1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,760 Hello, this is your host, Ross Kenyon. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,680 I'm doing something that I have not done before. 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,960 I feel like I did a long time ago, but it's been a while. 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,440 But in trying to make this show financially sustainable, I was 5 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:13,960 able to pick up a couple of sponsors. 6 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,320 It would do me a great favor if you could please listen and 7 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,360 learn more about each of them since they offer something to 8 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,160 different parts of our audience that I think you will care about 9 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,680 These two sponsors and thank you from the bottom of my heart for 10 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:28,920 becoming sponsors are off stream. 11 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,240 And our bionics, our Bionics is a project developer. 12 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,720 They're the ones that are actually pulling carbon dioxide 13 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,120 out of the atmosphere and storing it and they are doing it 14 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,240 through trees. You know, trees have had a 15 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:43,880 difficult time within carbon removal. 16 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,200 You should go listen to the show that I did with with Lizette 17 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,320 Louis from our Bionics. We did a show probably about six 18 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,920 weeks or 8 weeks ago and we talked about how the trajectory 19 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,600 of trees, Afro station reforestation within carbon 20 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,440 removal has played out, how that impacts whether we are storing 21 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,560 biological material and anoxic environments for carbon removal 22 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,720 purposes alone. Arbonics is doing something a 23 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,160 little bit differently. Europe has over 14,000,000 24 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,400 hectares of underused land, which, you know, abandoned 25 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,120 farmland. It's low quality pasture. 26 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,120 Not a lot is happening there. A lot of it once was forced. 27 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,880 It was cleared a long time ago for farming, but the global food 28 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,520 supply and better yields elsewhere has meant that a lot 29 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,880 of this land is just underutilized and we haven't 30 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:29,360 quite figured out what to do with it yet. 31 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,920 So our bonnets uses technology to help land owners find this 32 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,320 land and then restore it back into carbon, removing biodiverse 33 00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:38,000 forest. And that last point is really 34 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,480 important because a lot of forestry that takes place is a 35 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:45,040 monoculture, which is maybe solving one problem, but it's 36 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,480 not solving the overall Poly crisis, ecological crisis. 37 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,840 So our bionics pursues that way of going to market in order to 38 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,120 offer corporates high quality data backed European carbon 39 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,440 removal credits, helping companies reach their 40 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,000 sustainability goals with maximum trust. 41 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,640 So goals of that conversation with Lizette. 42 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,680 I'll put a link in the show notes if you want some more. 43 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,840 And if you're thinking about this in terms of a cycle here, 44 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,640 Off Stream would be a service provider to our Bionics. 45 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:16,080 Off Stream is there to make carbon compliance simple for 46 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,600 project developers. If you're listening, if you work 47 00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:22,400 at a carbon removal company or company producing other types of 48 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,720 carbon assets, the data portion of this is super challenging. 49 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,120 If you're listening and you haven't had to read through a 50 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,600 methodology or any registry documentation, you'll probably 51 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,280 live longer than the rest of us who have. 52 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,240 It's non trivial. It's difficult, and that's not 53 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:37,720 to say that it shouldn't be difficult. 54 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,560 Much of this should be. So we make sure that quality is 55 00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:44,000 actually taking place when carbon is removed or avoided or 56 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,640 anything like that. And Off Stream exists to make it 57 00:02:48,640 --> 00:02:52,040 easier for product developers to not get stuck on the level of 58 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,520 data. Barsha Ramesh Walsh, Off Stream 59 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,760 CEO, She likens their platform to being Agps For your carbon 60 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,320 credit and your MRP plans. It's guiding you through the 61 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,360 jungle of certifications and compliance. 62 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,240 Oh, I love that. That's such a fun, visual way of 63 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,960 putting it. This is a world where you can 64 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,560 develop and iterate on your project. 65 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,760 LC as in minutes, not weeks. Where you can focus on doing the 66 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,000 important work of growing your business, scaling carbon 67 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,360 removal, generating more credits without having to necessarily 68 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,480 hire more employees. This is really an important time 69 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,920 in carbon removal where minimizing headcount may be 70 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:34,040 necessary for a number of companies to stay alive and keep 71 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,360 going. And Off Stream is here to help 72 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,240 you do that. They're here to help you with 73 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,280 your LCA needs. If you're listening, you're a 74 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,160 project developer, you know one and they are having persistent 75 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:49,160 migraines for paperwork like go over to use off stream.com. 76 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,160 Tell them that Off Stream can help them handle the quote UN 77 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,720 quote boring bits while they can focus on saving the planet off 78 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,200 stream because paperwork shouldn't be a full time job. 79 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,440 Crack me up. Thank you Off Stream and our 80 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,720 bonics for sponsoring Reversing Climate Change. 81 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,760 I'm really appreciative that you're able to help me do this. 82 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,320 It means a lot. If you're listening to this and 83 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,760 you'd like to sponsor Reversing Climate Change, feel free to 84 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,800 send me an e-mail. I'll put the e-mail in the show 85 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,120 notes too. And let's talk. 86 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:24,640 And OK, now I'm going into the show proper, the intro. 87 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:26,960 Here it is, and thank you again for listening. 88 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:40,520 By way of a brief intro, this is a Co released podcast with my 89 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:45,880 old friend Heidi Lim Heidi is an amazing tik toker and she is 90 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,080 starting a new YouTube and TikTok channel doing a lot more 91 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,480 long form content interviews. I've been trying to encourage 92 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,160 Heidi for a long time to do this. 93 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,440 I really love the way that she does her work. 94 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,200 I think she's such an important climate communicator in carbon 95 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:02,880 removal. Public intellectual. 96 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,720 I hope you will support Heidi's work. 97 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,120 Links to follow her work on all the various platforms will be in 98 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,160 the show notes below. Here's our first conversation. 99 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,160 I end up getting pretty vulnerable. 100 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,920 Talk a lot about the spiritual nature of climate work and how 101 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,640 how bizarre the world is and how we fit into it and it gets 102 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,920 pretty real. And I think that's a good 103 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,720 illustration of maybe where Heidi's creativity will go in 104 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,640 her climate communications work. So please support her. 105 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,200 Thanks for listening. If you like this show and want 106 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,440 to be a subscriber for AD free listening and bonus content, 107 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,080 it's 5 bucks a month. Link is also in the show notes 108 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,280 if you're not quite ready to do that yet. 109 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,200 Totally OK. Please give Reversing Climate 110 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,440 Change a five star rating in iTunes, Apple podcast, Spotify, 111 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:55,200 some other app that you use. And thank you again, Heidi, for 112 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,600 being here. I hope everyone goes and 113 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,480 supports your work too. And here is your show. 114 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:29,880 Oh hey, welcome to our first long form video. 115 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,040 As someone who's been working in the climate space for many 116 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,160 years, over that time I've developed sort of a thesis 117 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:44,640 about, uh, why climate media is flawed and why I think there's, 118 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,800 there aren't that many climate influencers out there. 119 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:55,320 And I guess I'm setting out to try to fill in some gaps I feel 120 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,120 like exist. One of the things I'm seeing is 121 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,320 that there's sort of this wall between everyday people who are 122 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,400 feeling a lot of despair about climate change and the city of 123 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,520 the world who feel like nothing is being done about climate 124 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:10,120 change. And then the other side of the 125 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:11,760 wall is someone who's in the industry. 126 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,640 I see a lot of really good progress being made and, you 127 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,440 know, thousands of people who are doing some really awesome 128 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,840 work every single day to work towards those climate goals, 129 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,080 even in a difficult environment that we're in right now. 130 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,680 And I feel like because of that wall, there is so much room for 131 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,440 despair. I've been wanting to create a 132 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,280 platform where I can help people see past that wall and the 133 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,080 people on the industry side, people who are working on 134 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,760 climate who may not have the time or interest to create a 135 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,240 YouTube platform or create a TikTok platform would be able to 136 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,880 like use the platform that I'm making so that you can hear 137 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,240 those voices and hear what cool stuff is happening and in a way 138 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,040 that's accessible to everyone and feels humanizing. 139 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,160 Like I, I would love for you to feel like you have these climate 140 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:11,120 friends who you can turn to and enjoy listening to and like 141 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,360 getting to know. Today is my first episode of the 142 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,200 series, talking with my friend Ross Kenyon, who is someone who 143 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,080 has been an ally to me on my own personal climate journey, 144 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,680 someone who's a creative in the space who's been podcasting the 145 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,800 Reversing Climate Change podcast for many years. 146 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,600 I've been a guest on it, but I also started out listening to 147 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:40,120 this podcast on on my walks from the boss stuff to my job before 148 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,240 I worked on climate. Something I always like to 149 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,360 advise people about is if you're thinking about making a career 150 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:50,960 pivot, take the first step. Create ways to passively learn 151 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:55,160 or passively start dipping your toe into the next field. 152 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:00,760 And one of those ways is to just subscribe to a podcast or 153 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,840 subscribe to content creators who are doing stuff in the field 154 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,480 that you're interested in. For me, in 2018, when I was 155 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,400 switching from working in software to moving into climate 156 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,640 work, I was just listening religiously to the Reversing 157 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,840 Climate Change podcast. I hope you like this format. 158 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,680 Let me know what you think. And thanks for spending time 159 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:25,120 with me and Ross today. All right, Ross, thank you for 160 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:31,160 being my first, my first guest. Ross Kenyon, I think we first 161 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:38,840 met because I reached out to you when I was looking for my first 162 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:40,080 climate role. Is that right? 