1 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:08,900 Hello and welcome to the reversing climate change 2 00:00:08,900 --> 00:00:11,000 podcast. I'm Ross Kenyan I am the 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,500 creative editor at Nori. Today I have with me, John 4 00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:18,100 dealio, ecosystem Ambassador for the common land, Foundation 5 00:00:18,100 --> 00:00:21,800 journalist filmmaker ecologist but a wild career you've had 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:26,200 John and for listeners you very well may have seen his quite 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,700 prominent documentaries. In particular featuring a work 8 00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:33,100 that Has been done on the Loess plateau in China, which was 9 00:00:33,100 --> 00:00:36,500 extremely degraded and under winter process of Rehabilitation 10 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:39,300 that is visually extremely striking. 11 00:00:39,300 --> 00:00:42,300 So, would not surprise me if many of our listeners have seen 12 00:00:42,300 --> 00:00:44,800 it before. And so, I'm very happy to have 13 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,200 you on the show. John, thank you very much. 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:53,000 My pleasure is mine, too. How did you end up working on 15 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,400 large-scale, ecosystem restoration? 16 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,600 I know there's a long version. Maybe we can get the truncated 17 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:00,800 one because you've had such a Worried career. 18 00:01:01,300 --> 00:01:05,500 Okay, well, I was working in journalism, I helped open the 19 00:01:05,500 --> 00:01:11,100 CBS News Bureau in China, back in the 1980s, and I worked for 20 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:14,500 CBS for a decade. So, I covered really big 21 00:01:14,500 --> 00:01:17,700 stories, like the rise of China from poverty and isolation and 22 00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:19,500 the collapse of the Soviet Union. 23 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,200 And then in the middle of the 90s, I'd already started working 24 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,700 for radio television Italiana. And then Zoe two stitches 25 00:01:28,700 --> 00:01:32,600 fencing. The On state television and the 26 00:01:32,700 --> 00:01:37,500 World Bank asked me to film a baseline study of the Loess 27 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:40,600 Plateau. So, I went out to look at this. 28 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,000 It's the cradle of civilization and it's in the upper and middle 29 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,600 reaches of the Yellow River. So it's really a important place 30 00:01:49,700 --> 00:01:51,800 in Chinese history. It's an important place in 31 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,700 Chinese revolutionary history. It's where Mal hit out at the 32 00:01:55,700 --> 00:02:01,800 end of the Long March before he was able to His army and, and 33 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,200 take over China for the Communists. 34 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:09,000 So it has this connection to modern history and a long 35 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,900 connection to ancient history because it was the cradle of 36 00:02:11,900 --> 00:02:16,400 civilization and the birthplace of the Han Chinese race. 37 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,500 And when I went out there and I saw this, I compared it 38 00:02:20,500 --> 00:02:26,000 immediately to the type of political and economic news that 39 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,700 I've been covering for the television networks. 40 00:02:29,500 --> 00:02:34,400 And I I decided that ecology was more important and that I would 41 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,800 rather spend my life studying Earth's systems and and 42 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,300 documenting and communicating about Earth Systems rather than 43 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:49,000 the hubris of political leaders or the illogical aspects of a 44 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:54,500 corrupt economic systems and no no punches being pulled their. 45 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,300 So the pictures that you can see of the Loess Plateau before the 46 00:02:59,308 --> 00:03:04,500 restoration, Jim, we're just Barren very eroded mountains and 47 00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:07,900 valleys and gullies. But I imagine there was a 48 00:03:07,908 --> 00:03:10,700 before, right? It didn't used to look like 49 00:03:10,700 --> 00:03:12,100 that. When did it change and what did 50 00:03:12,100 --> 00:03:17,000 it used to look like, right. Well first of all loose it's a 51 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:22,900 German word, it's loose and the it's a sediment. 52 00:03:23,100 --> 00:03:27,200 So it was created over prodigious time by the movements 53 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:32,700 of glaciers in the Himalayas when You consider the uplift of 54 00:03:32,700 --> 00:03:35,300 the Himalayas which are the highest mountains on the earth, 55 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:40,600 it's where the sub-continent of India, hits the Asian continent, 56 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:45,800 and it pushes this mountains up. And the glaciers were covering 57 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,500 that and then the Glaciers are moving and, and it's called 58 00:03:49,500 --> 00:03:52,000 tillage. I'm not sure why they use that 59 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,100 particular word, but it's the movement of glaciers. 60 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:03,100 Crushing this rock into powder and Powdery dust than flies and 61 00:04:03,100 --> 00:04:09,500 lands and over millions or tens or hundreds of millions of years 62 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:10,600 or billions. Who knows? 63 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,800 You get these huge deposits and there are lists deposits in 64 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,399 other parts of the world. But these are the largest list 65 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:22,600 deposits anywhere, and it's really minerally rich. 66 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,300 So you can imagine these rocks that are being pulverized and 67 00:04:27,300 --> 00:04:29,500 and so all this mineral is there. 68 00:04:29,900 --> 00:04:34,200 But it requires organic material to be fertile. 69 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:44,000 So over a really long time after Evolution began then, biological 70 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:51,300 life totally colonize the planet and as the habitat as each 71 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:55,400 generation of Life died and gave up its body to nurture the Next 72 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,700 Generation, it created a habitat for microbial. 73 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:05,200 And fungal communities, and these then became the vectors 74 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,200 which made it possible to deliver minerals and water and 75 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:14,200 nutrients to higher life forms like vascular plants. 76 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,200 And ultimately, of course, animals, which eat the plants. 77 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:23,400 So it was potentially one of the most beautiful places on Earth. 78 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,400 I think this is also true in the Middle East. 79 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:31,400 We have place names like the land of milk and honey or that 80 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,000 sort of thing and in western civilization and in Chinese 81 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,200 civilization, this was the first place where the Chinese Empire 82 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:44,000 emerged and it was a place where all of the different tribal 83 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,300 groups were vying. So it had it was big in 84 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:52,600 anthropology as well as ecology it was beautiful, it was 85 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:58,900 probably the most beautiful and that's why the early settlements 86 00:05:58,900 --> 00:06:01,700 and early. Nation grew up around there and 87 00:06:01,700 --> 00:06:03,400 I think that's true around the world. 88 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,800 And many of the places that are desert if I'd around the world 89 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:13,400 are also in places like that. He's this story of degradation 90 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,700 one of Agriculture. Or is it more complicated than 91 00:06:16,700 --> 00:06:19,200 that? Well I think it's a bit more 92 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,000 complicated. You can go back. 93 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,400 Human impact on natural environments. 94 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:30,200 Probably began with when we became very good at Social 95 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:35,800 hunting, we probably studied pack animals, wolves or lions or 96 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,400 something like this. And we've learned how to work 97 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,200 together because we're social has a species. 98 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:48,000 We're social creatures and when we were very good at getting a 99 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,900 team together, you know, we'd always know who the fastest 100 00:06:50,900 --> 00:06:54,300 runner and the person who could throw the spear or the rock most 101 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:57,700 accurately. But we could also get everybody 102 00:06:57,900 --> 00:06:59,700 together and make a lot of noise. 103 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:05,500 And scare all the animals and I think when we started this we 104 00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:08,600 got so good at it. We pretty much took out all of 105 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,800 the Giant megafon and many continents. 106 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,500 So things like mastodons or mammoths. 107 00:07:16,500 --> 00:07:20,600 You know, they sort of big elephant, precursors. 108 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:27,000 They got killed and we were also probably pray before we were 109 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:31,200 predators so we started to identify By those, we were most 110 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,700 afraid of, and then try to try to kill them too. 111 00:07:35,500 --> 00:07:40,100 And this alteration of predator-prey relationships, 112 00:07:40,300 --> 00:07:44,000 this changes Landscapes. So this causes a type of 113 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:50,300 degradation, but it was to two other things. 114 00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:57,600 I think deforestation is massive and then you have agriculture. 115 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,100 So all of those Are quite significant and deforestation 116 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:05,800 and agriculture are kind of the same thing because often wear 117 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,700 deforesting in order to have agriculture because we assumed 118 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,000 wrongly. It seems to me that agriculture 119 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:19,000 is more productive than natural evolutionary succession systems. 