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You're listening to the 
reversing climate change, 

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podcast by the team at Nori. 
The carbon removal Marketplace. 

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This is a show about the 
innovators and entrepreneurs 

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developing solutions to climate 
change. 

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Hello and welcome to the 
reversing climate change 

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podcast. 
I'm Ross Kenyan I'm the creative

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editor at Nori's carbon removal 
Marketplace. 

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Today I have with me Melanie 
Challenger writer of 

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environmental history podcaster 
at the new show. 

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Enter the psycho sphere and 
Author of her latest book, how 

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to be animal, a new history of 
what it means to be human. 

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Welcome to the show. 
Melanie, thank you for inviting 

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me. 
Yeah, I'm happy to have you. 

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I'm going to start with maybe 
the biggest question of all, 

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which is what does it mean to be
human, in your opinion? 

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And if this takes the entire 
hour that's okay, yeah you 

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should probably takes a bit 
longer than an hour in the book.

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What I'm answering there is 
actually a critique of the idea 

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that being human is Thing 
separate or even separable from 

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being animal. 
So the reason it has that 

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subtitle is really because not 
in all. 

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Absolutely, all societies. 
And obviously this this just 

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does change culturally and it 
does change historically as 

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well. 
That said there's remarkable 

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commonality in certain ways in 
which you in which humans have 

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thought about what it is to be 
human. 

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And one of those is that we have
tended to live by a sort of 

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substance dualism. 
So we've Ross all societies 

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whether hunter-gatherer 
Societies or sort of large kind 

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of monotheistic societies. 
We've had this idea that there's

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this animal better versus 
fleshies Mortal part of us and 

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then there's this spiritual part
of us. 

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Now, it could be the sole. 
It could be the kind of living 

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Essence. 
That let's say, if you were a 

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Navajo, Indian you might think 
was the living Essence that did 

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all creatures have, and that 
it's connected together as the 

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kind of advice. 
Source that is in all living 

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things, whatever your culture. 
We've tended, to have this idea 

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of this animal mortal part of us
in this spiritual part of us 

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now, in modern civilizations and
particularly in monotheistic 

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civilizations, we've taken those
that sort of duelist idea that 

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there's this sort of immortal, 
spiritual part of us in this 

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fleshy, bit that dies. 
And we've started, not only to 

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play sort, Value judgments on 
it. 

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So we've said, it's this 
actually assist spiritual bit. 

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That makes us humans this 
spiritual bit that matters that 

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has value. 
And increasingly we said, well, 

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we're the only beings with its 
two. 

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It's become a sort of human 
exceptionalist narrative as 

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well, and that takes us right 
the way through. 

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Now originally, that was a 
theological idea and partly a 

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natural history idea. 
Was partly a question of what 

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is, what is the substance of us?
What are we made of and what 

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matters about us but it was 
always knitted in Theology. 

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So, it was always the idea that 
this is how we've been created, 

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that this is the human soul 
versus in the animal part of 

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life. 
Then you arrive at the 

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Enlightenment and you get a 
slight as sort of twist on this,

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which is the idea that actually,
what really makes humans stick 

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out within the biotic Community 
as our kind of cognition. 

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Our ability to reason to 
rationalized have free will and 

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this is the mind as this kind of
this Soul like part of us. 

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And really that's carried right 
through to the present day. 

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So when I'm talking about what 
it is to be human, I'm really 

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trying to push up against that a
little bit and say well we have 

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no evidence for that kind of 
substance dualism and where it 

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should be true. 
The older idea that it's 

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probably in all living things 
would certainly be more likely 

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parsimonious wise to be the true
to be true. 

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So the human exceptionalist 
narrative looks very problematic

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at this point in time in our 
learning and in Tree. 

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But I argue that this idea that 
we've had for a long time now 

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that the animal bit of us 
doesn't matter or it could be 

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separated out and that there's 
this human, either cognitive or 

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spiritual part that somehow 
separate is likely to be true, 

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doesn't serve as well. 
And that, actually, to answer 

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your question, being human is 
being animal. 

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So that's my point. 
That would be, that would be my 

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answer. 
That would be what I would say. 

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Surprisingly graceful given, how
enormous that question is. 

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Well done. 
Okay, I'm catching definite 

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Echoes of the episode we did 
with Paul Kings North. 

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In fact, I found out about your 
book because Paul Kings North 

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blurbed it and then posted about
it on social media and we hardly

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exhausted. 
This topic. 

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We spent most of the time 
talking about mind-body dualism 

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and what he sees as the problems
that have led to us feeling 

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disconnected and in some cases, 
trying to transcend the body or 

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physical reality entirely and 
becoming pure idea or spirit. 

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Being uploaded into machines, 
Souls into the cloud, perhaps 

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you could phrase it, but one of 
the things I noticed that was 

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interesting about your approach 
that was quite different. 

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Is that what did you know, that 
Paul converted to Eastern 

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Orthodoxy and we followed that 
whole Saga now. 

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So pull I've known for a long 
time. 

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He so I was born in Oxford and 
went to Oxford University and 

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poor went to Oxford and is 
innocent in a small room is kind

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of pulls older than me but we're
in a kindness. 

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A group of people who sort of 
loosely a floated around the 

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Oxford area, George Formby. 
Oh, Casper Henderson who writing

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these sorts of areas and, and 
kind of or know one another and 

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value. 
One another but have very 

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different approaches. 
Put us at a pool in. 

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I've corresponded for a long 
time and we've sort of 

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collaborated on one or two 
things. 

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I'm really fond of Paul that we 
don't necessarily agree on 

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everything, but we but, you 
know, that doesn't matter to, 

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you know, you shouldn't have to 
intellectually it Delight day. 

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I haven't followed this part 
since he's Be wary of telling me

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about this, but he did tell me 
that he was really when he went 

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to Ireland, because I knew, you 
know, I've seen him when he was 

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in Cumbria as well and he 
shifted over to Ireland, with 

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his family, his young family, 
and in his correspondence, since

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he's been engaging more and more
initially with a sort of ancient

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vestiges of Christianity that 
we're in. 

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And this particular Chapel, I 
think that he'd found and I ate 

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they've been these little 
tidbits that means been dropping

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into two Two messages to me but 
virtually no, and I haven't 

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teased it out, possibly out of 
fear, I don't know what, he 

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might tell me where he's got up 
to, so you tell me what's 

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Paul's. 
Awesome, Paul's head. 

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Now, what he converted to no, 
no, that's that's fine. 

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I'm going to make this episode 
about Paul either. 

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If you're listening, Paul, 
sorry, we're talking about 

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Melanie today. 
We love you pool anyway. 

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I thought this Divergence was 
really interesting because he's 

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open. 
Now he talked about it on the 

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show, becoming orthodox. 
He's been writing and thinking 

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about this lately in public, so 
I don't think it's a surprise to

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anyone who follows his work, but
he's really seized upon this 

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idea. 
And the Apostles Creed of the 

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resurrection of the body and 
sort of Catholicism and 

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Orthodoxy of being away. 
That Christianity doesn't have 

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to have this mind-body dualism, 
that involves a disembodied, 

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Soul floating up to heaven. 
It could actually be a kingdom 

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of God on Earth kind of thing. 
It could actually be located 

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within the body. 
There doesn't have to be the 

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split. 
Within Christian thought, but it

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sounds like, maybe you see it 
differently and you think 

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because you single out, Thomas 
Aquinas and angelology, kind of 

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what a horrible word that is the
sounds of that don't even fit in

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my mouth. 
I know, sweetie, but do you 

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think that's there's something 
to that or do you think that's 

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been a wrong turn? 
Perhaps, Do I think, do I think 

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it's possible or what are you 
asking me? 

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I mean, I look, it's really 
difficult when we cherry pick 

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from history and this is because
I do big history stuff. 

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That's something. 
I'm acutely aware of because I 

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also work, you know, within 
philosophy and within 

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philosophy. 
There's a great resistance to to

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those kind of big panoramic, 
sort of because she views and 

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that you have to be careful and 
and indeed historians are 

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always, you know, because they 
specialize in a particular area 

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always and In Christian thought,
broadly, it's so unbelievably 

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diverse and once you start going
into the detail of different 

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ways in which so the theological
arguments, if we were to look 

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even and aquinas's time that 
were happening about what might 

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be possible, how to interpret 
text, how to interpret, you 

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know, theologically either, what
they're finding in scripture or 

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kind of ideas, theological ideas
that are going to matter to 

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Christians. 
It's so complicated. 

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That that There's lots and lots 
of diversity of ideas, but I 

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would say, if I was going to be 
generalizing about it, you could

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pick out a couple of things from
that sort of time. 

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Period. 
First is the Angel ologist 

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thing. 
So this is the idea that you 

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know, that was debated a lot, 
you know, how if the Angels 

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aren't sort of beings in a 
physical sense. 

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How are they even recognizing, 
say, married to be able to come 

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and give a met deliver a 
message? 

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So these are the sorts of 
conundrums that feel that, you 

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know, feel Your fingers were 
having to think about, like, 

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what substance can also 
recognize a living person know 

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that that is different to 
another big number. 

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You know, biologically. 
That's a really reasonable 

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question to ask, isn't it? 
Like recognizing who's kin who's

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knocking? 
Who's pray? 

