1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,720 Thanks so much for tuning in to Reversing Climate Change. 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,040 I'm the host Ross Kenyon 2 sponsors right now, Rainbow and 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,440 Philip Lee LLP. If you give me a couple minutes, 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,040 I'll tell you about why they are very relevant to your interests. 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,840 So listen up. If you follow me on Sub Stack or 6 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,680 LinkedIn, you've probably seen me write for Rainbow recently. 7 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,320 They have a very idiosyncratic approach to how science is 8 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,080 commercialized and how engineering works within carbon 9 00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:26,920 removal. And I really like working with 10 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:28,080 them. I've learned a lot from the 11 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,160 people there. They're very smart, thoughtful 12 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,200 people and they're aiming to be the most developer centric 13 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,440 registry out there. What's cool about Rainbow is how 14 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,160 seriously they take field engineering experience. 15 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:40,960 They aren't. They're just to write a bunch of 16 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,600 detached rules about how things should work in the abstract and 17 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,440 then let project developers figure it out, know they are 18 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,840 very serious about field engineering, about how 19 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,360 operations actually work in the real world, and they take a 20 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,000 rigorous yet philosophical approach. 21 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,840 I'll link to those articles in the show notes in the sponsors 22 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:01,840 section. You should check them out 23 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,239 because it will give you a very good idea of why I think Rainbow 24 00:01:05,239 --> 00:01:07,880 is a very cool company and one that you should consider doing 25 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,160 business with. If you are a project developer 26 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,040 and you're thinking about which registry to use for your next 27 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,720 project, you should absolutely take a meeting with Rainbow and 28 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,480 see if there's a fit there. One thing to keep in mind that 29 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,760 is often very important to the project developers that I've 30 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,400 interviewed as a result of my work with Rainbow doing customer 31 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,440 discovery work, just trying to wrap my head around the 32 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,680 opportunities that they're seeing is how fast their 33 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,800 certification process is. They typically quote around 3 34 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,760 months to issue carbon credits, which is very short. 35 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,760 It goes by lickety split for registries. 36 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,240 So if you're a project developer, you're looking for a 37 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,880 registry to use to certify and issue your carbon credits. 38 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:48,920 Take a look at Rainbow links in the show notes. 39 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,760 Thanks so much for listening. I'd also love to tell you about 40 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,280 Philip Lee LLP. If you've been working in this 41 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,480 space for really any amount of time, you probably have noticed 42 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,440 that you do need competent counsel to do business here. 43 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,560 The contracts that get signed are, frankly, pretty weird. 44 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,440 You're going to need help from a lawyer with a red pen, I'm sorry 45 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,880 to inform you. Your only choice is basically 46 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,760 who they should be. And if you are deciding who they 47 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,360 should be, you should be considering Philip Lee LLP. 48 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,600 They've won Environmental Finances VCM Law Firm of the 49 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,680 Year for the last gosh, since 2023 essentially. 50 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,800 It hasn't happened yet for 2026. I imagine they're a contender 51 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,880 for it this year as well. They are the largest legal team 52 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,280 dedicated to the financing and development of carbon projects 53 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,400 globally, and they have offices in the US, Europe, and the UK. 54 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,600 One cool new thing I just learned actually is that they 55 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,720 have been listed as a firm in Chambers Global as a global 56 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,960 market leader in the area of climate change. 57 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,360 This listing alliance, Philip Lee LLP, with around 15 to 20 of 58 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,640 the leading law firms practicing in this practice area in the 59 00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:55,800 entire world. So Congrats to Philip Lee LLP. 60 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,720 Thank you to both Rainbow and Philip Lee LLP for your generous 61 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,800 support of the show. You make it possible for me to 62 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,040 dedicate so much time to putting out content that I hope is 63 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,800 useful to our friends and peers and fellow travelers in the 64 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,040 world of carbon removal, climate change, and carbon markets. 65 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,640 Thanks so much. Here's the show. 66 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,640 Hey, thank you so much for listening to Reversing Climate 67 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:27,640 Change. This is Ross Kenny, and I am a 68 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:32,680 carbon removal entrepreneur, and I'm so excited to lay out one of 69 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:36,840 the big interesting fights within carbon removal that if 70 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,160 you don't already know about this, will be a nice little 71 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,360 education and point you in some interesting directions. 