1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,560 You're listening to the Reversing Climate Change podcast 2 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:09,080 by the team at NORI, the Carbon Removal Marketplace. 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:11,720 This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:13,520 developing solutions to climate change. 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,240 Hello and welcome to the Reversing Climate Change podcast 6 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:19,760 with Nori. I'm Ross Kenyon. 7 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,600 I'm the head of Creative and Marketing here and one of the 8 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,720 cofounders. Nori is a carbon removal 9 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,920 marketplace based in Seattle, WA and a couple hours South of us. 10 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,119 Is an alumni Wendy Owens, CEO and founder of Hexus Biomass. 11 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,000 Wendy, you were on the show several years ago pre COVID. 12 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,320 It was in our old office. I must be like 2019 or 13 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,720 something. Yeah, I think that was what it 14 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,320 was. Yeah, and then we ran into each 15 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,200 other at Ted Countdown in Detroit and thought we should 16 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,440 really do an update and learn what HEXUS is is up to. 17 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,360 Don't worry if you're listening and you haven't heard that show, 18 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,640 it'll reference it, but you don't need to have listen to it 19 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,920 for this to be accessible to you, so. 20 00:00:56,810 --> 00:00:58,930 A lot of prologue there. Welcome, Wendy. 21 00:01:00,170 --> 00:01:03,570 Thank you, Ross. I really enjoyed getting down to 22 00:01:03,930 --> 00:01:06,490 see your test field. I enjoyed getting to see the 23 00:01:06,490 --> 00:01:10,130 Hexis lab and see what you're working on. 24 00:01:10,170 --> 00:01:15,010 As someone who doesn't have a material reality focus, it's 25 00:01:15,010 --> 00:01:17,770 nice to actually see people working on problems like that. 26 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,280 Yeah, it's it's something that I think, you know we we need now 27 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,680 is is new types of raw material that are more sustainable than 28 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,880 what we have access to currently. 29 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,720 So I I appreciate you taking the time to come down and visit. 30 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:38,240 I have a thesis for why raw materials do get less focused. 31 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,960 Perhaps one is that it sounds very Soviet to me. 32 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:44,080 You know, it sounds just like the idea of like we must 33 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,960 increase iron output or something like that. 34 00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:49,400 Sounds like it's something that some commissar would say. 35 00:01:50,030 --> 00:01:52,270 That's a silly reason, but also a true reason. 36 00:01:52,710 --> 00:01:56,630 But I think software, and the way that software is funded and 37 00:01:56,630 --> 00:02:01,030 makes people wealthy, has distorted our sense of time with 38 00:02:01,030 --> 00:02:04,110 regard to building new things. I think people expect that if 39 00:02:04,110 --> 00:02:07,670 you build a really cool prototype, you get some users. 40 00:02:08,070 --> 00:02:10,710 Your software company could become a Unicorn very quickly. 41 00:02:11,110 --> 00:02:14,310 And there's this drive for software to do everything. 42 00:02:14,310 --> 00:02:16,830 That's how to say that software isn't powerful and important. 43 00:02:17,530 --> 00:02:21,210 But it certainly is much slower to work with things like 44 00:02:21,850 --> 00:02:24,530 material science, biology, chemistry. 45 00:02:25,290 --> 00:02:27,410 Am I on to something there? Am I reading too much into this? 46 00:02:28,970 --> 00:02:32,250 No, you're absolutely right. It's not something that normally 47 00:02:32,250 --> 00:02:35,090 happens that we come up with a new raw material. 48 00:02:35,450 --> 00:02:39,370 You know, the 50s in the plastic era, you know, that was new raw 49 00:02:39,370 --> 00:02:42,850 materials for that rubber. Before that, of course, we had 50 00:02:42,850 --> 00:02:45,420 lots of wood. So integrating a new raw 51 00:02:45,420 --> 00:02:49,180 material into the existing supply chain is it takes a 52 00:02:49,180 --> 00:02:51,220 little bit of effort and a little bit of time. 53 00:02:51,540 --> 00:02:55,180 But right now with this new bioeconomy, let's just call it, 54 00:02:55,380 --> 00:02:59,900 it's really commodities based. So we're looking at changing the 55 00:02:59,900 --> 00:03:03,220 way we use plastic and using less of it, using more 56 00:03:03,220 --> 00:03:06,100 sustainable materials. There's this whole question 57 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:11,380 about wood as a raw material and its value and cutting trees and 58 00:03:11,820 --> 00:03:16,000 deforestation and so forth. So I think it's relevant to look 59 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,000 at this. We have to look at this economy 60 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,360 in a different way than we looked at more of the high tech 61 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,600 economy with software and such. No, it's not going to move as 62 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,000 quickly, but we are, you know, focused nonetheless on making up 63 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,280 a big or a bigger impact than maybe a piece of software could. 64 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:40,000 How much of this bioeconomy involves replacing? 65 00:03:41,060 --> 00:03:44,460 Costly or environmentally damaging practices with some 66 00:03:44,460 --> 00:03:47,900 plug and play better solution. How much of it is creating an 67 00:03:47,900 --> 00:03:52,140 entirely new category? I'm sure for some applications 68 00:03:52,140 --> 00:03:54,020 it's one, for others it might be the other. 69 00:03:54,220 --> 00:03:56,740 What do you think? Yeah. 70 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:00,220 You know honestly in order to be successful when you look at 71 00:04:00,220 --> 00:04:04,220 history especially with these raw materials, you need to have 72 00:04:04,220 --> 00:04:08,060 a situation that you're making use of the existing billion 73 00:04:08,060 --> 00:04:11,100 dollars, trillion dollars worth of manufacturing infrastructure 74 00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:14,380 that exists. So you need to have a solution 75 00:04:14,380 --> 00:04:17,339 that doesn't require someone to change their light fixture to 76 00:04:17,339 --> 00:04:20,380 use your new light bulb. And that's not just in case of 77 00:04:20,380 --> 00:04:22,780 raw materials, but just for light bulbs and light fixtures 78 00:04:22,780 --> 00:04:24,180 as well when you look at it that way. 79 00:04:24,580 --> 00:04:28,500 So it's there are new materials that could have new 80 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:31,860 applications, but our focus specifically is on integrating 81 00:04:31,860 --> 00:04:35,190 into existing industries and their existing manufacturing 82 00:04:35,190 --> 00:04:39,870 systems and that then will accelerate adoption and then 83 00:04:39,870 --> 00:04:42,790 allow us to move into new applications as well. 84 00:04:43,870 --> 00:04:47,670 I think that's a nice general foundation setting for the space 85 00:04:47,670 --> 00:04:51,510 as a whole and surely there's more to say, but it's probably a 86 00:04:51,510 --> 00:04:56,070 good time to reintroduce Hexas biomass, how you started what 87 00:04:56,070 --> 00:04:59,550 you're working on, what's unique about you relative to other 88 00:05:00,110 --> 00:05:03,710 biomass innovators? Sure. 89 00:05:03,710 --> 00:05:06,590 So let's see Hexas biomass in general. 90 00:05:06,590 --> 00:05:11,270 We produce a plant based fiber that is a replacement or 91 00:05:11,270 --> 00:05:15,510 substitute for fossil fuel based fibers and also for wood. 92 00:05:16,030 --> 00:05:18,710 And we can also supplement those so we don't have to get rid of 93 00:05:18,710 --> 00:05:22,230 them all completely because wow, those are that's a lot of raw 94 00:05:22,230 --> 00:05:24,030 material around the world to replace. 95 00:05:24,230 --> 00:05:26,110 So supplementing is also an option. 96 00:05:26,430 --> 00:05:28,880 So our fiber is called Xanofiber. 97 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,720 It's a carbon negative fiber. If we grow it from a giant 98 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,600 perennial grass we call Xanograss that we developed here 99 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,840 and that Xanograss will sequester carbon significant 100 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:41,640 amount over a ton of carbon below ground every year and we 101 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,520 can plant it once and then grow this plant for 15 to 20 years. 