1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:05,900 You're listening to the reversing climate change podcast 2 00:00:05,900 --> 00:00:08,900 by Nori. The world's first carbon removal 3 00:00:08,900 --> 00:00:12,700 Marketplace, here are your hosts, Ross, Kenyon and 4 00:00:12,700 --> 00:00:18,000 Christoph jospeh, say hello and welcome to the reversing climate 5 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,600 change podcast with Nori. I'm Ross Canyon here with Chris, 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,200 Bosh pay, and Paul gamble. We are in New York City. 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,700 Right now. We're in our Airbnb in Brooklyn. 8 00:00:26,700 --> 00:00:29,900 We are happy to be here. We have seemingly nothing. 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,600 But meetings running around the city the entire time Kristoff. 10 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:35,800 Are you happy to be back in your in your Homeland? 11 00:00:36,100 --> 00:00:38,700 I am. But I think I no longer feel 12 00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:41,000 like a New Yorker. I feel like an ex-new Yorker. 13 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,900 I jaywalked this morning on the way, to the bodega, it felt 14 00:00:43,900 --> 00:00:46,200 amazing. No one looked no one judged, 15 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,200 they judge and Seattle, do they? I've never never noticed. 16 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,700 They had a judge, a judge really hard and in New York, it's 17 00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:54,800 expected to jaywalk. We judge you especially hard for 18 00:00:54,900 --> 00:00:56,400 running. Stop signs on your bike. 19 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,100 Yeah, that's just in my blood. I have seen people in It's 20 00:01:00,100 --> 00:01:02,900 always in Midtown where in the tourists come but I see people 21 00:01:03,300 --> 00:01:05,900 will walk in front of cabs and the Cavs will keep going just 22 00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:08,900 lay on the horn. Be like this is your choice. 23 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,000 Do you want to die or no? Yeah well okay let's get going. 24 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,200 I'm really excited to have our guest today. 25 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,700 It is another validation of just how amazing the connection 26 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:22,400 economy is like people are out there wanting to make kaname. 27 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,900 You do a Ted Talk on that. Someone else can it's just about 28 00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:28,800 like people are out there wanting to make the world a 29 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:30,700 better place wanting to Know about each other. 30 00:01:30,700 --> 00:01:34,500 And then once they do the sort of flash of, hey, let's get 31 00:01:34,500 --> 00:01:36,400 things done. As quickly as possible. 32 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,000 Just gets that much stronger. And I forget how I'd seen this 33 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,000 one woman's profile. Her name is Maggie. 34 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,100 Hannah, that's not our guest, but she had something that. 35 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,200 Well, so, first of all, she was saying, really smart things 36 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,800 about sustainability and energy. I'm said only add people on 37 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,300 LinkedIn who give specific reasons as to why they should 38 00:01:55,300 --> 00:01:57,700 add me. And I looked at her profile, and 39 00:01:57,700 --> 00:02:00,100 I just gave her a number of reasons and Maggie and I They 40 00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:03,600 hit it off and then Maggie joined something called the 41 00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:06,900 future fit foundation. And there was a presentation 42 00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:10,900 from John elkington and Lorraine Smith about volans and various 43 00:02:10,900 --> 00:02:13,700 elements of sustainability. And this is the group that 44 00:02:13,700 --> 00:02:15,600 they're not the cookie cutter sustainability. 45 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,200 There are thinking on the edge and looking at where the world 46 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,000 is going. You know, very much the Wayne 47 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,700 Gretzky skate to where the puck is not where, or skate to where 48 00:02:24,700 --> 00:02:27,000 the puck is going not to where the puck is, right? 49 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,600 And so Maggie connected us to Lorraine and we're just sort of 50 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,900 reminiscing, both Lorraine and I were getting chills on that call 51 00:02:33,900 --> 00:02:36,800 because we were realizing so many of the connections. 52 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,800 And so of the many hats that Lorraine. 53 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,400 Where's as an independent consultant, one of them is 54 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,100 volans. I'm sure we'll learn about a 55 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:45,800 number of the other hats as well. 56 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,900 Lorraine is also a podcast listener. 57 00:02:47,900 --> 00:02:51,400 So again, she knows what she's getting into do free to listen 58 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,400 more flattery on us, it's Malcolm. 59 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:55,200 Yeah, that's got it in my Hopper here. 60 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,000 We don't invite people who would disagree with us. 61 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,000 Kidding. Without any further Ado, 62 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,800 Lorraine you are an amazing person, I think. 63 00:03:04,900 --> 00:03:08,300 And I think you also have a fascinating story, and so we 64 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:11,600 love for you to start with telling your story. 65 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,200 Why? Why is the sustainability and 66 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:15,700 working on reversing climate change? 67 00:03:15,700 --> 00:03:17,600 Something that you care so deeply about? 68 00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:20,200 Wow. Well, thank you, and it's really 69 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,400 fun to be here. It's actually more fun. 70 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,800 I think to just keep listening to your podcast, but I'll try to 71 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,300 contribute to the fund. I'm delighted to be here and my 72 00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:31,700 story probably has to Many twists and turns to make any 73 00:03:31,700 --> 00:03:35,200 sense of in a brief podcast, but I'll cherry pick a couple spots. 74 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,300 And I've heard a lot of your guests, talk about their 75 00:03:38,300 --> 00:03:41,400 different Pathways into the sustainability conversation, the 76 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,900 regenerative agriculture conversation, Etc. 77 00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:46,300 And I think one of the things I love most about that, is that 78 00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:48,100 there are just infinite doorways. 79 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,600 So 0.2 Doors, number one, and two, and leave the, the infinite 80 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,000 ones for future conversations. I think the first one really 81 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,800 happened in a recess playground fight in grade. 82 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,300 When I was probably about seven or two of my friends at the 83 00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:05,700 time, were debating religion of all things. 84 00:04:05,900 --> 00:04:08,500 And one was from a Catholic Family and the other was from a 85 00:04:08,508 --> 00:04:10,500 Protestant family. And they were arguing about 86 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:14,300 which one had figured God out. And I was raised as a religious 87 00:04:14,300 --> 00:04:17,300 mutt, no access to any one pathway or the other. 88 00:04:17,700 --> 00:04:20,800 And I remember later that night thinking about the fight and 89 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,900 thinking, you know, that didn't make a lot of sense to me 90 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:27,200 because everything we need, we can see when we look sideways 91 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:30,800 because we can see all the forests and the Gardens and the 92 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,400 flowers and the people and I was just totally puzzled by this 93 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,300 argument about who had figured God out better. 94 00:04:37,900 --> 00:04:40,300 So that was probably the beginning of my thinking about 95 00:04:40,300 --> 00:04:43,000 how we interpret ourselves within the wider world. 96 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:44,900 And what Nature has to do with it? 97 00:04:45,100 --> 00:04:48,000 This is clearly in Canada. Yes, it was. 98 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,800 I did grow up in Toronto, actually has quite a city mouse, 99 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,500 although also lots of access to, to Nature partly because Toronto 100 00:04:54,500 --> 00:04:57,200 is built on three beautiful River beds. 101 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,700 There are three rivers that run through Toronto and I played a 102 00:04:59,707 --> 00:05:01,300 lot. The Ravines probably more than 103 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,800 would be deemed safe today, but I also spent a lot of time in 104 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,900 farmland and in Forest land in Northern Ontario but fast 105 00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:12,200 forward to around the year 2000. Before I knew what 106 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,100 sustainability was or corporate responsibility or all of the 107 00:05:15,100 --> 00:05:19,100 synonyms we throw around. I found myself working in a 108 00:05:19,108 --> 00:05:22,900 financial services Institute I was in this episode of trying to 109 00:05:22,907 --> 00:05:26,500 have a proper job and be a normal person and I remember the 110 00:05:26,500 --> 00:05:30,000 themes I talked about at the time where greed and vanity T. 111 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,700 It was like, why don't I just try those and see what they're 112 00:05:31,700 --> 00:05:34,200 like, because they seem to be kind of normal and people seem 113 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,900 to be thriving with those. So I'll check it out as one does 114 00:05:36,900 --> 00:05:39,100 in New York City, right? At the time, I was still in 115 00:05:39,100 --> 00:05:42,200 Toronto and a number of my friends, wonderful, people, whom 116 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,200 I respect earlier, lawyers, Bankers, you know, leading those 117 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,400 normal lives and so I sort of got recruited into a financial 118 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,100 services role. Lots of things I could say about 119 00:05:53,100 --> 00:05:56,300 that role but one of the things I recall very distinctly, it was 120 00:05:56,300 --> 00:05:58,100 being in a meeting. This was in a company that 121 00:05:58,100 --> 00:05:59,700 although it's Canadian, it's bread and butter. 