72 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,360 It's come up on a number of shows recently and whether in 73 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,440 oblique fashion, if you can infer from some of what's being 74 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,080 discussed or explicitly, and it's most explicit in the show 75 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,200 that I did with Hannah and Barkley from graphite. 76 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:02,240 Graphite is taking waste biomass, drying it, packaging it 77 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:07,000 in a polymer and bearing it, and they have very high carbon 78 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:12,800 efficiency as a result. Carbon efficiency expresses the 79 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:18,600 rate of success at transforming the feedstock into the carbon 80 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,280 removal, and how much of that original carbon actually makes 81 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:24,760 it into a removal in a net sense. 82 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,480 So in the case of something like graphite, they have very high 83 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,200 carbon efficiency. They're basically just drying 84 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,480 out this biomass, packaging it up and putting it in a hole in 85 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,640 the ground. Contrast that there's something 86 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,680 like biochar that does burn and release carbon in the process of 87 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,600 making it. So because it's using biomass, 88 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,760 it's taking this carbon out of the fast carbon cycle and some 89 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,840 of it is being re released to the atmosphere during pyrolysis. 90 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,480 And so that's back in the fast carbon cycle where trees will 91 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,640 reabsorb it again over time. And then we'll enter into the 92 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,160 cycling process the biotch has created. 93 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,160 Some portion of that will remain fixed in the slow carbon cycle, 94 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,360 or somewhere in between those two poles was stored for a much 95 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,360 greater duration of time in the soil or the built environment or 96 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,440 wherever it ends up. But it's not. 97 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,240 The 90 ish percentage of carbon efficiency that graphite is 98 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,120 getting could be half of that. And what's interesting about 99 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:29,040 this is that depending on how you see the problem of climate 100 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,800 change, you will likely have sympathies one way or the other. 101 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,400 I suspect you probably already had feelings in the way that I 102 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,880 described this. Those are good to listen to, and 103 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,720 you should listen to what your moral intuition is telling you 104 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:48,160 about this characterization of carbon efficiency and how 105 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:53,480 important it is or is not. If all you care about is getting 106 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,720 the parts per million in the atmosphere down as quickly as 107 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,000 possible, focusing on carbon efficiency makes a lot of sense. 108 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,120 You know that the biomass that is being measured for carbon 109 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,240 efficiency, as much of it as possible, is being stored in 110 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,200 durable fashion. There's not a lot of extra 111 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:12,960 frills. Maybe there's some Co benefits 112 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,040 that are attached to this. Graphite does detail several Co 113 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,160 benefits that they believe that their approach to carbon removal 114 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,000 offers to communities that host them, but in my opinion, it's 115 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,760 not as robust as something like what biochar offers to 116 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,240 communities. Biochar, if you're not aware, is 117 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,320 the process of cooking biomass without oxygen, that process 118 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:41,640 called pyrolysis, that leads to highly porous, very high surface 119 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:46,280 area carbon that durably stores carbon. 120 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:48,760 The science is still going back and forth on whether biochar is 121 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,120 good for hundreds of years or thousands of years. 122 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,760 I don't actually think it's that important of a question. 123 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,200 And interestingly, it doesn't seem that Frontier does either. 124 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,240 Frontier, the advanced market commitment for carbon removal 125 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:06,040 doesn't buy biochar not for durability reasons, but because 126 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,880 it's not carbon efficient, which is a really interesting market 127 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,000 signal that we can talk some more about here. 128 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,880 But biochar's ability to have that much surface area and 129 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,560 porosity allows it to do really amazing work. 130 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,880 It plugs into so many things. I mean, the joke with biochar 131 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,240 people, we do a lot of memes of kind of poking up biochar people 132 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:28,320 a lot. It's all in good fun. 133 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,680 I love and respect what y'all are trying to do. 134 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,880 And I work with a lot of people who are doing pyrolysis for for 135 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,720 various purposes. And it really is crucial work. 136 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,320 But there is a funny sense with pyrolysis where it's all things 137 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:45,000 to all people, to quote Paul, or it's simultaneously a dessert 138 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,440 topping and a floor Polish and it's got everything in between. 139 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,200 And you can make a toothpaste out of it and it goes in the 140 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,000 built environment that is great for agronomic uses and blah, 141 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,840 blah, blah. It's kind of everything which 142 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:56,920 becomes a a joke in and of itself. 