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Hello and welcome to the 20 00:00:58,208 --> 00:00:59,800 reversing climate change podcast. 21 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,600 I'm Ross Kenyon today, I have with me dr. 22 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,200 Leah, Stokes assistant, professor of political science 23 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,200 at UC Santa Barbara Leah. Thanks for being here. 24 00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:11,100 Oh, thanks so much for having me on indeed. 25 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:14,800 One of the things I like to do and look for is one interesting 26 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,700 books, get published and then I get to make your publicist job 27 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:20,500 easier because I just reach out to them and say, hey, I like 28 00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:22,400 this book. I think it will be very cool if 29 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,500 you sent me a copy and I could read it and then interview this 30 00:01:24,500 --> 00:01:29,200 person and they typically take the bait and it appears that 31 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,600 your people have taken. In the bait to. 32 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:32,900 So thank you for for coming here, to talk about your new 33 00:01:32,900 --> 00:01:34,600 book. Short-circuiting, policy 34 00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:37,500 interest groups and the battle over clean energy, and climate 35 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:40,800 policy in the American states. There's a lot there Leah. 36 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,600 I'm excited to dig into so much of this political science stuff, 37 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,900 that we have not really given the full shrift to yet. 38 00:01:47,500 --> 00:01:50,100 Yeah, that's great. Now, my title is super long 39 00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:53,200 because I had to put all the words on the cover it appears. 40 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:59,800 So who who made you have such a gigantic subtitle I made? 41 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,200 And when you're an academic, you get to make the decision. 42 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,200 So yep. It's descriptive. 43 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:11,500 So I suppose that works well. Broadly how did you conceive the 44 00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:14,000 book? What are you trying to cover and 45 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,500 convey and to whom are you trying to convey it? 46 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:17,600 Who is your audience? Who are you? 47 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,100 Trying to reach with it? Yeah totally. 48 00:02:20,100 --> 00:02:25,600 So I started this book back in 2013 and I wanted to understand 49 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,300 what was happening with clean energy and climate laws. 50 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,800 A lot of the action was At the state level. 51 00:02:31,300 --> 00:02:33,600 So that's what the book tends to focus on. 52 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,000 But of course, there are also Federal policies that are 53 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:42,400 complementary, so I started to do interviews in various States. 54 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,900 And what I quickly discovered was that there were attacks 55 00:02:45,900 --> 00:02:50,100 playing out against clean energy and I wanted to understand more 56 00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:52,800 about that. So, the book relies on 57 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:57,600 interviews, archives data, from things like the Energy 58 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,600 Information Administration and I also Did a survey of state 59 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,300 legislators and their staff while I was writing this book. 60 00:03:04,300 --> 00:03:07,200 So some of the information comes from that too. 61 00:03:07,700 --> 00:03:10,100 So yeah. The intended audience I would 62 00:03:10,100 --> 00:03:16,200 say is professionals working on clean energy and climate policy 63 00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:20,300 as well as of course, academics interested in climate policy. 64 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:24,600 But I also think that the general public who has really 65 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,200 woken up to the climate crisis over the past two years or so. 66 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:30,900 I think. That people who want to 67 00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:33,600 understand these issues in more detail, will get a lot out of 68 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,300 reading the book and some people who I know who are reading it, 69 00:03:36,300 --> 00:03:39,700 who aren't experts in anyway or working on these topics. 70 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:42,000 They've told me that it's very accessible to. 71 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,400 So I think it has the potential to have wide readership and I 72 00:03:45,408 --> 00:03:48,400 encourage people to pick up a copy and check it out. 73 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,700 Great, I hope you do. There are links in the show 74 00:03:50,700 --> 00:03:54,700 notes if you would like to do so Leah, I have a difficult 75 00:03:54,700 --> 00:03:58,600 relationship with policy. I care about ideas, I care about 76 00:03:58,900 --> 00:04:02,100 how government works. I care about the place that I 77 00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:04,900 live in, you know, basic human stuff for the most part. 78 00:04:05,100 --> 00:04:08,300 But I find the political process and policy very frustrating. 79 00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:12,800 A lot of the time I feel like by the time policy is finished 80 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,200 being made and is in law. Not only does it change through 81 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,300 that entire process but then also how it is administered. 82 00:04:19,300 --> 00:04:22,100 And applied is also may be different from it was intended. 83 00:04:22,100 --> 00:04:25,500 Sometimes I just find the process kind of discouraging and 84 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:28,900 opaque and hard to follow and hard to participate in how much 85 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:31,100 of that is a cop-out. What is there like a different 86 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:31,700 way? I should see it. 87 00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:34,700 That might make me feel less alienated by the process. 88 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,800 Yeah, well I think that what you're experiencing is pretty 89 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,500 common and I talked about that a lot in the book policy is 90 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:47,300 difficult to follow, and in part it's intentionally that way I 91 00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:50,400 developed this idea called the fog of enactment which is 92 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,900 basically the point that, you know, laws can be really 93 00:04:53,900 --> 00:04:56,300 complicated, and it can be difficult to understand what's 94 00:04:56,300 --> 00:04:57,800 happening. While it's happening. 95 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,500 Nancy Pelosi years ago, And I think it was the Affordable Care 96 00:05:01,500 --> 00:05:04,900 Act was being passed. She said, you know, we need to 97 00:05:04,900 --> 00:05:08,800 get people to understand these issues away from, you know, the 98 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,700 difficulty of the legislative process. 99 00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:13,100 I don't remember the exact quote, but it's in my book and 100 00:05:13,100 --> 00:05:15,700 people attacked her for that. But what she was really saying, 101 00:05:15,700 --> 00:05:18,000 was that interest groups politicize things, they make 102 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,800 things more complicated than they are. 103 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,700 They hide certain things, or they highlight other things and 104 00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:25,100 so policy can be really difficult to follow. 105 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,200 However, it is the really critical thing for solving 106 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,300 climate change. In my view, I view climate 107 00:05:32,300 --> 00:05:35,700 change as an Institutional political problem right now with 108 00:05:35,700 --> 00:05:38,500 the coronavirus crisis, you know, all of us are staying 109 00:05:38,500 --> 00:05:40,200 home. We've made massive changes to 110 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,400 our lifestyle and yet emissions are going to fall maybe four or 111 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,200 five percent this year, that's it. 112 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,400 So, I think what people need to understand is that the big 113 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:54,300 levers of change, our policy to get companies like Electric 114 00:05:54,300 --> 00:05:56,900 utilities, fossil fuel corporations to change their 115 00:05:56,900 --> 00:05:59,700 behavior, and that is how we can transform. 116 00:05:59,900 --> 00:06:03,100 Energy System and actually make progress and we're going to 117 00:06:03,108 --> 00:06:06,400 definitely get into what are the roles of these various groups 118 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,600 and what should individuals do and how much sleep should they 119 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,500 be losing versus focusing on more institutional change later 120 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:16,600 in the show? But I think maybe to give a nice 121 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,400 Baseline for the audience. What exactly makes a good 122 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,300 policy. We've had people on before, like 123 00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:25,100 we had Bryan Caplan, who's an economist. 124 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:27,500 He likes the keyhole approach 4 from anything. 125 00:06:27,500 --> 00:06:29,500 So, a carbon tax is pretty narrow. 126 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,400 Right. It doesn't have a lot included 127 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:32,800 in that and compare that to something much more 128 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,300 comprehensive, like the green New Deal, which tries to do 129 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,500 quite a lot. There are definitely trade-offs 130 00:06:37,500 --> 00:06:40,900 in these various approaches and it also depends on what is being 131 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:44,800 legislated over like maybe. Maybe a green New Deal is 132 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,800 appropriate for something like climate change, but a keyhole 133 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,300 solution might be better for some other sort set of problem 134 00:06:49,300 --> 00:06:51,100 that we're trying to create policy around. 135 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:54,400 How do we determine? What is a good policy and what 136 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,500 to strive for? And when Yeah. 137 00:06:56,500 --> 00:07:00,100 Well, I'm a big fan of clean electricity standards. 138 00:07:00,100 --> 00:07:02,500 I'm a big fan of standards across the board. 