122 00:05:59,900 --> 00:06:03,200 The 401K industry in the US, which is essentially retirement 123 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,900 savings. Maple syrup portfolios, right? 124 00:06:05,900 --> 00:06:08,700 Yes, that's right. It was almost 90% invested in 125 00:06:08,700 --> 00:06:11,400 maple syrup and then a few other things like hedge funds and 126 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,800 other financial instruments. And one of the meetings that we 127 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,600 had my role was to bridge between the it group and the 128 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,300 Marketing Group, of course, the Marketing Group wants to say, 129 00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:23,400 invest more money and the IT group needed to figure out how 130 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,500 to do that legally and manage, all their fiduciary 131 00:06:25,500 --> 00:06:28,400 responsibilities. And I had a kind of translator 132 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:33,000 role, which is something I I find myself in a lot and I asked 133 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,200 in this group of about 15 people a few vp's from different parts 134 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,300 of the business and some of the coders and some of the 135 00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:41,300 marketers, why don't we include in our messaging, you know, 136 00:06:41,300 --> 00:06:44,600 along with showing older people in hammocks and sailing and 137 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:46,000 holding their grandchildren's hands? 138 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,700 Why don't we include in the messaging information about what 139 00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:51,300 the money is doing? Well, it's invested over these 140 00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:54,300 20, 30 years and everybody turned and looked at me and 141 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:57,000 said, who cares how the money is invested. 142 00:06:57,100 --> 00:06:59,100 It's just that they have money at the end of the day when they 143 00:06:59,100 --> 00:07:01,500 retire. And I remember a penny sort of 144 00:07:01,500 --> 00:07:04,100 dropped for me, really? That's, that's how Global 145 00:07:04,100 --> 00:07:06,300 investing Works. Who cares how the money is 146 00:07:06,300 --> 00:07:08,200 invested and whether or not it's creating value. 147 00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:14,400 So, I ran away for three months and traveled across Canada, and 148 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,200 I basically put my name on to what was then a bulletin board 149 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,800 on the world wide web through my spinning and weaving and textile 150 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,900 Artisan group to see if any Farmers needed volunteers on 151 00:07:23,900 --> 00:07:26,500 their firms. And I was handed from Farm to 152 00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:30,500 farm Heritage breeders of this and that, and And different 153 00:07:30,500 --> 00:07:34,400 agricultural fairs and over wolves to spin either wolves, 154 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,900 sheep's wool, mohair rabbit. Some were growing flax all kinds 155 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:42,100 of good stuff. So I learned a lot about farming 156 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:45,900 about life about people about women entrepreneurs. 157 00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:48,600 And when I came back to Toronto, a friend of mine called me and 158 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,100 was like, have you spent all your money yet? 159 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:52,600 You need a proper job and the answer was yes, and yes. 160 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,900 And so I got hired on to work at Canadian business for social 161 00:07:55,900 --> 00:07:59,200 responsibility. That was 2004 fast forward to 162 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:00,700 today. I'm In that field. 163 00:08:00,700 --> 00:08:03,500 I'm not a board member of CBS are, and I'm making trouble in a 164 00:08:03,508 --> 00:08:06,700 few related ways. That's amazing. 165 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,800 What a great story. You definitely fit in around 166 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,900 here. We all sort of have a weird 167 00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:13,800 paths that led us here and that's part of what makes this 168 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,600 space Dynamic and fun. I'm curious. 169 00:08:16,700 --> 00:08:18,300 How do you make trouble these days living? 170 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,600 Yeah, I can actually organize it into two neat categories but 171 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,600 they interact with one another quite a bit. 172 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:30,600 I say in in simple terms I write and I lend a hand So I write a 173 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,500 blog that's on my website and then I also write content, I 174 00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:37,400 contribute to reports some of which I've co-authored with John 175 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,299 elkington and his team that explore the themes related to a 176 00:08:42,299 --> 00:08:44,500 regenerative economy and of course regenerative. 177 00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:49,300 Agriculture sits very happily in that space so that writing takes 178 00:08:49,300 --> 00:08:51,500 a number of different forms. I'm also working on my first 179 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:55,000 nonfiction book that explores the relationship between trees 180 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,600 and people, and that writing is something, I've been exploring 181 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,700 for very, very long time. Long before I knew About this 182 00:09:00,700 --> 00:09:03,800 form of making trouble. And the lending a hand part is I 183 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,800 contribute to a number of different teams, so volans and 184 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,700 John, elkington's team based in London, is a group that I spend 185 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:13,300 a lot of time working with I think of them as thought 186 00:09:13,300 --> 00:09:16,900 partners and and instigators and also contribute on a couple 187 00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:19,400 other teams or directly to clients. 188 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,600 So one quite tied to this Agriculture and soil. 189 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,000 Carbon conversation, I sit on the sustainability Advisory 190 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,200 Board of a large Forest Products company based in Brazil, called 191 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,700 FIB idea, Yeah. And that would be an example of 192 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:34,200 me. Sort of lending a hand to an 193 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,900 executive team to think about how they can contribute to the 194 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:39,400 sustainable economy of the future. 195 00:09:39,900 --> 00:09:41,800 It's quite a story. You have a hard time coming up 196 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,200 against John elkington though, whose story began? 197 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,300 Well, start with me, looking at thousands of eels, so one of 198 00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:52,500 the, the greatest Intrigue comments, there have been 199 00:09:52,500 --> 00:09:55,700 dropped on the show. I want to hear about this book. 200 00:09:55,700 --> 00:09:58,100 What's what's relationship between humans and trees? 201 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,200 Oh gosh, Toria. I I've had the very good fortune 202 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,300 of living in a number of different places. 203 00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:09,200 Sometimes for work sometimes for school sometimes just because I 204 00:10:09,208 --> 00:10:11,800 had a really interesting conversation with a taxi driver 205 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,200 followed by another interesting conversation with another taxi 206 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:20,100 driver that made me spend some time in Ethiopia and so long ago 207 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:22,600 I lived in Brazil as a teenager and then I've gone back a fair 208 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,700 bit for work because I speak Portuguese. 209 00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:26,200 But you weren't were you in Sao Paulo. 210 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,900 I was just sort of the American school there. 211 00:10:29,300 --> 00:10:31,300 No, I I was in a regular, Brazilian High School. 212 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,900 My dad went to that school and I was wondering. 213 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:35,200 Yeah, no. I was fully immersed in 214 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,200 Brazilian culture, which was an Incredible Gift in 1989. 215 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:41,900 The year of the first democratic election and of course, there's 216 00:10:41,900 --> 00:10:43,700 a very interesting election playing out right now. 217 00:10:43,700 --> 00:10:46,600 Maybe we maybe we have time for that here, maybe we don't. 218 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,700 But all to say, living in Brazil being from Canada and I've lived 219 00:10:49,700 --> 00:10:53,600 in many parts of Canada. I now live in New York, also 220 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,000 spent some time in East Africa and Ethiopia, and a couple 221 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,300 episodes I lived in Germany on Exchange as well, and And 222 00:11:00,900 --> 00:11:04,300 through these periods of my life of almost half a century. 223 00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:08,600 I've started to notice a pattern that trees and I think you could 224 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,500 insert nature, or biology for trees and all of these 225 00:11:12,500 --> 00:11:15,000 sentences, I'm about to say, but I'll use trees as a sort of 226 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:20,000 Handy visible proxy. They've been telling us things 227 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,300 forever and it's my interpretation. 228 00:11:23,300 --> 00:11:25,700 That we've just not been picking up the instruction manual. 229 00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:30,800 And the pattern I've noticed is one I've essentially Mass 230 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,600 deforestation, that's, that's not a news headline, but 231 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,500 deforestation in a way that's been very subtle and that we 232 00:11:37,500 --> 00:11:41,400 have the potential to hear and understand and come back to and 233 00:11:41,500 --> 00:11:44,500 basically heal. And I think if we listen to how 234 00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:46,900 nature is trying to get things done and get out of its way, 235 00:11:46,900 --> 00:11:49,800 will do well. So the book is really a series 236 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,000 of nonfiction stories. You could call them Memoir or 237 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,400 travel log, but each one is me. Finally, getting the message 238 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,100 from trees. I worked as a tree planter in 239 00:11:57,100 --> 00:11:59,600 Northern Ontario with to pay my way through a couple years. 