120 00:08:20,700 --> 00:08:25,400 So, you have this degradation process and it has led to a huge 121 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:31,200 amount of erosion and that all comes down these Hills and into 122 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,500 rivers, the tributaries flow, into the Yellow River. 123 00:08:34,799 --> 00:08:37,799 And this is why it's yellow in my understanding. 124 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:41,200 This is why I got its name. Correct, that's correct. 125 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,400 It's loose. Deposits floating in the river. 126 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:48,100 And what's interesting about the restoration is that they were 127 00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:53,300 able to mitigate at least 80% of those sediments. 128 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:56,100 So this is, this is quite a significant. 129 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:03,100 Probably the largest type of In this way and to see that we can 130 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:08,400 change the sedimentation levels. This way is something that we 131 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:13,600 need to consider, but there's more than that sediment control 132 00:09:13,700 --> 00:09:20,600 was definitely the major aspect of the beginning of the project. 133 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:25,800 The other part that was very motivating to the Chinese and 134 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,600 everybody working on the project was poverty reduction because 135 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,500 Cuz if you have such a massively degraded state, or landscape, 136 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,300 it's impossible for these people to have a really good life. 137 00:09:39,300 --> 00:09:42,700 So they were fairly miserable. And this was at the same time 138 00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:46,400 that China was really rising from poverty and isolation 139 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,000 globally. So it's interesting that the 140 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,500 government in China said, well it's not just the East Coast 141 00:09:54,500 --> 00:09:58,500 that needs to get rich. We need to remember the people 142 00:09:58,500 --> 00:10:02,400 in the Cradle of Any civilization who whose 143 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:07,000 Landscapes have been destroyed and to see what can be done, and 144 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:12,400 when they saw and analyzed it and they're very the Chinese are 145 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:17,300 sort of, you know, they're they're pretty systematic and 146 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:20,800 hard-working. So when the Chinese Academy of 147 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,600 Sciences were asked to analyze this, they did a really good 148 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,100 job. They had a lot of people working 149 00:10:28,100 --> 00:10:34,000 on this and they We saw the basic multi-dimensional 150 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:39,200 symbiotic systems. So they, they saw that actually, 151 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:45,600 the hydrological cycle and the vegetation and the microbiology, 152 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,200 and the biodiversity, they're all kind of interrelated. 153 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,200 In fact, they don't exist without the other systems. 154 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,300 So they are symbiotic multi-dimensional systems and 155 00:10:56,300 --> 00:10:59,700 this understanding really help them to have a holistic. 156 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:06,100 Design plan, and then the relationship between the social 157 00:11:06,100 --> 00:11:08,700 problems in the economic problems and the ecological 158 00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:14,100 problems was recognized. So that led to really good 159 00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:18,400 results because when you don't know why something is happening 160 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,900 and you think you can continue with a corrupt or a 161 00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:27,400 dysfunctional economic system, but actually what you're seeing 162 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,200 is a disruption of the highwomen, Hydrological cycle 163 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:36,900 erosion, infertility loss of productivity and loss of 164 00:11:36,900 --> 00:11:40,400 biodiversity. Then what's interesting about 165 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,800 this is it's actually if you if you look at those individually 166 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,400 hydrology or soil fertility or biodiversity, you're kind of 167 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:55,800 looking at the symptom and it is in its holistic nature in the 168 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,600 symbiotic relationships between these systems that you actually 169 00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:03,600 What's happening? So they were quite good at that. 170 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,900 That was an Enlightenment for me. 171 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:09,200 I mean for me to go out there and look at that after looking 172 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,700 at all the political. And so the major political 173 00:12:12,700 --> 00:12:17,900 events of the late 20th century, it was astonishing to realize 174 00:12:17,900 --> 00:12:21,500 that we were on the wrong track entirely that there was 175 00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:25,600 something which was much more valuable and much more directly 176 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,600 determining the safety of not only Humanity. 177 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:35,000 But of life on Earth and that that it was to some degree 178 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,800 understandable and that we were having an effect either through 179 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,100 our ignorance or we could have a positive effect through our 180 00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:47,700 understanding and knowledge that does sound quite astonishing. 181 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:53,400 Very much would like to talk about the getting locals botting 182 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,000 to trying this out. We're going to get there before 183 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,300 we do. I want to close the loop a bit 184 00:12:59,300 --> 00:13:03,300 on the Hello River. Do you know how long the 185 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:06,800 degradation had been going on? Another way of asking is, how 186 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,000 long has it been called? The Yellow River? 187 00:13:09,900 --> 00:13:12,500 Is this thousands of years? Hundreds of years is just like 188 00:13:12,500 --> 00:13:15,000 as long as there's been settled civilization. 189 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,300 It's been this bad? Well, it's interesting because 190 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:21,100 Chinese civilization is very ancient. 191 00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:27,300 So before writing, there was something happening obviously, 192 00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:31,500 and I think the Chinese were among the earliest to have a 193 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:37,000 written language to be literate. So what the river was called 194 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:43,000 initially was the mother River And as the mother River, and I 195 00:13:43,008 --> 00:13:45,900 think this might have happened in more than one place around 196 00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:51,600 the world because the societies are an civilization grew up 197 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,700 along river systems. And because in this case, you 198 00:13:56,700 --> 00:14:02,500 had not only the Han Chinese, you had the Kazakh and the Weger 199 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:08,600 and the Mongols, and search it and kitten you had a number of 200 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,900 ethnic groups. Urging around this. 201 00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:16,700 So they were in a sense vying with one another because at 202 00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:21,800 certain times the Mongols would be in dominant. 203 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,900 They were certainly dominant for 400 years when they had the 204 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:30,500 strongest military tactics and then the jerk chit and the 205 00:14:30,500 --> 00:14:36,600 kitten which are somehow related ethnically to the Japanese and 206 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:42,300 to the Koreans were had Dynasty. He's in China, but the main 207 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:46,900 dynasties were Han in the Han emerged as the dominant force. 208 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:53,800 And when they did this, they seem to be very self-absorbed. 209 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:59,300 I guess Homer would call it hubris that the people thought 210 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:04,000 that they were more important than life itself or that their 211 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,600 lives. Their generation were was so 212 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,600 important. And, you know, obviously, it's 213 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:13,100 important to them. But now we look back at that and 214 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:15,800 we say, well, you know, been hundreds of generations, you 215 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,600 know? So, and, and we need to consider 216 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,900 our generation in relationship to this. 217 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,000 I think I may have gotten off your question a little bit where 218 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,600 you were, you asking me about how people began to join this or 219 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,200 what was it again? No, I think you're on a similar 220 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,900 track here. Just wondering when the Yellow 221 00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:39,300 River, maybe went from the mother River to the Yellow 222 00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:40,300 River. When did this die? 223 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,900 Predation running really happen such that the name changed, 224 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,300 right? Well this is this is of course a 225 00:15:46,300 --> 00:15:51,800 little bit hard to pinpoint but I can tell you that after the 226 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:58,200 written language was you know began there were very extensive 227 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,100 records taken. The Chinese have been pretty 228 00:16:01,100 --> 00:16:09,600 serious about archival activity and there were 2,500 recorded 229 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,500 incidences. Very serious floods, some of 230 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:17,400 which really were devastating. We're very large numbers of 231 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:22,100 people were killed even up into the hundreds of thousands and 232 00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:27,800 potentially millions of people, because in a way often people 233 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,500 begin to build their civilizations in the 234 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:35,000 floodplains. And when you do that, then every 235 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,100 once in a while, you're going to get a flood. 