to talk to Kennedy and 1404 01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:00,920 the team. We're going to set this up and 1405 01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:04,280 we will do exactly what you said I've already got as soon as you 1406 01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:10,640 say hey guys 2 names just popped into my head immediately from 1407 01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:14,400 part of the heat changed at world yes this sounds amazing 1408 01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:17,240 now for everybody else out there who's excited to have heard this 1409 01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:20,760 and excited gathering groups.ca is the best way to access you 1410 01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:24,680 like is that it's a website it's not a matter of social media and 1411 01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:27,200 things like that it's a matter of connection and so the best 1412 01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:29,040 spot is to. For somebody who finds us on the 1413 01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:31,760 website gatheringgroups.ca, you're going to find a lot of 1414 01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:34,040 information there. You can go to our our Instagram 1415 01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:36,840 too and there's some videos and that kind of stuff. 1416 01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:41,120 But yeah, do your research and then we have free info sessions 1417 01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:44,320 where we do about once a month and you can just we post them. 1418 01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:47,640 You can come in, we do a presentation on our model, the 1419 01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:50,880 research, the clinical data, the safety protocols. 1420 01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:54,040 And then you can sign up for a group and we try to launch one, 1421 01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:57,160 one a month. Some are all women's groups. 1422 01:15:57,160 --> 01:16:01,120 We have Co Ed groups and we have men's groups and my heart right 1423 01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:03,720 now is I want men's groups right now. 1424 01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:06,600 To be honest with you, 85% of the people that sign up are 1425 01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:07,800 women. Yep. 1426 01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:10,680 So that tells me that we're missing the mark with young men. 1427 01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:12,800 This is why he changed. It is the tip of the spear of 1428 01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:14,160 what my wife and her team are doing. 1429 01:16:14,240 --> 01:16:17,960 It's, I'm passionate about this, this work needs to get into the, 1430 01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:21,280 into men's work. And so I, I would love to be 1431 01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:24,000 part of that with you and, and really help change that 1432 01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,160 narrative. We need more young men opening 1433 01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:30,320 up their heart, being able to feel feelings, still being 1434 01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:32,600 strong men. But what it means to be strong 1435 01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:35,640 is not necessarily to be an alpha male that wants to use 1436 01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:39,760 violence to be able to show how strong is true strength is about 1437 01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:42,480 inner strength, right? It's about your ability to sit 1438 01:16:42,480 --> 01:16:46,000 in discomfort of your partner when they have a problem and in 1439 01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:49,880 your own life and not just suppressing that with alcohol or 1440 01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:52,200 running away or, you know, dissociating. 1441 01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:55,280 That's what all those things, someone who can sit in in the 1442 01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:57,760 pocket when it comes to difficult, and that's what 1443 01:16:57,760 --> 01:16:59,040 psychedelic work can help you do. 1444 01:16:59,720 --> 01:17:02,880 Oh, man, I mean, you know, one of the things early on Peg that 1445 01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:06,120 we've talked about in in in the heat changed it world is we want 1446 01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:08,440 to take back a phrase. And the phrase that we want to 1447 01:17:08,440 --> 01:17:11,600 take back is the phrase man up. And I know, I know this is I 1448 01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:13,520 know this will resonate with you immediately because you're a man 1449 01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:15,320 of a certain generation. You know what manning up is 1450 01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:18,280 manning up is stuff it down, you know, stuff it down and just 1451 01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:19,960 keep going. Stuff it down and keep going. 1452 01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:25,760 What you just described is the exact definition of what man up 1453 01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:30,480 should be and, and, and and. I just love that idea because 1454 01:17:30,480 --> 01:17:33,400 that's exactly what it is. You're preparing yourself in a 1455 01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:39,040 true, you know, integrity based way to give yourself tools to 1456 01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:41,120 deal with this world that's around us, those families that 1457 01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:44,480 are around us, what's inside of us that's truly manning up. 1458 01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:46,960 Yeah. I mean, you and I are going to 1459 01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:48,880 do this more and it might be public. 1460 01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:51,320 This is going to be great. I'm really excited about this. 1461 01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:54,200 I want to say thank you so much for taking time out of your 1462 01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:58,000 insane schedule with all of the crazy spinning plates you have 1463 01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:00,960 going on around you. Thank you for doing the hard 1464 01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:02,840 stuff. You know, you, you really, 1465 01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:07,440 really are in, in a nation, in a culture where we're kind of 1466 01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:09,880 encouraged not to necessarily do the hard stuff, the easy Rd. 1467 01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:13,320 You know, you, you've gone down the narrow path and, and, and 1468 01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:16,080 that is a hard path, but it is the path where all the good 1469 01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:19,440 stuff is and you're leading people down this path. 1470 01:18:19,440 --> 01:18:22,760 I want to say thank you, thank your wife for the your entire 1471 01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:24,800 organization for what it is that you guys are doing. 1472 01:18:25,440 --> 01:18:28,000 More to come, as Johnny Carson used to say, more to come for 1473 01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,320 sure. And thank you for taking time 1474 01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:32,600 out of. Your day, this is thank you for 1475 01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:35,120 your interest in this. And I think that you know your 1476 01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:37,960 your vision, the vision that Candy has your wife has. 1477 01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:40,320 Yeah, I just love it. I can get on board with this 1478 01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:43,960 vision of how do we create these communities of connection and 1479 01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:46,520 care that are deep. They're not just like, hey, 1480 01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:48,960 let's just go for a hike and watch a game, but actually 1481 01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:52,400 begins to do soul work, right? This deep, deep inner soul 1482 01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:55,160 journey work. And so I think that's a, it's a 1483 01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:57,960 coming together of two visions that I think are really actually 1484 01:18:57,960 --> 01:18:59,600 aligned. Absolutely. 1485 01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:02,760 So Mike, I, I love your enthusiasm and I really look 1486 01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:05,280 forward to getting into this project with you because we're 1487 01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:06,440 going to do this, man. Yeah. 1488 01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:08,640 Me too, brother. I'm Yeah, I'm stoked about it. 1489 01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:11,680 It's going to be great. I'll do a real quick outro right 1490 01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:12,960 here and then we'll say OK, bye. Privately. 1491 01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:15,440 This is exactly why we do the show. 1492 01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:18,240 I am a brokered record when I say that that term. 1493 01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:20,080 But these conversation conversations like this, like 1494 01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:25,120 the one we've had with Peg Peters today, just it takes us 1495 01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:29,280 from our place of automation and brings us out and it lifts up 1496 01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:35,000 and it hopefully for you, for people around you can cause this 1497 01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:38,360 introspection to show up. And that is what leads to change 1498 01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:40,680 is these initial thoughts. This is exactly why we do the 1499 01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:41,640 show. If you haven't downloaded the 1500 01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:43,240 heat changed app, what the heck are you waiting for? 1501 01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:45,480 Download it right now. We're updating it fast and 1502 01:19:45,480 --> 01:19:47,000 furious. Lots of resources, lots of 1503 01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:50,520 things going into the app here and and some big leveling up is 1504 01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:53,640 is is going to be coming here in the next 6 to 12 months and and 1505 01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:56,360 early than that actually really good stuff. 1506 01:19:56,720 --> 01:19:58,840 Go to hechangeit.com for all the details. 1507 01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:02,000 This has been another episode of he cast the official podcast of 1508 01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:03,880 he changed it. My name is Mike Chisholm. 1509 01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:05,240 Go change something.