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Hello and welcome to the 20 00:00:58,700 --> 00:01:00,500 reversing climate change. Cast. 21 00:01:00,500 --> 00:01:03,300 I'm Ross, Kenyan I am the lead strategist at the Nori carbon 22 00:01:03,300 --> 00:01:06,000 removal Marketplace. Today I have with me Jared 23 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,700 DeWees senior Communications advisor for the climate and 24 00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:12,300 energy program, at Third Way, a center-left federal policy, 25 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:14,500 think tank in d.c.? Hey Jared! 26 00:01:15,100 --> 00:01:17,500 Hey, Roz, how are you? I'm doing. 27 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:18,900 Well, thanks for being on the show. 28 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:22,400 Thank you for having me. I was very intrigued by the 29 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,400 report. Y'all just issued a research 30 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,400 report called Black Americans care about climate change 31 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,600 parenthetical, but it's complicated. 32 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:35,300 So we're going to dive into what the report deals with, but maybe 33 00:01:35,500 --> 00:01:39,400 I'm going to channel my co-host In Absentia, Christoph, Jaws 34 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,000 pay. We like to start with people's 35 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,900 stories. So Jared, what led you to this 36 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:48,400 point right here in your career? Yeah, well thanks for asking and 37 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:49,800 again, thank you for having me on. 38 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,600 So I started a third way about almost three years ago and I 39 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:57,100 wanted to work in the political space. 40 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,800 I wanted to work toward Type of change. 41 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,700 And I don't have a traditional climate Energy background. 42 00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:07,500 I've taken a few classes in climate and energy policy and 43 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:10,300 graduate school. And that is what kind of led me 44 00:02:10,300 --> 00:02:13,100 to Third Way. But prior, to Third Way, I had a 45 00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:17,900 very unorthodox route. I was a teacher at one point for 46 00:02:17,900 --> 00:02:19,500 New Year, in New York City in the Bronx. 47 00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:24,000 I also worked in fashion Communications, which people 48 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,200 always find interesting, but my undergraduate degrees in theater 49 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:29,000 and that's what led me to New York. 50 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,800 So I have I'm a pretty unorthodox winding road to Third 51 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,400 Way, but all along the way, it was my passion for 52 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,400 communications and giving voice to the voiceless. 53 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,700 When I was a kid, my very first political memory, my family was 54 00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:44,800 very politically engaged. I'm from Great Falls, South 55 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,000 Carolina, very small town, in the Piedmont of South Carolina. 56 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,400 And one of my very first political memories was the first 57 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,000 election of Bill Clinton. In my elementary school, there 58 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,100 was a mock election and you know, you had people who were 59 00:02:58,100 --> 00:03:01,900 on, you know, going for George Be punished and my family 60 00:03:01,900 --> 00:03:04,300 traditionally Democrats. Historically Democrats. 61 00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:10,100 I was fighting for Bill Clinton, who was my John F, Kennedy might 62 00:03:10,100 --> 00:03:14,700 not be popular to say now, but, you know, for me, he was, and 63 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:19,500 got me involved in wanting to inspire people, to vote, and, 64 00:03:19,500 --> 00:03:24,100 and getting people activated. And so, I remember wearing, I 65 00:03:24,100 --> 00:03:27,400 had a clinton-gore tee shirt. I used to wear it three times a 66 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:28,700 week. My mother had to rinse it out 67 00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:31,200 every single night. And I would wear it to school, 68 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,900 trying to get people to vote in this mock election, for Bill 69 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:36,400 Clinton. And since that moment to this 70 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,100 moment, no matter, whether it was getting, you know, 5th 71 00:03:39,100 --> 00:03:41,800 graders to vote, for Bill Clinton, he did lose that 72 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,200 election. In high school, we won a 73 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,300 national election or whether it was teaching students in the 74 00:03:47,300 --> 00:03:50,900 Bronx in New York City or whether it was trying to 75 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:55,900 encourage Trends in the fashion industry to now to communicating 76 00:03:55,900 --> 00:03:59,800 to different audiences about climate and climate policy. 77 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,800 My own mission in life, is always been about making change 78 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:09,700 happen for progress. You must have been a demanding 79 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,200 pupil that's really annoying kid. 80 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,200 Actually I said it diplomatically your in, right? 81 00:04:17,500 --> 00:04:19,800 Do you ask all of my cousins and all of my elementary school 82 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:21,899 friends? They'll just say annoying but it 83 00:04:21,899 --> 00:04:24,800 all turned out well, in the end. I mean I was a bit of a Class 84 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,100 Clown growing up and I wearing, yeah, fifth grade we had every 85 00:04:29,100 --> 00:04:32,000 student had to choose a president and somehow, my name 86 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,200 got drawn. First, I remember everyone 87 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,500 looked at me and I said, Bill Clinton and The class was just 88 00:04:37,500 --> 00:04:39,800 like, I don't know. I know what's going to happen. 89 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,500 All I really remember from that presentation I gave was holding 90 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:45,600 up a can of peaches and talking about impeachment I don't it 91 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,900 wasn't my finest work in humor. I think I've improved since then 92 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,200 but I think it's remember it though. 93 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,300 I bet they remembered as ever, I'll never forget that moment 94 00:04:55,300 --> 00:04:57,700 indeed. All right so that's a good 95 00:04:57,700 --> 00:04:59,700 place. You got us up to the present. 96 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:03,900 Now what is this report and what led to its creation black 97 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:06,500 Americans care about climate change, but it's complicated. 98 00:05:06,700 --> 00:05:10,200 Phyllis in. Yeah, so we've been working on 99 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,800 finding ways to, you know, give voice to demographics that are 100 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,400 often unheard in a climate conversation for about a year 101 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,900 and, you know, as are the senior vice president of our program 102 00:05:20,900 --> 00:05:23,800 says, you know, we should have started this, this work a long 103 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,200 time ago because there's been so little work done within the 104 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,000 climate advocacy Community around black Americans, that 105 00:05:32,100 --> 00:05:36,200 it's past due. And so I was pushing forward my 106 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:37,800 essay. BP was pushing forward. 107 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,900 And, you know we said that this is really important to our work 108 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:42,800 to make sure that the solutions that we were advocating for. 109 00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:46,800 We're both Equitable and fair because black Americans, not 110 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,400 only make a huge voting Block in the Democratic party, but they 111 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:55,800 make up a huge part of the constituency and the US that 112 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,700 will be impacted both by climate change as well as climate 113 00:05:59,700 --> 00:06:02,000 policies to address the climate crisis. 114 00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:06,200 So, you know, we felt that it only was it was only natural and 115 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:07,800 authentic. For us to do this work. 116 00:06:08,100 --> 00:06:11,500 And so we began this research, the qualitative portion in 117 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:15,400 February of this year and it was over a couple of couple of 118 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,200 weeks. And it was in Detroit. 119 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,300 Michigan, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and Greensboro 120 00:06:19,300 --> 00:06:22,100 North Carolina. We initially were intending to 121 00:06:22,100 --> 00:06:24,500 do qualitative and quantitative, but at the end of our 122 00:06:24,500 --> 00:06:27,800 qualitative research, the global Health pandemic had really taken 123 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,800 its toll on the us. And we decided that the 124 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,300 quantitative research that we were going to go into the field 125 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:36,300 with wouldn't match the qualitative research that we'd 126 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:39,300 already conducted because priorities worshipping you know 127 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:42,900 people were concerned about more immediate concerns about health 128 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:47,600 and job safety and their own safety rather than climate in 129 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,000 the immediate. Now that's research that we plan 130 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,800 to go back in and look at in the future. 131 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,800 But at that moment, it just didn't really make sense to put 132 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,100 that qualitative research that we conducted in our quantitative 133 00:06:59,100 --> 00:07:01,200 research together. Hmm. 134 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,900 What sort of results did you see off of this first phase? 