1 00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:06,400 You're listening to the reversing climate change, 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,500 podcast by the team at Nori. The carbon removal Marketplace. 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,100 This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs 4 00:00:12,100 --> 00:00:14,100 developing solutions to climate change. 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,500 Hello and welcome to the reversing climate change 6 00:00:18,500 --> 00:00:20,700 podcast. I'm Ross Kenyan I'm the creative 7 00:00:20,700 --> 00:00:23,000 editor at Nori's carbon removal Marketplace. 8 00:00:23,300 --> 00:00:26,500 Today I have with me, Catherine Coleman flowers, a MacArthur 9 00:00:26,500 --> 00:00:28,900 genius founder of the Center for Rural Enterprise and 10 00:00:28,900 --> 00:00:31,900 environmental justice. And author of waste one woman's 11 00:00:31,900 --> 00:00:33,900 fight against America's dirty secret. 12 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,500 Thanks for being here. Catherine, thank you for having 13 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:39,600 me. It is my pleasure of all the 14 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,700 things in the world to work on. I have to imagine that rural 15 00:00:43,700 --> 00:00:46,100 sanitation was a bit of a surprise that you could not have 16 00:00:46,100 --> 00:00:48,000 foreseen. Your life going in this 17 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,200 direction. Is that a correct assumption? 18 00:00:50,700 --> 00:00:52,100 That's a very correct assumption. 19 00:00:52,100 --> 00:00:54,300 You know, when I was younger I thought I was going to go with 20 00:00:54,300 --> 00:00:59,000 and become a soul train dancer, that didn't happen and then even 21 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,000 later as ice, Daddy went to college. 22 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,200 I thought I was just being a teacher but I found out that 23 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:08,900 being an activist and still been a teacher but teaching a 24 00:01:08,908 --> 00:01:11,700 different way. But I never thought that the 25 00:01:11,700 --> 00:01:16,000 focus would be way something so basic to all of us and basic to 26 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:19,000 two life forms in general. But certainly something all 27 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,500 humans have to deal with and I never thought that it would be 28 00:01:23,500 --> 00:01:27,100 an issue that would get the attention to vote because I was 29 00:01:27,100 --> 00:01:29,800 told it was not sexy, and nobody would be interested. 30 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:32,200 It. But we found that that was not 31 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,400 the case. No, it, well, I think it's safe 32 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,700 to say it's not sexy percentage, but it is definitely important 33 00:01:40,700 --> 00:01:43,200 and shocking to learn the details of it. 34 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,400 I love stories like this too because we take for granted 35 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,600 having working septic systems or waste disposal things work as 36 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:55,000 their broadly intended to and at least in the cities that I've 37 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,900 lived in. And that is not the case. 38 00:01:56,900 --> 00:01:59,800 For many Americans were people around the world. 39 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,200 Just frame the issue for people who maybe are not located 40 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:05,900 rurally. What exactly is the State of 41 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:09,199 Affairs in Rural America as it comes to sanitation? 42 00:02:09,699 --> 00:02:12,500 Well, I think the biggest problem in the law will 43 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:15,000 Community, especially, unincorporated communities, is 44 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,100 that they are left to figure out their own Wastewater problems. 45 00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:21,700 And and they are forced by regulations. 46 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:27,000 Usually one that has been put, you know, in place by the state, 47 00:02:27,100 --> 00:02:31,600 or the county, or some kind of Authority in the area. 48 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,000 And what happens is that when they treat their Wastewater, has 49 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,100 to be treated on the property and a lot of communities people 50 00:02:38,100 --> 00:02:40,500 are straight piping, meaning that they have no wastewater 51 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:43,700 treatment at all or they have septic systems in a septic 52 00:02:43,700 --> 00:02:46,600 systems are failing. A lot of that is because the sea 53 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,400 level rise, a lot of it because the climate conditions that are 54 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,500 changing and a lot of us just because the technology is just 55 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:55,700 not working and then of course we see people on these small 56 00:02:55,700 --> 00:02:58,800 treatment plans that are also networking and they have Lagoon 57 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,600 systems which are Really big puns of raw sewage but they 58 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,000 don't care where they are. Cited, in some cases, they're 59 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,400 close to communities housing, developments, and schools, and 60 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:11,900 out of that. It's pretty much exposing people 61 00:03:11,900 --> 00:03:14,800 to the possibility of getting sick. 62 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,400 So in Rural America, there has been a neglect of this type of 63 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,000 infrastructure Water and Wastewater infrastructure that 64 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,800 people take for granted in urban communities. 65 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,700 When I've stayed with friends in rural areas and they have septic 66 00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:32,800 systems, I think household waste goes into a sort of tank, and 67 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,900 then there's a field that I think it like leeches out into 68 00:03:35,900 --> 00:03:38,900 and sort of filters through, that's how it's supposed to 69 00:03:38,908 --> 00:03:40,900 work. Although, I've also heard of 70 00:03:40,900 --> 00:03:44,100 work having to be done on septic systems is not a cheap thing to 71 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:46,600 do. But for people who cannot afford 72 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,300 such an elaborate system or have the amount of space necessary to 73 00:03:49,300 --> 00:03:53,000 have this field, it just goes into a pond or goes into some 74 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,000 sort of open-air kind of pond or a lagoon as you say, is that? 75 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,000 Is that what's happening? It's a lot more complicated than 76 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,800 that. I know people that are paid for 77 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,000 elaborate systems and they've still failed. 78 00:04:04,100 --> 00:04:07,000 Wow, it's not that simple. Is not a simple fix it. 79 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,500 You know, septic systems are one of the few things you can buy in 80 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:12,300 the US and pay that much money for it doesn't come with a 81 00:04:12,308 --> 00:04:16,800 service warranty so it varies from place to place and we've 82 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,800 been in conversations with the association that represents that 83 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,100 industry and they don't want warranties. 84 00:04:23,300 --> 00:04:24,900 Excellent part of our conversations. 85 00:04:24,900 --> 00:04:27,900 They say Maybe we should just have warranties in Alabama, but 86 00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:30,700 they're not just failing in Alabama and failing everywhere. 87 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,000 And it's not just a real problem because I just talked with a 88 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,300 group of people that talk about places like in Raleigh, North 89 00:04:37,300 --> 00:04:39,800 Carolina for an example, around that area. 90 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,400 They built sewer around the around the black community and 91 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,400 they are now failing septic systems. 92 00:04:45,700 --> 00:04:48,600 So I'm finding them in Montgomery, Alabama, where we 93 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,300 thought that it was only out in rural communities, but in Black 94 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:54,700 communities, we are because of racialized covenants. 95 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:57,200 At one point But that was the only place people could live 96 00:04:57,300 --> 00:04:59,200 there on septic systems, but they're failing. 