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Hello and welcome to the 20 00:00:58,500 --> 00:01:02,100 reversing climate change. Has to I'm Ross, Kenyon today, I 21 00:01:02,100 --> 00:01:06,900 have with me Kristoff boiler CDR manager, at climb works and also 22 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:10,600 with roles at the negative. Emissions platform, and risk 23 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,300 dialog, Foundation. Hi Kristoff, hi Ross, pleasure 24 00:01:14,300 --> 00:01:17,200 to be here. It is my pleasure to do an 25 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,700 episode on climb works. We follow your work. 26 00:01:19,700 --> 00:01:22,600 You get name checked in so many episodes. 27 00:01:22,900 --> 00:01:26,700 Christophe our Kristoff. Not you Christophe has visited 28 00:01:26,700 --> 00:01:28,600 some of your facilities and Switzerland before. 29 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:31,300 We're fans what you do. Ooh, we are very excited about 30 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:35,300 what is happening in DAC, and so, now is the time to talk 31 00:01:35,300 --> 00:01:36,800 about it. So, thank you for joining me. 32 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,400 Yeah, thanks for having us. And we also fans of yours and 33 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,900 yeah, happy to talk. Great, thank you. 34 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:46,400 I'm happy to hear that. Well for listeners. 35 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,500 Who may not know? Maybe it is good to start with 36 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,000 what is climb works. And what is unique about? 37 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,800 Your direct are capture approach. 38 00:01:54,500 --> 00:01:55,700 Yep. That's a very good question. 39 00:01:55,700 --> 00:01:59,800 So climax is all of the first direct are capture come. 40 00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:04,200 He's it's also the largest and it's the first that is 41 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:07,400 commercial. What's unique? 42 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,600 So I would say the first thing that's unique about us is that 43 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:17,300 we have a modular approach and we use solid sorbents which 44 00:02:17,300 --> 00:02:21,900 allows us to use renewable energy only for to run our 45 00:02:21,900 --> 00:02:24,100 operations. So we have a low carbon 46 00:02:24,100 --> 00:02:26,900 footprint which is kind of important if you're in the 47 00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:30,800 business of removing carbon from the atmosphere and Obviously the 48 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,200 modular approach allows us to, you know, build smaller plants 49 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,200 or different sizes, relatively quickly, through which we can 50 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,900 learn quickly and, and then, you know, improve quicker. 51 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,200 So, that's why we chose this approach. 52 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:51,300 You can also call it fail fast or, you know, learn fast we 53 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:51,900 okay. Yeah. 54 00:02:51,900 --> 00:02:56,400 You could say that this modular approach I find intriguing. 55 00:02:56,500 --> 00:02:58,400 We did a show a while back on carbon removal. 56 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,000 Newsroom about the degree to Which carbon removal, 57 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,200 necessitates an economy of scale and large machines. 58 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,400 Doing this work versus something that's more distributed and 59 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,200 smaller scale and modular as you might say and I like the idea of 60 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,400 it being modular both for the antifragility reasons. 61 00:03:16,700 --> 00:03:19,600 But I also really want to have my own direct are capture unit 62 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:21,500 that plugs right into a SodaStream. 63 00:03:21,500 --> 00:03:25,200 So I can just have my own carbonated water through put in 64 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,700 my kitchen. This is a dumb question to start 65 00:03:27,700 --> 00:03:29,200 off with. But is that ever going to happen 66 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,100 for me? It is if you if you willing to 67 00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:38,300 spend a lot of money on that third and and, you know, okay, 68 00:03:38,300 --> 00:03:41,500 so seriously, so obviously we're sympathetic to that kind of 69 00:03:41,500 --> 00:03:45,300 thinking and, you know, we can build decentralized, but not as 70 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:49,200 decentralized. So it needs to be a few, you 71 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:54,100 know, dozen or ideally a few hundred tons per year, at least 72 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,000 for it to become economically viable. 73 00:03:57,100 --> 00:03:59,400 Well, you have no idea how much carbonated water I'm drinking. 74 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,400 That's true. Yeah, it could be. 75 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,700 It could be very very viable. Yeah. 76 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,800 Okay. I taken is my framing of your 77 00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:12,300 economy of scale versus modular thinking is that the correct way 78 00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:14,400 to understand how you're using modular? 79 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,700 I wouldn't not entirely so so, so where we will get it. 80 00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:22,400 Economies of scale, is through mass production. 81 00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:28,500 So, you know, we won't build these large plans, which have 82 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:31,600 economies of scale in in In the building process of the plant. 83 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,100 But we essentially what we have is 40-foot containers. 84 00:04:35,100 --> 00:04:39,500 That's our kind of modular unit. And if we Mass produce them much 85 00:04:39,500 --> 00:04:43,500 like, you know, trucks or cars that's economies of scale and 86 00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:45,600 you said thanks for complicating that story. 87 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,600 I had a feeling whenever you have such a neat little 88 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,800 partition between two schools of thought. 89 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,500 It's almost never. That way, is it? 90 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,300 Nope. So sorry, ya know, it's a bit 91 00:04:55,300 --> 00:04:58,300 more complicated. But yeah, I also want to explain 92 00:04:58,300 --> 00:05:02,300 a little bit more about sorbent approaches to carbon removal and 93 00:05:02,308 --> 00:05:04,800 director capture. What exactly does that mean? 94 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,300 I imagine there are people listening. 95 00:05:06,300 --> 00:05:08,800 I imagine there are certainly are people listening, who are 96 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,700 not biochemical Engineers, not Material scientist. 97 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,000 What is this orbit? And maybe what are some other 98 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:20,300 approaches to director capture? Yeah, so a solvent is basically 99 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:26,100 is a filter that attracts selectively, only CO2, and then 100 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:29,000 this is what we are, after all the DLC companies that are after 101 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,300 two, A perfect and you basically have two ways that are working 102 00:05:34,300 --> 00:05:36,900 now and there's a third potential one that could 103 00:05:36,900 --> 00:05:41,100 disrupted and the two ways out the the solid solvent, which we 104 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:43,900 use. So so the CO2 molecules sticks 105 00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:46,700 to that solid solvent and you have to heat it to 100 degrees 106 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,400 Celsius. So that's the way we work in 107 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,400 Europe and sorry, I don't know the fahrenheit numbers from the 108 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,400 top of my head and and and also you know the other way is to 109 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:00,800 have a liquid solvent where the CO2 reacts with a saw Avant and 110 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,300 becomes a solid and then you have to desorb at 900 degrees 111 00:06:05,500 --> 00:06:10,700 Celsius and that means you have to burn natural gas and and that 112 00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:14,900 then requires you to co capture. The the fossil CO2 molecules 113 00:06:14,900 --> 00:06:17,700 from the natural gas. This is, this is the carbon 114 00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:21,800 engineering approach and it's a great approach because it is how 115 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,300 can be cheaper. But if you look at it from a, 116 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:28,100 from a full LCA perspective, then you have to obviously 117 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:32,600 account for that fossil bit, Your calculation and the Third 118 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:38,000 Way which you know the MIT is looking at another research 119 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:41,100 institutes. You could potentially maybe one 120 00:06:41,100 --> 00:06:44,900 day do it not with chemistry but electricity and that could be a 121 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:47,800 game-changer. But currently we can't see that 122 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,200 working in the foreseeable future. 123 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,600 We did another carbon removal Newsroom recently about the 124 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,400 department of Energy's office of fossil energy has issued a 125 00:06:58,407 --> 00:07:02,800 number of ants or other funding mechanisms for a number of 126 00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:05,900 carbon removal and mostly director capture companies. 127 00:07:05,900 --> 00:07:09,800 And many of them are sorbets based and my understanding is 128 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:15,700 that they will be attracting CO2, do them. 129 00:07:15,700 --> 00:07:19,000 And then there is some sort of process by which they can be 130 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,500 induced to release the CO2 after it's been captured. 