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You're listening to the 
reversing climate change, 

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podcast by the team at Nori. 
The carbon removal Marketplace. 

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This is a show about the 
innovators and entrepreneurs 

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developing solutions to climate 
change. 

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Hello and welcome to the 
reversing climate change 

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podcast. 
My name is Alex on that, I get 

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her and I'm here in Seattle with
lovely co-host, Ross, Kenyan. 

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Keep getting those lovely. 
Stacking up, feeling extra 

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confident. 
Now. 

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Take it back today. 
You were not so lovely. 

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Ouch, I might have to edit that 
so it doesn't interfere with my 

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public perception as love. 
Yeah, it's scary just joshing 

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around as always. 
Well, we have an old friend of 

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mine who coincidentally moved to
Seattle a bit before I did, 

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we've been hanging out and 
talking. 

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We have with us here today. 
Jeffrey, Howard, editor, and 

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founder of Gratis, which is an 
online. 

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Publication that takes a 
pragmatic, approach to ideas, 

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and focuses on human 
flourishing. 

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We're very happy to have you 
here with us, Jeffrey. 

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It's a pleasure. 
Welcome. 

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We should also say at the start 
that for the first time, I think

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we're going to call a season 
break and break. 

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I think we're going to take a 
little break after this episode.

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I don't know exactly how long 
it'll be, but we have some 

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episodes that were planning. 
We've been doing this basically 

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non-stop for close to two years 
now and I think it's time to 

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regroup a bit strategize. 
Absolutely. 

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So we hope that you are enjoying
your holidays, some time with 

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family, resting recovering, 
getting some Moments of human 

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flourishing in a community. 
Nice, I know that I will be 

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taking a break. 
I will be off the grid for like 

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three weeks. 
You have. 

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Well earned it going to try to 
learn how to meditate. 

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That'll be fun. 
Hmm. 

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It's a, it's a good thing to do.
I'm sure that will come up in 

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the show here too. 
Well, we decided to do this show

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because well, where do I even 
start with this one? 

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Wendell Berry has come up so 
many times that it's become a 

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running joke. 
In fact, we had a fan, create a 

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bingo card. 
For Nori and Wendell Berry 

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himself is one of the Bingo 
squares. 

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I noticed that. 
Yeah, it's no longer talking 

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about doing the show with 
Jeffrey. 

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He's like, you gotta talk about,
Wendell Berry line. 

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I was like, yeah, and Jeffrey 
and correct me if I'm wrong. 

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So you just read this book by 
dr. 

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Patrick Dineen called why 
liberalism failed and this is a 

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book, very much in the same 
school of thought, as Wendell 

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Berry dr. 
Janine, is a communitarian? 

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I think he calls himself a 
Catholic, communitarian he But 

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it definitely is a Catholic who 
speaks in communitarian circles.

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So I think that's a dress, I 
pulled that from Wikipedia which

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as you know, is 100% accurate at
all times, but I could see that 

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I could see that fitting and we 
wanted to do an episode that 

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focus on the political 
philosophy of communitarianism, 

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because is strange, it doesn't 
break neatly along the political

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lines that you might expect. 
Sometimes you'll be reading, 

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Wendell Berry and be like, wow, 
this is, this is to the left of 

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Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth 
Warren. 

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And sometimes you're like, this 
is extremely Conservative and I 

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have a hard time mapping this 
given my political experience as

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an American in 2019 which for no
other reason. 

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I think it makes it interesting 
to read because it isn't exactly

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what you would expect all the 
time. 

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Like I know when I read a 
conservative, or libertarian or 

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Progressive or Marxist, I know 
what I'm getting communitarian 

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still have that like, little bit
like a surprise in there for me 

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like a little spice. 
So we decided to have Jeffrey on

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to talk about what exactly 
communitarianism is. 

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Why should we care should be? 
What does it have to say? 

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Because why don't I put words in
your mouth? 

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Won't you just want to just 
start off in the broadest terms 

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possible here? 
What is it communitarian? 

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Yeah, so let me offer. 
I want everyone to Envision a 

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square rather a diamond. 
So for a comfortable with the 

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left-right Paradigm, politically
speaking, the northern point, 

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you could see communitarianism 
which serves as a contrast 

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sometimes with individualism or 
even in some ways with 

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libertarianism and on the left, 
usually have a big focus on 

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equality and there tends to be a
greater comfort with government 

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or state intervention in the 
market, discomfort, with State 

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intervention in quote, unquote, 
the bedroom or in people's 

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private lives, the converse of 
that, on the right, you know, 

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more comfortably or 
traditionally more laissez-faire

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Market approach, but being more 
comfortable with State, 

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intervention into people's 
private lives, whereas South of 

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the Border, I guess you could 
say is More individualism or 

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it's really about really 
removing any means of 

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intervening and people's private
lives that people are free to do

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whatever they want. 
Essentially as long as they're 

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not harming other people, 
there's all sorts of squabbles 

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within that contain Chris corner
of the political spectrum and 

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then you have communitarians, 
which is really focused on 

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ultimately Solutions, come from 
communities, that ultimate 

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meaning comes from community 
that things need to be 

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determined through communities 
and by Community, that's on the 

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local level. 
As contrasted with say, maybe a 

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national or a global Community. 
It's really about the 

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particulars versus the 
universal. 

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And as we'll talk about the 
contrast between liberalism, 

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which focuses on a more 
Universal ethos or more 

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Cosmopolitan view. 
Communitarianism, might contrast

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with that with a more focus on a
local, or a particular context. 

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All right, so if I read this 
back to you, you have people 

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that are broadly left-of-center 
now, who are progressive, 

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they're pretty comfortable with 
state. 

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Ian changing various things 
about the economy, whatever. 

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And you have people that are 
right of Center who tend to be 

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suspicious of the state messing 
with the market and that sort of

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thing. 
But, communitarians seemingly 

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are suspicious both of like, the
federal government introducing, 

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a new suite of programs 
ostensibly to help people. 

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They think that's maybe too big 
and too distant a solution, but 

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they're also very suspicious of 
the market ordering Society, 

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according to its dictates to, is
that, yeah, I think that's 

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pretty accurate. 
You can depending on which type 

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Communitarians. 
You're speaking with, the may 

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also emphasize are being 
comfortable with State 

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intervention. 
The sense of more local state 

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interventions or economic 
solutions that are more locally 

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driven but it's, you know, 
they're going to be critical of 

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extreme laissez-faire approaches
or extreme Federal level 

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mandates. 
So how do you know that your 

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communitarian? 
It's fluid. 

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Its individual. 
I you know, I don't know. 

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I'm sure there are quizzes 
online honestly. 

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Materialism is probably so Niche
that there probably aren't any 

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BuzzFeed quizzes, whether you're
a communitarian or not. 

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Oh man, but I, you know, I think
a few Hallmarks you can look for

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is, you know, when you're 
considering ethical and moral 

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questions, do you see it through
the lens of is this going to be 

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good for my community or our 
community? 

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There's a slogan within sort of 
communitarianism is I don't 

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become a me without a we or 
something along those lines, 

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right? 
Like you cannot Cysts without 

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being part of a whole. 
And you can't just think of what

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is only good for me or what I 
want to do. 

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You're always thinking the 
context of, how does this impact

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other people? 
And ultimately as human beings 

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were relational creatures. 
Yeah, I was hoping I'd have a 

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chance to bring this up. 
Maybe you'll like this 

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Alessandra but there's a very 
famous Margaret Thatcher quote 

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when she was prime minister of 
Britain and she said that 

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there's no such thing as society
and that this is just an idea. 

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Leah. 
I was like, that's true. 

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The idea of society isn't 
something that I could point 

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out. 
It sort of in the idea realm, 

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but I remember people coming 
back and being like the 

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individuals and abstraction like
great. 

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So now, what do I do? 
It's useful, it's easier to 

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think in terms of individuals 
acting, or it's sort of like, is

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this going to take us down a 
road? 

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That's too weird. 
Well, I have a wrote that I'm 

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safe. 
I'm gonna walk you back. 

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Just to what you were. 
Just describing Jeff. 

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Jeff. 
Oh, Jeffrey a lot of it 

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resonated with me in terms of 
okay you're going to see 

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something. 
And you ask yourself, this is 

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good for my community and less 
so about like is it good for me 

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as an individual? 
I very very much identified with

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that because I have a loss of 
identity without my whole my 

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community. 
Never here's this, here's a 

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sticker it's a little bit 
different from what you were 

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describing with regards to 
locality. 

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So to describe my situation, 
I've lived. 

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In all four corners of the Uso 
Miami New York LA. 

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And now, Seattle spent three 
months in Denver, there are 

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people that I have in different 
places that are my community. 

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I talked to them fairly 
regularly, very close to my 

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family and they're my community.
And without the ability to talk 

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to them to see them to just 
continue that connection, I 

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would have a loss of identity 
but they're not local. 

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So can you be a communitarian 
without locality That's a great 

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point. 
I think you can be there's 

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definitely prefer communitarians
and especially for Patrick 

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Dineen in this book, Wendell 
Berry there is a publication 

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called front porch Republic, 
which they talk about Place 

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limits and community and markets
in a very specific way, but 

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like, Place does matter. 
But communitarians may talk 

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about three different types of 
community. 

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You have a community of place 
which is what we've talked about

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is your geography-based, right? 
Your neighborhood or your anchor

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to you. 
Have communities of memory, 

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which is a little bit more 
broad, sort of like we as a 

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community of Americans, right? 
We have this memory of the 

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American founding and certain 
mythologies that we have what 

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that identity in that Community.
Is it's the most abstract of 

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community that communitarians 
will talk about third is 

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communities of psychology where 
it's essentially, the 

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face-to-face interaction. 
The way we get fed by one 

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another emotionally, and those 
more human elements that we I 

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felt like those really 
meaningful moments of community.

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As I would say, we should 
definitely discuss that more, 

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but maybe we should do it 
through the lens of the book 

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here. 
So by liberalism failed, why did

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it fail? 
What were the Alternatives? 

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What even is liberalism's? 
I don't even know that people 

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can recognize you since we all 
swim in it and even if you're if

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you're listening right now, 
you're Republican or Democrat. 

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You're both still liberals in 
the broadest sense of the term, 

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you probably have more in common
than you might think what is 

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liberalism? 
Yeah. 

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So to your first A point Dineen 
would say liberalism failed 

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because it succeeded which is 
sort of a clever plan words. 

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But what he's saying there is 
baked into liberalism are a few 

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tenants that ultimately are 
going to or have or are leading 

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to its demise and so liberalism,
the way he defines it in the 

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most broader terms again it's 
not liberal Progressive or 

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conservative. 
It's a broad philosophical 

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tradition that generally starts 
back with John Locke. 

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Who is considered an Englishmen?
Who is considered the founding 

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father of liberalism, you have 
Liberals like Hobbs and his 

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employer. 
Sir, Francis Bacon. 

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And the idea is that there is a 
state of nature and this is 

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arguably kind of a fiction. 
Maybe a thought experiment that 

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just state of nature that we 
were all our most free state of 

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being that we are 
non-relational. 

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We are not beholden to sort of 
arbitrary. 

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Things of birth, such as your 
heritage, the religion of your 

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parents, the boundaries. 
You're born into all these 

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things that liberals consider 
arbitrary and limiting, and then

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in the state of nature. 
ER, as the most free being, you 

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are free of all those things and
you have certain rights as an 

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individual, which the most 
liberal Maxim is sort of. 

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You're free to do as you want. 
As long as you're not harming 

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others, that's John, Stuart 
Mill's harm principle and that's

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at the heart of liberalism as 
well. 

