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for listening to another season 
of reversing climate change. 

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Hello and welcome to the 
reversing climate Podcast. 

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I'm Ross, Kenyan lead strategist
at the Nori carbon removal 

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Marketplace. 
Today, we have an alumna back, 

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dr. 
Holly Jean Buck research fellow 

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at The Institute of the 
environment and sustainability 

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at UCLA. 
Holly, you wrote how to 

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decolonize the atmosphere and 
Progressive International, which

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gave me the chance I needed to 
invite you back on to do a bonus

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episode. 
So, thanks so much for being 

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here. 
Yeah, thanks for having me, what

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led to your writing this 
article? 

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And I don't know that we've 
actually covered this before 

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which is Is potentially even 
negligent on my part. 

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But what does it mean to be 
colonized the atmosphere? 

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And what does it mean to be 
colonised generally? 

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So I was inspired by a lot of 
recent writing, including the 

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Red Nation that put out the red 
deal. 

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So these different series of 
explaining what that is the 

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third, the third part about 
indigenous action to save Earth 

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is about healing the atmosphere,
right? 

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And they say that first world 
Nations have colonized the 

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atmosphere with their greenhouse
gas emissions and that Producing

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an absorbing emissions to 
decolonize. 

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That atmosphere is what we 
urgently need to be doing. 

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And I thought that was a really 
good starting point for thinking

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about what carbon removal means.
If you think about all those 

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emissions, the weight of them 
taking up the space, it's the 

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first world emissions u.s. 
emissions. 

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What does it mean to remove 
that? 

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Can that be a d Colonial 
practice? 

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And I just say that, it might 
seem very far-fetched because a 

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lot of of the conventional ways 
of thinking about carbon removal

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would actually just further 
entrench, settler, Colonial 

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infrastructure. 
So this is very radical 

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departure from how a lot of 
people are thinking about it 

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today but I think it's an 
interesting and important 

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provocation. 
Yeah. 

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Okay. 
Those are that's the first time 

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that those terms have come up on
the show. 

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I'm pretty sure. 
So when I think of settler 

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colonialism I usually think of 
it as contrasted against 

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indigenous He or being in 
business, would you mind 

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sketching a little bit of what 
these terms mean for someone who

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may be encountering them for the
first time? 

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Yeah. 
And I but I mean I will caveat 

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it that I'm not an expert in so 
I'm really drawing from thinkers

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like Nick asta's Winona, Laduke,
Kyle white other people who have

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you know explain this to me that
I'm trying to learn from right 

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but as Winona Laduke and Deborah
come and say in a recent article

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about Beyond wendigo 
infrastructure, they say 

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infrastructures The how of 
settler colonialism, settler 

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colonialism being this form of 
colonialism where people come 

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and settle on the land 
Outsiders. 

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Usually very violent extractive 
process in find was capitalism, 

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in many cases. 
And so carbon removal 

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infrastructure, would that also 
be, you know, another extension 

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of settler colonialism or can we
imagine an infrastructure for 

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removing carbon? 
That's in their words. 

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Elementary something that's 
life-giving in. 

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Its design, its Finance its 
effects. 

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That's how you know it's a huge 
question that I want to explore 

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with people especially people 
that are better singers than me,

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frankly about these things and 
we should have some of them on 

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and do greater Justice to this 
topic because it's certainly 

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interesting and of interest to 
our audience and we have not 

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covered it nearly as much as we 
should. 

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So that's enough. 
We will be doing in the future 

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but I guess how exactly might 
one? 

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Pursue a project, like, Addie 
Colonial carbon removal regime, 

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because as your work has 
documented, and we've had you on

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for your book after 
geoengineering and this has come

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up, other places. 
How do you make sure carbon 

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removal? 
Doesn't become a business as 

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usual, kind of strategy. 
What needs to change in order to

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make carbon removal, liberatory,
or your work specifically, seems

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to be how does the left use 
carbon removal in a way that 

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fits in with. 
Their broader goals and 

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worldview as opposed to being 
something that reinforces the 

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structures that they do not care
for that currently exists. 

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Is that is that a fair summation
of your work? 

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Yeah. 
And I think that one way to 

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approach this is through the 
green New Deal framework since 

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that centers, equality and 
environmental justice kind of by

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definition. 
And so that's what I've been 

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thinking about for a while and 
what a lot of this article and 

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Progressive Internationals 
about. 

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And it's interesting to kind of 
Think about that at the same 

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time as looking at the 
Democratic climate crisis, 

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action plan that came out 
recently. 

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I guess a week ago now, maybe 
two weeks ago from the the house

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committee, right? 
Because it talks about carbon 

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removal in ways that would kind 
of synergize with the green New 

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Deal framework, but are not 
quite as Progressive as what I'm

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describing in this article. 
So I think there's basically 

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three things we need to do to Be
more radical with this. 

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One of them is Lincoln carbon 
removal with the manage decline 

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of fossil fuels and thinking 
about these has The same project

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basically looking at supply side
policies that integrate carbon 

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removal whisk for their 
production of fossil fuels. 

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So that could be something like 
a carbon take back requirement, 

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meaning that companies are 
required to take back carbon 

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that they emit or produce, just 
transition programs to support 

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workers to transition from 
fossil fuel extraction, jobs to 

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carbon management, carbon 
Services, carbon cleanup jobs, 

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and then minimizing The 
remaining a mission. 

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So really making residual 
emissions a political matter. 

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Not just kind of a calculation 
of what's left over. 

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But really politicizing that in 
line with science and 

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biophysical reality, of course. 
Okay, I'm trying to decide if I 

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want you to lay out the outline 
of all three or we just dive in 

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because every every one of those
you you laid out in the first 

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pillar, I know I know what does 
it mean to politicize? 

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Residual missions. 
Like what? 

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What exactly do you have in 
mind? 

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When you say That. 
Okay, so as I say most of your 

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listeners now so net net zero 
targets by 2050 or whatever 

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assume some amount of residual 
emissions. 

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And that there's going to be 
negative emissions capacity to 

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balance those and usually, the 
residual emissions defined by 

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different entities. 
Whether that be a nation state 

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or a US state, or a city or a 
company often, work out to be 

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between 10 and 20 percent of 
current. 

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Um, Sentence Goldman Sachs and 
their carbon Atomic support has 

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a figure of 25 percent. 
I mean, generally there's some 

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significant portion that is 
difficult to decarbonise, mostly

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for biophysical reasons, but not
necessarily, right? 

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So I think that this needs to be
both Technical and political 

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conversation about how many 
residual emissions we can cope 

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with and should cope with. 
There's one other one you 

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mentioned in there too. 
You just quickly named the other

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ones that you Have mentioned. 
Yeah, I mean, in terms of 

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integrating carbon removal with 
the manage decline of fossil 

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fuels thinking about just 
transition and thinking about 

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supply side policies, I mean, I 
think that needs to be a much 

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bigger focus of the whole 
climate policy writ large. 

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Yeah. 
By the way, are you going to 

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allow this a supply side because
it makes you sound like a 

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reaganite? 
I don't think you're allowed to 

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do that, step 1 and then so what
is that? 

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And then also just transition 
policy, I think is very 

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interesting too. 
Could you outline a bit what? 

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These mean. 
So, I mean supply-side, I just 

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feel like a lot of climate 
policy is focused on Curbing 

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demand and we need to think more
about curbing production as well

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in a much more planned regulated
way. 

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It's like industrial policy 
rather than changing your light 

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bulbs, something like that. 
Yeah, so that we could mean 

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production quotas for fossil 
fuels, it could be linking 

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production with two certificates
of obligation for carbon 

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removal. 
All just a much more planned 

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heavy-handed approach than just 
letting the market decide about 

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that. 
And then just transition as I 

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understand, it has been more 
about what do you do with people

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who have invested a lifetime and
learning the skills necessary to

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be Roughnecks in the oil patch 
or something like that. 

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And now what do they do? 
How do you get buy-in from 

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Working Class? 
People who are sort of their 

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like, God, this is, this is the 
worst type of economy is amiss a

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but they're stranded assets. 
Themselves, right? 

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It's like what do you do with 
human stranded assets? 

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That's the worst most neoliberal
thing. 

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I've ever said on the show, you 
can cast me in into the far 

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left, outer Darkness for that 
statement. 

