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You're listening to the 
reversing climate change, 

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podcast by the team at Nori. 
The carbon removal Marketplace. 

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This is a show about the 
innovators and entrepreneurs 

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developing solutions to climate 
change. 

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Hello and welcome to the 
reversing climate change podcast

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with Nori. 
I'm Ross. 

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Kenny and I'm one of the 
cofounders of nori and the 

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creative editor there and we are
a carbon removal Marketplace 

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based in Seattle. 
Did. 

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I already say that? 
Siobhan, did I say that twice? 

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No, this is The first time here,
alerting our listeners, that's 

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Siobhan Montoya, lavender from 
thanks a ton and Nori's mean 

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crew a shiv hey everybody. 
All right, apologies to our 

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wonderful guests sample to Kenan
who's calling in with us from 

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Finland today and he is the CEO 
of see fix and he's going to be 

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talking to us today about first 
generation and second 

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generation, direct are capture, 
which is a topic. 

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I want to sink my teeth into 
because I think I might Might be

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stuck in first gen and I might 
be stuck with all the 

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preconceived notions I have 
about first-gen Dak and what it 

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means and what it's going to 
look like. 

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And so I'm excited to hear about
what the future is going to look

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like, let's be forward facing 
here. 

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Before we start that Samba as I 
want to poke at that because you

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people even like that, I 
imagine. 

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If you're a quote-unquote, first
gen, doc supplier, you're 

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probably like simply pejorative,
right? 

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It's framing them as the old 
way. 

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The Old Guard, they're out of 
touch. 

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They're doing technology is an 
appropriately scaled. 

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So, is this even a model that 
you like using? 

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Or I guess if your 2nd gen you 
probably do you like it? 

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Well, you know, you know, was 
have to have some Edge, you 

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know, to you. 
People to people, you know, 

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about on the, on the fences. 
But it's not about that and 

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obviously the whole space and 
the whole industry. 

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So young and is moving so fast 
that people are not not like 

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ready for second generation at 
the generate. 

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If there are genuine accommodate
in a leapfrog, you you're going 

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to be shaking your head off my 
lawn, you know. 

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And we haven't really, really 
even you know, seeing what the 

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first chain can do so. 
So, you know, but you know, I 

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guess it's just a, it's a 
marketing term. 

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But but also, you know, it It's 
a real term in the sense that I 

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think second generation is often
when, you know you've come 

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across, I mean, you've solved 
and come, you know, kind of 

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gotten around some of the, you 
know, early stage and first 

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generation problems and and 
yeah, I think we have, I think 

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we have done in a lot of areas. 
So so I think it's Justified, 

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you know, it's I think our 
listeners are pretty familiar 

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with the term. 
Direct their capture but just 

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Briefly summarize. 
What does it mean to be a direct

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air capture method? 
What does that entail? 

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Well dark are capture means that
you are removing CO2 or 

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capturing and from ambient air 
which is you know, like we know 

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it's a kind of a Dye Loop dilute
solution are or mixed mixture 

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and and typically that is seen 
is just the removal component. 

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But I think You know, in the in 
the kind of, you know, second 

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generation, we're going to see 
that, you know, you can actually

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integrate storage with with the 
direct Heir capture component. 

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So that's one of the things that
that sets us apart from first 

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gen because it's actually comes 
with integrated storage. 

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Okay. 
Is that he has a necessary for 

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it to be second generations. 
And mostly about co-locating 

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removal and storage. 
Is that the main differentiator 

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between 1st and 2nd gen Wu? 
No, no. 

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I kind of touched it a little 
early, but the do now it's time.

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Yeah. 
Well, I guess no. 

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Well dark are capture, you know,
typically it's just produces a 

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gas of CO2, you know. 
And then, you know, you have to 

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a couple of, with some sort of a
storage solution like, you know,

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car fix or 44.0 one. 
Or something like that. 

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And and well, you know, here to,
you know, it's kind of coupled 

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with the storage solution. 
But basically, I don't want to 

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go like too deep into stew to 
the kind of stuff that is 

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proprietary because, you know, 
we haven't filed by PR yet, but 

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I can talk in a broad level and 
basically, you have a, you have 

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a, you know, a process and, you 
know, it's what we do is similar

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to, you know, Capture six, and 
have carbon, and a lot of 

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companies that build on 
chlor-alkali, you know, process 

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and splitting salt effectively. 
But this is not a, not an open 

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cycle process in the sense that 
we are not constantly taking in 

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new salt and, you know, 
splitting that. 

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And then, you know, let's say 
dump the alkaline component into

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the ocean or, or, you know, in 
the desert somewhere or and then

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the acid, you know, has to be 
neutralized somehow and or 

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disposed of So so this is 
basically we are, you know, 

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basically killing two birds with
one stone and and the same 

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process, you know, that is you 
know, used to capture the carbon

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dioxide from the air is used to 
dissolve magnesium out of rock, 

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you know? 
That is then combined, you know,

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in this in this process and and 
the product is is a see that but

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it's a crystalline magnesium 
carbonate. 

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And the biggest difference about
this is that the reaction is 

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instantaneous. 
So it happens, you know, at the 

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plant immediately and it's you 
know, very easy to verify and 

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record and also Trace Krista 
material plus, you know I think 

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the business model is a little 
more flexible in the sense that 

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we're not just because the plan 
is actually putting out a 

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physical product. 
So for a million tonne, plant 

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per annum say for our, for the 
sake of argument, you put about 

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out two million tons of 
magnesium carbonate, a year, 

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which have half of the masses is
carbon dioxide. 

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So, so, you know, you have a 
kind of a more diverse 

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Diversified business model, 
you're not just dependent on 

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selling CDR to the, you know, to
the quite a few buyers that are 

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actually in the game at the 
moment. 

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Like that we all know like 
Shopify and Microsoft, and 

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stripe, or Frontier and So let's
do this. 

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Wait, let me interrupt. 
Let's do a mental like a verbal 

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whiteboard. 
So if I was, if I was going to 

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be taught like what Doc is, what
its history has been and where 

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it's going. 
So like the dark, the first 

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column on the left here of our 
verbal whiteboard would be 

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director capture that the 
machines we've all seen, right? 

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We've all seen pictures of these
turbine like machines that are 

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sucking in air. 
We know they're going through 

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some sort of than it's just 
touching on a sorbent and then 

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it's being stored. 
I assume temporarily at Mozilla 

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Facilities prior to a more 
permanent storage which would be

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injection underground or 
perhaps, it's being utilized. 

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What's going into materials? 
So am I correct in thinking? 

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That's kind of the DAC as we all
know it like the original data 

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is saying we're going to suck it
out with these turbines. 

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We're going to store it and then
we're going to inject it or use 

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it. 
And so that deck and my mind is 

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still just getting off the 
ground. 

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Would you say that's? 
That's correct? 

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Like we're seeing you know, 
obviously climb works. 

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Is the OG in the industry and 
now we have carbon capture with 

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our new project bison coming 
out. 

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So is that all kind of the DAC 
as we know it? 

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And then what would separate 
second generation deck? 

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Is it this coupling is it the 
the idea of storing on fight 

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illustrate that a little bit for
us. 

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Well yeah, all those things. 
I'm trying to hold them all in 

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my head but the yeah, I guess, 
you know, like, I'm not going 

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going to names or specific 
processes, but but let's say, 

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when you talk about sorban, for 
example, in the storm in is a 

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big, big thing of the whole 
equation because, you know, you 

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know, you might have to make the
sorbent, you know, 

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synthetically, and it might take
a lot of energy and might 

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actually have a, let's say by 
available nitrogen in it, and if

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you were to Deploy. 
Something like that, a ticket on

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the scale, then you would 
inevitably bleach a massive 

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amount of nitrogen into the 
environment, for example, which 

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is already a big problem because
of eutrophication. 

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And then, I mean, based or bins,
for example, they are, you have 

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to make them synthetically and 
they are one of the most energy 

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intensive intensive chemicals 
out there today. 

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So I I think, you know, alkaline
and Earth alkali metals clearly.

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Are, you know, an interesting 
option there, but at the same 

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time, being what I like to call 
myself, a seasoned process 

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engineer or, you know, having 
been involved there for a long 

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time. 
I wouldn't typically want to 

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have a process with. 
Let's see if I can avoid it, you

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know, to have too much material.
Solid material handling, for 

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example, because solid material 
handling is something that a is 

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expensive requires a lot of 
investment takes a lot of 

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hardware and it's prone to 
failure. 

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It's typically you know, if you 
look at a biomass plant, for 

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example, then the Materials 
Handling is typically where you,

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where you At the hiccups and so 
so there are a lot of things you

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can do better. 
You know, I would like to say 

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that this process that we're 
doing doesn't have a single 

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moving part. 
I mean let alone the turbine or 

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the propeller at the top top of 
the structure and and of course 

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here, you know, you're talking 
about something like this. 

