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Subscribe, and thank you so much 18 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:52,900 for listening to another season of reversing climate change. 19 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,600 Hello and welcome to the reversing climate change. 20 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,700 Pastime, Ross, Kenyan, we have a bonus episode with an alumnus 21 00:01:04,700 --> 00:01:07,100 dr. Brian Vaughn hurts in, you are 22 00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:09,800 back on the show executive director of the climate 23 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:15,000 foundation and globe-trotting for marine permaculture all over 24 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,500 the place. Exciting things, afoot, and I 25 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:22,400 recently saw you in a movie, I didn't expect to I was watching 26 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,600 2040 by Damon Guillermo. I believe is how you say it? 27 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:27,900 Brian. Damon Gamo. 28 00:01:28,100 --> 00:01:29,200 Damon game. Oh yeah. 29 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,300 Greetings from Earth. It's great to be here and we 30 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:33,700 love working with Damon on the 2040 film. 31 00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:36,300 That was such a great opportunity, to showcase our 32 00:01:36,300 --> 00:01:41,200 chance to draw down in the soils and the Seas and be able to work 33 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,200 towards a healthy climate by 2040. 34 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,800 I heard about it through the drawdown, Seattle group, the 35 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:47,700 organizer reached out and said, hey, you want to watch this. 36 00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:49,700 We're doing a live screening, I said, sure. 37 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,800 And I was wondering ahead of time if any familiar faces would 38 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,400 appear lo and behold Brian Vaughn Hartson out there on a 39 00:01:57,408 --> 00:02:02,400 boat looking like a real nada. All professional out there. 40 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:04,500 Very, very cool. So yeah. 41 00:02:04,500 --> 00:02:06,800 How did that happen? And what exactly were you doing 42 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,600 with Damon? Well, you know, I'm reading this 43 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,700 book and podcast right now by Amanda Palmer called The Art of 44 00:02:12,700 --> 00:02:15,800 asking, and this is all about, you know, leaning into the 45 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,700 change that the earth needs and we asked our friends, my friend 46 00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:21,600 had a 39-foot, Hinckley sailboat, beautiful boat. 47 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,300 He spent like 12 years restoring the hall and building the whole 48 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:27,800 thing and getting it out. We got Damon down in Woods Hole. 49 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,100 Our home town in Massachusetts. We Got out on the sailboat and 50 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:34,700 we shot this and it was just so much fun to capture that, you 51 00:02:34,700 --> 00:02:38,300 know, my partner, Rebecca got a picture of that sailboat on the 52 00:02:38,300 --> 00:02:42,100 on the front cover of wooden sailboat magazine and it's just 53 00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:44,000 one of these classic Hinckley 39s. 54 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,500 You know, it's just, it was so much fun being part of that but 55 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:49,900 that's it, you know, it's this sustainable Marine culture 56 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,400 permaculture, if you will, that is where it's at, it's about 57 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,700 using renewable energy sources, whether it's Marine solar near 58 00:02:56,700 --> 00:03:00,200 the equator, wind energy at the higher latitudes or wave One we 59 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,600 can to effectively provide the energy, we need to provide Deep 60 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,600 Water, Irrigation to our kelp forest and our seaweed Farms 24 61 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,500 hours a day and that's what we're testing from the 62 00:03:10,500 --> 00:03:13,700 Philippines to Tasmania. Yeah, you're on in Australia 63 00:03:13,700 --> 00:03:16,500 right now is you just got out of quarantine on arrival? 64 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,400 Yeah, we're just getting out of quarantine. 65 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,400 We just, we had half a year and Singapore, we managed to get a 66 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,000 visa from Australia. And we're going to set up our 67 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,700 International headquarters for the climate foundation in 68 00:03:26,700 --> 00:03:29,700 Queensland, and we're going to be doing engineering test with 69 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:32,300 our Our key Partners hash limited out of Toronto Canada, 70 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:36,200 they've got 10,000 professionals working with deployments in 150 71 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,000 countries. And for the second year they've 72 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,300 signed up for a major pro bono initiative to design the Marine 73 00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:44,800 permaculture at the 100 square meter scale. 74 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,900 The thousand square meter scale, and the commercial ha, and we're 75 00:03:47,900 --> 00:03:50,000 thrilled to be working with Partners like that and Minter, 76 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,600 Ellison, Law Firm out of Australia. 77 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,400 Who's really helped us on permitting on IP development and 78 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,800 ultimately on building the future that we need to see. 79 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,700 Apply it across the Pacific, Ocean to enable regenerating 80 00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:06,700 life in the ocean feeding. The billions of people that rely 81 00:04:06,700 --> 00:04:09,900 on the ocean for food and ultimately measuring that carbon 82 00:04:09,900 --> 00:04:14,100 export of these regenerative interventions to see how this is 83 00:04:14,100 --> 00:04:17,000 part of getting us back to a healthy climate, how much of 84 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,200 your choice of Australia is you paying homage to Bill Mollison? 