131 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:25,400 And then it is stored somehow. And I've also seen one of the 132 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,600 companies that want to Grant through that process, it does it 133 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,600 through alkalinity and PH which I'd never heard of before. 134 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,900 But, and I also know Klaus lackner is famous for the 135 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:38,300 moisture swing. So after the this sort of resin 136 00:07:38,300 --> 00:07:42,000 has captured CO2, you've changed the moisture environment in 137 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,400 which these pellets are in, and then it releases it, but it 138 00:07:45,407 --> 00:07:48,200 sounds like the approach that you're using tends to be focused 139 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,100 on heat and temperature. And in the difference between 140 00:07:51,100 --> 00:07:54,200 those two environments is how it is captured in the CO2 released. 141 00:07:54,300 --> 00:07:57,900 Is that correct? So some of this, I'm not an 142 00:07:57,900 --> 00:08:00,800 expert in but from what I understand yes and and you know 143 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,100 the main difference between what Klaus doesn't what we do is he 144 00:08:04,100 --> 00:08:10,500 gets a 5% CO2 stream and we get a almost pure CO2 stream and 145 00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:14,300 that makes it kind of easier for utilization, but I think in 146 00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:17,200 general, you know, the way things are going and also, you 147 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,400 know, if you read the ipcc reports of we will need 148 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:24,100 everything in addition to full steam ahead on reduction of CO2 149 00:08:24,100 --> 00:08:27,800 emissions. We're definitely attitudinally 150 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,800 aligned on this. The only thing I will say we 151 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:35,200 talked about this a little bit prior, is that carbon removal 152 00:08:35,299 --> 00:08:37,000 soil? Gets a lot of this but director 153 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,799 capture to has this sort of Holy Grail or a to it, where people 154 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,200 become way too optimistic about it and runs the risk of us 155 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,000 disappointing people. And so I tend to default to a 156 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,300 very large portfolio, we're all sort of on the same team here, 157 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:55,800 Elevate, cool. Ideas. 158 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,600 I never want to over promise anything and it sounds like 159 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,000 maybe you are similarly disposed and trying to say okay this is 160 00:09:02,008 --> 00:09:06,000 exciting promising stuff but we still need to do boring climate 161 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,400 fixes as well. This is that okay by you. 162 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,000 Yeah definitely I mean I think you know it's not just over 163 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,000 promising is we are literally you know talking about our 164 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,300 future here and we should be really careful and realistic and 165 00:09:21,300 --> 00:09:24,900 how to assess this therefore we tend to be on the conservative 166 00:09:24,900 --> 00:09:26,300 side. With our, you know, 167 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:31,800 communication of prices and kind of, you know, Pathways where 168 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,800 this can go. I mean we definitely see 169 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,700 gigatons scale happening, but this, you know, needs strong 170 00:09:37,700 --> 00:09:41,900 political and societal will got it. 171 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,600 Okay, that's always good to hear. 172 00:09:43,700 --> 00:09:46,900 And just to clarify to with this orbital approach in the way that 173 00:09:46,900 --> 00:09:51,400 I framed. It with moisture pH or heat, 174 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,500 you're saying climb works. Is focused on heat like 175 00:09:54,500 --> 00:09:58,100 differences in Heat to both capture the CO2 and then also to 176 00:09:58,100 --> 00:10:00,600 release it by changing the heat in the environment in which 177 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,400 these sorbents exist. Is that like a good lay persons 178 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,100 understanding of this? Yeah, it's heat. 179 00:10:06,100 --> 00:10:09,000 And we capture at whatever temperature is the outside 180 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,600 temperature and then we need around 100 degrees difference to 181 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,400 release the CO2 from the filter. These are 100 degrees Celsius 182 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:21,500 roughly it's 80 to 120 but don't go deeper with your questions 183 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:25,400 because I'm not a technical guy. So I will you will My 184 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,900 limitations quite soon on that. Yeah, I just want to do the good 185 00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:30,300 point of order. I think it's just the 186 00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:31,900 temperature at which water boils. 187 00:10:31,900 --> 00:10:33,000 Right? 200 calendar. 188 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,800 That's that's that's a good. That's usually what it requires. 189 00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:38,500 Okay. Cool. 190 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,400 I'm not a technical guy either. So I'm we are both doing science 191 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,000 translation for The Listener right now Christoph. 192 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,000 It sounds like we are well placed as peers right now, 193 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:51,500 that's very good to hear. Well we've done a number of 194 00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:55,000 episodes about climate and specifically carbon removal. 195 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,100 Policy in the United States. There's been some state level 196 00:10:58,100 --> 00:11:00,700 things but mostly watching the federal government and seeing 197 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:03,600 what happens in d.c., what is it like in Europe? 198 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,400 I'm not sure that we've ever had an in-depth conversation about 199 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,200 what climate policy and specifically carbon removal 200 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,500 policy looks like in Europe. Yeah, that's very good question. 201 00:11:12,500 --> 00:11:16,800 And one of my favorites because a lot of my time goes into that. 202 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,700 But yeah, so I think the way I see it. 203 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,400 It's, you know, in the u.s. move as usual. 204 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,200 Quite fast on this with 45 Q in the low carbon fuel standard and 205 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,900 in Europe, it is kind of a bit different. 206 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:36,700 So we would say we always almost moved from the opposite end. 207 00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:41,900 So I think in Europe, the first step tends to be kind of binding 208 00:11:41,900 --> 00:11:46,300 NetZero goal. And the European Union is is 209 00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:49,300 very close to to having one that they are. 210 00:11:49,300 --> 00:11:53,400 You know, some countries that already have these goals and and 211 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,700 that then is usually an 80, 2050 goal, which means we already 212 00:11:57,700 --> 00:12:00,500 borrow from the future and have to go. 213 00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:05,700 Net - thereafter to stick to the Paris goals, but from this, you 214 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:10,300 can then calculate production pathway and then you will find 215 00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:12,900 that you have unavoidable emissions that you somehow need 216 00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:16,700 to get rid of to get 20 and that's usually your carbon 217 00:12:16,700 --> 00:12:19,600 removal part. And then you can, you can think 218 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,500 about how much biomass to we have within our borders. 219 00:12:23,500 --> 00:12:26,400 Because if you if you're thinking about Importing. 220 00:12:26,900 --> 00:12:29,300 The chances are high that other countries might want to do that 221 00:12:29,300 --> 00:12:31,600 too. So that's probably not a good 222 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,700 idea. And then from that, you know, 223 00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:36,700 you can calculate how much technological solutions you will 224 00:12:36,700 --> 00:12:39,800 need. And then you have your kind of 225 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,600 rough picture what you need to do to get to to your climbing 226 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,600 goal in 2050. And from that we tend in Europe 227 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:52,000 we tend to then design policies that allow the scale up on the 228 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,000 removal side and obviously the reduction on the other side. 229 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,600 Have there been many fights in Europe about the degree to, 230 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,700 which carbon removal constitutes a moral hazard and that's been 231 00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:08,300 quite prominent in discourse here, but I think we are now 232 00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:13,100 recognizing that carbon removal is necessary, no matter what. 233 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,400 So, it shouldn't be an excuse, not to decarbonize as fast as 234 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,800 feasible, but we also shouldn't neglect it. 235 00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:22,500 Because if we don't, there's already just too much CO2 in the 236 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:24,300 atmosphere. We need to do carbon removal 237 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,600 now. Has a similar process happened 238 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,100 in Europe. Where has it been different? 239 00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:31,000 Yeah, no, no, no, I'm totally. I mean, the moral hazard 240 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,400 mitigation returns discussion has been going on for years now 241 00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:38,900 and it I find it. If I may well it's no. 242 00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:41,800 Use my favorite yet to say Krista sorry. 