1 00:00:05,100 --> 00:00:08,100 Hey everyone, welcome to season 2 of reversing climate change. 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,000 We are doing that podcasting. Now, in launching a patreon, you 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,000 can find it at patreon.com slash Nori podcasts. 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,100 There are various tiers with different types of goodies 5 00:00:16,100 --> 00:00:18,200 available. Do you want to receive a special 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,600 newsletter digest of what Nori knots are reading that week? 7 00:00:20,700 --> 00:00:23,700 Be a part of a Nori book club. Get special access to Nori 8 00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:25,900 events. 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Subscribe, and thank you so much 18 00:00:50,700 --> 00:00:53,200 for listening to another season of reversing climate change. 19 00:00:58,300 --> 00:01:00,200 Hello and welcome to the reversing climate Change 20 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,800 podcast. I'm Ross Kenyon today, I have 21 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,200 with me Eric, hold house meteorologist climate 22 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,000 correspondent at the correspondent and author of the 23 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,200 future Earth. A radical vision for what's 24 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,500 possible in the age of warming. Eric, thank you for being here. 25 00:01:14,100 --> 00:01:15,700 Yeah, no problem. Thank you for having me. 26 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:19,600 Yeah, my pleasure. What inspired you to do this? 27 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,400 Take on climate change because it does seem in some ways, it 28 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,400 really illustrates the stakes of climate change, but there's also 29 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,800 quite a lot of optimism built in here. 30 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:31,500 R2. It seems like you got me on both 31 00:01:31,500 --> 00:01:35,500 sides. That's great, that's great. 32 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,500 You're the target audience then right, train triangulated right 33 00:01:38,500 --> 00:01:43,000 in the middle no this book has a long backstory. 34 00:01:43,300 --> 00:01:49,100 It originally started about five years ago as a letter to my 35 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:54,400 oldest kid before he was even born and I started it not even 36 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,400 knowing at all. What was going to happen by the 37 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,100 time I finished and then it's harder to have a baby than I 38 00:02:01,107 --> 00:02:06,800 expected and so that book projects got sort of derailed 39 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,300 and put on the back burner and then I rebooted the book project 40 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,800 as a Choose Your Own Adventure book which is sort of like here 41 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:19,900 are the possible Futures and I sort of had an active plan of 42 00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:26,700 having sort of two-thirds of the scenarios being disasters 43 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,300 because I figured like, you know, that's about the Is that 44 00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:33,000 we have or I, that's what I thought at the moment. 45 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:37,200 And that was probably roughly early 2018. 46 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,100 I have they gotten better or since then, but it's gotten 47 00:02:40,100 --> 00:02:41,800 better. It's gotten a lot better, I 48 00:02:41,808 --> 00:02:42,500 think. Yeah. 49 00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:45,800 And it and it showed in my writing to, as I was going 50 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:51,200 through the year 2018 writing, that started to have the green 51 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,400 New Deal come into prominence and the school strikes in the 52 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,800 ipcc report and then I started thinking like my good sir. 53 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,600 Mario's are already kind of way, farther along than I expected. 54 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,000 Then to be like you know I had some things sketched out for the 55 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,400 late 2030s that were happening just nine months. 56 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,400 After I started this project and then my editor came back to me 57 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,700 and said how about let's scrap that entire idea and focus on 58 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,500 the good scenario, you know, the scenario where we do what we 59 00:03:23,500 --> 00:03:29,200 need to do. So I mentally rejected the idea 60 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,100 of Oops and and then sort of rewrote the book. 61 00:03:33,100 --> 00:03:39,000 The third time with an idea of this is what has to happen. 62 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:44,800 There's really no choice left for sort of a middle path that 63 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,200 it's now or never and we need to act that way. 64 00:03:47,300 --> 00:03:51,200 And that urgency, I think came out in the final version. 65 00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:55,200 One of the things I think is strongest is definitely the 66 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,300 visions that you're painting of the future and what kinds of 67 00:03:58,300 --> 00:03:59,800 changes might come about as a result. 68 00:03:59,900 --> 00:04:03,000 Result of climate change and most of them do seem to be 69 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,900 really positive. And you, so, you see this as a 70 00:04:05,908 --> 00:04:09,800 moment, we associate this with strongly with Naomi Klein but 71 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,000 you see climate change is a chance to sort of right the ship 72 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,300 as it were and fix many of the problems that have been 73 00:04:16,500 --> 00:04:19,899 permanently baked into the countries foundations, or the 74 00:04:19,899 --> 00:04:23,900 world economic structure. This is sort of the last chance 75 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:26,500 or that might exist to fix these things. 76 00:04:26,500 --> 00:04:28,300 Is that broadly how you see this crisis? 77 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:30,800 I don't think it's the last chance at all. 78 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,500 I think there are always chances continuously. 79 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:37,300 I think every day actually is a continuous stream of choices 80 00:04:37,300 --> 00:04:40,600 that we're making and I think that we can create our own 81 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,900 chances. So maybe that's the most 82 00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:46,300 optimistic part of the whole book is that it doesn't have to 83 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:50,200 wait that we don't have to find some perfect moment that the 84 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,200 Stars aligned just so happens this year in 2020. 85 00:04:54,500 --> 00:04:58,500 There's a lot of change happening and it seems suddenly 86 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:03,100 Not that far-fetched to imagine transformation on the scale that 87 00:05:03,100 --> 00:05:07,000 the ipcc sort of recommends is necessary. 88 00:05:07,700 --> 00:05:13,500 I think that having a picture of what we're fighting for and not 89 00:05:13,500 --> 00:05:17,100 necessarily what we're fighting against changes the Dynamics of 90 00:05:17,100 --> 00:05:19,800 the climate movement and that sort of the main intervention 91 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,600 that I want to make with spoke and you're right. 92 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,600 That a lot has changed this year. 93 00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:28,000 There are positions that related to the prison and police 94 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,200 abolition. Were once friends of mine who 95 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,900 were pretty deep on the left reading, Angela Davis, and 96 00:05:32,900 --> 00:05:35,800 people like that, I have suddenly became come mainstream 97 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,800 policy positions for a lot of people or nearly mainstream. 98 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,300 I don't know if you see it in the same way that climate has 99 00:05:41,300 --> 00:05:44,900 had this to where the influence of Sunrise, movement and 100 00:05:44,900 --> 00:05:47,600 gratitude Berg. Those positions are seemingly 101 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:49,500 more and more mainstream if they're not already. 102 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,300 So it does seem like quite a lot of changes happening fast and I 103 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:55,800 doubt we've seen the end of it. Yeah, I definitely agree. 104 00:05:56,100 --> 00:06:00,400 I see the numbers coming out. Out of places like data for 105 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,200 Progress who who's kind of sole reason for existing is to put 106 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:10,000 numbers on these issues. In a way that other polling 107 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,200 firms. Don't asking questions about 108 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,000 detailed policy of the green New Deal, how does that pull 109 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,100 nationally? It's kind of shocking to see how 110 00:06:19,100 --> 00:06:25,000 quickly those ideas have also become mainstream like 100% 111 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,800 renewable energy which was really kind of laughed at Just a 112 00:06:28,808 --> 00:06:32,000 couple of years ago in the climate movement, the idea of 113 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:36,100 the wedge issue now is, is do you count nuclear power as 114 00:06:36,100 --> 00:06:40,600 renewable energy or not? It's not really a question of 115 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,100 this is never going to be politically possible, so why do 116 00:06:43,100 --> 00:06:46,700 we even talk about it? It's become how quickly can we 117 00:06:46,700 --> 00:06:51,600 make it happen, you know, is it possible to have 100% renewable 118 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:54,700 u.s. electrical Grid in 10 years? 