1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:06,300 You're listening to the reversing climate change, 2 00:00:06,300 --> 00:00:09,400 podcast by the team at Nori. The carbon removal Marketplace. 3 00:00:09,900 --> 00:00:12,000 This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,000 developing solutions to climate change. 5 00:00:16,300 --> 00:00:18,300 Hello and welcome to the reversing climate change 6 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:20,100 podcast. I'm Ross Kenny and I'm the 7 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:22,600 creative editor at Nori's carbon removal Marketplace. 8 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,900 Today I have with me, John Sanchez, John you re Harvard 9 00:00:25,900 --> 00:00:29,000 student on a gap year, you created the carbon removal 10 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,100 Academy, With are minors, you built up their boot up program 11 00:00:33,100 --> 00:00:35,100 which some Nori knots have been going through. 12 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,400 You also do a thing called Problem packs, you're all over 13 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,400 the place. This is a busy Gap year for you 14 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,700 couldn't you've just gone to Machu Picchu or something. 15 00:00:43,500 --> 00:00:47,200 No, at a lot of this is based on the fact that we're in 16 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,800 quarantine mode. So that's a lot of the Genesis 17 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,700 of these programs is because I was locked down and looking for 18 00:00:53,700 --> 00:00:56,200 stuff to do. Really well. 19 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:57,700 Yeah. How did you get into the the 20 00:00:57,700 --> 00:00:59,900 climate world and how did this all happen? 21 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,200 Yeah, it's kind of a cool and funny story before the pandemic, 22 00:01:04,300 --> 00:01:07,900 I guess, in my first year of college, I came in as a Computer 23 00:01:07,900 --> 00:01:10,800 Science Guy, picked up an interest in chemistry along the 24 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,500 way, interested in entrepreneurship, but feeling a 25 00:01:13,500 --> 00:01:17,700 little bit directionless, but as my virtual spring semester, once 26 00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:20,000 the koban pandemic it finished off about a year ago. 27 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,700 Now, I was trying to come up with interesting ways to spend a 28 00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:27,300 quarantine socially In summer, you know, something to work on 29 00:01:27,300 --> 00:01:30,500 whatever, but I came up with 50 topics. 30 00:01:30,500 --> 00:01:33,500 That sounded cool to me things that I want to explore further 31 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:37,200 from, you know, coding projects to literature and reading to 32 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,300 trying out stand-up comedy, just a whole grab bag of things and 33 00:01:41,300 --> 00:01:43,300 put them on scraps of paper in a jar. 34 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,300 And literally each week of this crazy system, I set up for 35 00:01:47,300 --> 00:01:50,000 myself, just pick something out of the jar and try to do it that 36 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,300 week and week 2, for me, was explore the climate Tech startup 37 00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:56,900 ecosystem. Which I literally knew basically 38 00:01:56,900 --> 00:02:02,000 nothing about and yeah, that week, I listen to a lot of 39 00:02:02,008 --> 00:02:05,900 podcasts including this one did a lot of reading was intrigued 40 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:09,400 and very slowly fell down the rabbit hole, eventually ran into 41 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,200 are minors and the carbon removal world and that sucked me 42 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,300 in further as I sort of became a member of the community and made 43 00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:18,800 a bunch of friends there. And I guess at some point, I 44 00:02:18,808 --> 00:02:21,000 stop the cycle because I realized I was onto something 45 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,100 with climate and wanted to keep building stuff. 46 00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:26,200 There is there, an alternate Reality where you're doing 47 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,500 stand-up right now. So many alternate really I think 48 00:02:29,500 --> 00:02:32,400 about that all the time where like every Monday morning at 49 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,800 like pick something out of the jar and then put it back without 50 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,900 looking at it and pick something else and that would be what I 51 00:02:38,900 --> 00:02:41,100 opened. But like the very specific 52 00:02:41,100 --> 00:02:44,500 sequence of things that came out of that process is very likely 53 00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:49,100 to Define my next year's life. I don't know. 54 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:50,900 It's just kind of fun to think about. 55 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:53,200 It's a beautiful and terrifying thing. 56 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,000 I think it multiplies as you get older. 57 00:02:55,100 --> 00:02:58,000 Order to think about how much contingency exist within your 58 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,300 life and how many random things have shaped its outcomes. 59 00:03:01,500 --> 00:03:02,600 What if you had picked a different thing? 60 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,300 What have you gotten into like artificial intelligence? 61 00:03:06,300 --> 00:03:09,200 That one came up first, you know, like oh the world's active 62 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:11,100 carbon removal would be different John. 63 00:03:12,300 --> 00:03:15,700 I hope. So if I'm doing things that make 64 00:03:15,700 --> 00:03:19,000 an impact. But yeah, a I was in there so it 65 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,600 could have happened. Did you end up doing an open mic 66 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,900 or anything? Now I did but One day maybe when 67 00:03:25,900 --> 00:03:28,800 I go back to campus will be part of their stand-up comedy club. 68 00:03:29,500 --> 00:03:32,200 You should do it this it's sort of like has a Tim Ferriss vibe 69 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,100 to it you're like there's like a little bit of a dilettante 70 00:03:36,100 --> 00:03:40,200 approach but you also were really good and I almost feel 71 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,100 like you're going to put me out of a job sometimes because 72 00:03:42,100 --> 00:03:44,800 you're also really into literature and the creative 73 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,200 something. If you do that and you're better 74 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,400 at the technical stuff than me. John what am I supposed to do? 75 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,900 You have to take take food out of my family's mouths? 76 00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:56,200 How could you do that now? Reversing climate change it. 77 00:03:56,208 --> 00:04:00,100 So unique experience, the people come here for a reason, it was 78 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:01,900 diplomacy also on one of those little. 79 00:04:01,900 --> 00:04:04,600 Yeah, that's one of the things I could have picked a nice. 80 00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:09,200 Okay, that's a good. Well, we should, I Define all of 81 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,800 these different programs. I don't even know how do you, 82 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,700 how do you describe them? Overall experiences learning 83 00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:16,800 experiences. Is there's a bit of a mooc kind 84 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,399 of quality to them. Yeah, so well for me a lot of 85 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:22,800 what I've done during the past year sort of revolves around the 86 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:24,800 question about like, you know what? 87 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,800 It Takes to actually transition into the climate World from the 88 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,100 ground up right now. And there are a bunch of people 89 00:04:30,100 --> 00:04:33,300 working on this but to me the way I see it is like, you know 90 00:04:33,300 --> 00:04:36,100 if someone's beginning with like a vague interest maybe in 91 00:04:36,100 --> 00:04:39,300 climate broadly or maybe with an inkling about a particular space 92 00:04:39,300 --> 00:04:43,400 like CDR and then the end space is now I have a job in climate. 93 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,500 I starting a company, whatever that goal is. 94 00:04:46,900 --> 00:04:49,100 Then for a lot of people I don't think it's as easy as 95 00:04:49,100 --> 00:04:52,900 immediately going to reply to a bunch of seemingly, relevant job 96 00:04:52,900 --> 00:04:54,900 postings to your skill set, like I think. 97 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,300 There's a real exploration process required to find your 98 00:04:58,300 --> 00:05:01,500 specific, Affinity your specific interest, gather knowledge, and 99 00:05:01,508 --> 00:05:03,300 then ultimately choose something, right? 100 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,200 And even within the CDR space, that exploration process is 101 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:07,900 real. Because the CD, our space is 102 00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:09,900 interesting in that it's like a cool. 103 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:14,000 Grab bag of a lot of seemingly, unrelated areas that ultimately 104 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,700 come together to all remove carbon from the atmosphere. 105 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,400 But the two projects and initiatives that I've got going 106 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,700 are sort of related to the different ways that that 107 00:05:21,700 --> 00:05:24,800 exploration might look and are also sort of community focused. 108 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:29,100 And Community-based learning in community based exploration and 109 00:05:29,108 --> 00:05:31,500 we've been interested in the topic of climate communities. 110 00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:33,900 And we'll get into your thinking on how you've been building 111 00:05:33,900 --> 00:05:37,100 these out. But the first one, I think you 112 00:05:37,100 --> 00:05:38,800 started. You came out of nowhere. 113 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,900 One day, I just woke up and there's a thing called carbon 114 00:05:40,900 --> 00:05:44,300 removal Academy that existed and I was like, oh, who is this? 115 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:46,400 What is this? So what exactly is carbon 116 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,400 removal Academy? Is it still active, or has it 117 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,000 been supplanted by these other efforts? 118 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,000 However, Evil Academy is active. I just recently revamped the 119 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,700 whole curriculum with, you know, the latest news and the latest 120 00:05:57,700 --> 00:06:00,900 policy coming out with the Biden Administration startups that 121 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:03,000 have weren't around when I first created it. 122 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,900 But essentially it's a curated list of resources that take you 123 00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:10,900 through carbon removal sort of from the ground up starting 124 00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:13,100 with, you know, what is this field? 125 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:15,500 What scale do we need? And what is it going to require? 126 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:18,700 And then, you know, module by module, it presents, sort of a 127 00:06:18,707 --> 00:06:22,000 linear sequence of accessible Resources that, you know, 128 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,900 somebody who doesn't have a science background and doesn't 129 00:06:24,900 --> 00:06:29,100 want to go through the 500 page PDF National Academy of Science 130 00:06:29,100 --> 00:06:31,800 report or something that requires a lot of willpower. 131 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,500 But rather you know just trying to ease people in get them 132 00:06:35,500 --> 00:06:38,900 hooked with content. That's already out there and be 133 00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:41,600 that source of exploration where you can go through the modules, 134 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,700 explore the different spaces, and go as deep into that linear 135 00:06:45,700 --> 00:06:50,000 sequence of resources as people want, if someone's listening and 136 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,100 they wanted to go. Through it. 137 00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:54,700 Is it something that they join as a member of a cohort? 