139 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:05,300 I think with climate change, what we need to do is set the 140 00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:08,700 rules of the road. We have to say look this 141 00:07:08,700 --> 00:07:12,100 industry has to meet these benchmarks to has to clean up by 142 00:07:12,100 --> 00:07:15,700 these dates and you know, that's where we've seen a lot of the 143 00:07:15,700 --> 00:07:18,400 progress. It isn't just by trying to send 144 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,000 Market signals. It Is by setting rules and 145 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:26,400 requirements by deadlines. So I'm a big fan of what I Call 146 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,600 the standards Investments and Equity approach or Justice 147 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,100 approach. So I think we got to set 148 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:36,800 standards for electricity for buildings for transportation and 149 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,800 if we do that actually, that's about 70% of the problem in the 150 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,400 United States, 70. So that gets us a huge part of 151 00:07:44,407 --> 00:07:47,900 the problem done. And the way we can do that is by 152 00:07:47,900 --> 00:07:50,800 having our federal government invest money into it. 153 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,000 A lot of the Democratic primary was a debate about how much 154 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,100 money is going to be spent by various, Candidates and I think 155 00:07:58,100 --> 00:08:01,000 a lot of people can feel like climate changes is overwhelming 156 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,800 and possible issue, but sometimes I think about how 157 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:08,700 we've never really even tried to solve it and if we put money on 158 00:08:08,700 --> 00:08:11,700 the table and actually tried to solve it and set standards and 159 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:14,500 rules, we could make a lot of progress. 160 00:08:14,500 --> 00:08:18,000 This is really the Inslee approach and the people who 161 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,500 wrote those ideas are now started a new organization 162 00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:22,700 called The Evergreen Alliance which I'm an advisor to. 163 00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:25,900 And I really think that their approach is brilliant and then 164 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,600 See we need to have. We think about Justice, right? 165 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,900 We know that historic pollution has pushed the burden onto black 166 00:08:33,900 --> 00:08:37,400 and brown communities. Disproportionately, we can't do 167 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,200 that with the solutions as well. Meaning that kerbin prices while 168 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,100 they're really great and they would shut down coal, which I 169 00:08:45,100 --> 00:08:48,200 strongly support. They're also a regressive policy 170 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,900 that raises the cost of people's energy bills and can be 171 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:56,700 politicized fairly easily. So I tend to favor Nerds over 172 00:08:56,700 --> 00:08:58,700 those kinds of market-based mechanisms. 173 00:08:58,900 --> 00:09:01,700 But, look, I'll take any climate policy, you want a carbon price, 174 00:09:01,700 --> 00:09:03,800 and that's what we can get done. Let's get that done. 175 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,400 Because right now, what we're seeing is that the federal 176 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,700 government is spending what 4 or 5 trillion dollars on this 177 00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:13,100 crisis and no money is going towards clean energy. 178 00:09:13,100 --> 00:09:15,600 If anything there are big concerns that money is going to 179 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,000 go towards bailing out. The fossil fuel industry. 180 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:23,000 So we've got to get some stuff done on climate change in 2021. 181 00:09:23,100 --> 00:09:27,500 This is well, past overdue. I Brought appropriate Nuance to 182 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:30,100 all that and you definitely don't want a yellow jacket 183 00:09:30,100 --> 00:09:32,700 situation coming about as a result of a carbon tax. 184 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:35,900 And yeah, I can see how that would be quite regressive to and 185 00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:38,400 we've talked about standards and we typically refer to them as 186 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,100 performance standards. If we are exactly talking about 187 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:45,500 the same thing, but we had David Roberts on recently and one of 188 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:48,400 our colleagues who is an economist, all in Donnelly, big 189 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,500 fans of, you know setting like basically how like got out of 190 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:54,600 gasoline saying You must reduce the lead content of gasoline by 191 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,800 X percent every year And it doesn't matter how you do that. 192 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,400 That's up to you to determine. Is that what you mean by setting 193 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,400 standards like people? Yes. 194 00:10:02,500 --> 00:10:04,000 Okay. So you're not, you're not by 195 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:05,800 Fiat saying, like, every little thing that must be done, you're 196 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:07,700 saying, get to this goal, figure it out. 197 00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:09,800 Yeah, exactly. That's what a renewable 198 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,800 portfolio standard is that is the policy that my book really 199 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,300 focuses on. And when we think about the 200 00:10:15,300 --> 00:10:17,900 progress, we've actually made in cleaning up our electricity 201 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:19,700 system. Renewable portfolio. 202 00:10:19,700 --> 00:10:21,500 Standards. Have done an enormous amount of 203 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:24,700 the work combined with Investments that being the 204 00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:27,400 investment tax credit and the Production tax credit, that's 205 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,400 Federal money basically. So I think we need to set 206 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,000 standards not just for electricity and a couple States 207 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,800 but for electricity in all 50 states and then we got to 208 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,500 combine that with standards on electric vehicles. 209 00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:43,800 You know, how many electric vehicles are we supposed to try 210 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,200 to be getting out by certain years? 211 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,500 These are things like zero emission, vehicles have policies 212 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,600 and then we got to do it on buildings to we got to say, you 213 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,000 know the Inslee team has talked about retrofitting 4% of the 214 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,500 building stock every year. So, it would take 25 years to 215 00:10:57,500 --> 00:11:02,100 turn over the building stock. So, you know, we know we have to 216 00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:06,900 do things to keep warming to safe levels, not that one degree 217 00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:08,700 Celsius, which is what we've already warm. 218 00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:11,800 The planet is a safe level, but if we assume one point five 219 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,800 degrees Celsius is what we're going to try to do. 220 00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:17,000 Guess what we can't build any new fossil fuel infrastructure 221 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,400 and we need our government to set the rules of the road to 222 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,300 say, here's the glidepath down. Here's what we need to be doing 223 00:11:23,300 --> 00:11:28,000 every year to keep on. Back with what's necessary. 224 00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:31,900 Yeah, I tend to be favorable towards that standards approach 225 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,500 because it seems to take what I like best about Market 226 00:11:34,500 --> 00:11:37,100 approaches which is that they're, they're flexible, you 227 00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:40,000 can rely on individual initiative and companies to get 228 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,500 creative and to figuring out how to actually meet these standards 229 00:11:42,500 --> 00:11:45,900 without just determining everything ex ante and maybe 230 00:11:45,900 --> 00:11:47,400 that doesn't work for all players. 231 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,300 Or maybe it's there's some favoritism towards some but not 232 00:11:50,300 --> 00:11:52,000 others. I think, I think that's a pretty 233 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,200 smart way to go. One of the things you mentioned 234 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,200 here, Leah. You keep referring to, where In 235 00:11:56,300 --> 00:11:58,600 Washington. So, we watch with Jay Inslee, is 236 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,600 up to, what is the role? Do you think for States versus 237 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,200 the federal government right now? 238 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,000 It seems like State, specially, California, and Washington, and 239 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,600 others. New York other places, try to 240 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,400 try to be leaders in developing policies. 241 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,800 In this Laboratories of democracy smaller-scale, 242 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,400 subsidiarity Federalist kind of model, but they're clearly times 243 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,700 when that's an adequate or you have a race to the bottom kind 244 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:22,500 of scenario, or just doesn't really work, but then the 245 00:12:22,500 --> 00:12:24,400 federal government setting policy across the board. 246 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,700 Seems like that's a little too. Maybe it doesn't fit every state 247 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,000 as well as it could. What are the trade-offs? 248 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,200 And how do we know which one to apply? 249 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,800 And when well, I think that we have been experimenting with a 250 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:40,100 decentralized federalist approach to climate policy for 251 00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:43,100 about 30 years. And we can see very clearly. 252 00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:46,700 The limits of that we're behind on cleaning up our electricity 253 00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:49,300 system, we're behind on reducing our emissions. 254 00:12:49,700 --> 00:12:52,800 We've had States work together through things like Reggie, the 255 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,300 regional greenhouse gas initiative and the Northeast, 256 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,600 you know, we've I've had California try to Pioneer. 257 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,700 Its own approach and partner with other states and Canadian 258 00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:04,700 provinces to make progress and we're just not moving fast 259 00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:07,600 enough. The reality is that Advocates 260 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,200 have been trying since the 1990s to get a clean electricity 261 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,000 standard through Congress and Electric utilities fossil fuel 262 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,700 companies. They've just fought them every 263 00:13:16,700 --> 00:13:19,600 step of the way and we've never managed to enact one. 264 00:13:19,900 --> 00:13:22,900 People may not remember this, but the waxman-markey bill 265 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:25,200 included a clean electricity standard. 266 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,200 It wasn't just Sort of cap and trade program, which is what it 267 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,300 is. So well known for today, the 268 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:34,600 clean electricity standard was twenty percent Renewables by 269 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:39,700 2020 and of course, now we're in 2020 and we're not at that and 270 00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:43,000 there was some technical things where you could count efficiency 271 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,200 or other things towards it but you know, that would have set a 272 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,800 standard for every single state across the country. 