1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,600 You're listening to the Reversing Climate Change podcast 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,040 by the team at Nori, the Carbon Removal Marketplace. 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:11,720 This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:13,520 developing solutions to climate change. 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,560 Tom, I have a pitch for you. This show is going out a week 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,120 from today. Would it be possible to work 7 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,240 with Ben and make this a grounded episode and produce the 8 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:25,400 show for? Sure. 9 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,640 Hundred percent, 100%. Let me just give, let me just 10 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:30,280 give Ben a very quick ring. OK. 11 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,320 Yeah. Now this is very grounded right 12 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,080 here. It is very grounded. 13 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,120 Hey Ben, how's it going? I'm sat here chatting with Ross 14 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,800 from Nori and the Reversing Climate Change podcast. 15 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:47,600 Are you? Do you want to jump on? 16 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:52,800 Hello and welcome to the Reversing climate Change 17 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,800 podcast. I'm Ross Kenyon, I'm one of the 18 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,320 Co founders of the Nori carbon removal marketplace. 19 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:58,720 We're doing something weird today. 20 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,040 Tom Perviti of the Carbon removal show and also of 21 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,519 Grounded, which is his new podcast about starting a biochar 22 00:01:05,519 --> 00:01:07,800 company in the UK. You know, I feel like I've 23 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,320 stagnated in some ways where I've stopped experimenting with 24 00:01:10,320 --> 00:01:12,960 the form. The form that I set up has been 25 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:15,440 very straightforward, as you'll hear in the show. 26 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,680 So I would avoid a lot of the post production woes that 27 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,640 previous video projects I worked on had fallen into. 28 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,040 I gave this advice to Tom several years ago when he was 29 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,400 starting the carbon removal show and he disregarded it very 30 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,360 rudely. And he made a highly produced 31 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,560 show with segments. That is something that I, I 32 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,800 always tell people to avoid. But it made for great radio. 33 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,160 And I'm, I'm really happy that he did because it made for a 34 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:38,760 really great product. That's something entirely 35 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,600 different within the world of carbon removal and climate 36 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,520 podcasting, at least as far as I've heard. 37 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:44,360 Ross, you know I am here right now. 38 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,920 I am here speaking with you SO. I mean, it's always, it's always 39 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:49,440 a bit funny to do these kinds of interests. 40 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:54,040 But yes, you were allowing me to prattle on a bit about you 41 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,520 waited till I finished saying all the nice things and then you 42 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,280 decided to jump in. You just kept going, you know? 43 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,760 It just sounded so good that I didn't want to, didn't want to 44 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,880 cut you off in your stride. Well, OK, without further ado, 45 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:10,000 here's the trailer for Grounded. I set out on a mission to create 46 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,280 a business that made biochar, explore the benefits it might 47 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,600 have and document the journey. But I'm learning that making a 48 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:20,240 small change involves big challenges. 49 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,720 Is the UK the wrong place to be doing biochar? 50 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,760 I don't think so, but. Why does it matter if it's 51 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:27,320 produced here or not? It doesn't. 52 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,480 From where to do it to proving the business model, This is my 53 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,520 very honest story of starting a climate business and everything 54 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,720 I've discovered along the way. You know, it may take a lot 55 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,080 longer than you think and there's a lot of other moving 56 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,440 parts, so I wouldn't put all the eggs in one basket. 57 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,600 Find out how it goes by subscribing to Grounded, a 58 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,800 climate start up journey, wherever you get your podcasts. 59 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,560 I don't know why it's so difficult to talk about. 60 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,840 Maybe it makes it more real, which in yeah, some ways is very 61 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:04,120 scary and I think hopefully in other ways I can find to be 62 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,880 quite exciting. Happy to have you here, Tom. 63 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,840 This is Tom Perviti from the Carbon Removal Show and 64 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,200 Grounded, which is his new podcast. 65 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:16,120 It's a great show, Tom. I've listened to all of it. 66 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,520 I wish there was more. There's only 5 episodes. 67 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,760 Come on man. I know, I know. 68 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,000 But you, you know, those five take a long time. 69 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:28,600 It's, it's taken US 6, six months of recording, just 70 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,400 conversations back and forth with family, friends, whoever, 71 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:34,480 and then two months of like just continually producing to get 72 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,160 those five out. So it takes more than you think. 73 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:38,920 Well, I mean, you know this anyway, Ross, because you, 74 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,520 you've been podcasting for years now. 75 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,680 But I think the average listener doesn't understand or doesn't 76 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,400 isn't fully aware of like the production value that can go 77 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,120 into these shows sometimes. They absolutely do not know that 78 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,120 at all. People ask me for advice on 79 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,600 podcasting fairly frequently, and I say a pretty similar thing 80 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,560 each time. But I come from a video 81 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,920 background and there's a impolite term for this, but it's 82 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,760 called frame effing. But it's not, not believed in 83 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,640 that way per SE. But there's a tendency when 84 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,240 you're in the editing Bay to be like, oh, we can just like 85 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,200 change like a millisecond here. Oh, we can add a little thing 86 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:16,760 here. And before you know it, you've 87 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,440 spent a lot of money, a lot of time. 88 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,320 No one's going to notice this change for the most part, but 89 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,880 the process just dragged and it's asymptotic to you let you 90 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,520 never reach finishing once it's there. 91 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,320 And so I set up reversing climate change to do it the 92 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,160 opposite way. You interview naturalistically. 93 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,520 You basically get what you get in the can, and if it's good, 94 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,600 then cool. If you sound kind of foolish, 95 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,040 OK, maybe you can edit a tiny bit, but maybe that's just what 96 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,440 it is and they're not all going to be winners. 97 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,560 And that's OK. But then the alternative is 98 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,440 doing something like what you did or what what Planet Money or 99 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,680 or Gimlet start up, which is very similar to to ground it 100 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,480 does. But did you hear it like that 101 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,080 workload and that that workflow for even producing 5 episodes, 102 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,560 six months of recording and what two months of producing? 103 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,400 Is that what you said? I mean, I'm not a perfectionist. 