102 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:51,600 I actually saw the wild version of the plant that I've developed 103 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,560 Xanograss from WOW back almost 10 years ago. 104 00:05:55,980 --> 00:05:59,780 And I just looked at it from a a structural applications 105 00:05:59,780 --> 00:06:02,940 perspective, So things like potentially building materials 106 00:06:02,940 --> 00:06:05,900 and and furniture and so forth because it had just this great 107 00:06:06,260 --> 00:06:08,740 fiber profile. So with my background in 108 00:06:08,740 --> 00:06:11,100 materials engineering and biotech, I just couldn't get it 109 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:12,820 out of my head and I thought, well, this is something that I 110 00:06:12,820 --> 00:06:18,220 want to do, something that can have that big major impact, not 111 00:06:18,220 --> 00:06:20,620 that I was looking for that. I just thought I don't like to 112 00:06:20,620 --> 00:06:24,740 see trees cut down to the point where we're making toothpicks 113 00:06:24,740 --> 00:06:26,020 and things like that out of them. 114 00:06:26,340 --> 00:06:30,420 And it'd be nice to have fewer plastic material produced 115 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:32,780 products. So it took about five years to 116 00:06:32,780 --> 00:06:36,220 develop our, our technologies including the plants and we do 117 00:06:36,220 --> 00:06:38,500 the propagation of this plant, it's sterile, there are no 118 00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:42,220 seeds, so it's not invasive. The production capabilities then 119 00:06:42,220 --> 00:06:44,660 we're harvesting of it and then post harvest processing into 120 00:06:45,580 --> 00:06:48,780 chips and strips and and grinding it up into sort of a 121 00:06:48,780 --> 00:06:52,310 flower even depending on the application it's going into and 122 00:06:52,310 --> 00:06:55,790 then you know specific applications that this we might 123 00:06:55,790 --> 00:06:57,670 be using it into investigating those. 124 00:06:58,390 --> 00:07:00,870 So that's that's where we started and now we're in the 125 00:07:00,870 --> 00:07:03,110 process of real commercialization takes a little 126 00:07:03,110 --> 00:07:06,310 like you said a little while to get there as a as a raw material 127 00:07:06,310 --> 00:07:10,390 that I guess deep tech product and we are, we have pilot 128 00:07:10,390 --> 00:07:13,830 agreements in several different industries, we have grants and 129 00:07:13,830 --> 00:07:15,110 so forth. So we're really moving this 130 00:07:15,110 --> 00:07:16,950 forward now, really off to the races. 131 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,320 One thing that you've mentioned too, this is on the original 132 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,560 podcast is that it actually grows on marginal land because 133 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,160 one of these super old fights that happens while I'm 134 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,000 introducing this in exactly the same way as the other podcast, 135 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,680 one of these classic fights about biomass is how much land 136 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,400 is going towards growing a food and how much of it is going 137 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,360 towards fiber or ethanol or something like that and how that 138 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,920 impacts food politics and people getting enough food to eat and 139 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,160 things like that. But. 140 00:07:46,460 --> 00:07:49,500 Your approach to biomass has xenograss growing on marginal 141 00:07:49,500 --> 00:07:51,340 lands that would not otherwise be farmed. 142 00:07:51,500 --> 00:07:54,380 Is that right? That's correct. 143 00:07:54,380 --> 00:08:00,900 So around the world they're over 208,000,000 acres of just 144 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:03,460 abandoned farmland. That's just abandoned farmland. 145 00:08:03,460 --> 00:08:06,100 And one of the reasons people are abandoning farmland is 146 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:11,060 because they we've overused fertilizers, we've depleted the 147 00:08:11,220 --> 00:08:14,680 the groundwater, so there's not enough water there and yet this 148 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,480 farmland is just sitting there topsoil is washing away. 149 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,320 The rural communities in which it sits are not benefiting from 150 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,520 it at all. Property values have gone down. 151 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,440 So when you look at that situation, you say, OK, wait a 152 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,920 minute, yes, we still have valuable farmland out there 153 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,360 where food is growing, but we have a significant amount of 154 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,200 land, whether it's farmland or old sugar cane plantations, old 155 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,760 tea plantations, strip mines where that land is not being 156 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,630 utilized, there's no monetary incentive to revitalize it. 157 00:08:44,190 --> 00:08:47,950 And then but if you have a product like ours where we can 158 00:08:47,950 --> 00:08:51,270 utilize that land and in utilization of that land 159 00:08:51,270 --> 00:08:55,030 sequester carbon but also rebuild that topsoil and rebuild 160 00:08:55,030 --> 00:08:58,390 the soil and the soil Biome and add nitrogen to the soil. 161 00:08:58,630 --> 00:09:01,950 Just with this one plant, the root system goes so deep that 162 00:09:01,950 --> 00:09:05,400 we're we can break up hard pack and this plant is wonderful. 163 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,800 Xanagraphs will actually create its own Biome for soil to have a 164 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,640 symbiotic relationship with the bacteria and fungi there, so 165 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:15,280 creating its own little ecosystem. 166 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:21,360 So we feel that if you have deteriorated land and we can use 167 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,680 it and we can turn it into valuable land again, that can be 168 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:30,280 either used again for food crops, reused for rewilding and 169 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,260 replanting of native species, or some of it even used for housing 170 00:09:35,340 --> 00:09:38,500 and housing relief on that. But if we're revitalizing those 171 00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:42,700 rural communities, creating jobs and building up that economy 172 00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:45,300 again, we're feel like we're doing the right thing by people. 173 00:09:46,260 --> 00:09:50,340 Are there many competitors or peers of yours who are working 174 00:09:50,340 --> 00:09:53,900 on similar biological entries into this space? 175 00:09:56,150 --> 00:10:00,070 There are some people who are working on specific biomass, 176 00:10:00,150 --> 00:10:03,190 competing biomass with ours. So that would be things like 177 00:10:03,470 --> 00:10:09,030 Miscanthus and switch grass and hemp, Napier grass and and also 178 00:10:09,030 --> 00:10:11,550 some agricultural residuals. But we'll keep those separate 179 00:10:11,550 --> 00:10:13,230 because that's not purposefully grown. 180 00:10:13,230 --> 00:10:15,550 We're we're considered what's called a purposefully grown 181 00:10:15,550 --> 00:10:17,910 crop. So there are some, yes. 182 00:10:18,910 --> 00:10:23,150 How does, how does Hexis fare xenograss fare in the trade-offs 183 00:10:23,150 --> 00:10:24,870 against some of these other approaches? 184 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,840 So first one of the things that I realized and looking back at 185 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,600 sort of historically at the the fiber, raw material fiber 186 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,800 industry is that it's fairly disjunct in that you might have 187 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,280 a farmer who grows and then a middle person who who sells and 188 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,480 then that gets sold again on the spot market and there's just a 189 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,920 lot of players. So the first thing we did was 190 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,760 streamline that and have a fully integrated supply chain which 191 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,890 starts with us putting those plants in the ground to the 192 00:10:52,890 --> 00:10:55,330 formatting of the fiber. So that's different for us and 193 00:10:55,330 --> 00:10:58,890 that keeps our cost very straightforward and our 194 00:10:58,890 --> 00:11:02,130 customers like that because they know exactly what the pricing is 195 00:11:02,130 --> 00:11:04,170 going to be and it's not going to fluctuate like we had would 196 00:11:04,170 --> 00:11:06,450 fluctuate so much during the COVID years. 197 00:11:07,170 --> 00:11:10,530 Secondly, we produce a significant amount of more 198 00:11:10,530 --> 00:11:13,570 biomass. We produce significantly more 199 00:11:13,570 --> 00:11:18,330 biomass on a per acre basis than these other competing biomass 200 00:11:18,330 --> 00:11:20,170 products. So that makes this very land use 201 00:11:20,170 --> 00:11:23,940 efficient. For example, we can produce 20 202 00:11:23,940 --> 00:11:29,220 to 25 dry tons of biomass on an acre whereas mescanthus it may 203 00:11:29,220 --> 00:11:32,940 be 15 and switch grass 5, hemp maybe 7. 204 00:11:33,420 --> 00:11:35,380 So significantly more. That makes us much more 205 00:11:35,380 --> 00:11:40,940 efficient in use of inputs, less water, less labor, less use of 206 00:11:41,260 --> 00:11:44,740 you know tractors and fossil fuel based machinery that we 207 00:11:44,740 --> 00:11:48,100 currently have to use. So that that that's that's where 208 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:50,900 a big differentiator for us is just the efficiency of 209 00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:54,880 production. I have such a a basic and kind 210 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,960 of weird question. Remember, this is a a topic of 211 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,160 debate among early scientists. We're trying to figure out where 212 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,000 biomass comes from. Like, does it come from water? 213 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,800 Does it come from the soil? Is it synthesized out of the air 214 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,120 somehow? But where? 