119 00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:58,200 Maybe it seems a lot more possible than it was 18 months 120 00:06:58,200 --> 00:06:59,200 ago. That's for sure. 121 00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:05,300 So I do think that if you pull the general public, that may not 122 00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:09,200 have a technical understanding of what that would require it 123 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:14,000 pulls, probably even better than it would among climate experts, 124 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,600 which means that the climate movement is constantly being 125 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,000 pushed and shifted from sort of democracy. 126 00:07:22,100 --> 00:07:27,000 From what people think is necessary to do this work the 127 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,300 right way. I see the that sort of maps with 128 00:07:30,300 --> 00:07:33,900 how I understand it too. Would you allow me to read your 129 00:07:33,900 --> 00:07:35,900 own words back to you? Sure. 130 00:07:36,700 --> 00:07:38,200 Sure. Okay. 131 00:07:38,500 --> 00:07:40,500 Maybe this will help us frame this next part of the 132 00:07:40,508 --> 00:07:44,500 discussion, you wrote success on climate change, where it can 133 00:07:44,500 --> 00:07:47,900 exist will look like democracy to build a sustainable and just 134 00:07:47,900 --> 00:07:50,200 world for the next Century. Everyone will have to 135 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,900 participate especially those who have been excluded from the 136 00:07:52,900 --> 00:07:54,700 political process for far too long. 137 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,200 And inclusive Society is a just society in which we all listen. 138 00:07:58,300 --> 00:08:01,300 One another with genuine care where to start. 139 00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:04,900 I am not that sort of like a key nugget that I think helps 140 00:08:04,900 --> 00:08:07,700 understand the entire book. But thank you Steve. 141 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:10,400 Yeah. So it isn't just about climate 142 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:11,600 change. You have a bunch of other quotes 143 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,000 in there about how if we could just magically remove excess, 144 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,700 CO2 from the atmosphere and get down to an appropriate parts per 145 00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:20,100 million. That's still wouldn't be good 146 00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:22,100 enough and we wouldn't have, I don't know. 147 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:23,800 What do you mean is the right way to say it? 148 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,700 Because there's an intensive and bad way to say it. 149 00:08:25,700 --> 00:08:27,600 But if you could solve climate change without addressing any of 150 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,800 the Racial injustices or inequality. 151 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,200 Should we even consider that as a possibility or do you need to 152 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:35,600 address them all at the same time? 153 00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:36,600 Yeah. No. 154 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,900 This is a great again speaking from June 2020. 155 00:08:41,100 --> 00:08:43,400 This is sort of the question that suddenly on everyone's 156 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,700 Minds is is how far deep does the climate movement go at its 157 00:08:47,700 --> 00:08:51,000 core, is this a movement for equality and justice? 158 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,900 I think that case is being made pretty clearly and forcefully. 159 00:08:54,900 --> 00:08:59,900 Now in ways that may not have Gotten the attention. 160 00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:02,100 It deserved even just four weeks ago. 161 00:09:02,500 --> 00:09:06,700 So, yeah, I think that the starting point from this book is 162 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:10,400 that kind of an open question to the reader of what is the world 163 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,400 that you're trying to create like what is the point of what 164 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,800 we're doing here in like a civilizational scale? 165 00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:23,200 Like is it to provide a good life for everyone within 166 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,700 planetary boundaries? I mean I think that's kind of 167 00:09:25,708 --> 00:09:28,100 what I would answer that question. 168 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:32,400 Too often, I think the climate movement gets caught in the goal 169 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:38,100 is to reduce emissions or the goal is to advocate for a 170 00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:41,500 renewable energy. I think those are just sort of 171 00:09:41,500 --> 00:09:45,500 like tertiary goals. Climate change itself, is a 172 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:51,100 symptom of a broader structural unjust society that I don't 173 00:09:51,100 --> 00:09:54,700 think climate change would have happened, if we would have 174 00:09:54,700 --> 00:09:59,100 really lived out the values that are in, And like, for example, 175 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:04,600 in the US, declaration of independence because unalienable 176 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,100 rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 177 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:13,800 And we haven't really acted that way as a country that all ever. 178 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:18,100 And I'm just sort of wondering like what would have happened if 179 00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:22,100 we did, and we still can pretty much any day, we can change 180 00:10:22,100 --> 00:10:24,900 that. So and I know that those roots 181 00:10:24,900 --> 00:10:28,200 run super deep and we're talking about hundreds. 182 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,100 And hundreds of years of History here. 183 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,300 But that doesn't mean just because that's the way we did 184 00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:36,000 things in the past, doesn't mean it has to be the way we do it in 185 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,200 the future. And I think that having climate 186 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,100 change be seen as a symptom of the problem rather than the 187 00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:47,100 problem itself. I think lends itself to a whole 188 00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:52,900 list of solutions that are not, maybe immediately thought of as 189 00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:58,100 climate Solutions, universal access to housing and food. 190 00:10:58,300 --> 00:11:03,300 Water and public services focused on care or rather than 191 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:10,800 on upholding certain rules that were put in place to serve small 192 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,100 groups of people without sized amount of power. 193 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:18,200 I don't know. I feel like we wrestle with 194 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:23,800 details that I think if we just all took one big step back would 195 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,500 sort of drift away. I think that we really agree on 196 00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:31,400 a lot. More than we think we do and 197 00:11:31,700 --> 00:11:37,200 that thinking of climate as a justice issue primarily makes it 198 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,500 a lot easier to align with other Justice movements in a lot 199 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:44,900 easier to think about what it is. 200 00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:49,600 We're actually trying to do what I say in the book is that the 201 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,600 issue is really with this and the the concept of ownership 202 00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:58,700 because if you if you go back in, this is Kind of A New 203 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:00,900 Concept. It's only two or three hundred 204 00:12:00,900 --> 00:12:04,600 years old the idea of private property and what ownership 205 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,600 means. I think that before the 206 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:12,300 Industrial Revolution that we were working a lot more with a 207 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:16,400 general common understanding of community ownership and 208 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,400 community property. I am definitely not an economist 209 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:27,000 or a lawyer or well-versed on what happens over the last 300 210 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,400 years to change that That but I know that if you change the 211 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,300 prevailing mindset of civilization which of course 212 00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:42,900 easy to do that, we are all sort of here on a finite Planet 213 00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:48,300 together and only through caring for each other and caring for 214 00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:50,300 our home. Will we be able to survive? 