1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,720 Thanks so much for tuning in to Reversing Climate Change. 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,040 I'm the host, Ross Kenyon of two sponsors right now, Rainbow and 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,440 Philip Lee LLP. If you give me a couple minutes, 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,080 I'll tell you about why they are very relevant to your interests, 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,840 so listen up. If you follow me on Sub Stack or 6 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,000 LinkedIn, you've probably seen me write for Rainbow recently. 7 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,640 They have a very idiosyncratic approach to how science is 8 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,440 commercialized and how engineering works within carbon 9 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,280 removal. And I really like working with 10 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:28,400 them. I've learned a lot from the 11 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,480 people there. They're very smart, thoughtful 12 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,520 people and they're aiming to be the most developer centric 13 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,760 registry out there. What's cool about Rainbow is how 14 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,480 seriously they take field engineering experience. 15 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:41,280 They aren't. They're just to write a bunch of 16 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,920 detached rules about how things should work in the abstract and 17 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,760 then let project developers figure it out, know they are 18 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,160 very serious about field engineering, about how 19 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:54,680 operations actually work in the real world, and they take a 20 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,360 rigorous yet philosophical approach. 21 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,160 I'll link to those articles in the show notes in the sponsors 22 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:02,160 section. You should check them out 23 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,560 because it will give you a very good idea of why I think Rainbow 24 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,240 is a very cool company and one that you should consider doing 25 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,520 business with. If you are a project developer 26 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,400 and you're thinking about which registry to use for your next 27 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,040 project, you should absolutely take a meeting with Rainbow and 28 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,800 see if there's a fit there. One thing to keep in mind that 29 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,080 is often very important to the project developers that I've 30 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,720 interviewed as a result of my work with Rainbow doing customer 31 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,000 discovery work. You're just trying to wrap my 32 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,880 head around the opportunities that they're seeing is how fast 33 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,120 their certification process is. They typically quote around 3 34 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,080 months to issue carbon credits, which is very short. 35 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,080 It goes by lickety split for registries. 36 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:42,600 So if you're a project developer, you're looking for a 37 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,240 registry to use to certify and issue your carbon credits. 38 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,240 Take a look at rainbow links in the show notes. 39 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,040 Thanks so much for listening. I'd also love to tell you about 40 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,840 Philip Lee. LLPI really like doing shows 41 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:56,440 about the law. I think the law is such a 42 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,160 fascinating part of our shared social life. 43 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,240 It structures so much of it. It's badly understood by most 44 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,560 people. And just structuring deals 45 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:11,000 within carbon removal is hard. I'm talking grown up deals here, 46 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,400 like when you're trying to put together an enormous package 47 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,240 complicated structuring a lot of money, changing hands. 48 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,400 The stakes are high. You really do need a good 49 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,040 lawyer. I'm sorry to tell you that if 50 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,960 you are a startup out there in carbon removal, you're going to 51 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,640 probably pay a fair amount of money to lawyers. 52 00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:31,280 There's just no way around it. Your choice is basically do you 53 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,680 get a bad lawyer or a good lawyer. 54 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,480 One really cool thing I can say on Philip Lee LL PS behalf. 55 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,880 Well, one, Ryan Covington and I did a very fun show about how 56 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,640 basically no one except for an elite few really know what 57 00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:48,840 bankability and project finance even mean. 58 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,800 And he lays it out very clearly. If you'd like to go listen to 59 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,040 that show, it's awesome and it's LinkedIn, the show notes. 60 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,040 And also we end up talking about Ernest Hemingway of Vermont too. 61 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,360 So it keeps with the tradition of reversing climate change. 62 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,920 One also really cool thing is that they just won Environmental 63 00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:07,040 Finances, VCM Law Firm of the Year. 64 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,880 They put it three years in a row, 2023-2024 and 2025. 65 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,400 It's the only award for legal teams operating in the DCM, and 66 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,920 they have offices in the US, Europe, and the UK. 67 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,480 You should check out Philip Lee LLP. 68 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:22,600 Thank you from the bottom of my heart for listening to this, and 69 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,400 thank you to our sponsors. You really make this so that 70 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,760 it's something that in a busy life with lots of competing 71 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,520 priorities, I'm able to keep coming back and making more. 72 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,240 Reversing climate change. Thanks so much for what you do. 73 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:45,240 And now here is the show. Hey, thank you so much for 74 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:46,960 listening to Reversing Climate Change. 75 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,120 I'm Ross Kenny and I'm the host of the show. 76 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,760 I'm a long time carbon removal entrepreneur. 77 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,400 I'm going to do a quick introduction to the show today. 78 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,040 Get you right to the show. I don't think we need a long one 79 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,520 because we explain what we're talking about in pretty decent 80 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,280 detail here. Today's show is a nice 81 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,240 introduction to regenerative economics. 82 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,640 My guest is Eugene Kerbachev. Eugene started to work on 83 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,600 climate. It is one of the main online 84 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,680 communities for people who are looking to leave their jobs 85 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,519 outside of climate and find a way in, and it's in the middle 86 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,600 of a of a big change right now. Eugene had a post on LinkedIn 87 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,240 that caught my attention and we had to do a show. 88 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:27,640 I think this is a great place to start if you'd like to learn a 89 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,760 little bit about regenerative economics, what all that means? 90 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,000 Is that possible? I detail some of the common 91 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,520 criticisms that I hear. I would like to see a world that 92 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,040 felt more regenerative. I would like to see a world that 93 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,920 felt more cooperative. I would like to see a lot of the 94 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,760 arms race dynamics that we and what has become a running joke 95 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,760 on the show of the non rival Risk game theoretic 96 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,600 environments. Which I can't believe I didn't 97 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,320 say this on the show because I'm pretty sure I got that from 98 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,600 Daniel Schmuckenberger years and years ago. 99 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:01,000 And Eugene is on the show talking about how much Daniel 100 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,680 Schmuckenberger has influenced him. 101 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,800 In any case, I'll just let you get into it. 102 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,800 And since I have you here, before I start the show, can you 103 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,960 please open up your podcast app really quickly? 104 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,680 Give the show 5 stars on Spotify or an Apple podcast if you're 105 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,360 also on Apple Podcast. A quick review would also be 106 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,240 great. Something as simple as I really 107 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,520 love this show that would be much appreciated. 108 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,720 There's also an option to give $5 a month and become a paid 109 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,720 subscriber and gets rid of all the ads that I don't read 110 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,240 myself. And I think that's enough for 111 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,480 now. Here's the show with Eugene. 112 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,520 Thanks for being here, Eugene. Thanks for having me, Ross. 113 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,400 I really liked your post talking about some of the emotional 114 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,320 content of working on climate, watching the world move away 115 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,640 from climate, and what it might take for us to collectively 116 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,200 figure out what the hell we're all doing here. 117 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,400 And I've been grappling with similar things. 118 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,680 Friend of the show Dave Addison sent me your post and was like 119 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,520 you should have Eugene on. I take Dave's recommendations 120 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,640 pretty seriously. Lo and behold, we are here. 121 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,440 So I'm hoping for some spiritual coaching right now. 122 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,520 Eugene, can you lay out kind of your your theory of what's 123 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,600 happening and what is giving you hope to continue working in 124 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,640 climate at this moment? Yeah, Dave is a friend as well. 125 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,840 I have a lot of respect to him and I know I imagine that he 126 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:24,600 would resonate with what that boss says. 127 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,120 Yeah, funny that you say spiritual coaching because I 128 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,640 think that the biggest unlock for me and being able to make 129 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,120 sense of what is going on has been meditation. 130 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:39,240 So I went on a 10 day silently passing the meditation course. 131 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,400 It's one of those pretty hardcore ones where you can't 132 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,080 like, really, you can't write, you can't talk to anyone or 133 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,760 communicate in any way. Like, really, I was going there 134 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,080 because I felt that I'm burning out and I thought, you know, let 135 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,880 me know, relax and recharge and reset. 136 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,280 And it turned out to be a completely different thing. 137 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,440 Like the difference between data or system meditation most people 138 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,040 think about is like the difference between chamomile tea 139 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,080 and an acid trip. Sorry. 