1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,720 Thanks so much for tuning in to Reversing Climate Change. 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,040 I'm the host Ross Kenyon 2 sponsors right now, Rainbow and 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,440 Philip Lee LLP. If you give me a couple minutes, 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,040 I'll tell you about why they are very relevant to your interests. 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,840 So listen up. If you follow me on Sub Stack or 6 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,680 LinkedIn, you've probably seen me write for Rainbow recently. 7 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,320 They have a very idiosyncratic approach to how science is 8 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,080 commercialized and how engineering works within carbon 9 00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:26,920 removal. And I really like working with 10 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:28,080 them. I've learned a lot from the 11 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,160 people there. They're very smart, thoughtful 12 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,200 people and they're aiming to be the most developer centric 13 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,440 registry out there. What's cool about Rainbow is how 14 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,160 seriously they take field engineering experience. 15 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:40,960 They aren't. They're just to write a bunch of 16 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,600 detached rules about how things should work in the abstract and 17 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,440 then let project developers figure it out, know they are 18 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,840 very serious about field engineering, about how 19 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,360 operations actually work in the real world, and they take a 20 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,000 rigorous yet philosophical approach. 21 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,840 I'll link to those articles in the show notes in the sponsors 22 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:01,840 section. You should check them out 23 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,239 because it will give you a very good idea of why I think Rainbow 24 00:01:05,239 --> 00:01:07,880 is a very cool company and one that you should consider doing 25 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,160 business with. If you are a project developer 26 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,040 and you're thinking about which registry to use for your next 27 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,720 project, you should absolutely take a meeting with Rainbow and 28 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,480 see if there's a fit there. One thing to keep in mind that 29 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,760 is often very important to the project developers that I've 30 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,400 interviewed as a result of my work with Rainbow doing customer 31 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,440 discovery work, just trying to wrap my head around the 32 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,680 opportunities that they're seeing is how fast their 33 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,800 certification process is. They typically quote around 3 34 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,760 months to issue carbon credits, which is very short. 35 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,760 It goes by lickety split for registries. 36 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,240 So if you're a project developer, you're looking for a 37 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,880 registry to use to certify and issue your carbon credits. 38 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:48,920 Take a look at Rainbow links in the show notes. 39 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,760 Thanks so much for listening. I'd also love to tell you about 40 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,280 Philip Lee LLP. If you've been working in this 41 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,480 space for really any amount of time, you probably have noticed 42 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,440 that you do need competent counsel to do business here. 43 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,560 The contracts that get signed are, frankly, pretty weird. 44 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,440 You're going to need help from a lawyer with a red pen, I'm sorry 45 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,880 to inform you. Your only choice is basically 46 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,760 who they should be. And if you are deciding who they 47 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,360 should be, you should be considering Philip Lee LLP. 48 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,600 They've won Environmental Finances VCM Law Firm of the 49 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,680 Year for the last gosh, since 2023 essentially. 50 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,800 It hasn't happened yet for 2026. I imagine they're a contender 51 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,880 for it this year as well. They are the largest legal team 52 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,280 dedicated to the financing and development of carbon projects 53 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,400 globally, and they have offices in the US, Europe, and the UK. 54 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,600 One cool new thing I just learned actually is that they 55 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,720 have been listed as a firm in Chambers Global as a global 56 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,960 market leader in the area of climate change. 57 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,360 This listing alliance, Philip Lee LLP, with around 15 to 20 of 58 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,640 the leading law firms practicing in this practice area in the 59 00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:55,800 entire world. So Congrats to Philip Lee LLP. 60 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,720 Thank you to both Rainbow and Philip Lee LLP for your generous 61 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,800 support of the show. You make it possible for me to 62 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,040 dedicate so much time to putting out content that I hope is 63 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,800 useful to our friends and peers and fellow travelers in the 64 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,040 world of carbon removal, climate change, and carbon markets. 65 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,640 Thanks so much. Here's the show. 66 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,960 Hello, thanks for listening to reversing Climate change. 67 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,720 I'm Ross Kenyon, I'm the host of the show. 68 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,200 I'm a carbon removal and climate tech entrepreneur. 69 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,080 I'm also someone who likes books. 70 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,320 Today I'm going to talk about a short story that I really love 71 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:44,720 and its application to the idea of vocation, which I think it's 72 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:49,560 an underused term. Vocation if you've ever studied 73 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:54,840 any language that uses cases, Any language that uses 74 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,960 declension, which is when nouns change similar to how verbs are 75 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,840 conjugated, but sometimes nouns can also change rather than 76 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,440 using prepositions which are outside of the noun. 77 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,360 Sometimes prepositions can be a part of nouns, and the vocative 78 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,720 case is how it works when you are addressing someone, when you 79 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,680 are calling someone. So for instance, it's not a two 80 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:22,880 Brutus, it's a 2 Bruti. If you're addressing Brutus, you 81 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,480 change his name because you were calling him. 82 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:31,200 It's the vocative case. And a vocation is meant to be a 83 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:36,440 calling. And this can be quite distinct 84 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,560 from the job that you do, the work that you do. 85 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:46,040 A vocation is meant to be something that is meaningful. 86 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,680 In fact, a vocation opens the question of who is the one doing 87 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,840 the calling? Is it to your own self? 88 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:55,360 Is desiring after something that it knows that it wants? 89 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,760 Is this some sort of divine motivation or fate? 90 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:04,280 Determinism. Some of those funny embeddings 91 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,760 of meaning inside of a what would otherwise be a rather 92 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:13,480 neutral linguistic term. I think, I imagine this at least 93 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,520 partially comes from the Latin and the Catholic Church 94 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,640 referring to people who are called to religious lives like, 95 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:25,240 you know, being nuns, monks, priests as the vocations. 96 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,120 And I think when work is good and you know that you're doing 97 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:35,880 something that is meaningful, that is rewarding, you feel like 98 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:41,640 you're in the right place. I think that can be vocational 99 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,160 and it also doesn't necessarily have to be 1 single thing. 100 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:52,960 One thing that I've loved about my life since my last company 101 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,640 closed down is that I've been able to work with a number of 102 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:00,440 entrepreneurs in either a mentorship capacity where I am 103 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:03,320 volunteering and accelerator programs. 