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Hey everyone, thank you for 
listening. 

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This is Ross Kenny, and I'm your
host. 

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I have two sponsors that I'd 
like to tell you about today. 

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They're both organizations doing
valuable work within Carbon 

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Removal. 
One of them is a new sponsor of 

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the show and the other one has 
been with us from the start, so 

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I'm going to start with a new 
one. 

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I'm going to give them a chance 
to go first. 

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It's Climify. 
Personally, I think they produce

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some of the best content within 
Carbon Removal. 

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Their reports are top tier. 
I always look forward to reading

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them. 
I've learned a lot from them. 

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There's one in particular that I
like that I referenced in a blog

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post I wrote a while back called
Bridging the Cdr Financing Gap. 

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The comprehensive guide. 
Just really powerful, great 

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work. 
If you're looking for good Intel

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on carbon removal, check out the
Clima Fire reports. 

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They're really good. 
There are lots of intermediaries

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within carbon removal. 
If someone wants to buy carbon 

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removals, many people will heed 
the call and try to sell them 

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some. 
Climify is a group that I see 

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almost more as a white glove 
service. 

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They're quite selective in what 
they choose to do. 

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The way that they put it is that
they empower companies to 

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develop and manage robust, high 
quality, durable Cdr portfolios 

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that's built upon market 
intelligence. 

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They have a proprietary rating 
system. 

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You may have heard that they 
just gave Deep Sky in Canada a 

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very high rating. 
They're involved in the 

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procurement themselves of 
facilitating, sourcing and 

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managing RFPs for companies. 
So if you're looking to run a 

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carbon removal RFPA request for 
proposal. 

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So you could have. 
Carbon removal companies coming 

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to you with proposals for what 
they might be able to do. 

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Climify as a group that can very
much help you with that, perform

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the due diligence, structure the
portfolios, negotiating, 

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executing transactions, that's 
all something that they can help

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you with. 
And then also just managing the 

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portfolio of making sure that 
the projects are monitored, 

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warehoused appropriately and 
then when the time comes, 

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retired. 
Climify's project database 

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covers about 95% of all the 
durable Cdr projects globally, 

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but out of the 500 plus projects
reviewed by Climify, only 15% 

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meet their standards for 
delivery and integrity that they

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look for. 
And eventually only 5% of those 

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projects are included in client 
portfolios. 

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If you're looking to buy some 
carbon removals, if you want to 

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run an RFP, follow the link in 
the show notes to learn more 

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about Climify. 
And of course, I'm also very 

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happy that Arbonics is 
sponsoring the show again. 

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Arbonics connects European land 
owners to corporate credit 

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buyers in order to remove CO2 
and protect biodiversity. 

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They're very data-driven. 
They're trying to turn degraded 

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and abandoned land in Europe, in
the Baltic States back into 

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biodiverse force. 
That's a really impactful good 

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thing to be doing for its own 
sake. 

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Outside of carbon removal, it's 
a good thing to do but is also 

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very much focused on how much 
carbon can be sequestered while 

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also pointing us towards the 
importance of Co benefits and 

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ecosystem services. 
I think sometimes carbon removed

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people forget about. 
We're pretty focused on the PPM,

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but the other stuff is really 
important too. 

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They're doing fascinating work 
on the data layer side. 

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I'm not sure if you've seen the 
digital twinning of forestry, 

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but they're making it. 
It's exactly what it sounds 

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like. 
Our Bonics is on the cutting 

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edge, trying to make forestry 
work for carbon removals and 

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turn your back into that 
beautifully forested continent 

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that it once was. 
So if that interests you, the 

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link is in the show notes to go 
check out Our Bionics. 

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Also, Lizette Louie, one of the 
founders and COO of our Bionics,

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was on the podcast earlier this 
year. 

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Go check that out because we dig
into a lot of the role of 

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temporary removals within carbon
removal. 

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It's a fascinating big topic and
Lizette brings her a game to it,

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so I hope you enjoy. 
Link to both sponsors are in the

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show notes. 
If you'd like to be a sponsor of

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the show too and hear more about
what that might look like, you 

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can e-mail me. 
The e-mail is in the show notes.

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And then also, if you're 
podcasting and you want to use 

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Riverside for recording or D 
Script for editing and 

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transcription services, I have 
affiliate links in the notes 

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too, and that also helps drive 
the show's financial solvency. 

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So thanks so much for listening.
Here is the intro to your show. 

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Hello and thank you for 
listening to the Reverse in 

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Climate Change podcast. 
I'm Ross Kenyon. 

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I'm a carbon remover, simple as 
that. 

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Been involved in carbon removal 
for the better part of a decade.

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I'm really happy to present this
show today. 

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It's with my friend Christian 
Gavers. 

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Danut Christiana tapped me on 
the shoulder when City Cdr 

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initiative was something that he
was just starting to think 

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about. 
It really captured my attention.

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As you can tell on the show, I'm
really passionate about the 

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kinds of questions that his work
involves. 

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At a superficial level, the city
Cdr initiative is an attempt to 

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embed carbon removal in 
municipalities and sub national 

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political units. 
A lot of people think about 

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climate policies happening at 
the national level and 

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international level, but below 
that it's more symbolic or not 

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really that interesting to a lot
of people in some cases. 

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But I think actually that is not
correct. 

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And I think the kinds of 
political questions it asks are 

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very important and fundamental. 
They are questions around what 

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is the correct size of entity to
undertake climate action. 

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And I think a lot of the 
momentum is to scale that up as 

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high as possible. 
We want climate policy that one 

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cannot defect from, and the 
assumption is that having that 

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at the highest level makes that 
more possible. 

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But I'm also. 
A strong believer in this idea 

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of subsidiarity, that 
organization should rise to the 

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appropriate level of 
centralization and scale, but no

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greater than that. 
And there's a lot we can do that

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is sub national. 
There are things that States and

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cities and counties and other 
units can do that are useful 

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experiments for figuring out 
what kinds of policy even works 

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at a much smaller scale before 
we choose a much riskier and 

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higher level of complexity 
organization like a national or 

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international level. 
And as we get into in the show, 

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all politics is local and 
someone has to live. 

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With carbon removal 
infrastructure. 

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And that could be anything from 
improving soil health and having

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more carbon in the soil and 
healthier soil slowing down 

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water runoff and increasing the 
resiliency for communities in 

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the face of floods. 
Or it could literally be 

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pipelines carrying compressed 
CO2 to classics wells, and a lot

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in between that cities are going
to interact with carbon removal.

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And being able to find ways to 
do that in a way that is 

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acceptable and maybe even better
than acceptable to residents is 

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work very much worth doing. 
And given that larger scale 

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political units are in a time of
crisis, I think it's fair to say

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geopolitics is something 
everyone is pretty much talking 

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about. 
There's trade war, there might 

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be greater conflict, and I hope 
not. 

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If that does happen, I think 
it's going to throw a lot of 

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climate work into question. 
It's one of the narratives that 

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I actually don't like so much 
about the reshoring trade war 

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discussion and how it might 
impact climate change. 