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And so this idea is that we 
exist as these non-relational 

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beings and in order to maintain 
that to avoid the sort of short 

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nasty brutish life, we enter the
social contract in which we form

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government, It's that, are there
to secure those basic individual

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rights. 
Lot of these are contained in, 

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you know, the Declaration of 
Independence, which was very 

235
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lucky. 
And and ultimately lat the 

236
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constitution for the United 
States and many other countries 

237
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and at the heart of it really 
is. 

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Individualism Denine also talks 
about conquest of nature. 

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So this really intersect with 
what we want to talk about with 

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the reversing climate change 
podcast is this philosophy that 

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nature is something to be 
conquered and and it's something

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to be controlled and we're 
reaping the fruits of that in 

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the ecological devastations is 
The Logical conclusion. 

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So those are just a few things 
have heard of it. 

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You have there's a lot there. 
I almost forgot. 

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We're on the reversing climate 
change pocket. 

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When I get there. 
I promise ya. 

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Try to take this dirty jokes. 
Thank you Jeffrey. 

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I love the anthropology of this 
because it's clearly just a 

250
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thought experiment. 
And if you don't have language, 

251
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if you don't have touch you 
Can't even develop your mind, 

252
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you know, but that attachment 
disorder yard you, you will not 

253
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do well in a group setting ever 
basically. 

254
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Unless you combat that in order 
to even make sense of the 

255
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universe, you need language to 
help you develop Concepts to 

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partition the. 
So it's not just 

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undifferentiated Mass, you only 
get that by being born into 

258
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relations and you don't just 
develop that on your own but 

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00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,200
sort of the contract Aryan view 
which is useful because it's 

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about consent, right about. 
How can people choose to consent

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to political order? 
Which is Otherwise just 

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banditry. 
Basically, like States, just 

263
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saying like I rule you, you must
consent and they're like, no 

264
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,700
there's got to be there's got to
be some consent in here, right? 

265
00:13:37,700 --> 00:13:39,400
And so they're trying to like, 
work their way into. 

266
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,500
How could someone consent to 
Define monarchy? 

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This is where like as I 
understand Hobbs is trying to 

268
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work towards this, whereas like 
on social contract theory and 

269
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contract arianism is very much 
like a world, like The Walking 

270
00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:52,500
Dead where you have the the 
various bands of people 

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encounter each other in a state 
of nature where there's no 

272
00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:56,900
overarching law. 
It's like, do we trust each 

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other do we agree to stuff or 
not? 

274
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And then Course, they'll just 
kill each other. 

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So the point is to, like, go 
ahead. 

276
00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:05,900
One more beat each other with 
bats or beat each other. 

277
00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:10,100
We hate spoilers spoilers. 
Hey, that was ridiculous. 

278
00:14:10,300 --> 00:14:13,400
That never happened. 
Yeah, so that's like that's part

279
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,300
of that, that tradition I guess 
you literally just said, a bunch

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00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:20,000
of words like you're like 
banditry, like what was that 

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00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,100
contract is own contract. 
Aryan is consult arianism think 

282
00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:26,100
what are these words wrong? 
It's, it's basically just, yeah,

283
00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:29,000
like, social contract theory. 
So like, like people how do they

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00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,000
agree and can How do you consent
to a government ruling you 

285
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,200
because right now, like, you 
don't you? 

286
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,100
Yeah, you've never given your 
consent to be governed. 

287
00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:41,700
But clearly you like, like, does
implicit consent work in this 

288
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:45,500
case or not people been fighting
this question very long time, I 

289
00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:48,100
like David Humes of the original
contract where he's like 

290
00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:51,000
implicit consent is like 
carrying a sleeping man onto a 

291
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,600
boat and saying, if you don't 
like it you can jump off. 

292
00:14:54,100 --> 00:14:57,000
So not so good. 
And also explicit consent is 

293
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,800
impossible and we would never 
all agree to the same rules. 

294
00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:03,300
So, it's like so does consent 
matter as a political principle 

295
00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:05,300
at all. 
Clearly, we want to present, you

296
00:15:05,300 --> 00:15:06,900
don't want the idea of like 
being governed without your 

297
00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:08,900
consent, but then how do you 
make it work? 

298
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:11,500
So, like social contouring 
thinking is trying to square the

299
00:15:11,500 --> 00:15:14,500
circle to this day. 
I still don't know how it works.

300
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,200
I see it on a spectrum and I 
also don't see quite how it 

301
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,200
works. 
Consents very important, it 

302
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,000
doesn't work anywhere, that's 
like maybe maybe the see stats 

303
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,400
people who want to like, that's 
what I was going to say. 

304
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,500
Like if you could truly opt-in 
like that's explicit consent but

305
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,800
so like unitarians might Come 
back and say, consent is not 

306
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,300
nearly as important as you 
think. 

307
00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:35,500
It is being born into these 
relations. 

308
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,600
You didn't choose your family, 
but that's on arbitrary. 

309
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,600
That doesn't mean you can just 
throw them to the curb as 

310
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,500
garbage. 
You owe them some bonds of 

311
00:15:42,508 --> 00:15:45,600
affection and love, or unless 
they're, like, horribly abusive,

312
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,200
unless you choose not to, unless
you're like, okay, this is 

313
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,800
something. 
But you have to make that choice

314
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,000
very consciously and explicitly 
like, okay, I want to dump them,

315
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,900
and I now I burn this bridge and
I will never walk back. 

316
00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:59,100
That's these, are some of the 
downsides. 

317
00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:05,400
Of liberalism that Denine sees, 
that quoting, the French 

318
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,900
Aristocrat who came to visit, 
America, Alexis de tocqueville 

319
00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:11,400
in 1829 and 1830 had couple 
volumes Democracy in America, in

320
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,100
which talks about at the heart 
of liberalism, is this idea of 

321
00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:19,100
freeing ourselves from the 
chains that bound the 

322
00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:21,300
aristocrats all the way down to 
the peasants. 

323
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,000
But what has happened? 
From Denise perspective. 

324
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,800
Is that these other chains, that
bind us family, the community 

325
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,300
Faith communities, Is cultural 
ethnic communities. 

326
00:16:31,300 --> 00:16:35,700
You name it that we inherit our 
inheritances, even down to Denis

327
00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:38,400
likes to talk about last name. 
So he'll give presentations on 

328
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,100
this book, and he'll talk about 
how Dineen means of Neen for, 

329
00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:44,400
it's like an aristocratic name 
or like de tocqueville. 

330
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,200
That's a name Smith. 
My last name is Deborah, which 

331
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,200
means war and I haven't wanting 
to change it and that's an 

332
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,400
inheritance, whether you wish to
pain or not, right? 

333
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,800
Yeah. 
He talks about how in trying to 

334
00:16:56,808 --> 00:16:59,700
liberate the individual from 
these aristocratic oppression. 

335
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,700
We've liberated individual from 
all other demands that we could 

336
00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:08,500
place upon one another that we 
are so focused on trying to make

337
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:10,599
the individual completely free, 
that we are. 

338
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,000
So non-relational that we are 
uncomfortable or not allowed to 

339
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,000
make demands upon one. 
Another and communities are 

340
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,900
based on us being able to make 
demands on one another where 

341
00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:22,900
it's like, hey I'm sick and 
unwell someone in my community. 

342
00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,800
I can make a demand of them that
have in an unspoken demand. 

343
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,100
Perhaps we're like it demand of 
them to come and take care of me

344
00:17:29,100 --> 00:17:31,800
because that This the other 
direction and we don't really 

345
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,400
have these strong bonds for a 
lot of us tocqueville. 

346
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,000
And we're Robert Nesbitt, his 
book The Quest for Community 

347
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,600
came up in this book, which is 
like an old favorite of mine 

348
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,600
because he's one of the 
conservative thinkers. 

349
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,900
I think is super interesting and
he has a great section in that 

350
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:49,200
book where he talks about how 
prior to the Industrial 

351
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,300
Revolution literature. 
Tended to be about feeling over 

352
00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:54,200
to find everyone. 
In my small town knows. 

353
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,300
All of my business. 
There I have no room to be 

354
00:17:56,300 --> 00:17:57,900
myself. 
I'm sure if you've ever been to 

355
00:17:57,900 --> 00:18:00,500
like a small town community or 
like your With your family and 

356
00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:03,500
you're just like everyone is 
constantly gossiping and knows 

357
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:07,000
everything about me and I hate 
it literature tend to be about 

358
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,100
being over hashtag holiday 
season. 

359
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:12,800
They're going to be listening to
this like on their walk away 

360
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,700
from the Christmas table. 
Yeah. 

361
00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:18,000
So you probably know listeners, 
especially, you have to live 

362
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,300
with that and that's just your 
life constantly, but then Nisbet

363
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:23,800
comes back and says, well after 
the Industrial Revolution 

364
00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:26,900
literature tend to be about 
alienation and about not feeling

365
00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:29,100
connected and things like some 
like, Franz Kafka. 

366
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:31,700
Thought you were just sort of 
like an anonymous person in the 

367
00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:33,600
city and you don't have any 
connections. 

368
00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:37,400
So basically we're just doomed 
to be unhappy is the point of 

369
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,900
that whole Spiel. 
Well, yeah, yeah, that's, that's

370
00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:42,800
the real worry. 
Here is as we've liberated 

371
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,400
ourselves so much and I speak of
this from a very liberal 

372
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,900
perspective. 
There's this concern as where's 

373
00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:51,800
my place. 
Like we have these very thin 

374
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,300
community. 
So, we, I think we all most of 

375
00:18:54,308 --> 00:18:57,000
us have communities that we 
talked about whether that's, you

376
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,300
know, the people I Go Boulder in
rock climbing with the People 

377
00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:02,700
who maybe share some certain 
political or philosophical 

378
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:06,000
views, maybe my family, or faith
in your whatever communities we 

379
00:19:06,008 --> 00:19:08,400
have some that are thin and some
are thick. 

380
00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:11,400
And by that is meaning, really 
these stronger bonds that 

381
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:16,200
they're more difficult to exit. 
So one of the celebrations, or 

382
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,500
achievements of liberalism is 
that it's made exiting 

383
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,400
quote-unquote, arbitrary, 
relations or arbitrary. 

384
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,900
Inheritance has that much 
easier. 

385
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:27,300
Go. 
Absolutely. 

386
00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:30,700
So in this book, will the book 
again is called Why liberalism 

387
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:33,900
failed and the beginning. 
He starts talking about how did 

388
00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:37,000
this point that our 
relationships are now super 

389
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,200
loose? 
And he makes some pretty 

390
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,500
sweeping statements. 
I'm not going to get into that. 

391
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:46,900
I mean there's a lot of yeah. 
Anyways. 

392
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,500
Hold yourself back and extend it
out. 

393
00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:50,900
Okay. 
And we're moving forward so that

394
00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:54,200
their looseness in relationships
and he very much implies like 

395
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,500
that, this is the terrible 
thing. 

396
00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:59,600
Like it has led to the demise of
like social, I don't know. 

397
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:02,100
I wouldn't even know how to 
describe the capital. 

398
00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:04,600
Yeah. 
But what's so interesting is 

399
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,800
like I almost see almost like a 
pendulum. 

400
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,900
So if I take a ball and I like 
swing it this way, there are 

401
00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:13,300
over here in an extreme super 
constraint, right? 

402
00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:17,000
They implicitly or just we're 
bound to some social contract 

403
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,000
that they never said yes to and 
then. 

404
00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:20,600
Okay. 
Then there's liberalism we let 

405
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,500
them go and that ball swings the
other direction. 

406
00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:25,200
So now we're so free. 
We're like, oh my God, I'm so 

407
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,400
far off the middle because now I
have thin communities. 

408
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,600
I have no one to take care of. 
Me when I'm sick. 