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Whose Predator is. 
Crucial to all biological 

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systems but it led on to ideas 
about whether we really even 

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needed bodies to recognize 
things, whether you could have a

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kind Kind of cognition that was 
ethereal in that sort of way. 

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And those Echoes from those only
debates and possible solutions 

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to these debates weave their way
into into philosophy and into 

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intellectual history and you 
know we see them returning 

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another one in terms of 
Resurrection that is that is 

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interesting with the idea that 
you could take the troubling 

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idea that you don't Saints, who 
might have been cut up into 

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different parts or you know 
Someone might have a saint, so 

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active artifact in one church 
and might be another one. 

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How were these parts of the 
body? 

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Going to Rico here at the 
resurrection? 

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And this was a real concern, but
that led on. 

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When we look at the early, 
scientific Endeavors to 

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understand the workings of 
movement and body and anatomy 

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and so forth. 
To the experiments, only kind of

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150 years ago to work out if a 
soul could extend. 

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Into another room and so they 
would sort of cut off a frogs 

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head and, and you know, apply 
some, you know, some fun with 

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stimulation and see if it still 
moved and see if it if you took 

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the head into a whole other room
but it's still moving. 

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How far could you keep going? 
How far would the soul extend? 

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You see this weird interplay of 
theological and scientific and 

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philosophical ideas that kind of
bubble along through the 

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centuries? 
We have a very incomplete to 

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answer your question. 
No, very incomplete idea. 

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Out what we are but I'm very 
cautious when looking at 

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intellectual history about 
extrapolating from theological. 

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Dial a into you know scientific 
ideas or assumptions. 

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I'm certainly. 
You know we they can really 

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mislead us. 
I think sometimes it's not an 

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area that I tend to go down. 
It must have met enough mean, 

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Paul locates your question at 
all Ross? 

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Sorry. 
Yes it does. 

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And we're going to follow it up 
and I think what I I want to do 

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is close the door to some of the
way that Paul sees it because 

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you approach it from a different
angle. 

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I just want to address those and
then we'll close it off and then

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we'll take it for given that 
Christianity is by necessity a 

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dualistic philosophy that has 
separated mind and body or soul 

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and body. 
Because he locates it with in 

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gnosticism not Harris that 
heresy? 

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Or is it the heresy depending on
who you are really, but of 

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everything matter is bad. 
Everything spirit is good. 

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The material world was created 
by a demon essentially and God 

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is as pure spirit. 
And this is an early Trend in 

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Christian thought that was, you 
know, sort of stamped out and 

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then revived with people like 
Dan Brown and The DaVinci Code 

228
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and stuff like that. 
So let's ignore fights like 

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that. 
And just say that, yeah, 

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Christianity. 
And most religions have an idea 

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of a soul and a body and their 
distinct and your work, Blends 

232
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philosophical insights, but also
science science has tried to 

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locate whether there actually. 
Is a soul. 

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00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,500
And you have this example, you 
just gave of the Frog, which it 

235
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sounds silly, right? 
But there's not a lot of work on

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this and I know I have friends 
who work in philosophy of mind, 

237
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,500
and I don't know that most of 
them by the idea that there is a

238
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soul separate from the body, 
which is that, is that probably 

239
00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:07,500
true, you know, it's really 
serve as a great neuroscientist 

240
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,600
called Alan. 
Yes, enough. 

241
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,700
Who's at Harvard and he's done a
huge amount to try and Miss bust

242
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,800
on this sort of really for him 
near. 

243
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,400
Essentialism, which is the idea 
that we only need to look to the

244
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,500
brain if you like to answer 
questions, if mind and 

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Consciousness, he says, well, 
no, it's very wet, it's very 

246
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messy. 
You know Consciousness? 

247
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Yes. 
It's brain-based it draws on the

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whole of the body and you can't 
ignore the body when we think 

249
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about mind and Consciousness. 
And and we preferred kind of 

250
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these simple algorithmic. 
Kind of electrical national. 

251
00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:45,900
He says, merits kind of fits 
more messily biological than 

252
00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:50,100
we've liked. 
To admit but I think that if you

253
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ask most scientists even you 
know deeply religious scientists

254
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who deal in cognition, they 
would say that they're not 

255
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,500
drawing on any idea of the Soul 
or any that they're not 

256
00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:08,700
Duelists, you know, that they're
very much looking for material 

257
00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:12,500
explanations for Consciousness 
and mind and so forth. 

258
00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:16,800
But if you were to talk to them 
about how they feel about, let's

259
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,600
say, A doing Consciousness 
experiments on macaques, why 

260
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,300
that might be doing a 
distressing experiment, you 

261
00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:27,200
know, even with the best care in
the world, you know, it is it is

262
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,600
a distressing situation that an 
animal might be in is 

263
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,200
permissible, but it's not 
permissible with humans. 

264
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,700
They would say well because you 
know, we have a kind of 

265
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cognition, they don't have and 
it morally matters more and you 

266
00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:44,900
know, if you were to talk to 
them about what matters about 

267
00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:48,400
us, they would probably talk in 
A sort of human cognitive 

268
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,900
exception of this terms because 
that's kind of how our world is 

269
00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:53,500
structured now. 
So the funny thing is, is that 

270
00:14:53,500 --> 00:14:59,500
you can accidentally have quite 
sort of duelist ideas that are 

271
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,100
that if you get really 
questioned about them, actually 

272
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:06,900
very difficult to fully justify 
or even in entirely explain. 

273
00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:11,200
Why you think that that creep in
and often creeping to Scientific

274
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,900
papers and scientific ideas? 
These little sort of value 

275
00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:19,100
assumptions are actually 
suspicious, To an assist even in

276
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,300
neuroscientist of cognitive 
scientist, who might be really 

277
00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:24,900
DieHard, materialists about 
mental phenomena. 

278
00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:30,700
So, and I think some of that is 
really just bias on our part and

279
00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:33,700
it completely understandable by 
us, you know, we have a 

280
00:15:33,708 --> 00:15:36,800
cognitive Niche is a species, 
there's no question about that. 

281
00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:40,400
And consequently, we put a huge 
premium on it and it deeply 

282
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,400
deeply matters to us. 
But the kind of neat sort of 

283
00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:49,500
ideas about being human and and 
what our mental experiences that

284
00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:54,100
often sort of admit a certain 
dualism, you know, allow it 

285
00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:56,900
through the door. 
Go unexamined. 

286
00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,600
So I think that's where we can 
still see it in the present day.

287
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:02,800
For instance, it's coded into 
English, right? 

288
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,900
I have a body versus I am a 
body. 

289
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,300
Yes, if you said, I am a body. 
Someone be like cool. 

290
00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:12,400
Your like a new age freak, huh? 
Yeah, it's so true. 

291
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,200
It's so true. 
Yeah, I've always found it. 

292
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,800
Incredible. 
That the Vanity is the way in 

293
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,700
which our subjective 
Consciousness works, is that it 

294
00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:25,700
does? 
I mean, it genuinely does feel 

295
00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:28,500
people like Sam Harris. 
If really tried to take this on 

296
00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:32,600
and show people that it's, it's 
a sort of Illusion, this idea 

297
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,300
that we are some sort of 
floating thing, kind of trapped 

298
00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:39,400
inside, you know, in Christian 
terms or Earthen vessel, you 

299
00:16:39,408 --> 00:16:43,300
know, that that we are somehow 
being carried around by our 

300
00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:46,200
body. 
It does kind of feel like that 

301
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,900
and all Also, if you ask people 
to think about what a life would

302
00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:54,700
feel like, you know, the 
affective states of experience 

303
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,600
without subjectivity, it's 
really difficult for people. 

304
00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:02,200
It's much easier to imagine as 
John Locke. 

305
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,000
Did, you know, the kind of it? 
I have a thought experiment in, 

306
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,300
which you can imagine thinking 
in a different body, then you 

307
00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:14,900
can imagine being feeling in a 
body without subjectivity and 

308
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:19,200
so, that's so Wrong that such a 
strong sensation for human 

309
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,200
beings. 
Even if it's, you know, to a 

310
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,300
certain extent illusory not to 
say that subjectivity is still 

311
00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:29,200
is in illusion but just that 
idea that there is this kind of 

312
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,900
Duality is an illusion rather 
than a reality of our of our 

313
00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:38,700
condition and of How It's 
actually biologically, you know,

314
00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:42,600
and hormonal and chemically 
emerging in us, you know, I 

315
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,700
think that, you know, you can 
understand why for millennia 

316
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,200
Here we have have tended to 
think in that kind of way 

317
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,500
because that is what our 
experience feels like. 

318
00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:54,500
That's what I've experienced 
presents us. 

319
00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:56,500
You know, it's really really 
difficult to think in it 

320
00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:59,900
differently about it. 
I think you keep using this term

321
00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:03,000
human exceptionalism or things 
that can do that. 

322
00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:08,900
What does that mean? 
Yeah, you know is that it's it's

323
00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:12,700
funny isn't it these little kind
of phrases that we have I guess 

324
00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:16,600
probably the phrase that people 
would be more familiar with 

325
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:22,000
nowadays is anthropocentrism, 
you know, which is akin to human

326
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,700
exceptional. 
Exceptional ISM. 

327
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:31,200
But put simply is the idea that 
there are unique parts of human 

328
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:37,100
beings that have unique Ali-A 
and from which are valued 

329
00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:39,300
arrives. 
So it is a philosophical idea. 