104 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,360 I'm going to say that right now. That's not even at that 105 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,280 perfectionistic level either. No, I know. 106 00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:09,720 I know. I'm really not. 107 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,680 I'm really not. But I mean, yeah, this this, 108 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,000 this latest show, I, I say six months of recording because I 109 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,440 just had the idea for it about six months ago. 110 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,840 That was, you know, shortly after I had some bad news at 111 00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:24,440 work. I was naive, redundant, and so 112 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:25,920 was looking at what I can do next. 113 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,000 I started going down this path of biochar, which I've been 114 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,000 thinking about and I just had had in the back of my mind, 115 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,840 like, it'd be great to just capture this content that I'm 116 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:37,680 learning because I'm picking up so much stuff from so many 117 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,920 interesting people. So at worst case scenario, I'll 118 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,840 just have a Bank of interesting content from conversations with 119 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:47,520 farmers or, you know, influential people in the space. 120 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,440 Farming is not farming though. Farming is a business. 121 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:52,440 The farming used to be a way of life. 122 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,640 And that's the difference. If you're looking at this from a 123 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,720 global lens, the UK is not an easy place to do by a charm. 124 00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:01,800 There's there are a load of limitations. 125 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,920 And fortunately it turned into an opportunity where we could 126 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,480 get some funding and we started the podcast to document our 127 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,800 journey. And so for the last two months, 128 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,800 we've really been taking all of that content, which is probably 129 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,160 about 50 hours worth of content. And we've taken that, condensed 130 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,920 it down and chopped and changed it into 530 minute episodes. 131 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,080 And yeah, at that rate, maybe the overkill, I don't know. 132 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,760 But we're but but but but we're we're happy with it so far. 133 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,120 I just did a show recently with the subject of a Ken Burns 134 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,920 documentary and he was saying that the Ken Burns process is 135 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,920 something like 100 hours of footage to one hour of produced 136 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,440 finished product. Like, wow, those editors, That's 137 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,040 hard too. People often think that just 138 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,120 record it and then deal with it in post. 139 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,520 That's sort of a joke in film too. 140 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,560 It's like, we'll fix it in post, we'll deal with it later. 141 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,200 But I have a background in documentary filmmaking and it's 142 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,480 actually really hard to get even you have a good footage, turning 143 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,440 it into something that's a coherent story that someone 144 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,080 would actually want to consume. It's like extremely difficult. 145 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:04,920 There's there's a lot of creative decision making. 146 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:06,280 It's invisible to the listener too. 147 00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:08,920 They're so spoiled. They have no idea the the sweat 148 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:10,800 and tears. I'm sure that you're doing you 149 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,120 and Ben suffering right? Oh, my God. 150 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:14,720 Yeah. And I mean, I have to, I have to 151 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,760 shout out my producer chap called Ben Weaver Hanks. 152 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,400 He's a magician. Like I basically I came to him 153 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,920 and was like, hey, Ben, I've been capturing all this content 154 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,120 for the last few months. Obviously we worked together and 155 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,000 worked together on the carbon removal show. 156 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,880 So he was like, oh, say Tom, not more. 157 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,840 What's this new idea you have? And fortunately, he kind of 158 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,920 liked the idea of telling the story of launching a carbon 159 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,880 removal startup and listen to some of the content that I 160 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,160 banked and thought, let's let's give this a go. 161 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,000 So yeah, hats off to him for the the hard work he's done on 162 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,240 helping me kind of put it together. 163 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,400 I didn't have six months to spend on an episode, but this 164 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,160 was when I thought we could collaborate to make something a 165 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:02,040 bit more interesting. OK, this is a lot of effort that 166 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,440 has been spent recording, conceptualizing, producing. 167 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,040 We get this question at Nori sometimes too. 168 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,200 All the the ways you could spend your time. 169 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,880 Why creative media? I'd be really curious to know 170 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,600 what your answer is, both for carbon removal Show and also for 171 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,960 Grounded. Big question you stumped every 172 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,800 time they ask you as well. Yeah, it's hard to. 173 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:27,560 Yeah, there's a lot to say about it. 174 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:29,720 Yeah, that's a thing. There's like there's lots of, 175 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:30,880 there's lots of different answers. 176 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,400 I think if I'm trying, if I try to condense down, I think first 177 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,320 and foremost, something that became really apparent to me in 178 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,679 2020 when we first started like looking at this was that just 179 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,720 that there was just such a poor lack of understanding in carbon 180 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,160 removal and being able to tell a compelling story in a very 181 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,120 simple way. Put it into lay terms, make it 182 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,160 interesting for for your average listener, for anyone, your 183 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,920 climate conscious individual to to your grandma who doesn't 184 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:01,560 really kind of know what a podcast is. 185 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,560 If you can make it engaging, then I think that can only do a 186 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:07,040 world of good for like the awareness of this industry. 187 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,600 So I think there's a big awareness raising thing there 188 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,240 that, that that drives me when it comes to the carbon removal 189 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,320 show and grounded and this new podcast. 190 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,680 I think in the grounded context and for this new business that 191 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:25,080 I've set up restored the biochar company, I think it makes a lot 192 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,920 of sense because firstly of that awareness raising thing for 193 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,280 carbon moving more generally, but then secondly, with these 194 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,400 projects, you have a lot of lead time to build up for things like 195 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,520 I could put a deposit down on a, on a pyrolysis machine, which is 196 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,080 the machine we need to make biochar. 197 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,000 And I'm going to be waiting, you know, 3612 months before that 198 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,760 machine is ready. So I've got some downtime to 199 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,880 sort things out and that could be anything from finding my 200 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,600 feedstock, building out partnerships and supply like 201 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,280 supply agreements, finding a buyer for my carbon credits. 202 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,080 But at the same time, like I'm not physically doing the thing 203 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,520 yet. So it made sense to put effort 204 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,720 into building content. And I think the the other piece 205 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,520 for me, for the grounded side of things that made sense was I 206 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,720 don't know, when I first started looking at biochar, I thought I 207 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,760 thought I knew biochar. I thought I knew carbon removal, 208 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,520 right? Like I do a podcast on carbon 209 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,920 removal. Therefore I must know lots about 210 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:24,640 it. Be very careful what you say 211 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,880 next about that, Tom, but OK. But I guess like naively, I was 212 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,280 like, well, you know, I know about this, I know about 213 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,640 biochar. And then, you know, a few weeks 214 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,960 in I was like, holy SH like, oh, there's a lot more here to that 215 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,480 meets the eye. And so that sort of kind of 216 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,520 shock for me, having been in the industry for two or three years, 217 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,520 made me realize people need to know more about how these 218 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,280 projects get set up. You know, they need to 219 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,480 understand the challenges around getting set standards and 220 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,960 certifications, machinery, supply chain. 