135 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,300 Yeah, so we Three main takeaways. 136 00:07:08,300 --> 00:07:10,800 And the first of which, you know, it's something. 137 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,200 We all know that black Americans care about climate change. 138 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,400 We've seen that in Yale's quantitative study, as well as 139 00:07:16,700 --> 00:07:18,300 some other research that we've seen. 140 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,800 However, we found in the groups that we talked to that, while 141 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,900 they cared about climate change, it was a bit more complicated. 142 00:07:25,900 --> 00:07:29,900 That it wasn't a top-tier issue for them that jobs racism in the 143 00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:34,900 economy rated higher for them, but we probed a little further 144 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:38,900 with groups in each City. You would find that if you 145 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:41,200 talked about climate and connection to health, impacts 146 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,200 our climate in relationship to jobs, are climbing in 147 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,800 relationship to relocation all the things that we know are 148 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:50,900 going to have a huge that climate are going to is going to 149 00:07:50,907 --> 00:07:54,400 have a huge impact on. We found that people were deeply 150 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,800 concerned about those things. So it was about how you talk to 151 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,700 communities about climate and how you connect it to their 152 00:08:00,700 --> 00:08:03,400 daily allies. That would show that how much 153 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,300 more they cared about it and then they initially cited, The 154 00:08:07,300 --> 00:08:11,200 second takeaway that we found was that no one is talking to 155 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:14,500 the communities that we talk to you about climate change. 156 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,100 They often said that, you know, researchers and politicians only 157 00:08:18,100 --> 00:08:21,100 come around when they need something from them when they 158 00:08:21,100 --> 00:08:23,300 need research or when they need a vote. 159 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:27,700 But that no one was providing sustained communication with 160 00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:30,900 these communities about climate change and part of that is that, 161 00:08:30,900 --> 00:08:33,900 you know, a lot of people think that because climate may fall, 162 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,400 you know, is less saline in Black communities. 163 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,500 Is that they aren't as interested in the issue, but 164 00:08:39,500 --> 00:08:42,100 that's not true. And, you know, they are 165 00:08:42,100 --> 00:08:43,700 interested. It's about how you talk to them 166 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:45,300 about it. So they said no one's talking to 167 00:08:45,308 --> 00:08:47,600 us about it. The third thing that we found 168 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,800 was that clean energy jobs, and resources seemed Out Of Reach to 169 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,600 the communities. We talked to in particular, in 170 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,800 Detroit are college educated. Mixed-gender Group found that 171 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,400 are they said that they knew of clean energy job training in the 172 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:08,000 area, but they neither knew how to That with that and neither 173 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,800 knew anyone who did connect with it and they felt that it was for 174 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,800 wealthier wider communities. And so you know what, we 175 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,800 ultimately decided and what we found at this research suggests, 176 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:22,800 it was that you know policymakers and climate 177 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,300 Advocates, have a long way to go to connect climate to the daily 178 00:09:26,300 --> 00:09:30,200 lives of African Americans in these communities and to make it 179 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:36,000 also more Salient to them. And to make sure that they have 180 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,400 access, Us. We also we understand that you 181 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,300 know, in healthcare African-Americans, there's a 182 00:09:40,308 --> 00:09:43,500 big, there's barriers to access the same thing goes for climate 183 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:46,300 and for clean energy. Resources to what degree? 184 00:09:46,300 --> 00:09:49,400 Do you think this is a story about the environmental kuznets? 185 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,900 Curve, which if you're listening and you're not familiar with. 186 00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:55,900 It's basically that humans will trash their environment but that 187 00:09:55,900 --> 00:09:59,200 leads to more wealth. And then when they are wealthy 188 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,100 enough, they start caring about the environment. 189 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:03,800 Again, the story is also challenging disputed from 190 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:05,900 multiple angles so don't feel like you have to swallow it 191 00:10:05,900 --> 00:10:07,900 whole. A good example of the 192 00:10:07,908 --> 00:10:10,600 environmental kuznets curve might be where wealthy enough to 193 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,000 care about something like polar bears, but you're not 194 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,600 necessarily linking that climate change, negative outcome to 195 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,300 something like my kids have to carry around a device, a 196 00:10:19,300 --> 00:10:23,100 nebulizer, or they could die. So that's quite different. 197 00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:24,600 I imagine, what, which one is it? 198 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,400 Do you think or both? Yeah, I think it's more of the 199 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,400 latter, than the former I do. Think it's about connecting to 200 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,900 tangible evidence than it is about the curve. 201 00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:36,800 I think that generally, the reason why I say that, That is 202 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,400 because we talked to African-Americans a very, 203 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,300 socioeconomic backgrounds, and various educational backgrounds, 204 00:10:43,300 --> 00:10:47,700 and gender and Age. And what we found was that, no 205 00:10:47,700 --> 00:10:49,700 matter the gender, no matter the age, no matter, their 206 00:10:49,700 --> 00:10:52,400 socioeconomic background, no matter the education, they all 207 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,100 said, the same thing, is that? No one is connecting this to my 208 00:10:55,100 --> 00:10:57,800 daily life. So that speaks to me of the 209 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,400 latter, rather than the former and what sorts of climate 210 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,600 impacts are African Americans already experiencing or could 211 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:10,000 expect to experience. Yeah, I mean for instance we 212 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,600 think about the relocation, I mean African-Americans. 213 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,300 Systemic racism has made redlining, and for anyone who 214 00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:18,800 doesn't know, don't know what redlining is. 215 00:11:19,100 --> 00:11:22,600 Redlining it was a systemic practice where US Banks denied 216 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,400 mortgages to people. Mostly people of color, mostly 217 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,000 black people in urban areas, preventing them from buying a 218 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,300 home in certain neighborhoods. So this practice was largely in 219 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:35,200 places like, Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit and other places where 220 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,100 there are large black Missions. And so what happened was that 221 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:42,000 African-Americans were placed in communities that were usually 222 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,600 near petrochemical plants or other places that would create 223 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:51,400 environmental hazards. And so that increased Health 224 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,400 impacts not only that is that those are the places that tend 225 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,700 to there that are going to have the most impact from climate 226 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:02,200 change, and they're going to either have to. 227 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,500 If they are low income, they're going to have to stay in those 228 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:07,600 area and stuff for from work. Health impacts as well as 229 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,800 environmental hazards or they'll be forced to move if they can. 230 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,700 I mean we saw this in New Orleans during Katrina. 231 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,200 So you know that's a microcosm of what the climate crisis will 232 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,800 do to Black communities is that typically what is meant by 233 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,300 environmental racism, which we need to do a full and proper 234 00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:29,600 show about it but maybe this is a good place to introduce the 235 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,500 concept to our listeners. Absolutely, you know, we found 236 00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:36,000 in our research, the term environmental justice didn't 237 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,100 read. Any with the participants that 238 00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:41,300 we talked to. But when we talked about racism 239 00:12:41,300 --> 00:12:45,200 and climate that sparked more interest from the participants. 240 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:48,900 And so I do think personally, when you talk about 241 00:12:48,900 --> 00:12:53,600 environmental racism, it raises more flags for African-Americans 242 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,300 and saying environmental justice. 243 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,600 And we talked a little bit about this today during a briefing. 