140 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,120 It was like, it's really a boot camp for nervous system is what 141 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:12,960 it is. And you come out of it with a 142 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,320 nervous system upgrade. The main gist of the upgrade is 143 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:22,400 that you develop a much, much higher tolerance for 144 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,120 uncomfortable feelings and emotions. 145 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:30,360 For example, where previously, like my ability to think would 146 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,680 stop somewhere in the territory of, Oh my God, we're all going 147 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,280 to die, now I can think, you know, and what, then what after 148 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:42,480 that or like, and So what? It also is useful in many other 149 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,120 contexts just for making better decisions at work, for better 150 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:46,840 regulating myself in life and so on. 151 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,400 But it was definitely the unlock that enabled me to confront what 152 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,880 we're actually dealing with in terms of our public crisis and 153 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,840 the breakdown of all the systems that our civilization depends 154 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,920 on. So, Ross, sounds like you want 155 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,880 to say something. It sounds like one of the core 156 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,760 lessons that you had here was that second part of and and So 157 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:10,680 what? And then what that kind of 158 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,560 response to uncomfortable feelings. 159 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,720 It wasn't just a a dwelling and it was just a a piece of things 160 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,360 are going to happen in a way that are unexpected and just 161 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,480 noting them and let letting them pass on. 162 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,760 Is is the common advice for meditating having intrusive 163 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,400 catastrophic thinking or even just any thinking at all? 164 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,360 Is it kind of like that or am I misunderstanding? 165 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,200 Kind of. So let me try to, I guess, 166 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,799 narrate what actually happened. Yeah, tell me. 167 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,640 What happened next? So about maybe a year and a half 168 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,240 ago, I came across this podcast by Danielle Schmuckenberger. 169 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,320 It was a podcast about the Poly crisis. 170 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,280 Yeah, I think he has a record. I met him at a conference years 171 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,280 ago and ended up hanging out with him for a couple days. 172 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,480 Very interesting guy. Freaked me out as well. 173 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,400 I understand. Yeah, yeah. 174 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,680 So I was listening to the podcast and before that I didn't 175 00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:01,520 know what the Poly crisis was or I thought that this is something 176 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,920 that, you know, particularly weird people think about, but we 177 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:05,880 practical people, we build climate solutions. 178 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,720 That's what I thought. And so he starts talking about 179 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,360 it and says that the Poly crisis is basically the combination of 180 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,360 the crisis we're dealing with, the climate crisis, biodiversity 181 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,400 loss, inequality rising to a level that normally causes civil 182 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,680 wars, breakdown of global collaboration, AI risks, nuclear 183 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:25,160 risks. And The thing is that we're not 184 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,120 nearly on track to solve any one of these things. 185 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,560 And any one of them can end civilization in the current 186 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:32,000 form. And so like, what the hell do 187 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,520 you do? Obviously, we don't have a hope 188 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,720 of addressing all of them one by one if we can't even address one 189 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,760 of them 1 by 1. And so that's the bad news. 190 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,640 The good news, he further goes, is that this is the same crisis, 191 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:49,920 that this is all one crisis of our lack of ability, that 192 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,880 basically a crisis of the fact that our economy and society 193 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,400 lack of the fundamental ability to keep themselves healthy and 194 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,880 they suffer from what's called tragedies of the Commons. 195 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:05,200 Or another name for this is prisoners dilemmas or arms 196 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,480 races. Daniel calls it multi polar 197 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,080 traps. So all of them, all of the 198 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,360 components of the Poly crisis have this to them, like the 199 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,280 pivot of open AI and others from, you know, make the best AI 200 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:25,360 for humanity to make the biggest AI possible in the fastest time 201 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,640 is an an instance of this. The fact that no organization or 202 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,920 no nation wants to be the first one to actually give up fossil 203 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:34,680 fuel. This also an instance of this, 204 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,200 like what if you give up and the other guy doesn't and now you're 205 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,960 the sucker. So all of these crisis look like 206 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,800 that. And so as I was listening to 207 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,640 this, I was like, oh shit, the guy has a point, while 208 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,760 previously I think that the gravity of the point would 209 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,480 probably have prevented me from acknowledging that he's making a 210 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,960 good point. Like I think for many people 211 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,920 when they start thinking about something this bad, they're they 212 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,520 either it goes in one air and while and out the other because 213 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:07,600 it's just too like too tragic to think about, too complex, or 214 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,200 maybe they start actively like denying it. 215 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:14,400 No, you know, technology is totally going to save us like 216 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,120 what you're talking about or like some other form of 217 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,680 deflection. But I think with a certain level 218 00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:24,240 of either self regulation or being used to it, you are able 219 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,800 to say like, yes, this is actually the case. 220 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:33,280 And the implications of this are that there probably will be a 221 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,120 complete collapse before things get better. 222 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,160 So it took me a while to accept that implication. 223 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,280 And so for some time I was just freaking out. 224 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:49,080 And like, I got, I got far enough to accept that the 225 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,320 problem is this big and this complex and that it roots like 226 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,400 this deep. But I didn't know how to make 227 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,560 sense of that yet. So at that point, all I knew is 228 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:01,960 that my organization needs to be doing something different or I 229 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,480 need to be running a different organization because so my 230 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,240 nonprofit work on climate we had, we have a reputation for 231 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,680 helping people find climate jobs and helping people find climate 232 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:14,560 jobs isn't going to do anything about this. 233 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,560 Like you can't really solve this type of problem, this gravity of 234 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:23,000 problem by like getting people into existing job openings. 235 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:27,760 That's just the wrong tool. Like an analogy I like to give 236 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,800 is that like you, you know, you can't make a rabbit fly by 237 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,040 throwing it into the air. It's possible to overcome 238 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,960 gravity, but like you can't overcome gravity by throwing a 239 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,200 rabbit into the air. Maybe if you have helped the 240 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:45,240 rabbit grow wings. Yes, but you're an engineer. 241 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:46,960 Just figure it out, man. Yeah, just yeah. 242 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,640 It can be figured out, but you got to be figuring the right 243 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,720 thing out. You can't just be figuring out 244 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,080 how do I throw the rabbit harder. 245 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:58,080 So what's gonna happen? With work on climate is that is 246 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,160 that changing right now? It's such a huge institution in 247 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,240 in climate tech. It's. 248 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,120 It's definitely changing. So what happened next was I 249 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,120 shared my concerns with my colleagues and my board and 250 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,240 they're like, Oh yeah, it is actually, it is actually quite 251 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,080 bad. And indeed, the concerns that we 252 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,440 can't go far enough by getting people into jobs are very valid. 253 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:26,240 Let's figure it out. So then I think first of all, we 254 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,840 realize that if we're, if we want to create systemic change, 255 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,480 and it was obvious that the only way out of this is systemic 256 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:36,800 change. It's not acceleration of 257 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,680 implementation, it is systemic change. 258 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,480 What I mean by systemic change is changing the dynamics of the 259 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,160 system, like what causes what and what happens as a result, 260 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,400 rather than just specific technologies. 261 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,200 So if we're going to create systemic change, you can't 262 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,480 create it by getting people into jobs, but you can create it by 263 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,080 having people become leaders. So by having people create 264 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,160 change where they are and having people do that in coordination, 265 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,760 If you take any book about how to actually do systemic change 266 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,160 in practice, there are very few such books, but they exist. 267 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,200 Like 1 is called impact Networks, but David Ehrlichman 268 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,920 and other is called systemic something Systems Thinking for 269 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:23,800 Social change by a different David, David Petterstrom and all 270 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,440 of these books. To like where people always say 271 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,680 to start with to the thinking and systems. 272 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,680 You read that? You yeah, thinking in systems is 273 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,720 a great start for understanding that systemic change is needed 274 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,080 and like what it actually is and what are systems. 275 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,520 Yeah. So all of those books say that 276 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,600 if you want to create systemic change, you need to like get 277 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,520 some people together who care about the issue you're looking 278 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,520 at and identify what are some high leverage points where you 279 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,640 can push and then start pushing and keep pushing. 