104 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,320 That's also turned into paid coaching work and accelerator 105 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,560 programs, in addition to advising arrangements with 106 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,320 companies. And that for me, has a strong 107 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,160 vocational meaning. I feel as though I am where I'm 108 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,120 supposed to be. I am adding value, I am working 109 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,280 through big questions and I'm able to do the job in a way that 110 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,840 I experience. Is being emotionally connected, 111 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:37,160 impactful, encouraging, while also being real about the issues 112 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:42,760 that companies face as well. It's not just being a damn the 113 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,480 torpedoes never tell me the odds. 114 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,040 Sometimes you need to deliver feedback that may be tough to 115 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,840 hear about one's company. And I can still view that job as 116 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:57,200 something that I find to be a beautiful, rewarding experience. 117 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,520 I actually really like educating, and I don't even 118 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,040 really like using that word so much. 119 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:09,360 Just I like being an external strategic enabler for others, 120 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,760 and that's something that I really like doing and feel very 121 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,880 passionate about to the degree to which I'm willing to use 122 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,280 vocational about 17 times so far in this podcast. 123 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,640 Not all work feels like that. It's not every day that it does. 124 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,400 I've been thinking a lot about the nature of work, of Labor, 125 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,760 because how could you not? And one of the other parts of my 126 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,160 life that feels vocational is this podcast. 127 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:41,040 Not every part of it feels vocational to me, but when it 128 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,040 does, I feel I'm on the right track about something important 129 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:50,480 and I feel connected to a long and powerful lineage. 130 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,320 I'm going to explain what that means. 131 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,760 In order for this to have a lick of a chance at making sense, I'm 132 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,800 going to have to walk you through a short story which I 133 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:08,800 adore, called Leaf by Niggle by JRR Tolkien. 134 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,080 I've known about this story for a very long time. 135 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,000 A friend of mine recommended it to me. 136 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:21,080 I don't even know how long ago. I saw them post on social media 137 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,640 years ago a podcast called Classical Stuff You Should Know, 138 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,920 and they did an episode about Leaf by Niggle and I had it 139 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,880 saved in my podcast app for I don't even know how long. 140 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,240 It was one of those. It's been downloaded. 141 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,480 It's at the very bottom of the list, older than anything else 142 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,799 that's been downloaded. I always been like, I'm going to 143 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:44,920 get to it. As you probably heard me mention 144 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,520 on this show before, Books finds you at the right moment. 145 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,280 I wasn't ready when I first tried to read Leaf by Niggle. 146 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,360 It washed right over me, made basically no impression at all. 147 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,240 But some part of me just kind of knew, like there's something 148 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,200 here. I'm going to want to revisit it. 149 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:04,960 So recently, probably a month or six weeks ago, I listened to 150 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,400 that classical Stuff You Should know podcast about leaf by 151 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,720 niggle. It's produced by several 152 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,320 teachers, as far as I can understand, from a classical 153 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,640 Christian Academy, the kind of school that's reading Aquinas 154 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,960 and Aristotle and and working through the classical 155 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,760 humanities, like liberal arts tradition. 156 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,240 And so I listened to this podcast and I'm like, OK, this 157 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,680 is really the exact right moment for me to be discovering this 158 00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:35,360 again. And I'm going to go back and 159 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,560 read Leaf by Nickel. Big surprise. 160 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,120 I think Leaf by Nickel is brilliant. 161 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,160 It's so didactic, but it's also so unexpected, which makes it a 162 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,480 truly wonderful tale. So I'm going to tell you about 163 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,400 it. It's going to spoil it, but also 164 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,000 you could listen to it or read it in less than an hour if you 165 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,680 would like. Niggle is a painter and he lives 166 00:09:56,680 --> 00:10:00,720 in the countryside of what I imagine is England, and he's not 167 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,920 that great of an artist. He's OK at it, but he's 168 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,520 passionate and he's always working on a picture of a tree 169 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,880 and it keeps getting bigger and bigger, but he never quite 170 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,400 finishes it. As he's working on it, his 171 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,880 neighbors, people from the town, just keep bothering him with 172 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,400 what he deems interruptions. No, he has to serve on a jury. 173 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,880 Oh, such and such needs a little help with their garden. 174 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,880 You have a distant relation who's I'll somewhere. 175 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:39,280 In other words, his life is full of the regular a business of 176 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,200 living life. There are people who who need 177 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,280 things that he is in a position to help them with. 178 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,200 And while he he does it and he does help these people, he never 179 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,920 especially wants to he he broadly resents the intrusion, 180 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,960 but he's compliant and and serves them his his goal is to 181 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,960 get back to his tree and keep painting as much as possible. 182 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,280 And if you know anything about Tolkien, who wrote the Lord of 183 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,720 the Rings and quite a lot of poetry and other mythological 184 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,600 works, this is basically his life. 185 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:17,160 He's trying, I imagine trying desperately, to birth into 186 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:25,760 existence an entire internally coherent, powerful mythological 187 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,600 realm. Immensely difficult to do. 188 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:35,720 Having a symbolically rich story that also broadly holds is a 189 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,640 really challenging thing to do. They joke about it in that 190 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,480 podcast, which by the way, if you want to listen to you, I'll 191 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,840 post it in the show notes. They joke that Tolkien was was 192 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,440 always would argue with CS Lewis about how the Chronicles of 193 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,600 Narnia universe doesn't actually make sense, like there's 194 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:54,400 contradictions in it that he's never been able to resolve. 195 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,320 So Tolkien was really trying to make this thing all sort of make 196 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,080 sense. And that's a lot of work. 197 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,640 But life keeps intervening. He keeps having to do things. 198 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,000 His community needs him for various things, and he knows 199 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,320 that he actually has an important journey coming up that 200 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,640 he cannot refuse. It will not surprise you to know 201 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,560 that that is a literary way of describing death. 202 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,840 If someone ever says that they have an important journey that 203 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,080 they cannot postpone any longer or something like that, that's 204 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,360 it's symbolism for death. I think almost, almost always we 205 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,200 have a joke in my family about how your high school literature 206 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,200 class would always ask you, well, who's the Christ figure in 207 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,080 this novel? And and by joke, there's always 208 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,240 one, There's always someone that you can put into that molds 209 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,720 because you come from a Christian civilization if you're 210 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,080 from a Euro American orientation. 