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You have two things, you have 
the core process and then you 

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have the concept that you build 
around that metal core process 

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and how you couple it, you know,
with the environment. 

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For example, and I think, you 
know, one of the challenges with

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first gen, they're here capture 
and you know, it's, you know, 

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yeah, challenges is that it's 
consuming a lot of resources, it

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takes a lot of energy, 
electricity formal energy. 

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It takes a lot of water and 
chemicals. 

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So and it doesn't is this strike
against a that people always 

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bring up those common argument 
against Afghans it Energy 

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intensive and so in terms of 
scale, so like if that's like 

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the kind of typical scale of 
energy consumption, what are you

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looking at for 2nd gen in terms 
of energy? 

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Come like just compare and 
doesn't have to be an exact you 

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know wattage but in terms of 
scale, but we do some things you

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know, we recycle the energy 
internally in this process so 

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you know like you know but but 
it still it does take a lot of 

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energy. 
I would say takes depending on 

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how much energy recycle 
internally. 

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Some the hydrogen that the the 
Electrolyzers put out, you would

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be looking at 14 to 22 hundred 
kilowatt hours per ton of CO2 

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removed, but that it does 
include the storage component. 

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So, you know, you save a lot in 
the, you know, compressing and 

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you know, pipelines and or you 
know ships or or cooling, you 

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know, whatever. 
Whatever you do down the line or

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injection, you might have to 
inject it, you know, against the

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substantially high pressure, you
know, much higher than the CO2 

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pressure itself. 
But what I wanted to say, you 

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know, the other thing That sets 
apart and is bit. 

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It's been kind of used as a club
against our back is that it's 

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kind of, you know, doesn't isn't
really tangible or something 

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that people can can see. 
And and, you know, it doesn't 

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really offer anything to the 
local community. 

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Let's say that if you build one 
of these massive plans and 

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you're going to pretty much 
going to have them in tens of 

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thousands of cities or Villages 
or the countryside. 

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So there should be something 
tangible and benefit that, you 

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know, you know that the local 
population or the society gets 

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from that I think you know that 
can have co-benefits and if you 

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look at look at our process, for
example, water is one thing 

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instead of using water. 
We actually condensing a lot of 

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water because we control the 
relative humidity and 

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temperature and the temperature 
differences between, you know, 

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different flows and the are And 
so then instead of drawing up, 

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we're actually condensing a lot 
of water, but the source of that

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water sea water, and we're 
vibrating some of that and then 

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condensing it back. 
So there's a small River coming 

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out of that plant. 
And actually, you know again if 

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you look at the million tonnes 
per annum plan, that would be 

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about 1,600 tons or cubic meters
of water every hour coming out 

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of that plant. 
So it's actually it's a small 

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stream that you can grow in a 
boat you know, basically It's 

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and that would be saltwater 
desal and eyes. 

222
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,600
And then leaving the facility in
a stream of fresh water. 

223
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,700
That could then be available for
use. 

224
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:45,600
Yeah, yeah, it's distilled 
water. 

225
00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:49,000
That is being evaporated from 
seawater and then condensed in 

226
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,700
the contactor. 
You know, once again, this is a 

227
00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:52,800
direct are capture plan. 
So it does have a contactor 

228
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,200
where you bring the store but 
into contact with the air, but 

229
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,200
they are that reaches. 
The contactor is very humid and 

230
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,600
the contactor is cooled as ice 
cold. 

231
00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:05,300
So, all that humidity condenses 
into the in In the in the 

232
00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:09,300
contactor and you're actually 
able to harvest that as as you 

233
00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:12,200
know, for for drinking or 
irrigation and the other thing, 

234
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,100
you know what I'm talking about.
The concept that we're building 

235
00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:20,100
around the actual technology is,
you know, obviously solar solar 

236
00:13:20,100 --> 00:13:23,400
is the kind of most scalable 
form of energy and kind of 

237
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,100
large-scale plans are based on 
solar or the initially, you can 

238
00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:29,000
do it anywhere where you have 
low-carbon electricity and 

239
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,900
there's not a shortage of it. 
Like in Finland, right? 

240
00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:34,400
Today we have - we priced energy
which is nice and it's been 

241
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,800
negatively price for a couple of
days now, so very nice but even 

242
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,800
during daytime hours, it's 
negatively priced. 

243
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:44,200
Yeah, and I last few days, it 
has been so, which is, you know,

244
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,700
nice because I paid a thousand, 
you know, per kilowatt hour or 

245
00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:51,000
something like that per 
megawatt-hour, last last winter 

246
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,900
and then last spring, a year 
ago, it was just just crazy, you

247
00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:58,700
know? 
So so yeah, what I was going to 

248
00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:01,100
say is that the other thing is 
this magnesium Innate. 

249
00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:03,900
So, if you're in the desert, 
let's say somewhere and these 

250
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:05,500
plans will be built in the 
desert. 

251
00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:08,700
So, there's not a lot of market 
nearby necessarily big cities, 

252
00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:10,700
where you want to haul this kind
of cheap ball product. 

253
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,400
So, amazing carbonate is 
actually, you know, when you 

254
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,200
take it out is like Little 
Rock's and you can, you can make

255
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,000
pellets out of it, for example, 
or you clink it for us. 

256
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,100
I heard on on LinkedIn, if you 
can, there are listeners can 

257
00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:26,300
hear. 
Yeah, it doesn't make sure have 

258
00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:29,700
a satisfying sound. 
It does have this kind of a 

259
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,900
glass-like sound or, or surround
sound like a surround know. 

260
00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:37,400
My, my laptop is all covered 
with the carbonate here. 

261
00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:39,900
I don't hear anything, so you 
just got a dirty for no reason. 

262
00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:42,200
Yeah. 
Sorry I'll follow. 

263
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:44,700
I'll record it for, you know, 
how did you post? 

264
00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:48,800
Yeah, but I'm only assuming 
singing Bowl here for us. 

265
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,200
Yeah, I'm actually, yeah, it's 
once it's once, it's like, 

266
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,500
really crystallized. 
It's it is like, you know, kind 

267
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:59,000
of a solid structure and And, 
you know, you that's when it 

268
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:00,400
starts to have the sound like 
that. 

269
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,300
It's interesting. 
Talk to me about building with 

270
00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:05,400
it, not to get ahead. 
But so we have. 

271
00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:07,700
We're talking about co-benefits 
2nd gen DAC. 

272
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,100
We have potential of listen up 
Californian, where water is 

273
00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:13,100
scarce and salt water is 
abundant. 

274
00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:16,100
We have the potential of you 
know, having this stream of 

275
00:15:16,108 --> 00:15:19,400
fresh water coming out of the 
plant, you mentioned on your 

276
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,400
website. 
That this is something that you 

277
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,200
can build with. 
This is a material that could be

278
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,100
used as a building additive. 
Yeah, you can press it into 

279
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:29,200
bricks. 
As it is and it doesn't mean a 

280
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,900
binder and it has a hardness 
that's comparable to Limestone. 

281
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,600
So, on a mass scale, is 324. 
So it's limestone is a, you 

282
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,100
know, if you visit European 
cities then and most of the old 

283
00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:42,100
cities are built out of 
limestone is a very good 

284
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,800
material. 
I mean it's easy to carve and 

285
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,600
and cut em, you know, sighs, but
this is different, you know, you

286
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,300
have the same hardness, it's 
bright white, you know, so if 

287
00:15:52,500 --> 00:15:54,900
you build something out of that 
in a high, you know, in the 

288
00:15:54,900 --> 00:15:59,400
desert area, then you know, it's
kind of, you know, No good 

289
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:04,800
firmly because it reflects a lot
of solar energy back and yeah 

290
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,400
you can use it in a lot of ways 
you can use to build houses or 

291
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,200
roads and or coral reefs. 
You know, you don't just want to

292
00:16:11,208 --> 00:16:12,900
dump it in the ocean. 
You want to make bricks out of 

293
00:16:12,900 --> 00:16:16,000
it and then then dump a pile of 
bricks on which the corals can 

294
00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:17,400
can, you know, start building 
up. 

295
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,300
So, but it's a question of 
whether there's a market or not 

296
00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:24,900
and it's a cheap bulk product. 
And I have to go back a little 

297
00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:27,600
bit because I was talking about 
the more diverse business model,

298
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,700
you know? 
Oh, that we have and and you 

299
00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:34,100
know instead of selling Justice,
Just the cork or the CO2 removal

300
00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:39,000
certificate to the software 
companies and internet. 

301
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:44,800
You know, companies And others 
we wouldn't. 