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Have, I mean, this is something 
I'm really concerned about, you 

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know, is in the petroleum 
Museum, in Midland, Texas and 

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the Permian Basin where there's 
a lot of enhanced oil recovery 

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and in this Museum, there's a 
this exhibit about, you know, 

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what's going to happen to? 
Two workers, if oil runs out and

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this Q&A and answer is we're not
going to run out because 

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enhanced oil recovery will keep 
jobs coming for the foreseeable 

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future. 
I mean, it was really pitched at

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the oil workers that are worried
about. 

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Should they even get into this 
industry? 

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What's the future going to be? 
And so, you can see that, you 

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know, enhanced oil recovery 
perhaps coupled with carbon 

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removal, policy could be a way 
forward for people who already 

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have skills. 
That industry and it's been 

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interesting to see, even the 
global CCS Institute has a 

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recent report where they use the
language of the just transition.

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There's a new report out from 
rhodium about jobs and direct 

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are capture. 
I think that this is a 

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increasingly of interest to 
people on both sides of the 

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aisle. 
Yeah, we use this Frederick to 

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and then I've also seen in other
places lately but they're 

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trained to pull hydrocarbons and
carbon molecules out of the 

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Ground, can we just reverse the 
process? 

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Do those skills transplant 
effectively into the new carbon 

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capture industry? 
I hope so. 

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I do you think that's actually 
going to happen in the way that 

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people are hopeful for. 
Maybe I am also starting to have

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a few concerns about it because 
it doesn't necessarily change 

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the mode of production which is 
that which is what I'm more 

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interested in. 
And I also think that if you go 

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to a place like Denver City 
Texas, which is where Is really 

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00:11:39,300 --> 00:11:45,500
big CO2 flood infrastructure. 
I mean it's the gender Dynamics 

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and this town are just like the 
craziest you've seen like and 

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you can see this in the Census 
Data to about earnings between 

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men and women. 
It's like the men have these 

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high paying jobs and the women 
if they have a job will be in 

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these Gas Station restaurant. 
Service industry jobs and as a 

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just transition switching, this 
two carbon removal. 

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Going to just replicate those 
gender Dynamics. 

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I don't know. 
I just wanted to throw that in 

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there. 
Yeah, Bots difficult. 

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Sociological knots to untie on 
your know what you, what you do 

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in cases like that. 
But okay let's let's keep going 

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to your second pillar here. 
Holly. 

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So the second one is ensure the 
public has ownership and return 

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on investment. 
So what did you have in mind for

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this pillar? 
I guess. 

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This is kind of my offhand 
comment a minute ago about the 

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mode of production, so, Carbon 
removal. 

231
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Just going to replicate the same
kind of social relations between

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big energy companies and workers
as we have now or is there a 

233
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chance to change it? 
So that the public has ownership

234
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,900
Stakes collective decision, 
making and get something from 

235
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this new infrastructure. 
We're thinking of building out. 

236
00:13:00,900 --> 00:13:03,800
I'm curious about this, too. 
It just came up on Leah Stokes 

237
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is episode a bit as well, which 
is that some types of public 

238
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ownership. 
Particularly for utilities have 

239
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,300
not been as Progressive as 
people had, maybe poked. 

240
00:13:14,300 --> 00:13:17,400
So do you think there are are 
things that were? 

241
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,000
Maybe missing about how 
utilities should be transformed 

242
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moving forward. 
Probably yeah, person to comment

243
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,100
on that. 
Yeah yeah. 

244
00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:31,600
Fair enough. 
It's a it's a hard one. 

245
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,200
I'm not totally sure either but 
I think people do tend to think 

246
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,700
that public ownership itself 
changes the dynamic Enough that 

247
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it's not a Panacea that was put 
in place just solves everything 

248
00:13:43,700 --> 00:13:45,300
there. 
Some of those same incentive 

249
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still exist, independent of that
ownership structure. 

250
00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:51,600
So I guess, what do you do to 
have a truly Progressive utility

251
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,600
or something like that? 
Yeah, I guess when I was 

252
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thinking about that point, I was
thinking about both Municipal 

253
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operations in waste management, 
and I was also thinking about 

254
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agricultural coops because I was
out in the field, talking to 

255
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:11,100
people who cooperatively owned, 
And dairies with, you know, 100 

256
00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:15,600
owners or were using these kind 
of new arrangements to make 

257
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:18,100
agriculture work economically 
for them. 

258
00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:21,400
And so, I think that I mean, 
utilities is the obvious thing 

259
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,400
to look at but we could even go.
Further, afield to look for 

260
00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:26,700
other models of how that might 
work. 

261
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,100
And this return on investment 
what exactly is meant by this, 

262
00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:35,000
where might that money be 
flowing into what might these 

263
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,400
industries BP funding Beyond 
themselves. 

264
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,600
I think this really depends on 
the form of carbon removal 

265
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,300
because obviously there are some
forms like bioenergy with ccs 

266
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:49,400
where you have a usable good at 
the end. 

267
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,500
And then I see direct are 
captures more of a waste 

268
00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:57,900
disposal service. 
So I mean the the economics of 

269
00:14:57,900 --> 00:14:59,500
those I think are pretty 
different. 

270
00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:01,300
Yeah. 
Certainly. 

271
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,800
But I guess, so the concern then
is, as policy is being created, 

272
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:11,700
how is it being done? 
Start giant companies that the 

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00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:14,800
average person has very little 
control over that doesn't just 

274
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,900
become the future for director 
capture or some of these other 

275
00:15:17,900 --> 00:15:21,700
carbon capture methods there's 
an element of wanting to change 

276
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:25,500
the the structures of these such
that they are more democratic or

277
00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:27,800
under public control or 
something like that. 

278
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,900
That's that's the vision. 
Yeah, I guess part of the reason

279
00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:35,600
I was thinking about this is 
because I have a paper I wrote 

280
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:40,800
coming out soon in interphase Us
Focus, which is a scientific 

281
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,600
journal, that looks at the 
history of Waste Management, 

282
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:50,300
both in liquid waste and solid 
waste over the past couple of 

283
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:53,900
centuries and how there's this 
kind of tension and going back 

284
00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:57,600
and forth between, you know, 
should these be viewed as 

285
00:15:57,700 --> 00:16:00,200
private Industries and 
opportunities for Private 

286
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,100
Industry? 
Or should they be civically? 

287
00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:07,400
Held maintained infrastructure? 
And the history is kind of 

288
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,100
going. 
Can force a bit. 

289
00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:14,800
And I think that for carbon 
removal at scale of Public Works

290
00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:17,000
model just makes a lot more 
sense. 

291
00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:20,800
Yeah, because it Nori 
for-profit, private company 

292
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,800
trying to create a Marketplace 
for carbon removal. 

293
00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:25,300
Obviously, what you just said, 
baited me a little bit, Holly 

294
00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:27,000
you must have known that from 
four years ago. 

295
00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:31,400
But why do you think the 
incentives or the structure of 

296
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,200
something? 
Like, what we're trying to do, 

297
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,600
is potentially inferior to 
something that is more inside 

298
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,100
the public domain, I guess you 
could say, Say, well, I think 

299
00:16:39,100 --> 00:16:42,400
this thing here is scale and I 
think that what you're trying to

300
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,000
do probably works really well 
from million ton type scale. 

301
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,600
But then when you get to this 
gigaton scale, I mean I maybe it

302
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,400
sounds radical when I say it but
I'm thinking back on the rhodium

303
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,900
report, from May of 2019, 
capturing leadership, where they

304
00:16:58,900 --> 00:17:02,000
suggest that maybe the 
government could undertake the 

305
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,099
task of CDR itself and you know,
should we have what they call a 

306
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:10,599
federal carbon Removal 
Administration that's chartered 

307
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:15,200
by Congress to kind of help 
manage this, that the million 

308
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,599
tons scale. 
I can see a pretty obvious role 

309
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,599
for a market. 
Please connecting particular 

310
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,000
projects and that does gigaton 
scale. 

311
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:31,300
It's harder to imagine well, 
maybe for you and, you know, a 

312
00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:33,700
couple of other wonky report 
writers. 

313
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,800
No, not. 
I think there's a fair point 

314
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,500
there, too. 
And people Can legitimately take

315
00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:42,600
that is also easier to imagine 
that scale coming from. 