97 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,400 A lot of this is film because of climate change and a lot of his 98 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,800 film because of infrastructure that was not designed to work. 99 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,600 The way it was sold to people. It's not working properly and 100 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,800 we're seeing more and more failures exposing people to to 101 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,500 potential health risk, to what degree is it a problem of 102 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:21,200 density where you have to be somewhat living near enough to 103 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,000 one another that you could have sores that go to some sort of 104 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,000 facility? I imagine, I know race and class 105 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,000 clearly figure into this prominently, but to what degree 106 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,800 is it? A problem of just living far 107 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,700 away from one another in rural environments. 108 00:05:33,700 --> 00:05:35,600 But it sounds like what you just said sounds like that was an 109 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,800 urban environment or Suburban in urban and Suburban environments. 110 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,500 We find to be the same but we've seen what they build factories 111 00:05:42,500 --> 00:05:45,200 in rural environments and they ran the city's sewage there to 112 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,600 treat to provide it for the factory. 113 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,700 So why can't we do it for residence. 114 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,800 So it's not just a problem with density and what we tend to see 115 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,100 this tend to be people People of color, they tend to be poor 116 00:05:57,100 --> 00:05:59,000 people. If you go to Appalachia their 117 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,500 white people with their poor people and they're dealing with 118 00:06:01,500 --> 00:06:04,200 the same thing and then the other problem is, the biggest 119 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,800 problem that we've discovered is that of the infrastructure just 120 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,500 failing. It's not working properly. 121 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:12,800 I mean it may have worked 20 years ago but even I grew up on 122 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,200 a septic tank and it was coming back into our home. 123 00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:17,800 We didn't know it was a regular problem because we didn't sit 124 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,700 around the kitchen table or when we went to church, we didn't say 125 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:22,600 the fellow. Did your septic tank fell. 126 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,200 Today is sewage coming back into your bathtub. 127 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:26,600 Up. We didn't know that. 128 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,800 It was only when we did a house-to-house serving in 129 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,900 Lowndes County that we realize how big this problem was. 130 00:06:31,900 --> 00:06:34,700 And we started talking about it. People from the round from 131 00:06:34,700 --> 00:06:38,100 around the u.s. start reaching out to us and what we're finding 132 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:40,700 out is that it's not just a rule problem. 133 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:44,700 It's an urban problem too. And we just had a, we're doing a 134 00:06:44,700 --> 00:06:48,700 study with the guardian where we just found, we're asking people 135 00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:52,300 to self report this problem because there's no real data on 136 00:06:52,300 --> 00:06:54,800 this in the US, which is so unfair. 137 00:06:54,900 --> 00:06:56,500 That's Why we still have this problem? 138 00:06:56,500 --> 00:06:59,700 I believe, and we are hearing from urban areas even with his 139 00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:02,200 density, like Mount Vernon New York. 140 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:05,500 With sewage is running back into people's homes or Centreville 141 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,500 Illinois. Where sewage is running back 142 00:07:07,500 --> 00:07:10,000 into people's homes. So, a lot of it is a bigger 143 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,700 problem than that. It's also a problem of 144 00:07:11,700 --> 00:07:13,300 infrastructure. And we have to change our 145 00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:16,300 infrastructure who's currently responsible for this. 146 00:07:16,300 --> 00:07:18,500 Now, is it typically done at the municipal level? 147 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,600 It depends on where it is. It when L Municipal area, when 148 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,200 you talk about Municipal, then you've, you know, that's that's 149 00:07:25,300 --> 00:07:29,000 Urban lingo, because a lot of the rural communities are 150 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,100 unincorporated. So in Alabama, is to State 151 00:07:33,500 --> 00:07:36,600 that's responsible and then they have County health department 152 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,200 since the State Health Department. 153 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,100 When you're talking about a larger facilities, the Alabama 154 00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:42,500 Department of Environmental Management. 155 00:07:42,500 --> 00:07:46,000 So it so there's no uniform way of doing it across the u.s. 156 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,600 It depends on where you're located for an example and in 157 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,600 California. I'm not sure what the entity is, 158 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,300 but I know that there are problems in the state of The 159 00:07:55,308 --> 00:07:57,200 fornia. I know it's problems in Alaska, 160 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,900 there's problems in Hawaii. There were problems in Texas. 161 00:07:59,900 --> 00:08:02,600 Their problems across the country, but in terms of the 162 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,700 data being collected is not happening in a uniform way, if 163 00:08:06,700 --> 00:08:09,400 you were to call me and say Catherine or their waste water 164 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,500 problems in this particular area, which data set can I go to 165 00:08:13,500 --> 00:08:17,100 and find that we didn't really know because it hasn't been 166 00:08:17,300 --> 00:08:19,200 compiled and collected like that. 167 00:08:19,300 --> 00:08:22,700 I think the closest thing we can look to is the American Society 168 00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:25,100 of civil engineers who have a report card. 169 00:08:25,300 --> 00:08:28,100 On infrastructure who's given the u.s. a D+? 170 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:37,500 Yeah, this is a deceptively simple question but but why why 171 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,700 why can't we do this? Is it as simple as something 172 00:08:40,900 --> 00:08:44,800 like Prejudice or racism is there more operating this story. 173 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,200 Why can't we make sure people aren't getting sick from merely 174 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,600 existing? Well, what I found it in some 175 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:57,500 places is race and some places is is economics and a lot of it 176 00:08:57,500 --> 00:09:01,300 is just simply inequality who deserves access Stu sewage. 177 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:02,800 And who doesn't it? Should be. 178 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,300 It should be something that everybody has because one of the 179 00:09:05,300 --> 00:09:09,200 things covid is taught us, is that it was an equal opportunity 180 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,900 killer and it affected people. No matter. 181 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:16,300 You know, people that were more likely to die. 182 00:09:16,300 --> 00:09:19,100 Of course with those with Health Care disparities and so forth, 183 00:09:19,100 --> 00:09:22,300 but it killed a lot of people that were not with it. 184 00:09:22,300 --> 00:09:25,600 You know, that we didn't know they had issues where dying and 185 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,500 we're seeing around the world now and younger people are dying 186 00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:30,300 since they have the vaccines because they weren't available. 187 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,400 But to them until recently. So it was the same thing with 188 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,000 sanitation. I think that it's not a simple 189 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,000 issue. I think there are many factors 190 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:42,400 that influence who has sanitation and who doesn't 191 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,000 depends on where you're located and that may help determine what 192 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,300 the factor is. But one of the things that 193 00:09:48,300 --> 00:09:51,800 there's overwhelming and all of that is that the people that 194 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,300 tend to not have it or marginalize, and I would include 195 00:09:55,300 --> 00:09:58,900 rural communities as being marginalized to Okay. 196 00:09:58,900 --> 00:10:01,900 I like the template of the environmental justice story, or 197 00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:05,600 one of them gets used as Erin Brockovich, right. 198 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,500 And I love her. We go on, right? 