211 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,680 But Niggle has to make a journey. 212 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,040 And his neighbor parish comes by his house and says that his wife 213 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,800 is ill. And he very much needs Niggle to 214 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:02,480 ride his bike to town to get the doctor for his wife because he's 215 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,600 worried that his wife doesn't merely have a cold, but it's 216 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,280 actually a fever and she may die. 217 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,160 Niggle knows that he may himself catch a cold. 218 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,040 He doesn't especially want to do this journey, but he does it to 219 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,400 help perish and perish his wife. And he goes. 220 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,680 He falls ill, and Parish's wife is fine. 221 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,120 I was apparently a quick call. She recovers quickly. 222 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,600 So the trip ultimately had no instrumental result. 223 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,360 That made Niggles journey worth it for the outcome. 224 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,000 It was one of those things where the intention mattered but the 225 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:40,480 outcome was irrelevant, which is, I think, symbolically and 226 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,720 theologically important to the story. 227 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:46,320 While he's there, he's also meant to ask the builders, 228 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,000 builders, you know, British for construction people, if they can 229 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,280 come by to fix Parrish's house because the roof is is failing 230 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,120 and it's letting in the damp and the cold. 231 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,760 And that's at least partially why Missus Parrish fell I'll 232 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,880 niggle falls. I'll soon enough. 233 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,160 The the building inspector comes by and says that the law 234 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,840 requires him to help his neighbor because they're having 235 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,360 bad weather. And Niggle should have helped 236 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,560 his neighbor more to stop the damage from getting worse during 237 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:19,520 this stormy period. And Niggle points out that the 238 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,760 town has an emergency fund, like he shouldn't have to be the one 239 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,480 to help perish. But the inspector points to his 240 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,600 painting and says, look, you've got canvas, you've got wood, 241 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,360 you've got waterproof paint. It's all right here. 242 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,760 You have all the means to help your neighbor and you chose not 243 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,160 to, even though you could have prevented his home from being 244 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,040 damaged further by the rain and the storm. 245 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,720 Of course, Niggle thinks that his art is more important than 246 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,040 helping his neighbor. And so if you stop reading here, 247 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,240 you would think this is such obvious Christian parable, 248 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,120 right? Niggle is selfish. 249 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,480 All he cares about is his art. He's not even especially good at 250 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,720 it. He just wants to make it for his 251 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,760 own vain desires. And obviously, the thing in life 252 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,800 that counts is helping your neighbor, and that is true to an 253 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,360 extent. But what I love about this story 254 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,040 is it doesn't end there. And there's actually a much more 255 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,840 sophisticated set of moral lessons that come. 256 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:22,280 So while Niggle is dealing with this very insistent building 257 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,200 inspector, the driver of his coach that he's been awaiting 258 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,960 for his travel arrives. And Niggle doesn't want to go. 259 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,120 He hasn't packed anything. He wasn't prepared to make this 260 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,720 long journey right now, but here it is. 261 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,520 It is upon him. And there's no time to do 262 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,880 anything except to comply. And he's also just so tired. 263 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,000 He's, I'll, he's just going to allow himself to be carted off 264 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,040 from his home and taken where the driver wants to take him. 265 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,200 And if you're thinking this sounds like the Grim Reaper, 266 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,160 then like I said, I don't really think that there's a lot of 267 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:03,080 attempts to hide the symbolism, which is interesting, right? 268 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,160 Because Tolkien is actually very sophisticated with how he uses 269 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:07,960 symbolism. And the Lord of the Rings books 270 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,800 are not straightforwardly symbolic. 271 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,240 Like if, if I ask you the high school literary question of who 272 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,520 is the Christ figure in Lord of the Rings, you could give 273 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,280 several answers and write several essays that would 274 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,560 convince your teacher that you actually did the reading and had 275 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,800 thought about it. Like, it could, it could be Sam 276 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,800 wise. You know, Sam is basically 277 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,920 saying Christopher. I think the mythological story 278 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,400 of Saint Christopher is closest for Sam, But you could also say 279 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,000 that Sam's amount of sacrifice and humility is Christ. 280 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,160 Like in this way, obviously you could say Frodo. 281 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,360 And then what is Oh gosh, do I want to, even if you haven't 282 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,080 read, read Lord of the Rings or watched it, if you don't want 283 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,160 spoilers, quit now because I, I feel like I have to talk about 284 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,080 Lord of the Rings just to, to make sense of this. 285 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,400 Frodo decides that he's going to keep the ring the same that 286 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,760 Izlder did a very long time ago before the Lord of the Rings 287 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,680 trilogy happens. And then Gollum tackles him and 288 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,520 tries to wrestle the ring away from him, bites his finger off, 289 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,200 and then falls into mountain doom and ironically saves the 290 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:19,640 day by his own greed rather than letting Frodo's corruption win. 291 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,720 It's like, it's beautiful. Like rich. 292 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,160 Like what? What is that story? 293 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,079 There's so much depth to that. It's hard for me. 294 00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:29,080 I know it's symbolically important, I know it's 295 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,480 meaningful, but I also can't tell you exactly what is 296 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,360 operating there. Part of it goes back to 297 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:38,760 Gandalf's feelings about mercy that I had to look up the quote 298 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,200 because it's one of those things that's so, so tightly written 299 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,920 and so perfect that it would be a shame for me to to butcher it. 300 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:52,720 Sam is asking Gandalf why didn't Bilbo just kill Gollum back when 301 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,760 he had the chance and why is Gollum still alive and why 302 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,760 doesn't someone do something about Gollum who's just 303 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,840 following the ring bearer across Middle Earth? 304 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,400 Gandalf chastises Sam for this question and says many that live 305 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,120 deserve death and some that die deserve life. 306 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,920 Can you give it to them then? Do not be too eager to deal out 307 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,920 death in judgment, for even the very wise cannot see all ends. 308 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,000 I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but 309 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,040 there is a chance of it, and he is bound up with the fate of the 310 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,200 Ring. My heart tells me that he has 311 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,600 some part to play yet, for good or I'll before the end. 312 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,520 And when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many 313 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:39,480 Yours not least. What a powerful statement. 