316
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:46,800
If the government created an 
Administration to deal with this

317
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:52,300
at scale that would clearly have
a gigantic effect and seemingly 

318
00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:55,200
because those bureaus can be 
created, just that a pen stroke 

319
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,200
from a president, right? 
That's good. 

320
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,400
Seemingly happen, very very 
quickly, whereas scaling up a 

321
00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:03,600
voluntary market place, there's 
different Dynamics at play. 

322
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,000
Is that sort of what you're 
getting at. 

323
00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:08,900
Yeah, there's a milestone 
interesting proposition thinking

324
00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:14,000
about the us as a territory 
having these geological storage 

325
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,700
assets, that could be rented to 
other countries that have less 

326
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,400
geological capacity for carbon 
storage. 

327
00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:25,000
I mean, you could apply this 
principle about public having 

328
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,400
ownership and return on 
investment there too. 

329
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:34,500
So you know if the US was to 
sequester carbon would that the 

330
00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:37,900
flows from the Funds. 
Go back to the public. 

331
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:40,600
Would they be used? 
I mean, how would they be used? 

332
00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:43,000
Like thinking about this 
throughout all the different 

333
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,600
scales? 
You know, it's just a very broad

334
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,000
principle and I didn't develop 
it in this article, it's like 

335
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,800
one paragraph, right? 
But I'm hoping that people from 

336
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,100
all different fields will 
continue to think about this 

337
00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:57,900
public ownership question. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

338
00:18:57,900 --> 00:18:59,800
I'm sure there will be more 
discussions about this in the 

339
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,300
future and then so you're 
hinting at this third pillar 

340
00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:05,400
then which is advocate for a 
global framework. 

341
00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:09,300
I work for carbon removal. 
So what might that look like for

342
00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:11,400
the World At Large? 
Yeah. 

343
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,100
So we're going to hear a lot of 
discussion about this in the 

344
00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:18,700
next couple of years and I think
that people in the NGO community

345
00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:22,800
and in policy who have been 
seeing what happened with red 

346
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,600
plus seeing what happened with 
the biofuel boom-and-bust really

347
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,700
want to avoid some kind of 
mechanism, which just has the 

348
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:35,300
global South generating carbon 
removal capacity for continue. 

349
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:38,500
Missions in the global North. 
So I think people are reasonably

350
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:42,400
aware of that danger and 
figuring out how to avoid that. 

351
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,900
Right? 
Because what we need is really 

352
00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:47,100
quite an opposite thing. 
We need the global North to 

353
00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:52,100
develop and pay for carbon 
removal to clean up our Legacy 

354
00:19:52,100 --> 00:19:55,400
emissions in doing so in ways 
that It's tricky. 

355
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,900
Because if carbon removal is an 
opportunity, you don't want 

356
00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:02,100
other countries to lose out on 
that opportunity. 

357
00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:04,300
But of carbon removal is a 
burden. 

358
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,500
Then I think I think it's 
arguable that the US and other 

359
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,000
heavily industrialized nations 
with large consumption. 

360
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,500
Should be taking up separate and
the in terms of what a global 

361
00:20:15,500 --> 00:20:18,000
mechanism looks like. 
I mean I think that you know, 

362
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,900
there's talk around mechanism. 
I think maybe article six in the

363
00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:26,200
Paris agreement to have some of 
this out, it's hard to imagine 

364
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,000
that not being a part of the, 
you know, International 

365
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,900
negotiations in the next five 
years. 

366
00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:36,800
Just because now that Nations 
have these Net Zero, Targets in 

367
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,900
thinking about and drawing up 
detailed plans, looking at their

368
00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:43,600
expected. 
Residual missions, looking at 

369
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,000
what they have within their 
borders to secure that negative 

370
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,900
emissions capacity. 
I think a lot of them will be 

371
00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:54,000
looking beyond their borders. 
And so that's when the global 

372
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:57,300
framework discussions will come 
in, I'm very curious how that 

373
00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:00,500
plays out just because there's 
something that's so 

374
00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:06,000
fundamentally unpopular 
politically It probably also 

375
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,300
just personally about taking 
responsibility for your actions.

376
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:14,300
I have a hard time imagining a 
president saying hey we're 

377
00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:17,700
responsible for the bulk of the 
world's emissions. 

378
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:22,000
Who we need to tax everyone here
to pay for this like that 

379
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,400
person's gonna get voted out of 
office very quickly. 

380
00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:27,400
I think even if that's the just 
thing to do and the right thing 

381
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,000
to do, we should we should do it
and take responsibility for our 

382
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,600
levels of consumption and 
Emissions. 

383
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,100
But it seems just some 
challenging to admit that you've

384
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:35,900
done this. 
Slang. 

385
00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:38,300
I don't know. 
Do you think it's a little too 

386
00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:41,000
pessimistic? 
I think since this has been the 

387
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,800
heart of climate debates for 
many years now, this question 

388
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,400
about historical responsibility 
and then you know, we have 

389
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,500
Frameworks like contraction and 
convergence that have emerged to

390
00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:56,000
talk about it. 
I agree with you that it seems 

391
00:21:56,700 --> 00:22:01,100
far-fetched from this standpoint
but I also think as activists 

392
00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:05,300
it's our role to push the 
window, you know, get get it. 

393
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,600
It a little bit closer, right? 
Even if it doesn't seem like the

394
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,400
most likely thing for 
politicians to do in the near 

395
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,400
term. 
Yeah, fair enough. 

396
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,100
Okay, I'm going to punch 
difficult a little bit. 

397
00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:17,900
You can tell me if this is this 
is right or wrong in your view 

398
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,600
but I think the like average 
American is probably. 

399
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,200
I was reading the other day. 
That the average person is left 

400
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,900
of where politics are now when 
it comes to economics and class 

401
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:31,100
issues and right of the median, 
when it comes to cultural 

402
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:34,400
issues, how do you think this 
poly Falls more into a cultural 

403
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,100
issue like admitting 
responsibility Possibility for 

404
00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:38,800
this are taking responsibility 
for our climate emission and the

405
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,900
average person in the Country 
Republican or Democrat, probably

406
00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:46,600
doesn't want to pay more or cut 
consumption or admit that 

407
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,100
there's really anything wrong 
with it that they have to pay 

408
00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:51,500
the personal price for it. 
I don't know. 

409
00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:54,600
I have such a hard time seeing 
that transforming. 

410
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:56,600
I don't know. 
That idea of guilt. 

411
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,500
This is slot. 
Holly, I don't even know what 

412
00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:00,400
I'm trying to say here. 
Can you make what I said 

413
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,100
intelligible? 
Yeah, I mean, so there's, 

414
00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:05,700
there's definitely a reckoning. 
Inning. 

415
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,900
I think that people have an 
easier time Reckoning with waste

416
00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:13,900
and they do with something like 
colonialism. 

417
00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:17,300
I mean, I think we need to 
reckon with all of it obviously,

418
00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:22,000
but I think that in terms of 
cleaning up your own waste, 

419
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,900
that's something that people can
generally get on board with 

420
00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:30,400
because they have experience of 
what happens if you don't write.

421
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,300
And so that's why I find this 
Waste Management framing. 

422
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,000
And Klaus lackner and Kristoff 
food, a great article in issues 

423
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,700
in science technology about 
this, which which everybody 

424
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:46,400
should read in, which they 
simply say that, you know, it's 

425
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,500
a waste management problem. 
We put the carbon there, we need

426
00:23:50,500 --> 00:23:52,600
to clean it up. 
That's something people can get 

427
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,300
on board with because it takes 
away the guilt and kind of, you 

428
00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:58,300
know, makes it simpler in a 
sense. 

429
00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:02,600
And so I do think there's a 
bipartisan cross-cultural 

430
00:24:03,100 --> 00:24:06,200
staying there which which is 
also a mattock on the other 

431
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,700
hand, if you believe that we 
actually need to get to the 

432
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:15,000
deeper, we think about our whole
history, basically, in this 

433
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,000
country, Andre narrate, what 
happened over the past, you 

434
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,500
know, for centuries which is the
point that I hope to my teaching

435
00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:28,700
and work and that we can get to.
I think that makes a chrysalis 

436
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,200
still talks about that quite a 
lot and the waste management 

437
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,200
framing is definitely less 
controversial. 

438
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,300
No one likes a litterbug. 
I don't think. 