163 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,520 It was either you or Paul. I was like, I'm going to just 164 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:43,920 try. I'm just trying to reach out to 165 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,160 you on LinkedIn. I think it was me and maybe 166 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,240 reach out to both of us, but it was definitely at least me 167 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,520 because I remember speaking to you several years ago. 168 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,560 That's funny though. In my memory though, your your 169 00:09:54,560 --> 00:09:59,440 famous carbon removal essay in my mind predates my involvement 170 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,080 in carbon removal. But maybe that's not actually 171 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:02,000 what happened. Is that? 172 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,280 Is this like a Rashomon kind of thing right now? 173 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:07,720 I definitely, definitely met you before. 174 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,760 Before the, yeah, before that piece came out. 175 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,720 Well, the reason I'm bringing on Ross is you as my first guest is 176 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:19,000 you or somebody who I feel like I embodies like what working in 177 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,280 climate looks like. You're a person who is just 178 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,280 really open to genuinely helping people get into the space and 179 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,920 helping people to learn about like what kinds of things they 180 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,200 can do to help in carbon removal specifically. 181 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,920 But I think broadly all things climate and you're really 182 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,120 dedicated to building community around you and like you're 183 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,080 really genuine. You helped me and I know you've 184 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,160 been pushing me to pursue my own creative endeavour. 185 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:52,200 So yeah, I guess my thoughts on this show is like, I want, I 186 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:57,280 want to have to make people feel like they have a climate friend, 187 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,800 but not be beyond that to like have many climate friends. 188 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,200 And and that includes people that, you know, I'm talking to 189 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,760 who have made my experience working in climate so special. 190 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,520 And you know, beyond the career stuff or whatever, Like I think 191 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:16,400 the people aspect of of working climate is the reason why we can 192 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,160 keep each other going, even though we are continuing to face 193 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,240 really challenging odds in many, in many ways. 194 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,880 So yeah, that's that's kind of why I was thinking, yeah, Ross 195 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,800 would be a perfect person for for my audience to hear from and 196 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,960 appreciate you. And of course, you're also a a 197 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:40,160 founder, an entrepreneur. You worked on soil health, you 198 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,080 worked on Mark different carbon markets. 199 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,960 I'm honored. And you're a media guy, which 200 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:49,480 I'm trying to be a media guy myself. 201 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,880 You are you you've been doing this for so long successful Tik 202 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:55,560 Toker. I'm sure the trajectory will 203 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:59,600 continue that direction too. No, I'm, I'm really honored to 204 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,360 be first here and thanks for, you know, make me blush a little 205 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,120 bit. I really do care about that kind 206 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,560 of showing up a lot. I think LinkedIn has a strong 207 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,480 performative culture. It's very self-serving. 208 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:22,560 And so much of 1's career life, there's an attitude of how do I 209 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:25,880 get ahead. And one of the lines I always 210 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,560 liked, it was always said very cynically. 211 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:29,960 And you can read it in a very cynical way, but you can also 212 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,560 read it in a beautiful way. It's from Hollywood. 213 00:12:32,560 --> 00:12:35,480 It sounds like something like maybe Betty White would have 214 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,960 said or something. It's something like the people 215 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,640 you see on the no, the people you meet on the way up are the 216 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,160 same ones you see on the way down. 217 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:48,760 And it's true, I think, like you want people to remember that you 218 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,400 were kind to them when you didn't have a reason to. 219 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,280 You took a meeting that you didn't have to, and you helped 220 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,640 more than you took. And I do. 221 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,240 When I die, I want to be remembered that way. 222 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,120 I want people to say, like, wow, Ross had no reason to take that 223 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,440 call. He he was someone that I had 224 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,840 nothing to offer. And he's still, like, took it. 225 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,120 And I want to be like, yeah, there's a pathological version 226 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,760 of that, which is like, people pleasing. 227 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,600 And my time is unvalued by myself. 228 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,680 And I give it away all for free. I hope I'm not doing that. 229 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:19,880 I don't think I'm doing that. But I like helping people. 230 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,400 That's what I like to do. I feel that. 231 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,920 I hope that our the audience here today gets to feel that 232 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,760 from you as well. And I also feel like you're not 233 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,040 necessarily an anomaly too. Like a lot of really. 234 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,160 Yeah, generous people were able to do were doing that for me 235 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,160 when I was looking for my climate job and continue to. 236 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:39,800 And then, you know, they really pay it forward. 237 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,240 So I feel like it's just it's kind of cultural. 238 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,120 Yeah, did you 'cause you, you had your people came out of the 239 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,400 woodwork after your how to switch into climate or carbon 240 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:51,680 removal piece came out? Yeah. 241 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,320 And I think I remember talking to you and you were just like, 242 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,600 yeah, my calendar just booked with people who want, I'm just 243 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,360 giving them like free consulting on that. 244 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:00,880 Is that, am I remembering that right? 245 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,040 Is that right? That's why I wrote the piece 246 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,400 about switching into climate work, because it. 247 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,280 Went that way. Yeah, it was, it was, it was to 248 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:13,400 help make make my calendar a little bit less full. 249 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,320 But then it ended up having the opposite effect because then 250 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,800 more people just knew about it. So, yeah, and, and and I guess 251 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,000 it's like this is an extension of that, which is like, I just 252 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,120 cannot take those calls. And I'm trying to think about 253 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,520 how can I like, what's the force multiplier of my impact and 254 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,680 media is it for me? That's my thesis at least, yeah. 255 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,240 I think it's a good thesis. You already have good positive 256 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,040 proof points for it too. It doesn't seem like some 257 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,200 delusional aspiration here. It seems pretty well grounded by 258 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,240 your long term passion for short form video content now. 259 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,280 Longer form medium form video content. 260 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,880 OK, well, I, I guess I, I was thinking of this conversation in 261 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:58,000 a few parts and the first part was I guess just to talk about 262 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,800 like the people who do climate work, because you are probably 263 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,840 have the largest Rolodex of anyone in climate work unless 264 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,360 you're yeah, you it's really, you have very impressive 265 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:10,600 Rolodex. Like how many episodes are you 266 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,880 into the podcast? I mean, just reversing climate 267 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:21,280 change is like 300, maybe close to 400 if you're counting the 268 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,920 unnumbered bonus episodes too. I think carbon removal 269 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,600 newsrooms, like another hundred of those, but I didn't host all 270 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,200 of those. But yeah, so oh. 271 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,720 My gosh, yeah. Oh yeah, 'cause sometimes 272 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,000 there's like multiple people on at once. 273 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,760 OK, So that the people of climate work is sort of my first 274 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,040 bucket that I think would be a good area to dive into together. 275 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,760 And then the second thing about I want to talk about the state 276 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:50,120 of climate media because I feel like part of what I'm doing is 277 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,440 trying to add to the climate media conversation because I 278 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,680 feel like it's quite it's flawed in a lot of ways. 279 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,360 It's, you know, an uphill battle in many ways. 280 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,880 And since you've been in this world for so long, I think it'd 281 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,720 be fun to to chat about that. OK, Well, I guess my first 282 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,360 question is kind of related to both of them, which is I, I feel 283 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:15,400 like you are the rare instance of somebody who wanted to work 284 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,960 on climate change, but you had this idea very early on to make 285 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,960 a podcast And there aren't many. I feel like there aren't as many 286 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:28,840 climate focused or like even clean tech focus podcasts as you 287 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,520 would think based on how immense the problem is. 288 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:37,960 And very early, very early on in your founding days of Nori, you 289 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,240 guys figured out, OK, we're going to do a podcast where we 290 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,640 talk to other, other folks doing this work. 291 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,480 Like how did that happen? Why? 292 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,280 Why did you do that? It was my Co founder Paul 293 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,640 Gamble's idea. Originally we did it in the 294 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:58,440 hackathon but Paul always had a really powerful content forward 295 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,280 approach and I certainly thought that as well. 296 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:08,240 But that's a harder thing to convince the CEO of that maybe 297 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,000 doesn't believe that. So it was nice that Paul was 298 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,680 always been a big supporter of creative media and we needed 299 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,720 that at Nori too. We were so early in carbon 300 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,079 removal that there was no product for several years to 301 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,800 sell. So media for us and storytelling 302 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,359 was the product. And that led to a lot of good 303 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,920 things happening for Nori over years. 304 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:34,520 Those those gains of your share of public perception for carbon 305 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,880 removal companies. I think Dory was able to grab so 306 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,320 much of that just because that we were always having 307 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,400 conversations that were interesting and strange. 308 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,920 And a lot of people still to this point say, oh, I, I like 309 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,240 this was the first thing for carbon removal I got really into 310 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,320 and it really helped push me. And I hear those comments like a 311 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,640 couple times a year isn't like a huge amount, but it's enough for 312 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,600 if it changed the trajectory of someone's life, potentially, 313 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,440 maybe they would have gotten into carbon removal anyways. 314 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,680 I don't know. But this, this is nice. 315 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,320 It's nice to give them a nudge or make them curious or confirm 316 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,800 something that maybe they had an inkling that carbon removal was 317 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,640 going to be a thing and just push them over the edge there. 318 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,040 But so there's like really powerful, practical business 319 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,160 reasons for having done it, by which I mean there was no 320 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,960 product to sell except for this. And then also, there's certainly 321 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,920 a good idea by Paul and one that I was pretty well suited to 322 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,760 carry out. I think I was pretty well suited 323 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,040 to carry it out too, because I had come from formerly a very 324 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,920 ideologically driven political space where I was like very 325 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,320 black and white, very foundational in my orientation. 