330
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:43,700
If you like, because it is a 
value assumption about often 

331
00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:46,600
biological traits, but it hasn't
historically always had to be 

332
00:18:46,608 --> 00:18:49,600
biological trait. 
So, the soul, you know, the idea

333
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:54,000
of the unique Immortal, human 
soul would be an example of 

334
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:55,900
human exception, a list 
thinking. 

335
00:18:56,500 --> 00:19:00,500
But equally well, the idea that 
human beings the modern-day idea

336
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:05,400
they'd only human cognition has 
can have A full moral status 

337
00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:08,700
legally or philosophically as 
also a human exceptionalist 

338
00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:11,700
idea, but have obviously a very 
different character, you know, 

339
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:14,000
it's related to anthropocentrism
because I suppose 

340
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,200
anthropocentrism. 
So the idea that you know human 

341
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,700
beings not just at the center of
the world but are ultimately 

342
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:26,300
what matters and where meaning 
resides, you know, and therefore

343
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:30,000
we are justified in doing what 
we want or be taking priority in

344
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,800
certain dilemmas or situations 
or where that what As you know, 

345
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,300
follows from a human 
exceptionalist idea. 

346
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,600
So I guess you know that that's 
a relationship between the two. 

347
00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:47,300
Okay, that makes sense. 
I'm going to pose an objection 

348
00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:49,400
that you both address in the 
book /. 

349
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,200
I'm sure it's the most common 
thing that someone says to you 

350
00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:57,500
which is that appealing to our 
natural rather than exceptional,

351
00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:00,700
qualities is a risk reading. 
Your book actually reminded me 

352
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:02,100
of. 
Did you ever read Timothy 

353
00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:03,400
Snyder's? 
Black Earth? 

354
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,000
Have you read? 
W, I haven't done. 

355
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,700
I yeah, it's on the list to 
read. 

356
00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:10,000
I haven't read it. 
So you'll have to fill me in. 

357
00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:12,600
I thought it was really 
fascinating but he describes 

358
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,700
Hitler as a Zoological Anarchist
and and the basic sense that 

359
00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:19,200
it's the strong should rule the 
weak should submit. 

360
00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:22,000
Almost imagine it. 
As kind of like old-school. 

361
00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:25,100
The pejorative version of how we
view pre-christian or Pagan 

362
00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:30,600
society as being a dominated by 
Harem culture alpha males that 

363
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,400
Rising Above This sort of, I 
don't know our Base level 

364
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,500
nature, which doesn't always 
seem so good. 

365
00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:40,100
It seems almost a moral and 
self-interested. 

366
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,400
How do we become an animal 
without reverting to some of 

367
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,000
those behaviors that we think 
are are actually really bad and 

368
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,000
we should rise above. 
So this is so key. 

369
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,900
And to be honest, I mean this is
the stuff that I think very very

370
00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:59,200
deeply about and you know, I see
you're right writing for a 

371
00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:03,700
mainstream audience and it 
frustrates. 

372
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:08,300
To me that, you know, you're not
allowed to to really go deeply 

373
00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:10,700
into that. 
You mean, this is not just the 

374
00:21:10,700 --> 00:21:14,800
lifetime of one person's 
thought, but this is, this is 

375
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,200
the sort of thing that whole 
societies of thinkers, well, for

376
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,600
thousands of years, you know, 
these are really, really deep, 

377
00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:25,800
really, really complicated and 
gnarly questions about the 

378
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,200
meaning of life. 
And how good emerges in a 

379
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,500
seemingly amoral biological 
system. 

380
00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:36,800
Let's sew on Privia like I can't
even sew anything. 

381
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,600
I'm about to say is going to be 
ridiculously you know, baguette 

382
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:45,000
version of this and not in my 
thinking is incomplete on this, 

383
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,500
but I eat keeps me up, I think 
about it all the time but to 

384
00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:51,100
answer where I'm at now with 
that. 

385
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,400
So one of the things in the book
that is is not my idea of 

386
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,500
philosophically. 
It's an old idea is that this is

387
00:21:57,500 --> 00:21:58,800
the kind of naturalistic 
fallacy. 

388
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,100
So the idea that what we ought 
to do, you know, morally 

389
00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:04,500
speaking. 
So this is more our philosophy 

390
00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:10,100
cannot follow from how we find 
things in nature, and that's 

391
00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:14,900
primarily, you know, that, as a 
highfalutin way of pointing out 

392
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:19,700
the obvious, which Darwin was 
very acutely aware of, you know,

393
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:25,700
he understood that biological 
continuity was not just a threat

394
00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:31,300
to the idea of a creative 
intelligent designed universe 

395
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:37,400
that he grew up in but it A 
threat to our moral ideas that 

396
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,100
if we have real gradual 
continuity with everything 

397
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:46,800
around us then our moral systems
must have emerged from the same 

398
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,300
world in which lots of very 
horrible things happen like 

399
00:22:51,300 --> 00:22:56,400
parasites, like Predators like 
aggressive attacks. 

400
00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:59,900
You know, to get your own way of
one individual over another 

401
00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:02,500
rape. 
All of these sorts of things 

402
00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:06,200
that take place in. 
Nature that are the business of 

403
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:11,100
how individual organisms, try to
retain energy and survive. 

404
00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:15,000
It looks pretty, you know, its 
nature red in tooth and Claw. 

405
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,700
And you can understand that why 
we wanted to separate out our 

406
00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:21,400
idea of, of, of how our lives 
matter. 

407
00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:27,200
And our moral systems from that 
chaos, and the fear is that, if 

408
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,700
you start to tread back into our
to associate or align ourselves 

409
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:36,800
too much with that, The emerald 
nature of the world from which 

410
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,500
we came is that it threatens or 
undermines? 

411
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:46,100
I suppose what we might call not
at not just Society not just you

412
00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:49,900
know the ties that hold us 
together but the whole moral 

413
00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:56,700
project of human life, my 
response to that is you have to 

414
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,700
well I suppose my inclination as
an individual and as I think is 

415
00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:04,000
that you cannot build on a false
Ian. 

416
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:11,300
So it's no good Alta mately will
come of drawing a Line in the 

417
00:24:11,308 --> 00:24:14,400
Sand where no line exists. 
You have to fit. 

418
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,600
Look at your business. 
You have to face the reality. 

419
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,900
And then if you want good to 
emerge from that, you have to 

420
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:23,000
understand the conditions in 
which good emerges. 

421
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,800
So, for me, there's a, there's 
an example from the Holocaust 

422
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,400
that and I've done a lot of 
work, historically with 

423
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,600
conflict, in my earlier, life 
and works a lot with people. 

424
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,900
She who are survivors of and 
indeed soldiers in various 

425
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:39,400
different conflicts around the 
world and through time. 

426
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,300
And so I'm kind of across that 
sort of literature and also 

427
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:47,900
just, you know, the experiences 
and there's an anecdote of a 

428
00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:51,600
woman who is in one of the camps
and is Staffing. 

429
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:58,200
And there is a man beside her 
who is dying and is, you know, 

430
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,600
hours from death and she could 
take his food. 

431
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,100
At this stage, but she chooses 
not to. 

432
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:10,800
And she chooses not to because 
she understands that it's the 

433
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,400
choice that makes, you know, 
you're going back to your first 

434
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,300
question that that makes her 
human even though I think in 

435
00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:21,600
anybody's book, we would in. 
We were morally judge her, but 

436
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,300
she's been so dehumanized by her
situation. 

437
00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:26,800
And by, what's been done touched
had all power taken away from 

438
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,800
her, but she still has the power
of that kind of impulse control 

439
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:35,200
and, and that choice and also to
make that Choice according to 

440
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,400
her beliefs about who she's 
going to be. 

441
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,600
So in terms of building her 
sense of self and who she is and

442
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:46,700
that to me is a reminder of 
several things, it's a reminder 

443
00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:50,800
that it's not, it wasn't her 
spirituality that pushed her 

444
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,500
into that conclusion. 
It was her recognition that 

445
00:25:55,500 --> 00:25:57,800
fundamentally. 
What is remarkable about human 

446
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:03,600
beings is the behavioral choice 
that we have that derives from 

447
00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:07,900
Our moral sensibility. 
Now, I think that we have to 

448
00:26:07,900 --> 00:26:13,300
understand that is having 
emerged naturally, that is in, 

449
00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:16,600
is not just some abstract, it's 
actually about Behavior. 

450
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:22,800
She acts in a different way than
she might have acted, just 

451
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,800
purely, you know, to survive. 
She acts because of how she 

452
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,900
wants to remember herself 
because of who, how she wants to

453
00:26:31,908 --> 00:26:38,200
build her identity and who Wants
to be that is a very now we 

454
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,800
don't know because we have 
nowhere fish surviving humans or

455
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,600
you know, members of the homo 
lineage. 

456
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,700
It's possible that neanderthals 
and other human species might 

457
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:50,200
have shown this if they were 
still around, but we're an 

458
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,700
outlier. 
But that will have emerged 

459
00:26:52,700 --> 00:26:55,600
naturally that's a natural part.
So we can. 