199 00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:10,700 Yeah. Just investor-owned utility 200 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:14,000 doing not-so-nice things, suing them getting them to fix it. 201 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,200 Getting a nice, big judgment. But a lot of the people you're 202 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,500 dealing with are oftentimes people who are public health 203 00:10:19,500 --> 00:10:23,300 agencies, they're sort of government or public employees. 204 00:10:23,300 --> 00:10:26,200 Then they're not as Cooperative as one might think or one might 205 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,500 expect from the government, is this Story more complicated than 206 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,000 just government good and corporations bad in this 207 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,800 context. Oh yeah, it's more complicated 208 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,000 than that. I think that a lot of it is is 209 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,400 people changing the narrative to suit what they want. 210 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,000 And also, people changing it to make sure that the people that 211 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,300 they've sponsored and support are always the ones to get the 212 00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:48,400 money even if they created the problem. 213 00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:52,300 So that's a large part of it. I thought attributed this to be 214 00:10:52,300 --> 00:10:57,100 like what happened on January 6. You know, some people saw what I 215 00:10:57,100 --> 00:10:59,100 saw. And I guess I'm looking at 216 00:10:59,100 --> 00:11:02,600 because I'm a former member of the military what I saw because 217 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,600 I believe in the Constitution will people that went and 218 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,500 invaded my house, they didn't follow the rules. 219 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:11,000 I used to work in the Capitol and I knew you just couldn't 220 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,300 walk through there and push through a door. 221 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:16,500 I would have been shot and I just saw how the rules were 222 00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:19,900 applied their the same thing happens when it comes to septic 223 00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:22,300 and sewage treatment in terms of who gets it. 224 00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:25,500 And who doesn't, if you have the right kind of support and the 225 00:11:25,500 --> 00:11:29,500 right people trying to say, you know, No shape the story to make 226 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:32,000 it look a different way. Then of course, you're going to 227 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,900 have people to support that option. 228 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:36,300 That's what's happened. What happens here and we got to 229 00:11:36,300 --> 00:11:38,800 keep in mind that in some of these communities. 230 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,800 They're operating based on philosophies that were built up 231 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:47,900 years and years and years of having free labor and minimizing 232 00:11:47,900 --> 00:11:50,800 certain groups of people so that they can continue to exploit 233 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,800 their labor. And now we're at a point where 234 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,400 we're looking at all these inequalities and note that the 235 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,000 continued Sustain this, in terms of environmental justice issues, 236 00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:04,100 impacts all of us because out of this is are coming health 237 00:12:04,100 --> 00:12:07,700 problems that don't stay in my community, it can impact 238 00:12:07,700 --> 00:12:11,100 everybody's Community, whether it is even a more affluent 239 00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:12,300 people. I know some people that were 240 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:15,800 fluent to get covid and I think that all of us are seeing things 241 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,900 differently now because it helps us to drop those skills from my 242 00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:23,000 eyes. The realize we are all one. 243 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,200 We are all human and we're all impacted by this. 244 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:27,600 So that's why we have to find a solution. 245 00:12:27,900 --> 00:12:31,300 Option that will help all of us. And that's why I tend to reach 246 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:34,900 across the aisle when I can. It did wasn't that. 247 00:12:34,900 --> 00:12:36,600 It wasn't called Reaching Across the aisle. 248 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,800 When I started doing this work, it's just that for me coming 249 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,900 from the country is being neighborly and reaching out to 250 00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:45,700 my neighbor and seeing, if we can find some common ground, to 251 00:12:45,700 --> 00:12:48,600 solve this problem, because we all realize, it's an issue that 252 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,300 we have to address. I really respect that and it's 253 00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:56,100 not as common as one might hope, but there's even working here or 254 00:12:56,100 --> 00:13:00,000 there's a section about your work with Jeff sessions and, and 255 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,900 being able to collaborate, I don't think people would have 256 00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:06,100 expected to find that in the book like this. 257 00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:09,200 How did that happen? Well, actually met Senator 258 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,200 sessions at a town hall meeting. I was working as economic 259 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,100 development coordinator for Lowndes County. 260 00:13:15,500 --> 00:13:19,100 And what often happens is that the Senators US senators would 261 00:13:19,100 --> 00:13:22,300 actually coming to the community Did this a lot, but go to the 262 00:13:22,300 --> 00:13:24,500 community and meet with constituents to explain what was 263 00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:27,600 going on in Washington and I went to one of those meetings 264 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,900 and I asked him a question because he was talking about the 265 00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:33,300 grant programs that were available for Rural communities 266 00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:36,100 and my question was well how to rule poor rural communities, get 267 00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:39,700 access to these grants if they have to have to have a match and 268 00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:43,400 they don't have a tax base to do that and he couldn't answer the 269 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,700 question. But to his credit, he came to me 270 00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:48,900 afterwards and he said I've always been concerned about 271 00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:50,400 that. Then he went on to tell. 272 00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:55,100 Tell me about the fact that he himself grew up poor and Rural 273 00:13:55,100 --> 00:13:58,000 Wilcox, County Alabama, which is also part of the Black Gun. 274 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,300 He said Captain, I didn't have my family didn't have a 275 00:14:00,308 --> 00:14:03,700 television, you know, home until I was 10 years of age. 276 00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:08,100 So, you know, from that point on, we just bonded and doing 277 00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:11,600 that time, when I got involved in the Wastewater issue, I was 278 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,600 getting death threats and he would actually send someone down 279 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,700 from Washington to go to meetings with me. 280 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,200 So there was never a meeting that I went to in the state 281 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,600 level or neither. I went to an evening where I 282 00:14:23,608 --> 00:14:26,700 didn't have someone from Senator sessions office, either from the 283 00:14:26,700 --> 00:14:31,600 DC office or the Alabama office. That would accompany me and I 284 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:36,300 think that gave me some measure of protection doing that time. 285 00:14:36,700 --> 00:14:39,900 And he knew we often talked about as he would ask me 286 00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:41,900 sometimes Kathy, why don't you run for office? 287 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,200 And, you know, we would love to have you. 288 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:45,900 He was talking about the Republican party, but he knew I 289 00:14:45,908 --> 00:14:49,500 wasn't a republican. But, but he said, I will support 290 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:53,500 you. And I was even an another 291 00:14:53,500 --> 00:14:56,600 stories. There was a woman who was over 292 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,000 the door Daughters of the Confederacy and Selma. 