1 00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:06,400 You're listening to the reversing climate change, 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,500 podcast by the team at Nori. The carbon removal Marketplace. 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,100 This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs 4 00:00:12,100 --> 00:00:14,100 developing solutions to climate change. 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,400 Hello and welcome to the reversing climate change 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,500 podcast. I'm Ross Kenyon I am the 7 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:23,200 creative editor at Nori's carbon removal Marketplace. 8 00:00:23,500 --> 00:00:26,600 Today I have with me Kim makoi oceanographer who wrote The 9 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,500 Third Edition, of waves and beaches the powerful dynamics of 10 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:32,800 seeing Coast by Willard Bascom. Thank you for being here. 11 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,200 Kim, thank you for having me Ross. 12 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:38,100 This book is beautiful. I'm very glad to have you. 13 00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:42,600 It's illustrations and it's just a beautiful aesthetic 14 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,700 experience, which is a wonderful thing to say about something 15 00:00:46,700 --> 00:00:51,100 that is either aspirationally a textbook or is a light textbook. 16 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,100 But my understanding is that this book is a classic and a 17 00:00:54,100 --> 00:00:57,300 listener, listening to the admittedly strange way. 18 00:00:57,300 --> 00:00:59,900 I introduce you. How could you write a third? 19 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,800 Of a book by someone else. What is the story of waves and 20 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:05,700 beaches and how did you come to be involved in it? 21 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:10,700 Well, we've seen beaches went through two prior editions and I 22 00:01:10,700 --> 00:01:15,100 use the first edition when I was in graduate school and as many 23 00:01:15,500 --> 00:01:20,500 classic texts, they go through multiple editions and Willard 24 00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:23,100 had thought about doing a third edition. 25 00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:27,600 He handed it to me one day and said here, read this and I was 26 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,800 taken aback, much older than I am. 27 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:34,400 I'm much more accomplished and so I give him my reviews after a 28 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,200 couple of weeks and he liked it. So unfortunate. 29 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,200 He was hit by a car and died shortly thereafter. 30 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:48,100 So intervening few years, the estate asked me if I wanted to 31 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,600 do the Third Edition. So many years later we've 32 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:57,700 succeeded with Patagonia and it's been completely updated for 33 00:01:57,700 --> 00:02:01,400 the 21st century, and it has a gold Threat of climate change 34 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,100 through the entire Coastal world. 35 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,500 There's a lot of climate change in the book. 36 00:02:07,700 --> 00:02:11,500 Sort of is a thread is, maybe a good way to think of it. 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,200 One other thread that I noticed that helped me anchor, all the 38 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:19,800 discussions about oceans and World Systems is how important 39 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,400 it is to think about the energy that is present in systems like 40 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,200 this. And what it means in general to 41 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,600 increase or decrease the amount of energy Within in a system, as 42 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,600 a non-scientist, is this a theme that I should have picked up on 43 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:40,100 as important as it may be is or is not Absolutely Ross. 44 00:02:40,100 --> 00:02:42,100 You hit it, hit the nail on the head. 45 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,200 So for instance, this just take something as simple as a damn, 46 00:02:46,900 --> 00:02:50,100 that dams a river. So let's go Downstream and I'll 47 00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:53,100 come back up to the dam. So Downstream the amount of 48 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:57,000 sediment reaching the coast is diminished and you have Coastal 49 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,500 erosion because you've reduced the sediments. 50 00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:04,100 Now, you can view the dam. Upstream is really, it's holding 51 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:08,400 the potential energy of the water in reserve. 52 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,300 Goes off and produces electricity or Gates. 53 00:03:11,300 --> 00:03:14,800 Crops it does something else other than moving sediments 54 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,900 Downstream. So the humans have co-opted so 55 00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:22,800 to say the energy of the flowing water as you moves down the 56 00:03:22,808 --> 00:03:26,700 river bed, moving sediments and nourishes, the coastal zone. 57 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,500 So it's a diversion of energy and that is happening 58 00:03:31,500 --> 00:03:34,200 everywhere. We look one other application. 59 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:39,200 I saw that really caught my imagination is that With climate 60 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,400 change in the world heating up. Heat is another way of saying 61 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,600 energy, perhaps, and there's more energy in the system and 62 00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:51,700 for lack of a better word, the system is more energetic, there 63 00:03:51,700 --> 00:03:55,600 is more weather events, there are more things happening. 64 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,500 And when they do happen, the magnitudes or greater is that 65 00:03:58,500 --> 00:04:00,000 broadly, a correct understanding. 66 00:04:00,500 --> 00:04:02,400 Yes. For instance, something that 67 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,500 people online and can easily understand certainly in North 68 00:04:05,500 --> 00:04:08,600 America is we have the jet stream. 69 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,800 Some people call it the polar vortex and it's a basically 70 00:04:13,300 --> 00:04:17,399 winds that Circle and the Northern Hemisphere and from 71 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:20,600 left to right. If you will from west to east 72 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,700 and these have changed in their behavior and I'll just give you 73 00:04:25,700 --> 00:04:28,100 a simple example, if you had an inclined plane. 74 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,700 So piece of plywood and you pour a little water on it. 75 00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:36,100 The steepness of that piece of wood is not very much water sort 76 00:04:36,100 --> 00:04:38,600 of trickles down with meanders left and right a little bit. 77 00:04:38,700 --> 00:04:43,400 It it doesn't know what to do, so there's not a large as we 78 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,400 call it energy gradient, but you put that piece of wood really 79 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,600 Steep and pour a little bit of water on it and it goes down 80 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,000 that just straight as an arrow straight to the bottom. 81 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:59,000 So those two examples are similar to what's occurring with 82 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,900 the jet stream. It's Meandering larger because 83 00:05:01,900 --> 00:05:06,800 the difference, the temperature difference between the lower 84 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:12,000 latitudes and the Northern latitudes is less that potential 85 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:18,800 energy if you will is less. So it meanders more and that's 86 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,800 over simplification in many ways to express that interview it. 87 00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:25,900 But that's a simple view of what's happening. 