243 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,700 So you can let loose. You can tell me exactly how you 244 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:46,400 feel about this. It sounds like the only good 245 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,600 good. I find it quite annoying. 246 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,600 That's what I want to say. Because the science is clear, 247 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,700 right? We can't make it with reductions 248 00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:56,100 alone. It is too late. 249 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:59,100 We have admitted too much. And then, you know, there are 250 00:13:59,108 --> 00:14:02,700 two forms of moral hazard. One is not talking about it 251 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,100 which is the one that's overlooked. 252 00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:06,500 And obviously the one is overselling it. 253 00:14:06,500 --> 00:14:10,700 And and keeping on emitting, which is if you live in our 254 00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:13,000 world you have an understanding of the price point. 255 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,400 So that's rarely the case we see it and I also feel that there's 256 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,700 a very easy solution and that is you split the Net Zero goal as a 257 00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:28,300 next step into a binding. In mitigation or CO2 reduction 258 00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:31,300 of greenhouse gas emissions reductions pathway rather. 259 00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:36,700 So I could be a minus 90 or minus 95 or minus 85 depending 260 00:14:36,700 --> 00:14:39,400 on, you know, how much biomass and then Forest you have in your 261 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:44,700 country, Etc. And the rest is, your CD are 262 00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:47,900 scalar pathway. And, and if that is based on 263 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,600 robust science, you shouldn't have a mitigation deterrence 264 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,400 discussion anymore. Okay. 265 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:59,200 So you're saying that you want to split the Net Zero goals of 266 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,100 various countries in Europe and they can have the vast majority 267 00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:06,600 can be for carbon reductions, but you want a specific pool 268 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,600 available? That is by necessity carbon 269 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,700 removal. And this is in order to help 270 00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:15,500 that side of things scale, much more quickly than it is. 271 00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:18,700 Now, is it, is that kind of what you're saying, or did I miss it? 272 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:20,700 Yeah, that's that's what I'm saying. 273 00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:25,300 The only difference is that they would be a european-wide goal. 274 00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:29,900 So it would be likely you know, - 85% on the emissions reduction 275 00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:35,400 side and then it would be 15% on the removal scale up side so 15 276 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:40,100 percent of current emissions. We need to remove in 2050. 277 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,900 Maybe you can also think about adding a little percentage to be 278 00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:47,100 on the safe side. So some overlap so we could say 279 00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:51,700 minus 85 And 18 or something like that and then you pretty 280 00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:55,500 much, they're right, you know, what policies to design to get 281 00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:58,800 to that 15 percent or 10 or 18 wherever you are. 282 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,300 And and you know, what policies to design to, to get to the 283 00:16:02,308 --> 00:16:04,500 minus 85 percent. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. 284 00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:08,600 Hmm. That seems to be at the, maybe 285 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,600 the, the country or inter-country level is their 286 00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:16,600 thinking on what businesses might be required to do in 287 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,900 Europe, at least now and then how might that Interact with 288 00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:23,600 carbon removal policy? Yeah, I think what we also 289 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:30,200 implicitly assume is that article 62 and 64 of the Paris 290 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,800 agreement would work. So that means we assume that you 291 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:38,600 could transfer removal credits internationally in a kind of 292 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,600 regulated market. I think this is necessary 293 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,400 because of the differences in, you know, endowments with 294 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,600 biomass or storage potential. Lynn in different countries, not 295 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,000 only Europe, but the world. So it's very important that we 296 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,800 do the stuff. Where's the safest? 297 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,300 The cheapest and the most reliable ride. 298 00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:03,200 So so we would wish for for some form of internationally 299 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,700 transferable removal credits. And do you see this being part 300 00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:11,200 of a compliance Market, or do you see a role for voluntary 301 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,200 carbon markets as well? I think it will definitely start 302 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,200 with the voluntary Market. You know, if you look at the So 303 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:20,300 Soft. The stripes. 304 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:25,500 The shopify's, ETC. We have started to move in this 305 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,800 voluntary Market environment and that's your business, right? 306 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,400 You know, that much better than to me, it will start as a 307 00:17:32,408 --> 00:17:35,800 voluntary market. And you know, on the regulated 308 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,600 side is, it's the Paris agreement that envisages this 309 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,300 but it hasn't gone very well in the past years. 310 00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:45,900 I mean, now with with China Having kind of committed to a 311 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:49,000 NetZero, all that it might change, but I definitely would 312 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,700 cease seed starting in voluntary markets with players that 313 00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:55,400 understand the Strategic need to scale this. 314 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:00,500 Otherwise you know, we won't make my 11.5 42 degrees Celsius 315 00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:03,700 and then it you know, my become regulated at a later stage. 316 00:18:04,300 --> 00:18:08,700 So you're thinking that your countries and or companies want 317 00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:13,600 to do this now because they it might be either easier or more. 318 00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:18,600 Favorable towards them, then any perspective regulatory regime 319 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,600 might or something like that. I think they can just move 320 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,900 faster, you know, with, with these voluntary pledges. 321 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,700 And I think, you know, I don't know how you see it, but from 322 00:18:29,700 --> 00:18:33,000 from our perspective, we think we see that, you know, the big, 323 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,600 the Microsoft's Etc that I just mentioned, they understand that, 324 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,600 if they don't drive this, you know, the world might very 325 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,700 likely not make the climate goals of the Paris agreement. 326 00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:46,900 That means You know, a less stable economy or society and 327 00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:50,100 that means also Less business cases for these these companies. 328 00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:53,900 So, yeah, I think that's that's what this is what drives is. 329 00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:58,500 There certainly is a lot of leadership being shown and 330 00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:01,300 taking risks on. I mean, most most, if not all 331 00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:05,100 carbon removal, companies are startups or very nearly startups 332 00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:07,700 or, or just early in the growth of their companies. 333 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,600 Yeah, there's not many that are That old. 334 00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:16,900 So for Brands my understanding is that it's for the expression. 335 00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:19,800 I always use for. This is the reason why you see, 336 00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:21,900 I forget where I got this isn't this isn't something I 337 00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:24,100 originally thought and sorry for all the caveats. 