293 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,800 And when they opened up the interpretive Center, the Lowndes 294 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,400 County interpreter Center, which tells the history of the Selma 295 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,700 to Montgomery, March along the, my girlfriend went to 296 00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:11,000 Montgomery, March 30. She was there and she wrote an 297 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,700 editorial saying it calling in a temple orgy of hate and Rose 298 00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:17,200 Senator sessions and said they needed to close it down. 299 00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:20,000 So Senator sessions decided that he wanted to visit. 300 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,300 Visit the interpretive Center and he his office reached out to 301 00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:26,800 me and asked me what I accompany him and I did. 302 00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:30,200 And at that time it was under State control, and I had talked 303 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,500 to some leaders who black leaders across the state and 304 00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:36,900 what and was told that to ask him, could they move it from the 305 00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:39,800 state, controlling it to the Department of the interior? 306 00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:43,300 Which he said on that, that committee that oversaw the 307 00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:46,700 department of the Interior? So as we walk through there at 308 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:50,200 the end it is talked about voting rights and all The 309 00:15:50,208 --> 00:15:52,800 impediments that were put up to voting, which is really our 310 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,900 running right now. Some states are trying to do the 311 00:15:54,900 --> 00:15:59,500 same thing again but he said, we need to keep this open because 312 00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:04,200 people need to know this history and it was moved from the state 313 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,800 under State Control to Federal control is now run by the 314 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,700 National Park Service. Wow. 315 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,000 Do you have any guidance or tips for someone listening? 316 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,000 How they can better work together. 317 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:17,900 Maybe not. All the values are shared, or 318 00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:20,600 maybe not even in the same political party as someone. 319 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,900 But I got the sense. Reading your book that your 320 00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:25,700 Christian faith has a lot to do with it, but I'm curious. 321 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:29,200 How might you frame this? There are two things. 322 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,600 Well 3x, the one with one is in fact, my Christian faith and 323 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,600 then my and one of the things that I've learned that my father 324 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,800 used to always say and he was paraphrasing. 325 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,000 What he saw in the Bible, which was kept even if you make one 326 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,400 step god with me too. So I think we have to make the 327 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,800 step. And then the second part of his 328 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,800 being from a rural community, when you grow up in a rural 329 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,100 community, got to be dependent upon each other. 330 00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:54,200 So you can't, you know, be at each other's throats. 331 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,900 So we have to find ways in which to communicate and even though 332 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:00,900 we may not have attended church together but we were still 333 00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:05,000 neighborly toward each other and then of course, coming from a 334 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,500 family that did not meet strangers. 335 00:17:07,099 --> 00:17:09,300 So we have to seek common ground. 336 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:10,900 Round. And one of the things I've 337 00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:13,500 learned about being in the military that I was put in this 338 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,000 situation, you know, all these folks from around the country, 339 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,300 did I did know, but at the end of the day, we at the end of the 340 00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:22,900 experience is six weeks in the basic training. 341 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:26,800 We had formed lifelong friendships, so we have to find 342 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,700 and we had come from different backgrounds. 343 00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:31,500 I was with people who had never been around a black person 344 00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:35,300 before, but at the end of the day, we became friends that I 345 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:39,200 think we have to find common ground and find the humanity in. 346 00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:42,400 Each and every person. So I am not going to get into an 347 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,900 argument with people over things. 348 00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:46,100 I don't agree with. Let's first, let's find some 349 00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:48,700 common ground first. When you can find the common 350 00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:51,200 ground and is easy to talk about the hard things. 351 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,600 I've heard people say that the military is the most integrated 352 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,400 place in America, it sounds like maybe that was your experience 353 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,400 too. It was, it was, it was a 354 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,300 different experience for me at that time. 355 00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:05,600 And I didn't even I didn't deal with racism, I dealt with racism 356 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,200 and I remember I had braids at the time and Where the person's 357 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,000 walked into the day room and went to write me up because I 358 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,800 was wearing my hair in braids, but there was nothing in the 359 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,700 uniform code of military Justice. 360 00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:23,000 The UCMJ they said I couldn't wear braids and he wanted to, to 361 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,600 right here, ended up having to give me an apology because my 362 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,200 supervisor at the time we reached out to him and send him, 363 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,100 the rags and said that you're wrong, and he hit the back up. 364 00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:37,000 But I knew that he was, he was, you know, he saw that. 365 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,100 But he did that because, you know, I was black and he was 366 00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:43,700 white and he had power over me and he felt like he could do 367 00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:47,500 that, but he was wrong. And I've seen that throughout, 368 00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:50,100 not just my experience but I tell the story of mine. 369 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:54,000 My ex-husband's experience in the military as well but it 370 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,200 doesn't mean I don't believe in the military. 371 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,300 My I have three brothers that served in the military. 372 00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:03,700 My father is a vet and I believe in the Constitution and will 373 00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:07,200 defend it. Why would someone make death 374 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,700 threats against you? We were just not want their 375 00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:11,900 taxes raised to pay for sewage system. 376 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,000 Where is the problem? I really don't know I suspect 377 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,700 that they're people that benefit from the problem. 378 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,800 And of course, you know, if you are in a situation where you get 379 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,900 business based on people being reported to the health 380 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:31,000 department and the health department can criminalize the 381 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:36,000 individual and forced them to to pay for A business. 382 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,700 Maybe that was it. I really don't know. 383 00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:41,200 I'm still trying to understand that one of the things that 384 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,800 happened during that period of time, someone put a ball python 385 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,200 in my apartment. That's why I would not live in 386 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,200 an apartment anymore. I want to live in a place where 387 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,100 I feel like I can secure it myself because an apartment. 