221 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:00,920 And I think that story isn't told ever. 222 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,080 So I'd like to tell that story as well. 223 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,520 Very similar to an answer that I would have given Nori for a long 224 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,640 time. Was just chugging along trying 225 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,600 to get carbon credits out the door and finding ways to talk 226 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,760 about things that people don't fully understand or especially 227 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,400 when we started carbon removal was was a much newer thing and 228 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,800 so we're just trying to educate people on what we're even trying 229 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,520 to do and why it matters at all. I love the format of doing this 230 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,160 though as a business starting up I think one of the hardest 231 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:30,800 interviews to do. Maybe you agree with this and 232 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,920 maybe you don't, but companies, as they receive venture backing 233 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,240 and they get a little bigger, there's a tendency towards 234 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,960 conservatism and people don't want to be too vulnerable in a 235 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,360 public space because it might they might reveal some One of my 236 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,360 favorite parts of the show that I ever had was OK, I hope you're 237 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,200 not going to blush. Peter Reinhart of charm. 238 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,160 But I asked Peter a question about intellectual property and 239 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:59,200 if he felt any difficulty with patenting bio oils process 240 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,920 because charm has a, as I understand it, a pretty large 241 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,160 patent in that space. Peter has a software background. 242 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,800 People in software and did not like, they like to open source 243 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,400 ethos. They don't actually want to be 244 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,400 real patent focused. And I could tell that Peter was 245 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,520 really struggling with the idea. He needed to, but he wasn't 246 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,000 fully comfortable with it. And the way that he talked about 247 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,720 that on the air, I respected that a great deal because a lot 248 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,320 of people would have given me a much more canned answer. 249 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,600 And it doesn't make for good radio and it doesn't make me 250 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,080 trust them as a business as much. 251 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,240 But the way that you go about it and with grounded, honestly, it 252 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,400 made me want to buy biochar from you, like made me want to 253 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,360 support you. I I find myself connected to you 254 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,680 specifically, not not just biochar as a whole. 255 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:43,760 I'm invested in you. Listening to this show. 256 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,720 It's, it's a really successful marketing tool, I think for you. 257 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,760 I think it worked on me. And I know the trick, yeah. 258 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,640 Well, I mean, we're selling. But then again, I haven't bought 259 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,160 anything yet. So did it actually work? 260 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,880 I don't know. It inspired good affection from 261 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,360 me. Yeah, I think just, yeah, I 262 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,720 mean, it's something that we're thinking like something that I 263 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,800 think a lot of carbon removal companies face is like how open 264 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,720 do you be, how transparent do you be versus like, I guess 265 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,040 keeping a lid on things. And I think a lot of companies 266 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,400 towards the side of being, yeah, let's keep a lid on it. 267 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,000 And I don't know, I've just taken a very different approach. 268 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,680 And you know, we have nothing, we have nothing special 269 00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:29,040 ourselves, right? Don't get me wrong, we have 270 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,120 nothing special. We, we're just like, as things 271 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,840 stand, we're, we're, we're purchasing a machine from Auk 272 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,040 manufacturer in the name of Catcha, who have also got a bit 273 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,520 of a turnkey solution for some of the software side of things. 274 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:43,880 You know, we're, we're doing this on farm. 275 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,880 We're sourcing biomass from local councils and other sort of 276 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,760 like civil engineering contractors. 277 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,760 We have no IP yet. And I think, you know, that's 278 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,560 something that's a journey that I would like to tell is like, 279 00:13:57,560 --> 00:14:00,800 we'd like to figure out what our unique selling point is, what 280 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,920 our IP is, if we do find that. And I'd like to be able to tell 281 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,800 the story of how we get to that point because I think there's 282 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,920 such a mystery. And I think everyone talks about 283 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,360 transparency in this market, how transparent we must be and being 284 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,360 open to, you know, kind of lifting the lid on things. 285 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,200 But I'm just curious. I'm just eternally curious and 286 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,040 want to want the answers to things. 287 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,200 And so I would want the answers to this stuff if I was on the 288 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,200 other side. So I feel as though being on 289 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,280 this side I should give the answers. 290 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,680 It's beautiful. It might be naive, but I share 291 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,120 in that naivete with you like I want it to be that way. 292 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,840 We publish our methodologies under a very permissive Creative 293 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,240 Commons license. If you want to use our DAC 294 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,040 methodology or our croplands methodology, you can just fork 295 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,280 it, remix it, republish it. As long as you don't make put 296 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,560 republish it under a more restrictive license, you can 297 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,280 just run with it because that's not the thing that we're trying 298 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,880 to make money off of. We're not trying to make money 299 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,320 off of gated methodologies or services like that. 300 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,280 I think that's part of this is just OK. 301 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,800 So backing up one second, one of the episodes I just listened of 302 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,640 Grounded, you're talking about how you've been seeking non 303 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:11,640 dilutive capital by way of grants and pre purchases and not 304 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,600 seeking venture investment, which is good 'cause once you 305 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,760 get on that C Corp way or whatever they have that's 306 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,760 equivalent in the UK and you have a, a board of directors and 307 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,680 they want you in many cases to have intellectual property. 308 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,680 Because if you ever seek acquisition, that's the thing 309 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,600 that's being acquired in addition to the team in most of 310 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,680 these cases, unless you have physical infrastructure or 311 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,680 something else. And maybe you will, because if 312 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,240 you'll have actual physical units out there, But they want 313 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:37,680 to see that. It's like the pressure is really 314 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,360 there to not be collaborative at the level of intellectual 315 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:41,560 property that we would like to see. 316 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,000 So we, we might all talk a good game about that. 317 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,280 We clearly climate is past fail. We need to all do it together or 318 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,400 we don't. But there's also capitalistic 319 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,600 incentives that throw a big monkey wrench into there, too, 320 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,040 where you're like, OK, now to please the people with money and 321 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,240 corporate governance norms, now I have to do something that 322 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,160 might not actually be in the climate's best interest. 