138 00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:56,600 Or is it something that they do on their own? 139 00:06:56,900 --> 00:06:59,100 How does it work? Well, the cohort is where are 140 00:06:59,100 --> 00:07:02,600 minors boot-up comes in. The are minors boot-up, is a 141 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,900 learning program to sort of get introduced to the CDR space, 142 00:07:05,900 --> 00:07:08,400 very rapidly. It's a four-week program that 143 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,900 goes through a lot of content, but the goal is there to, you 144 00:07:11,907 --> 00:07:14,400 know, help people understand the basics of each approach and 145 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,700 Technology to learn the common vocabulary that everyone in the 146 00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:20,800 space seems to have like, what the hell additionality There's 147 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,600 something who the major players are the companies and all the 148 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,200 while sort of making a close group of friends in the climate 149 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,300 space, in the process. And what the people do in, there 150 00:07:30,300 --> 00:07:31,900 is go through the carbon removal. 151 00:07:31,900 --> 00:07:34,400 Academy curriculum, sort of module by module. 152 00:07:35,500 --> 00:07:40,300 So we're recording this in early to mid-april how many cohorts 153 00:07:40,300 --> 00:07:42,200 have gone through boot up so far. 154 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,400 There's been two, we did one in March and we're just starting 155 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,300 April 1. The slag has about 200 people in 156 00:07:48,300 --> 00:07:50,500 it right now but it's not like one. 157 00:07:50,700 --> 00:07:53,600 Ass, you know, learning experience where everybody's 158 00:07:53,700 --> 00:07:55,900 joining some, giant Zoom call or something. 159 00:07:55,900 --> 00:08:00,200 The way we have it operating is it's subdivided into eight to 160 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,800 ten person discussion groups that each meet twice a week for 161 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:08,100 a small more intimate, Zoom call discussion and you know each of 162 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:12,000 those smaller calls is scheduled to discuss a new CD, our topic 163 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,800 and is pre-assigned resources for it. 164 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,600 Having people be intellectually stimulated and engaged in 165 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,100 important thinking is itself valuable. 166 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,100 I don't mean to diminish that but has has there been anything 167 00:08:25,100 --> 00:08:28,600 of consequence beyond that that you've noticed or any outcomes 168 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,800 that you've been seeing? Yeah, I mean the goal of the 169 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,000 boot up is really just that people find what they want their 170 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,299 next step to be. So like, you know, I am a person 171 00:08:37,299 --> 00:08:40,900 who's interested in CDR and after going through this giant 172 00:08:40,900 --> 00:08:44,200 experience now I have an idea that I actually really like the 173 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,400 Bayou HR space and I'm a True Believer now. 174 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:51,500 And I want to go do a problem pack on it or go explore the 175 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:54,100 companies in the space or pursue it further somehow. 176 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:57,700 So I really like this idea of affinity to a particular topic 177 00:08:57,700 --> 00:08:59,900 that people seem to be developing throughout the 178 00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:03,000 program. And, you know, I think that idea 179 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,800 of these smaller communities that are built into the larger 180 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,300 world are really valuable, because a lot of them, as we 181 00:09:08,300 --> 00:09:11,400 were shutting down the private, slack groups for each of the 182 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:15,400 mini, the mini discussion groups for the first cohort, They were 183 00:09:15,700 --> 00:09:18,900 desperate to find other ways to stay in touch and it seems like 184 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:22,700 people really made connections. So for me, that's goal achieved 185 00:09:22,700 --> 00:09:25,900 with the boot up. There been any startups that 186 00:09:25,900 --> 00:09:28,200 have gotten founded out of it yet? 187 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:31,100 Or are you still waiting desperately for your first one? 188 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,800 Not for the boot up, we're getting there with the problem 189 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,300 pack World, which we can talk about. 190 00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:37,800 But again, I think the boot up is more a learning experience 191 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,500 where the problem packs are like, well, actually, let's get 192 00:09:40,500 --> 00:09:42,900 a team together to come work on a problem that could ultimately 193 00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:44,400 spin out to be something like that. 194 00:09:44,700 --> 00:09:46,700 I love that. They always catch my eye to 195 00:09:46,700 --> 00:09:48,500 whenever you post about them. Like, dang it. 196 00:09:48,500 --> 00:09:49,800 I already working carbon removal. 197 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,900 I have enough problems in front of me at a normal job. 198 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,100 So I'm not looking for extra right now, but they always catch 199 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:57,900 my eye and they're always very thoughtful. 200 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,400 What exactly is a problem pack and maybe what are some examples 201 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:02,900 of them? Sure. 202 00:10:02,900 --> 00:10:07,600 Yeah, so the problem pack sort of spun out of after I had done 203 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,500 the first big discussion group, with carbon removal Academy, 204 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,700 I've sort of learned from the people who are going through it. 205 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:15,400 That lots of people feel like they Know how to learn about 206 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,800 climate change and build up the knowledge that you'd sort of get 207 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,800 coming out of the boot up. But maybe they haven't managed 208 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,700 or figured out quite how they want to turn that learning into 209 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,500 more concrete action, that might stand a chance to remove CO2 210 00:10:27,500 --> 00:10:29,500 from the atmosphere, do something positive for the 211 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:32,800 climate. So what the problem packs are 212 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,600 sort of rather than taking like a learning and producing a bunch 213 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,900 of content to consume based approach. 214 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,000 The problem packs are a different way of exploring by 215 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,800 being three weeks. Sort of fun. 216 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:46,900 Of climates prints. Most of them are focused on CD 217 00:10:46,900 --> 00:10:50,300 are right now, but you deep dive with a team of five to six 218 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:53,300 people into a single tangible climate problem. 219 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,700 And at the end of the three weeks, you're held accountable 220 00:10:55,700 --> 00:10:59,600 to produce a solutions-oriented deliverable, whether that's a 221 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:04,100 business model or a report or some new tactic to influence the 222 00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:07,400 industry, maybe by the end that you present publicly. 223 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:14,100 I saw one about handheld spectrometry and little carbon. 224 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:16,400 I've seen some about carbon markets. 225 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,300 Give me give me an example of one in particular here. 226 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,700 Yeah sure. So one that I think was a lot of 227 00:11:22,700 --> 00:11:24,800 fun that. Okay, this is right now we're in 228 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,600 the second round of problem packs as well. 229 00:11:27,700 --> 00:11:31,100 In April, I ran the first full round in February and for the 230 00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:35,200 February round, there were four problem packs going and I was 231 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:40,100 actively involved in leading all of the for, so it was quite as 232 00:11:40,108 --> 00:11:43,800 quite a month, but it one of the packs in that first round was 233 00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:47,000 having the goal of figuring out whether it made sense to install 234 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,600 a pyrolyze, ER, at Sawmills to produce biochar. 235 00:11:49,700 --> 00:11:51,800 Are from The Sawmill waste. Hmm. 236 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,100 So that was an interesting topic. 237 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:56,300 Saw mills are kind of like, you know, just one possible source 238 00:11:56,300 --> 00:11:58,300 of biomass that could produce the biochar. 239 00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:01,400 But the way that that group proceeded was we literally ended 240 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,400 up calling like a dozen Sawmills to talk to them about what 241 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,000 they're currently doing with their waste. 242 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,400 What their revenue streams look like with that whether they've 243 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,600 heard of biochar and could potentially be interested, we 244 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,000 talked to a lot of biochar. Researchers companies, 245 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,700 installing paralyzers in different places and like 246 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:21,200 ultimately after a bunch of Manning and thinking about well, 247 00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:23,800 how does it make sense to structure all these ideas that 248 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,100 are coming together? The group produced, a really 249 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:29,300 interesting report, synthesizing all this knowledge and, you 250 00:12:29,300 --> 00:12:32,500 know, thinking about whether actually very what conditions, 251 00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:34,600 it makes sense to actually do this at a sawmill. 252 00:12:35,300 --> 00:12:39,300 So it's an example, I think that stakeholder discussion process 253 00:12:39,300 --> 00:12:41,900 where you like, go all out and really talk to a lot of people 254 00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:44,700 who are working on this right now, has been really effective 255 00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:47,200 and a lot of the problem packs, that sort of distilling, where 256 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,600 the problems are where people's heads. 257 00:12:49,700 --> 00:12:52,400 Our at those who are actually in the field right now and then, 258 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,500 you know, taking that knowledge and doing some interesting 259 00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:57,200 brainstorming with the team having fun while you're doing 260 00:12:57,208 --> 00:12:58,800 it. But coming up with something at 261 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,300 the end, I like that. You sort of split this between 262 00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:08,000 the more passive consumption learning habits and then problem 263 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,300 packs being a different more active approach because I can 264 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:14,100 imagine there probably is a linear progression, right? 265 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:18,000 You join our miners, you do the boot up, and that's where you do 266 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,800 carbon removal Academy. And then you graduate, You 267 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,700 problem packs or is that even the right way to see it? 268 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:25,000 That's definitely in line of how we thought about things, 269 00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:27,400 especially since with the Buddha, people sort of figure 270 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,900 out where their Affinity is and what they want to explore more 271 00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:32,200 and then after getting that breath, the problem tax. 272 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,900 Really provide a source of depth where you can sort of more 273 00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:38,100 actively pursue. This make connections do some 274 00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:41,600 networking but also ultimately come up with an idea that might 275 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,000 become your next thing. But the beauty is that it's also 276 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,300 only three weeks. So like if at the end of the 277 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:49,500 three weeks you realize, this wasn't for me. 278 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,500 Then you didn't sign up for some really long term commitment. 