273 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,200 And we need that because right now, we've got places like West 274 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,700 Virginia that are only getting five percent of their 275 00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:57,700 electricity. TriCity from clean energy 276 00:13:57,700 --> 00:14:00,300 sources. I think Delaware and Ohio are at 277 00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:04,200 like two or three percent renewable energy and Florida, 278 00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:07,700 which you may remember is a sunny Place, very impacted by 279 00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:10,200 climate change. There are fifteen percent clean 280 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,100 energy. So we can't have all these 281 00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:17,200 laggards across the country. We need everybody to be moving 282 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,700 along, not just the leaders, like Washington, State and 283 00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:24,000 California. New York as you mentioned, we 284 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,400 need a federal policy to Sure, that states across the country 285 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,200 are making progress, should that follow the same sort of 286 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,300 Standards model? Do you think that the federal 287 00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:35,600 government should set that and then States should find their 288 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,200 ways to comply with that? Is that the best way to do it? 289 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:41,400 Yeah, I do think so. I mean, in many ways, the clean 290 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,300 power plan which was built off of the Clean Air Act and the 291 00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:49,100 requirement to regulate CO2 as a pollutant because the 292 00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:51,400 endangerment finding because because of that court case 293 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,100 between Massachusetts and the EPA, you know, that was a I'll 294 00:14:56,100 --> 00:15:00,000 see that applied across the country that set targets for 295 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,800 everybody. And the clean power plan was 296 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,600 actually quite flexible and that some states had to do more other 297 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,400 states had to do less based on where they were at at the 298 00:15:07,408 --> 00:15:10,500 beginning of the policy. But then States could figure out 299 00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:12,600 exactly how they wanted to go about doing it. 300 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,700 So I could imagine that you set a standard at the federal level. 301 00:15:16,700 --> 00:15:19,300 And that states can Pioneer their own approaches and 302 00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:22,300 programs to getting it done. You could, for example, put a 303 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:26,900 price on carbon in some places and that would, as I Drive coal 304 00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:29,400 out of the electricity system, pretty darn quickly. 305 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,000 So that is an approach that a state could use to meet a 306 00:15:32,008 --> 00:15:35,200 standard. Or you could have renewable 307 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,000 portfolio, standard style approach, where you using 308 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,100 renewable energy certificates, which again has a sort of 309 00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:45,600 market-based mechanism to it. So we've got to get the work 310 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,300 done and the fact is that doing this work will create a lot of 311 00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:52,800 jobs and we're at a moment where so many people have lost their 312 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,000 jobs. So we need to be And ourselves, 313 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,300 can the federal government be steering the ship. 314 00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:04,300 What do we want the 21st century to look like in the United 315 00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:06,200 States? We're at a moment now where we 316 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,100 can choose to go in a New Direction and actually clean up 317 00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:12,400 our Energy System and protect Americans from climate impacts 318 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,800 that are already, you know, on our Shores. 319 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,800 Where do you think it makes sense for policy to be very 320 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,600 detailed and more detailed than a standards approach. 321 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,800 Are there places where things should be specified ex ante? 322 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:31,400 In great detail, just in law. Yeah, I mean a standard is 323 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,100 specifying targets and timetables and I think that's 324 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:36,900 the critical thing with climate change. 325 00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:40,000 We don't have infinite time if you think about other kinds of 326 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,900 public policies, you know, if we don't fix some kind of problem, 327 00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:47,300 it's not great. But you know, we can go and fix 328 00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:49,900 it later on. Oftentimes that isn't the case 329 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:53,600 with climate change as we accelerate warming, as we start 330 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,900 to push to higher higher levels of Temperature increases. 331 00:16:56,900 --> 00:17:00,600 We know that changes can be irreversible if we lose coral, 332 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,099 reefs, for example, you know, if we start to lose some of the 333 00:17:04,099 --> 00:17:09,500 Arctic permafrost, these things are not easy to reverse, and, or 334 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,200 really possible to reverse. And so, I think that climate 335 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:19,200 change requires a clear roadmap, it requires our government to 336 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,099 say to polluting Industries. Hey, you got to get on top of 337 00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:25,700 this problem and you've got to be cutting emissions by this 338 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:27,800 amount. Out by this date, that's really 339 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,300 what. The one point five degree report 340 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:34,700 that the ipcc published in 2018 was all about, it was saying 341 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:38,000 here's what you got to do to keep warming to 1.5 degrees 342 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,400 Celsius. And we know from people like 343 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,200 Steven Davis that that means no new fossil fuel infrastructure 344 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,100 can be built. So I think that standards can 345 00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:51,900 actually be quite detailed in terms of setting a direction for 346 00:17:51,900 --> 00:17:55,800 policy and making sure that the decisions that get made across. 347 00:17:55,900 --> 00:17:59,300 All different parts of society are moving in the right 348 00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:01,800 direction when it comes to reducing emissions. 349 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,800 You're a political scientist. So clearly, you like to geek out 350 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,600 on policy but not all of us are in that world. 351 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,700 So tightly. So what do you imagine people 352 00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:16,900 who are either acting as individuals, or in Civil Society 353 00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:19,900 or businesses? What are the roles for them? 354 00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:22,300 And how should they be thinking about climate policy? 355 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,800 Well, I think that a big challenge that we saw with the 356 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:31,800 waxman-markey bill back in 2009, was that there was not enough 357 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,000 public support behind the bill Theta Scotch pull of very 358 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:41,200 well-known and excellent scholar at Harvard University wrote a 359 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,100 white paper looking at the failure of that bill. 360 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,500 And once she concluded was that, there was not enough public 361 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,000 activism and support to try to get that bill passed. 362 00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:55,300 So right now, what we're Being is that the climate movement is 363 00:18:55,300 --> 00:19:00,400 growing and that groups like sunrise or zero hour. 364 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,400 These are youth climate movements Friday's for future. 365 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,600 That's gratitude Birds organization. 366 00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:09,700 You know, these groups are starting to raise the salience 367 00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:12,100 of these issues. And that is so important for 368 00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:15,500 politicians because I've done some research, which I write 369 00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:18,000 about in the book, with Chiefs of Staff and legislative 370 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,200 directors and Congress, as well as state legislators and their 371 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:22,800 staff. And I asked all of these, 372 00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:25,400 Different groups, you know? What do you think the public 373 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,900 thinks about climate policy? Do you think they liked it? 374 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:29,600 What do you think? The public thinks about these 375 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,900 clean energy targets? Do you think they want them? 376 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:37,300 And what I find is that these politicians and their staff are 377 00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:41,500 consistently under estimating, support for climate policy. 378 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,800 They think that the public doesn't care or they think that 379 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,000 the public doesn't want them to act on climate change and that's 380 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,300 just not true. If you go on the Yale project on 381 00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:54,100 climate change, Communications website. 382 00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:57,000 You can see these maps that my colleague at the University of 383 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,700 California. Santa Barbara, has been making 384 00:19:58,700 --> 00:20:03,000 with them for years, which down scales public opinion on climate 385 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,500 policy to every congressional district across the country. 