236 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,600 But what also, Happened was that they became pretty good at 237 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,300 engineering. There are still engineering 238 00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:51,500 works that are over 2,000 years old, which are in use today. 239 00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:57,900 So that's pretty shocking. And they started to create 240 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:03,600 different kinds of bureaucratic and official bodies to take care 241 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,800 of things along time ago. So, one of the things that they 242 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:12,700 were doing was that they were building Dyke On the sides to 243 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,800 lift up the sides of the river so that they would have less 244 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,599 flooding. Of course, that never quite 245 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:23,300 worked because the sedimentation was so intense that they had to 246 00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:27,200 keep building it up and up and up and pretty soon the river 247 00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:33,000 inside the dykes was higher than the surrounding landscape so 248 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,600 that made it really dangerous when the dikes were breached. 249 00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:43,900 So it's quite a An interesting aside, I would say but you know 250 00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:47,600 it's something to to look at that human activities. 251 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:53,500 If we don't really get it right? We can sort of create the 252 00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:58,300 possibility for a disaster in the future to how is it working 253 00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:02,300 with people who live in these ecosystems? 254 00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:06,100 Are they happy that these projects get undertaken. 255 00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:10,000 I imagine sometimes there's a fair amount of Suspicion which 256 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,300 seems Hard to blame them for too much. 257 00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:17,900 I know they don't have a lot in a lot of these cases, but I 258 00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:20,700 think there's a fair amount of worried that what little, they 259 00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:25,100 have might be ruined permanently with these large-scale changes. 260 00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:27,700 And there's a process of trying to convince him that this might 261 00:18:27,700 --> 00:18:30,500 actually end up being better. How does that work? 262 00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:35,700 Well, it works a lot better. Now, 25, you know, more than 25 263 00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:40,300 years later where their forests and rivers and and soil. 264 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,500 And productivity there now, where there was nothing before. 265 00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:50,400 So the seeing it is where you believe when you when you 266 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:55,100 experience it and the other part of this is that they used a lot 267 00:18:55,100 --> 00:19:02,900 of methods to engage the people. One of the methods was called 268 00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:08,000 participatory appraisal. It's sometimes called rapid 269 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,200 rural participatory appraisal, And when you do this, 270 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:19,300 essentially not only are you Gathering data, but you are the 271 00:19:19,300 --> 00:19:23,000 people themselves are the agency, which are gathering the 272 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:28,300 data, and when they do this, they understand at the end, what 273 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:30,400 has happened. And so, if there are 274 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:35,200 participating in that type of work, rapid rural, participatory 275 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,800 appraisal is a very good method. There's also a new thing that 276 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,700 we've been using with the in land Foundation, which is called 277 00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:45,200 Theory. You it's been around for a bit 278 00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:50,900 started in MIT by autosh armor and The presencing Institute. 279 00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:55,600 It works quite well to rapidly. Bring people to an understanding 280 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,900 of what happened in the past, what they would like to see in 281 00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:03,000 the future and then to collaborate on designing a way 282 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,500 forward that reaches their goals. 283 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,300 Anyway, when they started this in China, most of the people 284 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:14,500 there Our were desperately poor and many of them were illiterate 285 00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:18,100 and it was the only place that I've really ever been in China. 286 00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:22,900 Where there was a significant amount of significant number of 287 00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:28,700 people who didn't marry because they couldn't afford to have a 288 00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:31,200 family, they could barely survive. 289 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,000 So this was a this is like the worst place and that's what the 290 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,500 Chinese often discussed. They said well, we have to go to 291 00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:42,100 the The worst place. These are the play. 292 00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:44,700 These are the people and these are the places which are the 293 00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:48,100 hardest, they called it the hardest bones to crack. 294 00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:54,300 These are the hardest places that we can go and after 295 00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:58,100 studying and observing what they were doing for some time I came 296 00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:02,000 to the conclusion that almost you have to go to the worst 297 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,900 places because these are the places with the biggest upside. 298 00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:11,100 And a lot of people don't understand that, they They kind 299 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:17,100 of obviously it's a permaculture principle to work from The Edge 300 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,000 and the edge systems are very important because their 301 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,200 transition zones between different biomes. 302 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:30,100 And they they can tell us quite a lot of data, but if you go to 303 00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:37,000 the worst places, if you get it exactly right then you can have 304 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,500 a huge effect because the upside It is higher. 305 00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:43,700 You have like a hundred percent upside. 306 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,600 Whereas, if you're only 50% depleted or only 30% depleted, 307 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,600 or only 10% depleted, then you've really only got a 10 or 308 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,900 30 or 50 percent. Upside. 309 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,100 So going to the worst places is really good and then the other 310 00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:03,300 thing that I've been looking at is Aku puncture points. 311 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,300 Are there certain places on the Earth where if we restore them 312 00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:15,600 it will have an outsized impact all over the world or on a basic 313 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,700 Regional ecosystem. And this seems to be very, very 314 00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:25,700 true too but the people to get them engaged using Participatory 315 00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:31,800 rapid rural appraisal was useful and also they used another 316 00:22:31,808 --> 00:22:33,600 method which was good, they paid them. 317 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:41,400 So, that worked very well for desperately poor people who can 318 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,300 basically. They also did something else, 319 00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:46,800 which was made it absolutely necessary that they paid them. 320 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:52,800 They made all of the earlier, unsustainable behaviors illegal. 321 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,200 So they made it impossible. Possible, you couldn't cut a 322 00:22:56,208 --> 00:23:01,200 tree, you couldn't plant crops on the sides of the mountains 323 00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:04,800 and you couldn't free range goats and sheep. 324 00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:08,700 Well, that was basically all that the people did in these 325 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,600 massively degraded areas. So they shut down all of the 326 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,800 negative impacts by making them illegal. 327 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,600 But by making them illegal, they had to do something or the 328 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,300 people didn't, you know, they would starve. 329 00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:26,900 They didn't know what to do. So they paid Them to be trained 330 00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:32,200 in ecosystem, restoration. And now, when you look at the 331 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,800 value of the ecological restoration, it's clearly vastly 332 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,600 more valuable than anything that human beings have ever made and 333 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,200 everything that human beings will ever make. 334 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:49,700 And the fact of that is that that's a new basis for an 335 00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:54,700 economy rather than a basis of an Economy based on extraction 336 00:23:54,700 --> 00:24:00,000 and Buying and selling things to commoditize everything. 337 00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:05,200 And we know, when we have this materialistic society that we 338 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,200 have winners and losers, but if we have an ecologically 339 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:17,100 functional economy, it's bigger than the material economy, and 340 00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:20,100 it's can be more fairly distributed because it benefits 341 00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:23,400 everyone. So if we are committed to 342 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:30,000 selfishness, Then we're going to hold on to our materialistic 343 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,000 economy, but if we care and are compassionate about all human 344 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:42,400 beings and all living things, then we're going to encourage a 345 00:24:42,408 --> 00:24:45,500 new economy which is based on ecologically function. 