215 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,560 Where is all that extra tonnage coming from? 216 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,480 Is that a crazy question? No, I would say that's coming 217 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,000 from all those things. I mean you think about the plant 218 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,000 as a living thing just like us. And we, we have building blocks 219 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,800 which are essentially the same as plants, but you know, we need 220 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,760 to eat to survive. And and these plants, these 221 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,520 plants that we grow in terms of xenograss, they use a lot of 222 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,440 photosynthetic energy. So they spread their leaves out 223 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:44,600 in order to generate the energy necessary to grow so much 224 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,040 material over a shorter period of time. 225 00:12:47,610 --> 00:12:50,970 And like I said, they create their own soil Biome to support 226 00:12:50,970 --> 00:12:54,170 that production and have a symbiotic relationship with that 227 00:12:54,170 --> 00:12:59,410 that Biome yet using less water than other plants in production. 228 00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:02,410 So, yeah, it's a combination of all those elements coming 229 00:13:02,410 --> 00:13:05,210 together in just this remarkable plant. 230 00:13:06,010 --> 00:13:09,890 Is it possibly related to its sterility and that it isn't 231 00:13:09,890 --> 00:13:14,170 spending much in terms of resources for reproduction? 232 00:13:16,290 --> 00:13:18,490 Yes. So it wouldn't create like, you 233 00:13:18,530 --> 00:13:21,850 know, it's in the same family as corn and bamboo for example. 234 00:13:21,850 --> 00:13:24,170 And you know bamboo can grow very quickly as well. 235 00:13:24,410 --> 00:13:28,210 So neither xenograss or bamboo produce a fruit like a like corn 236 00:13:28,210 --> 00:13:29,970 would. And then it also doesn't produce 237 00:13:29,970 --> 00:13:36,690 any seeds, so there's no need to expend energy on reproduction at 238 00:13:36,690 --> 00:13:37,250 all. So. 239 00:13:39,490 --> 00:13:41,850 This kind of hurt my brain to think about, and you showed me 240 00:13:41,850 --> 00:13:46,570 some of these reproductive nodes on the segments of the 241 00:13:46,570 --> 00:13:48,930 zanograss. But how do you? 242 00:13:48,970 --> 00:13:51,730 Because I know you're involved in in some sort of selective 243 00:13:51,730 --> 00:13:53,650 breedings. You're you're searching for 244 00:13:53,650 --> 00:13:56,970 traits, you're breeding for traits, yet this isn't a plant. 245 00:13:56,970 --> 00:13:59,770 That is. What's the opposite of sterility 246 00:13:59,770 --> 00:14:00,730 here? Fecundity. 247 00:14:01,010 --> 00:14:03,650 It isn't naturally. Second God, is that even? 248 00:14:03,650 --> 00:14:04,890 Is that the right way to say that? 249 00:14:05,650 --> 00:14:07,570 How do you, how do you breathe in a plant that doesn't 250 00:14:07,570 --> 00:14:11,210 seemingly want to? Well, you know, it's interesting 251 00:14:11,210 --> 00:14:15,490 that with this plant we'll select those those plants that 252 00:14:15,490 --> 00:14:20,770 are working really well with the soil to be high producers in 253 00:14:20,770 --> 00:14:24,250 terms of biomass volume, right. And therefore, if they're 254 00:14:24,250 --> 00:14:26,610 working well with that soil, then it's likely they'll work 255 00:14:26,610 --> 00:14:29,330 well within the same similar type of soil somewhere else. 256 00:14:30,010 --> 00:14:33,530 Now the this plant also, again I keep going back, but it does 257 00:14:33,530 --> 00:14:36,450 have this relationship with the bacteria and the Biome, the 258 00:14:36,450 --> 00:14:39,980 fungi and the soil that also will help it turn off and on 259 00:14:39,980 --> 00:14:45,620 genes, what are called alleles in the plant to help it work 260 00:14:45,620 --> 00:14:48,340 best in the environment in which it's living. 261 00:14:48,340 --> 00:14:52,220 So it can live in some fairly harsh environments, but it's 262 00:14:52,540 --> 00:14:55,500 that really cool relationship that plants have with one 263 00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:58,220 another, just like trees have with one another where they help 264 00:14:58,220 --> 00:15:01,300 each other out. Where does the carbon removal 265 00:15:01,620 --> 00:15:05,980 portion of this come in? There's really two places. 266 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,840 One is in the stock material, so that above ground material and 267 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:18,360 if that then you know, has about 48 to 49.2% carbon in that stock 268 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,200 material. Then if that material is used 269 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,680 for engineered lumber, for fiber board, for materials that are 270 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,480 going to be long lived in utilization, then you get that 271 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,930 level of carbon sequestration. So that's about 12 to 12 1/2 272 00:15:34,930 --> 00:15:38,770 tons of carbon in the stock material on a per acre basis. 273 00:15:38,770 --> 00:15:41,570 It could be more depending if we're growing in a warmer 274 00:15:41,570 --> 00:15:43,410 climate, we'll get even more material grown. 275 00:15:44,090 --> 00:15:47,570 And then underground is the other place where we see carbon 276 00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:52,210 storage and we are working on that underground carbon storage 277 00:15:52,210 --> 00:15:54,410 to really understand how that functions. 278 00:15:55,130 --> 00:15:58,810 We know that the roots for xenografts will go deeper than 279 00:15:58,810 --> 00:16:03,610 60 centimeters, which should provide some level of permanence 280 00:16:03,610 --> 00:16:07,290 and stability within the soil. And then that upper, you know, 281 00:16:07,410 --> 00:16:11,570 zero to 30 plus soil is alive, It's going to move around, it's 282 00:16:11,570 --> 00:16:15,570 going to shift things around. So we are working with the USDA 283 00:16:15,850 --> 00:16:19,210 on one of the research farms to study exactly what happens in 284 00:16:19,210 --> 00:16:23,490 that upper level of soil and what the degree of permanence 285 00:16:23,490 --> 00:16:28,060 might be there. And which of the applications 286 00:16:28,060 --> 00:16:33,060 are you actively investigating right now for the above ground 287 00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:36,940 biomass that you're producing? I can see so many applications 288 00:16:36,940 --> 00:16:42,260 for this to swap in for less environmentally friendly assets. 289 00:16:44,070 --> 00:16:45,550 Yeah. So like like we were looking at 290 00:16:45,550 --> 00:16:49,070 the lab, there's certainly the the fiber boards where you have 291 00:16:49,070 --> 00:16:52,590 a lot of wood used for particle board production for furniture 292 00:16:52,590 --> 00:16:56,750 and and molding and and so and then medium density fiber board. 293 00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:59,230 High density fiber. It's used for that now when 294 00:16:59,230 --> 00:17:02,670 people make it wood. So there's they use. 295 00:17:02,670 --> 00:17:04,910 Some places are using whole logs. 296 00:17:05,349 --> 00:17:10,410 They're also using residuals from timber mills and some 297 00:17:10,410 --> 00:17:13,170 places are also using what's called construction waste. 298 00:17:13,170 --> 00:17:15,650 So wood from construction waste that might have nails and things 299 00:17:15,650 --> 00:17:19,089 like that in there, but there still is some virgin wood being 300 00:17:19,089 --> 00:17:22,569 used no matter where you are to produce that kind of those kind 301 00:17:22,569 --> 00:17:26,010 of fiber boards. So we can be the alternative to 302 00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:29,010 that virgin wood in in these applications. 303 00:17:30,010 --> 00:17:32,690 The same thing with the pulp applications, whether it's for 304 00:17:32,690 --> 00:17:36,410 paper or for packaging or for direct or for multiple packaging 305 00:17:36,410 --> 00:17:39,240 as well. We can be that replacements for 306 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,040 wood and wood residuals in those applications as well. 307 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:47,280 And is this wood typically coming from, I mean, this isn't 308 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,440 some 400 year old cedar that's being cut down. 309 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,440 It's oftentimes coming from a tree farm, I would guess, right. 310 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,200 Yeah. So you have farms specifically 311 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,240 in particularly in the Southeastern United States for 312 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:07,430 example, where they're farming trees specifically for timber 313 00:18:07,550 --> 00:18:09,590 and then for turning into lumber. 314 00:18:09,870 --> 00:18:11,630 And then there's a lot of residual from that. 315 00:18:12,190 --> 00:18:16,190 The biggest struggle with the repeated cutting of trees and 316 00:18:16,190 --> 00:18:18,830 tree farms and such is when you get a monocrop, right. 317 00:18:18,830 --> 00:18:22,710 You get the same tree over and over in a perfect rose and you 318 00:18:22,750 --> 00:18:26,470 also then the soil gets depleted because you're not growing a 319 00:18:26,470 --> 00:18:32,990 diverse set of of plants, grasses and etcetera, fungi and 320 00:18:32,990 --> 00:18:36,000 so forth in in these settings. So that that's one of the 321 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,560 struggles with the constant farming of trees, let's say. 322 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,280 So what they're not adding as much as it has to be taken away 323 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,360 to put that new little tree in the ground and get it up to up 324 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:48,680 to size. So that's one of the struggles 325 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,960 with these farms. But there are lots of places 326 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,840 unlike the US that don't have a lot of access to trees and to 327 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,230 wood. So in those locations you may 328 00:18:59,230 --> 00:19:02,710 see more cutting of trees that are very, very valuable and have 329 00:19:02,710 --> 00:19:06,510 a very significant impact on the ecosystems there. 330 00:19:06,830 --> 00:19:10,430 So if we can replace any use of those trees looking outside the 331 00:19:10,430 --> 00:19:15,150 US, then we can be valuable in those systems for building 332 00:19:15,150 --> 00:19:20,270 materials for fuels, liquid biofuels for example, for like 333 00:19:20,270 --> 00:19:22,310 in pulp and paper, for even textiles. 