338 00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:27,300 But okay, here's the thought is that if you work at a movie 339 00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:31,500 studio, you're never going to get fired for saying yes, to 340 00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:36,200 Spider-Man 7 because the IP has already been proven to be very 341 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,100 valuable and if you take a shot at it, and The new Spider-Man 342 00:19:40,100 --> 00:19:42,900 movie turns out to be bad, people will just say, oh yeah, 343 00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:45,900 well what we have a track record of really good, Spider-Man, 344 00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:48,500 movies and it performing well. So that's okay. 345 00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:51,600 That was a totally reasonable risk to take, but if you take a 346 00:19:51,608 --> 00:19:55,400 risk on even a much cheaper, movie by independent sort of 347 00:19:55,408 --> 00:19:59,100 like high art Cinema, maybe Winsome Oscars, but isn't a 348 00:19:59,108 --> 00:20:02,900 commercial success movie. Your job is much more at risk in 349 00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:05,700 that way. And so this is a way of 350 00:20:05,708 --> 00:20:09,000 illustrating, I think there is some inherent conservatism. 351 00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:11,900 Big companies. Because the risk of saying, yes, 352 00:20:11,900 --> 00:20:14,700 is something that later proves to be an embarrassment, is much 353 00:20:14,700 --> 00:20:19,100 greater than just, you know, continuing on as you always have 354 00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:22,000 but I think a lot of companies are breaking out of that and 355 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,000 maybe it is just hey, we're in a position to lead here, and if we 356 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,200 don't do it, no one else is going to, or hey, this is going 357 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,800 to help our employees and shareholders like us more. 358 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,300 Trust us more want to stay with us, or maybe they just genuinely 359 00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:39,000 like we have to do this now because we're really in great 360 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:40,800 Danger. As a planet if we don't. 361 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,600 I'm not sure which it is. I'm thinking, if you want to be 362 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,800 really self-interested about it, I'm sure some of it is saying, 363 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,400 whatever the government proposes. 364 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,600 It's probably going to be more expensive to comply with will 365 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,300 have less flexibility, will have less choice. 366 00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:58,600 We should do it on our end because maybe we'll set an 367 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,400 example for future policy. And maybe if we do it 368 00:21:02,408 --> 00:21:07,200 voluntarily, there actually may not be policy in that like 369 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,000 direct oversight kind of way. That. 370 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,400 I imagine many companies want to avoid, sorry, I just gave you 15 371 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,100 different things to respond to Kristoff, so your choice. 372 00:21:17,500 --> 00:21:21,200 Yeah, I don't know. I maybe I'll start with you 373 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,100 know, if you look at Microsoft and and a likely regulated 374 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:29,900 environment in the u.s. it's not that likely that they will be 375 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:33,800 forced to remove their historic emissions anytime soon. 376 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,500 Right? Also given the current 377 00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:38,600 Administration so I think they're genuinely understand 378 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,300 that they have a social responsibility to drive this. 379 00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:45,200 And also as I said, you know, you don't have a business case 380 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,000 anymore. I rather quite quite an 381 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,400 interesting policy paper. 18 months back, which started an 382 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,400 attempt of calculating, how much of of the world population would 383 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,000 be still alive and 2060? I think. 384 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,700 And obviously, that's a nearly impossible task to do. 385 00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:07,900 But they kind of looked at, you know, how the military would 386 00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:11,500 calculate compounding risks, that would happen to to appear 387 00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:14,800 and concluded that, you know, one third of us might not be 388 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,700 alive in 40 years and, and that I know that number is not 389 00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:23,700 necessary robust, but that kind of gives you an idea of, you 390 00:22:23,708 --> 00:22:26,900 know, why these companies. And I'm still, I'm sure they 391 00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:30,500 understand this think this way because it's yes it's kind of a 392 00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:34,300 moral thing, but it's also purely from a business 393 00:22:34,300 --> 00:22:36,500 perspective. If you shift your view from the 394 00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:40,900 next quarter to, I don't know the next three decades, what 395 00:22:40,900 --> 00:22:44,700 becomes profitable changes, a lot and and then all of a sudden 396 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,800 obviously this becomes profitable in that spot. 397 00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:51,500 scientists have been saying for decades and I think the exciting 398 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,900 thing that is happening now is that you know all of a sudden 399 00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:59,900 the Technologies appear and yes they are new but they have to be 400 00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:04,100 new because there was the need wasn't there in in past decades 401 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,500 because we could have still made it without removing but you know 402 00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:11,100 the Technologies are there to still make it and that is kind 403 00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:15,100 of a very hopeful Prospect and also probably the last hopeful 404 00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:18,600 prospect that we have to still turn this around. 405 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,800 I'm sorry this this was kind of an obviously a equally 406 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,800 philosophical answer to you. Why question for ya this is 407 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,100 these are my thoughts. You can match match me on that, 408 00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:33,900 that's totally fine. Yeah, that's a lot. 409 00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:39,500 Well, fair enough, curious to see how it goes, obviously the 410 00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:42,000 big risk. And I think why people distrust 411 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:47,300 a lot of voluntary action? Is that tendency to greenwash is 412 00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:52,800 it's a big Big risk. Many environmental projects are. 413 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,500 It's hard to evaluate especially for the average consumer or 414 00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:59,700 shareholder to look into what the company is doing and saying 415 00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:03,100 like yeah I think this type of credit is actually doing 416 00:24:03,100 --> 00:24:07,000 something good or this policy doesn't just sound good but 417 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,000 actually is getting the goods in some important way. 418 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,300 So I think there is a I don't know that that's another risk of 419 00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:17,600 voluntary action that I think people justifiably are concerned 420 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,900 about and one of the reasons why Maybe we do see some sort of 421 00:24:21,908 --> 00:24:25,500 compliance mechanism coming into the future but that carries its 422 00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:28,500 own risks to. It isn't people tend to over 423 00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:32,900 idealize, regulatory action as inherently good and always good. 424 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,400 And someone who studies this. I think you must agree that that 425 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,200 is not the case, right? I would agree. 426 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,900 I think the intentions are always very well in this, 427 00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:49,700 someone who works, you know, in the policy field. 428 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,700 I'm always impressed. I mean, I know from the outside, 429 00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:56,500 it's not going that fast but from the inside, there's so much 430 00:24:56,500 --> 00:24:58,700 to consider and look at and think about it. 431 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,600 I'm super impressed with how fast and especially in recent 432 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,200 Years day they change regulation in Europe, but yeah, obviously 433 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,800 no system is perfect. And no regulation is perfect and 434 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,600 and the same applies, obviously, for the volunteering marketing 435 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,400 greenwashing. And then, I'm not saying there's 436 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,700 no green washing off, of course there is, but ultimately, I 437 00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:22,800 think A lot of this starts as as well intended. 