326 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,000 And I came out of grad school being pretty confused. 327 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,600 And so that put me in a really good spot to relate to lots of 328 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,960 people ask questions, meet them where they are. 329 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:53,040 And I think that isn't always that common of a intellectual 330 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:54,720 headspace to bring to podcasting. 331 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,160 So I think it kind of just all those things together just 332 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,960 worked out. Interesting. 333 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,040 Yeah. I mean, I personally was 334 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,200 listening to the Reversing Climate Change podcast when like 335 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,280 religiously every single, literally every single episode 336 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,640 through my job search. I hope there's a lot more people 337 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,520 who continue to to get a lot out of your conversations on that 338 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,600 podcast. It's been super fun doing it 339 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,360 because it's almost eight years at this point, getting close to 340 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:21,800 8 years of doing reversing climate change. 341 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,560 And the competition has really stepped up to there's just so 342 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:31,000 many more specialized shows in climate and carbon removal. 343 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:34,560 And when reversing climate change started, it was, as far 344 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,520 as I know, I don't, I don't think there's anyone that can 345 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,640 challenge this, but maybe so, but I think it was the only 346 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,360 carbon removal podcast out there. 347 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,520 That's not true anymore. There, there are a lot and many 348 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,560 of them are very good too. Like I listened to several other 349 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,000 podcasts too, to, to make sure I'm rounding out the 350 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,680 perspectives. And some people are more policy 351 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,440 oriented, some are more like business or tech focused. 352 00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:56,840 And I try to just bring all that in there. 353 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,200 But I don't know my my advice to you that I've learned after 354 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,680 eight years. Unsolicited advice, I might add. 355 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,640 Just just do whatever you do. That's exactly you. 356 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,400 I no longer make any apologies for the weird shows that I 357 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,880 program. Some of them are like barely 358 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,760 climate, barely carbon removal. Some of them I sneak through and 359 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,360 like, if you like the way that I talk about things or address 360 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:22,480 them, maybe you'll also be interested in this thing that's 361 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,720 adjacent, but not like directly climate. 362 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,480 I hope, and that's kind of like a bit of for better or for 363 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,760 worse, and I hope for better for the right kind of person who 364 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,600 likes me personally. And if anyone who listens to you 365 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,560 past or you're you're Youtubing tik toking like they're there 366 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,560 because they like Heidi. They're not going to be there 367 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,360 for probably other reasons or they will grow to love you and 368 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:43,960 that's why they keep showing up over time. 369 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,240 So I don't know. A lot of people have like more 370 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,000 focused podcasts, though I watch some of them. 371 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,480 You're like, OK, like Cdr policy scoop. 372 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,800 No one's going to mistake the kinds of shows that they're 373 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,480 making like it's it is, it is exactly what is on the tin and 374 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,920 that's cool. My show is not what is on the 375 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:02,800 tin. Sometimes there's there's things 376 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,720 where people are like, what the hell is this show? 377 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,160 There's a show on the occult. You put out a Halloween show on 378 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,520 the occult. Yes, I did do that. 379 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:14,040 That's something that I did. Yeah, I this is this is what I 380 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,920 feel like is a an issue with climate media is like you things 381 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,120 are too specialized and, and I'm trying I mean, I on my platform, 382 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:26,080 I'm talking about, you know, the brain drain into big tech. 383 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,880 I'm talking about, you know, I'm very anti AI, very anti tech 384 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,400 bro. I talked about like, why are we 385 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,680 seeing attacks on science in general? 386 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,920 You know what? Why is there a decline in trust 387 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,280 in science in America? Like those are topics that I'm 388 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,640 going into cause yeah, I do feel that we, we very much sort of 389 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,640 kneecap our our audience because it's a very self selecting group 390 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,360 of people who want to watch or listen to climate specific 391 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:55,480 media. Like I myself am. 392 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,440 Unfortunately, I don't even consume climate media because 393 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:05,960 I'm just not interested a lot of times like, and so I, I kind of, 394 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,200 but that kind of helps me to like figure out why, like what, 395 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,520 what, what is the gap here? And like what, what, what would 396 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,280 a YouTube channel look like where I actually want to watch 397 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:17,920 it? And it helps me to stay up to 398 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,600 date with the climate. And that's what I'm trying to. 399 00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:21,640 That's what I'm trying to create, I guess. 400 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,520 I think if you want something and you can't find it, whether 401 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,600 or not that's media related or not, it's a, you know, if you 402 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,360 feel like you are the right person to make that, that's a 403 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:33,960 pretty good indicator that if you feel that way, likely other 404 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,920 people do too. And it's worth exploring and 405 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,600 just seeing. Is there any for this thing? 406 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,200 So I think I think you are correct in how you're 407 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:41,880 approaching this. There are many shows that I 408 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,400 don't listen to or just I'm just like, ah, just, you know, like I 409 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,400 would rather listen to something that's fun or listen to a book 410 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,160 or just, you know, enjoy nature sounds outside without having 411 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,520 something in my ears right now. There's a lot of competition for 412 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,960 that. OK, since we're on, we, we kind 413 00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,960 of dove into the topic of climate media. 414 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:04,160 We can stay here. What is the state of climate 415 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,680 media? As somebody who's been here for 416 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,760 a long time, I, I can tell you how I feel. 417 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,120 It is as an outsider. But you've been doing this for a 418 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:14,640 while. Yeah. 419 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:15,920 How, how? How is it going? 420 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,320 I'm very curious about your take. 421 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:24,480 I have this theory and I'm not sure if it's correct, but when I 422 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,600 noticed at some point many more carbon removal companies and 423 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,840 people started investing more in media and that struck me as a 424 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,760 sign of bad things where it's like, oh, shouldn't shouldn't 425 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,400 you be focused on selling your products? 426 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,920 Shouldn't you like, is now really the best time to be 427 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,640 investing in content? Because Nori came at it because 428 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,160 we didn't have anything to sell. So I just imagined that if that 429 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,840 model is correct, you weren't doing media because you ran out 430 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,880 of things to sell or selling is not going very well because 431 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,760 these are longer term investments in brand equity. 432 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,080 Starting any kind of podcast or any kind of account like this, 433 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,280 it often takes a while to build some momentum and companies 434 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,120 think it's easy. We're just going to record a 435 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:08,240 show with the CEO and such and such and it's going to result in 436 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,040 increased sales, talent acquisition and retention and 437 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,800 brand equity. And like you maybe have like 10s 438 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,480 of listens for a while, like the the slow build of the RSS feed 439 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,240 subscribership is it's a it's a grind. 440 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,960 So I don't know, I, I see so much content out there and I 441 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,840 wonder how much of it is because there's not more remunerative 442 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,160 ways to spend time. I don't know if that's true or 443 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,160 not. I have that thought sometimes, 444 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,520 though. It reminds me a little bit of 445 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,480 that scene in The Big Short where Steve Carell is like, 446 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,360 yeah, we're in a bubble. Yeah, short, short at all. 447 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,720 Yeah, it's all bullshit. You know, like I hope it's not 448 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,000 that. I really do, but I like that. 449 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,520 It just shows how much specialization there is too. 450 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,400 It's a little bit like if you're in a smaller town or a smaller 451 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,640 industry, I'm going to stick with a smaller town and there's 452 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,480 only a couple restaurants. You got like a Subway and a 453 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,520 Chili's or whatever. And you go to New York City and 454 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,080 you're like, it's 3:00 AM and I can get Bangladeshi food. 455 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,200 Like how is that possible with this much specialization in like 456 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,960 this area? Like it's, I think like as Cdr 457 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,480 just grows as an industry, like the show's become much more 458 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,040 specific and people are trying to find ways to experiment with 459 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,000 format to like what you're doing. 460 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,520 I think what, what Sebastian and Ava are doing right now with Cdr 461 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,720 policy scoop is very smart. There's a lot of stuff like that 462 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:24,960 that I'm watching. I'm like, cool. 463 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,400 It's innovation with form and format and not just content. 464 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,120 Whereas I'm very much like content driven and like maybe 465 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:34,520 I'll make video too, but I'm, I am always just like, what's the 466 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,160 what's like something weird that no one is talking about yet that 467 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,680 I'm like really interested in that I can connect. 468 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,400 To my. Professional life. 469 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,240 Jump in here. Yeah, sorry, I'm just rambling 470 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,200 about this. No, it's great. 471 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,560 I was just, I'm thinking of, do you know that podcast you're 472 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,360 wrong about? I love that podcast. 473 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:51,720 It's one of my favorites. No, I don't think I've listened. 474 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,560 To you have to. OK, well, if you like the 475 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,000 occult, you're gonna love this podcast. 476 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,320 They actually they talk way too much about Satanic panic, like 477 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,480 all the time. But each episode is like totally 478 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,200 different. It's just stuff in history that 479 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,480 we think we know that is just like they're actually like, what 480 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,080 actually is it like Brie Antoinette saying let them eat 481 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:13,840 cake. OK. 482 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:17,000 She actually said that when she was 11 and she was a child at 483 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,640 that point when she said it. It's not like when she was 484 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,320 queen. It's things are like misplaced 485 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,640 all the time. They did a long like, like a 486 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,840 very long series on Princess Diana. 