460
00:26:55,900 --> 00:27:00,400
And it's that if we understand 
morality naturally, if we allow 

461
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:06,500
it to be something that, that is
Embodied and natural and animal 

462
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:10,500
that specific, you know, to us, 
that's our part of our adaptive 

463
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:14,900
Niche. 
It's how we come to be better 

464
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:18,900
people with one another and a 
lot of that is very cognitive. 

465
00:27:18,900 --> 00:27:24,100
If we accept that, then it 
allows us to for me, it allows 

466
00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:28,200
us to align ourselves with our 
animal reality. 

467
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,100
We don't need to abstract it. 
We don't need to separate it 

468
00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:33,000
out. 
We don't need to tell ourselves.

469
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,100
Stories, even though it is 
exceptional. 

470
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:39,100
We don't have to put the value 
on it in that kind of way. 

471
00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:42,800
We just recognize that that is 
how we flourish our moral 

472
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,200
capacity. 
And how we remember and 

473
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,600
understand ourselves as good 
beings is is are niches. 

474
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,700
It's our behavioral Niche, it's 
how we flourish. 

475
00:27:52,700 --> 00:27:57,000
And so that allows is never 
going to be a neat fit because 

476
00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:01,000
biology is not going to allow 
that but it's a pretty good fit.

477
00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:03,500
It's a pretty if you pay 
attention. 

478
00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:06,400
To it. 
I think it allows you to be a 

479
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,100
good animal if you like and 
prefer us to somehow marry those

480
00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:13,700
two things together. 
That's a comprehensive answer to

481
00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:16,800
a difficult question. 
And the Very way in which I 

482
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,800
asked it, I think smuggled in 
some Concepts that needed 

483
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,600
unpacking to. 
I, it's funny that upon 

484
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,800
reflection. 
I had smuggled in the idea that 

485
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,400
the natural biological state of 
human life. 

486
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,500
Is one of endless war against 
all Melville has a line of Moby.

487
00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:36,000
About the universal cannibalism 
of the sea. 

488
00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:39,300
And that's the world that I had 
imagined, but actually, there's 

489
00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:42,400
examples from nature of 
mutuality and commensalism that 

490
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,700
you've single out in your book. 
But there's also just countless 

491
00:28:45,900 --> 00:28:49,300
idea that I smuggled in is a 
liberal anthropology or an 

492
00:28:49,308 --> 00:28:53,500
anthropology of liberalism of a 
rational independent individual.

493
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:58,200
But in a more natural, or are 
quoted primitive State, there 

494
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,000
really wasn't an individual. 
That's a sort of modern creation

495
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,500
of the last couple hundred years
right before that. 

496
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:07,300
That we saw ourselves primarily 
as members of packs of groups of

497
00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:10,300
people that were working 
together in a sort of mutual 

498
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:14,400
mutualism being the operative. 
Maybe philosophy here that was 

499
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,100
happening. 
Is that it's an appropriate 

500
00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:17,900
reaction. 
Yeah, I don't know. 

501
00:29:18,500 --> 00:29:21,500
Again, I've mold this one. 
I don't we, you know, we can't 

502
00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:26,000
be sure of what the mental 
experience of people. 

503
00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:30,200
Hundreds, tens of thousands of 
years ago was like, my suspicion

504
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:36,400
is that once you have the Kind 
of cognition that we have that 

505
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,500
will have emerged, which is not 
to say we all have the same 

506
00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:41,500
cognition. 
I mean, I get a bit weary of 

507
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:47,100
that, you know, I assume I baked
variation into all of my 

508
00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:49,600
thinking so I'm assuming that, 
you know, when you're talking 

509
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,800
about we or that we have this 
and we have that that, you know,

510
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,800
there is obviously variation 
within that assumed but you 

511
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,200
know, nonetheless human beings 
are species. 

512
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:05,300
Certainly has and likely other 
members of Other hominids have 

513
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,300
had a particular kind of 
cognitive capacities and 

514
00:30:10,300 --> 00:30:13,400
behavioral capacities. 
That are very general, very 

515
00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:17,200
adaptable and involved. 
Subjectivity my suspicion is it.

516
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:22,000
As soon as you have that 
regardless of what cultural, you

517
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,600
know, whether you've got a 
collectivist culture at work, or

518
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,500
whether you've got a more 
individualistic culture at work,

519
00:30:28,700 --> 00:30:33,000
you're still always going to 
have individual thought. 

520
00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:40,700
Chain and Rebellion at work, you
are still going to have moments 

521
00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:44,900
when we're not a super organism.
And to me, we really don't look 

522
00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:47,100
like a superorganism not 
cognitively. 

523
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:50,000
We might behave like that 
because we are capable of 

524
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:54,400
extraordinary acts of 
collaboration and cooperation, 

525
00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:58,300
you know, into the millions of 
us, which is amazing. 

526
00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:01,400
And does almost looks super 
organism it, but I don't think 

527
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,200
so. 
I think edit cognitive level. 

528
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,200
We're off. 
An individually rebelling all 

529
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,500
the time against, you know, and 
it's slightly stressful to be in

530
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:12,000
social groups. 
It's slightly stressful to have 

531
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,800
to suppress, emotions, and 
feelings, and needs, and 

532
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,500
desires, and impulses. 
It's not some happy clappy 

533
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:21,900
togetherness, no matter what 
group you're in. 

534
00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:25,900
And so, yeah. 
And, you know, people in small 

535
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,500
hunter-gatherer, communities 
have affairs, there are sexual 

536
00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:32,700
tensions and flare-ups, and all 
sorts of stuff that goes on. 

537
00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:36,900
So, And I suspect that we'll 
have been there always from the 

538
00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:41,300
moment that you have any kind of
really strong subjectivity at 

539
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:43,000
work. 
So yeah. 

540
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,500
I don't know about that. 
I know I think it's a little bit

541
00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:50,200
Messier through history and now 
I would be my instinct. 

542
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:55,300
Wow, I respect that answer so 
much because it's certainly way 

543
00:31:55,300 --> 00:31:57,600
easier to sell a book if you 
probably just have a 

544
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,100
straightforward opinion on. 
Yes the laps Aryan moment was 

545
00:32:01,100 --> 00:32:04,900
mind-body dualism and a liberal.
Anthropology of the says, you 

546
00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:08,000
know, is self-actualize 
independent individual, you're 

547
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,000
saying? 
Yeah, I don't know. 

548
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,000
Actually the old ways of doing 
things we're not really that 

549
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,600
simple either in there were 
tensions. 

550
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:16,500
Yeah. 
You know what to eat in some 

551
00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:18,600
ways? 
I see ice to only talking to my 

552
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:25,900
mom about this today because I 
make my work through, you know, 

553
00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:29,400
through writing and, you know, 
obviously there's a pressure on 

554
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,500
you to produce content that will
sell in. 

555
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:38,400
Which numbers and simplified 
messages, of course, sell more 

556
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,000
easily. 
As do, you know subjects that 

557
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,200
allow people to sort of, either 
get feel that they've got kind 

558
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,400
of handle on something very 
quickly or that are kind of just

559
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,900
is, you know, appealing to a 
large numbers and wish I could, 

560
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:57,400
you know, financially, I guess 
so wish and probably in terms of

561
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,900
status and reputation. 
I wish I could be that kind of 

562
00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:03,500
person, but I'm afraid. 
I am absolutely. 

563
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:09,000
And Hunter of the truth. 
Seeker treasure seeker of what 

564
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,100
is actually going on. 
I mean, and I, right to engage 

565
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,100
with other people, other 
thinking, people of any kind of 

566
00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:20,900
any, you know, just any 
inquiring mind and because I 

567
00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:23,100
write also, because it's happy 
is where, I think. 

568
00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:27,700
I remember the poet Ted Hughes 
talked about his poems, as 

569
00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:32,800
subsidiary brains, they were 
these little external brain 

570
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,100
Extinction. 
He would do his thinking it's 

571
00:33:35,100 --> 00:33:39,300
very much that way for me and I 
see them as you know then 

572
00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:42,800
connecting so that we could 
become a kind of Super Brain 

573
00:33:42,900 --> 00:33:45,000
with readers and we're all 
thinking through these things 

574
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,200
together for me you haven't 
thought hard enough. 

575
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,100
If you are offering some your 
great story that's like 

576
00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:57,200
absolutely straightforward or 
that, you know, it and it's seen

577
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,400
as a it seen as a failing. 
That's such a sorrow to me that 

578
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,900
we think that someone not 
providing all the answers Azure.

579
00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:07,200
Not providing the one Theory or 
whatever is seen as a failing 

580
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,199
for me. 
That's that's the beginnings of 

581
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:12,800
thought, you know, you should be
asking questions and then you 

582
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,699
should be working out how you 
can ask better questions and 

583
00:34:16,699 --> 00:34:20,199
leave behind the questions. 
You know, were too simple were 

584
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,600
too kind of, you know. 
But that is sadly, it's not it's

585
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,000
not the way commercial 
publishing works but you know, 

586
00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:28,699
it is the beginnings of thought,
I think. 

587
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,400
You can't see me right now but 
I'm grinning like a fool. 

588
00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:37,000
I I love that and that's what we
try to do on the podcast to. 