215 00:12:50,300 --> 00:12:54,600 Which is kind of the situation we're in right now after two or 216 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,300 three hundred years of extractive? 217 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,100 And of wealth into a few people's hands. 218 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,400 We're at the point now where it's clear to see. 219 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:11,900 That was destructive for many, many people in many places. 220 00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:16,300 So in the book, I have this conversation with Samantha Earl, 221 00:13:16,300 --> 00:13:21,500 who's a philosopher talking about liminal space and 222 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,300 specifically about the idea of ownership. 223 00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:27,900 So thinking of liminal space as this. 224 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,600 Transitory time, you know that the future will be very 225 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,600 different from the present, you know, that you will be making a 226 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,300 fundamental transition. But you don't know exactly what 227 00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:43,100 it's going to look or feel like or what you will be or what will 228 00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:45,800 exist at the end when you're done with that transition. 229 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,400 All, you know, is that the transition is going to happen. 230 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,700 So, we are in that space right now. 231 00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:56,000 As a civilization really I think for the first time in a 232 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,900 conscious way, we are all Connected and all understand 233 00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:08,000 that climate change has put a time limit on this transition. 234 00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:12,300 In that climate change itself, has physically connected us in a 235 00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:16,000 way that Collective decision-making hasn't really 236 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,600 before on a global scale, but in the book. 237 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,800 So I just summarize this idea of ownership. 238 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,200 I'm just going to read a little bit. 239 00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:29,700 With ownership comes control, with control, comes hierarchies 240 00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:32,100 of power. Those who own more can 241 00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:35,200 marginalize and take advantage of those who, unless the concept 242 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,400 of ownership is connected to all of our social struggles, 243 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:41,400 misogyny racism, colonialism and the corruption of modern 244 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,000 democracy. And of course the concept of 245 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,900 ownership has directly resulted in the climate emergency which 246 00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:49,900 is really a crisis over consumption by those who are 247 00:14:49,900 --> 00:14:52,100 ready control. Most of the world's Resources 248 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,000 with dire consequences for those who owned almost nothing. 249 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,000 Is to a world built on ownership may feel unfathomable right now, 250 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,700 but it's what we all need to strive for if we're going to 251 00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:07,600 survive the century. So with that, I mean that when 252 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:13,800 we are in this sort of Uncharted Territory, as planet now is the 253 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:21,600 time to sort of go to the root of the problem and imagine 254 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,200 completely orthogonal. Completely Divergent ideas that 255 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,700 don't recreate the problem that we have spent the last 300 years 256 00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:33,600 trying to fix. And that's what I really mean. 257 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,700 That's what I'm trying to take a first stab at with the whole 258 00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:42,400 book is what could the future look like in a world where we 259 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,400 challenge that sort of formational issue of. 260 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:51,100 Climate change exists in the first place, huh, ownership? 261 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,200 It's an interesting Locus to pin this on. 262 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,300 There's multiple levels to think about it, on which the first one 263 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:02,800 is just kind of obvious is institutional, which is what 264 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,000 sorts of property rights and property rules might exist is 265 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,800 something more like common pool resources like Elinor Ostrom is 266 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,600 this something like old peasant rotational writes something from 267 00:16:14,100 --> 00:16:17,500 various indigenous Traditions but But broader than just, the 268 00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:22,100 institutional point is one about the ontological phenomenological 269 00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:27,600 experience of your human relationship with objects and I 270 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,800 suppose it would change how we viewed the world and things that 271 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,700 we quote unquote own if we didn't see them as being owned 272 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:40,100 but us is merely being stewards of them or guarding them for our 273 00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:43,100 descendants or for the World At Large. 274 00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:46,300 You're saying that it's almost more like a spiritual change is 275 00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:49,900 that Yeah yeah exactly. You know I'm getting close to 276 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:51,000 it. Yeah. 277 00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:52,500 Yeah. You I think you got it. 278 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,400 And again hopefully I'm very transparent about this. 279 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,200 In the book is that I don't know the first thing about, what 280 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,500 should come next. I think that the job that this 281 00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:08,400 book does is just identifying the problem, and actually 282 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,200 doesn't even I'm clearly not the first person to talk or think 283 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:17,400 about this this way, I'm trying to sort of assemble A group of 284 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:23,099 voices that are hopefully, a little a little bit coherent in 285 00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:27,000 the way that I put it together about, what kinds of things 286 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,600 should. We be working for in the climate 287 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,500 movement, and what kinds of things can happen? 288 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:38,700 When we do that work together, when we try to imagine a world 289 00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:41,600 that is still this world. But different? 290 00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:46,400 Yeah, well in your Twitter bio you lost yourself. 291 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,500 As an Eco socialists. I'm at imagine there's some 292 00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:53,000 relation between the ideas that you're talking about here and 293 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,100 the vision of Eco Socialism or are they diverging somehow? 294 00:17:56,500 --> 00:18:00,800 No, I think that's true. And again, I have a conversation 295 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,100 with credit une Berg and with Kate raworth in this book, 296 00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:09,800 talking about what kind of system economic or political 297 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:15,500 system could come next door or might come next, if we get 298 00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:19,400 through. This sort of 10-year Green New 299 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:25,700 Deal, transition moment and that opens us up to an opportunity to 300 00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:30,900 sort of put in place, a totally different governing ethics. 301 00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:36,300 Then, what would that look like? I honestly don't know and that 302 00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:40,100 was Greta's answer to me is that it just hasn't been invented 303 00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:41,900 yet. Like, we're doing it all for the 304 00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:46,000 first time in this context. Clearly like we've never had a 305 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,900 year. 20 before. So we don't really have anything 306 00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:53,400 to base this on and I think, yeah, thinking about it, more of 307 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,200 a sort of philosophical or spiritual problem. 