388 00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:57,800 Anybody could have access to it but but those are the kinds of 389 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,100 things that that I encounter doing that time who it was, I 390 00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:03,400 really don't know. They, you know, people that do 391 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,000 stuff like that a cowardly, they never. 392 00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:09,500 Reveal who they are. If it were someone who made 393 00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:12,900 money off of people having, you know, being cited having to 394 00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:16,100 repair make extremely expensive repairs, in some cases worth 395 00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:20,000 more than the home itself. It seems unmanageable entirely, 396 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,600 but they would have made money off of putting in good quality 397 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,600 septic systems to write. It doesn't seem like there's a 398 00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:32,100 well, if they, if they fail within two years and you have to 399 00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:37,200 go back and do it again. Oh, See now we're kind of deal. 400 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,000 Yeah, 3p kind of thing. And then then we saw situations 401 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,500 for an example where a there was a person who he was. 402 00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:49,900 He was a minister at the church in in another County and they 403 00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:53,600 bought this church church property because it was located 404 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,200 close to the highway. And after they bought the church 405 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,000 property, the adjacent landowner who I suspect probably sold the 406 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,100 property ended up filing the complaint against the church 407 00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:06,300 because the field. The Lions have been separated 408 00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:09,100 from the septic tank. The when they flush the toilet, 409 00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:10,800 it was coming out onto his problem. 410 00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:15,500 However where was he when his property was for sale and the 411 00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:19,200 health department, put all of this might against his medicine, 412 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,700 Minister was arrested and the Health Department's put all the 413 00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:25,300 Mind against the minister. And I remember asking somebody 414 00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:27,100 from the health department who I didn't know, at the time, 415 00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:31,000 actually wrote one of the laws that criminalize people for this 416 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,000 and I asked him, why aren't you all trying to help him connect? 417 00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:38,700 A Brundage Water and Sewer since they have a public sewer there, 418 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:43,100 instead of making him pay thousands of dollars for an 419 00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:45,100 on-site system. That doesn't make any sense and 420 00:21:45,108 --> 00:21:48,200 the person said to me, it's a bad law, but we're going to 421 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,800 enforce it. That's the part. 422 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,900 That's so unfair about it. We went to court and it was 423 00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:58,000 eventually thrown out because the minister was really, he was 424 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,900 just a minister that work for a corporation and he was the wrong 425 00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:04,800 person that they sued. But there was a, this is a case 426 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,400 of people work Reaching Across the aisle that the attorney. 427 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,700 They represent him actually ran. We have to get an attorney to 428 00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:15,100 represent him to sue to get access to British Water and 429 00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:16,000 Sewer. Because the person who bought 430 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,100 the complaint against him, he had the sewer main on his 431 00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:22,300 property. 30 within 25 feet of the church. 432 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,600 So it would have made more sense for the health department to 433 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,900 facilitate them, connecting to source to the sewer system 434 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,600 instead of trying to convict him and put him in jail because he 435 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,300 wouldn't get the the expensive own site system that they wanted 436 00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:41,400 him to get in an area that had access to public school. 437 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,200 That's the kind of craziness that we're dealing with and 438 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,800 that's the kind of unfairness that happens within these 439 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,400 situations that that should not have occurred. 440 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,200 Is there any good? Faith explanation for that. 441 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,900 It does seem like a little bit like Petty tyranny or people 442 00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:01,200 just exercising power, indiscriminate idea. 443 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,400 I think they were exercising, power because even when the 444 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,200 sheriff at that particular time, did not want the health 445 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,100 department to execute that one tried to talk them out of it. 446 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,100 In terms of the example of people walking across the aisle, 447 00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:15,600 a person who's a local River, Keeper reached out to me and 448 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,900 said, I know an attorney that would sue on his behalf. 449 00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:23,100 This attorney had ran for a seat in the State House of 450 00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:25,600 Representatives. Presented as a Republican and he 451 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,700 was white, the minister was black, he ended up and he was 452 00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:33,600 local he Sue because he knew it was wrong but he because of who 453 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,600 he was as a person you know wanting to do the right thing 454 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,300 and wanted to be principal, he sued on behalf of the of the 455 00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:43,400 church. So they can connect to the sewer 456 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:44,900 system which would would have been. 457 00:23:44,900 --> 00:23:48,800 That was the easiest fix but instead it was almost the same 458 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,700 thing that happened when we were when we did the parasite study 459 00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:55,200 and the health We say that it wasn't even accurate. 460 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,300 I mean, because we use PCR technology which is commonly 461 00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:03,400 used today, they were not Visionaries, but it is commonly 462 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,100 used today in diagnosing and treating covid for an example. 463 00:24:07,100 --> 00:24:10,100 That's the kind of thinking we are going to have to get rid of 464 00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:12,700 some of these bureaucrats that have been in these offices for a 465 00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:14,200 long time. They take their own prejudices 466 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,800 with them and they use them and they get super charged through 467 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,800 policy to impact people in a negative way, instead of the way 468 00:24:22,808 --> 00:24:25,600 it It was intended, which was for the public good. 469 00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:28,400 How should we be thinking about policy? 470 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,700 And how might this be addressed in a, in a larger way? 471 00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:35,200 Well, I think one way in which we need to think about policy 472 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,700 is, is how do we dismantle and take power away from people that 473 00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:43,400 have used this the wrong way? Because often times they are not 474 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,400 replaced, they are still there, they're there until they retire. 