88 00:05:25,900 --> 00:05:31,400 So when we get a period in Texas where it's 85 degrees one day 89 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,100 and the next day, it's below zero, like, would they just had 90 00:05:35,100 --> 00:05:40,200 a terrible cold spell? It's because The path of the jet 91 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,200 stream has been allowed to be altered and those sorts of 92 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:49,200 phenomena are going on. Everywhere, is it right to 93 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,100 attribute weather events. Like what just happened in Texas 94 00:05:53,100 --> 00:05:58,000 as being the result in energy changes overall in the Earth's 95 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,000 system as a whole. Well, it's always been that way. 96 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,700 Yeah, you know the meanders of a river the meanders of the jet 97 00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:11,100 stream or a function of Flow of energy and turbulence in the 98 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:16,800 atmosphere and low over small and large pieces of 99 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:21,600 sedimentation. So the paths in the frequency 100 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,800 that those pads may be reached is intimately connected with the 101 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,500 difference in temperature in the atmosphere. 102 00:06:30,900 --> 00:06:34,700 So fluid dynamics in the atmosphere is driven by 103 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,300 temperature barometric pressure and relative humidity. 104 00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:42,200 When any of those three parameters change in the 105 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,800 atmosphere, the path of winds and hence the path of weather 106 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,100 will change. That's no secret. 107 00:06:50,100 --> 00:06:51,700 Yeah. Actually, as I'm asking this 108 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:55,400 question, I'm second-guessing myself because once you're at 109 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,400 that zoomed out level the questions you ask or something 110 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:03,200 like do changes in the earth's systems result in changes on 111 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,700 Earth and feel like that's sort of a tautology or fast a 112 00:07:07,700 --> 00:07:12,400 questionnaire. Even my asking so that we live 113 00:07:12,700 --> 00:07:19,200 above a solid earth in below of fluid Sky, that's where we are 114 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:25,200 in the ocean and any change to anything above or below will 115 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,200 change the ocean. And likewise, if you change the 116 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,100 ocean, it will change the atmosphere. 117 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:36,200 So it's a dynamic that has periods that are some very short 118 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,500 and I outline that in waves and beaches. 119 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:43,500 Some so short in occurrence that you can barely see them with an. 120 00:07:43,500 --> 00:07:49,300 I notice some in a second and others so long and so large, you 121 00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:51,800 cannot see him during the human lifetime. 122 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,000 Wow wait sorry. I feel like I feel like I missed 123 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,200 the beginning of the. Are you saying that there's 124 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,400 waves that are so big that you couldn't detect them over the 125 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,100 course of a human lifetime? Or did I misunderstand you, you 126 00:08:01,100 --> 00:08:03,600 have you understood? Absolutely right. 127 00:08:03,700 --> 00:08:07,600 No figure. Forget the figure, but it's like 128 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,700 17 or something. That in waves and beaches has a 129 00:08:10,700 --> 00:08:14,900 graph of the different types of waves. 130 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,300 And one wave that we are experiencing is the wave of 131 00:08:19,300 --> 00:08:23,100 climate change. Now, when the earth becomes 132 00:08:23,100 --> 00:08:28,500 colder than prior more, liquid water will turn to solid water. 133 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:32,299 And what we're going through right now is the opposite so 134 00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:37,500 during a period of climate warming as we have now more 135 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,500 solid Waters turning to liquid water. 136 00:08:41,100 --> 00:08:46,300 That causes a rise in sea level. That's a very, very slow period 137 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:51,100 wave that wave currently has about a six-inch magnitude over 138 00:08:51,100 --> 00:08:55,000 the last 150 years. 100 years actually. 139 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,400 So that's 15. Cm 6 inches in 100 years, that's 140 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,500 a slowly Rising wave. A wave of climate change. 141 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,700 Now, how large that's going to get and whether or not we can 142 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:11,300 predict it is yet to be seen. But it's a slow moving wave, you 143 00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:14,800 can view it as a wave of solid ice turning to liquid and moving 144 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,700 towards the equator. That's what's happening is that 145 00:09:18,700 --> 00:09:22,500 a case of an oceanographer taking poetic license or deal 146 00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:25,100 actually speak like that. And do you climate change as a 147 00:09:25,100 --> 00:09:31,000 way? That is perhaps one of the 148 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,100 original thoughts in waves and beaches. 149 00:09:33,900 --> 00:09:39,500 Interesting. Chapter 5 is the Winds and waves 150 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:44,000 of climate change in waves and beaches cam. 151 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,300 What other ideas would you say? Our original? 152 00:09:47,300 --> 00:09:51,700 And here because the book feels like a reference manual or a 153 00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:54,700 textbook almost. But surely, there are ideas that 154 00:09:54,700 --> 00:09:57,500 are perhaps new or you're presenting a new ways. 155 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,700 What else is in here? That is in that same theme or in 156 00:10:01,708 --> 00:10:06,100 that same form, I could say what a very small length scale and 157 00:10:06,100 --> 00:10:09,300 time scale. So the very creation Of waves, 158 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:12,800 waves, ocean waves are created by the wind blowing on the 159 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,400 surface of the ocean and small. Ripples actually they're called 160 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,800 capillary waves, very short period waves. 161 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:25,200 The wavelength is a width of your thumbnail, very small short 162 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,400 period waves. The very formation of these ways 163 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:35,200 is based upon surface tension. So surface tension and to a 164 00:10:35,208 --> 00:10:40,200 lesser degree the viscosity which is Tendency of a fluid to 165 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:45,700 resist Shear. So with surface tension, that is 166 00:10:45,700 --> 00:10:50,800 dependent upon temperature. So the very transfer of the 167 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:58,000 Winds energy into wave energy is being Modified by the viscosity 168 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,300 of the Water. By the surface tension of the 169 00:11:01,308 --> 00:11:03,000 water, both of which are changing. 170 00:11:03,300 --> 00:11:06,100 The surface tension is the most significant but both are 171 00:11:06,100 --> 00:11:08,500 changing to my knowledge. No one's written. 172 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,400 About this honor climate length scale. 173 00:11:13,100 --> 00:11:15,700 What does this do to the general formation of waves? 174 00:11:15,700 --> 00:11:20,100 We do know from satellite data that wind speeds have been 175 00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:22,200 increasing. We do know that in certain 176 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:27,500 portions of the world's oceans, the size of ocean waves, these 177 00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:31,700 large, many meters. So, tens of feet tall waves. 