589
00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:41,199
I don't know that I have a set 
of finite answers that I could 

590
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:44,500
discreetly present to someone to
solve all the world's problems 

591
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,000
your book absolutely reads like 
this to one of the blurbs on 

592
00:34:48,100 --> 00:34:50,300
described it as lyrical. 
And I absolutely think that's 

593
00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:53,800
the case. 
It has this beautiful flowing 

594
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:58,800
kind of expansive question, 
presenting and engagement but it

595
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,100
doesn't strike. 
A strictly linear in its 

596
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:03,600
presentation. 
Either, it almost feels like 

597
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,300
there is a strong poetic kind of
quality to it. 

598
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,600
And it did make me. 
Think am I reading too much into

599
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,300
that? 
Or is that how you see your work

600
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:15,100
as well? 
Well, I'm not, I'm never doing 

601
00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:19,800
anything by Design in that kind 
of way in the end. 

602
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,500
So, my first book that I wrote 
called on extinction, which was 

603
00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:28,300
really a exploration of the 
young person, General Zhang when

604
00:35:28,300 --> 00:35:33,200
I wrote it and it was A Young 
Person's sort of squaring up to 

605
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,900
really how we derived at this 
point where we have such a. 

606
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,700
And when I say we, I just mean, 
you know, broadly human 

607
00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:44,600
civilization, you know, is 
endangering. 

608
00:35:44,900 --> 00:35:49,400
The other systems, is how we've 
ended up with climate change, 

609
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,400
biodiversity crisis? 
What were their stages that took

610
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,100
us there? 
And I looked very much from a 

611
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,600
biocultural and Industrial 
Extinction. 

612
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,500
So so I used Extinction Ring 
poetically. 

613
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,900
You know, this wasn't some sort 
of category ever. 

614
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:09,100
I was actually just using trying
to use that idea that concept of

615
00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:12,600
Extinction. 
Very broadly to look at the 

616
00:36:12,900 --> 00:36:17,700
cultural industrial and 
intellectual and historical 

617
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:22,000
forces that had thought of that 
were in the background to this 

618
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,400
point that we'd arrived at and 
really is in many ways. 

619
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,600
It's a story of the Industrial 
Revolution, what led up to that 

620
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,100
and the consequence This is that
flowed from it in some ways, but

621
00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:36,000
it's also the kind of dominant 
industrial societies came to 

622
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,300
think about what it is to be 
human, and what was, what was 

623
00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:42,100
right and wrong and what was 
justified, and what we should be

624
00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:46,600
pursuing and investing in in our
societies, which, you know, 

625
00:36:46,607 --> 00:36:49,900
obviously still resonates now. 
But I did it in this way, where 

626
00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:53,700
that was actually much more 
poetic than in this. 

627
00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:57,200
I trained in literature and 
language, English, literature, 

628
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,400
and language and I regionally 
That I would just work in the 

629
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:01,900
creative arts. 
I actually still work in the 

630
00:37:01,908 --> 00:37:04,700
creative arts. 
Now more In classical music as a

631
00:37:04,707 --> 00:37:07,700
librettist. 
And I started you know 

632
00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:10,800
publishing poetry when I was 
young and I still have a big 

633
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,900
part of me that works with 
artists and in the creative arts

634
00:37:13,900 --> 00:37:17,200
and I totally get that world. 
But right from the get-go I was 

635
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:22,900
always asking I guess historical
and natural history and 

636
00:37:22,900 --> 00:37:25,900
philosophical questions that I 
couldn't simply answer 

637
00:37:25,900 --> 00:37:28,200
artistically. 
That I actually needed to shift 

638
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,000
into nonfiction Ian and research
to be able to answer 

639
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,800
satisfactorily for me. 
Maybe that's my weakness because

640
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,500
as an artist a bit that was 
where I needed to go. 

641
00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:40,300
So I've had those two things 
running in tandem, but because 

642
00:37:40,300 --> 00:37:43,400
they touched more closely at the
time when I wrote that book, 

643
00:37:43,500 --> 00:37:47,100
there's a lot of deliberate. 
If people pay attention, there's

644
00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:50,900
a lot of recurring imagery which
is you know very metaphorical 

645
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:56,400
and kind of echoing things that 
I tried to create really is a 

646
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:01,100
way in the way that a poem does 
to I need to provide stocking 

647
00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:05,600
points for people to think 
because I want my book to 

648
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,100
provide little their lighting, 
little churches. 

649
00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:12,600
If you like little chapels that 
I want people to come in to, not

650
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,700
to be told but to think and to 
question the world around them. 

651
00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:20,000
And so I was trying to do that 
quite deliberately in that first

652
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,800
book but I don't know how 
successful that was truth. 

653
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,400
Be told in the second book in, 
how to be animal, I probably 

654
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,400
just have that kind of Ethically
in me to a certain extent that, 

655
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,800
you know, my use of language 
comes from that. 

656
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,100
So it does have probably 
automatically have a little bit 

657
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:42,300
of a poetical and kind of a for 
a stick aspects to it. 

658
00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:45,600
That that is just my style. 
Now that I probably just you 

659
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,600
know do without thinking but 
it's much more straightforward 

660
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,000
in a lot of ways. 
And the reason it's not linear 

661
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:58,200
is ultimately because I'm trying
to float above these very big 

662
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,900
topics and very big. 
Time spans to give people a 

663
00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:05,700
sense of how all of these things
are coming together to affect 

664
00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:07,600
us. 
So it's a bit birds like, I 

665
00:39:07,607 --> 00:39:11,800
guess in that way and that's how
you getting this these spans of 

666
00:39:12,100 --> 00:39:15,100
time and Topic in any given 
chapter. 

667
00:39:15,100 --> 00:39:19,300
So but I think the style is 
probably maybe slightly more, 

668
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,000
you know I guess authorial in 
some ways than my first book was

669
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,800
and certainly there's much less 
sort of personal essay and 

670
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,700
narrative in it partly because I
I feel that the ideas are a bit,

671
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:33,000
you know, I'm genuinely 
concerned. 

672
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,600
So, so I felt like I had to be 
pretty straight with people as 

673
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,000
much as possible. 
Well, I think it's a necessary 

674
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,800
approach for writing a big 
history in the capitalized, 

675
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,700
like, will Durant kind of of way
where if you are going to write 

676
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:54,900
something about thousands of 
years or more of human history, 

677
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,600
there's a real risk that you 
just find the one angle, the one

678
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,400
acts you want, Ryan throughout I
just read a history of food like

679
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:03,900
that. 
You actually have a number of 

680
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:06,600
moments where you say, you'll 
present a case that someone has 

681
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,400
made and say you don't have to 
buy that or you don't have to 

682
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,100
you may or may not accept that 
or something like that. 

683
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,200
Yeah that is not cause I love 
it. 

684
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,300
So I don't mean to harp on it 
too much but I wish more people 

685
00:40:17,300 --> 00:40:19,800
could think and write like that 
because I connect with that 

686
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,500
strong, like is what I try to do
here. 

687
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,800
Not that Pat myself on the back 
too much, but nobody is really 

688
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,000
important for. 
It is something that greatly 

689
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,600
concerns me about. 
The messaging around 

690
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,500
sustainability around, climate 
change around, invite all 

691
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:38,400
environmental issues, you know, 
I'm obviously quite immersed 

692
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,900
because I do work in ethics as 
well. 

693
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,000
So, I do have a practical end to
my working life. 

694
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:50,100
Very engaged in deliberative 
democracy in bioethics, you 

695
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:53,600
know, and I'm active in those 
areas and increasingly at the 

696
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,800
moment. 
Active in representation of 

697
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,600
non-human animals, for instance,
procedural, Justice, Those sorts

698
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,000
of things. 
So there is a practical element 

699
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:08,400
to my life as well beyond just 
writing and so I hear you know 

700
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,500
consequently I'm kind of really 
embedded in the environmentalist

701
00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:15,000
movement and I have a lots of 
colleagues who who are engaged 

702
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,700
in all of this and always my 
worry and it's the same with 

703
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,600
with working in bioethics. 
So for any listeners who don't 

704
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,200
necessarily know what bioethics 
is bioethics is basically he's 

705
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,700
not he's basically working out 
the ethics that have emerged 

706
00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:29,700
from the life. 
Sciences. 

707
00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:33,600
So it's keyed, for instance, to 
a pandemic, you know, it's a lot

708
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,100
about what happens, you know, 
what, should happen in medical 

709
00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:39,000
context. 
For instance, how we should do a

710
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,900
genome editing crispr, all of 
those sorts of things are all 

711
00:41:41,900 --> 00:41:44,300
in, you know, in the kind of 
purview of bioethics. 

712
00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:48,600
But even in that sort of field, 
you're very rarely allowed to go

713
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,200
back to First principles and to 
work your arguments out again or

714
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,000
to have hesitation because it 
directly relates to policy. 

715
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,300
Setting policy makers or 
decision maker Is one a simple 

716
00:42:00,300 --> 00:42:02,900
clean answer? 
They want to be told what to do,

717
00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:06,600
and why and then they'll, you 
know, Churn it through their 

718
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,100
political, kind of, you know, 
all their stakeholders, or 

719
00:42:10,100 --> 00:42:13,800
whatever that, you know, their 
real world scenario, and it will

720
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,900
come out in some slightly 
mangled version. 

721
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:18,800
But but ultimately, that's 
what's going on in the 

722
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,300
decision-making process. 
But my inclination of course is 

723
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:26,200
to stop and to think if we are 
trying to save a gorilla, we 

724
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,600
need to understand why a gorilla
matters. 