85 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,700 Bill is huge, you know. I'm working with Bill and with 86 00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:27,800 Dave Holmgren to really lean into permaculture. 87 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,700 You know, Dave Holmgren told me me that bills original 88 00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:35,800 inspiration for permaculture was actually from the Tasmanian kelp 89 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,800 forests on the east side of Tasmania it was that connection 90 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:44,200 to the Sea and watching the sea birds and the Sea Life, the 91 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,600 seals and the sea lions and the fish all interacting below, the 92 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,200 water and above the water that was bills, original inspiration. 93 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,400 And so, you know, I missed meeting bill by just a few 94 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,700 months before he passed away. But this idea that bill got 95 00:04:59,900 --> 00:05:03,100 Started with the whole idea of permaculture really from 96 00:05:03,100 --> 00:05:06,400 watching the Marine ecosystem and then taking it to the 97 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,100 terrestrial Forest. But now we've gone full circle 98 00:05:09,100 --> 00:05:13,100 and say Marine permaculture is critically important to our 99 00:05:13,100 --> 00:05:16,400 survival as a species to regenerate life in the ocean. 100 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:19,100 Make sure we've got enough food for billions of people and 101 00:05:19,100 --> 00:05:22,100 ultimately getting our carbon budget back into balance. 102 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,100 Someone listening, if you're not familiar with what permaculture 103 00:05:25,100 --> 00:05:26,700 is. We've done a couple episodes one 104 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:29,300 of which is with Brian that you should definitely listen to to 105 00:05:29,300 --> 00:05:30,400 get up to speed. Speed. 106 00:05:30,700 --> 00:05:33,300 But Brian, how would you introduce someone to concept as 107 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:36,400 broad as permaculture in a little bonus episode? 108 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,200 Like this can you help someone get up to speed really quickly 109 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:40,700 about how you're thinking about this? 110 00:05:41,300 --> 00:05:45,200 Well, Dave Holmgren is written on the Dozen design principles 111 00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:49,600 of permaculture and it's really about living in equilibrium with 112 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,800 the forest and sustainably harvesting from that Forest to 113 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,600 sustain life. But furthermore to identify the 114 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,800 gaps that may exist and to Address those gaps as needed to 115 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,600 ensure a healthy and thriving ecosystem, that can support 116 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,800 humans and other animals. I mean, it's really where we are 117 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,600 part of Nature and we should not divorce ourselves from nature. 118 00:06:12,700 --> 00:06:15,300 That's the root cause of most of the problems. 119 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,300 And so, by being part of nature, we can live in equilibrium with 120 00:06:19,300 --> 00:06:22,100 nature. And what we are doing is taking 121 00:06:22,100 --> 00:06:25,800 those 12 permaculture design principles and applying those to 122 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,500 the marine environment, so that we can have healthy Seas. 123 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,700 And healthy soils that will result in a healthy Planet. 124 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:37,300 I see, I usually introduce people by saying something, like 125 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,300 creating systems that feed themselves such that there are 126 00:06:40,308 --> 00:06:42,500 not Reliant upon external inputs. 127 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,100 Especially synthetic ones. You have this sort of like 128 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:48,100 closed loop or they call them guilds often in permaculture. 129 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,100 But things that just work well together, such that you have 130 00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:54,400 what's the one straw Revolution? Line about lazy man's farming, 131 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,800 it just sort of comes together without you having to actively 132 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:58,900 manage, like steer inputs into it. 133 00:06:59,100 --> 00:07:01,300 Is that kind of how See it or am I missing something. 134 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:03,200 There the fewer inputs the better. 135 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,600 The beauty about kelp for us is that they don't need any 136 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,900 fertilizer, they don't need any fresh water and they don't need 137 00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:12,200 any land area. And we realize that there's this 138 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,600 little sliver of life on the edge of the Pacific Ocean. 139 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,400 That was actually the most productive ecosystem on the 140 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,100 planet. You look at a tropical 141 00:07:20,100 --> 00:07:23,400 rainforest, like the Brazilian Rainforest can fix maybe two 142 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,700 thousand two hundred grams of carbon per square meter per 143 00:07:25,700 --> 00:07:27,300 year. But did you know that the kelp 144 00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:31,600 forest just offshore Seattle or just Offshore California, could 145 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,500 do 15 percent more than that per square meter per year, in terms 146 00:07:34,500 --> 00:07:39,400 of carbon fixation, it is the highest productive ecosystem on 147 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,700 the planet. And if we can identify what's 148 00:07:42,700 --> 00:07:48,100 needed in terms of substrate and irrigation to enable that kelp 149 00:07:48,100 --> 00:07:52,400 forest, ecosystem to thrive further offshore u.s. eez goes 150 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:57,200 out 300 km. And if we can effectively enable 151 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,300 that entire exclusive economic zone, Opened up to doing 152 00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:06,500 sustainable Marine permaculture. We can in fact, rescue the life 153 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:08,700 on the planet. When we've got Marine heat 154 00:08:08,700 --> 00:08:10,900 waves. When you have El Nino, when the 155 00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:14,700 upwelling shuts down and we lose Shoreline kelp forests, these 156 00:08:14,700 --> 00:08:17,800 Marine permaculture is offshore can keep the sardines alive. 