334 00:19:22,310 --> 00:19:25,390 So lots of applications where we can come in and and make a 335 00:19:25,390 --> 00:19:27,990 difference. What do you think will happen to 336 00:19:27,990 --> 00:19:33,270 those tree farms if they were out competed by xenograss 337 00:19:33,270 --> 00:19:34,950 biomass? Would they? 338 00:19:34,990 --> 00:19:39,110 Because they their own, they're probably owned by large timber 339 00:19:39,110 --> 00:19:42,670 organizations, in which case they probably wouldn't just be 340 00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:48,510 rewilded and diversified, they might just be clear cut and then 341 00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:51,550 abandoned or sold off or stranded. 342 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,760 And that's sort of a hardcore question, but what happens if 343 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,600 they become less valuable because the product that they're 344 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,360 making is no longer as desirable as something like Santa grass? 345 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,080 I know this is not your responsibility actually. 346 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,200 I appreciate that. The 2nd order respects of this 347 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,320 is what I'm curious about. Yeah. 348 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,120 Well, fortunately there are people who are no longer cutting 349 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,440 their trees. So a lot, a lot of the, the land 350 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,960 in the US is privately owned, not just by companies but also 351 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:25,560 by families who made purchases in large tracts of land with 352 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,560 with trees and they're actually getting paid to let those trees 353 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,760 stand, right. So to continue to sequester that 354 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,040 carbon. So that's the one real benefit 355 00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:36,360 of this. There are people who have bought 356 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:38,680 that land and then we'll just cut like you say cut those trees 357 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,330 down, take all that revenue from the the lumber that would come 358 00:20:42,570 --> 00:20:46,250 and then sell that land for you know maybe housing or or 359 00:20:46,250 --> 00:20:50,410 something like that. So I don't know privately what 360 00:20:50,410 --> 00:20:53,050 they would do, but I I would imagine that we're not going to 361 00:20:53,050 --> 00:20:58,930 be seeing wood replaced 100% by zanograss, Nanofiber and other 362 00:20:59,050 --> 00:21:01,810 non wood fibers in the Super near future. 363 00:21:02,090 --> 00:21:06,170 So hopefully people will be smart about their investments 364 00:21:06,450 --> 00:21:11,340 and look to how they may still capitalize on those, but maybe 365 00:21:11,340 --> 00:21:13,620 not necessarily the way they thought they would capitalize on 366 00:21:13,620 --> 00:21:18,340 those. I guess why not? 367 00:21:18,540 --> 00:21:22,300 Why wouldn't we see xenograss and biomass take over if it's 368 00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:27,860 using abandoned, corrupted, marginal land that has all these 369 00:21:27,860 --> 00:21:29,860 great benefits? There's probably more ability 370 00:21:29,860 --> 00:21:33,260 for ecosystem service payments, and maybe not, depending on the 371 00:21:33,260 --> 00:21:36,740 trees and where they're located. But why is all this energy? 372 00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:38,780 Is it just institutional inertia? 373 00:21:39,180 --> 00:21:43,340 Why are we still talking about using trees for these for like 374 00:21:43,340 --> 00:21:46,700 low value commodity based inputs? 375 00:21:48,220 --> 00:21:50,540 Well, we're still cutting trees for lumber. 376 00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:54,100 So that's the primary reason to cut trees and that the lumber 377 00:21:54,100 --> 00:21:58,460 you can get probably 33% of the tree to 37% of the tree is my 378 00:21:58,460 --> 00:22:00,540 understanding. I would have to look this up 379 00:22:00,540 --> 00:22:04,220 again, but in my, as I recall is what's used for lumber and then 380 00:22:04,220 --> 00:22:09,450 you have the bark and the other parts of the trees that can be 381 00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:13,290 converted into these fiber boards, energy pellets for 382 00:22:13,290 --> 00:22:15,930 direct combustion and other applications. 383 00:22:15,930 --> 00:22:18,530 I mean they even use wood to make textiles. 384 00:22:18,890 --> 00:22:21,770 So there's there's a market, right, There's a market for it 385 00:22:21,770 --> 00:22:24,810 not just for the, the lumber, but back in the 60s they 386 00:22:24,810 --> 00:22:27,370 realized, wow, we got to do something with all the sawdust. 387 00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:29,130 You're building all these houses, we have all the sawdust. 388 00:22:29,130 --> 00:22:31,010 What are we going to do? So they just mixed it with glue 389 00:22:31,010 --> 00:22:32,450 and made these other type of boards. 390 00:22:33,420 --> 00:22:35,860 So there's there's an industry built up around this. 391 00:22:36,220 --> 00:22:39,700 There also is a significantly more trees being grown than 392 00:22:39,700 --> 00:22:42,180 there is xenograss or other biomass. 393 00:22:42,540 --> 00:22:45,100 We can switch that over particularly if we can please 394 00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:48,460 get rid of corn as a source for biofuel. 395 00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:52,220 But it's going to take a little time to make that switch and 396 00:22:52,220 --> 00:22:56,300 have to go through that adoption period and bump up against some 397 00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:59,620 people who are, you know, definitely well and deep 398 00:22:59,620 --> 00:23:02,260 invested in maintaining that status quo. 399 00:23:03,380 --> 00:23:09,180 I would love to learn more about ethanol and corn biofuel. 400 00:23:09,620 --> 00:23:13,100 Energetically, it doesn't actually make sense. 401 00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:16,580 It costs more energy to produce than it does to use it. 402 00:23:17,260 --> 00:23:21,300 So that's bad, negative from the start. 403 00:23:21,980 --> 00:23:25,940 And yet it persists and is so powerful Is did it come about? 404 00:23:25,940 --> 00:23:29,380 Maybe during the OPEC oil crisis decades ago. 405 00:23:29,970 --> 00:23:31,610 And then it's just hung on since then. 406 00:23:31,970 --> 00:23:33,650 My layperson's understanding of it. 407 00:23:33,650 --> 00:23:36,930 Do you happen to know? I don't have a real clear 408 00:23:36,930 --> 00:23:42,210 understanding of of the origins. I know that it is a valuable 409 00:23:42,210 --> 00:23:45,410 product for people who produce corn in general. 410 00:23:45,410 --> 00:23:48,050 Well, we know that they like it. That's that's no real surprise, 411 00:23:48,170 --> 00:23:49,530 Wendy. Yes, they like having. 412 00:23:49,610 --> 00:23:51,730 Yeah. Yeah, they like having the money 413 00:23:51,730 --> 00:23:53,930 in the subsidies. And so there's about what 414 00:23:53,930 --> 00:23:57,250 93,000,000 acres of corn produced in the US and I think 415 00:23:57,250 --> 00:24:01,690 40% of that is used for fuel. So you know, again, these are 416 00:24:01,690 --> 00:24:06,690 people who are invested in long term into the reduction of 417 00:24:06,690 --> 00:24:09,530 ethanol. My understanding from talking 418 00:24:09,530 --> 00:24:12,490 with people who are experts in the industry is that as we move 419 00:24:12,490 --> 00:24:16,930 to electric vehicles, we'll also see decreased use in ethanol, 420 00:24:16,930 --> 00:24:21,490 therefore a decreased need. And I know that in in Europe now 421 00:24:21,490 --> 00:24:25,590 you can no longer sell ethanol into Europe that's produced 422 00:24:25,590 --> 00:24:28,630 using a food crop. So something that you can't 423 00:24:29,310 --> 00:24:32,510 produce from corn or soybean or from sugar cane for example. 424 00:24:32,990 --> 00:24:37,150 So there is the push away from using a food crop to produce 425 00:24:37,150 --> 00:24:42,870 fuel when there is alternatives of biocrops biomass that you can 426 00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:46,870 use for that production that again don't require the use of 427 00:24:46,910 --> 00:24:51,150 food grade land for production. Interesting. 428 00:24:52,610 --> 00:24:56,250 Kind of wonder what would happen actually like if if the economy 429 00:24:56,250 --> 00:25:00,130 is switching over to Ev's it appears that is likely to occur 430 00:25:00,130 --> 00:25:04,290 and keep occurring. I'm wondering if maybe we 431 00:25:04,410 --> 00:25:08,810 produce an import less oil and gas and the percentage of 432 00:25:08,850 --> 00:25:12,850 ethanologist goes up within that existing fuel amount. 433 00:25:14,330 --> 00:25:16,890 How are you? Which one is corn more powerful 434 00:25:16,890 --> 00:25:19,810 than oil and gas or or the other one? 435 00:25:19,810 --> 00:25:22,050 That's a good question. Yeah, sure. 436 00:25:22,050 --> 00:25:24,690 It's more powerful. In terms of those lobbies, well, 437 00:25:24,690 --> 00:25:27,170 you know in in South America, of course they use a lot more 438 00:25:27,170 --> 00:25:29,210 ethanol than we do. It just burns faster in the 439 00:25:29,210 --> 00:25:30,010 cars. Yeah. 440 00:25:30,010 --> 00:25:32,370 So you, you know, you use that up faster than you would. 441 00:25:32,770 --> 00:25:34,770 So you're going to the gas station more often. 442 00:25:35,370 --> 00:25:37,130 They just have a lot of sugar cane down there and they use 443 00:25:37,130 --> 00:25:40,850 that for production down there. So it's, it's again though they 444 00:25:40,850 --> 00:25:45,330 can't now no longer can they take that ethanol and export it 445 00:25:45,330 --> 00:25:49,130 into Europe. So things are changing just like 446 00:25:49,130 --> 00:25:51,950 we started off talking about, right, software, we can move 447 00:25:51,950 --> 00:25:54,710 quickly. If it's not Myspace, it's 448 00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:56,270 Facebook. If it's not Facebook, it's 449 00:25:56,270 --> 00:25:57,950 Twitter. If it's not that, then TikTok 450 00:25:57,950 --> 00:25:59,790 And you see those move fairly quickly. 