323 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:03,440 That's a really hard decision to deal with. 324 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,440 Well, exactly, I don't face any of those. 325 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,120 We don't face any of those pressures yet because we're 326 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,520 funding ourselves through crowdfunding and well, we're 327 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,360 funding our pilot project. Sorry, we are starting very 328 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,400 small and and so we don't have those, you know, large pressures 329 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,240 from investors because we're doing crowdfunding, we're doing 330 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,760 grant funding, we're taking pre purchase agreements or pre 331 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,200 purchase orders. And so that's enabling us to be, 332 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,280 I guess, quite nimble in, in the way that we think about things 333 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,000 and how we talk about things. But I think I also, I did have a 334 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,080 conversation with, with, with somebody in VC in, in, in the 335 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,240 climate tech space recently and kind of asked them that 336 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,320 question. I was like, what makes a carbon 337 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:46,640 removal company investable? And they're very clear, like you 338 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:51,640 need to be able to demonstrate that your solution is, you know, 339 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,680 having X amount of impact in terms of removing CO2 from the 340 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,360 atmosphere. It could be X millions of tons 341 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,040 by a certain date. And that could be through you 342 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,800 doing the removal yourself or through you providing software 343 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,440 that assists that removal, providing some sort of 344 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:09,400 intellectual property that allows others to do the same, 345 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,560 get catalytic impact. And they made an interesting 346 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:17,359 split between being a company that's venture capital sort of 347 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,960 backable in this space and being a project developer. 348 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,720 And like currently I see, you know, currently the way that 349 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,520 we're set up, we're just a project developer. 350 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,760 You know, we're sourcing a machine, we're we're sourcing 351 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,200 feedstock from somewhere and we're, you know, funding project 352 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,520 by project. And that doesn't make us venture 353 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,120 capital sort of fundable. And that might well be the path 354 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:40,040 that we choose to go down. We'll see what happens. 355 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,320 I don't know yet, but we're using the pilot as a way of 356 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,240 figuring out whether we are a venture capital back able 357 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,440 business. And if So, what it, what is our 358 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,560 IP and how do we want to talk about that? 359 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,160 Or are we just a project developer, which is still great 360 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,160 in and of itself, but kind of I guess eventually we'll need to 361 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,360 make that decision. Hopefully we'll start making by 362 00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:07,760 HR first. Yeah, I think I think it's nice 363 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,600 because there's been so much criticism of the venture backed 364 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,320 model for carbon removal companies because a lot of them 365 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:20,120 are used to outsize software company returns and people. 366 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:21,360 This is the cliche at this point. 367 00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:23,840 But you know, moving atoms is more difficult than moving 368 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,000 electrons essentially doing things in physical meet space, 369 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,080 different, different economics, different amounts of electricity 370 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,200 needed. It's just it's just not scalable 371 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,640 in the same way. But the pressure to constantly 372 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,720 be ramping up, I think we're going to see a lot more of the 373 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,120 developer model. I've talked to a lot of people 374 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:45,560 recently who are working on various types of project finance 375 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,720 efforts because people people realize there is this gap here. 376 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,680 And even for companies that are venture backed, once you get an 377 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,400 off take agreement that is not bankable because you have no 378 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,640 track record and cannot receive, you can't raise debt against 379 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,200 many off take agreements, then what do you do? 380 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,240 You're just like, cool, I have an agreement for every year for 381 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,840 four years, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to get there or I 382 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,800 have to raise venture capital in order to do that. 383 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,120 But that puts me in a whole different dynamic that I might 384 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:13,160 not even want for my company. Yeah. 385 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,360 We need we need something like what you're describing. 386 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:19,320 I'm glad that you may fits your business model may be trying to 387 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,120 pioneer some of that. Yeah, I do. 388 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:24,120 Yeah. Well, again, it's so early days, 389 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:25,760 right? You know, we've got a machine 390 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,360 that's we've got a machine on order and we're hoping to start 391 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:32,080 to break ground and make our first batch of biochar in the 392 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,480 summer. But yeah, we're, we're hoping to 393 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,000 take those learnings and see how we can kind of forge a path 394 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,320 forwards. Whether that's smaller 395 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,800 decentralized systems, whether that's larger, more centralized 396 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,040 approaches with the unique approach to supply chain, I 397 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:46,880 don't know yet. But like we're going to, we're 398 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,200 going to learn as we go and hopefully document the journey 399 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,680 because I think that's what a lot of people want to know. 400 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,040 I've got I yeah, I've had enough challenges trying to figure out 401 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,320 how we get grant money and crowdfunding money, let alone 402 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,960 going to institutional banks for our project yet. 403 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:02,600 It seems like that's going OK for you, though. 404 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,880 It sounds like you got what? It sounds like you had 11 Grant 405 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,720 come in, at least as of my list, yeah. 406 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,240 Yeah, yeah. So I mean, the way that we've 407 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:16,080 gone about funding our kind of start up so far is like I said 408 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,720 through non repayable finance. So we've applied for a bunch of 409 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,560 grants and we've done a crowdfunder which is 410 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,360 successfully just tipped over 100%. 411 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:28,640 So we, I think we were trying to raise £30,000 on there so far, 412 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,320 which is awesome. We had half of that has been 413 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,800 matched by Cornwall Council, which is the local council which 414 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,480 we're where we reside. They're really bought into the 415 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,960 project, which is awesome. So yeah, kind of crowdfunding, 416 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,960 R&D grants, local grants, climate grants, these sorts of 417 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,040 things for like small businesses and then pre purchases. 