157 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:19,500 They can keep the sea lions alive. 158 00:08:19,500 --> 00:08:20,900 They can keep the sea birds alive. 159 00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:24,500 Regenerate, those ecosystem Services offshore even during 160 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:26,900 times of climate disruption. And that's what it's all about 161 00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:30,400 is having that equilibrium and the amazing thing is Is with 162 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,100 sunlight and some deep water. You've got a thriving kelp 163 00:08:33,100 --> 00:08:36,900 forest, that's all it takes. What's been the hurdle for 164 00:08:36,900 --> 00:08:39,799 getting this mainstream? It seems like you're doing a lot 165 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:43,400 of the research saying. This works at 100 M2. 166 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,200 Let's try it at 1,000, and it seems like a big part of your 167 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,700 research. In this trailblazing is about 168 00:08:48,700 --> 00:08:51,500 the commercial viability of these systems. 169 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,200 Is that what you're working on? Basically? 170 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:56,200 Yeah, it's about Crossing, from the science in the basic 171 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,500 science, we know through to the commercialization and we call 172 00:08:59,500 --> 00:09:03,000 that Passing the valley of death and quite frankly, it takes like 173 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,700 10 million dollars to get from the R&D to a successful and 174 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:08,600 growing industry. And that's what we're doing 175 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,700 right now. And so we've had some help from 176 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:13,800 foundations. We've done a crowdfunder down in 177 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,600 Australia, with Intrepid foundation, and we've raised two 178 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,000 thirds of a million dollars for a kelp forest deployment off of 179 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,500 Australia that will demonstrate this at maybe 100 M2 scale. 180 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,700 We're fundraising right now in the US with a climate 181 00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:32,500 foundation.org website and R t to do crowdfunder centered on 182 00:09:32,500 --> 00:09:34,100 the US. And the idea is that in the 183 00:09:34,100 --> 00:09:36,900 Pacific Ocean. We're going to raise a million 184 00:09:36,900 --> 00:09:39,200 dollars to deploy a thousand square meters. 185 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,800 In the Pacific Ocean that will demonstrate that that's critical 186 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,800 scale at 1000 square meters, which is our funding Gap right 187 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:47,500 now. And then we're looking to 188 00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:50,900 develop the commercial scale. Ha, that will be the basis for 189 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:55,100 the family kelp forest farmer stretching from Australia, to 190 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:57,900 the states. And in fact, the subsistence 191 00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:02,400 seaweed farmer in Pins, there's a quarter million subsistence 192 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,700 seaweed farmers, who are each allowed to farm, one hectare of 193 00:10:06,700 --> 00:10:09,400 tropical Red, Sea weeds and enable those to grow. 194 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,600 And that we've developed a cash-flow positive economic 195 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,800 model for that one. Ha and you know, each member of 196 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,000 those families can can do a ha. And then once we get that 197 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,600 working in the Philippines, there are two million 198 00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:24,400 subsistence seaweed farmers in Indonesia that need this 199 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,300 technology. Because those folks, they're 200 00:10:26,300 --> 00:10:28,300 living on the front lines of climate disruption. 201 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:31,000 The waters too warm. The Nutrient levels are too low. 202 00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:34,600 We are having to deal with this and fill those nutrient value 203 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,800 chain gaps so that we can regenerate the productivity of 204 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,900 the kelp forest and the seaweed farms and make sure that nature 205 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,500 has what she needs to enable us to get back on track with our 206 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:46,600 carbon balance. I believe this is the same 207 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,300 technology. You brought up last time you're 208 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:51,600 on the show but it involves taking cooler water. 209 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,800 That's deeper down and pumping it up to where the Farms 210 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,400 actually are growing seaweed is that right? 211 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:57,900 Yes. That's right. 212 00:10:57,900 --> 00:11:01,300 We'll use in the tropics Marine. Or energy in the higher 213 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,200 latitudes. Like temperate zones, there's 214 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,900 plenty of wave energy off the coast of the West Coast of the 215 00:11:05,908 --> 00:11:08,800 US and across, you know, around the world in temperate 216 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,000 latitudes. And I was just on the phone 217 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,300 today to some of our colleagues and University of Tasmania who 218 00:11:15,300 --> 00:11:19,800 are looking at wave energy to enable the upwelling of water to 219 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,500 actually provide the irrigation that the kelp forest need. 220 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,200 And that's exactly the kind of Technology we can use because 221 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,600 it's local, use of energy, it's easy to harvest energy there. 