244 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,100 We held around this research is that you know, maybe people 245 00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:04,100 think with environmental justice you're thinking it's tied to the 246 00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:07,700 courts or like you're taking You know, polluters to court. 247 00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:11,100 Where's environmental racism? I know of racism is I deal with 248 00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:14,100 racism every day? And so I can understand that if 249 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:16,200 I live somewhere, my are is dirtier. 250 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:19,000 I'm going to have greater impacts than another Community 251 00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:23,600 because of the color of my skin that's easier and more tangible 252 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,400 to understand than the term environmental justice. 253 00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:29,700 So environmental racism is definitely directly linked to 254 00:13:29,700 --> 00:13:35,000 redlining and other systemic failures and it could even be 255 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,900 redlining has Is intentionality behind it but I could also see 256 00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:42,600 it. Just operating through race is 257 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,800 correlated with wealth and poverty, to some extent. 258 00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:50,300 People of color are more poor on average than white people in the 259 00:13:50,300 --> 00:13:53,100 United States. And I imagined land values, and 260 00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:57,300 rents are much cheaper around dirtier, more dangerous 261 00:13:57,300 --> 00:14:00,900 environments. So it might not entirely be 262 00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:03,600 intentional, but those outcomes still might have a racial 263 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,700 component to them. Is that an appropriate way to 264 00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:07,500 see it? I think that's an appropriate 265 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:09,400 way to see. I mean, we look at some of the 266 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,600 practices and some of the policy consequences of say the New Deal 267 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,000 from the 1930s. Some of those were intentional 268 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,900 and some of those were not but they still, you know, prove to 269 00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:22,200 be racist unintentional and in central policies that had 270 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:25,300 terrible effects for African Americans in this country. 271 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,200 So whether it was intentional or non-intentional black people 272 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:29,900 still suffer. Got it. 273 00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:31,500 Yeah. Actually I just heard the other 274 00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:37,200 day that Social Security was not accessible to Americans until I 275 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,800 think Truman is that yeah? Right. 276 00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:44,700 Yeah so you had during the New Deal there, where the Dixiecrats 277 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:50,100 who did not want domestics are field workers to receive Social 278 00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:54,000 Security benefits and those people tend to be black. 279 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,300 Do they actually single those two like labor occupational 280 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:01,700 classes out in the law? Yeah, yeah. 281 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,700 Wow. No idea. 282 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:05,800 Wow. Yeah. 283 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,300 There is There's a really good book that I'm, it's called and 284 00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:10,400 actually have it on my desk. Now, it's all when informative 285 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,500 action was white and it talks about the new deal because a new 286 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:17,500 deal, primarily benefited white blue collar workers. 287 00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:21,600 I mean, the the middle class that grew out of World War Two. 288 00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:23,500 There were a lot of black people. 289 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,700 Yes. Indeed, Who Rose to the middle 290 00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:28,100 class at that period. There were disproportionately 291 00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:31,600 more white people who grew out of, you know, the white middle 292 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,100 class grew disproportionately more than any other race in this 293 00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:37,700 country because as of the new deal and because of World War 294 00:15:37,700 --> 00:15:41,400 Two, That's fascinating. The New Deal has. 295 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,300 So much mythology around it too which isn't to say there aren't 296 00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:47,200 great parts of it that we're better off for having. 297 00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:51,000 But there's also all these stories in here that are absurd 298 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,200 racist. They're also things like 299 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,000 farmer's being paid to burn crops and all sorts of 300 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,400 contradictory policies that house one scratching one's head. 301 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,200 But how do you deal with that Legacy? 302 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,300 Because the rhetoric is cribbed for the green, new deal, right? 303 00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:06,900 So we're we're using this imaginary and trying to harken 304 00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:10,500 back to this moment where It felt like the government had 305 00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:13,000 social democracy in its sights, and this is something that was 306 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,600 going to happen in the United States and this is in the midst 307 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,100 of the Great Depression. So what lessons do you think 308 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:21,200 might be learned from the New Deal in creating one? 309 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,600 That is one not racist and to Works quite well for dealing 310 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,200 with climate change and all of the issues that relate to it. 311 00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:31,600 Yeah, I think, you know, we're seeing some of that, especially 312 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,700 with Vice President Biden. He's, you know, he just released 313 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,700 a climate initiative, the second part of his climate plan, and 314 00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:42,100 Core part of that plan was environmental justice ensuring 315 00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:45,600 that there are no intentional or unintentional policy 316 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,200 consequences for people who will suffer the most from climate 317 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,500 change. Part of that plan is about just 318 00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:54,900 transitions, you know, ensuring that workers who may do be 319 00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:56,900 displaced in a clean energy transition. 320 00:16:57,100 --> 00:17:02,000 Have, you know, a job to go to or are in least we will study 321 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,200 how we can make that transition more Equitable for people who 322 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,099 are going to be displaced. And so you know, we're seeing 323 00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:11,599 that more More especially in light of you know Rising racial 324 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:15,000 protest after the murders of, you know, Ahmad arbitrary, 325 00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:19,800 George Floyd and Brianna Taylor. I think that the time is we've 326 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,500 learned from the mistakes of the past. 327 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:25,700 I mean, I think the New Deal had, you know, great aspirations 328 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:29,100 and it intended to lift all people, but it did not. 329 00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:32,100 And so now we're in a, we understand that, and we also 330 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:34,300 understand that, you know, Rising tide, doesn't lift. 331 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,900 It doesn't look tall boots. So if we want to lift boats we 332 00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:41,400 have to do that in a more concerted and directed effort to 333 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,000 communities. Who tend to get left behind what 334 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,300 Provisions do you think are really crucial for doing that? 335 00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:50,400 Just transitions seems like a good place to start. 336 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,000 Making sure people are not abandoned after a lifetime of 337 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,300 accumulating skills which have been rendered obsolete, by law 338 00:17:57,700 --> 00:17:59,600 and just environmental stewardship. 339 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,200 What else might be connected to raise house? 340 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,300 One be an anti-racist in this Said he I realize all these 341 00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:10,600 questions are gigantic Jared. You can tell me if I'm if I'm 342 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,400 asking you to bite off more than one should be expected to chew. 343 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,700 I think the way that one is anti racism, that is a huge question 344 00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:22,700 is to really think about the systems that have been designed 345 00:18:22,700 --> 00:18:27,800 to hold people back. And then to think about how one 346 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:30,900 might not participate in those systems. 347 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:33,700 And then to question other people who might be 348 00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:36,100 participating in those systems or perpetuating the Those 349 00:18:36,100 --> 00:18:39,600 systems to me, it seems like an easy question, maybe, because I 350 00:18:39,608 --> 00:18:45,300 am black, and I because of that, I have suffered under those 351 00:18:45,300 --> 00:18:49,600 systemic failures, but I think that that is how it answer. 