308 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,700 I think is closer to what it actually is. 309 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,400 We're sort of trying to strive to figure out what we're going 310 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,500 to be right now and that is a very much open question. 311 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,400 But yeah. In Kate, raworth also sort of 312 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,900 pushed back on the idea of Socialism or capitalism or any 313 00:19:14,900 --> 00:19:18,200 label saying that. That why bring that baggage with 314 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:23,700 you if you're making this sort of transitional bleep to a new 315 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,600 type of world, then why bring those labels with you? 316 00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:30,700 So I don't know. Maybe it doesn't even need a 317 00:19:30,708 --> 00:19:32,700 label but maybe I should take that out. 318 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:36,500 Twitter bio, I don't know. I think that in the Twitter bio 319 00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:40,600 at least it's mostly like a provocation that I think that to 320 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,100 get people to ask me the exact question that you asked me. 321 00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:46,300 Oh man, I fell for it, huh? Yeah. 322 00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:50,900 I think that what needs to happen is an ecologically 323 00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:54,500 focused world. Going back again to sort of the 324 00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:59,200 core of who we are like we are animals and we live on a planet 325 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:04,600 with other animals and plants and other living things and 326 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,100 that's really what it is. You know, I don't know, like 327 00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:12,400 everything that we should do should extend from that as the 328 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,300 fundamental truth that we're all sort of part of an ecosystem. 329 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,500 We are a part of an ecosystem and our politics and our 330 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:26,300 economics, should all be sort of drawn out of that truth. 331 00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:30,600 I guess that's what I mean by Eco socialism is that we will 332 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:36,300 not be able to survive if we're sort of in a competitive focused 333 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:41,300 economic system on a finite planet and that at the same 334 00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:46,200 time, I Still, You Know, believe in those aspirational. 335 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,700 Words of the Declaration of Independence that we are all 336 00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:54,900 entitled to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness that that 337 00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:58,700 is possible with the resources that we have on the planet in a 338 00:20:58,700 --> 00:21:01,600 way that it doesn't destroy the planet at the same time. 339 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:07,200 I mean, that's a belief system that's like a, you know, again, 340 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,500 we're talking about spirituality like that's like bordering on 341 00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:14,700 sort of like a religious belief for me. 342 00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:17,400 Maybe, I don't know because otherwise if It wasn't true. 343 00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:19,900 Then I don't really know what to do. 344 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,000 I don't have a direction for my life. 345 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:28,600 If it's not possible for us all to live, or to enjoy the world. 346 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,400 And if it's not possible for us to respect all the other 347 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,500 millions of species that we're here with at the same time, then 348 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:40,900 I'm not sure what we're doing for enough at this. 349 00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:43,900 I respect that you're willing to say that you don't know things 350 00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:46,200 which that that has gone out of fashion. 351 00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:48,300 Of things that I don't know. Yeah. 352 00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:50,000 Yeah. Myself included. 353 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:52,500 I also, I really like that point, I can't write worth Meg's 354 00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:55,300 that those words, capitalism. And socialism do have a lot of 355 00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:58,700 baggage, and even myself, sometimes I can end up feeling 356 00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:01,200 defensive or triggered. If it's framed in the wrong 357 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,500 kinds of way, because there are things about capitalism that I 358 00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:06,200 do, like, I like cooperation. So I think you're trying to make 359 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,300 like a, like a kropotkin. Mutual Aid. 360 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,000 Cooperation is a stronger predictor for evolutionary 361 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,100 history than competition. Yeah, that's that's a point 362 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:16,600 worthy of being made. Made. 363 00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:19,200 But there's also things I like about competition to there's 364 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,600 things. I like about certain types of 365 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,000 property rights that I want to be preserved. 366 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,600 I like I like markets to but there's also really interesting 367 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,200 work that Kate does. And then also radical markets by 368 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,500 Glenn while on Eric Posner. I really like to which is there 369 00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:36,500 thinking about how do you use markets in ways such that they 370 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,800 equilibrate in driving towards egalitarians outcomes? 371 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,600 And I'm like oh this is creative this sort of breaks the right 372 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,300 left thinking on markets and a really really cool. 373 00:22:46,500 --> 00:22:51,100 A and it preserves what I like about markets to sew but you 374 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:52,200 always wonder about things like that. 375 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,600 Does that does that mean everyone agrees and converges on 376 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:55,900 it? Or does everyone find something 377 00:22:55,900 --> 00:23:00,300 that they hate about it and reject it could be either but in 378 00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:02,500 any case though I think not talking at the level of 379 00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:06,100 capitalism or socialism is good because the details matter right 380 00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:08,500 there are good and bad versions. Probably a both of those 381 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,800 actually I don't know if you agree with that or not but 382 00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:14,200 depends on what we mean. Yeah, and I think I would just 383 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,500 go even more fundamental and say like, what is the world that 384 00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:20,800 needs to exist and then just do it. 385 00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:23,900 Like, I don't know, I don't know that. 386 00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:27,800 It's worth really even comparing different systems. 387 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:33,600 I guess in that way, it is, sort of like a market-based system in 388 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,700 a way where it's just like, you try a bunch of things and keep 389 00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:39,200 doing what works and don't do, what doesn't work. 390 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,000 I guess that is kind of what a market is. 391 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,900 Yeah, like that's the type of competition maybe. 392 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,700 But then there's other types of competition where I think we 393 00:23:46,708 --> 00:23:48,900 could both be like, yeah, this probably isn't in Humanity's 394 00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:52,100 best interest to compete over this, right? 