279 00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:55,400 You didn't get a job that you find out, you're not interested. 280 00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:59,100 You just had an interesting time and you can try something new 281 00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:02,300 the next time. Yeah, I think that's really 282 00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:04,100 valuable. Maybe this is a good place to 283 00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:07,600 talk about your thinking on how these climate communities which 284 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,800 are proliferating wildly right now, there's so many of them. 285 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,900 I just joined work on climate. The other day I saw have another 286 00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:16,000 work on climate. Yeah. 287 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,700 Yeah. I haven't really stuck my neck 288 00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:22,100 out in there and Hello yet. But I've been poking around and 289 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:24,600 there's so many different things, my climate journey and 290 00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:27,100 there's a bunch of specialized slack communities. 291 00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:28,300 And there's probably a whole bunch of things. 292 00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:31,300 I'm not even aware of, and of climate base, is trying to do a 293 00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:35,100 lot of work on how you actually do this in a scalable productive 294 00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:37,900 way. How should we be thinking about 295 00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:40,500 climate communities and where their value lay? 296 00:14:41,300 --> 00:14:43,800 Yeah. Well for me, the main takeaway 297 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,300 that I've started to get from running the boot up and the 298 00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:51,200 problem packs and similar ways, is that At a lot of times when 299 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,000 maybe you're in one of these big climate communities, one of the 300 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,400 ones with like a thousand plus people in it that are posting in 301 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,600 specific channels. And there's conversation going 302 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,600 on but I think Ross actually at one point you put it to me is 303 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,600 feeling like a member of mass Society where you're 304 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,500 contributing and you're maybe you can post a link at some 305 00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:10,000 times. But there isn't really some 306 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,400 close friend meeting or it's hard to find Connections in that 307 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,300 scenario. But the way we do things at the 308 00:15:17,300 --> 00:15:21,000 boot up, as I sort of describe is that we These smaller sub 309 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,300 communities that exist within the larger structure. 310 00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:27,700 I think part of the beauty of that is that you sort of get the 311 00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:30,700 best of both worlds, where we do this fun thing in the boot up, 312 00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:35,600 where we have a random Channel and with every meeting we have 313 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:40,100 each team submit like a fun, you know, a haiku or an image or 314 00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:43,200 something funny to represent their team and sort of establish 315 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,900 some sort of Team Pride among this group of like 8 to 10 316 00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:49,700 people who are meeting twice a week but what we've seen is It's 317 00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:52,300 like there are still interactions that are happening 318 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,400 outside of the smaller group settings. 319 00:15:56,900 --> 00:16:00,900 You can preserve that at scale but there's still needs to be in 320 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:03,600 order for a community to be valuable, especially for me, 321 00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:07,100 from what I've seen is, you need to have some sort of, like, 322 00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:09,800 human interactions where you get to meet people, you build your 323 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,600 own set of connections, you build your own set of friends. 324 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,500 And those are the times when I've always have the best, like 325 00:16:15,500 --> 00:16:19,100 when I joined are minors, there may be only like 10 people last 326 00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:20,800 June. Regularly posting. 327 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,300 And when I popped in and introduce myself, all those 328 00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:27,400 people reached out to me and we had really good conversations 329 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,500 for as it's grown a little bit now. 330 00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:32,600 And I don't think if I had joined now I would have quite 331 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,700 the same experience in terms of, you know, immediately finding 332 00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:40,000 that people with my similar interests who I can become 333 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,800 friends with immediately. So I think for a climate 334 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,100 Community to be successful, it's important to have these sort of 335 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:48,200 smaller, subcultures within the full thing, so that people can 336 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,400 find connections. It's the whole. 337 00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:53,700 Hmm, I definitely think that's the case. 338 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,500 I have posted another slot groups before, not in SL 339 00:16:57,500 --> 00:16:59,600 promotional way. It wasn't like, hey, everyone 340 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,700 here should come check out this amazing podcast, I just did and 341 00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:05,099 here's why I posted something else. 342 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,400 I posted it like things, I thought were relevant to the 343 00:17:07,408 --> 00:17:11,200 community at large and it had a little bit of a cricket's, kind 344 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,900 of reaction to it. Am I doing this wrong or or or 345 00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:19,500 is this more of a sort of like a status hierarchy game? 346 00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:24,400 And I don't have enough status to attract any emojis or what is 347 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,900 happening that is I've clearly have done something wrong or 348 00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:30,200 maybe it's just objectively boring and no one cares about 349 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,200 what I'm posting about. That's also possible but being 350 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,400 able to actually interact with people on a old-school. 351 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,700 One-on-one basis, I think it's nice to like one thing I did God 352 00:17:40,700 --> 00:17:43,100 I'm going to say this on the podcast, I'm closing this up for 353 00:17:43,108 --> 00:17:45,800 now because it was too much, but I just opened my calendar on are 354 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,600 minors, like, hey guys, I've decided that slack is a bad use 355 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,200 of my time for the Most part I have. 356 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,700 I'm just too busy but I'll gladly take meetings with anyone 357 00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:55,600 if they want to. And so I've just had, I don't 358 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,100 know dozens of random meeting. Like all of them were pretty 359 00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:02,300 fun, and interesting, some of them didn't have a direct call 360 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:05,600 to action or something we could do as a Next Step, but I did 361 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,500 feel like it was good to take the Pulse of the entire carbon 362 00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:13,100 removal Community or at least that small subset as feels like 363 00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:15,900 there's value there. I prefer that over text or 364 00:18:15,908 --> 00:18:19,500 something about text that I find really inhospitable someone. 365 00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:22,700 I was reading, maybe you interpersonally. 366 00:18:22,700 --> 00:18:25,800 It's just different. Yeah, I mean I definitely know 367 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:26,900 what you mean. Definitely. 368 00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:28,700 Sometimes when you post something and you're seeing how 369 00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:31,800 many thumbs up you get feel like a popular, huh? 370 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,400 Yeah. Some experiments in the small 371 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,700 problem pack groups. When you post something, they 372 00:18:37,700 --> 00:18:39,100 read. There's a whole interesting 373 00:18:39,100 --> 00:18:41,700 discussion that can often emerge because it's relevant to the 374 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,800 brainstorming that's going on. And I think it's ultimately even 375 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,400 when there's so many fewer people that are actually there 376 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,200 and that little private community. 377 00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:53,300 Within the larger thing, I think more interesting discussions 378 00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:55,700 often emerge in that setting because people are more willing 379 00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:59,100 to engage and more willing to put themselves out there on that 380 00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:02,800 smaller scale. I think that Personal Touch 381 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:08,600 makes sense and maybe it's also got John, you're so much 382 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:09,700 younger. So maybe this doesn't even make 383 00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:13,600 sense to you the like differences between terrestrial 384 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,500 versus digital satellite radio. Do you know much about that? 385 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,500 Yeah that's I think before my time. 386 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,400 There used to be a radio waves that were beamed by towers and 387 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,700 something with electromagnetism. You probably know more about 388 00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:30,300 this than me John but it happened and there was a 389 00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:33,500 tendency I think to rush towards a lowest common denominator 390 00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:37,000 within a certain genre. So at least when I started 391 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,700 listening in probably like the 90s or the early aughts. 392 00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:43,100 There was a like a classic rock station, there was an 393 00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:47,100 alternative station. There is a Kiss FM pop kind of 394 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:49,400 station but they all basically play the same things. 395 00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:53,600 You can find that in basically any city in America as far as I 396 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,500 know, and XM came along, and it's like you want. 397 00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:58,400 Howard Stern. Here's 24/7. 398 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,800 Howard Stern. You want Grateful Dead bootlegs. 399 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,900 We got that, you want Outlaw country. 