487 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,360 They don't did a very long series on OJ Simpson in that 488 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:36,160 case, yeah, they and they yeah. So kind of panic is in there 489 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:37,520 sprinkled, sprinkled throughout. I. 490 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,440 Wanna listen to all these? Yeah, I. 491 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,480 Just Diana on. I'm very interested. 492 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,160 And they're a cozy podcast too, where like, they're just fun. 493 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,280 It doesn't stress me out. I guess that's that's one thing 494 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,160 is I yeah, I try to listen to media that doesn't stress me 495 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,200 out. I guess you were asking like my 496 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,880 thoughts on climate media as an outsider. 497 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,280 Yeah. Well, so I don't consider myself 498 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,160 a carbon removal specific content creator like I barely my 499 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,640 audience is not even there yet. Like I, I've made a couple of 500 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,840 things about carbon removal, but we haven't talked about that 501 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,080 basically at all, not yet. I will do like a longer deep 502 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,080 dive on carbon removal. Probably just take what I wrote 503 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,040 and put it in the video form. Cause I've done it in audio and 504 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,880 I'll do it in video. But yeah, we haven't gotten 505 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:31,120 there yet. And I, I feel like when, when I 506 00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:34,960 think of climate media, it's always either news, which is 507 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,160 again self selecting. It's for people who go and read 508 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,320 Canary media, go and read heat map news because they want, or 509 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,480 grist. I love grist because they, you 510 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,280 know, they are seeking that information out. 511 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,320 And then, of course, the only time people in average like a 512 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,600 regular person sees anything about climate, it's when it's 513 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:56,680 bad because the that's the, you know, few times that like CNN 514 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,000 or, you know, one of these like mainstream media outlets will 515 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,640 take will will say something about it is like bad stuff. 516 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,880 And then like in the industry side, I feel like these, you 517 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:12,600 know, smaller media outlets tend to be like really specific and 518 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,240 professional. It's not approachable to an 519 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,640 average person. It's like people who are talking 520 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,280 among themselves within an industry and they maybe are 521 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,720 using even jargon that an average person can't just jump 522 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,960 into because you have to have that prior knowledge. 523 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,360 Yeah. So I just think there's not 524 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:34,600 enough, enough of those like things on the periphery that's 525 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,800 going to grab just a, a, a random person. 526 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,640 And, and then the reason I'm focusing on TikTok is because 527 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,000 there's just, it's just a medium that like, I think professionals 528 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,640 who are in the industry haven't touched, like even you, you 529 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,080 know, you're, you're really in media. 530 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,400 But, you know, I, I, I was like, Ross, you have to please 531 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,960 download TikTok so you can experience it when we were, we 532 00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,760 were talking about it a couple years ago. 533 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,000 And and that's, you're not the only one, Like, and, and I'm 534 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,680 trying to bring the voices of the people in the industry to 535 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,760 that audience in an approachable way that they don't have to seek 536 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:11,560 it out. And hopefully. 537 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,880 Yeah, like, I want to be like Hank Green. 538 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,280 Like everyone loves Hank Green, but he talks about science and 539 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,720 but you don't care. He talks about he's just your 540 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,440 buddy. You know, he's like the person 541 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,720 that you trust. Yeah, he's a real world beater 542 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,680 too. Just like fluency with history 543 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,000 and literature and science. You're like, come on, man, you 544 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,880 can't be good at all this stuff. I always make fun of John 545 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,840 Sanchez for for that too. I'm like, come on, John, you 546 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,400 can't be good at all this stuff at the same time. 547 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,040 Yeah. But that's a good point, I 548 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,480 really should just just commit to doing it too. 549 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:48,200 Do the occult stuff. I did I did 1 show about how I 550 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:53,080 don't like the phrase Faustine bargain for for climate work, 551 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,280 especially for geoengineering, I've. 552 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:55,760 Never heard. I've never heard that. 553 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,160 You never heard someone say. Explain it. 554 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,480 Explain it to us. Because I don't think, yeah, 555 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:01,640 I've. I haven't even heard that. 556 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,480 Faustine bargain is is is a is a way of saying a deal with the 557 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,400 devil. So Faust makes a a deal with a 558 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:17,160 specific demon of some variety Mephistophiles, and it works out 559 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,200 for for Faust, though, like he it depends on the version of it. 560 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,320 So in the Christopher Marlowe version, he gets damned and he 561 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:26,880 he ends it all. But everyone always talks about 562 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,480 the Gurta version, which is the most famous one. 563 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,240 But on a technicality, he wins the deal and he gets he gets the 564 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,160 good stuff from the demon that offered him all of knowledge 565 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,280 essentially and doesn't have to go to hell for it. 566 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,480 So whenever people say that's a Fausty and bargain, I'm like, 567 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,320 but it worked out. So like, are you? 568 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,520 It's like when people say Epicurean to mean that someone 569 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,120 is a very rich eater and you're like Epicureans were were a 570 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,400 hedonist, but they thought that you would have more pleasure if 571 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,760 you didn't overindulge. So they actually you're using 572 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,680 the word wrong historically. So I'm basically a pet Ant is 573 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,440 what I'm trying to tell you. This yeah, that's the you're 574 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,320 wrong. You're wrong about that's that's 575 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,080 very You're wrong about of you. Is it then we just ended up 576 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,920 talking about, like, Ari Astra films and like, various aspects 577 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,960 of like, maybe a cult is so prominent in our culture these 578 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,560 days and it kind of just went from there. 579 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,680 But yeah, someone left a comment on one of the podcasting review 580 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,880 forms being like, this was this used to be like a climate show? 581 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,840 What, what, what happened to it? I'm like, we just put out a 582 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,680 Halloween show. Can't they have a little fun? 583 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,200 Like, what the hell? What's wrong with that? 584 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,480 Well, you know, you got to ignore the commenters because 585 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,960 people are always going to say something negative no matter 586 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,920 what you do. So yeah, that's my, those are my 587 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:37,360 thoughts on like climate media, sort of like where it is at the 588 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,640 moment and and why I'm trying to do something a little bit 589 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,600 different. But yeah, what do you think? 590 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,720 I know one of the things I do that's fun that we started at 591 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,360 Nori, but then I ended up continuing on after Nori wound 592 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,200 down last year, is the carbon removal memes account. 593 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,520 We always have a long debate about. 594 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,000 Not even a debate. It's a balance like because you 595 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,120 want to have some of these general memes that people 596 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,280 understand. You're like, oh, that's funny. 597 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,880 I don't even work in this space. And that's I that made me laugh. 598 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,320 And then some of them it's fun to do something that's so inside 599 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,840 baseball that you basically don't know unless you are full 600 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,840 time obsessed with card removal. And sometimes those shows like 601 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,080 the, I don't know if this is true either. 602 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,320 The part of the theory of the inside baseball memes that it's 603 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,800 a velvet rope. And if people see people lined 604 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,000 up outside of a club at night with the velvet rope, you're 605 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,200 like, oh, there must be something good in there if 606 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:28,360 they're willing to line up for it. 607 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,880 And I'm wondering if inside baseball memes has that sort of, 608 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,760 oh, I wish I could understand what was happening in this joke. 609 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,560 That's the theory. OK, yeah, totally. 610 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,800 And it's hard to know. Like maybe it probably does. 611 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,560 I'm sure there are people who are like, oh, OK, I wanna, I 612 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,960 wanna get on the inside of this. I don't know if it actually 613 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,040 works. So I don't know 'cause I mean, 614 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,600 reversing Climate Change is very much like this. 615 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,360 The other show that I I made and ran for a long time as sort of 616 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,360 like a executive producer kind of role when Nori was active as 617 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,080 Carbon Removal Newsroom. And that show was basically just 618 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,160 like copied Steven Lacy and Sugar Shaw and like energy gang 619 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,760 and political climate shows like that too were great format too. 620 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,840 But it was very much trying to do shows that we're about news 621 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,760 and like in like very much industry inside baseball in the 622 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,320 same way, like if you listen to A16Z, if you're not a venture 623 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,320 capitalist or an MBA, you're almost like, what are they even 624 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,800 saying this is like? Gibberish, but that's on 625 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,560 purpose, I think like they're VCs are elitist. 626 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,400 Like it's, I think it's, yeah, like. 627 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,480 The velvet rope, though, it made me want to be like, well, maybe 628 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,160 I should get that MBA because I don't know what the hell they're 629 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:35,640 talking about. How? 630 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,520 Totally, Yeah. But reversing climate change had 631 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,040 the benefit of being if you do anything for years, you get 632 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,360 bored of it and you just can't keep doing a show about, well, 633 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,400 what's your LCA like? And oh, carbon removal is having 634 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,440 difficulty scaling and what's, what are your unit costs? 635 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,760 And oh, is it solid sorbent or is it a liquid sorbent and blah, 636 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,720 blah, blah policy like that's super important And like you 637 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,280 have to know it to work in the space. 638 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,560 You're just not going to be that effective. 639 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,360 But I think it's important to just keep finding ways to be 640 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,360 creative because the only way that I have ever been able to 641 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,080 tell if anything that I make is good or not is if I am 642 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,000 entertained by it. There are shows that I will edit 643 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,000 and be like, I can't tell it wasn't that fun to make and it's 644 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,480 not that fun to listen back to and edit. 645 00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:20,800 And sometimes people will be like, I love that show. 646 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,040 I'm like, really, I don't even remember it because it was stick 647 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,520 with me. But you have to find ways where 648 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,199 people are the, the, the way that this works, I think, is if 649 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:33,520 anyone's going to listen to your content or engage with it over 650 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,239 time, it's one because maybe you caught their attention with the 651 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,679 first show and they stick around because they like you, 652 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,239 specifically you as a person. And then if they like you by the 653 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,159 transit of property, they will like things that interest you 654 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:47,920 that you keep making on your own. 655 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,960 And that's what reversing climate change is too. 656 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,320 Where there are shows where, I mean, one of my favorite shows 657 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,360 that I've done is with Carl Marlantis. 