395 00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:53,500 Yeah. And that's where I think there's 396 00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:57,800 should be and it is sort of like a baseline governing document 397 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,100 for human civilization, which is like the universal Declaration 398 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,400 on human rights or something like that. 399 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:10,200 I think there are opportunities to redo those documents that 400 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,100 include more voices other than Just sort of like the Europeans 401 00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:20,400 that wrote them, but I think that there are very basic 402 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:26,900 things, that, that people can agree on, and then the goal of 403 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,200 broader Human Society should be to cooperate with each other to 404 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:37,600 make communities able to carry those out at the local scale as 405 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,300 best as we can, and it's going to look super different in 406 00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:42,300 different places with different embedded. 407 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,800 And geographies and people and traditions. 408 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:51,800 And so yeah, what I mean, what Kate raworth is really also a 409 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,800 big fan of distributed production. 410 00:24:54,900 --> 00:24:58,300 So she's talking about, you know, democratizing everything, 411 00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:04,900 basically, saying that decision, making production design of 412 00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:10,200 systems, all of that should be sort of able to be 413 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,200 self-determined even like a house. 414 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:16,800 All to community level scale that there are things that we 415 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:22,400 can sort of share in common like blueprints for 3D printed parts 416 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,400 and then like, let people do what they need to do with that 417 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,600 and I love that information, sort of just like libraries or 418 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,100 is it a library? Is a great invention in that 419 00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:39,700 it's a community resource. But any individual can use it at 420 00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:42,800 any time. I don't know, we have If we have 421 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,700 a seed Library here, where you can check out seeds, plant them 422 00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:50,600 in your garden and then like redeposit the seeds the next 423 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,800 year when you harvest them. So, I don't know. 424 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,900 I think that they'll be opportunity for that kind of 425 00:25:55,900 --> 00:26:00,900 stuff and all that is, of course, lower carbon than having 426 00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:04,500 the sort of hyper globalization that we have right now. 427 00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:08,400 I mean, because you can see how hyperglobalisation breaks down 428 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,300 when you have a pandemic or when you have a shock to the system. 429 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,300 Anyway and then the people who are left out during those 430 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,300 breakdowns are the people who are marginalized in the society. 431 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,600 So even here in Minneapolis, use have seen over the last three or 432 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,300 four weeks, a huge outpouring of the, these ideas and groups 433 00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:32,200 focused on Mutual Aid people, caring for Neighbors, caring for 434 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,800 each other. The same thing happened in 435 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,200 Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria. 436 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,700 I feel like that is a little bit more of a model. 437 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:49,700 For sort of Effective Government in a period of escalating chaos 438 00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:52,900 and shocks. Like we're going to have for the 439 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:58,000 next 30 to 50 years and probably longer climate disasters that 440 00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,800 keep getting worse. No matter what we do. 441 00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:05,000 Even if we stopped all emissions today there is a roughly 50 442 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,900 year, equilibrium period where temperatures are not going to 443 00:27:08,908 --> 00:27:11,700 start going back down for about 50 years or so. 444 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,400 Because of the physical sequestering of carbon in the 445 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,300 ocean that takes that long for the ocean to turn over to sort 446 00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:25,000 of update itself. And so that is part of what I 447 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,400 have running in my head this entire, throughout this entire 448 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,500 book, is that things are going to keep getting worse, even 449 00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:33,200 though they're getting better at the same time. 450 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,200 So you sort of have to have the Long View by definition. 451 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:42,100 Because the work that you're doing today is not going to 452 00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:48,700 Potentially lead to better real outcomes for a long time. 453 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,900 In the meantime, the next few decades is going to look like 454 00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:54,500 all of us in crisis mode, caring, for each other. 455 00:27:55,300 --> 00:28:00,400 That's just sort of my take. Yeah, well, there's certainly is 456 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,000 a lot there, I like that. And I like often. 457 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,200 When we have conservatives on the podcast to one of the 458 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,200 convergent things that we all land on is sort of the scale. 459 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,800 Of these relationships is too big right now and some ways. 460 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,000 One of the most radical things you can do is actually know your 461 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,700 neighbors and take care of them. And I think I think that's just 462 00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:26,100 sort of a universal Grand. I live in Seattle and so even 463 00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:27,800 yesterday, I was walking down the hall and someone 464 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,200 deliberately looked away. It's like, I know you, man, I 465 00:28:31,208 --> 00:28:33,400 know you're not. He's Dragon trouble looking like 466 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,900 a little Synod, the mark of the human-like. 467 00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:38,800 Give me a little nod. No, but I'm in the process of 468 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,400 moving right now. I'm really trying to get the 469 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,200 note being Neighborly and actually doing that. 470 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,500 And one of the criticisms of the left from the left that I've 471 00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:51,900 always really liked is from Dorothy Day, who says something 472 00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:55,300 akin to. The welfare state has meant that 473 00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:58,900 we have outsourced, our Christian duty to take care of 474 00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:03,600 our neighbors to the sort of impersonal distant entity and 475 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,900 really like your duty is to do that yourself as a work of 476 00:29:07,900 --> 00:29:11,900 Mercy, as she might say it. And so I like your focus on care 477 00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:13,600 work, I think. And I think that's it's both 478 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,900 good for the person receiving it and the person giving it. 479 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,900 And I think we would live in a happier healthier place of 480 00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:21,600 people did that, right? Yeah, I think so. 481 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,300 I mean, I was also thinking this is getting a little bit off 482 00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:26,600 topic. Maybe I do maybe not, you should 483 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:31,100 just go for it. I think Stu, you know, my last 484 00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:34,600 five years. Like I said, in the intro, has 485 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,200 been mostly defined by me, becoming a dad. 486 00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:41,500 And so I've been understand and I had both of my kids are boys. 487 00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:45,500 So I've been Trying to think about what it means to be a man, 488 00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:50,700 raising two, boys in this world. And I think that honestly care 489 00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:55,900 work, and sort of understanding the complexity of your 490 00:29:55,900 --> 00:30:00,000 relationship to the world, is how everything you do. 491 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,400 Impacts, everyone else is such an essential part of masculinity 492 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,900 in this world that the book is set in, you know, the next 30 493 00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:12,200 years. If we do it right, it's going to 494 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:18,700 Men feeling comfortable and secure in the fact that they can 495 00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:21,100 care for each other and love each other. 