400 00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:06,000 So, whatever. Genre it just got more and more 401 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,300 specific nowadays, a Spotify. It's, it's a, your own exact 402 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:14,200 personal, but it was a gradual process of it happening in a big 403 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,800 group. I think there's a tendency to 404 00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:19,400 sort of like, converging among uncontroversial. 405 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,400 Shoulder or things that are almost kind of banal. 406 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,300 And in some cases potentially present, a smaller group, 407 00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:28,600 there's, there's more of a tendency to want to dig in, or 408 00:20:28,608 --> 00:20:30,200 it's more Niche. Maybe, maybe that's the 409 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,400 difference between like, the mass Society versus The Core 410 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,300 group or something. Yeah, I think it is. 411 00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:38,900 Partially this, like, I don't know, I wouldn't want to be 412 00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:42,400 wrong in the, my climate Journey carbon removal Channel. 413 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,000 With several hundred people, there watching me be wrong, but 414 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,000 if I was just testing out an idea, it's much easier to do. 415 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,100 So If there's, you know, a friendly group of seven people 416 00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:55,300 that I've talked to 10 times before and I can say like, oh 417 00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:57,100 yeah, I'm just thinking about this. 418 00:20:57,100 --> 00:20:59,100 Anyone have any thoughts? Like it just feels more 419 00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:00,100 comfortable. I think. 420 00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:02,300 And more productive maybe for that reason. 421 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:04,800 Dang, I've never thought about it in that way. 422 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,900 But yeah, if you say something in public, as a member of a 423 00:21:08,908 --> 00:21:11,800 company, there's this whole is this canonical is this a Nori 424 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,700 thing Mike and I just is there not a space where I can noodle 425 00:21:15,700 --> 00:21:19,400 on an idea and not have a sort of what? 426 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,000 Trying to get out though, right? Like you wanted to be 427 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,100 explorative and creative and you don't want someone to come 428 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:28,900 screenshot and like, well, John last week you said this when now 429 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,900 hypocrite. Yeah, I feel like that's fine. 430 00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:34,300 Once you have your thoughts together, maybe and, you know, 431 00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:37,400 your, maybe your you have a friendly group of people. 432 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,800 You know, is in that bigger channel so that it's less scary 433 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,500 to post their. But yeah. 434 00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:45,200 Ultimately, I think it's about creating me and fostering these 435 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,300 environments, where that level of creativeness and that level 436 00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:53,600 of Of, you know, this is very, very tentative, I'm just 437 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,200 noodling but like here's a thought, anybody want to take it 438 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:57,800 further? Who might? 439 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,500 We talked to, in order to develop this idea? 440 00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:02,100 Anybody have further thinking on it. 441 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,900 Hmm. And you think that's primarily a 442 00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:07,900 feature of just the scale, you think? 443 00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:11,800 Maybe if it's a people are maybe Kinder and smaller groups or 444 00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:15,000 something else? Yes, Gail is part of it. 445 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,400 But I think it like if I knew every single one of those 300 446 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,900 people and like, It builds relationships before then I 447 00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:24,900 think I'd have a different feeling whereas I think it's 448 00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:29,500 just something about context and something about feeling like 449 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,500 that's the type of thing that belongs in this space versus and 450 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,900 in a bigger space also it's worth mentioning that for the 451 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:40,100 problem packs. One major feature of it is that 452 00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:43,100 whenever people go to sign up they have to click a checkbox 453 00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:46,200 that says they're willing to commit to 10 hours per week, 454 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,100 commitment for every week of the three weeks that it actually 455 00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:51,300 runs. And so that's definitely like 456 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,700 there to be a filter for people who are not just going to sit it 457 00:22:55,700 --> 00:22:59,300 out and wait on the sidelines while other people actually 458 00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:01,700 attend the meetings because I think as soon as those you know, 459 00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:04,800 slack Channel start piling up with people who are less active 460 00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:10,000 and less motivated as the other people in the group, maybe then 461 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,400 it sort of drags the energy level down, or the creativity, 462 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,600 level down to some extent, the meeting start getting less and 463 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,300 less attendance and then the project Falls to Pieces, Maybe 464 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,200 And I've seen that happen in some bigger learning group 465 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,100 style, things where, you know, everybody is welcome and then 466 00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:28,000 the meeting comes and there's three people there out of 100 467 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,500 people in the channel or something. 468 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,700 So fostering that right mindset where people are committed and 469 00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:36,400 this is a real project that you signed up to do I think is 470 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,900 really important to me. That's a great way to put it. 471 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,600 I've thought a lot about that too. 472 00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:44,700 In particular on that episode I did with Evan Hines of climate 473 00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:49,200 based not long ago. About what does our patreon book 474 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,500 Would look like if it, you know, air quotes scales like for 475 00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:57,200 instance, we had Kim Stanley, Robinson common, hang out with 476 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,200 are like 40 book club members. And I could have advertised that 477 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,600 and be like if you want private time with this world, renowned 478 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,300 science fiction, author, pay this amount and come hang out 479 00:24:08,300 --> 00:24:10,500 with us. And then we have just been 480 00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:13,900 crowded in with with newcomers who don't actually care. 481 00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:16,100 It would have taken away from the experience of people who 482 00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:18,600 have been there month after month. 483 00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:21,000 Does this have to Skill. Why does everything have to 484 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,400 scale? Is that a, is that a way that 485 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,600 teca in Silicon Valley has invaded our brains and 486 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,200 everything needs this? How sad about this? 487 00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:30,800 I mean, I'm very much looking to get a lot of people to do the 488 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,300 boot up and to do the problem pack. 489 00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:36,500 So, that is a scaling exercise, but I think by preserving these 490 00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:40,100 small communities within the bigger Thing by, you know, you 491 00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:43,100 guys, this is a cluster friends. This is a cluster of people who 492 00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:46,400 care about this other topic. Like you can still scale while 493 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,800 and maintaining that small community feel. 494 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,200 I think that Difference with the book club is that Ross Canyon or 495 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,800 Kim? Stanley Robinson or finite 496 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,900 resources that aren't going to go meet with like all 50 mini 497 00:24:58,900 --> 00:25:01,500 teams of book club members at the same time. 498 00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:05,200 So maybe there's some scarcity in that, you know, people are 499 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,900 signing up so that they could talk to you specifically or talk 500 00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:10,000 to an author specifically that's there. 501 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,500 But I think scaling can still happen within larger 502 00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:17,700 communities, under the condition that the small groups of friends 503 00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:20,600 and connections are maintained Hmm. 504 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:23,600 I started thinking about whether or not I'm a finite resource or 505 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,500 not. Well, you have finite time. 506 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,700 Yeah, that's true. But okay. 507 00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:35,500 Well how do you scale is? It seems difficult to have well, 508 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:41,600 for you to administer multiple of these problem pack groups is 509 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,900 there some point where you're like, I can't do more than five 510 00:25:43,900 --> 00:25:46,500 of these at a time, or what happens? 511 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,800 Yeah, well, the way I'm thinking about it right now is, like I 512 00:25:50,808 --> 00:25:54,000 said in February, I was the team leader for all of the problem 513 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,400 packs. Found it hard. 514 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,500 Yeah, given that it's a 10 hour per week. 515 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,900 It meant for every problem pack and I was doing four of them 516 00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:04,200 that was intense. But this one, we're running six, 517 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,800 so slowly moving up. But I'm not actually 518 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,800 participating in any of the problem packs. 519 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,400 Instead, I had people on the signup form ranked how 520 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,200 interested they were in being a team leader on, a scale from 1 521 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,800 to 5 and the people who are on the higher end of the spectrum, 522 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:24,600 ended up being sort of taking on the roles that I did during the 523 00:26:24,608 --> 00:26:27,500 February round by, you know, setting up the meetings. 