240 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:01,700 School and tree planting. I don't know if you guys have 241 00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:05,200 ever met any tree planters but it's a pretty interesting summer 242 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,100 job, like The Lumberjack Song from Monty Python, Yes, except 243 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:11,400 all day. And when you're in the north, 244 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,900 the day is long. So it starts very early and it 245 00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:16,200 ends very late. So, you're working 14-hour days 246 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,100 planting a tree, every six feet, you're carrying those trees and 247 00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:21,700 you are physically creating the space, to put them in the ground 248 00:12:22,100 --> 00:12:24,500 day after day like that. Core is probably pretty strong, 249 00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:26,300 huh? Yeah, was what I was, you know, 250 00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:29,100 19, 20. So and then other experiences 251 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:32,000 with trees Working with Forest Products companies in Brazil and 252 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,500 listening to the dialogue between the FSC. 253 00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:38,100 The first Stewardship Council which seeks to certify Forest 254 00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:40,900 Products with wonderful, intentions around economic 255 00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:44,200 social and environmental measurable impacts. 256 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,200 And yet they face the same puzzles. 257 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,600 We do as humans trying to trying to function so much more. 258 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,700 I could say on the book but it's trying to explore our 259 00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:57,500 relationship with trees and come out with a more hopeful hopeful 260 00:12:57,500 --> 00:12:59,600 set of possibilities for how we can. 261 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,000 Within the wider world that's fairly characteristic of your 262 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,000 writing to I always whenever I see a new blog post of yours go 263 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,200 up, I always take a look. And that's one reason, I think 264 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,600 that you Inori have a connection is that we tend to look for the 265 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,300 Silver Lining or the opportunity there, which is not always that 266 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:19,200 common in the climate change space. 267 00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:22,900 I think it's definitely more helpful for generating action 268 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:26,000 and not feeling totally out of control and Powerless. 269 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,200 Yeah, I actually think that's a really important point and I 270 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,300 didn't Say in my answer to how I make trouble, but I'll add it in 271 00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:34,000 here. One of the things I try to 272 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,700 infuse in everything, I do, including my own conversations 273 00:13:37,700 --> 00:13:41,400 with myself, is this sense of where the mindset or the 274 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,900 Paradigm plays a role and, and I'm sure you and most of your 275 00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:48,000 listeners could probably run circles around my technical 276 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,400 knowledge of systems thinking, but I've spent a lot of time 277 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,000 reading and exploring the work of Donella Meadows. 278 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,100 I'll just insert. She was a hand spinner and, and 279 00:13:57,100 --> 00:13:59,500 produce a lot of her own yarn. Your little known fact that her 280 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,800 Will end and if you've ever spun yarn you'll quickly see that 281 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,100 it's a form of systems thinking and and integration that kind of 282 00:14:06,108 --> 00:14:07,900 manifests in a way that's kind of neat. 283 00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:11,800 But Ulta say I think that the notion of the Silver Lining 284 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:18,100 comes from a mindset or a paradigm approach where and I 285 00:14:18,108 --> 00:14:20,900 have some kind of awkward conversations with my so-called 286 00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:24,100 environmentalist peers where I get the intention you know we 287 00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:28,200 want I want a better world. I'm pretty sure everyone I meet 288 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,700 wants a better world. But what do we mean by that and 289 00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:35,500 people become so entrenched in their beliefs, that I think one 290 00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:38,200 of the reasons, the Goosebumps happened for me on that initial 291 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,600 coal with you Kristoff, and with John elkington was, that you are 292 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:48,100 providing at least pieces of the pathway that help those DieHard 293 00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:50,300 environmentalists and people who are really concerned about 294 00:14:50,300 --> 00:14:54,200 climate, broaden their mindset to recognize. 295 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,100 This is not an emissions reduction conversation. 296 00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:59,000 This is not an energy transition. 297 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,100 This is not a coal is evil conversation. 298 00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:07,000 This is a conversation about realigning, our industrial value 299 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,200 chains and our human interactions with a natural 300 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,500 process that has been underway and evolving for 3.8 billion 301 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:16,000 years, you articulate, it slightly differently. 302 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,400 I think in the Nori universe but you offer a financial mechanism 303 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,400 and a conversation that helps reorient that narrative. 304 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,500 So I think it's more than a silver lining. 305 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,800 I think it's a functional lining and and I'm kind of excited 306 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,300 about that. That's great. 307 00:15:31,300 --> 00:15:33,800 And thanks for all the nice things that were forcing you to 308 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,600 say about Nori's in the air. No, forcing whatsoever. 309 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:41,700 I was trying to think of a way to extend that metaphor, of 310 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:45,400 course, you know how we do it. I know, I think we found each 311 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,400 other in a metaphorical space, so I'm happy to keep playing 312 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:49,900 their. Yeah, well, it's kind of like 313 00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:54,400 we've got this lining around this small, little piece of yarn 314 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,200 or whatever, but we have to make it so much bigger and so much 315 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,600 more inclusive. I gotta teach you guys to spend. 316 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,100 Because then, you'll know where to go with those those metaphors 317 00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:05,400 when I was a kid. I remember doing the the latch 318 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,600 hook. Oh, nice bug hooking. 319 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,500 Yeah, remember, I don't think I did much beyond that, though. 320 00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:12,000 Do you do it with, like, the knitting? 321 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,800 But the needles. Well, I've got some knitting off 322 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,500 to the side there. We can check it out a little 323 00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:18,700 later. But knitting is essentially just 324 00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:21,400 creating a continuous. Not, if you take a look at the 325 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,000 spelling, you see, there's an interesting little clue 326 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,900 knitting. We let's go there some other 327 00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:29,500 time although I will say it's a physical manifestation. 328 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,600 Station of taking something that has no integrity and giving it 329 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,100 strength. So I'd like to go in a different 330 00:16:36,100 --> 00:16:39,000 direction other than knitting, but perhaps the weaving that you 331 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,000 do in the boardrooms is relevant here, you know, you're working 332 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,200 with companies sometimes which have been demonized. 333 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,000 You know, we'd look at deforestation is a major cause 334 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,500 for climate change and Forestry companies can be the quote, 335 00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:53,200 unquote bad guys, but they're not necessarily the bad guys per 336 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,700 se. And so, I'm curious the 337 00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:59,400 experience that you find when you're in boardrooms, and 338 00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:02,500 Innocent people who have always sort of seen the world in one 339 00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:05,500 way, just trying to squeeze them to see it in a slightly 340 00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:09,300 different way that might actually impact their bottom 341 00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:12,300 line and are beneficial way and most certainly impact the 342 00:17:12,308 --> 00:17:16,200 environmental bottom line. What do you see working most 343 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,099 effectively and what do you see not working? 344 00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:21,700 Yeah, that's a that's a really good bundle of questions and I'm 345 00:17:21,700 --> 00:17:25,099 going to I'm going to turn some of them around and I'm with 346 00:17:25,099 --> 00:17:27,700 respect, I'm going to challenge some of the mindset that brings 347 00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:31,600 those questions forward because I've I've had a lot of sort of 348 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,000 aha has going through my work over the years with Forest 349 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,500 Products companies. So where to start their first 350 00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:41,900 I'll just say it's my personal belief that I can't convince 351 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:44,900 anyone of anything so as soon as the word convinced is part of 352 00:17:44,908 --> 00:17:51,300 the project, I accept defeat and I stopped that pathway likewise. 