439
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,800
From the most conservative to 
the most Progressive. 

440
00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:39,900
I can't imagine anyone is out 
there being like, yeah, you 

441
00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:41,700
should litter. 
Littering is a great thing to 

442
00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:45,000
do, I think, everyone's at least
a little bit ashamed of it, if 

443
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,800
they do it at all. 
But that being said, I lived in 

444
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,000
this apartment building that I 
was living in surprising, how 

445
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,500
many people would like leave 
boxes in the trash room and like

446
00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:56,700
not take them down and like not 
or just like leave stuff in 

447
00:24:56,700 --> 00:25:00,900
there that I could have opened 
the the shoot and thrown out. 

448
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,000
So part of me is less 
trustworthy that that will 

449
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,500
happen. 
But But I think when people hear

450
00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:10,100
Justice talk, they do start to 
hold onto their wallets are like

451
00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:12,000
oh God. 
How much is this going to cost 

452
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,800
for how much pain is going to 
cause me? 

453
00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:18,000
And having to think about these 
sort of intractable issues that 

454
00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:21,200
are sort of baked into the 
country in the World At Large? 

455
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,800
I think things are getting 
really worried, I think, I think

456
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,700
you are right that Waste 
Management does diffuse some of 

457
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:29,200
that. 
But then is the point to defuse 

458
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,500
conflict because shouldn't we 
also be having conversations 

459
00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:35,200
that make us uncomfortable to? 
Is it not? 

460
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,700
Just to just ignore that 
entirely, this is that kind of 

461
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:41,400
what you're after. 
Yeah, and I don't think we 

462
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,200
should not talk about it because
we're afraid that the 

463
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,000
conversation will take us down a
road, that's really 

464
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,500
uncomfortable. 
Like the idea of returning land 

465
00:25:51,500 --> 00:25:55,000
to indigenous people may be 
really uncomfortable for some 

466
00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:58,200
people, right? 
And so, if I think they might be

467
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:03,000
a tendency, if the conversation 
looks like it's going that way 

468
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,200
that some people might want to 
Veer into. 

469
00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:09,000
To a safer Direction. 
I think we should go you know 

470
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,600
everywhere and I think about 
this because I wrote this paper 

471
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,100
some years ago in a scientific 
journal that mentioned the word 

472
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:20,600
colonialism in it once and the 
reviewer said you know that's 

473
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,200
not appropriate to mention in 
the scientific journal and I 

474
00:26:24,208 --> 00:26:27,400
took it out because I was an 
earlier career scholar and I 

475
00:26:27,408 --> 00:26:30,200
thought, you know, it wouldn't 
get published and I've always 

476
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,700
felt bad about not pushing back,
but I think we need to take 

477
00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:37,700
these little Stu first pick it. 
Okay. 

478
00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:41,600
To say the word colonialism in a
scientific article, whatever 

479
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,300
those next steps are. 
Let's do it. 

480
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,600
Yeah, it's a good question of. 
Like a lot of the discourse is 

481
00:26:47,608 --> 00:26:51,200
he around climate change. 
Nori our Communications Stars 

482
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,200
crime to be, are closer to meet 
people where they are. 

483
00:26:54,500 --> 00:26:57,100
For instance, I just read a 
really great book called. 

484
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,300
It's called all hell. 
Breaking loose. 

485
00:26:59,300 --> 00:27:01,700
The pentagon's perspective on 
climate change, by Michael 

486
00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:04,700
Clare, have you read that book? 
I haven't read that one. 

487
00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:07,000
I've read a few Few of his 
earlier works. 

488
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,000
Okay? 
That was the first of his I 

489
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,400
read. 
I thought that was the single 

490
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,100
best book to show to 
conservatives especially if 

491
00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:18,600
they're somewhat hawkish and 
their perspective on foreign 

492
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,100
policy because it basically 
shows like military preparedness

493
00:27:23,100 --> 00:27:26,300
is really Under Siege by climate
change. 

494
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:29,700
Is going to cost a fortune to 
keep bases open and to patrol 

495
00:27:29,700 --> 00:27:32,800
the Arctic and all of the 
various things that are being 

496
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,800
stressed and the military. 
Having a humanitarian function 

497
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,400
for disasters, are all of that 
happening at a much greater 

498
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,200
level than now. 
So this is a great book to share

499
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,500
with someone. 
But is there something that is 

500
00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:48,200
problematic about meeting 
someone where they might be? 

501
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,200
Because doesn't matter like why 
someone cares about climate 

502
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,900
change so long as they end up in
a similar place? 

503
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,100
Where do we really need to all 
except all of the same premises 

504
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:01,200
about why climate change is 
important in order for us to 

505
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,100
address it in a appropriate way?
I think it's really great to 

506
00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:10,600
start by meeting people where 
they are and I definitely don't,

507
00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:16,700
you know, approach interviewing 
people in Kansas or Iowa was 

508
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:19,000
talking about and return to 
fight. 

509
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,100
But I also think that the danger
if we don't move it past that is

510
00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:29,100
then we get forms of carbon 
removal that reproduce 

511
00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:31,700
inequalities. 
So if we don't eventually move 

512
00:28:31,700 --> 00:28:35,300
the conversation to that and 
Design, Turn itive forms and 

513
00:28:35,300 --> 00:28:38,600
alternative infrastructures. 
We will be in trenching. 

514
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,000
All these structural 
inequalities. 

515
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,900
So then there's a question of. 
Okay, well, how do you move 

516
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:48,000
people along? 
How quick does that happen? 

517
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,900
I don't know. 
I mean, I think that fix it, the

518
00:28:50,900 --> 00:28:54,100
Democrats that the house 
committee did a good job in 

519
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:57,200
their plans, talking about this 
because they have tons of 

520
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,500
interesting things about how the
military can play a role in 

521
00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:04,000
scaling up CDR, right? 
I can see that as being a great 

522
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:08,100
Saying to leave with, you have 
know, if you've read this, but 

523
00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:12,100
it's pretty cool military. 
Procurement of fuels made from 

524
00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:17,000
captured carbon building, on the
sea fuel act to have rd&d 

525
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,400
projects with direct are capture
Etc. 

526
00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:23,300
I mean, that's the starting 
point I can see that. 

527
00:29:23,900 --> 00:29:26,800
Oh yeah, yeah. 
And then you say, oh well, we 

528
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,700
have energy Independence, were 
less dependent upon OPEC or we 

529
00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:34,100
don't have to deal as much with 
like Persian Gulf States that We

530
00:29:34,100 --> 00:29:36,500
have various types of 
relationships with, we could 

531
00:29:36,500 --> 00:29:39,200
just do this internally, there's
a by domestic angle to it. 

532
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:40,900
This would be done inside the 
country. 

533
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,200
It helps the military be more. 
Independent can maybe stay at 

534
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,900
Sea longer if they're able to 
capture CO2 from the atmosphere.

535
00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:49,400
Yeah, there's a whole bunch of 
reasons to if you care about 

536
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:50,400
that a lot. 
And that's the thing that you 

537
00:29:50,408 --> 00:29:53,800
care about, there's cool reasons
to think about it. 

538
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,800
But that isn't, the only reason 
these are, the question is, if 

539
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,600
we could solve climate change 
without addressing all of the 

540
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,500
other problems that the country 
in the world, It says, would it 

541
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:09,400
be worth doing it? 
Sounds like we should do this 

542
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,400
all at once. 
You just bought a house. 

543
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,100
Holly so it's like if you're 
already taking the cabinet's out

544
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:16,300
of the kitchen, should you put 
in a new Range while you're at 

545
00:30:16,300 --> 00:30:18,000
it and bringing gas from the 
street? 

546
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,400
You're already in there? 
Why not just do it all at once 

547
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,700
is that totally infantilizing 
and a stupid with footed know? 

548
00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:28,600
I think that, I mean, this is a 
question that's come up a lot on

549
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,500
your show. 
I think my way of looking at it 

550
00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:33,900
is that you know, climate change
is a crisis. 

551
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,500
We need to start on what we can,
how we can with the tools we 

552
00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:40,600
have. 
But at the end of that process, 

553
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,000
we could be living in a world 
that still sucks. 

554
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,700
Even though it confronted 
climate change. 

555
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,800
Maybe there's like creepy carbon
surveillance apps that fixed it.