438 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,200 And a lot of it survives as a good thing, you know? 439 00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:30,500 So the European emissions trading system, which is 440 00:25:30,508 --> 00:25:34,200 currently the globally, the largest regulated emissions 441 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,100 trading Market. It it is not a perfect system 442 00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:43,100 but it is really really good. Especially if we compare it to 443 00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:47,200 you know, the other things that are there globally and someone 444 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:52,700 just needs to start and if Start us voluntarily so be it and you 445 00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:58,000 know also on a smaller level you know we offer off of voluntary 446 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,600 carbon removals on our website for individuals and and you know 447 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,100 the price point super-high. You know because we selling 448 00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:10,700 small tranches of subscription. So our cost is you know 449 00:26:10,700 --> 00:26:14,200 somewhere around 600 and then with all the overhead we have to 450 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,600 charge over a thousand dollars per ton and people are buying 451 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,000 this because they want to drive. If the unders it's a bit like 452 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,200 Tesla right there they want to buy the model S so they can one 453 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,900 day be a model 3 that that kind of makes this happen for most of 454 00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:31,100 us. Yeah II like that and we will 455 00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:34,700 certainly discuss more. What climb works is doing in a 456 00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:38,000 consumer facing but also be to be fashion. 457 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,300 That's a little bit less clear maybe to regular consumers so 458 00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:44,700 what we will get there and if you're listening and you like 459 00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:47,100 what climb works is doing, I want to support them, there will 460 00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:48,800 be links in the show notes for you to do so. 461 00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:52,000 Well, one of the questions we tease earlier Kristoff that I 462 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,600 really wanted to ask you is what is the relationship between all 463 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,900 of these different carbon removal methodologies and what 464 00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:04,800 we keep coming back to at least my kristov and I have talked 465 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,100 about is ecological succession as a model for the development 466 00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:12,800 of the carbon removal industry and which are the pioneer 467 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,400 species that are first out, the gate that are making carbon 468 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,300 removal possible. And maybe holding some ground 469 00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:26,400 and preventing crises and then what are the sort of late 470 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,000 blooming, but massive scale permanent or more permanent 471 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,400 storage methods, that are actually going to get us to, you 472 00:27:35,408 --> 00:27:39,900 know, like a carbon removal world where we are removing more 473 00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:43,500 than we are putting out every year which happens first one, 474 00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:46,700 which comes next. Yeah, I think I think that's 475 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,700 that's genius question. Because Das There's also another 476 00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:53,600 mechanism within the. So, obviously, first out of the 477 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,800 gate that has already happened. A long time ago is our for 478 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:02,600 station, which has started live competing in a market, that is 479 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,600 not a removal Market even though they are removal, but they're 480 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,100 completed in in a compensation Market against avoided emissions 481 00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:12,300 certificate. So, you know, you know you do a 482 00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:15,600 project, you you save a bit of a missions against the reference 483 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,500 project and you can, you can then pack that A certificate 484 00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:21,600 because you have saved something and sell it on. 485 00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:25,900 But no carbon has been removed. And I think that the first bill 486 00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:30,400 species out of the gate, are you guys in the carbon removal 487 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,400 markets? Because that is key because at 488 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,800 the net zero point, there are not avoided emission 489 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,500 certificates anymore which is the majority of was traded 490 00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:41,000 today, right? And there's only removal and and 491 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,600 then I think it's quite simple. You know, there's only so much 492 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,500 sustainable biomass and we should use all of that, whether 493 00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:51,400 it's for, you know, First station backs of biochar. 494 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,200 And then, you know, after that comes they would accept and 495 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,000 maybe enhanced weathering and hopefully so many more that I 496 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,600 don't yet know of and all of that together, hopefully we'll 497 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,500 get us to, you know, climate positive world. 498 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,800 We need to have 30 years and I recently read a very good 499 00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:18,700 article in political, which look to this topic. 500 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,500 And kind of the, the societal transformation that is needed to 501 00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:25,400 achieve this and it was aptly titled. 502 00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:29,900 The goal is Revolution because it's not enough to drive a Tesla 503 00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:35,200 and shower little shorter. You know, we really globally 504 00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:38,000 80%. If I'm not mistaken or around, 505 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,400 that is still fossil energy that we use and we need to replace 506 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:46,200 all of that with renewable or CCS it or remove it from the 507 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,300 air. And and and also you know the 508 00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:52,900 product Like jet fuel, that you can't replace and we can make 509 00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:57,100 fuels from thin air with with CO2 from the atmosphere. 510 00:29:57,100 --> 00:29:59,500 And and and you know, Green hydrogen. 511 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,900 You can make methane and then you can build, you start 512 00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:04,500 building your Harbin, sorry, hydrocarbon chains. 513 00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:08,300 And all of that system needs to be developed in the next 30 514 00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:10,600 years because otherwise we've literally won't make it. 515 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:16,600 And I think this is incredibly exciting but it's also a 516 00:30:16,608 --> 00:30:20,200 daunting task. And yeah, I'm I'm kind of losing 517 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,300 track, but I just want to convey. 518 00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:25,600 What we're dealing with here. Now, it's good. 519 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,100 This comes up once in a while and what I usually say is that, 520 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,300 it's like when you're watching a movie and someone says like, 521 00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:36,200 don't look down and the other character says, why what's down? 522 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,200 And I look down. And of course, they freaked out 523 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,800 because it's a giant Cliff or whatever that they're about to 524 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,200 fall off of and we tend to be optimistic. 525 00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:47,400 Yeah, conservative. Yet optimistic looking down, 526 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,500 once in a while really has a tendency To focus the mind, I 527 00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:54,200 think. And when I look down on I'm with 528 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,800 Miss Kate, I right, we shouldn't freak out because we definitely 529 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,700 need to move. And I think what you guys are 530 00:31:00,700 --> 00:31:05,000 doing, you know, building the marketplace for this is is 531 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,100 incredibly important work. Well thanks, it's certainly not 532 00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:13,700 the easiest task but actually now that I think about it, it 533 00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:17,100 doesn't seem like any of these methodologies or approaches are 534 00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:20,300 particularly easy now. No, we you're right. 535 00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:22,900 We often joke and say, when we asked, why are you doing this? 536 00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:26,500 I doing this to make money or to save the planet and then we, you 537 00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:30,000 know, one responses, there are easier ways to earn your money. 538 00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:34,900 So yeah, I'm sure. Well, what I think you're you're 539 00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:38,600 in the like Zurich area, couldn't you just work in 540 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,000 finance. Go get a job at UBS and you'd be 541 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,100 just fine, right? I don't know. 542 00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:49,300 I mean I had enough at I think including bonus more than twice. 543 00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:53,100 Salary. I have now and I'm fine because 544 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,000 this is incredibly exciting and a lot I'm sure. 545 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,900 I mean they're interesting jobs and findings to but yeah I like 546 00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:03,500 what I'm doing and I think that's also something that most 547 00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:08,500 climb or and all climax. I know of share, you know we 548 00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:13,600 like doing what we're doing and obviously if you if we think 549 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,200 think it through with a long lens, it is also incredibly 550 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,400 profitable and it will Um, a large industry. 