222 00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:32,600 There's copious amounts of it and this is exactly what we need 223 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,200 in order to make those kelp forest Thrive off shore. 224 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:40,100 So in this future where there is family's farming, like I ha out 225 00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:42,300 in the Pacific right off the coast of California or whatever, 226 00:11:42,300 --> 00:11:46,400 if that's a future lifestyle as possible, are they imitating 227 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:47,600 permaculture? In the sense that there is 228 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,500 multiple income streams that are interacting, are they farming 229 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:53,500 oysters and scallops at the bottom of these kelp forests? 230 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:56,600 What is happening in between all these various creatures in 231 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,300 there? Well, near shore in The Harbours 232 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:02,400 and Bay's. It's eutrophic enough. 233 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,300 It has enough nutrients that the kelp forest can have a 234 00:12:05,300 --> 00:12:08,200 sustainable Harvest and you can have shellfish as well and 235 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,600 they're eating the microalgae and some of the macroalgae. 236 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,600 It turns out as you go further offshore, we're very 237 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,300 enthusiastic about having a sustainable seaweed Harvest and 238 00:12:17,300 --> 00:12:20,500 a sustainable fish Harvest. You know, each morning, I love 239 00:12:20,500 --> 00:12:23,600 to eat celery and sardines because that's a great 240 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,700 combination of one of my favorites, but we plan to grow a 241 00:12:26,700 --> 00:12:29,100 trillion. Instead of going to regenerate 242 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:32,600 the base of the food web for the entire oceans and getting those 243 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,100 sardines back, it's all about build it and they will come. 244 00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:40,300 Because if we build the kelp forest we create enough fish 245 00:12:40,300 --> 00:12:44,700 habitat that those sardines will live in the kelp forest be 246 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:47,700 protected by the habitat of the kelp forest and then we'll grow 247 00:12:47,700 --> 00:12:50,400 to such populations that. They'll start spilling out of 248 00:12:50,408 --> 00:12:53,200 the kelp forest and the game Fish, and the apex, predators 249 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,500 will get involved, and we'll have this thriving kelp forest 250 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,900 protection. Around which the sardines will 251 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:02,900 grow and grow. And so this is really the key is 252 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:05,000 the sardines. Anchovies, the small, salmon 253 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,000 heads. These are the forage fish that 254 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,300 will regenerate life in the ocean. 255 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,400 I love it. And I also love eating sardines 256 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:13,700 and I have to try it with celery. 257 00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:17,800 It's a very I can imagine that tastes combo seems very good to 258 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,000 me. Is the problem here, Finance or 259 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,900 property rights or is it something more biological in the 260 00:13:24,908 --> 00:13:26,900 sense that it's temperature or biochemical? 261 00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:29,200 I should say? What is the reason? 262 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,400 This doesn't already exist. What's blocking it today? 263 00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:34,500 Well, they're two gaps. We have to address, we have to 264 00:13:34,500 --> 00:13:37,000 address nutrient, value chain gaps in the ocean. 265 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,100 When the appalling fails, when we get the big warm blob coming 266 00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:42,800 down from Alaska. When we get the next El Nino, 267 00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:46,300 these increasingly frequent climate disruptions disrupt. 268 00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:48,900 The nutrient value chain that the kelp forest needs in order 269 00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:51,100 to thrive the nitrate. The phosphate the 270 00:13:51,100 --> 00:13:53,600 micronutrients, that's all from upwelling water. 271 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,200 We've got to ensure that we can keep that up. 272 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,000 Well and going now, Now the second Gap is capital formation 273 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,100 Gap, right now. It costs a million bucks to do, 274 00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:06,000 you know a fraction of a hectare and probably, our first ha will 275 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,200 be two or three million but the benefits are we could be looking 276 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,900 at a million dollar Revenue stream when we get this right 277 00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:14,700 and get it cost reduced. So that's really the chance that 278 00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:17,700 the opportunity is to cover that initial development funding 279 00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:21,100 develop the technology license. It broadly through our marine 280 00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:24,400 permaculture Alliance and really build a Global Network of folks 281 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,200 that want to go and build. Those ha sighs farms and make 282 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,500 them Work. We're developing food feed, and 283 00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:32,200 fertilizer markets that are going to enable this industry to 284 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,500 thrive and that'll fill the economic value chain Gap. 285 00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:38,300 That will help people do good while doing well, and I think 286 00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:40,500 it's building an entire Army of these. 