725
00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:32,700
We need to understand how we 
need to understand what they 

726
00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:36,800
might be communicating to us. 
We need to think about our 

727
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,300
history of ideas. 
We need to think about first 

728
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:43,800
principles and reasoning again. 
These are slow processes of 

729
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,800
thought and deliberation that 
are often very messy and often 

730
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,200
very difficult to read them out.
And people are kind of allergic 

731
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,600
to that. 
But for me, you know, when it 

732
00:42:53,607 --> 00:42:59,000
comes to climate change, let's 
say you need to understand why 

733
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,100
Things matter in any given 
situation. 

734
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:07,400
And then you need to understand 
how to think critically about it

735
00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:11,500
that sort of which is very much 
within the humanities, broadly 

736
00:43:11,500 --> 00:43:14,200
that sort of thinking has been 
pushed to the sidelines. 

737
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,800
And I don't think it can stay in
the sidelines for much longer 

738
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,100
because ultimately we can't just
rely on the science. 

739
00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:25,400
The science tells us the best 
version available at the time 

740
00:43:25,500 --> 00:43:28,800
with the best data you have 
available at the time of what is

741
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,400
happening. 
Being out and what might happen 

742
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,200
in the future but to understand 
what we should do and how we 

743
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,700
should evaluate that data, that 
is the work of philosophy and we

744
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:43,300
can't continue to think it's 
just the whims of opinion or it 

745
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:47,800
is just the political kind of, 
or cultural point of view of any

746
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,800
moment in time or any 
particular, you know, party that

747
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,800
happens to be in power. 
These are, you know, difficult 

748
00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:58,100
areas of reasoning that require 
time and deliberation, and I 

749
00:43:58,100 --> 00:44:01,600
feel weak. 
Absolutely need to do those and 

750
00:44:01,900 --> 00:44:06,600
that requires accepting 
uncertainty and admitting doubt.

751
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,300
And that's what, you know, a lot
of people just do not want to 

752
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:12,500
do, but, you know, yeah, I'm all
about that. 

753
00:44:13,300 --> 00:44:16,600
I think that's the important 
work we need to do but it is, 

754
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,700
you know, it's, it's difficult. 
I have a question for you 

755
00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:24,000
Melanie. 
And it's a strange one to ask 

756
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,600
without it sounding like an 
implied threat, right? 

757
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,100
Oh God. 
Yeah, amazing preface. 

758
00:44:31,100 --> 00:44:33,500
I know. 
Do you want to die? 

759
00:44:34,300 --> 00:44:36,800
How do I say in a tone? 
That doesn't communicate it like

760
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,300
a threat. 
Do you wish do you wish to die? 

761
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:42,600
That's an interesting question. 
Nobody's lost me that? 

762
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,800
Well dumb for asking that. 
Yeah, I mean we were just 

763
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:51,400
talking about climate change and
you know, why does it matter to 

764
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,000
us? 
Why does Extinction matter to 

765
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,100
us? 
Why do we not want to be 

766
00:44:55,100 --> 00:44:56,300
animals? 
All of these things that I'm 

767
00:44:56,300 --> 00:44:59,500
talking about? 
You know, death is in the Ground

768
00:44:59,500 --> 00:45:05,000
to all of them and the value of 
Life, what a good life is in, 

769
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:10,400
what, how long a life should be,
how, you know, how valuable an 

770
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,000
individual or, you know, a set 
of lives are all of these sorts 

771
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,600
of things. 
Again, these are things people 

772
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,400
push from you and don't want to 
talk about. 

773
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,800
And think about, I had to really
square up to the to mortality a 

774
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,000
lot in this book. 
One of the reasons for that is 

775
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,600
because of course, the appeal of
the idea that We're not really 

776
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,100
animals or that we are somehow 
this have this exceptional sort 

777
00:45:33,100 --> 00:45:38,200
of separate part of us. 
It is buffers us from our fear 

778
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,900
of death. 
One of the reasons we don't like

779
00:45:41,900 --> 00:45:46,800
to look at death very much in 
with all sorts of ways, that 

780
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:52,000
human beings hide death. 
We hide the death that we create

781
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,000
through predation because we 
continue. 

782
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,100
We've always been predators and 
we continue to be Predators. 

783
00:45:57,100 --> 00:45:59,000
We just do that in organized 
way. 

784
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,400
Now in farms and factory farms 
and so forth. 

785
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,500
But that's, you know, we're 
still obviously, that's what it 

786
00:46:05,500 --> 00:46:09,200
is in essence biologically, you 
know, not absolutely 

787
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:10,700
conceptually but that is what it
is. 

788
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,000
And we hide all of that away 
from ourselves and we hide our 

789
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,900
own deaths away from ourselves 
and we, you know, we really got 

790
00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:20,100
to a stage that's different 
across different cultures. 

791
00:46:20,100 --> 00:46:25,400
Of course, but all human beings 
do battle with the idea that we 

792
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,900
are mortal. 
And the idea that human Deities 

793
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,300
will eventually die. 
The idea that the human Journey 

794
00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:37,500
will eventually end in 
extinction is one of the main 

795
00:46:37,900 --> 00:46:42,300
reasons that we are trying to 
avoid the climate disruption. 

796
00:46:42,300 --> 00:46:45,400
We're trying to stay alive for 
as long as possible, but it's 

797
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,300
also, one of the reasons that we
find it, very frightening to 

798
00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:53,300
accept that human civilizations 
will at some point in time, 

799
00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:56,200
eventually end that life on 
Earth will at some point in 

800
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,300
time, eventually end, which it 
will we I'm not really an 

801
00:47:00,300 --> 00:47:03,400
absolute assault to what it is 
to mean. 

802
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:09,100
Something that to me, is 
something that we must all as 

803
00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:13,300
individuals at some point in 
time, if we can come to terms 

804
00:47:13,300 --> 00:47:17,900
with, I think morally, we need 
to have better conversations 

805
00:47:17,900 --> 00:47:20,500
about it. 
I personally don't find the fact

806
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:24,100
that human civilization will end
threatening to the moral 

807
00:47:24,100 --> 00:47:28,300
business of life in the here. 
And now, you know, I've said 

808
00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:31,400
this in other discussions that 
I've had since this book came 

809
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:36,500
out so morality, you know, I 
don't think morality is 

810
00:47:36,500 --> 00:47:39,500
threatened by, you know, it 
reality happens that the 

811
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:41,600
individual scale it, that's 
where we should pay our 

812
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,300
attention. 
And I don't think that the 

813
00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:48,300
meaning of Our Lives has to be 
threatened by the fact that 

814
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,000
eventually the human species 
will likely die out. 

815
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,400
So I think we still have to do 
the busy, you know, even if that

816
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,000
would, we understand that about 
where we're going and it is some

817
00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:02,700
Time in the future that doesn't 
smell get-out-of-jail-free card.

818
00:48:02,700 --> 00:48:05,700
You know, it doesn't, it doesn't
mean you can, you can just 

819
00:48:05,700 --> 00:48:11,500
tumble into nihilism and ignore 
the moral, you know, realities 

820
00:48:11,500 --> 00:48:13,200
of the here and now in your 
lives. 

821
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,700
And so that's one aspect of 
death that I respond to. 

822
00:48:16,700 --> 00:48:19,900
And so if you ask me that 
question, do I mind the human 

823
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,900
that I will die? 
And that our species will die 

824
00:48:22,900 --> 00:48:24,100
out? 
No, no I don't. 

825
00:48:24,100 --> 00:48:30,500
I understand that life is finite
and at every scale, Gail that 

826
00:48:30,500 --> 00:48:35,800
the universe is finite that the 
likely, you know, we don't quite

827
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,200
know, of course, but likely 
finite, it's certainly. 

828
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,400
The Earth is. 
We do know that certainly, the 

829
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:47,400
sun is finite and our lives are 
finite and I think it's really 

830
00:48:47,700 --> 00:48:49,900
frightening. 
It's really deeply frightening. 

831
00:48:49,900 --> 00:48:52,700
I have small children. 
They when the idea of death 

832
00:48:52,700 --> 00:48:55,800
drops into their minds, you know
as a parent you want to protect 

833
00:48:55,800 --> 00:49:01,300
them from its you know, I I kind
of kicker of anxiety when I can 

834
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:04,900
see it Dawning on them and I 
know they're going to ask me and

835
00:49:04,900 --> 00:49:07,000
I know they're going to ask me 
if I'm going to die. 

836
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,900
And if nannies going to die and 
of Grant is going to die. 

837
00:49:09,900 --> 00:49:14,200
And if you know and if they are 
going to die and you can see the

838
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,400
fear, you know, they are growing
up in a household where we don't

839
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,200
have a religion, so, you know, 
they don't have that buffering 

840
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,800
them at all. 
Either my kids are deeply 

841
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:28,200
immersed in Natural History. 
My husband's an ecologist and 

842
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,100
biologists. 
And you know, I work on that 

843
00:49:30,100 --> 00:49:32,600
true history so that they're 
totally in nature all the time 

844
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,500
and they don't they see the 
Stope grabbing the baby rabbit, 

845
00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:37,700
they know what's going to 
happen. 

846
00:49:37,700 --> 00:49:40,700
You know, they understand all of
this and it is frightening. 