314 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,920 That's such a such a beautiful thing. 315 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,480 And of course Gandalf is right. If Gollum had been killed 316 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,920 earlier in the story, Frodo would have perfectly duplicated 317 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,120 the Islder story and just walked away from it. 318 00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,280 And then we'd have a whole another cycle, potentially of 319 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,320 the ring being lost and found. Or maybe just Sauron would get 320 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,240 his hands on the ring right after that. 321 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:09,160 The mercy for Gollum allows him to stop Frodo's corruption from 322 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,160 allowing either the cycle to return or for darkness to to 323 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,640 finally win in Middle Earth. Such an interesting part of the 324 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,640 story here too, because you can also compare this to like when I 325 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,000 think about Jewish theology and Christian theology. 326 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,800 Jewish theology has a really strong cyclical feel. 327 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,080 It's all about how the Israelites, they make a covenant 328 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,200 with God and then they break it, and then they make it another 329 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,600 covenant, and then they break it and they make another covenant 330 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,800 and they break it. And the Old Testament basically 331 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,360 ends, as far as I can tell, as a layperson, without resolution of 332 00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,400 this central circular dynamic. It's just on and on and on, 333 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,640 which I think is poetically so beautiful too. 334 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,920 If you think about our time on earth as a chance to improve 335 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,880 your soul, to learn things, to become a better person. 336 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,280 It's not a straightforward path. You might feel like it's 2 steps 337 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,960 forward, one step back. Maybe it's 2 steps forward to 338 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,320 three steps back. Sometimes in life it's not a 339 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,920 straightforward process. And Jewish theology having that 340 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,960 circularity to it, I think it's a really beautiful thing. 341 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,240 But then Christian theology layered on top of Jewish 342 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,280 theology is interesting because it takes that cycle and the 343 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:23,360 attempt is to break the like permanent revolutionary aspects 344 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:27,520 of of Jewish spiritual life. And to solve it once and for all 345 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,000 and to say, actually, this is the new covenant. 346 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,960 This is what we're doing now. Pick up your cross and follow 347 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,560 me. And this is sort of meant to be 348 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,840 a capstone on the cycle to maybe close it once and for all. 349 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,640 And so if you take that to Lord of the Rings and you're watching 350 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,560 the the Mount Doom scene, who is what in Christian mythology 351 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,200 here? Frodo's moment of darkness could 352 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,120 be the agony in the garden. You know, this could be 353 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:58,360 Gethsemane, where Jesus is worried about what is to come 354 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,320 and shows his moments of humanity here. 355 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:07,280 Could be something like that. But then what is? 356 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:12,440 What is Gollum exactly? Gollum doesn't fit neatly into 357 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,640 the Christian story because it's so deeply ironic. 358 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,560 Gollum's greed unintentionally saves the day because he bites 359 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,680 off Frodo's finger and falls into mountain doom. 360 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,560 What are we to make of that? It's there's almost like a if, 361 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,640 if you haven't seen the movie Burn after reading the Coen 362 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,320 Brothers film, it's wonderful. You should definitely see it. 363 00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:40,320 But the conclusion of it has a moment where the sorry again, I 364 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,600 got to spoil it, but it's also been out for a long time and you 365 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,440 should see it. JK Simmons and the other people 366 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:51,400 at the CIA are just like trying to figure out what even occurred 367 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:52,920 in this story. They're like, what? 368 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,520 What was this? And JK Simmons said something 369 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:57,720 like, well, what did we learn here? 370 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,400 I guess not to do it again. And like, that's the conclusion 371 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,320 of the movie, that it's just it's contingency, it's 372 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,720 randomness. It just kind of happened. 373 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,880 But like, what are you meant to learn from that? 374 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,240 It's not as straightforward as Christian mythology. 375 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,960 There's something else. There's like Christian elements 376 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,720 to it. But the resolution of this is 377 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,000 not straightforwardly Christian in this way. 378 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,840 It's it's there's like a sophisticated, nuanced kind of 379 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,440 understanding of this. The best thing you can say about 380 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,000 is you have to go back to that original Gandalf line and hear 381 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:35,160 him say that like Bilbo not killing Gollum as an act of 382 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:40,160 mercy means that this act of mercy that Gollum did not 383 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:45,080 deserve, that he still does not rise to the challenge of like he 384 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,760 does not deserve mercy potentially even until he falls 385 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,920 into the lava of Mount Doom. Like the last thing you see of 386 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,560 Gollum is him slipping the ring on, becoming invisible and then 387 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,080 falling into lava and being consumed by magma. 388 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,720 So as far as I can tell, he didn't have a spiritually 389 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,520 transcendent moment. He never had his redemption. 390 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,400 It's like if you're, if you are looking at this from a Christian 391 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,240 lens, you're craving that moment of, of redemption. 392 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,040 You know, like if you are thinking about someone like Jean 393 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,160 Valjean, here he goes. No, comes to Les Mis. 394 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:18,720 It ultimately all goes back to Les Mis. 395 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,680 Like you want that moment of redemptive grace and of mercy, 396 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,400 Like you want mercy to win. And Gollum, Gollum does deserve 397 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:34,520 mercy, even if he is unable to receive it gracefully. 398 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,960 And that is a Christian story, right? 399 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,000 The gentlest understanding of Christianity here is it really 400 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,960 takes the the smallest acknowledgement of of being a 401 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:49,160 Sinner, which is everyone within Christian theology, to be 402 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,440 eligible for grace. It doesn't have to be. 403 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,640 It's like the pride of denying that one needs forgiveness or 404 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,120 mercy and feeling to be as as good of a person as one truly 405 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:05,520 can be is what it takes to be eligible for mercy. 406 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,240 Gollum can't get there. But Dang it, I still I still 407 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:10,840 believe in mercy. And the people who extended 408 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,720 mercy to Gollum were correct about it. 409 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:19,160 So even if Gollum still fails to have his reconciliatory moment 410 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,880 prior to his death for the souls of the people who had the chance 411 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,640 to to maybe intervene and, and, and his life earlier and chose 412 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,280 not to, it had both an instrumental benefit for this 413 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,600 sort of like fatalistic prophecy kind of element here that 414 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:39,160 Gandalf says of like, don't be wishing these ends upon people 415 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,560 because we really don't know the roles that people will play, 416 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,520 which is a wonderful, beautiful lesson. 