409
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,500
I had to bring me some soup or 
whatever it is. 

410
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,600
And so, I think that the feeling
that I got or the idea from 

411
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,800
listening to this book was well,
what relax? 

412
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,400
Like, it's just a normal thing 
where we can now come back to 

413
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,900
the middle, that there might be 
this natural order swing, where 

414
00:20:44,900 --> 00:20:47,700
we find in the end, we'll settle
on a middleware. 

415
00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:50,600
It's like you will have 
Community but you have more 

416
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,600
freedom to Define what that 
Community looks like. 

417
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,200
And we just might be at this 
particular point in time at a 

418
00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,600
stage because of Technology 
because of global Amy's where 

419
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,700
we're just so far on the right 
or left or whatever on the side 

420
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,900
that you're going to swing back 
mattress in the middle. 

421
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:11,000
I was doing this whole thing 
with my hands, I hope so. 

422
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,000
I think I wonder how much worse.
It'll get until it gets better. 

423
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,200
I think if you're if you're 
listening, take a catalog. 

424
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,900
Be like, do you go to church or 
you member of any fraternal 

425
00:21:20,900 --> 00:21:23,300
societies? 
Are you in a knitting club, or 

426
00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:26,200
reading group, or a bowling 
league, or you in any of these? 

427
00:21:26,700 --> 00:21:29,600
I had to send this to Jeffrey to
in prep for this. 

428
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:34,100
My favorite comedy ever. 
Peep Show still the greatest. 

429
00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:36,100
There's a great scene. 
I think I'm gonna send it to you

430
00:21:36,100 --> 00:21:38,400
also and I'll send it to you 
though, but they go on a double 

431
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,500
date and they go to this play 
and it's like local community 

432
00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:46,300
theater and they're like, this 
is terrible last money. 

433
00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:50,000
We could be watching heat with 
Robert De Niro and Al Pacino at 

434
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,400
home. 
It's like yes, like there's 

435
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,000
definitely like like the 
competition for my attention 

436
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,200
after work. 
Like, I'm sure you get home. 

437
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:04,100
It's like, would I like to And 
pray or go to a Bible study 

438
00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:07,400
right now or what? 
I like to, I don't know, go and 

439
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,200
play badminton with people. 
No I can watch literally any 

440
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,200
show in the history of the 
planet with no effort at all. 

441
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,600
I think it's just hard to 
compete. 

442
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,900
I think we're going to see a lot
more fighting on the internet in

443
00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:22,100
your apartment by yourself. 
Before we see people joining the

444
00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:24,000
stuff again, I hope I'm wrong. 
Yeah. 

445
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,000
I like John was you're saying, 
is maybe it is a pendulum. 

446
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,600
I'm generally an optimist of 
blah things but I do see a lot 

447
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:35,300
of this pessimism where we are 
both from Market means as well 

448
00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:38,200
as through government 
interventions were able to 

449
00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:42,100
isolate and not have to invest 
as much in communities because 

450
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,200
we can fall back in something 
else and I can think of a couple

451
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,800
of examples in which in my own 
life. 

452
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:50,100
So I think to Ross and I met in 
DC during my second stint in 

453
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:54,700
d.c., it was actually during my 
first go at DC that after 

454
00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:58,800
finishing a semester of teaching
I was you know I was In some 

455
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,100
sense, under employed under 
housed, I was crashing where I 

456
00:23:03,108 --> 00:23:06,900
have your I can find housing 
with people, as well as I didn't

457
00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:12,100
have enough money for food and 
I'm grew up inherited a very 

458
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:15,400
powerful, very thick faith 
community that I can still. 

459
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,900
Although I'm non-practicing more
culturally a part of this 

460
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:20,800
community. 
I can go in many places across 

461
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,500
the country and I can tap into 
people with a shared this sort 

462
00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:28,800
of shared story shared is only 
the people's Temple or Yeah, 

463
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,700
it's one of those. 
No and but I'm in DC, I mean, 

464
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:35,900
this hard place and I'm no 
longer practicing the faith, but

465
00:23:35,900 --> 00:23:39,300
it's still part of my community.
My family heritage and I go to 

466
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:43,700
local clergy, talk about my 
situation and being as sort of a

467
00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:45,900
law of reciprocity. 
I've given so much to this 

468
00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:49,200
community throughout most of my 
life that in speak with local 

469
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,500
clergy, they're able to provide 
a little bit of help with food 

470
00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:55,800
for a couple months for me. 
And that's something that that 

471
00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,100
is a thick community that is 
providing Support and help to me

472
00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:02,800
that I've placed a demand on 
them because they've been able 

473
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,800
to place a demand on me whereas 
on contrast if I'm not part of a

474
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,700
really strong Community, I'm not
incentivized have a strong 

475
00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:13,300
Community right now, because 
while if I fall in hard times, I

476
00:24:13,308 --> 00:24:15,800
can rely on this state 
intervention or that state 

477
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,700
intervention or maybe I can find
some other. 

478
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,700
Cheaper Market means to achieve 
something that doesn't require 

479
00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:24,700
me having to extend myself 
emotionally or socially with 

480
00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:29,300
other people, but then that's 
the thin that Even a thin way of

481
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:32,500
living superficial does not 
speak to your quarters. 

482
00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:34,300
Not revive you? 
Yes. 

483
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,100
Yes. 
To everything that you're saying

484
00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:41,100
and what comes to mind this 
conversation is it almost seems 

485
00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:43,900
like the trigger is moving is 
leaving, right? 

486
00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:47,500
So assuming of course, this is 
not the case for everybody. 

487
00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:50,200
But assuming you are born 
somewhere, you're raised 

488
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,100
somewhere with a family and then
you move. 

489
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,000
Like, for example, I moved from 
Miami to New York and I was 18 

490
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,000
for college and then I had to 
start A whole new community, 

491
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,600
they're in college. 
Luckily the soil is fertile and 

492
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,600
then and you heared like forced 
to repeat interactions with 

493
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:07,600
people. 
So you're able to build a 

494
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,700
community that but again, it's 
not as thick as my family home 

495
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,400
in Miami. 
Then I go to grad school and I'm

496
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,300
like oh that's even harder 
because there's like no social 

497
00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:21,300
there's no help from the 
University for like PhD students

498
00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:23,700
to hang out, which is like oh 
it's the other PhD students that

499
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:25,400
were in your lab but they've 
been working together for 3 

500
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,600
years. 
Then you have like an awkward 

501
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,800
one year of like working lab and
To be friends with people and 

502
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,600
then like, just moving to me 
seems to be a pattern that 

503
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,900
triggered my loss of thickness 
and Community or connection and 

504
00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:42,900
it takes a lot of intention and 
effort to rebuild that wherever 

505
00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:44,500
you go and you have to start 
from scratch. 

506
00:25:44,500 --> 00:25:47,100
Every time you move, I still 
don't feel like I've done a very

507
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:51,200
good job here in Seattle of, 
figuring it out, like a bit of a

508
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,900
Hermit getting me out to do. 
Basically, anything, is still 

509
00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:58,600
still an Endeavor, I need a lot 
of talking into and It's bad. 

510
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,300
It's like think about how hard 
it is to make friends as an 

511
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:04,900
adult, you really. 
And they're not even to make 

512
00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:07,800
them but to preserve those 
relationships because you can, 

513
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,500
you can just like stop or you 
can say like maybe turn down an 

514
00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:13,700
invitation two or three times. 
Maybe that's the last one. 

515
00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:17,000
You get until you don't do it. 
So, like you, you really gotta 

516
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,400
try. 
I don't feel like, I've been 

517
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,600
trying very hard and I don't 
know that it's been the best 

518
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,300
thing for me. 
Are you from here, Jeff? 

519
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,300
No, so, I'm a little bit of my 
personal history. 

520
00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:30,300
I've lived in California, Utah. 
So you see English a roster 

521
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:32,300
right? 
Yeah it'll yeah I mean Russ and 

522
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:34,700
I followed similar. 
Geographic changes. 

523
00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:37,600
Just in parallel unbeknownst 
just bouncing around. 

524
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:40,600
Wait we're like the rootless 
fungible. 

525
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,100
Disaffected liberal extreme. 
Yeah well right like it's the 

526
00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:47,900
you don't know what you have 
until you lose it and you know 

527
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,900
as someone who used to have such
strong community and also being 

528
00:26:51,900 --> 00:26:56,100
at bit of a Hermit myself I've 
and how much I'm invested in 

529
00:26:56,100 --> 00:26:59,900
interested in Reviving. 
Immunity and the loss of it. 

530
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,600
You know, it's hard you come 
home from a long day of work and

531
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,000
you're just like I just want to 
make dinner and crash. 

532
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,300
I've got to take my dog out for 
a walk and we're inundated with 

533
00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:12,000
content consumed on every other 
streaming device and just like 

534
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,800
the one we left behind. 
It's easier. 

535
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:18,100
Moratorium on new content, guys.
Like much content. 

536
00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:20,600
I got through months. 
I'm like, no, no more like oh 

537
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:21,800
that used this could show. 
Nope. 

538
00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:23,600
Not gonna do it. 
There's a new edgy. 

539
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,000
Serial drama. 
That's only seven seasons live 

540
00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:30,300
anti-heroes. 
Morally ambiguous, I'm still 

541
00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:31,700
finishing Game of Thrones, I'm 
out. 

542
00:27:31,700 --> 00:27:34,100
Oh my God. 
Okay, my friends, I've seen 

543
00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:36,400
every episode with time, you 
guys are part of the problem, 

544
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,100
right there? 
I am finding a problem but you 

545
00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:40,500
know what I've been doing 
recently? 

546
00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:43,200
I mean you mentioned Seattle as 
Seattle's a tough one. 

547
00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:47,000
Like Jesus it's hard to make 
friends as an adult just live in

548
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,500
Seattle. 
Like the Seattle. 

549
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:52,900
Freeze is a real thing but at 
least I can find more and more 

550
00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:55,400
people who also moved to Seattle
and are struggling with the 

551
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:56,900
fries. 
And so most of my friends are 

552
00:27:56,900 --> 00:27:59,800
not local to Seattle. 
Yeah, but it takes so much time.

553
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,000
It's what I've moved here, two 
years ago. 

554
00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:06,500
So December 4th. 
Oh wow, December 4th, was the 

555
00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:10,500
fifth of December and 2017. 
And I finally have friends were 

556
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:13,400
now I get, this is the level. 
This is the measure of success 

557
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,200
for communities. 
When you're going from failure. 

558
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,200
Can see, she's itching. 
I'm pinching myself. 

559
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:18,000
Yes. 
Yeah. 

560
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,700
There's space is when do you 
transition from like, oh, we 

561
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:25,600
have to like, hey, do you wanna 
go to brunch someday? 

562
00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:27,100
Like, let's do Sunday this time.
Okay. 

563
00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:29,000
And everything, scheduled Super 
thin. 

564
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,900
Then you go to thick like that 
Medium thickness where it's 

565
00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:33,800
like, hey I'm going home now. 
Do you want to come? 

566
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:34,500
Hang out? 
Yeah, sure. 

567
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:37,200
I'll be over. 
That is success. 

568
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,400
That's a sweet spot. 
Yeah. 

569
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,300
We should maybe maybe get it 
closer to the book again to 

570
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:46,400
because I think do we? 
I think that's a good, a good 

571
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:46,900
idea. 
All right. 

572
00:28:46,900 --> 00:28:49,600
I think that's terrific, dr. 
Patrick Deane heard this. 

573
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:50,900
He'd be like, what the heck, 
guys? 

574
00:28:50,900 --> 00:28:53,100
Like, like mention my book and 
barely. 

575
00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:54,900
Then you start talking about 
making friends in Seattle. 