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Because if there is war, 
especially at the level that 

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reshoring might be useful for, 
it will be the most disruptive 

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set of policies possible for 
avoiding catastrophic climate 

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change. 
Great power conflict and war 

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would be an immense wrong turn. 
Looked at only from the 

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perspective of climate change, 
nothing good is happening for 

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climate during a time of great 
power war. 

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Short of that, though, while 
larger political units are 

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thinking about trade policy and 
strategic advantage and various 

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theaters of war and conflict, 
there is a lot of opportunity 

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for smaller political units to 
step up to make sure that carbon

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removal and other types of 
climate action can take place at

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smaller levels. 
That we can learn from, that we 

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can grow from, and that is 
incredibly valuable work. 

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I'm very happy to be involved 
with the City Cdr initiative as 

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a strategic advisor, working on 
communications and knitting 

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together the various comms 
threads of this project. 

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That's been super fun for me. 
I'm honored to be working on 

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something I find to be so 
important, and I think Christian

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is very clever in the way that 
he's approaching this entire 

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topic area. 
If you'd like to get more 

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involved, there are links in the
show notes to do so. 

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There's also I Feel Like. 
The show requires like a link to

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The Federalist Papers and. 
We talked a lot about, I mean, 

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you can probably tell if you've 
read James C Scott, a lot of my 

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my thinking comes through 
understanding someone like Jane 

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Jacobs and Robert Moses fights 
over the shape of New York, 

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urban living and things like 
that. 

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So if you are intrigued by any 
of these questions, cool. 

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We would probably be friends in 
real life because these are 

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fascinating questions for me and
the links are in the show notes.

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Also, if you love this show, 
please consider becoming a paid 

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subscriber $5.00 a month. 
It's ad free for all of the 

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programmatic ads that Spotify 
slips in. 

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There's also bonus content. 
There won't be bonus content for

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this show, but a couple of the 
shows before this have had bonus

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content. 
I try to make sure that the good

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stuff that doesn't fit into the 
main show ends up still being 

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able to be listened. 
To you by paid subscribers. 

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It helps make this show a 
reasonable, feasible thing for 

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me to continue doing. 
So thank you for doing that. 

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Short of that, a great rating 
review on Apple Podcasts and 

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Spotify is also really helpful 
to me. 

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If you could take a minute right
now, open your podcast app, 

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whatever it is, and give me the 
full rating and review. 

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If that is an option, that would
be terrific. 

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In any case, here is Christian. 
I hope you enjoy. 

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00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,000
Christiana, it seems like every 
couple days I see another 

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announcement of yet another city
that has joined the city Cdr 

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initiative. 
I'm getting fatigued by them. 

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Can you? 
Can you consolidate all of these

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Dang announcements? 
No, just kidding, I love it. 

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Yeah, totally. 
No. 

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And I guess maybe the starting 
board is to acknowledge that we 

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don't have some kind of, you 
know, organization that we set 

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up and unfold on the way you 
press the button. 

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No, you know, instead we're on a
journey. 

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You know, we're building a plane
while flying it. 

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And there's all these new cities
and organizations coming on 

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board. 
And it turns out that, you know,

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instead of the kind of small 
plane we thought we were 

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building, it is becoming some 
massive jumbo jet. 

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And and that's why, you know, a 
lot of cities perhaps get a 

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sense of FOMO. 
That's one thing. 

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But on the other hand, I think 
the reality is just that cities 

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are looking at the topic of 
carbon removal, are wondering, 

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you know, how they are going to 
address their residual emissions

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or are wondering how they could 
leverage more climate finance 

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for their, you know, adaptation 
and reduction efforts where 

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synergies can be realized and so
forth. 

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And so please promise me that 
you don't chew now, just yet, 

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because there's so much more to 
come. 

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No, I'm entirely joking, I think
people. 

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Who do not? 
Work on policy. 

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Imagine that interacting with 
any sort of governmental body 

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takes a very long time, is very 
conservative, making decisions 

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requires stakeholder approvals 
that are complex, And yet it 

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seems like you just unlocked a 
torrent of cities who care about

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this obscure weird little field 
of carbon removal. 

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I didn't even know cities cared 
about it this much. 

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And you're attracting some 
serious municipalities here like

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you're getting Phoenix. 
You know this thing is not 

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Amsterdam. 
Just signed up too. 

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Yeah, like bigger ones like 
Amsterdam, Tito, Ecuador, San 

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Francisco, Baltimore, Zurich, 
Sydney, Yeah. 

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So, so, so larger 
municipalities. 

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But, but mind you, you know, the
whole idea is that it's a kind 

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of universal initiative. 
And we believe that every city 

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has the agency to act. 
And not just cities, in fact, 

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also, you know, county 
governments or provincial 

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governments, though the focus is
initially on cities. 

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Every city has the agency to act
on this, irrespective of their 

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00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,640
size, geographical locations, 
legal competencies, fiscal 

232
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,320
competencies and so forth. 
It's just a matter of 

233
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,600
understanding what is your 
advantage point as a city. 

234
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,920
And that may be, you know, that 
of a city that can be the 

235
00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,760
strategizer, you know, being at 
the heart of a car removal push 

236
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,080
or if you just don't have the 
means, you know, all the, all 

237
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:10,400
the way. 
At the other end, the spectrum, 

238
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we've identified a role for 
cities as a as an enabler or as 

239
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:18,200
a facilitator or convener. 
In fact, we called it that, you 

240
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,640
know, allows the city to pursue 
Cdr, but by bringing together 

241
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,280
the relevant players that can 
actually take the action. 

242
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,640
There are various roles in in in
between. 

243
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,000
Why do such, you know, cities 
sign up? 

244
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,080
I mean, first and foremost, I 
think it's important to say that

245
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,320
we are not asking them to put 
down money. 

246
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,200
We're not asking them to go 
quickly. 

247
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That'd be great. 
But The thing is, you know, most

248
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cities are strapped for cash. 
You know, they don't have a lot 

249
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,160
of money. 
In fact, that is also why 

250
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,680
they're often overlooked, you 
know, in, in, in, in, in terms 

251
00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:59,200
of sort of at times in terms of 
climate action writ large, but 

252
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,160
certainly in the case of carbon 
removal, they have little to 

253
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,560
spend. 
But there are other reasons. 

254
00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,480
And then we'll get into that why
they are so important. 

255
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,560
But for now, we have just 
created a low bar to entry, 

256
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,920
which is to say that you know, 
we need them to support our 

257
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,800
opportunity baselining phase by 
actually providing the data to 

258
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,320
ground truth all of our insights
and recommendations that 

259
00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,080
ultimately provides the 
foundation for setting up the 

260
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,200
capacity building program and 
the investment mobilization 

261
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,920
program. 
I imagine lay people think about

262
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:36,440
climate policy mostly at the 
level of international politics.

263
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,680
the United Nations, they're 
thinking about COP. 

264
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,240
I don't think people's first 
association with climate policy 

265
00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,000
are cities. 
I imagine you would agree with 

266
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,600
that, but it is something that 
you would like to change. 