556
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,300
But now, we're being monitored 
all the time or like, maybe 

557
00:30:55,300 --> 00:30:58,400
we're dealing with, you know, 
other types of environmental 

558
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,200
challenges. 
It's not like climates the only 

559
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,000
thing going on. 
So, No, it feels like the 

560
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:11,500
country is tearing at the seams 
and we have how many crises can 

561
00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:14,900
you even name? 
One time that are all on top of 

562
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:19,200
each other at this moment? 
Is it fewer than 10 for what? 

563
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:21,400
It's probably more. 
We got a problem. 

564
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,500
Like turn off before we finished
the list. 

565
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,700
I thought someone be like I 
thought it'd be fun to to like 

566
00:31:28,900 --> 00:31:31,900
live in the 60s and be in the 
Civil Rights era but now you're 

567
00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:37,200
like in the Civil Rights era and
the Nish, flu and 1939 with like

568
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,900
maybe World War 3, on the 
horizon, just like naming. 

569
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:44,400
All of these things. 
It does, it does feel 

570
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,400
cataclysmic. 
I try to be, I try to be 

571
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,000
optimistic. 
As, you know, you listen to the 

572
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,800
show enough to know, but some of
that stuff is really freaked me 

573
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,900
out and I would like us to live 
in a society that we could be 

574
00:31:54,300 --> 00:31:57,200
unalloyed proud of. 
I would be like to be nice to be

575
00:31:57,208 --> 00:31:59,900
able to like be proud of America
without having to give a single 

576
00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:02,200
caveat about anything. 
Do you know what I mean? 

577
00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:05,700
Yeah. 
I think the thing is that a lot 

578
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:10,500
of analysts see them all is like
one it's one in crisis, right? 

579
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:14,200
It's just this Mega crisis that 
we haven't evolved the right 

580
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,600
language for whether you call 
it, you know, World ecological 

581
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,400
crisis, or biodiversity crisis. 
I mean there's all these 

582
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,700
different words but it's all one
thing colonialism you could call

583
00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:30,900
it that, I mean, so yeah, I'm 
interested in this too. 

584
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:34,600
So we had Eric holthaus on and 
he, at least, Ali attributes, 

585
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,800
this root cause that idea of 
ownership. 

586
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,700
And it's an interesting idea of 
trying to diagnose what are the 

587
00:32:41,700 --> 00:32:45,900
cascading effects of fundamental
ideas that caused these sort of 

588
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,600
like internal contradictions in 
the systems that come up around 

589
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:50,700
him. 
So that's sort of like a mark 

590
00:32:50,700 --> 00:32:51,900
seen way of saying it right 
there. 

591
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:56,000
Like once you have competition 
and private property is there a 

592
00:32:56,008 --> 00:32:59,600
sort of a process that is almost
like coded into history that 

593
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,800
unfolds as time goes on? 
So I don't know if you do buy 

594
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,900
that case. 
Like, do you think Is a root 

595
00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:07,800
cause or is that too 
reductionist. 

596
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,700
I feel like if you keep going 
back and back and back and you 

597
00:33:12,708 --> 00:33:17,600
get to just really kindergarten 
stuff about like being mean or 

598
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,700
not sharing her like these 
really fundamental thing. 

599
00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:24,200
You know, somebody with a PhD 
we're taught to complicate 

600
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,100
things and that's like a verb we
use in our writing but I think 

601
00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:32,400
it's really kind of a moral 
spiritual crisis, something 

602
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,500
really deep in the route. 
Particularly of people from 

603
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,100
settler Colonial ancestry like 
like me, right? 

604
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:45,100
I think that you can now, you 
can locate it there with coming 

605
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,600
to a different place and killing
people. 

606
00:33:49,100 --> 00:33:51,700
Yeah, being mean, I think, I 
think it comes down to being me 

607
00:33:51,700 --> 00:33:55,900
and I think your your thought 
about that, the game theory of 

608
00:33:55,900 --> 00:33:58,900
it is terrible. 
I can imagine people that we 

609
00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:01,300
don't have words for it because 
they just haven't survived was 

610
00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:04,800
tens of thousands of years ago. 
I'm sure there were Peaceful 

611
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,300
hunter-gatherer societies that 
live near warlike neighbors, who

612
00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:11,300
were just exterminated. 
And then the only way that other

613
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:15,600
groups could survive was to also
become Warrior societies and 

614
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,800
have this sort of balance of 
power against others. 

615
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:22,100
And then what do you do when the
whole world is essentially that 

616
00:34:22,300 --> 00:34:26,000
how do you live peacefully in a 
world of Warriors? 

617
00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:28,500
I don't even know. 
But the incentives of defecting 

618
00:34:28,500 --> 00:34:32,600
from that like Baseline are good
in your entire society and 

619
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,900
family and everyone you know is 
is murdered and slave etcetera. 

620
00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:40,800
What do you do with that? 
I don't know, I don't know. 

621
00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:43,199
Are we going to to Elliptical 
here? 

622
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,500
Is this too weird? 
I think that there's a there's a

623
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:51,900
problem because the vocabulary 
we use in the academy and you 

624
00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:56,500
know professional sectors and 
the way we've fragmented our 

625
00:34:56,500 --> 00:35:00,000
knowledge with all these 
disciplines keeps us from 

626
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,500
talking about these like, more 
Elemental. 

627
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,000
If I don't think it's wrong or 
dumb, but I think we don't have 

628
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,000
a lot of practice with it, 
right? 

629
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,200
Yeah. 
No, he doesn't solve it ends up 

630
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,500
sounding, like, kind of like a 
little hippyish. 

631
00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:20,300
If you say it in the wrong, kind
of way and people like scarf and

632
00:35:20,300 --> 00:35:22,400
you even I'm guilty of doing 
that sometimes. 

633
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,400
But these are the only two 
solutions I've really heard for 

634
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,100
this sort of game theoretic. 
Environment is well. 

635
00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:32,700
Okay I'll preface a little bit. 
Do you know Danish maken Burgers

636
00:35:32,700 --> 00:35:33,900
work? 
No. 

637
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,400
He's interesting. 
Sort of like, complexity and 

638
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,600
risk theorist, but basically 
posits within a competitive game

639
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,600
theoretic, environment as 
technology advances, we get 

640
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,500
closer and closer to like, the 
Doomsday Machine going up. 

641
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,100
And like, we need to transform 
this Dynamic before there's 

642
00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:56,400
weaponized, Ai and like, drones 
that like, run themselves 

643
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,700
basically, because then you end 
up with Skynet and bad things 

644
00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:02,900
will happen or there's 
accidental nuke, launch that 

645
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:05,700
sets off the whole thing, So we 
need we need to like, dig down 

646
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:08,200
and figure out what is wrong 
with the incentives and I 

647
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,700
thought that was a great thought
experiment, to wrap your head 

648
00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:13,300
around. 
I've heard two potential ways 

649
00:36:13,300 --> 00:36:18,100
out of this one is a ramez naam 
who's a Nori advisory and 

650
00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:22,000
futurist and science fiction 
author his book called Nexus. 

651
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,700
Which is what if people could 
take this compound and it erases

652
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:29,400
the boundaries between people 
it's sort of like either like 

653
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,700
heightens the the psychic actor 
beats of people so that they no 

654
00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:34,700
longer see themselves as 
Individuals. 

655
00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:36,800
But a sort of you, social 
beings. 

656
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,200
So, like almost like how? 
Like maybe ants or bees, see 

657
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,100
themselves, like identify with 
the hive more than as an 

658
00:36:42,107 --> 00:36:44,500
individual. 
Like that's one thing or you 

659
00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:48,400
have sort of like a really 
strong like Christian social 

660
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,700
ethic like Tolstoy and you're 
just like fundamentally like 

661
00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:56,200
turn the other cheek resist not 
evil and you're just willing to 

662
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,100
like really model that and go 
the whole way, even at Great 

663
00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:01,800
personal cost and just like live
that Christian Dynamic. 

664
00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:04,000
Those are the only like two, 
like a spiritual Revolution. 

665
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:08,600
Ocean, or some sort of like Tech
biochemical ramez naam thing 

666
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,000
that allows us to get Beyond 
just individuality. 