143 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,160 For instance, one thing I'm seeing a lot of that I think is 144 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,120 is really fascinating is using pyrolysis in wastewater 145 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,240 treatment and for biosolids. So literally, literally you can 146 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:13,640 pyrolyze and a lot of human waste is filled with nasty 147 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,320 chemicals at this point, very sorry to say. 148 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,440 A lot of the material that makes it into biosolids in general and 149 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,440 wastewater treatment have chemicals that are pretty nasty. 150 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,880 And the process of doing pyrolysis on the biosolids can 151 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,400 obliterate many of these forever chemicals that would otherwise 152 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,120 just permanently be traipsing their way through the 153 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,880 hydrological cycle that would have us be re consuming it in 154 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,919 various ways. And so being able to to to use 155 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:44,600 pyrolysis in this way is really wonderful. 156 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,280 And it's also amazing to see biochar in different grades be a 157 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,440 good fit for storing in the built environment. 158 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,760 I've seen studies that have shown that biochar in concrete 159 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,080 can make it much harder and longer lasting. 160 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:01,440 Agricultural uses are one of the places where biochar gets talked 161 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,600 about the most. And while we haven't seen the 162 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:08,360 the mainstream uptake of biochar yet, very, very smart people are 163 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,840 working on it. And it's a great thing to hear 164 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,080 because it slows down water working its way out of the land, 165 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,240 so it makes land more drought resistant because of its 166 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,360 porosity. And the way that the cations 167 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,640 work, fertilizer stays in the soil longer. 168 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,440 So you don't get things like eutrophication where there's 169 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,560 nutrient runoff that go into the waterways. 170 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,520 And then you have all this nitrogen that creates algae 171 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,080 blooms. And then when the algae 172 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,160 consumes, all of the free nitrogen creates this dead zone 173 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,560 that's deoxygenated and is bad for the environment. 174 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:39,000 And it's pretty nasty in places like the Chesapeake Bay and 175 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,840 other places. And because the fertilizer stays 176 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,480 there longer, we need to produce fewer synthetics fertilizers. 177 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,280 And if you can inoculate biochar with various types of fertility, 178 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,520 it can kind of do all of these things at the same time. 179 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,240 And, and more power to it. I think it's great. 180 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,320 And this is just me freestyling here. 181 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,120 And there are so many things for biochar that I don't even think 182 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,880 I know right now. The people who are working on 183 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,600 creating products and applications of biochar are some 184 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,120 of the most creative people in the space. 185 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,560 They're very passionate. Sure, we like to ride them a 186 00:10:09,560 --> 00:10:13,360 little bit because they are a quirky bunch, but huge amounts 187 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:14,720 of respect for what they're trying to do. 188 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,040 And you will notice that the amount of time that I had to 189 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,680 devote just now to even a small fraction of what biochar is 190 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:24,520 being used for right now is not equivalent to the time that I 191 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,400 gave to graphite and bikers, which is biomass carbon removal 192 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,320 and storage. BICRS, pronounced bikers, is the 193 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,120 category that graphite falls into. 194 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,640 So biochar less carbon efficient, You know it's 195 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:42,640 emitting some amount of carbon through pyrolysis that is making 196 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,080 it less able to compete on carbon efficiency grounds for 197 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,320 buyers who care a lot about carbon efficiency. 198 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:54,560 But can't you hear it that there are still so many reasons to be 199 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:58,480 doing biochar? There are so many problems with 200 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,520 the agricultural system, the food system, toxicity. 201 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,400 There are many other things that biochar can help us with beyond 202 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,120 nearly the climate benefit. So this is where we're going to 203 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:12,840 zoom back out here and ask the big question. 204 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:18,640 Do we care only about parts per million in the atmosphere or are 205 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,120 we trying to solve what many people call the Poly crisis? 206 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,320 You can listen to a show that I just did at the time of 207 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,560 publishing. This will be two weeks ago. 208 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:30,280 I did a show with Eugene Kerbachev from work on climate, 209 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,360 and we talked about the Poly crisis and these embedded crises 210 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,640 around. What's the joke? 211 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,160 This joke only really works in text, but it's an asterisk and 212 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,200 gestures vaguely at everything. Things do not seem to be going 213 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,520 very well right now. The world is feeling very 214 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,200 precarious, unequal. Many of the natural systems that 215 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,280 we've depended upon forever are under extreme amounts of stress. 