576
00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:57,600
This is the reverse Advantage, 
podcast is our last one of the 

577
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,500
year. 
We've gotten to that, but we 

578
00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:02,600
sure will. 
Okay, so, maybe let's just let's

579
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,300
do our due diligence here and 
catch it up. 

580
00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:07,200
So, Francis fukuyama and a 
history. 

581
00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:08,700
He says, like, this is a famous 
thing. 

582
00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:11,800
Like, after the cold war, after 
the Berlin Wall came down, it 

583
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,300
was saying, like liberalism is 
where we'll all head over. 

584
00:29:14,300 --> 00:29:18,800
So I like broadly, we believe in
trade and private property and 

585
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,800
in markets and this is going to 
be the thing. 

586
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,300
It's not going to be fascism, 
which is another big alternative

587
00:29:23,300 --> 00:29:25,700
in the 20th century. 
That has been thoroughly, 

588
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:28,000
discredited less, so now but 
let's hope it stays 

589
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,000
Discrediting, his cross 
communism was very discredited 

590
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,100
after the Soviet Union 
collapsed, although it still has

591
00:29:35,100 --> 00:29:38,400
its admirers and in certain 
circles but liberalism was 

592
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:39,500
ascendant. 
We all sort of thought. 

593
00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:42,100
This is the best we can do. 
This is what we're going after. 

594
00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:45,600
And then now we're all staring 
into it and it seems like the 

595
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,600
name thinks that we've sort of 
hollowed it out. 

596
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,100
Like we spent hundreds of years 
building these communities, that

597
00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:54,600
were actually quite robust and 
then liberalism was so 

598
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,000
successful that it no longer 
required the communities that 

599
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:00,900
Liberalism possible just by 
having people grounded and 

600
00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:03,800
contextualize and a part of 
things, it removed the need for 

601
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,400
those. 
And now, all you have people who

602
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,600
do their primary identity is 
National politics or like, 

603
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,900
identifying, with a political 
party and like yelling at people

604
00:30:10,900 --> 00:30:13,900
online and there's nothing but 
that so like liberalism was so 

605
00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:16,500
successful that it might 
undermine itself because now 

606
00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:20,000
people have nothing about this 
and it isn't very good. 

607
00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:21,400
Yes. 
Is that your good job? 

608
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,400
Yes. 
And I would add essential to 

609
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:24,600
that. 
What he's talking about this 

610
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,200
hollowing out our, the more 
Civic and social Institutions 

611
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,100
that I think Robert Putnam 
highlights very well in his 

612
00:30:32,100 --> 00:30:34,500
book, bowling alone, which 
Denine talks about as well. 

613
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:36,800
It was first an article, I think
came out in the 80s, later 

614
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,100
became a book where he 
highlights although the numbers 

615
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,300
of those who bowl back then into
the past few Decades of now are 

616
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:47,200
still the same. 
The number of those who Bowl in 

617
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,900
Bowling leagues, have mostly 
disappeared. 

618
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,500
And that's uses as this imagery 
to show where isolated were 

619
00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:58,000
doing things not in 
associations. 

620
00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:01,500
And so part of why, that's a 
problem is because these 

621
00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:05,500
associations create norms and 
cultural expectations that 

622
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:07,400
temper. 
Some of the Extremes in our 

623
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:11,300
human nature and they're also 
part of what makes the 

624
00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:14,900
liberalism succeed. 
But Denine would say, what's 

625
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:16,800
this? 
Individualism that's baked into 

626
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,300
liberalism has slowly replaced 
those out that market logic and 

627
00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:24,700
large-scale state interventions 
have hollowed out those 

628
00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:27,900
intermediary spaces. 
Okay, and that's true. 

629
00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:31,300
That sounds may be small town or
all you guys are going to exist 

630
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:34,300
in large Urban environments to. 
But especially if you read 

631
00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:37,900
Wendell Berry so much of it is 
about this you know, bucolic 

632
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:40,100
life out in the countryside and 
these small towns, you get a 

633
00:31:40,108 --> 00:31:42,500
poor William. 
If you read those those novels 

634
00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:44,600
which are lovely. 
If you just want pure distilled,

635
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,100
Nostalgia just read any of those
part. 

636
00:31:47,100 --> 00:31:49,500
William as makes me nostalgic 
for something I've never 

637
00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:51,400
experienced. 
Its, they're beautiful. 

638
00:31:51,500 --> 00:31:54,600
I know you like them a lot to 
that I do, but we're just not 

639
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,300
going back. 
I think this Century we're going

640
00:31:56,300 --> 00:31:59,300
to Increasing urbanization. 
This is not even something 

641
00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:02,200
that's that disputed, as far as 
I know, everyone is moving to 

642
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,100
the city and they're doing it 
globally. 

643
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:07,100
And we're not going to have 
these sort of like small small 

644
00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:09,700
towns farming, Lifestyles 
anymore, those that are 

645
00:32:09,700 --> 00:32:12,600
increasingly mechanized and 
something that you don't have to

646
00:32:12,608 --> 00:32:15,000
deal with unless you really 
really want to or you're just 

647
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,200
born into it, you don't want to 
leave and even still. 

648
00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:18,500
It seems quite hard to stay 
there. 

649
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,800
So I read this book recently by 
Peter ends called how the Bible 

650
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,400
actually works. 
It was written about people. 

651
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,300
Oftentimes read the Bible. 
As a rule book, but this is 

652
00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:30,100
actually not a very good way to 
read the Bible. 

653
00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:33,200
There are passages right back to
back, even in Psalms because 

654
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,200
it's you supposed to read like 
holy books as a way of 

655
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,300
generating wisdom, not to, like,
just get an answer and be like, 

656
00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:41,200
oh, what is the Bible say about 
X? 

657
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,900
And you look it up, there it is.
That's the end of it, accept it 

658
00:32:43,900 --> 00:32:45,400
if you're in Leviticus. 
Exactly. 

659
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,200
Yeah. 
But even even sell their stuff 

660
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,500
in there, too. 
That he goes into, I thought it 

661
00:32:48,500 --> 00:32:51,800
was a really, really compelling 
book but so like a lot of the 

662
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:54,600
people who get really into 
Christianity and the Bible, 

663
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,100
they'll go back and say Were 
like reclaiming primitive, 

664
00:32:58,100 --> 00:33:00,700
Christianity and going back to 
basics and just looking like, 

665
00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:02,300
what exactly does it mean to be 
a Christian? 

666
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,100
I found my answer and done but 
he makes it a case in there that

667
00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:07,900
actually, like, you can never go
back. 

668
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,000
A lot of that was historically. 
Contextual, you're probably 

669
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,100
missing a lot of it. 
It's more about what can you 

670
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:14,000
take from that and move it 
forward? 

671
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,900
So, given that Wendell Berry and
Patrick mean, seemingly have 

672
00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:20,100
this aesthetic that is very 
much, small town, living rule 

673
00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:23,100
America, that might be the 
ideal, but we're going farther 

674
00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:26,400
and farther away from that. 
How do we learn from that? 

675
00:33:26,500 --> 00:33:29,400
Knowing that we probably aren't 
actually going to go back to it.

676
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:33,100
Yeah, that's a great question. 
I think it's a major tension, I 

677
00:33:33,100 --> 00:33:34,600
believe statistically, what's 
it? 

678
00:33:34,608 --> 00:33:38,000
Like two percent of Americans 
are actually Farmers nowadays, 

679
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:39,900
that may even be high. 
Maybe it's 1%. 

680
00:33:39,900 --> 00:33:42,000
I think it might be below that. 
Yeah. 

681
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,700
And so, you know and for the 
last century and a half more, 

682
00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:49,600
we've been consolidating Farms 
larger scale that's where we get

683
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,700
the big questions around, big 
Agriculture, and so most of us 

684
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:57,900
just don't want to be farmers. 
Those of us who didn't grow up 

685
00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:00,100
with it, read Wendell Berry or 
someone else and go. 

686
00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:03,400
Oh yeah, I think I want to just 
find my little parcel of land. 

687
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,500
It just Farm it and live this 
idyllic life and farming is 

688
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:11,699
really hard work. 
So I don't think there's a way 

689
00:34:11,699 --> 00:34:14,699
of going back. 
I like the idea of more and more

690
00:34:14,699 --> 00:34:20,000
people wanting to try and get 
back to Earth back to the soil 

691
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,199
as Wendell Berry will talk 
about. 

692
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:25,400
There's a berry, I think 
Institute in Kentucky, where 

693
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,900
they actually have free. 
Three scholarships where people 

694
00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:31,600
can learn to be farmers who are 
really wanting to revive a 

695
00:34:31,607 --> 00:34:34,699
little bit of this lifestyle. 
And I person, I'm personally not

696
00:34:34,699 --> 00:34:38,000
as invested or optimistic of 
loads of people just suddenly 

697
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,500
getting into farming, but I 
think it's really going back to 

698
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:43,000
that Community. 
Ethos, that isn't necessarily 

699
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,400
require everyone to be Farmers. 
But we have this real crisis of 

700
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,699
the rural urban divide, which I 
think is probably one of the 

701
00:34:49,707 --> 00:34:52,699
biggest divides that we can 
consider at least in the United 

702
00:34:52,699 --> 00:34:56,400
States, North America, where 
there's such big differences. 

703
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:01,200
And Lifestyles values, how rural
urban folks view each other or 

704
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,000
fail to talk to one another. 
And I think that's really big 

705
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,000
crisis is trying to cross that 
divide. 

706
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:10,100
So we've talked about the thing 
that is happening. 

707
00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:14,100
What are the consequences of it?
Like the why it failed? 

708
00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:17,200
What is feeling like what are 
the consequences of all the 

709
00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:20,900
loose relationships, the lack of
connection between rural and 

710
00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:23,200
urban people. 
But what are the consequences 

711
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,200
was failing? 
Is it just the state of today, 

712
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,700
or Why are we even having this 
conversation? 

713
00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:31,900
So I think a few of these things
and some of them are hard to pin

714
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,900
solely on liberalism and I'm not
sure Deneen would say, all these

715
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:40,300
are can be put on liberalism, 
but we never talk about this 

716
00:35:40,300 --> 00:35:43,600
alienation. 
We look at these Rising numbers 

717
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,700
of people who deal with 
loneliness, especially the more 

718
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:49,500
elderly or more vulnerable 
populations. 

719
00:35:49,500 --> 00:35:52,300
Who are just like, oh, you're 
not economically, fruitful, 

720
00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:56,100
you're not useful, you're sort 
of like discarded, but even 

721
00:35:56,100 --> 00:35:59,100
though, Or not, those of us who 
are chronicled economically 

722
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:01,700
productive. 
We still live, pretty solitary 

723
00:36:01,700 --> 00:36:04,500
lives, a lot of us and we deal 
with the depression and 

724
00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:07,400
loneliness that comes from that,
the lack of human flourishing 

725
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,800
that you know, we're facing. 
So you've got Steven Pinker who 

726
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,300
contrast this in his book, 
Enlightenment. 

727
00:36:12,300 --> 00:36:13,600
Now, where is talking about we 
live? 

728
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,700
In this most prosperous time. 
Most peaceful least violent time

729
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:21,900
in human history and largely a 
lot of those statistics metrics 

730
00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:25,200
are true but in materially 
speaking, there's a lot of 

731
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,000
unrest. 
There's a lot of Trust of one 

732
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,700
another, we don't trust our 
Democratic institutions. 

733
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,000
We don't know how to speak to 
one another politically or even 

734
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:34,800
emotionally. 
A lot of us, lack at the 

735
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,200
emotional intelligence to be 
able to communicate our 

736
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,600
alienation and loneliness to one
another. 