280 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,400 So push at all leverage points at the same time. 281 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,040 So that's that's requires leadership rather than getting 282 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,800 people into jobs. So that prompted the reframe of 283 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,160 organ climate from helping people find climate jobs to 284 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,200 helping people develop into climate leaders. 285 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,600 And then once we help people develop into climate leaders, 286 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,120 and I know the kind that change practices at their organization, 287 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,160 get involved in policy making efforts in their sector, you 288 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,000 know, go and start climate tracks at industry conferences 289 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,880 in their sector, convene and mobilize their peers who have 290 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,760 more power to do the things that only their peers are capable of 291 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,960 and so on. So that's leadership now. 292 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,760 That's what we're now aspired to do. 293 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,000 And then once you do that, you can have people act in 294 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,760 coordination. For example, if you get a bunch 295 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,680 of, let's say that you want to do something about the food 296 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,120 waste problem. So it's one thing if you just 297 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,640 like get this person and that person to change something, 298 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,240 change some practices at their workplace to waste less food. 299 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,200 And it's a completely different matter if you get together a 300 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,400 group of people who, let's say, work at food processors and 301 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,560 growers, packagers, marketers, regulators, distributors and so 302 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,680 on, and have them like align on the shared vision of a zero 303 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:03,160 waste to generate the food system. 304 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,560 And then you help them keep pushing, keep moving their 305 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,240 organizations in the direction and collaborating in ways that 306 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:11,920 would not have been possible individually. 307 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,280 So that's how you can create systemic change. 308 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,840 And so that's the next stage for work on climate is having people 309 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,680 engage in coordinated action, but I digress. 310 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,040 So that was 1 reframe. That was reframe from finding 311 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,640 climate jobs to using your power as a professional, like your 312 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,040 skills, your influence, your understanding of the industry. 313 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,560 The second reframe was when I around the time I came across 314 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:39,800 the concept of regenerative economics. 315 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:47,080 And it was actually very funny. We were finalizing our rewritten 316 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:48,920 mission statement at work on climate. 317 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,120 And then my board, it was talking about solving climate 318 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,920 change still and about like mobilizing professionals to use 319 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,480 their power for it. And then my board chair, Jeremy 320 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,400 says, like, I like it, but like, what about biodiversity? 321 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,800 What about conservation? They seem really interconnected. 322 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,880 And I was, I thought, oh, Jeremy, like always has 323 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:11,800 something to say. But you have a point. 324 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,480 And I thought, I wonder if this is what he's talking about. 325 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,040 I wonder if that is what is called that regenerative 326 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,400 economy. So I looked up the paper about 327 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,800 regenerative economics by John Fullerton and was like, that's 328 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,960 it. That's what I'm going to be 329 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,600 doing for the rest of my life. And like, yes, it is a little 330 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,920 bit woo woo. People who talk about it 331 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,360 sometimes talk in very like in language that practical people 332 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:40,560 don't normally don't talk in. And it seems strange, but the 333 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,920 core of it is so right that I'm going to dedicate the rest of my 334 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,840 life to figure out how to put it into practice and, like, get rid 335 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:49,920 of the woo woo and make it actually work. 336 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,320 So it was a very profound and spiritual experience for me. 337 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:54,160 Yes. Go ahead, dress. 338 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:56,720 Yeah. Yeah, I'm so happy to hear all 339 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,680 of that. I think it's OK to be a little 340 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,600 woo. No, like I've also come from a 341 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,640 very practical background in lots of ways and been like, Oh 342 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,360 no, climate requires everything to be profitable and we can't 343 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:09,560 have any green premiums and all these things that are very hard 344 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,240 nosed to like microeconomic thinking that I I think it's OK. 345 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,480 I think trying to cut all the woo out of this has made it so 346 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,880 that it's basically only people in suits who make press releases 347 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,840 who are able to do anything in climate to some extent. 348 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,400 And I don't think it's going to work to do the system change 349 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,000 necessary that is likely just needed at this point. 350 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,840 I'm sorry to report. We probably need some woo in 351 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,760 there. So I'm giving you permission to 352 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,000 keep some amount of woo. We we need it. 353 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:38,760 Thanks. Ross, I appreciate the 354 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,920 permission. And I think overall, like one of 355 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,000 the principles of regenerative economics is it's called 356 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,040 abundance of the edges. It is recognizing that 357 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,880 innovation and you know, progress and something really 358 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,680 new happens at the intersection between two very different 359 00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:56,920 ecosystems or groups. And I think in this case it 360 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:01,120 means that the the suits need to hang with the woo people and 361 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:02,760 neither of them can do it on their own. 362 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,320 Where did that happen? Are you trying to get this to 363 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,280 happen in the right kind of way? Because they could also drive 364 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,120 each other absolutely nuts. And also both groups of those 365 00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:14,920 people have driven me nuts at various times in my career as 366 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:16,440 well. Sometimes when I'm around the 367 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:17,960 suits, I represent a little more woo. 368 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,000 When I'm with the woo, sometimes I'm a little more suit. 369 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,040 But I feel like too much of that can. 370 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,520 Also, it isn't always a productive friction. 371 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,240 How do you make that a productive friction? 372 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:33,080 Yeah, very good question. So I'm talking both about like 373 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,200 the idea of getting people with different mindsets in the same 374 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,480 room, but also about the idea of outsiders. 375 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,960 So like woo people. So some some of my favorite 376 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,120 people in the regenerative economic space are people who 377 00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:47,160 used to be suits. But John Fullerton, for 378 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,240 instance. John Fullerton. 379 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,360 Yeah, John Fullerton is a great example. 380 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:55,720 Or, you know, Samantha Power, She was, she had a long career 381 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,960 in International Development finance, like doing it the 382 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,040 conventional way at the World Bank. 383 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:01,920 And then I was like, this doesn't work at all. 384 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,240 It doesn't do anything. This is completely the wrong way 385 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,720 to distribute funding and heal communities. 386 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,360 And now she is heading the Bio Fi project and developing 387 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,200 regenerative financial vehicles that can allow money to flow in 388 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,480 a community. Not in a top down way, but like 389 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,480 in the way that nutrients flow in an in an Amazon rainforest or 390 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,360 the way that blood flows in our body and carries nutrients to 391 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:29,680 everywhere they're needed and maintaining the system's health. 392 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:36,280 So a a lot of people like that. Wow, OK, what a beautiful 393 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,040 vision. So fascinating to see work on 394 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,840 climate change. I also, correct me if I'm wrong, 395 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:42,840 work on climate grew out of COVID. 396 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,600 People are at home. They're on their computers a 397 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,720 lot. You know, climate is in a hype 398 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,440 cycle. That's very nice during this 399 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:50,920 time. It's a good time to be working 400 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:52,560 in climate. People want to pivot. 401 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,720 It no longer feels that way basically at all. 402 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,240 I think we're all watching the way the world is changing with 403 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,920 some amount of horror and trepidation about how bad it's 404 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:01,560 likely to get. It doesn't seem like it's going 405 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,240 well. Work on climate is now changing 406 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,840 though, because it came out of that moment no longer fits the 407 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,240 purpose. And also the problem that you 408 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,120 thought you were solving was just too small. 409 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:12,840 It actually needs to be a much bigger mission. 410 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,800 But this is also the problem with holistic thinking too. 411 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,040 The common criticism of systems thinking people is that they 412 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,240 just say everything is contextual and you never 413 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,760 actually have to have a finite point that can be testable. 414 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,960 It's kind of like so holistic that it's not reproducible in 415 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,440 any way. It's very flim flam. 416 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,360 Work on climate could face organizationally a similar kind 417 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,200 of problem Here too. We're trying to tackle the Poly 418 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,640 crisis, and the Poly crisis is nearly everything. 419 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,120 How do you have an organization that's effective that the 420 00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:46,400 mission is literally that big? Yeah, very good question, which 421 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,480 I think goes to the conversation about a world theory of change. 