667
00:37:11,100 --> 00:37:13,600
That's the only ways I've seen 
the break that game theoretical 

668
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,400
cycle. 
Sorry, I didn't do like, just go

669
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,600
on a lecture, but I've been 
thinking about that one for like

670
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,800
two years now. 
I don't know what to do beyond 

671
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,100
what I just said. 
What do you think about that? 

672
00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:27,400
Well, I've often thought that 
maybe psychedelics to obviate 

673
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,000
the need for geoengineering, 
like, instead of this Earth 

674
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,900
moving techno fixed. 
We could just have a bio 

675
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,700
Chemical techno fix because it 
seems like we're farther along 

676
00:37:37,900 --> 00:37:41,600
with drug development than we 
are with geoengineering, but 

677
00:37:41,700 --> 00:37:45,100
nobody ever takes me seriously. 
When I suggest that, I think 

678
00:37:45,100 --> 00:37:49,200
that there's something though, 
to I mean, you mentioned about 

679
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,700
religion, I think there's 
something to social norms and 

680
00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:56,300
the way they're enforced in this
current moment, that could 

681
00:37:56,300 --> 00:38:00,900
actually be used for good. 
I mean, right now we see kind of

682
00:38:01,300 --> 00:38:06,100
manifestations of that power 
like with Feed shaming, or mask,

683
00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:11,000
shaming Roots, regards to covid,
like these kind of wars on the 

684
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,400
internet, right? 
And then all the discussion 

685
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,000
about cancel culture or 
whatever, but there's a force 

686
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,700
there of people promoting Norms 
wanting to have those Norms 

687
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:24,200
wanting to be on the right side 
of things. 

688
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,800
We just had this crazy moment 
where people sacrifice 

689
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,300
tremendous amounts to protect 
vulnerable people, and I feel 

690
00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:35,300
like that's totally been lost 
and all the The, you know, 

691
00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:38,800
culture of warfare around these 
lockdowns, but it's really kind 

692
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,200
of amazing what happened. 
And so can we figure out how 

693
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,800
that's all working and apply it 
to climate change? 

694
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,600
Maybe we have a shot at steering
ourselves in a more moral 

695
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,100
spiritually. 
Hold Direction. 

696
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,400
I don't know. 
Yeah, I think that's a good 

697
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,800
example. 
Humans are both better than we 

698
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,400
expected worse at various 
moments. 

699
00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:01,500
Yeah, I don't know what you do 
about that. 

700
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:04,300
I hope that capacity is there to
break that cycle. 

701
00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:08,500
It just seems like the people 
who do break it first like pay 

702
00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:11,100
the cost and then you have a 
free rider problem which is it 

703
00:39:11,100 --> 00:39:14,200
only works if everyone basically
does it but there's great 

704
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,900
incentives for you personally, 
not to in some cases. 

705
00:39:17,900 --> 00:39:21,100
I don't know. 
Unless there's some sort of like

706
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:25,200
external ethos that you ascribe 
to that keeps you. 

707
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,600
Honest in that way. 
I don't know how we get there or

708
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,000
you just it's like a psychedelic
thing or a tech thing that 

709
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:36,500
allows us to break sort of 
Visual identification in some 

710
00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:39,900
interesting, new kind of way. 
So I don't know. 

711
00:39:39,900 --> 00:39:42,100
Is religion. 
Just the analog version of that 

712
00:39:42,500 --> 00:39:44,700
and your text psychedelic 
version is the digital. 

713
00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:48,000
Is that, is that what it is? 
That company? 

714
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,800
You know, I mean, there's this 
all this writing like in the 90s

715
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,400
and early 00s about like, how 
the internet was going to 

716
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,500
connect us, all right? 
And would be kind of one. 

717
00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:02,200
And I actually Wonder now 
watching the response to covid 

718
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,800
if that's actually happening. 
Like All around the world you 

719
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,300
know people are sensing what's 
going on. 

720
00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:10,900
They're wanting to act, I guess.
Okay. 

721
00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:14,300
Maybe this might just be the way
social media is monetized and 

722
00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:19,000
and promoted, but I mostly just 
see people who are like the 

723
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,900
angriest most pity. 
Tweets are the ones that get 

724
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,100
retweeted the most. 
I think. 

725
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,600
Do you think that is building 
something important or does it 

726
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,100
seem like? 
It's just cutting us more into 

727
00:40:30,100 --> 00:40:32,200
different groups who like to 
argue with each other? 

728
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,000
Well, right now, it definitely 
is but it's because the 

729
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,600
infrastructure is, you know, 
built in this capitalist way, 

730
00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:42,500
right? 
So, coming back to this 

731
00:40:42,500 --> 00:40:47,500
infrastructure issue, we now 
have the potential to connect 

732
00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:53,000
everybody to build social norms 
in a positive way, were limited 

733
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,400
by the infrastructure we have 
which is via these few private 

734
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,600
tech companies, right? 
But we could do it differently. 

735
00:41:01,100 --> 00:41:03,100
Yeah. 
I we're talking about Before the

736
00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:07,100
show, I think there are things 
about capitalism that are worth 

737
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:09,500
preserving. 
I like various aspects of 

738
00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:13,200
private property markets prices,
I think they're they're valuable

739
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,300
and should not be thrown out or 
spoken up to cavalierly. 

740
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:18,900
That being said, I think one of 
the best cases against 

741
00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:21,500
capitalism is almost certainly. 
The way that social media is 

742
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:24,400
monetized where the longer you 
stay on Facebook. 

743
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,300
The more ads, get served to you.
The best way to keep people on 

744
00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,500
Facebook is to have them be 
angry and commenting and yelling

745
00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:32,600
at each other. 
So, all the incentives that are 

746
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,100
Therefore that and you see a 
similar Dynamic, that's perhaps 

747
00:41:36,100 --> 00:41:40,200
a little less sophisticated but 
on with cable news, right? 

748
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,600
So like whether you watch MSNBC 
or CNN or Fox, they're all 

749
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,200
they're sort of pandering to 
their base and pointing out how 

750
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,300
the other team is really stupid.
And that's not to say that the 

751
00:41:49,300 --> 00:41:52,600
other team isn't often 
ridiculous in their own ways. 

752
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:55,400
But think it's really damaging 
that that's the way that we 

753
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,800
consume news / entertainment, 
which is just biting. 

754
00:42:00,300 --> 00:42:01,300
I think. 
I think that we're, like, 

755
00:42:01,300 --> 00:42:04,200
seeking out reasons to be. 
Angry by consuming the type of 

756
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,900
media that we are doing. 
And I don't know that like 

757
00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:12,000
Facebook making money off of 
that really is in the long-term 

758
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,800
interest of us as individual 
people. 

759
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:17,400
Or as a polis, I think this is, 
I don't know what to do about 

760
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:18,700
it. 
Holly it sounds like maybe you, 

761
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,300
maybe there should be like a 
public option for social media 

762
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:24,900
or we should just have news hour
with Jim layer on PBS. 

763
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,100
That should be like the main 
show. 

764
00:42:26,100 --> 00:42:28,100
Everyone watches. 
What do you what do you suppose 

765
00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:30,700
instead? 
Yeah, I think there should be a 

766
00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:34,100
public infrastructure. 
And I think that it would be 

767
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:36,800
great for climate change. 
I mean, maybe it's the best 

768
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:38,600
thing we could do for climate 
change. 

769
00:42:38,900 --> 00:42:42,800
You know, we're focused very 
much on building out physical 

770
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,000
infrastructure, which is also 
important. 

771
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,200
But at the same time it could be
a huge multiplier to have you 

772
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,800
know reform this science media 
policy interface. 

773
00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:58,500
Yeah we should talk about that 
and perhaps we should have you 

774
00:42:58,508 --> 00:43:01,200
back on but maybe I can link to 
it in the show notes. 

775
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,300
Will you tease our Us with a 
little outline of that other 

776
00:43:04,300 --> 00:43:07,800
paper you've mentioned around 
now trying to remember and 

777
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,300
working on like four of them. 
Oh, you're saying that like the 

778
00:43:11,300 --> 00:43:14,100
way that like scientist 
published now is with an eye 

779
00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:18,600
towards posting on social media.
And this has sort of changed the

780
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,600
directionality of Science and 
how science and knowledge work 

781
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,800
is produced or some such. 
Yeah, well, that's a theory. 

782
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,200
It's something I'm concerned 
about. 