178 00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:34,800 They're changing their getting a little bit larger. 179 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,700 These storms are getting more intense and they're very short 180 00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:39,900 periods of extreme. Dreamily intense winds. 181 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,700 We see that in Hurricane Seasons. 182 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,600 So there are some things that are happening in very short 183 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,500 length, scales that people have not really researched and 184 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:53,700 they're also these longer period things such as climate change 185 00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:57,200 the winds and waves of climate change that many people dream 186 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,700 about this relates to a question. 187 00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:05,200 I had with a former guest. Have you ever read John 188 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,000 kretzmann do you know him by chance? 189 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,600 No. Unfortunately, I do I don't mean 190 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,400 to put you on the spot that we had. 191 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,400 John kretschmer on the show. He's a sailor and other done a 192 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,600 number of transoceanic sales, and rounded the cape and things 193 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,000 like that. And we were talking about how 194 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,300 climate change is changing his business and how he thinks about 195 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:29,200 sailing. And he was talking about how the 196 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:34,200 window for Crossing, from the Northeast to Bermuda is 197 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,700 shrinking because of hurricane season lengthening or Worried 198 00:12:38,700 --> 00:12:43,700 about changes in the trade winds and how predictable they are in 199 00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:47,000 their sort of a the comment or setting of the trade winds that 200 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,000 they're incredibly dependable. And he has at least anecdotal 201 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,100 experience of them. No longer being nearly so 202 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:57,200 dependable. Have you seen much of that? 203 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,200 Is that is he on to something or is that relatively anecdotal? 204 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,100 It's anecdotal from him. However, it's statistically 205 00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:09,500 substantiated by scientific data, that the Grandma wants 206 00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:10,100 their. Yeah. 207 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,400 And in waves and beaches talk about the cumulated cyclonic, 208 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:19,000 energy a c e. And that's basically if you add 209 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,800 up the number of cyclones in the amount of energy in each 210 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,700 Cyclone, so you have you have a whirring Cyclone at 200 miles an 211 00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:31,300 hour for two days. It's a little different than if 212 00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:36,900 you have a cyclone that with 100 mile an hour for one day because 213 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:40,100 of the difference in. The speeds, it's not linear 214 00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:45,300 would speed the energy and so there's more energy going into 215 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:51,600 the Atlantic hurricanes. That's well documented and, you 216 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,500 know, we don't have an infinitely, long historical 217 00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:59,100 record but we do have a record going back about 100 years and 218 00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:05,100 many of the hurricane seasons have been extended in the last 219 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:09,500 two decades, and the number of storms, I think Don't forget me 220 00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:13,800 go, they ran out of alphabet letters in the alphabet for the 221 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,800 number of hurricanes in the season, so it's not just 222 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,100 anecdotal from Sailors. It's also from data, from 223 00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:27,100 scientific measurements. I've seen people try to counter 224 00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:31,600 this argument by saying not we experience more extreme weather 225 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,600 events these days because of better monitoring that more 226 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,400 people live in these areas more people are live on the ghosts in 227 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,600 that there actually is not an increase in extreme weather 228 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,700 events. I find this to be a questionable 229 00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:48,700 assertion, you see it made sometimes, but my you saying 230 00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:52,100 response. What my own opinion. 231 00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:56,000 It is rather questionable assertion, please help out. 232 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,200 However, I mean, if you look at the storm in Galveston is 233 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,000 referred to, as Galveston storm of 1900. 234 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,600 So, 121 years ago, deaths, take Galveston, there weren't that 235 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:12,200 many people in Galveston but the 2004 Hurricane, Katrina 236 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:18,200 devastated, New Orleans, and we have indeed more people living 237 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,300 by the coastal zone. In the coastal zone and low 238 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:24,300 levels, I think there's something like 500 million 239 00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:28,100 people live below. You know, 30 feet of elevation, 240 00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:32,500 that's a large number. So there's really two ways to 241 00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:35,000 view. This one is the amount of 242 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,500 Devastation is just linear with the number of people living on 243 00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:41,700 the coast line and and is independent of any data that you 244 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:44,900 may or may not have just one more people in the Libyan Coast 245 00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:45,600 Line. You're going to have more 246 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:46,700 damage. Okay. 247 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,600 That's one. One aspect. 248 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,500 The other one is let's do it. straight straight at the, look 249 00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:54,500 at the data and let's not look at how many people are living 250 00:15:54,500 --> 00:16:00,200 there and you look at the episodic events things that we 251 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,700 call for 10 years storms or 100 Year storms or Thousand Years 252 00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:11,200 storms, what used to be a five hundred year storm in some areas 253 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,200 is now 100 Year storm because the statistics are changing and 254 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,900 it's not because we don't have more data, it's the data, we 255 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,500 Have is now being massively skewed by ongoing events, almost 256 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,700 by today's weather. And if you look at for instance, 257 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,300 simple thing the Mekong Delta or the Mississippi Delta, they 258 00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:36,700 formed of the last 5,000 years generically you look what's 259 00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:40,200 happened in Mississippi Delta, it's absolute ecological 260 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,700 disaster. Now, you might have an overlay 261 00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:45,900 of really nice. Good sound bites of people that 262 00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:49,500 are interested in doing business in the Mississippi River. 