475 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,600 Because as long as they have the support of the politicians who 476 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,200 have enabled them or empowered them to practice. 477 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,500 Very neat. They stay there especially on 478 00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:58,700 the state and local level so we need to get rid of them. 479 00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:03,200 I just I just heard from people in a town where an engineering 480 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,100 firm build a failed system. They are really upset because 481 00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:10,500 the engineering firm just got money to extend. 482 00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:13,700 The system that they built, that was failing in the first place 483 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,800 and they said that the town did not want to deal with them but 484 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,000 it was they said it was Agents from USDA that actually showed 485 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,100 up with the engineering. A representative of the 486 00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:27,400 engineering firm that pretty much forced to town to sign the 487 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,300 agreement, or they weren't going to get anything to repair it. 488 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,400 Those are the kinds of things that we need to change. 489 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,500 Is that type that level of corruption. 490 00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:39,800 That's occurring were folk that are in these positions are no 491 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,200 longer public servants, they're not serving the public good. 492 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,300 They're serving themselves and they're serving. 493 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,600 I'm assuming corporations that they represent or the people 494 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,100 that can afford to pay to the lobby, is to make sure that they 495 00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:54,800 always are in line. At the money even if the 496 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,900 technology or the infrastructure they put in place doesn't work, 497 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,800 that's where we're going to break the back of having. 498 00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:03,500 Even if you have all the money to go inside of these problems, 499 00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:07,100 you have the wrong people in place receiving it and designing 500 00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:10,800 systems that don't work. Our children and grandchildren 501 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,200 will be talking about this problem 30 and 40 years from 502 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,800 now, that is a fascinating answer. 503 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,700 Not the direction I expected you to go. 504 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,900 I've always loved the expression that Personnel is policy 505 00:26:22,100 --> 00:26:24,500 administrative rules. Are often times much more 506 00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:27,000 important than legislation or how things are interpreted by 507 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,900 the offices that are charged with carrying out the law. 508 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,700 So, that's such an interesting angle, no one ever focuses on 509 00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:36,400 that, everyone always talks about you need to support HR 510 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,800 2273 support this bill. It will solve everything from 511 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,500 the top down. You're like, it doesn't matter 512 00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:43,500 what you do up there in some cases if the people carrying it 513 00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:46,800 out or not good. I mean, if you look at just look 514 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,600 at the South and how the South put in place in pediments to 515 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,000 voting rights back in the 1960s, it didn't matter that the 516 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:54,900 Government. The rest of the country was on 517 00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:58,800 another trajectory but the South was going to be the South and 518 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,900 try to do everything. It could sit still enable Jim 519 00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:04,500 Crow and discrimination and we're starting to see some of 520 00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:07,800 that pop back up again, but that happens across the board. 521 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,900 But these kinds of issues are issues that impact the public 522 00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:14,200 good. And I think in order for us to 523 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,900 change that, we got to reveal it. 524 00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:18,400 And that's why I've it least with environmental justice 525 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,800 approach that has to be Community engagement. 526 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,300 I think the live, the anger that we see See bubbling up in this 527 00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:25,700 country. Even from people that I don't 528 00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:28,700 necessarily agree with their political views but a lot of 529 00:27:28,700 --> 00:27:31,700 that anger is coming because they're not nobody's listening 530 00:27:31,700 --> 00:27:34,500 to that. They're being told what to do 531 00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:37,700 from the top down and nobody's listening to them and nobody's 532 00:27:37,700 --> 00:27:39,800 going to these command, just seeing what the real problems 533 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,700 are. And even sometimes a the best 534 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,400 people that may be well intentioned or are actually 535 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,600 killing these communities because they haven't spent any 536 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,900 time there is not their focus and they can't go there and have 537 00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:55,800 a big crowd. These areas of very vital to our 538 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,000 survival as a country. That's where a lot of our food 539 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,400 is grown. You know, that's where a lot of 540 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,000 us are going to have to move to because of sea level rise when 541 00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:08,100 we can't live along the coastal areas anymore. 542 00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:12,500 We saw people moving to these areas even doing covid because 543 00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:14,300 they didn't want to be in crowded confines. 544 00:28:14,300 --> 00:28:16,700 They want to be someplace where they felt like they can roam 545 00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:19,900 around and be okay and not have to come in contact with a whole 546 00:28:19,900 --> 00:28:23,200 lot of people and potentially this this pandemic as well. 547 00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:26,600 Well, so that's why I think it's very, very important. 548 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,800 That will communities where people are also taxpayers also 549 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,800 benefit from what comes from the government. 550 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,900 You shouldn't just go to corporations. 551 00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:39,700 It should also go to those people that are living in these 552 00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:43,000 small towns because to me, small towns is what, that's what 553 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,900 America is all about. That's true. 554 00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:48,000 Americana, I was gonna ask you about that, too. 555 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,800 And some of these cases where people are living with open raw 556 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,400 sewage pits and Things of that nature. 557 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,000 Would they prefer to be connected to some sort of sewer 558 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,900 system? Or would they if they could 559 00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:02,700 afford it? Would they prefer to move? 560 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,500 I imagine, it's a mix. But what do you think about 561 00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:06,600 that? Well, how do you move from a 562 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,900 community where your churches where you went to school? 563 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,300 Your relatives are buried there. I mean, I think that their 564 00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:19,600 cultures and small communities that are there for a reason and 565 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,100 a lot of us can even those that are living in urban areas can 566 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,500 connect their family heritage to these small, these small towns. 