737
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,100
Some of us don't even know how 
to recognize it because we're so

738
00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:46,100
distracted, by all of our 
content that we consume are so 

739
00:36:46,100 --> 00:36:51,000
distracted by you name it. 
And so there are these some 

740
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,700
could say they're they're sort 
of spiritual deficiencies, 

741
00:36:54,700 --> 00:36:56,100
psychological emotional, you 
name it. 

742
00:36:56,100 --> 00:37:01,700
And Those are coming out in ways
of suicide, opiate crisis. 

743
00:37:01,700 --> 00:37:04,100
You can connect it to a lot of 
these which are hard to show. 

744
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:06,600
Causation English, probably show
some correlation, but those I 

745
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,900
think are some of the things 
that he's trying to point toward

746
00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:12,700
is as we've been so radically 
focus on liberating individuals 

747
00:37:12,700 --> 00:37:16,000
from everything we relate to. 
And we inherit, this is what 

748
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,000
we're seeing and maybe it is a 
pendulum that can swing back. 

749
00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:23,100
Denine thinks the nature of 
liberalism as an ideology. 

750
00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:25,700
This is its success. 
It has been achieved and we 

751
00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:29,200
can't trying to use liberal 
solutions to liberalism is 

752
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,200
trying to pour gasoline on a 
fire and maybe he's right. 

753
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,100
I am skeptical. 
I mean, I'm open to it but I 

754
00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:39,900
think maybe there are some 
quote-unquote liberal solutions 

755
00:37:39,900 --> 00:37:43,900
that we can use to like Nori, 
maybe, like, annoying. 

756
00:37:43,900 --> 00:37:46,200
Maybe, I don't know. 
I don't know if he would really 

757
00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:47,800
don't know. 
Maybe we should just talk about 

758
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,100
what is communitarianism have to
say about climate change and the

759
00:37:51,100 --> 00:37:54,900
environment I could see them 
thinking, something that was 

760
00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:58,500
more small-scale. 
I Us trying to commoditize 

761
00:37:58,500 --> 00:38:01,600
carbon removal. 
I feel like commoditize and 

762
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,700
communitarianism are just sort 
of anathema and the same 

763
00:38:04,700 --> 00:38:07,800
sentence to start. 
They could be I'm not as expert 

764
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,900
on communitarianism to know a 
lot of the conversations around 

765
00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:14,100
ecological crisis climate change
and those things but I think 

766
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:17,700
your intuition is probably right
there is similar to on the 

767
00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:22,200
criticisms further on the left 
of this commodification of 

768
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:27,800
Nature and soil and earth and 
air is, is a Problem and that 

769
00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:30,600
it's not just some material 
thing that can be controlled. 

770
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,500
There's people that are attached
to it and part of whether you 

771
00:38:34,508 --> 00:38:36,700
want to call it, a more of a 
Marxist critique or more of a 

772
00:38:36,707 --> 00:38:41,600
communitarian ethos, is that we 
lose something when we are so 

773
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,600
separated from where our food 
comes from. 

774
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,700
Yes, you know, Wendell Berry 
talks about how Urban centers 

775
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:51,500
are colonizers of the farm lands
that farm lands continue to be 

776
00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:55,500
left behind, they continue to 
become poor and they deal with 

777
00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:57,400
all these issues. 
We've About, but on a more 

778
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,200
severe scale as Urban centers 
such as Seattle, d.c. many of 

779
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,500
these cities that I've lived in 
and been able to benefit from 

780
00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:08,800
that, we are kind of these 
colonizers benefiting off of the

781
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,000
earth. 
And we don't know where most of 

782
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,800
our food comes from. 
This is where we get into these 

783
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,600
ethical questions. 
As to the people who are doing 

784
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,900
this farming, are they under 
good working? 

785
00:39:17,900 --> 00:39:22,700
Conditions, are they 
contributing to more sustainable

786
00:39:22,700 --> 00:39:24,900
farming. 
Practices were mostly just 

787
00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:28,200
looking at a price tag in a Suri
store, most of us. 

788
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:32,400
And I think that's problematic 
down the road, it is in some 

789
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,700
ways, but in others to how much 
extra time, do you want to 

790
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:40,000
devote to researching every 
product that you buy? 

791
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,100
It's an especially, like the 
economy. 

792
00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:45,600
So interconnected, it's just 
sort of like, everything 

793
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,200
produces everything else. 
I don't, I don't know if it's 

794
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,300
about researching every product 
that you buy. 

795
00:39:50,300 --> 00:39:53,500
Because no, not under that. 
Absolutely no. 

796
00:39:53,900 --> 00:39:56,200
But it's more. 
I think what I'm hearing from 

797
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,500
you. 
F is being connected to it. 

798
00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:02,500
So I don't know the tomatoes 
that I grew my garden versus the

799
00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:06,600
tomatoes that I buy me and I 
just love my salad so much 

800
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,100
better. 
It's like a whole experience. 

801
00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:11,200
Like I'm sitting there. 
I'm mindful, I'm savoring it. 

802
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,000
Like, there's just it but that 
is life, but more. 

803
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,400
So everything is just so easily 
and prepared and we pick it off 

804
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,100
a shelf and we pay for it and 
there were numbing ourselves 

805
00:40:21,100 --> 00:40:23,000
out, and then we're watching 
Netflix, and then we're doing 

806
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,400
this. 
And they were all why I'm busy, 

807
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,600
and then I gotta go to this. 
This website and I got to do 

808
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,400
this thing for work. 
And then I'm going to just get 

809
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,400
back on the bus. 
It's almost like, well, what's 

810
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,700
the point at all? 
If we're not stopping for a 

811
00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:37,400
second to think about the things
and I'm experienced. 

812
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,700
Oh yeah, I just I just spewed 
all that Devil's, Advocate at 

813
00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:44,100
Jeffrey here and I'm like, 
thoroughly alienated person and 

814
00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:55,100
also I could be happier how fast
paced everything is. 

815
00:40:55,100 --> 00:41:00,300
We do not have the time. 
I mean to look at so deeply into

816
00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:03,600
the supply chain as to, where 
everything comes from part of 

817
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,100
minimizing that is going local. 
I think that's part of the local

818
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:12,000
movement is, you can more easily
discern the sourcing of all this

819
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,800
food and where it's coming from.
So it's not realistic to say 

820
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,300
every single product that I 
consume. 

821
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,000
I know every single thing about 
every single Source, no one 

822
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,200
knows that's impossible but it's
trying to find the more tangible

823
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,500
areas of the That we consume and
trying to pinpoint, what are the

824
00:41:29,500 --> 00:41:31,200
things that are more? 
Ethically sourced things that 

825
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,600
are more green and more 
sustainable to things that we 

826
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,100
can connect to? 
Because with your point with the

827
00:41:36,100 --> 00:41:38,500
tomatoes, right? 
When you invest something into 

828
00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:41,100
it, you're seeing literally at 
the fruits of your Labor's, 

829
00:41:41,100 --> 00:41:42,600
right? 
We still use that phrase. 

830
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,900
Yeah. 
Because it matters. 

831
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,100
Yeah, I've been trying to, we 
all do is a lot of intellectual 

832
00:41:49,100 --> 00:41:52,200
labor over here, and I sort of 
wish that I had some outlet that

833
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,000
was a bit more Hands-On, are 
used to play music back in the 

834
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,600
day. 
And I just Fell off of that. 

835
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,700
But occasionally I would go in 
the car. 

836
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,500
Start fixing things working 
through hands, it was really 

837
00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:05,900
good. 
I feel like transforming things 

838
00:42:05,900 --> 00:42:09,100
in a tangible kind of way or 
interacting with the definitely 

839
00:42:09,100 --> 00:42:11,300
brings more pleasure than just 
buying it. 

840
00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:14,500
Although who doesn't love that 
sweet chemical Rush of buying 

841
00:42:14,500 --> 00:42:18,600
something off of Amazon and just
a couplet like the then last. 

842
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,200
Yeah, exactly. 
It's the pleasure of having 

843
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,000
accomplished a task, I set out 
to buy this thing. 

844
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,800
It has been done and I compare 
That to writing a book, not just

845
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,500
possible comparison. 
I think that the phrase that 

846
00:42:32,500 --> 00:42:35,900
popped out in my mind that you 
just said, was fast paced. 

847
00:42:36,100 --> 00:42:40,600
It's like, go, go, go go and 
stopping to experience the world

848
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,800
a little more and in community. 
So, this last was Thanksgiving 

849
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,600
weekend last weekend, and so we 
had three days off. 

850
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,500
I was like, I'm just going to 
work through cuz I'm going to 

851
00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:51,700
take a long break. 
I got to just work work, work, 

852
00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:54,400
work work. 
But then, because I was 

853
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,200
scrolling Instagram, I found 
that there was a sauce. 

854
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,400
The Congress which is like a 
salsa Festival, it's for three 

855
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,100
days. 
They do like all day workshops 

856
00:43:00,100 --> 00:43:03,600
from 10 a.m. and then their 
social dance at 10 p.m. until 

857
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,300
like 6:00 a.m. 
And I did that instead and it 

858
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:09,700
was literally the best thing and
made new connections and build 

859
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:12,400
the community. 
And then I just at the end of 

860
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,000
this three days of non-stop, 
like I slept four hours a night,

861
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,100
probably I was so exhausted. 
So now and I'm sitting there in 

862
00:43:18,100 --> 00:43:21,100
my couch, my weight. 
Why don't I ever do this? 

863
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,400
Why? 
Like because I'm constantly 

864
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:25,600
thinking, oh, I got to do this 
thing. 

865
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:26,600
I got to do that thing. 
Thing. 

866
00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:30,700
Yeah, it's it's a hard hard 
life, a lot of lot of stuff to 

867
00:43:30,700 --> 00:43:34,400
do but for the environment I 
guess this might apply for 

868
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:39,000
thinking as a communitarian 
might that we sort of treat 

869
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,500
nature or the environment as a 
means to an end or or as 

870
00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:44,800
something that's that's 
fungible. 

871
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,400
Like one of the ultimate 
critiques of of carbon markets 

872
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,400
that we've heard so many times 
is this like, you know, one 

873
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,500
Mangrove is not fungible with 
another. 

874
00:43:52,500 --> 00:43:54,700
So like if you just destroyed 
some wetlands and you bought 

875
00:43:54,700 --> 00:43:58,200
some mangrove Restoration 
credits, you're like, you still 

876
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,800
destroyed the original one. 
You can't just you can't just 

877
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,200
create on your head and it's 
like the communitarian 

878
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,300
critiquing like anything. 
That's placed based and we will 

879
00:44:05,300 --> 00:44:09,800
bury super famous for this being
attached to a very specific set 

880
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,800
of Hills and Dales and where he 
lives and it has had Generations

881
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,900
on that land. 
There's something that's just 

882
00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:19,900
not, you just can't swap it out 
for something else. 

883
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,300
I don't know what that's like, 
because I grew up moving right. 

884
00:44:22,300 --> 00:44:25,400
You're closer because you're, 
you're like, serious Miami. 

885
00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:28,100
Has ears Miami but I don't live 
there laughs. 

886
00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:30,700
Yeah, you're a traitor. 
A traitor to your people and I 

887
00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:32,200
fly. 
Okay. 

888
00:44:32,300 --> 00:44:36,300
Listeners guilty dirty laundry. 
I fly a lot to Miami but I'm 

889
00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:38,600
keeping track of my flight. 
So now that we have Nori, I can 

890
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,200
negate my admission Terry's. 
Love you environmentalist. 

891
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,300
Hate you hard to keep track of 
certain please. 

892
00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:48,700
Every Airlines love me. 
So I guess, what do we do with 

893
00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:49,800
that? 
So like one of the great parts 

894
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,600
of this book, I love, I think 
this is imagery. 