263 00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:55,000 Delta But it's polluted, it's sinking and the people in the 264 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:00,000 coastal region are losing their land and their mineral rights as 265 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:05,700 our land subsides below the legal point of federal versus 266 00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:09,800 private land ownership, and this is not imaginary. 267 00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:15,500 So, what has been stable for 5000 years is now unstable. 268 00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:21,800 The Mekong Delta is now unstable because Of Dykes, lots of Dykes 269 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,800 in Mississippi River, delta 2. So the dikes change, the flow of 270 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:32,000 water, they cause a flood to discharge lots of water, all of 271 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:33,800 a sudden, it flushes sediments out. 272 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,600 And hence, the Delta is not nourished with new settlements 273 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,600 and also, you have to buy more fertilizer to perform the 274 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,800 agricultural activities. So removing the humans from the 275 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,300 equation and just looking at the land. 276 00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:50,200 Yeah, it's changing big. Time. 277 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,000 And there's lots of data, and we've got a call it geological 278 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,100 and geochemical data from Delta areas through sedimentology. 279 00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:00,900 And other methods, that show that these things have been 280 00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:04,700 relatively stable for the better part of five thousand years and 281 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,500 gee what a coincidence. Well, we've had relatively 282 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:12,000 stable, sea level for the last 4,000 years. 283 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:14,600 So hmm. All right. 284 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,000 Forget the people is just the Deltas are disappearing, and a 285 00:18:18,008 --> 00:18:19,500 whole bunch of other things are changing. 286 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,600 Ross, you make up your mind. Yeah. 287 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,900 Well fair enough. Thanks for digging into that. 288 00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:27,400 For me. You mentioned something that I 289 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,500 found very interesting in this book and there's a lot more to 290 00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:34,600 say about it but the relationship between Shoreline 291 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,700 and property. And when private property goes 292 00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:42,800 to public property as a result of changing sea level man, that 293 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,900 just sounds like a lawyers are going to get very rich off of 294 00:18:45,908 --> 00:18:47,000 that. It sounds like is what I'm 295 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,200 trying to say. How exactly is that going to 296 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,000 work? What do you foresee? 297 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,500 Can you explain it to our audience? 298 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,600 Yeah. Property rights are defined in 299 00:18:55,608 --> 00:18:58,600 different areas with different datums, but let's just use for 300 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,700 general purpose. The low low water line. 301 00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:05,500 So, that's if you look at, well, it's just called low water line. 302 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:10,400 So if you average the low tides, that's generically under some 303 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,500 jurisdictions, where the property rights of the 304 00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:16,800 individual and, and the federal government begin. 305 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:24,500 So imagine a slope of land One and 100 and you say it's one 306 00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:27,800 foot vertical versus 100 feet out. 307 00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:31,100 That means our be 1 meter versus 100 meters. 308 00:19:31,100 --> 00:19:35,300 Doesn't matter. And you have a sea level rise of 309 00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:38,500 6 inches on on that one and 100 slope. 310 00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:41,500 Well, that means you're going to lose half of that distance. 311 00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:46,200 That's 50 feet of coastal land. You can lose so that. 312 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,400 Piece of that demarcation were in a private landowners land 313 00:19:52,100 --> 00:19:55,800 ended in the federal government took over, just moved back 314 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,300 towards the new Shoreline in favor of the federal government 315 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,900 and to the detriment of the private landowner and also the 316 00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:06,100 mineral rights below. So, if you've got gas and oil 317 00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:09,500 rights or you've been sand mining, or you got a shrimp farm 318 00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:12,000 or whatever, sorry dude you just lost those. 319 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,100 I think you mentioned there to that some of some of these 320 00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:18,300 seizures. Others by the government have 321 00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:22,300 already happened in places, is it sort of pretty open-and-shut 322 00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:24,900 legally? Does that just happen rather 323 00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:29,000 easily relative to some prolonged suit, but depends on 324 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,700 who's on the land side. For sure of it, if it's, you 325 00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:40,900 know gas and oil company that has some mineral rights granted 326 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:44,400 by an individual, they might fight for it if it's less 327 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,300 expensive than the federal government granting that Or vice 328 00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:49,600 or conversely. So depends on which side of the 329 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,700 argument, your honor and how much money's on, which side and 330 00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:55,600 they also stuck between States, you know, for instance, Georgia 331 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,500 and Florida and in legal battle, and California. 332 00:20:59,500 --> 00:21:06,000 Arizona, New Mexico, they're all with water rights and discharges 333 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,400 on to beaches. And so, you know, somebody 334 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,200 builds a dam up stream, the sediments, don't reach the 335 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,800 coastal zone and then you get erosion and then your nice 336 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,500 little Beach. I've been there for five 337 00:21:17,500 --> 00:21:20,700 thousand years in there anymore so there's all sorts of 338 00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:25,400 litigation going on and I'm not in that field but it's easy to 339 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,500 research those if listeners interested, it's very much of 340 00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:33,700 interest to me and I'll let you off the hook him up. 341 00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:36,900 Make you socks, you much more about if it's not something that 342 00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:39,000 you're actively researching this way. 343 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,500 But I hardly ever hear anyone speaking about this, I think in 344 00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:46,500 general the ocean gets less attention than it. 345 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,500 Should for climate reasons, think ocean acidification is 346 00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:52,100 really scary. I think some of these feedback 347 00:21:52,100 --> 00:21:55,100 loops given the lags in the system, the interaction between 348 00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:58,900 the atmosphere and the ocean, not being immediately visible. 