353 00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:54,000 It's very difficult to convince me of something I've changed 354 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,100 things and I've spent a fair bit of time and done a bit of 355 00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:58,900 writing exploring, why have I change things? 356 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:02,100 But it's Pretty much never because somebody sat me down and 357 00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:05,900 convinced me. So when I am in the privileged 358 00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:10,700 position of being paid to share what I think with somebody who 359 00:18:10,700 --> 00:18:13,700 works internally at a company or a group of people or Executives 360 00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:19,100 or other stakeholders, I first try to understand what the 361 00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:22,300 current circumstances are. And so in the case of this 362 00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:25,500 company that I do a fair bit of work within and have known for a 363 00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:27,700 number of years, so hopefully I'm not telling Tales out of 364 00:18:27,700 --> 00:18:31,000 school and fibia is incredibly Transparent about what they do. 365 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:34,900 I think we quickly see that what the man on the street or even 366 00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:38,200 the deeply knowledgeable climate professionals that I spend time. 367 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaking with don't realize is a Forest Products Company, from 368 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,500 Brazil is not cutting rainforest. 369 00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:48,400 They're not deforesting, in fact, unlike a lot of parts of 370 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,700 the world, say Texas, no offense, Texas companies. 371 00:18:52,700 --> 00:18:56,400 In Brazil are required to protect almost a third of their 372 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,200 land as native Forest. Imagine telling a text Rancher, 373 00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:04,500 you need to put aside a third of your land for Native Forest. 374 00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:07,000 That would be a sort of non-starter conversation in 375 00:19:07,008 --> 00:19:08,700 Brazil. It is legally required and 376 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:12,400 upheld, and certainly upheld by publicly listed companies who 377 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,800 are, you know, carefully regulated and very public about 378 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,900 what they do. So to begin with few Bhatia and 379 00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:21,600 all of its Forest Products Company peers in Brazil are not 380 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,300 deforesting. It's just a basic reality. 381 00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:27,300 What are they doing? They're growing trees on 382 00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:29,400 plantations. So that is a mono speed. 383 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,100 These conversation it's a lot more similar to Soy production 384 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:35,800 or corn production. I call it slow growing corn. 385 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,400 These are there closer to agriculture companies then then 386 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,200 the Lumberjacks of yesterday. But they have a very interesting 387 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,500 conversation that that I think there's a future opportunity and 388 00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:49,800 this is where our conversations tend to hover. 389 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,600 It's why when they asked me to join their Advisory Board I said 390 00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:55,900 can I be me? You know, because I'm a bit 391 00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:59,200 weird and I'm I'm going to say some things that maybe don't 392 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:00,700 show up. In every conversation I'm going 393 00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:03,200 to talk about biomimicry. I'm going to talk about 394 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,500 regenerative agriculture. I'm going to talk about why 395 00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:10,200 creating shared value, doesn't mean giving permission to 396 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,400 communities to have rates. It means the knowledge is in 397 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,500 your communities. They know the forest, they know 398 00:20:15,500 --> 00:20:17,900 the soil. They know the hydraulic you know 399 00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:19,800 the hydrological Cycles better than anyone. 400 00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:23,100 That's where the value is. So it isn't about allowing them 401 00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:25,600 to function. It's about enabling them to 402 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,200 thrive and maybe you'll generate some value through that. 403 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:32,300 So I'm not Ali convincing anybody of anything but I am I 404 00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:35,800 may be a bit of a Spore based actor within a corporation where 405 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,800 I'm trying to sort of sneeze, a few spores on to people and some 406 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:45,300 worse than Kristoff. I like you guys some will take 407 00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:48,600 purchase and evolve. Some may just, you know, cause 408 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,800 infections and harm, but I do think it's important. 409 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,300 And I mean this With all sincerity and respect and 410 00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:57,600 challenging myself as well, that we check our assumptions at the 411 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,900 door that we let go of Zil Forest company deforestation. 412 00:21:01,900 --> 00:21:05,300 And we try to understand what is the status of deforestation in 413 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:08,600 Brazil right now and how does it relate to that of Indonesia, 414 00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:11,300 which is also globally relevant and very different. 415 00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:13,500 And by the way, how does that relate to Canada or the United 416 00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:17,000 States and the simplest pattern, which I learned in my travels, 417 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,200 in which I seek to express through some of my writing? 418 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,500 Is that the biggest difference is we just deforested a long 419 00:21:23,500 --> 00:21:25,800 time ago. So like we're sitting on one big 420 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,800 deforested patch right now and we don't call this 421 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,200 deforestation. Ian, but we're pretty quick too. 422 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:36,800 You know, retweet memes that trash a company tied to 423 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,000 deforestation their supply chain without understanding, you know, 424 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,700 the house you own that, you're generating personal Equity from 425 00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:45,400 that you're proud of and good for. 426 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,900 You is part of a deforestation supply chain but come on your 427 00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:54,300 ear shattering. My my sense of know that you're 428 00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:56,400 absolutely right. I looked at a picture the other 429 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,600 day of Seattle and 1880 and I saw The old growth trees. 430 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,400 Very few still standing there over 200 feet tall, but, you 431 00:22:04,408 --> 00:22:06,300 know, they're all gone, like, in Seattle. 432 00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:08,100 Proper in Seattle, proper, right? 433 00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:10,800 And it was quite interesting just to thank, yeah, we used to 434 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,000 have enormous forest in the Pacific Northwest and they're 435 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,300 all gone because we deforested and we built cities with them 436 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,200 that burned down and then we built them against. 437 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,000 Oh great more lumber right? And I don't I don't mean to 438 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,600 disparage progress or home ownership or Urban Development. 439 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,900 I mean since Plea to cast light on my understanding of reality. 440 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,300 And one of the other things I do in making trouble, in a lot of 441 00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:39,100 this has come from listening and learning to your guests and, and 442 00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:41,800 interacting with, I think people who are doing great things in 443 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,900 the regenerative egg space. And so, I bring this into my 444 00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:49,000 little spores sneezing events. We see, you know, even have a 445 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,000 metaphor to see the forest for the trees and that's a handy 446 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:54,200 Meme and we throw that around, but if we break that down a 447 00:22:54,208 --> 00:22:57,600 little bit, we see forests and within Forest, we see trees but 448 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,400 we can't see with our human eyes. 449 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,600 Is the soil microbiology, right? We know it's there. 