418 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,960 So and then a bit of savings, a bit of my own savings or 419 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,200 redundancy package basically is kind of what's going into 420 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,240 setting this project up. And you know, in total, we 421 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,360 estimate that this pilot, we're essentially going to be removing 422 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,600 around 100 tonnes of CO2 from the atmosphere if we were to run 423 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,200 it for 12 months, which means we're probably producing about 424 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,520 40 tonnes of biochar. And that the cost of doing that 425 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,600 with the operations that we have and with the CapEx. 426 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,080 So buying the machine and getting it set up, it's about 427 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,640 100 to 150,000 lbs. So I mean, it's still not cheap, 428 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,640 but it's, it's, it's a lot cheaper than like machinery and 429 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,280 kits and projects that I've looked at in the past when I was 430 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,080 doing my research. I mean, you know, when I was 431 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,400 this, this is what blew my mind. In one of the episodes we talk 432 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,360 about they're finding the right machine. 433 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:42,320 Looking at machinery for a while now, you can get one machine 434 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,080 that costs £20,000 and then you get another machine which costs 435 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:48,680 upwards of €2 million. Wow. 436 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,840 If you drop £2,000,000 on the machine, what else would you 437 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,880 expect? Constant monitoring, 24/7 on 438 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,080 time, an automated feedstock popper, automated bagging 439 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:04,080 system, a weighing scale, like everything flat screen TV makes, 440 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,160 you can get the cricket. It just kind of blew me away 441 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,560 that there was such a big difference in price. 442 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,320 And so like, yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting 443 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:14,840 kind of approach we've taken to funding it. 444 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,840 I don't know if many carbon removal companies have 445 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:22,200 crowdfunded their first pilot project, but it made sense for 446 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,560 us to do so. Is it is it crowdfunding for? 447 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,800 Is it donations or are they buying equity or? 448 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:30,800 Yeah. Well, so so they're, they're 449 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,200 getting, I guess, yeah, kind of like more like Kickstarter 450 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,280 reads. So they can get, they get 451 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,360 products if they like. If you, depending on what you 452 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:41,760 contribute, we'll send you some biochar or we'll do site visits 453 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:42,960 with you. You'll get access to the 454 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,240 podcast. So it's a bit more of a 455 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,880 Kickstarter type thing. Note, if we send you biochar, we 456 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,360 can't account for that in our actual life cycle assessment. 457 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,240 So like that biochar won't be counted in our carbon removal 458 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,000 totals because we can't make sure that it's gone on. 459 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,440 You know, we, we can't guarantee that you've put it into your 460 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,800 soils. But yeah, so, so we might need 461 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,280 to make it a little bit more, for example. 462 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,920 I have a personal connection to the UK biochar scene actually, 463 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,800 which I recommend rather small, but I was one of the one of the 464 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,120 first buyers in my understanding of the earthly kiln so. 465 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,760 Oh, oh, you put one of those kilns. 466 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,040 We did a show about it. I'd still have it. 467 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,360 It's in my garage. I actually should bust it out. 468 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:32,480 I have a bunch of waste biomass, and so it's time. 469 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,720 But yeah, I felt like I tried it several times with people from 470 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,240 work. Never quite got the full hang of 471 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,080 it. To be clear, I think this was 472 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,880 user error. I think what Earthly is doing is 473 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,280 amazing and very cool and I think I just need more practice. 474 00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:49,400 I find it's it's a little bit harder than people think to 475 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,680 actually produce workable biochar. 476 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,920 Oh, it's not like you had to do several weeks of training to 477 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,600 with the the manufacturer, essentially. 478 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,040 Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of lot of back and forth on on really 479 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,440 getting to grips with how we're going to work with this machine. 480 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,040 But when you first hear about biochar, right, you just think, 481 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,160 oh, that makes sense. I take some biomass, I stick it 482 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,360 into a bite into a pyrolysis kiln or system, whatever it may 483 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:19,480 be, and then I turn it on and then I'll get by HR out of it. 484 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,160 And in reality, it's a lot more complicated than that. 485 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,120 You know, you've got to think about the moisture content of 486 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:29,120 your feedstock. You know, you're biomass, you've 487 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:33,080 got to think about the residency time, making sure like we have a 488 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,920 batch system, right? So we've, if you imagine this 489 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,560 big three by three meter, you know, machine a box within a box 490 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,160 and inside that internal chamber, we stuff our biomass, 491 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,760 we switch it on by literally doing a small fire. 492 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:52,400 And then that heats up the external chamber, which then 493 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,160 warms the internal chamber to a certain temperature. 494 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,000 Then you're getting syn gases coming off, which they have to 495 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,080 funnel back into the external chamber to then run that 496 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,480 cyclical sort of burn process. And then you've got to watch it 497 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,600 for hours to make sure that it doesn't go to too high a 498 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,600 temperature so that you're melting the steel or that it's 499 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,280 not kind of dropping in temperature. 500 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,960 And there are all sorts of things that you need to bear in 501 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,680 mind, you know, when you're when you're running these processes. 502 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,640 It's not just as simple as like making a bonfire and putting 503 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,560 some wood on it and getting some biochar out. 504 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,440 Yeah, it's complicated. I actually have nightmares. 505 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,520 I genuinely, I wake up at night time. 506 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,360 I mean, having like the panics thinking about like, God, are we 507 00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:35,760 going to like, are we going to, are we, how's it going to work? 508 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,120 Are we getting all the wood, you know, all the, all the supply 509 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,000 coming in at the right time? How are we going to process it? 510 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,680 What's going to happen after we've run the first few burns? 511 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,320 What if the machine isn't working? 512 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,840 Like there's so many unknowns? And I mean, yeah, I guess that's 513 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,480 part and parcel of setting up a new project, but I'm excited to 514 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,400 to see where it goes. Yeah, I am too. 515 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,520 I'm definitely excited to listen to actually, once the machine 516 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,280 gets turned on and it's time. I'm that's why when you're 517 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:03,400 coming back with the show, right? 518 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,440 I imagine delivery day is probably the tapes rolling. 