302
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,800
So, we're actually, it is more 
diverse. 

303
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,000
You can actually sell it as 
carbon - like I used to be in 

304
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,200
biochar at the car, both X. 
And you know, when we were 

305
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,400
selling biochar, typically, you 
would sell the cork separately 

306
00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,800
from the physical product and, 
and then you would tell the 

307
00:16:59,808 --> 00:17:02,700
buyer of the carbon that they 
cannot make any carbon 

308
00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:06,200
negativity claims or, you know, 
that this is, you know, reduces 

309
00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:08,500
using double counting. 
Yeah, exactly. 

310
00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:12,500
So but we Some clients that 
wanted to, you know, do kind of 

311
00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:14,900
by the, by the carbon negative 
product. 

312
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:17,400
So that we would stay up all the
certificates into the backs. 

313
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,599
You know, figuratively speaking 
and magnesium carbonate is 

314
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,200
similar to that sort of thing. 
It doesn't, you know, quite how 

315
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,900
is it? 
It's not as intense as yhr, you 

316
00:17:26,908 --> 00:17:30,700
know, with free. 
You know, kg per kg of CO2 

317
00:17:30,700 --> 00:17:33,700
equivalent. 
I mean 1 kg biochar, had 

318
00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:36,700
frequent kg CO2 equivalent. 
So when using carbonate only has

319
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:43,000
about fifty three percent CO2 
but it's - and you know, we 

320
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,500
don't need to sell the cork. 
We can just sell it as a carbon 

321
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:50,400
- filler or a carbon - you know,
construction material fillers 

322
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,900
are used in a lot of different 
Industrial Products and 

323
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,300
limestone is typically, you 
know, and silica and and carbon 

324
00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:00,800
black and things like that are, 
you know, typically filters of. 

325
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,300
So, the point is that, you know,
companies are able to make 

326
00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:09,300
carbon negative or carbon 
neutral product, you know, once 

327
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:13,700
they kind of Recycle as much as 
possible and all their energy is

328
00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:17,400
renewable, but they're still a 
little bit of carbon footprint 

329
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,500
left. 
The only thing you can do is you

330
00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:22,500
can use a carbon negative 
component, to kind of, you know,

331
00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:27,400
offset the carbon footprint and 
we can we can do that. 

332
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,400
So it's not just the CDR Market,
it's also the industrial product

333
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,700
market and the kind of filler 
use. 

334
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:37,800
So it's more diver questions 
about Raza. 

335
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:38,900
Looks like you want to get one 
in. 

336
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:42,600
Mostly just want to tell you to 
stay in your lane if doc starts 

337
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,500
having co-benefits what's going 
to happen to everyone else, man?

338
00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:49,200
Can you just can you just back 
off and just tap what I was 

339
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,000
gonna say? 
I was gonna say, how could you 

340
00:18:51,008 --> 00:18:54,100
make Dak Unstoppable. 
Give it co-benefits. 

341
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,200
Yeah. 
No it has to be and for people 

342
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,100
to buy into it and you know, you
know, not have the not in my 

343
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:05,100
backyard attitude, then it's got
to have, you know, something 

344
00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:09,700
good and and you know, this 
concept, you know, it's solar 

345
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:11,700
powered. 
Or so around the plant which is 

346
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:14,500
by the Sea on the desert. 
You're going to have a big array

347
00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:17,800
of solar panels, probably like 
500 hectares of them, you know, 

348
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:21,200
several hundreds of Acres 
Thousand Acres, at least, at 

349
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,500
least. 
So you're going to actually 

350
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:26,500
going to be able to grow, grow 
food, and stuff under under the 

351
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:28,900
panel's because it just provides
a little bit of shade. 

352
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,700
These are sodium tellarite 
panels. 

353
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:34,200
So basically thin film and most 
of the light gets through. 

354
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:39,200
So instead of you know making 
the land, you know, useless you 

355
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,300
actually You know, make a 
narrable in a way and then, you 

356
00:19:42,300 --> 00:19:45,200
know, the last thing is that, 
you know, you're going to build 

357
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,600
these plants carbon- from from 
scratch. 

358
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:52,300
So once again, you know, by 
using carbon - materials like 

359
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:56,700
biochar, and if we go into the 
dark side you know the contactor

360
00:19:56,700 --> 00:20:00,500
once again, you know, when you 
when you moving massive amounts 

361
00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:05,500
of are you want to have passive,
you know, systems or or you know

362
00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:10,200
low velocities and laminar 
laminar flows which Is that, you

363
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,100
know, there's no turbulence. 
So, so in effect, you know, you 

364
00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:19,200
want to have an easy breathing 
system or like, it's like 

365
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,400
sucking when you trying to 
breathe through a straw, you 

366
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,000
know, you're changing the same 
amount of air but you're doing a

367
00:20:24,008 --> 00:20:27,200
lot of work because you know, 
there's a small opening so you 

368
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,800
have to make all the passages 
big so that you know, the flow 

369
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:36,800
Logan, you know, Floyd had 
easily and and that means that 

370
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,100
they're going to be big, you 
know, that's the downside of it.

371
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:43,700
So these structures are going to
be huge and just to put it into 

372
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:47,600
perspective, a one Megaton plant
is going to have a diameter of 

373
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,400
630 meters and the circumference
of two kilometers. 

374
00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:56,800
And you know the contactor, you 
know, kind of frontal area where

375
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,800
the air flows into the 
contactor. 

376
00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:04,900
The the dimensions are ready to 
Kilometers by 110 meters. 

377
00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:08,300
So it's a massive structure and 
it, you know, you're going to 

378
00:21:08,308 --> 00:21:12,100
have plates on which your 
contact solution your assortment

379
00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:15,400
is flowing and then the air is 
Flowing between those plates and

380
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,000
you're hoping that is going to 
react with the Goodyear sorban. 

381
00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:21,700
So you know, these are Mega 
structures and it means that 

382
00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:24,400
there's going to be about 
400,000 tons of material 

383
00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:27,800
recycled plastic and biochar 
needed, you know, to make those 

384
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,400
contactor plates. 
But the good thing is that 

385
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,100
you're already carbon - when you
start and you can probably sell 

386
00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:35,700
Some some, you know, 
certificates already when you're

387
00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:41,700
when you're building it. 
So so you know once again you 

388
00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:44,600
got it all figured out, I 
thought the future of director 

389
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,000
capture was going to be modular.
This is the future that somehow 

390
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,000
I had internalized at some point
and the fact that there's going 

391
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,300
to be even more colossal 
structures built then previously

392
00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:59,300
is potentially unexpected to 
listeners, as well as to myself.

393
00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:02,500
Is that, is that still on the 
table or just the economy of 

394
00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:05,200
scale? 
Work way better than the modular

395
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,000
approach approach. 
I know there's intersections 

396
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,100
between these two paradigms, but
I think, you know what I'm 

397
00:22:10,108 --> 00:22:11,300
getting at. 
Yeah. 

398
00:22:11,300 --> 00:22:13,200
I think it's going to be 
modular, but it's still going to

399
00:22:13,208 --> 00:22:16,200
be huge. 
Yeah, there you go. 

400
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,900
You didn't lots of other words? 
Yeah. 

401
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,600
I mean, you know, here to I'm 
thinking about what is the kind 

402
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,000
of trajectory or how do we go 
from you know, being in a lab 

403
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,000
making a few handfuls of that 
product, you know, to making, 

404
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,100
you know, two million tons of it
a year And, and it goes up, you 

405
00:22:35,108 --> 00:22:36,900
know, in steps. 
First, you doing something that 

406
00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:40,200
does a kilogram an hour, then 
it's a ton per day and then 

407
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,000
probably looking at 2,000 tons a
year and then you go to module, 

408
00:22:44,100 --> 00:22:47,200
which might be like 10,000 tons 
a year and then you prove out 

409
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,500
the module and then if that 
module is already big enough 

410
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:53,500
and, you know, your your kind of
reaping, some of the economies 

411
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:57,500
of scale with that, then you 
know, you can just stack them or

412
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:04,200
or you know, Yeah. 
Stack them until Richard this 

413
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,500
service sound? 
You know when you when you frame

414
00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:09,000
it that way kind of in this year
by year process, it sounds 

415
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,800
achievable. 
But you know when you describe 

416
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,600
this massive facility we're 
going to have solar panels and 

417
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,400
crops growing under them and 
flow outflows of fresh water. 

418
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,200
It sounds very utopian. 
But what are what are the big 

419
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,900
hurdles you're already thinking?
They're going to come up against

420
00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:27,700
is it just policy-based? 
Is it just acceptance and 

421
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:30,600
understanding of the process? 
Is what are the big hurdles? 