349 00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:01,700 In all the kinds of ways that I don't know, like some of those 350 00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:05,100 Cycles take longer than maybe human brains are evolved to 351 00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:07,400 notice how it feels counterintuitive to us. 352 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,600 So we end up looking at polar bears rather than the ocean in 353 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,300 some cases. Do you feel a bit neglected in 354 00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:16,000 that way or my projecting onto you? 355 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:22,900 All right, my mother never neglected me Community overall 356 00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:28,800 well as an oceanographer my focus has been the ocean, you 357 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,700 know, aquatic world's worked in lakes. 358 00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:35,500 Also so we've been biased this you know, the Earth Sciences 359 00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:40,000 have been biased towards liquid Earth. 360 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:46,200 So to say and 70% of the surface of the Earth is liquid and not. 361 00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:48,600 70% of the world's population lives. 362 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,100 It see, that's quite the inverse. 363 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,300 It's very, very few people, live at Sea. 364 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,200 I've been lucky to have spent over five years of my life at 365 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,800 Sea. I've done nine, polar 366 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:04,000 Expeditions, your of my life. So I'm biased towards the 367 00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:11,300 Aquatic world and the Earth. Some people refer to it as a cry 368 00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:16,200 arose fear, you know, the atmosphere and and polar caps. 369 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,200 And The river system, the hydrological cycle, it's all 370 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:24,500 connected. Well, that is where most of the 371 00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:28,700 photosynthesis takes place, somewhere between 50 and 80. 372 00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:34,100 Percent of all photosynthesis taking place in the ocean and 373 00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:37,700 large lakes. So you know we look at. 374 00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:41,000 Yeah. The polar bear is in, do the sea 375 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,800 otters and you know, the dugongs and there. 376 00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:46,200 Oh, terrible, terrible things. You know, the panda. 377 00:23:46,300 --> 00:23:51,500 Has don't have any more bamboo but out at sea or species, we've 378 00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:54,500 never heard of that are near the brink. 379 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,200 But that's it's not the chordata, not animals, with 380 00:24:00,300 --> 00:24:03,400 spinal cords, it's the issue. You know, the as I mentioned, 381 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:08,900 the phytoplankton is really important and there's between 382 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,300 50, and 80% of the world's photosynthesis takes place at 383 00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:21,700 Sea and one little dude, he's it's the smallest photosynthetic 384 00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:26,100 organism on Earth prochlorococcus, I think has 385 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:30,100 pronounced the smallest organism that photosynthesizes. 386 00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:34,600 Produces 20% of all oxygen, it's phenomenal. 387 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,500 It's it's microscopic we can't even see it. 388 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,000 And so below the Earth's surface, Internal waves, mixed 389 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,400 the oxygen-rich portions of the oceans with the upper ocean. 390 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,800 It causes this primary productivity to go on. 391 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:52,200 So when we starve, the oceans of river discharge the nutrients 392 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,600 that would go normally into the ocean. 393 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,500 Well, we're actually cutting off the necessary nutrients for 394 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:02,700 these phytoplankton. So, nobody's going out there and 395 00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:04,600 saying hey, save the phytoplankton. 396 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,300 You can't even see these dudes, you know, but it's extremely 397 00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:14,100 significant, I think 20% Percent of all Co to take up, is rather 398 00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:17,500 significant for something in the ocean, but you can't see it. 399 00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:22,300 What do you think of efforts that are typically called sea 400 00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:24,600 salt like iron fertilization or ocean? 401 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,100 Fertilization of dropping iron shavings into the ocean, to 402 00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:32,800 stimulate the growth of various types of Plankton that will die 403 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:37,100 float to the bottom of the sea floor and be a form of captured 404 00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:39,600 carbon that I missed characterize it. 405 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:42,100 Not at all. You have mischaracterizing. 406 00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:46,800 Luckily I knew John Martin, John Martin was the marine biologist 407 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:52,100 to I think originally recognized that iron was a limiting factor 408 00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:55,100 and they call it ocean fertilization and they've been 409 00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:57,500 several experiments been done. I think when somebody off the 410 00:25:57,500 --> 00:26:01,800 Northwest no permits or anything, he's got a barge full 411 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,500 of iron, tailings and threw it in the ocean and measured 412 00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:09,500 primary productivity and so well it went up so there's a lot. 413 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,500 You know, yes it's been not only theorized John Martin your 414 00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:18,600 original guy but it some Wildcat people have actually even done 415 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,300 these experiments. I was involved with Japanese 416 00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:25,300 group that did a very small-scale test of iron 417 00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:33,000 fertilization and yes it works. And you mentioned the removal of 418 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,100 the carbon from the upper ocean. That's called sequestering. 419 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:44,000 So You know, somebody wants to grow a tree on earth, that's 420 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,000 great. Wonderful. 421 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,500 However, when that tree dies, it then decomposes in then once 422 00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:51,500 again produces CO2 in that process. 423 00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:55,500 So the marine organisms on the other hand when they die, they 424 00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:58,900 go below the photic zone. That go beyond that. 425 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,500 Hi mixing Zone in the upper ocean. 