496 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,300 In a sort of, like Society building kind of way, like, if 497 00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:29,000 you want to call it, toxic masculinity or any any number of 498 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:34,300 different labels for it. But I think that is such a huge 499 00:30:34,300 --> 00:30:41,600 part of what this whole struggle is, is feeling entitled and 500 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:47,300 feeling, Like, you are somehow above doing all of that work 501 00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:50,200 that everyone else has to do. But for some reason, you've 502 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:55,400 purchased that right for yourself to not have to care 503 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,400 about that kind of stuff. I feel like grow when I was 504 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,400 growing up in a small town in Kansas and like playing on the 505 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,300 football team. That was definitely sorry. 506 00:31:05,300 --> 00:31:09,200 Felt like what is just like? This is how you're taught, how 507 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,700 to be a man is that you're tough and like you don't Have to care 508 00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:15,100 for each other. That you can do it yourself. 509 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,500 And when you get into such a hyper individualized way and 510 00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:22,500 realize that you aren't able to do it yourself but yet you have 511 00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:26,800 not developed any skills, how to ask for help or how to admit, 512 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,600 you're wrong or how to reach out, and genuinely, check in on 513 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,000 your friends, be there for each other. 514 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,700 Like, that's the work that needs to be done right now. 515 00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:46,800 And I think If men did that work more, that it would all kind of 516 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,000 work out. Maybe that's like to 517 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,000 essentializing the problem too much, but I think that's a huge 518 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,200 part of what the hurdle is right now, is that is that we need to 519 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:04,100 sort of think about what our responsibility is to each other 520 00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:07,800 and then just go and do it. Don't wait for someone else to 521 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,600 teach you how like learn on your own and do it. 522 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:11,900 Everyone's capable of doing that. 523 00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:16,300 Yeah, that's a good point. I find, even when I speak with 524 00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:20,400 people, that I might not agree with on everything, I think 525 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,500 there's something about social media that exacerbates this, a 526 00:32:23,508 --> 00:32:26,500 hundredfold, but if there are people that, you know, from 527 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,200 around your neighborhood, where that you see around and they 528 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,800 have up a persistent, even if you thought that they were 529 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,600 upset, for no reason telling someone that they're upset for 530 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,600 no reason doesn't seem to solve that problem ever, not really? 531 00:32:39,700 --> 00:32:44,700 Yeah, for anyone who has Rocket with humans for a long period of 532 00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:46,400 time, you should should know this one. 533 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,100 Although I seemingly have to relearn it every so often part 534 00:32:49,100 --> 00:32:52,100 of it is just like getting good at listening and knowing how to 535 00:32:52,900 --> 00:32:54,500 even like interact on that level. 536 00:32:54,900 --> 00:32:58,700 I don't really connect that to my thinking on climate change 537 00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:02,000 but I think part of what you're saying is that some of this non 538 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:07,100 listening kind of aggressive, toxic masculine attributes are 539 00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:09,300 linked. Perhaps to your views on 540 00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:12,800 ownership and how it sort of like a dominance mentality, is 541 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,700 that Fair to say, yeah, but I think in my experience, the 542 00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:21,500 dominance comes primarily out of fear where you are, afraid to do 543 00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:24,100 things that are uncomfortable. And so you just choose not to, 544 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,000 and then it snowballs and then it gets out of hand. 545 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,700 And then you end up with 300 years of like, colonialism and 546 00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:35,100 slavery. I don't know. 547 00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:41,500 It's also, yeah, I mean, to be more explicitly climate-related. 548 00:33:41,500 --> 00:33:42,900 It is pervasive throughout the environment. 549 00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:46,600 Metal movement, this kind of idea of we know what's better 550 00:33:46,900 --> 00:33:50,700 for you than you do. Like solar panels aren't super 551 00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:55,300 important if they're connected to a system that is sort of 552 00:33:55,300 --> 00:33:58,500 perpetuating a consumption based culture. 553 00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:02,700 What is that called? Is that jevons Paradox? 554 00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:07,400 Where increases in efficiency actually end up creating more 555 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:12,000 total consumption and the end. Yeah, so like like lighting is a 556 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,500 perfect example. Oh, we're Total Electric use 557 00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:17,699 electricity. Use on lighting has actually 558 00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:22,199 increased, because you have things, like cities, installing 559 00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:27,800 LED lights everywhere, where maybe they, they didn't 560 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,500 previously have the budget to do that. 561 00:34:29,699 --> 00:34:33,699 Now that the cost of lighting has decreased by 90% or more, 562 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,500 same thing is probably happening with batteries right now. 563 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:41,300 I mean, this is General is like the push to Electrify. 564 00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:45,800 Everything is going. Create hyper-consumption of all 565 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,900 of these Technologies. If we don't have it attached to 566 00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:54,000 a system of Ethics that prevents that from happening. 567 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,500 Yeah, I don't want to get into the Michael Moore movie. 568 00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:02,500 Let's all I had a feeling he said something that caught my 569 00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:06,200 ear for that, but we don't ya where-where's. 570 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:11,700 Like the point of that movie to me, was I say, I don't want to 571 00:35:11,707 --> 00:35:13,000 get into it and then I start talking about it. 572 00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:16,900 The point of and you ignore it and keep going. 573 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:23,100 Yeah, the idea was that the in renewable energy industry is 574 00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:25,900 actually worse than the fossil fuel industry because you 575 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:31,100 require Mining and consumption to create solar panels like you 576 00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:36,300 have to be so pure that you have to exist as like a pure energy 577 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:39,700 being to have no footprint and the world like which it clearly 578 00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:45,100 doesn't happen. So there's that, there's a risk 579 00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:49,500 of getting into that like a logical trap, but there are also 580 00:35:49,500 --> 00:35:55,200 the opposite could happen where we focus as a society on 581 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,100 reducing actively reducing inequality, like repairing. 582 00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:03,700 The harms of the last few hundred years in a world where 583 00:36:03,700 --> 00:36:07,200 we have a wealth tax and distribute that income to 584 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:12,900 improve standards of living for the 20-ish percent of the world. 585 00:36:12,900 --> 00:36:15,700 Who Still doesn't have the still don't have access to 586 00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:19,800 electricity. We could do that very easily and 587 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,500 sort of at the same time, reduce total emissions potentially. 