422 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,880 Like how do we get from this economic system to a completely 423 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,640 different economic system? So I think it is useful to 424 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,280 remind ourselves what regenerative economics actually 425 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,600 is, and that's going to give us some clues about how to get 426 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,880 there. So I like framing it in one of 427 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,800 three ways. One way to frame it, which 428 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,520 resonates with particularly hard nosed practical people, is that 429 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,160 it's an economy that doesn't have tragedies of the Commons. 430 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,400 Like everyone can see that we have tragedies of the Commons. 431 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,600 Even the, you know, the biggest, most obtuse technocrat will say 432 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,120 that they exist and they will all say that would be nicer if 433 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:25,240 they didn't. It just so happens that in order 434 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,600 to not have tragedies of the Commons, you need to build a 435 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,880 regenerative economic system, which is completely different. 436 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,320 But anyway, that's the framing. The second framing is that it's 437 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,240 an economy where all activity strengthens the health of the 438 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,920 systems that it depends on. For example, you know, the 439 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,520 business activities of a company strengthen the well-being of the 440 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,480 people that the company needs to to operate. 441 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,960 And the people that the company needs to be its customers 442 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,680 strengthens the natural ecosystems and supply chains 443 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,440 that it needs in order to do it's thing. 444 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,800 And as a government, you know, operates, it strengthens the 445 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,840 health of the nation and so on. So this is a rather vague 446 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,200 framing, but I think it portrays an inspiring vision. 447 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,360 Like imagine if we weren't confined to simply hoping to 448 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:12,560 destroy our foundations a little bit less. 449 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,360 And if instead the economy was actually positive. 450 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:18,920 Like the more the economy does, the healthier everything gets. 451 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,760 Wouldn't that be nice? Yes, I agree that sounds. 452 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,040 That sounds delightful. Yeah, it it really would. 453 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,600 Be nice. But this begs the question like, 454 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,360 how the hell do you do it? Is it even possible? 455 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,560 So the third framing shows that it is possible. 456 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,440 The third framing calls upon us to realize that all the living 457 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,040 systems around us are actually economies, and they have a lot 458 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,160 to teach us about how to do it. So, for example, the cells in my 459 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,000 body exchange resources with each other and exchange signals 460 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,800 with each other. That's an economy, right? 461 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,800 That's an economy. Likewise A rainforest, You know, 462 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,400 the animals and bacteria and plants and so on also exchange 463 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,040 resources and signals with each other. 464 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,040 That's also an economy. And these economies have been 465 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:08,200 extraordinarily successful at persisting for a long time and 466 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,000 getting better over time. Like there are 50 million year 467 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,800 old rainforests out there to my knowledge. 468 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,920 So I, I don't think that even Elon Musk can say that our 469 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,920 civilization will have that kind of track record of health over 470 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:21,800 the long time. Right. 471 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,960 So the, the suggestion here is to be like, hi, I wonder how 472 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,880 they do that? Like, I wonder what are the 473 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,200 principles that allow natural systems to be like that, like 474 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,520 allow them to operate in a way where like everyone's needs are, 475 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,600 you know, met in a way that strengthens the health of the 476 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,360 whole. How do they do that? 477 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,040 And then can we borrow some of those principles and incorporate 478 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,760 them into the way that we run the economy? 479 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:54,040 I want to be very clear that the proposal is not to destroy our 480 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,080 economy and go back to nature. That is a completely different 481 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,160 proposal. The proposal is to observe, 482 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,800 like, I wonder how they do that and is there something we can 483 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,320 learn from that? Is there something we can 484 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,680 transfer into the way that our economy runs so that the 485 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,000 regenerative economy is the idea of borrowing enough of those 486 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,600 principles to make our economy regenerative and make it so that 487 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,440 all the cool stuff that we have here, like all our, you know, AI 488 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,200 and genetic engineering and infrastructure and Internet and 489 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,880 so on. So that all of that stuff 490 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,920 actually causes the economy to make everything healthier over 491 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,280 time. So that's the, that's the idea. 492 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:31,440 Wow. It's. 493 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,880 Interesting to me that people associate regenerative economics 494 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,720 with the sort of back to the land, small is beautiful 495 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,880 aesthetic because I think of bio mimicry, but I also think of 496 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,120 increasing complexity of our social lives that are 497 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:49,400 intertwined, not a reduction of complexity where we're we're 498 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,880 treating the smaller communities. 499 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:54,360 I don't think of regenerative economics as necessarily a, a 500 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,280 going back in time back to the land kind of movement. 501 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,560 Do people often levy that criticism against it because it 502 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,880 sounds like they haven't read it very closely? 503 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,880 If so, that seems like a pork criticism. 504 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,960 Yeah, I think. That indeed, a lot of people 505 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,960 perceive it that way. I think a lot of people perceive 506 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,320 it as something too obstructive and know what the hell it is 507 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,520 about. I think that's a more serious 508 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,400 risk. For the paradigm than anything 509 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:17,640 with a serious. Risk. 510 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,480 Yeah. But this is the vision that that 511 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,560 is alive in my head. And like, I haven't really met a 512 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,720 lot of people who say like, no, that's the wrong vision. 513 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,320 We must go back to the land and like not have anything else. 514 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,160 I think there are some people who say that, but when you talk 515 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,400 to them, you know, actually they're like, oh, it's a broader 516 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,800 vision is nice too. I also think of someone like. 517 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,960 Charles Eisenstein. I imagine you probably like his 518 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,000 work too, right? We don't know him. 519 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:43,320 Oh, you don't? OK, He. 520 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,920 Wrote a book called The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know 521 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,520 as Possible, which is a very Wu name for a book about societal 522 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,440 transformation. But I kind of love it. 523 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,320 Like, it's one of those things where in the same way, in your 524 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,240 own heart, when you were hearing about these ideas about the Poly 525 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,600 crisis, they were overwhelming and you wanted to just reject it 526 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,560 or say, I'm just focused on my own lane and climate. 527 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,120 And then opening yourself up to it really is this big, It really 528 00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:09,280 is this threatening? What do I do about it? 529 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,280 I think even saying the name of that book out loud, my heart, 530 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,240 like, does call out for it. Like, yeah, the world does not 531 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,000 have to be lived at everyone else's expense. 532 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,560 It does not have to be cruel by design. 533 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,640 We do not have to have people dying of preventable illnesses. 534 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,320 We do not need to be at each other's throats fighting over 535 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,440 resources. Like we don't actually have to 536 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,480 be living this way. It's, it's a terrible thing. 537 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,000 And it's, it's scary to say that out loud because it sounds very 538 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,640 naive. But also, we don't have to 539 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,560 behave this way like that. We can change systems and we 540 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,960 don't have to live immiserating one another. 541 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,960 Yeah. My my response to that is, well, 542 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:51,720 first of all, hell yes. Second of all, I so I see myself 543 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,280 as a very cynical and no bullshit person. 544 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,960 I'm like, I'm really allergic to actual woo woo that doesn't have 545 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,600 substance behind it. I'm really allergic to naivete. 546 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,720 I'm allergic to like when I see that somebody is proposing 547 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,360 something that cannot possibly work but it feels good so they 548 00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:10,080 propose it. Or like their paycheck depends 549 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,600 on it so they propose it. Like I hate that shit. 550 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,880 And that is the very reason why I am putting my life to putting 551 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,560 regenerative economics into being because everything else, 552 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,520 it can't, it can't possibly work. 553 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,320 I just can't say with a straight face that a different approach 554 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,200 can work. And this is because this concept 555 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,600 of regenerative economics, it is, it is not like a specific 556 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:33,760 vision. Like here's how you're on the 557 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,720 economy. It is a property that the 558 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,080 economy must have. It is a property that it 559 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,920 increases the health of its systems. 560 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,880 And like if you don't have that property, by definition, you 561 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,120 degrade the health of your system. 562 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,280 So one day they're going to collapse and you don't have an 563 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,040 economy. There is simply no alternative. 