352 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,900 It is, you know, think about your place in that system, how 353 00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:58,000 can you address those failures and how can you challenge other 354 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,500 people to do the same and that whether that's in challenging 355 00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:03,800 your friends in their conversation and the terms that 356 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,900 they use or whether that's in the policy? 357 00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:10,000 We design, you know, making sure that we're not leaving people 358 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,400 behind and we're not intentionally or unintentionally 359 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,700 causing people to suffer and that's hard and Italy that the 360 00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:20,000 latter that is harder than the former. 361 00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:23,800 But it is something that we have grown as a society more 362 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,500 compassionate to doing and we have to constantly challenge 363 00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:29,700 ourselves to do that. Well, sure, fair enough. 364 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,500 I'm gonna go out on a limb here and I'm going to spiel for a 365 00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:36,500 second and it's, this might be, this might not make Make sense, 366 00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:38,500 but we're going to give it a try anyways, okay. 367 00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:41,000 When I think about the creation of the welfare state, I think 368 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,600 about Otto von Bismarck being pretty conservative guy in 369 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,900 Germany late 19th century, trying to make sure that the 370 00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:51,100 Socialist don't rise up and cause a revolution and overthrew 371 00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:56,300 the monarchy and and such. And so how do you give people 372 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:59,300 enough comfort and safety such that they don't feel angry 373 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:05,000 enough to tip over the oxcart as it were and this is a very 374 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,900 conservative framing. Stand that but isn't it 375 00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:11,800 concerning to people that it does feel like we're in danger 376 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,800 from both? Like my friends who are left of 377 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,600 center are increasingly radical and then the people I know who 378 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,500 support Trump and then Trump himself seems to be acting 379 00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:24,200 increasingly authoritarian ways that I find frightening. 380 00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:28,200 They seem to feed off of each other, which is extra bad. 381 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,300 Wouldn't it? Just be in the interest of 382 00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:35,600 everyone who likes Law and Order and safety and comfort to try? 383 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,100 To deal with these foundational issues in America such that we 384 00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:42,600 could believe in it and trust it and not be at each other's 385 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,900 throats at that seems like a very unifying kind of thing for 386 00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:47,700 me. I wish that was more common. 387 00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:49,900 Hmm. That's interesting. 388 00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:53,100 I think that give me a second of that one. 389 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:54,300 Yeah. Sorry. 390 00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:55,500 Was that it was that hot garbage? 391 00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:59,100 I don't know. I think what I'm looking for is 392 00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:02,100 the question. Specifically, like, are you 393 00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:04,300 asking about, trust in government? 394 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:08,000 Are you asking about how How to Stamp Out Revolution. 395 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:11,500 I guess that's when I'm trying to understand quash the 396 00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:13,800 revolution. No, I think the question I have 397 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,100 in mind here particular as my failure for not ask no, no, he's 398 00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:20,500 probably do you know, Mike Duncan the podcast, read History 399 00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:23,100 of Rome and revolutions. You're never heard of it. 400 00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:25,800 It's great. And he sort of takes this this 401 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,900 sort of Bismarck and approach, I think is politics are left of 402 00:21:28,900 --> 00:21:33,300 center but he's always talking about like, oh, okay, Rome was 403 00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:35,700 on the danger of collapse or it had left, left-leaning 404 00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:37,600 politicians. Populist who are going to cause 405 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,600 a revolution and so, these grain reforms happened or whatever. 406 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,300 As a way of postponing. This revolution, seems like if 407 00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:47,100 you're conservative at least somewhat, you would want to be 408 00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:50,700 thinking about reforms that preserve American order without 409 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,000 leading to some of the things that my deeply increasingly 410 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,300 radical left-wing friends support. 411 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,200 But I don't see a lot of that, I don't know. 412 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,700 Yeah, I don't think there's an any incentive to do that. 413 00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:05,200 I mean, our politics are incredibly the most polarized 414 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:10,000 they've been in In X, right? So there's no incentive to do 415 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,200 that. Our media is polarized, if you 416 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:17,200 are conservative, you tend to watch Fox News and it's a cycle 417 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,800 of reinforcing what you already believe and your politician 418 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,700 speak to you in that way, you speak back to your politicians 419 00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:28,200 that way. And so there's no incentive for 420 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:34,400 politicians or Advocates on the right to bend to that because 421 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,700 they'll get primary They won't get reelected. 422 00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:41,600 They won't get the favor of this President. 423 00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:47,100 So what is the incentive is the incentive for consensus. 424 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,900 When you also have the left who may or may not be interested in 425 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:56,300 that consensus and both sides, the most well-intentioned of 426 00:22:56,300 --> 00:23:02,000 them believe that what they're advocating for are the best 427 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,700 things for people. So there's really no Ascent 428 00:23:04,700 --> 00:23:07,300 incentive when when We're squared off in two different 429 00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:10,200 cans. So yeah, I think that's that's 430 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,100 the issue from the right. Specifically. 431 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,900 I think the left we tend to bend a little bit more. 432 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:19,900 We tend to want to compromise. We want to get to consensus, but 433 00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:22,500 we don't really get the same. We don't get the reciprocity 434 00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:26,200 from the right on that. Yeah, I don't, I don't see a lot 435 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,900 of it either. It's, it's disappointing. 436 00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:32,100 And I had actually had a podcast, or I did recently that 437 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:35,600 encouraged me to think more that these Cycles come back around. 438 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,200 And, There are periods of Discord. 439 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,500 And then there's Concord, and it's okay. 440 00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:42,400 This happens, I don't always get to the sense that we're going to 441 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:43,900 make it through the other side of this. 442 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:49,700 How are you concerned or, or am I being a bit Chicken Little 443 00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:54,300 here? Yeah, so I'm an optimist, I'm an 444 00:23:54,300 --> 00:23:57,700 eternal optimist and I, you know, I look at the history of 445 00:23:57,700 --> 00:24:01,600 this country and I look at, I look at how far African 446 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,500 Americans had actually come. And while, you know, there are 447 00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:08,900 times We take two steps forward and we take 10 steps back. 448 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:15,000 We do get to that point where we are better than we were and as 449 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,200 human beings. We are, you know, we there's 450 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,400 progress, there is evolution, I'm a gay man. 451 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,700 When I was in high school, you know, I, when I came out in high 452 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:29,300 school, I didn't ever conceive of the fact that I would ever 453 00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:33,900 get married and have children. And, you know, now I live in a 454 00:24:33,908 --> 00:24:37,700 country where I can and it's possible in every state of the 455 00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:39,000 union. I mean, when I first moved to 456 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,500 d.c. my ex-boyfriend, I said to him. 457 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,400 I will never live in Virginia because Virginia doesn't allow 458 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,200 gay marriage. We can live in Maryland, we can 459 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,800 live in d.c. within a year or two gay marriage was legal 460 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,400 everywhere or marriage, equality was real. 461 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,900 So, you know, progress is is possible. 