422
00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:35,500
Well, I try to work around all 
the hurdles like, you know, as 

423
00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:38,100
far as possible. 
And you know, one of them 

424
00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:40,300
getting around is like, you 
know, the storage component. 

425
00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:43,900
And, you know, or let's say that
if you have a hydrochloric acid 

426
00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:46,900
disposal problem, then what the 
hurdles just like, okay, well, 

427
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,800
Like you're talking about 
disposing, waste and waste, 

428
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,100
sounds bad to people, and that 
that normally gets them up on 

429
00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:56,900
the barricades and, you know, 
so, it's better if you can make 

430
00:23:56,900 --> 00:24:00,200
a product of some sort and 
nobody has anything about 

431
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,500
against making products, 
especially if they're carbon - 

432
00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:05,700
and, you know, just cleanable 
and all that. 

433
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,500
So sorry, I was lost my train of
thought there. 

434
00:24:12,100 --> 00:24:13,700
It's okay. 
So you're talking about building

435
00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:16,400
around the hurdles and making. 
Yeah, it's something that people

436
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,400
do want it sounds so 
geographically like there's 

437
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:26,800
going to be a big bottle. 
A and what do you think would 

438
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,900
be? 
I mean so I used to work in 

439
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:34,600
major utility developments for 
Caltrans for PG&E and a lot of 

440
00:24:34,608 --> 00:24:38,500
these, you know facilities we 
build take a lot of land and I 

441
00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:40,500
was always out there doing the 
environmental component, right? 

442
00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:43,400
And so If you want to build a 
new transmission line or 

443
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,500
whatnot, you're taking up new 
space and on the one hand you're

444
00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:48,900
like, oh this is in the Southern
California desert, there's 

445
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:51,900
nothing there. 
Obviously we know that not to be

446
00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:54,400
entirely the case that there's 
there's quite a bit there. 

447
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,200
And so what what would the 
impact be a doing this? 

448
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,200
Truly at scale? 
Are there are there enough 

449
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,900
sufficient sighting locations 
within desert? 

450
00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:06,500
Ecosystems that also are I 
assume they have to be somewhat 

451
00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:10,000
adjacent to the actual C so that
they can have not too far of 

452
00:25:10,008 --> 00:25:12,400
transmission of salt water. 
Or am I incorrect in assuming 

453
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,300
that? 
Well, I'm probably in most 

454
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:18,900
cases, you do have rock salt 
formations and that sort of 

455
00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:22,300
thing, salt domes, we were to. 
So, you could be tapping into 

456
00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:23,400
those. 
But then again, if you want to 

457
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,000
do ocean alkalinity and has been
done. 

458
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,100
Yeah, if you'd have to be by the
Sea, you know, one, wait a 

459
00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:32,300
minute, you be doing DAC and 
you'd have apples of freshwater 

460
00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:34,400
and you be doing ocean, 
alkalinity enhancement. 

461
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,300
No, I mean, sorry. 
I just if you ask that, you 

462
00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:42,100
know, wouldn't wouldn't want if 
they used to use solve the need 

463
00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:43,300
to proximity. 
Ocean. 

464
00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:45,500
But we don't need proximity to 
those who because of the salt 

465
00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:48,000
because we don't because it's a 
closed loop. 

466
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,100
So we're using the same salt 
over and over again. 

467
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,600
We're breaking it down and then 
the, you know, starting all over

468
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,500
again. 
But but the and yeah, if you're 

469
00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:00,900
in the desert and your solar 
powered, then you need to be by 

470
00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:04,100
the Sea because of the cooling 
and and the fresh water, you 

471
00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:07,500
know, the water management or 
the or the water balance. 

472
00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:11,100
But if you're in a cooler 
climate then, then basically 

473
00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:12,900
what you really need is a 
cooling source. 

474
00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:14,800
And you need to be able to 
create a large enough 

475
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,200
temperature difference in your 
system, so that you actually get

476
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:22,000
condensation. 
So, so and it doesn't always 

477
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,800
have to be a water producing 
system. 

478
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,700
We could be as long as it 
doesn't dry up, but but, you 

479
00:26:26,708 --> 00:26:28,400
know, making one of these plants
acceptable. 

480
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,900
You know, you kind of come up 
got to have the local social 

481
00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:35,600
benefits or the benefits for the
local Uncle people and, and 

482
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,000
yeah, I think, you know, it 
sounds utopian, but I prefer 

483
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,500
utopian or dystopian and You 
know, I think I just see a lot 

484
00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:48,400
of things, you know, come 
together and we just have to put

485
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,500
the first one together, so I 
think people will be inspired 

486
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:54,100
and they want to replicate that 
at going to scale. 

487
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:57,300
You know, I think it's easier. 
You know, in this case you only 

488
00:26:57,300 --> 00:27:01,500
need 1,000 plants, you know that
are 630 meters in diameter, plus

489
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:04,000
the solar arrays, you know, 
around that. 

490
00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:10,500
So it's not, you know, space or 
land that is is constricting the

491
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:13,600
thing. 
I think it's more You know, when

492
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,300
you have more project like with 
biochar, you would have to build

493
00:27:16,300 --> 00:27:19,200
a hundred thousand plants, 
probably to reach the Giga, ton 

494
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,300
capacity. 
So how are you going to finance 

495
00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:25,900
all the bows and the kind of 
time and energy that goes into 

496
00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:28,600
those projects just developing 
those projects has is enormous. 

497
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:33,300
So I think million tons in, you 
know, ten years down the line is

498
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:37,100
going to be your module and then
then, you know, some, some 

499
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:41,400
places you might see, you know, 
several million tons in a plant.

500
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,900
If you have a good location, And
there's plenty of coastal 

501
00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:48,300
deserts in the world and where 
the land is cheap. 

502
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,700
There's very little people. 
If there are people, then they 

503
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:54,500
are kind of stricken by drought 
and climate change and they 

504
00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:58,100
need, you know, a break 
basically have. 

505
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:00,800
So, so this, you know, plan 
could offer one. 

506
00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:04,300
It seems like we've talked about
this in previous show, but it 

507
00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:08,900
seems like the Arabian 
Peninsula. 

508
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:11,600
Probably a prime candidate for 
something like this. 

509
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,700
There's water, they're going to 
lose out on oil and gas pretty 

510
00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:18,000
soon or at some point they will.
This might be one of those 

511
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,100
replacement industries that 
could could be quite beneficial 

512
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,200
maybe turn someone who might 
otherwise dig their heels into 

513
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,800
an ally of the future of carbon 
removal. 

514
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,600
Yeah. 
There's like you know, in South 

515
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,000
America that's Atacama and then 
you have been immediately, maybe

516
00:28:34,100 --> 00:28:38,100
me being Coastal desert, you 
have, you know, all the Algeria 

517
00:28:38,100 --> 00:28:42,000
and Morocco, ziz, really dry. 
And the Mediterranean is really 

518
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:48,200
dry all over and Australia, 
India and Arabian. 

519
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,100
Peninsula - color is, you know, 
Norma solar potential, and 

520
00:28:51,108 --> 00:28:54,600
you've seen some, we've seen 
some really cheap solar power 

521
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,500
come from that region. 
You know, it's like, Like some 

522
00:28:57,500 --> 00:29:02,700
of the contracts are point nine 
cents per kilowatt hour and 44 

523
00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:06,800
news, new large-scale solar. 
Have you been following the news

524
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,000
about Fusion? 
That's come out in the last 

525
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:14,000
month or so I've been keeping an
active while infusion for for 20

526
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,200
years and I'm trying all the 
time though. 

527
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,600
Well, yeah, you know, I'd love 
it, you know, just bring it and,

528
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:24,500
you know, we'll put it to use 
and I doubt it's going to be 

529
00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:29,500
cheap initially, you know, but 
But yeah, I welcome it. 

530
00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:34,300
You know I love to see fusion 
and I would do Fusion are being 

531
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:36,700
infusion myself. 
If I, you know, wasn't doing 

532
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:42,200
this how would Fusion change the
location of attack 2.0 or what 

533
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,500
it impacted at all? 
Well, it just means that you 

534
00:29:45,508 --> 00:29:50,400
don't, you're not kind of tied 
to a high solar potential areas 

535
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,600
so you could basically build it 
anywhere in the cooler or darker

536
00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:00,400
climate like you know, in the 
nordics. and, Print, just 

537
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,100
curiously. 
I'm somebody who hasn't been 

538
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:05,400
following the fusion discussion.
What's the footprint? 

539
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,300
Fusion, power plants? 
Yeah, I think they're comparable

540
00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:11,700
to deficient plants at this 
point. 