564 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,040 So it is kind of obviously the right vision. 565 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,160 The question is, how do you do that? 566 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,480 And like, what does it look like and how do you get there? 567 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,600 Which brings me to go back to our conversation about how do 568 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,480 you get there and what's that got to do with work and climate. 569 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,040 So let's ask ourselves, how did natural systems get here? 570 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,360 There was a time when we didn't have the Amazon rainforest, and 571 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,600 it hasn't been around for 50 million years. 572 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,560 And there was a time when we didn't even have animals. 573 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,800 So all we had was a soup of chemicals. 574 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,920 And then we eventually had the soup of amino acids. 575 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,720 And then we had a soup of like RNA chains. 576 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,560 And then we had the soup of single cells, which turned out 577 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,240 to be very successful because they knew how to self replicate. 578 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:40,160 And so we had bacteria and stuff and then, you know, obviously we 579 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,800 didn't get to the Amazon rainforest by some bacteria out 580 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,400 competing others and like becoming the biggest, baddest 581 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,880 bacteria like the elephant. It's not a really big bacteria. 582 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,760 It's an entirely different category of thing. 583 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,960 So we got from street letters. By the way, I. 584 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,520 Don't think that sense has ever been said before, but OK. 585 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,360 Well, I hope it's vivid enough to to. 586 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,040 Stay in people's minds. So the way it actually happened 587 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,200 was after single celled organisms appeared and then it 588 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,600 turned out that when they collaborate and start forming 589 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,720 multi cell organisms, that's even better. 590 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,720 And when those form animals, that's also even better and form 591 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,000 humans. And now we know humans have 592 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,880 formed our own ecosystem, the economy. 593 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,240 So that's actually has been pretty cool for a while the way 594 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,440 that we have run the economy. So The thing is that this was a 595 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,040 sequence of increasingly complex high level organization into 596 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,200 networks. There was competition, yes, but 597 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,960 the really big like phase changes happened when the level 598 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,760 of organization increased and the same thing. 599 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,920 So our economy is today, today is more like that primordial 600 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,960 super bacteria. And we have a bunch of like 601 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:50,400 neoliberal spokespeople saying that to the next step is bigger 602 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,200 bacteria, but the next step is not bigger bacteria. 603 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,720 The next step is the elephant. So the next step is more high 604 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:02,080 level organization of entities, people and organizations and the 605 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,720 resources and the economy into higher level entities. 606 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,320 And this probably sounds very abstract. 607 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,800 So what I mean by that these things already exist. 608 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,040 Like the C corporation is an example of that organization. 609 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:15,920 The nation state is another example. 610 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,120 They're just not very healthy yet. 611 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,720 They're not nearly as healthy as an elephant or as a natural 612 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,480 ecosystem like the rainforest. But I am talking about things 613 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,680 like forms of ownership, forms of governance, forms of 614 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:31,480 incorporation, forms of collaboration and so on and so 615 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,480 on. So types of financing stacks, 616 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,640 types of legal agreements. So like the glue, the types of 617 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,760 structures that hold the economy together and cause parts to 618 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,080 behave as a larger whole. That's all it is. 619 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,840 And there is many forms of that in the economy, but we need 620 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,280 better forms, better and healthier and higher level 621 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,160 forms. So basically, I think that the 622 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:56,720 path from here to there lies in innovation on that innovation on 623 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,800 technologies is basically like innovation on bigger and better 624 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,360 bacteria. And like it's, it's not bad. 625 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,280 We do need to develop new types of cells. 626 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,320 Like for example, in order to create a human at some point to 627 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,000 the brain cell needed to evolve at some point, like the cells of 628 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,600 my eye needed to evolve. So we there is a role for change 629 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,960 at the level of, you know, cell capabilities, but what's really 630 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,520 needed is change at the level of how the economy is glued 631 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,680 together and wired together. So that means innovation on what 632 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,440 I call either network vehicles or you can call it economic 633 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,240 architecture patterns. So innovation on that. 634 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:38,360 And the connection to work on climate is I see it like this. 635 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,240 I see it as, so we were facing the task of making each sector 636 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,840 of the economy regenerative and it's actually bigger than making 637 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,360 each sector regenerative. But for the sake of the argument 638 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,040 and then I think that as we form networks of professionals who 639 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,400 want to make their sector regenerative, first they act 640 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,840 individually as leaders. Second, they act in coordination 641 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,720 and learn to to create change together at all. 642 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:08,200 And then these networks that we form them, they can become, you 643 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,320 know, the hardware or the substrate for people to do this 644 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,440 kind of innovative ways of organizing together. 645 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,920 So, for example, if you have a network of people in the Bay 646 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,520 Area food system who really want to be regenerative, at some 647 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,240 point this may be the right network on which to build a new 648 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,680 governance body for California's water resources. 649 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,560 Or at some point this may be the right network on which to build, 650 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,160 you know, a really large demand for commitment for regenerative 651 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,920 agriculture or something else of that sort or like a new 652 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,800 ownership model for, you know, farm equipment needed to the 653 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,400 regenerative agriculture and so on. 654 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,560 So this is this is what I'm talking about. 655 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,680 So the path is individual leadership, collective 656 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,320 leadership, and then regenerative collective 657 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,600 leadership. I am on some level talking out 658 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,200 of my behind because we're a few years away from even trying 659 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,040 that. But whenever the efforts I see 660 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,440 that I think are actually making the biggest difference towards 661 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,080 the regenerative economic system today, our efforts that develop 662 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,320 that kind of stuff, it's the likes of the Biofi project, 663 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,280 which is developing those financial vehicles and like 664 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,679 TIPS, transformational investment and food systems. 665 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,960 And like the Bloom Network, which is a community of practice 666 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,440 for communities everywhere that are attempting to implement 667 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,280 regenerative economies where they are and the Terra Nova 668 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,760 Foundation and so on. So they all are developing like 669 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,639 new structures, new forms of ownership, new forms of 670 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:39,960 collaboration, new types of learning communities that kind 671 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,719 of spread the DNA of what works regeneratively in one place to 672 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:48,560 another place and so on, so many different things. 673 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,280 To ask about, one thing I was thinking about, and I was 674 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,159 actually just talking to Dave about this, is that I remember 675 00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:58,160 reading John Stuart Mill years and years ago, and he spends a 676 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,680 fair amount of time in On Liberty talking about 677 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,560 cooperatives. Cooperatives are going to be a 678 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,240 main economic institution of the future. 679 00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:10,240 And as you noted earlier, it's like mostly C corps LLCS and C 680 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,440 corps everywhere. Like why are cooperatives not 681 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,400 more popular? You would think that worker 682 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,320 ownership would be a model that would be beloved by all. 683 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,640 I could see both right and left finding their own reasons for 684 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,080 enjoying such a thing. They're pretty rare though. 685 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,200 Like there are big ones like Mondragon and in Spain is really 686 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,960 big. There's various agricultural 687 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,520 ones, but overall it's like pretty small. 688 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,400 And then even where they do exist, like Seattle where I am, 689 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,520 PCC is a big cooperative grocery chain. 690 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,120 But it. Chronically has issues. 691 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,920 Where it just like does not function as neatly as Kroger or 692 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,040 the conventional corporate approach to Agri business and 693 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,200 food systems, despite people really wanting it to. 694 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,880 It's more expensive and yet it's pretty crowded whenever I get in 695 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,560 there. And so people are there because 696 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,080 they care about it and yet it's chronically in trouble. 697 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,040 Why is it that models like cooperatives cannot just get 698 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,040 ahead? Like what's wrong with them 699 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,840 that's preventing them from being more dominant than more 700 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,000 profit seeking top down types of structures? 