524 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,100 Facilitating brainstorming and driving towards that end 525 00:26:30,100 --> 00:26:32,700 deliverable. But I've been meeting a lot with 526 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:36,500 those team leaders in order to, to help them learn the lessons 527 00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:40,600 that I learned the first time and the effective, at whatever 528 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,700 it means to run a problem pack. So that's sort of one level up. 529 00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:48,500 I can I can sort of have team leaders who run those packs, but 530 00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:50,600 then, the next question is, like, is there someone who can 531 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:56,400 take over my role as person who helps the team leaders figure 532 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,900 out what they're doing when they start running the problem packs 533 00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:01,800 and how sort of team leader managers for maybe a particular 534 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,400 topic. So somebody who's really 535 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,600 interested in regenerative agriculture wants to be sort of 536 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,300 a little bit apart of several regenerative agriculture packs 537 00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:14,500 without having to commit 10 hours per week per any one of 538 00:27:14,508 --> 00:27:17,800 them so they can help the team leaders and be in those slack 539 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,800 groups but maybe not be full participants and still be, you 540 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,200 know, managing on the sidelines. So the question becomes, you 541 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,900 know, what are all those topics that people can come into and 542 00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:30,700 how do you create this? Chain of people, people being 543 00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:34,200 leaders at different areas but definitely still in flux and I 544 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,700 have a ways to go in terms of building that out. 545 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,700 Why do this? Is it some sort of you want to 546 00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:43,800 see more people in carbon removal and for you personally, 547 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,400 what are you getting out of it? The something accusative I 548 00:27:47,408 --> 00:27:50,500 didn't I didn't mean it that way, you better. 549 00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:54,400 Okay. So in terms of why do this like 550 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,400 on a climate perspective, I think there is like You go into 551 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,600 work on climate or my climate journey and just everyday, 552 00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:05,000 there's an influx of people who, like I said, are like, where do 553 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,300 I get started? How do I pursue this topic? 554 00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:09,900 I'm new to the space. I want to, I want to get going 555 00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:12,400 on, direct air capture but don't know where to start. 556 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,100 So like, you know, this whole time with carbon removal Academy 557 00:28:16,100 --> 00:28:18,800 in the boot up and problem packed, it's always been like 558 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,200 how do you provide more structured opportunities to get 559 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,700 involved? A lot of times when I was 560 00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:26,600 talking to people about this topic at the beginning, they 561 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,600 were telling me that like Like oh, we need to find more ways to 562 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,100 connect people with jobs that are relevant to them but what 563 00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:36,300 ultimately popped out the other side of that discussion is like 564 00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:39,400 there aren't that many structured jobs out there for 565 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,400 people to sign up for and the ones that exist are not looking 566 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,900 for the person who knows the most about, you know, 567 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,300 regenerative agriculture. But they're looking for the best 568 00:28:47,300 --> 00:28:50,200 software engineer to come build their product or something. 569 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,400 So it's their skillset that matters more than the knowledge 570 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,100 about the topic often. So, for me, it's like, okay, so, 571 00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:00,700 if there aren't that many structured opportunities, that 572 00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:03,300 exist to plug into the climate World, especially for people who 573 00:29:03,300 --> 00:29:05,800 don't want to be Founders, then how can we create? 574 00:29:05,900 --> 00:29:10,100 More structured opportunities that maybe aren't jobs, but are 575 00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:14,800 interesting ways to, you know, make a dent, do that creative 576 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,100 brainstorming and come up with what your next PATH is find that 577 00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:19,500 Affinity. So you know what you want to go, 578 00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:23,700 apply your skill set to but you know, again on a short-term 579 00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,900 basis, so it's not Like you have to go through the grueling job 580 00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:30,300 hunt processed first only to find out that they were an 581 00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:33,200 impressed by your software engineering skills, yet, maybe 582 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,700 that's a question we Face hiring at Nori a fair amount to wear. 583 00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:43,800 What does easier to teach software engineering or sort of 584 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,200 enough about agriculture, right? I could Envision a world though. 585 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,700 We're, you know, you would want to optimize probably for the 586 00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:53,300 person who's a better software engineer because they're going 587 00:29:53,300 --> 00:29:54,800 to be the ones building your product. 588 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,300 But that companies like Nori would send people through either 589 00:29:58,300 --> 00:30:01,000 a boot up or maybe problem packs, that send them deep into 590 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,400 the particular problems, that Nori is working on. 591 00:30:03,700 --> 00:30:06,100 And then all of a sudden they've got their their brain full of 592 00:30:06,100 --> 00:30:08,800 ideas about how to shape their regenerative, add space with 593 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,600 that combined with that software, engineering skill set 594 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,900 that they came in with. No, that's absolutely right. 595 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,200 There's also something really valuable about people being 596 00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:20,500 because we have hired people who have found us through the 597 00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:24,100 podcast. We have either had interns or 598 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,800 projects that that have come through in that way. 599 00:30:27,100 --> 00:30:30,200 And that's also really valuable having people love what they do 600 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,700 and are passionate about it. Mostly people that I think we've 601 00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:36,100 hired, they came through a climate check sort of Journey of 602 00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:38,600 their own where I care about climate change. 603 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,400 Like, where do I even look. What do I do? 604 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,200 I think that part of it is really important but if we were 605 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,100 still sending people through boot up, which we have like a 606 00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:48,900 couple of knots have been through at this point and I'm 607 00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:51,100 sure we'll continue using this valuable resource. 608 00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:53,200 And if you're listening and you want to get involved, you should 609 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,700 join, are minors and go. Without that are minors dot-org? 610 00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:58,000 That's pretty good. Sign up. 611 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,800 There you go. I think having that level of 612 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,000 interest and passion is really important, but if they weren't 613 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,900 also good at their core duties, I think we'd have a hard time 614 00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:11,000 figuring out a role for them. Right? 615 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,000 Which is why for the way I've begun to think about this is 616 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,500 steering people who have skill sets to help figure out where 617 00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:21,000 their climate Affinity is. I think that's one of the 618 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,800 value-adds because, you know, if I'm a really really talented so 619 00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:27,600 Software engineer, who wants to go work on climate change? 620 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,400 There's tons of problems. I could go work on and like the 621 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,300 right decision for them. Probably isn't to just go find 622 00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:35,400 all the software engineering jobs and apply and apply and 623 00:31:35,408 --> 00:31:37,500 apply. It's like okay well do I 624 00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:40,500 actually you know, am I intrinsically more interested in 625 00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:44,000 the cement world or in the regenerative, a girl door in the 626 00:31:44,100 --> 00:31:45,500 transportation world or something? 627 00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:49,100 And as you start to explore and figure out where your Affinity 628 00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:52,900 actually is that will inform for that person where they want to 629 00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:55,900 apply their skill set and which companies Go work for where they 630 00:31:55,900 --> 00:31:58,600 want to spend their time. What are you excited about in 631 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,500 the next couple of years with carbon removal? 632 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,400 Yeah, sure. Well, I actually spend time one 633 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,300 of my other smaller projects that I've been building is 634 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,100 carbon Visions, which is a slack another slack Community for 635 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:14,400 college students, who are interested in the space. 636 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,100 And, you know, we haven't done very much active Outreach to 637 00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:19,600 students at this point. But it's just, you know, people 638 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,400 seem to find us one way or another who are interested in 639 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,700 this space. And we have, you know, regular 640 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,200 Allure discussions about papers and talk about new ideas, but I 641 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,500 think maybe it's just being a young person and seeing a lot of 642 00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:35,900 other young people getting into the climate world, but it's just 643 00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:39,200 really inspiring. As like a new wave of people 644 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,200 comes in to help meet climate deadlines and make the carbon 645 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,100 removal space and the climate space, more, broadly, bigger and 646 00:32:46,100 --> 00:32:48,800 better. I think it's super exciting to 647 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,000 as much as we /. Mostly me were a little less 648 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,300 comfortable in these bigger man. Society kind of spaces. 649 00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:58,900 It is nice that I don't know many of the people in are minors 650 00:32:58,900 --> 00:33:02,000 or other places at this point and it keeps growing like we 651 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,100 need this so badly. If it's everyone can fit in a 652 00:33:04,108 --> 00:33:08,100 single room it's not going to do anything of import probably. 