450 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,500 You guys know it's there and a lot of your stakeholders are 451 00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:09,200 pretty solid on what goes on in soil, although it's an emerging 452 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,100 scientific space but most people have absolutely no idea the 453 00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:16,300 degree to which soil microbiology is what has 454 00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:20,500 essentially maintained our lives on Earth through time. 455 00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:24,700 And so we don't recognize what we've lost, you know, the Joni 456 00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:27,500 Mitchell fellow Canadian really just sums it all up. 457 00:23:27,500 --> 00:23:29,400 We don't know what We've Got Till It's Gone. 458 00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:32,600 And we're still trying to figure out that Big Yellow Taxi of our 459 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,100 lives. And we're running to keep up 460 00:23:35,100 --> 00:23:39,500 with the soil science and yet, we're bashing companies for 461 00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:41,700 deforesting. Not realizing we already did 462 00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:44,500 that, and we have a lot of healing and learning to do to 463 00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:47,500 bring that back. Yeah, I can see it being a bit 464 00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:50,800 of a problem to be the beneficiary of those past 465 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,200 actions but then also casting aspersions to others who are 466 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,400 trying to develop much less wealthy than the person 467 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,300 criticizing the probably Justifiably rubs you the wrong 468 00:24:01,300 --> 00:24:04,300 way. You're or I try not to judge 469 00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:06,300 because I'm the benefactor of that as well. 470 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,900 You know, I'm a middle class white lady from Canada living in 471 00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:12,500 a small, but perfectly comfortable apartment in New 472 00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:14,900 York City. I'm not suffering as a result of 473 00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:17,700 that. Deforestation, if I stand back a 474 00:24:17,708 --> 00:24:20,700 little bit further, I'd say, you know, in this, hopefully veers 475 00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:24,200 us into the Silver Lining. Well, maybe I'm not suffering 476 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:29,200 today and I'm, I have many great choices and I'm excited about my 477 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:30,900 life. Laughs and I feel very engaged. 478 00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:36,300 I'm aware that collectively. We have some work to do and I 479 00:24:36,300 --> 00:24:38,300 promise there's a silver lining at the end of the sentence but 480 00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:43,000 the not so Silver Lining is if we keep going where we're headed 481 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,300 will end up where we're headed, right? 482 00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:51,000 Like it's not pretty and it's I'd rather avoid catastrophe. 483 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,500 I'd rather avoid a mass human failing and some of the 484 00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:57,000 biological systems that will take down with us, and I think 485 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,400 we're perfectly capable. I think we have incredible 486 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:03,500 Knowledge and will and capacity. And so I'm excited about 487 00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:07,300 leveraging that it's less about being rubbed the wrong way and 488 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:11,500 more unawareness of, there's a way better way to be and I'd 489 00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:13,200 rather be that. Yeah. 490 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,600 Well what is that? What do we do? 491 00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:19,200 It's so tell me the answers. We invest in Nori tokens and we 492 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,800 amplify what we know. I mean Nature has given us an 493 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,200 incredible instruction book, right? 494 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,200 We've got those who understand far better than I am very much. 495 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,300 A lay person getting sneezed on on this. 496 00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:34,300 One, but we, we have the instructions for how networks 497 00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:39,400 work for how soil Dynamics are able to communicate. 498 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,400 We have so much information about how this works. 499 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,800 I think what you guys are doing is an example of sort of 500 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,500 imitating nature, right? You're, you're a piece of a 501 00:25:47,508 --> 00:25:50,600 network, you are or even multiple nodes of a network. 502 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,200 And so I think what we do is we amplify the pieces of the 503 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,700 network that work. And I mean, I love a Mighty Oak 504 00:25:56,700 --> 00:25:58,400 Tree. I love seeing old growth in the 505 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,000 rare instances where Get to see those big trees there. 506 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,500 Just staggeringly beautiful, but more and more lately. 507 00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:07,700 I'm like, okay, tree, you're pretty awesome. 508 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,400 But what's going on underneath? You is where the real party is. 509 00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:15,400 So I think it's how do we incentivize through financial 510 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,200 mechanisms and inspire people to understand that party 511 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,400 underneath? I think that's the path forward. 512 00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:24,700 I've heard people all described as the underground economy, I 513 00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:26,300 like, what is the party underneath? 514 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,300 Yeah, that's reaction is, that's for all the informations being 515 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,700 Transferred and the carbons being exchanged and they're 516 00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:34,500 talking to each other and it's really crazy to think about the 517 00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:38,400 web of interconnectivity and the way that the mycorrhizal fungi 518 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,500 or sort of Ross, you're learning all about this through. 519 00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:46,000 This is this make it like a tree mullet or it what its business 520 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,100 up top. But the party nice Apollo for 521 00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:51,400 the win. Yes, it does. 522 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,400 Well done, well we're sort of burying the lead a little bit. 523 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,700 I think there's an exciting announcement that I'd like to 524 00:26:56,700 --> 00:26:59,300 put on the air. You know, nor he has done. 525 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,400 Webinars on our own and that has had some success and we've 526 00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:08,300 shared some knowledge but I just got off the phone with one of 527 00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:12,300 your colleagues who gave me permission to say this so Nori 528 00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:16,200 and volans will be working together to help share knowledge 529 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,100 about much of what we're talking about in the new carbon economy 530 00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:23,500 in the drawdown carbon drawdown economy, and like how my all 531 00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:26,100 this work, and how can we educate and share knowledge. 532 00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:29,700 So that the world is even more interconnected and has the 533 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,500 agency to do something and really create change. 534 00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:38,200 So that makes me excited. I kind of want to put it back to 535 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,700 you in terms of your a changemaker whether you like it 536 00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:43,400 or not the rent, you're a troublemaker. 537 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,300 But you're really a change maker and you're totally right to call 538 00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:49,200 me out and say, no, it's not about convincing, it's about 539 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,500 guiding and in some way and so that said, we okay, we don't 540 00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:56,000 need to use the word convinced, but I'm furious. 541 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,700 What the rate of change is not happening. 542 00:27:57,700 --> 00:28:02,300 Quickly enough, we really need to The needle like now, how do 543 00:28:02,300 --> 00:28:05,300 we do it? Yeah I'm right there with you. 544 00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:08,000 You know I had a really heartwarming but also 545 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,700 challenging conversation was a good friend of mine. 546 00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:12,200 I don't know if you guys know Nick Parker who sort of the 547 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,700 grandfather of the cleantech movement based in Toronto. 548 00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:18,400 Toronto has like a weird Vortex of really neat folks doing 549 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,200 amazing stuff including Nick and he was asking me. 550 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:22,900 So what are you doing for a living these days? 551 00:28:22,900 --> 00:28:26,100 And the first thing that came to mind really unsought through was 552 00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:28,800 I worried and, you know, I didn't lead with that, when you 553 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,000 asked me what I do, But I feel like in a way I totally got it. 554 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,700 I've got that fire in my belly and and it's on a cellular 555 00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:38,900 level, right? Like, I feel like I this may 556 00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:43,900 sound drastic and irritating but I feel deeply concerned about 557 00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:49,900 where we are and how we shift. I do think it's worth as a sort 558 00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:54,400 of not just a coping mechanism, but a progress mechanism, it's 559 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,800 worth focusing on where knowledge is emerging that can 560 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,800 help. So for I mean, definitely, But 561 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,500 you guys are doing and and listening to you and following 562 00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:05,000 some of the trails you've pointed to has been helpful a 563 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,500 few come to mind. For example, you know, there's 564 00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:10,600 an amazing book called the soil will save us by an author named 565 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,100 Christian Olsen. I know that some of your people 566 00:29:13,100 --> 00:29:16,700 are familiar with her people and you know, that book puts in such 567 00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:20,400 accessible terms really basic