426 00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:03,500 They go beyond that. And they form the ocean 427 00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:06,300 sediments like to have for millions of years. 428 00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:09,300 It's who's that? You'll find all over the Deep. 429 00:27:09,700 --> 00:27:15,000 Mmm, and that is a very valid way of sequestering carbon 430 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,700 dioxide. Now, if you can get something to 431 00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:22,700 photosynthesize like kelp believe you mentioned something 432 00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,500 about gulp, I know some people involved in that effort. 433 00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:30,800 There are several efforts and that is a valid way if you allow 434 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,700 the organisms to die off into the deep ocean, that's a valid 435 00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:38,900 way of getting rid of the carbon dioxide in the upper ocean. 436 00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:43,800 For a few million years. That's a significant we can 437 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,600 figure it out in other ways and in the longer term. 438 00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:51,300 Yeah, I think the iron fertilization stuff is 439 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:57,300 potentially riskier or Spooks people more than something like 440 00:27:57,700 --> 00:28:01,500 growing kelp and dropping it into a deep enough part of the 441 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:05,500 ocean where it's really not mixing with the ocean enough to 442 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,700 come back. There's a group called Running 443 00:28:07,700 --> 00:28:09,800 tide that is has been doing this. 444 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,400 I know Brian bomb hurts in who's been on the show a number of 445 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,800 times to talk about his Marine permaculture efforts super 446 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,300 Interesting. So stuff like that is going on 447 00:28:19,300 --> 00:28:21,700 though, and I think it's getting more and more attention. 448 00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:23,500 These days is that your experience to. 449 00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:29,400 It's getting a lot more attention, unfortunately, I, you 450 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,800 know, you might call this a form of terraforming, you know, like 451 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,800 some size inside Phi is Bring It On terraforming, you know. 452 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,400 So they're people that are trying to spray aerosols in the 453 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,600 atmosphere to change the Albedo of the Earth, the Albedo is 454 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:51,000 basically Be the ratio of the incoming solar radiation versus 455 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:56,400 the reflected radiation, and if you increase the Albedo, that 456 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,800 means it more is being reflected out and that means that there's 457 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:06,200 less heat being retained in the greenhouse effect, but that 458 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,300 doesn't change the acidification of the oceans. 459 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,000 So sort of like the Sorcerer's. Apprentice You changed a little 460 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,000 something over here before. Oh, there's too many, if you 461 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,700 remember that Disney Fantasia kind of thing, you know, where 462 00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:27,300 there's a fellow, trying to stop the flow of water, and the 463 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,800 inundation is just too great for the Innovative methods. 464 00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:38,300 And I'm constantly reminded of that little cartoon in my head, 465 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,300 that we're like the Little Dutch boy, with the finger. 466 00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:46,200 In the diet, you know, we're trying to stop something in a 467 00:29:46,208 --> 00:29:50,500 very honest and concerted manner, but the complexity of it 468 00:29:50,900 --> 00:29:54,800 is Way Beyond human comprehension and comprehension 469 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:00,300 and certainly Beyond political means the politics of this is 470 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,900 everybody's blaming everybody for everything. 471 00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:09,900 But what really needs to be done is we need to make started sort 472 00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:15,700 of city council level and have The codification really of 473 00:30:15,700 --> 00:30:20,300 climate change implemented, which means that instead of 474 00:30:20,300 --> 00:30:26,300 having city state federal, even super National entities 475 00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:30,800 responding to disasters, it's better to address the root 476 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:36,900 problems than internally, combat the symptoms so that if you make 477 00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:40,200 it legal for this, just take a city council. 478 00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:45,700 To act. When you give some Metric, you 479 00:30:45,700 --> 00:30:51,700 know, when a storm surge is above a certain level or when a 480 00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:57,300 sea wall is breached at a certain height, some Metric. 481 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,300 And you codify that instead, he went into these things happens. 482 00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:05,100 The city council is already empowered to do something. 483 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,000 Now, the Dutch of done that for a good part, better part of two 484 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,900 decades, they've got it right? They built this 400 485 00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:18,500 million-dollar Rotterdam barrier and it's worked. 486 00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:20,900 A couple of times, it's been around for 20 years. 487 00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:25,300 Well, Hurricane Katrina was 50 or 100 billion dollars in 488 00:31:25,300 --> 00:31:28,900 damage. Building with Abby, whereas the 489 00:31:28,908 --> 00:31:33,700 Rotterdam barrier that they've used twice it, cost 400 million 490 00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:35,800 Euros. So throw a dart say, 500 million 491 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:40,300 dollars. That's oh, that's a half a 492 00:31:40,308 --> 00:31:43,600 percent. Well, that's good. 493 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:44,500 That's money. Good. 494 00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:48,500 Well spent so if you haven't, if you take a short-term solution 495 00:31:48,500 --> 00:31:53,100 to a long-term problem, you're continually spending and you 496 00:31:53,108 --> 00:31:56,900 know, you can lease a car for a day and not worry about paying 497 00:31:56,900 --> 00:31:59,600 long-term insurance cost, but then you still got at least at 498 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,400 the next day. So sometimes it's better to own 499 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,700 rather than lease and it seems almost like we're leasing our 500 00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:10,000 environment rather than trading long-term solutions to these 501 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,900 problems. Okay. 502 00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:14,400 Yeah, certainly feels. That way, sometimes, it feels 503 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,800 more like a payday loan kind of scenario. 504 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,400 Well, I did what I had asked, maybe, maybe it's good to 505 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,700 clarify because I'm not sure someone listening. 506 00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:29,300 My fully gracht, your intention or are you saying that things 507 00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:33,500 like solar radiation management are a form of leasing our 508 00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:38,500 environment and are therefore bad or do you find that in Iron 509 00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:41,700 fertilization to be risky climate Actions that we 510 00:32:41,700 --> 00:32:45,200 shouldn't pursue or you in a research phase, how do you feel 511 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:46,900 about that should make sure it's clear. 