783
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,800
It's something, I haven't 
collected empirical data on 

784
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,800
which I think it is an empirical
question. 

785
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:37,900
But Concerned that, you know, 
the incentives in science which 

786
00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:41,600
has been underfunded under 
neoliberalism had to use that 

787
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,700
word. 
Once in this podcast, you got 

788
00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:44,700
it. 
Nice. 

789
00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:50,100
You know, people are driven by 
the need to get large grants to 

790
00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:54,900
have high-profile Publications. 
Increasingly to have tweeted 

791
00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:59,200
Publications or Publications 
covered in journalistic outlets,

792
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,300
right? 
And so how much is of that is a 

793
00:44:01,308 --> 00:44:05,100
driver of Of research on 
different ideas. 

794
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,500
Big question would love to find 
out. 

795
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,500
Well yeah we talked about this 
on a previous episode with J 

796
00:44:12,500 --> 00:44:15,800
Martin true. 
Sue's a travel writer but 

797
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,700
nowadays it's no longer good 
enough to write fiction or 

798
00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:21,000
Memoirs that are just really 
good. 

799
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,900
You also have to have a baked in
media reach be like, oh on 

800
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:28,200
Twitter, I have half a million 
followers. 

801
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:29,600
And then publishes say, oh, I 
don't care. 

802
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,600
What kind of drivel you, right? 
So long as you can pitch it to 

803
00:44:32,700 --> 00:44:35,600
With the people who follow you, 
and God is the same thing 

804
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,700
happening for science to is 
that, please tell me, please, 

805
00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:42,300
tell me that's not the kids, I'm
worried because if you see some 

806
00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:45,300
of these things that have 
happened with regards to covid, 

807
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:50,000
like the retractions and the 
Lancet and different things, I 

808
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,000
mean, you can say, are these bad
apples, you know, obviously, 

809
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,000
egregious fraud, or are they 
part of a structural problem 

810
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,800
that has developed around this 
science media policy interface? 

811
00:45:02,100 --> 00:45:06,300
And if So what does that mean 
for a topic like geoengineering 

812
00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:10,100
to be introduced into that media
ecosystem? 

813
00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:13,300
It's something I've been 
thinking about for a long time 

814
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,700
but covid really Ring the Alarm 
bells for me there. 

815
00:45:16,900 --> 00:45:21,600
Wow. 
Well Holly, you're all that 

816
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:27,500
hurts to even think about. 
Yeah, I am not really on Twitter

817
00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:29,900
like at all. 
In fact, someone sweet at norio 

818
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:31,800
today was like and where's Ross,
is he not on Twitter? 

819
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,100
Like what's Deal. 
I'm sort of made a choice. 

820
00:45:35,100 --> 00:45:38,600
I don't feel like it okay. 
I would put myself on the back a

821
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,600
tiny bit Holly and like the 
point of the podcast is like we 

822
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,800
try to have people from many 
different schools of thought who

823
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,200
probably don't all agree with 
each other but we try to have 

824
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,600
respectful and interesting 
conversations with everyone. 

825
00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:53,900
I don't feel like that happens 
in social media like at all. 

826
00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:55,900
Like every time I log on to 
Twitter or Facebook is just 

827
00:45:55,900 --> 00:45:58,800
people assuming the worst of the
people that they're talking 

828
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,300
about or talking to. 
And I don't really want to play 

829
00:46:02,300 --> 00:46:03,300
in that. 
Ecosystem. 

830
00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:06,300
So I've made kind of a choice, 
not to that being said, because 

831
00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:09,000
I defected from the Baseline. 
I am punished because the 

832
00:46:09,008 --> 00:46:11,900
podcast would be more popular. 
Probably, if I were hanging out 

833
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:15,400
on Twitter & BS thing with 
everyone all the time, I don't 

834
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,600
know, like to do it. 
I don't know that we need that, 

835
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,200
but it's, that, that means the 
show probably gets less and a 

836
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:21,700
little sooner than it should 
then. 

837
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,700
So was this even the right 
choice? 

838
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,700
I don't know. 
But God, that's a depressing 

839
00:46:27,700 --> 00:46:30,000
thing that you just told me. 
And I only see part of that in 

840
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,900
my own life you could read. 
Sad by Design on platform 

841
00:46:34,900 --> 00:46:37,600
nihilism. 
So gear loving because he talks 

842
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,900
about this. 
You know what, we really need a 

843
00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:45,800
public alternative for the 
health of our society, right? 

844
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,900
But maybe Twitter and these 
things Facebook are just kind of

845
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:53,300
growing pains on our way to a 
better internet in a better form

846
00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:56,000
of connectivity. 
We can help. 

847
00:46:56,300 --> 00:46:58,600
I've heard this before, I hope 
that's true. 

848
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,000
I hope that everything makes it 
that long. 

849
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,400
So, whatever comes next Next, it
doesn't seem like Tick Tick. 

850
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,900
Tock is healing the country, but
I've seen some that have been 

851
00:47:08,100 --> 00:47:12,200
hilarious, so that's okay. 
But yeah, whatever comes next, I

852
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:13,600
don't know. 
Is there some way to incentivize

853
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:18,000
us to be the salmon, discussants
with one another? 

854
00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:21,800
Like I know I'll haul you seem 
like pretty even-keeled but 

855
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,000
surely you must get riled up in 
feel the pleasure of righteous, 

856
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,100
indignation, right? 
Occasionally? 

857
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,300
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

858
00:47:30,700 --> 00:47:33,800
But I think of a lot of people 
that's like They're like living 

859
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,400
off of that. 
I think that's like the main 

860
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,300
thing that they got in some of 
these cases. 

861
00:47:38,300 --> 00:47:42,100
Well, I feel like my gender is 
conditioned me to reflexively 

862
00:47:42,100 --> 00:47:46,800
curb it. 
I mean for worst frankly, but 

863
00:47:47,300 --> 00:47:49,100
there might be some of that 
going on. 

864
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,300
You don't want to be like the 
loud angry woman and ones like 

865
00:47:52,300 --> 00:47:54,200
Boo. 
That's really not like coming up

866
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,400
her. 
I mean if you think of a 

867
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,600
contrarian think about the 
people that come to mind, are 

868
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,800
there any women that come to 
mind when you think contrarian? 

869
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,200
Nope, I first person I thought 
it was sort of like a guy who 

870
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:07,900
brews his own beer and listens 
to me. 

871
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:10,700
Richard Dawkins. 
That was the first person I 

872
00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:13,400
thought of maybe unfair to those
people. 

873
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,300
Sorry new atheists, that's who I
thought of but it was not 

874
00:48:16,300 --> 00:48:17,800
someone like you and it was not 
a woman. 

875
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,900
No. 
Yeah, because if you have a 

876
00:48:19,908 --> 00:48:24,100
contrarian opinion, then you're 
just like crazy or ignorable if 

877
00:48:24,100 --> 00:48:26,600
you're a woman. 
But if you're a dude, it's like,

878
00:48:26,900 --> 00:48:32,200
oh, you're so edgy. 
Yeah. 

879
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,300
I might have been a miniature 
rant but I think that, you know,

880
00:48:35,300 --> 00:48:37,900
the I mean these platforms 
reward different person. 

881
00:48:38,100 --> 00:48:40,700
He's right? 
And if you have to like have a 

882
00:48:40,700 --> 00:48:43,400
certain personality to succeed 
at them. 

883
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,400
Yeah, I think about that, 
sometimes too were people who do

884
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,500
get really angry on to even if 
it's Justified, sometimes I get 

885
00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:53,700
a little turned off by it 
because done in the wrong sort 

886
00:48:53,700 --> 00:48:57,400
of spirit and I end up in these 
weird epicycles of 

887
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,700
second-guessing myself. 
Yeah, I mean, I just basically 

888
00:49:00,700 --> 00:49:04,200
try to avoid it but in terms of 
your question about like, what 

889
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,800
platform would incentivize 
better things you mentioned? 

890
00:49:08,100 --> 00:49:11,600
Reddit, I think before the show,
and, I mean, that that has a 

891
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,500
mechanism at least for like 
people saying, what's good, 

892
00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:19,400
right? 
Yes, somewhat of an improvement.