216 00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:58,800 We're putting chemicals into the environment that are pretty 217 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,400 nasty. There's a return of geopolitics, 218 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,280 as people say, great power conflict is here. 219 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,400 Perhaps Pax Americana is a thing of the past, if it ever was. 220 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:14,280 And the rules by which we developed our civilization don't 221 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,000 seem to be going serving us very well, which is funny. 222 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,120 I think when people start going to therapy, there's usually a 223 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,600 precipitating cause. So as a kid, you're born into a 224 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,280 family of origin and that also doesn't always go very well. 225 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,080 The various ways that your parents treated you or even just 226 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,160 tried their best and it didn't really give you exactly what you 227 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,240 needed. It's something that I think it's 228 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,240 fair to say that most people, maybe all people, well, let's 229 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,680 just say most people are still processing. 230 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,160 And so some of the ways that you developed as a child to cope 231 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,040 with this difficult circumstance, there comes a 232 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:56,720 point in life where they no longer are helping you in the 233 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,720 ways that you thought they were. I'll give an example. 234 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,640 I think a lot of people, especially young men, grow up 235 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,160 and video games become a very important part of their lives. 236 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,680 They're very immersive. They're extremely fun. 237 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:11,160 They only get more fun as time goes on. 238 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,760 For the most part, they just keep getting better and better. 239 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,040 When you're young, you you have more time to goof around and to 240 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:22,000 play games and it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. 241 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,520 And then for some people, they perhaps find themselves in a 242 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,280 relationship and maybe find themselves even married, having 243 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,720 to work to earn enough of a living to support one's family 244 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,120 and contribute in a meaningful way. 245 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:37,440 And maybe you used to get 3 hours a day and now you maybe 246 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,760 get half an hour a day, and that's a really different 247 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,560 experience. If you need several hours a day 248 00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:49,360 of video games to regulate your emotional state as you once did, 249 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,480 life will show you that you actually don't have time to do 250 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,760 that and still be the kind of adult you probably want to be. 251 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,040 This isn't true in all cases. I'm sure you could find the 252 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,600 right spouse or right lifestyle that would allow you to pursue 253 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,880 this to your heart's content. But like the more things you 254 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,200 want to do in life, especially if you want to be a parent, you, 255 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,680 you very quickly learn that you only have time for a couple 256 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:14,360 things and they need to be things that are soul feeding and 257 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,960 important to you. And when they're not, you start 258 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,440 to notice like, wow, that put me in a bad state for the next day. 259 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,200 I do not feel refreshed in the way that I would have hoped. 260 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,880 And now there's even more pressure on me to go about my 261 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,600 life. I imagine if you're listening, 262 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,160 you have had this experience or no People who have, and that's 263 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,200 at that point, they start to realize, wow, the things that 264 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,480 I've been doing for my entire life no longer serve me. 265 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,160 I need help figuring something else out. 266 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,720 I got to change my life. I need to go to therapy. 267 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,080 I need to figure this out. And I think Poly crisis is a 268 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:51,040 good comparison to that. People who think about these 269 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,000 nested crises in terms of the Poly crisis are also noticing 270 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,600 that the what put us in this position, it's probably not 271 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,040 going to be addressed by the same kinds of thinking that got 272 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,040 us here. People love to quote the Albert 273 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,640 Einstein maxim here. He said we cannot solve our 274 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,480 problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. 275 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,280 For a bit spicier of a take, Audra Lords, the master's tools 276 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,640 will never dismantle the master's house. 