386 00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:09,700 Every count, you can look up your own and what you'll find is 387 00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:13,700 that in 90% of the places, there's huge support for climate 388 00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:17,700 action, but our politicians and their staff do not know this. 389 00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:21,600 So, one thing that the public has to do is make that message 390 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:26,400 clearer and what we find in our research paper is that the more 391 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,500 politicians in their staff are meeting with lobbyists from the 392 00:20:30,508 --> 00:20:34,300 American petroleum Institute or taking money from the fossil 393 00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:37,600 fuel industry. The worst job they do at 394 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,800 understanding public support. So we need to be holding our 395 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,400 politicians, accountable, and not allow them to become 396 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,600 captured by the fossil fuel industry and forget that the 397 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,100 public wants climate action and wants to leave a habitable 398 00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:55,700 planet for Future Generations, so I think talking about climate 399 00:20:55,700 --> 00:21:00,000 change, writing to your politicians boating, raising it 400 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,900 as an issue in public debates. Those are all really powerful 401 00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:07,200 things that people can be doing because we need people to 402 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,000 understand that there is massive widespread support for acting on 403 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,300 the climate crisis. Yeah, that was surprising. 404 00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:17,200 We had chain Skeleton on recently from political climate 405 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,200 and Julia Piper. And Shane was saying when he 406 00:21:19,208 --> 00:21:22,100 worked in a congressional office, that actually, they 407 00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:24,000 don't get that money. Any letters that are not form 408 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,100 letters and they read them and take them. 409 00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:29,000 Seriously, you can actually have some degree of influence by 410 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,000 writing serious letters, 100%. I'm doing some additional 411 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,800 research building off of that work on this exact topic and I 412 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,700 would really encourage people to reach out to their politicians 413 00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:42,500 and make sure that they know that they care about climate 414 00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:44,500 change. That's not just your federal 415 00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:46,500 politicians, although that's really crucial. 416 00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:50,900 It's also State politicians local politicians, hold people's 417 00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:53,500 feet to the fire and make sure they know that Public wants 418 00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:58,400 action, we're zeroing in now on. I want us to get to some sort of 419 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,200 case study and sort of break this down a little bit. 420 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,300 But one more thing to set the stage for that is I have a 421 00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:05,600 question. I always like to ask is about 422 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,200 utilities, utilities are typically governed. 423 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,700 Now, as monopolies, where they're granted, some sort of 424 00:22:09,708 --> 00:22:13,100 exclusive right to provision power for a certain geographical 425 00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:17,600 area and wasn't wondering like is this necessary when might it 426 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,500 no longer be necessary and then if it is, why should a monopoly 427 00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:24,200 that has legal status? As a monopoly, why should they 428 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,400 be allowed to influence the political process? 429 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,300 I don't understand how exactly that works. 430 00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:31,300 Sort of hurts my brain to think about. 431 00:22:31,700 --> 00:22:33,600 Yeah. Well that's something I get into 432 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,200 extensively in my book. So in the early 20th century 433 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,000 private utilities were just getting established. 434 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:46,000 Electricity was a new commodity and there were business leader, 435 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,400 Samuel insull being the most famous and well-known who 436 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,700 realized that in order to make a profit they would Need to build 437 00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:57,500 large plants because the first kilowatt-hour of electricity 438 00:22:57,500 --> 00:23:00,700 sells really expensive, but if you can sell more, you get 439 00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:03,700 economies of scale. So they wanted to get a lot of 440 00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:06,200 customers. They could build a big plant and 441 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,400 spread those costs across lots of people. 442 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,900 Now, in order to do that, they needed to have exclusive 443 00:23:11,900 --> 00:23:15,800 franchise rights basically a monopoly because otherwise they 444 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,300 would be competing with one another over the same service 445 00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:21,200 territory. And so what Samuel insull did 446 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,300 was that he Just other people in the industry to support this 447 00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:29,000 idea of monopolies. And then they went and got state 448 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:34,400 legislators to pass laws that put electricity in the state 449 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,100 jurisdiction rather than the local jurisdiction and created 450 00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:41,800 public utility commission's. So this is written a lot in 451 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,200 Richard, Hirsch's book, power loss, or really excellent 452 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,700 history of this topic. And it's also, of course written 453 00:23:46,700 --> 00:23:50,900 about in my book, but he's the sort of primary source on it and 454 00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:52,600 it was a deal, right? It's kind of a fast. 455 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,000 Bargain. You said, hey, you get to be a 456 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,700 monopoly and in return, you have to be regulated by a Public 457 00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:02,000 Utility Commission. This is the kind of thing that 458 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,100 Elizabeth Warren is always talking about, right? 459 00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:07,400 We need corporations to be regulated, but especially when 460 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,700 corporations are monopolies. There are some really thorny 461 00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:14,200 ethical questions. If you get electricity from 462 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,400 Monopoly, I do, for example, from Southern California, 463 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,500 Edison. I can't choose to buy my 464 00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:23,200 electricity from another company and if Southern, California 465 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:29,300 Edison, decides to oppose clean energy or to create fake groups 466 00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:33,100 and pretend that the public opposes clean energy, you know? 467 00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:36,100 I can't exit. I can't say I'd like to go take 468 00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:39,400 my money elsewhere and this is exactly what's been happening in 469 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,000 Arizona with Arizona, public service. 470 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,100 This is a monopoly utility that operates in Phoenix and they've 471 00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:48,800 spent, you know, fifty million dollars over the last decade, 472 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,300 capturing their regulator influencing elections at their 473 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,700 Peter blocking clean electricity standards from being passed into 474 00:24:56,700 --> 00:25:00,700 law through a ballot initiative. This is very unethical behavior 475 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,200 and Arizona, public service is the company that sells the 476 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,200 electricity. You can't choose to buy 477 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,400 somewhere else. So I think you're right. 478 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,600 There are really thorny questions around Citizens United 479 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:18,300 and corporations, right to use political spending as a form of 480 00:25:18,300 --> 00:25:21,700 free speech when those corporations are monopolies. 481 00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:25,500 And so I'm very critical Uncle of utilities as monopolies right 482 00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:28,900 now and all the ways that they have, you know, been abusing the 483 00:25:28,900 --> 00:25:33,400 system because of the citizens united decision to Broadway's to 484 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,200 take this one. Do you think a more 485 00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:40,400 decentralized bottom-up approach with micro grids and household 486 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,800 solar and stuff like that? Do you think that might make 487 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,300 centralized provision and utility provision of power 488 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,000 unnecessary? And then I guess, as a related 489 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,600 question, could you just have multiple providers of power 490 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,400 inside of the same? Geographical area, competing. 491 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,000 People always like to point and say, the only argument I 492 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,500 typically here this is in popular circles, not, in 493 00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:01,100 academic circles. So I'm sure there's more 494 00:26:01,100 --> 00:26:03,400 sophisticated arguments. But people say, do you really 495 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,200 want there to be multiple power lines going to everything? 496 00:26:06,500 --> 00:26:07,700 Mike? I'm sure they would cut some 497 00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:09,800 sort of deal and figure it out there like there's incentives to 498 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,300 do. So anyways, what do you make of 499 00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:14,400 that whole dog's breakfast? I just served you. 500 00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:18,600 Yeah, so on the second Point, that's kind of retail 501 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,000 competition in the electricity system and it does exist in a 502 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,700 few places. Isis, including Texas being the 503 00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:27,200 really well-known example or cot is the system. 