701 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,000 I don't know. But I think the the task ahead 702 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,200 of us is to make them better. So it just so happens that 703 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,520 indeed, right now the likes of the traditional C corporation 704 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,760 and like private equity forms and firms and the Exons and the 705 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,920 buyers and Monsantos of the world are currently more 706 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,080 revolutionarily fit. And yes, they're, they're 707 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,000 winning in some sense temporarily. 708 00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:33,720 They're winning in the same sense that the cancer is winning 709 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:37,880 as it takes over the body. So yes, they are, they're 710 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,520 successful at killing the other stuff, but unfortunately they 711 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,280 are not successful at keeping the foundations that they depend 712 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,720 on healthy. So sooner or later they will 713 00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:51,240 collapse. This is simply inevitable, which 714 00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:53,640 I guess brings us back to one of the points we were making 715 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,840 earlier. So I want to make several points 716 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,680 from here. So one point is that I think it 717 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,840 means that as we figure out how do we create new regenerative 718 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,360 structures in the economy, it is incredibly important, like 719 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,440 vitally important that we don't just ask ourselves like, what is 720 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,000 good? Like, how do I run a good 721 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,600 cooperative? But we ask ourselves a different 722 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,440 question. How do I run a good cooperative 723 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,040 that wins in the fight to death with an extractive cooperative? 724 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,680 Because the extractive cooperative, like it's on a 725 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,720 mission to kill you. It's it's on a mission to take 726 00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:29,520 market share. And like, people there are 727 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,960 thinking, how do we kill this corporate if and take its market 728 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:33,120 share? That's literally what they're 729 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,720 thinking. They're maybe phrasing it in 730 00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:37,480 corporate words, but that's what they're thinking and they're 731 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,760 very good at it. And so we must ask this 732 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,920 question, how do we win in a fight to death with the 733 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,680 incumbent system? And we must also ask ourselves 734 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,400 the question, how do we not become what we seek to defeat? 735 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,920 So there are there is no shortage of examples of, for 736 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,480 example, climate start-ups that are then, you know, some kind of 737 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,240 carbon removal start up that then Shell buys it and now use 738 00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:03,800 its its carbon removal to extract more fossil fuels by 739 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,160 injecting carbon into fossil fuel reservoirs, right? 740 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,480 Or maybe some regenerative agriculture start up that gets 741 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,560 an offer that it cannot refuse from Monsanto. 742 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,760 And now it's now it's doing the thing that Monsanto wants it to 743 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,200 do. So we must build structures that 744 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,480 are resistant to corruption and Co option as well. 745 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,480 And these are very hard problems and we haven't solved them, 746 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,000 which is like, which is why, which is why we don't yet have 747 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,480 cooperatives taking over everything. 748 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,240 We simply haven't evolved far enough. 749 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:38,480 But we need to evolve further. Otherwise we're going to we're 750 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,080 going to collapse. And honestly, I think we are 751 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,880 going to collapse. Well, hopefully we're going to 752 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:50,520 collapse once and not ten times. So on that point, back to our 753 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:55,200 conversation about like what gives me hope and when we're 754 00:38:55,200 --> 00:39:01,360 facing all of this collapse. Another thing that I think how I 755 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,720 can increase degree of self regulation and acceptance and 756 00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:10,440 equanimity has helped me accept is that I don't think that there 757 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:15,640 is a way to, I don't think that we will like solve all of these 758 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,960 crises before the big one hits in some sense. 759 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,040 Like I think that something truly catastrophic is going to 760 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,640 happen to the economy, let's say in the next 50 years. 761 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,680 And I think that is going to take a lot longer than that to 762 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,240 develop a full regenerative economy just because of the time 763 00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:37,000 that cycles of change take. Maybe I'm wrong, I would love to 764 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,440 be wrong, but we can't count on that. 765 00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:44,400 So the question is then like, if I believe that, how do I, what 766 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,480 is my hope in and how do I stay grounded? 767 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,320 So like, honestly, this isn't the, the first time in the 768 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,040 history of life or even the in the history of humanity when 769 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,320 something collapsed. Like it's us kind of privileged 770 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,160 white communities who are not used to that. 771 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,280 But lots of Indigenous nations have been almost completely 772 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,680 obliterated. And then, you know, they came 773 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,360 back from that. Maybe that happened many times. 774 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,560 Maybe they're still not in a great state, but like it's 775 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,120 pretty normal. Many species of animals, many 776 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,120 natural ecosystems have been destroyed. 777 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:18,920 And then, you know, life goes on. 778 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,960 So the vision in my head is that, yes, it's going to 779 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,720 collapse and then something healthy will grow from the 780 00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:28,400 ashes. Maybe something unhealthy will 781 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,440 grow and it will collapse again. And then the third thing will 782 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,640 grow. So sooner or later, by 783 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,320 definition, sooner or later we are going to have a regenerative 784 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,560 economy because it's the only thing that's going to be stable. 785 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,320 But I personally would like it, AI would like it to happen 786 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,600 sooner, which we have the power to make it happen sooner because 787 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,840 unlike natural evolution, we don't just have to rely on 788 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,120 selection and things failing. We can direct it intentionally 789 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,600 so we can make it happen sooner, even if I'm not confident that 790 00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,520 we can make it happen before the 1st collapse. 791 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,960 So that's, that's kind of my take on this. 792 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,240 Wow. They're kind of deep time 793 00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:09,160 perspective. It's not quite deep time. 794 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,280 It's somewhere before that, but it's it's not far off is. 795 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,560 Pacifying to me I. Feel calm as a result of 796 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,040 thinking like OK it may not be this current incarnation of 797 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,560 humans, but potentially we reduced to a lower level of 798 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,400 complexity and then learn better of past mistakes and figure it 799 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,280 out. Alternatively, though, we have 800 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:37,520 plenty of of culture that has players in video games that are 801 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,480 in the midst of cultures that once rise and fall, and now 802 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,960 we're in their ruins. We don't really understand why 803 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,480 they passed away. Like The Elder Scrolls mythology 804 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,040 is very much of this ilk. You're like, what happened to 805 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:49,040 the dwarves? I don't know. 806 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:50,640 They were technologically very advanced. 807 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,280 Something really bad happened to them. 808 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,960 We'll figure it out later. I feel like that kind of 809 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,040 mythological message is very present in our culture. 810 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,120 I suspect it would probably continue. 811 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:01,760 It's also like A Canticle for Leibowitz. 812 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,920 Have you ever read that? I have not read. 813 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,360 That one, No. Yeah, very. 814 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,480 Similar to of humans living in the the shell of the former 815 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,880 civilization and also just Western civilization for a long 816 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,080 time was that with Rome, like once Rome was gone, it reduced 817 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,720 to a much lower level of complexity. 818 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,920 And that is something that we are used to doing and things 819 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,440 will get better. Now this is more like what was 820 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,880 that great die off that happened where all humans are descended 821 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,280 from like 100 humans that somehow survived the disaster in 822 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,240 Africa like millions of years ago that we passed through an 823 00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:35,760 evolutionary gate. And it's like this narrow and 824 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,200 like humans almost, it's like we're all descended from not 825 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,680 even that many of like, proto humans. 826 00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:44,040 So whatever, we'll probably figure it out and it will be OK. 827 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,320 And that's relaxing to me. But crap, I'm thinking about a 828 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,680 lot about my own life. And pretty much all you can 829 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,040 control, as far as I can tell, is your own behavior, your own 830 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,000 reactions, how you treat one another. 831 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,040 And I remember talking to Daniel Schmachenberger about this. 832 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,440 We had this like, weird. We were at a castle in France 833 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,120 and for like a couple days and I got to spend a lot of time 834 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,400 hanging out with him. Very obsessed with the 835 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,600 prisoner's dilemma. Very obsessed with what do we do 836 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,000 given that defection is so likely for so many people? 