267
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,160
Am I framing that? 
OK, Do you like that 

268
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:51,520
understanding? 
Do you think I'm on to something

269
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:57,680
with that? 
To some extent, but let's, you 

270
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,280
know, nuance it a little bit, 
which I should say as a former 

271
00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,960
lobbyist, EU energy and climate 
policy. 

272
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:10,400
So I've been sort of down the 
road of hardcore nitty gritty 

273
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:15,720
policy making in, you know the 
well, let's not get too far into

274
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:20,400
this, but the, you know, unseen 
rooms under the European 

275
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,640
Commission buildings and stuff. 
This is not what cities do, 

276
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,440
right? 
They don't make that kind of 

277
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,920
policy. 
In fact, I think what what 

278
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,520
cities do is slightly different.
They to a large extent they have

279
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,400
to fulfill, you know, national 
level policies or state level 

280
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,520
policies or all of this tends to
sort of cascade down. 

281
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,560
Imagine it from the perspective 
of the Paris Agreement, let's 

282
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,240
say that's sort of a, you know, 
piece that has been agreed 

283
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,880
multilaterally, OK, this is what
we need to achieve. 

284
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,800
You know, these are the targets,
the objectives, and subsequently

285
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,320
national governments, or in the 
case of the EU, supranational 

286
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,920
government, right, develops a 
set of policies, then national 

287
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,720
governments develops a set of 
policies that implements those 

288
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,560
supranational policies. 
The state level governments 

289
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,640
implement policies that that 
connect up with those national 

290
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,920
level policies. 
And so there's this whole string

291
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,400
of policy making along different
governance layers. 

292
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,360
And when it comes to cities, you
know, the tools they have at 

293
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,440
their disposal, first and 
foremost difference very vastly 

294
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,160
per per city. 
You know, some may be able to 

295
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:27,880
levy taxes, others not. 
You know, some may be able to 

296
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,360
drive building codes and do 
their own zoning policies, 

297
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,240
others not. 
Some may be able to do zoning 

298
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:39,360
for municipalities within the 
vicinity of their own, you know,

299
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,440
municipality because of, you 
know, whatever kind of set up in

300
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,280
a given county, for example. 
So it is more, and that's what 

301
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,280
we're trying to identify is, is 
it's more about sort of what is 

302
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:56,800
the, the, the toolkit of a city.
And that is different from the 

303
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,520
tool kit of a national 
government. 

304
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:06,440
And nobody has ever investigated
in depth how the tools and 

305
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,480
instruments that a city has as 
its at its disposal, you know, 

306
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,200
can be leveraged for the purpose
of advancing, you know, Cdr. 

307
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,720
And so that is sort of one side 
of the the coin of what we're 

308
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,000
trying to to investigate, You 
know, what is the capacity to 

309
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,960
act for cities on something like
carbon removal? 

310
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,280
There seems to be so much 
heterogeneity in how these 

311
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,880
different size political units 
are nested within each other, 

312
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,600
especially by country, compared 
that to the international level 

313
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:45,960
where we have converged upon the
the state formations shelling 

314
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,320
point of the nation state. 
Like the entire world is 

315
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:49,880
composed essentially of nation 
states. 

316
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,320
There aren't really empires by 
name anymore as nation states. 

317
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,920
But if you have cities and 
counties and states, but others 

318
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,640
have provinces, some might skip 
counties entirely. 

319
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,840
Some cities may be very 
autonomous, others might be 

320
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,120
enacting with their higher body 
demands of them. 

321
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,240
Does that not make the work much
more complex than than maybe 

322
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:13,680
working at the international 
level? 

323
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,000
Yes, but we didn't get into this
business to do easy stuff. 

324
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,160
So that's one point and the 
second is efficient. 

325
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,840
I like a good challenge. 
This is one that's not many 

326
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:36,320
people have embarked on in, you 
know, plus national governments,

327
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,160
the international level. 
We have sufficient folks, you 

328
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,760
know, focusing on that. 
And that's critically important.

329
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:47,840
You know, no city can do truly 
impactful, meaningful stuff if 

330
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,840
national governments don't 
provide the framework to to do 

331
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,000
that though, you know, I must 
say, you know, you're in the 

332
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,040
case of the US, obviously the 
federal government is sort of 

333
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,680
stepping back on a lot of this 
stuff and, and, and state level 

334
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,040
governments are are trying to 
sort of in some cases step 

335
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,040
forward. 
And in that context, I believe 

336
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,360
that there is a very important 
role for for cities to play as 

337
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:15,080
ambassadors of climate action By
yeah, by, by, by, by forging 

338
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:20,520
your hands, really. 
And, and, you know, at times in 

339
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,560
direct opposition to national 
government's policy. 

340
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,360
There lies a real opportunity 
here in the US in the current 

341
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,440
environment. 
But, you know, by and large, 

342
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,120
there is a lot of heterogeneity 
between cities. 

343
00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:41,200
That is true. 
Yet, if you look at the world, 

344
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,840
I'd say that after, on average, 
after national governments, city

345
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,800
governments are the most 
powerful governance layer around

346
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,400
that is able to drive truly 
systemic, you know, policy. 

347
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,960
Now that may not be the case in 
the US, you know, but that is 

348
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,760
the case on average in most 
countries in the world. 

349
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,400
Wow, I've never thought about it
quite like that. 

350
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,920
I suppose even in the US there's
cases where someone like the 

351
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,760
mayor of New York City may be 
more powerful than certain 

352
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,320
governors of less prominent 
states. 

353
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:19,560
So like maybe that's the case 
where that. 

354
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,440
Happened. 
Yeah, but they're all, they're 

355
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,240
probably also other countries in
the world though, where maybe 

356
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:32,920
Cape Town is more powerful than 
the province itself or other 

357
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,880
provinces just by virtue of that
alone. 

358
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,800
The size of the dominance 
culturally, economically is, is 

359
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,360
that kind of what you're 
describing or is it something 

360
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:40,640
else? 
Yeah. 

361
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,320
No, no, that's exactly it. 
And so there is that variety, 

362
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,120
that is true. 
But you know, it's a matter of 

363
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,080
how can we for our purposes, 
right? 

364
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:53,040
How can we create a type 
typology of cities that allows 

365
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:58,200
us to differentiate them, 
categorize them in a way that we

366
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,680
can provide them with the kind 
of toolkit, the policy 

367
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,640
opportunities, the tools, 
instruments available to them 

368
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,280
that are tailored to these 
specific categories of cities. 

369
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,840
And so we can only do that as 
we, you know, source for data. 

370
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,920
This is not some kind of that's 
of research exercise solely. 

371
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,320
This has to be fed through real 
life data and that's what we are

372
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,920
doing. 
And you know, under the 

373
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:25,720
subsequent capacity building 
phase, there will be a lot of 

374
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,000
that tailoring according to 
these categories. 

375
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,600
So the typology of cities that 
we're creating. 