519 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:07,920 Yeah. Yeah. 520 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,680 Our plan is, I mean, yeah, the way that we've organized it so 521 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,240 far is that the first series, the first season of this kind of 522 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:19,560 grounded show documents I guess the the founding idea of, of 523 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,120 restored and getting to grips with the location while we're 524 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:27,720 picking Cornwall as our area to grow, to run with the machinery, 525 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,600 the financing and the sort of pre purchase stuff. 526 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,320 And then the second series is going to be later this autumn 527 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,040 where we, yeah, talk about the practicalities of running this 528 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,960 thing. You know, by that point, we'll 529 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,400 have got the machine on site, we'll have sourced our 530 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,200 feedstock, we'll have been producing Biocharm, We'll 531 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,440 hopefully be working with those farmers that we've partnered 532 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,160 with. And then we'll go through that 533 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,120 whole process of getting certified. 534 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,400 So all of that is to come in the next season. 535 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,640 Sounds great. Where's the where's the pasties 536 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,160 and where's the clotted cream? Those are the only things people 537 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:03,400 know. Yeah. 538 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,520 Where is. That's a good point where? 539 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,880 Yeah, no, no, it's true. Cornwall's got a lot going for 540 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,040 it. There's there's a, there's some 541 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,160 great, there's some, it's a beautiful place. 542 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,360 Like I'm fortunate enough to to spend a lot of time there when I 543 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:18,240 was younger. So it's nice to kind of be 544 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,320 spending more time back there again. 545 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,040 And then I'll be I will be eating a lot of a lot of cotton 546 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,320 cream and scones with some jam and and pasties. 547 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,200 How's been the reaction from the biochar community? 548 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,920 Because we have a running joke internally, especially in the 549 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,320 the meme lab, that biochar people are a special breed. 550 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,880 They're, I feel like they're the oddest of any of the people in 551 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,040 the carbon removal as a class of people. 552 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,680 I don't know what it is, but it attracts a very specific kind of 553 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,880 person, as have you been welcomed into their arms? 554 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,440 I mean, first and foremost, we've been since putting this 555 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:58,600 out. I mean, we've obviously been 556 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,040 speaking with people for like the last six months and so have 557 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,800 been communicating with a lot of bunch of people in, in biochar, 558 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,720 whether they're project other project developers or academics 559 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,240 and whatnot. And I think, yeah, you, you, 560 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,600 you're totally right. It does attract, it attracts a 561 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:21,160 breadth and depth of character. And I think that is testament 562 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,840 to, yeah, like all the possible kind of uses biochar has and all 563 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,560 the possible ways that you can make it, all the possible 564 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,880 feedstocks that you can use. You know, you could turn any 565 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,560 sort of organic biomass into biochar if you had the right 566 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,640 machinery and the right kind of process. 567 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,440 So I think it just attracts all sorts of characters that have 568 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:47,040 like these interesting inspired ideas of, of, of how to make 569 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,280 this stuff. And some are a bit bonkers, 570 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,560 others make a lot of sense. And the community that I've at 571 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,760 least been engaged with so far has been really has been really 572 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,880 positive actually, like I've spoken to some really, I've 573 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,760 spoken to some of the largest biochar producers now in terms 574 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,760 of kind of carbon removal deliveries and, and pre sales 575 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,280 and off takes. And it's been really positive to 576 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,680 hear their kind of feedback from what we're doing, which is it's 577 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,760 just really nice that you guys are talking about this in a, in 578 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,600 a candid, transparent way. And, you know, when we went 579 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,840 through this journey a few years ago, especially at the stage 580 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,360 where you're at, we really identify with some of the, you 581 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,880 know, challenges that you have. And so far, it's been a nice 582 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,920 positive reception. Yeah. 583 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,400 Do you guys get any, any view? I'm curious from putting 584 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,920 something out there like this podcast and obviously the years 585 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,160 you guys have been doing this, what's like the craziest sort of 586 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,640 response you've had or like most memorable outreach you've had 587 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,520 from a listener or from from someone that's engaged with the 588 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:50,160 podcast? Oh. 589 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,000 There's been been a decent number of those over the years. 590 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,800 My favorite ones are the people that are still involved in the 591 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,400 carbon removal community who got into it through the podcast. 592 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,160 That isn't to say the podcast necessarily. 593 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,360 Like in some cases that means the podcast introduced the idea 594 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,560 of carbon removal to them when they wanted to work in climate 595 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,200 and they made a beeline for carbon removal subsequently. 596 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,640 And that's really cool. But I also just like being a, a 597 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,560 step on people's way in. So there's a version of you 598 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,240 reached out to us for advice about podcasting and there's a 599 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,200 version of reality where I was like, podcasting is full. 600 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,960 Don't talk to me, Tom. We don't need any more carbon 601 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,600 removal podcast. Please just go to your job. 602 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:34,120 And I think that's pretty wrong headed because climate is pass 603 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,280 fail. We need more content. 604 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,720 The kinds of people that might listen to your show might like. 605 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,920 The last couple shows I've done have been kind of odd, frankly. 606 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,840 The show that came out today as of recording what was it about 607 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,600 was on the philosophy of science. 608 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,480 So we read Thomas Kuhn and Paul Fare off and not everyone's 609 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,360 going to listen to that. Before that, I did a show about 610 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,680 the Vietnam War and climate change and and Carl Jung and 611 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,960 psychoanalysis. That's not for everybody. 612 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,280 There's been a bunch of shows like that where maybe I'm able 613 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,320 to like bring people in through avenues like that and. 614 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,520 But yeah. A lot of people have come in and 615 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,640 into carbon removal at least partially due to reversing 616 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,080 climate change and carbon removal. 617 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,680 Newsrooms, I think a lot of pride in that. 618 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,000 I don't know what. What's the same question for 619 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,120 you? What Have you had anything like 620 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,040 that? Yeah, I think this is going to 621 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,920 this, this, this was, this was a really odd thing for me 622 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,880 actually, when I. So, yeah, when I was out of a 623 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:33,560 job like November or December last year, I had been spending a 624 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,120 bit of time researching this biochar project. 