837 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,000 Like it's always easier to cheat and then take the thing for 838 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,880 yourself. We're in an arms race dynamic 839 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,520 too. We're like, OK, if if Sam Altman 840 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,000 decides that AGI is not really the thing that they care about 841 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,080 anymore, there's probably 20 other organizations that are 842 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,320 racing for AGI. Like someone is going to do it. 843 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,640 So like, then what? Then what do we do? 844 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,080 Like with with Daniel, the only thing that I could kind of come 845 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:39,600 to was a sort of thorough going Christian, pacifistic, turn the 846 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,520 other cheek. Like we need people who are 847 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,280 spiritually evolved enough to be thoroughly nonviolent, 848 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,200 thoroughly humane, and to be that even at great personal 849 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,600 cost. Because we need to change that 850 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,000 prisoner's dilemma dynamic and try to find ways to do that. 851 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:56,840 And I can't remember if he liked that idea. 852 00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,320 I suspect he probably thought that we needed something that 853 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,000 had a tighter like logic to it, a tighter economic logic to make 854 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,320 sure it wasn't just dependent upon great spiritual strength. 855 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,080 And it sounds like maybe you're heading in that direction too, 856 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:10,720 where this is not really a spiritual thing for you. 857 00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:13,880 This meditation, there's a spiritual component to it, but 858 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,480 it shouldn't require self sacrifice to the extent that I'm 859 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,240 describing in order to pull this off. 860 00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:19,760 Or we didn't, we didn't figure it out. 861 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,800 Is that correct? Yeah, That's that's. 862 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,640 Correct. So I think one of the indeed, 863 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,080 one of the philosophies that some people hold about how we're 864 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,360 going to get there is like, you ask people like, what is a 865 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,920 plausible path to getting there? And then they answer a different 866 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,400 question is what they would like to happen in order for that to 867 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,800 happen. And they say like, oh, mass 868 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,920 scale cultural transformation is needed. 869 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,120 Like, yes, it's either, but it's not plausible. 870 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,400 So I'm sorry, you're not answering the question. 871 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,800 It's because honestly, most people don't have an answer to 872 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,040 that question. And that's OK. 873 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,520 Like, I have an answer that I think that is credible enough to 874 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,640 me, but it is also not without major gaps. 875 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,800 I think that like culture and economy and policy are mutually 876 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,520 shaping. So none of them is primary the 877 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,200 thing that this primary structure. 878 00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:09,040 So there is an insight by Donnella Meadows that I really 879 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,720 like, which says that the behavior of a complex system is 880 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,280 determined not by its parts, but by how they're connected to each 881 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,240 other. So that is a very crucial 882 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:22,240 insight. It means really that the thing 883 00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:24,680 that matters is the topology of the system rather than its 884 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,120 technology, so to speak. And what that means in terms of 885 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,640 a path to a regenerative economy, again, I think it 886 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,960 mirrors the path that life took where we we need to develop new 887 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,440 forms of healthy organization, healthy organizations and 888 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,760 collaborations, ownership, financing, tax and so on that, 889 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:43,680 you know, start small. But they're so good at 890 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,160 replicating and so good at fighting and staying alive that 891 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:51,080 they basically eat the current systems from within and 892 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,200 successfully survive and not compete them. 893 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,400 Either they actually kill them or maybe the current systems 894 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,360 kill themselves and these things don't die. 895 00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:02,400 Or maybe they, you know, enter a symbiosis with current systems 896 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:03,720 through which they are transformed. 897 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,760 I don't know exactly what form that may look like. 898 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:12,200 Like, I suppose I don't know, imagine AI for the sake of the 899 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,400 argument, the AI ecosystem. So I don't think that we're 900 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:21,800 going to address AI risks by a yelling harder at Sam Altman and 901 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,360 I don't think that we're going to address it by having like 902 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,040 some new ethical AI start up. I would compete open AI either. 903 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,800 But I think what my assistant says instead happened is perhaps 904 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:36,200 some kind of no new grassroots open source infrastructure for, 905 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:40,480 you know, managing data that AI is used to train as appears some 906 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,800 kind of collective form of ownership and governance of 907 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,800 that. And for some reason, you know, 908 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,840 for some reasons, maybe similar to the way the reasons why the 909 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,560 open source movement succeeded, it turns out to be so 910 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,160 successful, but basically open eye either has to comply with it 911 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,080 and follow its rules or it gets cut off from a really important 912 00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:58,760 market share, something like that. 913 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,600 So that would be an example of a system growing in power from the 914 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,200 bottom up and forcing an existing system to transform. 915 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,200 And, you know, some systems will rather die than transform, and 916 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,320 that's OK, you know, they die, good riddance. 917 00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:13,760 But maybe not. The point is that the healthy 918 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,720 thing grows big. OK, is the point then that some 919 00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:19,560 of these? Cultural or spiritual changes, 920 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,760 like the example that I gave, are they not relevant? 921 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,360 Or that they're so entwined with politics and other things that 922 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,880 it's possible that they do have some impact? 923 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,280 Or maybe that they encourage some people to make structural 924 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,520 changes about the kinds of companies or organizations that 925 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,400 they start, Something like that. Or is it just a waste of time to 926 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,280 even think about spiritual matters? 927 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,800 No, it's not a waste of time to think about it. 928 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:45,800 But I basically, I believe that people's spiritual inclinations 929 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:51,640 are shaped not so much by like somebody trying to teach them a 930 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,920 different spiritual inclination. And they're more shaped to a 931 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:56,960 larger extent by the systems that they're part of. 932 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,720 Like for example, if you are a big company executives, you're 933 00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:05,600 shaped every day by talking to your board and to your investors 934 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,600 and to your employees who want your stock to grow, otherwise 935 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,880 they're not worthwhile shrink and so on and so on. 936 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,720 So you're shaped by those systems every day and by 937 00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:18,680 watching your peers who behave a certain way succeed and your 938 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,480 peers who behave a certain other way fail. 939 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:26,360 So the economy is shaping our spiritual faculties, and 940 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,520 likewise our spiritual faculties are also shaping the economy. 941 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,600 And our economy is shaping policy by virtue of the 942 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,080 successful place in the economy buying politicians. 943 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,560 And it happens the other way around as well. 944 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:40,880 So these things are interconnected. 945 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,880 None of them is primary. Any of them is like a 946 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,400 sufficiently useful lever. But I think structure is an even 947 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,640 more useful lever. But I think, you know, The thing 948 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,240 is that like, as we think about this, we should make sure that 949 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,880 our work is not erased by the forces of the system. 950 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:02,480 For example, let's say that you, you know, do some kind of 951 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,600 spiritual transformation work with a cohort of Business School 952 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,160 students, and then they go to McKinsey because that's where 953 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,880 the jobs are. And not much is going to be left 954 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:13,480 of your spiritual transformation work. 955 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,840 By the time they're done, like you, you will be lucky if 956 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:19,720 something is left. And maybe it's not completely 957 00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:21,920 worthless, but a lot of it will be erased. 958 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,640 And that's because they will be taught to operate in a certain 959 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:26,920 model. And every day they will be 960 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,840 changed in the direction that's opposite from what you taught 961 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,040 them. So we we should be conscious of 962 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:36,480 the limits of education. I think the cultural pressures 963 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,200 of 1's. Work discipline are hard to 964 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,080 overstate. They're invisible to most of us 965 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,480 because they just make up the cultural environment in which 966 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,440 you operate on a daily basis. But what was that statement I 967 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,200 said earlier about the the more beautiful world we know in our 968 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,000 hearts as possible or whatever you said. 969 00:49:53,240 --> 00:49:55,240 If you said that kind of McKenzie, I think they would be 970 00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:59,120 like you. You are not a cool person 971 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:00,680 anymore, like you were in trouble. 972 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,040 You are not reliable. You are not a serious person. 973 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,160 Like just try saying something that is about the Poly crisis in 974 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,280 a meeting where you're like I'm glad your organization was 975 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,440 tolerant of it, but I can also imagine your board member saying 976 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,720 that in some groups just like stay in our lane, like we only 977 00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:20,960 need to do one thing and like why even bring this up? 978 00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,400 We can't even solve one problem. Well now we have to solve 3 979 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,400 problems simultaneously. Like some of that stuff just 980 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,760 looks inherently less serious to organizations that are more 981 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,720 conventional. So the amount of cultural 982 00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:34,760 pressure there is to conform to what is deemed to be practical 983 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,720 even in like sustainable ESG oriented fields. 