376
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,680
Can you explain what kind of 
taxonomy you're working with for

377
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,880
cities and also which kinds of 
data are they providing? 

378
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,880
Yeah. 
So the data we were asking at 

379
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,600
the moment we're, you know, I'll
be honest, we're the kind of 

380
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,600
beggars can't be choosers 
situations, right. 

381
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,120
And that means, you know, a few 
things. 

382
00:21:54,720 --> 00:22:01,360
But one thing that it means is, 
is that not all cities have all 

383
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:07,680
the data available that we're 
asking the requirements for a 

384
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:13,440
particular city in North America
to let's say track greenhouse 

385
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:18,880
gas emissions are vastly 
different from European cities. 

386
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:25,000
That's just one take and many 
cities in the US are not keeping

387
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,160
a very details greenhouse gas 
inventory. 

388
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:34,600
I can tell you that in addition,
many cities in countries in the 

389
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:39,880
global S are generally not able 
to source all the data that they

390
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,200
may need because of various 
reasons such as capacity 

391
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,520
constraints or whatnot. 
And so the data we are asking is

392
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:53,200
granular but inevitably a little
bit patchy when we, you know, 

393
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,160
have to work with that. 
And it straddles everything 

394
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,880
between questions around 
governance set up, How are these

395
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:08,400
administrations set up in a way 
that it's hampers or promotes 

396
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,440
their capacity to act on carbon 
removal? 

397
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,280
Think about this in terms of 
sort of, are there opportunities

398
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,160
for cross departmental task 
forces to be set up? 

399
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,200
You know, where is there a first
and foremost, is there a 

400
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,600
sustainability director or not? 
You know, is there a, you know, 

401
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,040
resilience officer or not, you 
know, and where is this, is this

402
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,080
sustainability director 
embedded? 

403
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,440
Is there a dedicated 
sustainability department or is 

404
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,760
this person embedded in some 
kind of economic unit or, you 

405
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,200
know, all of these things matter
in terms of a city's capacity to

406
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:41,760
act. 
And therefore, in terms of sort 

407
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,640
of the recommendations that we 
can give around how to innovate 

408
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,040
your governance set up in order 
to be, you know, more, more or 

409
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,120
able to, to act. 
Other questions revolve around 

410
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,800
policy and regulation. 
You know, how is all of this 

411
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,960
organized, not just climate 
policy, but also non climate 

412
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,160
policy and, and allowing us to 
understand sort of where Cdr 

413
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,120
objectives might be embedded in 
in non climate policies. 

414
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,400
And a third set of questions 
that we're asking is what 

415
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,840
technical that revolves around 
the like design features of 

416
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,000
urban systems and particular 
urban infrastructure such as 

417
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,280
your wastewater, you know, 
processing facility or desalina 

418
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,040
tion plant. 
Or you know, the generally you 

419
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,600
know, how material is sourced 
for the roads that are being 

420
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,240
built or the age of your 
building stock and the 

421
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:37,000
renovation cycles of that. 
All of which aims to point at 

422
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,440
real opportunities for 
integrating, you know, Cdr in a 

423
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,760
way that is different from what 
what we have done so far. 

424
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,720
Namely, not just pureplay stand 
alone, you know, great shiny, 

425
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:55,800
flashy Cdr facilities somewhere 
in the middle of nowhere. 

426
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:03,720
But you know, Cdr solutions that
are integrated in our everyday 

427
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,040
living environment on the 
doorstep or front yard of of 

428
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,280
people and, and, and I believe 
that, you know, we'll speak a 

429
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,280
bit about that I think, but, but
I believe that is very important

430
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:20,680
because it's so distinct from 
the way that the Cdr market or 

431
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,560
space has developed so far in 
terms of project deployment. 

432
00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:30,160
Does interacting with so many 
different types of polities make

433
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:36,000
you more supportive of the idea 
that Poly centrism, complexity, 

434
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,320
diversity of governance models 
is a good thing? 

435
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,680
Or do you secretly? 
Or maybe not so secretly, You're

436
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,240
in for legibility, 
standardization, clear org 

437
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,200
charts that are the same across 
cities. 

438
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,160
There are trade-offs either way 
you go. 

439
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,360
What does your heart call out 
for? 

440
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,040
Like with such questions, I 
mean, they are sort of rabbit 

441
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,400
holes, right? 
I mean, we can go quite deep 

442
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,800
into the trade-offs of fun or, 
or, or the other, but, but 

443
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:08,080
probably the reality is that, 
you know, it matters less that 

444
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,960
we standardize the way that such
administrations are are are set 

445
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:19,280
up then that we standardize the 
way that they realize impact. 

446
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,920
Put it differently, we want to 
make sure that the way that 

447
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,640
cities account for negative 
emissions in the greenhouse gas 

448
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,120
inventory is standardized across
the board, right across all 

449
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:35,680
other cities to be able to make 
it comparable as data force, to 

450
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,680
be able to feed it directly into
national, you know, NDCS in a 

451
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,920
standardized way. 
All of this is important 

452
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,000
ultimately from a climate 
science standpoint because 

453
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,760
otherwise, you know, if it's not
comparable data, we cannot 

454
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,000
properly track the impact on on 
the climate, which is what we 

455
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,960
are doing all of this for at the
end of the day, right. 

456
00:26:54,320 --> 00:27:00,440
But how that action is realized,
what kind of setup comes before 

457
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,520
it, all of that has to be 
grounded in a local context to 

458
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,040
make it as powerful as possible,
as effective as possible with 

459
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,000
the right kind of, you know, in 
the end, social buy in, right? 

460
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,880
Because because you know, none 
of this can be some kind of top 

461
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,600
down effort if we wanted to lead
to a kind of exponential scale 

462
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,680
that we are after. 
So I would say, you know, ensure

463
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:30,360
diversity of action, but 
meanwhile guarantee 

464
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,520
standardization of, of impact 
and, and how we read impact. 

465
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,080
I like that answer. 
It's difficult in places like 

466
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,480
the US, where you are now seeing
potentially A constitutional 

467
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,880
crisis around how much 
federalism we're willing to 

468
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,360
tolerate. 
The Trump administration's been 

469
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,520
very critical, to put it 
lightly. 

470
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,640
Various cities that have 
sanctuary city policies that do 

471
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:02,960
not check immigration status of 
residents, and I even see 

472
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,040
rhetoric being used of 
withholding disaster funding 

473
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:10,800
from blue states during times of
crisis. 

474
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,320
It's unclear to me to what 
degree States and cities in the 

475
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:22,000
US will be able to act 
divergently from higher national

476
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,720
polities like the US federal 
government, because it's it's 

477
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,320
also possible that rather than 
it being a beautiful case of 

478
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,160
federalism as laboratories of 
democracy, it opens them up for 

479
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,120
political retaliation. 
Do you think there is room for 

480
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:39,320
smaller units in the US right 
now to act decisively or does it

481
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,280
open up a lot of risk for city 
managers? 

482
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,880
Wow, this is a big question 
disguised as perhaps as I was. 