653 00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:11,300 Well, I feel that I feel that way sometimes about the carbon 654 00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:15,300 removal like academic ecosystem. Because like, when you look at 655 00:33:15,300 --> 00:33:18,300 some of the papers, most of the Papers written about carbon 656 00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:21,400 removal, they often have one like this, they may be 15 657 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,100 authors that you could, you could pick out and You know, a 658 00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:27,800 lot of those authors were also part of the CDR primer and like, 659 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,900 it's great to have a tight-knit academic Community, but like 660 00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:34,700 between the startup side and the academic world and the NGO 661 00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:37,200 space. Like I would love to start 662 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,400 seeing a lot of new faces. As I know, a lot of people are 663 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,700 starting to get phds and carbon removal or climate related 664 00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:46,900 fields and the number of voices talking about the space 665 00:33:46,900 --> 00:33:51,800 continues to increase. Do you have a strong opinion on? 666 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,100 I see it. Go back and forth almost like 667 00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:56,900 the tide. Of the ecological carbon 668 00:33:56,900 --> 00:34:00,400 removal, only or only industrial, or geological 669 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,100 sequestration. It goes back and forth. 670 00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:06,100 I see someone credible on me on every side of that seemingly 671 00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:08,900 every week. So how should someone think 672 00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:12,400 about that debate? I know, it gets kind of useless 673 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,600 sometimes because like their post, sometimes that talk about 674 00:34:16,607 --> 00:34:20,300 like why this form of carbon removal or carbon removal the 675 00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:23,500 field as a whole is overrated or people shouldn't be talking 676 00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:26,500 about it or we need to Focus on other things, it can be 677 00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:29,600 frustrating and you know, on a policy level. 678 00:34:29,699 --> 00:34:33,699 Maybe there is a need to prioritize based on like where 679 00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:36,800 that federal budget goes. And that's a conversation that's 680 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,600 worth having, but I don't know if I really like when people 681 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,100 sort of loudly scream into the public discourse, that what a 682 00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:48,300 whole group of people who's working on and trying hard to 683 00:34:48,699 --> 00:34:52,699 build out, you know, for climate change is invaluable or a waste 684 00:34:52,699 --> 00:34:56,600 of time just because There's a lot of exploration and a lot of 685 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,400 innovation and still needs to happen and calling people out 686 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,300 for doing good work. Doesn't seem to be very 687 00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:05,700 productive often why I feel pretty. 688 00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:09,500 Similarly, and one of the things I really like about all of your 689 00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:13,300 work and all of these programs that you've been developing, is 690 00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:15,400 that I might be reading too much into this and correct me if I 691 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,300 am, but there's a sense of genuine, curiosity and not 692 00:35:18,300 --> 00:35:21,500 having a final answer already built into the curricula. 693 00:35:21,900 --> 00:35:24,700 That is refreshing because there are many places. 694 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,100 You can go, that will be all too happy to tell you the exact 695 00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:30,300 right answer. And it doesn't seem like you 696 00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:32,600 have that John and I think that's actually a good thing. 697 00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:34,500 Yeah. Well that some of those debates 698 00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:37,600 are even built into the carbon removal Academy curriculum 699 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,900 itself like in the regenerative, agriculture module. 700 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,500 I don't know if you remember this but back in I think June 701 00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:47,600 2020 World Resources Institute put out a blog post that said 702 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,100 soil carbon sequestration is not nearly as effective in 703 00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:54,600 mitigating climate, as people think it is, and then a bunch of 704 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,800 the The like Keith Houston and a bunch of other big soil, 705 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,300 scientists, put out a letter of response, sort of hammering home 706 00:36:02,300 --> 00:36:05,100 their argument for why actually is valuable and has Merit. 707 00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:08,200 So both of those the blog post on the response are in the 708 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,000 curriculum so that people can sort of see this back and forth 709 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,300 and appreciate that. A lot of these things are open 710 00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:17,800 for debate and have discourse and have a lot of nuance, more 711 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,700 than any one side of an argument would like you to think there is 712 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,200 so that's definitely a value for sure. 713 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,600 I have said this in a previous show, forgive me if you've heard 714 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,500 this one, but I think the phrase teach the controversy without 715 00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:35,000 sort of ruined by the intelligent design, Scopes trial 716 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:40,600 kind of like 20th century fall out but I like that a lot. 717 00:36:40,700 --> 00:36:44,800 My undergraduate degrees in history and a lot of the ways. 718 00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:49,600 History is practice in universities tends to be. 719 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,700 You be like this school of historiography approaches the 720 00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:55,200 problem this way. And this other, School of 721 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:56,900 thought approaches it this other way. 722 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,900 You're like God there's good insights from all these 723 00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:00,900 different angles. I don't know how to make sense 724 00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:03,600 of them all at the same time, but I usually think of it as 725 00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:06,200 approaching a problem. Kaleidoscopic lie. 726 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,000 And if you can switch between lenses that usually makes you a 727 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,800 better thinker in my humble opinion. 728 00:37:11,100 --> 00:37:13,600 And I think the more people are able to do that. 729 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,700 I think it would help us break out of some of these really 730 00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:19,200 intense fights that we have. Sometimes it also makes me a 731 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,600 little more charitable than I should be or less willing to 732 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,800 commit to a position firmly. Which also makes me really 733 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,900 annoying to debate against because I'm like, I don't know. 734 00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:30,800 This is an interesting question. I was asked to give a 735 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,800 presentation recently and I was like, I don't know. 736 00:37:32,808 --> 00:37:35,100 I'm like, kind of okay, at asking questions, I don't know 737 00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:39,700 that I have any definitive answers to give you Nori the one 738 00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:44,100 way to reverse climate change. My I don't know, like I can give 739 00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:45,900 that presentation in good faith. Sorry. 740 00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:49,800 Got an idea. This might like we're trying, 741 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:55,000 dang it, but yeah, right. Yeah, now I Three. 742 00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:59,100 I think being intellectually humble is really important, 743 00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:02,300 especially when we're talking about topics is important and 744 00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:05,600 often as heated as climate change, maintaining that 745 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,100 attitude serves you well, I think. 746 00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:11,200 Yeah, I think so. It probably at least keeps it 747 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,000 interesting for me and I'm sure for you to that sort of like the 748 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,100 more you think about these things or the more you look at 749 00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:19,400 them the more angles you discover, he keeps you coming 750 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:20,800 back for more. You could have been doing 751 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,800 stand-up, you could have been doing what else was in that that 752 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:24,600 hat? I got it. 753 00:38:25,300 --> 00:38:29,000 What else is in there? As lot of Music guitar playing 754 00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:31,600 there was a whole section of just random one. 755 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,400 So actually the way, the way that I found carbon rule 756 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,700 specifically and actually delve into the space, was that the 757 00:38:38,707 --> 00:38:41,300 week after explore the climate Tech startup ecosystem. 758 00:38:41,300 --> 00:38:45,900 There was read five Shakespeare plays but after that, there was 759 00:38:46,100 --> 00:38:50,600 complete a one week internship. So I do this, I was trying to 760 00:38:50,607 --> 00:38:54,100 find people to reach out to for this one week internship and 761 00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:57,100 during That climate Tech exploration week. 762 00:38:57,100 --> 00:39:00,100 I found Tito's YouTube channel as he talked about the carbon 763 00:39:00,100 --> 00:39:02,500 removal space. So I sent him a quick email 764 00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:05,900 saying, hey, I'm happy to do stuff for are minors. 765 00:39:05,900 --> 00:39:09,700 Maybe produce a YouTube video, who knows, but he responded and 766 00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:12,700 we set up a call and that's how I fell into the carbon removal 767 00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:16,400 world could all Tita. Yeah, that's that's a great 768 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,800 story. I'm really happy that you found 769 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,700 your way in and such a strange way. 770 00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:24,600 One week internship, that's just like a stage in a restaurant or 771 00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:28,900 Things barely even there. That's creative though. 772 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:30,200 Yeah. Okay. 773 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,700 Books Shakespeare, you're one of the people that whenever we hang 774 00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:37,800 out we always end up talking about books and they're always 775 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,000 the books that you get to be like, oh yeah, some I was 776 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,300 reading Moby, Dick, the other day and you get to Pat yourself 777 00:39:44,300 --> 00:39:47,000 on the back a little bit, but I think those books are important. 778 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,000 I like reading them. I think books, that are still 779 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,800 being read, either stand the test of time for Quality 780 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,500 reasons, or are at least part of the arc. 781 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,400 Common cultural mapping of the universe and sort of make sense 782 00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,800 to read at least. Why our book school. 783 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,000 Why our book school? It's a tough question. 