504 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,800 They're the interesting thing is that not a lot of people change 505 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,200 their electricity service provider just because they're 506 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,900 given an opportunity to do that. You know, I think the bigger 507 00:26:36,900 --> 00:26:40,000 issue is not getting rid of monopolies. 508 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,300 If I were to start the system from scratch today, I wouldn't 509 00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:47,200 design it to have electricity companies be privatized and 510 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,500 monopolies, I certainly wouldn't. 511 00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:50,300 But that is the system that we have today. 512 00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:53,900 And so it's a little difficult to just Magically you know 513 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,400 change it. What I'd rather do is have 514 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,300 better regulation of these corporations and have limits on 515 00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:05,100 their ability to do political lobbying, you know, have them be 516 00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:09,400 more like basic service providers that are heavily 517 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,700 regulated. And the problem is that public 518 00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:13,400 utility commission's that are supposed to be. 519 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,100 Their Regulators are often captured. 520 00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:18,500 So we have to find a way to get those systems to be less 521 00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:22,600 captured, a lot of Advocates, have focused on changing the 522 00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,000 ownership structure as a solution to that. 523 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,600 And in the conclusion of my book, I have a section on that. 524 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,900 For those interested, I'm not a huge fan of the idea that if you 525 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:37,200 change your private utility to a municipal utility or some other 526 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,700 public entity that will magically solve the problem. 527 00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:43,300 And that's because if you look at the Municipal Utilities and 528 00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:46,900 public electricity providers, there are sometimes pretty bad 529 00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:49,400 to the Tennessee. Valley Authority is written 530 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,600 about in Russell Gold's book, a superpower, which is excellent. 531 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,600 Need and it does not come across. 532 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,600 Well, this is a federal Power Authority, you know, the same 533 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,300 could be said for some Municipal Utilities and for Rural Electric 534 00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:03,700 co-ops. So I don't think it's just the 535 00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:06,300 ownership structure that it's the critical variable. 536 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,200 But I do support people running campaigns to put pressure on 537 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,200 private utilities and if part of those campaigns are to say, 538 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,400 well, we're going to make our own electricity system and exit. 539 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,500 I think that's a good way to put pressure. 540 00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:21,800 The other thing I will say is that passing intervener 541 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,400 compensation Programs is a really promising way forward. 542 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,500 This is a policy that exists in California. 543 00:28:28,500 --> 00:28:31,400 It might actually exist in Washington state or I think it's 544 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,700 Oregon. It's only in about three states 545 00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:37,700 across the country. What it does is it allows groups 546 00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:41,600 that are intervening in regulatory proceedings at public 547 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,200 utility commission's to be paid for their time. 548 00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:47,900 So if you are going to try to talk about consumer rights and 549 00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:50,300 make sure that electricity bills aren't being jacked up by 550 00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:52,400 monopolies. You can be paid for that if 551 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,300 you're going Go and talk about how we need to keep the air 552 00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:56,500 clean and reduce our carbon emissions. 553 00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:59,200 You can get paid for that. And so, a big reason why 554 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,700 California is so successful is because that policy has paid 555 00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:05,700 Advocates to show up and advocate in the public interest 556 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,000 Monopoly. Utilities are always paid to 557 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,100 show up because they get to recoup all their costs in the 558 00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:15,500 regulatory process. So, I do think that we have to 559 00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:20,000 be thinking about Public Utility Commission reforms and make sure 560 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,600 that Monopoly utilities are not capturing. 561 00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:26,400 The political system, maybe that means we have to try to break up 562 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,700 private utilities. I just think that that is going 563 00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:30,600 to be a really difficult thing to do. 564 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,300 Because in the places where it's been tried like in Colorado and 565 00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:36,900 Minnesota with Excel, it's been a long battle that hasn't gone 566 00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:39,400 anywhere. So you know, it's a thorny and 567 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,100 difficult issue but if people are interested in that my book 568 00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:44,200 does talk about that in some detail. 569 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,600 Your book is very detailed and there are a number of case 570 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,600 studies or if you if you really want to dig in there's a lot of 571 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,900 room for you to do so in a Kind of way man. 572 00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:58,600 Some of this stuff seems improperly suited to activism. 573 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,800 So I'm gonna say this neutrally, although you could take it in a 574 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,600 bad way if you, if you had that mood about you listener, but I 575 00:30:05,608 --> 00:30:08,900 think activism encourages a sort of simplification, right? 576 00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:11,900 Like the ideal is the picket sign some sentiment or policy 577 00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:14,900 change that fits on their vote for, or against X thing. 578 00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:19,400 I'm angry about why thing Etc, but then like the exact policy 579 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,000 changes that are necessary to reform, something like pu Seas. 580 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,300 Seems really detail-oriented in the worst kind of way. 581 00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:31,800 Like I think I'm fairly smart and I'm daunted by it and so and 582 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,800 I, my attention is slipping trying to absorb all the 583 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,900 relevant information to even make an informed choice. 584 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,400 So is this is this even like the best place for democracy to be 585 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,800 practiced or how do you make it easier so that people could do 586 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,300 it effectively? Well, that's why an intervener 587 00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:47,400 Compensation Program is so great. 588 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,300 I totally agree that, you know, you and I are not going to be 589 00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:52,800 full-time. Advocates to try to reform, But 590 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,600 utility commission's, there are some groups doing that as I 591 00:30:55,608 --> 00:31:01,000 mentioned, but it's unlikely and so we need to have people 592 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,400 representing Us in the system and they need to be paid for 593 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,100 their time because otherwise Advocates are going to struggle 594 00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:10,800 to find enough money to go do the work that they need to do, 595 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,200 they're going to have to, you know, raise money from 596 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,000 membership. They're going to have to go to 597 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,200 foundations and utilities can just collect monthly payments 598 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,300 from people who need to use electricity in their homes and 599 00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:24,400 put some of that money into lobbying. 600 00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:27,400 So we need the system to make sure that money is being 601 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,300 provided for Advocates on our behalf. 602 00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,700 We do not all need to be people intervening and Public, Utility 603 00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:36,800 Commission, hearings. What you can do, if you want to 604 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,900 is you can join organizations that do this work. 605 00:31:40,100 --> 00:31:42,100 The Sierra Club is really important. 606 00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:45,300 There Beyond coal campaign has been crucial to shutting down, 607 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:48,000 coal plants across the country and intervening and puc 608 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,800 proceedings 350 has fantastic chapters as well. 609 00:31:52,100 --> 00:31:55,100 And then there are Local groups on a state-by-state basis. 610 00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:58,500 The utility reform Network in California being one that comes 611 00:31:58,500 --> 00:32:01,200 to mind. So maybe learn about who is 612 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,200 advocating on about electricity and become a member. 613 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,500 Give them five. Ten bucks a month and you know 614 00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:09,100 what's cool about it intervener Compensation Program. 615 00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:12,300 It happens automatically for all people in the state. 616 00:32:12,300 --> 00:32:17,000 So for example, in California, it's about 17 cents a person a 617 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:22,000 year to pay for this program and it returns back to electricity 618 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,800 rate. As hundreds of millions of 619 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,000 dollars a year. So when independent reviews of 620 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,100 that program have happened, it's been shown that it's really a 621 00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:34,100 wonderful investment. So we need policies that 622 00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:37,400 automatically create better outcomes for people. 