417 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,320 It reminds me of if you haven't read the the book or seen the 418 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,240 movie of just mercy, it kind of reminds me of that. 419 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,800 It takes like a really wise person to say something like 420 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,440 this. And this isn't even getting into 421 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,120 the different personalities of Christ and theology. 422 00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:02,240 And in literature, Aragorn might just represent the Divine King 423 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,240 version of it, whereas Frodo and or Sam might represent the 424 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,680 meekness version of Christ who is not royal in that kind of 425 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,040 way. Whatever they're. 426 00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:13,640 All I'm saying is that Tolkien knows how to use symbolism and 427 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,000 he is very good at it. The fact that I just basically 428 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,680 ranted about it for 15 minutes or however long that was with 429 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:24,160 basically no script because I'm still processing it, right? 430 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,200 Like it's such an interesting story where you, you know, 431 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,640 there's poetry in it, you can feel it, but it's hard to know. 432 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,960 It doesn't just feed it to you either. 433 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,640 It's meant to be powerful imagery that sticks with you 434 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,800 that you're meant to chew on in the same way. 435 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,360 Like one of the stories I love about the Bible that I often 436 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:46,680 come back to is the idea that in Exodus, God hardens Pharaoh's 437 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,880 heart. Like why does God keep hardening 438 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,760 Pharaoh's heart? That's strange. 439 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,080 Is it saying that Pharaoh is not an agent with free will? 440 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,080 That his actions are predetermined in some way? 441 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,000 Or is it that God is confirming him and his own stubbornness 442 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,400 that pre existed God's intervention? 443 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,160 And also why was he was God intervening in this way to 444 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,360 enforce a story or a fate for for the Israelites or something 445 00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:16,080 else? I think what's interesting about 446 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,600 the Bible, but especially parts of Jewish tradition, is that is 447 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,080 very much based upon asking these questions and long, long 448 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:28,680 debates for hundreds of years that ask questions and are meant 449 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,000 to be this sort of like this is what yeshiva is for, right? 450 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,640 You're supposed to just be sort of like processing this 451 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,360 information, asking these questions and engage in 452 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,760 theological debate because there is not a discreet answer to all 453 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,400 of it. Maybe some people think there 454 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,480 is. Classical texts are often more 455 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,520 of an invitation to a discussion rather than something that's 456 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,960 presenting you with the answer. And I think Tolkien using 457 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,120 symbolism in this way is a very sophisticated guide at 458 00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:58,000 presenting these ideas to you with elements where the Christ 459 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,280 figure shows up across many characters. 460 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,040 And it's not a simple one. In fact, even as I'm saying 461 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,000 this, you know who Gollum reminds me of is Judas Iscariot, 462 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,080 where Judas is someone that, you know, gets paid his thirty 463 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,040 pieces of silver to betray Jesus and then commit suicide. 464 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,360 But the resurrection story does not happen without Judas's 465 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,280 betrayal. And this is one of those parts 466 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,960 of the Christian tradition that has long baffled people. 467 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,640 A more recent version of this that is not considered to be 468 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,640 theologically sound, but it's still in pop culture, reasons is 469 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,640 important is in The Last Temptation of Christ, Jesus 470 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,960 actually tells Judas to betray him. 471 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,040 And granted, it's Willem Dafoe telling Harvey Keitel that, but 472 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,280 it still happens. And there's actually a book that 473 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,640 I really love that a friend of mine wrote. 474 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,680 It's a graphic novel about Judas, called Judas A very 475 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,760 appropriately, and it's about how after Judas dies in certain 476 00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:02,680 Christian traditions, specifically in Catholicism, 477 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,080 there's a moment called the Harrowing of Hell. 478 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,800 So Jesus is dead for three days before he rises again in the 479 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,800 story. And during that time, Jesus is 480 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,360 in hell. And one of the traditional 481 00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:20,920 elements of the Harrowing of Hell story is that Jesus leads 482 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,160 the noble pagans to heaven because they died before they 483 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,720 had a chance to know him. So he brings the Jewish 484 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,920 patriarchs, he brings the philosophers from Athens like 485 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,840 he, he brings the people who died before they had a chance 486 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,400 to, to learn of the new dispensation that Jesus offers. 487 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,200 And so Jeff Loveness wrote this graphic novel about Judas. 488 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,720 And Judas is not typically considered to be included in the 489 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,720 Harrowing of Hell. But what if he was? 490 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:53,320 His story was deeply tragic, it was necessary for the entire 491 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,480 narrative to even happen. And I suspect even though he 492 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:03,640 died by suicide, we can also interpret that action as being 493 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,120 evidence of his remorse, and therefore remorse making one 494 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,080 eligible for grace and for mercy. 495 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,760 Perhaps Judas in the Harrowing of Hell story should be elevated 496 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,240 out of hell and taken to paradise with Jesus. 497 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,720 Relatedly, I once heard someone say that God's mercy exists 498 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,600 between the bridge and the water, which I was. 499 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,840 That was such a kind, beautiful sentiment. 500 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,200 I think mercy should be so encompassing if it is to exist. 501 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,920 I'm not to always go back to Les Mis, but I'm kind of salty that 502 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,760 Javert doesn't get to sing in the choir. 503 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,000 Angelic at the end of the musical, it doesn't seem that he 504 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,440 go gave Javert much thought after his own suicide into the 505 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,960 sin and I think Javert deserves mercy as well. 506 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,240 So I'm I'm sympathetic to the redemption of villains. 507 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,600 I probably attributed to watching a lot of episodes 4-5 508 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,080 and six of Star Wars as a kid and loving Darth Vader's ark. 509 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,600 I think that's such a such a wonderful thing. 510 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,120 I think that really the story very, very nicely together. 511 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,400 But anyways, in a, in a show full of digressions, I digress. 512 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,440 If you've listened to previous shows where theology has come 513 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:19,600 up, I often really want this version of Mercy to be so much 514 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,640 more present in our culture because it's it's so missing in 515 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,440 the Divine Comedy. Judas is down there with Brutus, 516 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,760 full circle. I didn't expect to be talking 517 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,560 about that today with Brutus and Cassius. 