658 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,440 Do you know who he is? Did you watch the Ken Burns 659 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,560 Vietnam War? Ken Burns Lynn Novick Vietnam 660 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:02,400 War Series? No. 661 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,840 You have the most extensive library of Yeah, no, I I haven't 662 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,840 seen that it's. So good, it's so well made. 663 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,560 But he's one of the main soldiers that he interviews. 664 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:14,600 But. Oh wow. 665 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,520 Carl Carl wrote several amazing books about his experience in 666 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,160 Vietnam, and I've learned a lot from him, but I was somehow able 667 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,320 to cajole him into appearing on the show. 668 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,400 I'm like, for better or for worse. 669 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,960 Again, no one else in climate would have tracked Carl 670 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,400 Marlantis down and had him do a show on a climate podcast. 671 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,400 I'm so proud of that. And I'm not sure if everyone 672 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:39,320 liked it. I might. 673 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,080 I'm not even, I don't even know because you don't know a lot of 674 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,520 the time. But I liked it. 675 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,760 I'm really glad I got to do it. And that's the only way I can 676 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,960 tell if it's quality work and it's general. 677 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,320 Maybe someone will be like searching for Carl Moore Lantis 678 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,640 in their podcast and now finds their way to me. 679 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,720 I hope so, but whatever I'm like, at least I'm like trying 680 00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:58,600 to entertain myself and people can come along for the ride and 681 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,800 if they love it, cool, and if not, then they're just maybe not 682 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,200 the natural customer of my intellect and that's OK too. 683 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:10,200 I'm not I'm not necessarily I'm not necessarily a non niche 684 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,680 taste. You know, I'm not like chocolate 685 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,720 ice cream. I think I'm like some Neapolitan 686 00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,720 freak me so like. Neapolitan. 687 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,320 You must be something like, I don't know, macadamia nut is 688 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,800 that one That's like maybe Contra mustachio. 689 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,880 Yeah, pistachio, I feel like is not pistachio a part of 690 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,680 Neapolitan though, but whatever, it's a, it's a weird. 691 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,240 I, I, I'm an acquired taste in, in in some ways not, not 692 00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:36,040 everyone's gonna love everything that I'm into, and that's OK. 693 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,560 I part of being in business is recognizing that like you have 694 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,040 to fire some customers too, like you're some people are just not 695 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,600 the right fit for what you're doing and that's OK. 696 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,360 That's not a personal thing necessarily. 697 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,560 Absolutely. I also, I think the, the thing I 698 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,680 didn't mention about my, my, how I feel climate media is, is 699 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,520 there's just not enough Like there, there are people who are 700 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,720 going to be drawn to you. There are people who are not 701 00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:00,240 drawn to you that are going to be drawn to me and vice versa. 702 00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:02,960 And I hope that like we just need more of it. 703 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,720 And I, I wish I couldn't count like how many like climate 704 00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:11,920 influence, like major climate influencers, sort of like on 2 705 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,040 hands. Like I, I think there, there 706 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,080 just needs to be, there's just needs to be more. 707 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:24,480 So I think any shot in this in this in this little realm is, is 708 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,960 a worthy shot to see what sticks, you know? 709 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:34,320 I feel entirely the same and whenever people have messaged me 710 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,360 about getting started in podcasting, I've always tried to 711 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:42,320 be very encouraging because like like I've been saying, if people 712 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:43,760 are going to listen, it's because they like you 713 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,640 specifically and and because personalities are different. 714 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,960 This person isn't necessarily A1 to 1 competitor with you. 715 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,240 In fact, they may bring net new people into climate media and 716 00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:56,160 focused on climate change. They're going to appeal to 717 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,920 someone else, and that's good. The goal is to grow the number 718 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:02,840 of people who are concerned with and acting on climate. 719 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,400 The goal is not to build the most successful podcast for your 720 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,720 own personal glory. Like maybe that's some people's 721 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:10,440 goal. I think that's a bad goal. 722 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,560 I think I'd much rather just be encouraging because you really 723 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,400 never know. This is the Machiavellian 724 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:18,560 version of it. Like you don't know which 725 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,600 direction your life is going to go and like, maybe you need 726 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,840 someone and it's better to be kind to them overall. 727 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,200 And that's a good reason to help people even though they 728 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,080 technically compete with you. But also, we work in climate 729 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:30,560 change. I feel like I feel like fighting 730 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,120 within carbon removal and climate is. 731 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,360 Silly. Like that's kind of silly. 732 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:37,720 I don't like the status games of it. 733 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,760 I just try to help where I can. Yeah, OK. 734 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,960 Circling back into yeah, the people, people of Climate 735 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:50,080 question, what have you learned from being one of the biggest 736 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,800 podcasters in climate? I don't even know if that's 737 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,160 that's strictly true. OK, one of the longest running. 738 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,000 Besides shale Khan. Yeah, shale's. 739 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:00,720 Shale's been at it for a long time, for sure. 740 00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:06,520 I don't know. I think this tracks pretty 741 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,720 closely with my life, but I came out of a previous period where I 742 00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:18,840 was very deontologically oriented for philosophy, just 743 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,160 things being inherently right or wrong, you know, it doesn't 744 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,240 matter about the consequences, right? 745 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,480 And I came out of a philosophical paradigm that was 746 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,440 trying to figure out how to come up with like a comprehensive 747 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,760 system of, of knowing all of ethics and how that could be 748 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,120 done. And if that sounds like a crazy 749 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,400 project, yeah, it's super hard. And there's a reason why no 750 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,520 one's successfully done it to completion because there's 751 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,840 always edge cases and there's always things that will break 752 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,440 your system if you play with it. And I came out of a grad 753 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,440 program. I did a year of PhD work in 754 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:55,960 political philosophy and I can go into why specifically it's 755 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,760 not super necessary to explain it here, but various things in 756 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,520 that program disabuse me of that being the correct way to think 757 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,480 of things. So I ended up coming out of that 758 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,080 in a space that was very nuanced loving, where I tried really 759 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,280 hard to listen to everyone and read everything. 760 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,280 I, I'm I in so far as I can pat myself on the back for anything. 761 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,680 I feel like I've read deeply people who disagree with them 762 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,800 each other. Like I I I've not just read 763 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,640 stuff that I agreed with, I've sought out. 764 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,240 I, I like read super widely so I can have really cool 765 00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:26,880 conversations with conservatives. 766 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,480 I can talk with Marxists, like all of it. 767 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,920 It's like comes out as good podcasting that is fair that I'm 768 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,680 not like dunking on people in some mean spirited way. 769 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:39,480 And that's been really fun. But I think in some ways I, I 770 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,720 realize that I've surrendered a lot of moral authority in that 771 00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:45,160 process. And recently I've been feeling 772 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,640 like many of the things that happening in the world are just 773 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,880 wrong and nuances the inappropriate lens to understand 774 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:53,560 them. And I've been trying to reclaim 775 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,800 some of that moral authority. So I even look back on some of 776 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,280 that podcasting that was very effective at having productive 777 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,680 conversations and things like, you know, actually, I probably 778 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,880 shouldn't have let that comment go or like, maybe I should have 779 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,040 been a little more aggressive and opposing this particular 780 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:08,520 idea. And like, Nah, I'm, I'm like 781 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,200 recasting what I used to see as virtue now as vice. 782 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,280 I'm trying to process that right now. 783 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,560 Wow, that was a different direction that I thought then I 784 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,800 thought it would go. Yeah, I, I guess, I mean the, 785 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,240 yeah, it's more of a media question than a people question 786 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:25,320 in this case, I guess for you. Like I think that is a huge 787 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,320 question happening in the podcasting space in general, 788 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,440 right. Like what's platforming versus 789 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:38,240 like cosigning? And, and yeah, like it's we this 790 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,400 this whole like both sides thing is, is kind of, I don't know if 791 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,560 this is what you're saying, but like, yeah, sometimes, sometimes 792 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:53,280 not having some, some sort of like viewpoint or filter can be, 793 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,040 can become platforming, I guess. But it's tough. 794 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,080 I mean, you're inviting a guest and it's like they came into 795 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:06,000 your home and you're feeding them lunch and you're, you know, 796 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:07,920 that you they came and spent time with you. 797 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,480 So it's it's kind of a weird awkward situation, right? 798 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,360 Yeah, I never, I never wanted to invite someone to the show that 799 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,560 was going to be a gotcha or they're they're to embarrass 800 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,240 them. In fact, 11 guest that we had on 801 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:28,520 was doing work that was maybe they characterize it as carbon 802 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:33,960 removal back when Christophe was Co hosting it with me disagreed 803 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,400 that it was carbon removal and it felt like kind of bad that we 804 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,320 maybe ambushed this person and I'm like, we probably just 805 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,680 shouldn't have had them on. I don't know if that was ethical 806 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,760 to to invite them into a space where they thought they were 807 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,480 going to be having a cool conversation and now they're 808 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,000 like defending themselves. I regret that one. 809 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:59,000 Hard to say, you know, like, yeah, OK, so I know both of us 810 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:05,440 have thoughts on this concept of the kinds of people who could 811 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:11,080 work in climate who choose to work on in big tech and AI and 812 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,120 other other things like software things. 