451 00:26:00,190 --> 00:26:02,750 Whereas when you're talking about the commodities 452 00:26:02,750 --> 00:26:06,270 industries, all these different commodities, we're slower to 453 00:26:06,270 --> 00:26:11,910 make these transitions because you've been the investment is 454 00:26:11,910 --> 00:26:14,870 just in the trillions and trillions of dollars for the 455 00:26:14,870 --> 00:26:16,710 infrastructure associated with this. 456 00:26:17,050 --> 00:26:19,610 And then you have these people who are very invested in terms 457 00:26:19,610 --> 00:26:22,810 of what they're growing and what they're how they're processing. 458 00:26:22,810 --> 00:26:25,130 And you think about all the folks that are involved in the 459 00:26:25,130 --> 00:26:28,490 supply chain, it's going to take a little longer to make that 460 00:26:28,570 --> 00:26:32,050 that transition. I'm always curious how these 461 00:26:32,490 --> 00:26:36,690 problems untangle themselves, because if you just told people 462 00:26:36,690 --> 00:26:41,290 that their investments, their assets were going to be stranded 463 00:26:41,330 --> 00:26:43,850 and they were going to be on the hook financially, obviously they 464 00:26:43,850 --> 00:26:45,990 would have. Enormous incentives to 465 00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:49,390 politically oppose whatever technology was outmaneuvering 466 00:26:49,390 --> 00:26:52,430 them in this way. Should that be a taxpayer 467 00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:55,190 buyout? In the same way, if the US could 468 00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:58,510 just buy out oil and gas companies and turn them into 469 00:26:58,510 --> 00:27:02,270 renewable energy companies, would that save us from a lot of 470 00:27:02,270 --> 00:27:04,750 the fights that we're having right now? 471 00:27:04,870 --> 00:27:07,030 Because their backs wouldn't be against the wall and they'd have 472 00:27:07,030 --> 00:27:13,020 to preserve the status quo. Well, certainly politics plays 473 00:27:13,020 --> 00:27:15,620 into this, but we're seeing a lot of gas and oil companies 474 00:27:15,620 --> 00:27:19,940 move to renewable energy and one of the things that's been very 475 00:27:19,940 --> 00:27:23,980 critical in the transition not just to renewable energy but to 476 00:27:24,260 --> 00:27:27,940 lower greenhouse gas emitting raw materials is regulations. 477 00:27:28,180 --> 00:27:32,740 So I mentioned Europe and the ethanol without coming from a 478 00:27:32,740 --> 00:27:38,060 core, I'm sorry a food product they also you know in by 2040 in 479 00:27:38,060 --> 00:27:41,080 Europe you no longer can use single use plastics for 480 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,360 different packaging and eating utensils and all those very many 481 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:47,680 things including furniture wrappings and the list is 482 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,760 incredible things you don't even think about that are single use 483 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,480 plastics. With those regulations we're 484 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,240 seeing the push towards these alternatives. 485 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,600 So federal regulations at multiple levels are necessary to 486 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,320 start seeing that push for change. 487 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,080 And as we make the transition away from greenhouse gas 488 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,340 emitting fossil fuels and so forth, we are seeing companies 489 00:28:13,340 --> 00:28:16,460 make that switch over and we're seeing them create new 490 00:28:16,460 --> 00:28:18,980 innovations. But again, it's not going to be 491 00:28:18,980 --> 00:28:20,980 an immediate switch. They're still going to be fossil 492 00:28:20,980 --> 00:28:25,260 fuels burned for various applications because you have to 493 00:28:25,260 --> 00:28:29,580 also consider the economics. So if it costs them so much 494 00:28:29,580 --> 00:28:33,700 more, so twice as much to use biomass, let's just say for the 495 00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:38,100 production of fuel, then that twice as much gets passed on the 496 00:28:38,100 --> 00:28:40,870 consumer. So there's there's the whole 497 00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:43,790 economic supply chain that needs to be considered when you're 498 00:28:43,790 --> 00:28:47,830 making these transitions. Therefore the IRA for example 499 00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:50,110 that came out of the Biden administration is supporting 500 00:28:50,110 --> 00:28:53,550 these kind of conversions financially to move to make it 501 00:28:53,550 --> 00:28:58,310 easier to transition to these bio based fuels in the bio based 502 00:28:58,310 --> 00:29:00,990 economy versus a fossil fuel based economy. 503 00:29:01,950 --> 00:29:04,790 Has HEXUS been able to take advantage of the provisions of 504 00:29:04,790 --> 00:29:08,860 the IRA? We will take advantage of them 505 00:29:08,860 --> 00:29:13,300 as a sort of sub within that context. 506 00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:17,500 So as a raw material supplier to those who are moving into the 507 00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:21,020 conversion of those raw materials for sustainable 508 00:29:21,020 --> 00:29:24,580 aviation fuel, for example. So we have a grant from the US 509 00:29:24,580 --> 00:29:27,860 Department of Energy to focus on optimizing our fiber for 510 00:29:27,860 --> 00:29:32,300 conversion into those precursors that then are converted into 511 00:29:32,300 --> 00:29:35,540 sustainable aviation fuel. So that's where we come in. 512 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,000 Wow. And we talked about this in 513 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,880 person too, And that's kerosene, right? 514 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:42,960 Yes. OK. 515 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,960 And but ethanol is more equivalent with gasoline, is 516 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,120 that correct? Yes, right. 517 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,760 So it has to do with the basically energy output. 518 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,840 And so we don't use gas in airplanes because it makes a lot 519 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,880 more energy to get those things off the ground and moving than 520 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,710 it does for of car. So we need you know diesel for 521 00:30:04,750 --> 00:30:10,390 for heavier trucks and you know moving lot heavy loads, but 522 00:30:10,390 --> 00:30:12,150 ethanol we can use for those those lighter weight 523 00:30:12,150 --> 00:30:15,190 applications. Lately I've seen a lot more 524 00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:20,190 skepticism towards the ability of sustainable aviation fuel to 525 00:30:20,190 --> 00:30:24,030 really take off. Was debating whether or not to 526 00:30:24,030 --> 00:30:25,870 draw attention to that unintentional pun. 527 00:30:25,870 --> 00:30:29,070 I'll probably have to edit that out because it's pretty dumb and 528 00:30:29,070 --> 00:30:32,370 I'm unintentional as well. Does it make sense to produce 529 00:30:32,370 --> 00:30:36,570 fuel in that way? So when you look at sustainable 530 00:30:36,570 --> 00:30:41,130 aviation fuel, it comes down to the raw material and it comes 531 00:30:41,130 --> 00:30:45,330 down to can you produce enough of that raw material without 532 00:30:45,330 --> 00:30:49,010 wiping out everything else in order to achieve what we need by 533 00:30:49,010 --> 00:30:53,750 2050, which is somewhere around 500,000,000 gallons of aviation 534 00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:55,350 fuel. And I understand the sustainable 535 00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:58,070 aviation fuel is mixed with existing aviation fuel. 536 00:30:58,070 --> 00:31:02,030 So you're really only getting a 50% carbon cut, but nonetheless 537 00:31:02,030 --> 00:31:05,390 you're getting a carbon cut. So with sustainable aviation 538 00:31:05,390 --> 00:31:09,270 fuel, you're really looking at the economics of it and the the 539 00:31:10,350 --> 00:31:15,720 having to have a biomass product I would say like ours that 540 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,840 produce a significant amount of biomass in a per acre base is 541 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,320 very land use efficient, works well in the existing pathways 542 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,680 that what they're called for sustainable aviation fuel. 543 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,520 So, yeah, the the real question is can you produce enough of 544 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,680 that biomass? Well, we're doing it with corn 545 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,040 and if you just switched over with corn that a lot of 546 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,360 companies are already utilizing towards sustainable aviation 547 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,240 fuel, again, that's a food you really don't want to do that. 548 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,880 Right now most of our sustainable aviation fuel is 549 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,160 being produced from what are called heffas, so fats, greases 550 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,280 and oils. That one kind of bends my head a 551 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,000 little bit because we're using that much what we have right now 552 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:58,360 of going out and collecting fats and greases from restaurants, 553 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,400 for example, or processing plants that have used it and 554 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,440 they're recycling that into fuel in and of itself is quite 555 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,200 greenhouse gas intensive. For all the moving around that 556 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,660 you have to do. If you used to think you start 557 00:32:10,660 --> 00:32:13,380 with a little canola seed and growing that in the farm and 558 00:32:13,380 --> 00:32:15,460 then it gets processed and shipped all over the place and 559 00:32:15,460 --> 00:32:18,220 then reshipped back to processing, we're not going to 560 00:32:18,220 --> 00:32:19,340 get there. There's not enough of it out 561 00:32:19,340 --> 00:32:22,740 there for us to, to achieve what we need in terms of fuel. 562 00:32:23,140 --> 00:32:27,180 So it really comes down to be having enough biomass in the 563 00:32:27,180 --> 00:32:30,740 locations where it's needed to be processed into a sufficient 564 00:32:30,740 --> 00:32:35,020 amount of fuel that makes sense economically for us to to be 565 00:32:35,020 --> 00:32:38,140 mixing with that existing aviation fuels. 