551 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,800 At least if the world will make or will try and make the pair's 552 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,200 goals, so it's both kind of things, right? 553 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:31,400 Is it is profitable. That is also hard getting it off 554 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,900 the ground. Yeah, I think I think that is 555 00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:39,000 the hope I want to talk a bit about permanence because this is 556 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,600 come up on both shows recently and maybe the best way to do so 557 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,300 is to talk about what happens with the CO2 that climb Works 558 00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:51,800 captures. Are you monetizing it in some 559 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,700 way? Is it re-entering various value 560 00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:57,000 streams? Or is it being mineralized? 561 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,000 What's happening to your captured CO2? 562 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,800 Yeah, that's a good question. So so what we do is sink in 563 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:09,800 cycle so part of our see, 2 goes into the ground where we have 564 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,600 developed a way with with our partners in Iceland to 565 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,100 mineralize the CO2 underground. So it's gone gone and stored 566 00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:19,200 forever. Even you know? 567 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,000 so if we have an earthquake or volcano erupts and that's the 568 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,600 kind of the removal part which is needed to achieve the 569 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,100 parasols and and the other way that we need to to think about 570 00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:37,000 to achieve the Powers goals is we need to replace fossil CO2 571 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,400 inputs into the system with atmospheric inputs because 572 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:47,800 otherwise in a NetZero world you would have to Take the CO2 back 573 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:53,000 out again, and it's always cheaper to almost always cheaper 574 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,900 to use a CO2 for to replace the product. 575 00:33:56,900 --> 00:34:01,400 I give an example. So if you were to say okay let's 576 00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:04,700 you know Aviation we don't have we don't have or at least 577 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:10,300 currently we can't see too many options other than having a 578 00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:12,699 liquid fuel so you have two ways, right? 579 00:34:12,699 --> 00:34:17,300 You keep on burning fossil kerosene and then You remove the 580 00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:21,100 emissions from that fossil kerosene, for example, with 581 00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,400 direct are capture. Now, if you look at it a bit 582 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,600 closer, the climate impact of flying is 3 times roughly the 583 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,000 amount of its CO2 emissions. So you would have to remove 584 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:35,400 three times the amount of CO2 that comes from. 585 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,300 You know, you have other images like no X, which are a bit more 586 00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:42,500 aggressive than CO2. And then you also have two 587 00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:45,400 particles where you have other climate impacts. 588 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,300 But anyway, say what you can then do is you can simply take 589 00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:51,500 CO2 from the air combined with green hydrogen, then you get 590 00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:53,400 methane. It's an X term agree action, you 591 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,900 get some energy back your fish, your top sheet and you have a 592 00:34:55,900 --> 00:34:59,100 drop-in fuel that you can. You can you can tank into 593 00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:02,400 current current aircraft because you have removed the CO2 from 594 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,400 the air first, when you burn the fuel, it burns a lot cleaner 595 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,900 because it doesn't have any by products because you have built 596 00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:13,900 its and ethically and it Returns the CO2 to the atmosphere. 597 00:35:13,900 --> 00:35:18,000 So you closing the carbon cycle. And this is possible for almost 598 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,700 all hydrocarbon chain products that we currently make from from 599 00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:26,200 fossil sources. And I think this is the other 600 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:31,000 kind of, super exciting prospect that, that we are looking into. 601 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,600 And that's, you know, we have demonstrated that this is 602 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,100 possible and so has carbon engineering and we're currently 603 00:35:36,100 --> 00:35:39,500 working on scaling this up, so the fuel Market in in kind of 604 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,900 unavoidable or hard to directly Electrify sectors. 605 00:35:42,900 --> 00:35:46,000 It's definitely another interesting exciting case Oh, 606 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:52,200 yeah, I love those approaches the idea of capturing fuel from 607 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,900 the air. I know it's a little bit more 608 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,300 complicated than that. That's amazing. 609 00:35:56,500 --> 00:36:00,900 I always get excited when I hear about that, and I think having a 610 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,600 less emitting source of hydrocarbon fuels that are not 611 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,700 going to be easily. Replaceable like jet fuel and 612 00:36:09,707 --> 00:36:12,100 other things like that. That's going to play a pretty 613 00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:14,300 big role, I think. Okay. 614 00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:17,100 The first example you gave though, Iceland, I always forget 615 00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:18,800 the name, but what's the facility called again? 616 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:25,400 It's a geothermal power plant, which is called headless idea. 617 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,500 I can't pronounce it in the Icelandic way. 618 00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:29,400 I'm sorry to don't normally the God now. 619 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:34,100 That's good listening. And there we have a small 620 00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:38,900 demonstrator which we switched on in late 2017 and we are now 621 00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:42,700 building a plant there. That's bigger than all of our 16 622 00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:45,800 other plants per capturing CO2. You're building one in Iceland. 623 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,000 Yeah. Yeah. 624 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:47,800 Second one. Yeah. 625 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,900 And that that is so it captures and removes CO2 and stores it on 626 00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:56,300 the ground in the same location. It's located or aggression. 627 00:36:56,500 --> 00:36:58,600 Wow. Yeah, it's called Orca. 628 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,800 So, so follow our communication, that it's recently started, and 629 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,000 it will take in Corona times. It's always a bit hard to 630 00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:09,900 estimate, but we will think in nine months or so it's running. 631 00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:12,600 I love it. Okay, the permanence question, I 632 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,300 wanted to get to with regard to. This is one that we've been 633 00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:18,700 talking about lately, because the Assumption with carbon 634 00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:23,300 removal, Through direct are capture and mineralisation it's 635 00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:26,500 sort of taken for granted that these are more permanent than 636 00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:29,200 more biological or ecological methods. 637 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,400 And granted ecological methods, have not had a good run of 638 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,700 things in this last month plus with wildfires Etc. 639 00:37:35,700 --> 00:37:40,500 But one of my colleagues Alden Donnelly, she keeps bringing up 640 00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:45,000 the idea that there are orphaned oil wells all around the United 641 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,200 States, where oil producing companies, go out of business 642 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,700 and then these Wells, there's no one there to take care of them. 643 00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:56,500 There's not Financial mechanisms in place to care for these Wells 644 00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,800 and then you end up leaking in some way, we're not being taken 645 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,600 care of and becoming a hazard. And that this process could also 646 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,200 happen with direct air capture. I don't know that understand the 647 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,800 science well enough to say, I am cautious that because the 648 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:16,500 rhetoric around permanence and Industrial methods does feel and 649 00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:20,200 that sort of euphoric optimistic State and I want to The brakes a 650 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,500 little bit if necessary I don't know. 651 00:38:22,508 --> 00:38:25,100 What's the latest thinking on permanence with what you're 652 00:38:25,100 --> 00:38:28,000 doing there and sorry. I hope that isn't too pointed 653 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,300 for you Kristoff, but I really need another good answer for 654 00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:32,400 this. Yeah, no, that's fine. 655 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:37,200 So so I'm not a geologist but it's my job to know about this a 656 00:38:37,207 --> 00:38:42,300 bit and you know as far as I know what your friend is talking 657 00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:44,800 about, is what we call sequestration. 