346 00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:51,400 So gradually when these kinds of thoughts Dawn on people, because 347 00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:56,000 even illiterate people Since farmers in the middle of 348 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,500 nowhere, can look at nature in awe. 349 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,200 They can look at the night sky and see the stars, they can feel 350 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:08,900 the changes in temperature and wind and and they can see there 351 00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:12,800 how the rain nurtures there the plants and so on and so on. 352 00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:16,700 And so when they do that and then they look at their things, 353 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:23,100 they start to realize oh there's something bigger greater than 354 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,600 our things. And we're not valuing them. 355 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:31,800 So when you analyze how the GDP economy considers ecological 356 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,500 function, it's basically zero. So by calling ecologically 357 00:25:36,500 --> 00:25:40,900 function, the basis of the creation, constant filtration, 358 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:44,600 and continuous renewal of all the life support systems on 359 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,300 Earth is zero in that economy. Well, it's got to be false. 360 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,000 That means you've got a false. Statement in the middle of the 361 00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:57,400 of the economy. The thing that's organizing 362 00:25:58,100 --> 00:26:00,900 civilization. That's not a very good idea. 363 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:06,900 Needs to be considered needs to be discussed and it needs to be 364 00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:10,800 understood that there is a another economy and economy, 365 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:16,000 which is more real, which is not based just on speculation and on 366 00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:22,700 interest-bearing debt and on differentiation and disparity 367 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,100 within the economy. But is based on the 368 00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:31,100 understanding that all life is is in symbiotic relationship 369 00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:34,000 with all of their life and must be valued equally. 370 00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:38,500 So this is this is kind of the type of philosophical things 371 00:26:38,500 --> 00:26:42,600 that I've been thinking about since I started to see this. 372 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,800 And I've also been lucky to go to over 90 countries around the 373 00:26:47,808 --> 00:26:52,700 world to study ecosystems in in relationship and did various 374 00:26:52,700 --> 00:26:55,500 fellowships that I've had with the international Union, for the 375 00:26:55,500 --> 00:27:01,900 conservation of nature, or with rothamsted Research Institute in 376 00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:05,600 the UK, or the University of the west of England, in the UK, or 377 00:27:07,100 --> 00:27:09,100 Netherlands Institute of ecology. 378 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,800 I'm curious about the institutional framework that you 379 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,200 inherit. When you start working within 380 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:21,400 one of these regions or ecosystems, I imagine some of 381 00:27:21,408 --> 00:27:25,700 them, the land is unowned or it's owned by the government or 382 00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:29,300 there's a patchwork of different types of property rights that 383 00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:31,800 exist. Is it as diverse as I might 384 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,000 imagine or their common patterns that you notice as you're 385 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,400 working. And I also as a little kicker to 386 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,900 that question, I imagine in some cases given what you just 387 00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:45,100 mentioned about materialism and ownership, you might want to 388 00:27:45,100 --> 00:27:47,100 change some of those institutions as you're working 389 00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:49,300 through this process. Does that happen? 390 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,600 Well, I don't think it's up to me to change institutions, it's 391 00:27:54,600 --> 00:28:00,100 kind of up to a consensus of humanity, but I think what we 392 00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:06,100 can see is that there are some mistakes and some flaws in 393 00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:12,500 certain areas and if you don't understand what is determining 394 00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:16,500 life or creating and constantly filtering, and continuously 395 00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:19,900 renewing these life support systems, then. 396 00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:24,000 The chance of getting it right is probably pretty low. 397 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:29,700 But what we, what we saw in China was that they, they don't 398 00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:35,800 actually have private ownership in China, they have land use 399 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,600 rights, which is very similar in the sense that you can use the 400 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,000 land. So you have the land use rights 401 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:49,000 so you can use the land, but it's, you know, certainly trying 402 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,800 to be more fair Fair in its distribution. 403 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,900 Although now because of the switch in China to, what's what 404 00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:02,800 they are calling us socialist market economy, which I think a 405 00:29:02,808 --> 00:29:07,500 lot of people would say is very capitalistic because it works 406 00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:11,200 with capital formations and it works with institutional 407 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,400 development. There can be a stratification. 408 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,800 And there has been there are billionaires in China who made 409 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,200 in of it Innovations, and then very Happily collected their 410 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,600 profits and now are extremely rich. 411 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,900 But I think that there's been a mistake, we one of the mistakes 412 00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:34,300 is in this concept of the tragedy of the commons. 413 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,600 This is such a Excellent meme which runs off the tongue. 414 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:48,200 Very lovely semantic concept, but it's false because actually, 415 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,400 the places where I've been studying functional ecosystems 416 00:29:54,200 --> 00:30:00,500 invariably have been protected by indigenous people who have no 417 00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:05,300 concept of ownership whatsoever. And this is where the huge 418 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,700 savannas or the fuge forests or the intact ecosystems were 419 00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:14,800 maintained, the giant herds migrating across the Eastern 420 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,900 step of Mongolia or in the Masai, Mara and the Serengeti. 421 00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:24,200 Although they're being impacted now, the Amazon they're being 422 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,700 impacted now here in California, where you have the highest 423 00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:31,600 expression of evolutionary succession, where the Sequoias 424 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,700 and redwoods, trees or 115 metres high. 425 00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:40,700 But there's only three to five percent of that climax 426 00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:44,600 equilibrium left in California. It's wonderful that this Remnant 427 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,700 exists but we, if we realize that 95 to 97 percent of that 428 00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:53,200 is, Is lost. Then obviously this is this is 429 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:59,500 an enormous impact and it's so impactful in every way its 430 00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:04,700 biodiversity loss, its loss of hydrological Regulation, its 431 00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:11,700 loss of soil fertility. And it's you know, we're barely 432 00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:16,500 at the point where we're as a, as a collectively, understanding 433 00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:19,200 these things. I think some people have known 434 00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:22,800 for some time. But they haven't always been 435 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,400 listened to. Maybe they were bad 436 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,500 communicators. I always I always wonder why 437 00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:33,300 people haven't reacted more to what I've been studying and I 438 00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:38,100 guess I'm not good enough and sometimes I feel inadequate for 439 00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:40,700 the task. That's a hard thing to 440 00:31:40,708 --> 00:31:43,300 communicate about. We've done podcast about the 441 00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:48,700 tragedy of the commons before. And another way of approaching 442 00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:52,900 it is saying that this sting ssion is to the cottam eyes. 443 00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:54,400 It's actually more complex than that. 444 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,300 There are versions of there are places where private property in 445 00:31:57,300 --> 00:31:59,500 fee. Simple property, Norms work very 446 00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:01,200 well. And there are places where it 447 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,500 doesn't. There are places where 448 00:32:02,500 --> 00:32:05,000 Collective decision-making is appropriate. 449 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,600 And there are cases where that's very inefficient, that's why 450 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,000 someone like Elinor Ostrom is research, has always been such a 451 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,600 great Guiding Light is saying that the Details Matter more 452 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,400 than some sort of broad statement about which of these 453 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,200 Norms are appropriate. So quick if you want is hard to 454 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,300 sell in General John, I'm sure. You know, and if you're talking 455 00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:31,200 about ecosystems, they're all I imagine unique and it's hard to 456 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:36,300 make too many generalizations without falling into pitfalls 457 00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:38,600 here, or maybe you disagree. I don't know. 458 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:44,600 No, I would say ecosystems are infinitely complex and there are 459 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,300 certain principles which are kind of universal principles. 