287 00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:43,400 That really is a key. Now, on the regulatory side 288 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,000 today, if you tried to do an acre, a kelp on the coast of 289 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,400 California, you'd be dealing with 17, state and federal local 290 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,300 agencies, and against federal agencies to try to get a permit, 291 00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:57,000 and it could take decades, which is really a long time. 292 00:14:57,100 --> 00:15:00,000 But ultimately, Ultimately we're looking at developing a new 293 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,900 model and that is we register with the US Coast Guard Armory 294 00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:06,800 in permaculture vessel which is a barge, it's a ship that's 295 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,000 allowed 500 years of admiralty law and that precedent of 500 296 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,100 years of admiralty law is an incredible. 297 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:17,200 President to say this is a ship, it's allowed safe passage and 298 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,300 the safe passage means that we register with the Coast Guard 299 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,500 and we're allowed to sail. The seven seas were allowed to 300 00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:26,400 it, has some biofouling on it, it's got a bit more biofouling, 301 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,000 the next ship. Qualitatively, it is exactly 302 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,000 identical to the ships that sail, the seven seas and these 303 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,000 Marine permaculture vessels, vastly simplify the permission 304 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:38,500 that's needed. Basically a coast guard 305 00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:42,700 registration of a marine Vessel to operate a c and so those are 306 00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:45,600 the Regulatory and capital barriers that ultimately can 307 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,900 address the nutrient value chain gaps that are happening due to 308 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:51,400 climate disruption. All of those are interesting to 309 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,400 me. Do you have to fly a flag? 310 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,500 I know, plenty of vessels register in Liberia, and fly 311 00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:58,000 Liberian flag. I'm sure there's other 312 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,600 jurisdictions that are friendly for things like this. 313 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,000 Are you having to fly an American flag or register here 314 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,100 or some other combination? How does that work? 315 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,200 Well, we're in favor of working locally and thinking globally. 316 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,200 And so I think whenever possible use a local jurisdiction, the 317 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,600 intent of marine permaculture is to enable local and Regional 318 00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:21,600 thriving seaweed for us and Industry and Fin fish as well as 319 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,400 occasionally the shellfish. So I think whenever we can work 320 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,200 locally we do, we have Many countries like the Philippines, 321 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,300 we were able to get a permit to do the upwelling Marine 322 00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:35,200 permaculture system in eight weeks, you know? 323 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,400 So it's just, we go to the right countries and it works really, 324 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,900 really well as the industry grows, we'll see, increasing 325 00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:46,600 pressure to enable these regenerative Technologies to be 326 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,700 accelerated because this is the change that the earth needs. 327 00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:52,000 And this is what we need to do, to restore overturning 328 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,000 circulation. You know, the Permian mass 329 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,300 extinction happened, because the ocean stratified and there's 330 00:16:57,500 --> 00:17:00,000 More and more peer-reviewed literature coming out on this. 331 00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:02,900 And so what we're doing with Marine permaculture is really 332 00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:06,400 staving off the Permian mass extinction, one kelp forest at a 333 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,400 time and we're doing it in an economically sustainable way. 334 00:17:09,500 --> 00:17:12,099 This is our chance to do good while doing well. 335 00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:15,099 And this is the change of the earth needs on a time scale that 336 00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:17,500 the earth needs and that's why we're working so hard on it. 337 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,700 Wow. Well you're talking about doing 338 00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:24,400 good while doing well, are you also working with a non-profit 339 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,200 mentality to it? Seems like there are grants 340 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,500 being issued and In crowdfunding, but it seems like 341 00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:32,400 maybe the intention longer term is to license and be a 342 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,600 for-profit entity. What's the relationship between 343 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,000 these different Financial models? 344 00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:38,800 Well it's really a hybrid, I mean the research that we're 345 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,800 doing now enables tax deductible contributions in year, zero to 346 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,700 The Climate foundation in the u.s. our counterparts in 347 00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:50,800 Australia, Canada and the UK. So most of the Commonwealth 348 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,000 Nations these days we can enable this tax deductible Rd to occur. 