277 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,280 There's a sense here that we can't just use the same system 278 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:25,120 as we broadly have now slap some carbon negativity on to it, you 279 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,880 know, slap the top. You have no idea how much carbon 280 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,880 negativity this baby can hold. To go back to that meme, we just 281 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,520 can't do that. In their view, all of these 282 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:39,880 systems are so entwined that this isn't a technocratic thing 283 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,880 to fix. It's just like, it's not. 284 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,320 It's not a machine that we need to oil and turn a couple screws 285 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:47,440 on. It's bigger than that. 286 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,920 There's a Dwight Eisenhower quote that comes to mind here, 287 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,240 too. He said if a problem cannot be 288 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,800 solved, enlarge it. I think that's very much part of 289 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,680 the Poly crisis way of thinking here is that we actually need to 290 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:05,320 be addressing several complexly integrated problems at the same 291 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,920 time. If all these problems are 292 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,400 emerging from some of the same foundational, civilizational 293 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:17,480 dysfunctions, mistakes, wrong turns, how far upstream do we 294 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,800 need to go in order to figure out what needs to be done to 295 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,560 change it? So those are pretty good cases, 296 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:25,880 right? I feel like I did both of them 297 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:31,160 justice, both the Poly crisis folks and the PPM people. 298 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,640 And I'm not trying to come down on one side or the other here. 299 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,640 I've actually gone back and forth on this one a lot. 300 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,880 My former company Nori, which was launched in 2017, the first 301 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,800 or second carbon removal marketplace and registry 302 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:52,080 depending on how you count it. And we very much took APPM 303 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,040 obsession way of doing things and we wanted to get to 304 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:01,600 commodified carbon removal. We wanted it to be fungible 305 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,040 against itself. We wanted a ton to be a ton. 306 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,119 We said a ton is a ton is a ton. Many times in those early days 307 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,280 it was more of an aspiration or desire than a true fact of 308 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:13,839 reality. Because of course a ton is not a 309 00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:16,760 ton. But the goal was to find out how 310 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,200 we can create enough supply here and simplify across the 311 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,880 dimensions upon which these tons were different from one another, 312 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,800 and just focus on the main characteristics that could make 313 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,440 them functionally equivalent, which could be something like 314 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,160 the years of carbon stored. Maybe that was the denominator 315 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,400 that we needed to just focus on and let everything else play 316 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,160 against one another. And then the hope was that once 317 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,160 you had this sort of fungible commodity market trading system, 318 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:46,880 you could do a lot of cool things with it. 319 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,120 It's how price discovery works. You have a lot of money coming 320 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:52,280 into this trying to figure out how to trade it, how to make 321 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,040 money on IT. People would probably build 322 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,720 derivatives on top of this. That would bring more financial 323 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,280 play into the space and more actors and more interest and 324 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,960 this would create hopefully a virtuous cycle. 325 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,000 And by the way, this is still a dream that's very latent. 326 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,320 There are several groups in carbon removal either on the 327 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,120 marketplace side or the registry side that have senior staff that 328 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,640 have the right background to operationalize this approach as 329 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,800 soon as it is is ready for it, like as soon as the market is 330 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,560 mature enough for commodities and derivatives for carbon 331 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,360 removal. There are players in the space 332 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,640 that are absolutely going to jump on this and are already 333 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,600 thinking about it, and we're just waiting for the demand to 334 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,760 come rushing in and for decisions to be made about how 335 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,880 to create fungibility across different types of credits. 336 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,880 Assuming that carbon removal, you know, doesn't face such a 337 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,520 bad time in the next couple years that it goes into 338 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:52,280 cockroach mode, then I think we're going to see this at some 339 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,280 point. So it's possible that some 340 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,120 version of this does come to exist, and I think that will 341 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:02,120 likely result in a lot more carbon removal being transacted, 342 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,400 show a much more obvious source of demand and price discovery 343 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,920 that will help people make better financial plans. 344 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:11,880 And when things are easier to plan, it's much easier for 345 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,440 conservative money to enter the space and therefore carbon 346 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,160 removal starts to grow. And that's a really good thing. 347 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,480 Again, though, listen to your heart while I'm telling you 348 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,440 these things. Are you hearing me talk about 349 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,680 the commodification of carbon removal and it is it making you 350 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,480 feel yucky inside? Because if so, then you probably 351 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,320 have some of this Poly crisis way of thinking in you. 352 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,880 Because the goal is not to simplify this beautiful diverse 353 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,160 world into a couple small characteristics. 