625 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,480 And ultimately, as you know, I'm now here committed to doing 626 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,600 that, which is what I kind of wanted to do all along. 627 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,640 But there was a period for, you know, a few weeks or a month or 628 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,880 so where I reached out to, you know, the carbon removal network 629 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,680 that I had. So I spoke to other marketplaces 630 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,240 and registries and, you know, people within the industry and, 631 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,660 you know, had coffees and, and early stage interviews, quote UN 632 00:32:00,660 --> 00:32:03,640 quote, literally every single one of them was like, oh, it's 633 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,920 weird hearing your voice because I've listened to you before on 634 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,920 the carbon removal show and I was like, what? 635 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,840 Welcome back to the Carbon Removal Show. 636 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,640 My name is Tom Bravitti, and I'm joined as ever by Emily Swaddle 637 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:15,800 today. We're going to. 638 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,960 Be talking, you know, there are senior people that are heads of 639 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,280 departments at these amazing businesses that, you know, when 640 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,320 they were first hired or first getting into carbon removal, 641 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,200 they were like, they listened to the likes of the carbon removal 642 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,320 show or the Reversing Climate Change podcast. 643 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,160 And that was a bit jarring for me because I was like, well, 644 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,000 you're interviewing me for a role and you got upskilled on 645 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,680 this industry partially because you listen to the show that we 646 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,080 produce, which is awesome to hear, but also a bit jarring. 647 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,080 And I was like, well, so that, but that was quite a cool, I 648 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,880 guess in a way, quite a cool moment to kind of have that, 649 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,280 have those sorts of conversations. 650 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,920 I love those ones too. Those ones are always kind of 651 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:55,760 fun. They're like, wait, I know 652 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,360 you're. Oh, OK, I get it. 653 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:58,520 I see your name. OK, I got it. 654 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,120 That was like the one thing, one thing I love loved about 655 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,880 Grounded too, is that it made me want to start a biochar company. 656 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,680 I was like, OK, So what if Nori doesn't work out? 657 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,440 What would I want to do? And one of the things that is 658 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,920 really interesting about biochar among all the other carbon 659 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,080 removal methodologies is that you, there's many biochar 660 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,480 producers. If you look at the leaderboard 661 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,120 on CDRFYI, like, oh, there's a lot of biochar represented in 662 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:24,760 there. And the volumes are often 663 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,640 smaller, the deliveries are higher because it's available 664 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,480 pretty quick relatively. And it seems like it's one of 665 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,520 those things almost like concrete, where since the LCA 666 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,480 matters a lot where you are in proximity to waste, biomass or 667 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:39,840 other things or other feedstocks. 668 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,600 So it means that like it can take place in a very distributed 669 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,120 fashion. It's not like I have to raise 670 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,600 $100 million to pump into a reservoir. 671 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,120 Essentially, yes. If I wanted to do this, what 672 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,400 what should I do besides listening to Grounded? 673 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:54,680 How? What are you going to evaluate 674 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,480 if this is the right career move for me? 675 00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,920 A caveat this by like don't take my advice. 676 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,000 What? Why wouldn't I take your advice 677 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,240 on? That, I mean, I don't, yeah, 678 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:05,800 really. Yeah. 679 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,400 Why would you? Who would, who would do that? 680 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,000 Really? We're really starting on doing a 681 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,840 podcast about it. But I would say you can. 682 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:15,440 This is something that I, I thought about. 683 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,840 I'd, I'd kind of gone back and forth on, I think like you can 684 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,679 map, you can map all day long. Like you can build a spreadsheet 685 00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:26,120 and work the numbers and kind of work that, you know, as much as 686 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,239 you want. And I think at the end of the 687 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,280 day, it's quite a knife edge business model, biochar 688 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,000 production. And I think when you when you 689 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,159 pour over like a spreadsheet, modelling it so, so much, you 690 00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:40,280 might just get to that point where you just see it's too big 691 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:46,320 a risk to take. And I would say, I would say do 692 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,239 do some of that, but also don't be afraid to take the risk and 693 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,719 like have A and start small. So you're not perhaps, you know, 694 00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:57,600 purchasing a multi $1,000,000 machine to begin with. 695 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,040 But start small, learn your supply chain, learn where that 696 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,120 feedstock's going to come from, build those early contracts, 697 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,800 which is what we're working on right now. 698 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,520 And then work on the other side. You know, who's going to utilize 699 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,240 your biochar, Who is your customer at the end of the day, 700 00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:15,840 Because you need that physical biochar to be used by somebody 701 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,000 so it can be stored somewhere, whether it's in the soils or 702 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,840 elsewhere. And I think, yeah, there's only 703 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,760 so much modelling you can do before you just have to push the 704 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,400 push the screw it button and just do it. 705 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,080 I would say don't let that that sort of like financial modelling 706 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,520 get in the way of doing something meaningful. 707 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,280 It's. Nice, I like that advice. 708 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,880 I'm I'm going to. But again, don't take my advice. 709 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:40,760 Do not take. My advice here? 710 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,080 OK, I won't take your advice against Tom's warnings. 711 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,880 I kept picking his brand. I want to ask you about the 712 00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:54,320 directionality of biochar because at least for now, you've 713 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,360 said that you're focused on a more decentralized farm oriented 714 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,640 model for biochar production. One of the long time things I 715 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,280 used to hear a lot, I think I'm hearing less of it now, was that 716 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,040 there actually isn't a lot of availability for large scale 717 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,120 kilns being made in biochar. Just the the sort of like tool 718 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,960 and die shops have not yet started making the machines to 719 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,960 make the machines yet. It sounds like maybe that's 720 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,640 changing, but is there a future where there is going to be quite 721 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,960 serious centralized biochar production or do you think it's 722 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,280 going to be remain distributed like concrete is? 723 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,080 Oh, it's a really good point. It's a really good question. 724 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:30,640 I mean, again, this is just speculation, speculation for me, 725 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:36,360 but I, I do see a world in which there is both a very centralized 726 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:41,480 model, so very large facilities removing, you know, 10s of 727 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,320 thousands of tons, maybe more each year. 728 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,520 And then there's a more decentralized model. 