658 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:50,000 So you inject the CO2 in a liquid form and it stays gaze 659 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,800 down there in a kind of liquid form. 660 00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:57,400 CO2 is heavier than air, so it doesn't come up as a gas. 661 00:38:57,500 --> 00:39:00,400 So so if the conditions are right, it should stay down 662 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,600 there. This has been done by the oil 663 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:10,200 industry for decades and there are very few accidents known. 664 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,400 But obviously what we do is different, right? 665 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:18,700 We, what we do is we mineralize the CO2 underground. 666 00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:24,600 So, so, So what it is is its specific combination of heat 667 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:30,100 other minerals in the rock that the porous Rock about 1.5 miles 668 00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:33,000 down in Iceland. It's a translation that is up 669 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,000 the, the mineral rights Basalt. Yeah, that's exactly right. 670 00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:41,100 And and that kind of, you know, forces the CO2, to mineralize 671 00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:45,000 for lack of better words, within two years and then, you know, 672 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,800 you can abandon it. And because it has turned into 673 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:54,000 stone, it won't come up in no circumstance. 674 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,900 And this is, this is kind of The Way We are following. 675 00:39:57,900 --> 00:40:05,600 And also, I think globally, there's already one point 1200 676 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,300 Giga. Tons of storage identified. 677 00:40:07,300 --> 00:40:10,600 That could be used in that way. So that's more than we likely 678 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,600 need to. To remove from the atmosphere so 679 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,200 that's not the bottleneck. Hmm. 680 00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:21,100 Wow, I see the attraction. Of course, yeah, Force burned 681 00:40:21,100 --> 00:40:25,800 down and then the idea that you could mineralize CO2 and you 682 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,500 could, what did you say? You could walk away from it and 683 00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:33,600 it would be sort of stable in that capacity that if it's that 684 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,400 good in the price point is competitive. 685 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,100 That's a massive deal. I think it's fair to say and 686 00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:40,900 that's probably why you're building your career around 687 00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:42,700 direct are capture. Am I right? 688 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,000 That's correct. Yeah, no, no. 689 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,800 I mean it is it is in terms of permanence. 690 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,900 That's there's no nothing more permanent than a rock. 691 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,800 Right? In that sense. 692 00:40:55,700 --> 00:40:57,100 Nothing more permanent than a rock? 693 00:40:57,100 --> 00:40:59,600 Yeah, that's free. I can't think of anything more 694 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,700 permanent than a rock right now. So well, fair enough. 695 00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:07,300 I need to dig more into that. And learn more, see, 90 carbon 696 00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:09,500 180s then some good research recently. 697 00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:11,600 I think a lot of it leaned on the the stuff coming out of 698 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,900 Livermore. National Laboratory about the 699 00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:18,900 permanence and it not being a threat for earthquakes, really? 700 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,500 That it's quite stable. So yeah, I don't mean to inject 701 00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:26,600 out and do something that shouldn't but I do have 702 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:27,900 questions. I like to see how this would 703 00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:31,200 play out but obviously the for the good of the planet. 704 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,800 Yeah, I hope because in our theory of ecological succession 705 00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:38,200 maybe that means director capture will really get some 706 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,800 serious legs here in the future. Yeah, but I, you know, volume 707 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,600 loss is still needed because a lot of it is at a lower price 708 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,400 point. It's just not scalable to the 709 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,000 extend that direct a capture. So, again, there's down on 710 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,200 silver bullets, we need everything and fast. 711 00:41:55,300 --> 00:41:57,400 Definitely, that's certainly true. 712 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,200 Well, since we've teased this one a little bit to, where do 713 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,800 you think climb Works? Will be in the next 5 years. 10 714 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,200 years. What are you expecting? 715 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,300 Projecting able to say, Etc. Yep. 716 00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:16,800 You know, on the, on the one hand, our vision is to inspire 1 717 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,700 billion people to remove CO2 from the atmosphere in order to 718 00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:22,400 become what we call climbed relevant. 719 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:28,500 So, so get to gigatons scale and we have developed a roadmap that 720 00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:33,300 we have recently made public at our director capture Summit that 721 00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:37,500 we held on. Was it the the 8th of September? 722 00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:40,100 You can you can you can Google it it's it's available. 723 00:42:40,300 --> 00:42:44,300 But the whole recording and and they're, you know, the idea is 724 00:42:44,300 --> 00:42:49,400 basically every two years, we build a plant that is going up 725 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,900 by the order of 1 magnitude. So, you know, in 2023, it's 726 00:42:53,900 --> 00:42:58,500 100,000 tons in 25. It's, it's a million tons and 727 00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:02,700 then 10 and so, we will reach gigatons scale. 728 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,300 Hopefully somewhere. In, you know, depending again we 729 00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:14,000 assuming strong societal and put Hitting will in the 2030s 2040s. 730 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:15,900 Wow. So you've heard of exponential 731 00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:18,200 growth but have you heard of logarithmic growth? 732 00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:23,800 Yeah, that would be ideal. Yeah, that's yeah, that would be 733 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,800 cool. But that's a very hard challenge 734 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,100 to, to master in a decade or two. 735 00:43:29,100 --> 00:43:31,500 Yeah. You don't say, well, I hope hope 736 00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:34,800 you're wildly successful, that that would be amazing. 737 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,600 Well, what does that mean then? And then two years after the the 738 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,600 what you had million In tons per year than a billion say gigaton. 739 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,400 And then then what? Yeah, 10 gig of times, I think, 740 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:51,000 then if we follow that path, we would relatively soon outstrip, 741 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,400 the mass of the Earth or something, with with our DSE 742 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,900 plants. I'm not for seeing this 743 00:43:56,900 --> 00:43:58,900 happening. Yeah, I'm thinking of that 744 00:43:58,900 --> 00:44:02,000 classic Parable. I think it's Indian of the like 745 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,700 grains of rice on the chessboard, you know the one I'm 746 00:44:04,707 --> 00:44:05,800 talking about. Yeah. 747 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,600 Yeah. Be the entire you're going to 748 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,000 consume the universe. There's no don't do that. 749 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,300 That please. All right, take a No-No. 750 00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:15,200 That's that, that will be kind of counterproductive to what we 751 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,200 try and Achieve. Okay. 752 00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:22,700 Slightly slightly, yeah. Well, good to have some extreme 753 00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:24,800 goals in that way. We definitely need big thinking, 754 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:27,700 what do you think about the carbon removal sector as a 755 00:44:27,707 --> 00:44:29,100 whole? Where do you think that's going 756 00:44:29,100 --> 00:44:30,100 to go in the next couple of years? 757 00:44:30,900 --> 00:44:34,200 That's a good question. I'll see you currently, it's 758 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:39,100 going well right Corona hasn't, you know, damping it that much, 759 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,300 you know. You initiatives and marketplaces 760 00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:48,300 and Technologies are springing up left, right and Center. 