483
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,960
This is what? 
The podcast does Christianity 

484
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,920
you want to. 
Unit economics. 

485
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,440
OK, well, let's let, let me go 
back then to, to sort of my, my 

486
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,320
earlier days in, in political 
science then then, you know, I 

487
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:06,320
would say off the bat that in 
this is not any more about the 

488
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,360
rule of law, right? 
This is, this is about something

489
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,840
else entirely, as you say, sort 
of the risk of political 

490
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,440
retaliation and powers that the 
federal government has to, you 

491
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,320
know, to, to to, you know, 
target smaller entities. 

492
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,920
We see censorship already. 
We see that certain cities 

493
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,920
wouldn't dare to put their head 
above the parapet. 

494
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,160
Yeah, of course. 
And certainly in red states. 

495
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,240
I approached a lot of cities in 
red States and the far majority 

496
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,520
never bothered to answer. 
Why is that not because these 

497
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,400
cities themselves wouldn't 
really care about the kind of 

498
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,120
action. 
You know, many of them may be 

499
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,400
sort of, let's say blue cities 
and it sees the red. 

500
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,560
But I cannot think of it in any 
other way than than a kind of 

501
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,520
self censorship, right? 
Kind of fear. 

502
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,680
They're they're sort of, you 
know, forcing in in in in in 

503
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,200
into not acting. 
But I guess you know, what we 

504
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,840
can say is that, and then I'm 
taking this from a kind of 

505
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,240
political activist standpoint, 
right? 

506
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,440
You know, all the rights, 
everything that you think you 

507
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:19,680
have today, including as a city 
government, you know, maybe lost

508
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,760
tomorrow if you don't stand up 
and and actually use those those

509
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,560
rights. 
So we are at risk also city 

510
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,520
governments and certainly also 
states in the US of certain 

511
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,440
rights being, I don't know how 
you would call it clawed back, 

512
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,600
right? 
It's like the federal system is 

513
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,360
under threat. 
And this also relates to city's 

514
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,320
agency, of course. 
But if we don't execute the 

515
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:54,640
agency, you know it will be as a
it, it will die in darkness. 

516
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,200
And die in darkness. 
Well, it's just one of the 

517
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,640
things about the US Constitution
that it's fundamentally 

518
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,960
intention. 
Very few people have a 

519
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,720
principled position on something
like states rights. 

520
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,400
It's often invoked 
instrumentally when it's 

521
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,880
something that an individual 
state wants and it's against the

522
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,360
will of the federal government. 
People tend to favor states 

523
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,240
rights when they're in power at 
the federal level. 

524
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,080
They want to enforce their 
desires upon all the states. 

525
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,080
And I feel that on both left and
right, I haven't seen a 

526
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,480
consistent application of do we 
care about decentralization or 

527
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,680
our vision of justice being 
enacted. 

528
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,160
And so this states rights versus
14th Amendment fight is sort of 

529
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,280
a fundamental tension that is 
irresolvable given that you live

530
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,160
in a country that is diverse, 
that disagrees about some very 

531
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,600
important basic issues about 
what it means to be a citizen in

532
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,360
the US. 
So I'm not surprised basically 

533
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,440
that you couldn't come to a 
final conclusion and solve 

534
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,080
America. 
For us, it's a it's a big 

535
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:52,640
question. 
Like we looked at Europe like 

536
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,680
the Napoleonic Code was an 
attempt to get rid of medieval 

537
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,920
rules and regulations of weird 
overlapping polities and just be

538
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,400
like, cool, this is the new way 
we do things. 

539
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,840
It actually has like, it's the 
metric system, but for law. 

540
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,560
And it's very, you know, orderly
in America. 

541
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,560
We we built in tension in a way 
that does not centralized in a 

542
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,320
in a neat way. 
So yeah, we went into political 

543
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:18,040
science mode. 
Exactly. 

544
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:23,600
So it's messy, you know, but 
messiness allows for ambition, 

545
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,720
allows for leaders to stand up, 
forge ahead, pace their own ass.

546
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,440
You know, a lot of this is not 
written and especially not in 

547
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,800
this time. 
So, you know, I'm not an 

548
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,360
American and I certainly don't 
have to expect to become one any

549
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,400
day, any day soon. 
But you know, I would, I would 

550
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:48,520
say to anyone listening here is 
that yes, you know, the future 

551
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:53,400
is unwritten and when it comes 
to carbon removal, ever more so 

552
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,080
I finally, you know, if it's not
done here, it will be done 

553
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,120
elsewhere. 
It's already being done 

554
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,880
elsewhere. 
And not that momentum will 

555
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,360
continue to grow. 
And it's generally a good thing,

556
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,440
of course. 
But I would like to see that a 

557
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,760
lot of the capital, a lot of the
innovation, a lot of the talent 

558
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,640
is retained here in this country
where it's a lot of it 

559
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,520
originated. 
And that can only happen if if 

560
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,240
we have those, those leaders 
amongst cities, amongst states, 

561
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,720
amongst project developers, 
amongst NGOs, you know, amongst 

562
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,800
Congress people in Congress, of 
course, you know, but the more 

563
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:38,160
people sell censor themselves, 
you know, the higher the risk of

564
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:44,480
all of that, that good stuff, 
just, you know, going elsewhere.

565
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,080
That's. 
One of the reasons why I was so 

566
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,880
excited to support the City Cdr 
initiative is that overall, 

567
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,560
either way you go, 
centralization, 

568
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,760
decentralization, they each have
their own pathologies and 

569
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,520
frustrations like anything on 
earth essentially does. 

570
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,840
But I tend to trust the emergent
principles of complexity that 

571
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,760
you know, smaller units can act 
other people will emulate. 

572
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,400
The good stuff tends to filter 
up 1 hopes, and that's a really 

573
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,920
powerful thing rather than 
having to depend upon all 

574
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,760
important decisions coming from 
the top down and filtering down 

575
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,239
that direction. 
There are you can name examples 

576
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,520
of the top down approach being 
like really great for humanity 

577
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,520
to in certain cases, but overall
I tend to prefer that. 

578
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,639
So I'm very attracted 
intellectually to what you're 

579
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:32,960
trying to build. 
Yeah, no. 

580
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,960
And I fully agree with you. 
And then and I would like to 

581
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,679
take it a little bit further, 
which is to say that, you know, 

582
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:44,120
it's not either or often a lot 
of the, let's say large scale, 

583
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,080
heavy-handed top down stuff, you
know, that we also want in the 

584
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,920
case of CDI, you know, we want 
big policy initiatives. 

585
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:59,080
You know, we want big, you know,
public incentive programs to 

586
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,440
come on stream, you know, 
because otherwise we'll never 

587
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,840
move beyond the innovation phase
that that that we are still in. 

588
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,920
But none of that will come to 
fruition in the absence of 

589
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,560
social legitimacy, in the 
absence of citizens that are 

590
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,880
also voters, you know, agreeing 
that this is a good thing to do.

591
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,560
And where can we make the case 
to citizens, to voters? 