984 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:42,240 I put out a show recently about what it's like trying to sell to 985 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,720 a mid of companies and having to potentially celebrate their 986 00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:48,640 achievements in public even when they're relatively small and do 987 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,000 not account for all of their emissions and they are still 988 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,360 continuing to do not so nice things. 989 00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,120 But you kind of have to clap for them all the same. 990 00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:58,960 Be like, thank you so much X company for your great 991 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,720 leadership on on carbon removal. Or you're like, but privately 992 00:51:02,720 --> 00:51:04,560 people are like, those companies sucks. 993 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,360 Like we would be better off if this company didn't exist at 994 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,080 all. But you have to say it. 995 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,960 You got to see the thing. Yeah, both can be true. 996 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,800 Like maybe we would be. Happier if this company didn't 997 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,520 exist at all, but it's also good that they made some progress 998 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,880 here. Like, I don't know, no humans 999 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,240 are perfect either. And I think that I, I don't 1000 00:51:23,240 --> 00:51:25,640 really know how to say this without sounding like a walking 1001 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:30,280 cliche, but I think that this, this does hold water. 1002 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,520 So as long as they're being, you know, authentic, you know, why 1003 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,560 not? Why not applaud them if they're 1004 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:38,680 doing it for the right reason rather than for the reason of 1005 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:42,160 just green washing, which it's really hard to know though. 1006 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,440 Yeah, I'm sure the people who who work in those. 1007 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:46,760 Departments are there. For the right reasons and and 1008 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,400 care about it. But I think the company overall 1009 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,040 is like they've determined that this prepares them for a pre 1010 00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,800 compliance moment that they're going to be ahead of their 1011 00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,080 competition because they already have all the connections through 1012 00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,360 all of the relevant companies that will develop projects for 1013 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:00,720 them. It's like there's always a 1014 00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,560 practical logic to these decisions. 1015 00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,880 It's never just let's give away our money because it would be 1016 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:07,960 super nice to do. It's like, oh, this would help 1017 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,320 us with brand equity. Yeah, though I want to bring up 1018 00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:15,840 something. Else I recently read this like 1019 00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:20,600 long philosophical essay about the philosophy of the likes of 1020 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:25,680 Peter Thiel and Elon Musk and GD Vance and courtesy Irvin and so 1021 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:31,920 on, and the striking thing to me was this so I. 1022 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,160 Am used to. Thinking of these people as 1023 00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,160 simply corrupt and arrogant like that. 1024 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,680 They simply want more money and that's why they're in more power 1025 00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:42,280 and that's why they're acting the way they do. 1026 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:45,360 I'm not. An expert in their. 1027 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,520 Psychology, I'm just conveying like what I get the sense might 1028 00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:50,880 actually be the case potentially based on reading that. 1029 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,760 So it seems like it might be that they're pursuing, like 1030 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,000 honestly pursuing a vision of a better world rooted in a 1031 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,720 different understanding of what a better world is, just because 1032 00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:07,040 they spent their whole life building machines and companies 1033 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,240 that make machines and function like machines. 1034 00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:11,800 They think that the better world is a machine. 1035 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:16,360 And that brings them to philosophy of this guy Curtis 1036 00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:21,240 Yarwin that basically everything is a corporate state managed by 1037 00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:23,560 ACEO. But there are some interesting 1038 00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,640 parallels there. Like there are some things that 1039 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,920 I don't disagree with. So for example, even apparently 1040 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,480 the philosophy of this guy Curtis Yarwin is like he 1041 00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,760 proposes to have a large network of interconnected sovereign 1042 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,280 corporate states. Like I'm on board with the 1043 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,520 interconnected sovereign part and what's not on board with the 1044 00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,280 part about corporate states? And like the reason that he is 1045 00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:49,240 for corporate states, it's not that he thinks that slavery, 1046 00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:52,000 corporate slavery is good and nothing to worry about. 1047 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,040 It's more that because he thinks it won't happen. 1048 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,280 I think he's mistaken in that. But I guess my point is that 1049 00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:01,000 it's there is some ray of hope in the fact that some of the 1050 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,640 most powerful people in the world are not actually purely 1051 00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,320 motivated by money. Like they may actually be 1052 00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,960 motivated by a perverse vision of what good is. 1053 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,600 And by I also find in those philosophies that they actually 1054 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,440 do share some of my understanding of the role of 1055 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,760 existential risk. That like ultimately it is about 1056 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,840 long term survival of the civilization, even if there's 1057 00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:23,960 going to be a collapse in the way. 1058 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:25,640 Like, hey, I'm on board to that part too. 1059 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,160 I just completely disagree with you about what a long term 1060 00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,400 thriving civilization looks like and how to get there. 1061 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,560 But but like, if we share that goal, like, who knows, maybe one 1062 00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,440 day you will realize that your way doesn't work and maybe 1063 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,240 you'll start building a regenerative economy. 1064 00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:45,000 Yeah. I don't know how long, how far I 1065 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:46,640 want to take this line of reasoning. 1066 00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:51,120 But I think the core point is that there is maybe some hope 1067 00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,800 that powerful people could change their mind or could be 1068 00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,080 allies on some components of what we want to do. 1069 00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,320 I think it makes sense to treat them as. 1070 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:02,640 Acting in good faith. I think there are some people 1071 00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,840 who are at the the heights of wealth and corporate success 1072 00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,240 that care about winning and their ideology is basically just 1073 00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:12,880 that they like winning and being the best at things. 1074 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,720 But I think for those who are ideologically motivated, I think 1075 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:21,400 there's a there's a concept from from Platonic philosophy called 1076 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,840 Acrazia. And Socrates is asking like, how 1077 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,360 could anyone choose a bad thing if the good thing is right there 1078 00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,280 beside it? Everyone would obviously choose 1079 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,120 the good thing, right? And obviously the the answer to 1080 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,200 this is that they they misjudge or differently judge what is 1081 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,240 good. And even like peels Antichrist 1082 00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:40,600 lectures that he's been giving recently that identifies Greta 1083 00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,760 as a great threat and a candidate to be the Christian 1084 00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,240 Antichrist is there because she prevents the technology from 1085 00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:49,920 saving us from our own problems that we've created through 1086 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,120 technology and development. It's not just like evil for 1087 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,160 evil's sake. It's a different interpretation 1088 00:55:55,160 --> 00:56:00,400 of reality that I think is off, but it's not just evil for 1089 00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,040 evil's sake. And I think sometimes people 1090 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,280 forget and even like with Trump, I think Trump likes to win and 1091 00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,000 still wants to be liked. And even some of the Elon's most 1092 00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:11,120 pathetic stuff that is very mockable and sad, like him 1093 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:13,360 playing video games where everyone's like messaging him 1094 00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,440 about Grimes, like Grimes never loved you or whatever. 1095 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,680 You can like see it affecting him like he still has. 1096 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,280 He like, wants to be liked by people and thought of as a cool, 1097 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,200 smart person. Like, it's a very, very much 1098 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,000 like a Star Wars, like Darth Vader still got some good in 1099 00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,520 him. I think most people even like 1100 00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:30,840 people that we have grown to distrust and find out what 1101 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:32,280 they're doing to be quite terrible. 1102 00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:34,080 I like to think there is some hope for them. 1103 00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:35,640 There's still some heart left in there. 1104 00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,680 I think we do a disservice when we treat people as choosing evil 1105 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:40,240 for evil's sake. I don't know that that's as 1106 00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:43,160 common as we might think. And maybe that's a good place to 1107 00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,560 to rap and Oh yeah, have the last word on it. 1108 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,440 Yeah. And I think like at least. 1109 00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,920 For myself, I didn't think that they're choosing evil for evil's 1110 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:52,520 sake. I thought they're choosing evil 1111 00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,960 because it benefits them, like, because they want to feel like a 1112 00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,400 savior or something like that. But what I didn't realize that 1113 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,000 there might be actually a philosophy, even a philosophy I 1114 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:04,640 don't disagree with, I don't agree with. 1115 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:05,560 Behind it. Yeah. 1116 00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:07,440 You gotta go read some Renee Gerard and some. 1117 00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,000 Of the other people that they they like. 1118 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,320 And for next time, we'll talk critical theory and all that 1119 00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,320 stuff. Yeah, Thank you for coming on 1120 00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,080 the show. I really appreciate your work. 1121 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:18,240 Yeah, Thanks, Russ. This was great.