623 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,400 So that yeah, not everybody has to be a full time, you know 624 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,300 utility Advocate or know all the details about these things. 625 00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:48,000 So my book is really about pointing out the problem. 626 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,600 It doesn't mean that everybody has to be a full-time Advocate 627 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,500 on this and I'm sure most of your listeners. 628 00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:55,900 Our members of organizations, but support people who are 629 00:32:55,900 --> 00:32:58,400 trying to advocate, for example, to pass an intervener 630 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,500 Compensation Program because then you won't have to think 631 00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:04,100 about this nearly as much. Alright? 632 00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:05,600 Yeah. Fair enough you mentioned a 633 00:33:05,608 --> 00:33:08,900 couple organizations like Beyond coal and three fifty.org which I 634 00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:10,800 learned about both of these from Planet of the humans. 635 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,600 Have you seen that Leah? Unfortunately, I did watch that 636 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,000 film. Yes, I do not recommend people 637 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,800 watch. It just kidding obviously we 638 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,900 know about these the Sierra Club and 350 and Bill mckibben's been 639 00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:25,600 on the show and And yeah, okay so you just write a piece about 640 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,300 this when we'll get back to the utilities and public policy 641 00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:29,800 stuff. But since this came up naturally 642 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,000 because I had to make that joke, what happened in that movie? 643 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,100 Yeah, so Michael Moore, who's a household name? 644 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,800 Released a film on the 50th anniversary of Earth day. 645 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,500 Last week with his longtime producing, partner directing, it 646 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,300 person named Jeff Gibbs, and from what I can tell from 647 00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:51,500 watching the film, this was sort of a side project that Jeff had 648 00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:55,200 for maybe the last It's a lot of very out of date, things about 649 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,000 clean energy and I have the strong impression that they had 650 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,300 a strong thesis going into the film and decided they were going 651 00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:05,400 to tell that story which was that clean energy is evil. 652 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,000 And climate activists are somehow corrupt and they are to 653 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,900 blame for the climate crisis at one point. 654 00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:15,300 Jeff gives says environmentalist or driving us off a cliff for 655 00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:19,000 example and it didn't really matter that they found very 656 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,199 little evidence to back up their claims. 657 00:34:21,300 --> 00:34:23,800 They had their thesis And they ran with it. 658 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,300 And I just think that's really bad journalism, especially when 659 00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:30,500 there's so much more attention to climate change and people 660 00:34:30,500 --> 00:34:33,800 want to solve the problem to deliver this nihilistic. 661 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,699 Take two people that just immobilizes them is terrible. 662 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,199 I think that this movie is going to get a lot of play. 663 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:44,300 And the right-wing amongst climate deniers, it'll probably 664 00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:47,500 be pushed by fossil fuel companies and I don't think that 665 00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:50,400 Jeff Gibbs or Michael Moore. Did enough thinking about who 666 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,400 exactly would be using their film? 667 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,900 I And Michael Moore, literally endorsed Bernie Sanders on a 668 00:34:55,908 --> 00:34:59,200 stage, a few months ago. Standing next to representative 669 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,600 Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, the champion of the green New Deal. 670 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,400 I mean, Bernie Sanders is plan for president was 100% 671 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,800 Renewables by 2030. What is Michael Moore thinking 672 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,500 coming out with a film? That's as Renewables are all 673 00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:16,200 evil. I mean, it's just beyond 674 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,900 irresponsible and quite incoherent to his supposed 675 00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:22,600 Progressive politics. And, you know, if you want A 676 00:35:22,607 --> 00:35:26,300 critique capitalism and say that growth is the problem that's 677 00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:28,700 fine. In fact, Naomi Klein has done a 678 00:35:28,707 --> 00:35:31,700 very good job of that, but the film doesn't get into that at 679 00:35:31,700 --> 00:35:36,100 all it instead pushes population control, as the solution. 680 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:40,000 When we know that actually wealthy people who are generally 681 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,100 white in the developed world, have the lowest birth rates and 682 00:35:44,100 --> 00:35:47,800 they also have the largest carbon Footprints and its lack 683 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,000 of brown. People living in poor countries 684 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,900 who have very small Footprints who are In higher amounts of 685 00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:56,500 children. And so, population control would 686 00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:59,800 not solve the climate crisis, and it's fairly racist. 687 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,600 So I think the film is extremely problematic and I do not suggest 688 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,400 people watch it, especially climate Advocates because it's 689 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,400 very demoralizing. And disheartening, all of us, 690 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,100 know that there are problems with renewable energy and we 691 00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:15,800 grapple with that in our work, but the film is not 692 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,100 constructive, or trying to point out ways that we can improve. 693 00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:22,000 It's just a Doomer nihilistic film. 694 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,600 And so, I think Think if people watch it, they'll be kind of 695 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,500 sad. Oh, man! 696 00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:29,300 Yeah, there's a couple of moments that were quite Grim. 697 00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:31,500 Yeah, you're not. Not wrong. 698 00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:35,400 There. There's So many angles of take, 699 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,800 there is a germ of Truth in there. 700 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,700 That, of course, the production of solar panels involves 701 00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:45,200 industrial processes that are not so great, but for all of 702 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,100 them and also they spend a lot of the, the movie focus on the 703 00:36:48,100 --> 00:36:50,800 downsides of biomass. But for all of these things, the 704 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,500 details and the lifecycle analyses matter, quite a lot. 705 00:36:53,500 --> 00:36:54,900 Like there are good versions of those things. 706 00:36:54,900 --> 00:36:57,200 And there are very bad versions of those things, but you just 707 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,600 said all of them are bad and ends up in this sort of anti 708 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,300 civilization. Kind of primitive is screed 709 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,300 against everything. I know and I find it so bizarre 710 00:37:06,300 --> 00:37:10,300 initially my piece had a whole section which got cut about, you 711 00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:13,600 know, how could these filmmakers, who themselves they 712 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,000 can only make their film, because the industrial era 713 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,900 exist, right? Cameras. 714 00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:22,800 Computers cars to drive around in Planes to take, you know, 715 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,900 they are only able to make this film because industrial society 716 00:37:25,900 --> 00:37:28,900 works and all of us benefit from industrial society. 717 00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:32,100 Of course, there are negative externalities from any kind of 718 00:37:32,107 --> 00:37:35,200 industrial process, whether that's You know, lithium mining 719 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,500 for batteries or Cobalt extraction, right? 720 00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:42,200 Or, you know, using fossil fuels to manufacture solar 721 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,100 photovoltaics or, you know, using steel, which is a very 722 00:37:46,100 --> 00:37:48,300 carbon intensive process to make wind. 723 00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:50,900 And yet those of us who actually want to solve problems are 724 00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:53,500 trying to Grapple with those things and find better 725 00:37:53,500 --> 00:37:55,900 Solutions. And exactly as you say, talk 726 00:37:55,900 --> 00:37:59,600 about the nuance and the life cycle analysis to say, under 727 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,600 these conditions this is bad. And under those conditions, it's 728 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,100 better than the alternative. Which by the way, is fossil 729 00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:07,400 fuels. It's crazy how little the film. 730 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,500 Even talks about fossil fuels, there's nothing about the 731 00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:13,000 climate denial. Campaign, there's nothing really 732 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,200 about, you know, if we're not going to build Renewables, what 733 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,900 are we going to power our societies based off of. 734 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,400 So yeah, and especially on biomass biomass is a very 735 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,400 complex topic. What people may not know is that 736 00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:29,200 the u.s. electricity system is only 2% fueled by a biomass? 737 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,900 So it's not a really big slice of it and it's unlikely that 738 00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:36,400 biomass is going to grow to a huge level in the u.s. biomass 739 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,900 can be done better. If it's done based on waste 740 00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:41,600 streams near by a plant. Like if you have like a Pulp and 741 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,800 Paper Mill or Timber facility and you're just using scraps, 742 00:38:45,100 --> 00:38:47,700 that's better. If you're cutting down forests 743 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:51,600 to put wood pellets on tankers and ship them over to the EU 744 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:52,900 which is something that's happening. 