592
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,480
You know, that Cdr is something 
that requires such a big policy 

593
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,360
effort. 
It's at the city skill. 

594
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,040
There's no other skill that we 
can do that truly. 

595
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:30,720
You know, it's in the front 
yards. 

596
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,520
We need projects, showcase 
projects in the front yards of 

597
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,400
everyday citizens. 
We need front yard narratives 

598
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,000
that are deployed within cities.
We need people to, to make, to, 

599
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,440
to feel that it's tangible, to 
feel that they benefit from it 

600
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,400
directly, to feel that they can 
talk about it, you know, in 

601
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,800
their own words, in a way that 
connects with them and their 

602
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,880
personal needs. 
You know, we haven't gone there 

603
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,280
as the Cdr community, but it is,
it is the next frontier that's 

604
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,680
and, and, and we hope that with 
the city Cdr initiative, you 

605
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,760
know, we are paving the way for 
others to follow and follow us 

606
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:11,000
as, as we, you know, as we 
pioneer what I consider to be 

607
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,400
Cdr, you know, for the purpose 
of creating a positive living 

608
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,680
environment. 
Fantastic segue. 

609
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,520
I was just about to ask you 
about that. 

610
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,440
We have an expression. 
You probably heard it all 

611
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,840
politics is local. 
You familiar with that? 

612
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,560
You're trying to make all Cdr is
local a thing, it sounds like. 

613
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,280
What can cities do like Cdr at 
the city level? 

614
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,400
I imagine people can infer some 
of what that means, but there's 

615
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,520
several things inside of the 
proposals that we worked on 

616
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,360
together that I expect are not 
the first top of mind thing 

617
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,520
people think of. 
What actually would it look like

618
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,160
for Cdr to be embedded at 
municipal levels? 

619
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,880
Yeah, A first we should say 
something about sort of define 

620
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,480
Cdr, right. 
So, so we are not talking solely

621
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,560
about durable or permanent Cdr 
here. 

622
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,480
We are talking about the the 
full spectrum of Cdr from more 

623
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,160
temporary solutions that involve
often sort of interactions with 

624
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:13,760
natural processes to more more 
durable and permanent forms of 

625
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,240
of Cdr. 
Now we are, as I said, on a 

626
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:19,480
journey and so we are exploring 
the full sort of breadth of what

627
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,200
I call, you know, urban Cdr 
pathways, that's to say project 

628
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:28,200
value chains that either involve
the capturing of CO2 from the 

629
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:33,120
atmosphere within the city or 
the storage within the city or 

630
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,840
both taking place within the 
city. 

631
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:41,560
Now what we have seen so far is 
that there's a wide spectrum of 

632
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,320
of methods and some you already 
know, they involve integration 

633
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,360
if we're talking about more 
durable city or they involve 

634
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,320
integration in existing urban 
systems. 

635
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,960
So lately a lot of people have 
been talking about, you know, 

636
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,800
integrating Cdr solutions in 
wastewater processing facilities

637
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,960
or plants, right? 
Can lime wastewater, you know, 

638
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,680
there, there there are other 
ways of, of turning sewage 

639
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,480
sludge into biochar, which can 
subsequently be, you know, 

640
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,640
distributed well as one does 
with biochar anywhere on, on 

641
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,880
sort of land, but can also be 
integrated into construction 

642
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,160
materials which can be 
subsequently used in building. 

643
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,840
You know, the building stock in 
a given city. 

644
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:28,080
There is there, there, there is 
obviously more innovative deck 

645
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,240
opportunities like integrating 
it with the HVAC systems. 

646
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,160
There are ways of doing enhanced
rock watering and, and deploying

647
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,760
this on rooftops and, and, and, 
and, and sort of gravel roads 

648
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,640
and, and public lands. 
There are obviously ways of, 

649
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,680
let's say enhanced carbonation, 
let's say of construction and 

650
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,960
demolition waste, which is 
subsequently used as aggregates 

651
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,920
in construction materials, which
are used in the built 

652
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,720
environment, making, you know, 
ultimately what we're creating. 

653
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:03,640
Then a city that is not an 
emitter. 

654
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,720
This is a little bit sort of 
into the future, but what I hope

655
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:13,400
we would be able to, to create 
is, is, is carbon sink cities 

656
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:21,920
where, you know, they store more
CO2 than they emit and are net 

657
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,480
negative themselves. 
That, that, that is sort of the,

658
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,640
the ambition, that is the, that 
is the mission and, and that 

659
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,560
coincides with, with making 
cities. 

660
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,560
And it's another concept, nature
positive, like integrating 

661
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,920
nature blue and, and, and green 
infrastructure, you know, 

662
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,800
directly within cities, which 
has significant carbon removal, 

663
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,320
you know, benefits and 
components, of course, as well 

664
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,680
as integration with adaptation 
policies and obviously, you 

665
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,040
know, mental health, you know, 
priorities, right. 

666
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,520
So, so the variety or the 
portfolio let's say of urban Cdr

667
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:06,360
pathways is pretty vast. 
The opportunity is significant. 

668
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,120
Study by the Poster Research 
Institute in Berlin at the end 

669
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,520
of last year estimated that at 
over a giga tons that could be 

670
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,920
realized, giga tons of removals 
that could be realized on an 

671
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,840
annual basis by 2050. 
And that was just a sort of slim

672
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:29,320
set of of of solutions. 
So the potential is big and it 

673
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,560
does mean that we should look at
cities not as some kind of, you 

674
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:40,000
know, units that are static now,
but rather as, and I'm, I'm just

675
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,440
kind of familiar with this. 
I'm not an urbanist or anything,

676
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,680
an urban planner. 
But you know, this concept of 

677
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,600
looking at cities as, as 
organisms, as something that is 

678
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,280
called the concept of urban 
metabolism, that, you know, 

679
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,600
absorb materials and exude 
materials that absorb that, that

680
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,760
emit CO2 and, and evidently you 
should also absorb CO2, a 

681
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,920
missing component in the, in 
the, in the theories of, of 

682
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,720
urban metabolism. 
And so when we think about it in

683
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:10,840
those terms, then the city is 
not just some kind of static 

684
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,320
unit, but rather is one that is 
characterized by transient 

685
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,480
spaces between the urban 
environments, the peri urban 

686
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,600
environment and the rural 
environment. 

687
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,240
These are totally connected, you
know, not just in terms of 

688
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:27,640
material flows, in terms of 
emission flows, but also in 

689
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,760
terms of culture, in terms of 
politics, in terms of, you know,

690
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:36,000
ultimately, I guess, our 
capacity to act on something as 

691
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:37,600
as challenging as climate 
change. 

692
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,720
Beautiful answer. 
I like that we. 

693
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:47,800
Paired so much of this work with
resilience, with beauty, with 

694
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,520
the enhancement of the urban 
experience too. 

695
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:55,600
It's not just how do we remove 
carbon, it's about tying in 

696
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,360
carbon removal to values that 
people do hold that either makes

697
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,760
them more resilient in the face 
of drought or other 

698
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,760
environmental risk that they 
might face. 