349 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,300 Now, hybrid is needed and so weird. 350 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,700 In the process of developing a marine permaculture alliance 351 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,600 with our for-profit partners, see commentator who are based in 352 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,000 San Francisco and are working to valorize excess seaweed in the 353 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,900 Caribbean area and ultimately build the capital that will need 354 00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:14,600 to go beyond a hectare of marine permaculture towards dozens of 355 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,500 ha and even 100 hectares that can be done very far offshore. 356 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,100 So there's a real opportunity to build an industry here, and our 357 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:25,300 vision for the Marine permaculture Alliance is a broad 358 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:27,600 licensing program, where we've got reason All the 359 00:18:27,608 --> 00:18:30,300 non-discriminatory licensing and the improvements in the 360 00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:34,600 technology are copyleft back into the Marine permaculture 361 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,600 Alliance. So we can accelerate the 362 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,200 dissemination of improvements and intellectual property across 363 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,700 the industry and enable rapid adoption that the earth needs to 364 00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:46,800 really scale this on a global scale and literally we have 365 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,000 Marine permaculture architecture. 366 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,500 That works from the equator to the Arctic. 367 00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:55,500 So any open ocean area can be amenable to this kind of seaweed 368 00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:58,900 development and kelp forest. Generation and it's really the 369 00:18:58,900 --> 00:19:02,400 time is right to demonstrate this at scale to build the 370 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,800 capacity to show it works cost reduce it and build the Marine 371 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,800 permaculture industry on a broad basis. 372 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,800 So it's really a hybrid that starts with the nonprofit 373 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,900 development and moves into launching an industry that can 374 00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:16,900 generate jobs. Ensure sustainable livelihoods 375 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,900 and enable us to measure the carbon drawdown that we're going 376 00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:24,400 to need in the years ahead to really balance our civilization. 377 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,300 Wow. That is really, really exciting. 378 00:19:28,300 --> 00:19:29,900 Amazing. We're so happy to have 379 00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:33,400 volunteers around the world helping us to build capacity. 380 00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:36,400 And I think there's a huge opportunity that we can vote 381 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,200 with our feet in terms of the work that we're doing the 382 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,100 projects were working on. And furthermore, you know, when 383 00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:45,600 we can't vote with our feet to vote with our dollars, we're 384 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,900 doing a regular fundraiser. We hope to raise a million 385 00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:51,500 dollars to do the thousand square meters and whether it's 386 00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:55,300 time or money or other resources that's really a chance to spread 387 00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:58,700 the word to get this out and really I helped launch these 388 00:19:58,700 --> 00:20:01,400 critical Grassroots industries that are going to be the change 389 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,900 that the earth needs in order to regenerate life in the ocean and 390 00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:07,500 ensure we've got an earth worth saving. 391 00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:10,600 And the years ahead, that's got a biodiversity in the Seas. 392 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,200 Biodiversity in the soils. And that's the key to keeping 393 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,300 our own civilization productive and alive and well fed. 394 00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:18,800 Yeah. Well said, what is your current 395 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,300 thinking on the I know you call it carbon export or carbon 396 00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:24,500 removal or however you want to frame it. 397 00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:27,300 What do you think the potential is for marine permaculture? 398 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:29,800 It's huge. You know, we just got this great 399 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,700 coverage last week in an op-ed in the Washington Post, and it's 400 00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:36,800 it was done by Sir David King who really helped launch the 401 00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:41,900 and, and seal the deal on the Paris agreement years ago into 402 00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:44,900 2015. And so the opportunity now. 403 00:20:44,900 --> 00:20:48,600 And so David wrote, very eloquently about how the 404 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,700 director of capture technologies will get us to a certain point 405 00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:56,100 in terms of cost performance, it raises attention and awareness 406 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,600 and then sir, David went on to talk about Brent constants and 407 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,300 the blue planet initiative to actually build aggregate. 408 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,300 That's made out of calcium carbonate and effectively turns 409 00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:11,200 grains of sand into gravel. That you can put into roadways 410 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,800 and two airports into every concrete building you can 411 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,400 imagine and effectively freeze out and sequester the carbon for 412 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,000 a long time and that's a very sustainable industry at several 413 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,300 Giga tons. And it's one that I just did a 414 00:21:24,300 --> 00:21:27,200 lecture on a sovereign yesterday on our Stanford. 