566 00:32:38,420 --> 00:32:43,380 You had some sort of mileage limit that it made sense for you 567 00:32:43,380 --> 00:32:47,620 to move Xanograss, right? Right. 568 00:32:47,620 --> 00:32:50,860 So once we harvest the Xanograss and then we call it Xanofiber, 569 00:32:50,860 --> 00:32:55,140 after that, that Xanofiber or any biomass. 570 00:32:55,140 --> 00:32:57,740 So it doesn't matter if it's ours or anybody else's, and 571 00:32:57,740 --> 00:33:01,420 even, you know, wood material, not whole log material, but 572 00:33:02,340 --> 00:33:06,620 chips and and sawdust and so forth, you really only want to 573 00:33:06,620 --> 00:33:10,420 ship that a maximum of 60 miles. And most people will tell you, 574 00:33:10,420 --> 00:33:13,140 no, really, you really want to ship it about 30 miles. 575 00:33:13,780 --> 00:33:17,580 So that being the case, then when you look at the geography 576 00:33:17,580 --> 00:33:21,140 and you look at different ecosystems and climates, you're 577 00:33:21,140 --> 00:33:26,140 really limited to certain biomass growing in certain 578 00:33:26,140 --> 00:33:28,420 locations. But with our biomass, because we 579 00:33:28,420 --> 00:33:31,300 can grow it in so many different climates, in so many different 580 00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:35,060 locations, we offer a different scenario. 581 00:33:35,420 --> 00:33:38,460 The different scenario being that you could use our biomass 582 00:33:38,740 --> 00:33:42,940 in multiple locations for the same process and therefore be 583 00:33:42,940 --> 00:33:46,060 achieving the same results no matter where you are in the 584 00:33:46,060 --> 00:33:47,780 world, essentially. I mean, we're not going to grow 585 00:33:47,780 --> 00:33:49,500 on the side of mountains, we're not going to grow where it's 586 00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:51,820 super, super cold. But we certainly can grow in 587 00:33:51,820 --> 00:33:56,100 many different locations, giving people an option for a very 588 00:33:56,100 --> 00:33:59,540 consistent, reliable supply of biomass with the same properties 589 00:33:59,540 --> 00:34:01,580 over and over again. Because if you want to use 590 00:34:01,580 --> 00:34:06,240 banana peels in one place and switch grass in another and 591 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,800 pineapple here and peanut shells there, you're not going to get 592 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,600 the consistent properties that you need or the consistent 593 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,639 volumes every year, so. Yeah, you probably can't have 594 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:20,520 that much heterogeneity within a raw material stream like this 595 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,400 and have the end product be consistent, right. 596 00:34:24,690 --> 00:34:26,449 Right. So a lot of times you're looking 597 00:34:26,449 --> 00:34:29,050 at just energy output from these different materials. 598 00:34:29,050 --> 00:34:30,690 They they're starting to balance it more. 599 00:34:30,969 --> 00:34:33,730 So they can, they usually balance like for example with 600 00:34:33,730 --> 00:34:36,170 wood and direct combustion with wood pellets. 601 00:34:36,449 --> 00:34:39,290 They'll add a little bit more wood if they have some peanuts 602 00:34:39,290 --> 00:34:42,250 in there or something like that. So they they're working on that 603 00:34:42,290 --> 00:34:45,810 that that balancing of energy use. 604 00:34:46,010 --> 00:34:48,810 But when you're talking about then making a product so you 605 00:34:48,810 --> 00:34:52,610 know whether it's a textile or a paper product or something, you 606 00:34:52,610 --> 00:34:55,850 really do want the same same thing every day. 607 00:34:55,929 --> 00:34:59,170 You know, it's something, not something new, not today is, is 608 00:34:59,250 --> 00:35:02,730 apple cores and tomorrow is high needles and things like this. 609 00:35:02,730 --> 00:35:04,090 You want. You want that consistency. 610 00:35:04,690 --> 00:35:06,850 Yeah, that sounds really complicated to do it some other 611 00:35:06,850 --> 00:35:10,610 way or to have shipments be all mixed together every day. 612 00:35:12,130 --> 00:35:13,570 Yeah. Well, given that you most things 613 00:35:13,570 --> 00:35:17,490 are harvested once a year, then you have a lot of storage issues 614 00:35:17,490 --> 00:35:19,410 and degradation potentially and so forth. 615 00:35:19,650 --> 00:35:21,850 There are issues to deal with. We can harvest you around. 616 00:35:21,850 --> 00:35:23,490 So it makes us a little different that way. 617 00:35:24,260 --> 00:35:27,820 Yeah, that makes sense. Is there an interaction with 618 00:35:28,340 --> 00:35:33,140 bioplastics or some way of using Xanograss to supersede the need 619 00:35:33,140 --> 00:35:40,380 for single use plastics? So sure, you can make products 620 00:35:40,380 --> 00:35:43,460 that are strictly Xanograss. So if you think of now we see a 621 00:35:43,460 --> 00:35:48,020 lot more of those bowls made with scrap wood or scrap bamboo 622 00:35:48,020 --> 00:35:50,340 or something like that, we could certainly replace those or 623 00:35:50,340 --> 00:35:55,240 supplement those. But when you look at biomass and 624 00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,520 you think about it, you know there are different components 625 00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,800 to it and those each one of those components can be fairly 626 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,320 valuable. So if you look at Xanograss for 627 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,560 example and Xano fiber, you can pull the lignin out of that 628 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,560 fiber and use lignin. You know lignin's every, it's 629 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,800 actually used in every battery that you touch. 630 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,000 There's lignin in that you can use it in the cellulose for 631 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,330 making paper or absorbent material for diapers or for 632 00:36:20,330 --> 00:36:21,890 cleaning up oil spills or so forth. 633 00:36:21,890 --> 00:36:24,650 There's so we can pull out these different components from the 634 00:36:24,690 --> 00:36:27,970 Xanofiber and use them in different applications, which 635 00:36:27,970 --> 00:36:29,890 makes it very versatile. You know, you really want to 636 00:36:29,890 --> 00:36:32,170 have something with that level of versatility as well. 637 00:36:32,930 --> 00:36:36,410 Here's another kind of silly 1. Instead of making bioplastics, 638 00:36:36,410 --> 00:36:38,650 could you wrap more things in banana leaves? 639 00:36:38,730 --> 00:36:42,770 Or just big unprocessed fibers, maybe? 640 00:36:43,630 --> 00:36:46,670 I think that would be challenging though, because you 641 00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:50,270 would see degrading of that fiber over time. 642 00:36:50,830 --> 00:36:53,150 So that's the big issue as you're talking about a 643 00:36:53,150 --> 00:36:56,190 biodegradable product, right? So banana leaves, certainly it's 644 00:36:56,190 --> 00:37:00,430 a biodegradable product. I think that if you used it one 645 00:37:00,630 --> 00:37:04,790 maybe twice, you could possibly find A use for it. 646 00:37:04,870 --> 00:37:08,110 But again, banana leaves are very local to where you can 647 00:37:08,110 --> 00:37:11,150 produce bananas. Therefore, you can't really use 648 00:37:11,150 --> 00:37:13,350 them in other places unless you're going to ship them and 649 00:37:13,350 --> 00:37:15,550 somehow preserve them, and then you're getting into the whole 650 00:37:15,550 --> 00:37:20,190 preservative issue. I'm interested in the single use 651 00:37:20,190 --> 00:37:23,550 question. I have an acquaintance who's 652 00:37:24,030 --> 00:37:28,310 always skeptical of environmentalists maneuvering, I 653 00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:35,430 guess you could say, and did not like the move towards reusable 654 00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:40,940 bags only at grocery stores. And he marshalled in defense of 655 00:37:40,940 --> 00:37:48,100 this, that there are, I don't even know, 10s, dozens, hundreds 656 00:37:49,020 --> 00:37:52,420 of cases in the United States every year of things like E coli 657 00:37:52,420 --> 00:37:55,460 coming about through unwashed reusable bags. 658 00:37:55,860 --> 00:37:58,020 And it's, it's, it's user error, right? 659 00:37:58,020 --> 00:38:02,500 It's not like the right? People don't wash them, but is 660 00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:06,220 there a way to to make sure we can throw stuff out that also 661 00:38:06,220 --> 00:38:07,740 isn't harming the planet? I like that. 662 00:38:07,740 --> 00:38:10,250 I like. Being sustainable in the sense 663 00:38:10,250 --> 00:38:13,490 we're using and not being wasteful but also some portion 664 00:38:13,490 --> 00:38:16,650 of the population is going to get sick through negligence 665 00:38:16,650 --> 00:38:18,970 every year if you don't avoid it. 666 00:38:20,050 --> 00:38:23,490 It's true. No, I can completely see that I 667 00:38:23,570 --> 00:38:26,290 that's I hadn't heard that but I can see that that would be the 668 00:38:26,290 --> 00:38:28,210 case. You know the struggle that we're 669 00:38:28,210 --> 00:38:31,730 having right now in terms of biodegradability. 