462 00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:00,600 We just have to keep fighting for it. 463 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,400 And the more apathy that, you know, develops I think that that 464 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,400 is the seed of Destruction, for Progress. 465 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,500 Yeah, it's a surprising how fast that happened. 466 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,400 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was happening actually. 467 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,700 Yeah. I remember it just being a 468 00:25:18,708 --> 00:25:21,900 long-running campaign issue, all through my adolescence and early 469 00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:25,200 adulthood and then it was just like, oh, by the way, this, you 470 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,100 know, major cultural change happen. 471 00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:29,200 Yeah. Of course overnight. 472 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,100 It was also the third rail of politics at one point. 473 00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:36,700 You just didn't touch I mean, don't ask don't tell all, you 474 00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:40,300 know, defensive Marriage Act, you know, so many things that 475 00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:43,000 happen along the way that were just like, this is never going 476 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,000 to happen. And then it just happened in the 477 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,600 state by state, by Court decision by Court decision until 478 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,400 it became real. And then public opinion moved. 479 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,300 That's what really shifted it. And so, I think, you know, we're 480 00:25:55,300 --> 00:25:57,200 seeing we're hopefully seeing that. 481 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,500 Now when it comes to police brutality and and systemic 482 00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:03,900 racism, I saw a poll that said that, you know, more people 483 00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:07,300 concerned about how President Trump was handling. 484 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,500 The racial protest, then they were about how he was handling 485 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:14,700 coronavirus. So the deaths, the murders of 486 00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:17,800 four black people in this country have shifted. 487 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,700 How many white people are looking at race and this 488 00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:24,900 country, I mean, I was listening to a podcast the daily yesterday 489 00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:29,900 about, you know, Congressman John Lewis and how you know when 490 00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:33,900 he went on the Edmund Pettus Bridge, he, you know, War a, you 491 00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:37,300 know, Hand colored coat just in case he was hit by the police. 492 00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:40,100 In the blood was flattered on end and that shifted, you know, 493 00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:43,500 people seeing in the south on a news, every night children being 494 00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:48,200 set upon by dogs by the police that shifted public opinion. 495 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,100 And so I think that you know, we're seeing that moment now we 496 00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:55,200 won't know that for 20 or 30 years, you know, history like 497 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,100 his hindsight is 20/20, so we won't know that for, you know, 498 00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:02,300 years from now. But it does feel like a shift, 499 00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:06,000 you know, we're seeing topics like Systemic racism, become 500 00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:09,300 kitchen, table conversation, we're seeing topics like 501 00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:12,300 environmental, justice and environmental racism, come up on 502 00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:16,600 podcast and on the Nightly News in a way that we did not see let 503 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,600 alone five years ago, five months ago. 504 00:27:19,100 --> 00:27:22,000 So there is a shift that is happening is just about 505 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,000 sustaining. This moment to make sure that we 506 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,300 have actual real practical change. 507 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,100 You made me feel a little bit better, so I can breathe a 508 00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:33,400 little bit. Well, good, good that, that was 509 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,200 my intention. Yeah yeah. 510 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,300 Reassure the podcast host. That's that's the yeah. 511 00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:43,500 Yeah. I it's a shame because I like 512 00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:45,900 I've traveled a lot. I've been in lots of places. 513 00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:50,400 I like being an American, I'm proud to be an American, it's my 514 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,400 home but I wish I could just I feel the need to. 515 00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:55,100 I just saw this on another podcast recently. 516 00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:59,000 I feel the need to give caveats, even saying that and I would 517 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,100 love it if we could deal with some of the foundational issues 518 00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:06,300 in American history that led to To the way things are now so 519 00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:08,900 that we could just feel good about it. 520 00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:11,800 And also, I understand that I benefit in relative terms by 521 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,800 being white and a heterosexual and cisgender and all these 522 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,300 things. But I also feel like I would be 523 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,300 objectively better off. If people were not in such 524 00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:26,500 strict inequality on various those fronts. 525 00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:29,700 I think about how many people that are just sort of Lost in 526 00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:32,300 the black hole of poverty, that will never have their minds 527 00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:36,400 creating businesses or art. For other things that we are all 528 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,700 made less healthy, less safe, less wealthy as a result of, not 529 00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:45,300 having those people able to advance our society. 530 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,500 It just feels like dead weight loss to me, I guess I understand 531 00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:51,500 that in relative terms that as a white person I benefit but I do 532 00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:53,900 feel just worse off. I don't, I don't actually know 533 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,400 to what degree I am benefiting in that way. 534 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,500 I think I would be better off if we didn't have this system set 535 00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:01,000 up the way that it is. Does that make sense? 536 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,500 Or no, that definitely makes sense. 537 00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:03,900 I think, you know what's interesting? 538 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,400 To me is that as a black man? I, you know, white friends of 539 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,300 mine are wrestling with these same questions. 540 00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:15,200 Now, James Baldwin said to be a negro in this country is to be 541 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:16,800 almost in a constant state of rage. 542 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,300 And I would all would almost say that I would take the almost out 543 00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:21,700 and say it is a you know to be a constant state of rage. 544 00:29:21,900 --> 00:29:24,400 And remember why friend of mine asked me recently? 545 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,400 So you know, how do you get up every morning to have hope? 546 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,300 I said, well what other choice do I have? 547 00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:32,000 And I think that that is true of most black people and I think 548 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,700 that that is true most poor people like I get up every day 549 00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:38,200 and make a decision that today is going to be better than the 550 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,300 day before and then I'm going to do whatever I can to make my 551 00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:44,200 life better and the lives of everyone who looks like me 552 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,200 better, at least that's how I wake up every morning. 553 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,300 I know most of the black people that I know have that same, you 554 00:29:50,300 --> 00:29:54,600 know, Mantra as far as what racism does to this country. 555 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,600 I think about the words of Alexander Hamilton who said that 556 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,400 slavery, Was nothing but wasted potential and that's the same 557 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,800 thing that racism does racism is wasted potential. 