415 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,200 Or and Leslie Fields course on engineering and climate change. 416 00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:34,000 And I think that's a great opportunity as well. 417 00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:37,700 Then sir, David King went on in this op-ed to talk about the 418 00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:42,100 potential for Technologies like Marine permaculture to 419 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,500 effectively you know Feed the World regenerate life in the 420 00:21:45,500 --> 00:21:49,600 oceans and draw down carbon and amazingly effective prices. 421 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,700 We're talking about, we like to say the first Giga tons on us 422 00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:56,900 because as we grow food feed and fertilizer, we're going to be 423 00:21:56,900 --> 00:21:59,700 fixing Carbon and measuring that carbon export. 424 00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:02,900 And effectively, we can do it at a negative cost of carbon on the 425 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:05,700 first gigaton. Once we're past that, even if we 426 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:09,700 need to fix more to restore a healthy climate will be able to 427 00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:12,600 do. So at really amazing cost 428 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,900 points, you know, hopefully, well below a hundred dollars per 429 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:20,000 ton and that means at a cost of $80 per ton or less that we've 430 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,400 got a very sustainable approach to enabling the Earth to be 431 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,100 healthy to ensure. We've got the food security to 432 00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:30,000 ensure Have political stability around the world for years to 433 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,600 come and and that we can actually draw down potentially 434 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,200 gigatons of carbon as we develop this sustainable industry around 435 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,800 the world in a distributed way. Well, if someone's listening and 436 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,100 they want to keep up with, what you're doing in your progress, 437 00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:46,500 where might you direct them? I would direct them to our 438 00:22:46,500 --> 00:22:49,200 client Foundation website. We've got updates that occur 439 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,500 regularly with our newsletters. We have an ongoing crowdfunder 440 00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:55,300 there, we're really interested in building capacity and 441 00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:57,400 building a network with a marine permaculture. 442 00:22:57,500 --> 00:23:00,700 Ants that will enable the whole world to benefit from ring 443 00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:03,300 permaculture technology and ensure we've got the food 444 00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:07,200 security to ensure that we can have our civilization continued 445 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,500 in a healthy way even during times of marine heat waves and 446 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:13,200 climate disruption. So we're really looking forward 447 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,300 to that, we've got an info Channel there, they can email us 448 00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:18,100 at info at climate foundation.org. 449 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,500 And we're looking forward to really building capacity to 450 00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:25,000 ensure that the ocean has what she needs to regenerate life to 451 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,400 staying healthy and to ultimately help. 452 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,500 Humans balance their carbon budget. 453 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:33,400 Great. And also you should watch 2040 454 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,400 and you can see Brian being a sailor man. 455 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,600 Living that Life. Aquatic us just being jealous. 456 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,800 Watching you out there Brian seems like you're having a lot 457 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,600 of well we're looking forward to having you come out. 458 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,300 Ross. You know, there's nothing I love 459 00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:47,200 better than snorkeling on a marine permaculture. 460 00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:50,400 Their millions of fish is beautiful kelp forest moving 461 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,000 around and they're just, I've got to tell you Nature has voted 462 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,400 with her fins. You know, we've got on our 463 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,400 marine permaculture. In Philippines, there are 464 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,800 millions of sardines. There's these tuna fish, I just 465 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,800 got off our phone with our team this morning and there's like 466 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,900 hundreds of tuna fish, cruising around enjoying the abundance. 467 00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:14,200 That is on the, on the Marine permaculture, we've had a family 468 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,100 of dolphins, spend more than a month with us hanging out. 469 00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:20,200 We've got some videos of these Dolphins frolicking and jumping 470 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,000 into the air, and even this whale shark swam, 200 kilometers 471 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:27,000 to hang out with us for three days and eat some of the bounty 472 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,000 thats coming. An author Marine permaculture. 