670 00:38:31,730 --> 00:38:33,810 So let's talk about biodegradability because that 671 00:38:33,810 --> 00:38:37,080 would be the ultimately the way that we, let's just say this 672 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,040 material and just have it go back to the earth and return to 673 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,120 earth is that we have different degrees of biodegradability and 674 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,440 some biodegradable ability is, yeah, you could just stick it 675 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,720 outside and it's going to melt and go right back into the soil. 676 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,880 Then there's some that needs a little bit more processing or 677 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,360 some that takes longer than that. 678 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,640 So I think that's where we're struggling right now is on the 679 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:03,560 degrees of biodegradability of this material and how to 680 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,080 implement it and then how to recycle it or find a way that if 681 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,000 you're going to put it in the garbage because you know, we 682 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,880 know everybody throws stuff away, how do we extricate it and 683 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,640 then put it in the right bin, let's just say for 684 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,720 biodegradability. So that's that's something we're 685 00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:22,880 still, I think societies around the world are still working on. 686 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,200 That's been my experience of it too. 687 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,560 And then I've also had experience of products that were 688 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,030 attempting to replace. Cases, Straws. 689 00:39:33,030 --> 00:39:36,390 Plastic straws are clearly bad. I like metal straws, although I 690 00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:41,270 Ding my teeth on them sometimes. But the the worst are I've had 691 00:39:41,270 --> 00:39:45,510 paper straws, I've fallen apart in my mouth and just taste bad. 692 00:39:45,950 --> 00:39:51,030 I spent $6 on this iced coffee and now it's it's basically 693 00:39:51,070 --> 00:39:53,550 terrible. I know this has become a Trump 694 00:39:53,550 --> 00:39:58,310 talking point and I am ashamed to be echoing it, but also he's 695 00:39:58,310 --> 00:40:00,750 kind of right. I'm not like paper straws. 696 00:40:01,230 --> 00:40:03,350 My experience has been almost universally negative. 697 00:40:03,550 --> 00:40:05,910 So if you do make a straw, Wendy, can you make it worth a 698 00:40:05,910 --> 00:40:06,790 damn? Please. 699 00:40:07,990 --> 00:40:10,150 I'm gonna try, I think. Think what you get with paper 700 00:40:10,150 --> 00:40:13,190 straws though too, Ross, is you get a lot of it's recycled paper 701 00:40:13,790 --> 00:40:16,270 and you're talking about when you're talking about straws and 702 00:40:16,270 --> 00:40:19,510 that that is just a low value commodity overall, right. 703 00:40:19,510 --> 00:40:24,150 So you're gonna get probably a low value material into it, you 704 00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:27,430 know, so that that it's maybe twice recycled wood that you 705 00:40:27,470 --> 00:40:29,910 have going to these straws. I don't know, but there's. 706 00:40:30,850 --> 00:40:34,650 We can use our material not either recycled or not recycled 707 00:40:34,890 --> 00:40:38,850 and to make these kind of paper products and lower cost And 708 00:40:38,850 --> 00:40:42,250 actually because we're using essentially grass and Zano 709 00:40:42,250 --> 00:40:44,130 grass, right. And our fiber that comes out of 710 00:40:44,130 --> 00:40:46,610 it is is differently structured than wood would be. 711 00:40:46,930 --> 00:40:50,890 We can use a less chemically caustic process for producing 712 00:40:50,890 --> 00:40:54,410 the paper that would be used to make these straws, for example, 713 00:40:54,410 --> 00:40:57,850 are used to make corrugated boxes and and wrapping and so 714 00:40:57,850 --> 00:41:00,510 forth. So I don't have a solution for 715 00:41:00,510 --> 00:41:03,590 your the straw issue because I'm not quite sure how many times 716 00:41:03,590 --> 00:41:06,710 that paper has been recycled, and I'm guessing they're not 717 00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:10,150 putting a wax on it for just sealing it up to prevent it from 718 00:41:10,470 --> 00:41:16,390 just melting away like you say. I like the angle that you come 719 00:41:16,390 --> 00:41:21,310 out with where it seems in many cases Xeno fiber should perform 720 00:41:21,310 --> 00:41:25,630 similarly or outperform the conventionally produced product. 721 00:41:25,710 --> 00:41:29,220 I imagine that's at least your intention, in which case I think 722 00:41:29,220 --> 00:41:31,140 that generates a lot less conflict. 723 00:41:31,140 --> 00:41:34,260 I think when you're asking people to swap out something 724 00:41:34,260 --> 00:41:38,180 that is convenient or easy for them, and then the product is 725 00:41:38,180 --> 00:41:42,580 just bad, even if they have to sacrifice for some abstract 726 00:41:42,580 --> 00:41:44,660 goal. I guess sometimes that works. 727 00:41:44,780 --> 00:41:47,340 I guess when, when are people willing to sacrifice and when? 728 00:41:47,340 --> 00:41:53,110 When exactly aren't they? I don't think they are just in 729 00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:56,670 general, well somebody's they are like it's we're recording on 730 00:41:56,670 --> 00:41:59,350 September 11th right now. So that was a day where people, 731 00:41:59,870 --> 00:42:02,910 for better or for worse, like collectively amounted to 732 00:42:02,910 --> 00:42:05,030 something. Right. 733 00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:11,030 But so when you think about from the perspective of a raw 734 00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:15,190 material, when I came into this, I had done work in materials 735 00:42:15,190 --> 00:42:19,030 engineering and one thing I knew is that what are? 736 00:42:19,660 --> 00:42:24,020 Hex's customers would want is that again, they wouldn't have 737 00:42:24,020 --> 00:42:26,820 to want to change things in order to use a new raw material. 738 00:42:26,820 --> 00:42:30,580 I also knew that it had to be at least 10 to 20% less expensive 739 00:42:30,580 --> 00:42:33,100 than the existing raw materials. And that's just to get people's 740 00:42:33,100 --> 00:42:35,380 attention. And then there's a process of, 741 00:42:35,380 --> 00:42:38,580 you know, testing it. Is it going to perform as well 742 00:42:38,580 --> 00:42:41,220 or outperform in cases we do outperform would. 743 00:42:41,650 --> 00:42:44,370 And that but nonetheless the product looks the same. 744 00:42:44,370 --> 00:42:46,690 So no one's freaking out like Oh my gosh why is that all lumpy 745 00:42:46,690 --> 00:42:50,010 now and and not smooth like I used to used to see it. 746 00:42:50,610 --> 00:42:54,450 So, you know, they're, I think people are willing to do things 747 00:42:54,450 --> 00:42:57,090 like even, you know, bring their own bags to the grocery store 748 00:42:57,410 --> 00:43:00,570 for the greater good and hopefully not poison themselves. 749 00:43:01,010 --> 00:43:04,170 But they're when you look at it again, you have to go back to 750 00:43:04,170 --> 00:43:07,290 the economics as much as I'd like this to be Ross, about 751 00:43:07,570 --> 00:43:10,920 strictly about impact. We really have to go back and 752 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,080 look at the economics of introducing a new raw material 753 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,400 or bio based materials are changing things in our economy 754 00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:22,320 for the better and how can we make the economics work. 755 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,920 So that's was my focus with Hex's was the economics 756 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,960 associated with it and then then the impact and benefits we 757 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,960 otherwise could have. I think people are willing to 758 00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:36,120 try something new as long as they don't necessarily have to 759 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,800 pay that much more for it, or any more for it at all. 760 00:43:39,410 --> 00:43:41,170 But you know, we're working B to B. 761 00:43:41,170 --> 00:43:42,730 We're not working with the consumers. 762 00:43:43,490 --> 00:43:46,970 And so consumers may be willing to pay a little bit more to 763 00:43:46,970 --> 00:43:50,450 offset their carbon and so forth, but the businesses 764 00:43:50,490 --> 00:43:55,530 otherwise have to pass that cost along to their consumers and 765 00:43:55,530 --> 00:43:58,090 that's something that they try to avoid. 766 00:43:59,610 --> 00:44:01,730 Tell me more about that part of your business. 767 00:44:01,970 --> 00:44:05,930 Cost reduction is necessary to get their attention just in 768 00:44:05,930 --> 00:44:09,210 order to consider the cognitive load of considering a new input, 769 00:44:11,130 --> 00:44:12,690 yes. So it's the. 770 00:44:12,690 --> 00:44:17,970 Cost reduction, ease of use and then then you add on the 771 00:44:17,970 --> 00:44:20,970 requirements for like scope one and two and three in terms of 772 00:44:20,970 --> 00:44:26,490 the supply chain and the ESG applications. 773 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,360 That was never so that was important to me. 774 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,800 But you know when you talk to the people who make the 775 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,760 decisions about integrating new raw materials into their their 776 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,040 existing existing products or making a new product, they 777 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:45,240 really are focused on, is the material consistent, Does it 778 00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:48,640 work within our system? Can you deliver it day after day 779 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,300 after day after day? So they're very straightforward, 780 00:44:52,300 --> 00:44:54,580 simple considerations, but absolutely necessary. 781 00:44:54,900 --> 00:44:59,060 Then also to support that side of innovation that says, hey, we 782 00:44:59,060 --> 00:45:02,820 really want to reduce our missions, scope 1-2 and three, 783 00:45:02,820 --> 00:45:04,100 we really want to get those down. 784 00:45:04,620 --> 00:45:07,180 How can we do this so the procurement people get pushed by 785 00:45:07,180 --> 00:45:08,860 the innovation people and vice versa. 