558 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,800 You know, we waste people who could be great and solve some of 559 00:30:09,808 --> 00:30:13,500 the greatest challenges in this country because they can't 560 00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:16,000 either get a job. They can't get the education to 561 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,800 get that job and they can't live in a community or a zip code 562 00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:24,200 that ensures their success. And so, I think that, you know, 563 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,100 we're in a moment where white people are wrestling with this 564 00:30:27,100 --> 00:30:30,500 in a way that they never cry. We have or white people who are 565 00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:34,100 wrestling with it now and you know aren't from people who ever 566 00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:38,000 wrestle with it and I think that you know black people like me 567 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,200 now or we've all been always been confrontational about this 568 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,900 and we've always been challenging the status quo on 569 00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:46,800 this but I think we're much more forceful now because we see an 570 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,600 opening and we see an opportunity to really make real 571 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,600 sustained change and to me that provides even more a sense of 572 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,400 optimism and hope than I've ever had before. 573 00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:00,500 I've always been proud to be an American. 574 00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:03,100 I mean, w.e.b. Du Bois talked about this 575 00:31:03,100 --> 00:31:07,600 double-consciousness and that, that our patriotism is updated 576 00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:10,800 because of the history of slavery because of the history 577 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,500 of systemic racism. It's not as easy as I fly an 578 00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:16,000 American flag and I feel great and you know I feel the 579 00:31:16,008 --> 00:31:19,100 Star-Spangled Banner in my heart, you know, I can't forget 580 00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:22,900 that even under that flag and even under that Anthem slaves 581 00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:27,200 were held in this country. And so I am proud because I know 582 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,000 that progress is real and Progress can happen. 583 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,300 But I also understand the history of this country. 584 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,000 Yeah, that was beautiful. I, I'm glad you're talking me 585 00:31:38,008 --> 00:31:40,400 down. What? 586 00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:42,500 I guess it. Given that you see an opening 587 00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:45,500 here. What sorts of expectations do 588 00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:48,000 you have for this historical moment in America? 589 00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:53,500 Yeah, I think I see opportunities to, you know, like 590 00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:56,900 we talked about earlier correcting, some of the systemic 591 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,800 failures of the past and policies, you know, making sure 592 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,900 that, you know people have access to clean energy, clean 593 00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:08,500 energy, you know, resources jobs that they have the information, 594 00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:12,300 they need to challenge the system and that, you know, 595 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,500 elected leaders are held to task and our response to the people 596 00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:18,800 that they represent in a way that they never have. 597 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,600 For and that people are as in, they're engaged enough to say, 598 00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:28,800 okay, you're not responding to the problems of the whole in a 599 00:32:28,808 --> 00:32:32,100 way that is moving us forward. So we're going to vote you out. 600 00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:35,100 It's time for you to go. Either you listen to these 601 00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:36,800 concerns? Are you have to go? 602 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,600 And I think we're, you know, we're seeing that movement. 603 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,100 And we're, and I think that this is a very complicated moment 604 00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:46,300 where, you know, with cancel culture and all of these other 605 00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:48,800 things, and I think we're wrestling with those. 606 00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:51,400 Social Challenges. Now that we're going to get to a 607 00:32:51,408 --> 00:32:55,100 place where people are far more engaged than they ever have 608 00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,100 been. And that we're going to have 609 00:32:57,100 --> 00:33:03,200 policies that are in response to what people actually need so 610 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,800 that they can succeed and fulfill the actual ideals that 611 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,200 this country was founded upon, I hope you don't mind that I went 612 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,800 this Direction with the shows. It has been a great spine. 613 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,100 I mean, I think it's all connected. 614 00:33:15,100 --> 00:33:18,200 I think that you can't pursue happiness. 615 00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:22,500 If If you don't live in a place where the air is clean, and that 616 00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:26,900 the are impacts your health and that you don't have to move, or 617 00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:29,800 you don't have a job. All of these things are going to 618 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,200 be impacted by climate. So I think they're connected and 619 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,600 I think that that's part of the problem is that we don't talk 620 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,200 about it in this way, with black communities. 621 00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:40,100 And that's why it can be hard to understand, and that's why it 622 00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:42,800 can be hard to activate communities around this topic. 623 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,300 And one of the angles that you conclude the report on is that 624 00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:50,600 this is to some degree, a problem of communication and 625 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,400 reaching out to these communities. 626 00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:55,100 How do you recommend doing so, or who might be a good 627 00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:56,900 communicator? What what needs to happen in 628 00:33:56,900 --> 00:33:58,800 order to mobilize communities of color? 629 00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:02,100 I think we do want to do more research to find out what is the 630 00:34:02,100 --> 00:34:04,900 best messages and message and who are the best Messengers for 631 00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:06,500 these things. But I like, you know, going back 632 00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:07,800 to what we said. You know, we have to make it 633 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,400 more tangible. And as far as you know 634 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,000 Messengers we need to You know make sure policy makers are not 635 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,199 just talking about police brutality and Criminal Justice 636 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:24,199 Reform and all of the typical African-American issues with 637 00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:26,699 African Americans and they're talking about issues like 638 00:34:26,699 --> 00:34:30,699 climate change and how that's going to impact our exacerbate, 639 00:34:30,699 --> 00:34:33,800 all of those other issues that tend to be top tier issues for 640 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,100 the African-American Community. Oh, I imagine y'all are working 641 00:34:38,100 --> 00:34:39,800 on this. But are there other groups that 642 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,000 are trying to develop content or messaging around? 643 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,699 Yeah, I mean, you know like I mentioned earlier Yale School of 644 00:34:46,699 --> 00:34:49,699 climate change communication released a report on this about 645 00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:53,400 a year ago, the environmental defense fund also releases study 646 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,400 about African-American and clean energy resources. 647 00:34:56,900 --> 00:35:00,700 The center for American progress is also interested in this, the 648 00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:05,400 union of concerned scientists is also deeply involved in this 649 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,500 work. They released a report, a year 650 00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:11,100 ago, around this time, actually, the killer heat index that 651 00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:12,900 showed that, you know, African-American. 652 00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:15,700 Ins and I'll get the exact data for you to hit. 653 00:35:15,700 --> 00:35:18,800 You know, it show that African Americans are exposed to extreme 654 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,600 temperatures two to three days more per year in certain 655 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,300 counties in the US. So certain Counties have more 656 00:35:25,300 --> 00:35:29,100 exposure to heat than others and mostly black people live in 657 00:35:29,107 --> 00:35:31,700 those counties and by mid-century the expectation. 658 00:35:31,700 --> 00:35:33,800 Is that some of those same counties would experience? 659 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,900 20 more extreme heat days per year. 660 00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:40,500 So, you know, a lot of people are starting to do more, This 661 00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:43,800 research, connecting it with climate, you know, Acting the 662 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,200 climate, advocacy community and the environmental justice 663 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,200 movement in a way that is tangible for these communities 664 00:35:51,500 --> 00:35:55,600 and trying to activate them. And also make sure policymakers 665 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,600 understand the concerns of these communities. 666 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,300 To what degree have you thought about the necessity or lack 667 00:36:02,300 --> 00:36:04,500 thereof of Reaching Across the aisle? 