813 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,680 Software is king in the last 10 years sort of thing. 814 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,680 And you and I try to spend a lot of our efforts helping people to 815 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,160 transition into climate work or choose climate work. 816 00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:28,760 And yeah, I wanted to talk about this video that I made recently 817 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,600 who that did really well. A lot of people resonated with 818 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:38,640 this idea that there is a brain drain into Google, Meta, 819 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:43,240 Twitter, whatever. What do you think about that? 820 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:49,840 I think it's true after Nori wound down I I don't know. 821 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,720 I've been applying for full time positions and many of the most 822 00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:58,440 attractive ones are at Fortune 100 companies and even the ones 823 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,320 that relate to carbon removal, the wages there are substantial. 824 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,080 They're the kind of jobs where when you see them, literally 825 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,880 everyone in carbon removal applies at the same time. 826 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,320 Like whenever Frontier puts a job out, strike puts a job out, 827 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,040 Apple puts a job out. Like, you know, like I'll go to 828 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:15,440 a meet up. It's like you guys apply for 829 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,000 this. They're like, Yep, to a person, 830 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,480 everyone applied for it and watching that it's, I mean, it's 831 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:24,240 good though. Those are good jobs where people 832 00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:26,480 should be there. But there's also just the brain 833 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,920 drain element of it where people aren't working on climate at all 834 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,720 just because the the wage competition is just so intense. 835 00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:36,440 And I've, I've done a lot more. I never liked talking about this 836 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,640 in public because I feel like talking about any good things 837 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,520 that you do in public obliterates the moral value of 838 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,280 it. But I've done God. 839 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,080 So like I'm in a tough spot because it's relevant to this. 840 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,160 OK, I've been been doing more volunteering and trying to just 841 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,880 get much more engaged in community matters. 842 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,920 And it's, it's been a really positive experience for me. 843 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,240 I've, I've really built connected and a lot of the work 844 00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:02,080 I gravitate towards is very care oriented. 845 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,120 And it, it blows my mind to go to some of these places and see 846 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,040 people who are doing honestly some of the most valuable work 847 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,320 on the planet, doing work in like Hospice care with death and 848 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,600 dying or with transitional housing and seeing these people 849 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,800 and be like, you're probably making like $35,000 a year and 850 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,360 like living here. And, and like, and then you'll 851 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,040 see someone who is coding something that steals your data 852 00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:30,360 and is creating some a horrible monster out of it, the 853 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,880 repercussions of which we may not see for for years. 854 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,920 And it's like, as someone who came from an intellectual space 855 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,840 that cares a lot about markets and the importance of how 856 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,440 markets tell us about what type of work is valuable, seeing the 857 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:48,760 discrepancy between these things has made me really question like 858 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,320 if the systems that we use for determining value are not 859 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:57,200 totally messed up in some way. And it can really mess you up. 860 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:02,160 I've known some people who recently were, you know, opposed 861 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:07,840 to what was happening with the second Trump administration and 862 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,760 policy changes, but they like certain parts of it that they 863 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,040 had a financial interest in. Like I, I had met people that 864 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:21,400 had AI investments or had worked in that space or were involved 865 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,800 in crypto or involved in some of the spaces that maybe the policy 866 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,760 changes relative to the Biden administration were industry 867 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,440 enhancing or clarifying in some way. 868 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:37,680 And it made me feel really sad that people could be persuaded 869 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:43,600 out of having moral authority because of some pecuniary 870 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,880 interest. And they're very specific 871 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,360 industry. And it made me think of like one 872 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,760 of the most hated passages that always freaks everyone out is 873 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,640 the, the the verse in the gospel about how if your, if your right 874 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,640 hand causes you to sin, you should cut it off. 875 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,040 But I honestly feel like if, if you know, being invested being 876 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,800 with working in AI or investing in crypto or anything like that 877 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,600 causes you to make bad decisions like that, you should just 878 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,480 divest from it. Because if it's going to cause 879 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,640 you to to turn a blind eye to things that are happening that 880 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,120 are just not you would not otherwise support, I think it's 881 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,320 imperative upon you to to stop doing that. 882 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:23,000 I'm thinking about like my audience for who I'm trying to 883 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:27,800 pull away from Big Tech are people who have that even 884 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:33,600 inkling of a moral question of do I actually feel like good 885 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,120 working in this on this like AI, whatever chatbot like. 886 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:44,040 And also, I mean, in the in the post, I'm also trying to appeal 887 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,320 to people who are really who have their whole lives been seen 888 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,320 as very smart and successful, who should be kind of like 889 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:58,240 questioning if their talents are actually being used correctly. 890 00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:01,120 Like it's not just that there's money there. 891 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:06,720 It's like, well, do you like what, what, what's the cost to 892 00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:11,560 you to work on something that isn't morally aligned or morally 893 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:15,080 dubious? Like, I do understand why people 894 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,560 work in big tech for a, you know, for the paycheck, but I 895 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,800 think a lot of people do it because they actually drink the 896 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,720 kool-aid that what they are working on is important. 897 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:33,480 And, you know, we all do like mental hoops to justify whatever 898 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,400 we're working on. But I think there's a like a big 899 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,600 subsection of people who have the golden handcuff problem 900 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,840 where they, they don't actually want to be there anymore. 901 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,160 They don't actually feel like their talents are being used. 902 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,800 They care more about some other thing, but it's they're getting 903 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,400 paid so well that it's very hard to make that decision. 904 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,720 And so I'm kind of speaking to an audience who's trying to ask 905 00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,560 how what else is there? How do I find that role? 906 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,160 Because, you know, I have this other this other thing I do 907 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,880 where I'm like, I ask people, you know, if they can name 10 908 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,200 climate companies or 10 climate organizations. 909 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:13,520 A lot of people can't, but you can name 10 software companies. 910 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:18,680 And yeah, it's like it's very like the, I think it's on people 911 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,680 like us to grease the wheels towards that choice. 912 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,360 Like it's just the, the barrier to entry to even knowing what 913 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,320 kind of jobs there are is, is really high where big tech is 914 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,920 really low because it's everywhere. 915 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,200 We use it every day. Bunch of good points there. 916 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,760 I had a conversation with an old friend of mine recently. 917 00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,920 Do you know Drew Wilkinson? Have you? 918 00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:48,680 Drew is part of the Microsoft employees who were working to 919 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,440 make Microsoft much more sustainability oriented, even 920 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,480 though Microsoft is essentially the world leader in that, but 921 00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:01,200 still, you know, supporting fossil fuel extraction and and 922 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,400 involved in some not so nice parts of the economy as well. 923 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,440 And I was talking to Drew about this recently. 924 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,760 He's been publishing about this. So I think it's fair game to 925 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,080 talk about. But he got part time job doing 926 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,720 architectural salvage so he can reuse building materials. 927 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:22,800 And that's climate work. It pays for crap, but not 928 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:27,080 everything is about like how quickly can you earn $300,000 929 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:31,160 and have a nice pile of income sitting aside. 930 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,480 I don't know. I had a thing recently where I 931 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:35,880 respect Drew a lot for this, by the way. 932 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,280 I think it really, it was inspiring to me to talk to him 933 00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:43,800 recently for it. I had a client recently that I 934 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,160 also just thought that they were doing things that was going that 935 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,240 was just kind of bankrupt them. I thought they were going about 936 00:50:48,240 --> 00:50:52,640 this in a in a bad way. And I'm a contract employee and 937 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:56,760 I'm telling them to cut expenses and therefore am just sort of de 938 00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,640 facto in the sights of cost cutting measures for bringing 939 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,600 this up. But I try to have the attitude 940 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:07,600 of if you were paying me to tell you the truth, I'm going to tell 941 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,920 you the truth, even if it might mean that I'm going to lose my 942 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,000 job. And I I'd like being able to 943 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,680 feel good about providing enough value to do that is worth the 944 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,480 risk of me losing the short term paycheck. 945 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,280 And as I get older, rather than getting more conservative in 946 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,800 this way, where I like more trying to protect what I have, I 947 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,640 have a family. I don't want to like lose things 948 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,320 like those things are really hard. 949 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,080 Like I'm the primary breadwinner. 950 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,040 I need to like make sure I do these things, but I also don't 951 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,520 want to sell my soul in the process. 952 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,320 And I feel more comfortable for ethical reasons. 953 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,480 Just like telling the truth and doing things that are 954 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:50,960 individually hard but make me feel like I'm being as honorable 955 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,720 as I reasonably can. And obviously I suck at this 956 00:51:53,720 --> 00:51:54,680 too. And I fail at this. 957 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,320 I am not like putting myself as some St. 958 00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,880 I'm like the lowest of the low in some ways to actually really 959 00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:04,720 try to be a decent person. But ultimately, the 960 00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:07,760 responsibility for your actions is what is 100% your own. 961 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,520 Some people are dealt terrible hands and they do not make good 962 00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,880 decisions. And they're probably good 963 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,960 reasons for them failing to make good decisions. 964 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:17,800 And we should have mercy for them and understand that. 965 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,280 But I also think how you choose to be in the world is is your 966 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,960 responsibility. And I just want to be able to be 967 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,120 proud of it. And I think if I took a job that 968 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,160 was doing things that I felt icky about and I worked that job 969 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,280 for 10 years so I could earn good money and I can do good 970 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,640 stuff later, I don't, I don't want to do good stuff later. 