518 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,880 I believe it's like the three of them, you know, Judas is that 519 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,440 far down and Dante and the Harrowing can even still reach 520 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,920 him then. I love that. 521 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,440 And related to this, I love the idea in CS Lewis has this line, 522 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:53,240 I forget where it's from, and he says something about how hell is 523 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,880 locked from the inside. So I thought was a really 524 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,680 interesting idea. Some of the portrayals of people 525 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,760 who are suffering even in Dante, they're so obsessed with their 526 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,680 own suffering and their own interest that they don't even 527 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,600 necessarily know that they need to ask for forgiveness. 528 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,600 And if you take the CS Lewis line and apply it to the Dante, 529 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,520 then someone presumably in Hell at this position could maybe 530 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,240 acknowledge their sins and then find their way to Purgatory and 531 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,240 this way of understanding. And this is a great moment to go 532 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,320 right back to Leaf by Niggle. So Niggle is on his journey. 533 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,960 He's sleepy. He's like kind of passed out and 534 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,720 he ends up in a station where he's shuffled along by people 535 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,040 and it ends up at a workhouse, which, you know, I don't. 536 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,840 I don't know how much you know about Victorian British history, 537 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,840 but not a very nice place, a place where the indigent would 538 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:54,480 go and perform various types of work and made not to starve. 539 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,080 They were not comfortable places. 540 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,840 They were not very nice places, but they were an attempt to 541 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,240 provide welfare in its early days. 542 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,320 But he actually takes to it really well. 543 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,560 He does relatively menial tasks and Niggle, does carpentry and 544 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,840 he's involved in the building of various things. 545 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,840 And soon enough, he forgets much about his life and what he was 546 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,200 worried about, forgetting when he didn't have anything to bring 547 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,440 with them when the driver showed up, and is more focused on where 548 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,560 he is now than what was happening in his life. 549 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,520 And then he gets transferred to a much more menial task of I 550 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,080 think just digging holes, digging ditches. 551 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,800 And that's not great. But even still, he rises to it 552 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,720 and sort of takes to it in his own way and has no idea how long 553 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,760 he's been at it. And at one point when he's 554 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:46,080 resting, he hears 2 people debating the course of his life. 555 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,120 And as it's often the case, especially if you've listened to 556 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,000 this podcast on theological episodes, the two people arguing 557 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,080 represent mercy and justice. And justice is making the case. 558 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:03,280 That niggle was so self involved that he only viewed his his, you 559 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,640 know, charitable obligations as interruptions from his prime 560 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,920 duty, his painting that he wasn't even that good at. 561 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,800 And yet he had a hard time helping his neighbor whose house 562 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,680 was falling down. And and he was so obsessed with 563 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,680 this dumb painting that gosh, niggles just really not 564 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,160 deserving of any amount of mercy. 565 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,000 And mercy was saying that after Nickel did these things, he 566 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,400 never thought about it again. He didn't necessarily think that 567 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,920 Paris should have thanked him to a greater extent. 568 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,000 He didn't feel entitled to a greater amount of gratitude. 569 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,520 He just did the thing that he had to do. 570 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,440 And maybe he didn't love it, but he also didn't resent it after 571 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:42,920 the fact. He kind of just moved on with 572 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,920 his life and try to get back to his painting and his painting 573 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,840 was often times that of noticing the world around him and was a 574 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,720 lovely thing. And they they talk about how the 575 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,720 tree as a whole is not that great, but he was amazing at 576 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,800 painting Leafs and he painted one leaf in particular that was 577 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,640 truly sublime. And as they're debating Nichols 578 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:06,320 life, Mercy gets the last word. And Nickel did know that he had 579 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,760 a chance of not being able to finish his painting. 580 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,679 Should he go on the bike ride to try to bring the doctor and the 581 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,000 builder from town to help Missus Parrish. 582 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,560 And he did it anyways. He had an intuition or a feeling 583 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,600 like this was, this might be the last trip I'm able to go on and 584 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,440 it's going to cost me time to finish my painting. 585 00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:30,800 And he still went. And so Mercy argues persuasively 586 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:36,600 that Justice would be better served by being gentle with 587 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,600 niggle. And Niggle is so thankful 588 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,719 because he does not believe himself to be deserving of this 589 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,040 mercy at all, that in fact many of the things that are said 590 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,719 about him appear to him to be true. 591 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,800 That what Justice says about his behavior was self-serving, 592 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:57,360 obsessive, insular in ways that are not really what the law, 593 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,280 either truly legalistic law in his life or the moral law of 594 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,680 Christianity demands of him during his life. 595 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:10,400 And so the two interlocutors ask Niggle if he has anything to say 596 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,160 for himself. They notice that he's listening. 597 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,360 And Niggle takes the opportunity to ask how Parrish is doing 598 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,600 because he knows he has a a lame leg. 599 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,880 That's why he had to go on the bike for Parrish, because 600 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:24,520 Parrish's leg was bad and couldn't get there himself. 601 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,520 And they say that Parrish hasn't arrived here yet. 602 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,920 But Niggle make sure to to specify that Parrish gave him a 603 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,080 number of potatoes that saved him time. 604 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,040 In fact, early in the short story, it's revealed that Niggle 605 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,440 had a potato field, but he put a barn over it so he could paint 606 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,240 more stuff. So Parrish is also taking care 607 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:51,440 of him because Niggle made a decision to prioritize art. 608 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,800 And Niggle make sure that Mercy and Justice know that Parrish 609 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,880 did these things for him, even though Parrish maybe didn't even 610 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,040 understand the art that he was trying to to make. 611 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,920 And so they keep that in mind. Mercy wins the day. 612 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,920 Niggle is put back on the train and is taken to a beautiful 613 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,680 environment that seems so familiar to him. 614 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,160 And it seems so familiar because it's the place where the tree 615 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,040 that he's been trying to paint his entire life is. 616 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,880 He looks at it and not only is the tree there, but everything 617 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,280 that he would have painted had he the skill, had he the time 618 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,240 that expands beyond the tree is also there. 