460 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,400 I would mention by Biodiversity biomass and accumulated. 461 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,900 Organic matter. Those things seem to be natural 462 00:32:55,900 --> 00:32:58,500 laws. You can't get away from them 463 00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:01,400 anywhere. So any functional ecosystems 464 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:07,600 will Express, biodiversity biomass, and accumulated organic 465 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:13,100 matter and dysfunctional ones will show especially, I mean, 466 00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:16,900 there are natural places. I mean, if you're 50 meters 467 00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:21,500 below, sea level, in the middle of the On desert or something, 468 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,000 you're not going to see very much biodiversity or biomass and 469 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,800 accumulated organic matter. And that's kind of a functional 470 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,100 system for what it is. But basically, if you go to 471 00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:35,200 these places, which were like the cradles of civilization, 472 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:41,300 then they were probably once magnificent and now they look 473 00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:44,600 like deserts. And so, you have to ask. 474 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,400 Why is that happening? What is the motivation? 475 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,500 Is it inevitable? All that human beings, degrade 476 00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:54,700 their ecosystems. And my conclusion is absolutely 477 00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:56,900 not. That's a function of 478 00:33:56,900 --> 00:34:01,400 Consciousness if we are conscious of the value and the 479 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,300 importance of these systems, there's no way that we can 480 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:07,600 destroy them. But if we are ignorant of this. 481 00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:12,500 So it's about ignorance and greed is the cause of 482 00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:16,900 degradation and Consciousness and generosity is the basis of 483 00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:20,500 restoration. Well personally, I'd For 484 00:34:20,699 --> 00:34:26,100 Consciousness and generosity. What do you do to restore 485 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,699 systems that are inherently complex? 486 00:34:30,300 --> 00:34:35,600 Seems that intervening in them carries its own set of risks, a 487 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,800 potentially making things worse, or making it into some 488 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,600 monoculture or just having an idea of a place that isn't 489 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,100 actually what it should be, but it's what you think it should 490 00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:47,900 be. How do you know the difference 491 00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:52,800 in what you're doing? Well, I mean, having having the 492 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,000 opportunity to travel all over the world over the most of the 493 00:34:56,007 --> 00:34:59,800 last three decades and study about functional and 494 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,000 dysfunctional, ecosystems has made it possible for me to view 495 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,200 things in ways that I had not considered before, I had this 496 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:14,400 opportunity and while the basic thing that I think is important 497 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:20,300 is all and getting away from the idea that we have to Stand 498 00:35:20,300 --> 00:35:25,200 everything we have to realize that no matter what we know 499 00:35:25,300 --> 00:35:29,400 we're going to quickly eventually get to the edge of 500 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:36,800 mystery and that's okay but what we do know is important as well. 501 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:43,800 So we have made assumptions that human welfare or human 502 00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:49,800 infrastructure or IR abiotic systems that we've created. 503 00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:53,800 Adar governance systems, our laws, our religions our 504 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,100 Communications systems, our language, or whatever it is we 505 00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:03,600 think is more important than the symbiotic relationships between 506 00:36:04,100 --> 00:36:07,600 other life forms. And this is fundamentally false 507 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,400 because the oxygen in the atmosphere is being generated 508 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:17,800 through photosynthesis, we don't exist without that we have 509 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:23,500 bacteria in our gut. Which allows us to get nutrients 510 00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:28,800 from our food. So without these other living 511 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:35,000 beings in symbiosis with us, we wouldn't survive and we're not 512 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,900 just related to all other human beings on the planet, we're 513 00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:44,300 related to all living things. So we need to understand that 514 00:36:44,308 --> 00:36:48,300 and that kind of understanding and that having that in your 515 00:36:48,300 --> 00:36:53,400 mind, as you look, Out at the world, gives you a different 516 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,700 perspective on the world you're not thinking like how can I cut 517 00:36:56,700 --> 00:36:59,500 this down and use it? You're thinking about, I wonder 518 00:36:59,500 --> 00:37:03,100 how I'm in symbiotic relationship with this this 519 00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:06,200 life-form and how awesome is that? 520 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,700 So this is been, you know, a huge thing. 521 00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:16,800 We're in a way we're we're not humble enough to realize. 522 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,800 Well we're going to die. Our one. 523 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,500 We're passing through where one of many generations of human 524 00:37:24,500 --> 00:37:28,900 beings to have lived on the Earth, but we're living in a 525 00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:36,100 time where the accumulated impact of human civilizations on 526 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,100 the earth systems are causing a type of collapse. 527 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,300 So when you see biodiversity loss or you see climate changes, 528 00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:48,600 or you see the ocean acidification or thermal 529 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:54,700 expansion in the Ins or the all of these impacts then we are 530 00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:58,000 wildly. Crossing planetary boundaries. 531 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,400 I would mention another one toxicity, which is huge. 532 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,500 Now we have released persistent organic pollutants, into the 533 00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:10,600 into the soil, on the water, in the atmosphere and this is 534 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,400 ludicrous. So we're causing huge, huge 535 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,400 impacts, and if we're not aware of that, if we're in and if we 536 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:24,000 think it's Acceptable to do that for profit that someone could do 537 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,300 that for profit. Well, what profit? 538 00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:30,800 There is no profit. Actually, that's a lie. 539 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,000 And so we've created these systems which are false and 540 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,700 hypocritical and we have to, we have to do something else. 541 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,200 And as I've been thinking about these things, I thought, well, 542 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,700 what am I doing? You know, am I doing the right 543 00:38:48,700 --> 00:38:52,100 thing? and for the last three decades, 544 00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:56,400 I've been working in the collective interest because I 545 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:03,600 can tell you frankly it's not a very lucrative career to make 546 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:11,200 films about soil and poor people but but it is in fact, really 547 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:17,100 satisfying and it does gradually shift and awareness or 548 00:39:17,100 --> 00:39:21,900 consciousness of the things that we Rely on for life. 549 00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:23,300 So this is, this is very important. 550 00:39:23,300 --> 00:39:27,900 I think, the more people who start to realize we have to 551 00:39:27,900 --> 00:39:32,100 change if we're unable to change and it's not just change the 552 00:39:32,100 --> 00:39:36,500 bottom line, or make money in another way, we need to have 553 00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:40,200 fundamental changes because there's huge mistakes. 554 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,000 And these huge mistakes are represented by the degradation 555 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:49,600 that we're seeing in the world. And, you know, I have to say 556 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,800 that that there are some fundamental mistakes in 557 00:39:54,800 --> 00:40:00,400 reasoning in ecological thinking, as well. 558 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,700 So you have people who are talking about ecosystems 559 00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:07,700 services. I don't see any ecosystem 560 00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:13,900 Services anywhere on the earth. I see either functional or 561 00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:18,600 dysfunctional ecosystems and when you have a functional 562 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,300 ecosystem, Then what is being called? 563 00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:26,200 Ecosystem Services is what are being called? 564 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,000 Ecosystem services are there and when you have a dysfunctional 565 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,200 one, they're not there or they're vastly depleted. 566 00:40:34,700 --> 00:40:38,700 And so what that says to me is that there are primary systems 567 00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:42,700 and secondary systems and the primary systems are functional 568 00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:48,700 ecosystems and the derivatives from those systems are what are 569 00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:51,400 being called. Ecosystem Services. 