745 00:38:52,900 --> 00:38:55,100 That's really bad. But you wouldn't learn any of 746 00:38:55,107 --> 00:38:56,800 those facts from watching the film. 747 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,500 You would learn them by looking at the work of environmental 748 00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:01,600 Advocates like, oh, I don't know. 749 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,300 Three fifty.org Sierra Club. Union of concerned scientists 750 00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:07,700 and RDC. All the organization that the 751 00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:10,100 film denigrates. Those are the groups actually 752 00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:14,400 doing work to highlight the ways that biomass can be done poorly 753 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,600 and try to stop it. In the case is that it is being 754 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,000 done poorly. Now I want to invite you on 755 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,500 because this Nuance is so important for many things. 756 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,000 The truth doesn't easily fit on a picket sign of these details. 757 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,000 Really do matter to get these issues right like Nori where a 758 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,800 carbon removal Marketplace. There are versions of carbon 759 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,500 removal that we think are distracting or versions of 760 00:39:34,500 --> 00:39:37,700 projects that use captured CO2, that amount to a sort of 761 00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:41,700 Promotional greenwash and as the sector grows, you're going to 762 00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:44,600 see more and more people that Co-op the language and the ideas 763 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,500 of it and you really have to dig into some of the stuff for you 764 00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:49,700 don't know what you're getting. I think that's a fine. 765 00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:53,000 If that was the message of the film and you're saying, well, 766 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,400 some do pure elements of the environmental movement have 767 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,800 glommed onto green energy. That anything that even looks 768 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,800 like green energy, no matter if it's green watching or not is 769 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,700 great. Then that's a bad version. 770 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,700 Our mentalism but I don't think it's fair to paint so 771 00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:08,100 universally with that. There are versions of 772 00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:12,400 environmentalism that are robust and clear thinking and fair in 773 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,500 ways that I enjoy and I'm sure you support many of the same 774 00:40:14,500 --> 00:40:18,000 groups to. I mean, the film went, after the 775 00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:22,900 smartest most Grassroots parts of the movement, Bill McKibben 776 00:40:22,900 --> 00:40:28,000 is a brilliant, kind detailed hard-working journalists and 777 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,600 activists. I mean his work is so 778 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,300 beautifully written and he is used to being harassed by Bye. 779 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,400 Oh, I don't know. The fossil fuel industry in the 780 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,100 timber industry, but to be harassed by a progressive 781 00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:43,300 filmmaker with a platform, like Michael Moore has is so immoral. 782 00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:46,300 And the reality is that bill McKibben wrote to the filmmakers 783 00:40:46,300 --> 00:40:49,600 and tried to clarify his views and they didn't even write back. 784 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,300 They had no interest in engaging. 785 00:40:51,300 --> 00:40:54,600 And I just think that's immoral from a journalistic perspective. 786 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,700 So I don't even really view this as a documentary because it's 787 00:40:57,700 --> 00:41:00,800 not really about facts. It isn't about having a nuanced 788 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,400 conversation about Solutions and their pitfalls, which Anybody 789 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,400 who has worked in energy to, you know, if they'd taken my class, 790 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,900 they would know, you know, this is my undergraduate class on 791 00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:13,500 energy, they would know that all energy systems have trade-offs 792 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,300 that we have to try to minimize those trade-offs and, and yeah, 793 00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:19,600 I think the point that you make about carbon removal, so 794 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,200 interesting because there are certain parts of the Progressive 795 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,100 Movement that are just knee-jerk against it and my attitude is 796 00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:28,500 we're at 400 15 parts per million. 797 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,000 I live in California, we have droughts wildfires, I've had to 798 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,500 evacuate my home more than one. Because of wildfires in the five 799 00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:38,500 years, I've lived here, you know, this is not a safe level 800 00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:41,800 of concentrations for me, and for many other people living in 801 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,000 small island nations, for example. 802 00:41:44,100 --> 00:41:46,300 And so, how are we going to remove carbon from the 803 00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:48,400 atmosphere? That's a big question and I 804 00:41:48,408 --> 00:41:51,400 don't think just storing it in Forest is enough because Forest 805 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,800 fall down and they burn. So we need to be able to have 806 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,000 space to have complex conversations about Technologies 807 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,500 and how they get manipulated and some of their trade offs. 808 00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:04,100 But this film does not contribute productively To that 809 00:42:04,100 --> 00:42:06,400 conversation. And I think Naomi Klein said it 810 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,300 best, she had a tweet about it, you know, she wrote a book 811 00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:11,300 called this changes everything, which is a critique of 812 00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:13,600 capitalism and how it creates climate change. 813 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,000 But she said, this film is not productive to advancing that 814 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,800 conversation. If people want to have a 815 00:42:18,808 --> 00:42:21,300 conversation about, you know, wealth. 816 00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:23,000 Here's a thing that people might not know. 817 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,500 There's something called the Kaya Identity, or I Pat, it's an 818 00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:28,400 equation. Which shows you where emissions 819 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,100 come from, it says impact environmental impact is a 820 00:42:31,107 --> 00:42:33,600 function of population affluence. 821 00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:38,500 And technology, and the film takes on population, which 822 00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:40,600 generally, as I've already pointed out, is not a great 823 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,600 lever to pull for all the reasons I said. 824 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,100 And then it says, technology is hopeless. 825 00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:48,300 So we can't pull that lever and it really leaves on this table. 826 00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:52,800 The idea of income inequality or the huge environmental 827 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,800 Footprints of the wealthy. You know, that's the work that 828 00:42:55,808 --> 00:42:59,000 Naomi Klein has done so it's not like we can't have complex 829 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,100 conversations about those different levers to making 830 00:43:02,100 --> 00:43:03,700 change. It's just that this film. 831 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,600 Was not at all interested in having a real informed 832 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:13,600 conversation about those issues. Yeah, I was curious where he was 833 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,900 hanging out because many of the things that he laments, their 834 00:43:16,900 --> 00:43:20,400 absence, I feel like I'm interacting with those arguments 835 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,700 on a regular basis. Many people I speak with these 836 00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:26,500 concerns trouble them, and there are many ins and outs to all of 837 00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:27,800 us. Yeah, I don't know. 838 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:29,900 Like, the idea that most of these environmental movements 839 00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:32,600 are so tied up with capitalist organizations thinkers 840 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,600 companies. But they're not doing anything 841 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,600 productive. I feel like I see more more 842 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:38,700 stuff critical of capitalism than anything else. 843 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,200 But I don't know, maybe I'm not going to the right cocktail 844 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,300 parties. It could be that to know. 845 00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:46,300 And if, and if capitalism is the problem and fossil fuel 846 00:43:46,300 --> 00:43:49,200 corporations of the problem, how come the film never talks about 847 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,400 corporations? It's so strange. 848 00:43:51,700 --> 00:43:55,900 Michael Moore has made a career criticizing corporations Roger 849 00:43:55,900 --> 00:43:59,600 and me, Bowling for Columbine, which went after gun 850 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,900 manufacturers. For example, sicko, which goes 851 00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:05,700 against Operations involved in the health care industry. 852 00:44:05,900 --> 00:44:08,800 You know, why didn't he make a film going after Electric. 853 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,600 Utilities and fossil fuel companies who have lied about 854 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,900 climate science for decades and have delayed progress. 855 00:44:14,900 --> 00:44:18,400 As I outlined in my book as Naomi oreskes, and Erik Conway. 856 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,600 Outlined in their book merchants of doubt. 857 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,300 I mean, look, the evidence is there for corporations being 858 00:44:24,500 --> 00:44:29,000 really terrible for the planet and instead of blaming 859 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,500 corporations, they blame environmentalists and it's just 860 00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:37,000 so wrong headed. You know, given how worked up 861 00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:39,200 you are and how intense this conversation is, we're 862 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,900 guaranteeing that some of our listeners now have to check 863 00:44:41,900 --> 00:44:45,100 right now tragedy strikes and effect big time. 864 00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:48,200 I'm just warning people that it's not going to leave you in a 865 00:44:48,207 --> 00:44:51,000 good mental headspace. I'm sure your listeners know 866 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,500 about all the trade-offs involved in clean energy and 867 00:44:53,500 --> 00:44:54,900 struggle with it. I do. 868 00:44:55,100 --> 00:44:57,700 But this is not going to provide any insight for you. 869 00:44:57,700 --> 00:45:00,300 It's just going to leave you feeling demoralized. 