699
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,040
It's about adding shade, it's 
about making their environment 

700
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,440
more beautiful, helping with 
mental health, things like that.

701
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,400
That there is often money and 
support for that may allow for 

702
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,560
some amount of double dipping or
just something like multiple 

703
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,000
policies achieved at the same 
time that had that sort of 

704
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,560
overlapping goodness to it. 
I really like that approach. 

705
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,720
I think that was a very 
intentional choice by you too. 

706
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,040
I guess what we were trying to 
do is realize this impact 

707
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:42,320
multiplication, right? 
So money that can be used to 

708
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,320
realize multiple urban 
priorities. 

709
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,160
And the way to do that from the 
perspective of Cdr, what we have

710
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,520
found with cities is to present 
them with the opportunities to 

711
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:58,160
integrate Cdr or embed Cdr in 
non Cdr policies in a way that 

712
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,720
it enhances their ability to 
meet the priorities related to 

713
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:04,520
that. 
That policy, whether it is a 

714
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,040
waste management policy, whether
it is a mental health policy, 

715
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,560
whether it is an urban greening 
policy, whether it is a, you 

716
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,520
know, jobs creation policy or 
whatnot, right. 

717
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:19,120
And that is how we are 
approaching this and that is 

718
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,880
what struck A chord with these 
cities. 

719
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:29,120
And, and now we are, you know, 
on this, this journey of, of 

720
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,000
discovering as well, not just in
the physical opportunities of 

721
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,040
integrating Cdr in the urban 
environment, but also, you know,

722
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,760
the, the, the, let's say, 
political opportunities to 

723
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:44,640
integrate Cdr in policies that, 
you know, almost horizontally, 

724
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:49,240
right, policies that would not 
otherwise be used for climate 

725
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:52,560
action. 
We feel that there lies a huge 

726
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:58,040
opportunity, missed opportunity 
so far that can be replicated at

727
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,400
the national level as well. 
So that connects up with this 

728
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,680
ideals and cities and 
laboratories of of democracy to 

729
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,280
some extent, right. 
So experimenting in that sense 

730
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:12,920
with with policy and yeah, 
cities that have so far signed 

731
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,720
up seem to agree with the idea 
that it's good to go down this 

732
00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:22,200
path rather than say we need a 
stand alone Cdr policy that is 

733
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,680
separate and requires an 
additional separate budgets that

734
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,400
we just don't have a city 
government strength I'm. 

735
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,600
Going to bring it back to 
political science for a second. 

736
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:39,360
I hope you don't, please. 
I think one of the the risks 

737
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,360
here that can take place even at
the city level is an over 

738
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,360
reliance upon central planning 
and city policy in a way that I 

739
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:51,520
think about Canberra, Brasilia, 
Ankara, he's like essentially 

740
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,400
planned cities that are not that
livable. 

741
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,160
They're very legible, they make 
sense, you can look at them, 

742
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,120
they're very well planned, but 
they don't have that human 

743
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:04,360
organic livability factor to it.
I also think about Robert Moses 

744
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,360
fighting with Jane Jacobs over 
the highways in in New York and 

745
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,200
how that worked. 
How do we make sure that 

746
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,960
mentality doesn't come into 
carbon removal at the city 

747
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,080
level? 
Although I, I wonder if you're 

748
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:16,880
salivating about that level of 
power. 

749
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,360
Would you like to be Robert 
Moses or Lake or Busey? 

750
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,600
But for carbon removal, is that 
your secret dream? 

751
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,760
I mean, you know, Bossier is her
role that as a hero, right? 

752
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,840
And in in terms of urban design 
and architecture, whereas Robert

753
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,440
Moses is largely vilified in 
retrospect as a guy that 

754
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,640
realized a lot of stuff, but 
perhaps at the expense of, you 

755
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,120
know, the ways that politics 
should be done and, and, you 

756
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,160
know, rule of law and, and and 
whatnot. 

757
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:54,840
But to answer your question 
directly, no, we don't. 

758
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:00,640
We, first of all, I don't want 
to be that person, But secondly,

759
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:07,280
we do not promote the idea of 
building new cities in the 

760
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:13,040
desert in order to be able to 
make them, you know, net zero or

761
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,280
net negative, right? 
No, no, no, no. 

762
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,240
It's the whole. 
It's the whole like it is all 

763
00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:23,800
the editor of this initiative is
about identifying physical 

764
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,760
opportunities and identifying 
policy opportunities to 

765
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,480
integrate Cdr into what already 
exists today. 

766
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,880
That is our, our, our, our, our,
our light motif, right? 

767
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,000
And yeah, sure. 
You know, build a new city in, 

768
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,200
in the Arabian desert or, or, 
or, you know, whatever. 

769
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,640
I mean, it's great, good, you 
know, do it, right? 

770
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,720
But but we have these legacy 
cities all over the place, 

771
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,000
everywhere, right? 
That's what we need to deal 

772
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,760
with. 
It's kind of innovative, 

773
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,640
futuristic places where in the 
end, you know who truly lives 

774
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,040
there, right? 
It's not built for everyday 

775
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,760
citizens. 
We're still building those 

776
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,560
though, like I see layers kind 
of smart cities that happen in 

777
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,760
South Korea. 
People are trying to do these. 

778
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,880
We have the the planned 
community movement in the in the

779
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,440
US was a big thing too of like, 
how do we just before anyone 

780
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,800
lives here, how do we structure?
We can't just have lower 

781
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,280
Manhattan with its weird little 
streets. 

782
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,120
Thank you, Dutch people again 
with weird little Dutch streets 

783
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,280
and lower Manhattan. 
What if we just grid everything 

784
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,960
out and planned everything 
perfectly so that no humans need

785
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,040
to think about design ever again
or or add their impact at all 

786
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,840
here? 
That that that is still, they're

787
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,840
still happening. 
That that way of thinking has 

788
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,080
not gone away. 
I know, I know. 

789
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,720
But you know, I will tell you. 
I'm still also confused here in 

790
00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:48,120
DC. 
You know when I'm looking for a 

791
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,120
street. 
Oh my God, am I in Northeast? 

792
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,480
Southeast where? 
Which quadrant? 

793
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,040
Which quadrant? 
Then I and I might find myself a

794
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:56,840
few miles away from where I'm 
supposed to be. 

795
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,120
Planning that same way too. 
Come on, you don't get like 

796
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,920
enormous roundabouts and 
diagonal streets without some 

797
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,320
amount of geometric planning far
in advance like, you know, 

798
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:07,120
because. 
Totally. 

799
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,640
We like we need to choose a a 
place that was. 

800
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,960
I mean, all those cities exist 
because they don't want the main

801
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,160
commercial powerhouse to also be
the capital. 

802
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,840
It's just too much power. 
That's why I like it can't be 

803
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,560
Istanbul. 
It's got to be Ankara, a new 

804
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,680
city. 
It can't be Sydney or Melbourne.

805
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:23,800
It's got to be Canberra. 
We just want to make a city out 

806
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:25,720
of nothing just so there's no 
politics. 