784 00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:06,700 Yeah, but I think that is true that like reading a funny scene 785 00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:11,800 from Moby Dick or my favorite book is 100 Years of Solitude by 786 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,800 Gabriel Garcia, Marquez, great one. 787 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,500 And I used to sort of snob Ali. Tell people after I read that 788 00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:20,900 that like, all of life, and every human emotion can be found 789 00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:24,000 within this book. And so this is my bitch. 790 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,400 You know, for me I turned up some people feel like that 791 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,100 anymore, but still it's like I think there's I think there's 792 00:40:32,100 --> 00:40:36,000 something that you know, you can find ways to tie things in your 793 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:41,600 own life or or laugh about these particular particular characters 794 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,300 or connect them with the way that you view. 795 00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:46,900 Other people that really helps me and that I get a lot of 796 00:40:46,900 --> 00:40:50,800 enjoyment from I think that's that's pretty close to it 797 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,300 solving this. If you grew up in Europe or 798 00:40:54,308 --> 00:40:56,800 America, Erica. Especially it's probably true in 799 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,600 other places, too, but they're just our sort of stock images 800 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,700 and idioms that you can pull off the shelf. 801 00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:06,900 And people kind of like, oh yeah, I recognize that scene. 802 00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:11,100 Yeah, but I like, for me, it's even that cultural context is 803 00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:13,700 important. I think, but even funnier for 804 00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:15,700 me, like, in One Hundred Years of Solitude. 805 00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:18,900 They're like all of these one-off references that like, 806 00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:21,500 never come back. Like, I think, at one point one 807 00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:25,100 character mentions like and that was the biggest The Ring of the 808 00:41:25,100 --> 00:41:28,800 community since Big Mama's funeral Carnival and it's like, 809 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,700 what we never get any reference to that, but sometimes like 810 00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:33,200 that. That one line will stick in my 811 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,000 head and come up as a frame with which I've used some other 812 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,700 situation that I find myself. He was just thinking of how to 813 00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:41,700 set up the prequels. That's where all the real money 814 00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:43,200 is made. Yeah? 815 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,900 Right. Yeah, not that's interesting. 816 00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:49,200 I sort of wouldn't have pegged you as a magical realism 817 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,700 appreciator, I just started reading Midnight's Children for 818 00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:55,700 the first time that Salman Rusty Saundra. 819 00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:59,900 I am utterly Blown Away. It is, they just packed so much 820 00:41:59,900 --> 00:42:02,800 in there. Like every sentence is just 821 00:42:02,808 --> 00:42:07,300 crafted in such a way that it feels like it captures some 822 00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:10,900 essence of an idea and you know, some people like magical realism 823 00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:13,800 for the Magical elements. But I feel like for me that's 824 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,100 sort of an aside to the atmosphere that they put you in 825 00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:22,100 and how dense and how much they get into a single chapter, that 826 00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:24,500 just flows from One Mini story to the next. 827 00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:29,000 Then each one is like its own interesting window into a life 828 00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:31,400 or a? No, I like it a lot. 829 00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:33,700 You're looking around. Are you looking for a book? 830 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,100 Heather? I was just looking at myself. 831 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,700 So, yes, you were, you're reading the Bible to, right? 832 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:45,100 How's that going? And well, you know, the, the 833 00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:48,000 interest there spun from one of my favorite podcasts, which is 834 00:42:48,100 --> 00:42:51,500 called literature and history. This is by a guy named Doug 835 00:42:51,500 --> 00:42:55,200 Metzger who has undergone an apple super and is Continuing a 836 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,400 super intense project of creating these to our Mega 837 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,500 episodes. That sort of March through 838 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,300 anglophone literature starting with like the Epic of Gilgamesh 839 00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:08,800 and Mesopotamia. And I think anticipating moving 840 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,500 towards the 21st century. But there was a whole series on 841 00:43:11,500 --> 00:43:14,800 the Bible that you know, I still have it totally sunk my teeth 842 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,800 into but it's a project I'm looking forward to in which he 843 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,500 has 10 episodes on the Old Testament and a full series on 844 00:43:21,500 --> 00:43:24,500 the, the New Testament. And I think by now that podcast 845 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,300 Like 1.6 million words written total for it. 846 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,500 So it's crazy projects. But yeah, looking forward to 847 00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:35,000 that one, too. That's neat. 848 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,900 You've pitched this shit out of me so many times and I've, it's 849 00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:41,500 so good. It's like, I don't I don't need 850 00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:43,300 more reasons to have headphones in. 851 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:48,200 But yet, for me, it matches, my aesthetic of trying to build 852 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,800 some element of Whimsy and fun into the learning process 853 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,100 because at the end of every episode, he has a A comedy song 854 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,800 that reflects on or makes fun of some of the material from the 855 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,900 previous episode, as someone who appreciates the art of the 856 00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:08,200 comedy song and someone who initially came to, to Tito 857 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,600 pitching him on my one week internship saying that I can 858 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:15,100 make an error miners theme song. A lot of it, a lot of that sort 859 00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:19,100 of style and the material itself as well really goes goes well 860 00:44:19,100 --> 00:44:22,400 with my personality you think you can go toe-to-toe with Baba, 861 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:27,800 Brinkman for his are minors Write a grant Faber produced a 862 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,600 song recently to, that was pretty good. 863 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,700 So, fighting against some some high Talent here we'll see. 864 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,300 Is there any connection in your head beyond our personal 865 00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:43,700 proclivities for literature and art and the humanities and 866 00:44:43,700 --> 00:44:46,200 carbon removal. Do you think so, or are we just 867 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:47,600 looking for ways to connect them? 868 00:44:48,500 --> 00:44:51,300 Yeah, I mean, you know, this is going to sound cliché, but I 869 00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:54,400 think when I read these books, I often think about carbon room. 870 00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:58,900 Evil, because the things that I do in my day-to-day, like, boot 871 00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:02,200 up and problem pack work, sort of layer themselves on top of 872 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,000 the happenings in the book and I feel like, wow, yeah, that makes 873 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,400 sense. This character also was thinking 874 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,000 about a problem of scaling up like we're talking about or 875 00:45:13,300 --> 00:45:16,000 thinking about running up against the limits of some 876 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,800 ecosystem, may be. So even if it's like it's 877 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,200 sometimes hard to say that like, you know, we can use the lessons 878 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,300 taught to us by the Those karamazov to solve climate 879 00:45:26,300 --> 00:45:30,300 change because it is nothing that direct I find that the work 880 00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:33,600 that I do to build out carbon removal and problem tax, and 881 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,100 boot up, and whatever it is, is often in my mind and my own 882 00:45:37,100 --> 00:45:39,700 mental web. Very interlayer, do with the 883 00:45:39,700 --> 00:45:43,300 books that I read and you know for me that enhances my 884 00:45:43,300 --> 00:45:47,500 experience gives me new ideas and helps me build out solutions 885 00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:50,800 that are better I think. Yeah I'm having a hard time 886 00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:55,200 seeing that in Dusty of ski. They already feel like 887 00:45:55,300 --> 00:46:01,500 raskolonikov and solar radiation management like an analysis. 888 00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:02,500 By John Sanchez. Yeah. 889 00:46:02,500 --> 00:46:05,900 That'd be, they little be my senior thesis in college. 890 00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:09,100 Yeah. You like you like, okay, not 891 00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:11,400 everything is connected. Sometimes a thing is just a 892 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,000 thing. Yeah. 893 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,300 But you know, a lot of dealing with climate is interacting with 894 00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:20,300 real people and convincing people to behave in a certain 895 00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:26,300 way and you know, observing What it will take to get people to 896 00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:29,100 appreciate something, or to commit, to some proper to commit 897 00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:31,900 to some process. And like the human insights, 898 00:46:31,900 --> 00:46:34,700 that you can get from reading. These books are definitely real 899 00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:37,400 and Dostoyevsky. I read Brothers, karamazov 900 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,600 earlier, my Gap year, which is why I'm thinking about him. 901 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:44,400 But like I think, when you look at how like, alyosha or Ivan or 902 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,000 some of these characters behaves on a regular basis, it sort of 903 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,100 helps me map onto the other people that I'm interacting with 904 00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:56,400 Again, I think it's just a frame that then becomes a way of 905 00:46:56,500 --> 00:46:58,300 conceptualizing. Those interactions. 906 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,700 I have that less from dostoievski personally but the 907 00:47:01,700 --> 00:47:04,400 one that I do think about probably more than any others. 908 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,400 Don Quixote you ever read that one I haven't it's on my list 909 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,900 for eventually getting there but yeah I've heard good things I 910 00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:15,600 really like the Edith Grossman translation to and she did a 911 00:47:15,607 --> 00:47:18,700 bunch of Gabriel García márquez's and Mario Vargas 912 00:47:18,700 --> 00:47:23,400 llosa's translations but Don Quixote is so funny because The 913 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,000 musical Man of La Mancha portrays him as being this noble 914 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,200 man out of step with a the corrupt world. 915 00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:33,700 But in the book he's he's like dangerous. 