soil science and why the the 568 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,200 sequestration of carbon in soil is a key piece of the solution 569 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,700 and I think of work by people like that. 570 00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:28,900 And I think that's that's part of where we need to go. 571 00:29:28,900 --> 00:29:31,100 We need it's Not sexy. It's not you know the greatest 572 00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:33,900 Ted Talk in the world. It's not, I don't know, I guess 573 00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:36,000 there's stuff on Netflix or whatever it may be. 574 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,400 It's not that and that's not how people want to spend their time 575 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,600 but if we're serious about getting where we'd rather be I 576 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,700 think we need to energize the stuff that's working and stop 577 00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:49,400 energizing the stuff that's not. I also think there's some hidden 578 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,200 Pathways like I think one of the fun things I remember about 579 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,100 field trips as a kid, you know, where he went on these need 580 00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:57,600 field trips, whatever. It was the greatest parts were 581 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:58,600 things. You didn't know, we're going to 582 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,700 happen and I feel like that's part of our path forward is like 583 00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:04,200 what, what am I not thinking of? So I'll give an example of 584 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,500 something. I wasn't thinking of that. 585 00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:08,000 Just fell into my lap and made me feel really encouraged. 586 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,300 I was in São, Paulo for the last two weeks, I was there for a 587 00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:12,500 committee meeting with food idea. 588 00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:15,000 I had a chance to present at the stock exchange, they're doing 589 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,600 some really interesting things. They have a carbon index, by the 590 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,900 way, we should put a link to that on your site. 591 00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:22,000 Really interesting conversations. 592 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,100 Leading conversations, that get missed, because they're in 593 00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:26,400 Portuguese. But then I had a chance to hang 594 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,300 around a little bit and catch up with a few other folks that I've 595 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:30,800 had the pleasure of getting to know. 596 00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:34,800 And then since I had some time, I went with some friends to a 597 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,100 musical performance at this really neat, theater, sort of 598 00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:40,100 Music Theater, quite a small venue. 599 00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:44,900 Maybe 100 people that was restored through a crowdfunding 600 00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:49,500 effort called Casa de Francesca and there was a cover-up, there 601 00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:53,200 was a band, not a cover band, a band, my Anna, the lead singer 602 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,500 happens to be the daughter-in-law of Gilberto Geo, 603 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,800 amazing voice kind of reminds me of Feist just absolutely 604 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,400 wonderful. And she was covering xuxa songs. 605 00:31:02,500 --> 00:31:05,500 I don't know if you guys know xuxa xuxa, it was a Megastar. 606 00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:08,700 When I lived in Brazil, in the late 80s, continue to be a 607 00:31:08,708 --> 00:31:12,600 Megastar sort of known for her cheerful singing and dancing and 608 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,600 engaging. Everyone kind of a Brazilian 609 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,800 thing hard to translate but just a Marvel of a human and in a way 610 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,100 I credit her with teaching me Portuguese because I watched The 611 00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:25,700 Shoe Show when I was there and when my Anna did these cover 612 00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:29,000 tunes of xuxa? I realized that along with being 613 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,800 liked Crazy kid shouldn't retro in a little bit wacky and over 614 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,000 there. The songs are about love and 615 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,000 about looking after each other and about wanting to live on 616 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,100 earth and making sure we get it right because xuxa the beginning 617 00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:44,300 of every show would arrive from another planet. 618 00:31:44,300 --> 00:31:46,800 So she arrives for this other planet but it's like you know 619 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,000 Earth is kind of awesome. I like it around here and we 620 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,500 should be good to each other. So what does that have to do 621 00:31:51,500 --> 00:31:54,100 with the path forward? I was I was reminded for the 622 00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:59,800 millionth time, the value of Art and creating things with Another 623 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,500 and in collaboration with people and sharing the beautiful parts 624 00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:07,900 of it and inspiring one another, to recognize the good parts that 625 00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:11,100 matter, and that wasn't just a sort of fun show. 626 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:12,600 Although it was fun. Like, you should have seen, 627 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,000 these were, you know, as I mentioned I'm almost a half a 628 00:32:15,008 --> 00:32:16,700 century old. Most of the people in the room 629 00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:19,800 were about my age. So these are like, you know, not 630 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,600 the Hipster crowd mostly men but lots of women as well. 631 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,200 And they were so into it. They look like five year olds, 632 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,700 there are bouncing up and down they were having such a good 633 00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:30,700 time singing. Singing songs about being good 634 00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:33,800 to one another. And this is at a time when I'll 635 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,900 just Veer into the dark side for a moment. 636 00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:39,000 This is at a time when in Brazil like in other parts of the 637 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,300 world, there are some really really - all this, a fascist, 638 00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:47,000 not okay. Forces getting a lot of air time 639 00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:50,900 and those run counter to what we're trying to do, right? 640 00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:54,700 Those run against being kind and inclusive. 641 00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:56,500 They run against what Nature has taught us. 642 00:32:56,500 --> 00:33:00,600 Nature has explained very well. That biodiversity Is resilience, 643 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,200 it is a form of efficiency. It is a form of a future 644 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,800 insurance policy. And so inching towards sameness 645 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,600 is a dangerous dangerous Prospect, that's not just a 646 00:33:10,608 --> 00:33:12,500 political point of view. It's what Nature has been 647 00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:16,000 building into her instruction manual for 3.8 billion years. 648 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,900 So hearing that from an unbelievably talented vocalist 649 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,800 wearing the kookiest outfit you've ever seen looking really 650 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,300 sexy and just having all these people bouncing up and down with 651 00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:30,800 Joy. It was a reminder that part of 652 00:33:30,808 --> 00:33:34,900 the path on this field. Trip of life isn't just climate 653 00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:38,600 science and policy. It's just reveling in what feels 654 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:43,000 good and right. I have a bumper sticker that I 655 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:48,000 bought on the lot at a fish show that says, save the Earth. 656 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,700 So we have someplace to Boogie nice. 657 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,700 Exactly. My Anna would be right there 658 00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:54,300 with you. I'll send you the link to her 659 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,800 parts of her shows just mind-bending and heartwarming. 660 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,400 I think that's part of the path. It really speaks to a lot of the 661 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,300 things that we think about the interconnectivity is sort of, 662 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:09,000 We're All in This Together. We have this moment to bend the 663 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:10,900 curve. I mean we're talking about 664 00:34:10,900 --> 00:34:14,000 reversing climate change which sort of look at it from a very 665 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,699 carbon Centric point of view and Nori stays laser-focused on the 666 00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:20,100 carbon removal but we know that's just one piece. 667 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,400 So I would be interested to sort of hear from you. 668 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,800 Learn to paint this back to how you see carbon fitting into the 669 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,100 broader sustainability. Three and specifically. 670 00:34:31,100 --> 00:34:34,300 Because we know Nori is just one piece of it and obviously, we're 671 00:34:34,300 --> 00:34:36,800 not hubristic enough to say we're reversing climate change 672 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,900 alone. No, we're just trying to push 673 00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:41,000 along in this direction by starting a new market. 674 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,400 So how do you see kind of the whole carbon story fitting 675 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,300 together? Yeah, I love that question and I 676 00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:50,100 think it actually underscores some of where the conversations 677 00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:52,300 will go in those webinars that you reference with John 678 00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:54,800 elkington and team. So I'm really excited that 679 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,000 that's going to unfold. I think there's a few ways. 680 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,200 One is in that broader narrative For Paradigm and I think you do 681 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,500 contribute greatly to that which is helping companies. 