570 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,900 Another one would be about carbon and I know this might be 571 00:40:56,900 --> 00:41:01,300 close to home but the got Private John tell us how you 572 00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:04,400 really feel. Yeah well I will you know you 573 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,100 can't stop me. Exactly. 574 00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:11,700 I mean you could turn me off I guess but but basically we saw 575 00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:17,100 in 1997 with the creation of the Kyoto Protocol the clean 576 00:41:17,100 --> 00:41:24,500 development mechanism and Trying to use abiotic changes to 577 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:29,000 control climate change. And what this did was it 578 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:34,700 reinvested vast amounts of money in the polluting Industries. 579 00:41:35,300 --> 00:41:39,000 So the polluting industries were told, you can't use the same 580 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,500 polluting equipment so you have to upgrade and we'll pay you for 581 00:41:43,500 --> 00:41:45,500 it will give you will subsidize you. 582 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,200 And so we have subsidized extraction Industries and And 583 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,900 petroleum. So we probably extended the 584 00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:59,000 period of unnecessary use of fossil fuels, for several 585 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,700 decades, this way. And at the same time, we took 586 00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:08,200 that investment which could have gone into nature-based solutions 587 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:16,500 to restore forests and oceans and Alpine systems, and riverine 588 00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:19,500 systems and coastal regions and wetlands. 589 00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:24,300 And Protected by diversity, which is actually the only way 590 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,400 that we can reach the scale that we need. 591 00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:33,400 And the only way that we can begin to express what we 592 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,900 actually are. We need to act as a species on a 593 00:42:37,908 --> 00:42:43,200 planetary scale, instead of as a number of individuals who are, 594 00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:46,800 and everybody is out for themselves in this, we need to 595 00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:49,700 understand that it's our Collective. 596 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,400 Impact that has caused this. And our Collective impact is 597 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,700 increased by our selfishness and our greed. 598 00:42:58,700 --> 00:43:03,600 So carbon disequilibrium in the atmosphere is only one aspect of 599 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,200 climate change. It's more of an indicator. 600 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:12,600 It's like a symptom rather than a solution and it is a very good 601 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,400 indicator. It tells us quite a lot, but if 602 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,500 carbon has a value, what's the value of oxygen? 603 00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:25,200 Or what's The value of hydrogen. So these sorts of things that 604 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:30,300 and I guess a massive change and understanding to move away from 605 00:43:30,300 --> 00:43:35,400 scarcity to abundance. So we've said, wealth is caused 606 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:41,000 by scarcity, but actually life and wealth and health. 607 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,400 Are defined by abundance, abundance of error, abundance of 608 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,200 water, abundance of food. So, we've just missed defined, 609 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,700 these very fundamental aspects and we need to get that, right? 610 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,800 Well, I don't know that we're going to crack this nut today. 611 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,100 John. Although there's a lot, they're 612 00:44:02,100 --> 00:44:05,100 worth talking about much of which has come up on the show 613 00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:09,400 previously. Yeah, isolating carbon with, 614 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,100 from within a complex system and Mising for its removal or 615 00:44:13,100 --> 00:44:17,000 storage or however, you'd like to frame it carries its risks. 616 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,600 There are semiotic problems of seeing the world as a set of 617 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:25,200 ecosystem services, that should, at the very least, make any 618 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,600 listener. Feel a bit weird in. 619 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,700 Trying to understand why we've partitioned it that way. 620 00:44:32,300 --> 00:44:35,700 We read a lot of authors who are critical of this way of valuing 621 00:44:35,700 --> 00:44:41,600 to like Kate raworth or Paul Kings North Wendell Berry also, 622 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,200 Frequent references on the show, so you're in good company, John. 623 00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:48,900 I just don't know that we're going to solve that one to show 624 00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:53,900 you in a future episode, but at the risk of cutting that 625 00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:57,900 discussion a bit short, maybe we could go on and get some more 626 00:44:57,900 --> 00:45:01,500 nuts and bolts of what you're working on here, specifically. 627 00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:04,700 I'm curious about the project Finance who can you believe I 628 00:45:04,707 --> 00:45:08,200 just said that phrase right after your broadside project, 629 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,700 Finance of this. Are you working with government 630 00:45:10,700 --> 00:45:15,000 donors and Esters, how exactly does your work do people make 631 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,900 money from this is, is that the wrong Paradigm for doing this or 632 00:45:17,900 --> 00:45:19,600 do you just work with what you've got? 633 00:45:20,500 --> 00:45:24,100 They're definitely three major efforts that I'm working on. 634 00:45:24,100 --> 00:45:27,500 And we've started a fourth one here, in California, because of 635 00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:31,300 the, the economic collapse surrounding this covid, 636 00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:34,100 isolation and the collapse of small businesses. 637 00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:39,100 But the the first one that got started was the common land 638 00:45:39,100 --> 00:45:42,500 Foundation. My friend and colleague vilom, 639 00:45:42,500 --> 00:45:46,900 Farrah de who was the country director of the international 640 00:45:46,900 --> 00:45:49,400 Union for the conservation of nature in the Netherlands. 641 00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:55,000 This and I began to work with him quite a long time ago. 642 00:45:55,900 --> 00:46:01,500 And that has two million hectares in Restoration in 643 00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:07,100 private land Holdings, using private investment mainly from 644 00:46:07,100 --> 00:46:11,700 family fortunes or family foundation's. 645 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,200 This is going pretty well, it is a business case, it's the common 646 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:20,000 land Foundation Works to make sustainable. 647 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,600 Business cases, using a framework called the four 648 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,700 returns, which is returning inspiration, and meaning to 649 00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:35,400 life, and returning, social value to society and returning 650 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,100 natural Capital to the Landscapes. 651 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,700 And because of these other three providing a return on 652 00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:45,400 investment. So it's a little bit like impact 653 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:50,100 investing or its maybe people planet and profit. 654 00:46:50,500 --> 00:46:53,700 With inspiration. That's one. 655 00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:58,000 And then the second one is something that we created called 656 00:46:58,100 --> 00:47:04,200 the ecosystem restoration camps movement, which now has started 657 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:09,600 four years ago was an idea with just an idea which actually, I 658 00:47:09,607 --> 00:47:14,800 was dreaming about and I had these dreams and I rejected them 659 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,400 because I couldn't believe that people would actually listen to 660 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,400 me because I that wasn't my experience. 661 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,500 I Sometimes people say, well, John, you're a thought leader, 662 00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:25,400 and I thought well what are you talking about? 663 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,400 If I were a thought leader, there'd be people who were 664 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,000 following me, but now it's not really true. 665 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:35,000 So, when I, when I had these dreams, I thought, oh, that's 666 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,000 not going to happen. But I kept having these dreams, 667 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,800 I would wake up in the morning and people were getting out of 668 00:47:40,808 --> 00:47:44,400 their tents and they were happy. Getting breakfast in there 669 00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:50,100 laughing and talking and then they would go and restore water. 670 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:55,300 Ed's and grow fertile, soils, and propagate and plant out 671 00:47:55,300 --> 00:47:58,400 indigenous, and endemic plants, and everybody was busy and happy 672 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,600 and collaborating. And and I just rejected that 673 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,500 thinking that's not happening, but I kept having the dream. 674 00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:09,600 So, I started writing about it in journals and magazines and, 675 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,400 and on the social media, and then hundreds and thousands. 676 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:18,400 And then tens of thousands of people started to agree, and 677 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,000 say, let's do that. We should do that. 678 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,000 That and so we created a foundation in Europe. 679 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,900 And now there's a second foundation in the United States. 680 00:48:25,900 --> 00:48:29,600 And the first year, we had one Camp the second year, two camps, 681 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:34,800 the third year, 21 camps, and the fourth year 37 camps, and 682 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,300 they're in six continents, and they're happening all over the 683 00:48:37,300 --> 00:48:39,700 world. So, by all means, everybody 684 00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:43,200 should join the ecosystem restoration camps movement. 