870 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:03,400 We'll see. I'm expecting. 871 00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:09,100 Now so we'll see how we only have a couple minutes left and I 872 00:45:09,100 --> 00:45:12,400 really wanted to do at least like one walkthrough of either a 873 00:45:12,408 --> 00:45:15,600 really successful or really unsuccessful case study from 874 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,400 your book that you think listeners might be able to get a 875 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,000 taste for what's inside the book and a really detailed kind of 876 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,800 way. Yeah, well I'd love to talk 877 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:28,300 about Ohio. Last summer Ohio, rolled back, 878 00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:31,900 its renewable energy laws and Energy Efficiency laws and 879 00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:35,500 basically replace them with a Bail out, it's something that 880 00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:38,700 myself and David Roberts have both called the worst energy 881 00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:41,700 policy in the nation. David Roberts wrote about it for 882 00:45:41,700 --> 00:45:44,600 Fox and I wrote a piece for the guardian and all the bloody 883 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,300 details are in my book but basically in that state anti 884 00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:52,600 wind groups and the fossil fuel industry, Electric utilities 885 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,500 worked for years to try to roll back the clean energy law and 886 00:45:56,500 --> 00:45:59,200 they eventually succeeded last year. 887 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,600 And what's so crazy? Is that the Energy Efficiency 888 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,200 policy in? Ohio was paying people It was 889 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,100 saving lots of energy and it was totally like a, an investment 890 00:46:08,100 --> 00:46:11,400 that pays itself back. I want to say five billion or 891 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,000 something. I can't remember the number, but 892 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,300 it's in my book and instead of supporting a policy like that or 893 00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:20,100 supporting a renewable energy law, when the state gets like 894 00:46:20,100 --> 00:46:23,400 three percent of its electricity from renewable energy sources 895 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,200 today and has no plans really to scale that up. 896 00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:29,100 They instead decided to put a lot of money to a coal plants 897 00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:32,800 that lose money, every hour, pretty much that they operate. 898 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,700 There are a Couple coal plants, this is the 0 Vector plants and 899 00:46:36,700 --> 00:46:41,300 the Samus plants that are no longer economically viable, and 900 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,100 Ohio has an electricity system, that's been restructured. 901 00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:47,200 So there's a market and there's Market signals, but rather than 902 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,100 shut down those plants First Energy Solutions, which was in 903 00:46:51,100 --> 00:46:55,100 bankruptcy and is now called Energy Harbor as well as 904 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,300 American Electric Power AEP, Ohio. 905 00:46:57,500 --> 00:47:00,700 They both lobbied very heavily. The state legislature to get a 906 00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:02,800 bailout. And what's so interesting is 907 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,500 there was a Race for the speaker of the house I believe. 908 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,500 And they wanted to make sure that the right guy a shill for 909 00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:12,000 their industry would get the power so that he could make sure 910 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,400 this was on the agenda. So not only did they back him in 911 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,700 his election. They also backed like 12 other 912 00:47:17,700 --> 00:47:20,300 people who they knew would vote for him so that he could take 913 00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:24,400 power over the chamber and then they quickly jammed through a 914 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,300 bailout last summer and in my book, I calculate approximately 915 00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:31,600 how much money that is likely to be over the course of the time 916 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:35,400 that that bailout exists and The law was very ambiguous. 917 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,600 You can't figure it out from the law, but you can figure it out, 918 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,300 various other ways. And I asked to meet that it's 919 00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:42,100 probably five billion dollars going towards. 920 00:47:42,100 --> 00:47:46,900 Keeping these three coal plants open until 2040 likely, and that 921 00:47:46,900 --> 00:47:49,900 is just so, unethical air, pollution kills people, right 922 00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:53,500 now, coronavirus makes it more likely that you will die if 923 00:47:53,500 --> 00:47:56,700 you're living in polluted air because it affects your lungs. 924 00:47:56,700 --> 00:48:00,600 So does the virus. So it's just really a terrible 925 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,600 energy policy and it's a tragic thing and People might not know. 926 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,200 Is that back in 2014? When they were trying to roll 927 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,000 back? This policy the clean energy 928 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,800 policy. These anti wind activists 929 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:15,900 managed to get as part of a budget Bill a rider, which is a 930 00:48:15,900 --> 00:48:18,300 provision attached to a law that really has nothing to do with 931 00:48:18,300 --> 00:48:20,200 the law. And what they do is they change 932 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,500 the setback rule for wind turbines, so that they had to be 933 00:48:22,500 --> 00:48:24,300 farther away from a property line. 934 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,500 And that meant that basically no wind energy in Ohio could have 935 00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:30,400 been built with the existing plants. 936 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,300 And since that time, the wind energy industry has Been pretty 937 00:48:34,300 --> 00:48:37,100 much locked out of the state. You can't really build wind 938 00:48:37,100 --> 00:48:40,200 energy in Ohio right now and that policy has never been 939 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,400 changed. So Ohio has a policy right now 940 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:48,000 of subsidizing coal making it impossible to build wind energy 941 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,100 and you know, has no plan really for how to deal with the climate 942 00:48:51,100 --> 00:48:55,000 crisis and is supporting air pollution and carbon emissions 943 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,500 rather than supporting cleaning up our Energy System, wow. 944 00:48:58,500 --> 00:49:02,100 So if you want to dig into all those grisly details your book 945 00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:04,100 is a very good place to do. So you would Give. 946 00:49:04,500 --> 00:49:08,000 Yeah, it's got all the details about what electric utilities 947 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,300 and fossil fuel companies have been up to for the last few 948 00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:14,400 decades, and it's not good very succinct. 949 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,400 They're nice. Nice little cap. 950 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,200 The book is called short-circuiting policy with a 951 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,600 very long subtitle. I'll do it for you, Leo, just 952 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:24,700 out of the goodness of my heart here, interest groups in a 953 00:49:24,700 --> 00:49:27,200 battle, over clean energy, and climate policy in the American 954 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,400 states, but in some sort of yeah, yeah. 955 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,100 I think it's, I think it's fine. I think it's descriptive as I 956 00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:35,100 said, I don't know why I'm picking on that. 957 00:49:35,100 --> 00:49:38,300 Sorry. But I sometimes laugh about it 958 00:49:38,300 --> 00:49:40,600 too. Yeah, that's great. 959 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,800 Links in the show notes if you want to buy the book, that will 960 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,400 be there. Dr. Leah Stokes. 961 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,800 Thanks so much for being here. We're glad to have you. 962 00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:50,700 Thank you so much for having me on and yeah to all your 963 00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:53,200 listeners working on clean energy, and climate policy. 964 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,600 Stay in the fight. Your work is essential more more 965 00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,500 now than ever before and don't be disheartened. 966 00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:04,900 When the haters come calling and they will come calling Leo, 967 00:50:04,900 --> 00:50:07,000 you're on Twitter, a lot to what is your handle? 968 00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,000 Oh, I'm on Twitter, too much. It's Leah, Ellie. 969 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,800 Aah Stokes, Leah, Stokes and yep. 970 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,300 I blast my opinions to the universe on a regular basis 971 00:50:16,300 --> 00:50:20,100 there, it's a brave ice. I kind of stay away from it. 972 00:50:20,100 --> 00:50:23,500 Personally, it has its upsides and its downsides. 973 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,700 There are professional downside to not engaging but there are 974 00:50:26,700 --> 00:50:31,100 personal spiritual. There's a sanctuary of created. 975 00:50:31,100 --> 00:50:33,500 I don't want to pierce. Yeah, I know I've started taking 976 00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,600 Seeing my weekends off line off Twitter to just focus on 977 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,700 gardening and reading books and sort of detoxing from it. 978 00:50:40,700 --> 00:50:44,700 So yeah, you know, he can set boundaries around it, very wise, 979 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:45,500 what. Great. 980 00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:48,000 And if you like the show, please write reviews on iTunes, or 981 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,100 Stitcher a podcast. Tell your friends. 982 00:50:50,300 --> 00:50:57,300 And thank you so much for listening, but thank you so much 983 00:50:57,300 --> 00:50:59,200 for listening. If you like the show, please 984 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,900 rate and review it in apple podcast and or Stitcher. 985 00:51:01,900 --> 00:51:04,700 It really helps us a lot to get this content to a wider 986 00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:06,300 audience. If you think what we're doing is 987 00:51:06,300 --> 00:51:09,300 useful, interesting fun. Hopefully, all three, we 988 00:51:09,300 --> 00:51:10,900 certainly appreciate your rating and review. 989 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,700 You can keep up with Nori at nor e.com where there is a 990 00:51:13,707 --> 00:51:17,300 newsletter that's nor e.com. Subscribe, there's podcast. 991 00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:19,600 There's a whole bunch else or you can send us an email at 992 00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,300 podcast at nor e.com. 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