541
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:18,400
I mean, the but yeah, I have, I 
know, of a few different, you 

542
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,700
know, new Fusion processes, but 
but you know, I'm not going to 

543
00:30:22,708 --> 00:30:25,100
be able to comment on on, you 
know what. 

544
00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:30,100
But yeah, I think one of the 
Arguments for nuclear is that, 

545
00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:33,200
you know, it's takes it has a 
small footprint. 

546
00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:37,600
We're going to do a shot on this
at some point it should have 

547
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,700
there's just too much stuff 
happening and I seen the I'm 

548
00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:43,100
already seeing the gears turning
both inside at nor and I seen it

549
00:30:43,100 --> 00:30:47,500
all swear to of linking up. 
You know, high energy intensity 

550
00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:51,700
carbon removal that is currently
not LCA worthy. 

551
00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:56,100
But if it's abundant and cheap 
clean energy like the fusion and

552
00:30:56,100 --> 00:31:00,400
maybe that changes the equation 
on some of these things, may be 

553
00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:03,600
a learning curve it and we just 
use it all. 

554
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,600
All up doing silly things. 
That's also possible. 

555
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,100
Yeah, no. 
I've been playing with those 

556
00:31:09,100 --> 00:31:11,900
thoughts, for a long time, than 
what if we had, you know, 

557
00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:15,200
abundant cheap clean energy, you
know, that, you wouldn't have to

558
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,900
feel bad about using. 
And you could just, you know, it

559
00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:22,200
wouldn't be a limitation, you 
know, that he'll I think someone

560
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,900
who's at the top of their field 
like this, having them on. 

561
00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:27,900
And then ask them the equivalent
of like being Stoned on your 

562
00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:30,500
freshman dorm couch. 
Be like what? 

563
00:31:30,500 --> 00:31:36,400
If abundant energy Costner 
Thing, we could save the world. 

564
00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:40,800
Like I love that guy. /. 
Hate it. 

565
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,900
But it's apparently, what I did 
she wanna know is there's 

566
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,200
nothing wrong with, you know, 
speculating and playing playing 

567
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,600
with thoughts, you know, 
sometimes, you know, you know, 

568
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,100
you might see things. 
No, I agree. 

569
00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:57,500
I think it's good to kind of 
have your brain into a rubber 

570
00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:01,100
band that goes out into that 
expansive potential reality as 

571
00:32:01,100 --> 00:32:03,600
long as you know coming back at 
like okay well now that I that I

572
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:05,800
Played with that idea, what's 
the reality of it, you know? 

573
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,300
But I do think that, you know, 
in general in climate Solutions 

574
00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:14,400
and carbon mobile, specifically,
I like the idea of playing with 

575
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,500
what's possible. 
I think, you know, Tito 

576
00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:19,100
Jankowski of are minors, talks 
about that a lot about, like, 

577
00:32:19,100 --> 00:32:23,200
just imagine what could be 
possible and I think that is a 

578
00:32:23,208 --> 00:32:27,400
positive exercise. 
Just just playing in general, I 

579
00:32:27,408 --> 00:32:28,700
think it'd be kind of help. 
Maybe I'm this is 

580
00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:32,000
self-aggrandizing cuz we like 
play a lot of annoying me lab 

581
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,200
and we play, we bring Murmuring.
We bring kind of some Delight 

582
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,000
into the into the industry and 
so maybe it's the 

583
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,300
self-aggrandizing, but I do 
think there's a role for 

584
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:45,800
bringing in kind of this 
imagining what it could be and 

585
00:32:45,900 --> 00:32:48,000
and poking fun at ourselves. 
So they can we poke fun at 

586
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,000
ourselves, we can sometimes find
the true holes and in our ideas.

587
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:57,100
You know, I think Engineers 
typically they are kind of shy, 

588
00:32:57,100 --> 00:33:00,700
you know, when it comes to being
very creative or, you know, 

589
00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:04,000
imagining things, they don't, 
you know, typically then, The, 

590
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,700
you know, imagination. 
You know, people, they, you 

591
00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:09,400
know, hard math and art physics 
and, you know, that sort of 

592
00:33:09,408 --> 00:33:12,500
stuff. 
And I, you know, personally, I 

593
00:33:12,500 --> 00:33:16,600
think of myself more as a, well,
kind of an artist. 

594
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,700
I do play the guitar but but, 
you know, not so much an 

595
00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:22,400
engineer because I really need 
to be inspired and I need to be 

596
00:33:22,408 --> 00:33:25,200
in the right kind of mood and 
and mode, you know, to be able 

597
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,600
to do something and give my give
my best. 

598
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:30,000
And I have a lot of engineering 
friends that, you know, they 

599
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,500
just crunch, you know, crunch 
away. 

600
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,700
And, you know, there's Like, 
they can go from one task to the

601
00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:37,600
next one. 
And would, you know, one minute 

602
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,900
orientation period in between, 
and I'm like, you know, well 

603
00:33:41,900 --> 00:33:44,600
it's like, could you be farther?
My disposition? 

604
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,500
Probably not. 
I think we've talked about this 

605
00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:49,000
on the podcast. 
There was I often like going 

606
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,500
into brainstorming meetings or 
pitch meetings but the worst 

607
00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:54,000
idea possible and being the 
person to throw out the 

608
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,200
crappiest idea because then that
loosens up other people to throw

609
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,200
out the like half-baked idea or 
quarter baked idea and 

610
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,900
oftentimes the best stuff comes 
out at someone who's like Like 

611
00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:06,300
this is terrible, but what about
this? 

612
00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:09,800
And you're like that. 
Plus this boom, we just made 

613
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,699
something that was great out of 
nothing because people felt 

614
00:34:12,699 --> 00:34:15,600
comfortable sharing an idea that
was not really that polished. 

615
00:34:16,100 --> 00:34:18,800
So, yeah, I think creativity can
do a lot but then again, I'm 

616
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,000
also biased because I want job 
security but it's true, I think.

617
00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:26,400
Absolutely. 
And you know, I mean, there's 

618
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,199
that there's a risk of, you 
know, getting you know, label as

619
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,500
the village, not her, you know, 
more or less. 

620
00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:35,199
But I, you know I don't shown 
that. at, you know, I'm always, 

621
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:38,699
you know, if there's a, you 
know, I like to play with 

622
00:34:38,699 --> 00:34:41,500
thoughts, you know, and it's, 
you know, easy to measure 

623
00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:46,199
yourself and your friends, you 
know, go down these imaginary 

624
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:49,199
imaginary paths, you have 
anything like that, right now, 

625
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:52,900
something that is really not 
ready for prime time, but it's 

626
00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:59,300
something that you're thinking a
lot about Carbon removal related

627
00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:03,500
or you know, only need to put 
that parameter on it. 

628
00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:06,200
Well, you just so what do you? 
What do you want to share you 

629
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,500
clearly have something ready. 
My bees did really well. 

630
00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:12,700
Last winter and the honey honey 
Harvest is looking for a good, 

631
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,500
and I'm going to get my cows 
back in a little bit. 

632
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,000
They've been away for the winter
because I was in California for 

633
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,500
months, and so it's been, you 
know, a few months away from 

634
00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:25,400
them now and I love Of them 
dearly. 

635
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,000
So it's going to be nice to get 
them back here and you're a 

636
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,300
farmer to on you, do all these 
things. 

637
00:35:31,300 --> 00:35:34,700
And then you also Farm. 
Well, farming is a source of 

638
00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:38,400
creativity and kind of 
recreation and, you know, so 

639
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,800
it's a kind of a, you know, you 
got to have a Physical exercise 

640
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,300
and you got to have, you know 
you know I think I do shooting 

641
00:35:46,300 --> 00:35:49,700
to I'm not a gun enthusiast, but
I do it for a reason because I 

642
00:35:49,707 --> 00:35:54,300
get kind of a feeling of success
and achievement, you know, 

643
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,800
because in my line of work, 
sometimes you have to work with 

644
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,000
10 to 20 years before you 
actually get anywhere. 

645
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,900
And you know, look at me, carbon
will is the thing now but it 

646
00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:06,300
wasn't a thing 20 years ago. 
And so you know sometimes you 

647
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:09,100
know, when you when you heat a 
steel Target here a nice clean 

648
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,300
back and my brain is kind of 
wire. 

649
00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:15,600
No, because I used to play, you 
know, I was in the 80s and 

650
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:19,500
within a lot of video games, so 
it caused my brain to be wired 

651
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:23,700
so that I need that, you know, 
fairly rapid feedback. 

652
00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:26,800
And that gives me I figured out 
why does this feel so good. 