685 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,200 And you can go to ecosystem restoration camps, dot-org and 686 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,000 become a supporting member and look at all. 687 00:48:50,100 --> 00:48:53,900 All the different camps are you can go camping or you can 688 00:48:53,900 --> 00:48:57,900 encourage people to restore Landscapes all over the world, 689 00:48:57,900 --> 00:49:03,400 we have camps in Egypt, and Morocco, and Somalia. 690 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,100 Actually the United Nations is asking us to participate in a 691 00:49:07,100 --> 00:49:13,400 project in Syria and we have a number of camps in California. 692 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:18,600 We have camps in India and Australia Kenya Guatemala. 693 00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:22,600 Leah all over the world. And there are many many more 694 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,200 forming. So what we really need is more 695 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,800 people to join as supporting members. 696 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:34,700 We also have some larger donors, but I kind of prefer if it can 697 00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:40,500 be a participatory, Grassroots movement, led by people. 698 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,300 So most of us share about 10 euros per month, which is two 699 00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:47,600 cups of coffee at Starbucks apparently. 700 00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:52,600 But if you have a million members, That's 120 million 701 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,600 Euros. So you can do a lot of 702 00:49:54,600 --> 00:50:00,000 restoration when you have all these voluntary, autonomous self 703 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,800 organizing and self-governing camps around the world. 704 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:07,800 So I see this as, as a way forward, it's also a compliment 705 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,300 to what's going on in the, in the common land Foundation, 706 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,100 where wealthy people and large landowners also need to do 707 00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:18,800 regenerative agriculture. Also need to understand 708 00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,300 ecologically restoration because cuz their impact is is very 709 00:50:22,300 --> 00:50:26,400 large, either positively or negatively, depending on what 710 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:31,300 they do and the third thing that I'm working is with a group 711 00:50:31,300 --> 00:50:37,600 called the weather makers and this is been designing what I 712 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,400 would call a Naka puncture point on the earth which is the Sinai 713 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:47,900 Peninsula in Egypt and this program is going forward now so 714 00:50:48,100 --> 00:50:52,600 you can read about that on my Page or on the weather makers 715 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:59,200 page and see how that goes. There's a an essay I wrote 716 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,500 called the Holy Grail of restoration, you can read that 717 00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:06,500 and I know that the guardian is working on a very large piece on 718 00:51:06,500 --> 00:51:10,000 this right now. And this is looking at what 719 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:15,700 happened, historically by human impact, what human impact was on 720 00:51:15,700 --> 00:51:20,000 areas, which were once had place names, like the land of milk and 721 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,400 honey. And why they look like deserts 722 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,600 in the sand is blowing across there and we essentially found 723 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,400 that you can sort of see it and understand it through the 724 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:36,600 evidence. So there's evidence of changes 725 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:42,100 in wind direction and moisture the arrival of moisture. 726 00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:48,300 Essentially over evolutionary time, the predominant winds were 727 00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:54,500 coming from the south from the Notion and flowing in to across 728 00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,700 Mount Sinai, through the Sinai, Peninsula and into North Africa, 729 00:51:58,700 --> 00:52:01,000 the Middle East, and the Mediterranean. 730 00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:05,500 And this is a type of Continental Divide where you 731 00:52:05,500 --> 00:52:08,100 have weather systems, which meet at that point. 732 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,600 So when about approximately 8,000 years ago, the wind seems 733 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,500 to have shifted from the north to the South. 734 00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:19,100 And instead of having moist air coming from the south, you have 735 00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:23,500 a vacuum effect which is Is pulling moisture into the upper 736 00:52:23,500 --> 00:52:28,700 atmosphere where it is a terrible greenhouse gas and this 737 00:52:28,700 --> 00:52:33,200 seems to have been caused by changing surface temperatures on 738 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:37,100 the Earth by D vegetation. So when you do that, you create 739 00:52:37,100 --> 00:52:40,300 higher surface temperatures which cause thermic drafts, 740 00:52:40,300 --> 00:52:44,200 which push moist air into the upper atmosphere, and doesn't 741 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:48,100 allow that to recycle in the lower hydrological cycle. 742 00:52:48,500 --> 00:52:52,900 So it creates Desertification, massive desertification. 743 00:52:52,900 --> 00:52:57,500 We see the results now. And we've been looking at that 744 00:52:57,500 --> 00:53:02,400 and we see that there are some big industrial developments, 745 00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:09,500 which could transition now from being like dinosaurs that need 746 00:53:09,500 --> 00:53:14,800 to go extinct and only serving extraction, Industries and and 747 00:53:14,900 --> 00:53:18,300 profit-making for small groups of people, they could be 748 00:53:18,300 --> 00:53:26,500 transformed into The. Huge power that we need in order 749 00:53:26,500 --> 00:53:29,100 to restore vast areas of the planet. 750 00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:34,000 So, we now have a design plan, which we believe will bring the 751 00:53:34,300 --> 00:53:36,500 moisture. Back from the Indian Ocean into 752 00:53:37,100 --> 00:53:39,500 North Africa, the Middle East, and the Mediterranean. 753 00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:43,400 And we've been working on that and the project is ongoing with 754 00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:48,000 research, and it's about to start the president of Egypt. 755 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:53,900 Recently, mentioned it publicly in the news, so it's It's all on 756 00:53:53,900 --> 00:53:57,800 track so I guess they're different ways forward. 757 00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,600 One Way. Common land Foundation is a 758 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:06,100 foundation, which encourages a transitional kind of economic 759 00:54:06,100 --> 00:54:09,900 theory, which helps large landowners and wealthy people to 760 00:54:09,900 --> 00:54:14,900 invest in a future that is survivable and sustainable. 761 00:54:15,500 --> 00:54:19,100 And then the ecosystem restoration camps which now 762 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:25,500 invite everyone to come, and join as supporting members and 763 00:54:25,500 --> 00:54:30,100 to come to camps and learn how to grow organic, soils, and how 764 00:54:30,100 --> 00:54:33,400 to infiltrate, and retain moisture, and how to propagate, 765 00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:38,700 and plant out, mainly indigenous and endemic trees and plants, 766 00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:43,200 then there's Industrial Development with the weather 767 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:49,200 makers, which are designing ways in which we can use the power of 768 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:55,700 it of industrial equipment to Encourage the return of 769 00:54:55,700 --> 00:55:02,700 biological life in other areas. So we're using the abiotic 770 00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:08,300 systems, but we're using them because they exist and if they 771 00:55:08,300 --> 00:55:13,500 go extinct like dinosaurs, we won't have those machines 772 00:55:13,500 --> 00:55:15,700 anymore because they'll probably never be made again. 773 00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:20,500 Since they were made from an analysis that the energy was 774 00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,300 free. And, you know, it wasn't And 775 00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:27,600 that the impact was not so high in that was not true either. 776 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,600 So there's, you know, but anyway we have that capability now. 777 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,100 So, what should we do with it? Should we scrap it or should we 778 00:55:35,100 --> 00:55:39,200 use it for restoration? And so, those are the three 779 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,200 things that I'm pretty much involved in. 780 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,200 And then the fourth thing that I've been doing is something 781 00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,800 different here in California because there's so many people 782 00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,700 who are hungry and who are unemployed. 783 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,900 So we've been Trying to work with a number of people. 784 00:55:55,900 --> 00:56:01,200 And in the last few weeks it's coalescing to create Central 785 00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:09,200 kitchens and Creator, spaces and Central showers and sound has 786 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,800 and laundry systems and clothing banks. 787 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:17,800 So that we can kind of help the most, the most needy to get off 788 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:22,000 the street and to have productive lives. 789 00:56:22,900 --> 00:56:26,800 And be healthy if they have psychological or substance abuse 790 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,500 problems. And this is, this is very 791 00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:32,400 satisfying. And I believe that that's part 792 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,000 of the succession because if they get healthy, they have a 793 00:56:36,008 --> 00:56:38,900 lot of time. Maybe they can go to ecosystem 794 00:56:38,900 --> 00:56:42,600 restoration camps and learn how to restore ecosystems. 795 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,800 And there have been huge fires wildfires throughout California, 796 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,800 which have massively devastated. The forests, and these forests 797 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,800 are so important in capturing the water, which comes off the 798 00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,500 Ocean. So and it's the highest 799 00:56:55,500 --> 00:56:58,500 expression of evolutionary succession that exists anywhere 800 00:56:58,500 --> 00:57:02,200 on the earth that I've seen. And so, if we can restore these 801 00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,000 things and we can use these people, it's kind of. 802 00:57:05,300 --> 00:57:10,700 Well I want to, you know, it's biblical the last shall be first 803 00:57:10,700 --> 00:57:14,300 and the meek will inherit the earth and so their lives can be 804 00:57:14,300 --> 00:57:21,000 massively improved and their efforts and energy can go toward 805 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:22,800 something which is in the common. 