971 00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,520 I might not be here later. It's my job to do that now. 972 00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,280 I don't like talking like this though, because it makes me 973 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,600 sound like I think I'm some some fantastic, wonderful person. 974 00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,240 But that is how I'm like trying to make more decisions now these 975 00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:51,640 days. I mean, it is AI mean I, I feel 976 00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,440 that way too. It's like a, a place of 977 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,200 privilege to be like I, you know, like to, to make that 978 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:57,920 decision. But what I'm saying about the 979 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,560 golden handcuffs is there are plenty of people who have those 980 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:04,120 privileges and could make those decisions who either don't know 981 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:07,920 how to and hopefully they come to people like us who to get 982 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:13,200 that guidance or, or they're just not there yet. 983 00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,960 Like they don't feel that weight enough yet. 984 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,760 But yeah. And I never blame the people who 985 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,840 are experiencing, you know, that these choices because it's hard. 986 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:27,480 Like the system we live in, a capitalist system that is making 987 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,520 things harder every day, it seems for us to like, make 988 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:36,240 choices like that because we are being pressed to, to live with 989 00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:39,600 less overtime. And and then, you know, there 990 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,320 are like crazy amounts of money in things like AI. 991 00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,160 So it, yeah, it does. I think it really does come down 992 00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:49,400 to that. What is the cost of your soul? 993 00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:54,920 Like what is the cost of feeling like emptiness inside on a daily 994 00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,040 basis because you're not like doing something that feels 995 00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,560 actually aligned with you or you feel ashamed talking to your 996 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:04,000 friends about what you're working on. 997 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,680 You know those kinds of social things, they really do matter. 998 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,920 My wife and I have this funny split where she's very justice 999 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,200 oriented and I'm very mercy oriented. 1000 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,000 And obviously you need, you need a mix of both to have like a 1001 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,880 healthy relationship to causality in action. 1002 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,920 But I yeah. What do you do when someone 1003 00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,200 doesn't realize that what they're doing isn't wrong? 1004 00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,560 Or maybe they've suppressed the feelings of wrongness and are 1005 00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,360 just happy to be getting that good paycheck and are on 1006 00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,120 autopilot for a while until they have a chance to do something 1007 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:40,720 really positive later. Like shame can be potentially 1008 00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:43,720 productive if used appropriately. 1009 00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:48,960 But I also I'm like really cautious about entering into 1010 00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,280 that judgmental space in that way. 1011 00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:53,960 I think that how it makes you feel. 1012 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,200 I think it's also a dangerous sign because becoming 1013 00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:00,040 self-righteous, I was self-righteous recently with 1014 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,640 people that I felt disappointed in their actions. 1015 00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,120 And it's a drug. Like I feel the the anger surge. 1016 00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:10,000 And even if it's well applied and deserving as far as you 1017 00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,320 know, which you might actually be wrong about in some cases, 1018 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,000 you see all the nuance like baggage. 1019 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,200 It's just like in the back of my head, even like trying to speak 1020 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,600 coherently. That's like where I'm coming 1021 00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,000 from. But you can just like feel how 1022 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,680 it makes you feel. Like I don't want, I say this 1023 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,600 like lowest of the low thing. I'm, I'm like trying to be aware 1024 00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,320 that even if even like as a secular person, I like the 1025 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,440 Christian notion of sin. And, and what I like about it 1026 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:39,360 too is that it's not, it's not about, there's not really like 1027 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,840 gradations of it. It's like you're embedded in it. 1028 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,200 And so like one person who does something that's like the worst 1029 00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,560 crime imaginable, and then the person who just holds anger in 1030 00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,960 their heart are both equally guilty of murder in this way of 1031 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,240 understanding sin, which might strike some people as crazy. 1032 00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:58,640 And maybe it is, but I don't know, I, I don't like being able 1033 00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:00,840 to be put in a position where I'm feeling that anger and 1034 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,800 you're, I'm putting myself above other people and I'm casting out 1035 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:09,160 these people who have profaned. And I think people who get too 1036 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,800 enamored of judgment give voice to like a kind of a sick part of 1037 00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,040 us that likes going to war. It's like very similar to it's, 1038 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:18,720 it's battle. I don't know if you've ever had 1039 00:56:18,720 --> 00:56:21,920 that surgeon in you, but I don't know. 1040 00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:23,840 I don't think that we should be experiencing as much of that. 1041 00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,320 I think we should be experiencing more mercy and more 1042 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,360 forgiveness and more understanding where possible. 1043 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,720 I think there's plenty of places to get angry or culture rewards 1044 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,600 anger. I feel like Trump won the office 1045 00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:39,000 primarily by like just feeding anger and feeding it things that 1046 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,760 are easy targets of anger. And I, I just, even when I'm 1047 00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:45,920 justified, I tend not, I don't want to go to anger. 1048 00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,400 And when I when I do get there, I feel some amount of shame in 1049 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,520 myself that I lost control and that that actually isn't what 1050 00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,000 the world needs more of. And I have somehow like let it 1051 00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,240 down. Has this gone off the rails for 1052 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,000 you? Is this like too far afield? 1053 00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:01,560 No, it's OK. It's OK. 1054 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,080 It's only OK though. So I think these are kind of 1055 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:04,920 weird. They're. 1056 00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:09,800 Very relevant. These are very relevant thoughts 1057 00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,280 that we all grapple with. I mean, the reason why I, I, I, 1058 00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:17,200 I have this like very anti shame bet towards in my platform is 1059 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:21,560 because, yeah, I agree. Like I think shame and anger is, 1060 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:26,120 is a gate to keep people out and it is a something that divides 1061 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:30,960 us. Like I, I, I feel that, yeah. 1062 00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:36,480 There's just, I, I, I really feel that the climate movement 1063 00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:41,080 would be larger, the environmental movement would be 1064 00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:46,360 larger if we didn't have shame attached to so much of like, 1065 00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:49,320 like, I, there's this like purity test that comes along 1066 00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,840 with a lot of environmentalism. And I really think it's because 1067 00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,760 historically environmentalism was a very white movement. 1068 00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:00,840 And that's something that like, you know, we people of color, 1069 00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,360 people who are, who are people, like lots of there are people 1070 00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,640 who are not white in the environmental movement who have 1071 00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,840 felt not welcomed in the environmental movement. 1072 00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:14,680 And there's these layers of like, I don't know, there's like 1073 00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:18,400 stereotypes of vegans being holier than thou and things like 1074 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:19,800 that. But there's lots of people who, 1075 00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:25,840 who are vegan or people who are environmentalists who are, are 1076 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:31,200 not gonna be shaming you for not recycling One thing, you know, 1077 00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,200 like that kind of purity testing is just is gatekeeping. 1078 00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,920 It prevents people from trying their best and it makes people 1079 00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,400 hate environmentalists. And we don't want that. 1080 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,480 There's no, there's no, there's no use in that. 1081 00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,600 So I, I guess I'm, I'm glad that there's like other versions of, 1082 00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:52,200 of people who have talked about that more and, and I want to 1083 00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:57,800 contribute to that like kind of winding back of that shame 1084 00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,680 environmentalism or like creating a, like helping 1085 00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:04,040 perpetuate a different type of a more inclusive and more 1086 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:06,640 understanding version of environmentalism. 1087 00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,640 Sounds nice. I think it's can be more 1088 00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:16,160 inviting and joyful. It doesn't have to be shame. 1089 00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:20,080 I don't like the there's some version of it. 1090 00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,080 I feel like both the left and the right both have a version of 1091 00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:27,160 it where one environmental failure on the level of 1092 00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,800 individual choice negates the overall approach. 1093 00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:34,200 It's like, oh, well, Al Gore just drank out of a Styrofoam 1094 00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:35,840 cup. Oh, gotcha. 1095 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,560 Yeah, exactly. And then like the the horseshoe 1096 00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:42,360 theory around, it'll be like Al Gorey drink out of a cup, a bad 1097 00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:47,280 cup and like who? Who is that good for? 1098 00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:49,920 This is like the point about anger and maybe it relates to 1099 00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:54,840 shame here too, but people like I'm a are you on Reddit? 1100 00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:56,880 Are you a Redditor at all? It's the one thing that I 1101 00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:00,360 prevented myself from getting into 'cause I know how bad it'll 1102 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:05,080 be for me. Yeah, I man, Reddit is one of 1103 01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:07,200 those things too, where there's so many subreddits that have a 1104 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,560 justice orientation. I don't mean it in a good way. 1105 01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,720 I mean it's like someone does something bad to someone and 1106 01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:16,200 they get like slapped like on the street or like someone will 1107 01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,680 like kick off a side like a, a mirror on a car because they cut 1108 01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:22,000 them off and that person will crash their bike or whatever. 1109 01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,200 And there's like watching it. You're just like, you feel this 1110 01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,920 like, oh, like the the justice of like, oh, they got what was 1111 01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:31,760 coming to them kind of thing. And it's just like there's so 1112 01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,160 much of that on the Internet. The Internet is sort of made for 1113 01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:38,640 like feeding like I can, I can see this stuff and avoid it and 1114 01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,680 like try not to like encounter it, but it does something to you 1115 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,760 biochemically. And I think that's like what I 1116 01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,480 think the Trump administration has been so good at tapping into 1117 01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,520 is just like beating that terrible part of ourselves that 1118 01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,760 like seeing the person open palm slapped in a Carl's junior for 1119 01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:59,080 something like terrible. And Twitter is hand in hand with 1120 01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:03,920 that like people are everything's world star right 1121 01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,680 now, which is shouldn't be in what a. 1122 01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,960 Reference there. It, it really is a, it does it, 1123 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:12,560 it goes out to like moral erosion. 