653
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,700
And you know, because it's like 
playing playing a game instant 

654
00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:36,200
feedback and isn't predication. 
So farming to, you know, you get

655
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,300
you get to see things and you 
kind of connect to the rhythm of

656
00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:43,600
the nature and and you know, 
it's nice and then you get 

657
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,900
feelings of success and you kind
of connected, and it's also good

658
00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:51,700
for kind of, you know, Quieting 
down cooling off a little bit, 

659
00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:54,400
sometimes too. 
Is that how you got into bio 

660
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,200
charted? 
The farming go to bio charted 

661
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,600
biochar. 
Lead you to farming. 

662
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,800
Tell us a little bit about your 
backstory and how you went from 

663
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,900
somewhere, there's farming in 
there but then there was the 

664
00:37:03,908 --> 00:37:07,500
success with Carlo effects and 
then why you chose to quit 

665
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:13,800
biochar basically and pivot into
death A lot of questions I was 

666
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,300
in, wasn't the first time I got 
involved with charcoal was in 

667
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:21,000
1996 or even a few years before.
That's when I built. 

668
00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:23,800
We were the lot one of the 
largest producers of charcoal in

669
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,000
Finland that year when I was in 
high school in 1990. 1996. 

670
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,000
Yeah, I'm 1998. 
I joined a join the Army so I 

671
00:37:31,008 --> 00:37:35,800
was out of that for for some 
time, but then I came back and I

672
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,200
started working on gasification 
well from from, you know, better

673
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,900
part of 2000 from 2001 until 
2004. 

674
00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:46,700
Yeah. 
Even on from 99 to 2009 more or 

675
00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:49,900
less, and then I got into 
pyrolysis, and we came up with 

676
00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:54,400
the idea of Bio coal which is 
kind of an established terms a 

677
00:37:54,408 --> 00:37:57,100
day, but it was our trademark. 
Back then. 

678
00:37:57,100 --> 00:38:00,100
And you know, the idea was that,
you know, you take biomass and 

679
00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:03,200
you convert it into kind of a 
drop-in fuel for coal-fired 

680
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,900
power plants and, you know, that
way, you know, allow to reduce 

681
00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:12,500
emissions but that was too windy
and there was the financial 

682
00:38:12,500 --> 00:38:15,200
crisis. 
And, you know, it was heavily 

683
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,000
kind of involved with all these 
energy schemes which, you know, 

684
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,500
you don't really want to be, you
want to be an arm's length from,

685
00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:27,000
you know, if you want to, you 
know, build something and so We 

686
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,100
already knew how to build make 
biochar then and we had the same

687
00:38:30,100 --> 00:38:31,800
machine. 
We used a carp effects, we build

688
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,500
in 2009 and we ever since the 
fall process, like what are we 

689
00:38:35,508 --> 00:38:38,500
going to do with biochar? 
So that we could make money or 

690
00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:40,700
have a business around? 
It was the business model going 

691
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:46,400
to look like And in 2015 2016 we
you know I had some ideas that 

692
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,100
were refined and I saw a few 
openings like growing media, you

693
00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:52,200
know, we're going to go we're 
going to go after pearlite. 

694
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:57,600
And so then we took the old 
machine and and you know, break 

695
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,100
it up again and it kind of you 
know refurbished it a little bit

696
00:39:00,100 --> 00:39:06,300
and then we started carbon facts
and that was 2016 and we did 

697
00:39:06,300 --> 00:39:08,700
pretty good. 
You know, we got the we did the,

698
00:39:08,700 --> 00:39:12,200
you know, first mythology for 
biochar with Buddha and We 

699
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,900
brought in a lot of, you know, 
biochar companies to put on time

700
00:39:17,100 --> 00:39:21,400
and, you know, we, we also the 
market leaders in Sweden. 

701
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,900
Pretty much in Europe in biochar
and for a long time we let the 

702
00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:29,400
the CDR a great job or LED or 
kind of you know we're in the in

703
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,400
the top three or top five still 
four thousand times you know 

704
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,900
delivered CDR. 
You know today you do got sick 

705
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:41,600
of success there. 
Well no actually if you know 

706
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,600
It's a tragic story. 
I didn't leave voluntarily. 

707
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:49,500
I will my founding partner of 
threw me out because we had he 

708
00:39:49,500 --> 00:39:51,200
now owned like half of the 
company. 

709
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,500
I was down to 27 or something 
like that, and it's a long 

710
00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:56,500
story. 
I was going to bring in a couple

711
00:39:56,500 --> 00:40:01,600
of climate investors, you know, 
in of 21 but but there was, you 

712
00:40:01,607 --> 00:40:05,900
know, a late-night ideal and 
Ultimately those guys were out 

713
00:40:05,900 --> 00:40:11,100
and if you had to go to other 
guys were in, and by months, six

714
00:40:11,100 --> 00:40:13,200
months down the line, I'm, 
they're asking me why I'm not 

715
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,000
stealing any machines. 
I'm like, you know, why are you 

716
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,700
asking me why we're not selling 
machines? 

717
00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:18,700
We're not supposed to sell the 
machines where we're developing 

718
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:22,600
CDR projects and, you know, that
is the way to scale, but I Char 

719
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:27,600
and pyrolysis and CDR in 
particular, and but they had not

720
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,600
bought into that plan. 
You know, that we had, you know,

721
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:35,800
created with with the investors 
that I wanted to have. and I'm 

722
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,400
basically, you know, it just 
went downhill from there, you 

723
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,300
know, there was all kinds of and
and in the end in the end of 

724
00:40:42,308 --> 00:40:45,800
last summer, we had a terrible 
trouble meeting, you know, 

725
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,000
probably the, you know, we 
didn't really, you know, these 

726
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,500
guys were, you know, I didn't 
really get to know them, it came

727
00:40:52,500 --> 00:40:58,000
through the, the other guy, but 
the in the end, you know, they 

728
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,300
wanted to go all into Hardware 
business, they fought the now is

729
00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:02,800
the time to sell hardware and 
they thought that since we had 

730
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:07,600
this, you know, Russian 
offensive into your Crane and 

731
00:41:07,900 --> 00:41:10,900
the energy crisis, you know, it 
was, it was really like, you 

732
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:13,200
know, big, you know, last last 
summer. 

733
00:41:13,500 --> 00:41:15,300
So they thought the nobody's 
gonna be interesting to see the,

734
00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:17,900
ER, because we've got describes 
the novel like, well, you know, 

735
00:41:17,900 --> 00:41:21,500
I don't think so, you know, and 
and then they wanted to go 

736
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:24,500
all-in into a huge project. 
You know, that was the, we've 

737
00:41:24,500 --> 00:41:29,200
been trying to make happen for, 
for 23 years, and but we didn't 

738
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,500
really find a way to make it 
work for everybody and the risk 

739
00:41:32,500 --> 00:41:35,700
would have been on us. 
And it would have been kind of 

740
00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:38,900
open book Cost Plus 10% and all 
the risk on us. 

741
00:41:39,100 --> 00:41:42,600
I saw what my role would have 
been, you know, for the next 2-3

742
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,500
years, you know, and, and I 
couldn't go down that road. 

743
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:51,300
So in the end, you know, they 
they fired me and that was in 

744
00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:55,400
the end of beginning of August. 
So it's 10 months almost no. 

745
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,400
And they really, you know, 
didn't think that we were going 

746
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,300
anywhere and they didn't think 
that, you know, that is what we 

747
00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:05,000
should have been doing. 
And I've seen a lot of Of you 

748
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,500
know, equipment business. 
And I've seen a lot of projects 

749
00:42:08,100 --> 00:42:12,500
and I've still kind of very, 
very adamant that the right way 

750
00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:16,700
to go is to develop a few 
projects of your own, you know. 

751
00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:21,100
Maybe then 34 years down the 
line, even to free, you could, 

752
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,000
you could sell them to third 
parties to, but it's good to 

753
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,200
have a couple of, you know, 
plans of her own and solid 

754
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,900
reference base before, you know,
you possibly run into a 

755
00:42:29,900 --> 00:42:32,000
difficult client or difficult 
project. 

756
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,900
And the assails projects are 
often difficult because the 

757
00:42:34,900 --> 00:42:38,100
clients often you know they 
don't use the feedstock that 

758
00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:40,500
they tell you that they're going
to use and then when it doesn't 

759
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:43,100
work they're going to blame you 
on and then you don't get the 

760
00:42:43,100 --> 00:42:46,200
money and then, you know, end 
up, you know, going back and 

761
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:47,400
forth and trying to fix 
something. 

762
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,300
The problem that is not yours. 
And, you know, kind of, you 

763
00:42:51,300 --> 00:42:54,100
know, burn myself out, you know,
in that kind of business, a long

764
00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:56,400
time ago. 
So so my body tells me, you 

765
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,200
know, don't go don't go, there 
isn't, is it a big bottle necks 

766
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,400
for biochar, still there? 
Is not a large-scale 

767
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,400
manufacturer of Kilns or other 
devices, right? 