354 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,240 And then have financial traders who frankly are overpaid and 355 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,880 don't need to have as prominent a space in our society as they 356 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,760 currently do making all the money, while the people who are 357 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,080 actually removing the carbon are basically just watching from the 358 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,080 sidelines as price takers. In a commodity market which 359 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,160 doesn't really serve agricultural producers very 360 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,080 well, why should it serve biochar producers any better? 361 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,000 So whatever. That's sort of a pecuniary, 362 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,520 selfish maybe case for why you might not like it, But also some 363 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,200 parts of it are deeper than that. 364 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,360 They're ideological. Maybe you don't like it because 365 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,640 it's only solving part of the problem, and it's not even 366 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,920 solving it in a particularly thoughtful way. 367 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,280 It's not solving it by acknowledging how complexly 368 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:30,800 nested all of these problems are. 369 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,680 It's doing it by creating a 2 dimensional world where they've 370 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,160 only pulled out the durability of the carbon removal. 371 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,400 And it's just trading carbon removal durability without 372 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,920 noticing that. OK, even if we got rid of PPM, 373 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,440 the biosphere is undergoing immense stress right now. 374 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,720 Biodiversity loss and toxicity and the livelihoods that depend 375 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,320 upon them are creating political problems, and we can't just look 376 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,160 to this one number to rule them all kind of thing to consider 377 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,120 ourselves successful at reversing climate change. 378 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,960 You can feel that way even while noting that a commodity market 379 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,840 for carbon removal might be the best way to remove the amount of 380 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,000 carbon necessary from the atmosphere to actually bring us 381 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,600 back to a stable and livable climate, both of those things at 382 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,840 the same time. I actually think this is a very 383 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,800 productive friction to have within carbon removal. 384 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,400 I'm not on any particular side of this one. 385 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,120 I'm glad that we have support for each approach going in here, 386 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,640 and it's going to appeal to different funders and buyers and 387 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,680 investors. And that's a good thing, because 388 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,840 I think we need the Poly crisis people here to remind the 389 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,600 commodification people that they're a little abstractions on 390 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:53,040 the computer that they're trading are cool and all, but 391 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,360 also not to forget how important the rest of this work is and to 392 00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:01,000 recognize how small of a piece of the climate puzzle they're 393 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,240 actually addressing when they're only looking at parts per 394 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,160 million in the atmosphere. And I think it's very useful to 395 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,320 have financial people involved in carbon removal who are 396 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,080 thinking about commodification because they are there to poke 397 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,400 at polycrisis people because sometimes polycrisis people can 398 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,720 be sloppy and holistic in ways that and trying to solve every 399 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,200 problem, you may end up solving no problem at all because it's 400 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,480 really hard to do one thing well. 401 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,240 It's hard for me to imagine that one could do all of these things 402 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,160 at the exact same time and make it all work and hang together in 403 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,080 a way that is financially viable and also communicable to the 404 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:42,680 average person, which is no small feat. 405 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,880 And the comms part of this is super hard. 406 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,880 Some of the most common pieces of advice that I give to 407 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:49,840 startups, they're all story related. 408 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,760 And look, I, I told you a complex story here today. 409 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,080 There's two antagonists and I'm trying to create some sort of 410 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,520 like dialectical synthesis between them of, OK, they can 411 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,680 merge in this way, They provide productive tension in this way. 412 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,440 And that's really cool. And that's like a somewhat 413 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,360 complex story. So if you're listening to this 414 00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:09,360 and you like it, maybe you like engaging with ideas to this 415 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,200 extent, but a lot of people don't. 416 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,920 Complex stories and climate are really challenging. 417 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,560 Have you ever tried to sell someone a product that was a 418 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,760 little bit hard to understand? Many people will want you to 419 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:29,280 stop talking as soon as possible so they can get back to their 420 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,160 brain not hurting. And not only that, but also some 421 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,320 of these ideas are inherently threatening to the ego. 422 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,480 If you go back and listen to the Eugene Kerbischev show, he talks 423 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,680 about how he actually really didn't want what he was reading 424 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,000 about the Poly crisis to be true. 425 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,320 He was reading Daniel Schmuckenberger or listening to 426 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,520 his podcast or whatever. These ideas were freaking him 427 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,720 out and he did not want the world to be in as bad of shape 428 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,680 as it was presented to him and even him. 429 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,840 Eugene strikes me as a compassionate, but as he says, 430 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,720 noble kind of person who wants good things to happen for the 431 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,600 planet, for the people, for all sentience that exists. 