1124 01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:16,520 Like, do we like, what does it help us do? 1125 01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:18,960 Like, it doesn't help anybody except for us to feel a little 1126 01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:23,080 bit better for like a second. Well, we're all getting 1127 01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:27,160 oppressed at the same time. I, I think it's good to, to like 1128 01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:33,440 acknowledge one's shadow and, and see that like, wow, even I 1129 01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,160 who consider myself to be someone who cares about mercy, 1130 01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:43,120 can be moved to feelings of joy at retaliation and retribution. 1131 01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,440 Like I have that in my soul. Like I thought I was like above 1132 01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:48,240 that or trying to, it's still in me. 1133 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:50,640 And like, being able to acknowledge that too, I think is 1134 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,880 where spiritual growth, if it can happen, is likely to happen 1135 01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,120 'cause you're like, wow, I'm just, I'm like down in the muck 1136 01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:58,280 with literally everyone else, no matter how hard I try. 1137 01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,280 And I keep aspiring to crawl out of the muck. 1138 01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,120 And there I am again. Unfortunately, you're still 1139 01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:05,000 human. Very. 1140 01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,120 Well, for now, we'll see. We'll see what happens, right? 1141 01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:12,120 But. Yeah, TBD if Ross ascends beyond 1142 01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:18,000 his his human constraints. OK, I guess I'll, I will. 1143 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:19,360 I wanna let you go at some point. 1144 01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:21,600 But we obviously could. There's lots of things we can 1145 01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:25,320 talk about. But I guess I'll leave with the 1146 01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:29,080 last thing, which is I on this platform am trying to help 1147 01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:34,880 people to see that there's reasons to not be completely to 1148 01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:38,200 feel complete despair. Like there's, there's a there's 1149 01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:42,360 actually reasons to feel like thing progress is being made. 1150 01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,160 And maybe this has gone back to the media thing. 1151 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,680 Like I feel like that's something people miss. 1152 01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:50,400 They're not reading good climate news. 1153 01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:54,800 Like there are obviously like Elena Wood, garbage queen, like 1154 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:56,680 she's she's somebody who's trying to combat that with 1155 01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:58,000 bringing good climate news to people. 1156 01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:04,080 And we need more of that. What What's keeping you going in 1157 01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:08,160 this work, and what are some things that keep you hopeful? 1158 01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:14,080 I've been spending time in those spaces recently that are people 1159 01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:19,200 that I mentioned who are doing care work or things that are not 1160 01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,160 remunerative but are worth doing for their own sake and people 1161 01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:30,160 who feel called to renounce the status and the financial rewards 1162 01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:33,520 that come from seeking a tech job. 1163 01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,280 I think people who have chosen something different, not because 1164 01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:41,120 they had to, but because that is how they want to spend their 1165 01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,640 time. And that's also someone like 1166 01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:45,760 Drew. It's both people who are in 1167 01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:50,160 working in some of these housing things that I have met and then 1168 01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:54,200 also people that just sort of like came out of a tech 1169 01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,680 environment and realize, well, I'm not even sure I want to go 1170 01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:58,600 back into that. In fact, I'd like to use my 1171 01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:02,520 talents for something else. And I think I think that kind of 1172 01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,560 spiritual change that leads people to do things like that is 1173 01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,120 makes me reimagine how I'm living my life too. 1174 01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:14,640 Because obviously I post things on LinkedIn, I care about 1175 01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:20,640 status. I, I like acquiring new 1176 01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,640 affiliations because it provides a lot of validation where you 1177 01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:27,560 can say like, oh, I people think I'm smart and cool and like I am 1178 01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,800 invited to do this high status activity and isn't that great. 1179 01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:36,480 And I like, I feel, I feel really challenged in, in the 1180 01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:39,920 best kind of way when I see people that are not doing that 1181 01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:41,920 at all. I feel like I do it in a self 1182 01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:46,760 aware way, which is good. It's better than not, but I 1183 01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:50,240 respect a lot the people who have broken free of that sort of 1184 01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:54,040 like deep worldly pursuit. It's crazy though, because if 1185 01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:57,400 you are a family person, you, you essentially have to make 1186 01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:00,800 sure your family is provided for and is financially secure and 1187 01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:04,720 you need, you can't really stay in one place in your career 1188 01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:06,880 either. Like, I obviously want to keep 1189 01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:11,120 growing and doing more prestigious, more remunerative 1190 01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,800 work, more people listening to my podcast, more people reading 1191 01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,760 what I write. And at some point I'm just like 1192 01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:21,440 seeing people who are not in that rat race. 1193 01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:27,080 And even if I'm not able to fully follow them, they inspire 1194 01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:30,360 me and I think that's good. I like when people do things 1195 01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:35,840 that have a pro social or pro environmental way of doing 1196 01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:38,440 things that don't tell anyone about it either. 1197 01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,080 I always like those secret moments of just, I did the right 1198 01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:44,320 thing because it was a good thing to do. 1199 01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:48,200 And I like being able to see small glimmers of beauty in that 1200 01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:51,120 way that still exists. Because like, LinkedIn is one of 1201 01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:53,560 those places where it's like, if you did a good deed and didn't 1202 01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,120 tell all of LinkedIn about it, did it actually happen? 1203 01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:58,680 It's nice to just feel like LinkedIn. 1204 01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,120 Yeah. I don't know. 1205 01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:04,480 I think. I think some of those things 1206 01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:09,760 that are lower status are just sort of small human scale 1207 01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:13,920 kindnesses or things of moments of self deprivation that no one 1208 01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:17,200 else knows about, but that was the correct ecological or 1209 01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:20,200 environmental or social move you'd have made. 1210 01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,680 And again, I feel like this all the time and I'm like not 1211 01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:26,680 optimized for this at all. But I've been encountering more 1212 01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:28,600 people like that recently. And I used to think that they 1213 01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:31,120 were kind of irrational in a way. 1214 01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:33,600 And maybe it is irrational in a little bit of a way because it 1215 01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:37,840 doesn't make a difference overall, like maybe an aggregate 1216 01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:40,560 it does. But I like that people have 1217 01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:43,440 chosen the less comfortable, least comfortable thing, less 1218 01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:48,680 comfortable thing for themselves for some ethical or spiritual 1219 01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:52,080 purpose beyond just, well, it's my status as my career. 1220 01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:54,800 I had to do it for my career. You know, like I like that they 1221 01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:56,840 went for it. I care about that more. 1222 01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:58,920 I didn't always care about that. And this is probably something 1223 01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:01,080 if you'd interviewed me a month earlier, I probably wouldn't 1224 01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:03,080 even have given this answer. But I just had some experiences 1225 01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:05,560 recently that been really challenging and productive in 1226 01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:07,400 this way. So I'm hearing that you're 1227 01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:13,200 seeing, I guess people hold onto their morals or make choices 1228 01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:16,080 that no one sees and that they're good choices. 1229 01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:19,360 Yeah, I think part of it is I didn't even make this connection 1230 01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,840 to now until now, but have you seen the film A Hidden Life? 1231 01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:25,560 I don't think so, no. I'm sorry. 1232 01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,280 I haven't gotten any references that you've brought to me today. 1233 01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:30,360 It's OK. This is the danger. 1234 01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:31,800 Of hanging out with me. It's not. 1235 01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:33,440 It's not you. It's me, Heidi. 1236 01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:36,320 All right, that's good to know. It's a it's a Terrence Malick 1237 01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:37,880 film. I think I won several Oscars 1238 01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:40,160 too. But it's about an Austrian 1239 01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:42,840 farmer in World War 2. He's a, you know, quite devout 1240 01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:46,560 Catholic and he refuses to to swear a loyalty oath to Hitler 1241 01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:48,400 and is eventually put to death for it. 1242 01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:54,600 And it's based on a George Eliot quote about how civilization 1243 01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:58,920 advances by these people who do the courageous things but are 1244 01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:01,480 buried in unmarked graves, essentially that no one ever 1245 01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:03,920 visits. And like, this person eventually 1246 01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,640 became beatified, which is the road to sainthood. 1247 01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:10,600 But at the time, like it didn't stop World War 2, it didn't stop 1248 01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:13,000 Hitler. But there's something that's 1249 01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:15,920 still very meaningful about his choosing to do that, even though 1250 01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:18,880 he had a family but just could, would not serve in the army, 1251 01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,560 would not swear the oath, even though everyone's trying to 1252 01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:23,359 convince him. Like we're going to put you in a 1253 01:08:23,359 --> 01:08:25,560 hospital and like just let you be an orderly in there. 1254 01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:27,359 It's going to be fine. He's like, I'm just not willing 1255 01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:29,439 to do this. Put me to death if you want. 1256 01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:34,560 And it's irrational. It's crazy, but it's so moving. 1257 01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:35,760 I just, there's something about that. 1258 01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:40,880 I'm like, I, I, I am meeting people that have that kind of 1259 01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,160 character lately and I'm like, I wish I would have half the 1260 01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:44,920 amount of character this person does. 1261 01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,240 And it's just been really, really beautiful. 1262 01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,080 I feel like I've been learning, learning about myself and about 1263 01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:54,399 the world and and the kinds of people that are worth following. 1264 01:08:56,279 --> 01:09:00,920 What a yeah, a beautiful end. I mean, I add to this 1265 01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:04,960 conversation. Thank you, Ross, for chatting on 1266 01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:08,359 this inaugural podcast video interview. 1267 01:09:08,359 --> 01:09:17,040 I mean, and I'll, I'll make sure that we get people to go watch 1268 01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:19,640 your content and 'cause you're gonna have video soon. 1269 01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:24,840 Hopefully I know you have video on Spotify and hopefully other 1270 01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:28,840 people will be inspired by your your work over in the podcasting 1271 01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:31,720 sphere and beyond. Thank you. 1272 01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,439 And likewise I'm, I'm happy to take your cues here and I'll, 1273 01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:37,520 I'll likely follow you with the right set of nudges. 1274 01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,960 Yes, I just come and do stuff with you more often. 1275 01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:42,399 Thank you for having me. I'm so honored I'm the first one 1276 01:09:42,399 --> 01:09:43,880 here. I've learned a lot from you over 1277 01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:45,399 the years. I'm happy we're friends, happy 1278 01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:47,720 to be supportive of your endeavors, and wish you great 1279 01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:49,520 success doing this. Thank you. 1280 01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:52,920 Yeah, hopefully in a year we can look back and there will be some 1281 01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:53,760 growth. We'll see. 1282 01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:55,120 Yeah. OK. 1283 01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:57,440 Thanks, Ross. Thank you. 1284 01:09:57,560 --> 01:09:57,880 All right.