512 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:51,800 My opinion, is that nature has certainly figured out how it 513 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,100 interacts with itself for, you know, life on Earth is 514 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,300 generically three and a half billion years old and it's 515 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,000 always changing. And it's got this Dynamic that 516 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,400 comes and goes and species arise and then they become extinct. 517 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,700 Things happen all the time. The environment will In you were 518 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:17,100 will prevail however what we're trying to do, you know, very 519 00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:20,300 smart beings. However, our solution seemed 520 00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:23,000 more short-term. So you know, Iron fertilization 521 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,700 is certainly a method, but we need to change our introduction 522 00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:30,800 of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. 523 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,100 That's a first order correction, but they're all sorts of other 524 00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:35,900 things. I mean, we have wonderful 525 00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:40,500 Seashore environments, Coastal regimes with fantastic 526 00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:43,900 opportunities. Duties, for aquaculture for 527 00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:48,500 recreation, for many other things yet, we find short-term 528 00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:51,300 solutions that destroy the environment. 529 00:33:51,300 --> 00:33:56,800 So they destroy the gold. We are eating our own Golden 530 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,300 Goose. So yes, we should try these 531 00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:05,000 things but we should iterate fast enough to realize that what 532 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,600 we are currently doing. Does have long-term 533 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,000 repercussions, and those long-term repercussions. 534 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:15,300 Russians are in the multi decades not in just for your 535 00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:17,900 election Cycles or two-year election Cycles. 536 00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:21,900 What are some good Trends happening? 537 00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:25,500 That people might not be aware of with regard to the 538 00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:28,199 hydrological cycle. Oceans lakes, what are some 539 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:29,800 things that we might not be aware of? 540 00:34:30,500 --> 00:34:37,100 Well you mentioned about fertilization efforts and kelp 541 00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:40,699 kelp is a very nutritious entity. 542 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:46,100 It's it's the Asian cultures utilize kelp all the time. 543 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:55,300 So dealing with how we produce things that we consume and how 544 00:34:55,300 --> 00:35:00,700 we treat our Watershed not polluting it, you know, fracking 545 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:07,200 introduces, millions of tons of very toxic stuff unfit for 546 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:13,100 humans into the aquifers so having Coastal. 547 00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:15,200 So I look at it more from a coastal management. 548 00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:22,800 Having Coastal efforts to maintain the health of the 549 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:28,800 sediment loads, the health of the quality of the water, those 550 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:34,300 things will pay back in time. You'll have more lobsters in the 551 00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:37,200 coastal regions, more crabs, more fish. 552 00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:41,900 But if you kill off the good things going into the The into 553 00:35:41,900 --> 00:35:45,300 the coastal zone, you'll end up with a Mississippi River, delta 554 00:35:45,300 --> 00:35:48,300 with dead zone. So the good things that we can 555 00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:54,900 do is change it so that we don't do those things Upstream, you 556 00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:56,400 know, one might ask, you know, what town? 557 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,600 Do you live in? Oh, I live in Houston or I live 558 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,900 in Miami. It's really not which town you 559 00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:04,800 live. It's what watersheds you live 560 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,200 in. When you start looking at a, you 561 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,700 live in a watershed since the hydrological cycle. 562 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,600 Saul the sooner we realize that we're all connected within the 563 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,600 hydrological cycle, the better we can treat our environment and 564 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:24,000 our environment will treat us. Well, it's a big look, you know, 565 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,500 from high altitude on a low level. 566 00:36:27,100 --> 00:36:30,300 What we can do is what happens Upstream of fix everybody 567 00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:34,000 Downstream. Do things that have eat things 568 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,900 that produce fewer agricultural, wastes, don't support, 569 00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:43,600 groundwater extractions, Rather than for absolutely necessary 570 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,500 things hydraulic fracking. As I mentioned earlier, puts all 571 00:36:47,500 --> 00:36:51,200 sorts of stuff into the aquifers and unfit for human consumption. 572 00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:56,100 Don't try and decrease fossil fueled dependencies reduce CO2 573 00:36:56,100 --> 00:37:00,000 emissions. And you know, these and our 574 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,000 nature will reward us. You know, we live in a very 575 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:08,100 fruitful Planet, if we disregard, what's Downstream 576 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,100 eventually, everything is polluted and And unfortunately, 577 00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:16,200 regardless where you live, we all live Downstream of climate 578 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,200 change. Can I have a few questions from 579 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:26,100 our patrons on patreon and these are listener submitted and if 580 00:37:26,100 --> 00:37:28,900 you're less than and you'd like to do this, you can join no 581 00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:33,600 worries patreon where we do a book club, it's a lot of fun and 582 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,500 occasionally questions will come out ahead of time that I'll 583 00:37:36,508 --> 00:37:39,900 write down. And yeah, so okay the first 584 00:37:39,900 --> 00:37:44,100 question here, a little bit door but I'm hoping you can give us a 585 00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:48,600 positive answer which is about my Microplastics what is 586 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,100 happening with them? And how can we get them out of 587 00:37:51,107 --> 00:37:54,900 the ocean? A microplastics is a global 588 00:37:54,900 --> 00:38:00,600 problem as we we'll know and as before you know, stream be 589 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,800 careful what you do. Try not to utilize things that 590 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:10,500 are in plastic packages and the weights and beaches has about 591 00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:15,200 150 references of all sorts. And some of those refer to 592 00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:19,700 Plastics and microplastics Six, there are some International 593 00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:23,800 efforts, I think one of them out of the Netherlands where there 594 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:30,500 are large vessels in booms, if you will that collect from the 595 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,000 oceans garbage, patches. This large gyres of floating 596 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:44,300 Plastics and debris and we need to reduce our dependency on the 597 00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:48,500 hydrocarbon /. Plastic production because 598 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,200 remember that Plastics are made primarily from hydrocarbons and 599 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,300 the sooner we can wean ourselves off of that cycle. 