895
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,700
He contributes to Wendell Berry 
about, there's a sort of strip 

896
00:44:54,700 --> 00:44:58,900
mining process, so talented. 
Youth in various communities, 

897
00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:02,200
have your from like Akron or art
Temecula or wherever you're 

898
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,400
from. 
If you're really talented 

899
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,300
academically, you will leave 
those places. 

900
00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:09,400
You will get a scholarship to 
some school. 

901
00:45:09,700 --> 00:45:12,700
You aren't coming back you're 
going to move on from whatever 

902
00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:14,800
big city. 
You go to get some fancy job and

903
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:16,800
you'll come back and you'll be 
one of the people you'll see 

904
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,300
your townie friends and say, hey
guys, how's it going? 

905
00:45:19,300 --> 00:45:24,200
And some people go back. 
Some people do the onion had the

906
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,200
most Savage take on this I've 
ever seen. 

907
00:45:26,300 --> 00:45:29,800
Seen, it was like, big city 
comedian, who makes 30 grand a 

908
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,300
year like returns home for 
Thanksgiving. 

909
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,400
Sees, well-adjusted friends who 
have time to spend with their 

910
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,800
family? 
There's nothing like that. 

911
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,000
It's just like, with less. 
That's good. 

912
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,700
I will say statistically, I 
think most Americans I saw this 

913
00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:49,500
recently live within 40 miles of
their parents on average which 

914
00:45:49,500 --> 00:45:51,200
is kind of crazy when you think 
of that. 

915
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:52,800
So many people are so transient 
is right. 

916
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,200
Like there's a lot of us are 
living or moving to this big. 

917
00:45:56,300 --> 00:45:58,100
Urban centers were leaving 
behind. 

918
00:45:58,100 --> 00:46:00,800
That's another big concern of 
the brain drain where these 

919
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,800
communities that have literally 
been left behind. 

920
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:03,800
Some of them are farming 
communities. 

921
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,200
Others are just small towns that
people thought, well, there's 

922
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,500
nothing happening here for me. 
I want to go to the place where 

923
00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:14,300
the actions happening, and I 
think, one way forward can be, 

924
00:46:14,900 --> 00:46:18,900
is having more of us who we 
leave our communities, the ones 

925
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:21,400
who are there, maybe we're in a 
lot of opportunities, and coming

926
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,100
back and giving. 
So I think of in mythology and 

927
00:46:25,100 --> 00:46:28,100
lots of great stories, There's 
the monomyth or the hero's 

928
00:46:28,100 --> 00:46:31,400
journey, where you have this 
individual as an individual, and

929
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,700
maybe in the liberal sense, who 
they are pursuing their self 

930
00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:37,300
chosen Mission, and they feel 
called to something, and they go

931
00:46:37,300 --> 00:46:39,800
onto it, individually on their 
own, they take on challenges, 

932
00:46:40,100 --> 00:46:43,200
they go through these, and they 
come out on the other side with 

933
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,700
this great gift, that they've 
achieved, that they didn't know 

934
00:46:45,700 --> 00:46:49,200
they needed, but the end of the 
story, it doesn't go there. 

935
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:50,800
It continues. 
They come back to their 

936
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,700
community and it's a gift for 
them and their community, and 

937
00:46:53,700 --> 00:46:56,100
that's something a lot of us 
aren't completing. 

938
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,400
That hero's journey. 
We're lost. 

939
00:46:58,400 --> 00:46:59,900
Right? 
So it doesn't necessarily mean. 

940
00:46:59,900 --> 00:47:02,200
We have to all move back to our 
hometowns. 

941
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:04,200
Well, why are we lost? 
Is it? 

942
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,200
And it might be that were called
to go home. 

943
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,100
We've done this thing, we've 
accomplished the journey, the 

944
00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:13,100
road home is calling us and we 
feel pulled their but there's 

945
00:47:13,100 --> 00:47:17,600
Instagram and so God knows. 
If you move back home then 

946
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,500
you're a failure and you're just
going the opposite direction and

947
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:23,700
this is constant need to achieve
and Achieve and level up level 

948
00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:25,600
up. 
It's just you just tell those 

949
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,000
people be like Here. 
Read this. 

950
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,100
Joseph Campbell, I wasn't 
surprised you brought that up 

951
00:47:31,100 --> 00:47:33,300
Chef, it was only a matter of 
time. 

952
00:47:33,300 --> 00:47:35,300
Anyone who knows me? 
But I would like to say, I think

953
00:47:35,300 --> 00:47:37,600
a solution for some of these 
communities have been left 

954
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:43,800
behind is remote work, which not
every industry is able to do 

955
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,800
that. 
But more and more are allowing I

956
00:47:45,808 --> 00:47:47,400
think encouraging more remote 
work. 

957
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,100
Including the housing crisis 
that a lot of us are facing is 

958
00:47:50,100 --> 00:47:52,900
being able to move to smaller 
communities, where it is more 

959
00:47:52,900 --> 00:47:55,700
affordable, especially for 
Millennials most Millennials 

960
00:47:55,700 --> 00:47:57,800
can't afford. 
Holmes moved to a community 

961
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,400
where not only can you afford to
live there but you can bring 

962
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,600
your skill set and knowledge and
the talents you've been gifted 

963
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,100
with to bless whatever those 
communities are. 

964
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:11,600
Maybe it's your own Community or
maybe it's one that you're being

965
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,700
adopted into but you're saying, 
hey this is my place. 

966
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,600
I see some needs that I can meet
for other people and I'm going 

967
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,500
to allow people to make demands 
on me and vice versa and I'm 

968
00:48:22,500 --> 00:48:27,600
going to Really dig in put some 
Roots here, but even that like 

969
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,700
remote work is still 
confrontational. 

970
00:48:30,500 --> 00:48:33,300
I don't know. 
Like, we're split at Nori to on 

971
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:35,500
the opinion of remote work and 
we're all Millennials. 

972
00:48:36,100 --> 00:48:39,200
There's a benefit to it and 
there's just a downside to like,

973
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,800
the human interaction, human 
connection. 

974
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,000
Do I want to be working at my 
desk, in My Den all day long and

975
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,600
feel isolated from my 
co-workers, don't really know 

976
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,200
what's going on. 
So yeah, it is a solution but 

977
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,700
and maybe that middle ground, 
Around is because I where I 

978
00:48:55,700 --> 00:49:01,200
work, I'll say I work with a 
much more aged population, my 

979
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,300
co-workers, and their bit more 
resistant, to remote work. 

980
00:49:04,300 --> 00:49:09,000
But I think remote work, that's,
you know, maybe you're within 50

981
00:49:09,300 --> 00:49:12,300
60 miles of your actual office 
in one of these smaller 

982
00:49:12,300 --> 00:49:16,100
communities, and you're able to 
come in once or twice a week 

983
00:49:16,300 --> 00:49:18,500
where it's a little bit more 
bearable because right, like 

984
00:49:18,500 --> 00:49:22,300
your workplace is a place and 
that's part of what gets lost 

985
00:49:22,300 --> 00:49:26,200
when everyone's remote you don't
have a Shared sense of geography

986
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,400
or that community of psychology 
where you see each other face to

987
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:34,700
face the Arbitrage is so great 
though, if you can do it, where 

988
00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:38,300
I've had friends, who they'll be
working at a company in DC or 

989
00:49:38,300 --> 00:49:42,500
New York and they'll be living 
someplace that you like living 

990
00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:45,700
in Phoenix or living in summer. 
One of the Rust Belt cities and 

991
00:49:45,700 --> 00:49:47,600
they're like, wow, I just bought
a house. 

992
00:49:51,500 --> 00:49:54,500
So if you're able to pull that 
off, its Great. 

993
00:49:54,500 --> 00:49:58,100
But I also do I've done a lot of
remote working and I used to 

994
00:49:58,100 --> 00:50:02,200
think telecommuting is the 
future every in the future, 

995
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:06,300
everyone's going to do this and 
I was like I still feel very 

996
00:50:06,300 --> 00:50:08,700
disconnected calling into stuff 
like that. 

997
00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:10,400
So much better just being in the
room. 

998
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,300
Even if I'm just like at home 
versus being in the office, it 

999
00:50:13,300 --> 00:50:14,200
depends what you're doing 
though. 

1000
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,900
To like some of the jobs over to
be like I don't need to be here.

1001
00:50:17,300 --> 00:50:18,900
We all know I don't need to be 
here. 

1002
00:50:19,300 --> 00:50:22,100
Just let me go home but does it 
have to be all or nothing? 

1003
00:50:22,500 --> 00:50:25,200
It's like, oh, you either live. 
A place and you work there and 

1004
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,100
your whole life is in that 
Community or you do. 

1005
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,100
And or you do remote work, you 
live somewhere else. 

1006
00:50:31,300 --> 00:50:34,200
But what about in between, it's 
like, I'm starting to get the 

1007
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:38,500
idea of like, well, what if I 
spent just a good portion of my 

1008
00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:39,900
time? 
I had multiple homes. 

1009
00:50:40,100 --> 00:50:43,700
I mean, like, what? 
If I just spent a good portion 

1010
00:50:43,700 --> 00:50:46,400
of my time in Miami's bonding 
with my nephew, my God, my 

1011
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,500
listeners must hate me. 
Like, I literally only talk 

1012
00:50:48,500 --> 00:50:52,400
about Noah, my nephew on this 
podcast, and then I come to the 

1013
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,600
bingo card. 
Yes, but That on the next video 

1014
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,700
card. 
My nephew Noah love, you going 

1015
00:50:57,700 --> 00:51:01,700
home to Miami but then also 
coming often to Seattle but then

1016
00:51:01,700 --> 00:51:04,900
also being on the road so that I
can meet with potential clients 

1017
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:09,700
meet with business partners, but
having some type of cycle where 

1018
00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:13,100
you are able to be in one 
Community also into an another. 

1019
00:51:13,100 --> 00:51:14,800
Because do you really need me 
here every day? 

1020
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,500
Like I don't know. 
I think that there's a like 

1021
00:51:17,500 --> 00:51:19,800
everything at a point of 
diminishing returns. 

1022
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,500
I think I've talked to you about
this event to Jeffrey. 

1023
00:51:24,500 --> 00:51:28,200
I very good. 
I had a friend who wanted to do 

1024
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,300
some travel blogging as a career
and make this jump into 

1025
00:51:31,300 --> 00:51:33,500
something that he could travel 
with. 

1026
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,700
And I've traveled a lot. 
I used to work like from my 

1027
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:39,700
computer and bounced around all 
over the world and it was a 

1028
00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:43,000
great experience. 
But a lot of the time I was 

1029
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,500
like, I can't wait to get back 
into a routine and I can't wait 

1030
00:51:45,500 --> 00:51:49,400
to like build a long-term 
connection to places and people 

1031
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,500
and whatever as opposed. 
Endless variety and stimulation.

1032
00:51:54,100 --> 00:51:56,600
I think, I don't know what it 
is. 

1033
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,300
That has so denigrated the 
stability of yet. 

1034
00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:03,100
Living close to your parents, 
being able to have that sort of 

1035
00:52:03,100 --> 00:52:06,500
like grandparents helping you 
with the kids, seeing them often

1036
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,900
actually building those 
relationships now that you're an

1037
00:52:08,900 --> 00:52:11,800
adult and you can transform them
from whatever they were when you

1038
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,000
were a kid and sort of like 
because you can't you can't 

1039
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,300
really grow past that as an 
adult where you don't see your 

1040
00:52:16,300 --> 00:52:18,900
parents. 
Like it's you sort of need like 

1041
00:52:18,900 --> 00:52:22,800
repeated exposure to that. 
And I think people have 

1042
00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:26,500
overvalue travel and they've 
undervalued, the sort of place 

1043
00:52:26,500 --> 00:52:30,300
based that being said, one more 
thing real quick as I'd like to 

1044
00:52:30,300 --> 00:52:32,700
make it heretical view but 
please fuck it. 