916 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,100 Like like if Don Quixote comes your way in the book, it's not 917 00:47:36,100 --> 00:47:38,600 like a cute old man. It's like, oh God, there's a 918 00:47:38,607 --> 00:47:42,100 crazy guy with a lamp and he's trying to stab me just because 919 00:47:42,100 --> 00:47:44,600 I'm hurting my sheep and he thinks it's an invading Moorish 920 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,200 Army. There's a bunch of stuff like 921 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,800 that. Yeah, well people running it 922 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,500 windmills. Sometimes attracted, the only 923 00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:55,500 thing. But I like the idea of for 924 00:47:55,500 --> 00:47:58,500 instance there's a there's a bookstore I went to and 925 00:47:58,500 --> 00:48:01,400 Guatemala City Once Upon a Time and it was named after Don 926 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,700 Quixote and it was a sort of like leftist bookstore, I don't 927 00:48:04,700 --> 00:48:07,200 know that you want to link your politics is guy because in the 928 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,300 book He's a guy who constantly misinterprets the world and acts 929 00:48:11,300 --> 00:48:15,400 upon it and makes it worse. So is that that's not clearly. 930 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,000 Not how you see your politics? Maybe he isn't just like a 931 00:48:18,008 --> 00:48:22,700 noble, noble guy in a corrupt world, but you can see that like 932 00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:26,100 that the Christian bed, you know, that famous Parable from 933 00:48:26,100 --> 00:48:30,000 Greek mythology. It's like the, like a cyclops or 934 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,700 Giants. And if you stay with him, he has 935 00:48:32,700 --> 00:48:35,300 a bed that he'll either stretch your limbs to match or I'll cut 936 00:48:35,300 --> 00:48:37,400 off. Your limbs may seem to love 937 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,000 loves this story as being a case of ideology blinding people. 938 00:48:41,100 --> 00:48:43,100 You feel like a bit whatever though? 939 00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:45,500 Well, yeah. Well, for me, like, it's one 940 00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:48,400 thing to like, have somebody tell you that ideology, blinds 941 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,300 people, right? Like, I feel like most people 942 00:48:51,300 --> 00:48:53,100 sort of have some sense of that to some degree. 943 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,400 Read. But then to see it unfold in 944 00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,900 those different ways and to hear what might be like a wrote 945 00:48:59,900 --> 00:49:04,000 lesson that like could be some Maximum that some Silicon Valley 946 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,700 Guru might present to you. Like that's one thing. 947 00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:10,300 But then it's another thing to like, witness the events of the 948 00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:15,200 novel unfold and like, have all of the context and, you know, 949 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,800 have that lesson framed in a way where for me at least it hits 950 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,100 home, much harder. And like, rather than thinking 951 00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:23,100 about the ideology blinding, I have a whole narrative in my 952 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,500 Head. That becomes a map for that 953 00:49:25,500 --> 00:49:29,300 particular maximum. Yeah, I think that's true. 954 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,200 There's other cases of that were. 955 00:49:31,300 --> 00:49:33,200 Yeah. Ideology blinds you. 956 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:37,000 It's sort of something like maybe like a 18 year old with a 957 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,300 Bob, Marley poster over their dorm couch, might say, but if 958 00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:42,900 you read something like A Confederacy of Dunces, which 959 00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:45,500 have you ever read that one? Yeah, I love it. 960 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:50,500 Okay, so well in 8th grade. I read that for a book report 961 00:49:50,500 --> 00:49:53,400 and for the book report I brought there's this In 962 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,900 Confederacy of Dunces where Ignatius de Riley's becomes a 963 00:49:57,900 --> 00:50:00,700 hot dog cart manager, that he's Wheeling around. 964 00:50:01,300 --> 00:50:04,600 So for my book report, I brought in a prop which was a set of 965 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,400 boxes stacked, on top of the skateboard, that was my hot dog 966 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,700 cart. And I think he's just as a 967 00:50:09,700 --> 00:50:15,700 visual prop, I guess for, for presenting my, my take on the 968 00:50:15,700 --> 00:50:19,800 book, most precocious thing I've ever heard, John Campbell your 969 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,800 little pull that off. Ignatius is a great example of 970 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:23,500 this. Right. 971 00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:25,800 Like he's always talking about but we Theus and The Wheel of 972 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,400 Fortune and the corrupt modern world and and he's just like 973 00:50:30,700 --> 00:50:36,100 lives with his mom and is a slob and always telling people that 974 00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:40,700 they're completely lacking in Theology and geometry which it's 975 00:50:40,700 --> 00:50:44,600 perfect. He's like extremely delusional 976 00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:46,600 and like lives in this made-up world. 977 00:50:46,900 --> 00:50:50,700 And yeah, you could picture some of like the hardcore 978 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,300 nature-based CDR people. Yet the technology see are 979 00:50:55,300 --> 00:50:58,200 people that they're all lacking in Theology and geometry? 980 00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:03,200 Yeah, there's there's maybe maybe you can apply it there if 981 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,500 you'd like, but yeah, you don't ever want to be that guy. 982 00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:10,700 And I really do, which is I saw great article in the New Yorker 983 00:51:10,700 --> 00:51:14,500 recently about how like Patrick Bateman from American Psycho and 984 00:51:14,500 --> 00:51:15,200 Ignatius. J. 985 00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:19,800 Riley are oftentimes found as protagonist that young men in 986 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,200 particular look up to was like these people are Is a satire 987 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,100 that you're not supposed to like these people. 988 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,800 They're clearly the Bad Guys. Don Quixote is the bad guy of 989 00:51:28,808 --> 00:51:32,400 Don Quixote Achilles is the bad guy or like one of the bad guys 990 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,000 of The Iliad? You're not supposed to go with 991 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,800 it. Yeah, well I'm sure we could 992 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,000 just goof around talking about books forever. 993 00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:43,200 Maybe one of the final things we should start wrapping up on 994 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:47,200 though, is Your Love of memes. What is happening in the world 995 00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,100 of carbon removal? Me Murray. 996 00:51:49,900 --> 00:51:54,500 Yeah, so funny in my newsletter, which everyone listening should 997 00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:58,000 sign up for especially if you want to hear about the next 998 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,100 problem packs as they get released, the bottom of every 999 00:52:01,100 --> 00:52:05,500 issue comes stocked with a the latest and greatest in the 1000 00:52:05,500 --> 00:52:08,800 carbon removal meme space. So I definitely feel very 1001 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,500 plugged into the Zeitgeist of the memes that are going around, 1002 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,300 but yeah, it's exciting. I like I like to see people 1003 00:52:17,500 --> 00:52:20,300 thinking about carbon removal in a way that Take itself. 1004 00:52:20,300 --> 00:52:24,600 So seriously all the time and where people are happy to just 1005 00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:28,100 goof around and have a connection on that level, where, 1006 00:52:28,500 --> 00:52:32,600 you know, there's more levity, more laughs and yeah, I'm a big 1007 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:37,500 fan of the work that's being done and not very dignified 1008 00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:42,500 area, the a dignified, memory signified, me Marie, I'm all for 1009 00:52:42,500 --> 00:52:45,200 it. Yeah, well John, if someone 1010 00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,400 wants to follow your work and get involved in any of this, 1011 00:52:48,500 --> 00:52:50,500 where should they go? Yeah, totally. 1012 00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:54,000 Well, problem packs is beginning to be built out and I'm working 1013 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,900 on a website for it'll be more official than what exists now, 1014 00:52:56,900 --> 00:53:01,200 but definitely subscribe to the sub stack where I post most 1015 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,800 announcements at Carbon travels dotsub stack.com. 1016 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,200 You can also check out carbon removal, academy.com, to see all 1017 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:12,200 those resources and like we said before, boot up dot are minors, 1018 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,500 dot-org is where you could sign up for that but also would love 1019 00:53:15,500 --> 00:53:17,400 to talk to people about all these things. 1020 00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:19,300 If you want to get involved with any of those things or have 1021 00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:20,600 ideas. It's about how to make them 1022 00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,300 better. I'm on are minors. 1023 00:53:22,300 --> 00:53:23,800 I'm on most of those climate communities. 1024 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,900 So, feel free to DM me, we love to chat. 1025 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,100 Great Links. All those things are in the show 1026 00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:31,200 notes, and thanks so much for being here, John. 1027 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,100 Yeah, thanks, Ross. This was fun. 1028 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,300 Fun for me to get in the Gap about books. 1029 00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:39,400 That's always a pleasure and if you like, also gabbing about 1030 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,800 books, you should join the patreon for Nori's. 1031 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,500 We have a book club which is fun John's in it. 1032 00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:46,100 You can come and hang out and talk to John about book. 1033 00:53:46,100 --> 00:53:49,500 Sometimes I don't have you mind me saying that John but it's 1034 00:53:51,100 --> 00:53:53,000 It's been a lot of fun. We have authors come out and 1035 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:57,400 chat with us sometimes, and we have a really nice community of 1036 00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,800 people talking about climate books and things that Jason. 1037 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,300 And if you like what we're doing here, please rate and review our 1038 00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:04,800 show in iTunes, or apple podcast, it makes a big 1039 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:06,400 difference. Helps us get this content out to 1040 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:14,200 more people and thank you so much for listening, and thank 1041 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,500 you so much for listening. If you like the show, please 1042 00:54:16,500 --> 00:54:19,200 rate and review it in apple podcast and or Stitcher. 1043 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,000 It really He helps us a lot to get this content to a wider 1044 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:23,600 audience. If you think what we're doing is 1045 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,600 useful, interesting fun. Hopefully, all three, we 1046 00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:28,100 certainly appreciate your rating and review. 1047 00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:31,000 You can keep up with Nori at nor e.com where there is a 1048 00:54:31,008 --> 00:54:33,400 newsletter that's Nori .com/srobiyt. 1049 00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,300 There's podcast, there's a whole bunch else or you can send us an 1050 00:54:36,300 --> 00:54:40,500 email at podcast at nor e.com. We are also now on patreon at 1051 00:54:40,500 --> 00:54:44,000 patreon.com slash Nori podcasts, if you'd like more content 1052 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,700 engagement and community and thank you so much for your 1053 00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:47,400 support.