600 00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:04,200 The more reduction will be in the plastic detritus and that's 601 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:09,600 a big cycle that people need to look at once again, in the end 602 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,500 notes and references for raising beaches, there's all sorts of 603 00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:16,500 stuff referring to that's Well, thank you. 604 00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:18,000 I'm sure they'll appreciate that. 605 00:39:18,100 --> 00:39:23,100 And we have a second one that I like, it made me laugh. 606 00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:24,800 Here goes, I'm going to read her words. 607 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,600 She says lately, my two-year-old daughter has been asking to see 608 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,900 quote, mommy whales and baby wails unquote. 609 00:39:31,900 --> 00:39:35,800 So I'll search on Instagram and there's some footage shot by 610 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,600 drones and even on a little phone screen, it gives both she 611 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,900 and I such a sense of awe at these gorgeous beings, as much 612 00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:45,000 as I would love to see them in real life. 613 00:39:45,100 --> 00:39:47,700 I don't want to be Person in their habitat but do video 614 00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:51,300 drones bother Wildlife a lot. What do oceanographers say about 615 00:39:51,300 --> 00:39:53,400 that? So speak for the oceanographers 616 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,900 Kim. Okay I've got my oceanographer 617 00:39:55,900 --> 00:40:00,600 had on here groans. Do not substantially influence. 618 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,700 Any behavior of any whale in the ocean? 619 00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:07,600 What does influence them? Is shipping. 620 00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:13,400 Shipping noise has increased over 100 fold in the last 50 621 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,300 years. So You know container ships, 622 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,300 their propellers turn they go around, they make a lot of 623 00:40:20,300 --> 00:40:25,000 noise, those certainly disrupt the feeding patterns in 624 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:30,500 migratory patterns of Wales. So little drones and small boats 625 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:35,100 aren't going to harm a whale in its normal behavior. 626 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:41,600 In many cases, whale swim up to boats to smaller boats but large 627 00:40:42,100 --> 00:40:44,400 fifty thousand. Ton hundred thousand ton 628 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,500 freighters. Container cargo ships. 629 00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:54,600 Those discharge lot of energy, so sound into the ocean and 630 00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:58,700 whale navigate and communicate using sound. 631 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,200 So it's as if you've got a jet plane going by, you know, every 632 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,900 two minutes, it disrupts your conversational patterns and it 633 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,300 eventually just move on to another room. 634 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,900 So don't worry about the drones. Enjoy it there. 635 00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:16,000 Wonderful. Animals. 636 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:17,500 I've been lucky to swim with whale. 637 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,900 I've been very close to well many, many times in and out of 638 00:41:21,900 --> 00:41:26,800 the water and their magnificent animals to observe close and 639 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,500 afar. All right, it says she and her 640 00:41:29,500 --> 00:41:32,300 daughter have your blessing to enjoy those YouTube videos. 641 00:41:32,700 --> 00:41:35,000 Oh, absolutely. Just as long as you're not film 642 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,100 from a hundred thousand ton container vessels, all right, 643 00:41:39,300 --> 00:41:41,200 that's good. Good for them then. 644 00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:45,900 Well, if people want to learn more, where can they get your 645 00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:48,700 book, how can they support it? What can they do? 646 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,200 The Third Edition of waves, and beaches is being published by 647 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,600 Patagonia? You can find it at Patagonia.com 648 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:01,000 and you can also find The book, waves, and beaches Amazon, and 649 00:42:01,100 --> 00:42:04,400 wherever books are sold. I really suggest if you're 650 00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:08,900 interested in going a little bit deeper, you can look at the 651 00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:12,900 references in waves and beaches that refers to not only two 652 00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:17,800 books and peer-reviewed papers, but also to Coastal management 653 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,600 plans. Things that people have already 654 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,400 done. So cities and countries. 655 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,000 They've already implemented Coastal management plans. 656 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,500 There's about 10 or 15 of those plans in the references in the 657 00:42:32,500 --> 00:42:34,200 appendices of waves and Beach is. 658 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,900 So if you want to dig deeper, there's plenty of stuff in waves 659 00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:44,700 and beaches for every level of reader, the over 150 photographs 660 00:42:44,900 --> 00:42:49,400 are heavily annotated, and captioned. 661 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:55,800 So that you don't have to dive into the intricacies of wave, 662 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,800 Celerity in order to enjoy the book. 663 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,300 It's Everyone can enjoy great links to all of those things are 664 00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:04,900 in the show notes. Thanks so much for being here. 665 00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:07,900 Kim, great, and thank you for having me, Ross. 666 00:43:08,700 --> 00:43:11,700 It's been my pleasure and if you like the show, please tell a 667 00:43:11,707 --> 00:43:15,300 friend rate and review us on Apple podcasts or iTunes. 668 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,100 Helps us. Get the show out to more people 669 00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:21,000 than thank you so much for all of your support and for 670 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:27,400 listening. But thank you so much for 671 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,100 listening if You like the show, please rate and review it in 672 00:43:30,100 --> 00:43:33,500 apple podcast and or Stitcher. It really helps us a lot to get 673 00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:35,200 this content to a wider audience. 674 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,800 If you think what we're doing is useful, interesting fun. 675 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,300 Hopefully, all three, we certainly appreciate your rating 676 00:43:40,300 --> 00:43:42,400 and review. You can keep up with Nori at nor 677 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,600 e.com where there is a newsletter that's Nori 678 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,600 .com/srobiyt. There's podcast, there's a whole 679 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,300 bunch else or you can send us an email at podcast at nor e.com. 680 00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:55,400 We are also now on patreon at patreon.com slash Nori podcasts, 681 00:43:55,500 --> 00:43:58,000 if you'd like more content engagement and community. 682 00:43:58,300 --> 00:44:00,100 And thank you so much for your support.