1045
00:52:32,700 --> 00:52:33,600
I want it. 
I want it. 

1046
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,200
I want this heresy to that being
said, I also I also like the 

1047
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,900
freedom that liberalism has 
given me to choose these things 

1048
00:52:40,900 --> 00:52:42,500
and I'll sign it right now. 
We're talking about this in 

1049
00:52:42,500 --> 00:52:45,100
discussing the book. 
Before you got here is I like 

1050
00:52:45,100 --> 00:52:48,000
that I have the choice, whether 
to be a part of this community 

1051
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,100
moved back home so to speak. 
Or to live in the big city, and 

1052
00:52:52,100 --> 00:52:55,700
I'm not like bound to the land, 
like, a surf where I can't leave

1053
00:52:55,700 --> 00:52:58,100
and go chase after better 
opportunities, because I have 

1054
00:52:58,100 --> 00:53:01,100
some sort of abstract Community 
benefit of my staying. 

1055
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,200
Well, give me your hair is see 
how my hair is C. 

1056
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,300
So I would like to kind of trash
on travel or maybe just 

1057
00:53:07,300 --> 00:53:12,800
Wanderlust do dunk on it. 
I mean, I don't know what noise 

1058
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:18,200
that was. 
That was a dog, especially for 

1059
00:53:18,500 --> 00:53:20,000
partially. 
It's a generational thing, some 

1060
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,900
of its in age, Thing. 
But there's this romanticization

1061
00:53:22,900 --> 00:53:25,000
of seeing the world and travel 
distance. 

1062
00:53:25,300 --> 00:53:28,400
Travel is a great thing for 
Expanding Horizons and being 

1063
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:32,000
able to do a lot of stuff. 
Obviously, there's the carbon 

1064
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:33,700
footprint concerns with so much 
travel that. 

1065
00:53:33,700 --> 00:53:37,200
So many of us do, that's part of
the communitarian focus on 

1066
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,300
going. 
Local, is minimizing a lot of 

1067
00:53:39,308 --> 00:53:42,800
that footprint as well. 
But part of this thing, I have 

1068
00:53:43,500 --> 00:53:45,900
against travel is more of Ken's 
waterless or psycho. 

1069
00:53:46,100 --> 00:53:47,800
I need to go find myself. 
I need to go Eat. 

1070
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,300
Pray, Love somewhere, right? 
Where it's just like the Reality

1071
00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:54,400
is that wherever you go? 
Most of your problems are going 

1072
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,400
to go there with you, right? 
So it's if you're just trying to

1073
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,800
go wander around my friends who 
live in Vans would be upset with

1074
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,200
me but, you know, just living in
a van wandering, around the 

1075
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,300
country, trying to solve your 
problems. 

1076
00:54:05,700 --> 00:54:08,700
May not be the best way to go 
that you have to face those 

1077
00:54:08,700 --> 00:54:11,000
wherever you're at. 
And so I think part of the 

1078
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,300
importance or the benefit of 
local is minimizing the, those 

1079
00:54:14,500 --> 00:54:17,600
carbon footprint. 
It's also about not having an 

1080
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,900
outlet to try and Escape your 
problems that you really have to

1081
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:21,800
face them. 
Now, Now there are some very 

1082
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,100
real threats in your physical 
space that do require you to 

1083
00:54:25,100 --> 00:54:26,200
leave. 
Maybe you do have an abusive 

1084
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,300
relationship or an abusive 
Community, etc, etc. 

1085
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:33,000
That's a different circumstance.
It's funny that you say this and

1086
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,100
you make like this, Eat Pray 
Love reference and like going 

1087
00:54:36,100 --> 00:54:39,200
off and kind of dumping on this 
wander less. 

1088
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,100
I totally agree. 
And I say it's funny because 

1089
00:54:41,100 --> 00:54:46,300
when this airs, I will be like, 
meditating in a temple and like,

1090
00:54:46,300 --> 00:54:49,000
Chiang Mai Thailand and just 
trying to unplug. 

1091
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:53,200
So I agree with you. 
Wholeheartedly and I know I 

1092
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:54,800
might sound like I'm 
contradicting myself. 

1093
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,000
But I've been I plan this be 
like right right at the end of 

1094
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,000
techstars at the end of October 
going through a lot of stuff, 

1095
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,700
lost your family member. 
So you know when Ross was 

1096
00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:07,700
talking about being with your 
parents and appreciating that 

1097
00:55:07,700 --> 00:55:11,300
I'm like yeah you just don't 
know when that's going to end. 

1098
00:55:11,300 --> 00:55:14,500
So enjoy it as much as you can. 
And anyways, it decided to do 

1099
00:55:14,500 --> 00:55:19,600
this trip stress of nori and I'm
constantly reminding myself, you

1100
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,300
know, girl like It's not like 
the trip is going to like solve 

1101
00:55:23,300 --> 00:55:26,100
your problem. 
So I've been meditating every 

1102
00:55:26,100 --> 00:55:28,800
day in the morning and the 
evening, since I decided to take

1103
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,600
the trip in preparation for X, 
I'm like, yeah, that might allow

1104
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:33,800
me to heightened get a little 
bit more quiet. 

1105
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:35,900
No more. 
Slack messages and we're emails,

1106
00:55:35,900 --> 00:55:39,600
no more text and it would just 
give me a sense of just a space 

1107
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:41,000
and maybe a little bit of 
variety. 

1108
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,400
So I could feel refreshed when I
come back but the journey is 

1109
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,800
just going to continue. 
It's just like a little blip 

1110
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,100
because all of all of the things
that you're working through our 

1111
00:55:50,100 --> 00:55:53,100
like they're just Come with me 
and so I completely agree with 

1112
00:55:53,100 --> 00:55:55,200
you and it's still like a weird 
balance of. 

1113
00:55:55,500 --> 00:55:57,200
Yeah. 
Can I give myself a moment to 

1114
00:55:57,207 --> 00:55:59,100
just be really, really still and
meditate. 

1115
00:55:59,100 --> 00:56:01,100
And I have to worry about any 
other things because it's really

1116
00:56:01,100 --> 00:56:03,600
hard to do that, too. 
I know that if I were to say, 

1117
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,000
okay, well, I'm going to be off 
the grid in Seattle. 

1118
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:10,600
No, I would blow up my computer.
I would do, I would come stop by

1119
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,700
the Nori office, like I would 
just find all those little 

1120
00:56:13,700 --> 00:56:15,900
distractions. 
So to completely pull away to 

1121
00:56:15,900 --> 00:56:19,600
give yourself some space to is 
just like the, the alternative 

1122
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,300
view of that. 
So, I'ma Agreeing with you but 

1123
00:56:21,300 --> 00:56:24,400
also highlighting some 
complications of trying to be 

1124
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,600
local. 
You don't really get to unplug 

1125
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,300
if that's something that you 
want to do every once in a blue 

1126
00:56:29,300 --> 00:56:32,400
moon. 
Well, we should start thinking 

1127
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,600
about how to end this thing. 
And I think we should do a 

1128
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,200
little more on the book, what I 
would like to cover, which I, I 

1129
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,000
hope or think would be really 
beneficial to listeners. 

1130
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,300
Would be really trying to 
connect it into the question 

1131
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:48,700
around solutions to reversing 
climate changes. 

1132
00:56:48,700 --> 00:56:51,900
Do we focus on what I think. 
So for example, there's an essay

1133
00:56:51,900 --> 00:56:55,600
that was actually submitted and 
published with erratic asst by 

1134
00:56:55,900 --> 00:56:58,700
one of my friends, Charlie dies.
When the green New Deal came 

1135
00:56:58,700 --> 00:57:00,800
out, this is sort of his 
response to his. 

1136
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,100
We don't need a green. 
You do, we need thousands of 

1137
00:57:03,100 --> 00:57:05,900
them and larger. 
What he's trying to say is look,

1138
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:11,600
when we have this very top-down 
approach to Solutions. 

1139
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,800
Often times, they don't work one
because they lack the motivation

1140
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,500
that comes from local Affinity, 
but they also lack the local 

1141
00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:19,800
knowledge, that small 
communities have. 

1142
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,600
So when you have something that 
comes from say Washington DC or 

1143
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,100
even something in Seattle, that 
maybe comes from Olympia as a 

1144
00:57:26,100 --> 00:57:29,300
Washington state level. 
There are norms, there are even 

1145
00:57:29,300 --> 00:57:34,300
like legal nuances, that aren't 
known on these Federal levels. 

1146
00:57:34,300 --> 00:57:36,100
And so when you try and bring 
this top down, here's what 

1147
00:57:36,100 --> 00:57:38,700
everyone has to adopt. 
And endorse end up having a lot 

1148
00:57:38,700 --> 00:57:40,500
of negative unintended 
consequences. 

1149
00:57:40,500 --> 00:57:43,400
And so, part of the thrust of 
this argument, I think can be a 

1150
00:57:43,408 --> 00:57:49,200
very communitarian argument is 
that our approach to reversing 

1151
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,300
climate change. 
Needs to be thousands of 

1152
00:57:52,300 --> 00:57:55,800
communities working together. 
As tangible actual communities 

1153
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,800
who know their Norms their 
practices. 

1154
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,500
That are their nature that 
surrounds them and that they can

1155
00:58:02,500 --> 00:58:04,900
come up with Solutions. 
I think of one of your former 

1156
00:58:04,900 --> 00:58:08,500
podcast, guess who I think a 
little bit more radical 

1157
00:58:08,500 --> 00:58:11,300
solution. 
But was it the black sheep who 

1158
00:58:11,300 --> 00:58:13,800
were in were they Costa Rica? 
Yeah, that's right. 

1159
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:16,500
And how they take very much this
community. 

1160
00:58:16,700 --> 00:58:19,200
At least in some way could be 
interpreted as a communitarian 

1161
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:22,000
approach where they're trying to
keep Keep, you know, a very 

1162
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:27,500
community-focused solution to 
food sourcing, you know, using 

1163
00:58:27,500 --> 00:58:29,300
permaculture, which is 
fantastic. 

1164
00:58:29,300 --> 00:58:31,700
And phenomenal thing. 
I love to think about and 

1165
00:58:31,700 --> 00:58:34,000
they're really focused on what 
they can do in this. 

1166
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,400
More holistic approach rather 
than waiting for some federal 

1167
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,900
mandate to make the magic happen
or waiting for large scale. 

1168
00:58:41,900 --> 00:58:43,500
Corporations to make the magic 
happen. 

1169
00:58:43,500 --> 00:58:46,300
I think all of them can be a 
solution and this is a praise. 

1170
00:58:46,300 --> 00:58:49,800
I want to give that I actually 
wanted to give to you all for 

1171
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,900
your podcast. 
I think with the the many, many 

1172
00:58:53,900 --> 00:58:56,700
perspectives from people that 
you have on the podcast, there's

1173
00:58:57,300 --> 00:59:01,400
tons of people doing a lot of 
different solutions that as a 

1174
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,700
whole, all these different 
unique efforts can come together

1175
00:59:04,700 --> 00:59:08,600
and hopefully address this 
crisis that touches every aspect

1176
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,500
of our lives. 
And rather than having one 

1177
00:59:11,500 --> 00:59:15,500
top-down solution, it's 
thousands of communities working

1178
00:59:15,500 --> 00:59:17,600
together because you don't have 
a community unless you're 

1179
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,000
building something together and 
climate change. 