807
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,280
Sacramento instead of instead of
San Francisco or Los Angeles 

808
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,840
team like those are how 
decisions get made seemingly, 

809
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:37,120
but then they often times. 
They're political decisions, 

810
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,080
right? 
They're politically to to to win

811
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,240
sort of political recognition. 
They're like pride projects in a

812
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:44,640
way, right. 
Like in a way. 

813
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,960
Do you see was that as well? 
It was Washington, George 

814
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,000
Washington, you know, banding 
together with Pierre Long for 

815
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,960
some French architect and 
saying, hey, I want this grand 

816
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,440
city, you know, and then this 
long files like, well, you know,

817
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,560
yeah. 
How about we take Paris as an 

818
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,720
example? 
You know, we built this massive 

819
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:05,200
avenues from iconic building to 
iconic building. 

820
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,400
Sure, you know and. 
The housemakers criticized for 

821
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,680
this, too, for the same reason. 
Because that was built so the 

822
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,880
army could crush rebellions that
Paris faces back in network 

823
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:14,760
times, Yeah. 
Yeah. 

824
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,600
These are not city citizens. 
These are not cities built for 

825
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,720
citizens, you know, And 
therefore, if we look at carbon 

826
00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:25,480
removal, we should do carbon 
removal ultimately, you know, in

827
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,040
a way that works for citizens, 
not in a way that works against 

828
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,000
them. 
Because it will bite us in the 

829
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,640
ass. 
We will not get that social 

830
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:37,880
legitimacy, that citizen buy in 
that we need to be able, at 

831
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,520
least in democracies right, to 
be able to drive large scale 

832
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:46,560
policy efforts. 
Speaking of that last point too,

833
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,840
I often see environmentally 
minded people fantasize about 

834
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:56,200
how fast Chinese projects get 
built in the in the absence of 

835
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,280
secure property rights and 
democracy. 

836
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,520
And you're like, yes, you could 
move really fast if you don't 

837
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,280
have to ask for consent for 
things or or do the difficult 

838
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,520
democratic work, but do we want 
that? 

839
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,280
It does allow for faster climate
action, but it also sacrifices 

840
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,080
many of our other values at the 
same time. 

841
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,880
I feel uncomfortable when people
are not suitably reflective by 

842
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,120
my lights with regard to that. 
Yeah, me too. 

843
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:25,920
And it's reminds me a little bit
of in a response from one city 

844
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,000
official that sadly have a 
turban removal. 

845
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,760
I, I, I really do not want some 
kind of techno utopia from being

846
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,160
realized. 
And and and that is what, you 

847
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,800
know, city officials in some 
cases associate carbon removal 

848
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,280
with. 
And to be honest, you know, that

849
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,720
is what some environmentalists 
that's, you know, think that 

850
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:53,120
that might be the only way, 
right, Wouldn't sort of disagree

851
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:54,440
with that. 
That is something we need to 

852
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,880
create because it would be the 
only way to stand the climate 

853
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,160
change. 
But obviously, as you said, at 

854
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:05,040
the expense of so much more 
that, you know, makes us, I 

855
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:06,160
guess who we are today. 
That's. 

856
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,680
True. 
Well, people want to get 

857
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:11,880
involved. 
Follow your work, support your 

858
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,160
work. 
What stage is the City Cdr 

859
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,200
initiative at right now? 
Give people something to to hang

860
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,920
on to that might be able to to 
help support this work. 

861
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,240
Yeah, of course. 
So as I said here in the first 

862
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:27,800
phase of, of what we see is 3 
phases, this is the baseline, 

863
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:29,960
the opportunity opportunity 
baseline phase. 

864
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:34,440
And and as of I think in the 
next month, we'll start 

865
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:39,640
releasing a number of let's say 
assets, city case studies, cross

866
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,800
policy fact sheets, number of 
sort of super tangible. 

867
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,320
I would see them as tools 
directed at city officials. 

868
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,320
So very practical. 
The idea is we will launch this,

869
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,640
this large report, hopefully at 
New York City Climate Week, 

870
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:59,840
which you know, benefits from 
the work with now over 15 cities

871
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:03,600
from all around the world and a 
consortium of partners of over 

872
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,880
20 partners leading Cdr players 
also putting together now a 

873
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,920
third, let's say, community of 
project and technology 

874
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,000
developers with an existing 
focus on cities to further feed 

875
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,240
technical insights and, and, and
know how into our into our work.

876
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,760
But then after that, you know, 
we'll work towards COP 30 and 

877
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:28,880
hopefully launch this capacity 
building program by that time. 

878
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,320
So, you know, in the interim, in
the interim, reach out, check, 

879
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:37,280
check our LinkedIn, you know, 
page and reach out if you have 

880
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,560
certain cities that you think 
you know could be brought on 

881
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,880
board. 
If you know of any funders that 

882
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:47,120
want to chip in helpful as well.
And, and otherwise just, you 

883
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,000
know, follow what we are doing 
and we'll be releasing lots of 

884
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:51,760
interesting stuff in the months 
to come. 

885
00:52:52,240 --> 00:52:58,640
And for project developers, you 
know, there is significant 

886
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,360
benefit in following what we're 
doing because down the line 

887
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,280
we'll be seeking to in this 
investment mobilization phase to

888
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,520
channel capital directly into 
projects within the cities that 

889
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,960
are participating in the 
capacity building program. 

890
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:20,080
So, so yeah, I'm very excited 
to, to continue down this path, 

891
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,160
to be on this journey and say 
join this journey, this 

892
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:29,000
exploratory journey as we, yeah,
as we, as we, as we pioneer Cdr 

893
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,440
for a positive living 
environment and, you know, break

894
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:36,040
new grounds. 
Thanks for being here, 

895
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:37,920
Christian. 
I've really enjoyed my time 

896
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,600
working with the city Cdr 
initiative. 

897
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:44,160
I think this is immensely 
important work, especially right

898
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,080
now. 
We're federal governments, 

899
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:48,440
National governments may be 
pulling back from climate 

900
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,000
action, at least in some parts 
of the world. 

901
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,720
I also just like the ethos of 
smaller entities being able to 

902
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:56,240
step up. 
So thank you for providing the, 

903
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:59,480
the framework, the legibility, 
the access so that they're able 

904
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,240
to do so. 
I think, I think you're doing 

905
00:54:01,240 --> 00:54:02,960
some of the most important work 
out there right now. 

906
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,040
Thanks, Ross for having me on 
the show. 

907
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,680
Really appreciate it. 
You know, I, I very much value 

908
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,240
the kind of how can I put this? 
We might be doing cutting edge 

909
00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:15,200
climate action, but you're 
you're doing cutting edge 

910
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,920
podcasting here. 
So, so thanks Ross for for 

911
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,200
batting the way asking. 
You all those bizarre questions 

912
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,160
that no one else has probably 
asked you. 

913
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:27,000
Those are the best 
conversations. 

914
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,160
I'm glad you think so. 
OK.