768
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,000
I've heard people say this. 
I don't know to what degree, 

769
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,500
it's true. 
But that is a bottleneck right 

770
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,100
at the moment. 
Yeah, yeah. 

771
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,300
Some of the equipment suppliers 
are are, you know, in short 

772
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:20,100
supply. 
I mean they can make enough with

773
00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:22,500
those machines and there's a 
long lonely time. 

774
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:27,500
Probably could be two years with
some, some companies me, 

775
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:30,600
whatever though, if you weren't 
enjoying your work or the 

776
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,400
relationships want, right? 
Or she's not. 

777
00:43:33,300 --> 00:43:36,200
Vertical, you're interested in 
serving their, I think you're 

778
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,200
probably better off. 
Just moving on, at finding 

779
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,800
something that you are 
passionate about and whenever 

780
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,300
whenever you sell what you're 
working on now and become 

781
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:45,600
fabulously wealthy. 
And then you move on diffusion 

782
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,400
and then you solve that and then
what's next for you, sampo seems

783
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,400
like the world is your oyster 
right now. 

784
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,200
Got our. 
We just we just building him. 

785
00:43:53,300 --> 00:43:56,200
We've never been so 
complimentary show ever. 

786
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,800
I also just appreciate I 
appreciate your candor because I

787
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,100
feel like I've been. 
I feel like with any, you know, 

788
00:44:02,100 --> 00:44:04,000
here we are. 
On a podcast, I appreciate your 

789
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,600
candor because I think within 
CDR and climate in general, we 

790
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,200
don't talk enough enough about 
the conflicts that can arise 

791
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,100
within the startup ecosystem. 
And I think it is a very 

792
00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:17,500
supportive sector like much more
than other startups. 

793
00:44:17,500 --> 00:44:20,100
That our Founders, there's a lot
of support, but at the same 

794
00:44:20,100 --> 00:44:23,300
time, you know, I'm part of a 
various different groups. 

795
00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:26,400
Are we meet weekly to talk 
Founders and and the struggles 

796
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,900
in the conflicts that arise and 
the people want to go in 

797
00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:32,000
different directions and I just 
think we don't acknowledge that 

798
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:33,300
enough. 
Their community. 

799
00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:36,300
And so it's great to just hear 
you speak frankly about your 

800
00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:38,300
challenges and how you're 
recovering from them. 

801
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,200
Yeah, I've had to take a little 
breather after that because 

802
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,200
obviously, you know, it was a, 
it was a huge. 

803
00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:48,500
I put everything, you know, 
pretty much on the line and six 

804
00:44:48,500 --> 00:44:51,900
years and a lot of my kids grew 
up in that time. 

805
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:56,700
And also, you know, you know, it
took Financial sacrifices to, 

806
00:44:56,700 --> 00:45:00,600
you know, initially. 
So so, you know, but but yeah, 

807
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,800
you know, it's an old rule of 
thumb, you know, you gotta, you 

808
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:09,800
know, do what you, you know, 
like and you know, What would, 

809
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,700
you know what you're good at? 
And you know, if you know, 

810
00:45:13,700 --> 00:45:15,900
people don't appreciate your 
talent, then you take your towel

811
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:18,800
elsewhere and, you know, sell it
to sell to somebody else or, you

812
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,400
know, make her own fortune. 
And, well, that's what I'm 

813
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,200
pretty much been doing. 
I've been an entrepreneur, all 

814
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,300
my life and, you know, I have to
work early to tend to your bees 

815
00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:29,500
and your cows. 
I feel like that would be the 

816
00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:33,800
calming, the calming outlet for 
her high stress, climate Tech 

817
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,300
work. 
I'm also, you know, devoted Yogi

818
00:45:37,300 --> 00:45:40,900
and I do meditate too. 
Hours a day and I'm a vegan. 

819
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,400
You can have been on a 
vegetarian diet diet since 1998 

820
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,700
and I'm gonna call you out then 
for your kill two birds with one

821
00:45:49,700 --> 00:45:54,100
stone comment because I learned 
from my I'm a lifelong 

822
00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:56,500
vegetarian and my mother would 
always say no no Siobhan. 

823
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:02,800
You can't, you feed two birds 
with one stone which was to be 

824
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,700
the cheesiest most deplorable 
turn of phrase, you know, 

825
00:46:07,700 --> 00:46:10,200
defying animal cruelty. 
But But I remember it to this 

826
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,600
day so when everyone, someone 
says that I had my head, I think

827
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,600
the two birds with one stone. 
Yeah, I normally don't use 

828
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,100
violent metaphors or, you know, 
things like that but it's, you 

829
00:46:19,100 --> 00:46:21,600
know. 
Just yeah. 

830
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,800
What I had, you know, at the 
moment it up. 

831
00:46:27,700 --> 00:46:30,100
Oh God, I'm sorry. 
No, no. 

832
00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:34,300
I was just, I was just, I was 
just trying to figure out if it 

833
00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:36,500
was from the King James Bible, 
or from Shakespeare, that's 

834
00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:38,400
always the game. 
When there's a weird old idiom, 

835
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,200
I'm like, which of these two is 
it from? 

836
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,000
It's one of the two. 
Yeah, Shakespeare is pretty 

837
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,500
much, you know, everywhere. 
And I was surprised myself. 

838
00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:48,900
Once again, if you, if you read 
the King James, like the 

839
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:52,000
gospels, and you read a hamlet, 
you're like, cool. 

840
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,300
This is like 75 of the most 
commonly used idioms that are 

841
00:46:56,300 --> 00:46:58,300
still in use. 
Yes. 

842
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,600
All Danced. 
He had to, you know, he was good

843
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,600
with the word and good with the 
with the pain. 

844
00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:07,800
No doubt, okay. 
An honor, this is, this is 

845
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:12,800
outside of the, the meaning of 
this podcast, but I'm doing it 

846
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,300
now. 
Yeah. 

847
00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:17,200
And you know, I'm kind of 
collector of phrases, you know, 

848
00:47:17,500 --> 00:47:20,400
my friends were, you know, 
coming up after me sometime some

849
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,800
point because I was just, you 
know, using a metaphor, you 

850
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,600
know, after a metaphor or a 
phrase after a phrase and it 

851
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,100
gets irritating after after a 
little while, you know because 

852
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:31,900
Your Justina every time you open
your mouth. 

853
00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:34,600
There's this. 
Speaking a metaphor? 

854
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,900
Yeah, yeah. 
Well, do you? 

855
00:47:38,100 --> 00:47:39,400
I'm not while he's looking for 
this. 

856
00:47:40,100 --> 00:47:42,900
How do you fit two hours a day 
of meditation? 

857
00:47:42,900 --> 00:47:46,400
And I ask that, is that CD are 
adjacent because should we all 

858
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,100
be doing two hours of meditation
as we build our city, our 

859
00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:52,900
Solutions, well, my girl tells 
me that businessmen should do 

860
00:47:52,900 --> 00:47:56,000
for you hours of meditation a 
day because you know, the mind 

861
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,900
is racing and you should do a 
one hour and at midday or, you 

862
00:47:58,900 --> 00:48:01,400
know, early afternoon as well 
just to, you know, keep your kid

863
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:06,000
to, you know, keep the reins But
you do it early in the morning 

864
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,700
and do it late in the evening. 
And you know, the boot has said 

865
00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:12,300
that you know the best time to 
practice your mind is between 4 

866
00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:16,000
and 7 in the morning. 
So you know ideally do it then 

867
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:21,100
or then around 12:00 midnight is
also good unless if you need to 

868
00:48:21,100 --> 00:48:22,300
be in bed, you can do it 
earlier. 

869
00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:26,500
No, I'm not kidding. 
When I said I was like proud 

870
00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:29,100
when I got up to 15 minutes so 
you're really putting me to 

871
00:48:29,100 --> 00:48:32,200
shame here. 
No, I'm not shaving anybody, you

872
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,800
know the thing is that I was I 
had a hard time you sitting five

873
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,600
minutes initially and I might 
was breaking sweat, you know, 

874
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,100
just as soon as the thought of 
sitting down or doing, you know,

875
00:48:41,100 --> 00:48:43,600
as asanas or anything like that,
you know, it just, you know, 

876
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,400
immediately I started sweating 
and it, I don't know how it 

877
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,000
created that kind of reaction in
my in my body but you know, 

878
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,200
first you do five minutes, you 
do 10 minutes and You little by 

879
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,800
little you grow into it and 
after 20 years, you can't eat or

880
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,200
sleep if you don't do 
meditation. 