1180
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:25,000
Aw, Offers a chance for us to 
unify as communities to combat. 

1181
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,400
Something drop the mic. 
That was good. 

1182
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,100
That was necessary to get that 
in there. 

1183
00:59:30,700 --> 00:59:33,000
So if you're listening you're 
saying why is this podcast 

1184
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,600
called reversing climate change?
Are they going to get to it? 

1185
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,900
Shut your pie hole right now. 
That's it, Jeffrey, what do you 

1186
00:59:39,900 --> 00:59:43,700
think is the best criticism of 
communitarianism that, you know 

1187
00:59:43,700 --> 00:59:45,400
of? 
I don't think it like we painted

1188
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:50,900
a picture that was a bit Rosie. 
I think but it isn't a View and 

1189
00:59:50,908 --> 00:59:53,300
there's plenty of room to 
challenge basically everything 

1190
00:59:53,300 --> 00:59:54,900
we talked about. 
Yeah. 

1191
00:59:54,900 --> 00:59:57,100
So I'm going to list off a few 
names. 

1192
00:59:57,100 --> 01:00:00,600
I think communitarianism, the 
nature of it is such that it 

1193
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,400
doesn't fit easily into any 
other political camp and so it 

1194
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,400
has enemies and a lot of 
directions where, for example, 

1195
01:00:07,500 --> 01:00:10,800
some of the points we brought up
where maybe communitarians is 

1196
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:15,200
too limiting that what if you're
in a community that is so 

1197
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:19,000
opposed to some aspect of your 
individual identity, that's very

1198
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:22,200
threatening. 
Maybe you Identify in a 

1199
01:00:22,207 --> 01:00:25,600
non-binary way, with gender or 
sexual orientation and your 

1200
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,500
community is absolutely against 
that in to the point of 

1201
01:00:29,500 --> 01:00:31,300
threatening your physical 
safety, right? 

1202
01:00:31,300 --> 01:00:33,900
That's an issue that 
communitarians maybe have to 

1203
01:00:33,900 --> 01:00:36,200
struggle with because you can't 
guarantee that that's part of 

1204
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:40,300
the challenge with liberalism is
trying to offer a universal 

1205
01:00:40,300 --> 01:00:44,700
ethos that preserves, the 
individual that pushes back 

1206
01:00:44,700 --> 01:00:46,900
against the particulars of 
different communities. 

1207
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,500
And so there's plenty of critics
for that. 

1208
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,500
I'm sorry. 
I Do not see why the two are in 

1209
01:00:53,500 --> 01:00:56,700
Conflict liberalism versus 
Community terrorism because 

1210
01:00:57,300 --> 01:00:59,100
liberalism could be a pathway to
that. 

1211
01:00:59,100 --> 01:01:02,700
Again, you can break through the
expected social contract of what

1212
01:01:02,700 --> 01:01:05,800
your sexuality is, find your new
community. 

1213
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:09,100
But the problem is again, like I
think we're just too far out 

1214
01:01:09,100 --> 01:01:11,600
that were free and we're like 
going wild like when you first 

1215
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,500
get to like drink alcohol, but 
now it's like okay, find those 

1216
01:01:15,500 --> 01:01:18,300
communities be able to break 
free little bit and reconnect 

1217
01:01:18,300 --> 01:01:21,800
and value really intentionally 
Building community and 

1218
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:25,000
connections because if we just 
start off and say, okay 

1219
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,000
liberalism was not working for 
us, it doesn't allow us to do 

1220
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:30,300
this build communities. 
Then what happens is, you're 

1221
01:01:30,300 --> 01:01:33,400
bound and we're full circle. 
I think me turns don't like that

1222
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,400
because it's elective. 
It's like something that you can

1223
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,500
do if you want to but you can 
get by without it and the 

1224
01:01:39,508 --> 01:01:43,200
consequences of us, not choosing
that are bad and people are not 

1225
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:46,000
choosing it, some critics I 
would save communitarianism. 

1226
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,700
One particular would be 
effective, altruism Peter 

1227
01:01:49,700 --> 01:01:53,500
singers and Big advocate of 
effective altruism, which the 

1228
01:01:53,500 --> 01:01:58,700
centerpiece of that argument is 
that when it comes to charity, 

1229
01:01:58,900 --> 01:02:03,500
and what is the ethical thing to
do that, you need to find who is

1230
01:02:03,500 --> 01:02:06,100
the person that is in greatest 
need of help. 

1231
01:02:06,500 --> 01:02:10,600
And that's where your charitable
focus should go to. 

1232
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:14,800
So shouldn't go to your family, 
or your local community, even 

1233
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:17,400
though for most of us that's 
natural and reasonable to think.

1234
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:21,600
Oh, if there's a stranger versus
my Child and both of them are 

1235
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,500
starving. 
Who do I help? 

1236
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,900
And maybe committee chairman say
well you help your child. 

1237
01:02:26,900 --> 01:02:28,700
That's your child. 
They have a natural obligation 

1238
01:02:28,700 --> 01:02:32,900
to you vice versa whereas maybe 
an effective altruist would say 

1239
01:02:32,900 --> 01:02:35,600
well who's in Greater need. 
Well, if your child ate 

1240
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:39,000
yesterday or maybe they ate two 
days ago, but the stranger down,

1241
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,500
the road hasn't eaten for a 
week, you give that food to that

1242
01:02:41,500 --> 01:02:43,900
stranger, which it can be 
interns going to have qualms 

1243
01:02:43,900 --> 01:02:45,900
with. 
But it's sort of this question 

1244
01:02:45,900 --> 01:02:49,500
of, in our communities, in 
wealthy Seattle, do we help our 

1245
01:02:49,500 --> 01:02:53,500
neighbors or do we? 
Provide some support to the most

1246
01:02:53,500 --> 01:02:55,700
impoverished corner of the 
earth. 

1247
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:59,100
I think those are those are fair
criticisms to. 

1248
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,100
I think another prison that 
could be made is that you just 

1249
01:03:02,100 --> 01:03:04,700
don't get scale with a lot of 
these small things. 

1250
01:03:04,700 --> 01:03:06,900
Like with the problems were 
facing, we actually need scale 

1251
01:03:06,900 --> 01:03:10,400
and that scale either comes from
the market or states. 

1252
01:03:10,500 --> 01:03:12,500
And that's what we need right 
now. 

1253
01:03:12,500 --> 01:03:15,800
We don't have time to Tinker 
around with little things on 

1254
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:17,600
farms. 
We need the gears of Industry 

1255
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,700
moving right now, so people can 
make those claims and Fight 

1256
01:03:20,700 --> 01:03:23,100
about them. 
But whatever I think it's a cool

1257
01:03:23,100 --> 01:03:26,400
perspective. 
I think it's worthy of people 

1258
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:28,600
giving it a chance. 
Reason, Wendell Berry go hang 

1259
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,900
out in Port William if you want.
This book was very interesting 

1260
01:03:31,900 --> 01:03:35,100
to why liberalism failed by 
Patrick Janine. 

1261
01:03:35,500 --> 01:03:37,300
I thought it was good. 
I think it's a very good 

1262
01:03:37,300 --> 01:03:39,400
introduction to. 
There's another concept that we 

1263
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:42,700
didn't get in get into called 
Republican virtue, or 

1264
01:03:42,700 --> 01:03:46,300
communitarian thought, it's 
like, conservatives love to say 

1265
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:51,300
it's liberty, not license. 
So I've heard that Like if you 

1266
01:03:51,300 --> 01:03:55,600
can't be free to choose to be 
some sort of rabble-rousing, 

1267
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,600
some dab will do ya. 
You're supposed to choose. 

1268
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:01,200
Good things if you're going to 
if you're going to govern 

1269
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:03,900
yourself and live in a 
self-governing society, you got 

1270
01:04:03,900 --> 01:04:07,600
to be a well-ordered person. 
You can't just be a drunk 

1271
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:09,200
running around doing ever you 
want. 

1272
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:11,500
So like what does freedom mean? 
If you can't choose us. 

1273
01:04:11,500 --> 01:04:13,900
Anyways, this is the book is a 
very good introduction to those.

1274
01:04:13,900 --> 01:04:16,200
If it's new to you at all, I 
hope you enjoyed it. 

1275
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:18,200
We went along, we went along but
I think I think we covered some 

1276
01:04:18,207 --> 01:04:20,800
good ground there. 
Got silly Geoffrey if I want to 

1277
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:24,200
follow your work if they like 
you and want to know what's 

1278
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:26,800
going on in those mind, grapes 
over there. 

1279
01:04:26,900 --> 01:04:29,700
How might they do so? 
Well, first of all, I can check 

1280
01:04:29,700 --> 01:04:32,600
out erratic asst. 
Just type in erratic Ascend into

1281
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:35,600
any search engine, it will pull 
up on top nice. 

1282
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:37,500
Good SEO. 
Put them in the show notes. 

1283
01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:43,500
Grr, 80 icus, correct, cool. 
Anything else no start there. 

1284
01:04:43,500 --> 01:04:45,100
I'm on Twitter. 
You can find me. 

1285
01:04:45,100 --> 01:04:48,300
Jeffrey, Howard as well, but all
goes back to radek asst. 

1286
01:04:48,700 --> 01:04:52,200
Nice. 
I just want to wrap up here with

1287
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:55,700
our final show for the year, for
the two years. 

1288
01:04:56,300 --> 01:04:58,800
Oh my God! 
You're right, because it is a 

1289
01:04:58,808 --> 01:05:00,800
continuous season. 
Is that what we're going to do? 

1290
01:05:01,100 --> 01:05:03,900
This is the end of the first 
season and then we're going to 

1291
01:05:03,908 --> 01:05:08,600
open a new one, A two-year long 
season speaking of continuous 

1292
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,500
content, it's more work than it 
looks like folks. 

1293
01:05:11,700 --> 01:05:15,200
Yeah and you can please send 
rasa lovely email. 

1294
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:18,100
Tell him how much you appreciate
the podcast? 

1295
01:05:18,300 --> 01:05:20,900
Ross puts a lot, a lot of I 
mean, it's like the driver 

1296
01:05:20,900 --> 01:05:23,500
behind this podcast, so happy 
New Year Ross. 

1297
01:05:23,500 --> 01:05:27,300
Thank you so much for having us 
on this podcast and doing this 

1298
01:05:27,300 --> 01:05:30,400
all the time. 
And also, I just wanted to say 

1299
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:34,100
thank you to our listeners. 
We so appreciate hearing from 

1300
01:05:34,100 --> 01:05:38,400
you on a lot of you send emails 
to us, they're lovely to read. 

1301
01:05:38,500 --> 01:05:41,900
We hope you have a beautiful 
holiday, a blessed new year. 

1302
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:47,300
And don't forget to keep tuning 
in and watch out for season 2. 

1303
01:05:47,900 --> 01:05:49,700
Yeah, we have some exciting 
things planned. 

1304
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:52,100
And for it. 
Thanks for the kind words. 

1305
01:05:52,100 --> 01:05:55,000
Yeah you can reach us at podcast
and worry.com or hello. 

1306
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,700
It nor e.com you want to rate 
and review Us in iTunes. 

1307
01:05:58,700 --> 01:06:00,900
Apple podcast. 
Stitcher please do so. 

1308
01:06:01,500 --> 01:06:03,000
Thanks for listening and thanks 
for being here. 

1309
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:04,400
Jeffrey, thank you, it's a 
pleasure. 

1310
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:05,500
Thank you. 
Jeff had a good time. 

1311
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:10,100
Okay okay well we'll see you 
whenever it is that we return in

1312
01:06:10,100 --> 01:06:13,000
2020 2020 sometime. 
Okay fine.