682 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,900 So let's let's talk about corporate sustainability for a 683 00:35:06,908 --> 00:35:10,000 moment which is really where a lot of my focus has been. 684 00:35:10,500 --> 00:35:13,200 It's helping companies, recognize that as they do what 685 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,100 they do, which is develop and Implement strategies, 686 00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:18,700 sustainability, Innovation, investment. 687 00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:22,200 All the things they do, is they go but their strategic ways that 688 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,500 they shift their understanding and therefore, their planning 689 00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:30,000 and implementation of their plans to go Well, beyond 690 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,100 emissions reduction because what we've noticed so far is that 691 00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:37,800 companies have really focused on emissions reduction and energy, 692 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,200 renewable energy, that's being where they go. 693 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,700 So, I think the opportunity here is to help every company across 694 00:35:44,700 --> 00:35:47,200 any value chain. See that? 695 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:48,800 This is a story, they are part of. 696 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,000 Obviously you guys are really switched on to Agriculture and 697 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,400 other points of value chains that touch the soil but there's 698 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,100 more I'll give a super quick example that's been on my mind 699 00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:01,100 lately where we Take for example Automotive. 700 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:02,800 They've been thinking about climate for a while. 701 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,000 They've been looking at light waiting and getting Energy 702 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,000 Efficiency into their fuel and approach to moving cars forward, 703 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,000 that's great and they need to do more of that and, you know, 704 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,500 thank you for doing that. But what if we looked at how the 705 00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:17,400 cars were actually made and looked at the materials that go 706 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,400 into the interior of a car, we've got interface, making 707 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,200 climate positive, carpet tiles. What if some of those climate 708 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,500 positive carpet components were on the interior of a car? 709 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,900 We've got kovas. Tro making Industrial Foams and 710 00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:34,100 other Plastics and Coatings using CO2 as a feedstock. 711 00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:36,300 What if some of those are in the interior of the car, it starts 712 00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:38,200 to get more interesting. But even then you're still just 713 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:39,500 looking at a piece of the puzzle. 714 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:41,200 What if we go to the wider system? 715 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,600 And we say, we know that vehicle electrification is happening. 716 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,700 It's happening, more or less in some regions. 717 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,700 What if we go to a region? Where the grid is, still not 718 00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:52,600 very renewable. So you've got an electric 719 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,000 vehicle, you plug it in. And this is what a lot of people 720 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,500 argue against electrification rate, but they still burn coal 721 00:36:57,500 --> 00:36:59,100 here. Okay, no problem, plug your car 722 00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:02,200 in your Urging, or plug the current, it might not be yours, 723 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,300 you're sharing it. And now that electricity is 724 00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:09,700 drawn on a grid that is not renewable, but the 10 carbon X 725 00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:12,900 prize finalists, all of which are making products across 726 00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:15,900 different value chains, not all in energy in many, many value 727 00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:21,100 chains are using CO2 as feedstock for their products so 728 00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:25,800 that non-renewable, whether it's coal or Gas Energy Generation. 729 00:37:26,100 --> 00:37:28,400 Well that's what we'd like to transition off of in the 730 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,300 long-term we know, The best-case energy scenarios include burning 731 00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:35,900 fossil fuels into the future at least a couple decades out. 732 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,500 So as we're doing that, were capturing that CO2 as feedstock. 733 00:37:39,900 --> 00:37:43,400 So you plug in your EV, you capture that CO2 that goes into 734 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,300 totally other value chains that have nothing to do with the car 735 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,400 that you Plugged In which by the way is including climate 736 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,900 positive, interior materials and very efficient. 737 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,900 I think those kinds of system shifts that touch multiple 738 00:37:56,900 --> 00:37:59,300 value, chains that draw an emergent. 739 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,200 He's that rethink how we understood that waste CO2, that 740 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,500 recognize the opportunities in many, many different ways and by 741 00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:12,200 the way have the potential to be highly commercially viable. 742 00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:15,900 I think that's how we shift and stop talking about emissions 743 00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:19,600 reduction only within the corporate strategy context. 744 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,600 Yeah the Nori term around here that you've heard a million 745 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,900 times by now is more shots on goal. 746 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,000 I think it's important that we have lots of different things 747 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,400 going on. We Get hung up sometimes with 748 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,800 monetizing ecosystem Services. Sometimes, if you isolate one 749 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,600 variable, in this complex system, you could overdo it too 750 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,100 much and we like carbon removal because it is relatively simple. 751 00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:45,200 But if you think about the entire climate space and 752 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,600 activism and economics, that make it up. 753 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,600 It's also very complex ecosystem. 754 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,200 And we do need all these different projects going on. 755 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,000 There's also a line, I think, John Stuart Mill, has it in on 756 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,300 Liberty, he says something like there's always a party of order 757 00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:00,900 and a party of Press. And if you only have one of 758 00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:03,800 them, they would just run. Like, it would either be pure 759 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,700 status quo or be like total, Jacobin French Revolution style, 760 00:39:08,700 --> 00:39:10,700 do everything from scratch, you need. 761 00:39:10,700 --> 00:39:13,600 You need both of them in relationship to temper the worst 762 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,500 elements of the other. So even sometimes, if we're for 763 00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:19,700 criticizing people that we don't necessarily like their approach 764 00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:23,400 to climate change, and in a weird way, I'm almost grateful 765 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,000 that they exist. No matter what just for the 766 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,900 example, feel free that was a tenuous one. 767 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,100 But I wonder if you agree that was beautiful Ross. 768 00:39:32,100 --> 00:39:34,500 And I think Lorraine if you want to respond. 769 00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:37,600 Yeah. You know you've touched on the 770 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,000 language point and in interesting ways, I know we 771 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,500 don't have all the time in the world so I'll try to bundle this 772 00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:46,600 one and put a bow on it. You referenced an author whose 773 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,200 work. I'm not familiar with talking 774 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,600 about order and progress and that is eerily relevant to the 775 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,800 conversation today. Those two words translated in. 776 00:39:55,808 --> 00:40:00,800 Portuguese are the current official flag of Zillow or Demi 777 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,000 Progressive exactly and if you're bored and looking for 778 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,200 reading my most recent blog post redrew, the Brazilian flag and 779 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,300 what I did was I've been having a lot of fun with Google 780 00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:11,700 translate. It's really fun. 781 00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:13,600 You can put a word in and translate it but then you can 782 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,600 see alternative translations and some of them are just helpful 783 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,200 synonyms and some of them Verge on absurd, that's a whole other 784 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,700 fun conversation. But if you just take some time 785 00:40:21,700 --> 00:40:24,800 and think of a synonym for order, one of them is sequence. 786 00:40:25,300 --> 00:40:29,100 And another synonym for progress is evolution. 