567 00:29:27,900 --> 00:29:30,700 I mean, I'm being on genealogy now and a lot of people are 568 00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:33,900 going back to these communities to find out who they are. 569 00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:36,900 And I think the only way we're going to really find out who we 570 00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:40,600 are and really correct. A lot of the wrongs is when we 571 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,500 start getting more in touch with all of America and not just part 572 00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:49,300 of America and that includes rural communities to and I think 573 00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:51,100 that and we should have a choice. 574 00:29:51,100 --> 00:29:55,400 I mean, we got a big country. You know, from sea to shining 575 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,200 sea, when do we get to a point where we had to say that 576 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,900 everybody had to live in a city in order to have access to City 577 00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:05,800 to services that all of us should have access to? 578 00:30:06,100 --> 00:30:09,200 That's not the case in Europe. I just talked to people from the 579 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:15,100 PDS equivalent of in Italy where they don't have this problem. 580 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,500 When they've actually I've been told by one one journalist who 581 00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:20,800 interviewed me that they've outlawed septic systems in 582 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,600 Germany. I mean we need to look and see 583 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,800 what they're doing. And in other parts of the of the 584 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,400 world to treat Wastewater, you know, we because of the Gates 585 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,800 Foundation and its Noble fight to deal with the toilet. 586 00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:35,300 We just forgot about what happens once you flush the 587 00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:38,300 toilet and that's our Focus throughout our organization, the 588 00:30:38,308 --> 00:30:41,100 center for ruling, the prize and environmental justice is, make 589 00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:44,300 sure that we realize that once you flush the toilet, it has to 590 00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:47,000 be treated and it has to be treated in such a way, they are 591 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,600 nutrients that are in there that we can actually reuse. 592 00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:53,100 And part of our goal is to create the Technologies. 593 00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:58,000 Using not only the best Minds from the engineering and even 594 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,400 aeronautic engineering because they treat Wastewater to outer 595 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,300 space. I mean, I have space to drinking 596 00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:06,000 water quality. Why can't we do that here? 597 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,700 Why can't we create something that you can go to a Lowe's or 598 00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:12,700 Home Depot and buy? It is treat your Wastewater. 599 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,700 It would change the whole trajectory around where you 600 00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:18,500 settle where you live and whether or not you need to be 601 00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:22,000 connect to a store system. That events is gone dumping into 602 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,500 the ocean or To River or some other place where it shouldn't 603 00:31:25,500 --> 00:31:29,600 go, people would have their own composting or reactor for 604 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,000 biosolids. They would have a night soil 605 00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:34,800 making machine in their home, something like that. 606 00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:39,800 Well we haven't we're not going to expose what I concept is yet, 607 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,600 but we do have a concept that we want to develop and we're going 608 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,300 to work on it. And the difference in our 609 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:47,800 engineering Paradigm is that we're going to have impacted 610 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,300 people at the table at the beginning, helping with the 611 00:31:50,300 --> 00:31:53,000 design, because most of the people that are trying to design 612 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,900 us Lucien have no idea what the problem is because they haven't 613 00:31:55,900 --> 00:31:59,100 had to live with. That seems very wise to me. 614 00:31:59,100 --> 00:32:01,400 I'm sure you'll come up with an entirely different product than 615 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,800 if you did not include them until you were testing it or 616 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,500 really far down the line. Yeah, and that's part of the 617 00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:10,200 failures that I was Consulting. Recently, they, this group 618 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,800 reached out to me and asked me what I have a call with them 619 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,900 about a project. They were contacted by EPA 620 00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:21,000 because this Wastewater system was failing and is this area and 621 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,100 the local people would not cooperate with. 622 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:24,300 Them. I said, why not? 623 00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:27,500 And he's they said, well, they brought us on board to develop a 624 00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:30,900 system, to educate them about how to manage the system that 625 00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:32,700 they have, because that's why it's failed. 626 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,700 So how do you know that have you talked to them? 627 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,100 They said no, I said that's what's wrong with your design, 628 00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:40,800 that's why they're not cooperating with you. 629 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,300 How do you go into a community? You have never made any contact 630 00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:47,400 with them to tell them. That the reason their system is 631 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,100 failing is because they don't know how to maintain it and they 632 00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:52,800 need to be educated but you never asked them. 633 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:53,700 Why? Is it feeling? 634 00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:55,600 They know because they deal with it every day. 635 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,000 That's what's wrong with that pair of that. 636 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,900 That's why people are upset. That's why we have a divided 637 00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:04,400 because they're folk coming in that won't listen. 638 00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:07,000 And that's one of the most important things that we have to 639 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,400 do is start listening to each other. 640 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,200 By doing that asking the people themselves, what is the problem? 641 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,400 Explain that to me, what do you think the solution is? 642 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,500 And we probably would come up with better solutions that we 643 00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:21,700 have coming up from the top down. 644 00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:24,600 I think that's very wise. I think there's plenty of great 645 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,400 reasons to do that from ideological ones to more 646 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,400 practical concerns, Catherine, I have to ask you, because I've 647 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,800 been so enamored by the EJ concerns of your book that we 648 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,900 didn't really get to climate, which is okay. 649 00:33:36,900 --> 00:33:41,100 That happens sometimes, because it's all part of it. 650 00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:42,800 It's all part of it. Yeah, you've been involved with 651 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,600 the Joe Biden, task force on climate change. 652 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,600 You're involved with the White House, environmental justice 653 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,500 advisory Council. So I know there's a lot of 654 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,000 intersections here with climate change. 655 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,000 Maybe you can paint that for our listeners. 