806 00:57:22,900 --> 00:57:28,600 And good for all life, which is good for them as well, and good 807 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:30,200 for life. And I would mention one more 808 00:57:30,207 --> 00:57:32,700 thing about that, you mentioned Elinor Ostrom. 809 00:57:32,700 --> 00:57:39,700 I would just mention John, Nash. Also got the Nobel Prize for his 810 00:57:39,700 --> 00:57:43,800 understanding that if you pursue individual interest to the point 811 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:45,800 that it erodes the collective interests. 812 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:50,800 It's no longer in your interest. So if we all would process that 813 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,000 understanding we could easily Really get to the point where we 814 00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,100 all join together in ecosystem, restoration camps, in a movement 815 00:57:58,100 --> 00:58:03,200 where we're, it's not like we own it, it's all of ours, and 816 00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:07,300 we're making a shared, we're defining a shared intention that 817 00:58:07,300 --> 00:58:10,100 we have to do. And we're doing it from the 818 00:58:10,107 --> 00:58:14,900 Grassroots, not from, from some sort of hierarchy that where 819 00:58:15,100 --> 00:58:17,600 somebody wants to have power over everyone else. 820 00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,900 But we are all equal. Okay. 821 00:58:20,900 --> 00:58:22,900 Thank you, John. Links to all those things are in 822 00:58:22,900 --> 00:58:26,100 the show notes. Thanks for the very brief 823 00:58:26,300 --> 00:58:29,500 reference to Game Theory and John, Nash, another another 824 00:58:29,500 --> 00:58:31,600 time. But we also like stuff like 825 00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:32,900 that. Do I'm happy. 826 00:58:32,900 --> 00:58:35,400 You went there. One very quick question. 827 00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:36,800 John. I hope you are able to give a 828 00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,300 short one because we're a bit over time here. 829 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,600 Sure. But one thing I notice in your 830 00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:45,400 filmmaking in particular as it pertains to China and the Loess 831 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:51,200 Plateau is they clearly has the Stamp of humankind upon it with 832 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,300 the terracing does all of the work that you do does it tend to 833 00:58:55,300 --> 00:58:58,900 be a human functional agricultural, kind of space or 834 00:58:58,900 --> 00:59:04,300 do any of them, mimic a sort of pre-human or space that is 835 00:59:04,300 --> 00:59:08,000 outside of human manipulation or do they tend to be functional 836 00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,700 spaces like we saw in China? Well that's a very good 837 00:59:11,700 --> 00:59:13,200 question. Thank you for that. 838 00:59:13,700 --> 00:59:18,200 I think that regenerative agriculture is critical and my 839 00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,400 personal. Willing is that food forests 840 00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:26,600 which are a kind of biomimicry for natural systems are more 841 00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:32,200 productive than mono crops and agriculture that we traditional 842 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:34,700 agriculture. Certainly that's true. 843 00:59:35,500 --> 00:59:40,800 But also, what you might not have understood in China, was 844 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:47,100 that in the Loess Plateau, they had very bad Agriculture and 845 00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:51,600 very bad animal husbandry and very bad forestry practices. 846 00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:56,300 So they were just devastating to the Natural systems and one of 847 00:59:56,300 --> 01:00:00,900 the first things that the Chinese scientists analyzed was 848 01:00:00,900 --> 01:00:04,600 they said well we can't keep having these kinds of impacts so 849 01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:09,300 we have to limit the impacts and in a kind of counterintuitive 850 01:00:09,300 --> 01:00:16,400 outcome they massively reduced the area in cultivation and they 851 01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:23,100 released land for All regeneration of evolutionary 852 01:00:23,100 --> 01:00:28,900 succession 's, so, where you had a situation, which I've seen 853 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,100 also in Africa, and also in South America and other places 854 01:00:32,700 --> 01:00:39,500 where you have, like 100 percent of the land is in agriculture in 855 01:00:39,500 --> 01:00:46,800 the list plateau, in China that changed to being less than 50%. 856 01:00:47,300 --> 01:00:53,200 And so maybe 30 or Or forty percent of the land is being 857 01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:59,300 farmed and the rest is being turned into forests, and these 858 01:00:59,300 --> 01:01:02,900 forests are the basis than of rivers that flow. 859 01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:09,200 So you start to see perennial flows in the tributaries, to the 860 01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:13,600 Yellow River from this. And that's also true in Africa, 861 01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:17,400 you can see this in Africa where when you begin to restore the 862 01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:22,000 forests, the rivers come back. You can bring back Springs, you 863 01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:26,600 can bring back streams. And we need to understand that 864 01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:30,600 this is what we need, not more stuff, and certainly not more 865 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:34,900 agriculture where we're pretending that this. 866 01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:39,000 The food that we're growing is a commodity, and that the only 867 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,400 value it has is how much money does it bring? 868 01:01:41,700 --> 01:01:44,700 And if you can't sell it, then you'd rather throw it away, then 869 01:01:44,700 --> 01:01:47,700 feed somebody with it. Well, that means that you have 870 01:01:47,700 --> 01:01:52,200 almost 50 percent waste In this type of system, it's ludicrous 871 01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:57,200 and we don't need chemicals or these sorts of industrial 872 01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,000 processes to throw half of it away. 873 01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:06,300 What we need is more people working in agriculture in a more 874 01:02:06,300 --> 01:02:11,600 holistic Manner and in a way, which is sustainable and 875 01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:15,100 survivable, and it's also more fun. 876 01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:19,400 So let's have more fun and less stress. 877 01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:24,900 And less disparity between those who are wealthy and those who 878 01:02:24,900 --> 01:02:28,000 are poor. Let's treat everyone with 879 01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:33,100 respect and dignity and then you have a completely different 880 01:02:33,100 --> 01:02:36,200 outcome. Then you have a place where 881 01:02:36,300 --> 01:02:41,600 everyone's creativity and everyone's capability is used 882 01:02:41,700 --> 01:02:46,900 for the good of all instead of where some people use their 883 01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:53,400 creativity and ability. For selfish gain and ignore the 884 01:02:53,408 --> 01:02:58,100 needs of others. So I think this is what I've 885 01:02:58,100 --> 01:03:06,600 learned by looking at nature. And by looking at how people who 886 01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:12,200 are at the front line of mitigation and adaptation to 887 01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:16,500 climate change are working together with each other and 888 01:03:16,500 --> 01:03:19,500 with all other species to come back. 889 01:03:19,700 --> 01:03:23,400 The some sort of Harmony great. Thanks for sharing that with us. 890 01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,000 John and thank you so much for being on the show. 891 01:03:26,500 --> 01:03:30,900 Well, thank you for asking me. Where have you been all my life? 892 01:03:34,700 --> 01:03:36,000 Yeah, it sounds like you're starting to get some more 893 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,000 attention. John, I'm happy to hear it. 894 01:03:38,100 --> 01:03:39,800 And these projects are all very exciting. 895 01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,300 If you're listening and you'd like to be involved where he 896 01:03:42,300 --> 01:03:45,100 have Deep Pockets and you'd like to donate or if you have medium 897 01:03:45,100 --> 01:03:47,000 sized pockets and you just want to be a part of it too. 898 01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:49,000 It sounds like something that you're trying to encourage to 899 01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,000 John. I think we need to have everyone 900 01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,900 joined if the central intention of human civilization is to 901 01:03:55,900 --> 01:04:00,300 restore the Earth. Then nothing can stop us. 902 01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:07,800 If we remain in this area, where we are pretending that things 903 01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,800 are more valuable than life itself. 904 01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:16,600 Then I think we're at high risk of going extinct at this time, 905 01:04:17,300 --> 01:04:19,500 and so we don't really need people. 906 01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:22,800 Take out a huge amounts of money. 907 01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:25,400 Although, it's nice. We do have some larger donors, 908 01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:29,600 and so on. But what we really need is for 909 01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,100 everyone to come together as partners, so you don't need to 910 01:04:34,100 --> 01:04:37,400 join us. We all need to join together. 911 01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:42,700 And we've created a camps movement, which each of the 912 01:04:42,700 --> 01:04:47,000 camps are autonomous self organizing and self-governing. 913 01:04:47,500 --> 01:04:51,500 But we have a network, which is Is supporting them with 914 01:04:51,500 --> 01:04:56,600 knowledge supporting them with Communications, supporting them 915 01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:02,900 like a mycelial network so that they can all if if there's a new 916 01:05:02,900 --> 01:05:07,500 breakthrough or understanding in one place, it can go throughout 917 01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:12,000 the the network and I think it would be lovely if you're if 918 01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:16,700 your podcast and your company can join as a as a partner. 919 01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,100 Why not? Everyone is welcome. 920 01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,600 Alright well thank you again. John, thank you. 921 01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:25,400 If you're listening and you'd like to support the show, would 922 01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:27,900 you please write us a review on Apple podcast? 923 01:05:27,900 --> 01:05:31,500 It only takes 30 seconds if you open up that podcast app on your 924 01:05:31,500 --> 01:05:34,200 iPhone and write us a review. Five stars. 925 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,800 If you believe it, I hope you do it helps us a lot to get this 926 01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:39,900 information out to more listeners. 927 01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,300 And thank you so much for your support and for listening