729 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,080 Like again, I think it very much depends on the, on the 730 00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:53,920 geography. You know, perhaps a more 731 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,080 centralized model works in regions where you're able to 732 00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,960 have that sort of large infrastructure. 733 00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:04,200 You've got large farms, large, you know, single ownership land 734 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,760 masses and areas where you can kind of get a facility set up 735 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,760 and you've got all that biomass in that area. 736 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,400 But then there are, you know, countries and geographies where 737 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,720 you've got very smallholder farmers, let's say, and they've 738 00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:20,080 all got small plots. And ultimately you need a sort 739 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,760 of kind of community sort of biochar production model. 740 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,520 And I guess like the centralized people may query and question 741 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,680 the decentralized people on their approach when it comes to 742 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,920 the efficacy of the biochar, for example, and the and like 743 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,800 evidencing the LCA in the right way because there's, you know, a 744 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,600 lot of challenges there if you've got hundreds of 745 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,320 smallholder farmers producing biochar, for example. 746 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,200 But I think I do see a world in which there is like sort of two 747 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,960 types of biochar then. And I think there's a market 748 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,760 maybe maybe for both, but I'm, I'm very curious to see what 749 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,000 what happens to the sort of like pyrolysis machinery over over 750 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,600 time. It's weird because the the 751 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,040 climate doesn't really care in a in a way where. 752 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,720 It does not turn out where that. Ton of CO2 is being removed. 753 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,200 The climate doesn't really care, but the customer does like the 754 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,080 the companies do care. And so weirdly, they really, you 755 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,280 know, auk based company really likes the idea of auk based 756 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,000 carbon removal project. And, you know, I'll be the first 757 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,640 to admit we are using this pilot project as an opportunity as 758 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,880 much as anything else to test whether we believe biochar can 759 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,320 scale in the UK. And there might be a world in 760 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,280 which that isn't the case, at least for us. 761 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,840 And so therefore, we need to think about a Plan B. 762 00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:39,720 And that could be looking abroad and working in a different 763 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,200 geography, or it could be kind of doing something else. 764 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,920 But we're using this pilot to figure that out. 765 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,680 And so, at least as things stands, kind of new, this is a 766 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,160 big learning exercise for us. For us too, I think we came at 767 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,840 this from a very a prioristic, rationalistic approach where, 768 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,720 yeah, the climate doesn't care if it's produced here or there. 769 00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:03,800 We want this to be done as cost effectively as possible. 770 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,480 But buyers want more than that. In many cases. 771 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,600 Buyers want those intangibles. They want the story. 772 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,600 The line we used to say was that no one really wants to buy a 773 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,240 barcode. I think that's true. 774 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:18,480 I think people abstract climate benefit is one thing, but I 775 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,480 think people are often times buying a story. 776 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,280 And if that story means it comes from an idyllic part of the 777 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,880 British countryside that you romanticize because of King 778 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,800 Arthur and Claudic cream and all of that, then OK. 779 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,040 Like maybe that is something that you should lean into rather 780 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:33,600 than scolding them. Be like, you shouldn't care 781 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,920 where this happens. Like maybe, maybe it's OK. 782 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,280 Yeah. No, I think, I think like, you 783 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,240 know, it made sense to do the thing where we're doing it now 784 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,840 for various different reasons and kind of, I guess we, yeah, 785 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,400 we're leaning into that, that Britishness and want to want to 786 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,080 really spread the project as as far as we can. 787 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,920 And I think not only for like to help raise awareness about us as 788 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,520 a project, but also just raise awareness about biochar and 789 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,080 carbon removal. Like I said, having spent a few 790 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,440 years in carbon removal and then also a year and a half or two 791 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,200 years selling carbon removal through the marketplace that I 792 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:12,360 used to work at, I was blown away by how few people in 793 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,000 sustainability like heads of sustainability. 794 00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:19,160 Knew about carbon removal. I think it was just, it shocked 795 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,080 me that and again, it's it's a bubble, it's a small industry. 796 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,120 Hopefully it's growing, but it just took me by surprise by how 797 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,600 few people were aware of it really, given how important I 798 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,360 guess the IPCC says it will be come 2050. 799 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,080 That's a That's a hard thing to face. 800 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,360 That is indeed a hard thing to face, but I really respect the 801 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,840 way that Tom is working on this. I like when people are doing 802 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,800 their work in public and being able to show vulnerability and 803 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,480 how uncertain so many of these things are. 804 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,400 I think people think that IT projects strength to not 805 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,640 acknowledge how difficult these questions are. 806 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,000 And when people do their work in public, I think it 807 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,200 counterintuitively inspires a lot of trust. 808 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,480 The kinds of people I trust the least are people who pretend to 809 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,600 have all the answers and to have everything figured out. 810 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,200 I think that's a scary ideological position to try to 811 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,600 defend, and I really like it when I see people who are able 812 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,040 to work through these things openly and with an open heart in 813 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,080 that way that you can tell. I think that really shows 814 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,960 strength in a way that people do not commonly understand or as 815 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,480 business people use to their advantage. 816 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,840 So kudos to Tom. Please go listen to Grounded. 817 00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:35,640 It's a great podcast. The Carbon Removal Show is as 818 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,960 well, and they have an active crowdfunding campaign going 819 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,960 right now if you'd like to get involved in what Restored is 820 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:43,800 doing. If you want to support British 821 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,520 biochar production in the countryside, that's a great way 822 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,240 to do so. And thanks so much for 823 00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:51,360 listening. All the normal ending notes here 824 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,080 applied to ratings and reviews on Spotify and Apple Podcasts 825 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,400 are very much appreciated. Thank you so much for listening 826 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,840 and have a lovely day. Thank you so much for listening. 827 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,080 If you could please subscribe and give us a great rating and 828 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,000 review on Apple Podcast or a rating on Spotify, that'd be 829 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,320 much appreciated. It helps us get our content out 830 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,160 to more people. You can sign up for our 831 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,240 newsletter at nori.com, follow us on social media, and we will 832 00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:16,160 catch you next time.