619 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,640 He's just over the moon. He's, I mean, this is a 620 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,000 wonderful experience for him. This is essentially as far as I 621 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,000 can understand, and the podcast talks about how this is sort of 622 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,320 taking the model from Dante. This is Paradise and he's at the 623 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,880 start of working through Paradise. 624 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,320 It seems like he broadly skipped hell in my understanding. 625 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,520 He went to Purgatory and now he's at the bottom of Paradise. 626 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,440 And this is where it comes back to what it means to be 627 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,480 vocational. What's interesting about this 628 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,560 set up here is that Niggle's tree that he was trying to paint 629 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,680 his entire life was not something that was generated 630 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,440 from within his own mind. Niggle's tree is a 631 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:18,160 transcendental form. It exists outside of the human 632 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,800 mind. It may be in fact divine 633 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:26,120 reality, and the artist can only ever reflect it back to one's 634 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,360 peers into history in an imperfect and incomplete way. 635 00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:35,040 For instance, after Niggle dies, the people in the town and the 636 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,440 building inspector are debating about what to do with Niggles 637 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,000 canvases and they use them for practical purposes to patch 638 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,760 houses, specifically Parishes house. 639 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,560 But they do save one leaf as a painting that's a perfectly 640 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:53,600 painted leaf and they they take it eventually ends up in a 641 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:58,320 museum where it is called leaf by niggle and is admired by all 642 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,560 as an example of a perfect leaf painting. 643 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:07,200 It's like the smallest artistic triumph that niggle achieved in 644 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:08,840 life. The smallest representation of 645 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,920 this tree was still beautiful in this kind of way, divisible even 646 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,400 down to the leaf, to the single leaf. 647 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,200 It's still that important of a thing to reflect back. 648 00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:23,240 Ultimately the museum burns down, which is a very funny 649 00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:27,360 ironic thing about what it means to have legacy on earth. 650 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,400 Ozzie Mandy and kind of arrogance. 651 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,640 You know, look on my works. He mighty and despair. 652 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,800 Who even was Ozzie Mandy is who even cares kind of deal. 653 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,720 But what I love about this is that feels his entire life that 654 00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:46,040 he's he's working on something that is transcendental that it's 655 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:47,480 something that he's communicating. 656 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,240 It doesn't even come from within him. 657 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:55,280 The artist role is to reflect back some divine, universal, 658 00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:00,000 transcendental truth or beauty. This is the aesthetics of 659 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,360 Tolkien. This is what the work is meant 660 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,440 to be when it's truly transcendental. 661 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,040 Soon enough, Parish ends up in the same environment with 662 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:16,400 Niggle, and they end up building a house together and being 663 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,080 engaged in the practical work of just like being in this 664 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:21,480 environment. They, they, they sort of just 665 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,360 know that they're meant to build a house together and work 666 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,760 together. Niggle does much more of the 667 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,600 construction, even though Parish is the one who's much better 668 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,240 with practical things. And Parish spends much more time 669 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:35,040 wandering around the woods and staring at leaves and just 670 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,960 appreciating nature. And one Parish sees the tree 671 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,440 that Niggles been trying to paint. 672 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,440 Parish realizes what a fool he's been that he didn't realize that 673 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:50,560 Niggle was trying to paint this reflection of divine truth for 674 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,080 his friends and for his neighbors and for his community, 675 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,320 that this was actually a really important thing to do. 676 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,680 And Parrish is so sorry that he bothered Niggle so many ties 677 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,120 with things that were frankly less important than trying to 678 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:04,720 find ways to reflect divine truth. 679 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,240 And Niggle apologizes in turn that he prioritized that to such 680 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:13,640 an extent that he was not able to wholeheartedly give to 681 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,240 perish. And now that they're in this 682 00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:20,880 world together, they sort of reverse their roles and they 683 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,720 both developed the parts of their personality that we're 684 00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:24,480 lacking. You, of course, need to be a 685 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,680 good member of the community and to nourish the practical needs 686 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,520 of your friends and neighbors and community members. 687 00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:33,560 But you also are meant to find these reflections of divine 688 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,000 truth and appreciate them. But it's also constitutive of a 689 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,240 life well lived. 1 doesn't necessarily need to have one or 690 00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:42,960 the other, but it's it's a combination of both, at least in 691 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,600 this particular telling. The story concludes by them 692 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,440 meeting a shepherd who's passing through their little beautiful 693 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,880 spot. Niggle wants to see what lies 694 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,280 beyond the mountains above that he's been staring at and 695 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,760 painting behind his tree for so long, and decides to follow the 696 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,520 shepherd into the mountains and to see what else is out there in 697 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,840 this divine space. He's ready to to move on while 698 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,040 Parrish decides to wait for his wife, who he knows is short and 699 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,360 coming because he knows his wife would want him to wait for her. 700 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,440 The train stop, which had previously been unnamed. 701 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,840 It is decided that will now be called Niggles Parish. 702 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:27,560 And that's sort of the end. They they love that. 703 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,840 And then they both proceed with no more documentation of their 704 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,600 story of the afterlife. This show feels vocational to me 705 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,280 too. And many of the shows that I've 706 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,680 done recently that have been more emotional and content, more 707 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,560 theological, more existential. The shows that I'm doing about 708 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,480 what it means to be a human during very hard times, what it 709 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,640 means when the world is dangerous and changing, and the 710 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,120 kinds of things that we should be thinking about and preparing 711 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:02,960 our souls to undergo. Those feel vocational to me when 712 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,520 I do that work. And I do that well. 713 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,840 And this will sound a little bit like Ernest Hemingway, but like 714 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,360 when I put down something into this podcast that I know is true 715 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:17,640 and it's from the heart in this kind of way, I very much feel 716 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:23,920 like Niggle reflecting back a divine reality to the listener. 717 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,200 And what I love about that way of understanding the creative 718 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:33,640 process here is that it doesn't actually make me smart or 719 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,200 elevate me in any way. What I'm drawing from, what I'm 720 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:43,560 speaking about, topics of this nature do not originate from 721 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:48,560 within me. They are me channeling wisdom 722 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,360 traditions or the wisdom tradition of the world. 