432 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,960 He just strikes me as someone who is probably a well wisher of 433 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,880 them. And even still, it was hard for 434 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,440 his heart to be open enough to take in that. 435 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,080 The crisis, as we're staring into it, is this big and this 436 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,520 difficult and is not merely one about pulling greenhouse gases 437 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,880 out of the atmosphere. That's a really big part of it, 438 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,400 a very important part of it. But if that's all you're able to 439 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,560 see, then it's only a fraction of the work that he's doing. 440 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,960 And already that's such, oh man, it's such an enormous task. 441 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,600 Just that one thing alone is already so huge and the life's 442 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,400 work of of many, many people to, to do properly. 443 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,040 What I would hope for when you listening is perhaps a better 444 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,680 way of understanding the group that you don't feel as much 445 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,600 sympathy for. If you're a Poly crisis person, 446 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,080 maybe you can feel a little bit of sympathy and respect for the 447 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,800 people who are so obsessed with parts per million that they 448 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,720 actually have a chance of, I think, bringing that number down 449 00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:13,920 by their focus. And if you are someone who is 450 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,120 very obsessed with PPM, I hope this podcast can nudge you in 451 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:19,800 the direction of, hey, like that's a big part of this. 452 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,680 But also you found the one true number that should be maximized, 453 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:27,720 but you actually didn't. And you also need to respect 454 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,760 that. There's a lot of complexity 455 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,160 outside of this one number. And the people who are are doing 456 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:38,640 this, who are poking at you, maybe saying that these tools 457 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,040 and this approach are not going to solve all of the problems 458 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:43,560 that face humanity at this moment. 459 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,560 I think it's also worth listening to. 460 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,840 And if you have resistance to these ideas in your heart, I 461 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,320 would try to make sure that you're not opposed to them for 462 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,240 egoic reasons. Make sure that you are opposed 463 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,560 to them because you think they are incorrect. 464 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,360 And why are they incorrect? And are there any parts of what 465 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:05,440 they're saying that they aren't incorrect about that It was 466 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,720 actually a really good point that you should take back to 467 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,440 your own way of thinking. That can make it better, 468 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,960 stronger, or just notice the limits to your ideas such that 469 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:20,040 you can become a wiser person. I think the answer to all those 470 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,000 things should be yes, and I can conclude it there if you're 471 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,680 listening. You work in bikers or biochar. 472 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,280 I hope that you think I was fair to your work. 473 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,760 I have a lot of respect for everyone who's doing this, and I 474 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,240 really don't take a side here. I'm glad that everyone is 475 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,920 bringing their own unique approach to this, and they're 476 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,080 appealing to different kinds of people too. 477 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,280 The goal is not permanent dominance of one way of thinking 478 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,400 over the other. Your way of thinking can change 479 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,840 not just because you learn things immature, but because the 480 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,160 world has changed around you. Sometimes it's happened to me. 481 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,040 I thought I believed one thing and I didn't even change my 482 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:57,680 mind. But the world has changed so 483 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,520 much around me that the application of those ideas 484 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,080 radically changed the values, application of those, the values 485 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,120 maybe didn't change, but the application of those ideas 486 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:07,560 change. I think being able to listen to 487 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,680 that and to be fluid enough to adapt when the circumstances 488 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,520 change is really important. And doing work like this where 489 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,760 you're able to sketch out where the disagreements are and also 490 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,560 to pay attention to your intuition and what your gut is 491 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,400 saying about when you about ideas. 492 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,800 Because I think that's a really important thing to listen to you 493 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,080 as well, that people who come from a more rational and 494 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,280 quantitative background sometimes lose sight of. 495 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,000 And I think it's wise not to. Thanks for listening. 496 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,480 Godspeed to everyone doing carbon removal in the most or 497 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,600 the least carbon efficient ways possible. 498 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,920 Thanks for doing all that you do, Bye for now.