893
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,300
Yeah, you so much is B in the 
inherent, in the design of like 

894
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:27,300
the code, right? 
Yeah, I think maybe it's the 

895
00:49:27,300 --> 00:49:30,300
length, the Twitter being 
Kapoor, you have to read like 

896
00:49:30,300 --> 00:49:33,400
unfurling threads if it gets 
really detailed. 

897
00:49:33,500 --> 00:49:37,100
But I remember reading read 
this, I just feed me personally,

898
00:49:37,100 --> 00:49:39,500
but reading read it and see I'm 
going to wrote a very fair 

899
00:49:39,500 --> 00:49:43,100
critique of something that was 
often in great detail, I would 

900
00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:45,300
say like cool. 
You can have an upvote. 

901
00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:48,400
That's really cool. 
But then there's also various 

902
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,900
parts of credit that are subject
to extreme group think and even 

903
00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:54,500
and I've seen some post, I have 
gotten like some post. 

904
00:49:54,500 --> 00:49:57,600
You look at you can sort by the 
top voted or you can sort by 

905
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,000
controversial and some posts, 
the comments that are 

906
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,900
controversial to have like a 
mixed up and down votes. 

907
00:50:04,100 --> 00:50:06,600
Those are like the ones closest 
to the truth but because they 

908
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:07,900
didn't conform to the 
ideological. 

909
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,100
Standards of the subreddit just 
got downloaded to Oblivion. 

910
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,700
So yes, the design matters. 
But it isn't that right? 

911
00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:17,400
It is some sort of paradise. 
There's as much of this jerky 

912
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,900
Behavior as anywhere else. 
How much of that is design 

913
00:50:20,900 --> 00:50:24,000
versus how much of it is that 
humans like splitting into 

914
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:29,200
groups and fighting which I 
think is something that, like I 

915
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,300
said this on the show like 10 
times at least but like, that's 

916
00:50:31,300 --> 00:50:33,400
one of our favorite things to do
as a species. 

917
00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:36,800
We like like cutting into groups
and yelling at each other and 

918
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,400
fighting each other. 
So I think we might just find 

919
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,300
ways to do that almost no matter
what. 

920
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:46,800
I hope not, that's depressing. 
But yeah, yeah, but wait, maybe 

921
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,200
we can use it productively. 
You know, I was thinking about 

922
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,500
the group think and researching 
different climate change 

923
00:50:53,500 --> 00:50:56,500
approaches, right? 
I mean you could have a research

924
00:50:56,500 --> 00:51:00,300
program that What's called the 
red team, blue team approach, 

925
00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:04,900
where each team really goes for 
poking holes in the other side 

926
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,900
of the science and the design 
and so forth. 

927
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,300
And then that's like a 
safeguard, right? 

928
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,500
So I think it's, it's a human 
tendency but it can be used 

929
00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:19,700
productively if we realize we 
have that tendency and like work

930
00:51:19,700 --> 00:51:25,000
with it again. 
Yeah, yeah, I hope so. 

931
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,900
I thought there's some new 
platform by didn't really read 

932
00:51:26,900 --> 00:51:29,000
about it was called something 
called persuasion. 

933
00:51:29,100 --> 00:51:31,600
Did you see that? 
No, I didn't. 

934
00:51:31,700 --> 00:51:35,700
I saw some, some big people were
on their Board of advisors, but 

935
00:51:35,700 --> 00:51:38,900
I didn't really look into it, 
but I wonder, I hope someone 

936
00:51:38,900 --> 00:51:44,100
figures out how to get us to 
talk to one another sometimes I 

937
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:48,300
think people they look back at 
the eras when there was like 

938
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:51,900
three channels and people all 
consuming this ain't ya. 

939
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,500
You know, everyone watched 
Walter Cronkite for Edward 

940
00:51:55,500 --> 00:51:59,400
Murrow or whatnot and we all 
certainly agreed on the 

941
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,100
fundamentals of society and how 
much of that is whitewashing of 

942
00:52:02,100 --> 00:52:04,100
History. 
Like did the people actually 

943
00:52:04,100 --> 00:52:06,200
agree with each other more in 
the 50s? 

944
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,600
Like we had a Red Scare. 
There is Eisenhower era, which 

945
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,300
at least had that veneer of 
stability and Suburban Comfort, 

946
00:52:13,300 --> 00:52:17,300
Leave it to Beaver, but I think 
that's sort of in imagining. 

947
00:52:17,300 --> 00:52:19,600
I don't know that. 
That's actually how that era 

948
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,400
really was. 
So did we actually agree with 

949
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,300
each other more back? 
Then, do you have any idea? 

950
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,000
You know, I think there's, you 
know, empirical studies of this 

951
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,700
did I haven't read. 
I think that we should probably 

952
00:52:30,700 --> 00:52:34,500
be looking for words, not back 
because all the problems is that

953
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:39,100
system have been documented to 
that, that As mass media. 

954
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:44,700
Yeah, yeah, fair enough. 
Allegedly a bonus episode turned

955
00:52:44,700 --> 00:52:48,200
into quite a long one and we 
ended up talking about all sorts

956
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,400
of fun things. 
Okay. 

957
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:56,000
How about I wrap my that's me. 
If I want to listen back to and 

958
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,000
trying to wrap my head around 
but a lot of fun to have you 

959
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:00,800
here. 
Holly thanks for being on. 

960
00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:02,700
Yeah. 
Thank you. 

961
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,000
And then also if you're 
listening you should read 

962
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:11,100
Holly's book after Nearing, 
because it is a great read. 

963
00:53:11,100 --> 00:53:14,400
We've also done a previous 
episode with Holly dug into all 

964
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,600
those details, which is a 
really, really cool show. 

965
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,000
Actually, is there anything else
going to plug? 

966
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,500
I guess you're on Twitter, your 
Twitter handle is in the show 

967
00:53:23,500 --> 00:53:26,700
notes to, is there anything else
you'd like to point people to? 

968
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:31,800
Yeah, I mean, I want to point 
people to the red Nations, red 

969
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,500
deal, especially part 3. 
He loved our planet. 

970
00:53:35,500 --> 00:53:37,800
I think that that's a good 
starting point. 

971
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,500
Some of the things we kicked off
this episode with. 

972
00:53:41,500 --> 00:53:42,000
Yeah. 
Right. 

973
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,700
I need to just read that in its 
entirety and also just do more 

974
00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:50,500
shows of that ilk because yeah 
we really should and apologies 

975
00:53:50,500 --> 00:53:53,100
if you're listening or saying 
how come you never cover this? 

976
00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:56,100
That's that's my fault. 
And I would like to let me do 

977
00:53:56,100 --> 00:53:57,700
that. 
So stay tuned. 

978
00:53:57,700 --> 00:54:00,200
If you have any good show ideas 
or topics that we haven't 

979
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,100
covered, you can always reach 
out to podcast singular. 

980
00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:07,800
Pod, Cas, T at nor e.com. 
And let me know. 

981
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,500
Let me know what you'd like to 
hear that you haven't gotten so 

982
00:54:10,500 --> 00:54:12,300
far from the show. 
Yeah. 

983
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,400
Holly I'm putting a pin in it. 
This is the end. 

984
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,200
You can look at Ya. 
Thank you. 

985
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,300
Thank you. 
If you like the show, please 

986
00:54:19,300 --> 00:54:22,000
written review us on iTunes up a
podcast Stitcher, and thank you 

987
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:29,100
so much for listening. 
Thank you so much for listening.

988
00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:31,400
If you like the show, please 
rate and review it in apple 

989
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,700
podcast and or Stitcher. 
It really helps us a lot to get 

990
00:54:34,700 --> 00:54:36,400
this content to a wider 
audience. 

991
00:54:36,500 --> 00:54:39,100
If you think what we're doing 
is, Oh interesting fun. 

992
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,300
Hopefully all three. 
We certainly appreciate your 

993
00:54:41,300 --> 00:54:43,600
rating and review. 
You can keep up with Nori at nor

994
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,200
e.com where there is a 
newsletter that's nor u.com 

995
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,800
slash subscribe. 
There's podcast there's a whole 

996
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,500
bunch else or you can send us an
email at podcast at nor e.com. 

997
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:56,600
We are also now on patreon at 
patreon.com slash Nori podcasts,

998
00:54:56,700 --> 00:54:59,600
if you'd like more content 
engagement and community and 

999
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,300
thank you so much for your 
support