588 00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:28,800 So we just repurpose the emissions that we currently have 589 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:34,200 away from things, like luxury, air travel in business class for 590 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:40,600 the weekend to things like guaranteeing universal access to 591 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:46,500 housing and food and water and Even internet and libraries and 592 00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:49,600 health care and all of those things that have become 593 00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:51,900 Necessities to having a good life. 594 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,000 I think it's possible to redistribute that and not have a 595 00:36:56,300 --> 00:37:00,100 net change in our missions. And also in the process of doing 596 00:37:00,100 --> 00:37:04,300 that transition, we would have a world that was explicitly 597 00:37:04,300 --> 00:37:08,000 focused on making things better for the vast majority of people. 598 00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:13,400 And so, I think we would sort of break that addiction to Over 599 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,000 consumption in the process. Anyway, now, I'm just sort of 600 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,700 like, throwing ideas out. No, it's fine. 601 00:37:19,700 --> 00:37:22,900 It's totally, totally welcome. Yeah, I'm gonna ignore the 602 00:37:22,900 --> 00:37:25,500 Michael more stuff and Skip ahead to the other side. 603 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,900 Yeah, the the points about consumption, I think are 604 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,900 interesting and I think there, maybe this link is less strong 605 00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:35,400 that I think it is, but you talked about maybe having a 606 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,100 four-day work week and a basic income and I most the time when 607 00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:41,400 I buy stuff off of Amazon, assuming it's not stuff that I 608 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,100 could like make myself a Make make a book that I want to read 609 00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:48,000 besides stuff like that. I like doing stuff myself. 610 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,200 I do a lot of crafting and increasingly more crafting and 611 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,800 gardening and trying to like buy less stuff. 612 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,800 And I found my enjoyment is actually increased. 613 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,700 I don't feel deprived that I don't get instantaneous 614 00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:03,200 satisfaction. I like becoming better at things 615 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,400 and you don't become better at things by buying things off of 616 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,300 Amazon. You have to do that by going out 617 00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:11,400 in your garage and whittling something or using a lathe, 618 00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:13,400 that's how you sew. I don't know. 619 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,500 I think I kind of associate that a little bit with care work, 620 00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:18,000 even though maybe it's self-care or just learning makes you feel 621 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,700 good, but I wish it was more common. 622 00:38:20,300 --> 00:38:22,600 Yeah, yeah. And of course, there's a lot of 623 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,000 privilege baked into being able to have time to do all that 624 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,500 stuff. Like, I have a garden and I 625 00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:34,600 spend, you know, maybe a half an hour to an hour a day, not even 626 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,300 actually yeah, it doesn't actually take that much time, 627 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,700 but I know that it also doesn't fulfill all of my food 628 00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:46,200 requirements. Or any right now, actually, 629 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,600 because I haven't Harvest anything of it off of it yet. 630 00:38:48,700 --> 00:38:53,100 So yeah, there are things that we've become dependent on in the 631 00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:57,300 world that we have and the Frank honest truth is that's going to 632 00:38:57,300 --> 00:39:02,200 have to change a little bit and that's I think the reality that 633 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,900 the environmental movement shies away from when we're talking 634 00:39:05,900 --> 00:39:09,600 about and especially it seems to be like a hot-button issue on 635 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,800 flying where almost everyone gets to Pensive when you talk 636 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,300 about flying myself included, even like several years ago, I 637 00:39:18,300 --> 00:39:21,200 decided that I would never fly again like on spur-of-the-moment 638 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,400 decision. And then I took a job based in 639 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:30,600 Amsterdam and so I have had to fly a few times since I made 640 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,900 that decision and I get very defensive even in my internal 641 00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:38,100 monologue about it. When I talk about like, well, I 642 00:39:38,100 --> 00:39:41,100 wouldn't be able to do the work if I didn't take this flight, I 643 00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:43,800 don't know. I think that again, The last 644 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,700 three months of the pandemic ho has proven to us that we can 645 00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:50,900 live radically different lives. They've been forced on us so 646 00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:53,900 suddenly that they've become really damaging for a lot of 647 00:39:53,900 --> 00:39:57,900 people who didn't have time to prepare for it, but it is 648 00:39:57,900 --> 00:40:01,600 possible to have a radically different way of doing things 649 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,800 like air travel is not really a necessity. 650 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,700 I don't think I mean obviously that a lot of people will 651 00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:12,800 disagree with me on that, but the fact that we have families 652 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,600 Spread all throughout the world now makes it functional 653 00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:18,000 necessity. If you want to have a 654 00:40:18,008 --> 00:40:23,500 relationship with them in person so there I think there will be a 655 00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:27,800 transition time. Yea like I said like 50 to 200 656 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,600 year period of transition time where we are sort of not only 657 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,900 are we zero-carbon but we are rebuilding. 658 00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:40,500 The whole purpose of our society in the zero-carbon context like 659 00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:46,400 it's easy to reduce emissions. Zero even but it's hard to sort 660 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,900 of have entire world. That makes it stay that way 661 00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:52,700 where everyone has a good life, I think. 662 00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:58,900 Yeah, I think you're probably right about air travel and you 663 00:40:58,908 --> 00:41:01,800 give appropriate caveats for it before. 664 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,300 The covid happened. I would have to travel maybe 665 00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:07,800 once a month, maybe twice. For for work travel. 666 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,500 I am happy that I no longer have to do that. 667 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,500 I used to think that I enjoyed getting to see See various 668 00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:17,900 cities from around the country and around the world for work. 669 00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:21,300 Now, I'm happy to just stay in my little Nook, actually. 670 00:41:21,300 --> 00:41:24,700 Find travel very jarring in an airplane, so I would like to 671 00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:28,000 return it airships. I want Zeppelin's and I want 672 00:41:28,300 --> 00:41:30,700 transoceanic liners. I think, I think they should 673 00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:33,400 have a return. And maybe if we had more time 674 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,100 and weren't, I know, so many people are, you can't miss a day 675 00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:39,600 or a couple days of work or it's really perilous. 676 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,500 Maybe in the future, people are better taken care of and could 677 00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:44,900 afford The time off to travel more slowly. 678 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,700 Also I love bike trips. I like traveling by bike a lot 679 00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:52,100 too and I wish I was more people had enough leisure time or 680 00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:56,500 availability to do so because there's a pride in that and I 681 00:41:56,508 --> 00:41:58,400 don't think flying really does it for you. 682 00:41:58,900 --> 00:41:59,600 Mmm. Yeah. 683 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,100 This is one of the things that happened when I was in Amsterdam 684 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,400 last year. Is that, you know, they have the 685 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:10,400 most, they have the densest bike trail Network in the world and I 686 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,900 just, you know, like woke up in my hotel. 