656 00:33:54,300 --> 00:33:57,100 Well, I can give you an example. You know, I'm a Storyteller 657 00:33:57,100 --> 00:33:59,500 because I'm from the country. So we always know we sit on the 658 00:33:59,500 --> 00:34:03,800 porch and tell stories, right? So one of the places that we can 659 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,100 look at and see what climate change is having an impact is 660 00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:09,699 Miami in the Miami area. They built all these communities 661 00:34:09,699 --> 00:34:14,600 or using septic systems. Miami has a over billion dollar 662 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,199 septic system problem, they're feeling because of sea level. 663 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:20,400 Rise would sea level rise? That means the water is coming 664 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,100 from the bottom, and the water is also coming. 665 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,300 From the top and he helped or sauce. 666 00:34:24,699 --> 00:34:27,500 And as a result that they're getting a lot of algae, blooms 667 00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:30,900 and fish kills and that's going to continue to increase. 668 00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:33,500 But it's not just my image throughout the State of Florida. 669 00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:36,600 We found that true here in Alabama to we're having more and 670 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,900 more flooding and Noah just issued a report that talked 671 00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:42,699 about how the West is going to get drier and it's going to get 672 00:34:42,699 --> 00:34:45,100 wetter in the East. What does that mean for us? 673 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,600 It means I water tables arise. One of the person's I wrote 674 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,000 about in the book was Pamela rush and Pam. 675 00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:54,600 No arrests lived. In a single-wide mobile home and 676 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,100 a donor came forward and wanted to give her another home because 677 00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:01,000 that one was dilapidated and she was not really protected that 678 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,900 much from the elements because of climate change in the being 679 00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:07,100 so hot and humid, the house was full of mold and mildew and her 680 00:35:07,100 --> 00:35:09,200 daughter was sleeping on a CPAP machine. 681 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,100 What stopped us from moving forward. 682 00:35:12,100 --> 00:35:15,600 Was that when we, the have acre property that she owned when we 683 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,500 wanted to put the septic tank, there we brought out the 684 00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:20,200 engineers. We did all the, it had all the 685 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,000 engineering work done. We pay for it. 686 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,400 And was told that the system debate that she needed on this 687 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,600 property, because the water table was so hot. 688 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,200 It's going to cost twenty eight thousand dollars. 689 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,500 They dug down 25 inches in struck water. 690 00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:37,500 What does that mean? That means that the water to 691 00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:40,100 we're talking about sea level rise but we're not talking about 692 00:35:40,100 --> 00:35:43,600 at least groundwater tables that are also rising and what that 693 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,300 means that that means that flooding is probably going to be 694 00:35:46,308 --> 00:35:49,600 more prevalent. But it also means that the 695 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,300 infrastructure that we put in the ground is not going to to 696 00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:55,900 work the same because it was not designed for that and that's why 697 00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:58,500 we're talking about working on new designs, dealing with the 698 00:35:58,500 --> 00:36:01,300 realities of what's going on on the ground now because people 699 00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:04,900 are still selling us stuff that if it had an expiration date 700 00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:09,300 would have expired 15 or 20 years ago, And we can't do this 701 00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:12,100 with infrastructure because it's too critical to our public 702 00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:14,800 health and that's where climate change intersects. 703 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,700 And that's why we have found hookworm and other tropical 704 00:36:18,700 --> 00:36:21,000 parasites in places like Lowndes County. 705 00:36:21,300 --> 00:36:23,800 And after my book came out, I actually heard from a 706 00:36:23,808 --> 00:36:26,100 veterinarian who told me that they're starting to find 707 00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:29,800 hookworm and dogs in Alaska, what? 708 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,600 That should be a warning to us. All That's the tropical parasite 709 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,200 and it's in Alaska. Yeah, wow. 710 00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:40,100 If someone wanted to keep up with your work, Catherine, 711 00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:41,400 what's the best way for them to do? 712 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,100 So what they are a couple ways when they can go to our website, 713 00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:49,800 which is www.crestbuy.se, EJ dot, or that's the Center for 714 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,900 Rural Enterprise and environmental justice? 715 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,800 You can also follow me on Twitter, I'm on Facebook and on 716 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:02,500 Instagram, you read the book. We are also engaged in a year 717 00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:05,500 long Ang project with the Guardian newspaper where we're 718 00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:07,000 looking at. Waste water issues around the 719 00:37:07,008 --> 00:37:08,700 country. We're asking people to self 720 00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:10,700 report. So if you're interested in doing 721 00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:15,800 that, you can go to the website on that link and self-report 722 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,500 Wastewater problems because out of that are coming stories but 723 00:37:18,500 --> 00:37:22,100 we are also pulling together documentation on Wastewater 724 00:37:22,100 --> 00:37:24,900 issues around the country. So if you are aware of a 725 00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:27,100 Wastewater issue, you can contact me directly. 726 00:37:27,100 --> 00:37:30,800 I will respond and we can try to make sure that we include that 727 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,600 in the database that we're developing. 728 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:35,100 Because we feel that policymakers are not going to 729 00:37:35,107 --> 00:37:37,600 make good policy until we have the data to show them. 730 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,200 That this is a problem and it's very widespread and why it is 731 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,500 the way it is. And we need people not the 732 00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:46,200 people that benefit from the crowd. 733 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,500 We need the people that are suffering from the problem speak 734 00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:51,300 to us, because I haven't, that will come to Solutions. 735 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,700 A great place to leave it. Thanks for being here. 736 00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:58,600 Catherine, thank you so much. It's my pleasure links to all of 737 00:37:58,607 --> 00:38:00,400 those things are in the show notes, and if you like what we 738 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:01,900 do, please send this show to a friend. 739 00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:04,300 Give us a great reading and Review, an apple podcast, and 740 00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:06,000 thank you so much for being a listener. 741 00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:13,600 Thank you so much for listening. If you like the show, please 742 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,300 rate and review it in apple podcast and or Stitcher. 743 00:38:16,300 --> 00:38:19,000 It really helps us a lot to get this content to a wider 744 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,700 audience. If you think what we're doing is 745 00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:23,700 useful, interesting fun. Hopefully, all three, we 746 00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:25,200 certainly appreciate your rating and review. 747 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,100 You can keep up with Nori at nor e.com where there is a 748 00:38:28,107 --> 00:38:31,700 newsletter that's nor e.com. Subscribe, there's podcast, 749 00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:34,100 there's a whole bunch else. Or you can send us an email at 750 00:38:34,100 --> 00:38:37,600 podcast at nor e.com. We are also now on patreon at 751 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,100 patreon.com Nori podcasts, if you'd like more content 752 00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:43,800 engagement and community, and thank you so much for your 753 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:44,500 support