668 00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:07,700 I know there are conservative proposals for addressing climate 669 00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:09,000 change. We featured some of them on the 670 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:14,100 show but I imagine some of these proposals Might stick in their 671 00:36:14,100 --> 00:36:19,400 craw, one could say, so what is the political strategy for 672 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,600 getting policy passed? That will at least pass a 673 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,800 divided Congress? You know, it would be great to 674 00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:31,500 say that I could name a republican in the house or the 675 00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:35,200 Senate who, you know, I think would be willing to work across 676 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,500 the aisle on some of these issues. 677 00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:41,100 But I can't really, I know that they have released, you know, 678 00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:46,300 Frameworks for climate. That either aren't backed by the 679 00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:48,800 science. Are not exactly serious. 680 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:55,600 And so for me, I think the best and fastest way to reach net 681 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,300 zero emissions by 2050 at the latest is to elect more 682 00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:02,000 Democrats. Every single Democrat in this 683 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,600 country who is running or has been elected. 684 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:11,100 Has a climate plan all the way to Joe Biden, and if I look at 685 00:37:11,100 --> 00:37:14,200 that preponderance of evidence and I look At the other side of 686 00:37:14,207 --> 00:37:16,900 the aisle. It's kind of hard to see where 687 00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:20,300 we can build that consensus. Now will it always be like that? 688 00:37:20,300 --> 00:37:22,500 No, it hasn't always been. I mean George h.w. 689 00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:25,500 Bush was serious about climbing, he was serious about the 690 00:37:25,500 --> 00:37:29,900 environment but since that time we haven't had, it hasn't been 691 00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:33,200 insensitive for Republicans to care about this issue. 692 00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:37,500 In the we have seen, as far as certain Technologies, there's 693 00:37:37,500 --> 00:37:39,400 consensus between the two parties. 694 00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:44,600 You know, Republicans do tend to support ants nuclear and 695 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,900 existing nuclear and that's something the center left. 696 00:37:47,900 --> 00:37:51,700 And now more more than before the far left have grown 697 00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:57,000 consensus on carbon capture seems to be a technology that 698 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,500 Republicans or warming to as well as the far left. 699 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,300 So I think there are areas around Technologies but as far 700 00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:09,700 as Holistic Solutions to The Climate crisis, that's a little 701 00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:14,600 harder to find a consensus on. Yeah, I'm vacillated on this a 702 00:38:14,607 --> 00:38:17,600 little bit. I used to be think that we 703 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,800 should focus quite heavily just on climate change and was a bit 704 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,500 suspicious that the left was using this as an opportunity to 705 00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:30,300 pass a lot of social programs that they have previously 706 00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:32,300 wanted, but could not pass. But this was a useful 707 00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:35,800 opportunity to pass under the Aegis of climate action. 708 00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:39,300 But after doing doing shows like this and reading quite a lot, 709 00:38:39,300 --> 00:38:44,100 I'm starting to think that merely addressing the parts per 710 00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:47,400 million in the atmosphere, may not be sufficient to deal with 711 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,500 all of the Justice concerns. And this might be the chance to 712 00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:54,500 do so, so I'm not sure. There's I hope that 713 00:38:54,500 --> 00:38:57,900 conservatives and republicans in Congress in particular, are able 714 00:38:57,900 --> 00:39:02,400 to find ways to contribute and be a part of climate Solutions. 715 00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:05,300 And there are groups to like, American conservation Coalition, 716 00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:08,900 has their American climate contract, and I'm sure there are 717 00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:11,000 others to that. I'm forgetting here or here in 718 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,600 d.c., you have Path isn't organization, predominately 719 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,600 conservative organization that advocates for some of the same 720 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:22,400 solutions that we advocate for niskanen Center is one that is 721 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,900 to the right of us. There are other, you know, 722 00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:28,100 groups out there who are, you know, pushing the Republican 723 00:39:28,100 --> 00:39:30,600 party. But again, as long as they're 724 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,900 reinforced by their electorate, that they don't need to care 725 00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:35,700 about this and we're starting to see a shift and, you know, among 726 00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:38,900 Republican voters that they are caring more about climate 727 00:39:38,900 --> 00:39:41,100 change. And they're caring more about 728 00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:43,000 issues like Systemic racism as well. 729 00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:48,600 So it would be I am hopeful that that push in the electorate will 730 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,700 also change the policy makers but they're, you know, we have 731 00:39:51,700 --> 00:39:55,500 to get rid of Mitch McConnell. You know, there's a whole host 732 00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:58,200 of Republican politicians, that would probably need to go 733 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,400 because they don't actually care about the electorate before, we 734 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:02,800 can actually see that change happen. 735 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,600 Yeah, maybe so at least anecdotally, I've seen, you 736 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,200 know, since I became politically aware, you know, what do you but 737 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,900 even is Maybe close to two decades ago. 738 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,000 There was a lot more climate denial that I would see in more 739 00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:21,300 mainstream areas where most of the people that would occupy 740 00:40:21,300 --> 00:40:24,400 that intellectual Niche. Now, tend to be lukewarmness or 741 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,000 the saying climate change is happening. 742 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,600 It's not as fast or not, as severe as we think, or will be 743 00:40:28,607 --> 00:40:31,900 able to adapt to it more easily Than People typically think the 744 00:40:31,908 --> 00:40:34,800 or the alarm is think. So that that change do has 745 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,100 happened pretty seriously? So I wonder what the next step 746 00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:38,200 is. It seems like some of the 747 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,600 leaders who are front-running that are groups like ACC where 748 00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:43,800 Saying like climate change is real, it's happening. 749 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,400 We're causing it. And also here's a chance for 750 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,500 conservatives to have market-based solutions that are 751 00:40:48,508 --> 00:40:51,800 not creating a social democracy, in the United States, any more 752 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,800 than we have now, and we should do this. 753 00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:56,500 So I imagine that's probably going to be the next step and 754 00:40:56,500 --> 00:40:59,300 that surely is coming. It ability to deny climate 755 00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:03,800 change as a looming threat, even the Pentagon and the dod very, 756 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,900 very concerned. The military is very concerned 757 00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:07,600 with what is going to happen with climate change. 758 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,000 It's not really something that's actively debated, except for 759 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,700 people who have Ideological interest in denying it, so I 760 00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:16,900 imagine we'll see more of that movement and maybe you'll be as 761 00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:19,600 fast as it was for gay marriage. Maybe it will just wake up one 762 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,800 day and be like, Oh, Republicans now, believe climate change is a 763 00:41:21,808 --> 00:41:23,400 real threat. They just don't want it to be 764 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,500 the green New Deal that addresses it. 765 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,400 Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I think part of that is due to the 766 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,600 media as well. You know, a lot of shows had 767 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,300 decided that they would not have climate denial list on their 768 00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:39,700 shows or they would not start because my graduate school 769 00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:42,200 thesis was about the polarization of Of climate 770 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,800 change in American politics from 1988 to 2019, long time, long 771 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,700 title. But in my thesis, I talked about 772 00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:52,700 how that shift happened. You know, we had a George h.w. 773 00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:57,500 Bush and, you know, we had more consensus, but then you had 774 00:41:57,500 --> 00:42:00,300 certain groups, certain things, you know, think tanks on the 775 00:42:00,300 --> 00:42:04,200 right who believe that climate change would, you know, inhibit 776 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,800 their donors. Who were largely fossil fuel 777 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:14,700 Barons, so to speak and they would force For FCC laws to, you 778 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:17,000 know, new stations to say, okay, we if you have someone who's 779 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,800 talking about climate change and who's not a denial list, we need 780 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,200 to have a denial and so on, you'd have to give them equal 781 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,800 time. And now you see, you know, show 782 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,000 saying actually no we're not going to have people on who deny 783 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,300 the science because this science is accepted, you know, more than 784 00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:36,800 97% of scientists. Say the climate change is real 785 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,100 and it's happening now and I think that's part of it as well. 786 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:44,700 So we're getting more. Or of the science to people and 787 00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:48,000 in a row as form and people are expecting it. 788 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,200 I think the Tropic ministration is a throwback like it's a step 789 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:55,000 backwards by him having climbed annihilus as part of his 790 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,600 commission's and, and the over 100, you know, environmental 791 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,500 rollbacks, or propose rollbacks. That he's announced. 