761 00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:52,400 So so I'm hoping for it to continue that way and I think it 762 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,300 can and it should obviously and it will. 763 00:44:55,900 --> 00:44:59,800 So yeah, I'm conservatively optimistic if that rings a bell. 764 00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:05,600 Yeah, I'm curious too. It seems like there's a lot of 765 00:45:05,700 --> 00:45:09,700 basic research being sponsored by various government entities. 766 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,500 There are companies that are getting funded and research 767 00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:15,300 institutions are being funded to figure out a lot of these new 768 00:45:15,300 --> 00:45:18,900 technology, quite a lot of attention is going into direct 769 00:45:18,900 --> 00:45:22,100 air capture, but it seems like soil science is advancing quite 770 00:45:22,100 --> 00:45:24,500 quickly. These days to at least from 771 00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:27,500 where I sit. We just did a bonus episode 772 00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:30,400 which should be out by the time we are this one that we're doing 773 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,200 with Brian Vaughn hurts in and we were talking about Marine 774 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:34,800 permaculture. And what's happening with 775 00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:38,200 oceans? Oceans right now, I think get 776 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,700 the least amount of attention of any of the big spheres of carbon 777 00:45:41,700 --> 00:45:44,700 removal. I hope their Heyday comes in the 778 00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:47,000 next couple of years to and that takes off. 779 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:48,300 I don't know. Maybe it's different in Europe. 780 00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:51,500 Do you see much about oceans over there or like Barbie 781 00:45:51,500 --> 00:45:52,700 General? Um, um, maybe. 782 00:45:52,700 --> 00:45:57,000 I mean, yeah, there's some work being done on Marine Cloud. 783 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,500 Brightening, obviously many not only Europe. 784 00:46:00,700 --> 00:46:04,000 In Australia, I think in general the kind of the natural 785 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,200 solutions get a bit more attention in Europe because 786 00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:12,500 that's seen as more inherently positive as compared to to the 787 00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:15,600 US. And you know in terms of ocean 788 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,500 based solution. Obviously, some people started 789 00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:23,400 have started to talk about direct ocean capture which to be 790 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:24,900 honest. And this is the only thing I 791 00:46:24,900 --> 00:46:26,800 have looked at in a bit more detail. 792 00:46:27,300 --> 00:46:31,300 We can't really see it because, you know, To do direct air 793 00:46:31,300 --> 00:46:36,200 capture, you have to move a lot of air and to do direct motion 794 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:40,000 capture, you have to move a lot of water and that is a 795 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,500 considerably higher density and mass. 796 00:46:43,500 --> 00:46:46,800 So on that side, we can't really see it. 797 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,600 Obviously you know for a lot of the other methodologies. 798 00:46:49,900 --> 00:46:53,600 I'm not a scientist in that direction so I can't comment on 799 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,100 that. But yeah, at there should be 800 00:46:55,100 --> 00:46:58,100 more obviously. Yeah, I won't force you to 801 00:46:58,100 --> 00:47:00,500 comment further on that direct ocean capture. 802 00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:03,600 Haven't heard of that yet. I'm not surprised it exists and 803 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,000 I will have to look into that a bit more if someone wants to 804 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,600 support your work. Keep in touch with either you 805 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,100 personally but also if they want to support climb Works. 806 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:14,800 What's a good way for them to do? 807 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,200 So? Yeah. 808 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:22,200 So yeah if you if you are an organization based in Europe, 809 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:28,800 one good way is to contact - emissions platform and you can 810 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,000 be an NGO or CD. A developer or a CD, our 811 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,300 supporter on the demand side and engage with us and may become a 812 00:47:36,300 --> 00:47:38,300 member. That will be great. 813 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:44,300 If you are an individual and you want your emissions removed or a 814 00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:47,500 company from the atmosphere, you can either, obviously, engage 815 00:47:47,500 --> 00:47:51,300 with you guys at all, you know, with us through our web shop. 816 00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:54,500 If you if you are inclined towards direct their capture. 817 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,400 Yeah and and in general, you know this topic. 818 00:48:00,300 --> 00:48:06,900 Needs more societal dialogue and discussion so anything anything 819 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:12,800 you can do to you know educate yourself on where we are with 820 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,900 climate change. We can't call it climate change 821 00:48:15,900 --> 00:48:16,600 anymore. Right? 822 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,200 How can we call it climate warming? 823 00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:23,900 Yeah, do it. We you don't call climate change 824 00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:28,300 anymore. I don't think we can, I would 825 00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:31,700 say people in California would Now, go back to calling it 826 00:48:31,900 --> 00:48:36,400 climate crisis or Global heating. 827 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,000 I don't know. You know, it's not a fear. 828 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,400 We need a new word, maybe an old word, maybe maybe is global 829 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,800 warming again Ragnarok. I don't. 830 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,200 Yeah, I don't know, I don't know about any of these things. 831 00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:50,600 Hopefully it won't change it though. 832 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,400 I already have the name of this show. 833 00:48:52,700 --> 00:48:53,900 You got kids okay? Sorry. 834 00:48:53,900 --> 00:48:56,100 Sorry. I didn't want to reverse it on 835 00:48:56,100 --> 00:48:58,600 high prices and the health of your show. 836 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,600 Yeah. How dare you? 837 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,600 Come on my show, try to get me to change the name of the show 838 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:04,900 Krista. Sorry, Ross. 839 00:49:04,900 --> 00:49:08,600 I'll make it up to me, one day. Yeah, insulting way to end the 840 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,000 show now, just kidding. Yeah, fair enough, I'll keep my 841 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:16,100 eyes peeled for any of those nomenclature discussions. 842 00:49:16,100 --> 00:49:18,500 I'd be curious to know whatever becomes a bit of, it's not 843 00:49:18,500 --> 00:49:21,000 climate change. Links to all of those things in 844 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,600 the show notes, if you want to buy carbon dioxide that has been 845 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,100 captured by climb works, that link is in the show notes. 846 00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:31,100 If you want to follow Kristoff's work on, Keep up with him. 847 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,500 Climb works is policy work etc, or also the negative. 848 00:49:34,500 --> 00:49:36,900 Emissions platform and risk dialog Foundation. 849 00:49:37,100 --> 00:49:39,300 Well, thank you again for being on the show Kristoff. 850 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,300 Thank you, Ross fo for having me and 5 and climb works. 851 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,400 Yeah, it's my pleasure. A fetus, ain't ya, feet and 852 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,000 dank. And, yeah, I'm sure our paths 853 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,600 will cross again. I sure hope so. 854 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,700 And hey, if you're listening, would you do me a small favor 855 00:49:56,700 --> 00:49:59,900 and write a review on Apple podcast, if you're an iPhone, 856 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,700 Zur, it really helps a lot. It only takes, you know, 30 857 00:50:02,700 --> 00:50:05,300 seconds or so. If you boot up the podcast app 858 00:50:05,300 --> 00:50:08,200 that comes on your iPhone, go to this show. 859 00:50:08,300 --> 00:50:10,300 Give us five stars, right? It's a nice review. 860 00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:13,700 Assuming you genuinely think that it deserves it and thanks 861 00:50:13,700 --> 00:50:15,800 for your support. Tell a friend, and thank you so 862 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:23,000 much for listening. Thank you so much for listening. 863 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,400 If you like the show, please rate and review it in apple 864 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,700 podcast and or Stitcher. It really helps us a lot to get 865 00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:29,900 this content to a wider audience. 866 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:31,500 Audience. If you think what we're doing is 867 00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:34,500 useful, interesting fun. Hopefully, all three, we 868 00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:36,000 certainly appreciate your rating and review. 869 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,900 You can keep up with Nori at nor e.com where there is a 870 00:50:38,908 --> 00:50:41,300 newsletter that's Nori .com/srobiyt. 871 00:50:41,500 --> 00:50:44,100 There's podcast, there's a whole bunch else or you can send us an 872 00:50:44,100 --> 00:50:48,400 email at podcast at nor e.com. We are also now on patreon at 873 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,900 patreon.com slash Nori podcasts, if you'd like more content 874 00:50:51,900 --> 00:50:54,600 engagement and community and thank you so much for your 875 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:55,300 support.