723 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,240 It's essentially me trying to channel the wisdom traditions 724 00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:00,400 that precede me. Any of those shows that you can 725 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,000 listen to where I'm talking about different theologies and 726 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,320 and different stories of people who have gone through hard times 727 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:13,320 and and develop some amount of wisdom, I can't take credit for 728 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:14,240 any of it. It's not. 729 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,520 It's something that is truly democratic and universal that 730 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,760 anyone can plug into. I really don't think there's any 731 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,960 gatekeeper whatsoever. I think there's a reason why so 732 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:28,680 much converges around the same themes with people that we 733 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,440 consider to be sufficiently wise to discourse on things of this 734 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:38,160 nature. And it mostly is about how your 735 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:48,480 time in your body is limited, that kindness is important, that 736 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:55,640 showing a great amount of love is what you can be proud of, and 737 00:43:55,640 --> 00:44:00,960 to not be so afraid of death that one will do anything to 738 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,760 avoid it. There are so many different ways 739 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,360 to plug into the world's wisdom traditions. 740 00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:11,360 I'm Catholic, but I'm also a very ecumenical person. 741 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:17,280 I like to read widely and when I have a chance to, to channel 742 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,360 some of this information through reading and reflecting on on 743 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:26,400 what it means to be human at this particular moment in time, 744 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,320 I do feel like I'm tapping into something that is much deeper 745 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:35,840 than an audio essay that I am so smart for having created. 746 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,440 I really it's, it's I honestly just feel like this is something 747 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,720 that exists outside of me that I'm reflecting back to my peers 748 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,880 and I hope that there's a small leaf of it that can be 749 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,240 appreciated. That was like, wow, that really 750 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:55,320 was a divinely inspired piece of art. 751 00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:59,400 The one this show is good. I want it to be art, and I want 752 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,520 it to be art that reflects back some amount of divine truth. 753 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,800 And I mean that in the broadest, most ecumenical sense here as 754 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,040 well. And it's also so funny to pair 755 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:20,040 shows like this with shows that are such intensely nerdy inside 756 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:21,920 baseball about carbon dioxide removal. 757 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,000 I recognize that it just show has many personalities and is a 758 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,600 a vessel for so many different ideas. 759 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,000 I hope that there's room enough in your heart for both of those 760 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,360 things. I think they both are important 761 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:38,400 to be super practical and to be dealing with art that is 762 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:44,360 reflective of what I hope to be sort of a universal democratic, 763 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,200 divine truths that we all have access to if we have the right 764 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:53,720 ears to listen. And is that not exactly how it 765 00:45:53,720 --> 00:46:00,040 is with parish and Niggle? The podcast has both of them. 766 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,440 This is a niggle show. The parish shows are are ones 767 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:09,000 about private equities and involvement in the biochar 768 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:14,920 industry. That's funny, I did did not 769 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:16,480 expect that. That link to come. 770 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:21,560 That's cracking me up. If you have any sort of thing 771 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,400 that makes you feel the way that I do when I'm talking about 772 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:30,000 Nichols Tree and his art as reflecting back that 773 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:36,080 transcendental platonic form of beauty of truth, go do that. 774 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,880 I honestly think that that kind of thing you almost can't go 775 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:41,840 wrong with. You might look a little bit 776 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,280 silly, you're going to sound a little woo sometimes, but 777 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,360 honestly, I think creation like that can be truly vocational 778 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,960 when one taps into that type of spiritual calling. 779 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,720 I think it can be that when I find that I can bring something 780 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,880 back from Nichols Parish, my own version of it, at least I'm 781 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,200 trying to. I do feel like I'm on, I'm on 782 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,720 the right track when I'm there and when I'm doing that work, I 783 00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:16,920 think it's more than the exact right financial mechanisms for 784 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,000 making sure that carbon removal can survive a period of 785 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,640 geopolitical reshuffling and uncertainty. 786 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,040 I think the heart portion of this is going to be the thing 787 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:34,800 that makes the difference. I think ultimately this policy 788 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:39,520 work is going to be dependent upon how we mature as a global 789 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,760 civilization. I don't think the policy will 790 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:49,120 ever be robust enough without spiritual maturation, because 791 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:54,320 there are always going to be very practical reasons to to 792 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,680 follow the discount rate and to do the easy thing now, but not 793 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,280 the hard thing. Anything that brings wisdom back 794 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:09,120 from that Platonic realm, that can coax us out of the 795 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,480 competition that we feel with other people, with other 796 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,920 individuals, with other countries, and can inspire those 797 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,960 transcendental feelings, I think is truly doing divinely inspired 798 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:26,360 work, vocational work. Even if we know that our work 799 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:31,800 while alive, we'll end up in a museum that will ultimately burn 800 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,240 down. Same as leaf by niggle, The work 801 00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:40,600 is still worth doing for its own sake, and even if it is not 802 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,040 permanent, it can still be invaluable. 803 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,800 Somebody will say that if a podcast I make reaches one 804 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,520 person, I consider that to be good enough for this. 805 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,760 If one person listens to this and says wow, I never thought 806 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,640 about it this way and like that really, I really connected with 807 00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:57,800 that. I love getting notes like that. 808 00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,360 Feel free to send them to me if you ever feel passionate enough 809 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,520 to to do so. But also, I'm recreating my own 810 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,720 soul in the process of making this too. 811 00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:09,720 So even if no one listened to this, in the process of me 812 00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:12,840 explaining this and exploring this, I'm also trying to change 813 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:17,120 my own heart, my own soul, my own relationship with all that 814 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,920 is. And you can do that too. 815 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:25,680 Thanks for listening. I hope you'll find a way to heed 816 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,400 the vocational call and something that feels 817 00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:33,640 transcendental to you. I'm grateful for you listening, 818 00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:35,920 I really am. Thank you so much for being a 819 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,880 part of this show. If you're listening to the very 820 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,880 end here, I know how many things there are to do in life. 821 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,400 You chose to spend it with me. I do not take that for granted. 822 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,200 I've said that before and I'll keep saying it. 823 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:53,160 I do sincerely appreciate you. That's all for now. 824 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:54,320 Good luck.