786 00:45:09,300 --> 00:45:13,380 And knowing that that battle was going to happen before I even 787 00:45:13,420 --> 00:45:15,220 really started any commercialization or getting 788 00:45:15,220 --> 00:45:20,060 into this, I knew that whatever I developed had to meet those. 789 00:45:20,540 --> 00:45:26,020 Those parallel needs so. It seems like it's probably just 790 00:45:26,020 --> 00:45:29,420 easier to to sell as well if you're offering potential 791 00:45:29,740 --> 00:45:34,220 performance upgrades, cost savings and then the ability to 792 00:45:34,220 --> 00:45:37,180 work with the procurement people and say, well, we've actually 793 00:45:37,180 --> 00:45:40,100 cut emissions by this amount or we have these other benefits 794 00:45:40,100 --> 00:45:43,140 that we're providing as a result of our choices here. 795 00:45:43,540 --> 00:45:46,490 That seems like a much easier sale to make then hey, it's 796 00:45:46,490 --> 00:45:48,930 going to cost you more money. It's not going to perform as 797 00:45:48,930 --> 00:45:50,810 well. You get to brag about it a 798 00:45:50,810 --> 00:45:52,930 little bit, but there's no regulation forcing you to do 799 00:45:52,930 --> 00:45:55,010 this, so it's not super relevant. 800 00:45:55,530 --> 00:45:57,770 That seems tough, right? Well. 801 00:45:57,770 --> 00:45:59,210 It's it's it's threading a needle. 802 00:45:59,210 --> 00:46:01,930 It really is threading a needle being able to hit all of those 803 00:46:01,930 --> 00:46:04,010 points. And I, you know, when I started 804 00:46:04,010 --> 00:46:05,410 this, I wasn't sure we were going to do that. 805 00:46:05,410 --> 00:46:08,090 I didn't know if this would have to become sort of a specialty 806 00:46:08,090 --> 00:46:12,090 fiber, right, for for higher margin applications and so 807 00:46:12,090 --> 00:46:13,770 forth. But I think we've worked it out 808 00:46:13,770 --> 00:46:16,530 now to be able to thread that needle given the testing and the 809 00:46:16,530 --> 00:46:18,610 work that we're doing with existing customers and the 810 00:46:18,610 --> 00:46:21,930 piloting we're doing and testing in a lot of different 811 00:46:21,930 --> 00:46:23,490 applications. And the grant work that we're 812 00:46:23,490 --> 00:46:28,130 doing too is really supporting figuring those things out in 813 00:46:29,250 --> 00:46:32,730 specific applications, especially in the energy side. 814 00:46:33,130 --> 00:46:36,770 Is HEXUS gonna pursue a licensing model or grow it and 815 00:46:36,770 --> 00:46:38,450 sell it yourself? Something else? 816 00:46:39,810 --> 00:46:41,250 That's a really good. Question so. 817 00:46:41,690 --> 00:46:47,730 In order to implement and perfect the template that I've 818 00:46:47,730 --> 00:46:50,970 developed, which I call our farm to fiber platform that runs from 819 00:46:50,970 --> 00:46:54,690 propagation through processing and the final product, we are 820 00:46:54,690 --> 00:46:56,650 doing it ourselves up front for a little while. 821 00:46:56,650 --> 00:47:00,650 And then once we have that template in place and the kinks 822 00:47:00,650 --> 00:47:05,010 worked out, so to speak and we can sign supply agreements that 823 00:47:05,010 --> 00:47:07,090 are just modular and can actually stand alone as our own 824 00:47:07,090 --> 00:47:10,170 little businesses, then we'll be able to. 825 00:47:10,670 --> 00:47:16,950 License to companies that have the acumen to follow that 826 00:47:16,950 --> 00:47:19,110 template and be successful at it. 827 00:47:19,110 --> 00:47:22,550 So, yeah, so licensing certainly is, is part and parcel of what 828 00:47:22,550 --> 00:47:25,550 we'll do not immediately, but once we get all the kinks worked 829 00:47:25,550 --> 00:47:28,630 out, certainly we can license and then see more of that 830 00:47:28,630 --> 00:47:32,190 exponential growth, that growth that we expect into many 831 00:47:32,190 --> 00:47:36,480 different industries. When can we expect to see see 832 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,200 more of this? Seems like you're in a grant 833 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,560 writing, slash grant consuming phase and you're trying to 834 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,240 commercialize. And when might someone be able 835 00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:47,760 to buy something that has Hex's biomass involved? 836 00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:55,360 I would like to. Say by middle of 2025. 837 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,720 That's pretty close. That's not, that's not that far 838 00:47:57,720 --> 00:47:57,920 off. Yeah. 839 00:47:57,960 --> 00:47:59,360 Well, no. Well, we. 840 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,040 You know, we have to work on the agricultural cycle. 841 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,320 So that's one of the things that people that need to integrate 842 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,080 into their sort of mental systems is that this is an 843 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,320 agricultural product. It has to grow 1st and then we 844 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:11,400 cut it down, but then we can grow it and cut it down every 845 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,000 year after that. So, yeah, wow. 846 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,520 Well, that's great. Are you able to tell us anything 847 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,040 else about what we can expect in the next little bit of time for 848 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,960 you, or are your lips sealed on what's going on? 849 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:25,720 Well, we've. Got sort of a bigger. 850 00:48:26,050 --> 00:48:29,330 Partnership announcement coming out in October, which I can't 851 00:48:29,330 --> 00:48:31,570 talk about just yet, but that that's coming out. 852 00:48:31,890 --> 00:48:34,850 We are going to continue to you know apply for grants, but I 853 00:48:34,850 --> 00:48:37,730 continue to work towards that level of commercialization. 854 00:48:38,130 --> 00:48:40,530 We are raising our round right now. 855 00:48:40,530 --> 00:48:45,290 So I hope to get that all closed up in less than a month and then 856 00:48:45,290 --> 00:48:48,130 have a big announcement about that and who those players are 857 00:48:48,130 --> 00:48:52,130 that will have be supporting HEXUS going forward so that we 858 00:48:52,130 --> 00:48:55,190 can really. Make tremendous progress and 859 00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:58,830 have a genuine impact, which is my ultimate goal, to have a 860 00:48:58,830 --> 00:49:01,790 genuine impact for my children and all the other children out 861 00:49:01,790 --> 00:49:04,310 there and their children. So that we can move away from 862 00:49:04,310 --> 00:49:09,790 these fossil fuel based materials and also minimize, if 863 00:49:09,790 --> 00:49:15,590 we can, the use of forest for building and other applications. 864 00:49:17,030 --> 00:49:22,110 Are you planning on trying to create and market carbon removal 865 00:49:22,110 --> 00:49:24,950 credits yourself, or would you like to pass those on as a 866 00:49:24,990 --> 00:49:29,110 benefit to purchasers of Hex's biomass so that they can claim 867 00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:31,630 that carbon removal from within their value chain? 868 00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:36,670 So that will be negotiated. With each customer as to how 869 00:49:36,670 --> 00:49:39,990 they would like to work with us on that. 870 00:49:39,990 --> 00:49:43,790 So we have one customer that just wants to retire those is 871 00:49:43,790 --> 00:49:46,750 not interested in using them themselves or us. 872 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,680 Selling them independently on the on the market. 873 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,720 So it will, yeah it's some, some are very interested in it and 874 00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:57,800 utilizing it internally. Some are like well you know 875 00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,880 that's it's a great selling point for us. 876 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,680 We're not necessarily you, you want to, you know, retire those 877 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,560 and then others are like, no, you guys go ahead and you know, 878 00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,600 we just want to you do your thing, we'll do our thing, you 879 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,880 do your thing, and that's not part of the equation. 880 00:50:14,190 --> 00:50:15,630 Well, thanks for being here, Wendy. 881 00:50:15,670 --> 00:50:18,150 Thanks for having me down Olympia as well. 882 00:50:18,630 --> 00:50:21,030 I really like what you're doing. Thanks for entertaining all of 883 00:50:21,030 --> 00:50:24,270 my questions, some of which were, you know, right over the 884 00:50:24,270 --> 00:50:26,630 plate, some of which were pretty zany. 885 00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:29,270 Let's be real. But I'm a fan of what you're 886 00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:31,390 doing. I really wish you enormous 887 00:50:31,390 --> 00:50:33,110 success. I think it's really important if 888 00:50:33,110 --> 00:50:35,590 we can make better straws. And I'm just kidding. 889 00:50:35,630 --> 00:50:39,030 I really think is really important if we can swap out 890 00:50:39,030 --> 00:50:42,470 some of these inefficient raw material sources for something 891 00:50:42,470 --> 00:50:45,550 that's a bit more ecologically thought through. 892 00:50:47,630 --> 00:50:49,190 But it is my pleasure, and again I. 893 00:50:49,190 --> 00:50:51,110 Really appreciate taking the time to come down and visit the 894 00:50:51,110 --> 00:50:55,550 lab and the research farm. And thank you again for the 895 00:50:55,550 --> 00:50:57,350 opportunity to be on this podcast. 896 00:50:57,750 --> 00:50:58,990 It's pretty cool to have a repeat. 897 00:50:59,230 --> 00:51:02,870 I like that. Thank you so much for listening. 898 00:51:02,910 --> 00:51:05,110 If you could please subscribe and give us a great rating and 899 00:51:05,110 --> 00:51:08,030 review on Apple Podcast or a rating on Spotify, that'd be 900 00:51:08,030 --> 00:51:10,360 much appreciated. It helps us get our content out 901 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,200 to more people. You can sign up for our 902 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,280 newsletter at nori.com, follow us on social media, and we will 903 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:16,200 catch you next time.