881
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,800
So quite often you know if I'm 
getting the morning it's because

882
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,900
I made it hate it too long. 
So you know it's it's just hard 

883
00:49:04,900 --> 00:49:08,600
to part to let go. 
Sometimes I was mostly just 

884
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:12,100
going to ask are you with all of
your other ridiculous 

885
00:49:12,100 --> 00:49:14,100
experiences here and 
achievements? 

886
00:49:14,100 --> 00:49:20,800
Are you also see male hyah Well,
I want the best shot shooter in 

887
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,300
my regiment. 
I still have a like a golden 

888
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,100
golden medal but that's that's 
nothing. 

889
00:49:25,100 --> 00:49:28,200
I mean finish are typically 
pretty good, pretty handy with 

890
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:33,900
rifles and most of the males 
have, you know, gone to the 

891
00:49:33,900 --> 00:49:37,400
military when served serve some 
time and everybody knows how to 

892
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,100
handle a little guys. 
But I actually, I'm competitive 

893
00:49:40,100 --> 00:49:41,700
shooter. 
I do cowboy action shooting. 

894
00:49:42,700 --> 00:49:47,400
So it's kind of a I've got a are
so many layers. 

895
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,800
I feel like we're peeling back 
the mineralized carbon layers 

896
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,800
and finding out more. 
You can put on Rose person. 

897
00:49:54,100 --> 00:49:57,800
Siobhan, but he's like the most 
celebrated sniper of all time 

898
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,100
but in the winter war against 
the Soviets, during World War 

899
00:50:01,100 --> 00:50:04,300
Two, it was like I'm just 
looking at Wikipedia is like 

900
00:50:04,300 --> 00:50:06,200
500. 
Yeah. 

901
00:50:06,300 --> 00:50:09,400
That was a commercial firm count
but, you know, the unconfirmed 

902
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,900
God could be double, you know. 
Yeah. 

903
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,500
And yeah, here. 
Always said that. 

904
00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:18,400
Well, I just did the job today 
at that was given to me as good 

905
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:23,000
as I could. 
And, you know, You know, it's I 

906
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,100
mean, matter of fact, Nordic 
nature. 

907
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:31,100
I have to show you this. 
I've got a little dent in my 

908
00:50:31,100 --> 00:50:36,000
finger, because I did so much 
shotgunning last Sunday and we 

909
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,900
shooting at a barrel. 
And the, the task was to kind of

910
00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:41,600
flip it over, you know, with the
shotgun so that you shoot it 

911
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,100
once, it kind of go a little bit
and then you have to shoot it 

912
00:50:44,100 --> 00:50:47,700
again quickly, so that it would 
talk over and I had to do a lot 

913
00:50:47,700 --> 00:50:51,300
of times, but then he was a kind
of kind of a stage You know, me 

914
00:50:51,300 --> 00:50:54,700
and them of action. 
I'm Kai but cowboy action right 

915
00:50:54,700 --> 00:50:56,400
there. 
Yeah, yeah. 

916
00:50:56,500 --> 00:50:59,300
And I have two cows and I can 
actually call myself a cowboy, a

917
00:50:59,308 --> 00:51:02,700
true Cowboy, but I don't have my
10-gallon. 

918
00:51:02,900 --> 00:51:06,800
Cowboy hat, you know, just, you 
know, within reach house and I 

919
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,700
was too bad like friends with 
Julio Friedman, the Wrangler. 

920
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:26,200
Yeah. 
He's got a stage Charisma, he 

921
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,200
knows what talking about to have
to respect that. 

922
00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:33,200
He's only person I know who has 
like a dedicated carbon removal 

923
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,100
Persona in that kind of way I 
love you, too. 

924
00:51:37,100 --> 00:51:39,800
I am the carbon Wrangler and 
that's that is who I am. 

925
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,400
And what, what is this? 
You're showing, you see you 

926
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,300
going down. 
Oh, it's being Wrangler. 

927
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,200
Speak. 
Yeah, that's what I'm on the 

928
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,100
phone. 
That's what you can see. 

929
00:51:52,100 --> 00:52:01,800
This is, you know, sadly it is 
not from Shakespeare or King 

930
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:08,100
James or the King James. 
That's, that's always my 

931
00:52:08,100 --> 00:52:12,700
gristick don't have to guess. 
I'm just, like - just as pretty 

932
00:52:12,700 --> 00:52:18,800
good, you know, take the bull by
the horn and that's the You'll 

933
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,500
never be a bull. 
I guess I was trying to make, 

934
00:52:23,500 --> 00:52:26,100
make it sound Shakespearean. 
All I came up with hostile, 

935
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:34,400
wrangled nine carbon, but I was 
like just waiting for the next 

936
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,900
car movable mean and you know, 
see we got some good ones. 

937
00:52:37,900 --> 00:52:40,300
Have to make one for will have 
to make one for this show. 

938
00:52:40,300 --> 00:52:43,500
I had some ideas that led in my 
brain during this, so I'll make 

939
00:52:43,500 --> 00:52:47,000
some and tag, you ready? 
One on like, the co-benefits of 

940
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,500
DAC. 
Back and make fun of that. 

941
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:54,700
Yeah, me get, you know, paddling
my canoe down the proverbial 

942
00:52:54,700 --> 00:52:57,500
stream coming out of my dad 
planned, and, you know, going 

943
00:52:57,500 --> 00:53:00,500
down to the to the Village, you 
know, to the farm. 

944
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,200
Good budgets, do you think we're
working with over here? 

945
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,300
How do you think we do? 
We take a crappy image. 

946
00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:12,600
That's already been used and we 
stick them sick text on it. 

947
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,500
Well, that's that works. 
Keep doing it. 

948
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:20,000
I love it. 
Yeah, I laugh out loud. 

949
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,000
Sometimes, you know, when I see 
the car removal means something 

950
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,400
like every. 
And I am glad because sometimes 

951
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,500
you get noticed too that are 
little people will say like well

952
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:31,900
these are really quite Niche to 
carbon removal me. 

953
00:53:31,900 --> 00:53:34,800
They're like, well yeah, there's
plenty of more, generic 

954
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:36,900
environmental memes Pages out 
there. 

955
00:53:37,300 --> 00:53:40,900
They don't need more of those, 
but carbon removal as a 

956
00:53:40,900 --> 00:53:44,600
community, we need those. 
Well, I need those and, you 

957
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,600
know, it's just like sometimes, 
you know, I think, you know, I 

958
00:53:47,607 --> 00:53:50,300
really like when you when you 
live and breathe, you know that 

959
00:53:50,300 --> 00:53:52,800
that you know trade then, you 
know, a lot of those things are.

960
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,100
So so real to you and and you 
know sometimes it just really 

961
00:53:56,100 --> 00:53:59,300
hits hits. 
You know this choir and like I 

962
00:53:59,300 --> 00:54:02,500
said, I laugh out loud sometimes
and I applaud you. 

963
00:54:03,500 --> 00:54:06,200
Thank you and keep you in mind. 
You're like are your Lids like a

964
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,100
customer Discovery call all the 
second and now we need the 

965
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:15,000
sudden here figure out, okay, 
this effect, I'm glad to be able

966
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:20,100
to be complementary, you know, 
Thank you happy with me and it's

967
00:54:20,100 --> 00:54:21,700
making you laugh. 
I think that's an important 

968
00:54:21,700 --> 00:54:25,300
thing to do. 
Well yeah rap, yeah we good. 

969
00:54:25,300 --> 00:54:26,600
That's wrap it up. 
I think we're good. 

970
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,800
I think we went all the way from
Daft to farming to cowboy 

971
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,600
shooting. 
So Julio makes an appearance. 

972
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,100
That's always fun. 
Yeah, yeah, I'll take note, I'll

973
00:54:36,100 --> 00:54:39,600
challenge Julio you know to a 
couple of shooting match anytime

974
00:54:42,500 --> 00:54:45,700
I think that's beyond the remit 
of his Persona, I don't know 

975
00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:47,400
that there's a lot of target 
shooting. 

976
00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:53,200
Obscure target shooting 
competitions in his daily but 

977
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:55,800
no, but that's how we dress 
that's how we dress when we go 

978
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,000
to the, you know, cowboy action,
you know, I should hope so I 

979
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,700
should hope. 
So thank you so much for 

980
00:55:02,700 --> 00:55:04,400
listening. 
If you could please subscribe 

981
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:06,900
and give us a great rating and 
review on Apple podcast or a 

982
00:55:06,908 --> 00:55:09,600
rating on Spotify that be much 
appreciated. 

983
00:55:09,700 --> 00:55:11,500
It helps us get our content out 
to more people. 

984
00:55:11,900 --> 00:55:14,000
You can sign up for our 
newsletter at nor e.com. 

985
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,600
Follow us on social media. 
We will catch you next time.