687 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,300 I'll rented a bike out front of the hotel and biked to the ocean 688 00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:21,300 and back that day. Like and I think only maybe 689 00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:25,300 three or four times today actually Cross Road in this 690 00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:30,700 sense that you Crossroads all the time in the US. 691 00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:35,800 Like there is no real concept of a independent National Bike 692 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,200 Network here where it doesn't interface with the roads at all, 693 00:42:39,700 --> 00:42:42,900 where there are just like random bike only. 694 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,700 Lee Trails carving through people's fields in the middle of 695 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,300 the country and that's the bike Road. 696 00:42:50,500 --> 00:42:55,500 It's used primarily as a bike road and it has over passes 697 00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:57,100 over. The highways just, as any other 698 00:42:57,100 --> 00:43:00,400 Road system, would you just don't even have to interact with 699 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,500 cars if you don't want to, which is just so weird to me that you 700 00:43:04,500 --> 00:43:07,400 could travel halfway across the country without ever having 701 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,800 really touch to car based infrastructure. 702 00:43:11,500 --> 00:43:13,600 That's possible, I could exist right now. 703 00:43:13,900 --> 00:43:16,800 Like that could exist in the US and fifty years, or even in 10 704 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,000 years or even like in three years if we will actually wanted 705 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,900 it to there are some of it already. 706 00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:26,600 It's not on all the way across the country uniformly that I 707 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,200 just saw an article the other day at various states have it. 708 00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:32,100 There's also the Canal Trail that goes from like DC, pretty 709 00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:34,600 far west. I think they'll like Ohio or 710 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,900 something but there's a whole bunch of intersecting ones. 711 00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:38,400 Yeah. But I wish I wish it was like 712 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,900 that because maybe more people would do it. 713 00:43:40,900 --> 00:43:43,900 If so, So or maybe it would just be nerds like us. 714 00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:45,400 He like getting on bikes, I don't know. 715 00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:47,800 Yeah I don't know. I mean I really think like I 716 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,300 mean you go to the Netherlands and they're people of literally 717 00:43:50,300 --> 00:43:57,300 every age and ability that are in bikes and there are caveats 718 00:43:57,300 --> 00:43:59,700 to the system for people with disabilities that need 719 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:05,000 assistance. And there is, I don't know if I 720 00:44:05,008 --> 00:44:07,100 feel like it was just sort of like a conscious Choice, the 721 00:44:07,100 --> 00:44:11,700 country made about 50 years ago to shift to like bike, Focused 722 00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:15,300 infrastructure. And you know, if you had 723 00:44:15,700 --> 00:44:19,900 electric assist bike, there isn't really anything stopping 724 00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:24,300 you from using that as your primary mode of transportation 725 00:44:24,700 --> 00:44:28,900 permanently in that kind of a world that where the hills don't 726 00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:30,700 even really matter anymore that point. 727 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,000 Yeah, I do think, you know, there are many things I like 728 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,300 about having a car and I like the freedom and individualism of 729 00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:41,000 being able to just go somewhere on my own and not look at any 730 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:42,500 schools. Schedule or to have anyone's 731 00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:45,700 permission. I just go but also I think it's 732 00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:49,700 bad that every city is essentially built for cars and 733 00:44:49,700 --> 00:44:52,700 to not have a car, means you're stuck on public transit which 734 00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:55,300 often doesn't even go, where you need it to go Etc. 735 00:44:56,500 --> 00:45:00,400 And if anything is just like a giant waste of physical space 736 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,800 like 30 to 40 percent of cities. Surface area is car 737 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:10,500 infrastructure, something like that so you can build you can 738 00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:13,300 put a lot more. Houses and shops and parks, and 739 00:45:13,300 --> 00:45:17,500 all that kind of stuff in there without all of that wasted 740 00:45:17,500 --> 00:45:20,100 space. And also here in St. 741 00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:26,600 Paul to connect everything. Again, there is a neighborhood 742 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,500 called the Rondo neighborhood, which is historically black 743 00:45:30,500 --> 00:45:34,500 neighborhood made that way partially, because of racist 744 00:45:34,500 --> 00:45:38,900 housing policy 100 years ago, but then it was cut in half by 745 00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:43,000 building Interstate 94 that they Surly excavated a line right 746 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:44,400 through the middle of the neighborhood. 747 00:45:44,900 --> 00:45:49,100 Cut out a canyon built the highway in the canyon and now 748 00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:52,400 the neighborhood does doesn't exist anymore in any real way 749 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,900 that it did before in that same pattern sort of happened, all 750 00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:00,800 across the country where there were, there were people and 751 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,100 neighborhoods that were considered Expendable for 752 00:46:03,100 --> 00:46:08,400 infrastructure designed to use, you know, fossil fuels and and 753 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:13,000 quote stimulate the economy, you know, in the 50s You know, cars 754 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:19,400 were probably one of the main economic engines of the country, 755 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,200 you know, auto manufacturing. So you had the government 756 00:46:23,300 --> 00:46:26,700 helping that industry along by literally destroying people's 757 00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:29,600 neighborhoods. Yeah, I remember reading about 758 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,700 Jane Jacobs, fighting with Robert Moses in New York. 759 00:46:32,700 --> 00:46:34,000 Yeah. Same thing happening. 760 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,600 Yeah, I don't know that we're better off for having the 761 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,100 highways going through that, you can still tear him out. 762 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:42,800 Out. I mean like it's there's nothing 763 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,600 stopping us from tearing out the interstate highway system and 764 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,100 replacing it, with something better. 765 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,100 Yeah, if you want to go from Seattle to Spokane, you better 766 00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:56,600 get on your bike because that's that's the future Eco socialists 767 00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:01,100 want, right? Just kidding. 768 00:47:01,100 --> 00:47:04,500 I had to review a little bit. No, I people people should do 769 00:47:04,500 --> 00:47:05,900 that. It's pretty fun. 770 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,600 Well, we just start wrapping it up. 771 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:13,100 The fun as this has been are Where can people buy your book 772 00:47:13,100 --> 00:47:14,900 and working? They follow you personally. 773 00:47:15,900 --> 00:47:18,500 Yeah, I do. Most of the Social Media stuff 774 00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:23,200 on Twitter are called house. And I write primarily entirely 775 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:28,000 for the correspondent now, which is the correspondent.com. 776 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,900 And the book is available everywhere. 777 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,600 I've been trying to direct people to Bookshop dot org, 778 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,600 which is a network of independent bookstores, local 779 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:40,800 bookstores. So you can buy it through there 780 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,100 and it will be filled by your local bookstore. 781 00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:45,400 I think, in theory, that's how it's supposed to work. 782 00:47:45,700 --> 00:47:49,500 Cool links are in the show notes for all of that, thanks for 783 00:47:49,508 --> 00:47:51,200 being here. Yeah, no problem. 784 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,600 Thank you so much for having me. Wow, it's a lot of fun. 785 00:47:53,900 --> 00:47:55,600 If you like the show, please write interview US on. 786 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,500 ITunes up a podcast or Stitcher, tell your friends, and thank you 787 00:47:59,500 --> 00:48:00,500 so much for listening.