787 00:40:29,300 --> 00:40:32,000 And so I redrew the flag to think about sequence and 788 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,300 evolution which to me is just a reinterpretation of what nature 789 00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:38,400 is doing all the time. It's sequencing our Evolution, 790 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,600 we may or may not understand it. We may or may not like it or 791 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,300 benefit from it. I just throw that out there 792 00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:44,900 because it's quite interesting you referenced order and 793 00:40:44,900 --> 00:40:47,900 progress. But more importantly, I believe 794 00:40:47,900 --> 00:40:50,600 language is important. I think there's a reason to 795 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,700 explore and test. Why different terms work or how 796 00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:57,000 to improve a narrative with better language, the folks at 797 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,600 Carbon X prize released a really interesting, Port a report and 798 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,600 during climate week the other day around the language of 799 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,400 carbon and exploring, you know, Carbon removal versus circular 800 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,200 carbon and cetera. So good things to hone in on 801 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,600 there. But two points, I want to make 802 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,100 on this that I remind myself and I try to do so respectfully. 803 00:41:14,100 --> 00:41:17,400 When I hear people demanding a certain form of language which 804 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,900 comes up more than I would like in our field and I'm not sure 805 00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:23,300 it's always useful. The first is that there is not 806 00:41:23,300 --> 00:41:27,200 going to be one phrase because we don't all speak the same 807 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,900 language. Like even if we All decided 808 00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:31,800 carbon removal is the one guess what? 809 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,700 It doesn't mean anything in Mandarin or Portuguese. 810 00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:37,800 So, you know, get over ourselves, North American white, 811 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,200 people speaking English. There's a whole big world out 812 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,200 there and they don't all speak English so we're not going to 813 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,900 find the right phrase. We don't need the right phrase. 814 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,000 Reminder nature loves diversity, but the second thing I remind 815 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,400 myself is to check. What has the language done to my 816 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,300 understanding over time? I first learned about climate 817 00:41:55,300 --> 00:41:58,900 change also known as the greenhouse effect in 1989 living 818 00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:01,900 in. On a field trip to the Amazon it 819 00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:05,700 was called of8 of stuff. The greenhouse effect or fatal 820 00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:10,400 stuff, then it became global warming and then it became 821 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,400 climate change. It's probably a whole other 822 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,500 podcast to explore how and why that changed. 823 00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:21,400 But I really challenged us to think long and hard about how we 824 00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:25,600 understand the challenge, when we call it global warming versus 825 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:30,000 when we call it climate change and look for those Those Clues 826 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,300 from language or language lose as I call them because they give 827 00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:36,700 us a lot of information, not in an unequivocal way, but in a 828 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,300 useful way we've had that discussion. 829 00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:42,300 Internally Alessandra is definitely on team global 830 00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:45,300 warming. Other people have switched back 831 00:42:45,300 --> 00:42:48,800 and forth, I don't put words in her mouth, but yeah, we have a, 832 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,300 it's hard to find the correct way to describe complex effects 833 00:42:52,300 --> 00:42:54,500 like that. But having those discussions, I 834 00:42:54,500 --> 00:42:56,300 was reading the other day. That was saying that the most 835 00:42:56,300 --> 00:42:59,400 vibrant ecosystems are all where they messed up against Each 836 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,200 other, and I think that like we have strong opinions. 837 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,500 Obviously, if you listen to the podcast, you can probably guess 838 00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:09,000 some of our leanings. But we're friends with lots of 839 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,900 people who disagree with us and read a lot of things that people 840 00:43:12,100 --> 00:43:14,000 don't. And I think we're all better for 841 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,400 that rather than having to sort of, like, static approach, which 842 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,600 the worst crime of all, is that of being boring, right? 843 00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:23,700 So I agree with you. Yeah. 844 00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:26,400 Nature favors that a verse and you should do the same thing, 845 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,400 ideologically and in your space when you're thinking about How 846 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,700 to think about climate and what to do about it? 847 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,700 You say, that's a fair fair thing to say, yeah, I would. 848 00:43:36,700 --> 00:43:39,000 Absolutely. And the only line I would draw 849 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,400 is recognizing where something really isn't. 850 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,700 Okay. Yeah, that's where I think we're 851 00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:46,300 in an interesting space, including in the global warming 852 00:43:46,300 --> 00:43:49,500 climate change greenhouse effect space, where we need to be 853 00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:53,400 really honest and open to recognizing, even genuinely, 854 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,000 uncomfortable, truths and ask ourselves, tough questions, and 855 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,100 come up with the most honest answers because the The truth is 856 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,700 climate change has always been happening, it's anthropogenic 857 00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:06,600 climate change. That is part of the problem, 858 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:07,600 right? The climate has always been 859 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,300 changing and that's okay. And, you know, if we kind of 860 00:44:11,308 --> 00:44:13,400 think about what was the first climate change. 861 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,500 Well, is when this wonderful chemical reaction, 862 00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:18,000 photosynthesis occurred that changed the climate in a 863 00:44:18,008 --> 00:44:20,800 dramatic way and then you kind of go back and there was a great 864 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,700 oxidation event which killed off the majority of life on Earth 865 00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:28,200 and all of these climate changes are things that are beyond our 866 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,100 control. But now Now we're having this 867 00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:34,000 Global awakening us being humans that we are causing it. 868 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,500 And now that we have this recognition, it's kind of this 869 00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:39,100 Collective conversation, we're all having well what do we do 870 00:44:39,100 --> 00:44:41,000 about it? And there's no one right 871 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,900 solution, it's kind of, yes and yes, and all of the above let's 872 00:44:44,900 --> 00:44:48,800 move as quickly as possible. That said, we certainly have our 873 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,500 biases about easier ways to cooperate, and they can make 874 00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:54,500 things happen. And obviously, there are, there 875 00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:57,400 should be a line. This came up on the podcast that 876 00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,100 John elkington to rehearse iCarly. 877 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,800 Phones approach where you're trying to show them a better way 878 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,500 of doing things. These big corporations, you 879 00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:06,000 don't necessarily want to be harming the planning's like, 880 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,700 well, yes, but you can't just give them a free pass. 881 00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:12,300 Sometimes you also need to be ready to criticize even publicly 882 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,600 and like being open to other ideas or having a diverse set of 883 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,800 ideas does not mean that you give everyone a free pass. 884 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,300 You shouldn't be. Yeah. 885 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,500 So open-minded your brain falls out as the old ezekiel's. 886 00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:29,000 A joke goes but uh yeah, we should do another one of these 887 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,400 Because there's literally too much content. 888 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,300 It's bursting out of the seems there's a brains are falling 889 00:45:34,300 --> 00:45:38,400 out. No, it's being hemmed in and I 890 00:45:38,408 --> 00:45:40,200 was trying to do a little knitting knitting, I got? 891 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,600 Yeah, I couldn't. I don't know the line, I'll get 892 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,700 you guys, moving and spinning, and then you'll be able to go 893 00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:47,000 there really easily. It's just Rife with metaphors 894 00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:50,000 will be that the tech company with a knitting room, Gandhi had 895 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,400 all these people spend every day. 896 00:45:51,700 --> 00:45:54,600 Every day that's amazing how well this this has been a lot of 897 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,000 fun. I look forward to the next time 898 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,900 we have you back on and to all the collaborations Between Nori 899 00:45:59,900 --> 00:46:01,600 and volens and the broader community. 900 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,800 That wants to reverse climate change. 901 00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:05,500 It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much guys. 902 00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:06,100 Thank you.