847
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,600
And so I have really had to 
square up to that myself and 

848
00:49:44,700 --> 00:49:47,800
accept that. 
My life is finite and to do my 

849
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,900
very, very best in the time that
I'm here. 

850
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,400
And I've tried to encourage my 
children, not to be frightened 

851
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,400
of death, not to seek it, but 
not to be frightened of it. 

852
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,900
I was very frightened of death 
as a child. 

853
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,400
But now I do, I'm not frightened
to death in the way that I was, 

854
00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:06,900
it's simply because I accept 
that it is how it has to be. 

855
00:50:06,900 --> 00:50:10,500
That, that is the nature of the 
way, life emerges. 

856
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:16,000
And the, I don't think it's the 
right path to fight that if we 

857
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,400
were, maybe you think this is a 
difference of degree and maybe 

858
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,400
you think it's a difference of 
kind, but if we were able to 

859
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,800
live, you know, Old Testament 
Patriarchs tile and live 

860
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,200
hundreds of years or or maybe 
just Be functionally dancing. 

861
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,100
Lots of children. 
Yeah, if you still want to start

862
00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:38,500
by getting how do you stop, 
should we not be pursuing 

863
00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:41,400
something like that? 
What's the difference between 

864
00:50:41,700 --> 00:50:44,000
eliminating polio or something 
like that? 

865
00:50:44,300 --> 00:50:47,500
And then having life extension, 
I think there's a difference 

866
00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:51,900
between that and uploading your 
Consciousness into a machine. 

867
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,200
I'm not really sure where it is.
Yeah, it's very difficult. 

868
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,500
And this is another example, of 
the fact that lazy easy 

869
00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:02,500
thinking, About moral dilemmas 
is, you know, we should be wary 

870
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:05,300
of them because that's a really 
good example of the fact that 

871
00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:09,800
where is the line? 
Is there a line anywhere? 

872
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:14,400
Where we move from the moral 
imperative, that many people 

873
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:19,100
would see to eliminate the 
diseases that cause suffering to

874
00:51:19,100 --> 00:51:23,400
cure cancer to, you know, extend
life. 

875
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,200
It's very very recent that we've
arrived at the point where we 

876
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,300
think our life expectancy, See 
we even imagine me. 

877
00:51:30,300 --> 00:51:34,400
Just think about the words. 
Life expectancy we now come into

878
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,800
the world and we expect a 
certain amount of time, you 

879
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:39,200
know. 
It isn't that extraordinary 

880
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,400
Korean title, this is very 
recent, I mean, he's just it's 

881
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,100
very much this moment because, 
you know, most people came into 

882
00:51:47,100 --> 00:51:51,200
the world and death was really 
everywhere and there was a huge 

883
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,400
amount and that's not like they 
just thought that was fine. 

884
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,100
You know, as usual amount of 
suffering, Darwin is an example 

885
00:51:56,100 --> 00:52:00,600
of that who really suffered when
his child Was Annie died. 

886
00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:04,800
You know, his that he sort of 
admitted was his favorite and 

887
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:10,000
really struggled with that. 
So even even people born, you 

888
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,700
know, in Generations, where 
there was a lot of death that, 

889
00:52:12,700 --> 00:52:15,300
you know, mothers died, in 
childbirth and all sorts of 

890
00:52:15,308 --> 00:52:16,900
things are in. 
We didn't have anywhere near the

891
00:52:16,900 --> 00:52:19,100
kind of sophistication. 
We have now, people never 

892
00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:22,700
accepted death or just sort of 
didn't care when they buried 

893
00:52:22,700 --> 00:52:24,600
their babies, of course, they 
didn't. 

894
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,800
And there is a moral imperative,
you know, if you can, as the 

895
00:52:28,900 --> 00:52:32,300
dentist eliminate some awful 
genetic disease. 

896
00:52:32,300 --> 00:52:34,300
We have crispr now. 
And that's, you know, the big 

897
00:52:34,300 --> 00:52:38,600
kind of hope is that these sorts
of new genetic Technologies. 

898
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:42,700
Might, you know, really get at 
some of these very difficult to 

899
00:52:42,700 --> 00:52:46,900
cure or treat rare sort of 
genetic disorders. 

900
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:50,000
For instance, why would you not 
be trying to do that? 

901
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,500
And obviously, people are weird 
looking for Universal. 

902
00:52:52,500 --> 00:52:54,700
Flu vaccines. 
We're looking for, we're 

903
00:52:54,700 --> 00:52:56,800
constant. 
And this is strong moral 

904
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,700
imperative to do that because we
don't want to And because we 

905
00:52:59,700 --> 00:53:04,200
want to maximize our opportunity
to flourish and it feels morally

906
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,600
bankrupt to not want to continue
doing that. 

907
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,200
But at what point in time does 
that become unsustainable who 

908
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:15,200
has to pay the price for that 
because the realities of the 

909
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,400
cake, you know, chaotic nature 
of how life emerges including 

910
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:23,900
human life is that you can't 
just have lots and lots of 

911
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,800
organisms living Forever Without
there being a cost. 

912
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:33,500
So that Cost could be other 
species that cost could be you 

913
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:36,900
know, resources that cost could 
then start to be future 

914
00:53:36,900 --> 00:53:39,400
Generations. 
Who haven't been born yet but 

915
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:43,600
who are not going to you know, 
that, you know that bit of extra

916
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,300
10 years of extra life. 
For a few Generations back is 

917
00:53:47,300 --> 00:53:51,600
going to then be paid for in the
flourishing of some generations.

918
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:56,300
If you know, it's very messy, 
it's very difficult to be sure. 

919
00:53:56,500 --> 00:54:01,400
So I think the easy response to 
that really To think about the 

920
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:06,400
kind of the clearer situations 
where we should be cautious. 

921
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:11,300
So for instance, if you're 
developing a drug that might 

922
00:54:11,300 --> 00:54:16,500
extend life, let's say well how 
does that drug have to get 

923
00:54:16,500 --> 00:54:18,800
developed? 
You know, does it mean that we 

924
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,300
have to do huge amounts of 
animal testing? 

925
00:54:20,300 --> 00:54:24,900
For instance, is that justified?
Does it mean that we have to 

926
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:26,900
mine? 
You know, a certain kind of 

927
00:54:27,100 --> 00:54:28,800
chemical or something? 
Is that adjust? 

928
00:54:28,900 --> 00:54:30,800
Defied. 
Does it mean that we you know 

929
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:35,300
it's so to look at the discrete 
ethical level can sometimes just

930
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,200
help in it. 
But I think also, are you doing 

931
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,100
it? 
Because you want us to live 

932
00:54:41,100 --> 00:54:46,100
forever and is that a reasonable
end goal? 

933
00:54:46,300 --> 00:54:49,500
Again, you can put apply some 
scrutiny better so you can stop 

934
00:54:49,500 --> 00:54:53,100
and think what is that? 
End goal a good goal to have. 

935
00:54:53,100 --> 00:54:57,100
My own feeling is it's not a 
realistic goal to have and 

936
00:54:57,100 --> 00:55:00,800
therefore it's dangerous too. 
Steer it and we will be better, 

937
00:55:00,900 --> 00:55:05,600
applying our technology and 
intelligence to more realistic, 

938
00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:08,800
you know, and positive goals in 
the here and now. 

939
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,600
But, you know, there's been a 
lot of people hell-bent on 

940
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,000
getting rid of death. 
That's for sure if they can. 

941
00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:20,300
I think those are all fine. 
Nuances to explore one perhaps 

942
00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:24,300
more elliptical response. 
I've heard came from an Alan 

943
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:27,400
Watts lecture. 
I've heard, I think it's 

944
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:29,700
something called like on 
becoming I'm nothing. 

945
00:55:29,700 --> 00:55:31,300
I don't know. 
He has so many thing called 

946
00:55:31,300 --> 00:55:34,500
things like that. 
So, yeah, it's something within 

947
00:55:34,500 --> 00:55:39,600
that genre of his butt about how
important Youth and birth is to 

948
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,600
curiosity. 
And how we sort of lose the 

949
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,300
natural sense of wonder, it's 
hard for me to even say this 

950
00:55:45,300 --> 00:55:48,500
without kind of choking up a 
little bit but that's just 

951
00:55:48,500 --> 00:55:51,200
listen to Alan Watson General. 
He pushes my buttons in this 

952
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,400
kind of way maybe for you too. 
Yeah, yeah. 

953
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,200
But I think if we lost that, 
would we not had just have 

954
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:57,800
thousand-year-old? 
People have been like, I've seen

955
00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:59,800
everything I've done everything.
I'm still going because I'm 

956
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,600
scared of dying and I've not 
made peace with my having a body

957
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:05,900
that was that was God, I guess, 
I guess that's what I mean by an

958
00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:10,200
unrealistic goal that it derives
from a fundamental 

959
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:14,500
misunderstanding about where 
we're actually deriving pleasure

960
00:56:14,500 --> 00:56:19,100
and meaning from and it's 
deriving from fear, fear is 

961
00:56:19,107 --> 00:56:21,800
really not a good motivator for 
human beings. 

962
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,200
As a general rule, it tends to 
lead us astray. 