792 00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:06,800 I think that, you know, is a step back, but, you know, we 793 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,600 have an opportunity, we have an opportunity on November 3rd to 794 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,700 say we're going Reject this climate denialism, this anti 795 00:43:14,700 --> 00:43:18,800 intellectualism and we can choose progress, you know, we'll 796 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,500 see on November 3rd, hopefully. We'll know by November 4th, 797 00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:26,600 well, you know, we don't know. But, you know, hopefully we'll 798 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,400 know like, on January 20 20th, you know, 2021, we can turn the 799 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,000 page. I don't know that. 800 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,900 The I think even if you are a republican voter, I think you 801 00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:40,500 should recognize that. I don't know that the country 802 00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:43,600 would do well for Another four years of this, like I think 803 00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:46,800 inevitably the Trump Arizona come to an end, whether it's for 804 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,600 years from now or in November, or I guess in January. 805 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:50,900 But do you think we'll ask that why? 806 00:43:50,900 --> 00:43:53,500 I feel like there's so many my friends who are left of center. 807 00:43:53,500 --> 00:43:58,100 They're like, they're veering like super radical now and I 808 00:43:58,107 --> 00:44:00,000 don't think the change you're going to get is going to be 809 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,100 someone, you know, Biden is of course, you know, working with 810 00:44:03,100 --> 00:44:06,400 the Sanders campaign and trying to adopt some of those policy 811 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,900 positions of Sanders and trying to make sure that the the left 812 00:44:09,900 --> 00:44:12,600 wing of the democratic party in the more Central Our are aligned 813 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,700 there. Would you rather have that or 814 00:44:14,700 --> 00:44:17,000 would you rather have whatever comes after? 815 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,400 The country is exhausted from trump, it doubt is going to be 816 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,900 really like more of the same kind of B in less threatening to 817 00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:28,800 the porter. Yeah, I find that argument very 818 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,300 challenging you know I hear people who say you know it's the 819 00:44:32,300 --> 00:44:36,800 lesser of two evils and I think that argument is false because I 820 00:44:36,808 --> 00:44:39,300 mean we want to talk about evil like Joe, Biden is a decent 821 00:44:39,300 --> 00:44:41,500 human being and he wants to do the right. 822 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,700 Thing, I don't believe that about Donald Trump. 823 00:44:43,700 --> 00:44:47,400 And if you believe that like I do at least, if you believe 824 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:52,300 that, you know, Joe Biden is not a dastardly man, like, you know, 825 00:44:52,300 --> 00:44:54,700 Donald Trump. Then you, you've already made 826 00:44:54,700 --> 00:44:57,800 your decision and you have to understand that we can't 827 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,000 continue another. We can't continue to let this 828 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,400 man. Be at the Helm of the Public 829 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,100 Health crisis that we're now in during largely because of his 830 00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:09,000 lack of leadership and lack of vision. 831 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,400 And even beyond that, like, Next disaster. 832 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,400 Looming right around the corner whether it's another Public 833 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,100 Health endemic but for sure the climate crisis is right around 834 00:45:18,100 --> 00:45:22,400 the corner and we're already you know seeing impacts of that we 835 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,600 don't have to wait until 2035 or 2050 or whatever day. 836 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,300 You know whatever year. You know we want to put out 837 00:45:29,300 --> 00:45:32,900 there we're seeing it now. We're seeing hotter days. 838 00:45:33,100 --> 00:45:36,000 You know, we're seeing intense flooding, we're seeing people 839 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,000 having to leave the place that they have always lived because 840 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,400 they can't live there anymore and that's only going to come 841 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:46,000 More intense and worse over the years and having people like 842 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,300 Donald Trump who also doesn't challenge, you know, Putin and 843 00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:54,500 humble senado, who are far worse, and who's to say that? 844 00:45:54,500 --> 00:45:57,100 Donald Trump won't become worse than the next four years or as 845 00:45:57,100 --> 00:46:01,500 bad, or worse than they are. So we have a choice, we have a 846 00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:03,800 choice to look forward. We have a choice to look back. 847 00:46:04,100 --> 00:46:08,600 And I'd also don't I find it hard to, you know, acknowledge 848 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,400 that, you know, people who say that not voting is an option. 849 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,000 Well, to me not voting is also a vote for Donald Trump. 850 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,000 All right, Jared, You Gotta Give me one little nugget of 851 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,700 positivity here and you got anything. 852 00:46:20,900 --> 00:46:23,200 Anything in your quiver? You can throw out real quick. 853 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,200 I think that I have hope I have hoping the American people. 854 00:46:28,500 --> 00:46:32,500 I have hope in the American Experience because every time 855 00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:37,500 that we have looked backward, we've then turn the page to look 856 00:46:37,500 --> 00:46:39,000 forward. Okay. 857 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,400 I guess that's where we're going to have to have to. 858 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:46,400 Call it and hopefully be okay with it and try to keep this 859 00:46:46,700 --> 00:46:50,200 this hope alive here. Hopefully if I didn't inspire 860 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,100 you in that moment, there's a there is a person out there 861 00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:56,000 who's like, you know what, I had a little bit more hope I'm gonna 862 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,800 go vote. Yeah, maybe so I'm always 863 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,700 curious as to what degree people people. 864 00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:06,900 Enjoy political episodes like this or that unexpectedly became 865 00:47:06,900 --> 00:47:11,200 electoral but that's okay. All right, where can people 866 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:12,700 learn more? About your work and more about 867 00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:15,100 third ways work, Jared. Absolutely. 868 00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:17,800 You know, please go to Third Way dot org. 869 00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:22,200 And, you know, follow us on Third Way energy on Twitter 870 00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:27,000 links to any, I imagine have a personal Twitter to I do, it's 871 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,200 at Jarrod do. He's my name is at ja our EDD. 872 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,900 Ew e, SE links to all of those things are in the show notes, as 873 00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:38,300 well as the original piece that we're talking about Black 874 00:47:38,300 --> 00:47:41,200 Americans care about climate change, but it's complicated. 875 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,100 Thanks. Being here Jarrod, thank you. 876 00:47:43,100 --> 00:47:46,600 Ross was a pleasure was mine too and if you enjoyed the show 877 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:47,800 please rate and review us on iTunes. 878 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,600 Apple podcast Stitcher, tell your friends and thank you for 879 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:57,400 listening, but thank you so much for listening. 880 00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,800 If you like the show, please rate and review it in apple 881 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,000 podcast and or Stitcher. It really helps us a lot to get 882 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,700 this content to a wider audience. 883 00:48:04,900 --> 00:48:07,400 If you think what we're doing is useful, interesting fun. 884 00:48:07,500 --> 00:48:09,700 Hopefully, all three. We certainly appreciate your 885 00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:11,400 rating and review you can keep up with know. 886 00:48:11,500 --> 00:48:14,700 Orion or e.com where there is a newsletter that's nor u.com 887 00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:16,800 slash subscribe. There's podcast. 888 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,100 There's a whole bunch else or you can send us an email at 889 00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:22,800 podcast at nor e.com. We are also now on patreon at 890 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,200 patreon.com slash Nori podcasts, if you'd like more content 891 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,000 engagement and community and thank you so much for your 892 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:29,600 support