473 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,800 So nature is voting with her fins, that's got to be the 474 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,000 greatest validation and being able to see that up close, if 475 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,000 you actually go snorkeling and check this wonderful island of 476 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,600 life, living in the deep ocean. It's just so heartwarming 477 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,500 experience. I look forward to sharing that 478 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,200 with so many of your listeners and with you because you know 479 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,000 it's really a chance to witness upfront and close and personal 480 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,800 the the way that we're able to regenerate life in the ocean 481 00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:57,700 What kind of potential you think there is for ocean 482 00:24:57,700 --> 00:24:59,400 entrepreneurship, for lack of a better term? 483 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,000 I'm sure there's people listening who are looking for 484 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,100 their next step and a lot of people are looking at climate 485 00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:05,900 Tech right now but I don't see the ocean getting a lot of love. 486 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,500 Where should they be looking? Well, it's early days, but I 487 00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:12,200 think having that Marine engineering experience, getting 488 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,000 in the ocean, going snorkeling or swimming or surfing, that's 489 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,500 the kind of hands and feet in the water that are really 490 00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:20,400 important. And so I think building that 491 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,200 comfort with the oceans is great. 492 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,400 And as people see Seems like 2040. 493 00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:29,900 Inevitably, you know, we fall in love with the ocean, with the 494 00:25:29,900 --> 00:25:34,200 kelp forest with charismatic megafauna that lived there like 495 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,500 the Leafy Sea Dragon. And the, you know, the wonderful 496 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,700 lobsters and there was this octopus film that we just saw my 497 00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:45,800 octopus teacher at it just like, okay, I'm just going to fall in 498 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,400 love with this ecosystem. That's what drives people to, to 499 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,400 be the change that the earth needs, and that's the kind of 500 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,000 fulfilling Doing good while doing well that I think makes 501 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,200 such a huge difference. And so I think it's that 502 00:25:59,208 --> 00:26:00,900 connection to the ocean, that's really critical. 503 00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:05,200 And as we build our capacity and basically grow, this industry 504 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,600 will have exponential opportunities. 505 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,700 I think to, you know, to really enable these Marine careers to 506 00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:14,800 take off Peter teal invested a bunch in in seasteading some 507 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,500 years ago. And we'd like to say Marine 508 00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:19,800 permaculture is the reason for seasteading to exist. 509 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,700 In other words, this is the irrigated farming that Oils. 510 00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:29,500 The communities on the sea to thrive and ultimately, it's all 511 00:26:29,500 --> 00:26:32,500 about building. The tribe of abundance and 512 00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:35,900 moving from the economics of scarcity, towards the tribe of 513 00:26:35,900 --> 00:26:39,000 abundance, the where we have enough to share with ourselves 514 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,100 and our neighbors, and that's a completely different mindset. 515 00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:46,000 It's a completely different world and it's really moving 516 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,500 from Fear to love and that's what we'd love to see happen. 517 00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:55,100 One kelp forest at a time. That's a lovely sense of Well, 518 00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:58,000 thanks for being here, Brian. My pleasure, Ross is great to 519 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,500 talk with you and catch up again is so great to be back on the 520 00:27:00,500 --> 00:27:04,100 Nori show and podcast and we're looking forward to working 521 00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:06,500 together towards building that regenerative future that we all 522 00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:10,100 need absolutely definitely on the same team here and would be 523 00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:12,900 happy to have you back on when there's more progress. 524 00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:15,900 It sounds like you have a lot of irons in the fire so maybe won't 525 00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:19,300 be nearly so long. Next time, we're looking forward 526 00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:23,200 to bringing in regular reports on the Western Pacific hanging 527 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,400 out here during the pandemic. Gemma canned bringing that 528 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,300 technology across the Pacific as soon as it's safe to do so. 529 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,500 Terrific. Well let's do it again. 530 00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:32,800 And thanks again. Brian, I'll thank you Roz. 531 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:39,500 Take Care. Thank you so much for listening. 532 00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:41,900 If you like the show, please rate and review it in apple 533 00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:45,100 podcast and or Stitcher. It really helps us a lot to get 534 00:27:45,100 --> 00:27:46,800 this content to a wider audience. 535 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,400 If you think what we're doing is useful, interesting fun. 536 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,900 Hopefully, all three, we certainly appreciate your rating 537 00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:53,900 and review. You can keep up with Nori at 538 00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:55,400 Nori. Dot-com where there is a 539 00:27:55,408 --> 00:27:58,900 newsletter that's nor e.com. 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