963
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,200
I know, we focus on Greed. 
We focus on all of these sorts 

964
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,300
of things would be better if we 
We pay more attention to how 

965
00:56:30,300 --> 00:56:34,700
fear drives us and trying to 
sort of ameliorate that at the 

966
00:56:34,700 --> 00:56:39,500
point of Their Fear. 
There's so much in the 

967
00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:44,700
immortalization kind of 
obsession that is it derives 

968
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:49,300
from misunderstanding. 
So one of them would be how do 

969
00:56:49,300 --> 00:56:51,600
human beings become 
well-rounded. 

970
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:56,300
Well mostly a really crucial 
phase is not 23 years. 

971
00:56:56,300 --> 00:57:02,200
So the environment in the womb, 
Nurturing of the of the mother 

972
00:57:02,700 --> 00:57:06,800
and then after the in, that's 
not too. 

973
00:57:06,900 --> 00:57:10,400
I'm very aware of not being by a
conservative in a way that is 

974
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:14,200
that you know, deniers people 
who can't have children in the 

975
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:15,900
conventional way. 
I understand all of that but 

976
00:57:15,900 --> 00:57:18,500
this is her. 
Most children are born and 

977
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,800
biologically. 
We have to focus on what is 

978
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,700
maximum sort of flourishing for 
us that it comes to what we are 

979
00:57:26,700 --> 00:57:30,400
adapted for. 
Which is not to say that the 

980
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,100
natural path is best in any kind
of simplistic way that it means 

981
00:57:34,100 --> 00:57:39,900
you can't ignore it. 
So most people will come to life

982
00:57:39,900 --> 00:57:43,600
in their mother's room and 
therefore that environment is 

983
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,600
really important and we know 
this. 

984
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,000
Now we have so much evidence and
data for this. 

985
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:52,500
Now we know it's really crucial 
that we try to make sure that 

986
00:57:52,500 --> 00:57:55,600
mothers are well supported that,
that environment is healthy 

987
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:58,400
right from the get-go. 
We then have to try it, so 

988
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,300
stress. 
I wasn't too bad, all of that, 

989
00:58:00,300 --> 00:58:03,100
sort of thing. 
Health is good food is good etc 

990
00:58:03,100 --> 00:58:05,400
etc. 
That they're being looked after 

991
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,500
and then that the notch of three
years, the amount of touched 

992
00:58:08,500 --> 00:58:12,100
children receive the amount of, 
you know, closeness and 

993
00:58:12,100 --> 00:58:16,700
proximity to primary caregivers 
most often mother's again. 

994
00:58:16,700 --> 00:58:19,000
But you know, just making sure 
that whole environment. 

995
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,300
And that whole network of 
caregivers is supported and that

996
00:58:22,300 --> 00:58:25,300
the child is touched and valued 
right from the get-go. 

997
00:58:25,500 --> 00:58:28,500
We know this has an effect on 
the whole bodies of, you know, 

998
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,800
Respond to this, our bodies 
respond and therefore, our 

999
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,900
building of identity and our 
resilience, our ability to cope 

1000
00:58:35,900 --> 00:58:39,100
with stress our ability to cope 
with fear our responses, to 

1001
00:58:39,100 --> 00:58:41,200
aggression are very affected by 
this year's. 

1002
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,900
There's a lot of plasticity, of 
course, you can undo some damage

1003
00:58:44,900 --> 00:58:48,300
if it's done in those times. 
And it's not all absolutely 

1004
00:58:48,300 --> 00:58:51,200
biologically deterministic, 
because if biology doesn't work 

1005
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,700
like that, it's not neat and 
deterministic but it's still 

1006
00:58:54,700 --> 00:58:57,300
again, it matters and getting 
that right matters. 

1007
00:58:57,300 --> 00:59:00,300
And we have to remember, That a 
lot of people who are trying to 

1008
00:59:00,300 --> 00:59:04,500
push this sort of live forever 
thing often, man, they're often 

1009
00:59:04,500 --> 00:59:08,400
men of a certain status and they
totally ignore what it would 

1010
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:12,400
mean for how we bring children 
into the world for the fact that

1011
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,000
how, you know, even learning 
mathematics is affected by our 

1012
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,500
body movements by gesture. 
It's not just a matter of 

1013
00:59:18,500 --> 00:59:21,300
staring at numbers on a page. 
It actually matters what we do 

1014
00:59:21,300 --> 00:59:23,500
with our bodies. 
It matters who's talking to us 

1015
00:59:23,500 --> 00:59:27,900
and have a showing us, you know,
we live, deeply embodied, lives 

1016
00:59:27,900 --> 00:59:31,000
our bodies man. 
Citrus profoundly, but to try 

1017
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,400
and simply live forever. 
You would really have to 

1018
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,000
industrialize all of that 
process, right from the 

1019
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:38,700
beginning, right from 
conception. 

1020
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:43,400
And that I do not think is that 
they're in Madness lies? 

1021
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,600
I do think. 
Yeah, I think that's a fine 

1022
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:48,700
place where we can start 
wrapping it up Melanie. 

1023
00:59:48,700 --> 00:59:51,700
I think we covered all of human 
history, the fear of death. 

1024
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:54,700
I think we've exhausted all 
these topics. 

1025
00:59:54,700 --> 00:59:57,800
Now, there's a lot more to cover
and if you like this 

1026
00:59:57,800 --> 00:59:59,500
conversation to do, Haven't we 
roast? 

1027
00:59:59,500 --> 01:00:02,000
It's all sorted? 
Yeah, I don't know if I can take

1028
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:03,600
credit. 
I think of much of its driving 

1029
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,500
from the simulation of your 
book, but I imagine someone's 

1030
01:00:06,500 --> 01:00:09,500
listening and they dug this, how
to be animal, a new history of 

1031
01:00:09,508 --> 01:00:12,100
what it means to be human, they 
would clearly enjoy that as 

1032
01:00:12,100 --> 01:00:13,700
well, right. 
I hope so. 

1033
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:15,900
Yeah, yep. 
So that's the athlean 10. 

1034
01:00:16,300 --> 01:00:18,000
Was you can buy wherever you buy
books? 

1035
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,400
Is there anything else you want 
to tell people about Melanie now

1036
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:23,100
that you have them here? 
No, not really. 

1037
01:00:23,100 --> 01:00:26,000
Just I supposed to do. 
Do you like hearing from people?

1038
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,900
So it have I have my podcast 
that I Just recently started, 

1039
01:00:29,900 --> 01:00:32,700
which is all about diverse 
intelligence actually, which is 

1040
01:00:32,700 --> 01:00:35,500
my sort of next project. 
So how did agency and 

1041
01:00:35,500 --> 01:00:39,300
intelligence emerge and how does
it all interact? 

1042
01:00:39,500 --> 01:00:41,900
All of the different diverse 
intelligences on the planet. 

1043
01:00:41,900 --> 01:00:44,400
So we kind of cover everything 
from me account intelligence, 

1044
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,800
which I was actually doing 
earlier today, was just 

1045
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,600
completely fascinating tip, 
teaching, in meerkats, through 

1046
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,800
to Neanderthal, Moines, through 
to philosophy of Mind, AI 

1047
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,300
everything as so, I guess if 
people are interested in that 

1048
01:00:57,300 --> 01:01:01,200
sort of thing, then then hot To 
enter the psychos Ferran and 

1049
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:04,400
listening on that. 
But but I do like getting less, 

1050
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:09,000
you know, people reaching out 
and engaging for me readers 

1051
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:13,400
often, see things that I didn't 
see or have their own knowledge 

1052
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:18,200
to bring to bear and I really 
love that aspect of the writing 

1053
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:19,400
life. 
So I guess that's what I would 

1054
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:21,700
say. 
A great links to all of those 

1055
01:01:21,700 --> 01:01:24,400
things are in the show notes and
thanks so much for being here. 

1056
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,500
Melanie, it's been my pleasure 
has been mine too, and if it has

1057
01:01:28,500 --> 01:01:30,500
been Yours as well. 
Listener, please rate and review

1058
01:01:30,500 --> 01:01:33,600
us on iTunes or apple podcast. 
Give us great rating and review.

1059
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:36,300
It helps us get content like 
this out to more people. 

1060
01:01:36,500 --> 01:01:37,800
And thank you so much for 
listening. 

1061
01:01:43,100 --> 01:01:45,600
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like the show, please 

1062
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,300
rate and review it in apple 
podcast and or Stitcher. 

1063
01:01:48,300 --> 01:01:51,000
It really helps us a lot to get 
this content to a wider 

1064
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:52,700
audience. 
If you think what we're doing is

1065
01:01:52,700 --> 01:01:55,400
useful, interesting fun. 
Hopefully, all three. 

1066
01:01:55,500 --> 01:01:57,200
We certainly appreciate your 
rating and review. 

1067
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:00,100
You can keep up with Nuria and 
Nor e.com where there is a 

1068
01:02:00,107 --> 01:02:03,700
newsletter that's Nori.com, 
subscribe, there's podcast, 

1069
01:02:03,700 --> 01:02:05,900
there's a whole bunch else or 
you can send us an email at 

1070
01:02:05,900 --> 01:02:09,600
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We are also now on patreon at 

1071
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:13,100
patreon.com Nori podcasts, if 
you'd like more content 

1072
01:02:13,100 --> 01:02:15,800
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thank you so much for your 

1073
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:16,500
support